The Incomparable

28: Bad at High School


  the in tom purple Todd test number 20 a [TS]

  morris 2011 [TS]

  we are back on the incomparable your [TS]

  source for all discussions about topics [TS]

  that are relatively Kiki and major I [TS]

  hope I'm not offending anybody by saying [TS]

  that I there was a time in my life when [TS]

  I was a teenager in the eighties where I [TS]

  i guess i would be offended if somebody [TS]

  said my interests were geeky although if [TS]

  I was standing there wearing a doctor [TS]

  who t-shirt then I would be have no [TS]

  defense i would be a supposed to use [TS]

  your son exclude driver and teach them a [TS]

  lesson [TS]

  yes I didn't have a scrubbing sonic [TS]

  screwdriver i did have actually even [TS]

  worse it was a glow-in-the-dark Doctor [TS]

  Who t-shirt with the five doctors ormond [TS]

  this is presumably so you can see how [TS]

  many girls were not impressed by the [TS]

  t-shirt at you why was I was going to [TS]

  mention barrels at least in the context [TS]

  of I did wear to high school a couple of [TS]

  times and I know I never dated anybody [TS]

  in high school so connect the dots [TS]

  coincidence i think i think not my [TS]

  Motley Crue that joins me today a [TS]

  combination we haven't had before this [TS]

  podcast i believe we have joining us [TS]

  from from the lovely silver city of [TS]

  alameda Lisa Schmeisser hi Lisa [TS]

  hello also joining me today is John [TS]

  siracusa hi John [TS]

  you know I think this is kind of like [TS]

  this long-running TV dramas were [TS]

  eventually everybody has to be on a show [TS]

  with everybody else [TS]

  every permutation must be explored so [TS]

  I'm happy to further that goal [TS]

  excellent excellent and our very own Ted [TS]

  McGinley himself scott mcneil the-- [TS]

  hello who have nothing in response to [TS]

  that I get you shouldn't you should be [TS]

  offended you should shout this podcast [TS]

  is over i'm saving that for later later [TS]

  thank you that's right always keep the [TS]

  red button I'm ready to be pushed so our [TS]

  topic today is a different one for us a [TS]

  little bit [TS]

  Lisa send a message to our our little [TS]

  incomparable mailing list talking about [TS]

  geek culture as a concept in general and [TS]

  the the concepts of you know geek [TS]

  culture is a secret culture or you know [TS]

  was it accidentally secret was it secret [TS]

  because nobody really cared to join me [TS]

  so we were all alone in it and one of [TS]

  the one of the articles that came up was [TS]

  a piece that ran and wired a little [TS]

  while ago by comedian Patton [TS]

  Oswalt very funny fellow who those of [TS]

  you who are not familiar with his comedy [TS]

  may know as the voice of the the remedy [TS]

  the rat in ratatouille [TS]

  you may also know him as the although i [TS]

  don't know many kings of king of queens [TS]

  listeners who might listen to the [TS]

  incomparable but if you are a a king of [TS]

  queens viewer he was on that sitcom as [TS]

  well [TS]

  very funny fellow and as it turns out [TS]

  remarkably nerdy which I I wasn't aware [TS]

  of that he wrote a piece and wired [TS]

  called wake up geek culture time to die [TS]

  which itself is a blade runner reference [TS]

  by the way and in it he talks about nerd [TS]

  culture and how back in the day and the [TS]

  eighties he felt that he was part of a [TS]

  secret society who was able to shout out [TS]

  Monty Python references and and Princess [TS]

  Bride references and talk about various [TS]

  monsters in the monster manual of [TS]

  Dungeons and Dragons and and refer to [TS]

  specific Star Trek episodes and was [TS]

  reading not just the watchman but the [TS]

  swamp thing run of alan moore that [TS]

  preceded the watch men and how in this [TS]

  day of Internet a knowledge and in many [TS]

  ways a celebration of the culture that [TS]

  this has been lost now some of what he [TS]

  writes it's sort of silly but some of it [TS]

  i think is also very serious and and [TS]

  will link to it in the show notes and [TS]

  you might want to stop and read it and [TS]

  then come back if you have that sort of [TS]

  multitasking podcast person but so so [TS]

  with that said I i wanted to start by [TS]

  getting reactions to to what Patton [TS]

  Oswalt road and also maybe a little bit [TS]

  about sort of your looking back on your [TS]

  life and and how you kind of got [TS]

  immersed in more geeky pursuits [TS]

  Lisa I you you're the one who brought [TS]

  this to our attention you know where [TS]

  would you like to start [TS]

  I i have to admit i'm a big patton [TS]

  oswalt family I have all of his albums i [TS]

  read this essay right after I finished [TS]

  reading his books Dombey spaceship [TS]

  apocalypse and the premise of which can [TS]

  you explain the zombie spaceship [TS]

  apocalypse premise there because it [TS]

  seems pretty self-explanatory 10 there [TS]

  are actually three separate concepts [TS]

  oh yeah you know as Walter Isaacson that [TS]

  most fantasy and sci-fi folk can be [TS]

  divided into one of three tribes those [TS]

  who connect with zombie stories those [TS]

  who connect with spaceship stories and [TS]

  those who connect with the [TS]

  post-apocalyptic landscape stories and [TS]

  his premise is that how you connect [TS]

  actually says a lot about you as a [TS]

  person for example people who connect [TS]

  with spaceships stories tend not to be [TS]

  very interested in solving problems [TS]

  where they are because they're like [TS]

  screw this i'll just find another space [TS]

  system and in real life they tend to be [TS]

  pretty self-contained they tend to be [TS]

  prepared for everything because they [TS]

  have that on a spaceship mentality and [TS]

  he alleges that most comedians connect [TS]

  with straight across the [TS]

  post-apocalyptic landscape type [TS]

  scenarios because it's about the total [TS]

  disintegration chaos of society and [TS]

  observing what comes next so he'd [TS]

  already begun working on a sort of nerd [TS]

  taxonomy and then this article came out [TS]

  and I I see him sort of codifying his [TS]

  argument even more and I think the thing [TS]

  that rubs me the wrong way is it's a [TS]

  nostalgia soaked piece in the sense oh I [TS]

  was in to watch my back before it was a [TS]

  byword for a spectacularly bad movie and [TS]

  it's it's kind of doing the same thing [TS]

  that the social groups who really did [TS]

  ostracized ostracized nerds and geeks [TS]

  did to us back in the eighties which is [TS]

  it's creating a hierarchy putting people [TS]

  in it and assigning value judgments to [TS]

  it and its complaint as well you people [TS]

  who are geeks today aren't geeky enough [TS]

  because you don't have to work that hard [TS]

  for the arcana but there's not a [TS]

  commitment [TS]

  yes exactly um I can remember going to [TS]

  virginia tech in 1990 and meeting up [TS]

  with a group with a mutual friends group [TS]

  of friends who were huge into this the [TS]

  this icon circuit and they had all of [TS]

  these in jokes that you would know if [TS]

  you had been attending Baltic on and [TS]

  Dragon Con in the rest of the cons to [TS]

  the eighties and somehow in order to be [TS]

  part of this group I was going to have [TS]

  to be expected to hunt down the [TS]

  references and spend enough time around [TS]

  these people that could build a social [TS]

  capital to be included in the [TS]

  conversation and needless to say that [TS]

  was like the first last time I hung out [TS]

  with these folks but well I mean come on [TS]

  uh it's just that the the notion that [TS]

  you have to have some sort of [TS]

  admissions test to qualify for being [TS]

  interested in the subculture that it is [TS]

  something i can see keeps coming up with [TS]

  it is it's just an idea that rubs me the [TS]

  wrong way [TS]

  well it's not a jock is not a joke move [TS]

  i'm right i mean i mean is not have to [TS]

  try a 13 exclude an exclusive excluding [TS]

  people because they're not cool enough [TS]

  and I don't pass for your membership [TS]

  test is is I mean it sounds like a very [TS]

  unnerved like thing to do i would [TS]

  actually and you can also get a band [TS]

  geek / drama club move because you have [TS]

  to have some monochrome of talent or [TS]

  some cult of personality aspected that [TS]

  lets you run around with the people who [TS]

  are always putting on coffin our place [TS]

  and I thought it's it's very typical of [TS]

  people of a geeky orderly persuasion to [TS]

  want to assign hierarchies because if [TS]

  you take a look at the passions that [TS]

  drive people like Dungeons and Dragons [TS]

  or comic book collecting or Star Wars [TS]

  there there's part of the appeals is [TS]

  this Universal internal consistent rules [TS]

  apply to make order of it so it's an [TS]

  understandable impulse I just think it's [TS]

  reprehensible when it comes to human [TS]

  nature and it also seems to be [TS]

  remarkably unselfconscious when you know [TS]

  come on the part of being a geek or nerd [TS]

  was you had a degree of ostracize ation [TS]

  which led you to observe other social [TS]

  groups and see how they function so why [TS]

  aren't you turning that on to your own [TS]

  little rules and structures what is what [TS]

  seems to be saying is that the reason [TS]

  that that people got into these kind of [TS]

  key topics because they were not really [TS]

  discussed and widely known and and i [TS]

  read that and thought that I don't think [TS]

  that's the case at all i think that I i [TS]

  think it was the reverse I think that I [TS]

  was interested in things that were [TS]

  narrower than than what other people [TS]

  were interested in not because they were [TS]

  narrow but be just because I I i like [TS]

  them so my question is you know it do we [TS]

  like reading about you know hearing [TS]

  stories about about people on spaceships [TS]

  are on other planets because we're where [TS]

  you know we want to be separate from the [TS]

  crowd or just because we like that extra [TS]

  layer of kind of imagination that [TS]

  something like sci-fi or fantasy can [TS]

  give us that some stuff that's more [TS]

  literal wouldn't give us [TS]

