The Incomparable

29: Magic Fridge


  controllable contest after sold 29-20 [TS]

  LMAO welcome back to the uncomfortable [TS]

  podcast i am your host Daniel one [TS]

  sitting in for Jason's now who for once [TS]

  has not read the book that is the [TS]

  subject of our talk tonight [TS]

  now who is illiterate anyways i'm joined [TS]

  by a gallery of rogues as you might say [TS]

  we have Scott McNulty I Scott hello and [TS]

  John siracusa hi John [TS]

  hello everybody and the three of us are [TS]

  here convening this sort of ad hoc [TS]

  meeting at the book club to talk about [TS]

  Patrick Rothfuss 'as debut fantasy novel [TS]

  from 2007 so you know where we're a [TS]

  little bit behind time I guess it's hot [TS]

  off the presses the name of the wind and [TS]

  part of the reason we're talking about [TS]

  it now is that the books sequel The Wise [TS]

  Man's Fear just came out what two weeks [TS]

  ago or so [TS]

  alright so we're we're here to sort of [TS]

  wet your appetite [TS]

  if you have not read this series well be [TS]

  aware that we are going to have some [TS]

  spoilers from the first book we're going [TS]

  to try to avoid spoilers from the second [TS]

  book we haven't all finished reading it [TS]

  I think Scott's finish it i'm about [TS]

  halfway through John however you like [TS]

  ten percent i'm a celeb rater it's a [TS]

  it's a long book to it is a half diva [TS]

  it's a lot of its a lot of kindle dots I [TS]

  don't know what that means but well the [TS]

  first one was no was no short one either [TS]

  so let's let's just dive right I'm just [TS]

  gonna have a heads fire off the spoiler [TS]

  harm right now for anybody who has not [TS]

  read the name of the way this podcast is [TS]

  going to be one probably fairly large [TS]

  boiler for this [TS]

  we will at the end reveal the name of [TS]

  the wind it's it's bob bob bob is the [TS]

  name of the wind up with how hard was [TS]

  that I could have been a lot shorter [TS]

  book very short book two pages so too [TS]

  let's get a little low overview of the [TS]

  plot of the name of the wind now this is [TS]

  a fantasy book in some ways I think what [TS]

  would interested me about it is that [TS]

  well it has some of the tropes of your [TS]

  traditional fantasy book it also feels [TS]

  not entirely like you know your standard [TS]

  fantasy book I think he plays with some [TS]

  of the conventions which is nice [TS]

  it's the story of a man named clothes [TS]

  job on that could yeah thanks y'all I [TS]

  mean he does a good job of pointing out [TS]

  in somewhere in the book I think what [TS]

  the pronunciation is at some point the [TS]

  air corrects somebody a man named for [TS]

  both who is kind of a legendary hero and [TS]

  the other thing I really love about the [TS]

  book is that the layering of the stories [TS]

  in that we get the bulk of it through [TS]

  coat size like he's relating this story [TS]

  and it's being written down by another [TS]

  man who subscribe and so you know we [TS]

  have it it's all sort of tinged with his [TS]

  memory of how he came to be this [TS]

  legendary hero but in that ad that adds [TS]

  this interesting this interesting [TS]

  dynamic because we also have this [TS]

  framing story in which he's doing [TS]

  relating and it's also there's some [TS]

  other stuff going on with you know the [TS]

  way that the the world is this fantasy [TS]

  world is going which is to say not very [TS]

  not very well I don't know if there's a [TS]

  good way of summing up sort of what the [TS]

  what the plot of name of the wind is [TS]

  though I don't you guys either of you [TS]

  have sort of like a like a pity one word [TS]

  sentence summary or something because I [TS]

  would have trouble wrapping up in that [TS]

  what the plot is if you take out the [TS]

  whole device of the [TS]

  the kind of suddenly a bookend but you [TS]

  know the kind of flashback story it's [TS]

  fairly straightforward right at the the [TS]

  otha is that a psychopath [TS]

  he is born have a gypsy right and so is [TS]

  peace his parents are traveling [TS]

  entertainers and he's in this troop and [TS]

  threw he has some adventures and he [TS]

  loves his parents and he meets some guy [TS]

  who can name things and does went to the [TS]

  University which is this the one school [TS]

  in this world I guess where people find [TS]

  out [TS]

  arcane things and by the way that's good [TS]

  they're having a lot of spoilers in this [TS]

  one sentence [TS]

  huh [TS]

  [Music] [TS]

  and then just passed get killed by these [TS]

  with a whole troop gets killed by these [TS]

  mysterious yeah kind of fairytale beings [TS]

  that comical everyone except for Devon [TS]

  third whatever the hell his name is [TS]

  because he's out in the forest or [TS]

  something and so he comes back you find [TS]

  everyone dead he's very sad he goes to a [TS]

  city he lives as a street urchin for a [TS]

  couple of years and then he meets [TS]

  somebody who inspires him to go to the [TS]

  University himself he's accepted to the [TS]

  University he's a shockingly he's a [TS]

  stellar student at the University he has [TS]

  great aptitude he meets a rich guy who [TS]

  is doesn't like him because he's poor [TS]

  and he knows a lot more than rich guy [TS]

  and there you go that's a bit more than [TS]

  one sentence but but it is a reason on [TS]

  said it was it with yeah that's a bit of [TS]

  a comma splice yeah but I think you get [TS]

  did a good job of telling you know sort [TS]

  of hitting the high notes there I but [TS]

  you know it's not necessarily because [TS]

  this is the first book in a series you [TS]

  know obviously we don't get like [TS]

  everything you know this is only the [TS]

  first a part of the art like we service [TS]

  were sort of in the name of the when [TS]

  you're getting his rise but not [TS]

  necessarily you know the middle or the [TS]

  end of the story although you get the [TS]

  impression from the framing story where [TS]

  we having both relate this to his his [TS]

  scribe that he's sort of come down in [TS]

  the world instead since the frame store [TS]

  he's an innkeeper and there is some [TS]

  suggestion later on at least towards the [TS]

  end of the book that he'd these powers [TS]

  these amazing powers which made him this [TS]

  legendary hero are no longer available [TS]

  to him but it was like I said one of the [TS]

  things I really like about it is the [TS]

  sort of the layering of the stories [TS]

  there i don't know if there was [TS]

  something in particular they cut you [TS]

  guys in terms of why you find this [TS]

  assuming you you you like to the book [TS]

  what about it caught your attention and [TS]

  sort of set it apart for you [TS]

  well I I have a confession to make i was [TS]

  a very enthusiastic about doing this [TS]

  show this book on the podcast most [TS]

  people just want to be on a book podcast [TS]

  and you guys read books way too fast for [TS]

  me and I already read this one side [TS]

  it was a great opportunity so you would [TS]

  think I'd be a all set to say lots of [TS]

  wonderful things about this book but in [TS]

  fact i come here not to praise this book [TS]

  but area [TS]

  oh but it and yet you are reading the [TS]

  second one though so that's an injured [TS]

  if you didn't like the first one [TS]

  yeah so I heard about this book I [TS]

  remember her through the internet and I [TS]

  hadn't read a fantasy book in a long [TS]

  time and people are making a lot of [TS]

  noise about the you know this new guides [TS]

  his first book it's a great facebook you [TS]

  should read it so I said fine I'll give [TS]

  it a try and i started reading it and [TS]

  the reason i'm reading the sequel and [TS]

  the reason I'm part of the reason things [TS]

  anyways there were a lot of things to [TS]

  recommend this book I guess I'll start [TS]

  before i start shredding at the bits [TS]

  with my favorite parts of the book my [TS]

  favorite parts about you guys touching a [TS]

  lot of them already won i really like [TS]

  the the whole magic system in the world [TS]

  that the idea of sympathy and that's [TS]

  kind of like the the lame magic where [TS]

  you can't really do anything too [TS]

  exciting and everything is kind of [TS]

  balance by semi physical forces and then [TS]

  there's like the real magic where you [TS]

  have that where you're naming things and [TS]

  that's much more mysterious and not as [TS]

  commonplace that whole mechanism and I [TS]

  takes up a lot of the beginning part of [TS]

  the book that that stuff I like I [TS]

  thought it was interesting and original [TS]

  and a dry like books that do something [TS]

  interesting with the magic system and [TS]

  that pulled me into it but as i was [TS]

  reading the book you know said that God [TS]

  gave a good summary of like gypsy dude [TS]

  big bad thing happens to the beginning [TS]

  of the book everybody killed then his [TS]

  you know down period where he's living [TS]

  in the streets and stuff like that and [TS]

  then sort of his rise up through the [TS]

  university but as I was going through [TS]

  the book in in ebook form i was looking [TS]

  at the little progress meter to a [TS]

  certain point I realized wait a second [TS]

  there's no way they can wrap this up [TS]

  like this is just gonna end I'm going [TS]

  rapidly approaching the end of the book [TS]

  and almost nothing has happened [TS]

  how ya gonna get it is the first book in [TS]

  the series so if that's not that big of [TS]

  a deal but it kind of bothered me a [TS]

  little bit and I was like well you know [TS]

  just keep going to apply the rest of my [TS]

  throat by the time i was done i had a [TS]

  lot a lot of complaints about this book [TS]

