The Incomparable

26: Hitler Was a Rules Lawyer


  the integral test episode 26 or have you [TS]

  led 2011 [TS]

  welcome back to the incomparable podcast [TS]

  i am your host Daniel Moore and sitting [TS]

  in for Jason's now who is and espana [TS]

  joining me on today's session which is [TS]

  going to be about role-playing games we [TS]

  have quite a colorful cast of characters [TS]

  returning to the incomparable mr. Scott [TS]

  McNulty sorry Scott I'm wielding my plus [TS]

  one wit at anybody no sorry I I you [TS]

  gotta forfeit back on that one who all [TS]

  right i also returning to the podcast [TS]

  from his debut appearance on our video [TS]

  game episode Tony simple are Tony hi [TS]

  it's nice to be here [TS]

  I think we made a strict no sound [TS]

  effects rule I I was not breached if and [TS]

  for his debut appearance on our on our [TS]

  podcast mr. Jason Tasi are you doing [TS]

  Jason I'm okay i didn't realize that [TS]

  should cover the role-playing joke sorry [TS]

  I could call you [TS]

  gamemaster Jason tossing that makes me [TS]

  feel a little better because otherwise i [TS]

  was going to make some lame joke about [TS]

  failing my mission role for coming with [TS]

  jokes or something i'm still working [TS]

  over here okay if you let that one let [TS]

  that once summer yeah fur go lightweight [TS]

  so yeah today we can talk about [TS]

  role-playing games not not the video [TS]

  game variety but the classic tabletop [TS]

  dice pen-and-paper hardcover books the [TS]

  smell of sweat and fear that that kind [TS]

  of good stuff and so I thought we just [TS]

  start off by talking a little bit about [TS]

  how we got into role-playing games and [TS]

  you know when we started that kind of [TS]

  thing about what kind of games we [TS]

  started playing so Jason how do you how [TS]

  do you start by rolling it uh whom let's [TS]

  say well as well maybe 11 years old I [TS]

  think I went to school this guy named [TS]

  chris who said to me one day [TS]

  would you like to try Dungeons and [TS]

  Dragons it was advanced of course the [TS]

  second edition and I I i don't know that [TS]

  i've never actually even heard of it at [TS]

  that point but it certainly read about [TS]

  dragons and had yeah you know a [TS]

  favorable interpretation of of dragons [TS]

  and so figured okay let's try this [TS]

  we started with the classic you wake up [TS]

  in a field motif and [TS]

  I just kind of went on from there so if [TS]

  I said you are in a tavern right now you [TS]

  would have immediately you would feel it [TS]

  all rush back to absolutely i am in the [TS]

  first chapter of dragons of autumn [TS]

  Twilight right now I don't know what [TS]

  that is [TS]

  I'm sorry that I do it's got how about [TS]

  you i was in fifth grade so don't hold [TS]

  you are when you're in fifth grade I was [TS]

  probably 20 because I'm that what [TS]

  however whatever the appropriate Ages [TS]

  when you're 50 in fifth grade is what I [TS]

  was my friend Kevin who actually was [TS]

  kind of a friend of a friend who was in [TS]

  high school I was like hey you want to [TS]

  play Dungeons and Dragons and he it was [TS]

  not advanced dungeons and dragons know [TS]

  it was first edition Dungeons and [TS]

  Dragons know who and now i'm not [TS]

  actually that all they could have been [TS]

  second edition but my friend Kevin Spain [TS]

  ungodly amount of money to buy all the [TS]

  first edition books because he thought [TS]

  that was the one true edition of [TS]

  Dungeons and Dragons that is definitely [TS]

  something we will get back to wait [TS]

  around like that i can guarantee that [TS]

  so yeah that that is my first experience [TS]

  was and we buy played with that group of [TS]

  people probably for maybe eight years [TS]

  i'm tony how about you [TS]

  I think they're pretty similar story to [TS]

  both of you I think I started playing in [TS]

  junior high school I think I [TS]

  specifically i don't think i played any [TS]

  role playing games before our junior [TS]

  high school today uh no I know it was [TS]

  officially dnd or a role-playing game [TS]

  club and i joined that and i believe i [TS]

  actually played it my first game was run [TS]

  by Jason spread Chris if i remember [TS]

  correctly he was basically rounded up to [TS]

  run a game for like all the new like [TS]

  young kids that wandered in its rightful [TS]

  disc in the interest of full disclosure [TS]

  I will say that but Tony and Jason and I [TS]

  all attended the same junior high school [TS]

  and high school so we have probably have [TS]

  a lot of the same experiences with with [TS]

  much for playing there you go [TS]

  as for me which is I think a pretty [TS]

  similar story for you guys I think the [TS]

  first time I've remember playing was in [TS]

  actually a summer camp we have a camp [TS]

  where I grew up that had like you let [TS]

  you pick all your sort of it was kind of [TS]

  like a little bit like a college setup [TS]

  was like you pick classes and take them [TS]

  like it was like woodworking or archery [TS]

  or creative writing or something about [TS]

  dungeons dragons and one of those [TS]

  dungeons dragons and so I I remember [TS]

  starting out on that I oh I think we [TS]

  were not in the advanced group advanced [TS]

  dungeons dragons group i was remedial [TS]

  dungeon have to work your way up to it [TS]

  well it was funny because there were two [TS]

  groups the men at the same time and this [TS]

  in the same room which is just let me [TS]

  know classroom at the junior high school [TS]

  across town and I remember that the [TS]

  other group was the ad group because [TS]

  they have the fancy books and everything [TS]

  and we were just using the like sort of [TS]

  basic Dungeons and Dragons thing and i [TS]

  eventually been acquired like there's a [TS]

  box set like this black box that came [TS]

  with like a DM screen and like the basic [TS]

  rules set of dice and some little like [TS]

  cardboard miniature type things and had [TS]

  like a basic adventure but it was really [TS]

  like it was the basic rules where they [TS]

  were like like five classes or something [TS]

  you know like magic user fighter thief [TS]

  wizard and like that are multiples are [TS]

  just magic user cleric something like [TS]

  that and then they're like three races [TS]

  like it was really bare bones and I [TS]

  convinced several of my cousins to play [TS]

  with me on vacation when you're because [TS]

  one of them was actually an avid DVD [TS]

  player DVD put CD player in his own if [TS]

  you're related to a DVD player there he [TS]

  was ahead of his time to think that 1999 [TS]

  or something and yet now obsolete [TS]

  yeah well here he had been playing for [TS]

  many years and in fact he still plays [TS]

  regularly and playing the same group [TS]

  like 20 years on and off [TS]

  I'll so I and i'm writing assuming that [TS]

  we pretty much all started by playing [TS]

  D&D right i think so I think so Terry I [TS]

  remember I remember sitting in a junior [TS]

  high school cafeteria like having a roll [TS]

  dice to make a character and thinking [TS]

  that this took a long time I think life [TS]

  my first character was a thief and I [TS]

  believe he had like six hit points calm [TS]

  and I believe he died in that first [TS]

  campaign [TS]

  I think this was back when it was more [TS]

  acceptable to like murder characters and [TS]

  beggins way it's not acceptable to [TS]

  murder characters and it's it's slightly [TS]

  you know I mean I think you there are [TS]

  places where it's not culturally [TS]

  acceptable [TS]

  I mean I know you're from Philadelphia [TS]

  so it only murder each other so you guys [TS]

  also all been Mike Dungeon Master's to [TS]

  have you run games as of recently yes [TS]

  yeah as a last weekend maybe I think I [TS]

  think yeah but not not as a dungeon [TS]

  master Dan was very was very careful to [TS]

  refer to me as a gamemaster have [TS]

  ventured beyond the dungeon careful [TS]

  there are dragons out there were you not [TS]

  playing Dungeons and Dragons and we were [TS]

  not actually but i don't know i don't [TS]

  know that if that now like it's okay [TS]

  that's fair i think i recused myself [TS]

  from that i know i watched you want to [TS]

  open up this 2828 to a game mastering [TS]

  perspective Scott have you run if you're [TS]

  in the game as well I i have been a [TS]

  dungeon master a game master and a [TS]

  storyteller [TS]

  oh that sounds that sounds almost [TS]

  lyrical yeah and so that's that sort of [TS]

  next question I want to ask which was [TS]

  that you're beyond sort of dungeons [TS]

  dragons which of course is it has a has [TS]

  a reputation is or the seminal role [TS]

  playing game what are the other kinds of [TS]

