The Incomparable

87: Where Do the Dragons Go to the Bathroom?


  the incomparable podcast number 87 april [TS]

  twenty well [TS]

  welcome back to the incomparable podcast [TS]

  and this week we have a theme we're [TS]

  going to be talking about dragons [TS]

  because you know dragons are common [TS]

  feature of fantasy literature and you [TS]

  find them in science fiction to they [TS]

  seem to be this month MacGuffin but it's [TS]

  this common thread that no matter what [TS]

  else you find a fat fantasy world can be [TS]

  dragons or gonna be disappointed and the [TS]

  dragons are often wise or evil or [TS]

  all-powerful but they seem to be a key [TS]

  element that that uh travels through so [TS]

  many different fantasy novels and it's a [TS]

  long history as well so we thought of [TS]

  Lisa Schmeisser my co-hosts assemble [TS]

  elisa I Lisa and I were talking after a [TS]

  McCaffrey died who is the author of the [TS]

  dragonriders of Pern series of novels on [TS]

  how effective it was for her and I [TS]

  didn't read that series and a little bit [TS]

  of it long ago but it got us talking [TS]

  about the fact that dragged into this [TS]

  common theme we like to talk about big [TS]

  issues on the cobbles so we thought we [TS]

  would we would talk dragons there be [TS]

  dragons this episode so we brought in [TS]

  some other dragon slayers as well [TS]

  Torrey Smith welcomed or e2 incomparable [TS]

  hello what hello and Sarah Barbara hello [TS]

  were heading to having major fuckup [TS]

  thanks for coming on so we're going to [TS]

  talk about big themes and specifics to [TS]

  because there's so much to talk about [TS]

  with dragons and Lisa you wish before [TS]

  the podcast Lisa you're saying about [TS]

  dragons but I say I haven't read [TS]

  anything I haven't sought out or [TS]

  consciously looked for any dragon themed [TS]

  fantasy since about ninth grade but when [TS]

  I learned that anne mccaffrey had died [TS]

  in i believe was november last year I [TS]

  was still very affected by it because [TS]

  our dragonriders of Pern series was [TS]

  something that provided with hours of [TS]

  entertainment and daydreaming from about [TS]

  fourth grade to eighth grader so and so [TS]

  when an author who shapes that much of [TS]

  your free time during adolescence dies [TS]

  it obviously has an effect on you and [TS]

  actually prompted by her death I went [TS]

  back and reread many of the books in the [TS]

  series [TS]

  well I recommend that the interesting i [TS]

  read them through adult eyes and I read [TS]

  them coming from the perspective of a [TS]

  reader in the 21st century [TS]

  and it was interesting to note what what [TS]

  held up and and what absolutely does not [TS]

  haha yeah i feel we should give mcafee [TS]

  her props because she really did help [TS]

  break open the door for women in science [TS]

  fiction a lot of ways I mean she I think [TS]

  she was one of the first woman to win [TS]

  wasn't a nebula [TS]

  um I have to be I'm not on that up my [TS]

  rewards baidu Murder She the the fact [TS]

  that she said her first step series of [TS]

  Dragon Rider books with a female [TS]

  protagonist and that it's a woman who [TS]

  was doing this was kind of a big deal [TS]

  the time and her non dragon work is is [TS]

  pretty was pretty groundbreaking to this [TS]

  there's a series that starts a book [TS]

  called the ship was saying oh yes [TS]

  yeah where were they take the brain of [TS]

  they take the brain of the terminally [TS]

  lady they stick in a ship and from the [TS]

  splits it leave it it's a classic riff [TS]

  on a trip that you saw a lot in that [TS]

  period because I can also remember i [TS]

  think a ray bradbury or Harlan Ellison [TS]

  story about an autistic person who was [TS]

  sent to explore another planet and the [TS]

  argument was well since their brain [TS]

  processes things differently they're [TS]

  able to their able to parse the data [TS]

  from different planets more effectively [TS]

  than humans and robots can so you know [TS]

  clearly the idea that differently abled [TS]

  people could bring experiences and [TS]

  perspectives to the table that humankind [TS]

  could use and therefore their valuable [TS]

  like that wasn't that reverberate [TS]

  through science fiction the sixties and [TS]

  seventies McCaffrey picked it up [TS]

  embroidered it turned into an epic space [TS]

  romance [TS]

  um but looping back to the Dragons of it [TS]

  is painfully evident she was never a [TS]

  biologist [TS]

  oh yeah oh well and and the unfortunate [TS]

  thing is I i did trained as a biologist [TS]

  LOL well the thing is if she mentions [TS]

  all up in McCaffrey's planet all of her [TS]

  dragons teleport and someone wants to [TS]

  ask for water the Dragons go to the [TS]

  bathroom she goes well they obviously go [TS]

  to the bathroom and the teleportation [TS]

  avoid so nobody ever has to show you [TS]

  medicine and bearing in mind when I was [TS]

  in sixth grade and skipping out cat's [TS]

  litter boxes i thought this is a great [TS]

  thing all be hard it's it's it's a [TS]

  telepathic best friend you never have to [TS]

  clean up after and it will love me a [TS]

  defendant [TS]

  lima over the planet mom because you [TS]

  don't want is your buddy all you do you [TS]

  do your dream especially picked but then [TS]

  you read this is somebody who's an adult [TS]

  and who has you know taking psychology [TS]

  courses and all I could think was that's [TS]

  an awful lot of biomass that's getting [TS]

  deposited to avoid the most kind of [TS]

  closed system so basically the depleting [TS]

  the planet over time with dragon poop [TS]

  how's that sustainable this is not a [TS]

  phosphorus on that planet anymore it's [TS]

  terrible [TS]

  boron is the thing that she's decided to [TS]

  use it also makes no sense i looked at [TS]

  and she thought she was the first woman [TS]

  to win any nebula of any kind and the [TS]

  first woman to win the hugo there yeah [TS]

  yeah yeah yeah she was groundbreaking [TS]

  and you know when again as an adolescent [TS]

  in the early eighties when a lot of the [TS]

  very visible space and fantasy things [TS]

  are exposed to primarily male like the [TS]

  Hamid or the lord of the rings or on TV [TS]

  there with star blazers or star trek to [TS]

  have this world where you know women [TS]

  were effectively running the show and [TS]

  could impress these huge dragons and [TS]

  have adventures and and become equal to [TS]

  men that was tremendously exciting and [TS]

  it wasn't until much much later that I [TS]

  really really well but then I realized [TS]

  that really the dragons are just kind of [TS]

  giant wish-fulfillment machines they [TS]

  giant metaphors [TS]

  yeah there's not a whole lot of cultural [TS]

  resonance but you know as a book series [TS]

  it's something that you know I what some [TS]

  kids go through horse faces i went [TS]

  through dragonface i noticed we have you [TS]

  know what kind a few different authors [TS]

  in our list year were compiling series [TS]

  and a lot of them are female authors and [TS]