  and I couldn't believe people were [TS]

  raving about it is it [TS]

  because this great fantasy novel and [TS]

  maybe that is hadn't read fast and I was [TS]

  in a long time this is actually an [TS]

  excellent example of the genre and I [TS]

  just remember the other ones family [TS]

  because I was a younger person when i [TS]

  read them I don't know but before I go [TS]

  through my list of things can you guys [TS]

  think of anything about the book that [TS]

  you didn't like what do you think I'm [TS]

  gonna complain about besides that the [TS]

  plot stuff that I just did [TS]

  well I for one hit this is another so [TS]

  what's included both is a I can't say [TS]

  his name so i don't like that be [TS]

  ah he's another one of these main [TS]

  characters that is incredibly good at [TS]

  everything right which I find a little [TS]

  annoying everything he tried she like [TS]

  the best flute player in the world that [TS]

  he writes all these songs that everyone [TS]

  knows and he's the best in this class at [TS]

  everything and it gets to be a bit much [TS]

  because he has all these these [TS]

  challenges that are set before him right [TS]

  but you know he's going to successfully [TS]

  overcome them because he's the smartest [TS]

  person in the book he's the most [TS]

  talented freshmen in the book he has the [TS]

  best voice in the book maybe a little [TS]

  flaw here in there wasn't a lot i mean i [TS]

  think i think baby at least i'll counter [TS]

  that by saying that I think that any is [TS]

  definitely true you know he's definitely [TS]

  plays pictured as this character is [TS]

  incredibly clever i like the times when [TS]

  his cleverness doesn't do it for him and [TS]

  he's like he's shown it like getting [TS]

  ahead of himself I think there's a [TS]

  couple of good examples one of which in [TS]

  his sort of read his report a with this [TS]

  he really wants to study under the guy [TS]

  who who is the master of the more [TS]

  esoteric naming magic who is a bit of a [TS]

  was he's crazy I'll put it that way and [TS]

  I think you know that guy in I guess [TS]

  this comes more in the second book but [TS]

  you know that is the sort of the one [TS]

  thing that seems to elude him and I [TS]

  think you know the it illuminates a part [TS]

  of his character where he is not a very [TS]

  he's he's smart but he lacks a bit of [TS]

  common sense he's always doing things in [TS]

  rushing in he's a bit impetuous and [TS]

  sometimes they get him in trouble and i [TS]

  think that's that's sort of what i like [TS]

  about him is that he is as smart as he [TS]

  is he is very often it seems too smart [TS]

  for his own good but perhaps that's just [TS]

  me [TS]

  alright so that was on my list i could [TS]

  expound on morning you guys covered the [TS]

  basic points anything else [TS]

  I let's see what else i didn't like the [TS]

  look i don't know i understand all the [TS]

  things that I i should say that I did in [TS]

  fact enjoy the book was given before I [TS]

  like John's got you on his side he sucks [TS]

  you into the city you tonight as not too [TS]

  hard to turn Scott to the negative side [TS]

  it's true I am generally more [TS]

  predisposed to not liking something so [TS]

  the other thing i did not like is what's [TS]

  the the character and Dina Dana whatever [TS]

  has the the little love interest i found [TS]

  that whole dynamic annoying i don't know [TS]

  if you guys do remember but yeah so so i [TS]

  guess i'm not entirely crazy because [TS]

  that my two of my three pillars of [TS]

  things that didn't like about this book [TS]

  for one the plot but just when / where [TS]

  that it didn't seem like it was going [TS]

  anywhere especially since it had those [TS]

  like side adventures with the Dragon and [TS]

  he's often that town there's the [TS]

  University section was like lots of [TS]

  interconnected short stories but there [TS]

  was no like overall arc and you can even [TS]

  see like the beginning of an arc like [TS]

  where it's going to go because it's the [TS]

  framing stories so far down the road [TS]

  from his various adventures [TS]

  yeah that you just I can't connect the [TS]

  dots yet maybe it's gonna be 20 book [TS]

  series so in which case you know when [TS]

  it's going to be a three-book series [TS]

  will be dead by the time he finishes at [TS]

  this right but that's so the character [TS]

  is another thing you know that the Mary [TS]

  Sue disease that he was that right on [TS]

  the head he's good at everything every [TS]

  woman he meets loves him [TS]

  you know it is flawed yet it's more of [TS]

  like it you know its laws that he's too [TS]

  smart for his own good but i think that [TS]

  that's not a great when you're an [TS]

  interview and they say well what's your [TS]

  greatest weakness I work too hard [TS]

  sometimes I'm just too clever for my own [TS]

  good [TS]

  yeah yeah but the worst part the part [TS]

  that gave me that the worst taste [TS]

  throughout the entire book which it [TS]

  still bothers me is the treatment of [TS]

  women this book should really should [TS]

  have a course and you know creative [TS]

  writing courses of how not to write [TS]

  women because women only exist in this [TS]

  book as sexual objects and every time [TS]

  they come on the scene they are [TS]

  described in terms of their beauty and [TS]

  attractiveness to the character and [TS]

  that's the only value they add even as [TS]

  this den a person or whatever she's [TS]

  she's a horrible person there's nothing [TS]

  to recommend her there's no reason he [TS]

  should be a tractor and anyway but every [TS]

  architects fellow-feeling or whatever [TS]

  like any any female character Debbie [TS]

  that the moneylender anytime they come [TS]

  on the screen so to speak it there [TS]

  immediately described in terms of how [TS]

  attractive they are and very sexual [TS]

  innuendo and if it was done in either an [TS]

  omniscient narrator or first person from [TS]

  the perspective of the young one [TS]

  maybe you could excuse that because [TS]

  that's like maybe 18 year old Sol have [TS]

  AC women you know when you're that age [TS]

  or however old you supposed to be but [TS]

  it's being told by the older wiser one [TS]

  he's the one relaying the tail as I [TS]

  can't come up with any sort of rational [TS]

  explanation for how horrible women are [TS]

  treated in this book and it's just a [TS]

  great sonmi and it's like if we can have [TS]

  any women characters know they only [TS]

  exist as pleasure centers and desire you [TS]

  know tiny pinpoints of desire for the [TS]

  male characters in the book and that [TS]

  more than anything else just like it [TS]

  bothers me immensely i don't know why I [TS]

  bother maybe it was the same and all the [TS]

  other fantasy books i read and i didn't [TS]

  notice but I noticed that a lot in this [TS]

  one [TS]

  well that I mean that'sthat's a I think [TS]

  that's very often a criticism of the [TS]

  fantasy and science fiction genre in [TS]

  general and you know there's obviously [TS]

  could probably spend almost entire [TS]

  podcast discussing why that's the case [TS]

  but we won't dealt too much into scifi [TS]

  find it less because sci-fi friends away [TS]

  i think it really depends on the [TS]

  you-know-what syfy reading but i think [TS]

  that in the in the very like sort of [TS]

  violence a traditional but like you know [TS]

  that's one of the tropes I feel like of [TS]

  science fiction and fantasy [TS]

  well but then again that's problem [TS]

  primarily a male-dominated field i was [TS]

  gonna say like the most damning thing I [TS]

  can say about the women in this book is [TS]

  that talking has better women characters [TS]

  he's got like three thousand facebook at [TS]

  least his characters like least they [TS]

  relate to the world and the other people [TS]

  in the book as something other than [TS]

  sexual objects they have their own [TS]

  motivations their own feelings their own [TS]

  you know agendas and every single one of [TS]

  them isn't immediately described in [TS]

  terms of how they are attracted to or a [TS]

  track or you know drawn towards that the [TS]

  male characters how the male characters [TS]

  drawn to them now that and I don't want [TS]

  to go on playing about this book saying [TS]

  horrible Derek is obviously i'm reading [TS]

  the sequel so it must be something to [TS]

  recommend it [TS]

  and i think the the set the interest of [TS]

  the setting and the fact that the first [TS]

  book didn't go anywhere makes me makes [TS]

  me want to know where it's going like [TS]

  because that they teased you know those [TS]

  those evil guys who kill this whole [TS]

  troop that if we don't know anything [TS]

  about that we spent the whole first book [TS]

  trying to study them but wasn't allowed [TS]

  in the library for the whole book for a [TS]

  name you know bad sitcom reasons if it [TS]

  that's another thing with it right there [TS]

  there are coincidences books that will [TS]

  be clear its situations books will be [TS]

  cleared up with just a simple [TS]

  explanation but you know the master was [TS]

  like nope don't want to hear about it [TS]

  don't wanna hear about any of this yet [TS]

  he gave youcandl no but I don't hear [TS]

  about that all tough luck the rest of [TS]

  the book you're not learn anything about [TS]

  them so i guess what the way to book to [TS]

  learn anything you know it [TS]

  yeah so it [TS]

  things like that are teased and and that [TS]

  keeps me wondering like alright so maybe [TS]

  he's got a really good idea about these [TS]

  guys maybe the overall story is really [TS]

  clever because I've learned so little [TS]

  about it that I'm willing to go on so [TS]

  i'll read the second book and still [TS]

  nothing happens the end of the second [TS]

  book i'll probably start to get [TS]

  frustrated you will start to get [TS]

  frustrated [TS]

  yeah i mean the thing is that the fast [TS]

