86: Like "Catcher in the Rye," Except Crappier
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in conquerable podcast number a desserts
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april twenty well
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we are back on the incomparable podcast
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I'm your host Jason scale and it is time
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to open another edition of our
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incomparable book club
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today's topic is magic and books about
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magical things specifically we've got
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two books that we're going to talk about
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that we're magic and magician ship
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features heavily and then we will
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probably have a little bit of time to
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branch out and talk about some other
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stuff to joining me on the incomparable
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book club tonight our Glenn fleischmann
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hello there to have you thank you for
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dan more'n Jason it's not magic it's an
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Scott McNulty hello hello good to have
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you here i'll always a pleasure
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do you remember these books i remembers
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ok excess Skylanders work Scott
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remembers words on a page i did read the
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village we look to you for title
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information and serenity Caldwell
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hello i am now speed reading reading
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through both these books because it has
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been so long since i read them
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simultaneously what everything yes
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simultaneous right hands you're flipping
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hmm well I have an iPhone an iPad I'm
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not gonna make the best use the space
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good good work good work alright so the
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two books were going to talk about it as
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our primary focus tonight are the Night
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Circus by Erin Morgenstern this is a
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book from 2011 it is actually started
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out its life as a national novel writing
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month novel which is very exciting and
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it has screech has gotten a lot of the
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claim and also the magicians by lev
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grossman which was published in 2009 and
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it also actually got some acclaim and he
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won an award for best up-and-coming
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writer from the hugo awards last year
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day and I'd a little-known fact actually
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left Grossman pen name of lex friedman I
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mean it's not true office this is not
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true although he is in our business he
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is the he is i believe the technology
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one of the technology reporters have a
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geek culture reporter if you have time
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magazine and a croton
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doing some reason about about the ipad
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came out and I i ended up reading the
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time magazine story about the ipad which
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was by lev grossman did he say was
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what I find strange about the ipad
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launch from web gross perspectives about
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halfway through the ipad entered a
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strange fantasy world
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Oh about halfway through the ipad got a
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ah alright so let's start with the
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magicians by let's review let's start
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we'll start there and I know that people
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have strong feelings about this novel
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but just to recap beyond the title which
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is the magician to Scott remembers
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correct yes k q haces God has fulfilled
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his behalf of his needs tonight right
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this is a book a kind of strange
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instructure I've heard it described by
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many people as being the foul-mouthed or
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dirty version of Harry Potter and that
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it is about a school for magic it's in
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the united states and not not in the UK
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it's just it's a school where people
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learn magical things except their foul
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mouth and and drink heavily and have sex
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with each other and other things that
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are not in harry potter it's it's the
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story of clinton who who lives in
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Brooklyn and is discovers there's this
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up by going by walking deeply back
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behind it like a garden inn in brooklyn
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and pushing through stuff stuff he ends
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up very very Narnia like very Lion the
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Witch and the Wardrobe like he ends up
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at this school brakebills which is the
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school for magicians and he takes some
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tests that are people peculiar and then
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he is enrolled in the school and time is
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out of sync and he meets people and
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there's a whole lot of school stuff and
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then there's a strange plot twist that
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leads to a whole other story about this
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strange magical world called Hillary so
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you know I um I know there are strong
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feelings about this novel so I'd like to
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I'd like to hear what you guys thought
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of it and let's start i'm not gonna
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start with Scott because maybe our
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discussions will remind him of things
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that happened in it
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shop some memories loose you can play
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along until then and start with that
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damn or and what what what are your
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thoughts were about the magician's you
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know a I think I think I talk to you
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really well I was well I was in the
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midst of it and found it you know rather
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lackluster to the point I think at that
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point I was about after two thirds of
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the way through and I think a lot of my
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problem with that is that the characters
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are so alienating and they're drawn in
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this very stereotypical talking about
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the book that reminded me the most of
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I'm trying to remember the name of it i
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think it was called the cheese monkeys
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by the chip kidd a4 chip kid yeah and so
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it's but it's got that same sort of
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that's about like a bunch of kids going
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to art school and so that's kind of what
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this reminded me of in a way is you've
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got all these kids who are really
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pretentious and I think that's what
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bothered me the most about it they're
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all kind of they're all kind of like
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layabouts and ne'er do wells to a
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certain extent especially Quentin the
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clicky sort of falls in with and not in
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the sense that they're all extremely
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wealthy or whatever but they're all you
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know they all do magic and so especially
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once they get out of out of brakebills
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and back into the real world
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I put quotes around that because they're
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like living in an apartment in Manhattan
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they don't have to work they have all
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the money they ever need is a magical
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right and so they spend all their time
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drinking and doing drugs and having sex
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and all that so um which is it's not
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terribly interesting because there's not
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really a plot going on at that point
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it's just these characters and
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unfortunately the characters again like
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they're not really like no they're not
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likeable I mean maybe alice is maybe
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like you never you never get insider say
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yeah but she's a mysterious other figure
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who maybe I think you feel sad for her
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more than anything yeah you know the
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other the other characters i mean we
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meet we meet these these characters and
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their older than a question and you get
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the sense that they're kind of already
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they've been corrupted by the school and
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their cynical and and kind of unfriendly
