The Accidental Tech Podcast

266: Text Adventure Mode


  source of excitement for you like like

  what like when I kind of fell out of

  love with BMW that was easy for me

  because now I'm now I'm a big fan of

  Tesla and so like it just kind of got

  replaced the reason the Apple stuff bugs

  me so much is that like I haven't

  replaced that yet in my life and I don't

  really know what will replace it

  replaced it with video games yeah you

  love video games now more than you have

  in a long time that's replacing your

  Apple of I mean I love yeah I love a few

  video games I would hardly call it like

  a cat you just said that this which is

  like the best gaming thing you've had

  since like your childhood yes you know

  Sega so I think that's that's pretty

  high praise and the grand scheme of

  things that you have loved in your life

  and that video games may say if the next

  Nintendo thing is like that doesn't

  appeal to you or doesn't have good games

  and then you'll be all excited about

  your new Jaguar ipace I would probably

  like no matter how good or appealing it

  was I don't think I would ever actually

  buy a car from that brand because I just

  never want to have to say it to people

  you know you don't have to say Jaguar

  you can just say Jaguar you can say

  Jaguar like Steve Jobs oh god no I mean

  it but the problem is like no matter at

  first of all it's kind of like like a

  brand right no it's I mean they both are

  to some degree like it is it is it is

  snootier sounding but I think if you had

  to picture the kind of person who drives

  a Jaguar and the kind of person who

  drives a BMW and you're gonna sign

  you're gonna put a label underneath one

  of them it's definitely going either

  brand if you if somebody asks you like

  out like it out loud in a roomful of

  other people who are being kind of quiet

  hey what brand is your car like if you

  have a BMW you you want to say that a

  little bit quietly if I had a Jag I'd be

  I'd like I would just be like I don't

  have a car like I think the Jaguar

  product of managers you know marketing

  managers would love to hear you say that

  because that's the image they want they

  want it to be like snooty and

  highfalutin but realistically speaking

  these days I don't think it is I think

  jag would just love to be included in

  the same buying decision it's Lexus let

  alone BMW Mercedes oh yeah they're

  totally irrelevant but the other factor

  is like I just don't want to hear


  me how to pronounce it well then never

  get a Porsche either I was about I was

  thinking the same thing I said I'm like

  you know yeah that would also apply to

  that brand which I'm also not even try

  to say here because I'm not gonna say it

  right now I don't care

  it's anyway I don't want a I don't want

  a stinger but yeah I think you hit the

  nail on the head Marco about part of the

  reason why I'm bummed about BMW not

  really revving my engine anymore is that

  I haven't figured out what's replaced

  replacing it like there's a part of me

  that's enthusiastic about getting a

  Wrangler and I'm not trying to open that

  can of worms but I I don't know that

  that's really gonna replace that love

  because there was a stretch of time

  that every time I got in my car I was

  just thrilled and excited to be sitting

  in that chair and now it's it's not an

  appliance but it's closer to an

  appliance than then something that gives

  me pleasure and that's really

  unfortunate and I don't think I don't

  think I would view a Jeep in quite the

  same way as I did the BMW circa 2013

  that just bums me out like I wish I had

  something to replace that that kind of

  joy in my life and and and you know

  maybe I will but not to maybe it'll be

  your family

  nah no what can replace this joy says

  the person who just had a new child come

  on I gotta make me sound like such a

  jerk speaking of which like back in

  build and analyze I forget like when in

  the series it was but sometime during

  build and analyze I was talking back

  then about like you know possibly that

  was when I was like waffling over like

  what car to get and like after that

  after the first BMW I was what think

  about something fast and and Dan was

  talking about how like he used to care

  about fast cars and now he just got him

  he just got minivans and he was totally

  fun and he just kind of stopped caring

  about driving fast that's a lie because

  he eventually got like an Audi yeah

  there was an Audi so but but like but

  that's that like that sounded to me like

  it like that would never happen to me I

  could not fathom that that ever happened

  to me I would always care you know as

  much as I did then and I did care for a

  while like I went through some nice

  cars and my current car is fast but I I

  really do feel myself carrying a lot

  less over time like and like I'm not

  really like you know like taking that

  taking a little like a little turn

  that's down at the bottom of my street

  where I can kick it out a little bit

  when there's leaves down like I don't do

  that anymore like there's certain like

  you know highway ramp so I could go

  super fast before and I just kind of

  don't do that anymore either like I have

  even just like over the last like year

  I've felt myself like really chilling

  out a lot in that way where I like even

  even who there I was thinking like maybe

  on the next one I won't mind so much

  that now I'm now forced to get the smart

  air suspension which softens the ride

  that can sound kind of nice like I

  realize after I was thinking that I'm

  like oh my god Who am I

  but like you're Mercedes here we come

  yeah but like but I realizing like like

  you know my priorities have changed too

  like if I was buying a new car today I

  would still get a Tesla and I would

  still get this the you know a fast model

  but it's because I would want the the

  biggest range which is which is not the

  fastest model which is the decision I

  made with this one and I would make the

  exact same decision again like the speed

  of it is way less important to me than

  the range of it I like that it's fast I

  have fun with the speed sometimes but

  it's way less often that that's relevant

  to me than it used to be and you know

  for UKC like you know as we've mentioned

  in the past like you know being a car

  enthusiast is so much a part of your

  identity that you know and it need not

  be you know that's that's an option that

  you have yeah but but you know you you

  still you you have a lot of that love

  and you and some degree you probably

  always will but it's okay if if it comes

  to this if you realize this in your you

  know in introspection

  it's okay for your priorities to change

  or for like the the the significance

  that you apply to certain factors to be

  rearranged or to shift around and so

  like it's like you know you said like

  you know used to be you know you should

  be really like you know thrilled getting

  in your car and now it's more of a

  function and part of that is because

  you're you know you've had this car for

  a while so it's no longer as novel part

  of that is you kind of hate this car


  cost you but you know par that's also

  like you are growing up you know you

  your your but what six seven years older

  now them then when you growing up he's

  in his mid-30s he's getting old you stop

  growing up we're always growing up you

  know you start getting older certain

  morning I think you okay yeah we are

  continuing to get old some of us older

  the busy living or get busy dying

  finally something you both get reference

  technology whatever it is like you know

  it's okay to change over time and to

  recognize that's what's happening and I

  agree with you the thing is I don't feel

  like I'm that different I agree that I

  am slightly different and the joy I get

  from Aaron's car is indication to me

  that I am feeling differently because

  Aaron's car feels to me anyway very

  cushy it has a lot of those techno bits

  that like your car has not exactly the

  same but like you know there's an app

  where I can start it remotely and I know

  you're like haha what's an engine but

  you get what I'm driving at and and I

  get a lot of pleasure from Aaron's car

  despite the fact that it's big it's slow

  it according to Jon tips over if you

  steer more than you know five degrees

  laterally but but it's in every way it's

  wrong from the list of things that Casey

  enjoys but I do like it and I think the

  thing that that the crisis I'm having is

  that I don't feel like I'm that

  different like well all I really want in

  the world is somebody that is not BMW to

  make me either a 340 sedan or an m3 and

  I don't think that really exists and

  there was a report I'm not gonna be able

  to find the link but a friend of mine

  Brad sent me a report some rumors that

  the 3-series is going to lose the stick

  in the next generation which isn't

  particularly surprising but is kind of

  devastating and I know I need to just

  wake up and smell reality that that the

  three pedal cars are not long for this


  but I feel like I'm being this is a lot

  of words to say I feel like I'm being

  abandoned and BMW is supposed to help me

  and it sounds like they're abandoning me

  and either way

  grumpy about the fact that this cars

  cost me a bazillion dollars so I I just

  I feel like I'm a ronin right like I'm a

  man without a master now and and that

  bums me out because I want to be able to

  to find a car that gives me that joy

  again and you know the the Julia did

  give me a lot of that joy and maybe I

  would feel slightly differently about it

  if there was literally no other options

  like if there were no three pedal cars

  but you know I mean like I feel like

  I've been I've been left wanting in and

  that that kind of bums me out cuz I feel

  like I'm the same as I've always been

  older and maybe wiser and certainly

  slower but it's I at least older at

  least older but but you know what I mean

  like I just I feel like nothing is

  filling that void even though I'm ready

  for something to fill that void

  for something to fill that void

  if the first version has to be assembled

  partially out of parts that come in the

  industry that's fine but eventually we

  like to bring that in-house because we

  feel like we can do it better we know

  exactly what we want for the watch we

  know exactly what we want for our phones

  I don't want to have to convince some

  other company to make this product for

  me and in fact we have some better ideas

  about how it might be dump is behind all

  the best people in this industry because

  we have too much money right and that is

  way more aggressive than just shopping

  among like oh we're gonna use the Sony

  panel in this display or we're gonna use

  Tran Tran so the best CRTs and you know

  like it's way more aggressive to say

  we're gonna do it ourselves because it's

  a competitive advantage not to have to

  wait for the rest of the industry to do

  anything and in the case of these

  screens even if you're in a situation

  where one company makes the best screens

  and Apple wants the best screens and

  they feel bad getting a one supplier I

  think apples view on it aside from that

  we just don't like giving money to

  Samsung as a single suppliers to say we

  think we can do that better because we

  know exactly what we want and it's a

  pain to have to tell Samsung exactly

  what we want and get them to build the

  thing that we want and go through all

  that thing we know what we want why

  don't we just do it ourselves and that's

  what they've been doing with lots of

  components if they have any problems

  with any kind of supplier like Qualcomm

  being annoying and about you know

  charging them lots of money or them not

  having lots of alternatives and trying

  to get Intel to build radio chips and

  stuff in a venture they say you know

  what I'm tired of this we have good

  engineers we know how to build things

  why don't we build the radio chips and

  not build so much as design and have

  manufactured for us the last bastion of

  that is manufacturing we're thus far

  Apple has been happy to say

  manufacturers compete amongst yourselves

  and we will give you CPU fab our design

  that you will fab for us and we will

  give you manufacturing thing our case

  design that you will machine that of

  aluminum for us and we will help you buy

  the machines for it and we'll help you

  work on the techniques to use those

  machines and we'll do all this stuff but

  in the end Apple doesn't own the

  factories Apple does not own a silicon

  CPU fab it still allows other companies

  to do that for it so it hasn't gotten to

  the point where we say you know what I'm

  tired of waiting for you know Taiwan

  Semiconductor to come up with a new fab

  let's make our own fab because that

  starts to get you know a couple billion

  here capability in there so you're

  talking real money so so far they've

  been avoiding that but

  the modern Apple I think is more

  aggressive than any other Apple has been

  in their drive to get a real competitive

  edge in the market by saying we'll do it

  ourselves and having the confidence that

  they'll be able to be able to do it

  better than anyone else which is

  exciting from a technology perspective

  to see you know that's what we always

  want Apple to although it may seem

  exciting when Apple is able to

  synthesize from the parts that are

  available to almost anybody or most

  people you know plus or minus one or two

  parts to make a great product at it it's

  even more exciting I guess in the iPhone

  age to see them make phones that are

  just leaps and bounds better in certain

  areas than other phones for reasons that

  are directly traceable to Apple strategy

  to say bring the system out of chips in

  house that's why their system on chips

  are so much better than everybody else's

  if they were still sitting around they

  were using the same chips as Android

  phones though the I think the phone

  landscape would look very different

  Apple wouldn't be able to do half the

  things that it does because it would be

  working with CPUs that are not now I'm

  gonna say that are worse or slower which

  I'm in case they are but that simply are

  not tailored to the set of features that

  Apple wants it picks the exact number of

  cores the exact number of amount of

  cache right the the you know the exact

  layout so they can put all their

  different you know they know exactly

  what they want for like the iPhone tend

  to do face ID if they had to adapt some

  weird you know Snapdragon processor that

  has way more cores and they want but not

  enough of something else that they want

  we'd still be waiting for for a face ID

  so I don't know I know I'm going with

  this except to say that I think that

  this aspect of Apple the technological

  aggression is actually I think one of

  the most interesting aspects of the

  company today and probably

  underappreciated by you know by anybody

  who doesn't fall Apple really closely

  doesn't really care what's in their

  products but I find it exciting

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  show all right let's move on to ask ATP

