The Incomparable

127: Walking and Talking


  the incomparable number 127 februari [TS]

  2013 I am Dan Morrison him for Jason [TS]

  Snell our usual host and today we're [TS]

  here to talk about the many works of [TS]

  aaron sorkin i'm joined by an all-star [TS]

  panel i think we did this joke yesterday [TS]

  when are they going to be using the pic [TS]

  they keep not showing up and I go with [TS]

  you guys we keep on missing my lights we [TS]

  have to my state is a state right you [TS]

  know this that stage right to my stage [TS]

  right serenity Caldwell [TS]

  hello folks Lex Friedman who doesn't [TS]

  know anything about Aaron Sorkin has [TS]

  never seen any of these shows tennis [TS]

  balls i have seen everything areas we [TS]

  only invited the light shows when you [TS]

  haven't actually seen thing I don't [TS]

  belong here that I've seen in general [TS]

  Carlson a special guest [TS]

  I am very excited to talk about any [TS]

  Sorkin check out the state you're done [TS]

  okay and a a very ill plaguey danfore [TS]

  takes who's gonna take a little longer [TS]

  contagious but you don't want to use [TS]

  this so he says don't get too closely [TS]

  don't don't use like you have yeah [TS]

  there's a reason we're all sitting far [TS]

  away i want to be off the stage but that [TS]

  was it was next [TS]

  your theme so far as everybody get off [TS]

  the stage yeah I know I I really just [TS]

  wanted to me up here and then and then [TS]

  is to be the best podcast ever Jeff and [TS]

  I thought we should have opened this [TS]

  podcast with like us walking in through [TS]

  a few doors and having gld we have a [TS]

  procedure having a religion for this [TS]

  really should all be walking we could [TS]

  walk during this can be just me there's [TS]

  only this must be 20 people here they [TS]

  just follow us around [TS]

  I mean if we're gonna do we're working I [TS]

  mean yeah no absolutely [TS]

  i I didn't write any dialogue i don't [TS]

  know about you guys but they're my [TS]

  writing with a dialogue that starts off [TS]

  here now we really need witty dialogue [TS]

  sweet deals worried i was working with a [TS]

  guy like that [TS]

  we have to start using a lot of [TS]

  statistics right away Michael [TS]

  eighty-seven percent of podcasts that [TS]

  try to use with the dialogue find [TS]

  seventy percent of the time they're [TS]

  unsuccessful of those efforts i'm really [TS]

  hoping that that the john bolton sitting [TS]

  back there will hold up a sign saying [TS]

  America is a terrible country and then [TS]

  yeah okay thanks that's good that's good [TS]

  and I'm going on to the sharpie [TS]

  uh yeah so as we moved you were talking [TS]

  about Aaron Sorkin of course who is the [TS]

  scribe behind many a TV show in movie [TS]

  and play is play right as well as early [TS]

  career started out I think I think he [TS]

  started out in theatres and then moved [TS]

  to keep the film is earliest films [TS]

  include malice and alec baldwin in favor [TS]

  call about a doctor that's what he's [TS]

  really gone back to that one kind of [TS]

  moved on but then we have a few good men [TS]

  which of course i think was his first [TS]

  really big hit started to play right [TS]

  with indeed an American president which [TS]

  is the west wing season 0 i like to call [TS]

  it right it's creepy to watch the [TS]

  American president because you're why is [TS]

  the president helping up you lazy the [TS]

  chief of staff and why is the president [TS]

  Leo right this is weird and you know you [TS]

  got to Nancy McNally's isn't doing her [TS]

  job [TS]

  it's crazy Josh Malina doesn't have that [TS]

  many lines it's really strange that you [TS]

  get and then he comes back in the shows [TS]

  a different person later and yeah it's [TS]

  very confusing mom got it like so the [TS]

  best raise ever click an assistant and [TS]

  guess what now you're gonna be the [TS]

  president so what what were your entries [TS]

  into circuit like what was the first [TS]

  thing that you sell by him [TS]

  well I didn't realize he was aaron [TS]

  sorkin when I was so if you admit the [TS]

  fact that he really until last week that [TS]

  oh yeah how is aaron sorkin you couldn't [TS]

  handle the truth is where exactly I [TS]

  always thought it was an American [TS]

  president was my entry in there and [TS]

  circle but i guess it was a few good men [TS]

  damn morning tell me what are your [TS]

  thoughts on you [TS]

  this is a setup because Lex knows i [TS]

  haven't seen you good [TS]

  david hasn't we wouldn't it is one of [TS]

  only two things that I haven't seen [TS]

  Byron circuit analysis have not seen [TS]

  malice excuse boom haven't seen anything [TS]

  past what was that you're in 1995 [TS]

  haven't seen anything earlier than 1995 [TS]

  business has been waiting for like two [TS]

  years to have a panel about some reason [TS]

  you see the damn war is not you know i [TS]

  might wish i had watched it last night [TS]

  just to set you up to attend my first [TS]

  aaron sorkin movie was the American [TS]

  president I saw a few good many years [TS]

  later as is my habit but I mean I love [TS]

  the American president and interestingly [TS]

  enough my wife loves the American [TS]

  president to that's one of our three or [TS]

  four go to movies we can't think of [TS]

  anything else to watch we'll just watch [TS]

  that again but she never got into the [TS]

  West Wing where I feel like they I mean [TS]

  clearly one is much romance comedy or [TS]

  the other but I feel like they're still [TS]

  very similar it's unusual to me to like [TS]

  one and not the other without what you [TS]

  get Jeff also i would say probably a few [TS]

  good man but again also and not knowing [TS]

  that it was aaron sorkin that I think [TS]

  for me that getting into the the the [TS]

  knowledge that there was an aaron sorkin [TS]

  would be the late and beloved sports [TS]

  night [TS]

  yes when was the best series one of the [TS]

  best areas in and there one that really [TS]

  had like a strange start because i think [TS]

  that was like the first dramedy think [TS]

  that's when they it was one of the first [TS]

  way that term right it had it had it was [TS]

  set up as a 30-minute sitcom very much [TS]

  like you know formulaic but it was [TS]

  strange because they did they had this [TS]

  whole issue with the laugh track where [TS]

  the first half of the first season has a [TS]

  lap track it gets quieter get why you're [TS]