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and-and-and there and Quentin and Alice
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are sort of like promoted into their
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year and so they're the younger ones and
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they're more innocent and and so through
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them you end up seeing these other
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characters who are more the another kind
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of hedonistic and they're very cynical
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and they're not particularly like when
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they've already got a sort of already
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politics between them and their arse
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history that's ugly of people who've
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loved and hated each other and it's a
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good kind of the whole thing it falls
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into this sort of trap of of clichés in
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some way of you have these you know
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dissolute teenagers you think they're
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too cool for everything and like you
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have the the how everybody hates their
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parents right even like especially
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Quentin's parents that really struck me
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as his parents being really kind of an
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offensive and bland but he's somehow
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offended by that ineffectiveness but it
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struck me as not really having a
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well-defined reason or a you know like
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it just struck me as like a god it's an
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annoying teenager you know and and and
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maybe that's realistic but it sits at
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the same time just so boring to read is
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so dull harry potter went through that
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for an entire harry potter book and it
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was actually one of the more unpleasant
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things in here hotter series he spends
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the entire book being mad at everybody
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because he supposed to be sullen because
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he's a teenager and it's you know it may
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be realistic in one way but it just kind
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of sucks because it's just like you're a
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why do I fiction for a reason yeah so
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Dan what you said was you were
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despairing but I did you didn't pick up
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at the end then it
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this is sort of two books right it's
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kind of like two totally different plot
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yes well it's like yeah there's a
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there's a book at the beginning which is
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really boring school
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well it's cool Quentin as a kid and
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whatever I even the part of sort of
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beginning where they get to fillory this
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this magical universe even that feels
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kind of shoddy because Aaron it haha
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yeah it is unclear right like whether
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this is a pastiche on the sort of narnia
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and and traditional fantasies or whether
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it's a actual honest like Ernest fantasy
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story right I've got to say something
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about that because
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when reading this book all I could think
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of was this is a kid who wrote Narnia
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fanfiction in high school wrote like 250
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thousand words of it said well I
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obviously can't publish it because it's
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fanfiction let me sit on it a couple
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years and then a couple years later he
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comes up to it means like oh well maybe
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if I twerksum names around
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Hey look I've got a novel then it just
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so happens to be very clearly resemble i
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think yeah I think that was it felt like
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parody a community parents so earnest so
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it's no it's not understand i mean
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there's enough of a critique in there I
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feel like that he's trying to that I
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don't think it's particularly well
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executed critique but it's clearly
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ripping off but it's yeah it's so it's
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so heavy-handed it is very heavy-handed
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number an ember thing where it's like
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and then at the end they come and they
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always take the chat when children away
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and they have to go back to the world
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seems so unfair and I'm like that is
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someone reading rd and said why can't
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the kids stay there you know it's just
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yeah doesn't add to its just like this
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complaint yeah I the the illusions are
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so heavy though like you know they talk
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about you know I think the older girl at
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some of the older chat when you're at
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some point and of course anybody who's
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read Narnia you know thanks immediately
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a Susan who is the one you know the one
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kid who is sort of at a later point just
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decide she's she's she's never coming
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back to Narnia guess she's just got the
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joints right ages out and which is one
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thing that many people are critical of
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in Lewis's work but i think that I grew
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Jason that this is this is intended more
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as Christie core a critique or pastiche
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or something like that
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I don't know if I'd go so far as to say
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it's parody because it doesn't quite
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work that way and it's not funny enough
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to be parody to me and not very
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necessarily to be funny but like well
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it's not it's not a parody of not sharp
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enough there is a pair of harry potter
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it does feel like if you take harry
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potter and narnia what what what really
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is happening here is he's he's trying to
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make some kind of commentary right while
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telling a story about that sort of like
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the the how clean some of these family
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beloved fantasy stories are versus sort
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of the dirtiness of reality and real
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people and real life and I feel that the
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school seems very strongly
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and in the scenes in the second half in
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fillory you know I feel like he's making
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some comments on on this idea of the
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children I mean you talk about the
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children visiting and IMF and the
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changes in time and all of that he is
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sort of making a comment about that
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especially given the fact that spoiler
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the the the bad guy ends up being one of
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the children who is bad because he
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doesn't want to leave and I but the but
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he doesn't he doesn't commit to it my
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problem is that it's not just the novel
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changes halfway through its that he
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doesn't commit to being either parody or
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critique and he's and that's what it
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feels like pastiche because it's a
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washing machine yeah he borrows
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everything he can I mean the fact that
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needed brakebills like that could be
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funny if he was really trying to
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Hogwarts parody but he doesn't it's he
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borrow it's like it's like oh I'm gonna
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make a little joke here and there an
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occasion i'm going to make a joke about
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Narnia or or harry potter i don't think
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it's a parody it's commentary it is
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saying this is unrealistic to expect
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people to behave the way they do in
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Harry Potter this is how they would
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behave but who wants to read a book
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about that well that may be but well I
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mean I and I think you could do that
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well I just not sure that this was done
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well my thing is that he steals the
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framework so he tries to eat he makes
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them in jokes he makes the reference and
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then it's like okay well not describe
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something works just like Harry Potter
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you know it works just like whores