  I don't think patent was saying that we [TS]

  like them because they're [TS]

  are there narrow his the beginning part [TS]

  of that sa was all tangled up into these [TS]

  these poorly supported most the [TS]

  conclusions that I totally disagree with [TS]

  a minute veered off into this comedy [TS]

  thing so it's hard to it's hard to get [TS]

  it what he was like trying to say [TS]

  because he'd go from one party to the [TS]

  next you just throw something out there [TS]

  completely unsupported just you know [TS]

  saying it as if it's a fact then move on [TS]

  to his next point and almost all those [TS]

  points early works better spoken in a [TS]

  stand-up routine i would think yeah [TS]

  because then you can laugh and he but [TS]

  you know if you think about any of them [TS]

  out sticking and that you can sink into [TS]

  the rhythm and make center and you're [TS]

  saying like you know is it because [TS]

  they're narrow you're trying to examine [TS]

  his earlier argument as if they're there [TS]

  logically constructed and try to think [TS]

  of some sort of underlying he might have [TS]

  and I think there's a decent argument [TS]

  here which is you know d is nerd culture [TS]

  exciting because it gives the Nerds [TS]

  something that only they know that that [TS]

  all the other people don't know or is it [TS]

  just the way it is because that's the [TS]

  stuff that being nerdy being geeky means [TS]

  you were interested in in in these [TS]

  things you know just because you are it [TS]

  has nothing to do with excluding other [TS]

  people i think it's a little bit i think [TS]

  it's a little more a little more dire [TS]

  than that and that i think the people [TS]

  who are geeks in high school are the [TS]

  people who are who don't have the tools [TS]

  or are not successful at the the the [TS]

  social game that sort of defines high [TS]

  school right and for whatever reason [TS]

  they're just you know they're shy there [TS]

  they're awkward they're they're insecure [TS]

  they have some sort of problem that [TS]

  keeps them out of the larger social game [TS]

  that's that the the norm right and i [TS]

  think once you're out of that game you [TS]

  need to find something else to to [TS]

  accelerator to be interested in you just [TS]

  have more time for other things now I [TS]

  say that because i think that the the [TS]

  love for things the geeks like [TS]

  spaceships robots you know fantasy novel [TS]

  stuff like that that stuff is if I [TS]

  pretty much evenly distributed across [TS]

  all kids of that age I believe but it [TS]

  only manifests in the people who are who [TS]

  don't do well in the social structure of [TS]

  of that that time period of their lives [TS]

  and they you know dive right into ahead [TS]

  for [TS]

  just and and that ties back into the [TS]

  panel's thing always talks about the the [TS]

  dude in the gym who's got the above that [TS]

  thing on his sleeve is lifting weights [TS]

  and he was the jock who is you know [TS]

  beating up on high school but now he [TS]

  thinks he can co-opt both that an actual [TS]

  he's cool [TS]

  I think he liked both it just as much as [TS]

  you did he just wasn't is dedicated and [TS]

  obsessed right in in high school and [TS]

  that's what I think it is i don't think [TS]

  it has to do with were more interested [TS]

  in these topics and other people you [TS]

  know obviously this visit i could hit a [TS]

  spectrum there is just that it we [TS]

  dedicated ourselves more to it because [TS]

  we didn't have other things to dedicate [TS]

  ourselves to with that sports or [TS]

  relationships or anything like that [TS]

  they're so so this is the thing that we [TS]

  could master whereas somebody else might [TS]

  just think it was cool I i do i really [TS]

  like what you said there because i think [TS]

  that there's truth in that that you know [TS]

  it's not that this stuff wasn't [TS]

  appreciated by lots of people I really [TS]

  refute the idea i'm not sure if [TS]

  anybody's actually made this accusation [TS]

  but i felt a little of it coming from [TS]

  Oswalt that that the reason people like [TS]

  stories about spaceships or or or [TS]

  fantasy realms is because they've [TS]

  decided to retreat from reality and [TS]

  that's the only reason you'd like them [TS]

  is because you're an outcast which just [TS]

  like no wrong or you like them because [TS]

  they're because they're narrowly I mean [TS]

  if anything geeks to meet these geeks [TS]

  wanted to be part of the group why would [TS]

  they seek out something that took them [TS]

  away from the group you know they were [TS]

  to this just means that's just not the [TS]

  impulse you know there they were looking [TS]

  for any other kid who played the india [TS]

  with them in honey you know I I i think [TS]

  i was just completely clueless when I [TS]

  think back to high school but when I put [TS]

  on that glow in the dark doctor who [TS]

  shirt I was just like I thought it was I [TS]

  didn't think it was cool it's just I [TS]

  liked it and so I wore it and i think if [TS]

  i had been more aware of how to build up [TS]

  some more social standing [TS]

  I would have known that that was a [TS]

  really bad idea and I figured that out [TS]

  much later denied all knowledge of the [TS]

  it's likely that you're bad you're not a [TS]

  second you were not able to successfully [TS]

  navigate the social structure of high [TS]

  school for whatever reason you know you [TS]

  just didn't have until they clicked [TS]

  right but right so it was almost [TS]

  cluelessness more than anything else I [TS]

  didn't was like well I can master Doctor [TS]

  Who because nobody else will have me it [TS]

  was more like I just I was like oh this [TS]

  is cool not aware that it was so not [TS]

  cool [TS]

  so it and if you have found other doctor [TS]

  who fans you ever like yes you should [TS]

  let me go [TS]

  you about Doctor Who I love it I think [TS]

  you'll love it too and that you know you [TS]

  wouldn't like heart jealously as if you [TS]

  here we want like no you can't know [TS]

  about doc Oh God let me tell you John [TS]

  there was another doctor who fan in my [TS]

  high school and os was it your [TS]

  arch-nemesis [TS]

  no no he was the geekiest person at the [TS]

  high school he oh my god he was your [TS]

  stereotypical a geeky guy nerdy guy he [TS]

  kind of couldn't talk to people [TS]

  hehe was super super like science guy [TS]

  and he will actually wore he wore the [TS]

  Tom Baker scarf around all the time and [TS]

  and even I knew that was a faux pas [TS]

  socially so i couldn't i I couldn't bear [TS]

  to have any sort of alliance with him [TS]

  even though he was kind of a kid's [TS]

  kindred spirit and we occasionally he'd [TS]

  be like oh you like Doctor Who to like [TS]

  uh yeah I got a thing I gotta go because [TS]

  he was so far out there so I I feel bad [TS]

  about it now but he was just like no no [TS]

  that way lies madness so but it wasn't [TS]

  because you felt like now that another [TS]

  person interested in it lessens the [TS]

  attraction of Doctor Who to me it didn't [TS]

  affect your attractive doctor who at all [TS]

  no sadly did there was actually kind of [TS]

  a dividing line between geek experiences [TS]

  in high school versus college [TS]

  we're in high school I i agree with John [TS]

  that some of some of the the the geek [TS]

  set as it were if you have to put the [TS]

  parentheses around certainly comes from [TS]

  not being able to navigate high school's [TS]

  rules and structures which I want to add [TS]

  is not necessarily a bad thing but in [TS]

  college I noticed a lot of geeks were [TS]

  very very rigorous about reinforcing [TS]

  what they thought the parameters and [TS]

  boundaries of geek culture were and they [TS]

  were very quick to throw you out of it [TS]

  or call you as a fraud if you couldn't [TS]

  keep up with the code [TS]

  um there's you couldn't quote the [TS]

  princess bride with the group that you [TS]

  were if you can answer Monty Python [TS]

  quote with a corresponding quote or if [TS]

  you couldn't keep track of whether that [TS]

  Jean Grey was alive or dead on a given [TS]

  day up which is hard you for Furyk for [TS]

  example in high school the guy who [TS]

  passed me elfquest comic books in [TS]

  English class was also the school pot [TS]

  dealer so he kind of move back and forth [TS]

  between always [TS]

  different interests so he could you [TS]

  could get your own you can hook you up [TS]

  with health quest or with pop well if [TS]

  you really like elfquest I I have [TS]

  something there is a little bit of [TS]

  chemical you gonna say I'm gonna say [TS]

  it's hard to say which one of those [TS]

  things worse [TS]

  actually if you smoke the pot the [TS]

  HealthQuest gasps colors and that is a [TS]

  comic that makes a lot more sense like [TS]

  the hair dissolving sudden start to come [TS]

  together whereas again in college and [TS]

  again this at people who were in Society [TS]

  for Creative Anachronism would have [TS]

  never ever been caught dead hanging with [TS]

  the people who are doing homegrown [TS]

  pharmaceuticals and again you have the [TS]