  Simon edge Singh says hey what's the

  deal with the bits that were once used

  as an important spec for gaming consoles

  how many bits does a modern console have

  and why's it no longer used in marketing

  and so as soon as I read this I thought

  back to the days of the Nintendo 64

  which everyone knew was 64-bit because

  it was right there in the name and oh

  man was that thing way cooler than any

  other modern console or so I thought

  when I was 10 or whatever so John is the

  chief gamer of the three of us can you

  explain to me what's the deal with these

  bits and why are they no longer used in

  marketing well marketing has moved

  entirely on to blast proccesing as a all

  right so the bits thing like first I

  read this question I'm like is that a

  thing that people really wonder about

  like our consoles still marketed with

  bits and I think the person who's asking

  this must have lived through the era

  when that was

  these days I haven't seen like the the

  ps3 or ps4 are you the ps2 for that

  matter marketing with bits like its it's

  a thing that is that has passed us by

  for for good reasons but back when it

  was used as the marketing turn ascribing

  a number of bits to a CPU like oh this

  is a 16-bit CPU this is 32-bit CPU this

  is a 64-bit CPU there's no hard and fast

  rules as with most things and

  marketing's and when you can say

  something like that but in general the

  number of bits tended to be applicable

  because certain things have the same

  number of bits so the you know the

  integer registers the place where you

  store a number would have 16 bits and

  the address but bus would be 16 bits

  wide which they controlled how much RAM

  you could address and you'd call that

  processor a 16 bit processor didn't have

  to be the case for example there are

  many quote-unquote 32-bit processors

  that shipped with hardware wise

  physically speaking a 24 bit memory bus

  and thinking of the original Macintosh

  and many after that you'd still call it

  a 32 bit processor though because the

  integer registers for 32 bits wide and

  even on a quote-unquote 32 bit processor

  the floating-point registers might have

  been 64 bits wide why is that not a 64

  bit processor and what if the memory bus

  is wider than the integers and what if

  the integer is wider than the memory bus

  and like so there is no hard and fast

  rule but in general because usually

  either the memory bus or the integer

  register width or both were on this

  number and because there was a

  progression because it's more expensive

  especially in the early days to make

  wider buses to make larger registers

  right that each leap like now we can

  make the registers 32 bits each leap was

  met with a marketing push to say you

  know the 386 is the 32-bit processor and

  importantly in terms of representable

  numbers for integers 64-bit integers and

  way before you want them to like 65535

  right 32-bit integers ended a pretty

  high number that you feel like I can do

  a lot more with four billion oh yeah

  there's a lot more things I can count

  with precision from you know with the

  four billion

  item so I can count where's 65,000 I can

  think of lots of scenarios where I might

  need to bend I'm bigger than that so

  once we cross 32 bits we're and same

  thing for memory addressing although in

  the beginning there was no computer no

  personal computer could fill up all the

  third qubits that memory bus so

  eventually we got there once you cross

  32 you have a lot more Headroom so 8-bit

  and 16-bit it's like lots of problems

  where this is annoying and flowing port

  doesn't help you entirely because of

  precision and all that stuff

  32 bits so I can run this for a while

  and we did we ran on quote-unquote

  32-bit processors for a long time till

  we eventually got to the point where you

  could fill a PC with more RAM that could

  be addressed with 32 bits and then we

  needed to go to 64 but that took a

  really long time now our phones are

  freaking 64-bit which is amazing if you

  live for the era where you had to

  progress you're 16 and 32 and so on and

  so forth game consoles same deal their

  computers they have memory buses usually

  they use cheaper stuff because they cost

  less money than a PC so when pcs were

  using 32-bit processors game consoles

  maybe a eight or 16-bit processors just

  because they had to cost so much less

  money and it costs less money to make

  you know smaller chips in surface area

  and the more lanes you have for your

  address buses everywhere and though the

  wider your interest registers and all

  that of stuff the bigger there so once

  consoles like so 16-bit was turbo

  graphics Christine SNES Genesis Sega

  Master System was 8-bit right yeah

  anyway you can look on Wikipedia what

  the bits were but so there was there was

  eight bit gaming consoles two 16-bit

  once we got to 32 around the era

  surprisingly of the Nintendo 64 we got

  the 32 PlayStation was 32 entender 64

  was arguably not as 64 e as they made it

  out to be okay why do you say that I

  don't think every like it didn't I have

  to look up him what computer but I don't

  I don't think the the memory bus and

  he's more for example or 64 bits what

  yeah I think you're right there were

  like parts of it that were 64 bit but

  not like it was arguable because like

  because why would you make the memory

  about 64 bits why I have no idea I'm

  just pulling this off the top of my head

  but seriously there's no way in hell the

  physically speaking they have a 64-bit

  memory bus and something that had like 2

  megabytes of RAM like it doesn't make

  any sense right you need 4 gigs to

  see the addressability of 32 minutes and

  if they did it must have only been

  because they were using an existing part

  but it just doesn't seem like they would

  do it's the same reason they had 24-bit

  memory bus on the Macintosh because

  first of all you're never going to

  address like 32 4 gigabytes of RAM

  gigabytes you can't you can't have four

  gigabit you know the Mac guys had 128

  kilobytes of RAM oh yeah even a 24-bit

  Mary bus preserve so you save money

  because you have less you know what less

  room on the chip less traces on your

  board blah blah so I'm assuming that it

  wasn't but if there's any part of it is

  64-bit you can call it 64-bit okay so a

  little bit of digging as you were

  talking the are 4200 has a 30 20 trans

  translation lookaside buffer table the

  system bus the 64 bits wide and operates

  at half the internal clock frequency

  however the are 4300 I which is what I

  believe was in the n64 is a derivative

  of that blah blah blah blah blah and a

  cut-down 32-bit system bus for reduced

  cost yeah but in marketing for mark

  needs and by the way like I said lots of

  times in 32-bit processors the like I

  know but x86 indexes have a 8080 bit

  wide floating-point registers doesn't

  like that I don't remember something I

  just had to learn how to decode that

  format yeah but no one ever said it's an

  80 bit processor just because of

  convention they just kind of say oh the

  memory bus and the engine registers

  that's kind of what we call the

  processor right that's why it that's why

  they're marketing terms because 16-bit

  and 32-bit it might you might think it

  means something but unless you know

  exactly what it means it doesn't you

  know never mind that like the width of

  the memory bus and the size of integer

  registers really says nothing about how

  fast the thing processes stuff like and

  you know anyway gating speed is hard but

  there was a clear progression with

  number of bits up to about the 32-bit

  point where we hung out for a long time

  and now that we've gone to 64-bit where

  we really are 64 bits you know even 64

  memory bus I don't think we're at full

  64 what does worth like the Zeon's have

  they probably have like 48 bit yeah

  because there was that there was that

  PAE thing for awhile where I like to

  address more than I think 16 gigs there

  was something like that we're like even

  even the Intel even when Intel went


  you couldn't address 64 bits

  worth of memory without certain tricks

  here and there and I I think that has

  since been lifted to a pretty high level

  but but but probably out of full 64 like

  I I know that you can buy servers with

  like 200 gigs of RAM in them right but

  you can't buy servers with however much

  RAM fits in 64 bits which is some

  astronomical man right yeah

  Zeta bytes or whatever the hell it is so

  we're still saving money in that regard

  but 64-bit integer registers are gonna

  run us a good long while and I don't

  really seem any anything going to

  personal there's no need for a 128-bit

  memory bus because we can't even

  physically put 64 bits of memory like to

  fill that whole address space and

  128-bit integers aren't really getting

  you that much more of problems that you

  can deal with in 64-bit registers

  floating-point registers are even wider

  than they've ever been now - and on GPUs

  and in sort of the you know media

  streaming sim D instruction sets those

  could actually stand to go a little bit

  wider just to be able to process more

  values at once because a lot of times

  they're using like where they call half

  precision values for games and stuff

  where you don't need so they'll use

  they'll still use 16-bit stuff just to

  pack more into process martin lunch so

  there's probably Headroom for those two

  all cranked up to 32 and 64-bit to you

  know or or could use floating-point

  everywhere for everything so there's

  some headroom there but no one brags

  about GPUs in terms of number bits

  either because it doesn't make any sense

  and that's just not how they're marketed

  so this is a very long-winded

  explanation that gets into more

  everything you probably cared about but

  I think that's that's part of the thing

  that this was entirely a marketing thing

  that latched on to a real thing that

  happened in the progression of certain

  the width of certain aspects of CPU

  design in the 70s 80s and 90s that has

  leveled off because there's no longer

  any obvious benefit to widening these

  things at an accelerated rate again

  setting aside GPUs which there is some

  benefit to continuing to wide and stuff

  there and they will continue to be one

  but GPUs are and marketed in that way so

  marketing is weird I would also say like

  you know date like back in you know

  we're like we grew up in the well Casey

  and I grew up in these days John was

  already infected but but you know we're

  over the time we're like you know like

  like we we both really saw like the the

  two 16-bit two 32-bit generations and

  you know 8-bit systems like they didn't

  market themselves as 8-bit it was the

  you know the NES versus the Sega Master


  you know vast majority dominated by the

  NES and then the Sega Genesis Mass you

  know was very heavily marketed when it

  came out of 16-bit because it was like

  this is twice as good like that was

  really like when the marketing I think

  was a peak like oh my god this is 16-bit

  and then the Super Nintendo came out and

  that was you know well marketed to be

  16-bit as well not as heavily as the

  Genesis though and then you know we went

  32-bit with the PlayStation 1 the Sega

  Saturn and then the generations kind of

  started being staggered like the n64

  came out there was a gap between the

  32-bit generation and the n64 so it

  started becoming like oh look since

  there's a gap and the n64 was in many

  ways significantly better than the

  Saturn on the PlayStation 1 then it was

  like this is they were they were kind of

  trying to say this is the next

  generation even though it was kind of

  like a half generational step and like

  the generations were no longer in sync

  and then that continued in the future

  generations like Sega went kind of you

  know middle of generation with the


  then the ps2 came out really early and

  then the Xbox happened like a little bit

  later so like the generation started to

  become more staggered and it wasn't all

  like okay these are the two systems of

  this one then these are the two systems

  for this one and then of course this

  correspondent with us what John was

  saying highlight the bits kind of

  stopped growing and stopped mattering

  the number of bits has so little bearing

  on modern performance like computers

  back then especially the kind of

  computers that were in game consoles

  were really simple I think once we've

  got to the era of having many different

  processors being involved and having

  them all be pretty complex and then

  having things like vector instructions

  which you know take the street like you

  know you mentioned Cindy and then you

  have GPUs coming and you have the GPU

  revolution that's happened like over the