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describing workers everyone's read
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Narnia so I'm just gonna go into the
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other thing ignore the fact that i
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created something I bring up all these
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things are always in jokes and create
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different names for everything and
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sometimes wink and nudge about Narnia or
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harry potter and then he moves on and
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you know we're talking about just those
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two there so many elements like brought
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in from every other book and movie you
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know there's bright lights big city in
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the New York seen practically there's
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there's a it's just I feel like it i
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think best each is the right word
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because I feel like they're 50 different
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bits and pieces of fantasy novels and
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magic novels and movies i mean i've felt
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like it was a terrible movie with your
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sensual a terrible movie with nicolas
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cage where sorcerer's apprentice right
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which I saw national richer conair yeah
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so has rich and famous sorcerers
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apprentice had the same field to me
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where they're like they're trying to
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reference stuff and they're sort of
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being funny and the sort of making no
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sense and it doesn't stand alone it's
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like Oh electricity allows us to perform
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magic except we say spells except
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there's there's a perfect part that
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explains this book for me which is early
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on they're doing some lecture and one of
[TS]
◼
►
the professor says we don't know
[TS]
◼
►
anything about the orange of origin of
[TS]
◼
►
magic and he makes the it's Turtles all
[TS]
◼
►
the way down story and it goes on about
[TS]
◼
►
the turtles all the way down reference
[TS]
◼
►
to hammer on the point that we don't
[TS]
◼
►
because harry potter it's obviously a
[TS]
◼
►
peep of his and the Harry Potter books
[TS]
◼
►
they don't really look at where magic
[TS]
◼
►
comes from comes from they just study it
[TS]
◼
►
like empirical of scientists used to
[TS]
◼
►
without setting the basis of you know
[TS]
◼
►
reality or whatever and I feel like the
[TS]
◼
►
same things come up here is you know it
[TS]
◼
►
brings these things up because there is
[TS]
◼
►
pet peeves he gets rid of them and then
[TS]
◼
►
moves on just like you know you work
[TS]
◼
►
through the harry potter thing whether
[TS]
◼
►
should have been sex and drugs and
[TS]
◼
►
violence and weird stuff at Hogwarts
[TS]
◼
►
while we've done that now we're going to
[TS]
◼
►
go into the narnia world and there
[TS]
◼
►
should have been you know this and that
[TS]
◼
►
and strange gods and so forth and then
[TS]
◼
►
he does not i wanted to interject that I
[TS]
◼
►
thought they were the the scene there's
[TS]
◼
►
one scene that really stands out for me
[TS]
◼
►
in the first half of the book which is
[TS]
◼
►
the one point where if i'm sort of
[TS]
◼
►
like-- lazily like asian through it and
[TS]
◼
►
reading the one that made me sort of
[TS]
◼
►
setup is the scene the first scene with
[TS]
◼
►
the Beast weary antagonists and taxing
[TS]
◼
►
best which i think is one of the best
[TS]
◼
►
scenes yeah overall its original
[TS]
◼
►
slightly yeah it's an original scene
[TS]
◼
►
doesn't feel like anything else yeah
[TS]
◼
►
it's really scary especially that last
[TS]
◼
►
bit where it's like you have to go
[TS]
◼
►
through the whole thing and it's kind of
[TS]
◼
►
terrifying your kind of frozen and then
[TS]
◼
►
again like they're like oh and nobody
[TS]
◼
►
even noticed that this like student
[TS]
◼
►
totally died and you're just like wait
[TS]
◼
►
but they never really be kind of cheats
[TS]
◼
►
his way out of it never really goes you
[TS]
◼
►
know back to that aspect of it right it
[TS]
◼
►
gets put on hold so long but I was like
[TS]
◼
►
maybe he just forgot it will never come
[TS]
◼
►
up again but it did it got it does it
[TS]
◼
►
does and I and I mean and I think that
[TS]
◼
►
that's the part that's where the story
[TS]
◼
►
starts to come around to me is towards
[TS]
◼
►
the end I think it really took as far as
[TS]
◼
►
they get into sort of this tomb right
[TS]
◼
►
and I get up to the you know they find
[TS]
◼
►
amber and they start interrogating him
[TS]
◼
►
and you kind of realize that this is all
[TS]
◼
►
a sort of a ploy and then they have to
[TS]
◼
►
like them they're you know they're in
[TS]
◼
►
there in deep crap right and they have
[TS]
◼
►
to sort of get there
[TS]
◼
►
out of it and it doesn't go well and
[TS]
◼
►
that's the part where I started like
[TS]
◼
►
okay I I kind of like that there's
[TS]
◼
►
something at stake here and that things
[TS]
◼
►
go really badly and that they have to
[TS]
◼
►
dig themselves out this huge hole and I
[TS]
◼
►
really sort of love the coda after that
[TS]
◼
►
with the questing beast remove that that
[TS]
◼
►
little short story in there where he
[TS]
◼
►
wakes up after this huge battle and he's
[TS]
◼
►
been asleep for like months are you know
[TS]
◼
►
and he's his hair is gone white and so
[TS]
◼
►
he's taking care of by all these
[TS]
◼
►
centaurs kind of pity them and then he
[TS]
◼
►
has to go off and search after this
[TS]
◼
►
thing I love that little bit you know
[TS]
◼
►
where that's a reference to by the way
[TS]
◼
►
the again everything is the best teacher
[TS]
◼
►
I like that part too very much i thought
[TS]
◼
►
that was that one of the best parts of
[TS]
◼
►
the book but the infernal desire
[TS]
◼
►
machines of dr. Hoffman by angela carter
[TS]
◼
►
with your friend gave me to read it's a
[TS]
◼
►
terrifying and hilarious book and
[TS]
◼
►
there's a bit with centaurs in it that
[TS]
◼
►
is exceedingly disturbing to any
[TS]
◼
►
rational mind and that scene in the book
[TS]
◼
►
with the Centaurs is clearly an homage
[TS]
◼
►
to it without being anywhere near as
[TS]
◼
►
disturbing as national Carter's book I
[TS]
◼
►
wanted to mention one other seen that I
[TS]
◼
►
that I liked in a book which is the
[TS]
◼
►
scene where at graduation they're all
[TS]
◼
►
taken down into know ya levels below
[TS]
◼
►
level level level and it's like outside
[TS]
◼
►
the magical protection area and they all
[TS]
◼
►
get tattoos that are essentially demons
[TS]
◼
►
being inserted into them to protect them
[TS]
◼
►
and it's this ritual and the Dean is
[TS]
◼
►
sort of like I'm ok I'm gonna let you
[TS]
◼
►
and now that you've graduated I'm gonna
[TS]
◼
►
let you in on some of the last secrets i
[TS]
◼
►
thought that was really evocative there
[TS]
◼
►
are a few scenes like that that you did
[TS]
◼
►
you like wow there are some elements of
[TS]
◼
►
a really good book that was not real you
[TS]
◼
►
know what the will the scene that stands
[TS]
◼
►
alone for me that was the best the
[TS]
◼
►
Antarctica seen I loved that scene I
[TS]
◼
►
thought the whole thing it was so gritty
[TS]
◼
►
it was so disconnected from the rest of
[TS]
◼
►
the book it was so it actually had I
[TS]
◼
►
would say compelling sex even though was
[TS]
◼
►
between foxes I thought that the other
[TS]
◼
►
sex is whole thing about being sex and
[TS]
◼
►
drugs and alcohol and the book isn't
[TS]
◼
►
very interesting throughout and I
[TS]
◼
►
thought that got more to sort of like
[TS]
◼
►
raw elemental stuff than anything else
[TS]
◼
►
in the book and it it's a fascinating
[TS]
◼
►
little snippet and when they get back to
[TS]
◼
►
brakebills I'm like ah that parts over
[TS]
◼
►
that part was actually really strong
[TS]
◼
►
well the part it takes them out of their
[TS]
◼
►
reality to serve
[TS]
◼
►
extending them out of the context and
[TS]
◼
►
also you're taking them out of their
[TS]
◼
►
board disaffected human minds and
[TS]
◼
►
putting them in animals and things like
[TS]
◼
►
that and like oh no you can't talk to
[TS]
◼
►
each other so you can't complain about
[TS]
◼
►
how bored you are i don't know it feels
[TS]
◼
►
like to create a quote from louis ck
[TS]
◼
►
here everything is awesome and nobody is
[TS]
◼
►
happy where it's like you were going to
[TS]
◼
►
a school for magic and you're still
[TS]
◼
►
gonna be all the time and yes
[TS]
◼
►
admittedly if he wants to make a you
[TS]
◼
►
know if if Grossman's idea is to make a
[TS]
◼
►
story about how magic really just causes
[TS]
◼
►
trouble and makes people unhappy you
[TS]
◼
►
know there are elements in there there's
[TS]
◼
►
like the parents seen we get to see what
[TS]
◼
►
else's parents who are just these people
[TS]
◼
►
who have oh yeah well you you take the
[TS]
◼
►
this is what disaffected people turn
[TS]
◼
►
into when they have all the power at
[TS]
◼
►
their hands and they just going into
[TS]
◼
►
themselves into crazy this book actually
[TS]
◼
►
kind of reminds me of Catcher in the Rye
[TS]
◼
►
except with magic and crappier and Carla
[TS]
◼
►
know we'll listen for a second because
[TS]
◼
►
like a lot of people this catcher in the
[TS]
◼
►
rye because of the you know disaffected
[TS]
◼
►
nature of the protagonist but i would
[TS]
◼
►
say the tone or at least a tone that
[TS]
◼
►
Grossman is trying to achieve i think is
[TS]
◼
►
similar to catcher in the rye his
[TS]
◼
►
catcher in the rye is a very affecting
[TS]
◼
►
book even though it's narrator is a bit
[TS]
◼
►
well that's why I'm not criticizing this
[TS]
◼
►
I'm saying that you know comparing this
[TS]
◼
►
to catch on the rise like you know
[TS]
◼
►
comparing the rock to you know the
[TS]
◼
►
tempest you know i got it will take
[TS]
◼
►
place on Islands you know I mean they
[TS]
◼
►
have similar themes not necessarily that
[TS]
◼
►
they're similar tears of literature
[TS]
◼
►
no yeah I'm gonna backups ready because
[TS]
◼
►
I thought that was the missing the the
[TS]
◼
►
structural problem for me was if you
[TS]
◼
►
want to explore what happens when you
[TS]
◼
►
have infinite aura now relatively
[TS]
◼
►
infinite power compared to other people
[TS]
◼
►
and what happens the corruption and
[TS]
◼
►
harry potter and despite someone
[TS]
◼
►
dimensionality of it throughout the the
[TS]
◼
►
conflict between having power and being
[TS]
◼
►
forced to restrain and the the
[TS]
◼
►
mechanisms in the Harry Potter universe
[TS]
◼
►
beat that even though sometimes we just
[TS]
◼
►
presented as parodies of British
[TS]
◼
►
bureaucracy there are checks and
[TS]
◼
►
balances you must do something useful
[TS]
◼
►
with yourself or sort of retire back
[TS]
◼
►
into the magical world you can't go out
[TS]
◼
►
and just sort of screw around in this
[TS]
◼
►
world the rules don't seem to apply and
[TS]
◼
►
more things aren't going awry and people
[TS]
◼
►
have different amounts of power and he
[TS]
◼
►
never explores the it's not a great
[TS]
◼
►
responsibility comes you know with great
[TS]
◼
►
power thing it's more like he doesn't
[TS]
◼
►
explore the ethical limits of having no
[TS]
◼
►
check someone's actions
[TS]
◼
►
it's just uh well we can do anything we
[TS]
◼
►
want so we're all going to collapse and
[TS]
◼
►
or become despite and so that whole last
[TS]
◼
►
seen right where he's he's after he's
[TS]
◼
►
escaped from Philadelphia she decides 30
[TS]
◼
►
yeah he decides to go work in this Fermi
[TS]
◼
►
doesn't really do anything he draws a
[TS]
◼
►
paycheck he sits around in his office
[TS]
◼
►
and plays video games all day is really
[TS]
◼
►
nice office that he's just sort of
[TS]
◼
►
convince people to give them and I mean
[TS]
◼
►
I don't know it you sort of sad it's
[TS]
◼
►
difficult thing and I think that you
[TS]
◼
►
know I think the ending of this book is
[TS]
◼
►
fairly contentious in some ways
[TS]
◼
►
especially the you know very end of it
[TS]
◼
►
where he essentially decides why the
[TS]
◼
►
I'll go back with all my friends to this
[TS]
◼
►
you know terrible face that we barely
[TS]
◼
►
escaped with our lives because at least
[TS]
◼
►
it's more exciting than what the hell
[TS]
◼
►
that makes no sense to me oh I thought
[TS]
◼
►
they had established some meaning that
[TS]
◼
►
they had meeting and resolve and that's
[TS]
◼
►
why he went with him as opposed to hey
[TS]
◼
►
let's go have fun it was like no these
[TS]
◼
►
were kick-ass people and figure out some
[TS]
◼
►
way to scrape some meeting and looking
[TS]
◼
►
at them he's like alright maybe there is
[TS]
◼
►
something to do I was gonna love it if
[TS]
◼
►
you know they had connected the
[TS]
◼
►
characters more but I feel like by the
[TS]
◼
►
end of the book maybe i just read it to
[TS]
◼
►
sleep by the end after he goes on the
[TS]
◼
►
questing beast thing
[TS]
◼
►
it kind of feels like oh I'm done with
[TS]
◼
►
this chapter in my life I'm closing off
[TS]
◼
►
I'm gonna go work in an office and be
[TS]
◼
►
completely you know just simply
[TS]
◼
►
dissolute about this i mean even meets
[TS]
◼
►
up with somebody who was a former which
[TS]
◼
►
is also working at this firm in doing
[TS]
◼
►
nothing and they have coffee and it's
[TS]
◼
►
and it's very much it feels like after
[TS]
◼
►
that scene after the you know the coffee