  in choir and it's not because the show [TS]

  gets less and less funny the show [TS]

  actually gets funnier but it's strange [TS]

  because you get a I feel like that was [TS]

  part of the reason behind why didn't [TS]

  catch on as much because it was on it [TS]

  was unconventional at that point and [TS]

  interestingly with that laugh track it [TS]

  doesn't just get quieter it gets more [TS]

  and more infrequently and spars and so [TS]

  it's a startling when you hear it and [TS]

  with the initially released the DVD [TS]

  series they have the laugh track their [TS]

  fans complaining they never wanted that [TS]

  left right there the first place if you [TS]

  buy the DVD set now you'll get it [TS]

  laugh track if that's ok we have the [TS]

  horrible one with the laugh track yeah i [TS]

  think that one but I went upgrade yeah I [TS]

  don't know the laugh track to me always [TS]

  remind me all the left some really [TS]

  nervous and it sounds like they've [TS]

  suddenly they've laughed luck walk [TS]

  somebody there like laughs damn it left [TS]

  this room love this room doesn't have [TS]

  left I getting that maybe they're gone [TS]

  sure whether or not they're supposed to [TS]

  laugh haha well it also had that [TS]

  definite feeling of somebody not the [TS]

  writers not but not the directors like [TS]

  somebody in a board room somewhere was [TS]

  like well this is this is a comedy so we [TS]

  need to impose this laugh track because [TS]

  i don't think any of the the creator's [TS]

  wanted it that was like like like [TS]

  something from up on my hands anything [TS]

  typical studio decisions have white [TS]

  community rather than me but I said how [TS]

  many 30-minute shows at that point did [TS]

  not have a laugh track i mean you're [TS]

  talking about primes sitcom time but [TS]

  there's something about it that when you [TS]

  watch friends at that [TS]

  I more or Seinfeld and you heard the [TS]

  last track it just you didn't really [TS]

  notice it was there but when you watch [TS]

  sports night for some reason it is glare [TS]

  it's very grading right it was also [TS]

  right you're like I don't know if it was [TS]

  the first but it was you know a very [TS]

  early single-camera comedy single-camera [TS]

  comedy [TS]

  yeah it was you know it felt very [TS]

  different from other television [TS]

  alright we're going now become kind of [TS]

  like the standard in a lot of cases [TS]

  we've got more and more shows that are [TS]

  that single-camera comedy that doesn't [TS]

  have a studio audience doesn't have a [TS]

  laugh track the late great limited 30 [TS]

  rock which just ended and number yet so [TS]

  I I think he kind of pioneered that but [TS]

  in some ways would be television [TS]

  audience wasn't quite ready for that [TS]

  that level of something that was not [TS]

  just about punchline punchline punchline [TS]

  ypc didn't really know how to market it [TS]

  i mean they were putting it very much i [TS]

  remember seeing the original marketing [TS]

  with my knees [TS]

  it's 99 yeah I'm 92 that they also it's [TS]

  in the middle there because there's an [TS]

  episode in the second season with a deal [TS]

  with y2k that's right we got up [TS]

  yes bright yellow you know bright yellow [TS]

  papers and everybody's happy and jumping [TS]

  up in the air they fell prey to the fact [TS]

  that was actually the marketing for all [TS]

  of ABC's programs that year that was [TS]

  there stick and it didn't want were [TS]

  yellow [TS]

  that you know the knock that I here [TS]

  against Aaron Sorkin in general for [TS]

  people who for whatever reason don't [TS]

  like sports night as a good example bad [TS]

  people you're right that the challenge [TS]

  that happens there i think is that on [TS]

  sports night as well on the west wing [TS]

  and every other TV show that he's done [TS]

  these are characters who take their jobs [TS]

  very seriously and on sports let you [TS]

  know that the concedes that they're your [TS]

  seat watching backstage the makings of a [TS]

  SportsCenter style show which too many [TS]

  of us i think is probably not the most [TS]

  important work one can do / is her [TS]

  country but they take it very seriously [TS]

  you know when something goes wrong this [TS]

  is it's it's extremely high personally [TS]

  taking drama for the the characters [TS]

  involved on the show and you know on the [TS]

  west wing when they're so upset and [TS]

  unhappy because you know people are [TS]

  shooting at each other in encouragement [TS]

  understand that's that there's a reason [TS]

  for them to be so upset because you know [TS]

  there's death involved but when i was [TS]

  learning to understand and he [TS]

  accidentally said you understand yeah [TS]

  and then and and sports night when [TS]

  they're really concerned because maybe [TS]

  the game isn't gonna end in time so they [TS]

  have to start their broadcast late [TS]

  the stakes are very high to them and [TS]

  less hi to the audience that i really [TS]

  like to show I love sports night but the [TS]

  people who I've heard complain about [TS]

  that show feel like why are they taking [TS]

  this so seriously why are they so so [TS]

  concerned I think it's a fair and at the [TS]

  same thing happens on studio 60 and and [TS]

  someone in the newsroom right that one [TS]

  yeah a little closer to exact way I know [TS]

  I feel like that is very much true to [TS]

  life though because God knows I mean as [TS]

  technology journalists we've had plenty [TS]

  of times where I has an aaron sorkin a [TS]

  show about us [TS]

  ah [TS]

  will get cancelled after half a season [TS]

  sadly but I mean we have plenty of days [TS]

  when we're running around with our heads [TS]

  cut off being like oh god we've got to [TS]

  get this in or else everything will go [TS]

  down in flames I think a live load of [TS]

  trash people don't yet know about the [TS]

  new I books but it's it feels like life [TS]

  or death at that point and no it's [TS]

  definitely not have not getting shot [TS]

  having been in the room when all of our [TS]

  like why blog coverage crashed it was [TS]

  just like we're sitting area that's an [TS]

  apple presentation like God so I am it [TS]

  is very seriously the people involved [TS]

  with professionals is what they do and [TS]

  anybody makes it more convincingly and i [TS]

  think i was going to take slight [TS]

  exception to your comment about the west [TS]

  wing vs force night because i feel like [TS]

  in later seasons which obviously aren't [TS]

  directly aaron sorkin reading seasons [TS]

  this is where the law comes in which is [TS]

  they think they can make up for the fact [TS]

  that it's you know there are problems by [TS]