  last you know you know decade or so

  we're like GPUs have gotten so

  incredible and so much of computing is

  moving to the GPU and that's where so

  much of the action is happening and

  they're the bits you know are completely

  different than the CPU but you know it's

  it's you know a lot of things don't work

  the same way or don't matter the same

  so I think most of the reason we've

  moved past the bits thing is that you

  like like you know like Simon asks like

  how many bits does a modern console have

  you kind of can't say guys like well how

  many how many bits in what part do the

  integer registers of the CPU or the

  address bus even matter to modern

  performance or is it like for a game

  console you're probably looking more

  more at the GPU than anything else how

  many bits wide is the GPU you know in

  various like buses and thing like that

  like that might matter but even that's

  hard to compare between different

  architectures and different generations

  and everything else like it's just

  everything is so much more advanced now

  that it's way more complicated there

  really is no single number you can say

  all right this is a you know 128-bit

  system like you really can't say that

  anymore and it's not really a relevant

  question to even ask they do have the

  numbers that they say though like to

  that end manufacturers do throw numbers

  at you but the numbers are no longer

  about width in most cases although like

  I said I think they probably will go

  back to with once they start once the

  GPU precision starts going up and that

  starts mattering more in-game so for now

  they don't say that but what they do

  tell you is they tell you flops

  floating-point operations per second

  from the GPU because that's kind of how

  they just do this sort of you know my

  GPU is bigger than your GPU like the

  architecture is so complicated that no

  one can comprehend it right no regular

  people comprehend it but and it's very

  regular and repeated in those maybe

  they'll tell you the number of execution

  units just something a number of engines

  or a number of building blocks but

  really want you want to know is

  floating-point operations per second

  that's just a big aggregate number that

  doesn't really have any bearing piece

  you're never actually maxing it out well

  maybe if you're really good game

  developer you might be maxing out for

  some period of time they'll tell you

  memory bandwidth which is important for

  how you can shuffle information to and

  from your big pool of RAM and to and

  from the CPU and the GPU and those

  numbers I think have way more bearing on

  performance than any kind of width

  because at least they tell you like I

  can process this many things in this

  amount of times that I can ship this

  many things from A to B and these days

  that's what people are measuring

  consoles are and then maybe clock speeds

  they'll throw in there but really that's

  not so much they don't do even do that

  much CPU measuring if there's lots of

  ways you could measure CP

  but they don't even really compare those

  because they know that for the most part

  especially as we've gone to HD and now

  4k the GPU is very often the limiting

  factor so they throw they throw that

  stuff around so there's always some

  number that come up with a marketing

  team to to let people measure their

  consoles against the let people's

  consoles but it hasn't been bits for a

  while and and speaking on the bits thing

  like and I don't know if this was clear

  but like the reason the reason it

  mattered so much back when we were gone

  to 8 to 16 and 60 and 32 is not just

  like the count ability of things of

  saying 65 K is not quite enough I think

  the the the thing that brings it home is

  a link that I couldn't find out it tried

  to Google for it maybe it wouldn't be

  more successful is to think about what

  it would be like to build a game on a

  device that had 8-bit integer registers

  and no floating-point so you get you get

  0 to 255 and you have to make a game

  like that's all you have you can add

  subtract divide you can do whatever you

  want with those numbers right but

  there's no floating point and you can

  never have a number bigger than 255 and

  you can ever number smaller than 0 and

  if you want to do negatives you can you

  know reserved a bit for sign and have

  your range right and that's I'm if my

  memory serves me correctly that is not

  just a hypothetical exercise that's the

  original Gameboy and if you think of the

  some of the games that are arranged in

  the middle of Gameboy like say you're

  making a side scroller how do you keep

  track of where they are on the thing or

  say you're doing a top view Legend of

  Zelda where are they on the map how many

  inventory items do they have like try

  making a game where you can only count

  from 0 to 255

  it's really hard you have to be very

  clever and never mind that oh by the way

  that's also the thing that's figuring

  out how to draw the screen and what

  palettes to go from and had to define

  sprites and do stuff like that that's

  why the bits mattered so much because

  when you went from 8-bit 16-bit suddenly

  you had enough numbers for counting that

  you could define bigger color look-up

  tables and you could make bigger sprites

  and ship them around and count to higher

  numbers to make bigger maps and yes of

  course is the audio processing as you

  know higher bitrate for audio and stuff

  like that you would see the result of

  those bits on the screen

  the clock speed you don't even care what

  that was you're just like now I can

  count the higher numbers now I can keep

  track of more colors and more things on

  the screen because I have you know that

  there's literally you can count the

  higher number it makes a big difference

  especially when you don't have

  floating-point to approximate those

  things and so the leap from 8 16 to 32

  were huge partially because of the

  bidness just because you were so starved

  you were so starved for the ability to

  just count and do basic math and keep

  track of things in the limited

  architecture but once you can count to 4

  billion you're probably ok with the

  counting thing you're probably ok with

  the number of colors you got all that

  stuff covered and by the way you have

  floating-point some of the point along

  and like floating point comes in so if

  you really need to do something you can

  do floating point and so that's why you

  don't have rehab it's anymore but I

  think bits were actually super important

  like Margot said 16-bit was a change you

  could see so much more than you could

  see that you know a difference in ps3

  and ps4 8-bit 16-bit was just like it

  was bigger than retina it was no one is

  confused about it and they asked gamer s

  any asked and nobody is confused it was

  such a big difference that's kids these

  days closest thing they have is

  appreciating how much faster new iPhones

  are than previous ones because they're

  still getting faster pretty fast but

  there is no technological equivalent to

  8 16 32 bit console progression for

  people growing up today so far maybe

  when they get into the holographic

  things they're biologic or modification

  it will have even bigger changes but for

  now you just listen to stories from old

  people what I would say to like I think

  one of the biggest reasons why we stop

  talking about bits is that even the

  whole concept of having these like

  console measuring contests just like

  fell out of relevance because consoles

  are all so powerful now I don't know

  anybody who I mean maybe except John who

  would make a console buying decision

  based on hardware specs

  you're you're just down the ride forums

  that's the console war still exists oh I

  mean I'm sure I'm sure those people will

  always talk about it but like I think

  it's definitely not in the mass market

  if it ever was even like

  you don't buy a new consult today

  because of how many mega flops or

  teraflops or whatever the unit is today

  like you don't buy a console today based

  on that like you know if you're deciding

  between the you know the xbox of the of

  the day and the PlayStation of the day

  and the switch of the day that decision

  is going to be made based on things like

  games like like titles that are

  available for the system's it's gonna be

  based on things like media features

  heart like output features like doesn't

  support 4k or not you know VR potential

  you know add-on potentially that's gonna

  be the kind of thing that most people

  buy their consoles based on these days

  the hardware is so good now it's you

  know it's the the the gains that are

  occurring in the hardware are oftentimes

  not very relevant in like numeric terms

  compared to other attributes of the

  system that aren't necessarily its raw

  performance so my dad as I've mentioned

  in the past on this show worked for IBM

  for almost my entire life and I remember

  that he was so excited about the cel

  processor in the PlayStation 3 and was

  talking to me constantly about it I

  don't know how much of that was just

  because he was an IBM ER and it was an

  IBM processor or at least in part anyway

  I don't know how much that was like

  regular people marketing or how much of

  that was just IBM patting themselves on

  the back but and John I'm kind of

  looking to you to clarify but I heard

  about this Cell processor constantly in

  about OKC did you hear what they're

  doing to sell now oh and they're doing

  this for you know scientific computing

  oh they're doing this for some other

  thing you know it's not just about the

  Playstations it's gonna revolutionize

  the way computers are built which sort

  of kind of was sort of kind of wasn't

  but anyway did did that marketing ever

  really happen or was that just being the

  child of an IBM er it it did and like I

  said there part of the reason you don't

  see as much of that these days it's just

  because the consoles became so similar

  because the the ability to create the

  stuff that goes into consoles started to

  go so far outside the realm of console

  developers ability they could they

  couldn't even like outsource it and say

  we want you to build you a CPU like this

  just because it cost so much money and

  so they started to have to pool their

  resources and it would be like Nvidia's

  as well we

  got a lot of GPUs and we can customize

  one of our GPUs for your thing but we're

  not gonna build you a fresh GPU from

  scratch just for your thing we can

  cobble together something out of like

  leftover bits of the last generation of

  our desktop parts site and there's no

  way you Nintendo or Microsoft or Sony

  are gonna design here on CPU from

  scratch like forget it so how about

  everybody just uses PowerPC cpus of a

  couple of different variants and AMD ATI

  GPUs and so we have whole generation of

  consoles with PowerPC TV CPUs cobbled

  together from cores that were used in

  like Mac's slightly modified and ATI at

  that time GPUs and in this generation

  you've got x86 CPUs from AMD they're in

  the PlayStation and the Xbox that use

  that and GPUs from AMD also very similar

  very off-the-shelf parts so what are you

  gonna brag about right and so the sell

  was different the sell was probably the

  last the last gasp of we want a

  radically different thing that is not

  just a bunch of PowerPC your x86 CPU

  core store and although there were

  PowerPC cores in there because you can't

  do everything from scratch but it's

  gonna be really weird really different

  really exotic and have lots of

  interesting ideas in it and to make that

  happen they had to convince IBM or IBM

  had to convince itself that like your

  dad said it's not just about the

  PlayStation there's gonna be lots of

  applications for the sale and we user of

  this and we can use with that to justify

  the massive investment they put in

  partnership with all these other people

  to make this thing and they did reuse

  PowerPC cores for certains for the like

  the effort where they call it the PPEs

  right both for the SPU's they made these

  other little cores and they made this

  ring bus and everything and it was a

  really cool really interesting cpu

  architecture like go read the articles

  about the cell it is it is novel and

  interesting and has lots of ideas from

  like supercomputing and other things in

  a small package totally a technological

  feat so your dad was right to be excited

  about it but to Marco's point you know

  people don't care about that

  they just care about the games

  to your point Casey Sony did market the

  exoticness of the cell as much as they

  could they were all about the cell is

  different than other people's things and

  it was different

  Sony's pitch was it's different in a way

  that will make you have amazing things

