The Incomparable

35: The Only Way to Win the Game of Thrones is Not to Play


  the Intolerable podcast number 35 2011 [TS]

  we are back on the incomparable podcast [TS]

  I'm Jason smell your host our topic [TS]

  today is the book series that has [TS]

  generated the buzz worthy HBO series [TS]

  Game of Thrones these are the books by [TS]

  george RR martin called a song of ice [TS]

  and fire which is such a ridiculous and [TS]

  pretentious title that it Five known [TS]

  that was the name of the series I might [TS]

  not have read the books but instead I've [TS]

  read four of them and there's a fifth [TS]

  one coming out so we're going to talk [TS]

  about the books we will fire off spoiler [TS]

  horns inappropriate places but basically [TS]

  if you don't want to know what happens [TS]

  in these books you might not want to [TS]

  listen to this podcast because we are [TS]

  going to talk about how can you not [TS]

  everybody dies there's your boiler horn [TS]

  everybody dies and then he writes poetry [TS]

  for a thousand pages that's what happens [TS]

  it's the art it's the opposite of that [TS]

  doctor who episode everybody lady never [TS]

  die [TS]

  sighs george RR martin series so anyway [TS]

  joining me to talk about george RR [TS]

  martin series of books those voices [TS]

  you've heard before and you just heard [TS]

  and they're like ghosts they that you [TS]

  probably hear them when you're not even [TS]

  listening to the podcast at this point I [TS]

  know I know when I have nightmares [TS]

  they're usually narrated by day and more [TS]

  in hi dan welcome to your life chasing [TS]

  there's no turning back [TS]

  donkey citizen Z well I sleep you will [TS]

  follow very sinister of serenity [TS]

  Caldwell are you acting on your best [TS]

  behavior [TS]

  I I am don't turn your back on mother [TS]

  nature [TS]

  no why would I do that I don't know the [TS]

  song and everybody wants to rule the [TS]

  world except for Scott McNulty he's a [TS]

  lover not a fighter [TS]

  hi Scott I don't want the world I just [TS]

  want your half [TS]

  thank you nice right well well done that [TS]

  also a band beginning with the letter T [TS]

  you could assess it is good friday and [TS]

  this lady estea in your record store [TS]

  that went out of business five years ago [TS]

  so george RR martin [TS]

  I was I was that big beard is Diaz these [TS]

  dirty and a half she's often wear your [TS]

  hat he died i know somebody else wears a [TS]

  hat regularly and it's it takes a [TS]

  special kind of man to wear a hat i will [TS]

  say this i have a picture of myself with [TS]

  george RR martin with both of us wearing [TS]

  hats [TS]

  Oh see you can put that you can put them [TS]

  in the show notes great that was that [TS]

  one of the Hat clubs [TS]

  yes it would say it was a hat convenient [TS]

  believe its hat squads have squad [TS]

  yes we both have beards too is much more [TS]

  impressed yet dad come to think of it [TS]

  you could be george RR martin you've [TS]

  gotta hide a picture the young George RR [TS]

  Martin's time-travel mystic it just [TS]

  finished the books we bake trying i love [TS]

  me working on it [TS]

  so before we get started and before we [TS]

  fire up the spoiler home because i want [TS]

  at least a little bit of action here [TS]

  before we fire off from everybody dies [TS]

  yeah you know i'm not going to everybody [TS]

  eighty percent of the characters diving [TS]

  which eighty percent series the series [TS]

  isn't over yet so it may be that [TS]

  everything is entirely possible so i [TS]

  started reading these books late last [TS]

  year when i heard HBO was going to make [TS]

  a series out of it [TS]

  I don't know if that strange behavior to [TS]

  say you know read the books now before [TS]

  they become a TV series but they've been [TS]

  out there for a long time the first book [TS]

  was published in 1996 so I'm wondering [TS]

  when did you guys start reading these [TS]

  books i have a funny story about how I [TS]

  first became aware of these books will [TS]

  be the judges that but I have a story [TS]

  about the first time is with being where [TS]

  these books it was the first week of [TS]

  college my freshman year of college and [TS]

  one of my floormates now and i went to [TS]

  do laundry the dorm across from us and [TS]

  there was a girl there reading a game of [TS]

  thrones i had never heard of this book [TS]

  but my friend brian says oh that's a [TS]

  really great book and strikes up a [TS]

  conversation with this girl who i then [TS]

  went out with for like three months so [TS]

  that so george RR martin has had you [TS]

  know got me a date basically because you [TS]

  because your friend had rather because [TS]

  my friend had read it I know I didn't [TS]

  even have to do the hard work there and [TS]

  to this day dan has not read the books [TS]

  anyways that was but I did read them [TS]

  like the summer after that [TS]

  and I've read them I guess only two [TS]

  maybe three red at that point that would [TS]

  have been like 1999 I guess maybe only [TS]

  to that point but I read the other set [TS]

  that as they came out before the fourth [TS]

  one came out i reread the first three so [TS]

  I guess that was 2005-6 somewhere in [TS]

  there so yeah I've read all I've read [TS]

  the books twice except for the fourth [TS]

  one and and it's still yet it's still [TS]

  been like six years since i think i was [TS]

  pondering that this very question [TS]

  earlier today so i went to amazon and [TS]

  search my order history to see if I [TS]

  could figure out when i first read a [TS]

  game of thrones and turns out I i will i [TS]

  ordered the second and third book [TS]

  februari third 2003 which leads me to [TS]

  believe i read the first book some time [TS]

  beforehand because i have no record of [TS]

  that book so apparently either got it [TS]

  from the library or stole it from [TS]

  someone so that it and I have no idea [TS]

  why i started reading them but I read [TS]

  them in 2003 apparent i read them when i [TS]

  read the first one for the first time [TS]

  shortly after Dan in two thousand or so [TS]

  because the writing group that I was [TS]

  part of it at the time I one of our [TS]

  members Robin was absolutely obsessed [TS]

  with this series and wouldn't stop [TS]

  talking about it and in fact I think had [TS]

  written to full-length novels in this [TS]

  universe and at the time she's like I [TS]

  need people to read them and I'm like [TS]

  well in order to read your novels I i [TS]

  think i probably have to read the story [TS]

  that it's based in first so i picked up [TS]

  all three from the library at the time [TS]

  there were three out it was a storm of [TS]

  swords is that the third one [TS]

  yes but I get on the the huge one yeah [TS]

  well I mean that was that was alongside [TS]

  that was the same year that I first [TS]

  started reading Robert Jordan as well so [TS]

  i was just reading all yeah I know [TS]

  I know you can make those faces i was [TS]

  reading a lot of terrible fantasy but [TS]

  this this was not terrible fantasy this [TS]

  was enjoyable fantasy but i have to say [TS]

  until right before the HBO series came [TS]

  out earlier this year I had not read [TS]

  them since I read them straight through [TS]

  in about a month in two thousand so I'm [TS]

  slowly like going through and reading [TS]

  them now and I'm in the middle of the [TS]

  second book I'm like I remember none of [TS]

  this kind of just vanished from my head [TS]

  there's a lot there's a lot there and [TS]

  then there's a lot of stuff didn't want [TS]

  to people in places and culture and all [TS]

  that well [TS]

  very i met somewhere that there's a [TS]

  thousand named characters in the series [TS]

  in the run-up in the run-up to the HPS [TS]

  here is going on in a george RR martin [TS]

  has said to several interviewers that he [TS]

  intended for this to be unfilmable irony [TS]

  of ironies that he wanted to make it as [TS]

  widescreen as possible and lots of [TS]

  different stories of huge numbers of [TS]

  characters and complicated and and and [TS]

  then you know here they are making a TV [TS]

  series happyish owed him [TS]

  yeah take that George that was that was [TS]

  the one question I i actually asked him [TS]

  when when I got a chance to talk to him [TS]

  was how he kept track of all of that [TS]

  stuff and he didn't really give me a [TS]

  good answer is just said he kind of [TS]

  looked at me and said that's my job and [TS]

  I was like okay but like to use like a [TS]

  whiteboard you think computers activate [TS]

  what give me something just like to [TS]

  think in fact it's a little minion [TS]

  sitting there that's just recording [TS]

  everything beautifully i just came up [TS]

  with a new character right now he does [TS]

  have a minion actually don't that was [TS]

  the story in The New Yorker wasn't it [TS]

  that there's a guy who runs a wiki and [TS]

  has a database and he's in like Sweden [TS]

  or something [TS]

  yes some Scandinavian country [TS]

  yeah we're with her is always coming and [TS]

  and he liked apparently now is actually [TS]

  a paid sort of like how they have script [TS]

  coordinators on TV series he's like the [TS]

  a paid assistant to george RR martin for [TS]

  these reasons you like send them [TS]

  questions of like who's this cruise this [TS]

  guy and a guy will immediately respond [TS]

  with the answer because he knows he's [TS]

  encyclopedia CLE catalog everything in [TS]

  all the books so he's like the guy on [TS]

  lost [TS]

  he's exactly like Greg nations the guy [TS]

  are lost who has the Bible of F [TS]

  everybody and who what time they did [TS]

  what I'm loss so they could do all the [TS]

  time travel stuff [TS]

  yeah he is the george RR martin has that [TS]

  guy minion any one of those yeah it's [TS]

  good to have a minion if you can afford [TS]

  one [TS]

  what would your minion do though Dan [TS]

  really don't know I need like I totally [TS]

  for a long time in one of my the series [TS]

  i was writing i had like a voodoo ped [TS]

  document so it's kind of like a mini [TS]

  wiki to keep track of [TS]

  because I would forget like a character [TS]

  that i mentioned you know early in one [TS]

  story would return and I couldn't [TS]

  remember what color their hair my eyes [TS]

  or something dumb like that now be like [TS]

  aqua have to go back through the whole [TS]

  like last book and try to like search [TS]

  through and find out what I used [TS]