[TS]
◼
►
or the beer scene that he feels you know
[TS]
◼
►
completely uninterested about anything
[TS]
◼
►
in the magical world and then two scenes
[TS]
◼
►
later he's like yeah I'm gonna go to
[TS]
◼
►
fillory why not well but there is a nice
[TS]
◼
►
there is a nice train there because the
[TS]
◼
►
reason that you know the reason that
[TS]
◼
►
that woman is also there is that she
[TS]
◼
►
also sort of caused the death of someone
[TS]
◼
►
write that she was really close to in
[TS]
◼
►
the same way that when you put himself
[TS]
◼
►
in danger and had to be rescued by Alice
[TS]
◼
►
who essentially you know commited
[TS]
◼
►
suicide to save them and so they're sort
[TS]
◼
►
of the argument at the end there is if
[TS]
◼
►
they gave our lives for us
[TS]
◼
►
like you know what we better make our
[TS]
◼
►
lives worthwhile right I think that's
[TS]
◼
►
sort of the that is the thing that sort
[TS]
◼
►
of i think saves that upswing at the end
[TS]
◼
►
a little bit is not so much that you
[TS]
◼
►
oh I guess I have nothing better to do
[TS]
◼
►
than go back in this world is more of a
[TS]
◼
►
well if we don't do something then you
[TS]
◼
►
know that their deaths didn't mean
[TS]
◼
►
this is also a story that is about in it
[TS]
◼
►
if you had to say was about one thing I
[TS]
◼
►
would say it's it's about Narnia and
[TS]
◼
►
it's about the books and the concept so
[TS]
◼
►
even in the beginning you know he's
[TS]
◼
►
pushing through essentially the Wardrobe
[TS]
◼
►
to get brakebills he's obsessed with
[TS]
◼
►
these books they read as a kid they end
[TS]
◼
►
up going to this world because it turns
[TS]
◼
►
out to be real which I really enjoyed
[TS]
◼
►
that part that it that the fact that
[TS]
◼
►
hilary is real after all and at the end
[TS]
◼
►
you know it's a Narnia is a series and
[TS]
◼
►
and there's detail about the fillory
[TS]
◼
►
series 2 and they keep the kids keep
[TS]
◼
►
going back right so I felt like you had
[TS]
◼
►
to have them go back at the end because
[TS]
◼
►
that's what it's about is they go back
[TS]
◼
►
to the magic land they that you just
[TS]
◼
►
that's how these books work as they go
[TS]
◼
►
back to what I view that is at a
[TS]
◼
►
meta-level that to that don't of course
[TS]
◼
►
they have to go back
[TS]
◼
►
that's when it's not everybody gets to
[TS]
◼
►
go back right right
[TS]
◼
►
maybe they had that last scene 2 because
[TS]
◼
►
if he'll head and throwing himself
[TS]
◼
►
through that glass window and he
[TS]
◼
►
couldn't save Trinity only a minute yeah
[TS]
◼
►
it was very matrix at the end wasn't
[TS]
◼
►
that was like a scene from the matrix
[TS]
◼
►
but they need cinnamon that was that was
[TS]
◼
►
the ok and then to get this the option
[TS]
◼
►
i'd have this scene at the end so goes
[TS]
◼
►
the movie with but I sort of had another
[TS]
◼
►
kind of like that because it was it was
[TS]
◼
►
I thought it through off some of the
[TS]
◼
►
ennui it's like you know you know it's
[TS]
◼
►
they could have ended this sort of you
[TS]
◼
►
know at the end of one hour under you
[TS]
◼
►
like the end of Brazil you know he's
[TS]
◼
►
gone insane and and in these dead to the
[TS]
◼
►
world and we're still a dystopia it's
[TS]
◼
►
like now this guy goes alright I'm gonna
[TS]
◼
►
throw myself out the window and is I i
[TS]
◼
►
why am I here i'm gonna do that and I
[TS]
◼
►
yeah a good at least there wasn't
[TS]
◼
►
originally like an epilogue where it's
[TS]
◼
►
like you're the the bystanders walking
[TS]
◼
►
by see this guy plummet to his death
[TS]
◼
►
from not thank you
[TS]
◼
►
and I really want to pull the garbage
[TS]
◼
►
out for dinner someone cast a spell
[TS]
◼
►
silence over Scott McNulty we have to
[TS]
◼
►
release him from it yes got to remember
[TS]
◼
►
uh well to be fair I did read it three
[TS]
◼
►
so how didn't I tell you all that the
[TS]
◼
►
new button on you don't know I I was
[TS]
◼
►
just trying to recall any of these
[TS]
◼
►
details and all I remember about the
[TS]
◼
►
book was that the first part i
[TS]
◼
►
completely forgot they went to a magical
[TS]
◼
►
land and I remember the ending with the
[TS]
◼
►
exploding window so i really like the
[TS]
◼
►
entire moving it may be a good point
[TS]
◼
►
though that there really are these two
[TS]
◼
►
these two movements and you remember the
[TS]
◼
►
school stuff and there's this cool stuff
[TS]
◼
►
and then there's the magic land and when
[TS]
◼
►
I was talking to my wife afterward i
[TS]
◼
►
read this book and a and then I was
[TS]
◼
►
talking to her about this crazy book
[TS]
◼
►
that I read and I said you know as an
[TS]
◼
►
editor I look at this and think this
[TS]
◼
►
should have been two books
[TS]
◼
►
this should've been there would there
[TS]
◼
►
was it should have been cut into and
[TS]
◼
►
then both of them needed some work right
[TS]
◼
►
there should have been a book one that
[TS]
◼
►
was the magician's at school book one
[TS]
◼
►
would have been incredibly boring
[TS]
◼
►
well it needed a climax there was no
[TS]
◼
►
climax in that part of the book he
[TS]
◼
►
rushed through it too there's that one
[TS]
◼
►
point where he's like he's like oh wait
[TS]
◼
►
a minute 14 months just passed and we
[TS]
◼
►
don't know anybody how do we not make
[TS]
◼
►
any friends it was like there's a bit
[TS]
◼
►
when they say that like yeah how do we
[TS]
◼
►
not make any friends for the last year
[TS]
◼
►
and a half and you're like oh this is
[TS]
◼
►
that dream when you wake up and you
[TS]
◼
►
forgot to go to school for a year is
[TS]
◼
►
what it is so you you you know you you
[TS]
◼
►
can change the shape of a little bit too
[TS]
◼
►
but you have a little more of a climax
[TS]
◼
►
and whether that's the Antarctica stuff
[TS]
◼
►
or it's something else that climax with
[TS]
◼
►
them graduate more more quidditch I mean
[TS]
◼
►
Welters yes exactly
[TS]
◼
►
there could just run is a nap and I felt
[TS]
◼
►
like that would have been an interesting
[TS]
◼
►
book and then the second but it the
[TS]
◼
►
second half feels like a totally
[TS]
◼
►
different book which is hey you remember
[TS]
◼
►
all that fillory stuff it turns out that
[TS]
◼
►
it's real i will have an adventure there
[TS]
◼
►
he could have built more I if you
[TS]
◼
►
expanded the first part with school he
[TS]
◼
►
could have really interested in that
[TS]
◼
►
hole fillory thing a little more so it
[TS]
◼
►
would have been more shocking for the
[TS]
◼
►
second book like oh my god it really is
[TS]
◼
►
real but you do it now
[TS]
◼
►
now so that that's that and that struck
[TS]
◼
►
me about it that it just it felt like
[TS]
◼
►
of I think works better because it feels
[TS]
◼
►
like two unfinished books if it had been
[TS]
◼
►
split into and been more finished and I
[TS]
◼
►
think because there's a lot of good
[TS]
◼
►
stuff in here but it does feel like you
[TS]
◼
►
know and this happens with novels a lot
[TS]
◼
►
is you know you write a novel and it
[TS]
◼
►
people will either publish it or they
[TS]
◼
►
won't and it's not that off that common
[TS]
◼
►
that somebody will say I like it but it
[TS]
◼
►
needs a lot of work and you should
[TS]
◼
►
probably break it into and you should do
[TS]
◼
►
this and just do that now if you like
[TS]
◼
►
this is one of those cases where just
[TS]
◼
►
cried out for somebody to say left this
[TS]
◼
►
you're very talented we need to do some
[TS]
◼
►
work on it and it seems like that didn't
[TS]
◼
►
happen you know why would I wouldn't
[TS]
◼
►
compare this in terms of plot or or
[TS]
◼
►
scale but the on the series of wonderful
[TS]
◼
►
books the blue Mars rover him Stanley
[TS]
◼
►
Robinson yeah tread marks cream learning
[TS]
◼
►
more wonderful series of books and Mars
[TS]
◼
►
tomorrow one of the most appropriate
[TS]
◼
►
Mars blue Mars and Mars blue eyes what
[TS]
◼
►
do you see the the thing about that
[TS]
◼
►
books characters incredibly richly drawn
[TS]
◼
►
characters some of them start out
[TS]
◼
►
extremely disinfected and sullen or even
[TS]
◼
►
you're angry at them are there they kill
[TS]
◼
►
people or whatever enters and evolution
[TS]
◼
►
through the book whereby they live for
[TS]
◼
►
like 200 years so yeah that's a nice
[TS]
◼
►
little gimmick might explain why i could
[TS]
◼
►
never finish that book takes to twitter
[TS]
◼
►
year so it's a beautiful is a beautiful
[TS]
◼
►
serious reading maybe we'll do an
[TS]
◼
►
episode on it but the but I mean there's
[TS]
◼
►
the evolution of character you can have
[TS]
◼
►
disaffected characters like I thought
[TS]
◼
►
the turning point was going to be with
[TS]
◼
►
Quentin and Alice like you know they had
[TS]
◼
►
that they're both disaffected Alice had
[TS]
◼
►
reasons actually a deep dark secrets and
[TS]
◼
►
Gretchen was just sort of a you know
[TS]
◼
►
jerky Brooklyn k just didn't appreciate
[TS]
◼
►
what he had been their magic but after
[TS]
◼
►
Antarctica i thought was going to happen
[TS]
◼
►
is ok this is the crucible we've gone
[TS]
◼
►
through a lot they go through America
[TS]
◼
►
they both have learned more about each
[TS]
◼
►
other and themselves and they're the
[TS]
◼
►
only two and five years like the boxes
[TS]
◼
►
there some foxes and they do that death
[TS]
◼
►
marks that bit that one of the best
[TS]
◼
►
moments the book the funniest thing is
[TS]
◼
►
they come back upon the portal back to
[TS]
◼
►
brakebills from Antarctica everyone is
[TS]
◼
►
sitting around and they're like you two
[TS]
◼
►
are the only idiots who did that
[TS]
◼
►
optional voluntary death march to the
[TS]
◼
►
pole but that's what i thought that was
[TS]
◼
►
the crucible and then you're going to
[TS]
◼
►
have this different thing where resolve
[TS]
◼
►
and different and they realize
[TS]
◼
►
and now there's still the same kind of
[TS]
◼
►
party around kids that they were before
[TS]
◼
►
yeah would have been really nice to
[TS]
◼
►
actually see them get to the point where
[TS]
◼
►
oh yes we've embraced what we're doing
[TS]
◼
►
and we're really invested in it and then
[TS]
◼
►
you take it you go back to New York you
[TS]
◼
►
have the slow sort of degradation the
[TS]
◼
►
idea that oh yeah back now that you're
[TS]
◼
►
back in the real world everything is
[TS]
◼
►
sort of crunching on in on you and I
[TS]
◼
►
think actually he has a really
[TS]
◼
►
interesting motif throughout the book
[TS]
◼
►
with the sort of the real world versus
[TS]
◼
►
the magic world and going back to the
[TS]
◼
►
magic world i mean not only do you have
[TS]
◼
►
it sort of the main characters but you
[TS]
◼
►
have it with the main antagonist you
[TS]
◼
►
have it with Martin and then you also
[TS]
◼
►
have sort of a weird foreshadowing with
[TS]
◼
►
Quentin's original non-magic world
[TS]
◼
►
classmate Julia who gets in for like the
[TS]
◼
►
first two rounds of tests at brakebills
[TS]
◼
►
and then gets booted out and is
[TS]
◼
►
convinced that she's gone crazy
[TS]
◼
►
yes exactly because she remembers even
[TS]
◼
►
though they tried to wipe her memory
[TS]
◼
►
about it and so she just goes around and
[TS]
◼
►
like she wants to get back into that
[TS]
◼
►
world and she even assaults question at
[TS]
◼
►
one point being like yeah I'm gonna get
[TS]
◼
►
back and you know you if you contrast
[TS]
◼
►
that with the Martin Chatwin stuff like
[TS]
◼
►
there's there's the underpinnings of a
[TS]
◼
►
really interesting book about the
[TS]
◼
►
disillusionment of magic and what
[TS]
◼
►
happens when you try and go back to a
[TS]
◼
►
world that you can't quite fit into and
[TS]
◼
►
that like that could be really really
[TS]
◼
►
well paired with growing up and stuff
[TS]
◼
►
like that but instead it for me it just
[TS]
◼
►
feels like a bunch of dissolute pieces
[TS]
◼
►
that are kind of plopped down together
[TS]
◼
►
side-by-side and like if you try and
[TS]
◼
►
connect the dots you can sort of see the
[TS]
◼
►
narrative but I was really offended by
[TS]
◼
►
one thing in the book I mean really
[TS]
◼
►
quite so which is when Martin challans
[TS]
◼
►
sister a laser system judge is this is
[TS]
◼
►
genuine jane says you know you shouldn't
[TS]
◼
►
judge my bar my brother too harshly
[TS]
◼
►
plover the author of the fillory and you
[TS]
◼
►
know whatever books was doodling
[TS]
◼
►
everything God and I'm like oh come on
[TS]
◼
►
you throw that in this moment we
[TS]
◼
►
supposed to excuse somebody you know
[TS]
◼
►
it's like it's like saying well Paul
[TS]
◼
►
Pott you know his parents used to beat
[TS]
◼
►
him it's like yeah but you know I don't
[TS]
◼
►
this is that didn't bother me because I
[TS]
◼
►
didn't read that as being legitimately
[TS]
◼
►
excusing his behavior so much as
[TS]
◼
►
much as tearing apart the the author and
[TS]
◼
►
saying you know this author was actually
[TS]
◼
►
an awful human being but what'll I do
[TS]
◼
►
see ya there very gotta put the detailed
[TS]
◼
►
the same extraneous me and I I agreed
[TS]
◼
►
sort of it it made me you know raise an
[TS]
◼
►
eyebrow just like you couldn't resist
[TS]
◼
►
turning that into something but I mean
[TS]
◼
►
it didn't bother you a didn't bother me
[TS]
◼
►
from the same way as being an excuse so
[TS]
◼
►
much it just seems like a ok
[TS]
◼
►
why isn't there like yes I understand
[TS]
◼
►
your point that in the scene
[TS]
◼
►
I mean it's a lot of the explicit stuff
[TS]
◼
►
throws in is just seems like it's some
[TS]
◼
►
for shock value like there's an fairly
[TS]
◼
►
early on with Elliot right where we're
[TS]
◼
►
quite and stumbles across him involved
[TS]
◼
►
in some sort of you know homosexual
[TS]
◼
►
tryst or whatever and you know that
[TS]
◼
►
informs us to a certain extent about his
[TS]
◼
►
character but you know at the same time
[TS]
◼
►
it seems you know unnecessarily graphic
[TS]
◼
►
or just don't dare to try and shock
[TS]
◼
►
people right it could have been done
[TS]
◼
►
better there's a movie prick up your
[TS]
◼
►
ears about Jordan the playwright and
[TS]
◼
►
there's a bit where after he wins a big
[TS]
◼
►
award he goes into it you know
[TS]
◼
►
aloo in England and manner all over him
[TS]
◼
►
and it's like and that was sort of it
[TS]
◼
►
was a contrast and terrifying and useful
[TS]
◼
►
and exploration of the characters as
[TS]
◼
►
opposed to let's degrade this guy while
[TS]
◼
►
the guy peeps his head up and then no
[TS]
◼
►
okay now we know all about it let's go
[TS]
◼
►
and talk about it anymore
[TS]
◼
►
yeah just ties into the book as in
[TS]
◼
►
general where it feels like Grossman
[TS]
◼
►