  in reality it was different in a way

  that will make it very difficult to

  write dev tools that work to it because

  it doesn't work like any other game

  console and it was very difficult to

  write a program that efficiently used

  all those resources because it was

  honestly not quite a good balance in

  resources you really had to figure out

  how to orchestrate them just so you were

  using them all to their maximum extent

  and not leaving any idle and it was just

  it took years and years for the best

  developers game developers in the world

  to figure out how to ring all the

  performance out of the cell by the time

  the Last of Us came out it's like wow

  ps3 is pretty powerful gonna do some

  pretty amazing stuff but it's still kind

  of unbalanced and the whole system is

  kind of RAM starved and I wish it had

  more of this and a little bit of that

  and it's the you know this is the case

  you must love this because the current

  generation of consoles and you know for

  a while now it's been the American

  approach of there's no substitute for

  cubic inches you know you can give it a

  ton of RAM give it a big powerful x86

  CPU and like a cut-down desktop GPU done

  and done no exotic architecture needed

  solve the problem by throwing by

  throwing this placement that's what

  they're throwing it right and it's easy

  to develop for it because it's kind of

  the same you know PC game console

  whatever you can x86 CPU GPU that you

  familiar with 3d api's that you're

  familiar with amateur toolchain and

  everything that's what people want and

  that's what they have so the sell

  approach was technologically really cool

  and interesting and they did market the

  really cool interesting part of it but

  it ended up making a console that didn't

  produce the results in terms of cool fun

  novel games that Sony wanted it to and

  so everybody learned the lesson of that

  including Sony and the ps4 was like a

  giant apology about the ps3 the ps4

  fixed everything that was wrong with the

  ps3 it was so conventional so

  straightforward had so much friggin RAM

  was so simple to develop for that's why

  the ps3 did so much better than the ps4

  did so much better than the ps3 that

  went on longer than expected but that

  was that was awesome so thank you John

  for telling us a bottle of sk√•ne

  consoles they're great

  I won't argue with you but I've been

  really liking my switch lately as I keep

  bringing up over and over again that

  uses an off-the-shelf NVIDIA Tegra x1

  because Nintendo can't even afford to

  have people make mildly custom things

  for them

  really I love the switch I'm so it is

  the system I and and you know it is

  assume that I've been happiest with you

  know it's basically since my Genesis

  like that's I have not had a game system

  since my Genesis that I was dis happy

  with and it has almost nothing to do

  with the processor or the GPU I have no

  idea what it has in it I I didn't look

  at that when getting it I haven't

  thought to look at that since I have no

  idea how it compares to the Xbox 17 or

  whatever the hell Xbox is the current

  Xbox way less powerful that's how I

  could probably but it doesn't matter at

  all like it just doesn't because what

  matters is the games and the games are

  awesome like that's that that to me is

  so much more important than any of the

  specs and like I'm just I'm incredibly

  happy with my game console and I have no

  idea what's in it so it does matter in

  that if it was really difficult to

  develop for the switch it would take

  longer to make games that are up to the

  standards that you're currently playing

  them right and if there were fewer games

  because not as many developers would be

  able to to you know so like there is

  there are aspects of a technology that

  impact like how do we end up with good

  games you need to have a minimum

  baseline of like oh I can develop games

  to this and it's not too weird and I can

  develop them efficiently with skills I

  already have without encountering too

  many bugs without having to learn an

  entirely new custom dev environment and

  3d API and toolchain and everything like

  that's a part of the technology

  selection that does impact the part that

  you care about I would also argue that

  the power of the system also influences

  what you care about but it's clear that

  the switch is a compromise between a

  plugged into the wall TV connected

  console and a portable one so they made

  they have to make compromises in power

  and it is less powerful and I think that

  decrease in power gives you the huge

  benefits of portability which according

  to defend those surveys that they're

  running tons of people use this in

  portable mode so they made the right

  choice there but the downside is that

  games that are possible on the ps4 and

  Xbox one X and especially the Xbox one X

  and but also the Xbox one may not be

  possible on the switch and so they won't

  even get ports or if they do get ports

  they'll be cut down ports which means

  that most people want to play them other

  consoles right so power is still think

  the thing that Apple needs to Apple in

  tender needs to keep up with there there

  are rumors that Nintendo actually is

  going to come out with a sort of a

  switch Pro with a more powerful probably

  nvidia tegra x2 maybe chip inside it

  again probably off the shelf because

  that's the thing they're doing these

  days is making speck bumped versions of

  existing consoles that nevertheless play

  all the old games sort of like a

  generation and a half type thing and the

  reason they do that is like the Nintendo

  also knows if we make this more powerful

  we it expands the realm of the kind of

  games we can make the breadth of the

  wilds follow up if there ever is one for

  the switch but whatever platform it's on

  we'll be able to have a more detailed

  more expansive world than this one was

  in the same way that you could never do

  breath of the wild on a Wii U or are we

  like that better game that we all love

  it just care about the games you can't

  do that game on less powerful consoles

  because the world is too big the draw

  businesses are too large doesn't have

  the you know the heart of our software

  to set for all the level of detail stuff

  doesn't have the RAM so on and so forth

  so technology does enable good games and

  has to be pursued but absolute spec

  numbers are not the end-all be-all

  because if you add up all the

  theoretical floating-point operations of

  the cell could do it looks like it's

  amazing monster CPU when in the end

  people couldn't even figure out how to

  use half of it and half the launch games

  we're leaving leaving huge swaths of the

  surface area the silicon surface area of

  the chip idle because they just couldn't

  figure out how to even use all those

  cores and their engine only knew how to

  use like one or two so they would use

  one or two and leave half the hardware

  idle like the launch games that's not a

  good situation and just put a period on

  this four hour ask ATP hey I really love

  having the ability to pop the switch out

  of the dock and just walk around with it

  and I might be the only one I mean

  obviously what you said John is that it

  sounds like in in Nintendo is seeing a

  lot of that but they released there is

  some numbers like we surveyed their

  users like something that Apple never


  how often do you use your switch docks

  portable and both and like the number

  like the number of people who are like

  me and Marco who only use a docked was

  very small it was like 20% or something

  and 80% of people are using a portable

  at least some of the time yeah yeah and

  I use it probably half and half to be

  honest which I know is probably barbaric

  to you but you know it is what it is all

  right so we'll try to do an abridged a

  couple of ask ATP's to round this out

  Johnny Oh would like to know hey what's

  the deal with sports

  he writes please explain to the nerd

  crowd the concept of being a sports team

  fan I don't understand why people refer

  to my team etc unless they've actually

  played for that team well you've written

  into the right podcast Johnny er

  supports experts here now we can cover

  this quickly so Sports is about more

  than just as with anything in life is

  about more than just looking at the the

  quote unquote ones and zeros of it and

  looking kind of a little bit deeper and

  so let's talk about my team so I went to

  school at Virginia Tech in Blacksburg

  Virginia and Virginia Tech had at the

  time this was in the very early 2000s

  had a exceptionally great football team

  that was quarterbacked by Michael Vick

  who ended up being a not so

  exceptionally great human being the

  dukey's home pods but are they whatever

  they are Hokies

  there we go yep yeah so the reason we

  would one would be enthusiastic about

  that is because in the case of college

  sports that's your peers like they were

  also students of the same University

  that are playing in this Gill National

  Arena and so why is it my team because I

  was also a student at Virginia Tech just

  like because you went to school in the

  same and same school that they did right

  so you were there right and they were

  there right so doesn't it make it our

  time you don't get that reference stop

  laughing Margo no I'm laughing at the

  ridiculousness of this situation like

  you're right I don't the reference but

  like like I like like when I was in high

  school I was in the marching band for

  the football team right so like I was

  literally at every football game sitting

  30 feet from the football players

  watching the whole game participating in

  this weird

  like playing music to encourage them and

  celebrate victories in the game and I

  still wouldn't say we won okay I would

  never like my team our team like it was

  literally I was right there I was

  somewhat involved I would never thought

  that way this is my team I couldn't give

  less of a craft they did I think gays KC

  is explaining is an accurate explanation

  of why people feel it's their team yeah

  I just I was my kind of thing snarky and

  I'm silly but I think people who go to

  the school do feel it's their team

  because they go to the same school

  despite the fact that I feel like most

  college athletes especially biased love

  are really going to a different school

  than you are oh that's variance of

  school in your experience of school

  absolutely but it is still your school

  and you are going to it and so are they

  yeah and and this is also applicable for

  professional sports except it's a much

  more nebulous Association that the

  school is your state and/or region

  exactly so country for the Toronto

  vision right so if you look at a

  professional sports team it's often that

  it's the team that either your family

  has been rooting for so as an example

  I'm a fan of the New York Giants and my

  grandfather my mother's father has been

  a Giants fan pretty much since the

  franchise started and so I just grew up

  watching the Giants such as what we did

  and at the time we lived in the New York

  area and so it made sense for that to be

  our team because of geographic proximity

  where this really falls apart is all the

  completely that all the people who are

  woefully uninformed and think that the

  Dallas Cowboys or the Pittsburgh

  Steelers are good football teams with

  the notable exception of the 10 fans

  from each team that actually live in

  Dallas or Pittsburgh because if you ever

  notice an NFL fan generally speaking

  they either like the Cowboys or the

  Steelers and generally speaking they

  have no association with either

  Pittsburgh or Dallas not that I'm bitter

  about this

  that's old football fans who remember

  when the Cowboys and steals Steelers

  they win Super Bowls isn't it now about

  like Cowboys versus the cheaters it's

  really purses anybody and then the

  cheaters are John's team actually and I

  don't have a team well cuz your team is

  cheaters yes I wouldn't want to claim

  them either

  I wasn't rooting for the Patriots in the

  Super Bowl

  so anyway so the idea is that take

  something that you either participated

  in as a kid so as an example I played a

  little bit of basketball as a kid and

  imagine watching something that you can

  do all right but watching some watching

  somebody who is a professional at that

  thing and it's just it's it's almost

  poetic watching how good they are at

  that particular skill in that particular

  sport that's what's that's what's fun

  about it and then when you add in that

  kind of ownership either by way of a

  school affiliation or geographic


  it just becomes fun and you know why

  would you watch somebody play a video

  game right it's the same thing now maybe