  Scrivener for it's the same it's the [TS]

  same thing i was i have to say the [TS]

  people who do these george RR martin [TS]

  wiki's are laying down on the job [TS]

  because I am in the fourth book which i [TS]

  just finished there's a character who's [TS]

  in several previous books raff the [TS]

  sweetling and I was like hey he's just [TS]

  sort of like tangentially briefly [TS]

  mentioned they send them off somewhere [TS]

  and I went and looked up his with his [TS]

  george RR martin wiki page and there's [TS]

  no mention that he's mentioned in that [TS]

  book anywhere it's like come on you [TS]

  encyclopedia of fans you're laying down [TS]

  on the job here that just means you [TS]

  better sign up for an account righteous [TS]

  yeah I really don't want to do that [TS]

  although I couldn't balance on the [TS]

  internet someone that you know it's got [TS]

  to be that way lies met it is it is that [TS]

  way like we're either that or one guy [TS]

  gets to be paid by george RR martin but [TS]

  everybody else is just mad so so we [TS]

  should talk a little bit about the [TS]

  setting for these these books I i think [TS]

  one of the things that attracted me in [TS]

  addition to the fact that HBO is going [TS]

  to be making this into a series [TS]

  attracted me to the series that I've [TS]

  heard that it was like fantasy books but [TS]

  not like your kind of stereotypical you [TS]

  know wizards and witchcraft kind of kind [TS]

  of & Dragons kind of fantasy bug and it [TS]

  turns out that there are dragons and [TS]

  there is magic but it's it's not a lot [TS]

  but not a lot right i mean the first [TS]

  look you get hints of dragons but even [TS]

  then they're they're extinct [TS]

  yeah exactly it's really more medieval [TS]

  fiction that it [TS]

  is right i mean you get the Dragons at [TS]

  the end in sort of the the others at the [TS]

  beginning and those sort of bookend it [TS]

  but in between there really isn't much [TS]

  so it's politics and violence and sex [TS]

  and and back-slapping and things like [TS]

  that which is is you know he'll be [TS]

  anything but like little bit like the [TS]

  wire [TS]

  yes exactly medieval wire that's yes [TS]

  well I have level you know the TV series [TS]

  is a lot like the wire to and in that [TS]

  it's complicated know lots of characters [TS]

  but you know the wire screen [TS]

  yeah well and again there they haven't [TS]

  done much other than sort of you know [TS]

  like yeah there's only that little bit [TS]

  in the later books there become sort of [TS]

  more of an influence of the magic coming [TS]

  right but definitely that first book I [TS]

  mean I i remember reading through and [TS]

  thinking wow yeah there's there's really [TS]

  not like beyond that sort of prologue if [TS]

  you sort of forget about that it only [TS]

  becomes a vacant after then people [TS]

  talking about oh yeah there's some bad [TS]

  you know crazy dudes up in the North or [TS]

  whatever else not really worried about [TS]

  that will even with the crazy dudes in [TS]

  the North me with the others all you [TS]

  really see me you get like the blue eyes [TS]

  and the white hair and the crazy thing [TS]

  but you don't really get the sense that [TS]

  there anything other than savages you [TS]

  know I mean there's a sort of mystique [TS]

  to it but you could roll that off as [TS]

  just ok these are just crazy warriors [TS]

  who haven't lived among civilization [TS]

  four years I mean like it seems pretty [TS]

  clear that there's something to do with [TS]

  like the Dead coming back so there's [TS]

  there's definitely I think an element of [TS]

  the other letter is it supposed to say [TS]

  the Wildings yeah I guess towards the [TS]

  end of the book barrel but the well we [TS]

  have the wildlings are just feral right [TS]

  so we should we fire up the spoiler [TS]

  warning now [TS]

  one of the things that's most striking I [TS]

  think about these books and iĆ­ve been [TS]

  reliving it as I've been watching the [TS]

  the HBO series is poised RR martin is [TS]

  not he admitted in one of these articles [TS]

  that preceded the show coming on that [TS]

  he's playing a shell game in the first [TS]

  book that he he intends for you to [TS]

  assume who the main characters are and [TS]

  it's very clear you know Ned Stark is [TS]

  the main character in the game of [TS]

  thrones and so it's all the more [TS]

  shocking when they chop his head off [TS]

  I hope someone told Shawn being ahead of [TS]

  time i'll see if i seasoned veteran some [TS]

  unpleasant aspects i'm not in the second [TS]

  season while back and he signed a [TS]

  one-year contract [TS]

  yeah unless they change huge tapestry of [TS]

  characters and I mean that was the thing [TS]

  that was described to me in terms of [TS]

  like why this was its series that was so [TS]

  different from any other series which [TS]

  was my friend sort of telling this me [TS]

  going well the thing about this series [TS]

  is like they put people into impossible [TS]

  situations you're like how are they ever [TS]

  going to escape that and then they don't [TS]

  right right so so you know the it turns [TS]

  out that the main characters in the [TS]

  series are are like like re s dark the [TS]

  daughter of Ned Stark and jon snow it's [TS]

  like the stark children are our main [TS]

  character ones that survived once that [TS]

  survived right [TS]

  not all of them do and um and then you [TS]

  know Tyrion Lannister and and and some [TS]

  of the Lannisters who are the bad [TS]

  characters although some of them end up [TS]

  being good characters or at least [TS]

  interesting not entirely evil characters [TS]

  later ray they're complicated which is [TS]

  one of the one of the good things about [TS]

  these books is that you've got people [TS]

  who you like who do bad things and [TS]

  people who don't like who do good things [TS]

  and it is a mess and not clear like [TS]

  going into this I was thinking about how [TS]

  you know I was sort of going through [TS]

  what I remember from the books and and [TS]

  remembering that one of my life i can [TS]

  call on one of my favorite characters [TS]

  but like one of the characters that [TS]

  intrigues me the most is from at the [TS]

  beginning of the series is like the most [TS]

  despicable person in the book is Jaime [TS]

  Lannister like throws a kid out the [TS]

  window like you don't [TS]

  much worse than that right but he did it [TS]

  because he loved and sisters things he [TS]

  does for a little 2morrow is the real [TS]

  despicable character but like as the [TS]

  series goes on i mean like he becomes a [TS]

  little more human and a little less like [TS]

  evil villainy right like you know he [TS]

  loses his hand when the later books we [TS]

  can't he's no longer able to be the sort [TS]

  of great warrior [TS]

  you also get into his head you know yes [TS]

  yeah he becomes a protest a narrow [TS]

  viewpoint characters well which which [TS]

  does change your opinion of him and you [TS]

  learn some stuff about his past about [TS]

  things that he's done that's been sort [TS]

  of assumed to be terrible terrible acts [TS]

  that may have had different motivations [TS]

  and he has this very interesting [TS]

  relationship for a while with this woman [TS]

  breanne yes I made of Tarth which brings [TS]

  out a lot of humanity in him that is [TS]

  previously lacking and I kind of a kind [TS]

  of dug that and of course the other [TS]

  character I like kinda from the get-go [TS]

  even though here you're never quite sure [TS]

  where you where he stands as Theriot man [TS]

  who is also considered maybe a villain [TS]

  but he's also kind of a good guy in some [TS]

  ways like he's probably one of the more [TS]

  sympathetic character he never strikes [TS]

  me as a villain he always strikes me I [TS]

  mean to think about Tyrion Lannister [TS]

  which such great character when I heard [TS]

  that peter dinklage was going to be [TS]

  playing always be a little break so up [TS]

  Tyrion Lannister such a great character [TS]

  but he's always you know he's got this [TS]

  interesting combination of being very [TS]

  well aware of of of his place in the [TS]

  world and everybody's placed in the [TS]

  world and in a way that a lot of the [TS]

  other characters aren't but at the same [TS]

  time being loyal to his family in the [TS]

  way he sort of defines but it's [TS]

  fascinating because the his family's [TS]

  basically bad they're bad people and we [TS]

  don't like them and and so you like him [TS]

  and you're like well i like this guy [TS]

  he's a guy could root for but he's loyal [TS]

  to his family which means he does some [TS]

  stuff that you that you would really [TS]

  rather not see him do but the reason he [TS]

  does it is because he's still a [TS]