  I mean there are lots of there are lots [TS]

  of RPGs and I think probably a lot of [TS]

  the people listening to this podcast are [TS]

  probably familiar with dungeons and [TS]

  dragons but they may not be as familiar [TS]

  with without the short game so it just [TS]

  kind of curious what other what other [TS]

  RPG systems or worlds have you guys have [TS]

  you got played my list may be pretty [TS]

  much the same as Jason list except Jason [TS]

  ran those games so I have you know I [TS]

  played Dungeons and Dragons i have [TS]

  played dead lands which is a week the [TS]

  game set in the weird west which is a [TS]

  pretty cool theme is it return to castle [TS]

  containers just castle pockets team just [TS]

  can't walk [TS]

  ok to return return to castle [TS]

  wolfenstein as the castle to which you [TS]

  return [TS]

  Castle Frankenstein which is a really [TS]

  cool kind of steampunk steampunk ask [TS]

  victorian-era game and I played a couple [TS]

  i will call them unfortunate games of [TS]

  vampire the masquerade and those can be [TS]

  unfortunate they were there was I think [TS]

  I think there was just there was a bad [TS]

  mix of players and game masters in those [TS]

  settings and I've also played a good [TS]

  deal of the game in nomine so that's me [TS]

  Scott how about you uh I have played a [TS]

  all the flavors of DMD so all the [TS]

  additions i played marvel superheroes [TS]

  earth Dom don't know if anyone ever [TS]

  rooms with that is um I do that shit or [TS]

  shame in that four hits the top well [TS]

  because i have it on my shelf and I've [TS]

  never run it [TS]

  uh-huh it was please continue to go it's [TS]

  not really worth playing [TS]

  I'm all right good to know I was played [TS]

  I have played the lord of the ring one [TS]

  of the Lord of the Rings games I don't [TS]

  know which one [TS]

  paranoia which is a great thing is no [TS]

  Star Trek and Star Wars and Star Wars [TS]

  game oh yes I wish it didn't like [TS]

  because I hate stop [TS]

  wow I just have to say that because it [TS]

  makes dance so angry i always forget [TS]

  when you're on his blood guests and I [TS]

  want to keep walking he's got and a [TS]

  bunch of other than 0 and a lot of the [TS]

  palladium stuff so I love riffs like [TS]

  rips played this here is a limited I [TS]

  don't know I've never played the play of [TS]

  a fantasy game but and that and there [TS]

  are some others random stuff i played [TS]

  Jason you know I Scott and Tony actually [TS]

  covered a lot of the ones that i would [TS]

  have mentioned i don't i don't know what [TS]

  you call it [TS]

  let's say a phase where I after being [TS]

  introduced to dnd where were Chris [TS]

  Rainey game and then actually i remember [TS]

  playing in the damn ram back in seventh [TS]

  or eighth grade or so and then another [TS]

  friend of our started running game some [TS]

  of the palladium games like I remember [TS]

  we played our heroes unlimited I have a [TS]

  vague feeling we might have played some [TS]

  news and super spies around that time [TS]

  and run around and it is was my face of [TS]

  of wanting to create games too so i made [TS]

  a bunch of basic likes DNT care [TS]

  if knockoff system type games for comic [TS]

  books that i really enjoyed so we played [TS]

  that kind of thing for a while and after [TS]

  a while of trying to work on this what [TS]

  was what was to be my game masterpiece [TS]

  my own original fantasy world that was [TS]

  just this intricately piece together [TS]

  entire system and world i was showing it [TS]

  to a friend of my John who had played [TS]

  many more games that i had and jon said [TS]

  well does it doesn't have to look just [TS]

  like dnd and I was sort of feeling like [TS]

  what what what else would it look like [TS]

  i've never seen her role playing game [TS]

  and so he pulled me over to a friends [TS]

  place and we played a game of castleball [TS]

  can stand where you know there's no dice [TS]

  you're using cards for everything and it [TS]

  was just so far from anything I've ever [TS]

  seen before that this this brought me [TS]

  into my next phase of let me play things [TS]

  that are even nothing like D&D [TS]

  whatsoever and so I'm not even throwing [TS]

  something in their life which I know [TS]

  that that I played with put some of your [TS]

  well the extraordinary adventures of [TS]

  baron munchausen which is it's more of a [TS]

  storytelling game that a role-playing [TS]

  game but i kinda I kind of think of it [TS]

  in the same category in some ways not [TS]

  just a great syndrome a great game [TS]

  indeed i've been running a nominee [TS]

  lately after i had had not been playing [TS]

  role playing games for years and then I [TS]

  did this this 400-page dissertation on [TS]

  geek culture for my PhD and when I was [TS]

  done with that I was like oh man you [TS]

  know what I really want to do I want to [TS]

  do something really geeky that it's not [TS]

  for work and and so that's a game about [TS]

  angels and demons and i have a bunch of [TS]

  other stuff just kind of sitting on my [TS]

  shelf that I've been like thinking like [TS]

  all run that sometime and I just never [TS]

  have like I've got the complete rules to [TS]

  eclipse phase and Trinity which is a [TS]

  done a couple of science fiction games [TS]

  continuum which is a time-travel game [TS]

  and just a bunch of other stuff too [TS]

  I think I played trinity is that is that [TS]

  was that a white wolf for now it is [TS]

  always a white wolf science fiction game [TS]

  in which everyone basically with some [TS]

  theme of psychic and it comes in with [TS]

  the book is like a binder with a weird [TS]

  plastic cover thing gets not my favorite [TS]

  physical for Maddox I I think there's [TS]

  also a paperback which i kinda like [TS]

  better [TS]

  I'm did you guys play a role playing [TS]

  games like straight through or did you [TS]

  guys take over [TS]

  I know Jason Jason you and I i think [TS]

  both were in a similar experience where [TS]

  we played a lot in sort of junior high [TS]

  school maybe early on in high school and [TS]

  then maybe more sporadically after that [TS]

  and then I feel like after college we [TS]

  probably didn't play for a really long [TS]

  time I mean I definitely got out of D&D [TS]

  fairly early on and it wasn't until the [TS]

  the most recent the fourth edition came [TS]

  out that I sort of got back into it [TS]

  did you guys have the same experience of [TS]

  like like sort of us moving away from [TS]

  from opening games where you guys been [TS]

  praying with playing them pretty much [TS]

  consistently since you're introduced [TS]

  well I guess I already answered that so [TS]

  i'll just add one little addendum to it [TS]

  which is that I i gotta make like to [TS]

  mention that in the period at the peak [TS]

  of my second phase of let's play [TS]

  whatever I can get my hands on phase i [TS]

  mean like i was like going to to gaming [TS]

  conventions by myself to like enter [TS]

  role-playing game competitions and meet [TS]

  strangers and stuff like that that was a [TS]

  very mixed bag as an experience where [TS]

  sometimes you get you play games like I [TS]

  went to this convention called a region [TS]

  which is a local Boston sci-fi [TS]

  convention and I'm the people who ran [TS]

  the Steve Jackson games booth there ran [TS]

  this really awesome game of tune which [TS]

  is a very much like a loony toon style [TS]

  role-playing game and and also a sort of [TS]

  killed dr. lucky larp which i think i [TS]

  think it will be only large I've ever [TS]

  participated in and was really really [TS]

  excellent and so that made me feel like [TS]

  all this is what i need to do i need to [TS]

  go to these kind of conventions and meet [TS]

  people [TS]

  let's just say that the rest of that [TS]

  year didn't really go as well when I [TS]

  kept doing it until I realized maybe I [TS]

  don't want to be playing a roleplaying [TS]

  games that much after all and then I [TS]

  just quit for years and it was only very [TS]

  recently that I decided maybe I kind of [TS]

