The Incomparable

78: Clones and Telepaths vs. Love


  the incomparable podcast number 78 [TS]

  februari 2012 [TS]

  we're back on the uncomfortable podcast [TS]

  I'm Jason smell your host and it's time [TS]

  for another edition of our comic book [TS]

  club and this love is in the air can you [TS]

  feel like you smell it does love have a [TS]

  smell if it does I hope you can smell it [TS]

  love is in the air it's a that time of [TS]

  year valentines day coming around and [TS]

  who better to talk about love and [TS]

  relationships and things about the human [TS]

  heart than the members of our comic book [TS]

  club because nothing says love like the [TS]

  comic books onra so joining me here are [TS]

  two very loving people to their own [TS]

  spouses and not to each other around [TS]

  that came out wrong jason reitman hi [TS]

  Jason [TS]

  hello thanks for being here thanks for [TS]

  having me and Lisa Schmeisser hello [TS]

  hello [TS]

  attention comic book readers this [TS]

  podcast contains spoilers for many [TS]

  different comic book series so if you're [TS]

  afraid that we're going to ruin let's [TS]

  say the plot of invincible or many other [TS]

  comics like I'm about to spoil the [TS]

  people on the podcast so this is why I'm [TS]

  warning you now go to the incomparable [TS]

  calm and look at the show notes for this [TS]

  episode and we will list everything that [TS]

  we're spoiling and if you are afraid you [TS]

  can just not listen but we think you'll [TS]

  like it if you do listen [TS]

  alright with that out of the way yes our [TS]

  topic today and the comic book club is [TS]

  abroad one instead of talking about one [TS]

  book or one series we're going to talk [TS]

  about comic book romance you know [TS]

  interesting it suffers from a lot of the [TS]

  same issues as comic book story telling [TS]

  in general you have long running series [TS]

  you have long-running relationships you [TS]

  have relationships that come and go in [TS]

  various combinations something we were [TS]

  just saying before we started recording [TS]

  is Jason you mentioned it's actually [TS]

  kinda hard to find a role model relation [TS]

  reasonable relationships real reasonable [TS]

  realistic positive relationships and [TS]

  comics relatable couples yeah right yeah [TS]

  it'sit's it is and if you go back a well [TS]

  we just want to jump right into it that [TS]

  probably the poster child of of bad [TS]

  relationships with a clear example how [TS]

  this Superman injury also i was [TS]

  considered that was like a clip like a [TS]

  close number two but i will get a [TS]

  daredevil with everybody order double [TS]

  with Elektra your double with everybody [TS]

  yeah I don't think it actually started [TS]

  with Elektra he you know fell in love [TS]

  with this woman turns out she was deadly [TS]

  assassin happens they thought they loved [TS]

  I mean that part's pretty close to real [TS]

  relationships and died and she's not [TS]

  directed ya came back tied but that you [TS]

  know some often happens in the Marvel [TS]

  Universe it done oh yeah and it turns [TS]

  out uh Daredevils an interesting [TS]

  character when he's suffering so having [TS]

  him fall in love and then killing his [TS]

  woman repeatedly I made yeah good sales [TS]

  and good stories good drama [TS]

  sure so they then [TS]

  again with Karen page which was like the [TS]

  next girlfriend and but with her she [TS]

  became a drug addict / pornstar then [TS]

  maybe what you got the HIV I was one of [TS]

  them got HIV in there too wasn't enough [TS]

  for her merely to be constantly [TS]

  imperiled by his roster of enemy she [TS]

  also got an incurable virus and I can't [TS]

  remember which one right i don't think [TS]

  it was Karen page [TS]

  although she was a porn star of course [TS]

  for the drug money before she was killed [TS]

  and I was doing the born-again his [TS]

  storyline which was also by Frank Miller [TS]

  and the other hand is not you go to for [TS]

  your functional comic-book romantic and [TS]

  then from there there was a typhoid mary [TS]

  who ended up being a bad guy and then [TS]

  there was the last one they marry [TS]

  daredevil off to another blind woman [TS]

  could do charitable blind [TS]

  yeah Mia mhm can't remember her last [TS]

  name and her one of his enemies drove [TS]

  her insane and she had to go into an [TS]

  insane asylum like completely catatonic [TS]

  so the unlucky in love daredevil right [TS]

  all or all of these women are unlucky [TS]

  just cannot marry or date him or he's [TS]

  just bad news [TS]

  yeah it's like Scott summer you never [TS]

  ever date Scott Summers customers [TS]

  Cyclops from the x-men ya series of you [TS]

  wasn't lonely eight telepaths for people [TS]

  who resembled telepathy previously [TS]

  learned a lot of the odd thing about GM [TS]

  soon as Jean Grey who was Phoenix and [TS]

  then she died and that was very sad then [TS]

  there's apple and a red and they went i [TS]

  wrote that down and they went like a [TS]

  good ten issues before bringing back a [TS]

  duplicate of jean grey mantle and dryer [TS]

  right which like guys can again this is [TS]

  a recurring theme canna comic book [TS]

  industry show any restraint and telling [TS]

  a story in leaving things alone for a [TS]

  little while the answer is no you know [TS]

  if they can wait a year if you're lucky [TS]

  they'll win right Jean Grey was left [TS]

  dead for a significant amount of time [TS]

  right but the Madeleine prior thing [TS]

  happened right almost instantaneously [TS]

  yeah comparatively speaking out and they [TS]

  got married had a baby and then gene [TS]

  comes back from the dead and he totally [TS]

  dismantling it it like that and whereas [TS]

  gone yet completely nevermind the fact [TS]

  that he had a family and children with [TS]

  her it was oh my wife is back from the [TS]

  dead have fun clone of my wife who is [TS]

  actually I can't remember the plot to [TS]

  permutations one of them is that in this [TS]

  cast on the floor of the sea that brings [TS]

  us to the inferno store [TS]

  aligned they would you can get nicely [TS]

  collected now on amazon or your local [TS]

  comic store where it was revealed that [TS]

  Madeline prior was a clone done guys mr. [TS]

  sinister yes the brilliantly tire titled [TS]

  mr. sinister and learn and then she went [TS]

  on certain mrs. sinister named their [TS]

  child they didn't really know what was [TS]

  gonna happen to him it turns out he was [TS]

  going to leave to life neighbor hippies [TS]

  and we're like he'll find his own path [TS]

  exactly you'll find him so mr. [TS]

  technically his first name he you know [TS]

  they were inspired by mr. mr. the band [TS]

  mister mister sinister you right now the [TS]

  wow it i had a conversation actually [TS]

  with his broken cleanse and learn to fly [TS]

  well it's really complicated [TS]

  relationships i think that's what we've [TS]

  learned yeah read it happens a lot [TS]

  because they had that whole scroll thing [TS]

  with Hawkeye and his dead wife [TS]

  Mockingbird whom he thought came back [TS]

  from the dead and turned out she was [TS]

  really scroll an undercover scrolling [TS]

  all right Scott with anyone came we [TS]

  didn't even talk to Scott Summers ended [TS]

  up with the gonna ask the white queen [TS]

  right who was bad but it was good [TS]

  it's still hanging with with gene [TS]

  because he was telepathically cheating [TS]

  on gene with emma frost that's what [TS]

  again ok so tell me one out there beware [TS]

  of telepathy and clones complicated [TS]

  relationship knows why he's telepathic [TS]

  women date Scott Summers because if you [TS]

  can read his mind you know what he's [TS]

  thinking and you know it's not going to [TS]

  end well he's very complex and they [TS]

  really enjoy that like a rogue yeah [TS]

  are there speaking of whom is the rogue [TS]

  and gambit capo it yet and I like all [TS]

  three of us of simultaneously roll our [TS]

  eyes so that one can truly it's it's so [TS]

  here's the thing about these did the [TS]

  these couples come and go and some of [TS]

  them keep coming back like like like [TS]