  I've wondered if that's I mean this end [TS]

  and writing in that period of time into [TS]

  the essence of the most notable Ursula K [TS]

  Le Guin dragons are a key theme in the [TS]

  RC novels which I remember reading as a [TS]

  kid and just loving and then she did [TS]

  this amazing thing where she completely [TS]

  wreck on her history with the other wind [TS]

  which is a beautiful book and strange [TS]

  and different sort of recast all of your [TS]

  thinking about her work from 20 years [TS]

  before and then there's the Temeraire [TS]

  series by naomi is lasting a blanking at [TS]

  the moment and think no Vic isn't it yes [TS]

  sochi in the temperature is modern [TS]

  and she's still writing entries in it [TS]

  but you know I don't want to get into [TS]

  this like you know our dragons if you go [TS]

  girl thing and I don't know what our boy [TS]

  thing bombs or something but everything [TS]

  else is science fiction rings and swords [TS]

  everything else getting everything else [TS]

  science explains he's a guy I think [TS]

  but rocket but it's a you know it's [TS]

  worth it to bring our wolves [TS]

  it's a right but you know there's that [TS]

  there's title hopes exactly there's that [TS]

  I'm i think is a funny thing about [TS]

  dragons that was at their their giant [TS]

  like overpowering force you know I was [TS]

  wondering if there's a relationship [TS]

  between the way the little kids love [TS]

  dinosaurs and the way fantasy novelist [TS]

  love dragons [TS]

  I think it's not just set vanishing [TS]

  almost love them but readers loves them [TS]

  and they write what page [TS]

  yeah this is true if people like [TS]

  vampires then you find a bunch of [TS]

  vampire books and sadly unfortunately [TS]

  why do we have to try empire drag my [TS]

  dragons yes that's repeatability we [TS]

  could spend a billion dollars sparkling [TS]

  vampire dragons [TS]

  yeah there's nothing more magical about [TS]

  about dragons and there are about [TS]

  dinosaurs sell because actually this it [TS]

  right so it's sort of Komodo dragons you [TS]

  know it's that we have quoted dragons at [TS]

  the local zoo here in Seattle I can't [TS]

  take my children verifying yeah the [TS]

  thing is you walk into the Komodo dragon [TS]

  enclosure where children were small go [TS]

  in there and the kids are cluster on the [TS]

  glass and the Komodo dragons are looking [TS]

  at them like I'm gonna eat that one and [TS]

  that one they don't hide don't hide it [TS]

  like not going in there anymore so [TS]

  there's that primal thing is something [TS]

  how many things are bigger than human [TS]

  beings that aren't you know there's the [TS]

  big cats there's elephants that are [TS]

  there threatening a certain way but but [TS]

  you know the Komodo dragon is freaking [TS]

  enormous and crazy and you're like but I [TS]

  know there's a great Bitan cryptonomicon [TS]

  where one of the characters i think it's [TS]

  supposed to be in world war two with a [TS]

  Japanese soldier is like washed ashore [TS]

  on some Island is part of the convoluted [TS]

  plot netbook ACCC's Komodo dragons and [TS]

  one comes out like it's one of the guys [TS]

  he's with and they're thinking they've [TS]

  lost their minds because they never seen [TS]

  anything like this before but I there's [TS]

  that thing like it's so big like [TS]

  dinosaurs dragons are so huge and [TS]

  powerful and they're often magic they [TS]

  can teleport or they in the tremor [TS]

  series they have [TS]

  the you know they obviously can't fly in [TS]

  violation of laws of physics but they [TS]

  also have here they can speak from birth [TS]

  or even while they're in the egg so [TS]

  there's that [TS]

  what if there's a theme there that that [TS]

  dragon journey for communication miss [TS]

  tonight again with the burn things I [TS]

  went in the cafe decide to write the [TS]

  origin of the Dragons she has a [TS]

  geneticist go in and engineer them so [TS]

  they're telepathic and she did in the [TS]

  engineer also builds in a failed state [TS]

  that the Dragons have to find a human to [TS]

  whom will be subordinate otherwise [TS]

  they'll die in the reasons as a [TS]

  fail-safe is because the last thing you [TS]

  want is an independently thinking alpha [TS]

  predator uncontrolled rampaging this [TS]

  planet [TS]

  um but the magic element I i wonder if [TS]

  it has something to do with the fact [TS]

  that dragons are so ubiquitous in human [TS]

  cultures and have been since bc times i [TS]

  remember reading an article in The New [TS]

  York Times a couple years ago that [TS]

  pointed out that dragons have hit [TS]

  virtually every continent save [TS]

  Antarctica every single almost every [TS]

  continent has a civilization that has [TS]

  had dragons as part of its mythology [TS]

  lower creation story and one person was [TS]

  the arising that this is because a [TS]

  dragon is essentially an amalgamation of [TS]

  a bear you know in terms of the body [TS]

  size proportion and of Reptoids like [TS]

  snakes and Komodo dragons and of big [TS]

  cats and those are the kind of predators [TS]

  that were most likely to pick off for a [TS]

  fish ancestors and so if this this [TS]

  amalgamation of alpha predators that can [TS]

  kill us has been in our subconscious [TS]

  since we were preferable dragons our way [TS]

  that we ve atmosphere and and try to try [TS]

  to turn to something divine I feel like [TS]

  some of our will old myths are very much [TS]

  you know they indicate this as well [TS]

  because like all the old myths are [TS]

  dragons are bad [TS]

  they're here they're scary and they have [TS]

  to be defeated like st. george of the [TS]

  Dragon and you know the the myth of [TS]

  Fafnir in Norse mythology but like [TS]

  recent stories about dragons are all [TS]

  dragons are friendly you know they're [TS]

  dangerous but you can make friends with [TS]

  them and get them to fly around places [TS]

  that's it's good it's funny that bonding [TS]

  thing to its you know if you are the [TS]

  Temeraire Series last year we should we [TS]

  could talk about some specifics at the [TS]

  temporaries I quite like I picked up i [TS]

  think amazon had like a free the first [TS]

  novel as a free kindle book or it was [TS]

  incredibly cheap and I looked at reviews [TS]

  I'm like I don't want to drag in novel [TS]

  and short can be awful and some dragons [TS]

  at the time of Lord Nelson and they're [TS]

  using military campaigns ridiculous and [TS]

  i started reading it and it's fantastic [TS]

  i'm not a military history buff [TS]

  I'm not like a Napoleonic war guy and [TS]

  not even the period novel person it's [TS]

  it's a beautiful book and the the it's [TS]

  it presents an entirely realistic world [TS]

  in which you know it's like there's a [TS]

  great starter life like Night Live [TS]

  sketch of your scale which is this what [TS]

  if series is what if Caesar and had a [TS]