  Lannister and he does feel like he's got [TS]

  this obligation up to a point any way up [TS]

  to the point where he shoots his father [TS]

  down the toilet and kills him love he [TS]

  has this feeling the thing i love about [TS]

  Tyrion though is that he's Frank and [TS]

  he's not you know you don't you don't [TS]

  get that hidden from it you know from [TS]

  the get-go that he's loyal to his family [TS]

  and he pretty much says it straight out [TS]

  I think it's like the second or third [TS]

  chapter [TS]

  where where he's at the stark residence [TS]

  and and Jamie like something about you [TS]

  know [TS]

  oh I hope I hope you're not planning on [TS]

  you know doing this is like well why [TS]

  would I ever betray my family you I mean [TS]

  you get these clues from him from the [TS]

  get-go and he's and completely Frank [TS]

  every way I mean he's loyal to his [TS]

  family in a way that doesn't necessarily [TS]

  mean that he's blind loyalty to the [TS]

  members of his family like I think [TS]

  there's a greater he's got something [TS]

  bigger at stake there right yeah the [TS]

  reputation the honor of that house and [TS]

  hehe really protects that even when the [TS]

  people he thinks our dishonouring it are [TS]

  the people in his family like his sister [TS]

  or his father but the interesting setup [TS]

  is is that you've got the War of the [TS]

  five kings and it looks as if the [TS]

  Lannisters and and Joffrey whoever you [TS]

  know at that point you hate him and he's [TS]

  and he's done all these horrible things [TS]

  and he's ordered that you know you [TS]

  ordered the execution of of Ned after a [TS]

  deal was brokered by his mother to just [TS]

  send them to the wall all these terrible [TS]

  things and you're thinking alright [TS]

  though the Lannisters are going to get [TS]

  it [TS]

  auntie reham basically outsmarts [TS]

  everybody else and saves the day and its [TS]

  really you're in this weird position [TS]

  where you're rooting for the guy because [TS]

  he is such an interesting character [TS]

  esmart you want him to do you know do is [TS]

  kind of well as an underdog right now [TS]

  right except for traditional what he's [TS]

  doing is protecting these horrible [TS]

  people and you kinda wanna be like come [TS]

  on [TS]

  but at the same time you know he has [TS]

  this code which makes them interesting i [TS]

  also love you know and even in the first [TS]

  couple episodes of the TV show they [TS]

  really bring out the sort of great he's [TS]

  got a confidence that it seems like a [TS]

  lot of people in the show [TS]

  whack you know he talks about that my [TS]

  love that line the Utopia all dwarves [TS]

  are bastards in the eyes of their [TS]

  fathers just such a such a great like he [TS]

  knows exactly how other people see me [TS]

  also tells john snow at some point like [TS]

  hey you know embrace what you are [TS]

  because it's not going to go away and [TS]

  the sooner you're more comfortable with [TS]

  it like a better off you'll be [TS]

  I think it's just very he's got he's a [TS]

  very smart guy and I clearly he's worked [TS]

  hard to become that it's like it's like [TS]

  a it's like a little bit like a miles [TS]

  workers again is exactly that's the [TS]

  first person I thought of when i was [TS]

  reading this [TS]

  that's why Scott hates t really did one [TS]

  of the interesting things about the [TS]

  first book is this split storyline we're [TS]

  really in parallel with almost no [TS]

  crossover slight crossover you've got a [TS]

  daenerys targaryen and her adventures in [TS]

  the desert where her brother basically [TS]

  sells her to the warlord of the horse [TS]

  people and and yet and if you haven't [TS]

  read this series it's not quite as weird [TS]

  as it sounds [TS]

  no we're not actually a horse people [TS]

  know they're not happen address there [TS]

  like people here on horses so pretty [TS]

  weird though it is kinda weird [TS]

  yeah and she you know her brother has no [TS]

  care and he basically sells her in order [TS]

  to get the idea is to get this army of [TS]

  people to take back their their crown [TS]

  which has been usurped across the sea [TS]

  and you know there's some great stuff in [TS]

  there because she actually kind of comes [TS]

  of age and in the end she sort of like [TS]

  the last one standing interns in terms [TS]

  of she you know she's the queen of the [TS]

  well the horse people except there are [TS]

  many of them left after a while you know [TS]

  it but she's kind of empowered and she's [TS]

  got these dragon eggs that she throws in [TS]

  the fire and the hatch and then she's [TS]

  got dragons so it's very clear that [TS]

  she's in the long run [TS]

  you know one of the major characters if [TS]

  not the most important character in the [TS]

  books but in the first in the first book [TS]

  and really for a while she's just in a [TS]

  parallel story with there's white one [TS]

  character and then eventually I think [TS]

  there are two characters across over [TS]

  between her story and everybody else I [TS]

  mean she's on the other side of the [TS]

  Narrow Sea and the Narrow Sea can't be [TS]

  crossed by anything except ships and [TS]

  they don't have ships so why would such [TS]

  narrow sea before now you won't go on [TS]

  and I know whenever the others when you [TS]

  when you wanna cross the sea you of [TS]

  course need to get 10,000 mounted [TS]

  warriors because that makes perfect [TS]

  sense [TS]

  all I could say is they can probably see [TS]

  Westeros from their house probably the [TS]

  thing i love about Denarius though is [TS]

  that she starts off that first book as [TS]

  so like almost completely innocent to a [TS]

  certain extent [TS]

  like you have you have her brother [TS]

  basically bullying her and I the the [TS]

  phrase don't wake that you don't want to [TS]

  wait the dragon do you that that kind of [TS]

  chills down my spine the first time I [TS]

  read it to my gosh shoot this does not [TS]

  bode well for for this character bad [TS]

  things are happening and then she [TS]

  basically gets l2 yeah the warlord [TS]

  horselord who basically rapes her [TS]

  yep yep and I mean she she she takes [TS]

  such as marvelous transition between [TS]

  scared girl who's just wants to go back [TS]

  to the the house with the red door that [TS]

  she lived in for a couple years where [TS]

  she thought she was happy to this to a [TS]

  queen in her own right and its really [TS]

  really fascinating to read that [TS]

  especially nice first through everything [TS]

  else [TS]

  despite that I could never quite figure [TS]

  out if I like her not she definitely is [TS]

  like you know I i agree that the her [TS]

  transition is really interesting and [TS]

  like she definitely becomes a very [TS]

  empowered figure especially towards the [TS]

  later books where she's really like [TS]

  learning how to you know wield that [TS]

  power authority but she's and she's very [TS]

  ruthless to a certain point but at the [TS]

  same time you know I can't quite get a [TS]

  sense of whether or not i find her a [TS]

  likeable character you know I think the [TS]

  most likable I found her was the first [TS]

  chapter of the first book and then as [TS]

  chic as she grows colder as she grows [TS]

  stronger and more the more she goes into [TS]

  this sort of you know Queen queenly [TS]

  attitude the farther away you get from [TS]

  this person could ever be likable [TS]

  because you never really seen her head [TS]

  after that especially after the whole [TS]

  incident with the fire on the Dragons I [TS]

  think that's the last point where you [TS]

  ever really see what's kind of going on [TS]

  for her personally and not what's going [TS]

  on for her as a larger scope it's got [TS]

  that at that moment she was reborn into [TS]

  her birthright right as a dragon [TS]

  controlling monarch i guess and so she [TS]

  transforms from that innocent child much [TS]

  like the Petrified eggs were hatched [TS]

  into dragons haha very nice aesthetic i [TS]

  like that i like having this degree [TS]

  Bravo sir they do you know obviously the [TS]

  song of ice and fire which again you [TS]

  know is i see why it's called that but [TS]

  it's it's a little bit silly but clearly [TS]

  that sacrifice and that it over with [TS]

  clearly the overarching story here is [TS]

  that the the battle the battle is [TS]

  between the Dragonlords and fire and [TS]

  they seem to be the Dragon seem to be [TS]

  the only thing that can stop the others [TS]

  the dragonglass and the fire from [TS]

  dragons and so you've got this sort of a [TS]

  conflict building and then on top of it [TS]

  right there there's also the whole I [TS]

  like this like the red fiery God yet [TS]

  didn't whose name I can't pronounce real [TS]

  or yeah the gods always have weird names [TS]

  and fantasy series because they're their [TS]

  gods yeah it Bob would not be a scary [TS]

  yeah they don't want you to be able to [TS]

  print out all the ones I Californians [TS]

  and and double consonants and yeah it's [TS]

  a glottal that's basically like a [TS]