  making them these huge dramatic problems [TS]

  like these india and china on the brink [TS]

  of war but it doesn't work because it [TS]

  has no substance behind it there's no [TS]

  subtext or anything it's all just the [TS]

  over-the-top that's really annoying haha [TS]

  hello but that's expected of me off that [TS]

  sorry well I also think that that so [TS]

  some of what sports and I did I mean you [TS]

  know yet that the the the the words are [TS]

  escaping me the topics were sort of you [TS]

  know like like small and contained it [TS]

  behind the show but they also like [TS]

  really tried to push into some other [TS]

  things like I remember some storylines [TS]

  about we weren't there like a drug [TS]

  testing scandal or something that they [TS]

  had to report on and they had to you [TS]

  know like like do we reveal this [TS]

  information or not reveal this [TS]

  information and you know for for [TS]

  something that was a you know a comedy [TS]

  it seemed like he was sort of pushing a [TS]

  agendas or you know pushing thoughts [TS]

  which I'm sure will probably talk about [TS]

  seems to be a short aspect of pushing [TS]

  point of view but it seemed like it was [TS]

  it was trying to push the boundary there [TS]

  even though yeah this is about it a [TS]

  sports show right and then you know [TS]

  trying to get this little episode they [TS]

  deal with a bomb threat [TS]

  someone wants to blow up the building [TS]

  because some radio host makes it and you [TS]

  know insensitive comment I would someone [TS]

  want to kill us [TS]

  well I mean all of his big TV shows have [TS]

  been this is behind the scenes of what [TS]

  this business does right [TS]

  whether it's the west wing or its sports [TS]

  night or two tvs news station or it's a [TS]

  studio it's always this is the [TS]

  nitty-gritty behind-the-scenes the [TS]

  people who do what you see the front of [TS]

  them and and I was less interested in [TS]

  studio 60 because i didn't really care [TS]

  about night clubs but I love sports [TS]

  center and so I found ambassador even [TS]

  though it wasn't sportscenter it was [TS]

  supposed to be right there and I thought [TS]

  that was fascinating because of the [TS]

  topic and i will and i like i like [TS]

  politics policy and politics into the [TS]

  West Wing got to me but I do agree that [TS]

  I think like if you're not into sports [TS]

  center demographic sports night kinda [TS]

  was like why do I care about this [TS]

  between their i8 I don't fall sports [TS]

  almost at all and i'm not really a [TS]

  sports fan I don't watch SportsCenter i [TS]

  love the wild switch your and aaron [TS]

  sorkin finding you'll watch because [TS]

  you're so I didn't even know at the time [TS]

  I mean that was that and west wing which [TS]

  started around the same time I think [TS]

  sports i was slightly earlier and then [TS]

  season when he was doing bullet once per [TS]

  season over web and so I didn't know [TS]

  until I start watching both of these [TS]

  with this was the same guy [TS]

  it was for me was the characters in the [TS]

  writing and as someone especially [TS]

  someone who's a writer I just I really [TS]

  admire his dialogue is great and pacing [TS]

  he's got great you know [TS]

  masterful dialogue these various witty [TS]

  banter things about the infuriating [TS]

  thing to me about Aaron Sorkin's talent [TS]

  since i don't have it is you know he [TS]

  it's not [TS]

  first of all I think it's impressive [TS]

  that he can whether it's accurate [TS]

  accurately depicted or not he makes it [TS]

  feel like he knows exactly what it's [TS]

  like backstage and sports center or by [TS]

  the scenes in the white house or in a [TS]

  newsroom like it feels like he's done [TS]

  his research with the possible exception [TS]

  of studio 60 and then when you later on [TS]

  that it's not just his characters [TS]

  dialogue his character soft like many of [TS]

  us wish we were able to speak [TS]

  extemporaneously and oftentimes can take [TS]

  out some of the believability i don't [TS]

  think most people have as many [TS]

  statistics and factories that their [TS]

  instant recall as the characters are [TS]

  sort of show but I enjoy that [TS]

  fictionalization anyway but it's the way [TS]

  he crafted his storytelling that I find [TS]

  very impressive you look at especially [TS]

  you know you can tell when Sorkin stops [TS]

  reading The West Wing when he leaves the [TS]

  show [TS]

  everybody's IQ on that show drops by [TS]

  about 50 points in the drama becomes [TS]

  totally different than what well because [TS]

  they make it about [TS]

  thank you don't want drama is conflict [TS]

  right so we need to make everybody angry [TS]

  at each other right and that you'll [TS]

  notice that just joshin related because [TS]

  the total jerk people just yelling at [TS]

  each other all want Leo was always angry [TS]

  ya know if there's never any common [TS]

  ground or any reconciliation part of it [TS]

  that sort of makes you feel like oh well [TS]

  these guys at the end of the day are [TS]

  still friends even if they're going [TS]

  through this tough spot right now but [TS]

  the way he crashed his actual story [TS]

  telling where there's so many times when [TS]

  he the the narrative marks about with [TS]

  time even on the show like the Western [TS]

  sportswear you'll see the story told [TS]

  slightly out of order or you'll see the [TS]

  same part of the storytelling from two [TS]

  perspectives the the only writer i think [TS]

  can achieve that on his level is is [TS]

  Matthew leader with madmen who [TS]

  occasionally does some of the same [TS]

  trillion you get he is of course I mean [TS]

  we often see the standard construction [TS]

  of a TV show where you've got you know [TS]

  you're a plot which is your main thing [TS]

  going on you got a subplot sometimes [TS]

  they tied together but I think in circus [TS]

  shows that they almost always end up in [TS]

  some way interleaving in a way that you [TS]

  don't expect like Seinfeld [TS]

  just like Seinfeld it's been pretty much [TS]

  the same it's like the Jerry Seinfeld [TS]

  president united states that's the [TS]

  darkest timeline Dan but now do you I [TS]

  mean I know exactly what my Chiefs or [TS]

  complaint is but I i I'm curious since [TS]

  it's clearly that this is becoming a [TS]

  sort of lovin [TS]

  what are our issues with sort of what [TS]

  don't you like so i'll say that won the [TS]

  West Wing was out i was at when I first [TS]

  came out I was not in technology was [TS]

  actually public policy analyst and to [TS]

  see a TV show where they were smart [TS]

  people talking about policy and people [TS]

  knew what they were talking about it was [TS]

  like this is awesome but I went back and [TS]