  read like all these things that are [TS]

  wrong with it [TS]

  they are typical the fantasy genre and i [TS]

  find that you know it's a fast read and [TS]

  you don't have doesn't take too much [TS]

  mental energy to read through it and [TS]

  people like reading about these sort of [TS]

  power fantasy books where the guy's [TS]

  wonderful couldn't everything and he is [TS]

  opposed by unfair forces of like the [TS]

  rich guy picking on the poor guy or he [TS]

  always needs money we can all relate to [TS]

  that and you know but he's really clever [TS]

  and good stuff so he overcomes it you [TS]

  know it's it's a easy to digest story [TS]

  they could probably made into an [TS]

  interesting movie that would be easy to [TS]

  digest but it's not it's not sort of an [TS]

  adult sophisticate story I feel like [TS]

  yeah i mean there there's certainly [TS]

  something to be said that in that the [TS]

  you know the plot the obstacles that he [TS]

  faces are are fairly mundane it seems [TS]

  like 4a for fantasy book for especially [TS]

  for something would you know that [TS]

  implies there is this grand scale I mean [TS]

  yes you know there is the issue of his [TS]

  family being killed but you know like [TS]

  you said a lot of the wedding struggles [TS]

  with his is like money problems and [TS]

  being harassed by this guy at school [TS]

  this is not a chasing that girl who [TS]

  write worth chasing well which is none [TS]

  of which is necessarily your typical [TS]

  like you know fantasy right you know [TS]

  they seem a lot more like teenage and of [TS]

  course our character [TS]

  he's also you know precociously young [TS]

  right he's like like 16 or something [TS]

  then things mixed in with that they have [TS]

  that story that you hear about like that [TS]

  the legendary backstory of these people [TS]

  in the kings and that's like you know [TS]

  that's fantasy book type stuff for he [TS]

  talks all about you know that the king [TS]

  who goes blind and the various deals [TS]

  they made in the origin of these people [TS]

  will kill that is just a hundred percent [TS]

  hardcore epic fantasy but then you come [TS]

  back as like that and it was just a [TS]

  story so now i need to try to get some [TS]

  more money [TS]

  well and that is one of the things i did [TS]

  enjoy about the book at least was those [TS]

  layering of stories where you know like [TS]

  i said we already have this framing [TS]

  story in this guy relating a story and [TS]

  then inside of that we often have [TS]

  another layer of story that sort of [TS]

  comes in there and I think you know [TS]

  clearly rock this has an interest in [TS]

  sort of delving into the lore of this [TS]

  world that he's created in a lot of [TS]

  times that's you know that's fun and [TS]

  interesting you know sort of side trip [TS]

  even if it is always tangential to the [TS]

  story itself i'm curious i mean is there [TS]

  anything in particular that stood out to [TS]

  you as you know moments that you did [TS]

  really enjoy John McHugh flip this on [TS]

  your head is like there anything [TS]

  particular tales yeah well yeah I had a [TS]

  favorite scene that I should have [TS]

  written down was thinking last night [TS]

  angel was over [TS]

  no i didn't i didn't like that I didn't [TS]

  like that bookend thing where they were [TS]

  there with a prologue and epilogue or [TS]

  like the same except for a couple words [TS]

  with little change in perspective I [TS]

  don't think he pulled that off was my [TS]

  favorite scene I that probably my [TS]

  favorite scene was when he's on the [TS]

  rooftop with the Loudoun or whatever his [TS]

  name is and he's trying to you know get [TS]

  them to come on board he tells me to [TS]

  jump off the roof and he doesn't cuz i [TS]

  got a chuckle out of that just because [TS]

  that that's that's an example of why I [TS]

  like this book because it it plays on [TS]

  the on the conventions in any other [TS]

  fantasy book you know he would have [TS]

  jumped off and been caught in the air by [TS]

  magic approved it's worth or not jumped [TS]

  off and I guess what jumps off it like [TS]

  breaks his legs or whatever happened to [TS]

  my I remember it vaguely but that [TS]

  interactions with him tend to not be as [TS]

  stereotypical and and it is because that [TS]

  situation which he doesn't have all the [TS]

  answers I don't know what I still think [TS]

  the character is so very Merry situation [TS]

  i don't think this counts as a character [TS]

  flaw but at least he has genuine [TS]

  interactions in a situation where ma or [TS]

  whatever saying that [TS]

  the dramas were two characters one [TS]

  character want something at the end of [TS]

  the scene he doesn't get it [TS]

  that's pretty much every scene between [TS]

  growth and Ellen if I'm mispronouncing [TS]

  both of those names so I enjoy all the [TS]

  interactions and the roof seen in [TS]

  particular with other yes i would have [TS]

  said that was among my favorites too i [TS]

  think another one of my another one that [TS]

  I really enjoyed from the first book is [TS]

  the the the first scene where he gets in [TS]

  the first service team we have to prove [TS]

  himself to be admitted to the University [TS]

  any part of what i liked about that was [TS]

  that you know yes he's very clever and [TS]

  that's that's the scene where it [TS]

  demonstrates again that is clever but i [TS]

  think one of the other things i kinda [TS]

  liked about that was that he also [TS]

  there's a whole point made out of the [TS]

  fact that he kind of cheats in that he [TS]

  sits he sort of sneaks into this place [TS]

  and and listen to everybody else's [TS]

  questions to see what they're going to [TS]

  ask before he does that and I think you [TS]

  know to me that speaks to one of the [TS]

  things that I that I like about quote [TS]

  that is not necessarily just that he [TS]

  says you know you so smart and clever [TS]

  but he cheats right you know he tries to [TS]

  figure out shortcuts and I think it's [TS]

  one of those flaws that I that I kind of [TS]

  liked about him that's his kobayashi [TS]

  brew moment that says that's a street [TS]

  urchin thing like that's that's the more [TS]

  interesting part of this character [TS]

  because he's insufferable when he's with [TS]

  his family is like over wonderful [TS]

  gypsies were artists and we all love art [TS]

  and we're happy and my parents loved me [TS]

  in there there you know these they're 20 [TS]

  feet tall and towering above me and [TS]

  giving me advice about it you know when [TS]

  he goes through that experience living [TS]

  on your pretty excited when they got [TS]

  murdered huh yeah i got those guys are [TS]

  dead the murder didn't hit me that much [TS]

  because it's like they're just they're [TS]

  visible problems characterization every [TS]

  characteristic of the main characters [TS]

  really cookie cutter like think about [TS]

  his friends like sim and whoever the [TS]

  friends and they're just there's nothing [TS]

  to them they're they're barely [TS]

  characters if you have to say what [TS]

  distinguishes one of his friends from [TS]

  the other and same thing with the girls [TS]

  are just you know that this is not a lot [TS]

  there in the same was true of his [TS]

  parents so I didn't hit me that hard [TS]

  when he died because i didn't buy into [TS]

  the whole like I've analogous to the [TS]

  seem real but when he's down and out and [TS]

  as sort of a homeless kid and I go [TS]

  through all those troubles and [TS]

  everything that adds an aspect of his [TS]

  character is more interesting i think we [TS]

  should focus more on that if they want [TS]

  to like you know enhances character [TS]

  flaws and believable way that things [TS]

  where he does things that [TS]

  you know morally ambiguous it's you get [TS]

  ahead and that seemingly doesn't regret [TS]

  them you know and he does that he's [TS]

  doing that in the second book now tell [TS]

  me how to continue to do things that [TS]

  aren't particularly heroic or Noble or [TS]

  that his parents went to grow but it [TS]

  isn't they don't seem to bother amount [TS]

  of he's a sociopath or they're just not [TS]

  just not very big on introspection you [TS]

  know they want my dad think if he knew I [TS]

  was cheating to get into the sea he [TS]

  raised me so well and honorably or just [TS]

  you know all gypsies sheets are Gypsy [TS]

  listeners for the stairs at the risk of [TS]

  you know making us sound like we [TS]

  practiced all totally in the pit of not [TS]

  liking things [TS]

  well its got diseases or anything you [TS]

  particularly that stood out to you that [TS]

  you did like I know we talked a little [TS]

  bit about what you didn't like well I'm [TS]

  i did--like i read the book when it [TS]

  first came out so i don't remember any [TS]

  particular scenes but I did like the how [TS]

  he goes about building his I mean this [TS]

  is kind of a term tossed around in [TS]

  science fiction and fantasy world [TS]

  building right so i think that he does a [TS]

  good job of I may not like the [TS]

  characters but i think the world that he [TS]

  puts them in is very interesting and he [TS]

  does he built that world in such a way [TS]

  of not really telling us about it my [TS]

  kind of having his characters interact [TS]

  in it and then you know telling stories [TS]

  about the world and setting it up so you [TS]

  don't really see much of the world [TS]

  because you only see what could both is [TS]

  is interacting with but you know there's [TS]

  a lot more stuff out there and there are [TS]

  kings and there are their stuff [TS]

  happening that you don't really see so I [TS]

  think that it makes the setting very [TS]

  interesting to me i think that that is [TS]

  you know and traditionally that's a big [TS]

  part of fantasy right is world-building [TS]

  that's why many of us read these these [TS]

  fantasy books to sort of see what on [TS]

  what other worlds that these writers can [TS]

  put together [TS]