  Piper Cub the intonation Caesar drop and [TS]

  stop them [TS]

  what sort of my record what if what if [TS]

  Nelson army and Napoleon had dragons and [TS]

  what it reads like them is you know the [TS]

  real military battle she thought out how [TS]

  you would have military engagements [TS]

  among you know a lot about a dragon some [TS]

  which can breathe fire and they can fly [TS]

  and you have the outfit the dragons are [TS]

  like ships so they have these guys [TS]

  strapped with carabiners all over the [TS]

  dragon and harnessed so they can be [TS]

  engaging and you know they disengaged [TS]

  your hand and combat in the air and it's [TS]

  it's really quite lovely but the they [TS]

  you know they get to this human [TS]

  relationship as this was talking about [TS]

  with the bonding in the dragonriders of [TS]

  Pern you know now we know that is [TS]

  clearly playing towards that is the [TS]

  Dragons bond even in the egg I think to [TS]

  someone and that person is sort of [TS]

  ruined in society so the flyers in [TS]

  England their outfit for other [TS]

  consumption they have to live out in the [TS]

  middle of nowhere with the Dragons [TS]

  they're basically I kind of a band so [TS]

  the story of the novel start with a [TS]

  fellow is authorized the apple tree and [TS]

  has no interest in being a dragonrider [TS]

  they manage to steal an egg from the [TS]

  French that the Chinese are given the [TS]

  french for some Imperial Dragon and the [TS]

  dragon bonds with him is the only [TS]

  appropriate person [TS]

  so he has to leave this whole career so [TS]

  it's it's very moving and they develop [TS]

  this very touching relationship in the [TS]

  dragon is incredibly smart and I think [TS]

  every three of the novel's now and I'm [TS]

  surprised every time I pick it up and [TS]

  like really i'm reading this and you [TS]

  know it's it's um it's lovely stuff [TS]

  Sarah do you have a favorite to have [TS]

  some dragon favorites [TS]

  oh i have to admit i actually just [TS]

  really picked up my and efficacy read [TS]

  was one of the first sort of dragon [TS]

  books that i read and i I've kept my [TS]

  copy to the years and they were very [TS]

  well and I i have to agree that that the [TS]

  the dragonriders of Pern serious did not [TS]

  wear nearly falling from i started [TS]

  rereading the the dragonriders of Pern [TS]

  the the one with lesson Jackson then the [TS]

  characters just didn't really behave [TS]

  quite like I remember them but no no [TS]

  they really don't do that [TS]

  no it's it's so unfortunate because i [TS]

  love them so much when I was like that [TS]

  old and then there's like portion has [TS]

  like the the romance of riding a horse [TS]

  that the verses are already horse [TS]

  I don't know the reality of riding horse [TS]

  is actually very often and once they [TS]

  don't think the reality of taking care [TS]

  of a horse I bet your partner practical [TS]

  part of the problem is to is again when [TS]

  you read these books through the 21st [TS]

  century perspective these characters or [TS]

  either very poorly served by the author [TS]

  was a mccafe really seems to have it in [TS]

  for a sort of women where they're [TS]

  simultaneously awesome insufferable um [TS]

  and the men are just as high-handed [TS]

  bossy you snobs maybe it's except for [TS]

  the very select few and the way she [TS]

  writes gay men is just the way she [TS]

  raised the game is just a hate crime and [TS]

  it's for its time period [TS]

  well II and again we should probably [TS]

  give her credit for incorporating them [TS]

  as healthy functioning matter-of-fact [TS]

  members in a society because that was [TS]

  pretty rare in the sixties and seventies [TS]

  and and to be honest i missed it when i [TS]

  first started reading the books as a [TS]

  fourth and fifth grader it wasn't until [TS]

  like the penny dropped during puberty [TS]

  that I'm like hey wait a minute and you [TS]

  know so credit McCaffrey for being able [TS]

  to write it in that way but then when [TS]

  you go back and again you read the books [TS]

  you're like wow this this is just [TS]

  is this man does dismount the dragon he [TS]

  pisses off a dragon it's making yeah i'm [TS]

  i'm not a game of thrones watcher but I [TS]

  understand other dragons and game is [TS]

  thrown in there are a game of thrones [TS]

  yeah there's some there are definitely [TS]

  dragons and they're not as they're not [TS]

  really characters per se i feel like [TS]

  they're more plot points the the exiled [TS]

  queen and spoiler by the way I'm wearing [TS]

  what I'm wearing right now [TS]

  [Music] [TS]

  so she has these three dragon eggs that [TS]

  she gets as a present when she gets [TS]

  married and after her husband dies she [TS]

  put them in the fire and they like maybe [TS]

  they've been stone forever and put them [TS]

  in the fire husband's funeral pyre and [TS]

  they emerge and they the first time that [TS]

  anybody seen dragons in the world for [TS]

  like hundreds of years and so is it was [TS]

  the symbol of her old family so it's not [TS]

  like she's coming back her family's [TS]

  coming back into power and you know the [TS]

  Dragons for it like a herald of that so [TS]

  i have to say the dragons are not really [TS]

  they're talking about a lot but they're [TS]

  not much as characters in the game of [TS]

  thrones like Harry Potter or two is you [TS]

  know you have all the dragons throughout [TS]

  harrypotter but they're not actually [TS]

  that interesting there's sort of plot [TS]

  devices and they don't have they seem to [TS]

  be kind of dumb beasts I i like how [TS]

  they're basically the fantasy equivalent [TS]

  of the Yellowstone wolves because you [TS]

  know the u.s. Park Service has been [TS]

  involved in improving the wolves in [TS]

  Yellowstone and tracking them and [TS]

  studying them and basically you have a [TS]

  bunch of wizards who are or who are [TS]

  magical ecologists and their job is to [TS]

  identify always different species of [TS]

  dragons and keep them on a preserve and [TS]

  monitor their well-being and make sure [TS]

  that they're not being hunted to [TS]

  extinction abuse and I thought that was [TS]

  just a wonderful colorful detail on the [TS]

  books that you know they don't learn [TS]

  rigorous science at Hogwarts but they [TS]

  certainly do practice a sort of ethology [TS]

  ecology and I thought that was really [TS]

  cool [TS]

  that's agree that's very funny I never [TS]

  thought about the way it's true it's the [TS]

  end what you contribute to the dragon [TS]