  Miss that hobby but I just need to ease [TS]

  myself into this with people i already [TS]

  know and get along with very well what [TS]

  you guys got [TS]

  well I I'd played steadily through high [TS]

  school and then I went to college and I [TS]

  played maybe a couple times in college I [TS]

  knew a lot of people who played D&D in [TS]

  college but I never really wanted to [TS]

  play with them and then they invited me [TS]

  to a party which i thought was a party [TS]

  but it was activated the other kind of [TS]

  party is it was a LARPing party and who [TS]

  the bad guy is that everyone was pretty [TS]

  vampires and I was like this is really [TS]

  weird so I pretended to be a vampire for [TS]

  a little while and then I decided that I [TS]

  would be a vampire who was bored with [TS]

  the party and leave and they didn't like [TS]

  that then i moved back home to me i'm [TS]

  originally from New York and so i went [TS]

  to new york and then after a while I [TS]

  moved to Philadelphia and I didn't know [TS]

  anybody really so I was like I need to [TS]

  meet somebody so I met a bunch of people [TS]

  who play D&D so I started playing DMV [TS]

  because i was kind of burnt out on dnd [TS]

  and I've been playing with that group [TS]

  for like six years now so [TS]

  mhm it's worked out well apparently [TS]

  County High oh yeah I mean I think it's [TS]

  a toaster cycles i think a big part of [TS]

  it is who you know who are your friends [TS]

  that are you know around you especially [TS]

  since a lot of the role-playing you do [TS]

  is actually like in person [TS]

  I'm it's not something you do over the [TS]

  web like video games so people being [TS]

  around who want to play a game and [TS]

  particularly people who want to run a [TS]

  game since that seems to take a huge [TS]

  amount of work on the part of you know [TS]

  some sucker and you know that the [TS]

  availability of said sucker tends to you [TS]

  know to oscillate so it comes and goes [TS]

  I'm not I I mean I enjoy role-playing [TS]

  games but i'm not super motivated to [TS]

  probably go out and play them with [TS]

  people i don't know what i end up [TS]

  playing a lot of role-playing game Simon [TS]

  you know three different campaigns right [TS]

  now but to me it's you know it's the [TS]

  role playing games are fun and there's [TS]

  something I want to do with with people [TS]

  i know or at least friends of friends [TS]

  but I wouldn't be like you know I've [TS]

  never felt like I want to play Dungeons [TS]

  and Dragons so much that I'm gonna go [TS]

  find people and play dungeons dragons [TS]

  with them [TS]

  yeah i mean it strikes me as very much a [TS]

  social kind of like activity you know [TS]

  for some people like might have a poker [TS]

  night or something like that [TS]

  and let's be fair I'm I don't really [TS]

  care for people that much i think most [TS]

  people who play the ND don't care for [TS]

  people that have maybe an [TS]

  overgeneralization but I'm gonna stick [TS]

  by that the level of Arc's Sarah [TS]

  experiment up tony touch on interesting [TS]

  point which i think is the idea of you [TS]

  know most role-playing games beings for [TS]

  physical and in person but there's also [TS]

  i feel like an expanding amount of [TS]

  people playing role playing games [TS]

  virtually because say though you know [TS]

  they may not be geographically close to [TS]

  the people that they are used to playing [TS]

  with and so for example i'm running a [TS]

  group right now which tony is actually [TS]

  in uh-huh [TS]

  that is done over skype and uses a video [TS]

  game system [TS]

  alright i'm sorry it's just a a sort of [TS]

  shared application in which we can see [TS]

  like a map and move little tokens around [TS]

  and have an adventure even though two of [TS]

  our party members live in Texas one [TS]

  lives in Connecticut I was Antonio [TS]

  Island Massachusetts and so its end it's [TS]

  it's very it's a very different [TS]

  experience I've found and in some ways a [TS]

  lot harder and some of it helps that [TS]

  already start it part of the part of the [TS]

  problem is that some of our people are [TS]

  also very new and they have never played [TS]

  D&D before and so as a result it feels [TS]

  like a lot of our our games turn into [TS]

  almost a video game type thing where you [TS]

  know it's if you become kind of [TS]

  disconnected because you're just moving [TS]

  a little token around and so if there's [TS]

  a lot of clicking and everything and and [TS]

  less of the whole plan it suffers from a [TS]

  lot of this and basically the same kind [TS]

  of issues of you know being in a MTG vs [TS]

  attending like a virtual meeting or mmm [TS]

  yeah I mean I teleconference you know [TS]

  it's a DNA webinar it is basically it's [TS]

  basically a dnd weapon it that sounds [TS]

  way it sounded way less cool when you [TS]

  put it that way I had no idea that this [TS]

  act of the software we use map tool [TS]

  which is is that open source to him [TS]

  yes it's actually pretty pretty well put [TS]

  together [TS]

  I'm pretty impressed with it I have to [TS]

  imagine that kind of thing would lend [TS]

  itself to some role-playing games better [TS]

  than others because we talk about a [TS]

  pretty broad range of I mean the fact [TS]

  that was talking about about the [TS]

  adventures of baron munchausen over here [TS]

  is as something that by my classifieds [TS]

  there's a role-playing game you're [TS]

  really you're sitting around the circle [TS]

  and you're just telling stories and [TS]

  abetting each other that like I can make [TS]

  a story better and that's it that's very [TS]

  different from i'm going to move tokens [TS]

  around the board now and can strategize [TS]

  about how to you know attack these [TS]

  enemies and so on and so forth [TS]

  well it and it feels more like almost [TS]

  more like a war game type thing or a [TS]

  strategy game and I think that that's in [TS]

  some ways that's a shame because i [TS]

  really enjoy the interactions of the [TS]

  role-playing environment and it's hard [TS]

  to coax people who are new to the idea [TS]

  of role-playing into wanting to do that [TS]

  when there isn't when you don't have all [TS]

  those visual cues and so I think a lot [TS]

  of our are newer players have been more [TS]

  hesitant to get into the whole you know [TS]

  really putting yourself in a character [TS]

  because of the the disconnect and it [TS]

  takes a while for people to get used to [TS]

  it i mean the campaign i'm running has [TS]

  five players in it and three of them had [TS]

  never played a role playing game before [TS]

  so they they come they bring to a [TS]

  different expectation then say the other [TS]

  two players who are you know super super [TS]

  hardcore nerds about it [TS]

  well that I mean and that's it's always [TS]

  interesting to have a mix of people like [TS]

  that but it definitely provides a [TS]

  different sort of experience especially [TS]

  when you've got a large number of people [TS]

  who are really really comfortable and [TS]

  always wanna roll roll dice speaking [TS]

  which I was thinking that there i think [TS]

  one interesting thing and it's something [TS]

  I appreciate about one of the most [TS]

  recent versions of the dnd revamp in the [TS]

  dungeon master's guide there's a whole [TS]

  section on different types of players [TS]

  without which I found fascinating [TS]

  because you it's it's pretty good it's [TS]

  pretty good you start going through and [TS]

  you're like yup got one of those got one [TS]

  of those get an end i'm kind of curious [TS]

  you guys run into the same sort of like [TS]

  I mean this the terms things like people [TS]

  like rules lawyers and you know the [TS]

  weekend called munchkins or more more [TS]

  polite things I guess people who get [TS]

  bored unless they're they're cracking [TS]

  heads [TS]

  I mean do you guys in your experience of [TS]

  role-playing like having played with [TS]

  different groups and different people [TS]

  like find that you encountered similar [TS]

  you know styles of play very frequently [TS]

  or is it really much more desperate than [TS]

  that or what Jason have you run a bunch [TS]

  of different games [TS]

  yeah it is funny because you asked about [TS]

  this [TS]

  and Martin have a sort of two parallel [TS]

  responses one is remember i said before [TS]

  that I got back into this hobby because [TS]

  i wanted to do something that felt sort [TS]

  of geeky and fun that I didn't have to [TS]

  feel like I'm doing this is a sort of [TS]

  dimension of cultural analysis and so [TS]

  and and and so I I don't think I mean [TS]

  how do i phrase this i guess i have not [TS]

  really looked at the people i played [TS]

  with in that way especially considering [TS]

  that some of the games I play been you [TS]

  know all these are my friends and so [TS]

  it's much easier to think of it is [TS]

  oh and this is how damn place is not [TS]

  only place but by the same token I don't [TS]

  know if you if you if any of you ever [TS]

  listen to any kind of like nerdcore [TS]

  popper keep music anything like that but [TS]