  Romulan broccoli god yeah that would be [TS]

  that would be such a twist ending we [TS]

  have been turning up the whole Klingon [TS]

  so so that and that's actually for me [TS]

  that's one of the weirder things is not [TS]

  i mean the whole idea of the dragons and [TS]

  the heat of the dragons in these ice [TS]

  guy's monster creature things the others [TS]

  that are coming from the north as winter [TS]

  comes I I i see where he's going with [TS]

  that and and it's interesting because [TS]

  for a while you're rooting for the you [TS]

  know you're like oh no not the Targaryen [TS]

  there they're bad and they kicked out [TS]

  the crazy king and and and but it's [TS]

  clear where this is going which is that [TS]

  that you know the nearest and her [TS]

  dragons are are the thing that's gonna [TS]

  save them it you know theoretically but [TS]

  the red the red priests and the end and [TS]

  the and Melisandre the red woman who and [TS]

  the fact that they're like you know [TS]

  kings who just died just dropped dead [TS]

  because of the red godz magic it's that [TS]

  stuff always struck me as being really [TS]

  bizarre because I I always just sort of [TS]

  wrote it off as i was reading it as [TS]

  being like Oh silly silly magic that [TS]

  won't do anything and then you know [TS]

  various kings just drop dead [TS]

  yeah that was the point at which it like [TS]

  you know I felt like the series move [TS]

  more into the traditional fantasy realm [TS]

  and I and in some ways I was kind of [TS]

  disappointed with that transition [TS]

  because I'd really enjoyed the sort of [TS]

  non magical atmosphere up to that point [TS]

  and also because I [TS]

  I think one of the other sort of [TS]

  sympathetic characters introduced in [TS]

  conflict with the red priestess which is [TS]

  a devil's oh yeah i like his music yeah [TS]

  he's a likable guy he's also wanted to [TS]

  sort of more honorable characters out [TS]

  there i mean because I mean I guess you [TS]

  can you can argue that Stannis Baratheon [TS]

  is kind of honorable but he's also kinda [TS]

  got a stick up his ass [TS]

  it gets kind of taken over to ya [TS]

  and so I mean like having that in there [TS]

  you know it [TS]

  II it's not feel very conflicted about [TS]

  that as a plot development but i guess [TS]

  it remains to be seen whether they where [TS]

  it's sort of where it's art will lead it [TS]

  yeah I you know that thing when they [TS]

  curse all the other Kings right and all [TS]

  the other Kings die but what what what [TS]

  is weird is that some of them died in a [TS]

  mysterious way right and readily get [TS]

  stabbed by a shadow right really is [TS]

  killed by shadow and and Joffrey just [TS]

  sort of like randomly chokes on nothing [TS]

  well he gets poisoned it doesn't get [TS]

  poisoned or do they just think he good [TS]

  I feel like it's poisoned by the same [TS]

  thing that I'm the what's-his-face Jon [TS]

  Arryn I'm not well Jon Arryn yeah the [TS]

  tears of the tears of lys or lies or [TS]

  have to say it but doesn't mean I wasn't [TS]

  sorry i just reread a lot of the sort of [TS]

  overviews before this to sort of refresh [TS]

  myself and they suggest that [TS]

  Littlefinger had a hand in in killing [TS]

  Joffrey when I read it I i thought you [TS]

  know our is it that they think that [TS]

  that's what happened or did that [TS]

  actually happen right is it that they [TS]

  don't get excited when they set up to [TS]

  poison him except it didn't it he got [TS]

  killed by the magic for my for some [TS]

  great but my point is that that the even [TS]

  that and then certainly what happens at [TS]

  the red wedding with with Robb Stark [TS]

  I'm a little out of control measure [TS]

  those are yeah those are plausibly be [TS]

  like well maybe it's bad luck or maybe [TS]

  it was a curse but like murdered by [TS]

  shadow it's just like wow [TS]

  because I also the guy in the iron the [TS]

  Ironborn you know that the King bail or [TS]

  Greyjoy [TS]

  yeah Greyjoy hehe like falls off a [TS]

  bridge or something until you killed by [TS]

  a shadow looks terrible on homicide [TS]

  report by the way yeah def by shadow [TS]

  detective general plan [TS]

  shadow it makes kind of sense though [TS]

  because I mean Renly is his younger [TS]

  brother and it makes sense that of all [TS]

  of them she would have a direct hand in [TS]

  killing him and the others may be [TS]

  coincidence but she can write it off as [TS]

  oh yes well I did this I did this in the [TS]

  red God answered my prayers [TS]

  yes that's exactly what happens oh and I [TS]

  also killed you younger brother did [TS]

  anybody did anybody else when reading [TS]

  the books get the subtext of the fact [TS]

  that readily is gay and loves the knight [TS]

  of flowers [TS]

  well if you don't get in the books [TS]

  you'll certainly get it need you know [TS]

  you're in the TV series it is clear but [TS]

  although afterwards I went back and I [TS]

  was like oh yeah the rainbow guard huh [TS]

  yeah and when the nighty knight of [TS]

  flowers is kind of a pretty boy and yeah [TS]

  yeah the HBO series makes it quite clear [TS]

  that that that Renly and actually [TS]

  reading piece a feast for crows there [TS]

  are several scenes where I realize that [TS]

  it's totally there all along and I just [TS]

  totally just passed over it and didn't [TS]

  notice all the subtext of how so lorises [TS]

  not not interested in the ladies except [TS]

  for San soon he was kind of I seems kind [TS]

  of like an ascetic you know [TS]

  no not well I don't it's been way too [TS]

  long since i've read the books I i [TS]

  create the HBO series will make it [TS]

  abundantly clear that abundantly so I [TS]

  don't understand what's going on its [TS]

  various guys ignore it yes the night of [TS]

  our flowers very pretty armor that's not [TS]

  what I'm saying he's a good chance that [TS]

  he was he was bluffing his armor for him [TS]

  exactly and advising advising him on how [TS]

  to be a good king [TS]

  sadly he will be killed by shadow that [TS]

  that is the trouble I have with watching [TS]

  the TV show is knowing all the awful [TS]

  things are going to happen oh man I know [TS]

  x 0 2 you're watching like Kaitlyn [TS]

  you're like all mad [TS]

  oh yeah catlin sure like oh man this is [TS]

  gonna go bad that was the most shocking [TS]

  even more than Ned that was the most [TS]

  shocking death in the entire series and [TS]

  then even more shocking to put it in [TS]

  quotes yeah well even more shocking than [TS]

  killing her is that then they record [TS]

  resurrector is like a half zombie [TS]

  version of fresh oh yeah [TS]

  exactly it's unclear well her throat is [TS]

  still cut so I mean you have that if [TS]

  nothing else and one another topic I [TS]

  wanted to bring up is that the [TS]

  direwolves which are introduced the very [TS]

  beginning and there's one for each stark [TS]

  child and it turns out that several of [TS]

  the star children have this connection [TS]

  with them which is most I think it's [TS]

  most clear and brand who ends up even [TS]

  though we can't walk he's got this you [TS]

  know vision and and he's proceeding [TS]

  north of the wall to speak to us to the [TS]

  three-eyed crow or something like that [TS]

  and John and and jon snow has this [TS]

  ability to worry sort of bonded with [TS]

  this dire wolf and area an area to write [TS]

  even though even though hers disappears [TS]

  fairly early on but it and yet its [TS]

  present throughout because they keep on [TS]

  wondering around through the Riverlands [TS]

  in the lake man there's lots of wolves [TS]

  around here in a big 12 and it's very [TS]

  clear that that's her direwolf surprise [TS]

  surprise that you never see it it's just [TS]

  out pci author out that she's one of my [TS]

  other favorite care i love re also [TS]

  because she's actually that like one [TS]

  legitimately like innocent like victim [TS]

  basic licking all this and and she but [TS]

  she also kicks a switch here right [TS]

  what I appreciate is that she's capable [TS]

  without being superhuman you know it's [TS]

  like she still she still has bad things [TS]

  happen to her and she still gets in bad [TS]

  situations but she manages to pull [TS]

  through and use what little training she [TS]

  has without make me her you know [TS]

  oh I've had you know six months worth of [TS]

  dancing lessons therefore i'm a master [TS]

  of the tiny sword [TS]

  yeah i got sad when they said they put [TS]

  her on the boat to she ended up on the [TS]

  boat to what Bravo sir whatever nose [TS]

  like now you're taking her further away [TS]

  from everything that's or is she closer [TS]

  who she's farther away she she would [TS]

  meet Samwell Tarly at one point is that [TS]

  it's in that fourth book who I like [TS]

  Samwell Tarly he said well Charlie [TS]

  that's a great carrying the fat coward [TS]

  yeah but he's smart it's like it's like [TS]

  I'm in the book because it's like Sam [TS]

  Gamgee I is it wrong that I picture him [TS]

  as sam from lord of the ring now I [TS]

  totally Sean ass on a steel you [TS]

  absolutely do that was the first thing [TS]

  it's awful to say to compare it to [TS]

  another character but it has to be [TS]

  intentional well there are several other [TS]

  references yeah in i think the only [TS]

  other things that came across the [TS]

  Wikipedia entries like there are several [TS]

  references to the wheel of time like [TS]

  there's even there's like a character [TS]

  named like like something from an [TS]

  anagram of like robert jordan or [TS]

  something [TS]

  I it's just one of their lives there so [TS]