  I you know I think that there's a lot I [TS]

  mean despite John's misgivings I think [TS]

  our are you know some of them are very [TS]

  accurate i think there are there are [TS]

  definitely shortcomings in the book and [TS]

  I mean I'm going to get the Bible slacks [TS]

  and seduces first book but you know you [TS]

  know there's definitely room for [TS]

  improvement and you know it's one of the [TS]

  things I've been looking forward to [TS]

  reading the second book for awhile i [TS]

  came across this book first [TS]

  actually the year it came out i think [TS]

  because it was the onion AV club's like [TS]

  Book of the Year like the best book they [TS]

  read in 2007 see never how could that be [TS]

  possible that's that's probably a lot of [TS]

  what's happening here is the overhyping [TS]

  like I read it after so many people that [TS]

  said so many things about it so I was [TS]

  really expecting something special and [TS]

  you know for all the good things like if [TS]

  I'd come in unknown on and i probably [TS]

  would have been up on those bugs i [TS]

  thought this book was gonna be another [TS]

  garbage fantasy but actually had some [TS]

  interesting things instead i'm coming [TS]

  into it as this is the best fantasy book [TS]

  in the past 10 years and every did say [TS]

  no it's not [TS]

  well i was thinking about that as I you [TS]

  know we're prepared for this podcast I'm [TS]

  i sat in a quiet room and just pondered [TS]

  the book as I often do and I after I [TS]

  finished reading it I thought to myself [TS]

  I remember thinking very clearly this is [TS]

  unlike any fantasy book i have ever read [TS]

  you think it's unlike unlevel that's [TS]

  what I after i read it that's what I [TS]

  thought but then through the years and [TS]

  thinking about what happened in the book [TS]

  I thought to myself this is pretty much [TS]

  what fantasy books are starting to shine [TS]

  think about because I mean the story is [TS]

  very traditional right you know it's a [TS]

  guy who overcomes lot of challenges and [TS]

  becomes this legend but i think the [TS]

  interesting part of it and i don't know [TS]

  if this happens in the first book but so [TS]

  it definitely in the second book he kind [TS]

  of in the the book and a story he [TS]

  relates how he kind of he himself during [TS]

  when he was a kid created these legends [TS]

  about himself that you then here later [TS]

  on so like you know he started spreading [TS]

  the rumors about you know the various [TS]

  powers that he had that he didn't really [TS]

  have but he just kind of planted those [TS]

  stories and well yea yea that there's a [TS]

  really good scene in the first book that [TS]

  I quite liked where's the he gets [TS]

  punished for doing something at the [TS]

  University and he gets whipped and he [TS]

  makes a point of taking this you know [TS]

  drug or whatever that will prevent him [TS]

  from bleeding so he doesn't you know it [TS]

  has included so essentially is a point [TS]

  of not showing weakness is the way that [TS]

  he sees it and so that sort of urns in [TS]

  this code both the Bloodless about that [TS]

  that's you know then becomes a larger [TS]

  part of this legend like all you know is [TS]

  new here [TS]

  that he doesn't he doesn't bleed and [TS]

  that's kinda one of the fun parts of [TS]

  this is that in this framing story he's [TS]

  an innkeeper having sort of resigned [TS]

  from this life of heroism and yet all [TS]

  the people come into the in know the [TS]

  legendary figure they don't know that [TS]

  that the innkeeper is the legendary [TS]

  figure but they'll be telling stories [TS]

  about him and you'll see the as the [TS]

  story progresses as the story that we [TS]

  hear from clothes progresses you'll [TS]

  start to recognize like the stories that [TS]

  the the people in the indoor telling [TS]

  about clothes this legendary figure you [TS]

  start to see the seeds of that in the [TS]

  story that that were sort of getting the [TS]

  real story but they're totally blown out [TS]

  of proportion which is I think one of [TS]

  the things I liked about it like there's [TS]

  if there's definitely a strong element [TS]

  of like what storytelling is and and [TS]

  making you know what exactly a legend is [TS]

  right and i think that was my my [TS]

  favorite part of the book and that's [TS]

  what I think made it so unique because [TS]

  you know the story is pretty much a [TS]

  fantasy story the magic system is [TS]

  different than a lot of other stuff but [TS]

  I mean the overall arc in the characters [TS]

  kind of there's nothing too [TS]

  extraordinary about them or i should say [TS]

  nothing to stand out about them but i [TS]

  think that the whole like like Dan said [TS]

  the whole you know telling a story about [TS]

  storytelling is is interesting i started [TS]

  off two minds on the framing saying [TS]

  because on the one hand i almost think [TS]

  especially in the first book that if the [TS]

  series that started straight where I was [TS]

  third pressure on mission narrator no [TS]

  framing story start with the kid who's a [TS]

  gypsy and just gone through the story in [TS]

  the linear fashion like that and then [TS]

  ended i guess in the same spot for after [TS]

  finding out nothing new about these [TS]

  people and saving in town from a dragon [TS]

  you know you'd be like it would would [TS]

  read more like like the first harry [TS]

  potter book cord where it's like [TS]

  discovering the world and what you might [TS]

  do in it and a little bit of adventure [TS]

  and stuff like that but nothing that big [TS]

  apple's book because I thought there was [TS]

  so little of the framing story it was [TS]

  just it was like almost like a [TS]

  distraction I could come back to and [TS]

  have that argument between a vast and [TS]

  the chronicler and like I felt like that [TS]

  was just wasting time but on the other [TS]

  hand since the frame story is there and [TS]

  we know he ends up its asset innkeeper [TS]

  dude i hope that in the later books they [TS]

  don't [TS]

  and maybe in a second most men don't [TS]

  pull punches and it's not just that he [TS]

  retired from heroism but that he ended [TS]

  up doing some really bad things because [TS]

  that will add a lot of interest to the [TS]

  character I think I don't want to see [TS]

  like that he did heroic stuffin even [TS]

  know didn't turn out the way he wanted [TS]

  he always had the best intentions I want [TS]

  to see him you know either become mad [TS]

  with power or make some really bad moves [TS]

  or do something out of jealousy or just [TS]

  basically mess things opportunity [TS]

  already you know imply that has caused [TS]

  this big war that sort of in the [TS]

  background or whatever I want to see him [TS]

  do bad things I'm sort of downfall [TS]

  you know I don't want to see him try to [TS]

  be the earth throughout the whole thing [TS]

  just like he tries to be in the first [TS]

  book and just like Oh through bed [TS]

  coincidences and mean people doing mean [TS]

  things to me [TS]

  things didn't turn out that well I want [TS]

  to see some serious you know that [TS]

  emotional wrenching problems happen to [TS]

  him and the frame started kind of [TS]

  promises that so I have my fingers [TS]

  crossed CC when I think that's what the [TS]

  the framing story really kind of [TS]

  separates and elevates this book from [TS]

  the heart which I I despise harry potter [TS]

  so I never read them always in the [TS]

  movies but i haven't read them for I was [TS]

  the I was the only one on the harry [TS]

  potter podcast here is that whatever you [TS]

  and I i don't i don't care for it so i [TS]

  have only read the first one everyone [TS]

  says oh they get so much better and if I [TS]

  don't like the first one I'm not reading [TS]

  6 more [TS]

  I'm sorry but anyway so i think that [TS]

  that framing story really kind of it may [TS]

  be a trick like a writer trick but I [TS]

  don't think it's going to get really [TS]

  elevates the whole thing and because you [TS]

  know how the story is going to end it [TS]

  really makes the story which is kind of [TS]

  running the middle story much more [TS]

  interesting for sure like what how does [TS]

  he get from from this little kid who you [TS]

  know is great and everything to this [TS]

  innkeeper who is kind of you know [TS]

  seemingly washed up or is he hiding out [TS]

  or what's going on with it and you don't [TS]

  find out he's so cautious about laying [TS]

  out details I worry about Dark Tower [TS]

  disease the first Dark Tower had a [TS]

  little bit of that to where it's really [TS]

  interesting word you want a world and [TS]

  you want to know more about it but they [TS]

  tell you almost nothing so it's a very [TS]

  removed it's a big big tease and it [TS]

  leaves you wanting more but then then [TS]

  you've got to pay off eventually you [TS]

  know in the seven books you have to tell [TS]

  something about this world and that's [TS]

  the harder part so in the first one it [TS]

  is [TS]

  have a little bit easier to say we're [TS]

  gonna have this framing story and we [TS]

  know something happens to my hands up [TS]

  here but we're not even going to tell [TS]

  you what we're not even gonna tell you [TS]

  whether he's like he's like you don't [TS]

  know if he's hiding because people are [TS]

  trying to do something bad to do [TS]

  something good did he just give up we [TS]

  don't know what happened to him only [TS]

  thing we know is that he lives through [TS]

  well we get the impression from the end [TS]

  of the first the end of the frame store [TS]

  from the first book that he can't do [TS]

  magic anymore but yeah that's exactly [TS]

  the body because he's depressed [TS]