  Conn crowd which would darkly Lou 20 [TS]

  that thing Harlan Ellison did back in 86 [TS]

  and all cackle and then look at you like [TS]

  you're supposed to say yes it was [TS]

  terrible when you could not have given [TS]

  two graphs with Harlan also have done [TS]

  back in 1986 and senses Harlan Ellison [TS]

  the list is long so it's it's the idea [TS]

  it as well refers to so talking words [TS]

  out since our little world and people [TS]

  that can roll around the minutiae and [TS]

  you really master a subject in Johnson's [TS]

  well yeah that's because you really have [TS]

  nothing else going on and I thought well [TS]

  maybe it's kind of a form of of [TS]

  hostility where you're like oh you've [TS]

  excluded me [TS]

  well i'm just going to just to show you [TS]

  i'm going to master elvish and write [TS]

  long saugus about how much you suck in [TS]

  elevation it is a hospital with your [TS]

  references to or is it I mean I since [TS]

  I've got this defensive pneus I've gotta [TS]

  you know I've got to I've got two little [TS]

  kids you know you get kids kids kind of [TS]

  want to master something and and I think [TS]

  some of it is that you know if if your [TS]

  world is kind of not understandable you [TS]

  know as a kid you might you might [TS]

  memorize 13 work around it is yeah all [TS]

  the kind of training or all the cuts [TS]

  Star Wars cards or you know you can pick [TS]

  it [TS]

  it's like as a kid you don't just one [TS]

  moment is so popular is because exact [TS]

  yeah my pokemon so popular is because as [TS]

  a child you can figure out okay this is [TS]

  that classification system right this is [TS]

  part of the world i can understand these [TS]

  are the rules this all makes sense that [TS]

  we can a master at this [TS]

  yeah yeah yeah I think that's what [TS]

  drives sort of that kind of kiki drive [TS]

  to to do that is sort of like to make [TS]

  save something and have some [TS]

  understanding and control over it [TS]

  my main problem with this whole idea of [TS]

  geek culture is that it is somehow [TS]

  separate from normal culture right [TS]

  because people [TS]

  are obsessed with a variety of things [TS]

  well that's what also wants that's right [TS]

  he says you know but people are geeking [TS]

  out over that Real Housewives of Beverly [TS]

  Hills you know that married to a [TS]

  baseball not exact and I think you know [TS]

  I think that so a lot of geek culture [TS]

  depends on technology and the written [TS]

  word which is a form of Technology right [TS]

  and so the only reason and I'm just [TS]

  thinking of this right now since make [TS]

  absolutely no sense but i think the only [TS]

  reason that Sports is not considered [TS]

  geeky is because people have been doing [TS]

  it for so much longer so it's just part [TS]

  of the culture and it's okay to like [TS]

  sports because we've been doing it since [TS]

  humans have been you know cognizant of [TS]

  being humans because you know you're [TS]

  running from a tiger something that then [TS]

  becomes a an event that's playing sports [TS]

  not being a sports fan no I saw an [TS]

  interview with the woman who who got in [TS]

  the news because she wanted to wear her [TS]

  star trek uniform too when she was on a [TS]

  jury [TS]

  I saw it and and what she made a point [TS]

  that i have not been able to refute [TS]

  which is why is it weird for me where my [TS]

  star trek uniform but it's not weird for [TS]

  a guy to wear a baseball team or a [TS]

  football team uniform to a baseball game [TS]

  and it's like well you know I think [TS]

  she's got a point there [TS]

  it's true that's why i'm so confused [TS]

  like let's take baseball for example not [TS]

  to you know ostracize any particular [TS]

  numbers of this podcast but I think [TS]

  baseball is probably the creepiest sport [TS]

  oh yeah the world it is right because I [TS]

  yeah it's absolutely it's incredibly [TS]

  boring it's in there are people who are [TS]

  not very athletic [TS]

  it's like a man or get exactly and then [TS]

  all the fans fans are obsessed with [TS]

  statistics that you can't get geekier [TS]

  than that [TS]

  yeah well that's that's that's why i [TS]

  tell it not to take a little tiny peek [TS]

  into Lisa's private life but Lisa is a [TS]

  member of a comic book club and you know [TS]

  she goes cheap she will haunt local [TS]

  comic book stores and her husband [TS]

  couldn't know the Floyd he does now know [TS]

  more about comic books because his wife [TS]

  has has taught him well but not you know [TS]

  and so you can have that moment of [TS]

  offense it's like why there aren't that [TS]

  many women who appreciate comics and [TS]

  this guy he's not worth but you know her [TS]

  Lisa's husband loves baseball and that's [TS]

  one of the things that he does have kind [TS]

  of geeky street just runs two different [TS]

  things and you could argue that baseball [TS]

  his appreciation for baseball is really [TS]

  no different that leases [TS]

  appreciation for comic books although [TS]

  i'm sure he would beat me up and now I [TS]

  told him that actually now I think we've [TS]

  actually come to the agreement that [TS]

  they're pretty parallel and I've also [TS]

  known people who have managed to have [TS]

  for lack of a better word parallel geeky [TS]

  passions for example my brother who also [TS]

  has a comics podcast strangely enough [TS]

  um is a comic book fan he's also [TS]

  classical musician he's very very [TS]

  passionate about dr. so my brother isn't [TS]

  it is a vagner opera teak as well as [TS]

  being a massive geek about the flash [TS]

  series of DC comment on how hard it [TS]

  would be to get into that into that [TS]

  little little circle the bogner circle [TS]

  you say one wrong thing to the Brahms [TS]

  installing your gods are horrible and no [TS]

  classical music people are are just get [TS]

  that that's a whole that's a whole [TS]

  different game I mean yeah I i am [TS]

  humbled world amateur now consider if [TS]

  the class is equal [TS]

  oh we are so so what raw what led me [TS]

  because they think they talk about [TS]

  things that happened in the eighteen [TS]

  hundreds like it was yesterday [TS]

  it's amazing it's a fascinating [TS]

  subculture one of the things that Patton [TS]

  Oswalt talks about that i think i think [TS]

  is an interesting point which is you [TS]

  know when you're in [TS]

  I mean we all we grew up in very [TS]

  different environments and you know East [TS]

  Coast and West Coast and big cities and [TS]

  small towns and but one thing that the [TS]

  Internet has done is eliminated the [TS]

  sense that you are the only or one of a [TS]

  small group of people who who is [TS]

  interested in anything right there [TS]

  what used to be it's just me or it's [TS]

  just two or three people you go on the [TS]

  internet now and you realize it's not [TS]

  just you it's you and like a thousand or [TS]

  ten thousand other people which you know [TS]

  I I do feel like Oswalt's right when he [TS]

  says you know will never again have that [TS]

  feeling of kind of like near isolation [TS]

  that I discovered this thing because now [TS]

  you can go out there and get the faq [TS]

  that tells you everything you need to [TS]

  know about that thing and a mailing list [TS]

  that's got 10,000 people on that [TS]

  isolation is a bad thing though I agree [TS]

  the isolation is bad i mean that that's [TS]

  what spawned those groups that are so [TS]

  hostile to outsiders because if you go [TS]

  through that experience where where it's [TS]

  where you're ostracized in high school [TS]

  and [TS]

  you have and you get a chip on your [TS]

  shoulder that when you finally meet up [TS]

  with more like people in college you'd [TS]

  be more inclined to make an exclusive [TS]

  group that is hostile to outsiders and [TS]

  so on and so forth I think the Internet [TS]

  is breeding a that's why did you hear ya [TS]

  series of geeks I think the geeks [TS]

  they're growing up today i have the [TS]

  benefit of not having that horrible [TS]

  experience because they don't have they [TS]

  could never even imagine that there [TS]

  alone and that by the time they get [TS]

  older they won't have that you know sort [TS]

  of chip on their shoulders they want to [TS]

  seek out revenge or exclude people the [TS]

  way they were excluded and that's why I [TS]

  think you see geek culture spreading so [TS]

  much because people who are growing up [TS]

  in the age of the Internet don't have [TS]

  these problems and it becomes more [TS]

  normal everybody plays video games of if [TS]

  we have I should put in the show notes [TS]

  for this the penny arcade strip was it [TS]

  way back 2001 where they did a strip [TS]

  about adds to the original playstation [TS]

  and the ads were advertising to [TS]

  basically look like you know a hip [TS]

  happening good looking teenagers the [TS]

  people that who actual video gamers [TS]

  hated and that's Tony was advertising to [TS]

  me the games were going mainstream and [TS]

  they have a problem that's what like [TS]

  wait a second these guys weren't you [TS]

  know playing nes in the basement with me [TS]

  they were out playing football why do [TS]

  they get to be part of games well that [TS]

  sort of democratization of geek culture [TS]