kind of got carte blanc to do whatever
[TS]
◼
►
he wanted in this book and occasionally
[TS]
◼
►
he takes it too far and there wasn't
[TS]
◼
►
that you know it
[TS]
◼
►
no no offense to his editors but there's
[TS]
◼
►
I it feels like there wasn't that hand
[TS]
◼
►
being like love love what did you told
[TS]
◼
►
that back a little bit so I to if we if
[TS]
◼
►
we would sum up the reaction here it
[TS]
◼
►
sounds like there's a lot of interesting
[TS]
◼
►
stuff in this book but that it's really
[TS]
◼
►
got a lot of flaws
[TS]
◼
►
there's a lot to slog through to get to
[TS]
◼
►
the interesting huh yeah and it makes me
[TS]
◼
►
really mad to think about it i would
[TS]
◼
►
even weeks later and ready for a ready
[TS]
◼
►
for the magician's the Phantom edit and
[TS]
◼
►
i'm going to read that one huh well you
[TS]
◼
►
can tell the sequel magician kings which
[TS]
◼
►
is available in bookstores near he heard
[TS]
◼
►
that I heard that might make me angry i
[TS]
◼
►
retired some people say that they liked
[TS]
◼
►
it better and then other people said
[TS]
◼
►
that it raged them and they liked the
[TS]
◼
►
first one and the second one so i really
[TS]
◼
►
don't know what to think I i haven't
[TS]
◼
►
read it for that reason I will say
[TS]
◼
►
something for that which we haven't said
[TS]
◼
►
which is actually a pretty good writer
[TS]
◼
►
he is interesting i think his character
[TS]
◼
►
strong but you know I don't
[TS]
◼
►
the book that I'm not bored or just
[TS]
◼
►
irritated by this one actually maybe
[TS]
◼
►
sort of angry about it and I think of
[TS]
◼
►
opening a strong emotional reaction is
[TS]
◼
►
actually you know that makes it
[TS]
◼
►
worthwhile i don't like it i'm not sure
[TS]
◼
►
i'd recommend other people that I still
[TS]
◼
►
commend him for writing in a fashion
[TS]
◼
►
that actually enraged me instead of
[TS]
◼
►
bored me i liked it i mean i want you i
[TS]
◼
►
I think it's flawed but i enjoyed
[TS]
◼
►
reading it and I think it could could
[TS]
◼
►
have been better
[TS]
◼
►
absolutely but some of these scenes will
[TS]
◼
►
stick with me and I you know I i enjoyed
[TS]
◼
►
the ride and I didn't mind that the
[TS]
◼
►
characters were unlikable because that
[TS]
◼
►
was ok with me that they weren't they
[TS]
◼
►
weren't likable it's true that but I
[TS]
◼
►
don't know I i enjoyed it
[TS]
◼
►
I've read all those Narnia books I mean
[TS]
◼
►
I it's no sin for character to be
[TS]
◼
►
unlikable is my feeling it's a it's a
[TS]
◼
►
sin for them to be unlikable and
[TS]
◼
►
I mean I'm not saying that's necessarily
[TS]
◼
►
the case here but I think about you just
[TS]
◼
►
too and generally people people often
[TS]
◼
►
criticized you know like madmen for
[TS]
◼
►
having like characters they're full of
[TS]
◼
►
Michael people like yeah they're
[TS]
◼
►
unlikable that's true but they're
[TS]
◼
►
interesting in and so dislike them that
[TS]
◼
►
you don't like dislike them on the
[TS]
◼
►
screen but you can't stop watching them
[TS]
◼
►
with supporting cast in the magician's
[TS]
◼
►
is not strong supporting cast their eyes
[TS]
◼
►
yeah besides you know the sort of few
[TS]
◼
►
main characters i think there's there's
[TS]
◼
►
very few that stand out all the
[TS]
◼
►
professor's become interchangeable and I
[TS]
◼
►
think that's probably also a failed sort
[TS]
◼
►
of thrust harry potter am and I was
[TS]
◼
►
going to ask if anyone does anyone have
[TS]
◼
►
a favorite character or they all equally
[TS]
◼
►
unlikable because i have a favorite
[TS]
◼
►
character bicurious anyone else does
[TS]
◼
►
and I'm thinking oh yeah i would go with
[TS]
◼
►
a second i can't remember his name
[TS]
◼
►
because it was long in Russian but the
[TS]
◼
►
guy that Antarctica the guy never mind i
[TS]
◼
►
think i think he was the most
[TS]
◼
►
interesting he has very very little
[TS]
◼
►
dialogue but he was in compelling
[TS]
◼
►
character especially sort of filling his
[TS]
◼
►
backstory later and go ahead when I like
[TS]
◼
►
I like penny because parents would text
[TS]
◼
►
workable and crazy and turns out to find
[TS]
◼
►
the key the key plot element into sorta
[TS]
◼
►
he's easygoing as I went along nemesis
[TS]
◼
►
and yet he becomes actually vitally
[TS]
◼
►
important right but he he is kind of his
[TS]
◼
►
own plot like he's in a whole different
[TS]
◼
►
story and his whole don't think anybody
[TS]
◼
►
would be very interesting because at the
[TS]
◼
►
end of your weekend really badly
[TS]
◼
►
yeah and he's got fake hands and he
[TS]
◼
►
opens his hands he goes he reads books
[TS]
◼
►
for the rest of his life apparently it's
[TS]
◼
►
a totally different life than everyone
[TS]
◼
►
else in the book but but what I like
[TS]
◼
►
about that character is his interaction
[TS]
◼
►
with Quinn I mean basically there's a
[TS]
◼
►
there is a great scene where there
[TS]
◼
►
you've set this guy up as well i kind of
[TS]
◼
►
don't like him and but I'm sure I
[TS]
◼
►
whatever i'm not going to pay attention
[TS]
◼
►
to him and then penny kinda like walks
[TS]
◼
►
out of the school building and walks
[TS]
◼
►
right up to Quinton and places with the
[TS]
◼
►
notes and they get in a fight and I
[TS]
◼
►
liked that too that it's like we're over
[TS]
◼
►
at the Magic School and like I don't
[TS]
◼
►
like this guy will
[TS]
◼
►
well in harry potter it's like Oh mouth
[TS]
◼
►
boy you better watch out
[TS]
◼
►
and in this it's like no I'm gonna punch
[TS]
◼
►
you in the face and there's something
[TS]
◼
►
about that way with penny that he was
[TS]
◼
►
very direct very direct fellow i'm just
[TS]
◼
►
going to punish you now
[TS]
◼
►
yeah it's in your boys sense to me yeah
[TS]
◼
►
I don't know about that it was but it
[TS]
◼
►
was amusing you know don't enjoy it
[TS]
◼
►
enjoy it anyway he's in his own book
[TS]
◼
►
yeah he's reading for the pools in the
[TS]
◼
►
in the little place that's between the
[TS]
◼
►
ok let's move on to the Night Circus by
[TS]
◼
►
Erin Morgenstern I this is from last
[TS]
◼
►
this is like I said it's a national
[TS]
◼
►
novel writing month book originally she
[TS]
◼
►
didn't know what to do with your
[TS]
◼
►
characters so she sent them to the
[TS]
◼
►
circus and then aha
[TS]
◼
►
the circus might be an interesting
[TS]
◼
►
subject for a book so this is a you know
[TS]
◼
►
a story set in mostly in and around
[TS]
◼
►
London although not it's also in Europe
[TS]
◼
►
in the in the united states there to
[TS]
◼
►
time frames in it which is kind of
[TS]
◼
►
surprising and interesting arguably
[TS]
◼
►
three wedding and how yeah I suppose
[TS]
◼
►
that I suppose that's true
[TS]
◼
►
it's basically about these two people
[TS]
◼
►
Celia and marco who are chosen as
[TS]
◼
►
players in a game between two older
[TS]
◼
►
gentleman who are playing a long game
[TS]
◼
►
that we don't know the details of and
[TS]
◼
►
and Celia and marco are the players and
[TS]
◼
►
so they're sort of set against each
[TS]
◼
►
other and in a game that that you know
[TS]
◼
►
nobody knows the rules of and magic is
[TS]
◼
►
at the center of it and and and there's
[TS]
◼
►
a creation of a circus and there are
[TS]
◼
►
lots of circus people all of whom are
[TS]
◼
►
doing magical things and it's a it's
[TS]
◼
►
just a strange and I evocative and I
[TS]
◼
►
thought really charming charming book
[TS]
◼
►
and I I liked it a lot
[TS]
◼
►
so what do you guys think has anybody
[TS]
◼
►
ever watched the same way ever watch the
[TS]
◼
►
HBO show carnevale new episodes remind
[TS]
◼
►
you about a lot of the tone that that's
[TS]
◼
►
much darker and much more disturbed but
[TS]
◼
►
it also takes place at a traveling
[TS]
◼
►
carnival and also involves sort of a
[TS]
◼
►
that's more of a good and evil Battle
[TS]
◼
►
like but there is also an element of
[TS]
◼
►
magic well up to it but I mean it'sit's
[TS]
◼
►
distinct but the tone reminded me of a
[TS]
◼
►
lot and I like carnival a lot and I like
[TS]
◼
►
the night circus a lot as well it sort
[TS]
◼
►
of reminded me of that but set in a you
[TS]
◼
►
know Jonathan strange and mr normal
[TS]
◼
►
universe to allude to another
[TS]
◼
►
yeah right look right it's this
[TS]
◼
►
Victorian so you got the Victorian areas
[TS]
◼
►
it's like the late eighteen hundreds and
[TS]
◼
►
early nineteen hundreds and and so
[TS]
◼
►
you've got that tone which is really
[TS]
◼
►
nice you've got like English you know
[TS]
◼
►
big English kind of manner buildings and
[TS]
◼
►
rooms and things and then the circus
[TS]
◼
►
structure and the Traveling Circus and
[TS]
◼
►
there's there's magic and the magic
[TS]
◼
►
that's done is interesting and that
[TS]
◼
►
they're like kinds of magic and they're
[TS]
◼
►
they're very limited things that they
[TS]
◼
►
can do with the way that they make their
[TS]
◼
►
magic in this circus that they that they
[TS]
◼
►
build and then they have the different
[TS]
◼
►
talents of the the others that the
[TS]
◼
►
person who construct the the the clock
[TS]
◼
►
that's at the circus it's just it's a
[TS]
◼
►
mean there's a lot in there but it's and
[TS]
◼
►
at its core two are these two characters
[TS]
◼
►
who are on a collision course with one
[TS]
◼
►
another from the very beginning you know
[TS]
◼
►
in contrast with magicians the amount of
[TS]
◼
►
supporting characters in this book is
[TS]
◼
►
huge and I feel like almost every single
[TS]
◼
►
one of them is very well fleshed out
[TS]
◼
►
whether we get a point of view chapter
[TS]
◼
►
from them or not it's it's really
[TS]
◼
►
interesting the amount of sort of
[TS]
◼
►
different sub sections that we go into
[TS]
◼
►
inside the book because you get the
[TS]
◼
►
overarch the overarching story is
[TS]
◼
►
basically a love story disguised as a
[TS]
◼
►
competition which is fascinating but you
[TS]
◼
►
also have you have the undercurrent of
[TS]
◼
►
the person who basically puts on the
[TS]
◼
►
circus who is more or less unaware until
[TS]
◼
►
later on that he is basically being
[TS]
◼
►
played as part of a competition but you
[TS]
◼
►
have this whole section where he's
[TS]
◼
►
basically planning how to build the
[TS]
◼
►
circus and you get into his mind like a
[TS]
◼
►
producer even though you never even you
[TS]
◼
►
never get a point-of-view character for
[TS]
◼
►
this for this person you only get him
[TS]
◼
►
through the eyes of Marco who's
[TS]
◼
►
basically become his his assistant in
[TS]
◼
►
order to manipulate aspects of the
[TS]
◼
►
circus but his his whole track and the
[TS]
◼
►
track of the other sort of patrons of
[TS]
◼
►
the circus are that that track is
[TS]
◼
►
I thought it was a beautiful book and I
[TS]
◼
►
agree with run out of the characters
[TS]
◼
►
means even the minor ones are richly
[TS]
◼
►
fleshed out and it seemed both spare and
[TS]
◼
►
full of details so you could be part of
[TS]
◼
►
it was fasting that later that it was a
[TS]
◼
►
night circus is open at night and things
[TS]
◼
►
are either white or black often and read
[TS]
◼
►
was used as that theme to identify the
[TS]
◼
►
people are sort of became associated
[TS]
◼
►
with and traveled with to see the circus
[TS]
◼
►
but and the red is the color of one of
[TS]
◼
►
the twins hair is born at midnight when
[TS]
◼
►
the bonfires lived in the bonfire is
[TS]
◼
►
multicolored and there's just don't know
[TS]
◼
►
everything was it felt like it was full
[TS]
◼
►
of imagery and symbolism but without
[TS]
◼
►
anyone having to take upon a specific
[TS]
◼
►
heavy-handed being and even the fact
[TS]
◼
►
that i always liked books that involve
[TS]
◼
►
magic or even sometimes science fiction
[TS]
◼
►
where the issues are dispensed with
[TS]
◼
►
really fast so we don't actually really
[TS]
◼
►
care what the basis of magic is in this
[TS]
◼
►
book it's not discussed it sort of waved
[TS]
◼
►
away but it feels a realistic in the
[TS]
◼
►
sense that it's consistent and it arises
[TS]
◼
►
out of effort and will in a way that is
[TS]
◼
►
consistent among all the characters
[TS]
◼
►
involved throughout the book
[TS]
◼
►
and I like the the light touch their
[TS]
◼
►
let's treat it like a craft craft right
[TS]
◼
►
everything kind of makes sense in the
[TS]
◼
►
way that a certain things happen in the
[TS]
◼
►
plot and there's a lot of kids a lot of
[TS]
◼
►
books to read and you'd be like well why
[TS]
◼
►
didn't this thing do this at this point
[TS]
◼
►
you know I was thinking particular i
[TS]
◼
►
just finished this book earlier the
[TS]
◼
►
before the recording here so I'm
[TS]
◼
►
thinking in particular the ending where
[TS]
◼
►
you know sort of the circus has been
[TS]
◼
►
well as issues are worked out and are
[TS]
◼
►
one of our protagonist from the other
[TS]
◼
►
timeline a young young man was sort of
[TS]
◼
►
being chosen to be the next proprietor
[TS]
◼
►
he's sort of going around investigating
[TS]
◼
►
why everyone is sort of frozen in the
[TS]
◼
►
circus and there's one person who is
[TS]
◼
►
there to sort of breed him that the
[TS]
◼
►
contortionist and so so they can't
[TS]
◼
►
the question is why is she able to walk
[TS]
◼
►
around with nobody elses and you know
[TS]
◼
►
the answer is well she's sort of a
[TS]
◼
►
magician in her own right
[TS]
◼
►
it's not important that we know the
[TS]
◼
►
mechanics exactly haha she was immune to
[TS]
◼
►
their power is based on this message was
[TS]
◼
►
like oh she kinda knows magic
[TS]
◼
►
yeah it makes sense of it doesn't need
[TS]
◼
►
the detail and she was in the end it's
[TS]
◼
►
the balance of the love story there's so
[TS]
◼
►
many balanced forces of sort of love and
[TS]
◼
►
jealousy and loss and there are neatly
[TS]
◼
►
arranged so you're just like oh of
[TS]
◼
►
course she's the one she's the one that
[TS]
◼
►
was gradually revealed that she been a
[TS]
◼
►
competitor in a previous round of this
[TS]
◼
►
competition and so it makes sense and
[TS]
◼
►
the kid who is sort of brought us a
[TS]
◼
►
prior like his need for change in just
[TS]
◼
►
had the fact that he comes along is that
[TS]
◼
►
happenstance things happen in the book
[TS]
◼
►
for what seemed to be accidental reasons
[TS]
◼
►
but there's almost a purpose or fate
[TS]
◼
►
behind them and you just accept that
[TS]
◼
►
because it's part i mean the book is all
[TS]
◼
►
about everything being balanced and
[TS]
◼
►
whatever the balance goes off there's a
[TS]
◼
►
great scene you know relatively in the
[TS]
◼
►
book where the lover of Marcos lover
[TS]
◼
►
realizes that he never really loved her
[TS]
◼
►
and it over not a horrible way she
[TS]
◼
►