  I listen to this one podcast on radio [TS]

  free hipster which comes from my hipster [TS]

  please dot com and I'm recently the guy [TS]

  who put that who put that together put [TS]

  together a compilation called 20-sided [TS]

  rhymes which is just 20 tracks about [TS]

  role-playing games basically and it's [TS]

  pretty fun i've been listening to it on [TS]

  the way to work and and there's all [TS]

  these you know like rap songs with [TS]

  lyrics about you know the ridiculous [TS]

  things that players will do and even [TS]

  though I haven't really been paying [TS]

  attention and feeling like oh yeah I'm [TS]

  categorizing these people this time once [TS]

  again here's the this you know the rules [TS]

  are here and so on and so forth [TS]

  I'm listening to the lyrics to the songs [TS]

  only oh my god I totally know what [TS]

  you're talking about here so there's [TS]

  definitely sort of like archetypes of [TS]

  players are shared kind of experiences [TS]

  like oh you played with that guy that I [TS]

  guess I didn't really notice until it [TS]

  was pointed out to me in lyrical first [TS]

  you often don't realize things until [TS]

  they've been sung to you like that [TS]

  I mean it you know there's the classic [TS]

  is it it's the dr. Demento sketch right [TS]

  about the dnd with the you know where [TS]

  the cheeto you know like it's very [TS]

  stereotypical and yet they're there is a [TS]

  certain amount of truth in parts of it [TS]

  and I think that's part of what makes it [TS]

  funny but it does seem like like certain [TS]

  elements of that crop up a lot sort of [TS]

  related to that I i think you know we [TS]

  all started out in high school and [TS]

  obviously high school is very traumatic [TS]

  place for many people huh maybe [TS]

  including or including and/or especially [TS]

  for you know maybe people who play a [TS]

  role playing games but I am curious to [TS]

  know if that's shifted in terms of like [TS]

  you know I think many of us have [TS]

  experienced a stigma attached to it has [TS]

  that diminished and I I don't know if [TS]

  we've gotten to the point where Diaz is [TS]

  cool but it's not it's ironically i [TS]

  don't even think it's ironic i mean you [TS]

  can be ironic playing it you can't let [TS]

  you know it's funny actually I mention [TS]

  I'd so i mentioned before I'm kind of [TS]

  just joking around and said I feel like [TS]

  I'm a dragons of autumn Twilight right [TS]

  now that is the first book of the [TS]

  dragonlance travel one of the Dragons [TS]

  trilogies I guess I don't know [TS]

  and the reason I bring this up is [TS]

  because while i was doing my [TS]

  dissertation research was absolutely [TS]

  fascinated to see that newbury comics [TS]

  which is a local you know music / [TS]

  chachki / pop-culture merchandise chain [TS]

  that we have around here in the Boston [TS]

  area was selling among its you know it's [TS]

  t-shirts for local sports teams and for [TS]

  you know ya hit movies and hip and stuff [TS]

  like that [TS]

  a t-shirt that just had the cover of the [TS]

  dragonlance rulebook and i'm looking at [TS]

  this little piggy who is this for her [TS]

  act like i never right into that to some [TS]

  extent i still don't know i think that [TS]

  there's there's that somebody else [TS]

  should talk about this you're going to [TS]

  be talking about my dissertation if you [TS]

  let me talk too long [TS]

  everyone jump in and save us from the [TS]

  terrible fate of you let you know we're [TS]

  just going to edit that out you never [TS]

  ask that question then so don't words [TS]

  which is it will fix all this in post [TS]

  Jason please [TS]

  yeah well i think that i think certainly [TS]

  you know that you know geek culture and [TS]

  and general nerdery is more acceptable [TS]

  now but i think that they're still [TS]

  probably I'm not in high school now so [TS]

  that's good but i also went to a super [TS]

  geeky high school so I was surrounded by [TS]

  giant nerds all everyone was a nerd so [TS]

  it wasn't and then the people who were [TS]

  in what was called the simulated games [TS]

  club because that's how nerdy are high [TS]

  school was that I would like the top [TS]

  not when I say top nerves that makes it [TS]

  sound like we were running the place but [TS]

  we were like the nerdiest of the Nerds [TS]

  you have like the Crandall exactly but [TS]

  not the good so I think there's just [TS]

  something people don't really get [TS]

  that you go and sit around a table and [TS]

  pretend to be an elf and roll dice and [TS]

  things happen and but you're all [TS]

  imagining it's like a shared story and I [TS]

  think people still think that's very [TS]

  strange [TS]

  I think that's got actually hits the [TS]

  nail on the head is and i said i was [TS]

  going to talk about my dissertation but [TS]

  I lied to you what it really comes down [TS]

  to is where you divide the line between [TS]

  reality and fantasy and and and that [TS]

  there's still that stereotype of people [TS]

  who play a role playing games don't know [TS]

  where to divide that line and I think [TS]

  that we see a little bit more of people [TS]

  feeling like I can come out of out of [TS]

  the out of the shadows and admit a [TS]

  little bit that this is what I'm doing [TS]

  in part because there's a little bit of [TS]

  like sort of spillover acceptance of [TS]

  things like world of warcraft in public [TS]

  assistance spillover acceptance of [TS]

  images video games in general what you [TS]

  get people saying well i'm not even sure [TS]

  that counts as nerdy anymore and so [TS]

  forth to get people admitting to it but [TS]

  they're still very much still a major [TS]

  hierarchy among a gate geeks and gamers [TS]

  and so on and so forth when you go and [TS]

  you talked to like it like a DVD player [TS]

  and you're just like so do you think [TS]

  this is this is a geeky thing though you [TS]

  know nine out of ten will tell you [TS]

  yeah but at least a large I don't you [TS]

  live action role playing and then you're [TS]

  going to talk to a larper and they're [TS]

  like yeah but at least I don't dress up [TS]

  like a furry I mean I don't have to [TS]

  dress up like an animal and then you [TS]

  talk to the people who are the furries [TS]

  and they say yeah well let's bring this [TS]

  back to the LARPers actually but I mean [TS]

  what's interesting about that is that I [TS]

  feel like there has been some it is made [TS]

  its forays into the mainstream for [TS]

  example and was just there was two weeks [TS]

  ago there was an episode of the NBC [TS]

  primetime sitcom community that was [TS]

  entirely about dungeons and dragons in [TS]

  which all the characters end up playing [TS]

  this game of Dungeons and Dragons which [TS]

  I mean kind of blew me away in the sense [TS]

  that if anyone would let somebody make a [TS]

  half an hour behind I'm show about [TS]

  people playing D&D but it was kind of [TS]

  nice to like to the you know they're [TS]

  there it was fairly accurate every [TS]

  public accurate [TS]

  yeah i mean and i think that's that's [TS]

  fascinating to me that that I think you [TS]

  know if we anybody remembers I mean when [TS]

  we were growing up and we're [TS]

  all around the same age we were growing [TS]

  up there was a not just a stigma in [TS]

  terms of not being cool but there is a [TS]

  stigma in terms of this being like like [TS]

  an evil thing to do without that writers [TS]

  when my mother told my aunt that i was [TS]

  playing dungeons dragons like huh [TS]

  he's a devil worshiper in that they're [TS]

  here worshiping Satan he's not playing a [TS]

  game and my mother was like you're [TS]

  insane [TS]

  he is way too much of a nerd to worship [TS]

  Satan there's a whole movie i believe [TS]

  called cleverly mazes and mom yes i did [TS]

  in which Tom Hanks actually is in it and [TS]

  from the early eighties in which case [TS]

  it's about like kids who get a little [TS]

  too into their game of D&D and one of [TS]

  them like mercury sometimes but it's [TS]

  something I mean but this was this was [TS]

  not uncommon people actually did think [TS]

  that there was like a satanic element to [TS]

  it which is kind of hilarious if you've [TS]

  ever actually played D&D because nothing [TS]

  could be farther from the truth is still [TS]

  shows up on prime-time cop dramas and [TS]

  police procedurals and stuff I mean yeah [TS]

  every season you had get at least one or [TS]

  two shows that are like oh and one [TS]

  person took the game a little too [TS]

  seriously [TS]

  yeah bones comes to mind there's an [TS]

  episode on that about somebody who is [TS]

  into medieval weaponry poetry and cost [TS]

  playing who you know kill somebody for [TS]

  not appreciate it as much as him [TS]

  now that's not good i couldnĂ­t rattle [TS]

  off some more beauty editors this at [TS]

  least one every season I i find that [TS]

  kind of kind of fascinating that it is [TS]

  it still has the second half so many [TS]

  years but I feel like it the same way [TS]

  there's there are probably a lot of sort [TS]

  of closet I mean there are some [TS]

  cosplayers there are some non closet [TS]

  players i know Tony you're a big fan of [TS]