  you wouldn't claim that that's your team

  within the video game but many games

  have teams now to though point you sport

  eSports actually do have teams and the

  teams are original and they're so

  they're trying to adopt that model yeah

  but you get the idea is that imagine

  it's something that you do but it's some

  other people that do it a hell of a lot

  better than you will ever do it and it's

  just cool to watch and plus you know

  games are fun games are fun to watch

  games are fun to play and so it's just a

  confluence of all of that and I have a

  feeling that Johnny oh you're gonna

  listen to this and be like yeah that

  didn't convince me at all and that's

  okay not it sports aren't for everyone

  and I'm not a crazy sports person that

  watches ESPN all day every day and lives

  for SportsCenter or anything like that I

  just enjoy football and occasionally a

  couple other sports too well the

  question was about why do I endorse was

  about why being a sports team fan of

  having my team I think you did address

  that but like it doesn't I don't think

  the question was like why are sports and

  durable period like just to see

  achievement a human achievement or

  whatever it's about the fandom and my

  team type of thing to that end if I was

  to give my short version of the answer

  this would be that sports are a socially

  acceptable outlet for xenophobia well

  that's who that - not that I was making

  fun of Pittsburgh Steelers or Dallas

  Cowboys fans at all just moments ago all


  Tee tee on air writes hey I know you're

  not a big fan of Facebook and what they

  do with their data how do you guys feel

  about this whole Instagram thing since

  Instagram is owned by Facebook and I

  don't have a good answer for this I will

  be the first to tell you I do not have a

  good answer for this and my answer is I

  freaking love Instagram and I'm gonna

  steal Marcus thunder

  Steele Marcos line and say it's my happy

  place and because it's my happy place

  despite the fact that they're insistent

  on trying to ruin it I'm going to keep

  using it until I have an even more

  compelling reason not to use it I will I

  do have a Facebook account I

  occasionally look at it I would happily

  get rid of my Facebook account

  long before I would get rid of my

  Instagram account and that's just a

  choice I'm making I'm not saying it's a

  good choice I'm not saying it's

  reasonable I'm not saying it's not

  hypocritical or backwards or whatever

  but it's just my choice Marco yeah I

  mean this it's a really like I talked a

  little bit on Twitter about this earlier

  like it's hard because you know the the

  tech giant's are so big like Facebook

  owns so much stuff if you're trying to

  for instance get off all Facebook

  services what if you're in one of the

  many parts of the world where whatsapp

  is like the default messaging platform

  like that's that applies to a lot of

  places to a lot of people there's a

  reason why Facebook bought it for what

  was like 19 billion dollars or something

  like that like it's everywhere in

  certain places like it I know it's kind

  of oxymoron but like it's like because

  whatsapp is not very big in the US so

  like US residents might not realize how

  big of a deal it is but everywhere else

  in the world whatsapp is huge and really

  is like it you know it's bigger than SMS

  it's bigger than messaging it's bigger

  than iMessage like it's bigger than

  everything in certain parts of the world

  just to tell somebody like oh well

  Facebook happens to own that and

  Facebook is a terrible company and so

  you should quit you know everything of

  theirs including whatsapp that could

  really have a pretty significant

  negative impact on on someone's life if

  they're in an area where like whatsapp

  is it's big for them this and it's hard

  like I I love the idea of like dropping

  a tech giant that that is you know being

  you know horrible to people or to its

  company or to data or whatever else in

  some cases it's easier than others like

  when uber is being terrible which

  happens all the time like you know a lot

  of us move to lift like I did I haven't

  used uber since all that crap and

  whatever it was like a year ago saying

  I've been using lyft and it's you know

  what it's totally fine because every

  everywhere I've been like I don't I

  don't use ride-sharing that often

  usually it's only like when I'm

  traveling somewhere but you know every

  time I've used I've like hired a lift it

  and totally fine but there are certain

  regions where like lift just doesn't

  really serve or doesn't serve anywhere

  near well enough to be useful and so

  people there have to use you know suck

  it up and use uber and I'm not gonna

  tell them like don't use any of these

  services like if they sometimes that's

  your best option

  sometimes that's your only option so

  it's it and so with Facebook like they

  own so much and and a lot of what they

  own you know both things like whatsapp

  and and Instagram instagrams little bit

  of a special case which get to in a

  second but like you know this stuff they

  own like whatsapp and the core Facebook

  service itself for a lot of people they

  can just drop this stuff and it's no big


  and that's great I encourage you to but

  for a lot of people like if they aren't

  on Facebook they can no longer see like

  the pictures of their shoulder of their

  grandchildren because that's the only

  place where people post them or like

  like like I have never been a really

  active Facebook user I've never like

  posted stuff to Facebook or anything

  else but I do regularly check to

  communities on Facebook because that's

  the only place that these communities

  exist one of them is for our summer

  place and one of them is for the local

  school like there's like a group of like

  parents for the local school on Facebook

  and a lot of times that is the the first

  the best or sometimes the only place

  that certain very relevant news or info

  is posted and this applies like lots of

  people they're kind of stuck using

  Facebook for this reason because there's

  some kind of community or something that

  that only posts incredibly important to

  them information on Facebook so it's

  really hard to tell people like that you

  should stop using Facebook because the

  impact of them not using Facebook like

  like the cost to Facebook of one less

  account is probably virtually nothing

  compared to the cost in that person's

  life of not having access to these

  communities or this information that is

  posted there so it's hard to make that

  argument that people who were in a

  situation like that should do it and I

  made the analogy earlier on Twitter it's

  it's kind of like when people get mad

  because they have like a bad experience

  with a flight and they try to like swear

  off an arrow

  forever and there's like five airlines

  and like they don't they don't all go to

  all the same places so like like you

  know if you live in say like a hub for

  United and United and you get you have a

  bad experience on United but just common

  it's terrible like what are you gonna do

  we're off united it was like if you live

  somewhere that's one of their hubs and

  all the flights going in and out are

  united you're gonna have a really hard

  time flying anywhere after that and

  there's not that many airlines so if you

  if you swear one off when you have a bad

  experience and you eat say you're never

  gonna fly with them again that starts to

  impact your life pretty significantly

  without too much time and so I feel like

  the tech giants are in a similar

  situation where like they owned so much

  and so much of so many views of these

  like big tech services are so critical

  to people's lives and many of them don't

  have direct alternatives or direct or

  they have such lock into certain

  communities that's very it's kind of

  unrealistic to expect people to move in

  mass that it's really hard to just tell

  people like you shouldn't use everything

  Instagram is is a bit of a special case

  because to a lot of people Instagram is

  not critical you know it's not like it

  isn't often like part of your job or

  anything but like like for me if I quit

  Instagram I would lose access to a lot

  of like my friends and my family's

  photos because that's where they all

  post them you know and like they don't

  have blogs they don't have websites we

  don't have photo shares elsewhere and

  maybe we could try to set some up but

  like that that becomes a much harder

  problem for like for me to be taking a

  political stance to say I don't want to

  use Facebook stuff anymore to then try

  to convince all my friends and family

  and people I don't know very well who I

  just enjoy their photos like hey you

  know can you instead start posting these

  over here or in addition start postings

  over here like it becomes a much harder

  harder proposition and you know I could

  I would be fine without Facebook I would

  just lose access to these communities

  that are occasionally useful to me and

  I'd be fine with that Instagram I would

  be less happy there certain like just

  you know inertia that in that

  like I've been on Instagram since I

  think 2010 my entire you know like the

  entire life I have here in the suburbs

  that includes the house my dog the

  entire life of my son has all been

  cataloged routinely on Instagram every

  year TIFF makes a photo book of

  Instagram photos for our family that's

  kind of like our families aren't like

  our family photo albums are like these

  Instagram books like it would it would

  disrupt a lot of that stuff and so I

  it's hard for me to overstate how much I

  dislike and disrespect Facebook the

  people who run Facebook the the idea of

  Facebook and and just the horrible

  amoral you know morally bankrupt people

  they're included right at the top right

  up to Zuckerberg and Sheryl Sandberg

  right at the top like they are morally

  bankrupt horrible people doing horrible

  things and that's also not very new

  that's it's not like this just started

  happening and this 2016 election like

  this is not new at all they always have

  been horrible people doing horrible

  things they're spineless turds and

  cowards I really really do not like them

  but I also can't totally avoid their

  services and retain like access to

  certain information that I need and want

  and you know the the joy and family and

  friends connections I get through

  Instagram so it's it's hard to avoid

  it's it's not a simple thing it isn't it

  isn't so simple to say like you know you

  know are you being hypocritical by still

  using it or you know why haven't you

  quit yet like to a lot of people it's

  more complicated than that and it's it

  isn't it's a bigger calculus than just

  like do you like these people or not

  because I hate those people but I still

  you know I've decided that the that like

  the statement I would make by leaving is

  too small to for the the cost it would

  be to me in my life you call those

  services too big to bail I guess

  Wow I see what you did there that's

  where you buy the cricket oh yeah

  definitely not affect in there I think

  that was quality commands you would like

  you would like to get out of them but

  they're just too big you can't convince

  everybody um so two things one I'm going

  to remind the world and the recording

  that I'm speaking into to take credit

  for the airline analogy you just make is

  I'm pretty sure I made that exact same

  one a couple years ago although you

  probably don't remember also I'm pretty

  sure jar Mark made it before you yeah no

  it's it's Turtles all the way down no I

  mean like in real life not in a podcast

  sometimes I say things that aren't

  recorded on podcast did you really save

  them then yeah this is not recording who

  can tell and two I'm going to predict

  that three weeks from now or so there

  will be a podcast featuring me where I

  talk about this very same issue at

  length and so I'm not going to talk

  about at length here so if you're

  interested in hearing that discussion

  that will probably happen sometime in

  the next three weeks you can check out

  reconcilable differences on real aid fm

  I look forward to hearing that in six to

  eight weeks erectus is by the way one of

  my favorite podcasts in the entire world

  I love that show so much yeah it's quite

  good you really should be you the

  listeners should really be listening to

  that if you're not already and and not

  unlike this show the shows do tend to

  run a little long but they are worth

  every damn minute so you should be

  checking that out thanks to our sponsors

  this week betterment Squarespace and

  insta bug and we'll see you next week

  now the show is over they didn't even

  mean to begin because it was accidental