  I think we'll it is as a result of it [TS]

  becoming clear that this is not you know [TS]

  and just think it's kind of like when [TS]

  you have all these little islands of [TS]

  people who are you know if their own [TS]

  geeks in their own high schools they [TS]

  could imagine that they were the only [TS]

  ones but once you start connecting those [TS]

  people they sort of like a look around [TS]

  and see each other and rise up you know [TS]

  it's like a rebel forces kept separate [TS]

  once they're joined together you know [TS]

  they cannot go here and do something as [TS]

  a group bicker amongst each other [TS]

  yeah well you know that that's part of [TS]

  it but that's I mean people arguing [TS]

  about you know jets vs giants or [TS]

  whatever you know in your high school [TS]

  the entire time you're there sports [TS]

  teams constant struggle that but no one [TS]

  is arguing over you know a DD vs AD&D [TS]

  except for you and your two friends [TS]

  right yeah well not my high school but I [TS]

  went to an incredibly key high school so [TS]

  yeah they really thought I was gonna say [TS]

  that the beginning really does depend on [TS]

  where you've grown up because I've [TS]

  talked to a lot of people and the [TS]

  experience varies wildly some people go [TS]

  to like you know schools for gifted [TS]

  children where everybody's playing D&D [TS]

  and you know it's it's not a big deal [TS]

  and something that other people like [TS]

  they're the one guy in Idaho [TS]

  who's ever heard of dnd and I i was i [TS]

  was saying as I was listening to our our [TS]

  role playing podcast that that I I was [TS]

  the guy who had all the books and stuff [TS]

  and could never get a game together [TS]

  because there weren't enough people that [TS]

  are not enough people in your entire [TS]

  school see it honestly never occurred to [TS]

  me the DVD was nerdy and the reason is i [TS]

  know that i wanted you or did you grow [TS]

  up xavier school for the gifted no [TS]

  actually no it's the it's the US Navy [TS]

  because my dad brought dnd into the [TS]

  house and my dad used to go out on [TS]

  nuclear subs because he was he worked as [TS]

  a songwriter engineer and so he would go [TS]

  out nuclear subs and dulce trials for [TS]

  weeks at a time and dnd was actually a [TS]

  huge among Navy submarine crews and then [TS]

  it worked its way to the defense [TS]

  contractor for the defense contractor [TS]

  workforce and they brought home to their [TS]

  families and when I grew up and so when [TS]

  I was in Middle School my dad help me [TS]

  roll a couple characters and he'd have [TS]

  me play with the guys in the Navy and he [TS]

  would play my character for me on lunch [TS]

  breaks and I never thought of it as [TS]

  nerdy I just thought it was it was [TS]

  something that people just did and it [TS]

  was it wasn't until you can i switched [TS]

  high schools that i realized that no [TS]

  this is actually considered kind of [TS]

  weird [TS]

  oh and this is why all new nuclear [TS]

  submarines are equipped with magic [TS]

  missiles [TS]

  thank ya good this is why there's a [TS]

  paladin of every crew but when you think [TS]

  about it it's I don't know if tsr [TS]

  actually went after the submarine [TS]

  audience or if it was like a happy [TS]

  accident [TS]

  mark no I don't think that was part of [TS]

  their marketing plan submarine I can't [TS]

  Cruise that's where we have to [TS]

  concentrate [TS]

  I i watch two things that they did it [TS]

  should because honestly because honestly [TS]

  it should have been you've got a group [TS]

  of people who are underwater for three [TS]

  to six months out of the year active [TS]

  audience all men they got a big market [TS]

  they'll really you know they'll already [TS]

  love it they are already loving her well [TS]

  family with ranking capriciousness as so [TS]

  you know why not give them the cake pops [TS]

  and work on that I mean because it gets [TS]

  boring down there and these guys like [TS]

  being able to have the the games that [TS]

  both instructions provided the room for [TS]

  improvisation it's like it was like a [TS]

  perfect marriage of a entertainment [TS]

  audience i do think that the that the [TS]

  the democratization of geek culture is a [TS]

  good thing I mean you look at something [TS]

  like comic-con [TS]

  that began as as a very niche thing and [TS]

  you know what is comic-con now I want [TS]

  first time she okay yeah well for the [TS]

  first time last year and it's it's you [TS]

  know a little bit on the geeky side and [TS]

  you still got your your areas that are [TS]

  comics focus but you know they're there [TS]

  are people cast members from TV shows [TS]

  that have no even remote connection to [TS]

  get culture who were there and and but i [TS]

  think it's a good thing that the fact [TS]

  that the entertainment weekly does [TS]

  stories about things that are happening [TS]

  in comics you know the fact is star wars [TS]

  changed I think the way our culture [TS]

  views science fiction we can argue about [TS]

  the the pros and cons of Star Wars Star [TS]

  Wars isn't like serious science fiction [TS]

  that you read a novel but the fact is [TS]

  now every summer blockbuster basically [TS]

  is sci-fi or or a superhero or fantasy [TS]

  or something like that and and it's [TS]

  changed the way that the general culture [TS]

  of use those kind of stories it's no [TS]

  longer you know it's not to say [TS]

  everybody's rushing out and buying [TS]

  serious sci-fi novels but it's it's [TS]

  changed you know it's changed the way we [TS]

  view that kind of genre because it's [TS]

  then it is the genre 44 film if not for [TS]

  TV and books it is for film i wonder how [TS]

  much that has to do with what we're [TS]

  still grappling with the fact that the [TS]

  American frontier is closed in a way [TS]

  because when you think about it if you [TS]

  look at the trajectory of of popular [TS]

  attitudes over the 20th century at the [TS]

  very beginning of the 20th century one [TS]

  of the American identity crisis was the [TS]

  fact that there were no more territories [TS]

  to homestead and and the frontier was [TS]

  closed we hit the Pacific you know [TS]

  Alaska most was already more Alaska was [TS]

  basically the end of the line as it were [TS]

  and there was a wave of popular culture [TS]

  that lasted throughout the [TS]

  nineteen-thirties where people were [TS]

  trying to figure out what it meant is [TS]

  the country once you literally ran out [TS]

  of room to explore [TS]

  and in a way outer space especially from [TS]

  the fifties on outer space provided a [TS]

  way for us to take that urge for [TS]

  frontier exploration and conquest and [TS]

  cast a wider and I wonder how much of [TS]

  that we're still feeling because we're [TS]

  such a small and interconnected world [TS]

  right now thanks to the internet and it [TS]

  does feel like it's a it does feel like [TS]

  a tiny planet in many ways I mean we can [TS]

  all look at protests going on in Libya [TS]

  in ways that would have been just a [TS]

  5-minute sniff it on the news even 20 [TS]

  years ago and so because the world feel [TS]

  small and it feels very easy to master [TS]

  maybe we're all looking again we're [TS]

  casting RI outward because we also have [TS]

  that urge for exploration frontiers and [TS]

  the idea that you can hop on a spaceship [TS]

  and find something else is tremendously [TS]

  appealing I'd be as some adventure and [TS]

  plus explosions the advance of [TS]

  technology to help with that because [TS]

  before you had Cowboys right because i [TS]

  was technology and then you had jungle [TS]

  adventures exploring africa right but as [TS]

  soon as we got more technology that you [TS]

  went right from the cowboy becomes the [TS]

  jungle adventure becomes the astronaut [TS]

  it's just the view the vehicle they ride [TS]

  on the tools they used to do their job [TS]

  but it's also one exploring so i don't [TS]

  know if it turned as geeky as it just [TS]

  the thing the geeks were into like if [TS]

  you're if you're a kid you know decades [TS]

  ago you would be into Roy Rogers because [TS]

  Cowboys were the best guys or maybe [TS]

  you'd be into you know that the British [TS]

  explorers exploring you know the lost [TS]

  continent in the jungles of africa but [TS]

  that as soon as someone gets on a rocket [TS]

  thats it thats you know did all those [TS]

  kids just switch immediately from the [TS]

  jungle Explorer from the cowboy to this [TS]

  and then ended but now it changes honors [TS]

  now it's sci-fi right now it's not your [TS]

  cowboys warrants I fibers they were real [TS]

  cowboys and jungle explorers were even [TS]

  though the jungle explorers you know [TS]

  we're always finding dinosaurs or [TS]

  whatever that was [TS]

  you didn't call it science fiction then [TS]

  but it was just detected you sprinkle [TS]

  technology on and people think it [TS]

  changes into a different thing but it's [TS]

  exactly the same story is you know the [TS]

  kids fantasizing about nights in the [TS]

  Middle Ages and it's the same thing but [TS]

  they're all of the stories that you [TS]

  mentioned have this element of I've left [TS]

  the structures of society and I am free [TS]

  to write my own narrative and to blaze a [TS]

  path that other people will have to [TS]

  follow and it's just like you said the [TS]

  technology's changed there's a pretty [TS]

  telling moment up when you think about [TS]

  it because that is a whole lot [TS]

  I'm going to explore the jungle and i'm [TS]

  going to discover new species and boy [TS]

  won't people be impressed when I bring [TS]

  it back and if that's not a form of [TS]

  geekery which has the element of boy [TS]

  won't be people be impressed by my [TS]

  mastery because there is some of that [TS]

  you know it all goes back to [TS]

  seven-year-olds want to make sense of [TS]

  the planet goes back to geeks who want [TS]

  to set up a hierarchy of you-know-who [TS]

  who is the the quite solid rock of you [TS]

  know the local high school and all goes [TS]

  back to you boy you'll all be sorry I'm [TS]

  happy I'll show you you know this world [TS]

  has nothing for me i will dream of other [TS]

  worlds that are ya [TS]

  they called me mad at the academy and [TS]

  saviors Academy plus uplands who I did [TS]

  grow up in West Chester's you did grow [TS]

  up in Westchester well I did you ever [TS]

  run into kitty pryde how she doing she [TS]

  ran through me [TS]

  haha oh haha got me actually gone to [TS]

  that school from what i heard of his [TS]

  childhood where everyone's playing D&D [TS]

  and they're all you know just geeking [TS]

  out 24 hours Dave that's right it was it [TS]

  was paradise my Mutant want to know what [TS]

  his power was it was it wasn't one of it [TS]

  one of things when I think back to the [TS]

  stuff i was interested in high school [TS]

  and that sort of experience I actually [TS]

  think the thing that amazes me now is [TS]

  that these things are celebrated in ways [TS]

  that i didn't realize that I think that [TS]