  Restoration Fund only three galleons and [TS]

  two signals will feed the dragon 45 [TS]

  minutes possibly disorder one of my [TS]

  favorite um one of my favorite discworld [TS]

  books is guards guards and it's the book [TS]

  that introduces a character who arguably [TS]

  has become the moral linchpin of the [TS]

  discworld universe i'm talking about [TS]

  terry pratchett discworld but in guards [TS]

  guards what happens is somebody who [TS]

  wants to take over as cities throne [TS]

  summons a dragon from the dimensions [TS]

  wizards and exiled them and naturally [TS]

  the dragon then becomes the king of the [TS]

  city but the citizen at the same time [TS]

  there's also the won't you donate to the [TS]

  dragon fun because [TS]

  in the discworld society matrons instead [TS]

  of breeding horses and dogs actually [TS]

  breathe miniature dragons and they have [TS]

  pedigrees for them in shows but the joke [TS]

  is these dragons always blowing [TS]

  themselves up because they're their body [TS]

  chemistry is so volatile it every time [TS]

  they try to set something on fire they [TS]

  end up exploding oh dear the discworld [TS]

  book is another one that points out [TS]

  um you know that the kid that the idea [TS]

  of dry dragons as part of a magical [TS]

  ecology and the difference between you [TS]

  know tiny pet miniature swamp dragons [TS]

  and the real live magical I can take [TS]

  over your mind and I happen to live in a [TS]

  different dimension because I can't [TS]

  stand humanity you know mythical beasts [TS]

  dragons are always it's like a genie or [TS]

  something i always only solutions [TS]

  depending on the book but they're often [TS]

  like only slightly under control and [TS]

  they could in a moment you know p.m. [TS]

  world-spanning destroying beast or at [TS]

  least wipe out some cities all the stuff [TS]

  that were talking about like we all seem [TS]

  to be referencing stuff that was written [TS]

  within a pretty specific period [TS]

  um and I was wondering if if the dragons [TS]

  moment has passed or dragons are or are [TS]

  not trendy right now and if that's a [TS]

  reflection of water pop culture or if [TS]

  this is a reflection of the fact that [TS]

  we're all out of our our teens [TS]

  well I think too that mean there's two [TS]

  popular series though I mean the [TS]

  temporary series i don't think is not [TS]

  like wild bestsellers I think they've [TS]

  done well in the family she's written a [TS]

  center seventh or eighth book now so [TS]

  they have certainly done at least [TS]

  reasonably well and the eragon series [TS]

  which I have not read by christopher [TS]

  paolini i think is a pressing the names [TS]

  right and easy then he started like a [TS]

  says 17 or something and yeah he was he [TS]

  was 14 I think and I've read some of the [TS]

  dialogue and it's sort of extra couple [TS]

  but you know it's been sort of it's that [TS]

  sort of genre but how many books is he [TS]

  into four or five and it's come to the [TS]

  conclusion of the of the arc so it may [TS]

  be more I mean it's kind of costco thing [TS]

  it's like you have a hundred different [TS]

  dragon story is going on her to really [TS]

  big ones but I feel like they've kind of [TS]

  dropped out of consciousness they seem [TS]

  to become a plot device opposed to a [TS]

  driving force as much maybe in fantasy [TS]

  and it's become more sophisticated a [TS]

  magic is a big thing you read everything [TS]

  you do with fantasy now has to develop [TS]

  an entire we were just [TS]

  but the magician's of a recent [TS]

  uncomfortable so you know to book [TS]

  universe there Harry Potter world is all [TS]

  about these sort of intricacies of [TS]

  spells interactions of spells and things [TS]

  like that I wonder if that's if that's [TS]

  sort of i'm walking as replace the big [TS]

  giant rampaging Beast excision repair I [TS]

  think you just want my mind glad I'm [TS]

  trying I'm trying to think if there's [TS]

  some sort of larger societal parallel [TS]

  aware because we're heading into an [TS]

  information society our fantasy is [TS]

  beginning to reflect that bias similarly [TS]

  uh you know it's like the same way [TS]

  vampires should become protagonist they [TS]

  were always you know the other yes I [TS]

  mean it's no dragons are not becoming [TS]

  buddies too funny [TS]

  yeah I mean there's nothing of the movie [TS]

  thing like their movies in which dragons [TS]

  like even schrack you know what the [TS]

  dragon is evil and 7600 you're a lady [TS]

  dragon oh you're in love with a donkey [TS]

  sweet pretty sweet that there was a big [TS]

  surprise but do you know or the wasn't [TS]

  how to tame a dragon [TS]

  how to train your dragon yeah it was is [TS]

  someone to motor Dragonheart i'm not i [TS]

  can't think of all the movies that have [TS]

  dragons and then we'll get the hobbit [TS]

  coming up soon to the two-part Hobbit [TS]

  will have small dragon was the dragon of [TS]

  my channel done over everybody's I mean [TS]

  it'sit's you can't make him nice [TS]

  there's no way to make him nice and [TS]

  cuddly no definitely not ya gonna bring [TS]

  that know what's funny is an interesting [TS]

  read Tolkien like I remember reading the [TS]

  hop into the hobbit and you read Lord of [TS]

  the Rings doesn't really have you got [TS]

  the horrible creatures that the Black [TS]

  Riders their beasts that are some kind [TS]

  of evil stench Aryan thing but but the [TS]

  the silmarillion has some drag incident [TS]

  they do crazy things like hypnotize [TS]

  people for the rest of their lives and [TS]

  so forth with always occupying halls and [TS]

  there's things like that that was always [TS]

  think I never understood about fairy [TS]

  tales was why would dragons want to do [TS]

  something as mundane as occupy Castle [TS]

  you're a dragon you have unlimited power [TS]

  when they get out of hoarding all this [TS]

  jewels and gold [TS]

  I mean don't go shopping with it what I [TS]

  do is it requested to ask you earlier [TS]

  story is so do you have a drag [TS]

  is there a dragon if affinity you have [TS]

  some particular novel series that [TS]

  affected you that you like to talk about [TS]

  looking back [TS]

  actually I never would have a dragon [TS]

  phase as such was more like things i [TS]

  like just happen to have dragons in and [TS]

  a lot of things like just happen to have [TS]

  dragons in them [TS]

  oh maybe it's just that i read in [TS]

  mccaffrey at exactly the right point in [TS]

  my life [TS]

  yeah when dragonsong & Dragons singer [TS]

  you know and mentally her just hit me it [TS]

  just the right point in high school and [TS]

  middle school [TS]

  oh ok how much troubled history today [TS]

  and McCaffrey podcast I dreamed of [TS]

  having only one had ever read her [TS]

  together one of her novels when I was a [TS]

  kid but it was but it was that girl [TS]

  anything right a McCaffrey was something [TS]

  that girls red and it was an acceptable [TS]

  form of fantasy and i was reading sort [TS]

  of Shannara which was something also [TS]

  that girls on a red but it wasn't it was [TS]

  like that was acceptable to go out the [TS]

  sword book and the girls had the dragon [TS]

  book and feel like there's used to be a [TS]

  split like that partly the portrayal of [TS]

  dragons to was like no boy these days [TS]

  going to go around reading Twilight she [TS]

  said yeah I'm sure there are some but [TS]

  yeah that's right now the region and [TS]

  also sure he's too sensitive caring [TS]

  sensitive caring vampires isn't there [TS]

  it's either conventional wisdom were [TS]

  published studies that point out the [TS]

  girls are much more willing to read [TS]

  books with male protagonists boys [TS]

  typically do not pick up books with [TS]

  female protagonists right and with the [TS]