  oh it was accidental johnny research

  Margo and Casey wouldn't let him cuz it

  was accidentally was accidental you can

  find a CAS URL is Esther that's Casey

  less and a are Co a RM auntie Marco


  SI r AC USA Syracuse

  a lot of people have been reaching out

  and saying hey Casey have you thought

  about the Kea stinger GT you should

  think about it it's a nice car it's not

  that nice it's nice be upset in it see

  it in like the interior in d2 pedals but

  otherwise if you you know other than

  that mrs. Lincoln how did you enjoy the

  play otherwise it sounds nice

  it did ty BMW 340 I and in comparison

  test which shows just how far BMWs

  fallen I think I mentioned that in a

  past show BMWs I actually occurred to me

  just the other day I was saying this to

  somebody shoot I don't remember who was

  but it wasn't on a podcast I guess I

  never said it I was walking back up the

  driveway from getting the Mayall and I

  looked at the garage and I looked at

  Aaron's car and went to my car I looked

  at my car for a while and it occurred to

  me just a few years ago like especially

  in 2013 for example when when Marco and

  me and underscore went to the driving

  school just a few years ago I would have

  said I was pretty much equally into

  Apple and BMW like that was during the

  heyday of my BMW loved speaking of

  heydays and I loved both of those brands

  more than almost anything and I don't

  really give a crap about BMW anymore I

  feel like I've been so let down by this

  one this one experience and I know I

  shouldn't judge all BMWs forever more

  based on one somewhat crummy almost

  lemon but I just I can't find myself I

  can't find myself getting excited by BMW

  anymore yeah I'm also I mean I think I'm

  in a very similar boat but may even

  workstream like BMWs doesn't relevant to

  me anymore like I you know when I moved

  to Tesla like I didn't realize quite how

  different it would be and quite how much

  it would make all other cars

  it's just seem like the past by

  comparison in multiple ways not just the

  drivetrain but like you know like the

  just hat you know that the big

  touchscreen having the some of the more

  like smart useful little features the

  app features some of

  the the practicalities of just like the

  giant hatchback and how much space how

  much cargo space there isn't it it's

  super nice like yesterday I brought I

  had a flat tire my bike it had to get a

  new inner tube but I don't know how to

  do that so I brought my bike to the

  store in town to have them do it and I

  fit this giant you know 27.5 Plus

  semi-fat bike in the back of my car and

  as I was

  I opened the open the truck it doesn't

  fit with a lot of leeway but it does fit

  and like I open the trunk when I got

  there like parked in the street and I

  pulled this giant bike out there's this

  I'm like wow you just pulled that out of

  that car like it's so nice anyway yeah I

  I kind of have the a similar feeling of

  like like I have no interest in like go

  on a test drive the new m5 or anything

  like that like and that's why it's one

  of the reasons why it was so hard for me

  to answer that question a few weeks ago

  of like you know what car would you have

  if you couldn't have you know this

  thing's the Tesla like I I really have

  no idea I'm not interested in any other

  cars at all and you know again maybe

  that will change in the future you know

  when there's more electric options from

  everybody but honestly I don't

  anticipate that changing in the near

  future I think it's what we're gonna be

  a far future thing but anyway I I'm

  totally with you like what BMW the

  direction they've gone in has has

  seemingly been you know significantly

  more mass luxury market like obviously

  going after a lot of what were probably

  formerly Alexis customers and you know

  that a lot of that came at the cost of

  the enthusiasts Joby's not gonna get any

  like Cisco surahs lesson customers need

  reliability they're going after Mercedes

  customers reliability but want a softer

  car yeah that's fair yeah but it was

  kind of funny that like kind of like the

  the decline of BMWs appeal to us has

  correspondant somewhat to the decline of

  Apple's appeal to us it's kind of sad


  hi you took them you took my moment cuz

  I was about to say the same that was

  obvious you can't blame me for that but

  still but nah right you can have any but

  I mean I shouldn't cut you off it Here I

  am so since I have I feel of

  very similarly but way way way less so

  about Apple that there are things that

  are annoying me about Apple that never

  used to annoy me you know and will and

  I'll beat up on Siri just briefly

  because that's the most obvious example

  like you know anytime I go to use Siri

  I'm just died a little inside not

  literally of course that's a bit what

  support I'm looking for hyperbolic I

  don't whatever anyway it's a bit extreme

  but but nevertheless it's like it annoys

  me every time in a way that Apple stuff

  used to delight me every time

  consistently that I touched it and and I

  feel you know I feel like it's this

  vector is the same direction but a far

  smaller magnitude that I'm getting I'm

  finding myself not is emotionally like

  excited by Apple stuff as I was in the

  past now there are exceptions like just

  the other day I looked down at my iPhone

  10 and I was like you know what this is

  a really awesome phone and having that

  swipe gesture has made everything better

  and in the lack of a home button like

  face ID still does drive me nuts in a

  few hey he's put by and large it's so

  cool and so I'm not trying to say that

  I've like lost hope and Apple by any

  means but and certainly the alternatives

  that's we've gone around and around

  about numerous times on the show the

  alternatives are not really alternatives

  but but nevertheless I I find myself

  getting similarly disappoint yeah I'm

  not mad I'm disappointed in you Apple

  and and that's that's a bummer because

  it's I mean it's just a company right

  like it and here again like have to come

  back to the SKT P about sports like

  Apple is kind of my team and Marco I'm

  definitely taking a page out of your

  PlayBook on that one cuz you've made

  this point for years that Apple was kind

  of your team and I feel like my team

  isn't it's not a slump that's that's

  dramatic but my team is not winning

  championships left and right like they

  used to be and that's that's a little

  bit of a bummer

  yeah and it's I think it's especially

  it's a little depressing when you don't

  have something else to replace that

  have something else to replace that

  it's gonna be long you know long drive

  but I bought walkie-talkies so that we

  could be like Top Gear stuff ain't gonna

  find out how crappy walkie-talkies are

  compared to modern digital cell network


  just start calling each other yeah but

  they're really fast like that something

  like you just push a button and talk

  that's like no linear static type type

  type you know I got decent ones right

  when I said the modern digital cell

  network I meant with the voice like you

  do you know you're you can talk into

  your phone oh yeah no one does that

  I'm just saying you can call people on

  it try it

  no oh how we miss the days of the Nextel


  yeah no it's not it's not push-to-talk

  if you just leave the call connected all

  the time you don't even have to push you

  set up a WebEx in each car Jesus now

  definitely going to bed

  Damien Shaw writes Google home allows

  for both compound commands and

  context-sensitive commands I do this all

  the time quote play something and set

  volume to five it gets it every time and

  quote Google what's the weather in San

  Diego - I just said it oh well sorry


  hey cylinder what's the weather in San

  Diego today a few seconds later

  hey cylinder what about tomorrow and at

  all that also always works for Damian

  Shaw yeah I mean this was my bad because

  I said last episode that none of the

  cylinder supported multiple commands in

  one sentence I'm not talking about a

  follow up like afterwards I'm talking

  about like play Weezer and the volume to

  five or you know make a pasta time or

  five minutes and a sauce timer for 20

  minutes like stuff like that like that's

  having all that be in one command and I

  don't even know it did anybody say if it

  can do multiple name timers I don't even

  know anyway it doesn't matter it

  apparently Google home can do it with

  certain commands so oh well I made a


  I wish Siri and the Amazon service would

  add this that's and this was in the

  content of Amazon adding there

  they're like follow up listening feature

  to the echo of like it'll it'll listen

  for a few seconds after you give after

  it does a command to see if you have any

  more to say like you know that's that's

  a BS non feature but multiple command

  support in one sentence is a great

  feature and something that we've

  definitely needed I thought nobody had

  it turns out Google has it done

  so the thing about these cylinders is

  like they don't really have a

  particularly discoverable interface

  that's one of the reasons that Amazon

  emails you all the time to tell you all

  the new things that you can do with your

  cylinder because otherwise how would you

  know like it just sits there you know it

  doesn't it has no apparent way to

  communicate to you that it is now has it

  now has a new capability on this topic

  are you sure Marko that your Amazon

  cylinder can't do compound commands like

  when's the last time you tried that's a

  reasonable question I don't I guess I'm

  not sure I I'd the last time I tried was

  probably months ago and May they could

  have added it last week I don't I don't

  actually read those emails I think I

  might have done multiple timers in one

  sentence but I don't know like I treat

  my google cylinders like every time I

  talk to them I'm daring them not to

  understand me I say things in an

  informal way in a more complicated way

  than then you know I don't not in the

  more complicated but that I don't

  simplify them I don't dumb it down to

  say okay cylinder I know you won't

  understand me so let me explain to you

  very clearly and slowly what I want I

  just say it and which is daring it's

  like go ahead screw up don't and most of

  the time a the succeeds and that's that

  little weird game that I play with it is

  part of my satisfaction with the product

  part of the satisfaction is the

  challenge and seeing the challenge be

  met by this little thing in my house

  right but on the discoverability front I

  think actually one of the pieces of

  feedback that we got that may not have

  made into notes is that what the heck is

  it called home pod also can do compound

  things or at least play music or other

  audio and issue a volume level at the

  same time and they can expect what I was

  saying it's not always clear what these

  cylinders can do for us and the only way

  to really find out is to try and the

  problem with trying is it fail if it

  falls on its face you're like oh my

  stupid silicon cylinder can't do that


  two months later maybe it can do that

  thing and you have no idea so I guess

  the moral is I mean I don't know what

  the solution is here because Amazon the

  emails one approach just keep spamming

  people so they realize you can ask get

  facts about dogs right but I don't think

  that's a great solution either you

  certainly don't want these cylinders


  when you you know wake up and tell the

  turn on the lights to throw in a

  sentence or two about these new

  capabilities although if I can imagine

  like in sci-fi movies and in bed

  infomercials made by people who don't

  know how actual people act soldiers

  would always be telling you about the

  stuff they can do and you'd be delighted

  like you know the sci-fi actor wakes up

  and you know his futuristic apartment

  and all his devices Tom I just wanted

  you to know the last night I had new

  capabilities and blah blah blah and he's

  like oh thank thank you cylinder but in

  real life you need to smash the thing

  with a hamburger in the morning like

  that huh and in vert aizen's people are

  so happy to hear the new capabilities

  that the refrigerator has no they're not

  happy they don't want to know so I don't

  know what the solution is certainly when

  you wake up like your five-year-old

  doesn't say father I can now understand

  compounds like they just grow and get

  better and we expect them to you know to

  grow and get better but appliances

  especially appliances that we don't see

  doing software update or appliances that

  get enhanced by changes on the server

  that really are invisible to us like it

  doesn't affect our you know it's I don't

  know it's it's tricky maybe they should

  have little tiny brain icons that grow