  I hope it's because you can ever imagine [TS]

  he was lying the whole time and [TS]

  unreliable narrator well hey I mean [TS]

  that's that might be you know that would [TS]

  that would be arguably very [TS]

  disappointing in some ways but also very [TS]

  interesting another way because we do [TS]

  get this whole thing through his [TS]

  perspective like there's and clearly [TS]

  he's a good storyteller [TS]

  so you know what if he is he claims he [TS]

  is not you know embellishing it but what [TS]

  if he was you know like that would be an [TS]

  interesting understand this in this [TS]

  world i mean if in the University magic [TS]

  is kind of commonplace but once you [TS]

  leave even like I looks it feels like [TS]

  you walk like three steps from the [TS]

  University and everyone has never heard [TS]

  of magic so if you can accuse you of [TS]

  consorting with demons 10 letters and I [TS]

  liked how they mix it with technology [TS]

  because like it's it is magic and then [TS]

  there's this other thing which is their [TS]

  equivalent of technology and and people [TS]

  haven't heard of it because they're you [TS]

  know the same way farmers have been her [TS]

  transistor radios when it first appeared [TS]

  but like the second book now this is a [TS]

  spoiler but someone's gotta love a [TS]

  refrigerator [TS]

  basically it's made from these two [TS]

  little magic more or less strips of [TS]

  metal but it's just a refrigerator and [TS]

  it's it's just as magical to him as as a [TS]

  real fridge would be and that's like [TS]

  that's that's the one side of the [TS]

  technology that's it's boring like [TS]

  people like all you got one of those [TS]

  magic refrigerated likes not you know [TS]

  it's not that interesting vs naming the [TS]

  wind John where you were you were you [TS]

  disappointed when it turned out he was [TS]

  also you know like an excellent fridge [TS]

  repair man at a certain point you just [TS]

  assume it's going to be good at [TS]

  everything he is going to the University [TS]

  but it may seem so easy just right stuff [TS]

  on little pieces yeah but that's totally [TS]

  different than the that that's there and [TS]

  that has like you know you get three [TS]

  steps outside no one's even heard that [TS]

  is like sympathy lights wow it's magic [TS]

  but the real magic is still as far as [TS]

  far along as I am in the second book [TS]

  still very mysterious and very powerful [TS]

  and very scary even within the [TS]

  university it's not like Harry Potter [TS]

  weather like [TS]

  now kids raised you want we're going to [TS]

  learn now even within the university [TS]

  it's kind of hard corn and that's why [TS]

  everyone respect the crazy professor guy [TS]

  because he's the one guy who's the [TS]

  professor of that real magic stuff and [TS]

  the other guys it more like a scientist [TS]

  my professors in actual University who [TS]

  do one respects just just like an actual [TS]

  university exactly where that I can hit [TS]

  someone's got at once killings got that [TS]

  shop for people are building things like [TS]

  woodshop class is dangerous chemicals [TS]

  it's basically science without having to [TS]

  worry about it being science that's true [TS]

  it's much more you know work a day [TS]

  metric is this very interested [TS]

  the magic of engineering yeah and and I [TS]

  think that's my favorite part of the [TS]

  whole thing is that split between [TS]

  technology magic and magic magic and [TS]

  especially since the stories they tell [TS]

  of like long ago and the people who are [TS]

  demons and the deals they make and the [TS]

  magic magic like even within this world [TS]

  with this kind of magic technology is [TS]

  creeping up they still have these [TS]

  amazing tales of when there was real [TS]

  magic let me tell you kids and it wasn't [TS]

  this stuff for we write little ruins on [TS]

  pieces of metal make it hot no let me [TS]

  tell you it was real magic and the few [TS]

  hints of that I get with him calling the [TS]

  wind and the let that legend that whole [TS]

  thing I think ties the first book [TS]

  together because lord knows the plot [TS]

  doesn't tied together in fact that it's [TS]

  the fact that it's called the name of [TS]

  the wind and the real magic is is sort [TS]

  of going to be at the heart of his [TS]

  journey to power and that he you know [TS]

  here is about in the beginning and does [TS]

  it at the end that ties it together and [TS]

  makes it sort of a book for me [TS]

  well then and there are a lot of things [TS]

  that are hinted at and you know I kind [TS]

  of I don't know I i find myself a little [TS]

  surprise I know Scotty much as before [TS]

  that it's you know sort of envision that [TS]

  say peers as a three-book series but it [TS]

  seems like and again I'm only halfway [TS]

  through the second book seems like [TS]

  there's a lot more material in here that [TS]

  then that's gonna fit in three books [TS]

  right yeah i mean i finished the the [TS]

  second book and I don't I if the third [TS]

  book is going to be maybe forty eight [TS]

  hundred pages long [TS]

  maybe I don't know because there's a lot [TS]

  of other words facing right that's like [TS]

  the first one I said I kept reading and [TS]

  reading gone dude you're not gonna [TS]

  finish let me tell you like he's using [TS]

  you're not going to finish it at the [TS]

  University what's gonna happen is you [TS]

  can discover anything about these people [TS]

  his whole mission of the first ones i [TS]

  gotta find out about these people will [TS]

  kill my parents [TS]

  you don't have enough pages left dude [TS]

  you're not gonna find anything out so i [TS]

  guess you chase after dragon for a while [TS]

  addressing dragon and then we'll end the [TS]

  book The End call the wind en su but I i [TS]

  have i have trouble following like the [TS]

  chronology so i read a blog post about [TS]

  this where someone said that in the the [TS]

  innkeep like in his innkeeper in the the [TS]

  bookend thing they think he's like 30 [TS]

  years old and I imagine too much older [TS]

  than that I don't need and I thought it [TS]

  was like 60 yeah I think he's now I [TS]

  think I mean that they're kind of big [TS]

  about it you know that but people come [TS]

  into the inner kind of vague about a [TS]

  little one of them doesn't you know I [TS]

  lose some points to him being can't be [TS]

  that old you know basically I mean of [TS]

  course the story we're getting from him [TS]

  is he's like 16 and so you know by that [TS]

  point I guess you know 30 might be [TS]

  really old and fantasy world where four [TS]

  people seem to die pretty on your way to [TS]

  get noticed that he walked like an old [TS]

  man but looks like a young man like he [TS]

  moves like one of the comments one of [TS]

  the people who have the first or second [TS]

  book was that you move like an old man [TS]

  but you look like a young man and then [TS]

  you don't have life expectancy was 40 [TS]

  maybe he is getting on in years I i [TS]

  don't think the time gap is that [TS]

  important but it's kind of like this [TS]

  bothers me about Star Wars a little bit [TS]

  too and that within a single generation [TS]

  people like Jedi who is that and you [TS]

  know just previously 10 years ago there [TS]

  are swarming all over every planet solve [TS]

  everybody's problems like I never heard [TS]

  a Jedi don't believe in the force was [TS]

  ever you know you believe in the force [TS]

  of their Jedi all over the place just 10 [TS]

  years ago you know people don't forget [TS]

  that soon so if this guy did all these [TS]

  amazing exploits and cause all these big [TS]

  problems in like the past five or ten [TS]

  years [TS]

  well yeah I mean you picture it if [TS]

  you're picturing him as a legend in [TS]

  terms of like you know shrouded in the [TS]

  mists of time or whatever there's [TS]

  definitely seems like there needs to be [TS]

  time for that to sink in [TS]

  unless you just a legend in this one [TS]

  little town plus the university town [TS]

  legend in his own mind that that's the [TS]

  stuff stuff to work out especially since [TS]

  this guy seems to suggest pages come out [TS]

  of him but he doesn't make progress [TS]

  maybe group does not planted that well [TS]

  and he's gonna I don't know if you have [TS]

  the time lines all worked out but i [TS]

  would think after working on the first [TS]

  book for seven years or something he [TS]

  should take the time to do a little time [TS]

  line chart and figure out okay [TS]

  he's this old this point I gotta get do [TS]

  all these events happened to happen [TS]

  between here and now it doesn't make [TS]

  sense for the townspeople like not to [TS]

  wreck another to have photography and [TS]

  stuff but he's a guy with the red hair [TS]

  and I don't know that if it seems like [TS]

  hiding by weight and second red hair [TS]

  didn't like dryer and put on the glasses [TS]

  and it's like you know Superman where [TS]

  did you go this just this guy here with [TS]

  glasses well and there's actually [TS]

  there's a there's a funny scene in the [TS]

  second book where he tries to convince [TS]

  one of the one of the NTSA i just got [TS]

  through that scene [TS]

  yeah and I felt like it was not possible [TS]

  that he couldn't convince them of that [TS]

  but I mean I don't know I i agree [TS]

  because I think there's something II and [TS]

  you know maybe that's still to be borne [TS]

  out by by the rest of the story but i [TS]

  think there is something like you know [TS]

  if somebody walks up to you and tells [TS]

  them tells you that they're like Merlin [TS]

  or whatever like it you know even if [TS]

  they got a long white beard and they [TS]

  seem to look like you know wizard you [TS]

  probably going to be a little bit [TS]

  skeptical i met Merlin just the other [TS]

  day and let me tell you meet a lot of [TS]

  interesting people until they did you [TS]

  tell you it was magic everywhere but [TS]

  these people believe in magic though [TS]

  it's not the same as Maryland it would [TS]

  be like someone who looks just like [TS]

  Robert Downey jr. but looked a little [TS]

  bit scruffy here came up to you and said [TS]

  no seriously i'm robert downey jr and [TS]

  you like get out of here and then you [TS]

  look at him close and you feel like yeah [TS]