  I've been what are you watching it and [TS]

  I'm like man this is preachy [TS]

  I mean wow I still love the west wing I [TS]

  think it's one of the best TV shows but [TS]

  it's very preachy and not not that it's [TS]

  a bad way or are in a bad way or a bad [TS]

  thing but it's very like she thinks [TS]

  everybody just doesn't get it and he [TS]

  wants to teach them and I think that [TS]

  that's one of his flaws sometimes it [TS]

  goes a little too overboard at trying to [TS]

  say you don't know this you need to know [TS]

  this and I'm gonna tell you for the next [TS]

  hour and I'm and so I think that great a [TS]

  lot of people i think that's one other [TS]

  thing that some people don't like Sorkin [TS]

  poor is that sort of storytelling i [TS]

  think that that his his construction is [TS]

  it's sort of a memorable and frustrating [TS]

  sometimes because you'll have things [TS]

  where you know you definitely have [TS]

  things that they're building up to [TS]

  something and then which is good and it [TS]

  was it like really good technique but [TS]

  then you get to that something and you [TS]

  realize that oh this is basically like [TS]

  like the thing that I wish that I had [TS]

  said when someone says something mean to [TS]

  me and they're like really like that [TS]

  three hours later out like this is what [TS]

  I would have said if i was there goes [TS]

  your text or called when the jerk store [TS]

  that's how I felt [TS]

  hey go I i actually did not watch [TS]

  seinfeld sorry this isn't about side [TS]

  flex [TS]

  I've seen happy to get your ex is all [TS]

  about tvs are absolutely right because [TS]

  that's what i was thinking about when we [TS]

  first said we were gonna talk about [TS]

  Aaron Sorkin here i thought well that's [TS]

  the best way for me to describe his [TS]

  dialogue is that sort of the list of [TS]

  read escalade which is the I think [TS]

  translate the staircase with which is [TS]

  like when you're on your way out this [TS]

  you think of the things you should have [TS]

  said yeah and he does a great job of [TS]

  channeling that but yeah it is sometimes [TS]

  you're like nobody actually talks like [TS]

  that very few people think of all that [TS]

  on the spot when you really need it to [TS]

  really deliver that that punch of and [TS]

  I'm rarely is it to people engaged in a [TS]

  single conversation both seem to be [TS]

  managing to pull it out this but at the [TS]

  same time it's good TV great TV it is i [TS]

  feel like it makes you feel like you [TS]

  have the power to actually talk like [TS]

  that in real life at least watching this [TS]

  and also growing up I'd be like alright [TS]

  if I just indoctrinate myself into [TS]

  enough Amy sherman-palladino and aaron [TS]

  sorkin i will eventually be able to talk [TS]

  really quickly and Willie and apparently [TS]

  no no not so much but when you [TS]

  occasionally get that moment it's like [TS]

  oh yes yes I could totally be on a show [TS]

  for five seconds so it's aspirational TV [TS]

  that's very inspirational wit I was [TS]

  gonna say that my to address lexus point [TS]

  about laws i think and it sort of ties [TS]

  into what I think Dan was saying the [TS]

  idealism aspect of it which again I [TS]

  really admire but he kind of at times [TS]

  converge towards the naivete I mean and [TS]

  that's not quite the right thing because [TS]

  I think he's a smart guy and he knows [TS]

  what the problems are [TS]

  but the idea that good things will just [TS]

  sort of float to the top like there is [TS]

  sort of a meritocracy somehow and that [TS]

  just by being really pure and [TS]

  well-intentioned the truthful shine [TS]

  hours which is how I think we don't like [TS]

  it to be but what did you think was [TS]

  remarkable with the west wing in [TS]

  particular my parents make rush limbaugh [TS]

  look liberal and they love the west wing [TS]

  despite you know it it's clear the [TS]

  disagreement with their political [TS]

  perspectives and I think what the way he [TS]

  can pull that off is that he's he's [TS]

  committed to it you know he doesn't [TS]

  shower convicted he has a viewpoint that [TS]

  he wants to express it [TS]

  his characters are all going to be these [TS]

  idealistic people [TS]

  and you know what was nice as that I [TS]

  found at least Arnold Vinick comes it [TS]

  that you know season six and seven and [TS]

  he's not historical character as a [TS]

  Republican that the Liberals who share [TS]

  the liberal philosophy is expressed on [TS]

  the show can appreciate and like to but [TS]

  not every Republican character on the [TS]

  sorgan years either was one he would [TS]

  vilify know he he took care to make sure [TS]

  that even when he had his viewpoint that [TS]

  he wasn't there as they hired a man is [TS]

  in the handout on it [TS]

  rabbi Marc person yeah but what what [TS]

  infuriates me with aaron sorkin is his [TS]

  seeming embrace of the fact that he [TS]

  understands absolutely nothing about [TS]

  technology we've been hearing this from [TS]

  lex for three days now I I'm furious [TS]

  about it i have never stops being [TS]

  furious about it likes you mean you've [TS]

  never accidentally sent an email to an [TS]

  entire company when you only meant to [TS]

  send it to one person that's on the [TS]

  newsroom and it's it drives the whole [TS]

  plot line of an episode I mean clearly [TS]

  also on the west wing Josh Lyman hates [TS]

  bloggers in the multiple show in modern [TS]