  Maj in there to other two other [TS]

  fantasies that's that's why I can't [TS]

  stand the whole red God stuff is that it [TS]

  reminds me too much of wheel of time in [TS]

  parts like the ace today and like stuff [TS]

  like that with the with the red pieces [TS]

  and I'm like I this I really hope it [TS]

  doesn't go that direction not not having [TS]

  read the fourth book and only skimmed [TS]

  the wikipedia entry for this podcast [TS]

  well and that's something actually want [TS]

  to ask you as yet because I mean this is [TS]

  always the danger especially with [TS]

  lifelong fantasy series is we're in the [TS]

  middle right like and and Martin is [TS]

  delayed a number of the books including [TS]

  the most recent 1i mean this is the [TS]

  first book and again what 687 hear me [TS]

  out and also right so I guess the [TS]

  question is like are we in for a [TS]

  disappointment or you are any of you [TS]

  worried that this series is going to [TS]

  sort of peter out like I mean I don't [TS]

  know if he's got the whole thing I [TS]

  assume that he's got you know a lot of [TS]

  stuff planned out but I don't I mean I [TS]

  also assume that it's not like the whole [TS]

  thing is planned out otherwise you know [TS]

  the books would be written but I don't [TS]

  know do you I i bet i've read a lot of [TS]

  fantasy series where it's like it starts [TS]

  out good and you can kind of tell with [TS]

  the author ran out of steam or ideas or [TS]

  just got so convoluted that you sort of [TS]

  lost the thread and and I start to worry [TS]

  about that with us and there's there's [TS]

  three books left in theory it looks I [TS]

  mean I don't know what is that anyway is [TS]

  worried about their just kind of living [TS]

  in the moment [TS]

  well i think that that's always a danger [TS]

  right when you have some kind of and [TS]

  especially when it's so successful and [TS]

  people so many people are so excited [TS]

  about it and I can't imagine the the [TS]

  pressure that george RR martin fields as [TS]

  he's sitting down to write these books [TS]

  because so many people are excited about [TS]

  it and I'm sure that's on one hand [TS]

  very exciting but on the other hand [TS]

  awful because you know there are [TS]

  websites that are devoted to just like [TS]

  finish the damn book George and all that [TS]

  kind of stuff and people read his blog [TS]

  and if he mentions he's doing anything [TS]

  other than writing there like you [TS]

  shouldn't be watching football you have [TS]

  to finish your book and I who he you [TS]

  know it may suck who knows but doesn't [TS]

  yeah that's right and I don't know and [TS]

  they're there seems to be a little bit [TS]

  of people feel that George RI no reason [TS]

  yeah exactly they feel that he owes them [TS]

  something it doesn't really OS anything [TS]

  it's he's writing his own story and you [TS]

  finish it [TS]

  exactly it's just like the last episode [TS]

  of seinfeld right that of many people [TS]

  think that was awful but that's the way [TS]

  they wanted to end or the way they ended [TS]

  lost which george RR martin himself did [TS]

  not care for you know I think that I'm i [TS]

  think that if if we aren't willing to [TS]

  take a chance on somebody who's writing [TS]

  an intricate you know 3,000 page story [TS]

  four thousand page story however long it [TS]

  ends up being and I you know then all [TS]

  wherever we're never going to get it [TS]

  right we're never going to get anything [TS]

  but a 400-page book and I what I like [TS]

  about these books is that they really [TS]

  feel especially the first three that you [TS]

  can just stack them up and just read [TS]

  them in fact i bought the first two on [TS]

  the kindle and it was an omnibus edition [TS]

  and I just kind of blew through both of [TS]

  them and it you know it's one story it's [TS]

  not like there's a novel standalone [TS]

  novel here [TS]

  really it just keeps going and [TS]

  presumably will go to the end i love the [TS]

  ambition of that and I'm willing because [TS]

  the quality is so good i'm willing to [TS]

  take a chance because I like that idea [TS]

  that he's trying to tell this huge story [TS]

  and it's one story in all of these books [TS]

  instead of it being a series of [TS]

  adventures one by one that said I i [TS]

  think this dance with dragons book is [TS]

  going to tell the tale because it's you [TS]

  know feast for crows is almost like a [TS]

  stalling tactic was how this don't have [TS]

  the same but yeah yeah well and it's not [TS]

  even that anymore because he's actually [TS]

  added apparently Dance with Dragons does [TS]

  advance the plot from feast for crows so [TS]

  and he said that if they get to that [TS]

  point in the TV series they'll basically [TS]

  have to stick them back [TS]

  together but so so the people who were [TS]

  had the stories told the feast for crows [TS]

  their stories presumably will advance a [TS]

  little bit which is good news i think [TS]

  because it would be a shame to wait you [TS]

  know in more years to get the those [TS]

  those cliffhangers result but i think [TS]

  that will tell the tale because feast [TS]

  for crows for me was a disappointment [TS]

  because it was half a story and and [TS]

  because it introduced all these new [TS]

  characters and you missed a lot of the [TS]

  old characters if if but if Dance with [TS]

  Dragons is like storm of swords which is [TS]

  a thousand pages of good stuff i feel [TS]

  gonna feel way more confident but right [TS]

  now having just read feast for crows I'm [TS]

  like oh wow that was a no not [TS]

  necessarily a misstep but it was like [TS]

  not much of a step and I think he was [TS]

  feeling a lot of pressure he needed to [TS]

  get something out right and so he just [TS]

  cut it in half and said okay take this [TS]

  heavy load right i mean if we hadn't [TS]

  seen feast for crows they would have [TS]

  been like what like 12 years between [TS]

  exactly couldn't figure out how long [TS]

  time i don't know i think on the whole I [TS]

  mean I enjoyed reading the books in two [TS]

  thousand and I'm enjoying reading them [TS]

  rereading them now and I feel like as [TS]

  long as I'm enjoying reading this story [TS]

  even if the story goes to bad places i [TS]

  will still have had all that enjoyment I [TS]

  don't feel like I've wasted my time our [TS]

  group which is that kind of my feeling [TS]

  on loss to it's like I didn't care for [TS]

  the end of lost but i enjoyed watching [TS]

  most of it and then you know okay [TS]

  the ending sucks but it doesn't mean [TS]

  that I've wasted you know six years of [TS]

  my life [TS]

  ok maybe the worst thing was the worst [TS]

  that could happen you just haven't done [TS]

  like you know at the end of the whatever [TS]

  the last book is the last chapter is bob [TS]

  newhart wakes up but it was all the tree [TS]

  yeah yeah I do heart song of ice and [TS]

  fire [TS]

  it's nice it's nice to get in a good [TS]

  satisfying ending but you know no I mean [TS]

  I i agree i'm not i'm not so you just [TS]

  invited terms that i'm going to give up [TS]

  like although i did do that without the [TS]

  wheel of time I think there's a point [TS]

  for me where it was like and I worry [TS]

  about this book to you know dance [TS]

  dragons comes out and again I spent so [TS]

  much time like having to refresh my [TS]

  memory because I couldn't remember what [TS]

  happened in the first four books i want [TS]

  to go reread them before the next one [TS]

  comes out i don't know if i want to read [TS]

  them up there that could never do it [TS]

  again great mr. wikipedia [TS]

  it's very unevenly it's certainly a lot [TS]

  more helpful than and like what helped [TS]

  very much in this case I'm they have [TS]

  their own their own wiki to and as much [TS]

  as I Josh about them not paying [TS]

  attention to the presence of raff the [TS]

  sweetling in the feast for crows hello [TS]

  that was great actually the wiki of ice [TS]

  and fire because I would read the name [TS]

  and be like Oh what the hell is that [TS]

  and I would look it up and make a right [TS]

  that guy and it's great because i wasn't [TS]

  going to go back and read and you know [TS]

  2,000 pages and I will also say thank [TS]

  God that HBO is making a TV show because [TS]

  that makes it much easier to refresh my [TS]

  memory for any other things yes well and [TS]

  and i think you know to a certain extent [TS]

  despite whatever happens with the end of [TS]

  the story as a whole [TS]

  what's nice is that there are characters [TS]

  that have arcs that essentially get [TS]

  completed you know many of them with [TS]

  their dance but you know that there is [TS]

  nice there there is like basically [TS]

  resolution in smaller doses as it goes [TS]

  along so you don't feel like my god [TS]

  there's all of these thread now granted [TS]

  he also starts new threads but you know [TS]

  I think that's kind of what's what's fun [TS]

  about it is it's almost like somebody's [TS]

  it's almost like spying on like out like [TS]

  out like massively multiplayer RPG or so [TS]

  what I was you see all the lives of all [TS]

  these guys going in The New Yorker [TS]

  article i think he says something that I [TS]

  actually thought I actually told my wife [TS]

  this while I was while I was reading a [TS]

  storm of swords is he said he wanted he [TS]

  wanted a story that was like great [TS]

  historical fiction but that you didn't [TS]

  know how it turned out and that's [TS]

  exactly how these books feel to me it's [TS]

  like you're reading this history of what [TS]

  things were like in these amazing events [TS]

  that occurred and the only difference is [TS]

  you can't you know read a book about the [TS]

  war of the roses and then go to [TS]