  Scott gene but a lot of them are you [TS]

  know it is the soap opera thing which I [TS]

  said our earlier before we started the [TS]

  comic books are I've said this before [TS]

  their soap operas they are continuing [TS]

  stories in the same minute soap operas [TS]

  are and stable relationships generally [TS]

  not entirely but generally are not like [TS]

  to buy that kind of drama because they [TS]

  want to keep pairing people off and [TS]

  breaking them up and having affairs and [TS]

  all this kind of drama and so you've got [TS]

  a few relationships that seemed like [TS]

  more like bedrock [TS]

  well right now we're just talking about [TS]

  the mainstream publishers marvel in DC [TS]

  what I've noticed in my reading is [TS]

  nowhere near as fast as Jason so this is [TS]

  a tremendous caveat is what I've noticed [TS]

  this in smaller imprints or imprints [TS]

  that aren't supporting the types and [TS]

  flight sonra is you're more likely to [TS]

  find a relationship that doesn't have [TS]

  all the storm and drawn of of a high [TS]

  school dating Club well but there's [TS]

  realism injected into that bad [TS]

  definitely more heightened superhero [TS]

  comics relationship maybe don't although [TS]

  there are some stable ish relationships [TS]

  or have been yeah [TS]

  in the superhero comics there they're [TS]

  the exception i think more than i would [TS]

  have to go out there for the the big [TS]

  elephant around all of this is that a [TS]

  lot of that superhero stuff is just [TS]

  poorly written [TS]

  yeah and the idea of if you take [TS]

  somebody's girlfriend or take the main [TS]

  characters significant other and torture [TS]

  them [TS]

  that's just easy drama women in [TS]

  refrigerators women referring to women [TS]

  refrigerator problem it's it's angry [TS]

  baby are easy drama and if you're a [TS]

  mediocre writer [TS]

  it's like putting a guy in a Nazi pseudo [TS]

  bad guy you know it's not this is what [TS]

  they did with the green with the green [TS]

  arrow Black Canary wedding is and this [TS]

  made me furious because i was a huge [TS]

  huge birds of prey fan and they had done [TS]

  a really fantastic job over the course [TS]

  of birds of prey Gail Simone done this [TS]

  wonderful job of rehabbing the Black [TS]

  Canary character and turning her into [TS]

  somebody who is a plausible leader in [TS]

  battle and a plausible leader of people [TS]

  in the Justice League and she goes to [TS]

  Mary Oliver Queen and I think one of the [TS]

  last Simone issues are one of the first [TS]

  I want the Adventist I'm not sure [TS]

  anyway there's there's one issue [TS]

  birds-of-prey were friends basically [TS]

  stage an intervention with Dinah you and [TS]

  this guy have a really really bad [TS]

  history are you sure you want to get [TS]

  into this and she just blows them off [TS]

  and then you go into the Judd Winick [TS]

  scripted wedding where it turns out that [TS]

  she doesn't marry green arrow she [TS]

  marries his she marries a bad cough a [TS]

  clone [TS]

  no more or less it's a bad guy who [TS]

  morphs into green arrow and tries to [TS]

  kill her on the honeymoon night it [TS]

  happened it's and then what you're going [TS]

  to do the divorce rate is very high and [TS]

  i miss you [TS]

  Marvel and peep about that because i [TS]

  thought you know you've got almost 30 [TS]

  years of history with these two [TS]

  characters why would you [TS]

  is it really worth of that this the [TS]

  temporary spike in sales 22 [TS]

  spike this on the wedding night it it [TS]

  kind of speaks to this real adolescent [TS]

  fear of all my god relationships oh my [TS]

  god what did she ask me to do the dishes [TS]

  so okay that is a perfect segue into [TS]

  into the the accident I wanted to grind [TS]

  in this podcast which is that some at [TS]

  some point after about I think 15 years [TS]

  of spider-man and he and he had his [TS]

  girlfriend Gwen Stacy who was killed [TS]

  which i think is the exception that [TS]

  proves the rule right you can come up [TS]

  with a few examples of of deaths that [TS]

  were really shocking and basically [TS]

  basically permanent and she's with his [TS]

  girlfriend death in the Marvel Universe [TS]

  right where the girlfriend that in up [TS]

  yeah with a girlfriend in jeopardy was [TS]

  done well and not cheaply but it is the [TS]

  equivalent pretty shocking [TS]

  yeah but uh but then so it after about [TS]

  15 years maybe or 20 years of the [TS]

  existence of spider-man he's got his [TS]

  longtime girlfriend Mary Jane Watson and [TS]

  there's a that they are they get married [TS]

  and there's a whole event where they get [TS]

  married in the comic strip and they get [TS]

  married in the comic book and they do a [TS]

  special issue and all that and what's [TS]

  interesting about it is this is an [TS]

  attempt to fundamentally change Peter [TS]

  Parker from being this kind of kid who's [TS]

  who's on the outs to being this young [TS]

  adult who's struggling now he has to [TS]

  struggle with his adult relationships [TS]

  and try to have a job and have a wife [TS]

  and have a family with being spider-man [TS]

  so it's different but it's not it's not [TS]

  it's different in the details but not [TS]

  necessarily in the indie / she thinks [TS]

  that goes for decades for decades and at [TS]

  some point to reason that I thought of [TS]

  this one leads to mention this is that [TS]

  at some point the editor-in-chief Marvel [TS]

  Comics said i don't think people want to [TS]

  have spider-man be married he'd been [TS]

  married i think at that point almost as [TS]

  long as he's not been married before [TS]

  that it was at the at over 20 haha [TS]

  alright so but they're like oh kids can [TS]

  identify with that we want to make him [TS]

  single again and and so the only [TS]

  forgetting how many adults read and so [TS]

  they take this bedrock promising and and [TS]

  and they do it plus i got ultimate [TS]

  spider-man which they could you know [TS]

  which is that old old Peter Parker kind [TS]

  of storytelling they so they they been [TS]

  badly execute this thing where there's a [TS]

  deal with the devil made and they were [TS]

  there like retro actively time bubbled [TS]

  into not being married right count all [TS]

  the divorce now you have to have a deal [TS]

  with that divorce is too much of a [TS]

  bummer [TS]

  yeah i'm going to make it that they were [TS]

  never married but what's interesting to [TS]

  me about that is not mean we could and [TS]

  it's been hard on at length about how [TS]

  poorly that was executed and it was [TS]

  really reads like somebody sent a memo [TS]

  joe quesada send a memo saying do this [TS]

  and then they did it and there was no [TS]

  real reason story reason given [TS]

  I I don't want to talk about that as [TS]

  much as I want to talk about the [TS]

  underlying motivation which was we have [TS]

  a character who is in a stable [TS]

  relatively I mean yes they're clone [TS]

  sagas and she goes to the west coast for [TS]

  modeling career and all that but [TS]

  basically they were married for 20 years [TS]

  in real-world time and somebody in a [TS]

  position of authority said people don't [TS]

  want to see that we don't want a stable [TS]

  relationship with our character he's not [TS]

  as interesting with a relationship that [TS]

  the last we want to get rid of that and [TS]

  i think the the thing that proves that's [TS]

  not the case if you look at the get in [TS]

  trade paperback again now the Cravens [TS]

  last hunt which was the first storyline [TS]

  that happened right after Peter Parker's [TS]

  marriage to mary jane it was about a [TS]

  long time villain Kraven the hunter [TS]

  kidnap spider-man drugs him buries him [TS]

  and then takes his identity dresses up [TS]

  as spider-man and then goes and beats [TS]

  one of spider-man's other villains that [TS]

  spider-man has never beaten I think the [TS]

  vermin or something remember correctly [TS]

  and then spider-man wakes up after being [TS]

  unconscious for two weeks to realize [TS]

  that craving has now taken his identity [TS]

  is doing this thing and all of the drama [TS]

  from the story came from the fact of [TS]

  he's just he's a newlywed his wife you [TS]

  know what happened to her [TS]

  I've been gone all of the emotions and [TS]

  angst around like wanting to protect his [TS]

  family and her being scared by the [TS]

  spider-man character that's out there [TS]

  but is not her husband and what's [TS]

  happened to my husband like huge amounts [TS]

  of drama and amazing heart-wrenching [TS]

  story and then at the end of it once [TS]

  Peter Parker comes back and confronts [TS]

  Craven he kills himself because his [TS]

  whole thing was beating spider-man and [TS]

  by taking his identity and being as [TS]

  villain he has now become better than [TS]

  spider-man doesn't need to fight him [TS]

  anymore he doesn't need he is pretty [TS]

  much just on with his life and kills me [TS]

  often it's actually been another [TS]

  meaningful deaths that I think is [TS]

  carried on comics have never bought [TS]

  Craven back the drama of that story came [TS]

  from the his relationship with his wife [TS]

  yeah it was one that was right after the [TS]

  marriage and I think when writers today [TS]

  talk about married Peter Parker is not [TS]

  as interesting his teenage high school [TS]