  America rot down the entire US [TS]

  government email system by 14 spam right [TS]

  for the spam messages about muffins [TS]

  right about the calorie content of [TS]

  muffins there was well I love this one [TS]

  episode of the west wing when you re [TS]

  watching you just can't believe they're [TS]

  in the situation room so it's you know [TS]

  theoretically that you know the the [TS]

  tech-savvy estate of the texts Abby [TS]

  should be in this room they're using all [TS]

  sorts of fancy technology to do what [TS]

  they do and so they're showing the [TS]

  president is photographing why is it so [TS]

  blurry why is it why is this picture so [TS]

  blurry [TS]

  well it was emailed we think using a [TS]

  modem [TS]

  and III don't know what that's supposed [TS]

  to mean [TS]

  but it's I mean he hates bloggers he [TS]

  hates the internet he hates the web [TS]

  he doesn't understand how email works he [TS]

  has this whole contrived plot line on on [TS]

  the newsroom where you know i-i've you [TS]

  have to use a semicolon if you want to [TS]

  send an email to everybody on this 2f [TS]

  don't use a semicolon is going to one [TS]

  person and of course he screws it up and [TS]

  we're sending this email to the entire [TS]

  staff and it's embarrassing which is we [TS]

  just said because you get the feeling [TS]

  that if he were you know had people that [TS]

  would you know consult on him and really [TS]

  that he would listen to that he would [TS]

  really be able to write a great story [TS]

  about technology and in fact of course [TS]

  he has only not only written to movie [TS]

  the social network which looks feels and [TS]

  technology but he's also writing the [TS]

  biopic of steve jobs that is not the one [TS]

  with ashton kutcher which is based on i [TS]

  believe the loosely based on the walter [TS]

  isaacson book but also it's sort of his [TS]

  phone supposedly divided up into three [TS]

  scenes leading up to product announced [TS]

  apple product and i'm going to be three [TS]

  real-time moments before he goes on [TS]

  stage at various apple keynote for the [TS]

  is the original mac yes the ipod and [TS]

  iphone is the iphone is I think it's the [TS]

  iphone right let's go to believe [TS]

  everything the iphone but which which is [TS]

  I mean and you can kind of get away with [TS]

  that by saying that well apple stuff [TS]

  isn't always about the midi gritty parts [TS]

  of technology there's more to it than [TS]

  that I think that's part of the reason [TS]

  that in my mind I liked the social [TS]

  network [TS]

  I think it succeeded in telling me a [TS]

  story that i didn't think i was [TS]

  necessarily interested in hearing when i [TS]

  first went into it and yet i found it [TS]

  compelling and it's not necessarily all [TS]

  about programming I mean that plays a [TS]

  part in it but it doesn't it doesn't [TS]

  really matter [TS]

  that's not a thing that matters in the [TS]

  grants give it a lot but it you're right [TS]

  that he does have a weakness that [TS]

  doesn't do you have any interested in [TS]

  having interest in learning about it [TS]

  more [TS]

  I don't know that that you know [TS]

  obviously I don't think anyone say that [TS]

  undermines the rest of his guru as it [TS]

  were but it is definitely flawed is [TS]

  ready [TS]

  no I think the weird thing is that he [TS]

  seems perfectly confident to talk about [TS]

  technology fits in [TS]

  if the topic itself at hand is [TS]

  technology for instance in the shelter [TS]

  network and I have no doubt that the [TS]

  Steve Jobs movie will be well written [TS]

  and well represented but when it when he [TS]

  gets the option to use technology at the [TS]

  butt of his joke he will gladly take it [TS]

  up i mean he he uses a similar scene [TS]

  like that in every single one of his [TS]

  shows sometimes multiple times to great [TS]

  effect [TS]

  yeah i think this Lincoln Sports Network [TS]

  Casey your dad's gonna throw a computer [TS]

  out the window or something like that [TS]

  something like that yes and it's just so [TS]

  I one of the things that struck me also [TS]

  this might be any sort of flopping over [TS]

  here again we're not trying to be came [TS]

  not to bury aaron sorkin months largely [TS]

  to praise him i was a big love in a [TS]

  minute ago and now and now it's all gone [TS]

  that shirt you're being now walked in [TS]

  right now we would kick now look at the [TS]

  the he gets knocked for reusing stuff a [TS]

  lot which I noticed been rewatching the [TS]

  west wing because there's the episode in [TS]

  season 7 where Arnie Vinick and Matt [TS]

  Santos who are the contestants for the [TS]

  presidency are talking about having a [TS]

  debate and they go off on this whole [TS]

  thing about we need to have a real [TS]

  debate not something we're limited just [TS]

  30-second sound bites and rebuttals and [TS]

  all this and that's brought again in the [TS]

  newsroom at the end of the newsroom [TS]

  system this season they try to convince [TS]

  the the republican national convention [TS]

  that we want to have a real debate where [TS]

  the candidates are forced to answer [TS]

  questions now that's not necessarily [TS]

  repeating himself that he says he didn't [TS]

  write that season of The West Wing but i [TS]

  want to point that out in front of [TS]

  everyone that's a fair point [TS]

  well and if you sure everybody up here [TS]

  seated but then there's a clip out there [TS]

  were somebody did a bunch of cuts where [TS]

  Aaron Sorkin almost word for word we use [TS]

  a whole lot of his stuff it's nine [TS]

  minutes worth of cuts in fact i will [TS]

  point out like that in fact in the [TS]

  season he did right where he goes up [TS]

  against partly goes up against James [TS]

  Brolin yes i think that the Vinick [TS]

  sandals thing is a call back to bad [TS]

  agree two hundred percent that do you [TS]

  know by the way to soften the one [TS]

  episode of the west wing in which Sorkin [TS]

  himself appears [TS]

  for example the west wing he's in here [TS]

  since social network he's in the series [TS]

  finale of The West Wing when Santos is [TS]

  on the inauguration platform and there's [TS]

  a bunch of dignitaries there Mac sitting [TS]

  there on the stage as if he's some [TS]

  important analytical here appears in the [TS]

  social network as a ad exec yes briefly [TS]

  and he appeared actually did quite a [TS]

  memorable turn on one of his own shows [TS]

  but on entourage appears as himself in [TS]

  several episodes as a somewhat per [TS]

  article version of himself [TS]

  what we believe is a problem running [TS]

  with the wall and with drugs and stuff [TS]

  like that i have mentioned 30 rock but [TS]

  he also I he appears on 30 rock as I [TS]

  believe himself and yes in a walk and [TS]

  talk that's a hilarious [TS]

  he has a good sense of humor about [TS]

  himself in some aspects it's he's ok [TS]

  with you were when it's in parodying [TS]

  himself but he seems to be very very [TS]

  scared of the bloggers in the you know [TS]

  the folks even came [TS]

  yeah if he doesn't get a say that it's [TS]

  that it's not funny [TS]

  we'll be going back to the into the [TS]

  issues of like you know like not [TS]

  fact-checking the technology or [TS]

  something [TS]

  I think it also ties in especially [TS]

  someone as earlier stuff where is it was [TS]

  pretty clear like it like wasn't he also [TS]

  the showrunner 44 West weekend sports [TS]

  night [TS]