  I guess you want well and then I think [TS]

  there is some question of the depth like [TS]

  the definition of the world of the [TS]

  framing story right because there is [TS]

  there is the there's that encounter at [TS]

  the end of the book where there's this [TS]

  guy is basically like a demon possesses [TS]

  some guy and patron you know comes into [TS]

  the inn [TS]

  and they're all trying to stop him but [TS]

  none of them quite believe that it is in [TS]

  fact a demon until after they gave you [TS]

  know tried to kill it in several ways [TS]

  and have failed [TS]

  I mean I think it's in there is a [TS]

  suggestion that that that is uncommon [TS]

  but you're right that there's there's we [TS]

  don't necessarily have a clear picture [TS]

  of how the world in that in that future [TS]

  or in presence i guess from the framing [TS]

  story like how commonplace all these [TS]

  things are and then they are kind of in [TS]

  a backwater town or even though they [TS]

  they talk about the legend stuff like [TS]

  they're not sophisticated people the [TS]

  chronicler is more of a sophisticated [TS]

  person and is you know and it's very [TS]

  friend of the two of them are more [TS]

  worldly and know about these things with [TS]

  the town spoke just seemed to not know [TS]

  about anything [TS]

  another thing I liked about the the [TS]

  technology angles that the demons you [TS]

  kill them with iron some sort of [TS]

  allegory about technology and systems [TS]

  and superstition or maybe just reading [TS]

  too much into it well that's that's a [TS]

  that's a classic it's a classic sort of [TS]

  truck that goes back i think even to [TS]

  fairy tales cold iron is usually [TS]

  considered I think Shakespeare lose that [TS]

  like there's a there's a scene in like [TS]

  midsummer night's dream or something I [TS]

  think so nice piece of Lord though they [TS]

  had good scenes without like strapping [TS]

  him to the big iron wheel and putting [TS]

  the pit and everything all that stuff [TS]

  would be good on film I feel like yeah i [TS]

  mean would you make a movie out of this [TS]

  it seems like it would be it seems like [TS]

  it wouldn't work right it wouldn't work [TS]

  with some seams in it work like that the [TS]

  whole at the backstory scene would be [TS]

  kind of like the backstory seen in and [TS]

  fellowship of the ring without telling [TS]

  the story about the the original battle [TS]

  with everything was cut off [TS]

  star-spangled learn everything that that [TS]

  little backstory segment that story they [TS]

  tell about almost the legends and stuff [TS]

  would fit in that style and the scene [TS]

  with a demon being strapped to an iron [TS]

  wheel and speaking in tongues and trying [TS]

  to convince you to lighten free that's [TS]

  that's that's triple a cinema there but [TS]

  then everything else around that you're [TS]

  like I don't make a movie out of this [TS]

  weekend it's not your traditional is [TS]

  definitely not your to structured like [TS]

  your traditional playa the movie would [TS]

  end of people like what wait what [TS]

  happened and then the magic isn't that [TS]

  show you so I mean it's not like he's [TS]

  yeah people don't want it like that work [TS]

  about and definitely works well in a [TS]

  book all the explanations of the magic [TS]

  and everything if you're kind of a geek [TS]

  or a science geek or whatever you [TS]

  it's like a different world system you [TS]

  but i like reading about that it's a [TS]

  little bit tiresome reading about it a [TS]

  second time in the second book but [TS]

  that's a different [TS]

  podcast we can discuss that how do you [TS]

  know that it wouldn't be so interesting [TS]

  to see him you know crafting a sympathy [TS]

  lab been explaining how it works i would [TS]

  watch that sounds riveting I i would [TS]

  watch it to it does sound interesting [TS]

  but for most people not ask myself my [TS]

  favorite parts of the book one is in the [TS]

  lab and explain the principles and and [TS]

  demonstrating my love that stuff not to [TS]

  interfere too much of the RF field but i [TS]

  was curious [TS]

  John uses only earlier about like you [TS]

  know this wasn't this wasn't you the [TS]

  best fantasy book of the past decade i'm [TS]

  curious if there's something in [TS]

  particular that stands out to you that [TS]

  was that you felt like pick up the slack [TS]

  and places where this was lacking yeah [TS]

  i've barely read fantasy books now so [TS]

  i'll just surmising that there had to be [TS]

  a better book mostly what what we think [TS]

  of it because yeah I that's why can't be [TS]

  another book episodes because I don't [TS]

  read that much and what I do read is [TS]

  like stuck in this Stephen King year's [TS]

  best science fiction ghetto have you [TS]

  read have you read george RR martin song [TS]

  of ice and fire [TS]

  you know I haven't haven't read any of [TS]

  his books alright i'll probably come up [TS]

  in a future podcast since the TV show is [TS]

  coming out next month i did I can give [TS]

  an example are really you know like [TS]

  fantasy books that are better than this [TS]

  that had been in my lifetime obviously [TS]

  looking at the lord of the rings out [TS]

  there is ridiculous but obviously you [TS]

  know that's that's my favorite fantasy [TS]

  book of all time that's a whole other [TS]

  category but not a big such a big [TS]

  Stephen can King fan his one fantasy [TS]

  book I thought eyes of the dragon was a [TS]

  great example of why people buy the [TS]

  numbers straightforward fantasy that had [TS]

  lots of interesting things to recommend [TS]

  like it wasn't amazing and fantastic and [TS]

  transcendent but it was it was a little [TS]

  bit paint by the numbers but i really [TS]

  like that I thought it was at and the [TS]

  ears a nose was not typical Stephen King [TS]

  you can redo a kid or whatever I always [TS]

  look to that as my sort of benchmark for [TS]

  top-quality not not amazing but not bad [TS]

  fantasy and I judge all the fantasy [TS]

  books by you know is it better or worse [TS]

  than eyes of the dragon and in every [TS]

  regarding this is worse than I the [TS]

  dragon almost every regard but better in [TS]

  those highlight aspects of like had a [TS]

  better world more interesting [TS]

  ideas about the epic story and you know [TS]

  it's a much bigger and much bigger story [TS]

  that has yet to be told [TS]

  ok how he's got well i will admit that [TS]

  when i was in high school I kind of [TS]

  burnt out on fantasy books i read a [TS]

  whole bunch of pretty crappy fantasy [TS]

  books like a lot of them and then I [TS]

  stopped reading fantasy because I was [TS]

  sick of it it's always the same thing [TS]

  you know there's some extraordinary [TS]

  person in need to find something and you [TS]

  know sleigh and evil [TS]

  so this book actually has been at these [TS]

  two books i think the best fantasy books [TS]

  i read in the last few years of course I [TS]

  haven't read much fantasy so I'm not a [TS]

  good judge of the best science fiction [TS]

  best fantasy the last year's fair enough [TS]

  about yourself down are you a big [TS]

  fantasy person I I kind of like you I [TS]

  like I read a lot of it i mean i think [TS]

  the thing that killed a lot of my [TS]

  fantasy interest was a robert jordan [TS]

  personally personally responsible for [TS]

  killing much my fantasy interest which [TS]

  books that i think i read the first six [TS]

  maybe seven books in that series and [TS]

  that i read up to the point like where i [TS]

  think i was in high school and I read up [TS]

  to the point where like he had written [TS]

  at that time and was like well yeah that [TS]

  was pretty good [TS]

  like you know although i'll read the [TS]

  next book when it comes out and then the [TS]

  next book came out like years later and [TS]

  i was like i don't remember a thing that [TS]

  happened in there and I become sort of [TS]

  disenchanted with it in the meanwhile I [TS]

  was like I'm never going to reread it to [TS]

  to figure out what happened and then i [TS]

  would read some you know care criticism [TS]

  of it from other people like it you know [TS]

  that's another good example [TS]

  well you know the female characters [TS]

  being locally sort of two-dimensional [TS]

  and they're just for the that the men's [TS]

  interest in them and I think you know [TS]

  that sort of run home at that point [TS]

  after i was at more of a distance and [TS]

  and that sort of held me off for a while [TS]

  i've come across a couple fancy books in [TS]

  the past years that I really liked one [TS]

  of them was this one at least before I [TS]

  start talking job got it John has ruined [TS]

  it for everyone but the other ones being [TS]

  I have enjoyed George RR Martin's song [TS]

  of ice and fire to lift up until the [TS]

  point where is and there's a I guess the [TS]

  next book is due out in the summer and [TS]

  I've read to actually read the first [TS]

  three books in that series twice because [TS]

  i read them again when the fourth book [TS]

  came out and they're very good i hope he [TS]

  doesn't fall into the robert jordan trap [TS]

  of sort of [TS]

  spinning this story out forever and that [TS]

  he has a good ending point because [TS]

  there's some really good stuff in there [TS]

  it's a very brutal you know series of [TS]

  books it's got a lot of stuff that [TS]

  focuses on things more like political [TS]

  intrigue there's not a lot of magic or [TS]

  other worldliness and so it makes it [TS]

  that much more interesting when that [TS]

  comes up that's true i had forgotten [TS]

  about Jordan I will second that and then [TS]

  the other book which i came across [TS]

  roughly the same time i came across the [TS]

  name of the wind is a book called the [TS]

  lies of locke lamora which has some [TS]

  things that are very similar to the name [TS]

  of the wind especially in that you're [TS]

  the sort of the main character is this [TS]

  very clever fellow he's a thief though [TS]

  and this is this book is is it's very [TS]

  different in some ways it's a lot darker [TS]

  the end of that book is very dark like a [TS]