  Peter Parker first like you pointed out [TS]

  they have ultimate spider-man they could [TS]

  tell those stories too and then the [TS]

  other thing is they're just lousy [TS]

  writers yeah and and maybe they're [TS]

  they're feeling is that their readers [TS]

  would rather have Peter have a bunch ago [TS]

  he's bunch he's juggling a bunch of [TS]

  girlfriends which is i would argue [TS]

  counter to the whole idea that character [TS]

  is he's not he was never successful with [TS]

  her what you know at least LOL broadly [TS]

  layer and now Sam it's better when he's [TS]

  done OK and the reboot and the rebooting [TS]

  of of of spider-man or the the [TS]

  retroactive debt deal with the devil [TS]

  thing they've turned him into like oh [TS]

  he's got all these girls who are [TS]

  interested in what's going to do and [TS]

  it's like what ever you want to get [TS]

  spine i guess that was their idea of a [TS]

  more romantic subplot that people would [TS]

  appeal to be I wonder if part of that [TS]

  it's very very easy to script beginnings [TS]

  of relationships it's very very easy to [TS]

  script endings and relationships and a [TS]

  lot of these endings from about four [TS]

  profoundly stupid reasons and what I [TS]

  wonder is if part of this is a [TS]

  subconscious attempt to mimic the [TS]

  experiences that a high school audience [TS]

  or even a college audience is having as [TS]

  they embark on their romantic life [TS]

  because there's so much drama instrument [TS]

  ring when you started dating in high [TS]

  school every to the like me to not like [TS]

  me with their friends don't like me so [TS]

  on and so forth and and by the time in [TS]

  your mid-twenties like you have learned [TS]

  to filter that out this is suggesting [TS]

  arrested development on a part of the [TS]

  core of the creators or their assumption [TS]

  about where there's something about the [TS]

  readers because i would argue that if [TS]

  you do it well you could show the drama [TS]

  that's inherent in having a 20-plus your [TS]

  relationship and trying to mediate your [TS]

  investment that relationship and those [TS]

  people against the demands that outside [TS]

  life has for you so tom defalco and Ron [TS]

  friends did a long-running and now dead [TS]

  series called spider-girl which was [TS]

  about Peter Parker and Mary Jane [TS]

  Watson's daughter [TS]

  who had spider powers and it's it's [TS]

  enjoyable for a lot of different reasons [TS]

  and as somebody who has a daughter that [TS]

  died i loved having a strong female [TS]

  superhero character and she's she's [TS]

  going through exactly what this classic [TS]

  Spiderman stories were except it's a [TS]

  woman instead of a man or a girl instead [TS]

  of a boy but one of the interesting [TS]

  things about that book is that it [TS]

  depicts a decades-long marriage between [TS]

  Peter and Mary Jane and he's retired [TS]

  from being spider-man because one of his [TS]

  enemies like he lost a leg in a battle [TS]

  and so he's got a prosthetic leg and [TS]

  that breed Richards built for him and he [TS]

  you know but it's and they've got and [TS]

  got a marriage is having a second second [TS]

  kid and and and made Parker the daughter [TS]

  is struggling with her powers and it's [TS]

  there's lots of great drama there too [TS]

  and it shows me that that you know it [TS]

  this should be no surprise that you know [TS]

  life doesn't end when you get married [TS]

  you get its different industry more [TS]

  complicated one of what a nice man yeah [TS]

  one of my favorite me some reason is a [TS]

  curtain people is a curfew CX tournament [TS]

  series on I got kidney Clark Kent who [TS]

  basically become Superman and I good [TS]

  well it's no it's an ordinary kid and I [TS]

  can't remember the title of it up in the [TS]

  air maybe it's killing me because I can [TS]

  see the covers and the artist beautiful [TS]

  and basically the for many that the four [TS]

  books did birth right now okay now but [TS]

  but though the whole arc of the series [TS]

  is first the first book he's meeting his [TS]

  powers the second book he's meeting lois [TS]

  lane for the first time actually her [TS]

  name is Louis Louis chowdhury because [TS]

  she is absolute is a secret identity [TS]

  yes I believe it is Superman secret [TS]

  identity and it's fantastic because [TS]

  basically the whole arc is him trying to [TS]

  balance having superpowers and and doing [TS]

  good in the world against the fact that [TS]

  he very much loves his wife Lois and he [TS]

  loves his twin girls and the last book [TS]

  is it basically is is the fruits of this [TS]

  30-odd your marriage he has and discover [TS]

  that his girls independent superpowers [TS]

  as well and how he mediates the worry he [TS]

  has for having superpower children and [TS]

  and his wife at some point is like what [TS]

  well now you know what I've been feeling [TS]

  for the last however many years and it's [TS]

  just this beautiful little panel because [TS]

  it's it packs so much history and and [TS]

  emotion into one tiny exchange and it's [TS]

  one of the most positive depictions of [TS]

  the premise that you can be a superhero [TS]

  and still have a healthy robust [TS]

  functional romantic life thank God it [TS]

  was an elseworlds tale that if it yeah [TS]

  that's as we used to call it an [TS]

  imaginary story i like those real [TS]

  stories also exist so Lois and Clark are [TS]

  one of those bedrock relationships that [TS]

  that don't mean they do come and go [TS]

  occasionally but they're mostly there i [TS]

  think they've got married several times [TS]

  that's right well yes like Phyllis [TS]

  Diller in that way [TS]

  Reed Richards at Reed Richards and Sue [TS]

  Storm Richards are another example and [TS]

  there's really a bedrock relationship [TS]

  marriage that's that going aside from [TS]

  that time when she ran off with her [TS]

  brother and he got an army of [TS]

  super-powered criminals to hunt them [TS]

  down [TS]

  well you know within a few exceptions [TS]

  they have essentially been they've had [TS]

  some spat ya right they separate and has [TS]

  their different writers but they've also [TS]

  had but sadly and start married they [TS]

  started as a boyfriend/girlfriend and [TS]

  then they got married when they started [TS]

  as anything hit on him is like a 40 year [TS]

  old guy he ages the other direction but [TS]

  it was the 60s and they have kids right [TS]

  which is they have 18 children now for [TS]

  four decades has got everything time [TS]

  there was Franklin Ellery yeah and they [TS]

  had we in a great during a John Burns [TS]

  run which is considered I think the [TS]

  second greatest run after Stanley in be [TS]

  great I they had a miscarriage and she [TS]

  was pregnant for many many many issues [TS]

  know how long exactly it was and she [TS]

  went into labor and read had be fighting [TS]

  Doctor Octopus to coral as you did he do [TS]

  and during it all she's nobody said this [TS]

  wasn't going to be complicated but she's [TS]

  in the hospital i dealing with this is [TS]

  he's trying to get back to his wife and [TS]

  by the time he does [TS]

  she's already miscarried or telescope [TS]

  Bergen and it's just have really really [TS]

  touching scene and again drama that you [TS]

  can have with mature relationships and [TS]

  and other things and that's the fact [TS]

  they have two kids [TS]

  yeah and who only occasionally I i was [TS]

  just reading the mark waid fantastic [TS]

  four runs [TS]

  the early two thousands and in that [TS]

  Franklin was literally sent to hell yeah [TS]

  that's right to be tortured for a little [TS]

  while and that caused some concern if we [TS]

  could get an idea how you can talk to [TS]

  you can talk to Giuliana Rasputin about [TS]

  that making billion on greater actualize [TS]

  why stop there why stop treating X [TS]

  Factor because I do like Peter David is [TS]

  a writer and I was a big fan of that I [TS]

  was a big fan of the series because i [TS]

  think the way just X Factor know it was [TS]

  the I think the first iteration where [TS]

  matt mattox is running the detective [TS]

  agencies or no that's a recent one okay [TS]

  yeah alright that's what we're talking [TS]

  about that's the one that basically came [TS]

  in pops into existence in the last five [TS]

  years or so and one of the plots has [TS]

  been getting really drunk in his clothes [TS]

  bedding all of the women on the team and [TS]

  one of them [TS]

  banshees daughter whose name is eluding [TS]

  me at the siren [TS]

  thank you she gets pregnant and so she [TS]

  and Max become a couple carries the baby [TS]

  to term and the first time he holds the [TS]

  baby it turns out that she was carrying [TS]

  a club she was impregnated by a clone so [TS]

  according to the laws of the Marvel [TS]