  Vin Diesel who is loco isn't again but I [TS]

  mean huge someone here I mean he gave a [TS]

  great interview of once about talking [TS]

  about his love of dnd yeah yeah he's [TS]

  down with it until I mean I think you [TS]

  got him I'm not gonna argue with them [TS]

  are you going to do with it [TS]

  no mr. diesel I would never argue with [TS]

  but it's interesting to see people like [TS]

  that you mean clearly that's a guy with [TS]

  a a very an image that it's a very macho [TS]

  image in many ways and yet he is very [TS]

  you know outwardly confident in talking [TS]

  about this as a hobby [TS]

  and I think I see you see some of the [TS]

  same thing Jason was talking about the [TS]

  bleed over from like World of Warcraft [TS]

  is which is pretty mainstream and they [TS]

  did a they didn't add series i believe [TS]

  with several like three or four [TS]

  celebrities who would each be talking [TS]

  about their characters including I think [TS]

  mr. t if i recall correctly replace it [TS]

  but I think it's really relevant to your [TS]

  mentioning celebrities here and I think [TS]

  that you need to get to a certain level [TS]

  of celebrity before you can admit to [TS]

  this level of kinkiness to some extent i [TS]

  mean like take samuel jackson samuel [TS]

  jackson is kind of an interesting [TS]

  example to just because there's all [TS]

  kinds of race stereotypes tied up in [TS]

  geeks and gaming and so on and so forth [TS]

  but look how long it took in his career [TS]

  of him making a name for himself before [TS]

  he got to take the kind of roles that he [TS]

  really wanted to take and suddenly i was [TS]

  playing a computer hacker in Jurassic [TS]

  Park it turns out he's a Jedi now you [TS]

  know I mean adjust his roles just got [TS]

  sort of nerdier a nerdier as he went [TS]

  along you know but it takes a while [TS]

  before you can get to that because [TS]

  you're gonna need to establish your [TS]

  Hollywood persona first and in terms of [TS]

  the mainstream medicine in terms of came [TS]

  back a little bit to the world of [TS]

  warcraft thing I mean I've never play [TS]

  World of Warcraft myself but I know I [TS]

  don't playing people who do and and [TS]

  oftentimes people who fall outside of [TS]

  the typical the stereotypes but I want [TS]

  to talk about one thing in particular [TS]

  which is the fourth edition of D&D which [TS]

  I think we've all played a little bit [TS]

  and which some people at which is both [TS]

  been praised and criticized within the [TS]

  you know the role-playing games fear for [TS]

  either being great because it opens up [TS]

  the the gaming aspect to lots of new [TS]

  players coming in from places like World [TS]

  of Warcraft and then of course there's [TS]

  always the negative push back in terms [TS]

  of people who claim that you know [TS]

  oh it dumps it down and and takes away [TS]

  all the good parts of it so i was [TS]

  curious to know if any of it from those [TS]

  who have played fourth edition and [TS]

  especially have also played previous [TS]

  editions like how are your feelings [TS]

  about that [TS]

  well i think i have an opinion that [TS]

  people won't agree with well so I'll go [TS]

  first [TS]

  I could already with you whenever you're [TS]

  going to say I agree yeah I mean I guess [TS]

  I mean obviously games have wildly [TS]

  different mechanics built into them and [TS]

  I mean I know a lot of people will talk [TS]

  about how great mechanic is a game or it [TS]

  how lame a mechanic is another game but [TS]

  to me I mean I don't feel like it's the [TS]

  social interactions and how the game is [TS]

  Ron and who the other players are the [TS]

  shapes the experience so much more than [TS]

  the mechanics and I mean the mechanics [TS]

  are still part of that but I don't know [TS]

  I especially given that a gamemaster can [TS]

  you know I think you can pick and choose [TS]

  how you want to do stuff right [TS]

  I think there's the there's the the [TS]

  tricky thing of looking at like your [TS]

  rule book or dungeon master's guide and [TS]

  being like this is how I have to do [TS]

  everything when really it's like this is [TS]

  a way that you could do stuff you should [TS]

  probably figure out what you want to [TS]

  actually and and I think there's also [TS]

  there's just there's there's a huge [TS]

  element of like nostalgia for the [TS]

  pastimes of D&D systems how you have the [TS]

  system suc- negative armor class [TS]

  come on you have to figure out you have [TS]

  to hit hired hit lower it make any sense [TS]

  if they can figure out a way to remove [TS]

  mass from Dungeons and Dragons i'm happy [TS]

  i'm like not anti mouth but it's just [TS]

  another thing i have to do while i'm [TS]

  running a game like doing math in my [TS]

  head i use it i have a piece of scrap [TS]

  paper now so I can do it easier [TS]

  well maybe I'll get a graphing [TS]

  calculator eventually but if they can [TS]

  invent invent dice too just like you [TS]

  roll it and you get like a smiley face [TS]

  or like a thumbs down [TS]

  I'm good and it's not like the old [TS]

  second edition a D&D books are going [TS]

  anywhere I mean there's still there [TS]

  there on your shelf you can probably [TS]

  find more to use bookstore and if you [TS]

  have all of them then I that's a lot of [TS]

  books remember maybe you want to read [TS]

  through them again you think it's like [TS]

  you can actually run that game if you [TS]

  were actually that kind of crazy a [TS]

  nostalgic creep but no I want to argue [TS]

  but I don't want to do is play Dungeons [TS]

  and Dragons second edition i want to [TS]

  argue about this dragon for that isn't [TS]

  on the internet I mean that's a valid [TS]

  hobby too i don't have been arguing on [TS]

  the internet is a time-honored cultural [TS]

  tradition that I the world or blossom [TS]

  honored [TS]

  disagree so i guess the consensus is the [TS]

  fourth edition is great is the best [TS]

  thing since sliced bread [TS]

  I i love it and anyone who disagrees is [TS]

  on the internet i mean i-i wouldn't jump [TS]

  into sailing all I think fourth editions [TS]

  a huge improvement but i will say that [TS]

  I've been I find it easier to play [TS]

  against it i mean it maybe you could say [TS]

  this dumb down it's more accessible [TS]

  it's easier to play let me put it this [TS]

  way if you were to say to me let's get [TS]

  together a second edition game you know [TS]

  for gags I would probably say I don't [TS]

  know about that but yeah keep me posted [TS]

  to keep me in the loop and then when the [TS]

  night comes I'm washing my hair but you [TS]

  know if if you say let's get together a [TS]

  fourth edition game i might just play [TS]

  just to have an excuse to hang out with [TS]

  my friends kinda like Tony saying you [TS]

  know but but wha [TS]

  but i will say that i do think actually [TS]

  that the mechanics of a game can make it [TS]

  a lot more interesting and that's one of [TS]

  the reasons why I'm not not really that [TS]

  interested in dnd anymore is that I like [TS]

  playing games where I feel like the [TS]

  central conceptual or thematic [TS]

  connection to what we're doing out of [TS]

  the game what we're doing in this story [TS]

  you know that's one thing I really loved [TS]

  about castle falken steam in this [TS]

  setting where you know dice were [TS]

  associated with criminals and vagabonds [TS]

  and so you would use playing cards [TS]

  instead each suit represented a certain [TS]

  type of action that you could take part [TS]

  and so there's always a sort of like [TS]

  wonderful unexpected moment where you'd [TS]

  be like oh you're in the situation you [TS]

  can't get out of what will you do [TS]

  and then someone will pull out the ace [TS]

  of spades and turn out to be a social [TS]

  master after all and i don't i don't [TS]

  know why that matters to me more than [TS]

  then being able to roll 20-sided dice I [TS]

  guess I just the dice installed you [TS]

  never really sunk in with me but but but [TS]