  John John start talking about like I [TS]

  wanted to see like the actual meaningful [TS]

  loss and stuff like that i started [TS]

  thinking about that book because there [TS]

  really is a lot of that book that you [TS]

  feel sort of like wow that did not go [TS]

  well for that guy and that had a sequel [TS]

  called a red seas under red skies and I [TS]

  think there's another book do this year [TS]

  or or sometime soon and so that would be [TS]

  the other series that i read started [TS]

  reading few years ago and thinking wow [TS]

  this is this is really good i really [TS]

  like this you know you know it also [TS]

  throughout their I was thinking of [TS]

  picking up ere it and I mentioned doctor [TS]

  before I don't get called fantasy or [TS]

  sci-fi is kind of in the middle but i [TS]

  thought my favorite book in the dark [TS]

  tower series reads like a fantasy book [TS]

  wizard and glasses my favorite one and [TS]

  that reads like a more-or-less [TS]

  self-contained fantasy but can I thought [TS]

  that was head and shoulders above its [TS]

  really that's a really coherent like out [TS]

  as opposed to a lot of the other books [TS]

  in that series which are kind of like [TS]

  this weird pastiche mix-match of genres [TS]

  Wizarding glasses really really coherent [TS]

  and like sort of focused on this story [TS]

  and again it's sort of a it's a [TS]

  flashback right because its role in [TS]

  telling the story of yeah very little [TS]

  framing story and that one but mostly in [TS]

  the world bulb and then it's been retold [TS]

  that they sort of told three different [TS]

  lens in the Sudan doing a graphic novel [TS]

  version of that and it's sort of it [TS]

  telling some of the same story or the [TS]

  the story of sort of young Roland which [TS]

  is again interesting i think that i [TS]

  agree that the world that world i really [TS]

  enjoy [TS]

  and wizards and glasses a pretty pretty [TS]

  good book and you have to call that [TS]

  fantasy right especially that old world [TS]

  stuff is a kind of headlines and nights [TS]

  an email they have done and seen [TS]

  westerns right right well it's kind of a [TS]

  mix-match of those two bowls of the [TS]

  college more of the Western [TS]

  self-contained book will that and that's [TS]

  definitely a Western yeah well western / [TS]

  syfy vs right [TS]

  western / fantasy and I can study and [TS]

  that's one of the things I love about [TS]

  the dark tower is that it doesn't [TS]

  embrace all those things but I guess [TS]

  again something probably for another [TS]

  podcast yeah but i would but i would put [TS]

  that up there is like it was trying to [TS]

  think of fantasy books i read i always [TS]

  try to read those years best fantasy you [TS]

  know just like I read the year's best [TS]

  sci-fi stuff and for some reason have a [TS]

  much easier time reading the year's best [TS]

  sci-fi short stories and the fancy ones [TS]

  I just I just peter out and don't make [TS]

  it through the book [TS]

  yeah I don't know what the I i'm trying [TS]

  to think of other fantasy books I've [TS]

  read in the last few years i think some [TS]

  of them a lot of the other ones that i [TS]

  really like are things that have been [TS]

  around for awhile that are i mean for [TS]

  example i love love Terry Pratchett who [TS]

  writes in a fantasy world but it's very [TS]

  means community right it's a little [TS]

  different thing that's like saying [TS]

  exactly like science fiction so I like [TS]

  the hitchhiker's guide that so that he [TS]

  has a general to himself and so does [TS]

  terry pratchett I love him too [TS]

  yeah so i'm trying to think if there's [TS]

  anything else that was really like that [TS]

  would jump out at me from the past 10 [TS]

  years and yeah I there are some that are [TS]

  the they're very like I everyone smile [TS]

  see things come across but they could [TS]

  always sound like very traditional sort [TS]

  of fantasy books of the type that I you [TS]

  know didn't really like that much so [TS]

  that I had one of the things I liked [TS]

  about the name of the wind i think in in [TS]

  sort of coming back around to that is [TS]

  that like Scott said that it didn't seem [TS]

  too [TS]

  while it has a lot of the tropes of a [TS]

  fantasy novel it has enough different [TS]

  going for it that I i found it kind of a [TS]

  departure [TS]

  it's kind of a fresh take on it's right [TS]

  because it's not the same thing over and [TS]

  over again like when I was a kid argue [TS]

  your case i read a lot of david eddings [TS]

  so I was obsessed with David a text i [TS]

  read he had a 10 book series and I read [TS]

  the whole thing and then he came out [TS]

  with a new series and i read that was [TS]

  five books they came up with another [TS]

  series and slowly dawned on me that he [TS]

  was telling the exact same story with [TS]

  slightly different characters over [TS]

  varying numbers of books and so I [TS]

  stopped read that but this this was kind [TS]

  of a similar story but had a very [TS]

  different viewpoint [TS]

  ya know I i agree with that I i never [TS]

  read a lot of those ones that were big [TS]

  when I was a when I was in high school [TS]

  like terry brooks and Terry good kids [TS]

  and all that I never never got into [TS]

  those who I return good can then he [TS]

  started getting very he sido un osito [TS]

  masochistic it was weird [TS]

  there are women who had pain sticks and [TS]

  they wore red leather outfits so that [TS]

  when blood splashed on them wouldn't [TS]

  show up it got to be a bit much working [TS]

  out some personal issues sure exactly [TS]

  yeah i think that everything else that [TS]

  I'd you know a lot of the other stuff [TS]

  that i enjoyed as much older stuff and [TS]

  you know I think there's always there's [TS]

  a very porous you know border with a lot [TS]

  of the science fiction and fantasy [TS]

  things that I'll but I've wiped from [TS]

  that era out but yeah there's there's [TS]

  but it's it's an interesting uh it's an [TS]

  interesting dilemma when you have these [TS]

  sort of well-established genre with all [TS]

  these well-trod story type so it's [TS]

  always nice to see somebody break free a [TS]

  little bit and well John I hope that I [TS]

  hope the second book treats you better [TS]

  than that than the first one is that it [TS]

  released maybe you can you you can see [TS]

  it through to the end [TS]

  vibrations you are not going to like it [TS]

  nah I don't call me crazy but I was [TS]

  thinking that you know it probably [TS]

  doesn't go anywhere either with I don't [TS]

  know at this point I'll just because i [TS]

  read a lot of books that are not great [TS]

  like I read almost everything Stephen [TS]

  King does and almost everything he does [TS]

  is not great but there are certain [TS]

  writing styles and authors that just [TS]

  somehow the pages keep turning and just [TS]

  go through you know I'm in the middle of [TS]

  like there's the problem of the [TS]

  e-readers maybe Scott has this problem [TS]

  too i don't have a lot of e-readers [TS]

  compared to him but i do have a lot of [TS]

  devices where I can read and I'm in the [TS]

  middle like nine books it's just it's [TS]

  too many when i was doing paper book [TS]

  that was always one of the time but now [TS]

  it's like what I'm in the mood to read a [TS]

  lot of them are nonfiction and those i [TS]

  feel like i could stop and start at any [TS]

  time but even the fiction books [TS]

  I'm just in the middle so many of them [TS]

  and like maybe do i remember i am in [TS]

  this book yep i'll read a few chapters [TS]

  of this and this is why I never make any [TS]

  progress in my books moment when these [TS]

  books come out [TS]

  these name of the wind things I think I [TS]

  pretty much for that straight through to [TS]

  the end and i'll probably do the same [TS]

  thing with the sequel because even if [TS]

  anything happens there are amusing [TS]

  scenes and you want to see what happens [TS]

  and it's not you know the same reason [TS]

  you watch bad sitcom TV like an [TS]

  entertainment for a few minutes but when [TS]

  it's over I do feel a little dirty [TS]

  yeah and I think Jack slur every day [TS]

  yeah but the Lord yeah I don't think [TS]

  we're helping like it's hard to get [TS]

  people on this podcast to read a fantasy [TS]

  book right so it's just the three of us [TS]

  one guy was never on a book episode and [TS]

  the and the two guys who read everything [TS]

  this podcast is not going to help us get [TS]

  people on the beach you know the next [TS]

  fantasy football guess but for God's [TS]

  sake people read the dark tower so we [TS]

  can talk about it it's only 8,000 pages [TS]

  are you waiting for [TS]

  would you here's the question for both [TS]

  you and then would you recommend this [TS]

  book if someone you're with your friends [TS]

  computer says hey I want to read a [TS]

  fantasy book [TS]

  what would you recommend you read of [TS]

  recent vintage i'd recommend i have [TS]

  recommended this book a to a few people [TS]

  and and most of them will have I think [TS]

  enjoyed it [TS]

  although I have some friends who are [TS]

  very wary of that whole like george RR [TS]

  martin robert jordan disease of its [TS]

  going two years and years before the you [TS]

  know the final book in the series comes [TS]

  out now but this is definitely one that [TS]

  i've recommended to several people and [TS]

  that they seem to mostly enjoyed the [TS]

  lies of locke lamora as i mentioned [TS]

  before is another one that I often [TS]

  recommend and then probably you know [TS]

  george RR martin you know in terms of [TS]

  recent stuff but there's definitely [TS]

  older stuff i like it i'm a big fan of [TS]

  dark hour tom has as John i know is and [TS]

  i'm trying to think after that again if [TS]

  there's anything else that would really [TS]

  come up there like like terry pratchett [TS]

  put you know he's kind of in a different [TS]

  class i wouldn't recommend this book to [TS]

  someone who want to get a fantasy just [TS]

  because I don't think it's I don't think [TS]

  it's representative of the genre i would [TS]

  try to look for more prototypical book [TS]

  you know even if it was one that i [TS]

  hadn't registered was more typical [TS]

  because this is kind of weird off the [TS]

  beaten path and flabby and just you know [TS]

  if you're not into the fantasy genre you [TS]

  want something that's gonna like hook [TS]

  them and get them into I like for [TS]

  example i would definitely recommend [TS]

  eyes the dragon we just like [TS]

  my first fantasy book really simple [TS]