  Universe the baby is but a clone and so [TS]

  he reabsorbs the baby [TS]

  yeah gross yeah you and that was [TS]

  actually the moment where i put down the [TS]

  book and said I'm done I'm out you know [TS]

  because it well because all they did [TS]

  after that was no she's angry and oh [TS]

  there's there's drama attention and [TS]

  so-and-so for you you're my baby [TS]

  yeah you know you could talk about the [TS]

  weather on a couple stays together [TS]

  through this kind of wrenching loss and [TS]

  instead it's like a drunken jerky used [TS]

  to clone to impregnate me which is just [TS]

  and telepaths yeah stay we make it hard [TS]

  to have a relationship right us that [TS]

  we're learning the other thing I'm also [TS]

  learning is besides divorce you could [TS]

  possibly make a deal with the devil [TS]

  yeah you get out of this fifth marriage [TS]

  isn't working or anything it's sort of [TS]

  like Satan's annulment [TS]

  I that could have been the title of the [TS]

  series why was I would have been better [TS]

  i would have been better than one more [TS]

  day so no and and I'm no more understood [TS]

  the point to it may really you know [TS]

  she's an old well we we had that [TS]

  conversation I think just like you know [TS]

  it she's dying to meet I maybe should [TS]

  stay [TS]

  he's not evil afterlife to keep her away [TS]

  from them [TS]

  one of the series I want to bring up [TS]

  which in my mind has the best [TS]

  relationship I've read in comics is a [TS]

  Sandman mystery theatre by matt wagner [TS]

  and steven biko writes it and I can't [TS]

  think of his co-writers name and drawn [TS]

  by guy davis largely all those couple [TS]

  other artists who have helped but that's [TS]

  very set in the nineteen thirties New [TS]

  York the run up to World War two [TS]

  Wesley Dodds come back from China and he [TS]

  does this very pulp fiction character of [TS]

  Sandman and he falls in love with a [TS]

  Diane this last name is going to escape [TS]

  me [TS]

  belmont who is the police commissioner's [TS]

  daughter and that migrants Steven [TS]

  seagull seagull kept going to go to call [TS]

  Thank You internet yeah I so the entire [TS]

  underlying thing of the story of the [TS]

  whole run of the series is their [TS]

  relationship and how it starts off in a [TS]

  kind of dating way then gradually they [TS]

  get closer and closer and she's like one [TS]

  of the driving forces in the comic veo [TS]

  it's the cheap is much you know [TS]

  nineteen-thirties appropriate but [TS]

  starting to branch out into that more [TS]

  modern woman and wanting to have a job [TS]

  not being satisfied with the status quo [TS]

  not being satisfied with where women's [TS]

  positions was back then and kind of [TS]

  finding a bond with Wesley and then [TS]

  eventually he let Syrian onto our secret [TS]

  and then at night she starts driving him [TS]

  around and being is sort of partner but [TS]

  it really in the best sense of the word [TS]

  like when marriage is really working i [TS]

  don't i haven't finished the series yet [TS]

  because they only released the eighth [TS]

  trade paperback and I think there should [TS]

  be two more and for some reason they [TS]

  like to leave a couple years between [TS]

  releasing these paperbacks but a their [TS]

  relationship is so amazing and it's done [TS]

  in stark contrast to a lot of the other [TS]

  stories happen to be rolled it around [TS]

  largely around like you know maniacs [TS]

  taking in skinning women and torturing [TS]

  them and some really really brutal stuff [TS]

  so even creates a stronger contrast but [TS]

  it's an amazing realistic [TS]

  partnership between these two characters [TS]

  who follow in in love and he ends up not [TS]

  being able to do what he does without [TS]

  her and it's not done in any kind of [TS]

  like pandering that's a really nice [TS]

  change from the usual i can either to [TS]

  have my Cape life or my love life but I [TS]

  can't have both [TS]

  that seems to be a constant source of [TS]

  dramatic tension see also that writing [TS]

  right and this is completely different [TS]

  and they struggle with it a little but [TS]

  it's more on she's trying to help him [TS]

  and he's there because they're a team [TS]

  because that's really what a real [TS]

  relationship is right it'sit's yeah [TS]

  amazing i think this is why the one [TS]

  superhero relationship that actually [TS]

  well not just one let me backtrack when [TS]

  wildstorm did the storm watch team and [TS]

  they did the authority one of the things [TS]

  they did on storm watch is they they [TS]

  made a rule that if you couple if you if [TS]

  you pair up with a team that you're off [TS]

  the team and their premise was if you if [TS]

  you're we can't count on you being [TS]

  distracted by your feelings for your [TS]

  partner if you're in the middle of a [TS]

  battle [TS]

  so if this is important to you leave and [TS]

  seems logical [TS]

  yeah and several people did and then [TS]

  with the authority they have of course [TS]

  the midnight and Apollo who are [TS]

  basically there Batman Superman analog [TS]

  and they are of course a committed [TS]

  long-term couple who's raising Jenny [TS]

  quantum and there's was just as very [TS]

  matter-of-fact yes we're here we're [TS]

  queer where 300 pounds and we'll give [TS]

  you a pass [TS]

  yeah well it's well it's ok it's going [TS]

  but it's also a totally functional [TS]

  relationship there's no drama there's no [TS]

  back and forth [TS]

  nobody gives them static about it and I [TS]

  think that and get beat up [TS]

  exactly and there's a night and Apollo [TS]

  are pretty tough [TS]

  yeah but between that and the other the [TS]

  other 1i want to call out in terms of [TS]

  capes is I really like the invincible [TS]

  has been handling it [TS]

  I was gonna buy it has written I've Adam [TS]

  Eve well not just that I was thinking [TS]

  the very beginning when Invincibles moms [TS]

  like so I've been married to an alien [TS]

  invaders yeah along now with and she it [TS]

  takes her a while to recover from that [TS]

  and it's a really realistic thing where [TS]

  she was the comic never lets you forget [TS]

  that she has betrayed down to her core [TS]

  and even though they're they're back [TS]

  together now [TS]

  laughter much of that was that was not [TS]

  an easy thing now he had to change [TS]

  because he betrayed her in a very [TS]

  different way than a normal betrayal [TS]

  what happened and he was a secret plant [TS]

  from evil empire and they shouldn't plan [TS]

  yeah and then she raises his half [TS]

  insects son by another larval queen yeah [TS]

  but it's it's a super awkward [TS]

  what it is but again this is but this is [TS]

  a great job of flushing out her [TS]

  character because it points out that [TS]

  she's like well this child obviously [TS]

  needs a mother and I will do it yeah [TS]

  well it's in it's it's it's a great [TS]

  moment but Invincibles one of those were [TS]

  about it doesn't take that false [TS]

  dichotomy of caper relationship right [TS]

  William what it doesn't set is say [TS]

  there's ways to do both because you know [TS]

  the whole point of being a superhero is [TS]

  not that you're this bifurcated person [TS]

  the whole point is that it's just part [TS]

  of who you are and and mark and Eve in [TS]

  that comic are you know not together [TS]

  when we first meet them he's got a [TS]

  regular girlfriend but it's very clear [TS]

  that Eve and Mark are going to be [TS]

  together and he was dating someone else [TS]

  as well yeah it's super here and it's a [TS]

  nice it's a nice progression but once [TS]

  they're together they also she's sort of [TS]

  like becomes his business manager a [TS]

  little bit because he's very busy but [TS]

  she's also got power so they're sort of [TS]

  like they're two superpowers together [TS]

  they can like get paid to catch escaped [TS]

  convicts and clean up messes and things [TS]

  like that so they got a little business [TS]

  going and then he gets sent because it's [TS]

  very cosmic oriented series he gets sent [TS]

  offworld for a period of time and she's [TS]

  pregnant and he doesn't know and that [TS]

  leads to a whole interesting subplot [TS]

  where she's pregnant and did she lose [TS]

  the paper just to have an abortion i [TS]

  don't have not read that far as she does [TS]

  not sorry I'm spoilers [TS]

  well okay I'm gonna get trade by trade I [TS]

  don't think it's really good [TS]

  well the point is now that everyone's it [TS]

  um she doesn't have the baby but she you [TS]

  know she goes through this emotional [TS]

  process and she gains she gains a lot of [TS]

  weight and the way it's not coming off [TS]

  she her body has changed and when Mark [TS]

  comes back [TS]

  there's this initial thought of like oh [TS]

  wow you know settle yourself together [TS]

  right it's like no this is me this is [TS]

  who I am and that's been really great [TS]

  because they're still together [TS]

  there are there [TS]

  you know always strains in the [TS]

  relationship you know diamond giant [TS]

  giant dinosaur supervillains can haven't [TS]

  their effects like clones and telepaths [TS]

  but i like the fact that that Kirkman [TS]

  invincible is trying to have them have [TS]

  these countries fails but they're really [TS]

  that they're really together they're [TS]

  they're a great match and they're not [TS]

  married or anything yet but they're [TS]

  they're really great match who has [TS]

  reason to stick to stick together in [TS]

  these things that happen [TS]

  clones and telepathic dinosaurs don't [TS]

  necessarily get in the way of that which [TS]

  is nice to see so a lot of in the [TS]

  superhero genre a lot of what we've been [TS]

  talking about is a the main protagonist [TS]

  being a male and having a female [TS]

  relationship yeah and exit except for [TS]

  midnight on Apollo but it has been like [TS]

  female lead books or characters who have [TS]

  also had relationships I try to think of [TS]