  Wikipedia and look up what happened to [TS]

  everybody because it's not there it's [TS]

  only and you gotta read the books as he [TS]

  writes them and i love that you can't [TS]

  peek [TS]

  you can't find out what happened it [TS]

  feels like historical fiction but you [TS]

  can't find out who lives and who dies [TS]

  you have as long as god forbid george RR [TS]

  martin does not die before him and [TS]

  serious the thing that's nice about the [TS]

  TV even about the format to is because [TS]

  the the books are divided character by [TS]

  chapter which is i have to say is really [TS]

  nice having read other epic fantasy when [TS]

  you just have other chapters [TS]

  to begin with like 12 13 and you have no [TS]

  idea who's point of view it is the first [TS]

  these books that we state very clearly [TS]

  this chapter is aria [TS]

  this chapter is catlin you know exactly [TS]

  where you are and you know exactly where [TS]

  you can leave off if you can pick up and [TS]

  if so choose you want to skip chapters [TS]

  and just follow one person story you [TS]

  could do that i mean you'd lose out on [TS]

  some of the piecemeal stuff but you [TS]

  still be able to do that they also cheat [TS]

  a little bit in that some of the [TS]

  characters that changed names [TS]

  yeah I in the headings including the [TS]

  headings of the job yes [TS]

  so you're right this one or two but [TS]

  that's only what he needs to be clever [TS]

  and and keep you guessing about what's [TS]

  going on [TS]

  I so we're talking about favorite [TS]

  characters and I I i tried to get in [TS]

  with on this which is that I love I love [TS]

  the interior and i think is my favorite [TS]

  character but right behind him is Jon [TS]

  Snow actually who I love is just a i [TS]

  think is a great character who is going [TS]

  to become I think ultimately other than [TS]

  maybe Denarius i think the most [TS]

  important character in the series i [TS]

  agree i think john is jon is kind of the [TS]

  closest you have to the like heroic [TS]

  character right i mean for the most part [TS]

  of unfairly you know making it was not [TS]

  to sleep with people and then sleeping [TS]

  with women and and ya again and then [TS]

  only liberated them and having them die [TS]

  and all right that often present still [TS]

  as as as far as all of the characters go [TS]

  yeah he does see he has this very strong [TS]

  you know code you know moral code in [TS]

  many ways and Lee has the hearings also [TS]

  again he's the underdog guys right like [TS]

  he's the bastard you know who's going to [TS]

  make good his powers Lee has magical [TS]

  powers magical powers uh and I don't [TS]

  know if you are what one of the most [TS]

  interesting things about Jon Snow is [TS]

  that his his parentage is shrouded in [TS]

  mystery [TS]

  now that's right they had that was a [TS]

  great scene in the TV show oh I'll tell [TS]

  you about your mom next time I see you [TS]

  yes we're why very happy I laughed and I [TS]

  laughed out loud at that scene because i [TS]

  was like wow that's at least a dozen [TS]

  Robert [TS]

  oh oh wait oh it's one of the little [TS]

  pieces of the world that I really love [TS]

  is the naming of the bastards [TS]

  yeah yeah but they're all called after [TS]

  the sort of dominant feature of the [TS]

  registry problem disgrace to the snow [TS]

  and stones are the rivers yeah I just I [TS]

  really i think that's a great touch and [TS]

  it's one of those little things that [TS]

  makes me really enjoyed the world that [TS]

  he's built and I think that's something [TS]

  you know we've only touched upon a [TS]

  little bit as with the world building in [TS]

  Song of Ice and fires awesome like [TS]

  probably the best thing about in my [TS]

  opinion I just love the setting the [TS]

  world i think is really interesting [TS]

  I mean everything from going from the [TS]

  wall which is such a crazy insane like [TS]

  especially you know you see it in the [TS]

  first time in the TV show and you're [TS]

  like yeah yeah it's pretty big [TS]

  a giant wall made out of ice mountains [TS]

  and mountains that's nope [TS]

  the best no port in the world the thing [TS]

  I really like about the world is that [TS]

  it's all done tactfully and kind of [TS]

  behind the scenes where you don't really [TS]

  notice that you realize that you know so [TS]

  much about the world until your you know [TS]

  two books and you're like oh wait i have [TS]

  a really great picture in my mind of [TS]

  what this all looks like and I never had [TS]

  to sit through 10 pages of exposition [TS]

  right you know vague third person [TS]

  telling me how lovely the trees are when [TS]

  they bloom at night you know what you're [TS]

  talking about the world in a way that [TS]

  doesn't feel like you're being lectured [TS]

  to which is you know it's it's funny I [TS]

  had that realization when I was watching [TS]

  the TV show and trying to explain who [TS]

  some of the characters were in my wife [TS]

  and and and realized that you know I [TS]

  would never have been able to memorize [TS]

  the various families during the war of [TS]

  the roses or you know any other kind of [TS]

  medieval series of your battles between [TS]

  noble families and I'm like oh yeah i [TS]

  can tell you all about the Turk Arians [TS]

  and the Starks and the and the beareth [TS]

  eons and and the Lannisters and what [TS]

  their symbols are and what their colors [TS]

  are and how did I learn all this stuff [TS]

  that's 2,000 pages of george RR martin [TS]

  history teachers to take a leaf from [TS]

  this book if only it were real teach [TS]

  Westeros in schools will be a great bump [TS]

  w great bumper sticker by the way teach [TS]

  Westeros [TS]

  what would Tyrion do probably you know [TS]

  the higher and bring ya back i also love [TS]

  the number of the number of shifty [TS]

  characters [TS]

  yes you get like tyrion you get RS yeah [TS]

  a little finger like they're such great [TS]

  characters who are who are clearly all [TS]

  about intrigue in sumter fusion that's [TS]

  kind of refreshing and not all of them [TS]

  are you know stereotypical like like [TS]

  insidious characters only I love that [TS]

  little finger says to Ned's face early [TS]

  on in the first book just like you [TS]

  shouldn't trust me i'm the person you [TS]

  should trust least and Ned still trust [TS]

  him and then when he gets frustrated [TS]

  like I told you not to trust you like I [TS]

  I said it [TS]

  what do you want for me also characters [TS]

  who like to push other characters out of [TS]

  windows [TS]

  yes defenestration dip-dip yeah ask that [TS]

  I would make me do it Emma straighten [TS]

  that's right twice and lovely word [TS]

  prices met that that's like the [TS]

  climactic scene of a storm of swords [TS]

  right is that is that after all of that [TS]

  trouble to get to the Aerie fo ya shoves [TS]

  Lisa Lisa license Aaron right out the [TS]

  window [TS]

  oh she's dead talk about it and talk [TS]

  about super creepy characters [TS]

  oh yeah definitely up there yes crazy [TS]

  when she makes a grand entrance in the [TS]

  HBO series let me tell ya she really [TS]

  does [TS]

  well I was wondering how they were going [TS]

  to do her introductory scene when i was [TS]

  reading the book i'm like they they [TS]

  can't possibly put that on oh they're [TS]

  going to put that on television you see [TS]

  here sitting on the throne and her you [TS]

  know kind of like 10 year old son is [TS]

  sitting there nursing on her wall she [TS]

  oh my god oh that makes me wonder i was [TS]

  gonna say you know makes me there's a [TS]

  pretty interesting scene at the end of [TS]

  game of thrones with Daenerys that I was [TS]

  like man I can't wait to see how they [TS]

  handle the actual fire yeah i mean it is [TS]

  hpl it's HBO I don't think everything [TS]

  needs to be attacked they haven't they [TS]

  haven't shown themselves like willing to [TS]

  pull punches really which is kind of [TS]

  refreshing in some ways but also you [TS]

  know disturbing others the amount of Sun [TS]

  will not even subtle pornography in the [TS]

  books always throws me where it's just [TS]

  like out [TS]

  wow ok where we're going into a chapter [TS]

  and then [TS]

  oh yeah someone someone's getting raped [TS]

  and they're getting raped in great [TS]

  detail in this book and it's not even [TS]

  suddenly or otherwise implied these are [TS]

  these are underage children or these are [TS]

  like people who are far you know it [TS]

  it'sit's they don't pull any punches and [TS]

  it's it's very it's a little disturbing [TS]

  I have to say it's bothersome to read [TS]

  not to go back to the the that New [TS]