  I'm so like like he was the ultimate [TS]

  authority and I think they're sometimes [TS]

  when he didn't really have people there [TS]

  to say you know know or you know maybe [TS]

  we should have someone look over this [TS]

  and so you have the issue of and I think [TS]

  this also comes into the the preaching [TS]

  this a little bit we're like this is [TS]

  aaron sorkin show its gonna be like this [TS]

  and you don't have enough input to kind [TS]

  of whatever those things lee famously [TS]

  overruled I mean he rewrote i think [TS]

  almost every episode of the west wing [TS]

  that he was involved in [TS]

  yeah because he took that final [TS]

  executive sort of pass and said yeah I'm [TS]

  going to basically make sure that was [TS]

  all of the snob while ago sorry [TS]

  well I remember at one point he was [TS]

  doing both sports night and west wing [TS]

  like he was writing all the scripts for [TS]

  both i mean that's that's insane [TS]

  so I think he's also doing a lot of [TS]

  cocaine too so he was that affected it [TS]

  what I like to look at is the the fun [TS]

  game to play is who is the sorgan [TS]

  facsimile character in Sorkin's writing [TS]

  in The West Wing i decided i think it's [TS]

  everybody is like Josh right and i think [TS]

  that in sports [TS]

  I think it's both Casey and Damned and [TS]

  then when you get to really get the [TS]

  studio 60 we have Matthew Perry's [TS]

  character Matt Albie he's clearly he the [TS]

  the amazing thing about Matt Albie who [TS]

  writes this saturday lifestyle shows [TS]

  that he writes every episode himself he [TS]

  lays off the writers because they're not [TS]

  good enough so he's gonna read [TS]

  everyone's health and how does he do [TS]

  that how does he work this magic [TS]

  how can we accomplish such great writing [TS]

  and it's it's really i mean i really [TS]

  like Aaron Sorkin I want to be clear but [TS]

  I think it's kind of embarrassing when [TS]

  you write the character who's clearly [TS]

  meant to be you and he is just so [TS]

  perfect so you thought it was Josh in [TS]

  the West Wing i would have said maybe [TS]

  Josh but also Sam you know perfection is [TS]

  writer always wanted to get all the [TS]

  facts in their wants to educate people [TS]

  once touted smart people wants to have [TS]

  witnessed my love i think it's all these [TS]

  is right because Toby to because we take [TS]

  it all so seriously is like he throws [TS]

  away his hairy or over again he wants to [TS]

  be Sam but he's really Josh we all want [TS]

  to be safe I think we all know that he's [TS]

  John Hoynes clearly top i think it's [TS]

  funny and particularly in the case of [TS]

  West Wing that that that it has a [TS]

  phenomenon took on such a life of itself [TS]

  I mean even even after he left I think [TS]

  you know we all would agree that the [TS]

  show did suffer sort of a precipitous to [TS]

  climb in the next season and is a season [TS]

  and a half I think towards the end of [TS]

  season six it starts to pick up and I [TS]

  think season 7 is actually pretty good [TS]

  though it's not as good as [TS]

  when he was just a different show it is [TS]

  different it's infected two shows is the [TS]

  campaign and the homefront the home from [TS]

  stuff is really boring for the most part [TS]

  the campaign is much better stow which [TS]

  is just goes to show you that the part [TS]

  they got away from what he was doing the [TS]

  more they were able to do their own [TS]

  thing and do that well rather than just [TS]

  trying to do a bad impression of aaron [TS]

  sorkin but it's funny to me that it took [TS]

  on a life of its own [TS]

  because we're still here in that you [TS]

  know you look at the there's Twitter [TS]

  accounts for all the West when [TS]

  characters including these like really [TS]

  really minor characters who only show up [TS]

  in a couple episodes like I think like [TS]

  how whole works characters like an [TS]

  undersecretary of state has a twitter a [TS]

  Catholic and for me it was the during [TS]

  the election they got a whole bunch of [TS]

  the cast back together to do a sort of a [TS]

  nonpartisan ad for a judge election who [TS]

  is mary mccormack who played Kate Harper [TS]

  for anti guess was running sister [TS]

  Michigan your sister's sister [TS]

  ok but what was impressively obviously [TS]

  they want to make them this whole thing [TS]

  and it basically reads just like a west [TS]

  wing episode even though they don't you [TS]

  know that you know really acknowledge [TS]

  that back anywhere and it always was one [TS]

  of those things that makes me think you [TS]

  know don't you want to kind of imagine [TS]

  that they just they get together [TS]

  sometimes and play west wing like a [TS]

  really my head that's you know I have [TS]

  the same thing with firefly two words [TS]

  like sometimes they just hang out like [TS]

  you know pretend they're still on a [TS]

  spaceship right but of course they had a [TS]

  feeling that some of the other sort of [TS]

  movies we didn't talk about you like [TS]

  Moneyball really likes money when i read [TS]

  the book Moneyball and then saw the [TS]

  movie I don't think circuit wrote the [TS]

  book [TS]

  I you know I like Michael I mean I'm I [TS]

  think I like baseball more than you to [TS]

  sew and i actually was familiar with [TS]

  some of the stuff going into it it's [TS]

  it's a weirdly I think we talked about [TS]

  this [TS]

  it's a weirdly structured movie as is i [TS]

  would argue social network is also a [TS]

  very particularly structured movie [TS]

  well biopics in general on the people [TS]

  are still living [TS]

  yeah which is the tricky part was saying [TS]

  I was compared to do tonight it's like [TS]

  Lincoln like okay dies at the end like [TS]

  the story's over [TS]

  he was you know mark mark zuckerberg [TS]

  spoiler until it comes back in hunts [TS]

  vampires [TS]

  you know I i think that the the issue i [TS]

  had with the social network i thought it [TS]

  was a good movie but it feels like it [TS]

  never really get started there's you [TS]

  know there's enjoyable scenes they [TS]

  connect well as well plotted i guess but [TS]

  it just feels like he and when you watch [TS]

  this organ scripted thing you're waiting [TS]

  for it was gonna get really heated up [TS]

  and intense and it doesn't it's I mean [TS]

  the he does a nice job I think of [TS]

  depicting those characters and I think [TS]

  that not michael cera does a really good [TS]

  job in the movie but and I just I feel [TS]

  like you're just constantly waiting for [TS]

  it to kick into high gear and it doesn't [TS]