  Wonder Woman there aren't that many [TS]

  female lead but seriously either one of [TS]

  the challenging way I'm rifling through [TS]

  the vertical back catalogue in the [TS]

  reason I say vertigo is it's the one [TS]

  most likely to aim at women right in [TS]

  terms of readership but i can't recall [TS]

  it ya know now I was thinking there's [TS]

  that there was a miniseries called the [TS]

  witching which is about three women who [TS]

  were which is obviously Supergirl never [TS]

  had new love interests about girl i [TS]

  guess you could argue that the runaways [TS]

  is sort of a female-led book in the [TS]

  sense that it's an ensemble and it's a [TS]

  ensemble with a really healthy gender [TS]

  mix em um that said because it's a book [TS]

  about teenagers and the whole point is [TS]

  they're teenagers with exceptionally [TS]

  complex lives you're not really going to [TS]

  find any good examples of relationship [TS]

  where all I can pull out kitty pryde who [TS]

  has every every adolescent boy in the [TS]

  eighties you know left Kitty Pryde and [TS]

  she had adolescent girl needs want to be [TS]

  her [TS]

  well this is the best keep riding pretty [TS]

  nice right so so so she had [TS]

  relationships but I always eating like [TS]

  you know Gotye hated him so that was [TS]

  like I won't repair to the eighties I [TS]

  all my god hate him so much because of [TS]

  course anyway like I was saying they [TS]

  were essentially having non couple yes [TS]

  right right but this is this is one of [TS]

  those samples where at least as I've you [TS]

  didn't diagnose that most people did [TS]

  that they were thinking of it from his [TS]

  perspective I I never thought that that [TS]

  could these relationships were her being [TS]

  paired with people it was who is going [TS]

  to be paired with her [TS]

  and of course that's what I think you [TS]

  referenced earlier of course Peter [TS]

  Parker gets kitty pryde in ultimate [TS]

  ultimate spider-man right which is [TS]

  hilarious and like why did nobody think [TS]

  of it notes because their ages were to [TS]

  have different in the regular Marvel [TS]

  Universe but that's somebody and Peter [TS]

  and and and Kitty specifically where [TS]

  they had this sort of she's young but [TS]

  she loves she's at release a crush on [TS]

  him and he's older and he's trying to [TS]

  hold her arms length but you know India [TS]

  something they're like they would throw [TS]

  you just again I said this is somebody [TS]

  who read this during the eighties you [TS]

  know we go as I traveled the arc from [TS]

  elementary school through high school [TS]

  they would throw you just enough to know [TS]

  there's hope as soon as she gets older [TS]

  oh my gosh one of these days he's gonna [TS]

  notice that she got kidnapped by Caliban [TS]

  yeah the source for a while and then [TS]

  they bring her back she married and then [TS]

  she ran into people's demand and you [TS]

  know the later on yeah but it was just [TS]

  all my gosh that was one of the great [TS]

  unconsummated or i should say one of the [TS]

  great non-relational joss whedon [TS]

  consummated a boy [TS]

  yeah I don't think I don't acknowledge [TS]

  that that's an alternate universes far [TS]

  as I'm pretty private much integrated I [TS]

  Bendis and ultimate yeah yeah yeah then [TS]

  she ever was that was that was a [TS]

  masterstroke ultimate spider-man the [TS]

  first you know the first edition of [TS]

  ultimate spider-man with Peter Parker [TS]

  and mary jane and Gwen Stacy and Kitty [TS]

  Pryde yes you're right that's three [TS]

  pretty he's got a pretty good batting [TS]

  average there if he's got those three [TS]

  women interesting him but all those [TS]

  relationship or different [TS]

  yeah and they were all really good like [TS]

  the mary-jane Peter relationship and [TS]

  ultimate spider-man is way more [TS]

  believable and understandable with [TS]

  detail about who these people are and [TS]

  here they work together why they be [TS]

  invented the Marvel Universe although it [TS]

  was always its independence things he [TS]

  was always treated more as a hapless [TS]

  victim of the relationships I mean they [TS]

  were completely with women driven women [TS]

  dominated and I think it actually goes [TS]

  back to one of the high school [TS]

  well noted that word acumen totally [TS]

  clueless about one of the ethos in all [TS]

  these tights and flights books though [TS]

  which is which is that oh these guys are [TS]

  great at beating the crap out of each [TS]

  other on top of the Empire State [TS]

  Building but oh they're helpless when [TS]

  pepper pops depths tops are dainty [TS]

  little [TS]

  whatever when it's such a human emotions [TS]

  come into play and when they do they [TS]

  don't have the power to just do whatever [TS]

  they want and not everyone is as great [TS]

  and all aspects of their life you know [TS]

  because you're good at your job doesn't [TS]

  mean you're yeah that's what yeah [TS]

  not everyone is that well-rounded yeah [TS]

  that was and and so I was like that [TS]

  about the about that but the it was a [TS]

  stroke of genius to put kitty pryde and [TS]

  Peter Parker's high school [TS]

  well but Kitty Pryde and and Bobby Drake [TS]

  and uh and I storm storm was your agency [TS]

  also super high school [TS]

  yeah it's great i'm sorry that story [TS]

  didn't go on library I wouldn't think [TS]

  that was not really that again i would [TS]

  talk that was pretty yeah I i recently [TS]

  invested all of my ultimate spider-man [TS]

  trades and now I'm kind of wishing i had [TS]

  i would love to go back I would actually [TS]

  you can borrow my hardcovers marveling [TS]

  at how long can you please do a nun told [TS]

  and untold tales series i don't think [TS]

  I'm smarter arrow high school [TS]

  yeah I don't superhero highest i can't [TS]

  remember the name of the title that came [TS]

  out of years ago I think it was a I [TS]

  think it was a wild storm title i know [TS]

  it starts than I but it was basically [TS]

  about a superhero high school [TS]

  um and what I remember is they tried to [TS]

  do what basically amounted to hyper text [TS]

  on the page where you have the comics [TS]

  and then you'd have all of these little [TS]

  back 20 blurbs that were call-outs and [TS]

  imposed it's gonna drive me crazy [TS]

  because I can you can see the futuristic [TS]

  font they used in the covers it was like [TS]

  a 13 issue series i want to say back [TS]

  circuit 2004-2005 where they basically [TS]

  did a superhero high school and the idea [TS]

  was it would be even worse than regular [TS]

  high school [TS]

  sure well because in addition to the [TS]

  usual petty jealousies and so on and so [TS]

  forth [TS]

  you had people who would not hesitate to [TS]

  nuke each other because they have the [TS]

  power to do so or people who turn each [TS]

  other into bats or what have you ever in [TS]

  teenagers show lousy restraint yeah and [TS]

  that was basically the premise was these [TS]

  people did terrible things to each other [TS]

  because they have poor impulse control [TS]

  Sam so if you had to pick one favorite [TS]

  comic-book relationship from your your [TS]

  comic book reading but what would it be [TS]

  will be the one that you would pick as [TS]

  long as we already talked about its the [TS]

  the Diane belmont Wesley Dodds Sam and [TS]

  mystery theater i would read that over [TS]

  and over for the relationship [TS]

  all right Lisa [TS]

  see now I want to read that too um [TS]

  that's good that's part of why we're [TS]

  here [TS]