  Yorker article again but some another [TS]

  you know it's a great article and and [TS]

  i'll put in the show notes but it's um [TS]

  he says you know it's a reaction to the [TS]

  kind of glossy fantasies that people [TS]

  have about the the medieval period he [TS]

  said you know people were you know [TS]

  people were married off young and and [TS]

  that you know 12 and 13 year old girls [TS]

  this stuff happened to them it was not [TS]

  this kind of fairytale kind of existence [TS]

  and and especially he said these fairy [TS]

  tales where the the working girl tells [TS]

  off the prints [TS]

  he's like yeah that didn't happen if [TS]

  that happened they would be dead or more [TS]

  likely they would be raped and then dead [TS]

  and so we wanted it to be that ugly that [TS]

  people get put into arranged marriages [TS]

  and they can't do anything about it and [TS]

  they're stuck with it and it's miserable [TS]

  and you know and and so he put that all [TS]

  in there and it's lovely isn't it yeah [TS]

  there are some brutal scenes very early [TS]

  i mean like as again i refresh because I [TS]

  just watch the second episode i think [TS]

  the TV show that the scene where Arya's [TS]

  fencing with the butcher's boy the [TS]

  bushes well yeah and then Joffrey of [TS]

  course shows up and ruins everything as [TS]

  his is want but the picture basically [TS]

  gets written down later and killed by [TS]

  the San firmed clean the dog [TS]

  yes and you know it was you know an [TS]

  innocent basically I kid who did nothing [TS]

  right and like you know he just got on [TS]

  the wrong side of royalty and the end on [TS]

  the killing of stanzas [TS]

  a direwolf to always makes me really sad [TS]

  where you don't even really get to know [TS]

  that the the wolves that much at that [TS]

  point in the story and you don't really [TS]

  get to know sands of that much of that [TS]

  you seem you think of her kind of as a [TS]

  little bit of a pressed of audio Starks [TS]

  but at the same time you can't help but [TS]

  feel for just like all this that's [TS]

  that's terrible toll free so had some [TS]

  yeah [TS]

  Sansa Stark annoys that crap she's [TS]

  frustrating she gets better in the [TS]

  second book in the first book yeah she's [TS]

  still one of my least sympathetic [TS]

  editors i think i think on the whole [TS]

  area and brand actually I like jon snow [TS]

  a lot but brand brand kind of have a [TS]

  special place in my heart for her for [TS]

  him a little bit i don't know if it's [TS]

  the climbing or the or the the wolf [TS]

  connection or what but he just he's very [TS]

  interesting character the three-eyed [TS]

  crow [TS]

  yeah I always want more about Rickon I [TS]

  don't know engage in time a day I don't [TS]

  know you [TS]

  he seems like bad bad things are in [TS]

  store for baby reckon he's off with his [TS]

  frog eating friends right there [TS]

  going somewhere I don't know that that's [TS]

  one of those cases where it's like well [TS]

  I have too many characters i'm going to [TS]

  send some of them off and we will never [TS]

  see them just hide them somewhere my [TS]

  date but they might end up being the the [TS]

  king of Winterfell the only a live [TS]

  person at the end of the book right but [TS]

  read the last general would have died [TS]

  love walks back in which is you know [TS]

  hiding off-screen and he wins the game [TS]

  with the hounds [TS]

  that's right by default would be sad if [TS]

  the game of thrones said that I wouldn't [TS]

  it [TS]

  there is only but you either win or you [TS]

  die [TS]

  isn't that place and there's only one [TS]

  way to win the game of thrones and [TS]

  that's not to play [TS]

  ah that's a good lesson thanks i came up [TS]

  with a nice thank you thank you very [TS]

  much so [TS]

  so we've talked about it all this time i [TS]

  guess i should ask the question you know [TS]

  obviously to read all these you must [TS]

  have all enjoyed the books are they you [TS]

  know where they where do they rank are [TS]

  they you know are they find a ok or [TS]

  are they some of the better stuff i mean [TS]

  to keep talking about Martin as the [TS]

  American Tolkien which is awfully high [TS]

  praise and so I'm just wondering is it [TS]

  is it deserved how deserve this and how [TS]

  good are these books i think that it is [TS]

  difficult since it is one large story it [TS]

  is difficult to judge it until it is [TS]

  done because i think that it [TS]

  I mean clearly george RR martin knows [TS]

  how to tell a story right so i think [TS]

  it's enjoyable i like reading it I [TS]

  wouldn't have read whatever 4,000 pages [TS]

  of it if I didn't like it a lot of [TS]

  Kendall dots [TS]

  it's a lot of candles and I read it [TS]

  before the candles were around so it's a [TS]

  lot of heavy blocks [TS]

  yeah I didn't realize how long story of [TS]

  sorts was until i had read like a [TS]

  million pages of it and saw that I was a [TS]

  two percent exactly their long books in [TS]

  it requires a you know I'm indication [TS]

  yes and especially this isn't done it's [TS]

  even uncertain right cuz you never know [TS]

  so i think that I don't know if you see [TS]

  market told him I don't really like [TS]

  talking so that may come home d'Artagnan [TS]

  so I hope he isn't exactly i think is [TS]

  very good and I think that it is so [TS]

  unlike almost other fantasy well [TS]

  especially fantasy of that time when it [TS]

  was written now there's a whole bunch of [TS]

  more fantasy that is kind of like this [TS]

  that it certainly is an important series [TS]

  in the world of fantasy and enjoyable [TS]

  but I don't know what his lasting legacy [TS]

  will be I was kind of expensive exactly [TS]

  Wisconsin and i think i think the proof [TS]

  is going to be in the pudding once the [TS]

  the rest of the volumes come out i agree [TS]

  you know he's a good storyteller I've [TS]

  been very engaged by all the books i [TS]

  think in in that I i would put him up [TS]

  there is one of the fantasy authors i [TS]

  really like there may be a couple others [TS]

  i like more and that might just be [TS]

  having you know the scope of the other [TS]

  books in terms of the way the end and [TS]

  things like feel like they might have a [TS]

  little better sense of humor and stuff [TS]

  like that a lot of a lot of Song of Ice [TS]

  and virus very grim which is not say [TS]

  it's not enjoyable but like you know [TS]

  it's nice to have a levee break every [TS]

  once in awhile after like you've seen [TS]

  countless people get raped and murdered [TS]

  you know nice to maybe you know [TS]

  something that'll put a something along [TS]

  like a wedding [TS]

  oh wait let's move [TS]

  sure everybody at a wedding everybody [TS]

  wants our wedding that's what a cello [TS]

  mentioned the promotion for HP other you [TS]

  like the wedding episode yay come and [TS]

  watch the wedding [TS]

  everybody dies these musicians musicians [TS]

  are not very good i wonder why I suppose [TS]

  anyway so you know i i've enjoyed it a [TS]

  lot but i really i think you know in [TS]

  order i think the ending needs to he [TS]

  needs to stick the ending like i think [TS]

  that's that's what it comes down to for [TS]

  me if it really turns into like you know [TS]

  you can go back and and look at the [TS]

  whole the whole thing is a hole and say [TS]

  wow yeah this was a great story will i [TS]

  recommend this to my friends once it's [TS]

  all out there and I've read it from [TS]

  start to finish and say yes you know [TS]

  what you can you come on your conscience [TS]

  i can when it's all like yeah i can [TS]

  recommend to you this excellent book [TS]

  series [TS]

  um I mean I like that's the question I [TS]

  think Jason I think you and I might have [TS]

  had a conversation with the passes like [TS]

  whether or not and a bad ending [TS]

  sabotages everything that comes before [TS]

  they're there are numerous books and TV [TS]

  shows and movies that I have recommended [TS]

  even though I felt like maybe the ending [TS]

  fell flat because I felt like that the [TS]

  beginning the journey of getting to that [TS]

  point was still worthwhile and andrea [TS]

  was talking about lost earlier and while [TS]

  I disagree in certain i really like in [TS]

  many ways the lost ending or I liked a [TS]

  lot more than a lot of people do I [TS]

  didn't feel that it undermined the rest [TS]

  of the series for me I felt like that [TS]

  was still enjoyable in its own right but [TS]

  it's hard to tell somebody to invest all [TS]

  the time in watching a sixth season [TS]

  series or a you know seven books read [TS]

  the second book series if the ending is [TS]

  kind of a letdown [TS]

  so I around you know abstain from [TS]

  judgment until that point I hear it get [TS]

  compared to battlestar a lot actually [TS]

  where people not like that yes see [TS]

  that's the problem is that the ending on [TS]

  that for me fell flat i can't recommend [TS]

  it to people like there's some really [TS]

  great stuff in there but I feel like as [TS]

  a whole the end of that series really [TS]

  crushes allow the beginning of it for me [TS]

  but Ren generally to generally I mean [TS]

  this thing about epic fantasy for me [TS]

  while I once i get hooked into a [TS]

  a story i will end up reading it epic [TS]

  fantasy is not my preferred genre of [TS]

  voice why neither [TS]

  yeah but I mean but that being said i [TS]

  really enjoy reading these books and I'm [TS]

  enjoying reading them and i will [TS]

  probably buy the book in july when it [TS]

  comes out and read that as well [TS]

  presumably that I'm finished rereading [TS]

  the whole the books by then I and I mean [TS]

  on the whole yet it's definitely a wait [TS]

  and see game but in terms of I mean what [TS]

  he's put out so far I like and in [TS]

  comparison to other unnamed epic fantasy [TS]

  writers of the last you know couple [TS]

  decades is definitely higher up than [TS]

  them so that's that's where he registers [TS]

  for me [TS]

  alright then you mentioned other fantasy [TS]

  novels sub i'm wondering you rank uh the [TS]

  name of the wind above or below this I [TS]