doesn't you know go totally nuts but she
[TS]
◼
►
had learned enough magic to keep both
[TS]
◼
►
Marco and his opponent in balance and
[TS]
◼
►
she unravels that and then the book
[TS]
◼
►
starts to wind up the clock starts to
[TS]
◼
►
spring start to pop out basically and
[TS]
◼
►
things start to happen sorry good better
[TS]
◼
►
for it and the flies all over the place
[TS]
◼
►
it made perfect sense it's like she was
[TS]
◼
►
so the linchpin is is various people are
[TS]
◼
►
in love and the clockmaker being in love
[TS]
◼
►
with don't forget her name with the with
[TS]
◼
►
Celia that's a that's a lovely bit
[TS]
◼
►
though the fact that clock maker who I
[TS]
◼
►
you know supposed to be slightly older I
[TS]
◼
►
guess and they have some kind of love
[TS]
◼
►
affair but it's not it's not as deep as
[TS]
◼
►
the one with Marco but she loves him in
[TS]
◼
►
a certain way and that doesn't become
[TS]
◼
►
this strange twisted thing it's just
[TS]
◼
►
part of all the mechanics of the of the
[TS]
◼
►
you can kind of get away with that in a
[TS]
◼
►
Victorian gettin awful
[TS]
◼
►
that's right yeah i think it's also
[TS]
◼
►
almost an intellectual of a fair mother
[TS]
◼
►
has any kind of physical thing because
[TS]
◼
►
he is you know he happens to be the
[TS]
◼
►
maker of the clock and then he also ends
[TS]
◼
►
up being basically the voice for the
[TS]
◼
►
circus to the general public who wants
[TS]
◼
►
to know more about it is the divorce fan
[TS]
◼
►
yeah 100 feet I'm your biggest and then
[TS]
◼
►
he's interviewing him he created his boy
[TS]
◼
►
he's killed in the clinic starts the
[TS]
◼
►
Clippers killed in the clock starts the
[TS]
◼
►
ok that is one of the that that is a
[TS]
◼
►
affecting scene 2 which is how it's
[TS]
◼
►
can I just say I love I mean she's for a
[TS]
◼
►
first-time rider she has a impeccable
[TS]
◼
►
control over the language in terms of
[TS]
◼
►
however loss places except for not such
[TS]
◼
►
a loser for what purpose places she's
[TS]
◼
►
continually gluing to set in dialogues
[TS]
◼
►
will continually good two sentences
[TS]
◼
►
together with a comma which is I think
[TS]
◼
►
done for painting but it drives me
[TS]
◼
►
well that she's a she's a beautiful
[TS]
◼
►
writer and and with the exception of her
[TS]
◼
►
comma splices which I I think you might
[TS]
◼
►
be able to forgive as a style choice he
[TS]
◼
►
received overly intention language so
[TS]
◼
►
that way there's no way and editors
[TS]
◼
►
gonna let that many of them go
[TS]
◼
►
it's like yeah you're doing comma
[TS]
◼
►
splices but really I got to talk to live
[TS]
◼
►
Grossman about his book to read
[TS]
◼
►
I don't get ready first-time novelists
[TS]
◼
►
who are very few with this beauty that
[TS]
◼
►
um what's the one who wrote the hundred
[TS]
◼
►
thousand kingdoms NK jemisin yeah
[TS]
◼
►
yes i returned to you for all the names
[TS]
◼
►
you always i mentioned how much I love
[TS]
◼
►
the book on Twitter and lisas
[TS]
◼
►
spangenberg who's an author and editor
[TS]
◼
►
she went with her friend she said that
[TS]
◼
►
the book was actually workshop not just
[TS]
◼
►
nanowrimo but on what's called aww is an
[TS]
◼
►
author's forum that people use and she
[TS]
◼
►
was apparently great participate in it
[TS]
◼
►
and listen to suggestions and is
[TS]
◼
►
incredibly generous with her time now
[TS]
◼
►
after the book is coming out so
[TS]
◼
►
interesting that it just it has that
[TS]
◼
►
sense of having been you know you think
[TS]
◼
►
it's someone's fourth book but the IMF
[TS]
◼
►
is the first she wrote you know
[TS]
◼
►
sometimes people have the first as we
[TS]
◼
►
all know first and second in the drawer
[TS]
◼
►
the third is the first one is published
[TS]
◼
►
but it does feel like a mature novelist
[TS]
◼
►
so I read a criticism of this book from
[TS]
◼
►
somebody just you know people on the
[TS]
◼
►
internet people who don't like this book
[TS]
◼
►
seemed to not like it because they say
[TS]
◼
►
well it's all just descriptions of
[TS]
◼
►
things and nothing much happens because
[TS]
◼
►
it was so much the scribing of items and
[TS]
◼
►
the colors and and details of things
[TS]
◼
►
like so basically can help this is what
[TS]
◼
►
I'll say is if if what you're looking
[TS]
◼
►
for out of a novel is a series of plot
[TS]
◼
►
if pot points and events
[TS]
◼
►
yes this book might disappoint you a
[TS]
◼
►
little bit because because a lot of the
[TS]
◼
►
a lot of it not all that there is a plot
[TS]
◼
►
there is there is a lot of flavor club
[TS]
◼
►
but there's a lot of like there's a lot
[TS]
◼
►
of describing of the scene and it's a
[TS]
◼
►
fantastical setting and instead of
[TS]
◼
►
suffice it to say it's a magic circus
[TS]
◼
►
now let's get down to the business of
[TS]
◼
►
the plot of the thing that didn't happen
[TS]
◼
►
what I like too much about it is is that
[TS]
◼
►
it's very atmospheric and it treats
[TS]
◼
►
magic as something that is special
[TS]
◼
►
yeah and and precious right so you so
[TS]
◼
►
many of these fantasy books read magic
[TS]
◼
►
is just part of you ever get out of this
[TS]
◼
►
magic there's magic guy who cares
[TS]
◼
►
it makes me i'm still a teenager and i'm
[TS]
◼
►
still a bit of an ass but I in this book
[TS]
◼
►
it's like it's magic it's it's magical
[TS]
◼
►
there's no other way to describe it it's
[TS]
◼
►
just like when I was as i was reading it
[TS]
◼
►
and I am known not to like an adult
[TS]
◼
►
fiction but I felt it made me feel like
[TS]
◼
►
a kid again reading a book which is a
[TS]
◼
►
great kind of feeling to have right yeah
[TS]
◼
►
that it's fantastical like that yes the
[TS]
◼
►
magic is special and when they do it's
[TS]
◼
►
weird and elemental and and sometimes
[TS]
◼
►
it's whimsical and sometimes it's scary
[TS]
◼
►
but it's never it's never pedestrian
[TS]
◼
►
it's never boring
[TS]
◼
►
it's only it's always hoggin all with
[TS]
◼
►
or something you know yeah the magic is
[TS]
◼
►
magical excited me a little bit of uh I
[TS]
◼
►
know a lot of people talk about the
[TS]
◼
►
prestige which is a a book and a movie
[TS]
◼
►
set in sort of Victorian England but the
[TS]
◼
►
one that reminds me a little bit more as
[TS]
◼
►
they came around the same time as a
[TS]
◼
►
movie called The Illusionist with a
[TS]
◼
►
normal which also has a beautiful it's a
[TS]
◼
►
extremely atmospheric movie I highly
[TS]
◼
►
recommended by the way it's out it's
[TS]
◼
►
actually very clear those movies are
[TS]
◼
►
under all those movies are good they're
[TS]
◼
►
very different as an illusionist yes is
[TS]
◼
►
reminds me more of this be its own the
[TS]
◼
►
illusionist is also more of a love story
[TS]
◼
►
first edition arguably you you know
[TS]
◼
►
there's something funny i was reading
[TS]
◼
►
the book and I couldn't put my finger on
[TS]
◼
►
what made it seem familiar and after a
[TS]
◼
►
while I realized it reminded me of
[TS]
◼
►
moby-dick which may sound ridiculous
[TS]
◼
►
this is the descriptions no prescription
[TS]
◼
►
is very well and and I really got me so
[TS]
◼
►
the it that richness is that people read
[TS]
◼
►
you know I'm sure we'll have to read it
[TS]
◼
►
in high school and i'm reading a high
[TS]
◼
►
school thing is the most boring thing
[TS]
◼
►
which everyone does then i read it as an
[TS]
◼
►
adult discovered Moby Dick is actually
[TS]
◼
►
hilarious if you're not reading it
[TS]
◼
►
tendentious Lee and analyzing everything
[TS]
◼
►
it's a hilarious book but it's also
[TS]
◼
►
every chapter and all the descriptions
[TS]
◼
►
of the obtaining of the spur bassetti
[TS]
◼
►
and all the rest of it it's it builds up
[TS]
◼
►
this incredibly rich picture building up
[TS]
◼
►
this inventory in the storehouse of your
[TS]
◼
►
mind into which then the story unfolds
[TS]
◼
►
and it's a you know weird literary
[TS]
◼
►
convention not to make away with that I
[TS]
◼
►
felt she did parts of that is she
[TS]
◼
►
interleaved the narrative so it wasn't
[TS]
◼
►
purely descriptive but there is a lot of
[TS]
◼
►
it that was building up this storehouse
[TS]
◼
►
the powder keg of all these forces
[TS]
◼
►
arrayed in a lot of detail and
[TS]
◼
►
background stories and then at the end
[TS]
◼
►
it's just explosion explosion explosion
[TS]
◼
►
explosion but you understood it all in
[TS]
◼
►
that bigger context she created i love
[TS]
◼
►
the moment in this book where r2 r2
[TS]
◼
►
participants finally really come
[TS]
◼
►
together which involves a torrential
[TS]
◼
►
downpour and a magic umbrella you stole
[TS]
◼
►
the scene right from my mouth that is
[TS]
◼
►
probably like oh it's beautiful is a
[TS]
◼
►
fantastic memorable scene and you know
[TS]
◼
►
there aren't that many bits of all right
[TS]
◼
►
it does a great job of ratcheting things
[TS]
◼
►
up without spelling everything out right
[TS]
◼
►
there's still some suspense at the end
[TS]
◼
►
of it they have now identified each
[TS]
◼
►
other but and he invites her fridge
[TS]
◼
►
drink right and then she goes maybe some
[TS]
◼
►
other time and then disappear that I was
[TS]
◼
►
a great if you could sort of it's not
[TS]
◼
►
you know the balance doesn't tip right
[TS]
◼
►
in one direction or the other it's sort
[TS]
◼
►
of not even if anything that's the scene
[TS]
◼
►
that the levels it and i think one of
[TS]
◼
►
the things I really liked about this in
[TS]
◼
►
some ways that I you know I realized i
[TS]
◼
►
found myself anticipating and seeing a
[TS]
◼
►
lot of the plots points coming but it's
[TS]
◼
►
not i think there's an amount of
[TS]
◼
►
predictability in certain books that is
[TS]
◼
►
not necessarily a bad thing and it's
[TS]
◼
►
kind of reassuring it's like putting a
[TS]
◼
►
puzzle together when you kind of know
[TS]
◼
►
what the picture is supposed to be so
[TS]
◼
►
there's a certain joy in revealing it as
[TS]
◼
►
you go in finding out how those pieces
[TS]
◼
►
together right so I i think that that
[TS]
◼
►
for me like I could see how some of
[TS]
◼
►
these things were progressing but
[TS]
◼
►
there's a satisfaction in in seeing it
[TS]
◼
►
come together the way that you expected
[TS]
◼
►
absolutely and to the description note i
[TS]
◼
►
would say that those individual tense
[TS]
◼
►
within the circus are so fantastical
[TS]
◼
►
that the description like I'm i am anti
[TS]
◼
►
Charles Dickens because of his excessive
[TS]
◼
►
description but that said like the the
[TS]
◼
►
description of each of the tents and how
[TS]
◼
►
they work and you know all this one is
[TS]
◼
►
is ice and this one is clouds this does
[TS]
◼
►
this reminds me there's a I'm san
[TS]
◼
►
Francisco has a has a night truck thing
[TS]
◼
►
that happens basically twice a year
[TS]
◼
►
three times a year Brooklyn has this as
[TS]
◼
►
well and I think it originated in
[TS]
◼
►
Brooklyn where it's just a bunch of
[TS]
◼
►
theater people rent boxcar trucks and
[TS]
◼
►
make fantastical elements within them
[TS]
◼
►
and i actually got to go to one of these
[TS]
◼
►
last year and like they're all cut like
[TS]
◼
►
I felt very similar reading this book
[TS]
◼
►
and like looking at the the various
[TS]
◼
►
tents to actually go to the get that
[TS]
◼
►
boxcar the evening market because the
[TS]
◼
►
the truck was like one of the trucks i
[TS]
◼
►
went to was a Brigadoon library only
[TS]
◼
►
appears once every hundred years or once
[TS]
◼
►
every yeah once every hundred years and
[TS]
◼
►
then there was one where they did items
[TS]
◼
►
in liquid nitrogen and then they just
[TS]
◼
►
smash them so it's like it's all that
[TS]
◼
►
you know the mix of the fantastical and
[TS]
◼
►
me and the Jermaine and I don't know it
[TS]
◼
►
was just having having had that
[TS]
◼
►
experience I think it made the novel
[TS]
◼
►
more interesting to me that one of the
[TS]
◼
►
multiple perspectives is is a great way
[TS]
◼
►
to get you to see the circus because we
[TS]
◼
►
have the you know the story of sort of
[TS]
◼
►
like you are entering the circus and and
[TS]
◼
►
you're seeing what's happening in the
[TS]
◼
►
circus from from this perspective that
[TS]
◼
►
sort of outside and you've got the story
[TS]
◼
►
of the kid who is dared by his sister to
[TS]
◼
►
break in to the circus when you're not
[TS]
◼
►
supposed to go there and he and he meets
[TS]
◼
►
a girl and she gives him something as
[TS]
◼
►
proof and then he leaves and you think
[TS]
◼
►
well that's an interesting little thing
[TS]
◼
►
but of course it's actually part of the
[TS]
◼
►
story and it's a different part of the
[TS]
◼
►
timeline so you are learning things that
[TS]
◼
►
you later on you you really started
[TS]
◼
►
flipping back and forth like okay when
[TS]
◼
►
you have you guys did that take place
[TS]
◼
►
ok hold on it and it sort of starts to
[TS]
◼
►
dovetail right like towards the ethical
[TS]
◼
►
look you look at the new music
[TS]
◼
►
it gives you dates you're like what
[TS]
◼
►
blood date whatever its 1908 its unity
[TS]
◼
►
through whatever and then you realize oh
[TS]
◼
►
Jesus the dates matter because this girl
[TS]
◼
►
that we met hasn't been born at well
[TS]
◼
►
isn't that clever how they I love the
[TS]
◼
►
bit about where maybe this happened
[TS]
◼
►
everyone knows about I don't know
[TS]
◼
►
quarter of the third of the way through
[TS]
◼
►
and so then I'm like these people are
[TS]
◼
►
too old but with with a minute and then
[TS]
◼
►
right when you realize that then she
[TS]
◼
►
starts to reveal and then it becomes a
[TS]
◼
►
thing and she sort of explains it but it
[TS]
◼
►
is it's in there if you look as I
[TS]
◼
►
noticed it fairly early on that they're
[TS]
◼
►
like you know we don't seem to be you
[TS]
◼
►
know getting any older her its it starts
[TS]
◼
►
to come in and you realize there's
[TS]
◼
►
something something very peculiar and
[TS]
◼
►
you have that terribly tragic scene
[TS]
◼
►
right with one of the twins
[TS]
◼
►
oh gosh yeah doesn't want to
[TS]
◼
►
we just can't handle you know everything
[TS]
◼
►
being so magical and mystical and ends
[TS]
◼
►
up you know more or less
[TS]
◼
►
well she doesn't commit suicide but
[TS]
◼
►
she's sort of drawn into sort of the i
[TS]
◼
►
entice to the later
[TS]
◼
►
yeah right by a train because you look
[TS]
◼
►
at the proprietor as well of the certain
[TS]
◼
►
that the provider but the person who
[TS]
◼
►
produced the circus yeah yeah yeahs and
[TS]
◼
►
watch him slowly go insane
[TS]
◼
►
it's it's kind of horrifying a little
[TS]
◼
►
all the background you have Prospero the
[TS]
◼
►
enchanter and the enter enigmatic mr.