  you can buy a pound of dice and you can [TS]

  buy a pundit I i have bought a pound [TS]

  nice i highly recommend one of the best [TS]

  investments that made two out of the [TS]

  four of us up on Desperate so fifty [TS]

  percent of the uncomfortable pie gasps [TS]

  recommend you buy a pound of dice [TS]

  immediately it is like 15 bucks [TS]

  something and you will never buy dice [TS]

  again [TS]

  sure you would be a full not to buy a [TS]

  pound of us right now yeah a fool [TS]

  yeah go to amazon if you know I don't [TS]

  think there's any way i can profit off [TS]

  this but now are we getting Commission [TS]

  was gonna ask you a Jason the [TS]

  commissioners people's happiness that's [TS]

  right said ten percent of your happiness [TS]

  toss it back i'm in well I will sit out [TS]

  i will say that i have played every [TS]

  major version of Dungeons and Dragons [TS]

  and I would fourth edition is certainly [TS]

  the fastest and easiest to play I go out [TS]

  so my current game we're playing fourth [TS]

  edition and I'm actually running it and [TS]

  we can do like three or four encounters [TS]

  in the span of three hours and in [TS]

  previous editions you might have spent [TS]

  three hours getting ready to play one [TS]

  encounter because there are a lot of [TS]

  rules to go through that is that is a [TS]

  pretty mean that's that's sort of a [TS]

  tangible difference in in that amount [TS]

  you know one of the best parts of 4th [TS]

  edition may have just been like how [TS]

  crazy go nuts their marketing campaign [TS]

  was such that got like lots of people [TS]

  excited about it [TS]

  I mean Mike my campaign running right [TS]

  now really only exists because a bunch [TS]

  of people who've never played Dungeons [TS]

  and Dragons you know saw and sporting [TS]

  were like we should do this we should [TS]

  make this happen to it because they you [TS]

  know they put a ton of money into [TS]

  advertising it everywhere i thought i [TS]

  taw commercial for it on hulu watching [TS]

  that those are weird commercials they're [TS]

  weird commercials and I SAT there [TS]

  thinking like I saw that it starts in [TS]

  this sort of like drawn on graph paper [TS]

  look and I'm staring at it I'm going [TS]

  is this a commercial for D&D now I can't [TS]

  beat that be still it and then it keeps [TS]

  going like this is that's like I'm [TS]

  that's like a mind flayer is something [TS]

  that's all that sweet has brought money [TS]

  yeah I was gonna say this is going to be [TS]

  as well which is the coast thing because [TS]

  it came right on the tales of those [TS]

  magic the gathering commercials didn't [TS]

  it [TS]

  their magic the gathering comer y [TS]

  absolutely totally stopped watching TV [TS]

  at the wrong time here for the right [TS]

  time or the right I I vaguely remember [TS]

  some kind of you know audience testing [TS]

  commercial that involved her loom [TS]

  Minotaur [TS]

  wow that's a that's an entirely [TS]

  different podcast which I will not be on [TS]

  that [TS]

  you can't just walk away now after [TS]

  introducing me to magic i introduced to [TS]

  the magic like 18 years ago yeah well [TS]

  the stand has never left me God that [TS]

  number was way too high [TS]

  I i want to know also if you guys had [TS]

  any suggestions I think we have a lot of [TS]

  listeners who are who are definitely [TS]

  into you know things like science [TS]

  fiction movies and books and stuff like [TS]

  that but maybe fewer her interval [TS]

  playing and so I was kind of curious if [TS]

  you guys had any advice is quite the [TS]

  right word but like in enticement [TS]

  coaxing like anything that might get [TS]

  somebody who's kind of skeptical because [TS]

  i think i think you know most of us can [TS]

  agree that there's something fun about [TS]

  role-playing games and I'm kind of [TS]

  curious as to how you might sway [TS]

  somebody who is a little bit skeptical [TS]

  or just unsure about giving it a try [TS]

  I mean I think the trickiest thing about [TS]

  role-playing games you need a group [TS]

  that's kind of committed to meeting [TS]

  regularly so maybe but rather than like [TS]

  jumping right into trying to run a D&D [TS]

  campaign you play some kind of board [TS]

  game or something where it's it's kind [TS]

  of a little bit lower threshold in terms [TS]

  of a commitment we played briefly though [TS]

  that the actual Dungeons and Dragons [TS]

  castle ravenloft board game which you [TS]

  know I wasn't super impressed with but [TS]

  maybe that would be kind of a good segue [TS]

  into seeing what is this like I gateway [TS]

  drug the gateway drug yeah or even just [TS]

  a one-time one-shot role-playing [TS]

  adventure that yeah I think more than a [TS]

  meeting and they have the FB if you're [TS]

  crazy if you want if you're crazy if you [TS]

  want to do touches the dragon if you're [TS]

  its aid they came up with the the redbox [TS]

  right which is kind of like a beginner's [TS]

  dungeons and dragon has pre-rolled [TS]

  characters and including makers and has [TS]

  easier rules than even fourth edition so [TS]

  you can just pick that up if you're [TS]

  interested in in playing DD I mean the [TS]

  trick is finding other people who are [TS]

  also interested in playing rise the hard [TS]

  part [TS]

  I mean even if you wanted to jump to [TS]

  playing D&D campaign wizards of the [TS]

  coast has released the first campaign [TS]

  that they created for 4th edition keep [TS]

  on the Shadowfell you can download that [TS]

  is a free pdf there [TS]

  website I mean role-playing games are [TS]

  not super expensive as far as obvious go [TS]

  but you can you get into this for [TS]

  basically free if you want to try it out [TS]

  before sinking your life-saving into [TS]

  miniatures and back in a dry erase [TS]

  markers and other other stuff you don't [TS]

  really need and i think that's that's I [TS]

  mean what's a lot like the house doing [TS]

  this I don't know why it's kind of hard [TS]

  to explain i'm especially considering [TS]

  that those stereotypes are still there [TS]

  and when i try to explain what I enjoy [TS]

  about it i'm very tempted to say things [TS]

  that what will really tap into those [TS]

  stereotypes and frankly we're talking [TS]

  before about like when we got in like [TS]

  role-playing games and such [TS]

  the first thought I had was into all the [TS]

  first time somebody Randy for me it was [TS]

  when I was a little kid and playing with [TS]

  my little brother with the kid down the [TS]

  street and we pretended to be beating up [TS]

  bad guys and going on adventures and [TS]

  saving people and stuff because the that [TS]

  part of like your sort of you know [TS]

  childlike adventure brain it doesn't [TS]

  mean it doesn't have to die you go and I [TS]

  feel like it [TS]

  it was the reason that we don't we stop [TS]

  doing that to some extent is because we [TS]

  know other people are watching us and if [TS]

  there's a way that it can be engaged in [TS]

  and you dress it up however you want a [TS]

  dress that's all we're doing it using [TS]

  you know figures and math and so it's [TS]

  much more complicated and intricate [TS]

  technical map if that's what you got to [TS]

  do they call it back sharp [TS]

  personally I like to think of it in [TS]

  terms of the width and the kind of role [TS]

  players like to play too [TS]