  I think that's true it has to do with [TS]

  feeling at the time like maybe there [TS]

  were some people who are interested in [TS]

  the stuff but basically it was just me [TS]

  and there was it was sort of that [TS]

  feeling of isolation like God why does [TS]

  nobody else care about this stuff and [TS]

  and you look at it now and like that you [TS]

  know what there's that the weezer song [TS]

  in the garage which is basically like [TS]

  taking off all the boxes of everything [TS]

  that's a key person in me in the [TS]

  seventies or eighties would be into you [TS]

  know and and you know they bring back [TS]

  doctor who and break I I they're like [TS]

  regular people who are like oh I love [TS]

  the new doctor who was like the new [TS]

  Doctor Who well let me tell you but they [TS]

  don't know it's a new doctor who they [TS]

  don't know they don't they just think [TS]

  it's doctor who is make sure it's on [TS]

  I tried to explain to my mother that it [TS]

  was on the sixties I blew her mind [TS]

  yeah William Hartnell yes it came on [TS]

  right after the Kennedy assassination [TS]

  said no this is the new show i just [TS]

  started watching [TS]

  oh yeah so but now so that that's the [TS]

  thing that kind of amazing and I'm [TS]

  heartened by that I i I'm I'm i think [TS]

  it's great that these are things that [TS]

  because the bottom line for me was that [TS]

  i'll appreciate those kinds of stories [TS]

  and those kind of worlds and actually [TS]

  sort of felt sad that more people didn't [TS]

  like them because they were so [TS]

  interesting and cool and why would you [TS]

  like them and one of the nice things [TS]

  about being in a connected world like we [TS]

  are is that you can see that other [TS]

  people not only do you find other people [TS]

  who like them but I think it also [TS]

  disseminates more and people who [TS]

  wouldn't you know be into it my wife [TS]

  wasn't into sci-fi or anything like that [TS]

  but but she loves some of the sci-fi TV [TS]

  and Doctor Who and things like that and [TS]

  it's like you know ya see it is good it [TS]

  is really I wasn't wrong i was a great [TS]

  actually kind of a reverse effect [TS]

  because you say like why weren't those [TS]

  people into scifi like i said before i [TS]

  don't think it's because that they [TS]

  didn't like spaceships and didn't like [TS]

  lightsaber stores or how about I think [TS]

  it's because the that subject matter [TS]

  became linked with the people who are [TS]

  bad at high school and you didn't want [TS]

  to associate with those people and then [TS]

  you for you even though you watch Star [TS]

  Wars a lot and you loved it [TS]

  you're not going to wear the Star Wars [TS]

  shirt to school or admit that you really [TS]

  like Star Wars you may like it even more [TS]

  than that geeky guy just because you [TS]

  know that would push you down and social [TS]

  standing and and that's why all these [TS]

  people didn't like it did you say bad at [TS]

  high school [TS]

  yes I've actually been surprised by how [TS]

  many of my girlfriend's her sister who [TS]

  were so former sorority sisters [TS]

  I've been surprised at how many of them [TS]

  are completely fluent Star Trek The Next [TS]

  Generation like I know a lot of women [TS]

  who know that show inside and out who [TS]

  are like the were the last people you [TS]

  think of his geeky and yet they can [TS]

  discourse at length on different [TS]

  Starfleet captains and rank them in [TS]

  order of preference and it's just it's [TS]

  delightful you know without that was one [TS]

  of my that was one of those those [TS]

  moments where I realized that that that [TS]

  geekiness was not was not a lonely [TS]

  pursuit anymore was that in college we [TS]

  had groups of people who watch I [TS]

  remember I remember going to basically a [TS]

  party for the Deep Space nine Premier [TS]

  where they were like 21 when hero land [TS]

  and it was like more than half women and [TS]

  everybody's like cheering about [TS]

  you-know-what Picard appears his cameo [TS]

  or whatever and that was when I realized [TS]

  wow this is not you know me in my room [TS]

  by myself watching Star Trek this is [TS]

  life everything happens uniform in my [TS]

  well he never had a captain's uniform [TS]

  sadly but my parents did by me and [TS]

  enterprise from the Franklin Mint who [TS]

  which i still have when I was a grad [TS]

  school I shared a house with six other [TS]

  people and two of them were going [TS]

  through the MBA program and they were [TS]

  also heading up the rowing team on the [TS]

  MBA program so you're talking about two [TS]

  incredibly athletic very specific [TS]

  stereotypical beast be school students [TS]

  and there was a math PhD who is kind of [TS]

  not really living in this world because [TS]

  he was living in his beautiful numbers [TS]

  planet and an architect and engineer and [TS]

  a recent Russian me great and I and we [TS]

  would get together every Sunday night [TS]

  and watch Star Trek The Next Generation [TS]

  to get it was like this big family [TS]

  dinner type thing we cook for each other [TS]

  and sit down and bear in mind we barely [TS]

  had two things to say to each other the [TS]

  rest of the week but every Sunday night [TS]

  come hell or high water all of us were [TS]

  sitting in that living room with our [TS]

  plates balance in our laps talking all [TS]

  the way through the show and watching it [TS]

  was just this really social experience [TS]

  exaggerated was a was a real it was the [TS]

  perfect show for that and it was really [TS]

  had a broadening effect of you know [TS]

  because people star trek permeated the [TS]

  culture a lot with the that the reruns [TS]

  have been out there for all that time [TS]

  and kids have grown up with them and [TS]

  then there were the movies and it was [TS]

  the way the show was done you know it [TS]

  was it wasn't really heavily serialize [TS]

  it was really pretty accessible the [TS]

  characters where you could get the [TS]

  characters and it was a good show and I [TS]

  think you put all those things together [TS]

  and end and a lot of people even now you [TS]

  mentioned Star Trek The Next Generation [TS]

  and people are like oh yeah they can't [TS]

  take off episodes and it's kind of [TS]

  amazing how broad that show ended up [TS]

  being a bronze reach was oh yeah but [TS]

  that isn't isn't the difference between [TS]

  so and i don't know if this turn up i [TS]

  think it's an artificial difference but [TS]

  he patent as well as making a difference [TS]

  between pop culture and geek culture [TS]

  right i think the only difference is [TS]

  that of how deep you go into something [TS]

  right so you can be you can enjoy Star [TS]

  Trek and that maybe a geeky thing unto [TS]

  itself but I don't think liking star [TS]

  trek is Kiki but [TS]

  really like I have behind me 6,000 star [TS]

  trek the collectible card game cards [TS]

  that is kinky so if i said to you well [TS]

  you know not only do i liked the episode [TS]

  where the card is trapped on the alien [TS]

  planet with the other captain but then i [TS]

  say well it's Darmok it's like okay [TS]

  that's another level and I say well you [TS]

  know the alien captain was played by [TS]

  paul winfield who also played the [TS]

  captain of the reliant and start to the [TS]

  wrath of khan i said and i already knew [TS]

  that so we heard around the whole [TS]

  example and written by German oski who [TS]

  ended up being a producer and star trek [TS]

  voyager which was not a very good show [TS]

  by the way but other limits because what [TS]

  you're talking about these different [TS]

  levels of involvement but if it's [TS]

  Twilight we're talking about where [TS]

  there's somebody who's gone through [TS]

  harry potter right and one of the one of [TS]

  the recurring members of our little [TS]

  podcast crew here wrote Harry Potter [TS]

  fanfiction I mean that's not her prop [TS]

  Potter is a passive mainstream success [TS]

  twilight is a massive success but [TS]

  there's a major amount of geekery the [TS]

  gloves on but the thing is up and maybe [TS]

  hearing groping toward a unified theory [TS]

  one of the things about decrease i'll [TS]

  cut always comes back to it seems like [TS]

  the subject that tend to attract geeks [TS]

  tend to have incredibly consistent [TS]

  internal rules in order and if you take [TS]

  a look at harry potter you're talking [TS]

  about a woman who filled up notebooks [TS]

  and spend about 10 years thinking about [TS]

  this university ahead while she was [TS]

  riding it and has spread spreadsheets [TS]

  for God's sake where she brought out [TS]

  chronology of people's genealogies and [TS]

  what happened after the books and things [TS]

  like that so she had this universe with [TS]

  incredibly consistent internal histories [TS]

  and rules and I think for for geeks be [TS]

  able to decode that and saying I [TS]

  understand the universe was created by [TS]

  somebody else is is part of the appeal [TS]

  so what I'm wondering is if you can say [TS]

  well this person is really to twilight [TS]

  but they're never ever gonna be geeky [TS]

  about twilight because it doesn't have [TS]

  the same baseline get criteria of a [TS]

  complicated internal system that can [TS]

  still be grasped by outsiders or it [TS]

  doesn't have the same you know [TS]

  entry-level code phrases or or knowledge [TS]

  that that people exchange to figure out [TS]

  who's in and who's not [TS]