  I kind of want to divide it into tights [TS]

  vs non tights sure that I'm one of the [TS]

  things i noticed we focus a lot of [TS]

  superheroes we haven't really talked [TS]

  about the non-superhero a lot of the non [TS]

  superhero genre is just like literature [TS]

  in that it's got a lot of realism and [TS]

  more of a event where I was going to [TS]

  mention the walking dead which is not [TS]

  super realistic in the zombies but then [TS]

  christman but there's some really and [TS]

  there's a marriage and there's some [TS]

  issues and some of them are but it's [TS]

  licensed marriage but it right but this [TS]

  is a story right bullet to that is it [TS]

  but it's a story and and and it doesn't [TS]

  seem mean I the relationships in non [TS]

  superhero comics see more or less i [TS]

  would think about as well handled as [TS]

  your average relationship and other [TS]

  works which is some of them are good and [TS]

  some of them are bad [TS]

  yeah because i was gonna say free i love [TS]

  the book scalp for example but it drives [TS]

  me nuts but they do with the [TS]

  relationships and that which is to say [TS]

  horrible horrible dramatic drawn-out [TS]

  things um I have a soft spot for the [TS]

  dignity is Ralph ensued knee because [TS]

  they were that ended poorly [TS]

  well yes and no yes and no because [TS]

  granted her brutal rape and murder was [TS]

  what was a challenge on it was nice [TS]

  quality their own horn but we're all [TS]

  laughing our terrible terrible way that [TS]

  how horrible that it was out of left [TS]

  field a bright because they take this [TS]

  character she and she and route soon [TS]

  Ralph had this [TS]

  it was almost like Nick and Nora Charles [TS]

  we're basically these globe-trotting [TS]

  wisecracking mystery-solving people and [TS]

  oh yes he happens to be elastic men and [TS]

  so you had this solid functional [TS]

  marriage and I realized the reason they [TS]

  decided to these terrible things to [TS]

  Sydney was it was supposed to shock you [TS]

  to your core that this beloved and [TS]

  stable member of the DC universe was so [TS]

  horribly violated [TS]

  however um first of all people were [TS]

  really taken aback that it was sued me [TS]

  and not in the MS Reed more type away [TS]

  but run it out to you monsters [TS]

  however it ends with Ralph dying too and [TS]

  they're reunited and now they're solving [TS]

  crimes in the afterlife and so I like [TS]

  that they got back together I think [TS]

  that's sweet afterlife crimes right [TS]

  there wasn't any ghosts detectives know [TS]

  the ghost times now and I like that [TS]

  they're back together and back to being [TS]

  there Bantry old self [TS]

  um I wanted to complain about the [TS]

  relationships on fables but we've I [TS]

  think we've passed that on [TS]

  but if you ever if you wanted to read [TS]

  what are you saying fairytale [TS]

  relationships don't go well Tucker don't [TS]

  live happily ever after [TS]

  no they there is a Brahma killer well no [TS]

  I actually a lot of complaints about the [TS]

  snow white baby relationship because [TS]

  that one is going entirely too well [TS]

  considering the tremendous amounts of [TS]

  baggage they bring to the relationship [TS]

  and the fact that he got her pregnant [TS]

  when she was out of her mind with [TS]

  hallucinations or something um wasn't he [TS]

  out of his mind [TS]

  she was the one who know because he [TS]

  because I believe that I they may have [TS]

  both been idea why but it wasn't long is [TS]

  a wolf [TS]

  yeah and the and the Northland also [TS]

  right [TS]

  yeah we can do but plans telepaths and I [TS]

  mean if you were old but if you really [TS]

  if you're really craving an up-and-down [TS]

  type of drama with them with the romance [TS]

  and the riding off into the sunset [TS]

  I know you don't care for the book but [TS]

  preacher is actually a great romantic [TS]

  story about you know there's a definite [TS]

  are really really it is it is they work [TS]

  out their differences in every couple [TS]

  has them they work out their [TS]

  communications issues and they end up [TS]

  having each other's back and they ride [TS]

  off into the sunset on the horse [TS]

  literally so it's bonus points for that [TS]

  it's a surprisingly sweet story [TS]

  underneath the gratuitous you know men [TS]

  who have sex with sausages and angry god [TS]

  and while and backwards Nazis and and [TS]

  all of that so of course my favorite [TS]

  comic-book relationship is obviously [TS]

  commander and marionette in the [TS]

  Micronauts know it took us four now that [TS]

  I'm not a lot of love in the micro [TS]

  universe not yet that's not true that's [TS]

  not true [TS]

  Kroy and his girlfriend who can't who [TS]

  has is having his baby but can't be with [TS]

  him because he's banished from his [TS]

  people for betraying them even though he [TS]

  saves them bug and his girl oh there's [TS]

  lots of romance in my ovaries just too [TS]

  small to see budgets back in the Marvel [TS]

  Universe I guess back in the marvel [TS]

  universe because they own the rights to [TS]

  bug they just don't know it to most of [TS]

  the other characters so that will make [TS]

  things awkward because like I would tell [TS]

  you more about my friends behind that [TS]

  allowed taking them tell them but there [TS]

  any in obscure and circumscribed ways no [TS]

  i trade my turn maybe [TS]

  I'd like any pride is probably the the [TS]

  touchstone for me even though I always [TS]

  hated Colossus I always thought that was [TS]

  the that was that was the interpersonal [TS]

  kind of relationship that I that I [TS]

  definitely follow when I was a kid and [TS]

  big and hard and yes and that's why i [TS]

  hate him so much protected he watched [TS]

  out for her battle and and yes you have [TS]

  to rely on our special and all my guess [TS]

  he did [TS]

  oh I hated him so much and although [TS]

  although although the ultimate [TS]

  spider-man i think in terms of modern [TS]

  relationships I I Bendis one of the [TS]

  advantages of having that decompression [TS]

  and all that dialogue is that he [TS]

  actually got to build up some [TS]

  interesting interpersonal relationships [TS]

  in with between especially Peter and [TS]

  Mary Jane I'd agree with that yeah I [TS]

  would too [TS]

  I like brian michael bendis is a writer [TS]

  a lot yeah well i mean i was gonna I was [TS]

  gonna take the last few minutes to talk [TS]

  about what are you reading and I was [TS]

  going to bring up the new ultimate [TS]

  spider-man which as much as i railed [TS]

  against what they did to Peter Parker in [TS]

  the death of Spiderman arc with the [TS]

  obviously and painfully named death of [TS]

  Spiderman arc we're in which they big [TS]

  surprise kill spider-man in the new [TS]

  sorry Lisa I'm spoiling everything today [TS]

  in the new amazing spider or ultimate [TS]

  spider-man series it's great because [TS]

  it's all the good things about dentists [TS]

  except now the kid is not even younger [TS]

  he's got some different family dynamics [TS]

  but he too was bitten by a genetically [TS]

  altered Norman Osborn corporation spider [TS]

  and his powers are slightly different [TS]

  and he interacts with the ultimate sand [TS]

  and with Gwen Stacy at one point and [TS]

  basically gets read the riot act about [TS]

  if you're going to be spider-man you [TS]

  gotta understand that you're in his [TS]

  shadow and you gotta you gotta you know [TS]

  you gotta follow his example and all [TS]

  that and it's actually don't dishonor [TS]

  this it it's amazing how I again I don't [TS]

  like how they ended it because i felt [TS]

  like it was we're done with this let's [TS]

  just let's just wrap this up but the new [TS]

  series is great for all the reasons the [TS]

  old series was great which is really its [TS]

  Bendis and dealing with like kids trying [TS]

  to struggle with their their [TS]

  relationship to the world which is great [TS]

  material and so the Miles Morales the [TS]

  new spider-man is it's a pretty easy [TS]

  turning out to be a pretty good [TS]

  character and I think it was genius [TS]

  turning Peter Parker into Uncle Ben yeah [TS]

  oh no that's exactly it he's gotta live [TS]

  up because Peter Parker's whole [TS]

  watchword [TS]

  was with great power comes great [TS]

  responsibility and now now miles has to [TS]

  live up to Peter's example it's amazing [TS]

  so yeah they did a good job [TS]

  there's there's a chilling that what [TS]

  really got me on their side is there's a [TS]

  chilling a couple of issues where he has [TS]

  to interact with spider Ultimate Spider [TS]

  Woman with who is a female clone of [TS]