  think they're they're very close for me [TS]

  they're very different stories and [TS]

  anyway I mean like they're both fantasy [TS]

  very different camps you know I mean I [TS]

  mean there's a lot more magic obviously [TS]

  name of the wind it's a lot more focused [TS]

  on that it's a it's in theory a smaller [TS]

  scope series ii notes it's very long [TS]

  hook in fact if you actually manage to [TS]

  finish it in a third book it's also [TS]

  focused very heavily on one character [TS]

  which is of which is a major difference [TS]

  but it is I'll I appreciate that i find [TS]

  it a little more even tho bad stuff [TS]

  happens and bad stuff [TS]

  most assuredly does happen it's a little [TS]

  more measured there's there's more [TS]

  levity you know I think that that makes [TS]

  it in some ways a more enjoyable the [TS]

  right word but like it makes it some [TS]

  ways more fun to read good but it may be [TS]

  lacks some of the scope or the like [TS]

  intense historical like Captain [TS]

  grittiness that the song of ice and fire [TS]

  has so I don't know it might be kind of [TS]

  an apples and oranges thing but i like i [TS]

  like both of those writers quite a bit [TS]

  and they both have trouble getting out [TS]

  walking book so I sympathize before we [TS]

  go I wanted to ask you I'd sew a dance [TS]

  with dragons right is coming out [TS]

  july 12 was finished today right when he [TS]

  11 it was finished as we record this [TS]

  podcast it is finished or so they claim [TS]

  will believe it when I see it [TS]

  does anyone else think a dance with [TS]

  dragons would be really awkward like I'm [TS]

  thinking like a highschool yes [TS]

  yeah like all the dragons on one side [TS]

  and almost there so you decide to cook [TS]

  corpses on the other side there is very [TS]

  awkward dance if you're a Dragonlord you [TS]

  know if you're a Targaryen it would be [TS]

  an awesome dance [TS]

  yeah you'd be crowned like prom queen [TS]

  yeah of course everybody else would the [TS]

  prom king would be horribly slowly [TS]

  murdered by a poison blade but hey [TS]

  you're the ball [TS]

  what does it matter if things happen [TS]

  make an omelet without breaking space [TS]

  dragon eggs haha after they've been [TS]

  roasted and fire am i right right so I [TS]

  oh what a dance with dragons [TS]

  you're gonna you know place your [TS]

  pre-orders and start reading about July [TS]

  twelfth you're going to wait and see [TS]

  what what's the anticipation level [TS]

  I don't know fire I'm gonna buy it i'll [TS]

  read it i is the question for me whether [TS]

  I really want to go back and reread the [TS]

  earlier books first off I'm just gonna [TS]

  sort of catch up the synopsis but i can [TS]

  guarantee that i will read it i have [TS]

  pre-ordered it will show up on my kindle [TS]

  and i will read it i will not reread the [TS]

  books i really have no idea what's going [TS]

  on i read the synopsis but it has other [TS]

  things you guys talked about I had no [TS]

  recollection [TS]

  so I'm just gonna jump in and hopefully [TS]

  remember the sheets so what with it will [TS]

  have a podcast in memory of Scott McCall [TS]

  that three rounds in a dancer directions [TS]

  it Scott like you it will be appearing [TS]

  magically on my kindle on the morning of [TS]

  july 12 and i look forward to it but [TS]

  that's [TS]

  that's [TS]

  why did I waited on on uh on the [TS]

  previous book until until recently so I [TS]

  wouldn't be completely at sea when I got [TS]

  to dance with dragons waiting forever [TS]

  the wiki wiki helps Scott that's [TS]

  whenever you get somewhere you like who [TS]

  is that guy again [TS]

  yeah i just look it up for for pleasure [TS]

  reading i'm not doing research i'm not [TS]

  going to wiki to figure out who somebody [TS]

  I just like okay I don't know he's well [TS]

  I i know that was it was a good [TS]

  refresher for me because then I didn't [TS]

  have to go back and look at previous [TS]

  books and see if i could find where they [TS]

  mentioned the guy I was just looking on [TS]

  the internet it doesn't matter that much [TS]

  to me it doesn't matter i don't care if [TS]

  Lord High valerian news related to Ned [TS]

  Stark and he stole a dragon baby and [TS]

  that's why the king is bad and everyone [TS]

  has to go get him in own over it is all [TS]

  the subject my air or if a little weary [TS]

  and mrs. Heath budos you said something [TS]

  very of household we're very pretentious [TS]

  exactly look it up on the wiki i'm [TS]

  adding a tree right now [TS]

  excellent also what that while you're [TS]

  there put in the thing about raff the [TS]

  sweetling because they totally missed [TS]

  that you're so strong up over this Jason [TS]

  you know I I expect my obsessive [TS]

  completest george RR martin wiki people [TS]

  to know more about characters mentioned [TS]

  in the books that have been out for [TS]

  years than me who's reading it in you [TS]

  know will fully late in 2011 and they [TS]

  let me down [TS]

  rafa sweetly he's like one of the people [TS]

  that Ari has praised for their death [TS]

  before she goes to sleep at night I [TS]

  guess I i got i got you i have no idea i [TS]

  gotta share with you i I just I just [TS]

  happened to look up that the blog post i [TS]

  wrote when I actually met george RR [TS]

  martin and I i I've found that i quoted [TS]

  an answer from him that I'd forgotten [TS]

  which I quite enjoy which is what when I [TS]

  asked how he keeps track of the [TS]

  elaborate story line to numerous [TS]

  characters in series george replied I [TS]

  have been living in this world since [TS]

  1991 these characters are more real to [TS]

  me that most of the people i meet I mean [TS]

  I'll forget all of you in 15 minutes [TS]

  haha alright so George are right I i [TS]

  think and in one hour we could perfectly [TS]

  well cover all 80 thousand pages of the [TS]

  series don't you [TS]

  yes Don done and dusted never need to [TS]

  revisit never accept you know in a [TS]

  couple weeks we talk about the [TS]

  television show right and when we talk [TS]

  about the next push damn it [TS]

  alright well so there-there you go we've [TS]

  covered everything you ever needed to [TS]

  know about the song of ice and fire [TS]

  except for all the parts we skipped [TS]

  because it's really long [TS]

  I and a dance with dragons comes out in [TS]

  july so we'll check back in after [TS]

  everybody's had a chance to read it and [TS]

  and and talked about it a little bit [TS]

  more about what we've been waiting for [TS]

  some of those characters have been [TS]

  hanging on the edge of a cliff for like [TS]

  ten years the fingers get my tired [TS]

  really have no idea who they're yeah who [TS]

  I yeah you're gonna go oh yeah was that [TS]

  a thing was he in trouble oh I had why [TS]

  this guy and a clear what is going on is [TS]

  it right and him and why is he oh well [TS]

  he's off the cliff now let's just keep [TS]

  reading [TS]

  that's the Scott McNulty method right it [TS]

  is breeding believe you're an accident [TS]

  until we cried and revisit george RR [TS]

  martin in the summer when we're out in [TS]

  our hammocks in our backyards reading [TS]

  poems about horrible things happening to [TS]

  made-up people in medieval Westeros i [TS]

  would like to thank everybody for [TS]

  participating in this exciting and [TS]

  informative podcasts got Mykelti sorry [TS]

  Scott RR McNulty thank you oh thank you [TS]

  i will need to consult the incomparable [TS]

  wiki to figure out who yeah that's right [TS]

  you should do that it's although raff [TS]

  the sweetling is not mentioned in copper [TS]

  with but which either nor is jason [TS]

  reitman it's very confusing [TS]

  Daniel RR more'n see haha that was [TS]

  pretty close how thank you for being [TS]

  here this podcast has gone for so long I [TS]

  feel as though I've aged a year in the [TS]

  time that we that's ok we're going to [TS]

  split the plot podcast in half and not [TS]

  released the second half for another [TS]

  five years [TS]

  good call good thank you and serenity [TS]

  are are called well thank you for being [TS]

  here as well it is my great honor and [TS]

  pleasure to be here [TS]

  I am Jason RR smell i guess just to be [TS]

  parallel and I'd like to thank all the [TS]

  listeners the uncomfortable from putting [TS]

  up with our silliness and by the way if [TS]

  you haven't read these books and you've [TS]

  gotten to this point what is wrong with [TS]

  you know but you know what a spoiler [TS]

  horn is until next time thanks for [TS]

  listening being comfortable [TS]

  goodbye [TS]

  [Music] [TS]

  and we have a podcast dedicated to the [TS]

  small character that Jason's sister [TS]

  happen rather serious lapse rate like [TS]

  Evans I mean we had a real genius [TS]

  podcast it's always possible he is he [TS]

  doesn't run everything you know you guys [TS]

  can host your own episodes if you like [TS]

  and you know but I'm just about 1 i'm [TS]

  not whatever this is great we should [TS]

  just have a whole series about like one [TS]

  character sucking but fire as the onion [TS]

  knight podcast i would be our onions the [TS]

  ned stark podcast it ends abruptly [TS]