  McCaffrey ye novels that lead into the [TS]

  driveway leading to Pern that's [TS]

  dragonsong dragon senior dragon drums [TS]

  for the first to the protagonist is [TS]

  always a young woman is trying to break [TS]

  into a male-oriented profession so [TS]

  that's not going to provide an entryway [TS]

  for young men and then with the adult [TS]

  fare which is dragonflight and then the [TS]

  empty million dragon tales that came [TS]

  after it again these inverse to UM that [TS]

  much of the action centers around women [TS]

  who are writing gold dragons and again [TS]

  i'm sure guys read those because if you [TS]

  go through / fan forums there are plenty [TS]

  of guys who are weighing in on the stuff [TS]

  but I do wonder if you're 14 year old [TS]

  boy or like why don't care about some [TS]

  broad riding a dragon [TS]

  now there's some other stuff that you [TS]

  want to read and she hot [TS]

  she says she said her some more vampire [TS]

  yeah and I knew it's a yeah it's um you [TS]

  know so I want everything to be like the [TS]

  dragon unicom unicorn paradox which is [TS]

  you know unicorns of course to attract [TS]

  unicorn i was talking about somebody [TS]

  recently and I said you know how to [TS]

  attract unicorn and they said no and I [TS]

  said well I understand mythology right [TS]

  near the young female version no one [TS]

  else maybe what I need a virgin universe [TS]

  doesn't even know if he wasn't female [TS]

  virtually championship assumed i guess [TS]

  you could be you could be an ancient [TS]

  male or female version 2 is true but [TS]

  there's that sort of you know the [TS]

  virginal purity and you have to have the [TS]

  woman you know there's that scene if you [TS]

  remember in the mortadella Arthur but [TS]

  add what's the the Arthur or 30 and [TS]

  retelling once and future king is it I [TS]

  well remember that terrible everyone [TS]

  goes all you have to describe i'll [TS]

  describe four meters bring in brief [TS]

  terms but the kids from the Orkneys [TS]

  including Arthur's to the Sun bastard [TS]

  son they go off hunting a unicorn and [TS]

  they sort of what they capture young [TS]

  woman they tired of the trees they can [TS]

  attract unicorn and then they kill it if [TS]

  you bring its head back to their mother [TS]

  is Morgan favorite is the mother in that [TS]

  orgasm from mother [TS]

  alright yeah yeah and they wanted to [TS]

  impress her and she's of course [TS]

  horrified I mean she's evil herself but [TS]

  is more fighting this and is that always [TS]

  that notion of you kill a unicorn it's [TS]

  and harry potter of course it's [TS]

  everywhere else you're taking some kind [TS]

  of purity and beauty of the world nobody [TS]

  thinks that way about dragons accepted [TS]

  the discworld the whole way that started [TS]

  up in once and future king was that more [TS]

  gals going out with night from the court [TS]

  and she was portraying the virgin and [TS]

  you know what you're supposed to be [TS]

  hinting at you know [TS]

  well of course they're not catching [TS]

  anything yes well she's got four sons [TS]

  but the kids see this and they think oh [TS]

  mom must really want a unicorn right and [TS]

  they think they're doing something for [TS]

  mom it's kind of heartbreaking it i was [TS]

  about to say that the the relationship [TS]

  between orgasms her son's is one of the [TS]

  most heartbreaking things you're reading [TS]

  a book let's follow him [TS]

  I mean th weight pulls no punches when [TS]

  he shows how toxic or absent love from a [TS]

  parent can really really warm a child [TS]

  for life and the people who do it [TS]

  deliberately to their children are [TS]

  monsters [TS]

  it's yes it's angry and heartbreaking [TS]

  that's right the dysfunctional family [TS]

  told in Arthurian legend it's pretty [TS]

  there's a good recommendation is a good [TS]

  recognition for an uplifting novel [TS]

  though it's great but it's fun it's [TS]

  perfect best casting margarita broadcast [TS]

  1i in on that one I can talk about are [TS]

  three-inch never will get it will get [TS]

  you back for r 3 and r 3 legends coming [TS]

  soon I'm comfortable here is enough the [TS]

  others a million things to talk about [TS]

  Excalibur the movie but the but the [TS]

  unicorn think so that you know unicorns [TS]

  are always supposed to be pure and I [TS]

  always thought that was kind of this [TS]

  funny thing because you have the again [TS]

  you know whether it's a female or girl [TS]

  thing that the interest in dragons are [TS]

  the Spanish novels with dragons in [TS]

  sci-fi novels with dragons and the [TS]

  unicorn we don't get novels written [TS]

  about you ? coins are boring it's sort [TS]

  of like heaven as an afterlife sorry [TS]

  I've got the harp and the wings now what [TS]

  am I supposed to be doing your are [TS]

  living in perfect bliss is right and [TS]

  that's for that say yes something like [TS]

  okay I got you record and i have i have [TS]

  a slight it's funny you mention that [TS]

  though because one of the things I did [TS]

  stick in RR pre-show notes in Gabrielle [TS]

  case for his fantasy epic the field of [TS]

  our tapestry which is made up of three [TS]

  separate novels on the longest road the [TS]

  wandering fire and the summer tree and I [TS]

  just name them in reverse order by the [TS]

  way I'm anyway there are two instances [TS]

  of dragons in that series and the first [TS]

  is a dragon that was read by the forces [TS]

  of darkness and has been biding its time [TS]

  for thousands of years and is just [TS]

  basically mindless killing machine and [TS]

  then there's a second dragon and it's a [TS]

  dragon that's definitely made of crystal [TS]

  but the thing is um it is apparently the [TS]

  foundational force for a doorman [TS]

  civilization this this this civilization [TS]

  of doors evolved to serve [TS]

  the dragon into worship her in a weird [TS]

  kind of Episcopalian way where they just [TS]

  have really nice public spaces and they [TS]

  make statues and then just go about [TS]

  their daughters business but this [TS]

  dragons obviously supposed to represent [TS]

  some sort of civilizing force and over [TS]

  the course of the massive three-book war [TS]

  it's evident that the two dragons are [TS]

  supposed to be headed for a showdown [TS]

  but what happens instead is some young [TS]

  upstart takes his unicorn uses it to [TS]

  kill a dragon instead so the world and [TS]

  themes colliding also its a spoiler horn [TS]

  but the series is like 30 years old so [TS]

  you deserve to be spoiled if you haven't [TS]

  read it but but if it was it was [TS]

  interesting because they use the unicorn [TS]

  in a purely Marshall sense throughout [TS]

  that entire series where the unicorn [TS]

  descends from whatever divine plan [TS]

  happens to have lift on it bonds with [TS]

  this one young boy and all they do is go [TS]

  and kill things I mean he writes that [TS]