  I like to think it was geared toward [TS]

  more like improvisational acting then [TS]

  necessarily more like a war game I like [TS]

  you know just putting on another role [TS]

  for a lot like to think of it is is a [TS]

  also sort of analogous to just telling a [TS]

  story with a bunch of friends help which [TS]

  is i mean i really liked writing i [TS]

  really like storytelling and I feel like [TS]

  you get together and it's potentially [TS]

  free as Tony said and yet you're getting [TS]

  a better story than what most Hollywood [TS]

  movies are going to give you and you [TS]

  feel like you helped make that story [TS]

  which is something that you know [TS]

  computer role-playing games and video [TS]

  game role-playing games can let you do [TS]

  too but they're so restrictive compared [TS]

  to what you can do with just [TS]

  improvisational thinking among your [TS]

  and such so that that's that's my why i [TS]

  think i think i agree with that night I [TS]

  really personally I love storytelling as [TS]

  well and I do a lot of writing but you [TS]

  know there's definitely a point where [TS]

  you feel totally tapped out and writing [TS]

  and you're staring at a blank screen [TS]

  you're just frustrated that you can tell [TS]

  stories does go fast enough or whatever [TS]

  and so having that element of being able [TS]

  to sit around with a bunch of friends [TS]

  and tell that story and not having like [TS]

  the feeling stymied in terms of like i [TS]

  got i just can't think of what's going [TS]

  to happen next like things sort of get [TS]

  pushed along with or without you and you [TS]

  have to adapt and and react and things [TS]

  like that I find that really appealing [TS]

  and I and I agree that there is a large [TS]

  element of improvisational acting to the [TS]

  role-playing elements of the game and so [TS]

  you can sort of it's a nice mix between [TS]

  that and something that's just like a [TS]

  board game which engages a different [TS]

  part of your brain and makes you think [TS]

  about strategy and tactics and you know [TS]

  it's nice to be able to take a break [TS]

  when you're playing D&D and maybe it's [TS]

  like all right you got like you know a [TS]

  few minutes like rolling dice and [TS]

  thinking about numbers and lookin at [TS]

  your sheet and everything and then you [TS]

  know maybe you know 15 20 minutes of my [TS]

  car now I'm going to like interact is [TS]

  this character and there's a lot of [TS]

  different parts of your brain that [TS]

  getting engaged by that which I i really [TS]

  enjoy [TS]

  no but maybe that's because I'm a loser [TS]

  I don't think it's interesting that my [TS]

  girlfriend i was i was trying to get a [TS]

  sense of what people like about the game [TS]

  that I i I've been running on and off [TS]

  for the last several months and so I [TS]

  asked you Tony what are you getting out [TS]

  of standard you getting this is my [TS]

  girlfriend when she gets out of that and [TS]

  she said I just like seeing you act [TS]

  really funny and playing different [TS]

  characters and so like she basically [TS]

  just shows up because you know other [TS]

  people she is his friends with are there [TS]

  and one of them happens to be her [TS]

  boyfriend you goofs off cool completely [TS]

  so I feel like that social element is [TS]

  such a central part of it too you know [TS]

  yeah absolutely well one other question [TS]

  asks or as we're wrapping up here is do [TS]

  you guys have a favorite like a [TS]

  memorable character or like a favorite [TS]

  character that you've played at some [TS]

  point in the past either from you know [TS]

  like a story perspective or whatever it [TS]

  just in terms of something you really [TS]

  liked about them [TS]

  I i do have a character I played this [TS]

  character who was a drought help and if [TS]

  you're not familiar with the dungeons [TS]

  and dragons setting brownells are evil [TS]

  school can see it and then living for [TS]

  dat paper dioramas they live underground [TS]

  and they have magical cities and they [TS]

  worship spiders and it all makes sense [TS]

  I play this so he was an archer who was [TS]

  blind and chaotic evil and I i played [TS]

  him for many years and through the [TS]

  course it wasn't really is everything [TS]

  characters and that's just kind of a [TS]

  manifestation of yourself as well it's [TS]

  true it's just it's the other part of me [TS]

  and at one point our party had a paladin [TS]

  in it and if you don't know what [TS]

  paladins are there are you know these [TS]

  these exemplars of all that is good in [TS]

  the world and in fact they can detect [TS]

  evil and if they find evil characters [TS]

  generally they don't want to associate [TS]

  with them so for whatever reason the [TS]

  person playing the Paladin did not ever [TS]

  do anything to me put my character [TS]

  plotted to assassinate the paladin and i [TS]

  did in fact kill the paladin and then [TS]

  throughout the course of our adventure [TS]

  we came across some treasure and the DM [TS]

  kind of nonchalantly said oh and there [TS]

  are many platinum bars which is what you [TS]

  would take if you are an evil character [TS]

  so I i had a bag of holding and I took [TS]

  all of our platinum bars and I had so [TS]

  much money that diem was like you have [TS]

  to do something with all this money and [TS]

  you can't buy magic items so I built the [TS]

  castle and hired an army [TS]

  I invited the rest of the characters to [TS]

  come to my castle and i have my army [TS]

  killed them [TS]

  wow wow as do you still have friends [TS]

  after that I well that was what i was [TS]

  going to college so I was like a play [TS]

  with you guys can I guess I'm gonna cut [TS]

  those ties it all [TS]

  that's that's pretty mercenary there wow [TS]

  yeah I got I got nothin like that I [TS]

  don't want to follow I care my friends [TS]

  it's really it's really holding me back [TS]

  is a play wasn't going to let you scan [TS]

  and i have to admit i don't i don't [TS]

  think back to any character i ever [TS]

  played is one that i found particularly [TS]

  interesting or I mean you know i have [TS]

  had fun playing but when you ask me like [TS]

  my favorite character had a chance to [TS]

  play was actually one of the non-player [TS]

  characters for for the denominator that [TS]

  we've been playing it and not really [TS]

  because of what I did with it but [TS]

  because of because of my players did [TS]

  with it [TS]

  this character's name is and ross are [TS]

  the nose look who I mean it's not [TS]

  educate commonly known as Andy yeah and [TS]

  I mean isn't that his name is not really [TS]

  address our concerns he lives in West [TS]

  Philadelphia and he would like to be a [TS]

  wuss or someday and he was basically [TS]

  just put into the game to be comic [TS]

  relief as you know this this perfectly [TS]

  mundane human who is constantly hanging [TS]

  around haranguing the player characters [TS]

  trying to get them to take them along [TS]

  adventures and stuff it would definitely [TS]

  be detrimental to his health and just [TS]

  constantly just being underfoot and it [TS]

  just wanted to put them in there [TS]

  basically that to have a laugh and maybe [TS]

  to get him killed eventually instead as [TS]

  a sort of hollow-point boiler is 100 [TS]

  but that's that's not what happened the [TS]

  the day that he was going to potentially [TS]

  get killed [TS]

  what it is is kind of what i actually [TS]

  started liking him as a character [TS]

  because um one of the players basically [TS]

  i'm shocked him into fainting and said [TS]

  essentially you know this is what this [TS]

  is really David here's a decapitated had [TS]

  this problem this is really dangerous [TS]

  what were involved with its you should [TS]

  you should really get away but if you're [TS]

  really committed to helping us then just [TS]

  be aware of what this we're getting [TS]

  involved with and putting it in that [TS]

  didn't actually occur to me that he [TS]

  would be invited in [TS]

  in that way and that's what he had been [TS]

  looking for so I was just kind of like [TS]

  all right I guess he'll take it and he [TS]

  ended up actually growing as a character [TS]

  which is something i never actually been [TS]

  intended for him and so I guess I like [TS]

  that character as someone who sort of [TS]

  represents that sort of collaborative [TS]

  aspect of storytelling that like if it [TS]

  hadn't been for what my players were [TS]

  doing then things would have taken a [TS]

  completely different completely [TS]

  different turn it is just an idea I mean [TS]

  he's still gonna be around for comic [TS]

  relief but you know probably won't kill [TS]

  me but that is really i mean but it's [TS]

  cool to have somebody developing I i [TS]

  think very similarly about like TV shows [TS]

  i like where you know you start with a [TS]

  character who might be a little bit [TS]

  off-putting or sort of comic and then [TS]

  and then develop surprising depth depth [TS]

  or to have visitors if it's bad I can't [TS]

  talk to make their but you know I think [TS]

  it's their bodies a great example of [TS]

  many of there are a lot of characters [TS]

  you start off as kind of annoying comic [TS]

  relief characters who also who actually [TS]

  develop these really you know other in [TS]

  you know other sides of their characters [TS]

  that really show off the dramatic angles [TS]

  whenever somebody it's cool when that [TS]

  happens in a game that's sort of [TS]

  improvisational don't need you have a [TS]

  digital with characters give enough time [TS]

  I you know maybe Mike the characters and [TS]

  player this are just not there to to [TS]

  one-dimensional my cuz i tend to [TS]

  remember the stories to take place in [TS]

  the adventure more than my characters [TS]