  Wizards little bit of magic but [TS]

  basically just like a simple story with [TS]

  a beginning middle and end that [TS]

  self-contained it's not a book is not [TS]

  book 120 book series or anything like [TS]

  that that's the type of book I recommend [TS]

  if I knew more fantasy books i'll [TS]

  probably have a much better example that [TS]

  I that's that I have mentioned this book [TS]

  other people most of the time saying [TS]

  that I that I thought it had some [TS]

  interesting elements but had many many [TS]

  bad things are and so far it hasn't made [TS]

  any of the people i've mentioned it due [TS]

  to go out and buy it and read it i [TS]

  wonder why but I mean you never know [TS]

  like i said i said the same thing about [TS]

  a friend of mine I told him about the [TS]

  dark tower series and talk about not [TS]

  wanting to get committed to something [TS]

  that's just going to be this gigantic [TS]

  loose conglomeration of stuff that you [TS]

  have spans 30 years that's a big [TS]

  commitment but yeah there is enough to [TS]

  recommend that he actually go through [TS]

  and read the whole thing i feel kind of [TS]

  bad about that put its you never know [TS]

  like I i want to i want to give an [TS]

  accurate picture of a book that I want [TS]

  to see what people are getting into [TS]

  someone was like I'm i might be [TS]

  interested in fantasy i don't know i [TS]

  don't know if i would recommend this [TS]

  book but if I given what i think is an [TS]

  accurate description of what they can [TS]

  decide on their own if there was this is [TS]

  what they want to sign up for [TS]

  well that's a that's a fair point out to [TS]

  you you imagine you saying if you want [TS]

  to read a crappy book [TS]

  not if you say so you're saying you're [TS]

  like us if you read a lot of fantasy [TS]

  books and you feel kind of burned out on [TS]

  it and you want to like read something [TS]

  to like maybe try to read fantasy again [TS]

  that will keep your interest like this [TS]

  that's what it did for me because I [TS]

  hadn't read fantasy and years and years [TS]

  and every time i tried i didn't get [TS]

  anywhere in this book maybe read through [TS]

  it and i'll take the flip side of that [TS]

  and say that you know there are a lot of [TS]

  people there are certainly a stigma [TS]

  attached to a fantasy in some settings [TS]

  like you know I have friends who like [TS]

  now I can comment about magic and [TS]

  wizards and Dragons and I think there's [TS]

  nothing here that's not sort of doesn't [TS]

  fall into those typical tropes and the [TS]

  writing is very accessible and fun like [TS]

  it is like John says it's paige Turner [TS]

  if nothing else and i think that's [TS]

  that's something that often recommends [TS]

  itself to people who are like a little [TS]

  maybe mom might be a little like shy [TS]

  away from your traditional fantasy books [TS]

  because of the stigma attached to them [TS]

  yeah we should all go out and recommend [TS]

  22 all our friends and relatives and see [TS]

  if anyone actually see you actually [TS]

  reads it and what they think we'll find [TS]

  a control group and let's be scientific [TS]

  about this want to pick something off [TS]

  the street see if they liked it and then [TS]

  we can determine been from that whether [TS]

  or not it was a good book i think all [TS]

  all things told any book that I find [TS]

  entertaining and then i read and makes [TS]

  you want to read the second book even [TS]

  though it's four years in between is a [TS]

  successful book and i would recommend it [TS]

  so I say good job Patrick Rufus or [TS]

  whatever the heck you had job on the [TS]

  pronunciation first of all why didn't [TS]

  you pick your last name better exactly [TS]

  the first problem you you couldn't get [TS]

  your character names and you picked [TS]

  names that we can find a lightweight i [TS]

  guess we should be blessed there are no [TS]

  posture peace in the name that's true [TS]

  and i actually thought he did a good job [TS]

  if I never had to pronounce the names i [TS]

  talk names in a book about naming I [TS]

  thought the names were very good yes but [TS]

  I'm pretty weird every once in a while [TS]

  there's a scene in a second book where [TS]

  he's telling a story or something in [TS]

  your and one like talking to some kid or [TS]

  something they refer to as Jimmy and I [TS]

  was like every once in a while that he [TS]

  throws in a name that you're just like [TS]

  that so yeah that was that was kind of [TS]

  funny but yeah I would agree with Scott [TS]

  an overall think that this is you know [TS]

  def book that I read twice actually and [TS]

  enjoy because i read my so now the truth [TS]

  comes height i read the second time this [TS]

  year before because i wanted to read it [TS]

  because I have a very bad memory for [TS]

  these books like Scott I ready to cut [TS]

  several years ago and so I reread it [TS]

  before the second book came out because [TS]

  I sort of wanted to pick up the second [TS]

  book like a continuation of the first [TS]

  book and I cannot imagine doing that [TS]

  it's pretty good the second time i [TS]

  enjoyed i remembered i remembered some [TS]

  of it but not all of it when he posted a [TS]

  recap in cartoon form on his blog so i [TS]

  read that and that was very helpful to [TS]

  get it [TS]

  previously on the neighborhood wait [TS]

  exactly there's very few books that I've [TS]

  reread they've gotten better or even [TS]

  stayed the same on second reading most [TS]

  the time and second reading they get [TS]

  worse because the second reading I know [TS]

  what's going to happen so my brain has [TS]

  more leftover cycles to to analyze the [TS]

  the you know the mechanics of the story [TS]

  and the writing and end up let not [TS]

  liking it as much as I going one book [TS]

  that I read multiple times that does not [TS]

  get worse on multiple readings and sort [TS]

  of the ranks which I've read many many [TS]

  times and it [TS]

  you get better on multiple rings but [TS]

  doesn't it works either tasting I'm [TS]

  gonna have a podcast and there's gonna [TS]

  be a podcast for John and I talked about [TS]

  Lord of the Rings and I tell him how [TS]

  much I really don't like lord of the [TS]

  rings that I i can and i understand the [TS]

  reasons why people don't like it I'm [TS]

  just saying for me it doesn't get it [TS]

  doesn't get it doesn't get worse and I [TS]

  feel like to say the same words might I [TS]

  don't hate it but I i read the books [TS]

  themselves or not the stories are ok the [TS]

  book sorry it's not it's not it's not [TS]

  for it's not for everybody [TS]

  the writing and everything at the store [TS]

  I don't make the cut i guess but now it [TS]

  just it's just what you're interested in [TS]

  like if you for example you ever read [TS]

  Michael Palin so nonfiction [TS]

  no well if you like he just travel [TS]

  writing and I feel like you like travel [TS]

  writing you probably like lord of the [TS]

  rings because a lot of it reads like [TS]

  fiction time here see sort of scenic [TS]

  Mordor seriously this huge swathes of [TS]

  that but they're just people like [TS]

  walking across the landscape and [TS]

  described in the landscape and in [TS]

  ridiculous detail and if recommending [TS]

  restaurants which always thought was [TS]

  weird but have you at the White Tower [TS]

  and minus fear is it's great i mean that [TS]

  the ribs if you haven't read if you have [TS]

  Michael Palin but you should at least I [TS]

  think our netflix you should leave [TS]

  swatch some of the video because he goes [TS]

  around the world [TS]

  around the world [TS]

  travels and and films it and the books [TS]

  are a little bit thicker than the travel [TS]

  videos but they the show's themselves [TS]

  are actually very entertaining great for [TS]

  long plane flight for something so are [TS]

  those are there's our fantasy [TS]

  recommendation [TS]

  yeah Michael Palin full circle or any of [TS]

  those other is very serious [TS]

  alright well the robotic buzzing of John [TS]

  Syracuse's voice tells me that it's that [TS]

  that we've hit our our our long mark [TS]

  here so I'm going I'm going to wrap up [TS]

  and thank my guests Scott McNulty [TS]

  the pleasure was all mine and john [TS]

  surtees this microphone better net ya [TS]

  later just in time [TS]

  just a little and thank you all for [TS]

  listening I'm being more and we'll be [TS]

  we'll see you next time on the [TS]

  we'll be watching [TS]

  [Music] [TS]

  I remember reading Lord of the Rings on [TS]

  a 160 x 160 pixel screen [TS]

  I'm full of corned beef [TS]