  I mean it's tepid in places and it's [TS]

  definitely probably the calmest Sorkin [TS]

  movie that I've ever watched but a lot [TS]

  of it does take place sitting so there's [TS]

  that every yeah there's a lot of time a [TS]

  XXX I mean in reality circles best [TS]

  opportunity is when he has two [TS]

  characters bouncing off of each other [TS]

  one on wasn't enough walking there was [TS]

  not enough 142 meeting and exhausted [TS]

  walking that's gross working today [TS]

  I mean there's there's some of the [TS]

  deposition stuff that's really biting [TS]

  and really sparkling like oh yeah that's [TS]

  that's the aaron sorkin that I know and [TS]

  love at the same time I really enjoyed [TS]

  the film uh but it's i agree with you [TS]

  that it's not necessarily representative [TS]

  of what an aaron sorkin movie can be [TS]

  that actually brings up the question of [TS]

  like should an aaron sorkin movie be an [TS]

  aaron sorkin movie I mean if its parents [TS]

  like joint if you will [TS]

  no I will not but oh ok well I'm you [TS]

  know like like it if we go to a movie [TS]

  and it doesn't have like you know some [TS]

  real big whitney lead-up and and [TS]

  something like that like is that a [TS]

  downer or does that mean that he's [TS]

  actually getting better i mean i think [TS]

  part of it is he's been so consistent [TS]

  with the email he sort of like his [TS]

  Sorkin repertory players and his Sorkin [TS]

  repertory plot themes because he had so [TS]

  consistently return to the same well you [TS]

  know he's gonna cast Josh Malina just [TS]

  about everything and he's going to have [TS]

  high stakes in many things or people are [TS]

  going to treat their things like the [TS]

  high-stakes whether norms think they are [TS]

  not and I think that because he's going [TS]

  to that well sometimes so many times and [TS]

  done it quite a definitely in ways that [TS]

  entertain us [TS]

  yes I wanted to keep doing those things [TS]

  that's what i want to see when i go to [TS]

  sort of movie I don't want to see in a [TS]

  Quentin Tarantino movie or Steven [TS]

  Spielberg movie want to go to see it's [TS]

  working i want to feel like arizona and [TS]

  i was in some ways I know his background [TS]

  comes from theater and he started in [TS]

  movies but I feel like he does a better [TS]

  job with the TV stuff where he has a [TS]

  larger canvas and there is this ability [TS]

  to do continuity and sort of string [TS]

  things out plot arcs to develop over the [TS]

  course of the season as opposed to [TS]

  having a cram it in a couple hours I to [TS]

  me that seems a better mix tape for him [TS]

  like you know he can yeah he's a French [TS]

  word therefore it [TS]

  yeah I just feel like that's I've seen [TS]

  you know most of his later movies also [TS]

  charlie wilson's war which is has again [TS]

  enjoyable movie moments but it's it is [TS]

  kind of strung together strangely it [TS]

  doesn't necessarily feel like oh my god [TS]

  that's a great movie in one that i want [TS]

  to keep you know watch over and over [TS]

  again I thought once in a kind of faded [TS]

  memory but I know his shows all go back [TS]

  to and revisit time after time except [TS]

  studio 6a can get back everyone you know [TS]

  i rewatch studio 69 is introducing i do [TS]

  defense did musics all enemies foreign [TS]

  and domestic yes you know what there's a [TS]

  lot of it that certain did not get right [TS]

  in terms of how backstage actually runs [TS]

  but that said I think there are a lot of [TS]

  great moments in that and also i love [TS]

  bradley whitford i love seeing him on [TS]

  stage and I think Danny Tripp is one of [TS]

  his best circuit like I love Josh but I [TS]

  almost think i prefer Danny trip to John [TS]

  I can't believe this is happening right [TS]

  now yeah I character that show was was [TS]

  who's the kids in the hall bet who shows [TS]

  up in mark McKinney yes mark McKinney [TS]

  shows up as the writer the really really [TS]

  depressed right now because my great [TS]

  character in that show [TS]

  that's a great example of how sore can [TS]

  you can use multiple episodes to build [TS]

  up a character I mean when they get into [TS]

  character sit down and have a [TS]

  conversation in a circus show [TS]

  it's not there never talking about the [TS]

  topic at hand [TS]

  it's always circuitous in there they end [TS]

  up talking about something completely [TS]

  different and it's kind of hard to do [TS]

  that in a film you know you can't you [TS]

  can't really talk around the subject for [TS]

  two hours unless you're Steven Spielberg [TS]

  in your writing Lincoln because Lincoln [TS]

  you know has the you have the background [TS]

  to have him give these big parking [TS]

  speeches and bon mot said they didn't [TS]

  have to tell the story because we all [TS]

  knew it yeah exactly [TS]

  but when you're trying to do a biopic [TS]

  when you're trying to do something like [TS]

  that so I mean it will be really really [TS]

  interesting to see if he can tackle [TS]

  something like the Steve Jobs move for [TS]

  instance I almost like the idea of doing [TS]

  a really long scenes we've seen what [TS]

  happens when circuit short scenes in a [TS]

  movie where he has to do a lot of setup [TS]

  and as you don't get a lot of [TS]

  back-and-forth I think my objection to I [TS]

  like studio 60 I don't love it i think [TS]

  my objection is that he first of all I [TS]

  don't think he really got forgets how to [TS]

  write sketch-comedy I know you and I [TS]

  have disagreed about this but some of [TS]

  the sketches that supposed to be the [TS]

  most hilarious are really really not [TS]

  know I agree with you that doesn't mean [TS]

  it's not a funny show and I think it's [TS]

  impossible to go out and say you know [TS]

  this is the show that is the funniest [TS]

  show that everybody loves like that kind [TS]

  of build up you just write your story so [TS]

  that then so I feel like he he gets [TS]

  afraid very early on in the scripting of [TS]

  that show and moves away from what it [TS]

  set out to be and then you get the very [TS]

  broad characters John Goodman character [TS]

  jonathan is so great on the west wing [TS]

  and then just so brought in bizarre as [TS]

  that judge on the on the studio 60 and [TS]

  then he sort of gets a little bit [TS]

  self-referential we're talking about [TS]

  we've got a boost ratings we should do [TS]

  things like have pregnancies and have [TS]

  people get locked you know it we should [TS]

  do you know where they locked in a room [TS]

  and then hey Amanda piece character gets [TS]

  pregnant and then they're locked on the [TS]

  roof in that same episode we're talking [TS]

  about it gets a little bit less bizarre [TS]

  preferential yeah i mean i do think and [TS]