  Tom I don't know it's kind of amusing [TS]

  when you play guess maybe I maybe [TS]

  there's a little Scott McNulty and all [TS]

  of us when you play [TS]

  everything is antagonistic toward toward [TS]

  the group I mean there's a game of dread [TS]

  where I would play the like basically [TS]

  drug-addicted doctor who you know how [TS]

  yeah and I i played him as a [TS]

  drug-addicted doctor he wasn't very [TS]

  reliable he had issues he had a bookie [TS]

  loan money to let you know other players [TS]

  found that frustrating and get in the [TS]

  gate one of the games of a nominated [TS]

  play-by-play uh an angel who was [TS]

  basically like the NARC of angels and he [TS]

  wants it was his job to go around like [TS]

  make sure the other angels were like you [TS]

  know keeping it clean and not swearing [TS]

  and stuff and one of the other hairs [TS]

  would like want to murder people all the [TS]

  time and they would like you like shake [TS]

  his head and he'd get really pissed off [TS]

  so that's basically like buying a castle [TS]

  and hiring an army to have all your [TS]

  friends killed he trips up to step down [TS]

  but yeah close you could work up to it [TS]

  but I mean I and I guess perhaps and [TS]

  perhaps it's unfortunate but it's it's [TS]

  fun to play a character that other [TS]

  players react to a little bit though [TS]

  perhaps it doesn't always have to be in [TS]

  kind of a obstacle antagonistic kind of [TS]

  way because I I'm you know their games i [TS]

  played with other people wear when [TS]

  somebody creates a character that [TS]

  becomes like a bigger problem that [TS]

  whatever the problem you're trying to [TS]

  solve is that can be a little [TS]

  frustrating but yeah I think it's kind [TS]

  of it's fun for me when that happens [TS]

  recognize a little here or if it's a DM [TS]

  because we're playing is so much about [TS]

  cooperating [TS]

  yes whenever you have something or [TS]

  someone a character that doesn't [TS]

  cooperate and kind of breaks that kind [TS]

  of trope it makes it a little more [TS]

  interesting for me and probably [TS]

  frustrating for everyone else but just I [TS]

  find it interesting the one of the more [TS]

  frustrating experiences in my ill-fated [TS]

  vampire the masquerade games one of the [TS]

  characters it what the other players [TS]

  playing a character like his thing would [TS]

  that he would he would go into like a [TS]

  murderous rage and kill lots of people [TS]

  and then like come out of it and not [TS]

  remember anything like we spent three [TS]

  games s in a room where all we were [TS]

  doing was hiding bodies of people that [TS]

  this guy get killed [TS]

  likely we like I mean there was like an [TS]

  ongoing mission that we were supposed to [TS]

  be addressing but no words we're busy [TS]

  like cleaning up after this guy all the [TS]

  time it's like you know you had three [TS]

  bodies and it loses a little charm i [TS]

  think that is and three Bob and [TS]

  everything especially you know the [TS]

  player would sit there smugly like [TS]

  laughing at all of us as we you know [TS]

  scrambled to clean up the chaos has [TS]

  created I'm just saying you kill [TS]

  somebody you don't pitch it on on how [TS]

  your body what kind of vampire are you [TS]

  and but at least that makes a good story [TS]

  I think I'm more and more inclined to [TS]

  forgive the player who's being a jerk [TS]

  for the sake of making things [TS]

  interesting [TS]

  then forgive the player who is [TS]

  completely unintentional ed railing the [TS]

  game by obsessing over rules [TS]

  I I mean Rose lawyers is my least [TS]

  favorite form of person [TS]

  Hitler was in ruins lawyer oh wow [TS]

  Godwin's law Oh understand this week I [TS]

  mean we had we had we had a player in [TS]

  this denominator game good dear dear [TS]

  friend of mine who's no longer allowed [TS]

  to play no longer allowed to play the [TS]

  kind of angel who possesses people [TS]

  because our meetings became this sort of [TS]

  tedium of hierarchy so I've got two [TS]

  pigeons and I've got this guy's a drug [TS]

  dealer but it's in my nature to leave [TS]

  him in better shape than I found him and [TS]

  so dan you gotta give me fifty bucks as [TS]

  if the guy had a good day selling drugs [TS]

  because I'm yeah let's talk about what [TS]

  it's like to live life as a drug dealer [TS]

  power my pigeons doing remember exactly [TS]

  and so that this is what are this is [TS]

  what our adventure became was taking [TS]

  care of pigeons and drug dealers that [TS]

  was that was definitely not what I [TS]

  signed up for when i signed up to be an [TS]

  angel [TS]

  yeah i was gonna cheat a little bit for [TS]

  mine which is that this is a character I [TS]

  played in an online game a role-playing [TS]

  game home which was a star wars base now [TS]

  even when I totally get yeah I got Scott [TS]

  really riled up over there wasn't an [TS]

  Ewok it was not any you are sadly no you [TS]

  see keeps the sort of a smuggler [TS]

  mercenary type of courses helped a but [TS]

  it-it-it yes everyone's laughing because [TS]

  I play I template syntax characters [TS]

  I'm very unoriginal and so in this [TS]

  particular character head [TS]

  signed up to help a a Imperial Admiral [TS]

  defect in the game and he managed to you [TS]

  know get this guy out and you know that [TS]

  life was going fine until one day when [TS]

  he was walking down the street and got [TS]

  into a sort of discussion with this [TS]

  someone else and then destroyed started [TS]

  suspiciously coming over so being the [TS]

  suspicious type II shot the droid which [TS]

  turned out to be full of explosives and [TS]

  actually died and i was i was very sad [TS]

  that he died and i could not believe [TS]

  that i had actually had a character [TS]

  totally just killed in front of my eyes [TS]

  and it was it was a pretty pretty moving [TS]

  experience for me I said to your [TS]

  character deaths and be as the person [TS]

  who has caused many of them can be [TS]

  traumatic experience especially in a [TS]

  game system where resurrection is not [TS]

  nor it's not like wow he's dead but [TS]

  there's enough pieces of them left we [TS]

  can hold him back to the healer [TS]

  yeah i mean it can be very permanently [TS]

  you know and and when you spend a lot of [TS]

  time invested a lot of time in building [TS]

  a character that then you know through [TS]

  for whatever reason he just doesn't make [TS]

  it out i think you know it can be very [TS]

  it can be very affecting if anybody's [TS]

  listen to the the penny arcade podcast [TS]

  yeah which they do a role-playing game [TS]

  one of the one of the main characters [TS]

  dies after being trapped in a pool of [TS]

  Ascension acid it's very set worst kind [TS]

  of acid and he's very angry he didn't [TS]

  feel he was angry [TS]

  yeah yeah well you know that that's [TS]

  definitely you invest a lot of time and [TS]

  and and emotion in building your [TS]

  character and turning him into a real [TS]

  fleshed-out person and then you throw it [TS]

  all away by walking into ascension acid [TS]

  i think there's something we can all [TS]

  learn that stay away from Santa [TS]

  desiccants what we've got to the PSA [TS]

  fortunate that you use the buddy system [TS]

  for goodness sake don't split the [TS]

  parties yeah really [TS]

  I i will say in New the words of [TS]

  Scotland healthy this podcast is over or [TS]

  more or less over [TS]

  well we we we have pretty much reached [TS]

  the end of our allotted hour so I want [TS]

  to thank you guys all for joining me and [TS]

  being willing to talk about dungeons [TS]

  dragons [TS]

  yes yes I'm going to be distorting your [TS]

  voices and changing your name soon [TS]

  he actually knows who you are thank you [TS]

  Tony your work anytime thanks Jason [TS]

  tossing thank you for someone in need [TS]

  and of course Scott mcafee thank you and [TS]

  we'll see you next time [TS]

  that I [TS]

  the other ducks on campaign that I [TS]

  played [TS]

  once again showing my twisted nature I [TS]

  had all my players they're very excited [TS]

  because this isn't dark sun second [TS]

  edition first came out it was like [TS]

  nothing in that that I guess tsr at the [TS]

  time had ever done before so we're all [TS]

  very excited spent hours making of [TS]

  characters and giving equipment and at [TS]

  that in the first edition [TS]

  well the second edition dark sun you [TS]

  start off in third level because it was [TS]

  so difficult yep so they they spent like [TS]

  hours creating characters and coming up [TS]

  with the perfect equipment and I said [TS]

  okay started the adventure [TS]

  they were all you know whatever doing [TS]

  something in the city and I said you're [TS]

  captured by slavers and they take all [TS]

  the stuff that happens you Scott [TS]

  it was awesome [TS]