  as they get smarter and they're becoming

  you wake up this morning say Oh cylinder

  I see your brain is a little bit bigger

  that's great why not not an actual

  solution just kidding also I feel like

  you know like the like supporting

  compound commands is not a binary like

  yes it does now no it doesn't thing like

  people said the home pod can do like you

  know play a playlist at music level but

  can it do like set a timer for 10

  minutes and turn on the office lights

  and can Google home do that I don't know

  like one of the biggest use cases I

  think for multiple commands would be

  turning on or off multiple smart home

  things at once that don't already have a

  pre-existing group so you could say like

  you know hey cylinder turn on lights in

  office bedroom and kitchen that might be

  three commands by you know normally

  three separate commands that's pretty

  tedious but if we're you can say like

  hey cylinder turn off outside lights and

  lamps in living room like you know can

  you do that can you say turn on kitchen

  lights and start a pasta timer for five

  minutes like can you can you combine

  domains in one sentence like this it's

  one of those things like again like this

  is this is the kind of thing humans

  expect to work at some point and

  I were smarter but the good thing is

  that these assistants are getting

  smarter at some of them faster paces

  than others let's be honest to your

  Apple has lagging behind here here

  pretty badly and in like rate of

  improvement but you know the Amazon and

  Google services are doing great they're

  really improving very quickly and so

  that's that's promising like it wouldn't

  surprise me if they get there fairly

  soon one other little nitpick while

  we're on the the cylinder thing and this

  is this is something that bothers me

  about Siri that the Amazon service will

  interpret things you say literally if

  you if you give like an unusual phrasing

  so for instance if I say if I want a

  timer for like if I'm starting this

  happening of the night I was starting

  some something in you know some rice or

  pasta or something in a pot and I also

  had some I was gonna put some french

  fries in the oven so I asked the Amazon

  cylinder you know start a timer for

  Frank for you know rice for 25 minutes

  and I said start a start french fries

  timer for 10 minutes and so what I

  wanted was in 10 minutes for it to say

  start the French fries so it's weird you

  have to say start a start french fries

  timer the Amazon servers gets that right

  every single time it always knows what I

  mean by that it's like treating it as a

  string literal it's like this is the

  name of the timer you are so you are

  creating here and it gets it right every

  time it's one of those one of those

  things like John said you know like like

  we're like you know you're almost trying

  to trip it up like by trying this kind

  of thing that's the opposite of what is

  that because you're playing like a sex

  adventure yes

  like you want a thing that works like a

  programmer and you're a programmer and

  you're like you see the the placeholders

  in your head and you're telling them in

  because you know how they'll be

  interpreted but I would argue the note

  human speaks to another intelligent

  thing like that you're playing the game

  that is your cylinder which is fine I

  think it's a useful feature people want

  to play that game but it would be better

  like if you if you were talking to

  another human you probably would have

  said don't let me forget to start the

  French fries in 10 minutes or I'd like

  something like that or remind me in 10

  minutes to start the French for it but I

  was avoiding remind me because it sounds

  more like the creative reminder right

  like you're good oh my

  and timers or whatever it you just

  wanted to know what you mean or tell me

  in ten minutes you know whatever it is

  like but that's what that's what timers

  are like named timers are basically

  telling you this thing at this like in

  this time and it's great it's a very

  very useful function and it's awesome to

  like you to hear the people off and say

  your start french fries timer is done

  like that's it's great because it

  reminds you like what to do and that

  staggering things out that's awkward to

  when it says your start french fries

  timer I don't want I wanted to say it's

  time to start the French fries but it

  doesn't doesn't understand the name of

  the timer like so I think the problem is

  in these sort of this weird area where

  you can say it in a vague way but it

  doesn't understand what you meant and it

  tries to be smart lots of people cut

  were complaining about Syria trying to

  get it to play our home pod trying to

  get play songs that have weird titles

  that themselves might be interpretable

  as commands and they just really can't

  get it to play those songs are those

  albums because there's no way to get it

  to your point to get it to understand

  that it's a string literal that is a

  placeholder you know it's to get it to

  parse as initiation command placeholder

  for thing for song name and then verb

  right and it just it stubbornly refuses

  to do it and it's trying to be flexible

  so we can like interpret meaning or

  whatever but if there's any ambiguity it

  falls over whereas the Alexa one is very

  cut and dried and as there are certain

  forms that you can put it in certain

  places where expects the placeholders

  and if you play that text adventure game

  with your cylinder it has predictable

  functionality like it doesn't vary like

  with the songs with home pod some songs

  you could say at a million different

  ways because there's no way that song

  title is potentially misinterpreted but

  other songs that screws up whereas with

  the placeholder format anything you put

  in there like I bet you could get your

  cylinder to say start a timer for a

  start a timer for 10 minutes for 10

  minutes like you know I mean you could

  nest it and it would still like figure

  it out because it's probably just doing

  a very naive text of speech then parsing

  that and speaking of naive Texas speech

  on the thing you're getting at before

  about doing compound things even Google

  is not above punting on this like they

  have a feature of the home pod where you

  essentially set up macros you're like

  look if there's a series of commands the

  you could issue but you don't want to

  say all those words because weird and

  awkward just tell us what you're gonna


  and when you say that we will do all

  these other things that's really cool

  and I mean it's not it's like the most

  brain-dead thing ever it's like we the

  ones were they they had just put a

  teepee so I can say hey so under a

  teepee and it says played the latest

  episode of access it's just a shorter

  way to say that but literally any list

  of commands you can do it's just macro

  expansion very simple macro expansion if

  it was truly intelligent you wouldn't

  have to do that you would be able to

  converse with it and shorten what you

  say and based on how often you ask for a

  thing that similar to this blah blah

  we're not there yet

  right but I'm just showing that Google

  eventually says the utility of letting

  program when you pay people essentially

  make macros of their own design and then

  we'll just dumb we use only yeah it's a

  speech-to-text and then map it onto one

  of these macros and if it matches one of

  them will do that thing it it provides

  utility while they work on providing the

  actual intelligence at some point in the

  future no I mean and that's useful and

  like and I would also posit that you

  know I bet Google home customers are

  more programmers than average but but

  also like you know so going back to my

  to my you know started a start french

  fries timer like that's that sounds you

  know contrived in an edge case but what

  I really get tripped up by places where

  Siri does Co Siri seems to make no

  effort to to understand that kind of

  syntax but that can also trip up

  legitimate you know quote legitimate use

  cases so for instance the other day I

  said I asked Siri to remind me in things

  to add the 12 volt battery to my Tesla

  repair now it's the the word add Siri

  interprets that as to add to the to-do

  list so even though I said remind me to

  add this blah blah blah it ignored the

  fact that there was already another word

  in the sentence that said that remind me

  to remind me basically like it didn't it

  didn't figure that out so when I said

  remind me to add 12 a battery to my

  Tesla repair I got some you know some

  tasks and things have said something

  along the lines of like you know 12 volt

  battery to my test

  pair like it and it's didn't parse a

  sentence correctly at all and I also

  have inconsistencies there where when

  you're asking you know to remind you

  about about something you will you will

  usually put some kind of word between

  remind me like to so remind me to take

  the trash out most of the time Siri

  parses that as add a reminder with the

  text take the trash out sometimes

  it parses it as editor minder with the

  text to take the trash out so we'll have

  a reminder that says to take the trash

  out and it's like literally the same

  thing sometimes we'll do that sometimes

  won't it's just like this is one of

  those things like whatever whatever

  algorithms and machine learning Siri is

  doing to parse sentence structure seems

  like it's significantly behind the

  others and also in consistently so much

  of Siri and it's just kind of I don't

  know it's frustrating like that because

  that that seemed this seems like easy

  stuff like basics of adding reminders

  and setting timers and stuff like that

  like this is what Syria was demoed with

  in 2011 like this this should be easier

  and better by now and we know from the

  other assistants that it can be better

  cuz there's our better and so this is

  like it's easy yet one more thing that

  just like it's a little like paper cut

  every time I use Siri that like one of

  these dumb things happens and the other

  ones it doesn't I think that was the

  reminders thing of where it thinks

  you're trying to add something to a list

  was like one of my original Siri

  complaints may be on this program maybe

  in an earlier podcast I had the exact

  same problem the thing I wanted to

  remind me about it stubbornly insisted

  on interpreting as an attempt to either

  create or add to some unknown list that

  I didn't exist because I was trying to

  maintain a list and remind myself to put

  things on the list that was kind of like

  you were doing and it just just could

  not handle it and even even today when I

  do reminders sometimes I'll do multiple

  tries and I'll have to go into text

  adventure mode where I'm just like look

  I'm gonna I'm gonna give a name of this

  reminder I'm not gonna have like normal

  syntax I'm gonna be like remind me and

  then a phrase that design may you ously

  interpreted as text it has to appear

  there but it's not the way

  want to phrase it like just enough so

  that I will beat the text adventure but

  also not so much that when I go look at

  the reminder won't understand what I was

  doing and and this is like here's

  another speaking at sentencing I've

  always loved the feature of Siri I'm

  assuming as a feature of Siri where I

  would say I would create a reminder of

  something involving one of a family

  members name and I assume it would look

  in contacts for the spelling all right

  like my daughter is Kate but she spells

  with the C and it would transcribe it as

  like a K but then it would like do some

  processing and change it to a C because

  did I'm assuming knows that I have that

  listed as a nickname for my daughter in

  my contacts and I appreciated that

  features like that I'm constantly

  talking about this Kate person it's

  never with a K and I'll correct it if it

  transcribes it with the K and I like the

  fact that it seemed like it had figured

  out Oh at some point along the line it's

  like I there's no Kate with the K in

  your contacts which would be bad if

  there was I think it should figure it

  anyway but it's ok with ok I'll change

  it to a seat and every time I saw that

  little Kate changes see I'm like oh

  that's nice that's Siri being smart

  again kind of like the Google thing

  where you get like a good feeling from

  using a product that you gave it

  something challenging and it used its

  smarts but lately it's decided to go

  back to K and I'm kind of annoyed that

  I'm like come on

  changed your seat and it just never does

  it stay sit so I go and edit it and I

  change to you know change to I see

  myself and why I don't no no no man just

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  moving on to annoyances and language but