[TS]
◼
►
and i love this mr. aah
[TS]
◼
►
chef Victoria also very Victorian oh I i
[TS]
◼
►
love that is so the separation and
[TS]
◼
►
Prospero is Caelius father who he and
[TS]
◼
►
she's delivered to him and he's like
[TS]
◼
►
yeah I guess she's one of mine he
[TS]
◼
►
realizes she's got magic energy is like
[TS]
◼
►
all right well that's good and uh
[TS]
◼
►
there's great stuff with him because you
[TS]
◼
►
know you could do this is a almost lost
[TS]
◼
►
kind of you know there's a abandoned
[TS]
◼
►
black man and white and they have a game
[TS]
◼
►
but goes on with the return but they're
[TS]
◼
►
both kind of dicks like if they're bet
[TS]
◼
►
it's exactly yeah it's you don't have
[TS]
◼
►
that here and then prosper also you're
[TS]
◼
►
like oh he's magic and and he's like
[TS]
◼
►
yeah but he kind of is trying to do
[TS]
◼
►
something to himself and he makes
[TS]
◼
►
everybody starts to disappear rules
[TS]
◼
►
that's the most beautiful thousand
[TS]
◼
►
beautiful intelligent market when Marco
[TS]
◼
►
asks like an amber necklace Ilya s Celia
[TS]
◼
►
says what happened to your father he
[TS]
◼
►
said well imagine what was the
[TS]
◼
►
description was if you take a glass of
[TS]
◼
►
wine and your crew and you remove the
[TS]
◼
►
glass if you did that in a bowl of water
[TS]
◼
►
it's one thing but if you do in the
[TS]
◼
►
ocean it's another well he tried for the
[TS]
◼
►
ocean equipment like oh wow yeah and so
[TS]
◼
►
he's he's he's kind of a ghost now and
[TS]
◼
►
then mr. a you know eh ok under in
[TS]
◼
►
yeah Alexandra generates not and the you
[TS]
◼
►
know and they have their game that
[TS]
◼
►
continues to go on and it's I i love
[TS]
◼
►
that and that again is a way where we're
[TS]
◼
►
that's a thing we've seen before and yet
[TS]
◼
►
it didn't feel like it kind of comes out
[TS]
◼
►
I mean in some ways it's it kind of ends
[TS]
◼
►
up being it's like nature versus nurture
[TS]
◼
►
right is essentially a kind of what
[TS]
◼
►
they're arguing right is that we hit you
[TS]
◼
►
know Alexander says I can pluck you know
[TS]
◼
►
someone out and more orphanage
[TS]
◼
►
yeah and teach him magic and he will be
[TS]
◼
►
able to beat someone who you you know
[TS]
◼
►
who is like naturally talented i could
[TS]
◼
►
pull this flower girl from in front of
[TS]
◼
►
this offer house and the teacher how to
[TS]
◼
►
speak with great elocutionist well as I
[TS]
◼
►
think it's interesting because Prospero
[TS]
◼
►
is basically arguing for magic as flash
[TS]
◼
►
to a certain extent basically using it
[TS]
◼
►
is really lush yeah we're at but the
[TS]
◼
►
entirety of the circus is in a way
[TS]
◼
►
magic is flash but with very different
[TS]
◼
►
contours based on whether it's sealed
[TS]
◼
►
his attraction or marcos attraction and
[TS]
◼
►
the beauty of this whole thing is that
[TS]
◼
►
you know as you see these two characters
[TS]
◼
►
collide and you realize that they're
[TS]
◼
►
going to fall in love and you're gonna
[TS]
◼
►
have that moment where where the old men
[TS]
◼
►
who are playing a little game we're
[TS]
◼
►
gonna be like no no no no no your
[TS]
◼
►
opponent's you can't no no no no and it
[TS]
◼
►
that's it that's enjoyable to see the
[TS]
◼
►
like know they're sorry guys we are in
[TS]
◼
►
love now you know that there is it seems
[TS]
◼
►
you know to me it was one of those again
[TS]
◼
►
one of those sort of predictable
[TS]
◼
►
elements that I saw coming but still you
[TS]
◼
►
know saver done the last was that whole
[TS]
◼
►
one of you has to die right here like in
[TS]
◼
►
order for this game to end like you can
[TS]
◼
►
in some ways I i was surprised that they
[TS]
◼
►
don't like that silly and Marco don't
[TS]
◼
►
put that together earlier but maybe
[TS]
◼
►
that's just because i'm reading reading
[TS]
◼
►
a book and I understand how books work
[TS]
◼
►
right well they're under the impression
[TS]
◼
►
that there's some sort of resolution me
[TS]
◼
►
a lot of this book involves them not
[TS]
◼
►
knowing the rules and trying to figure
[TS]
◼
►
out it is this a competition when does
[TS]
◼
►
it happen is you know but it ends up
[TS]
◼
►
being son of a collaboration and yeah
[TS]
◼
►
skirting around its any in a beautiful
[TS]
◼
►
way out you know sort of collaborating
[TS]
◼
►
on these wonders
[TS]
◼
►
ya know I i will say I really dug it a
[TS]
◼
►
book i liked it i did like the like the
[TS]
◼
►
hint that mr. aah
[TS]
◼
►
she is Merlin right like that sort of
[TS]
◼
►
yeah i also took that away at the end
[TS]
◼
►
there and yeah that was funny well it's
[TS]
◼
►
also mr. a and doing this a long time he
[TS]
◼
►
becomes less less and less offensive as
[TS]
◼
►
he gets more and more engaged in what's
[TS]
◼
►
going on so so prosper becomes a dick
[TS]
◼
►
and sort of fades away while mr. H
[TS]
◼
►
becomes increasingly human and finally
[TS]
◼
►
as like almost too much sympathy for it
[TS]
◼
►
it's a little unconvincing how much
[TS]
◼
►
sympathy he develops i would say it's
[TS]
◼
►
the only false know it's very very
[TS]
◼
►
slight but i like the character I like
[TS]
◼
►
that last conversation with him and we
[TS]
◼
►
guess it's a good it's a lovely little
[TS]
◼
►
scene there and he's still kind of a
[TS]
◼
►
jerk but you get the impression that
[TS]
◼
►
he's just he's become so disillusioned
[TS]
◼
►
no pun intended with the entire yeah you
[TS]
◼
►
know the entire history of magic yeah
[TS]
◼
►
I've been doing this looking for
[TS]
◼
►
something new it's yeah
[TS]
◼
►
mmhmm yeah it's great so everybody it
[TS]
◼
►
sounds like everybody has very positive
[TS]
◼
►
my-my thing about night circus is that i
[TS]
◼
►
would buy that and add it to my physical
[TS]
◼
►
book collection which is a phrase that I
[TS]
◼
►
do not give too many books nowadays
[TS]
◼
►
especially those workbooks so so I it's
[TS]
◼
►
funny that you should say that I have a
[TS]
◼
►
very limited number of things that i
[TS]
◼
►
recommend my wife is a librarian she
[TS]
◼
►
read lots of books shirts shoes and the
[TS]
◼
►
Children's Library Association reads a
[TS]
◼
►
lot of kids books so she can recommend
[TS]
◼
►
she has a limited willingness to go
[TS]
◼
►
along with crazy books that i recommend
[TS]
◼
►
so I try to I try to recommend her
[TS]
◼
►
really good stuff and and i absolutely
[TS]
◼
►
and unabashedly recommended this book
[TS]
◼
►
and said you got to read this book and
[TS]
◼
►
and and do it now and that so that's my
[TS]
◼
►
equivalent of your in your endorsement
[TS]
◼
►
if I might actually buy this book and
[TS]
◼
►
put it on the Shelf like I i actually
[TS]
◼
►
went to trouble my wife and say no this
[TS]
◼
►
one but of all these crazy books I read
[TS]
◼
►
you got to read this one I've been
[TS]
◼
►
telling everyone they should go and buy
[TS]
◼
►
and read this book because it's the most
[TS]
◼
►
I think it's one of the most beautiful
[TS]
◼
►
books i read in the last several years
[TS]
◼
►
wow it's very approach it's approachable
[TS]
◼
►
but it's in it's cuz you know he's got
[TS]
◼
►
my chicken it's like it's not over yet
[TS]
◼
►
is it requires you buy into a universe
[TS]
◼
►
dragon-like you just you can read here
[TS]
◼
►
be dragons yeah you can read it and
[TS]
◼
►
enjoy it without having to you know
[TS]
◼
►
learn foreign languages that are made up
[TS]
◼
►
by the author right for instance Scott I
[TS]
◼
►
thought it was i do agree i recommended
[TS]
◼
►
to my wife that she read it and uh huh
[TS]
◼
►
last night she was very tired so at ten
[TS]
◼
►
o'clock i said okay you should go to bed
[TS]
◼
►
i'm not tired so i will stay awake and
[TS]
◼
►
so she took her kindle into the bedroom
[TS]
◼
►
and lay down and an hour and a half
[TS]
◼
►
later I want past bedroom and the light
[TS]
◼
►
was on and she was reaching the night
[TS]
◼
►
circus and I said I thought you were
[TS]
◼
►
going to sleep and she was like oh but i
[TS]
◼
►
only have seven percent left so the book
[TS]
◼
►
at this reminded me of more than any
[TS]
◼
►
other we with the little time that we've
[TS]
◼
►
I thought we talked about other badgett
[TS]
◼
►
kind of things we want to bring up and I
[TS]
◼
►
want to bring up Jonathan strange Mr
[TS]
◼
►
Norrell which I think somebody mentioned
[TS]
◼
►
earlier by susanna Clark which is from
[TS]
◼
►
2004 also a period in England you know
[TS]
◼
►
19th century kind of story
[TS]
◼
►
it's it's stylistically like that to you
[TS]
◼
►
know very Charles Dickens or or or I
[TS]
◼
►
guess austin and and I love that book
[TS]
◼
►
its enormous ism looking
[TS]
◼
►
yeah it might be difficult for some
[TS]
◼
►
people to get into because of the
[TS]
◼
►
stylistic choices but i think it's a
[TS]
◼
►
yeah it's got a little bit it's a little
[TS]
◼
►
like The Magicians to in a sense that
[TS]
◼
►
there's a scary like it was like a fairy
[TS]
◼
►
realm that they go into but also
[TS]
◼
►
everybody in your game a little bit
[TS]
◼
►
it's like it's basically like a history
[TS]
◼
►
book of things that never happened
[TS]
◼
►
yelling but it's also got strange whimsy
[TS]
◼
►
and it like the fact dollar there are
[TS]
◼
►
magicians but they're not actually
[TS]
◼
►
majority just suddenly ragic historians
[TS]
◼
►
how would anyone ever do magic well as
[TS]
◼
►
if there's a way there's a weird sort of
[TS]
◼
►
like there's a weird sort of different
[TS]
◼
►
drugs at the foot know what was there a
[TS]
◼
►
lot of footnotes but there's a narrator
[TS]
◼
►
right there is a narrator who is not any
[TS]
◼
►
of the characters know and who only
[TS]
◼
►
occasionally just pops up and said yeah
[TS]
◼
►
splits or whatever in this book and
[TS]
◼
►
you're like who is this huh
[TS]
◼
►
but like in kind of it kind of a
[TS]
◼
►
delightful way that never really i mean
[TS]
◼
►
it's never really explained or
[TS]
◼
►
acknowledge I thought it was one of the
[TS]
◼
►
guys I said that actually is one of the
[TS]
◼
►
characters in the book is the narrator
[TS]
◼
►
Holly I all again i read it like like
[TS]
◼
►
Scott I don't know at all really long
[TS]
◼
►
time ago but I just I like that it's not
[TS]
◼
►
it is it seems kind of separate and
[TS]
◼
►
ancillary well like the footnotes yeah
[TS]
◼
►
this is one of those you know a thousand
[TS]
◼
►
page novel that I put out put a word in
[TS]
◼
►
for a shorter novel the i recently read
[TS]
◼
►
which I know scott also read I which is
[TS]
◼
►
my kohls control point which is a
[TS]
◼
►
interesting sort of modern urban fantasy
[TS]
◼
►
you might classify classified as but it
[TS]
◼
►
a lot of it is sort of military fantasy
[TS]
◼
►
because it basically involves a world
[TS]
◼
►
where people manifest magical powers and
[TS]
◼
►
the government sort of has put a
[TS]
◼
►
lockdown on this and so few manifest in
[TS]
◼
►
one of these prohibited schools of magic
[TS]
◼
►
you're essentially you know basically
[TS]
◼
►
imprisoned by the army and so the the
[TS]
◼
►
main character who is himself to sort of
[TS]
◼
►
a normal run-of-the-mill army soldier
[TS]
◼
►
manifest in one of these schools and has
[TS]
◼
►
to decide whether he's going to
[TS]
◼
►
basically go on the run from everything
[TS]
◼
►
that he used to know and a surprisingly
[TS]
◼
►
good book i had the pleasure of meeting
[TS]
◼
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Mike a conference here to put in my
[TS]
◼
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Glenn moment and he's a super nice guy
[TS]
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and a really really interesting fellow
[TS]
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who's currently living in a terrible
[TS]
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apartment so that he can eke out a
[TS]
◼
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living as a writer but he's also way
[TS]
◼
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he's a military guy and so he has you