  Unicorn to battle the Unicorn is [TS]

  basically a living sword he kills things [TS]

  and that he comes home wipes off the [TS]

  blood hangs with the uniform until the [TS]

  next battle my god [TS]

  ya know horrible and we that is in this [TS]

  but it's all absolutely recommend that [TS]

  the fan of our tapestry it is i think i [TS]

  did i put in like the new the new canon [TS]

  Tom it's one of the two it's one of two [TS]

  badass unicorns in fantasy literature [TS]

  and it won't be gaudy or from metal [TS]

  angles so Marie O'Keefe books I think [TS]

  gaudy or shows up in a swiftly tilting [TS]

  planet which is the third of the books [TS]

  about meg and Charles Wallace and I'm [TS]

  going off of memory here because i [TS]

  haven't read this book site remember the [TS]

  other ways he stern as opposed to evil [TS]

  right is nice but he's a badass i mean [TS]

  yeah he does he is not break any [TS]

  nonsense whatsoever and there is a scene [TS]

  where is the birth of a unicorn but [TS]

  basically Madeleine L'Engle on her whole [TS]

  thing with the importances their [TS]

  otherworldly and they symbolize justice [TS]

  and the fearlessness and the pitiless [TS]

  required to uphold higher ideal [TS]

  sometimes right and again it's a very [TS]

  militant almost warrior like unicorn [TS]

  compared to how it's lovely [TS]

  that's attracted to young women who [TS]

  would mysteriously have never had a [TS]

  boyfriend and you know what's going [TS]

  another one which is Diana [TS]

  professionalizing Peter friend who the [TS]

  killer unicorn university i started [TS]

  reading one like a short story about [TS]

  where the unicorns are all deadly and [TS]

  hunted and they have been up in their [TS]

  fangs and they like to kill people and [TS]

  there are telepathic people who are [TS]

  bonded to unicorns and it's the sort of [TS]

  hilarious i thought it was like a joke [TS]

  story because it seems so absurd but I [TS]

  think she now has I'm understand for [TS]

  website but she has for such as two [TS]

  books out but there's some other stuff [TS]

  coming out looks like as well as two [TS]

  short works into a long work so i must [TS]

  read this now i think i think killer [TS]

  unit mornings are the new like the new [TS]

  dragons [TS]

  look we have met the dragon they are now [TS]

  do they fly that's always the question [TS]

  you request you know some unicorns are [TS]

  also winged horses as it's not me some [TS]

  pic it was a pickled pigs and record all [TS]

  right that's what they are [TS]

  that's weird out of the title of the [TS]

  episode the pegacorn sorry you've been [TS]

  so quiet have we have we just gibberish [TS]

  average you out of existence i have to [TS]

  mean I've been very quiet because i [TS]

  haven't read any of the things you you [TS]

  are discussing and I my one unicorn book [TS]

  in front of his is a brusque ovals [TS]

  influence the unicorns which is a young [TS]

  adult novel you might remember bruce [TS]

  coville from my teacher is an alien same [TS]

  no no I don't know I don't always work [TS]

  what's so hat is so as fantasy or so [TS]

  this is both an alias you definitely it [TS]

  so definitely definitely sort of fat [TS]

  young adult fantasy sci fi am so anyway [TS]

  in Atlanta horns is actually kind of [TS]

  that almost a dark fantasy of unicorns [TS]

  we're gonna be no there's some good [TS]

  unicorns therapist and bad unicorns but [TS]

  it's it's kind of fascinating because [TS]

  young girl gets pulled into the length [TS]

  unicorns and she has to defeat the bad [TS]

  unicorns with the help of the good [TS]

  unicorns and isn't very dark for for an [TS]

  apple for 12 year old but it lasts [TS]

  unicorns are not quite the subject of [TS]

  this podcast so well it's funny I think [TS]

  we have the unicorn dragon dialectic [TS]

  aerate the the battlements we are the [TS]

  first it's the battle between the forces [TS]

  but even that's I think that's what it [TS]

  comes down to for me is [TS]

  I've been trying to figure out this is [TS]

  we started talking with the podcast [TS]

  while ago is is you know it is it plays [TS]

  a convenient plot device you know we [TS]

  talked about it being a maybe an [TS]

  archetype temple thing that's deeply [TS]

  rooted in our brains for some reason you [TS]

  know unicorns also seem to be all over [TS]

  the place and they're in across there's [TS]

  sort of a common trope to and if dragons [TS]

  disappeared we get more unicorns they [TS]

  start populating the universe more I [TS]

  don't know maybe goes it with the whole [TS]

  big information society type of thing [TS]

  where there's no longer huge frontiers [TS]

  to team with big myth with big dangerous [TS]

  animals that could kill you and we've [TS]

  now got to the point where we're trying [TS]

  to coexist with the species that are [TS]

  still left in a highly regulated world [TS]

  I mean you think about we we we live in [TS]

  a world where TV show is just shut down [TS]

  because three brace horses were died [TS]

  during the filming of the episode of [TS]

  business [TS]

  what was that it was luck which [TS]

  intensely pedigreed show on HBO i'm in [TS]

  Dustin Hoffman was in it and it had a [TS]

  great cast and David melt was behind it [TS]

  is generally top of the field but [TS]

  because it was a show about horses at a [TS]

  racetrack [TS]

  I'm over the course of filming the 13 [TS]

  episodes that will make up the series [TS]

  three different horses had to be put [TS]

  down [TS]

  no dear and it's raised a lot of well [TS]

  it's it's raised questions that people [TS]

  have been asking for years about the [TS]

  moral and ethical obligations of using [TS]

  animals for entertainment and you know [TS]

  as a society first-world Westerners are [TS]

  kind of moving into a new phase of our [TS]

  relationship with animals we no longer [TS]

  regard them as beasts of burden and as [TS]

  and as food and as a commodity to be [TS]

  bred and used as we please where we are [TS]

  now beginning to get to the point were [TS]

  actively concerned about the emotional [TS]

  lives of animals and their living [TS]

  conditions and what our moral [TS]

  responsibility to two other two other [TS]

  you know living systems on this planet [TS]

  are and so maybe fantasy is beginning to [TS]

  reflect that because we're going from [TS]

  less of a how can i use and exert my [TS]

  dominion over this uncomfortable force [TS]

  into how do i maintain my status is a [TS]

  moral or ethical being while working [TS]

  with completely different species [TS]

  you see reflected a lot of different [TS]

  ways i think too i mean that's [TS]

  interesting you bring that up in [TS]

  relationship to I mean there's there's [TS]

  the older areas of both fantasy and [TS]

  science fiction which were not just [TS]

  male-dominated it was these great you [TS]