  I think that [TS]

  some of that the newsroom suffers from [TS]

  also i want to talk about the news right [TS]

  yeah i know that you don't like the news [TS]

  i actually you like it i think it took a [TS]

  while i think it took a while to develop [TS]

  and get to a place where I really liked [TS]

  it and was in favor of the characters [TS]

  because there are so many characters I [TS]

  cho who do you start off as unlikable um [TS]

  and I kind of it as the season [TS]

  progressed I found that I liked [TS]

  will the jeff daniels character more and [TS]

  more [TS]

  he reminds me and in the later episodes [TS]

  he starts to remind me more of like Toby [TS]

  the wedding or he's just he's cranky but [TS]

  he's like underneath it's because he's [TS]

  so frustrated with the back that all [TS]

  this stuff has never worked out so I [TS]

  like the newsroom but i think it i don't [TS]

  like the women on the newsroom I think [TS]

  they're I i think that circuit has been [TS]

  attacked someone fairly simple as for [TS]

  not writing women well and I think that [TS]

  is a fair critique on the newsroom I do [TS]

  want to say that when you spend Wilson [TS]

  will McAvoy I don't think there's a [TS]

  single and i challenge anyone to find me [TS]

  I don't think there's a single rider out [TS]

  there with better character naming shops [TS]

  in Arizona will McAvoy Toby Ziegler exam [TS]

  seaboard nationalized he does do a good [TS]

  job Josiah Bartlet come on down [TS]

  they feel very real at the same time [TS]

  very elevated Beatrice yeah [TS]

  Zuckerberg who would have thought yeah [TS]

  Zuckerberg come on [TS]

  yes circuited women was something that I [TS]

  kind of wanted to talk about but I'm [TS]

  always wary about it because I do feel [TS]

  that circle gets an unjust rep for the [TS]

  amount of oh he doesn't treat women he [TS]

  doesn't write women while he writes them [TS]

  as crazy but not manic pixie dream real [TS]

  crazy just crazy out of their mind and [TS]

  there are some characters i agree with [TS]

  but this witness's character on newsroom [TS]

  her mom which one [TS]

  la Mer Mac Mac yeah alright so Mackenzie [TS]

  is a little bit crazy but at the same [TS]

  time someone who clearly has PTSD who's [TS]

  been in overseas for the last three four [TS]

  years it is coming back and adjusting to [TS]

  real like there's a lot about her [TS]

  character that rings true and I think [TS]

  she's overwritten at parts but at the [TS]

  same time i get i get really frustrated [TS]

  reading articles online that's like as a [TS]

  woman you should feel ashamed of the way [TS]

  that Aaron Sorkin rights women [TS]

  and I'm like you know I last there well [TS]

  no I mean I i have my problems away with [TS]

  wearing certain television yeah exactly [TS]

  you know I mean I'm not saying that [TS]

  Aaron Sorkin deserves a gold star and a [TS]

  10 out of 10 on the way he portrays [TS]

  women but he certainly doesn't a whole [TS]

  lot better and a whole lot more [TS]

  realistically been a lot of other [TS]

  writers too and I and I i hate to do [TS]

  this but we are actually running up [TS]

  against hard time limit right now we're [TS]

  so used to having an hour and a half to [TS]

  two hours to talk about the subject to [TS]

  death and then have recently 25 minute [TS]

  time slot so I'm asking anyone will [TS]

  leave us with a favorite Sorkin wine or [TS]

  moment [TS]

  dam breaks get one no no I hate yeah [TS]

  you're going to spot on to yeah yeah i [TS]

  can only carry on a tradition i need to [TS]

  do some cleaning [TS]

  I i worked with josh Molina's sister [TS]

  that there has to be some glaring in [TS]

  everything that's been comfortable party [TS]

  started flying over perhaps we should [TS]

  explain going to the assembled audience [TS]

  I don't think we've got a child sorry we [TS]

  don't have time we go to the [TS]

  incomparable com there's a there's a 127 [TS]

  episode archive in which you were [TS]

  talking to him about the origins of [TS]

  blending and many another thing when [TS]

  freshman has been and knows everybody [TS]

  so um I i have about 250 favorite west [TS]

  wing episodes but the one that came to [TS]

  mind when you raise this question here [TS]

  is the scene where Jed Bartlet talks [TS]

  down the doctor laura style radio host [TS]

  who doesnt sit he goes through her whole [TS]

  religious opposition to you is a wedding [TS]

  at the radio correspond right you know [TS]

  white house right and he doesn't stand [TS]

  the light at the end of it at the end of [TS]

  this teardown we talked about you know [TS]

  should I stone my wife because she [TS]

  worked on the Sabbath whatever else is [TS]

  in this building where the president [TS]

  stands nobody sits and then she slowly [TS]

  ashamedly has to stand up gotta just [TS]

  love that I could watch that over and [TS]

  over again when you got a favorite at [TS]

  every single moment in sports night I [TS]

  really i love i love a lot of sports [TS]

  night it is my favorite go to show that [TS]

  i just put in so i don't know i was [TS]

  Natalie in Jeremy I [TS]

  steal my favorite my favorite sports [TS]

  night moment which I think of a lot as a [TS]

  writer which is an episode where Dan [TS]

  decided like has writer's block and [TS]

  there's a sexual cases it's not that bad [TS]

  let me see what you got the Flyers play [TS]

  but yeah the temples tonight in a hockey [TS]

  game and they 1423 yeah that fascinates [TS]

  for me as a writer because i have days [TS]

  like that anyway we're going to wrap up [TS]

  here i'd like to thank my panel serenity [TS]

  Caldwell Lex Friedman jeff carlson and [TS]

  Dan breaks this has been being [TS]

  comfortable thanks for coming by and [TS]

  we'll see it next week s [TS]

  I [TS]