  I basically want to have some things are [TS]

  just never going to be key no matter [TS]

  your level of engagement is 22 yeah well [TS]

  this is the same twilight is a shallow [TS]

  book series and i'll agree [TS]

  how's that just think this statement is [TS]

  there any world building and then [TS]

  writing like you know a trashy teenage [TS]

  romance vampire book [TS]

  yeah there's only you can only dig so [TS]

  deep that you hit the bottom of the [TS]

  things right and so that if this depth [TS]

  then you can get into it so don't bring [TS]

  ski career away maybe I mean just think [TS]

  of it we're talking about like you know [TS]

  if you are the star trek casual start [TS]

  water or the star trek geek sports is [TS]

  the best example because everybody some [TS]

  kind of sports fan like it just vaguely [TS]

  Oh pick a team from your hometown I'm a [TS]

  Red Sox fan or whatever but that goes so [TS]

  deep in terms of like can you name the [TS]

  RAS of the of the last 27 starting [TS]

  pictures of your favorite team people [TS]

  can rattle that like that rabbit hole [TS]

  goes way down farther than you know [TS]

  Perry potter father even talking [TS]

  anything like that because sports has [TS]

  been around forever in there so much to [TS]

  know I don't know about to further the [TS]

  dumb and Tolkien actually well you do [TS]

  that said that hold still pretty forward [TS]

  to think about how many years have you [TS]

  been playing baseball in this country [TS]

  and how many stats there are in every [TS]

  single one of those players and [TS]

  screaming like a management moves and [TS]

  trades and just like there's just [TS]

  there's just too many numbers on it so [TS]

  much it's not just the numbers to John [TS]

  it with baseball you've got the there's [TS]

  like the society for american baseball [TS]

  research and there's this group called [TS]

  retro see retro sheet and they actually [TS]

  do things like pull out the microfilm [TS]

  from newspapers from the eighteen [TS]

  hundreds and and piece together [TS]

  play-by-play of games that didn't have [TS]

  modern box scores and everything so it's [TS]

  so it's yeah you can't just make stuff [TS]

  up they have to go off reality talking [TS]

  at least could do world-building any [TS]

  just make stuff like they they're saying [TS]

  we've got hundreds of years of actual [TS]

  history of every single out and every [TS]

  single game and every single player and [TS]

  what they did and what you can know [TS]

  about them in the drama's between the [TS]

  teams and moving teams from states [TS]

  there's no fanfic and baseball they [TS]

  realize fantasy baseball you know this [TS]

  no I want to grab these people from this [TS]

  team and put the Great's of every error [TS]

  combined but you know there was no [TS]

  designated hitter but the pictures are [TS]

  allowed to use tools that makes it that [TS]

  makes a really great point because while [TS]

  I've been sitting here detailing off [TS]

  ways which I was an incredibly geeky [TS]

  person in high school which I'm sure [TS]

  comes as no surprise to anybody [TS]

  one of the other things that I did in [TS]

  high school was I was in a dice baseball [TS]

  league and we played we have a league we [TS]

  have players it was based on a game [TS]

  called sports illustrated baseball [TS]

  but it was all you had little player [TS]

  cards and you had died so i didn't have [TS]

  dnd but I had fake baseball and we would [TS]

  play at lunchtime and we will play [TS]

  baseball games and so that was a sports [TS]

  geeky thing but if you took the sports [TS]

  part out of it why couldn't it have been [TS]

  does the Dragons except i was Babe Ruth [TS]

  instead of you know paladin with my plus [TS]

  2 sword now you'll find that the group [TS]

  the rule set is very flexible you can [TS]

  apply it to baseball easily excellent [TS]

  driver to make a saving throw to catch [TS]

  the the line drive [TS]

  I'm sure someone has made a role-playing [TS]

  game based on baseball collectible card [TS]

  game it's true [TS]

  google google it but if I google it [TS]

  patton oswalt will be mad at me all the [TS]

  potential baseball cards of course [TS]

  you've cracked the otaku how dare you [TS]

  break into their perfect seal world [TS]

  yeah I don't know I I can come back that [TS]

  I know how seriously i can take any of [TS]

  that because 50-percent through the [TS]

  article goes off into just a comedy [TS]

  routine [TS]

  yes so happy so can you take the first [TS]

  part seriously at all it's almost like [TS]

  just like this elaborate setup you know [TS]

  I think that was an interesting question [TS]

  even if he's not entirely taking it [TS]

  seriously right i mean that the i was [TS]

  fascinated by the idea that you know our [TS]

  our our geeky things geeky because [TS]

  nobody cares about them you know or not [TS]

  and it hasn't been as the internet [TS]

  ruined being a geek which I don't think [TS]

  is true but i think it's an interesting [TS]

  question the whole article can see it [TS]

  could be summed up with get off my lawn [TS]

  right you did anybody has any key didn't [TS]

  commit to that it's more like a troll [TS]

  it's like make something that I know [TS]

  will get people riled up because i [TS]

  myself don't agree with it and then [TS]

  continue on to my comedy routine its its [TS]

  its form like a pretty classic internet [TS]

  troll anywhere i just don't get the [TS]

  feeling that he believes any of it but [TS]

  he says ridiculous controversial things [TS]

  that will get people riled up and then [TS]

  just never minus the comedy routine so [TS]

  John zombie spaceship or wasteland [TS]

  yeah that is my question here we have to [TS]

  go around the room I you know you should [TS]

  know which one I am apocalypse [TS]

  understand so you're on the team that [TS]

  did the territory of the pyro everyone [TS]

  but me most is have you read the road [TS]

  speaking of mainstream posted it could [TS]

  be argued as being shandra the road is a [TS]

  great great book it dark [TS]

  whoo boy it but I love it but you know [TS]

  that's a mainstream that was an open [TS]

  book club selection book that is in it [TS]

  you cannot say that it's not you know [TS]

  science fiction essentially writer or [TS]

  of that kind of thing right now it could [TS]

  have used some quote characters i [TS]

  thought well Cormac McCarthy rights in [TS]

  the way that he writes he doesn't know [TS]

  comment that got an open little club [TS]

  because they don't dwell on the science [TS]

  fiction topic and it's more of a [TS]

  character study and that stuff is this [TS]

  background so it gets wise people is [TS]

  people radar because they're not [TS]

  interested in what happened to the world [TS]

  where is the sci-fi fan like if you want [TS]

  to tell me about the world now i will [TS]

  accept the chapter of exposition but it [TS]

  never comes [TS]

  if I was ok with I mean I i love that it [TS]

  was just in a different world are you [TS]

  know I like to understanding that we [TS]

  have a high tolerance for that type of [TS]

  thing whereas over the book club who [TS]

  just wants to you know see the wrenching [TS]

  human drama happens you know Dan more'n [TS]

  because we have to mention him even if [TS]

  he has another podcast he's written two [TS]

  books of a I think trilogy hopefully [TS]

  Oprah fanfiction that our witness that [TS]

  are open fanfic city has gonna admit the [TS]

  restaurant the post-apocalyptic [TS]

  landscape yeah it's over and the [TS]

  post-apocalypse tears are real future [TS]

  don't kid yourself that's right it's [TS]

  Oprah why we overthrow Oprah and create [TS]

  the apocalypse that's how that happens [TS]

  but no dance written a couple novels [TS]

  that are in an apocalyptic wasteland so [TS]

  you should heat you see you feel well [TS]

  he'll let you look at him [TS]

  although being hypocritical you might [TS]

  you might be afraid I've asked a few [TS]

  times he doesn't want ah ok fair enough [TS]

  just for you Scott yeah there's a couple [TS]

  people but yeah yeah I feel honored that [TS]

  saw zombie spaceship wasteland Scott did [TS]

  you just call me Zod me I mean before I [TS]

  i think it's obviously i am a spaceship [TS]

  you are a spaceship [TS]

  I have a spaceship come aboard the [TS]

  feeling I was gonna put you on an [TS]

  apocalypse after all your tales of anti [TS]

  social gaming behavior with geeks but [TS]

  maybe that's just one aspect of your [TS]

  life that I am I am only that mean when [TS]

  I am Adi app or a player I guess play or [TS]

  doing anything in my life [TS]

  really it's a spaceship spaceship [TS]

  faraway places and adventures on world's [TS]

  not before seeing i guess i don't know i [TS]

  don't even know if I am I think I'm [TS]

  against this classification is what i'm [TS]

  trying to say well i think i need to [TS]

  have a better definition says we heard [TS]

  what the the spaceship one was [TS]

  apocalypse when I just guessed that is [TS]

  that you want to run instead [TS]

  it's closed society has broken down the [TS]

  after scape has happened and your job is [TS]

  to run the landscape avoiding the [TS]

  avoiding the bands of people who want [TS]

  petrol and empty house last how is that [TS]

  not zombie go [TS]

  how is that different from zombie I [TS]

  believe zombie is that everybody else is [TS]

  a zombie and it's you versus nature [TS]

  whereas apocalypse is there's nothing [TS]

  you're on your own you it's it's it's [TS]

  it's you looking around at the broken [TS]

  carcass of society and laughing [TS]

  maniacally to yourself as you master it [TS]

  oh that was that was my take so at least [TS]

  a job [TS]

  zombie spaceship or wasteland well I you [TS]

  know I've actually thought about this [TS]

  question since reading the original [TS]

  essay and I was the kid who really loved [TS]

  the mist mixed-up files of basil leaf [TS]

  miss Battley frankweiler because of the [TS]

  fantasy of living in a museum like when [TS]