  know empires and things crashing to the [TS]

  ground and huge forces and everything [TS]

  had to be subject to the will of the [TS]

  whatever the wizard or the king and so [TS]

  forth and forces arrayed and then as [TS]

  things become more and more morally [TS]

  ambiguous like well you know we own this [TS]

  dragons like to really own the dragon [TS]

  and you everyone a dragon maybe the [TS]

  dragon is leasing itself to you and its [TS]

  really got its own power and his dragons [TS]

  you [TS]

  that's what I would be actually very [TS]

  curious to see when all these books are [TS]

  written and then like what exactly the [TS]

  relationship that the dragon is with the [TS]

  human part is if any will leave the [TS]

  reader there's a reader reader exercise [TS]

  would you please restart the areas but [TS]

  yeah it's a big money it's also i think [TS]

  i'm trying to think back historically [TS]

  you know even like reading for the 19th [TS]

  century I know that fantasy is not a [TS]

  monitor John response fiction is of [TS]

  course you know at least you have to go [TS]

  back to the eighteen eighties or [TS]

  something but I'm a the job of the the [TS]

  idea of having fantastical animals in [TS]

  books isn't new but they're used very [TS]

  allegorically and I can't think of [TS]

  examples before the 20th century in [TS]

  which you would have you know these [TS]

  giant beasts maybe it was partly because [TS]

  we didn't believe that anything that big [TS]

  existed you know in the Western in [TS]

  Western literature at least that we [TS]

  didn't have experience with you know [TS]

  elephants and we went to Africa or will [TS]

  be reports back that sounded ridiculous [TS]

  or fighting skeletons of dinosaurs [TS]

  things like that the bones of dinosaurs [TS]

  that it was just beyond the scope of we [TS]

  can encompass so it's sort of a modern [TS]

  phenomenon even think about stuff that's [TS]

  that big now bear in mind i know my not [TS]

  my I have no survey knowledge of [TS]

  literature in the 15th to 18th centuries [TS]

  um Big Apple the education but from what [TS]

  I can recall of history of up from my [TS]

  history lessons in school one of the [TS]

  predominant themes of Correspondence [TS]

  when people colonize the new worlds was [TS]

  they go fishing [TS]

  and then see a sturgeon that was easily [TS]

  you know 12 feet long or they go into [TS]

  the woods and run across bears or deer [TS]

  that were larger than anything that ever [TS]

  encountered in Europe so so from about [TS]

  the fifteen sixteen hundreds we've had [TS]

  people who have sponges really vivid [TS]

  correspondences of I've come to this [TS]

  brave new world where there are monsters [TS]

  of tremendous sighs um you know they're [TS]

  there is an experience i don't know that [TS]

  i have that would be reflected in [TS]

  whatever the fictional traditions of the [TS]

  time would be or if that would even be a [TS]

  factor or if this was for it would just [TS]

  be something that would be transmitted [TS]

  through through folktales or popular [TS]

  accounts something to keep in mind there [TS]

  is whole you know the one that got away [TS]

  trip [TS]

  uh oh you should have seen the fish it [TS]

  was this is big [TS]

  people tend to remember this is bo [TS]

  bigger house you know bigger than a [TS]

  casual bigger than there's also a they [TS]

  did this go back as far as I think at [TS]

  least the 12th century of Marco Polo and [TS]

  then he was he was describing unicorns [TS]

  but he was actually describing like when [TS]

  Officer I think that's right that's like [TS]

  the the manatees being mistaken for her [TS]

  mates because he's perfect those were [TS]

  some lonely since then and I think even [TS]

  goes back rather than that there and [TS]

  soon i remember there being a camera [TS]

  name but there's this Greek a traveler [TS]

  who travels in released and then found [TS]

  him fantastic piece i would have to go [TS]

  looking up again but Jason and the [TS]

  Argonauts uh did that's a myth all [TS]

  centered on its own [TS]

  oh I was talking about his historical I [TS]

  know you mean around and come together [TS]

  was a facilities but it was um yeah [TS]

  right because he brought yeah his [TS]

  reports were a mix of like complete [TS]

  fiction and and historical accuracy [TS]

  right so that yeah people took them [TS]

  hundreds years to figure out what it [TS]

  actually was actually real elsewhere in [TS]

  the world [TS]

  yeah exactly i so i think we definitely [TS]

  like have these stories where people [TS]

  were had this story where they would [TS]

  just say like oh my god I went to this [TS]

  place and I saw these big things like [TS]

  you will not believe the things I saw [TS]

  and and what's really interesting about [TS]

  these books the books that we've listed [TS]

  here the more modern ones that people [TS]

  are they're not really like oh no not [TS]

  you won't believe what I saw anymore [TS]

  they're all like oh well we've now [TS]

  created this world you know you do is [TS]

  we're going to try and make it [TS]

  believable as possible [TS]

  that's funny so we really so we've come [TS]

  to this so i think our panel conclusion [TS]

  is that a is that the more of the world [TS]

  that we know the lesser is to explore [TS]

  the more these things that are sort of [TS]

  outside like dragons or improbable like [TS]

  an acquaintance they've been pushed out [TS]

  right [TS]

  it is an ecological problems notice [TS]

  there's no niche left for them in our [TS]

  fantasy month so all we posit this then [TS]

  so is the alien series of movies are [TS]

  those the Dragons of outer space [TS]

  you know their their scaly they're [TS]

  freaky they breathe fire in the form of [TS]

  acid they kill people are arguing is [TS]

  that was that we had to push them with [TS]

  exiled in the outer space [TS]

  definitely definitely and they're such I [TS]

  think I don't know that I agree i think [TS]

  it's more just you know generic bad guy [TS]

  how do you make something that's scary [TS]

  well the saurian species as always it's [TS]

  always lizard people right we're always [TS]

  freaked out about lizard people in outer [TS]

  space and the insect people definitely [TS]

  to the whole yet that's you know that's [TS]

  a subject for the podcast always want to [TS]

  talk about the great writer James T at [TS]

  Tiptree jr. Alice Sheldon we will do a [TS]

  podcast I'm trying to some enough people [TS]

  to read her because she's so if you read [TS]