[TS]
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►
know he writes this from an
[TS]
◼
►
authoritative perspective but it's in
[TS]
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►
surprisingly engaging and finance so i
[TS]
◼
►
would definitely recommend it so I I saw
[TS]
◼
►
something about this book and and but
[TS]
◼
►
the thing that's weird about it is it's
[TS]
◼
►
called channel control yeah well they
[TS]
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►
call ended up as a it's definitely a
[TS]
◼
►
series it's just the way the way it's
[TS]
◼
►
marketed in the way they invented it
[TS]
◼
►
feels like a video game spin-off or
[TS]
◼
►
something which is what I was like it
[TS]
◼
►
was it feels like a franchise type thing
[TS]
◼
►
and it's and I think that's unfortunate
[TS]
◼
►
in fact I was just looking at the he
[TS]
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just put up on Twitter now and so they
[TS]
◼
►
just put it by the British the UK cover
[TS]
◼
►
for the book which i think is immensely
[TS]
◼
►
better than the Americans probably would
[TS]
◼
►
look and we didn't say it was supposed
[TS]
◼
►
to have another day because it
[TS]
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►
I made him change whether i said you
[TS]
◼
►
know i was talking to Dan on twitter
[TS]
◼
►
about this and I said yeah the book is
[TS]
◼
►
much better than the cover and title
[TS]
◼
►
would you lead you to believe and the
[TS]
◼
►
author said yeah the type that wasn't
[TS]
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►
supposed to be the title is supposed to
[TS]
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►
be a oh my goodness related some ladies
[TS]
◼
►
was the name that he wanted to Layton
[TS]
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►
right and instead it's generally not a
[TS]
◼
►
waffle constraint right so I mean
[TS]
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►
they're clearly selling to a particular
[TS]
◼
►
audience i think is the issue but i also
[TS]
◼
►
think that the British the British cover
[TS]
◼
►
looks a lot more serious and I think
[TS]
◼
►
they drop drop the shadow ops part for
[TS]
◼
►
that it's just called control point I'm
[TS]
◼
►
which I still think is even better title
[TS]
◼
►
than shadow puppets control point but he
[TS]
◼
►
your regardless of the cover and the and
[TS]
◼
►
the and the marketing I i think it's a
[TS]
◼
►
worthwhile read pretty good
[TS]
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►
alright any other magical uh books that
[TS]
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►
you want to bring up with our remaining
[TS]
◼
►
time I don't give a quick shout out to
[TS]
◼
►
Joe Walton in general I just finished
[TS]
◼
►
reading among others a couple of moval
[TS]
◼
►
which was beautiful and very well SH so
[TS]
◼
►
Welsh rate very very adorable
[TS]
◼
►
that's we mentioned it before it's the
[TS]
◼
►
fantasy it's a fantasy book it is about
[TS]
◼
►
magic but it's also a but what it's
[TS]
◼
►
about as science fiction so it's like a
[TS]
◼
►
fantasy book about science fiction and
[TS]
◼
►
there it but there is magic in it and
[TS]
◼
►
she read sci-fi novels and yeah so lots
[TS]
◼
►
of scifi own now modely obsessed with go
[TS]
◼
►
Walton so I watched a an hour-long
[TS]
◼
►
interview with her and the interviewer
[TS]
◼
►
asked her did you watch it through like
[TS]
◼
►
a one-day hockey it wasn't really an
[TS]
◼
►
interview I was just stalking her for an
[TS]
◼
►
hour and she's so the interview after
[TS]
◼
►
all you're gonna write a sequel to among
[TS]
◼
►
others and Joe Walton said I she first
[TS]
◼
►
explain her writing process where she
[TS]
◼
►
gets contracted to write a book she
[TS]
◼
►
starts writing it and she gets bored
[TS]
◼
►
with it write another book and says
[TS]
◼
►
here's the book I wrote not the one you
[TS]
◼
►
contract before which i think is great i
[TS]
◼
►
think also not uncommon for many credits
[TS]
◼
►
so she said what i could write a sequel
[TS]
◼
►
to it but the only story I want to tell
[TS]
◼
►
is about when the main character ends up
[TS]
◼
►
on the moon and that's a 35 years from
[TS]
◼
►
now and in order to write that book i
[TS]
◼
►
would have to create all the science
[TS]
◼
►
fiction novels that she read over those
[TS]
◼
►
35 years so I'm just not going to do it
[TS]
◼
►
alright well i have had a magical time
[TS]
◼
►
discussing this with all of you as
[TS]
◼
►
yeah yeah no that wasn't good so so to
[TS]
◼
►
wrap up the magicians by lev grossman
[TS]
◼
►
kinda got some interesting things in it
[TS]
◼
►
but sounds like that the consensus is
[TS]
◼
►
pretty flawed and problematic
[TS]
◼
►
yeah yeah yeahs submissions it has
[TS]
◼
►
issued a wheel the Night Circus by Erin
[TS]
◼
►
Morgenstern I everybody seems to love it
[TS]
◼
►
up it isn't going on my shelf once i
[TS]
◼
►
have shelves to put things apart right
[TS]
◼
►
bad as a ringing endorsement and just
[TS]
◼
►
the other stuff among others Jonathan
[TS]
◼
►
strange and mr. Durrell and shadow ops
[TS]
◼
►
contratto ops control point
[TS]
◼
►
alright so we're going to close up the
[TS]
◼
►
the incomparable club for now I don't
[TS]
◼
►
know what our next book selection is
[TS]
◼
►
going to be although the hugo nominees
[TS]
◼
►
should be coming out shortly
[TS]
◼
►
they're not out as you listen to this
[TS]
◼
►
podcast so perhaps we will target some
[TS]
◼
►
of those next I went so well last year
[TS]
◼
►
that will do it yeah well you know maybe
[TS]
◼
►
that that's equal to feed dominated by
[TS]
◼
►
God it can be anything worse than I will
[TS]
◼
►
be there higher from this podcast if
[TS]
◼
►
thats nomination ah so I've Jason I'm
[TS]
◼
►
I'll step up all read them all I
[TS]
◼
►
something to read except every feedlot
[TS]
◼
►
yeah well you were your smartermail
[TS]
◼
►
reading you will be dilated are all
[TS]
◼
►
asterisk at hand
[TS]
◼
►
it's all acceptable but so so if you're
[TS]
◼
►
a a an incomparable book club devote a
[TS]
◼
►
what I would say is watch our Twitter
[TS]
◼
►
feed or sign up for our Goodreads group
[TS]
◼
►
and we will notify you through those
[TS]
◼
►
mechanisms about what our next book club
[TS]
◼
►
selection will be yes and it in the in
[TS]
◼
►
the meantime read a Jonathan strange mr.
[TS]
◼
►
Durrell or shadow ops control point or
[TS]
◼
►
among up you can get Jonathan strange
[TS]
◼
►
look at that and it's like a thousand
[TS]
◼
►
patients the because your page of that
[TS]
◼
►
deal is midnight blowing unbelievable
[TS]
◼
►
but I'm tapping amazon now i'm topping
[TS]
◼
►
amazon right now we are where we sell
[TS]
◼
►
some copies of Jonathan strange & Mr
[TS]
◼
►
Norrell race true what does it take me
[TS]
◼
►
to get you into this novel Dan because
[TS]
◼
►
what are you gonna take you to throw in
[TS]
◼
►
a spare tire mileage level your test
[TS]
◼
►
throw in some plots that's what huh oh
[TS]
◼
►
one click for me i'm done the test drive
[TS]
◼
►
is the sample the kindle sample
[TS]
◼
►
literally wrote some plots extra and
[TS]
◼
►
some formats right given NY minimized
[TS]
◼
►
and how about some footnotes
[TS]
◼
►
oh all the footnotes in Jonathan strange
[TS]
◼
►
mr. oh come from if you have been like
[TS]
◼
►
if she knows that would draw you really
[TS]
◼
►
drive you a little bit nuts
[TS]
◼
►
yeah do we fade slowly after a fortune
[TS]
◼
►
without realizing it
[TS]
◼
►
no no I'm I'm I'm position to say
[TS]
◼
►
goodbye actually so until then whenever
[TS]
◼
►
that time is when we reconvene the
[TS]
◼
►
incomparable club i would like to thank
[TS]
◼
►
my book club participants for again a
[TS]
◼
►
delightful and magical time
[TS]
◼
►
serenity called well thank you very much
[TS]
◼
►
for joining us from your floating carpet
[TS]
◼
►
high above Los Angeles where you are
[TS]
◼
►
currently living with your magical cat
[TS]
◼
►
thank you and hopefully i will magically
[TS]
◼
►
be in boston the next time we have a
[TS]
◼
►
book club podcast that's not use magic
[TS]
◼
►
because that would be a lot faster than
[TS]
◼
►
yes that's how i'm getting there in two
[TS]
◼
►
days but excellent
[TS]
◼
►
I Glenn fleischmann from his uh his
[TS]
◼
►
bunker in Seattle but right in the back
[TS]
◼
►
there's a door that goes to fillory
[TS]
◼
►
thank you for being here thank you for a
[TS]
◼
►
thousand feet blue the surface of the
[TS]
◼
►
earth I thank you for not letting me in
[TS]
◼
►
this episode watch out for the love of
[TS]
◼
►
men knew Dan more'n i insert magic thing
[TS]
◼
►
thanks for being my you always always
[TS]
◼
►
run out inspiration when it gets to me
[TS]
◼
►
just really if I the door to fillory and
[TS]
◼
►
my in the back of my room I would break
[TS]
◼
►
it over the Beast would come and destroy
[TS]
◼
►
your pens so that's the bricks or flow i
[TS]
◼
►
see a magic trick supply
[TS]
◼
►
yeah why would you use non-magic bricks
[TS]
◼
►
oh why would you get a job and earn
[TS]
◼
►
money when you can just make all your
[TS]
◼
►
money with magic breaks and Scott
[TS]
◼
►
McNulty I thank you for being here
[TS]
◼
►
although you had pharma too much disk
[TS]
◼
►
action and not enough plot that is often
[TS]
◼
►
commenters on amazon.com agree with you
[TS]
◼
►
yes also you had many show air-quote
[TS]
◼
►
jogo stations and I couldn't and there
[TS]
◼
►
was a lot of silence for me I provide
[TS]
◼
►
the love silence so yes thank you thank
[TS]
◼
►
you for providing both your silence and
[TS]
◼
►
your insight about the parts of the
[TS]
◼
►
books that you could remember you know I
[TS]
◼
►
read a lot of things people i know i
[TS]
◼
►
think i can't remember them all
[TS]
◼
►
you wouldn't want to that's why your
[TS]
◼
►
book amnesia save you
[TS]
◼
►
you're saying like it perhaps have a
[TS]
◼
►
curse of some kind of when i went to
[TS]
◼
►
fillory be magic that yes magic real
[TS]
◼
►
magic magic is to blame for everything
[TS]
◼
►
this is scott is that Scott is actually
[TS]
◼
►
an enchanted book to type but I'm an
[TS]
◼
►
enchanted e-reader that's who know your
[TS]
◼
►
initiated book but you've been you're
[TS]
◼
►
Oh captured on me we're humans trapped
[TS]
◼
►
in a body that even exactly that is it
[TS]
◼
►
alright closing up the uncomfortable
[TS]
◼
►
club then I'm Jason smell your host
[TS]
◼
►
until next time on the income
[TS]
◼
►
well thanks for listening
[TS]
◼
►
this is probably the first new book in a
[TS]
◼
►
while that I would consider actually
[TS]
◼
►
buying physically and putting it on my
[TS]
◼
►
shelf of which is very limited right now
[TS]
◼
►
since yeah basically homeless person
[TS]
◼
►
basically a homeless and living out of
[TS]
◼
►
boxes we prefer the term hobo you know
[TS]
◼
►
you know glad it's it's funny you should
[TS]
◼
►
mention moby dick because was a Herman
[TS]
◼
►
Melville's great-granddaughter was my
[TS]
◼
►
English should know i'm just gonna know
[TS]
◼
►
you're out where you got allowed by
[TS]
◼
►
listen listen there's no puedo go ahead
[TS]
◼
►
moby dick you say except for her comma
[TS]
◼
►
splices that drives me not such a loser
[TS]
◼
►
for what misplaces she's continually
[TS]
◼
►
gluing to set in dialogues will
[TS]
◼
►
continually grew two sentences together
[TS]
◼
►
what's the reasoning hummus places
[TS]
◼
►
misplaces yeah I don't know what that is
[TS]
◼
►
this officer talking almost like the
[TS]
◼
►
size you're a writer kinda shit no
[TS]
◼
►
splices it's when it's when you insert a
[TS]
◼
►
comma when you should have a scenario
[TS]
◼
►
you're seeing talking about like baba
[TS]
◼
►
ghanoush uses from recycling is famous
[TS]
◼
►
places where there is actually that's
[TS]
◼
►
one of the lens travel presents at the
[TS]
◼
►
isn't even on this place and not because
[TS]
◼
►
it is black comedies white on this it's
[TS]