  I was little I used to fantasize that [TS]

  someday I come all ye everybody out my [TS]

  can live in the Smithsonian and then i [TS]

  will admit the stand is beach reading [TS]

  because I kind of love with a plague in [TS]

  the world empties out we'll see what [TS]

  happens when an apocalypse person with [TS]

  me [TS]

  definitely because the stand was my [TS]

  first favorite book [TS]

  oh my god I love that book still um but [TS]

  I have to admit there's actually also [TS]

  something tremendously appealing about [TS]

  the whole spaceship I've stopped my [TS]

  little vessel and i'm off in search of [TS]

  new adventures Astrodome [TS]

  yes so step one is just a spaceship it [TS]

  slammer [TS]

  that's right it's a broken spaceship as [TS]

  cheesy as it sounds as cheesy as it [TS]

  sounds I think having a baby may have [TS]

  actually shifted me from the the [TS]

  wasteland metaphor over to the spaceship [TS]

  metaphor possible because I feel better [TS]

  about putting a baby on a spaceship than [TS]

  i do strapping her to my back and movie [TS]

  across the wasteland she could end up a [TS]

  Superman you know that's what happens [TS]

  when you put a baby on a spaceship [TS]

  anything can happen [TS]

  that's true so Jason Jason are you a [TS]

  zombie a spaceship or whatever the other [TS]

  one was we always manage to police i [TS]

  want i think i'm on the spaceship I i [TS]

  I'm on the spaceship like i said is that [TS]

  a Zeppelin is just a spaceship that [TS]

  hasn't reached orbit yet but definitely [TS]

  the I would i wrote a piece for the late [TS]

  great website TV that we used to do [TS]

  about [TS]

  about Star Gate when it first came on [TS]

  and that that's a franchise that as many [TS]

  do degraded over time but one of the [TS]

  class stargate universe one of it one of [TS]

  the things I was a stargate universe is [TS]

  better than the other spin-off but and [TS]

  john scalzi was involved and I like his [TS]

  book so I charitable toward it but um uh [TS]

  huh but the original stargate what I [TS]

  loved about it was something that I felt [TS]

  like even start record lost after they [TS]

  built up too much of the universe and [TS]

  you weren't out on the fringes anymore [TS]

  which was with stargate just had that [TS]

  barest of and there's no spaceship by [TS]

  the way but still it had that idea that [TS]

  they turn this device on and you took a [TS]

  step through it and you're on another [TS]

  planet and you didn't know what [TS]

  adventure way to do there and you've [TS]

  never been there before and I that is [TS]

  tremendously appealing that was the [TS]

  thing you know that show ended up being [TS]

  there's a conspiracy and a government [TS]

  bureaucracy and all these just things [TS]

  that just destroy they did get a [TS]

  spaceship at one point just terrible but [TS]

  but when it was the purity of just you [TS]

  know we've got a gadget that will let us [TS]

  step through to other planets and we'll [TS]

  have adventures there i love that that [TS]

  that kind of pure concept and anything [TS]

  that includes MacGyver house but not [TS]

  sliders and MacGyver yes and when it had [TS]

  over sliders and also here's the here's [TS]

  another thing that was great about the [TS]

  slightest well-shot sliders cheesier [TS]

  than Stargate my wife loves Stargate and [TS]

  i've only seen one episode of stargate [TS]

  and I thought it was awful but when told [TS]

  that i saw a bad episode so it's i would [TS]

  say that at least half of them are awful [TS]

  because the show lasted like ten years [TS]

  and only the first five were really any [TS]

  good i saw where they traveled back to [TS]

  the sixties or something and yeah future [TS]

  podcast top equation talking about sighs [TS]

  sci-fi actors and why some actors are [TS]

  permanently left in in the sci-fi [TS]

  circuit yellow these names yeah well [TS]

  have been speaking of stargate because [TS]

  you ended up with the characters from [TS]

  the actress from farscape first game [TS]

  against a woman show and bed router and [TS]

  claudia black both ended up on Stargate [TS]

  and I felt like really you know Brett [TS]

  been prouder I thought he was a really [TS]

  good leading man and he knew kind of [TS]

  never made aware as you have nathan [TS]

  fillion got out of the ghetto and is now [TS]

  oh I castle [TS]

  yeah or or add involved one who's going [TS]

  on [TS]

  get out his shows right castles you love [TS]

  cast literature you think he got out of [TS]

  a ghetto I think he would her into all [TS]

  the worse getting a little worse [TS]

  neighborhood would you rather be on a [TS]

  hit sci-fi show with a cult following or [TS]

  a like c-grade nobody watches it [TS]

  it's not a nobody or no i don't watch [TS]

  Cassie's on the velvet here its [TS]

  development often John he's castle heaps [TS]

  castles got ratings that keeps getting [TS]

  renewed and you know what that means [TS]

  that means nathan fillion is good [TS]

  pretty soon he's gonna have enough money [TS]

  to buy the rights to find it wasn't [TS]

  receiving over loves procedures [TS]

  yeah well Adam Baldwin sort of bounced [TS]

  in and out because you know people were [TS]

  like oh it's animal mother and then he [TS]

  was in firefly in there he's on shop [TS]

  which is kind of geeky show but it's a [TS]

  big step down compared those characters [TS]

  that make sense before compare these two [TS]

  characters which is the better character [TS]

  if you were an actor would you be [TS]

  happier playing Jane or playing whatever [TS]

  the heck that guy seemed as on Chuck [TS]

  Casey I'm Casey see this is hard because [TS]

  they get and I feel like this is geek [TS]

  heresy we're getting off the podcast i'm [TS]

  not a huge firefly fans so it's hard by [TS]

  us either last is over his pocket but [TS]

  two out of four people agree [TS]

  fire/5 not so good if oh I'm wounded [TS]

  Firefly is not bet that by good I've [TS]

  always suspected that if they're like a [TS]

  league of lady geek side be kicked out [TS]

  just because I've never really connected [TS]

  with any weed and stuff but you know [TS]

  it's about it'sit's i would also be [TS]

  kicked out of the leading league of lady [TS]

  cakes for the same reason for just that [TS]

  reason just that really the reason [TS]

  picture [TS]

  yeah because there's this new i see are [TS]

  you guys aware that there's a site [TS]

  called the Mary Sue that just launched [TS]

  its supposed to be a celebration of [TS]

  women and geeks and geeky lady culture i [TS]

  have not heard about yeah it's called [TS]

  it's called the Mary Sue and and this it [TS]

  actually ties into this topic because I [TS]

  get the sense it's trying very hard in a [TS]

  way yeah but I think there's something [TS]

  to the case that there is a sort of new [TS]

  generation of of women i mean i alluded [TS]

  to that point with doctor who i've [TS]

  introduced lots of women friends of mine [TS]

  to the new doctor who and they've [TS]

  generally loved it and it's a lot looked [TS]

  a lot of the same people who love Buffy [TS]

  and and you know part of that is my just [TS]

  shocked that there [TS]

  are women watching Jean Run shows [TS]

  because of course when I was in high [TS]

  school we hello girls anywhere LOL yeah [TS]

  so but I so I think there is something [TS]

  to that in fact the point now where I [TS]

  think there is a probably a whole [TS]

  subculture of of woman oriented geeky [TS]

  stuff and and knowing you Lisa I'm not [TS]

  surprised that you might kind of lifts [TS]

  an eyebrow at some of that stuff [TS]

  probably play and it i think it's [TS]

  probably just maybe a function of age [TS]

  get off my lawn [TS]

  if what is so great about everybody's [TS]

  logs that they don't want people if they [TS]

  are our lawns not you're so get off [TS]

  we've mastered the 1i know where every I [TS]

  know the history of every kind of blade [TS]

  of grass cuts on it I think I think I [TS]

  think the objection i have to too [TS]

  self-consciously positioning lady [TS]

  cassandra is I is it's using jet it's [TS]

  using jet genders a differentiator and [TS]

  the reason I object to that is because [TS]

  you're instantly setting it up where if [TS]

  a not be one-half there they're working [TS]

  in opposition to each other so that [TS]

  implies one is better than the other [TS]

  either by virtue of exclusion by virtue [TS]

  of the other I mean it goes back to [TS]

  simone de beauvoir and gender theory and [TS]

  all that and i just have to raise the [TS]

  question why bother gendering your [TS]

  nerves as it were [TS]

  well I'm have scott wants to watch [TS]

  sanctuary on the SyFy channel [TS]

  why should it matter that he's a guy [TS]

  yeah yeah because I have to be honest [TS]

  growing up with that one of the only [TS]

  ways i talk to boys growing up to be [TS]

  honest was was because we could talk [TS]

  about things like Dungeons and Dragons [TS]

  or the science fiction books were [TS]

  already or comic books or things like [TS]

  that um that was that was common ground [TS]

  where I felt comfortable discussing it [TS]

  with him and I would hate to think of [TS]

  this stuff being you know thrown into a [TS]

  gender get out one way or another and it [TS]

  honestly is a five-year-old getting into [TS]