  James Tiptree too much your soul dies a [TS]

  little bit even as it flies in the air [TS]

  its people must read her biography it's [TS]

  a marvelous she's a kick crazy but she [TS]

  is she is these novels these insect [TS]

  characters who are always being preyed [TS]

  upon because they're been tortured their [TS]

  tears are producing alcohol finer than [TS]

  any substance in the universe perfect [TS]

  tiptree but we are sort of freaked out [TS]

  about insects but I think about saurian [TS]

  species and star trek with the skirt [TS]

  coming to make his makeshift weapon to [TS]

  kill the poor the disabled the lizard [TS]

  creature and it is in the original [TS]

  series of V there's that mean that [TS]

  people have this whole thing [TS]

  crazy people believe that lizards have [TS]

  invaded our planet [TS]

  run it and it's like this really [TS]

  widespread me it's sort of the [TS]

  terrifying how many people have a this [TS]

  lizard person thing going on so I wonder [TS]

  if that's part of the two you know [TS]

  lizards dragons you know that there's a [TS]

  there's there's a series I'm about what [TS]

  would have happened if the dinosaurs [TS]

  hadn't died off and had instead involved [TS]

  up commented analog and it is killing me [TS]

  not for the series because basically the [TS]

  whole thing comes down to that lately [TS]

  and it's is a no-no not Dinotopia that's [TS]

  the get the kids version i think i saw [TS]

  that movie the Fantastic them being [TS]

  either leave done interviews like holy [TS]

  cats dinosaurs thanks crystal exist this [TS]

  was holy cats [TS]

  we have humans human-like by bipedal [TS]

  animals that are little blooded and [TS]

  smarter than we are [TS]

  oh IC totally different series i hope [TS]

  you all saw the recent paper that was [TS]

  talking about the wasn't about camera it [TS]

  was about issue of handedness in [TS]

  chemical structures found in meteorites [TS]

  and the relationship to life on the [TS]

  planet and it finished with the line [TS]

  which I hope you also i wish with a line [TS]

  that was if this happened the same and [TS]

  other planets as possible there are [TS]

  super-intelligent dinosaurs out there [TS]

  and we should beware of them and i'm not [TS]

  kidding this is peer-reviewed paper and [TS]

  that was the last long after all this [TS]

  destruction of august time the consensus [TS]

  of the scientific community that is if [TS]

  there's life out there and it's going to [TS]

  get to us we should be very afraid [TS]

  I think so i think there's we have it [TS]

  considers Drake's equation and that's [TS]

  like a very like pine skies for the [TS]

  equation where you know there's probably [TS]

  life out there but the length of their [TS]

  civilization and how long they exist and [TS]

  you know the level of their technology [TS]

  is such that we're probably never going [TS]

  to see them [TS]

  yeah that's right you have to be the [TS]

  sweet spot where you actually you're [TS]

  still alive and they're still alive when [TS]

  they get right yeah exactly like you [TS]

  know what you need [TS]

  they have to prevent themselves from [TS]

  blowing themselves up and you know via [TS]

  nuclear you know devastation or [TS]

  something whatever their analog is a [TS]

  murder [TS]

  yeah so it's I think for the most part [TS]

  we've we've concluded that probably [TS]

  there's life out there because there's a [TS]

  lot of space but probably not going to [TS]

  see it anytime soon but they might be [TS]

  dragons there [TS]

  there might be giants it's a great bands [TS]

  a new cover band of sorry [TS]

  yes i do they have opposable thumbs [TS]

  that's always come how do they hold the [TS]

  sword yeah with their minds that's all [TS]

  about the dinosaur [TS]

  I mean all thought dinosaurs are [TS]

  telepathic right like a pretty much [TS]

  every single one of these series they [TS]

  they communicate telepathically with the [TS]

  the humans are the only one that's you [TS]

  know the the temper when they actually [TS]

  oh but they do have some kind of deep [TS]

  bonding [TS]

  yeah actually one series i read as a [TS]

  child with the Dragons didn't it was I'm [TS]

  canyons pit dragons yes yes that was a [TS]

  fantastic series it is and i think one [TS]

  of the things I liked about it was how [TS]

  complex and realistic the whole [TS]

  planetary society seemed compared to a [TS]

  lot of other dragon centric societies [TS]

  but yes [TS]

  what's interesting with the way you'll [TS]

  entreats the Dragons is the relationship [TS]

  between the people the Dragons a lot [TS]

  more like the relationship between [TS]

  peoples and any sort of specific class [TS]

  of animal you know here here on earth [TS]

  it's not [TS]

  oh I have a telepathic best friend who [TS]

  could set you onto five you think [TS]

  they're like they're fighting dogs in in [TS]

  the dragon degrees [TS]

  oh yeah well I friends convinced me to [TS]

  watch the neverending story and which I [TS]

  never saw when I was a kid [TS]

  meaning it's i would say it's worth [TS]

  watching because it is yes it is the [TS]

  most peculiar movie i think i have that [TS]

  are like in an era of peculiar movies [TS]

  there's all these inexplicable things is [TS]

  just very weird it feels like it was [TS]

  edited from two different movies in [TS]

  another language with a friend mechanism [TS]

  put on english and it's possible that's [TS]

  what the case was but there is a dragon [TS]

  looks like a giant dog it's a lot of [TS]

  muppets in the film and and we have a [TS]

  giant parrot [TS]

  yeah that's get more like a very strange [TS]

  neck and is so there's the end of the [TS]

  movie spoiler horn the end of the movie [TS]

  is the kid from the real world is flying [TS]

  the dragon back into the real world [TS]

  where it's chasing down the bullies who [TS]

  bothered him at the beginning of the [TS]

  movie you know it's been with you yeah [TS]

  and for that we need writing for you [TS]

  know exactly you're gonna drag that's [TS]

  why it's popular in the Y a world right [TS]

  now Puff the Magic Dragon [TS]

  huh who hasn't dreamed of alicia a [TS]

  dragon on your enemies experience [TS]

  different different different type of [TS]

  Dragon I think you'd make friends with [TS]

  them [TS]

  yeah he's your friend yeah kids don't [TS]

  you implanted kicked out of school [TS]

  that's my take on it well at the risk of [TS]

  not I'm sorry dragging this on I have to [TS]

  say it's been delightful talk dragons [TS]

  with you all and we'll have to come back [TS]

  and talk about unicorns more James [TS]

  Tiptree and the once and future king in [TS]

  the future but I thank you all for being [TS]

  here tonight my co-host Lisa Schmeisser [TS]

  who with him we cook this idea of [TS]

  together thank you I'll Glenn did all [TS]

  the heavy one thing really well and [TS]

  endorse me thank you for being on your [TS]

  first time on our podcast thank you very [TS]

  much help to come out again thank you [TS]

  very much absolutely Sarah barber thank [TS]

  you for being here also another [TS]

  first-timer thank you for coming out and [TS]

  talking dragons with us thank you for [TS]

  having me so much and we will be back [TS]

  again soon i have no idea what's gonna [TS]

  happen the next episode of the [TS]

  incomparable may be other games shows [TS]

  something in saying that you will you [TS]

  will curse us for airing but we hope to [TS]

  have you back soon [TS]

  thanks for listening [TS]

  [Music] [TS]

  so you've been so quiet have we have we [TS]

  just jibber-jabber you out of existence [TS]

  are you just shocked by us [TS]

  hello Sarah we lost her [TS]

  Cooper what's a little bit because I was [TS]

  feeling so back to something and the [TS]

  cavern in be [TS]