  Peter Parker so she has all the memories [TS]

  of Peter Parker up to about you know two [TS]

  years right in which four people on the [TS]

  listing who haven't read those ultimate [TS]

  spider-man things the jessica through [TS]

  yeah whoo and the ultimate universities [TS]

  as you said a female Peter Parker yeah [TS]

  that brings up so many interesting story [TS]

  things pretty well she's kissing Johnny [TS]

  store oh yeah and you know Anna and [TS]

  weird and Ben just deals with it yeah [TS]

  like so do you like really well done [TS]

  you like boys now and she's like I don't [TS]

  maybe but i also remember loving Mary [TS]

  Jane so I don't really know it's [TS]

  fascinating but she has to interact with [TS]

  miles and its really weird for both of [TS]

  them because peter is dead and he's now [TS]

  sort of spider-man and she's mad about [TS]

  that but it because she is sort of Peter [TS]

  which means she can also kind of be the [TS]

  representative of him to the new guy [TS]

  it's it's great i am so so Brian Bendis [TS]

  you know III he does really good work i [TS]

  gotta say I'm ivory every time he loses [TS]

  me he gets me back right i love the flip [TS]

  side o moon night the new series by [TS]

  business as I've read the first seven [TS]

  eight issues and that's when there were [TS]

  a couple of shit is that was bad i've [TS]

  been trying you know I've really trying [TS]

  because i like the moon I character and [TS]

  maybe I'm missing something I don't [TS]

  it's not resonating I don't get it [TS]

  there's nothing [TS]

  yeah interesting there tonight always [TS]

  seemed like a better idea than an [TS]

  execution yeah you should [TS]

  yeah because i read the whole big [TS]

  mansion built if its run and it was has [TS]

  none of that forced air and good that we [TS]

  should do it will sink its podcast would [TS]

  be cool if he dumped by my darling for [TS]

  middle that's a good idea i went back [TS]

  and read my new mutants [TS]

  why would that go visit my new mutants [TS]

  run recently and we'll think of its does [TS]

  a huge shark [TS]

  yeah and i remember reading it as a [TS]

  fourteen-year-old and just struggling to [TS]

  to understand the art and what am I [TS]

  seeing exactly know and it was pretty [TS]

  radical more [TS]

  lock was like we're straddling this [TS]

  abstract black with a pair blah [TS]

  yeah and easy against the 49ers I can [TS]

  really struggling to try to figure out [TS]

  the art and try to make sense of it and [TS]

  going back now and looking at its really [TS]

  striking to see how he's influenced a [TS]

  lot of visual conventions and in the [TS]

  interviewing years so you know we should [TS]

  we should definitely talk about how he's [TS]

  shaped storytelling or if you have to [TS]

  end if it was for the better or not [TS]

  that's a great idea anyway so I didn't [TS]

  know we're also just was gonna revisit [TS]

  watchman now that we've uh that's [TS]

  another podcast with now that they've [TS]

  announced that they're watch men [TS]

  prequels coming out there's Kennedy [TS]

  there's there's that there is too much [TS]

  better do some heard that I thought I [TS]

  watch him Saturday morning cartoon yes [TS]

  watching babies the other i wanted to [TS]

  mention a few of the other things i'm [TS]

  reading and then and then you guys [TS]

  should say if there are things that you [TS]

  are reading and rereading i just read [TS]

  the first issue of Winter Soldier which [TS]

  is Ed Brubaker doing a non going series [TS]

  about Bucky who is the winter soldier [TS]

  and he's you know from the pages of [TS]

  Captain America and I feel like I'll off [TS]

  I'm gonna follow Brubaker it because I [TS]

  loved what he did with that character [TS]

  and that whole story arc where he has to [TS]

  be deprogrammed from being a Soviet [TS]

  assassin and then he has to be captain [TS]

  america when Captain America is dead and [TS]

  now he is trying to sort of like faked [TS]

  his own death and he and the Black Widow [TS]

  are doing secret missions and Brubaker's [TS]

  such a good writer and I love what he's [TS]

  done with Captain America that's like [TS]

  I'm on the train for winter soldier [TS]

  that's that's such a great new Karen new [TS]

  Marvel character not new but yet new I'm [TS]

  and I'm i like the first issue of that [TS]

  so i'm reading that red POC is doing [TS]

  astonishing x-men now and I've left i've [TS]

  liked the first two issues that he's [TS]

  done because it's essentially read I [TS]

  don't know if he's going to stick with [TS]

  this but it's essentially remaking [TS]

  exiles which I liked which was the [TS]

  author your file alternate universe [TS]

  x-men where they just plot plot [TS]

  characters from vary from alternate [TS]

  different parallel universes yeah it was [TS]

  really sort of like this is that [TS]

  leiter's that old TVs right saddle with [TS]

  the x-men but with your memory [TS]

  over or very soon be like spot aspergers [TS]

  spider-man 2099 the interest is lots and [TS]

  lots of this crazy like mix-and-match [TS]

  well well astonishing what park is doing [TS]

  is he has like a storm i think it comes [TS]

  to Cyclops and says I need your help and [TS]

  she's got her Mohawk instead of her [TS]

  current hair or do and he goes with her [TS]

  and it turns out that that's not his [TS]

  storm and she's she's basically plucked [TS]

  him because they keep stealing x-men [TS]

  from other universes in order to to this [TS]

  horrible like dystopian universe where [TS]

  they're using them as power sources and [TS]

  then there's like an alternate Wolverine [TS]

  there and they break out of the jail and [TS]

  it's it's it's cool because it i really [TS]

  loved exiles I thought that was a great [TS]

  crazy idea to show to make all these [TS]

  various alternate characters team up and [TS]

  that's what great park is doing with [TS]

  astonishing so i'm i'm kinda on board [TS]

  for that I don't know whether that's [TS]

  going to be the premise of the title at [TS]

  all or whether it's just a story arc but [TS]

  I'm liking it so that's what I talked me [TS]

  into it that's what i'm reading now and [TS]

  i read a book called fenman which is a [TS]

  comic book biography of the physicist [TS]

  Richard Feynman women who might drink [TS]

  Jim ottaviani and leland myrick are [TS]

  going to my amazon lists are the are the [TS]

  writer and artist [TS]

  fine then I guess Richard find that the [TS]

  who worked on the Manhattan Project and [TS]

  famously led the Challenger [TS]

  investigation board after the special [TS]

  challenger incident and it was pretty [TS]

  cool that was my wife got at the library [TS]

  and brought it home for me and biography [TS]

  as comic book and it uses his words from [TS]

  his lectures and his writing to form a [TS]

  story of his life in comic form and it's [TS]

  a it's pretty cool so that's another [TS]

  that's what i'm reading Jason what are [TS]

  you reading [TS]

  hi as so right now I'm reading a lot of [TS]

  the new kirby verse titles that dynamite [TS]

  is publishing so these are Jack Kirby's [TS]

  later creations the ones that he kept [TS]

  yes Silverstar capital victory bombast [TS]

  there's a whole series of they were [TS]

  published by tops in the late nineties [TS]

  or the early nineties he died in the [TS]

  mid-nineties and then things like the [TS]

  the galaxy hunters are [TS]

  at Marvel had published a series just [TS]

  recently on these Kirby claytor Kirby [TS]

  creation so dynamite has them all right [TS]

  now and they've put them together in one [TS]

  universe it's written by Mark way to [TS]

  definitely knows you see it was me away [TS]

  yeah we've done resident here a really [TS]

  good writer yeah I think about a lot of [TS]

  kirby creations is there fairly insane [TS]

  and out there and just on bass tara lynn [TS]

  and so much energy and you take all of [TS]

  them and put them into one look and act [TS]

  and even it's like you feeling every [TS]

  issue they're introducing another 36 [TS]

  characters your and concepts and like [TS]

  ancient Mayan gods and base that's [TS]

  people are gonna go there reading city [TS]

  go all the way then there's like a [TS]

  couple of human characters who are in [TS]

  the midst of all this and trying to [TS]

  puzzle it out you're just like whoa [TS]

  where are they going to go next and it's [TS]

  just high energy Alex Ross is doing the [TS]

  the covers and some of the layouts and [TS]