  Star Blazers in battlestar galactica [TS]

  which like air back-to-back on some TV [TS]

  I'll start coming back i think it's [TS]

  going to be on TV again we're going back [TS]

  on TV I hope so I would love to i [TS]

  haven't seen that in years i would love [TS]

  to see how it matches up but it never [TS]

  will never look bored yeah you know it [TS]

  never occurred to me at five that I [TS]

  wasn't supposed to like these shows [TS]

  about her [TS]

  space or or that they were boys or girls [TS]

  shows they were simply think that I was [TS]

  interested in and you kind of [TS]

  uncomfortable with attaching gender [TS]

  labels to it because i feel like you [TS]

  know you're trying you're sticking [TS]

  people in a box or yourself or if you're [TS]

  like all this asset for girl geeks what [TS]

  that suggests is that it's not normal to [TS]

  be a girl who's into geeky things and so [TS]

  youryour either you know as subliminally [TS]

  enhancing this sense of abnormality [TS]

  people have or you're trying to create a [TS]

  sense of anxiety that something is or [TS]

  isn't normal [TS]

  so just trying to cash in on the lady [TS]

  geeks they totally are you chick [TS]

  celebrities that you want for harry [TS]

  potter yeah so that's why this with [TS]

  David Tennant and dr. hill right [TS]

  oh I he doesn't do it for me so maybe I [TS]

  can't connect with that now he well I've [TS]

  got there's a picture on my flickr [TS]

  account of my wife standing in front of [TS]

  his costume but the doctor who [TS]

  experienced lebanon at it and unless [TS]

  your dad your own different ways trucks [TS]

  and mine now [TS]

  different strokes different but I don't [TS]

  think it's I don't think the caster [TS]

  because the ladies like them i really [TS]

  don't want to be good at this so there's [TS]

  something to that if you look at all the [TS]

  shows that that women tend to like it [TS]

  and that obviously I was gonna say [TS]

  before the gender thing about the girl [TS]

  geeks and boy geeks its kind of [TS]

  shorthand is the other way its cause and [TS]

  effect is the other way is that there [TS]

  are things that typically women like a [TS]

  out more than men [TS]

  I you know interpersonal relationships [TS]

  instead of power fantasies or you know [TS]

  just hard sci-fi or whatever dialogue [TS]

  character yet and they take any show [TS]

  that had that has those elements [TS]

  strongly in it and they say oh now this [TS]

  is great this is your girl's fantasy [TS]

  because it doesn't but it's you know it [TS]

  works both ways it guys like that too is [TS]

  just you know it's a continuum of one [TS]

  direction so as soon as you cross over [TS]

  that line of having just too much love [TS]

  interest or too much you know personal [TS]

  drama or emotional stuff and not enough [TS]

  explosions or teleportation or you know [TS]

  stuff like that then it becomes a girl [TS]

  fantasy and then you're like hey we [TS]

  market this and put it in a pink box we [TS]

  can say it's you know it's it's a girl [TS]

  fantasy doing when really it's just a [TS]

  sci-fi story with less one thing and [TS]

  more of another yeah we're just just [TS]

  weed my mean are not to get back to him [TS]

  but you know he's a now he's [TS]

  reputation for being a girl Kate well [TS]

  he's got he's got a feminist message and [TS]

  everything he doesn't have a strong [TS]

  women characters and and that women like [TS]

  his shows and that's that's fine but at [TS]

  the same time you know [TS]

  firefly had great women characters but [TS]

  it with a male lead Buffy had a female [TS]

  lead but as a guy who discovered Buffy [TS]

  there's something for everyone in that [TS]

  show [TS]

  Buffy Buffy not unattractive and many of [TS]

  the other women women on that show where [TS]

  were we were quite attractive and there [TS]

  were male kind of geek wish-fulfillment [TS]

  characters like sander in particular so [TS]

  you know he had something for everyone [TS]

  but and again so why yeah why draw the [TS]

  lines I i do think sometimes it's okay i [TS]

  would say like i'll be at stuff and even [TS]

  firefly because I can almost pushed over [TS]

  into if you have to label them girl get [TS]

  your geek you label them girl geek [TS]

  because all those shows were about human [TS]

  drama and not about like firefly wasn't [TS]

  about what made the spaceship fly or [TS]

  what kind of technology was going on or [TS]

  what happened to the universe that was [TS]

  all just background was it was [TS]

  completely a character drama and buffing [TS]

  was like you weren't really interested [TS]

  that much in like a no vampires how do [TS]

  they work was the character drama [TS]

  coming-of-age story so those you have [TS]

  you had two categories and you'd have to [TS]

  call them girl geek luckily they didn't [TS]

  do that but you can see some cynical [TS]

  person wrapping these up and saying oh [TS]

  you know like twilight was heavily [TS]

  marketed because there's like nothing in [TS]

  there for the guys you know so that's [TS]

  that's obviously way over the other side [TS]

  of the spectrum but it's more of a [TS]

  marketing decision i think then saying [TS]

  all guys aren't going to like firefly [TS]

  because it's all about these [TS]

  relationships no guys love it you know [TS]

  they like all that stuff to write but I [TS]

  was the accusation you know Russell [TS]

  Russell Davis got about a doctor who is [TS]

  that there are lots of bitter [TS]

  forty-year-old or 40 or 50 year old [TS]

  doctor who fans from the old days you [TS]

  said I'm tired of seeing all this soap [TS]

  opera and soap opera was code for [TS]

  characters with actual life thoughts and [TS]

  emotional resources yeah and another in [TS]

  a backstory and a family and a life and [TS]

  they're like I don't want that I went [TS]

  bedded rubber suits like what you get [TS]

  famous just stand around and look pretty [TS]

  it's doctor who you'll get the robot men [TS]

  and rubber seals have feelings but [TS]

  you're gonna put your memory and do they [TS]

  not bleed rubber they have feelings but [TS]

  they don't backstories will we be sad if [TS]

  they died that that would be extending [TS]

  our feelings to be brought up [TS]

  I don't want to be sad when they kill [TS]

  the monster I just want them to kill the [TS]

  monster exam [TS]

  alright what have we learned we learned [TS]

  anything or did we just go around Big [TS]

  Sur patton oswalt is wrong [TS]

  ok no one agrees no one agrees with [TS]

  anything in the article i think it's the [TS]

  class now I i do think that we can agree [TS]

  that the article was geeky in the sense [TS]

  that you know once again you have a geek [TS]

  who's attempting to put a framework [TS]

  around something because it's a it's a [TS]

  handy way of understanding the world so [TS]

  we just integrate the framework i think [TS]

  it was trolling in controlling is very [TS]

  geeky given that [TS]

  yeah yeah or maybe it was a way to [TS]

  promote this book I mean we talked about [TS]

  zombie invasion place Landers got to I'm [TS]

  sure was a way to promote this book but [TS]

  I know it was you know it was it with [TS]

  provocative and even if it was silly and [TS]

  devolved [TS]

  devolved [TS]

  into a wacky wacky comedy routine which [TS]

  I you know I didn't think it was kind of [TS]

  funny that in the end of the only comic [TS]

  book that remains is Steve goes around [TS]

  on shade the changing man I mean that's [TS]

  funny in a way but it's you know not [TS]

  particularly deep that's ok he sold some [TS]

  books right I didn't buy his book he's [TS]

  got all that he saw one bookcase he's [TS]

  got all that ratatouille money to fall [TS]

  back on [TS]

  exactly right kids if you like [TS]

  ratatouille don't listen to Patton [TS]

  Oswalt's comedy by the way [TS]

  yeah dad that's something I was going to [TS]

  mention early on is is those are very [TS]

  separate spheres no don't don't listen [TS]

  to the Patton Oswalt of here if you're a [TS]

  kid who likes funnier at movies i [TS]

  recommend i recommend the secret of him [TS]

  if you like like fighting rodent themed [TS]

  kids movies and you should check out [TS]

  George Carlin stand up if you like road [TS]

  themed movies and on that note i am [TS]

  going to declare this a zombie wasteland [TS]

  Chloe look spectacular space images we [TS]

  fled to the spaceship and left the [TS]

  zombie wasteland behind so until next [TS]

  time i'd like to thank my delightful [TS]

  guess this was a lot of fun [TS]

  Lisa thank you and thanks for suggesting [TS]

  the topic well I had fun with everybody [TS]

  i was placed to podcast with people John [TS]

  siracusa thank you for being here as [TS]

  well pleasure as always [TS]

  yes great having you and Scott McNulty [TS]

  thank you very much you made me laugh [TS]

  again thank you Jason you will always be [TS]

  my lady geek until next time on the [TS]

  incomparable podcast this is jason smell [TS]

  signing off thanks for listening [TS]

  [Music] [TS]