  Mark great weight is writing it so its [TS]

  high-quality stuff just a million insane [TS]

  ideas so it's just basically this whole [TS]

  untapped Kirby sandbox and tryna crazy [TS]

  character designs and try to actually [TS]

  make it i hope coherent doesn't seem [TS]

  cold here right now but they're only [TS]

  like three or four issues in and [TS]

  everyone i get there is another 36 [TS]

  characters and concepts kind of [TS]

  introducing like whoa where's the [TS]

  struggling notes [TS]

  yeah it may have been a huge disaster [TS]

  but if it is it's going to be a [TS]

  brilliant beautiful mess of a disaster [TS]

  cool that's cool Lisa what are you [TS]

  reading [TS]

  I've been doing a lot of ketchup because [TS]

  this is actually the downside to [TS]

  switching to trade format and away from [TS]

  the flimsies yes I apologize again for [TS]

  spoiling invincible no it's okay is some [TS]

  it takes so long between compilation [TS]

  sometimes that in order to really [TS]

  appreciate what's the new 1i usually [TS]

  have to go back one or two books just to [TS]

  get a good head of steam the ipad [TS]

  somehow putting on the cutting edge on [TS]

  how to happen when i get my iPad i'm [TS]

  probably back to single digits the [TS]

  storage since the issue that's that's [TS]

  not the bugbear for me anyway I'm I [TS]

  recently caught up on scalp which is the [TS]

  Ryan you are that's taking place in an [TS]

  indication Aaron yes whom i love i think [TS]

  is right is great [TS]

  my only complaint is how he's handling [TS]

  the main romantic relationship because [TS]

  well he's not but some otherwise they're [TS]

  the tension between tribal culture [TS]

  obligation versus the surrounding an [TS]

  encroaching Anglo culture and the [TS]

  question of where your loyalties lie and [TS]

  whose laws are you ultimately bound to [TS]

  follow [TS]

  he's done a great job of exploring those [TS]

  tensions and seeing you know it's a huge [TS]

  gap and seeing how people fall in that [TS]

  gap and how they managed to climb out of [TS]

  it [TS]

  it's made for a really good series so [TS]

  far I think they're up to six or seven [TS]

  trades on my brother i sent him the [TS]

  first five with a note saying you have [TS]

  to read these and so I don't have those [TS]

  to lend out anymore but I've been [TS]

  following up [TS]

  um I caught up on fables and i think i'm [TS]

  out after after the most recent I'm [TS]

  still way back in fables it really it [TS]

  didn't go as I love it yeah I'm the [TS]

  future is bleak a kick it sounds to me [TS]

  as somebody who hasn't read more than a [TS]

  few issues that there was a really [TS]

  logical kind of endpoint yes there is [TS]

  and then it's not going well i think yet [TS]

  they vanquished the adversary and it [TS]

  could have gotten very interesting after [TS]

  that because obviously this huge power [TS]

  golf word that we're just not used to a [TS]

  decimal used to be but it didn't and you [TS]

  have all these here and you know these [TS]

  fairy tale people who are like okay I [TS]

  can go back to my land and take it over [TS]

  again and you have people who now lives [TS]

  in Atlanta Palestine problem yeah it [TS]

  basically is it basically is and given [TS]

  that the red are used Israel as a [TS]

  metaphor for how people should solve war [TS]

  oh yeah huge fan of Israel it comes out [TS]

  his work where we're off [TS]

  Israel is wow yeah yeah huge fan of [TS]

  Israel big basically says we're going to [TS]

  work enough act like the Israelis do and [TS]

  this is how we're going to win the war [TS]

  and that's how they do because this is a [TS]

  fantasy and but where it's gotten to now [TS]

  it's there there's all sorts of magical [TS]

  who do and and the witches are planning [TS]

  different coos and now one main [TS]

  character has become the paladin of the [TS]

  avatar of Hope which just sounds like [TS]

  like the kind of BS you'd find in a [TS]

  really bad gene roddenberry Syfy series [TS]

  yeah ouch like i said i'm out i read the [TS]

  most recent i read the most recent [TS]

  story arc and I thought this is hogwash [TS]

  you again you have other options [TS]

  yeah this is good what is it about their [TS]

  i'm still reading on written which is [TS]

  getting increasingly more complex all i [TS]

  gotta catch up with that [TS]

  yeah I really invited out yeah I'm as [TS]

  mentioned on previous podcast I'm still [TS]

  really i'm still unwritten and I've been [TS]

  scribbling down recommendations the [TS]

  whole time we've been talking so i [TS]

  imagine the next time I come back I'm [TS]

  gonna be like everything jason frasor [TS]

  when talking about my inventory so i've [TS]

  been reading chew on your recommend yeah [TS]

  oh yeah I'm she's been kind of fun i [TS]

  read the first issue and because it with [TS]

  all the hype of two and read the first [TS]

  issue and wasn't it's not for the weak [TS]

  of somebody engage it's not for the weak [TS]

  of some I'm just fascinated by how weird [TS]

  a premise it is and and the first one [TS]

  issue wasn't great but I bought I bought [TS]

  the first trade i think it's a digital [TS]

  trade my brothers and my brothers a [TS]

  mighty fine five so yeah I think I'll [TS]

  try the trade my brother sends me the [TS]

  trades and it's another one where I you [TS]

  kind of have to get used to the artwork [TS]

  because it's definitely a ascetic [TS]

  departure from the from the typical [TS]

  types and flight style but it's a really [TS]

  fun and at the risk of making it sound [TS]

  like I'm eighteen people should get off [TS]

  my lawn [TS]

  it feels really young compared to a lot [TS]

  of the stuff that's in the Marvel and DC [TS]

  vs it's not it's a superpower story but [TS]

  told really non traditionally it [TS]

  actually in some ways to remind me of [TS]

  the top ten love top to wear it's a [TS]

  where it's like police [TS]

  yeah yeah except that's a very [TS]

  traditional intentionally traditional [TS]

  story and she was like similar in that [TS]

  it sort of super law enforcement but [TS]

  really non-traditional which is what [TS]

  terrible superpower to have it is not [TS]

  just some edit then they say that you [TS]

  know eating things in order to tell what [TS]

  happened with the thing you ate is just [TS]

  it's awful but it's hilarious so yeah [TS]

  because it's not like you're restricted [TS]

  just food no no it's crazy it's crazy [TS]

  alright so yeah it's just and I did some [TS]

  reading like I said the new mutants i [TS]

  recently went through and reread I [TS]

  should do that sometime I ready to do i [TS]

  reread 1602 video game in which I like a [TS]

  lot i never read that serious oh it's [TS]

  good stick with that don't read the [TS]

  sequel it's good no I read the sequel [TS]

  and it was [TS]

  pretty sorry but 16 1602 is very good [TS]

  reward you for having a lot of Marvel [TS]

  and knowledge it's like my it's like [TS]

  neil gaiman love letter to the Marvel [TS]

  Universe put in this hilarious context [TS]

  of the traditional hydration and it is [TS]

  it is very well done and it's [TS]

  self-contained it's beautiful and I'm [TS]

  not gonna just wonderful but there are [TS]

  some plot twists in it that are [TS]

  fantastic as well as some fake out plot [TS]

  twists that are very amusing so i highly [TS]

  recommend it is great it's neil gaiman [TS]

  playing with those Marvel characters in [TS]

  a very constrained style you read the [TS]

  you know read the hardcover read the [TS]

  trade and that's the story and that's [TS]

  all you have is really respectful the [TS]

  history of the characters of that being [TS]

  overly differential yeah nice yeah i [TS]

  think it sounds great i'm gonna go home [TS]

  and read that that's it's a it's a good [TS]

  one so i reread that the other the other [TS]

  night and had a blast with ya all right [TS]

  I think we've done enough damage for one [TS]

  comma club but we will be back we are [TS]

  going to do an episode of the [TS]

  incomparable pretty soon about watchmen [TS]

  we're going to talk about the classic [TS]

  comic and what it means to us we [TS]

  probably won't beat the movie too much [TS]

  because that would be a whole other [TS]

  podcast where we beat the movie to death [TS]

  and we'll talk about the sequel's or the [TS]

  prequels or whatever DC is doing next [TS]

  watchman they watch the baby's coming [TS]

  come and worship work baby roshan baby [TS]

  night out who knows what they could be [TS]

  doing but until then I want to thank my [TS]

  fellow members of the comic book club [TS]

  jason reitman thanks for being here [TS]

  thanks for sharing the love and Lisa [TS]

  Schmeisser thank you for being here [TS]

  it was a delight to have you until next [TS]

  time on the incomparable podcast on [TS]

  Jason's no thanks for listening [TS]

  [Music] [TS]

  [Music] [TS]