  written language scott-little rights I'm

  almost sure that the you shut down

  dialog as in you shut down your computer

  only happens after the user is forced

  powered off the machine for example in

  the whole system hangs not after a

  kernel panic so in reality the text is

  accurate I could have sworn I tried to

  make this point on the show and either I

  didn't or maybe maybe it hit the editing

  room floor one way or the other but

  that's what I thought too

  and I thought we concluded I was crazy

  you are crazy but maybe not for there's

  a reason so I yeah so yes I was talking

  about how like this dialogue of you shut

  down your computer because of a problem

  infuriated me because that often happens

  when I don't feel that I'm at fault for

  the problem so I think this is correct

  that it does only only come up with like

  an improper shutdown maybe not a kernel

  panic the problem is like there are

  certain situations where you have to for

  shut down the computer because of like a

  bug in Mac OS you know like it won't

  wake from sleep or something like that

  like this happens all the time you know

  well not all the time this happens to

  every Mac person at some point

  especially if you're a laptop person

  this happens a lot especially regarding

  waking from sleep but you know so like

  there there are some times where you

  have to hold down the power button for

  five seconds to get the computer to turn

  off or to turn on and then it says you

  shut down your computer because of so

  it's kind of like it's kind of like

  slapping you in the face it's like well

  it was your problem here third is back

  on me but I didn't write the bug that

  caused my computer's that need to be

  power cycled so I think this is correct

  I think it does only come up when it's

  been improperly shut down but I still

  think that it's a bad it's it's bad like

  language design to throw the action on

  the user to say you shut down the

  computer like you can just say the

  computer was shut down improperly or the

  computer didn't shut down correctly it's

  not like you can say you can reword that

  in so many ways that that don't like

  ascribe the the purpose of this to the

  user cause like the user at that point

  is probably not very happy with the

  computer because the computer just did

  something wrong like the computer just

  like malfunctioned and then you then the

  computer says you didn't do this right

  so it's not a good it's not a good time

  to do that so I think the wording

  actually is reasonably fair for the

  thing where it was usually she ate it

  and we got a lot of feedback for people

  saying that's when they see the

  satellite but we also got feedback from

  people saying I did not turn this thing

  off I didn't unplug it I didn't hold

  down the power key and yet I saw this


  and it like I said it can't know whether

  you are the one that caused whatever

  cleanup things not to have been cleaned

  up so that on boot-up it finds this one

  cleaned up file whatever flag thing at

  you whatever whatever heuristic he uses

  to determine that it didn't get the

  shutdown proper the last time there are

  a number of things that can cause that

  to happen only a couple of which are the

  human doing something and it has no idea

  what you did so I think this dialogue

  still does show up in cases where there

  actually was no user eyes like if you

  have some kind of cat even if you had

  some kind of catastrophic crash that

  throws you back to login window it might

  not have you know have the time to clean

  up the things or the processes that died

  our crash couldn't have cleaned up the

  little things so that when you log back

  in it throws this dollar because again

  this is asking you do you want to open

  the applications that are open when you

  shut down right like telling you if you

  want to resource state just in case one

  of those applications is one of the

  things that caused the crash or

  something right so it's a good dialogue

  like something like this should be there

  but I don't think it can know that you

  shut down your computer I think it does

  guess right a lot of the time and I

  think it's not actually telling you that

  the problem was yours or that you

  shouldn't have shut down the computer

  but it is a little bit more accusatory

  than it probably could be because it

  just can't be sure that you found on

  your computer somebody did might have

  been you what if your different person

  turned yeah turned on the computer and

  the person who actually showed it down

  left now you bring yelled up or shutting

  down the computer but you didn't shut

  down the guy who was here two seconds

  ago did so probably not the best wording

  but it is at least a little bit

  potentially more accurate than we

  thought it was yeah what if you have

  like the world's worst office mates

  we're roommates he came to come by and

  hold down power for five seconds a

  computer sometimes I remember holding

  them power it doesn't reboot holding

  down power just turns the thing off so

  you could you could someone someone

  could someone on your family that's a

  could be annoyed at the computer or

  something hung or crash or whatever and

  they hold them the power button for five

  seconds and the thing turns off I think

  that's what it does right just turns off

  yeah I do that right yeah and then they

  leave and go to sleep next morning the

  whole family wakes up someone else goes

  to the computer it hits the spacebar

  it doesn't wake up and go huh and

  hopefully they find the power switch

  which used to be on the keyboard which

  was super convenient and the thing

  starts up and it says you should tell

  the computer probably like what do you

  mean I just woke up I didn't shut down

  the computer because of

  problem so again the dialog box can't

  no-show could probably probably should

  err on the side of being uh unassuming

  your innocence I love how much time

  we've given this dialog box because it

  drives me nuts every time and me Lisa

  doesn't have a typo like Disk Utility

  yeah right like maybe in like you know

  Peak Sierra or whatever the hell comes

  next I don't know my California maybe

  somebody will reword this dialogue in

  the English localization to not do this

  stupid blame thing okay we need to move

  on so let's talk about gdpr which i

  already forgot the acronym but it's

  basically the you are in control of your

  data law that we discussed last week

  erin power writes in with regard to the

  cookie law in gdpr

  i think that the problem is the

  companies especially american companies

  don't understand what the law covers and

  put warnings when there is no need or

  don't put warnings in when they're

  required so to talk about the cookie law

  then that doesn't apply only to cookies

  according to Erin it applies to any form

  of persistent storage like local storage

  it also doesn't apply to first-party

  cookies so like a cookie to keep you

  logged in it only applies in their

  cookies from a third party like google

  analytics now according to Erin the

  cookie law was weak however gdpr is a

  much stricter and more consequential law

  in there's bigger penalties if you don't

  follow it so there's a lot of bullets

  here I'm assuming because one of you put

  this in the show notes I am supposed to

  be reading them so I you supposed to

  learn how to summarize the challenges

  you are the chief you're not just a

  summarizer Casey you're the chief

  summarizer in chief I'm pulling at my

  tie I'm pulling at my tie right now I'm

  not just encase oh basically any of the

  personal information that you give to a

  company it is qualified under gdpr the

  company can't hold on to it unless

  there's a reasonable reason to do so

  they need to absolutely get your consent

  to hold on to it and with kids it

  requires their parent's permission which

  apparently must be verifiable then once

  you say no I don't want you to have my

  data anymore then the data must be at

  least slightly anonymized such that a

  single piece of data isn't enough to

  identify you

  and then you can also ask at any time

  for what personal data the company has

  for you and also you can get them to

  erase your data and inform third parties

  that they need to erase their data now

  the real kicker though is that if they

  don't do this the fines can be up to 20

  million euros or 4% of the company's

  worldwide turnover whatever that means

  but I'm assuming that's a lot and it's

  not whichever is lower it's whichever is

  higher turnover is one of those I'm

  assuming it's a British ISM but they

  just mean revenue four percent of the

  company's revenue in americanese thank

  you so basically this could amount to a

  whole crapload of money and that's why

  everyone especially in Europe who's

  actually paying attention to this is

  freaking out and not to say that

  Americans shouldn't be freaking out

  because we will be held to this as well

  but it seems that the Europeans are way

  ahead of this and I believe this comes

  online that's a poor choice of words but

  I believe this becomes law and and it

  can be enforced sometime in the next few

  months I'm not mistaken this is like you

  know last episode like I had read some

  about it I was a little familiar with it

  I should have been a lot more familiar

  with it this is like the kind of thing

  like I don't know why I'm only hearing

  about this like a month or two before it

  goes live but I'm glad I heard about it

  at least a month or two before it was

  live because you can make your

  onboarding screen right

  I'm not wall ready I mean I have a login

  screen already and and and I'm like I'm

  married like overcast has already

  complied with a lot of this already just

  by having fairly reasonable practices

  not closing that much data in the first


  having reasonable security practices and

  and having like a very clear privacy

  policy like I was I was kind of already

  inadvertently implementing about 2/3 of

  the stuff I needed to do so it's it's

  not a huge deal for me but this this is

  a huge deal for lots of for pretty much

  anybody who has runs any kind of web

  service or app that collects data and

  and it's not because it isn't just you

  know Casey you said like data that

  people enter that's not necessarily the

  limit it's just data that you collect

  and store about people so it's or

  analyze about

  people like if you don't support like I

  think if you analyze it anyway it's

  complicated I suggest anybody who who

  runs a web service or an app that is

  responsible for it I I strongly suggest

  you look into gdpr

  now like very very very quickly because

  there are a lot of ramifications it's

  pretty cool it's pretty big it's not it

  does not just apply to European

  companies because it applies to any

  company worldwide that stores data about

  European users or European citizens

  which is pretty much every web service

  unless you block Europe for some dumb

  reason but this it's gonna apply to

  pretty much everybody and so that's this

  is like it's way more it's way stronger

  than that cookie law because the cookie

  law I think only basically applied or at

  least was ever enforced for European

  countries if it was enforced anywhere

  ever but but it would you know only

  European websites would display those

  cookie warnings but this is way bigger

  than that

  and and this this will affect tech stuff

  worldwide and you know in the context of

  a lot of the stuff going on recently

  with with tech stuff especially like

  this horrible Facebook Cambridge

  analytics you know horrible scandal BS

  them I mean look Facebook's a horrible

  company I don't know yeah it's like not

  a lot of this is new or shocking to me

  it's just really horrible and sad and

  just disgusting but anyway this caught

  this law will have a pretty big impact

  on a lot of the worst stuff about the

  web and it's probably gonna be a pretty

  good positive impact it's probably well

  not good for them but but screw them

  it's probably gonna have a really good

  impact for you know people who respect

  their users and those users who want to

  be respected so it's it's it's gonna be

  a good thing

  I wish there were more resources online

  so far about you know how to comply

  without having to like higher GDP our

  compliance specialist too you know for a

  lot of money that you probably can't get

  in late April to you know to help you

  out but it it's going to change a lot of

  things if it's enforced and the the EU

  is you know usually pretty good at like

  you know like when they when they pass

  consumer protection regulations

  they tend to enforce them so the this

  this should be interesting it's probably

  gonna be a really big deal and it's

  gonna be a a slight pain in the butt to

  get some of like the you know like the

  boilerplate stuff but it's all like from

  what I've seen so far most of its pretty

  common-sense stuff it's gonna be a pain

  for bigger companies I think but but for

  for small companies it seems like it's

  actually not that big of a deal

  cool I mean it's intense but it's for

  the best

  Nick temp Ellis writes in to give you an

  example of the teeth of this law this is

  still the GDP are for the Cambridge

  analytical breech Facebook would be

  fined up to eight hundred and thirteen

  million dollars just for not notifying

  its users so like we were saying oh boy

  this is the real deal yeah because

  there's also provisions about you know

  what like first of all has security

  measures that you you know security

  level you know responsibility that you

  have to maintain to protect the user

  data you have to like keep logs of who

  accesses the user data in your company

  so like you know you can't say oh we

  didn't know it was some in some interim

  was copying all the files like you have

  to keep logs and key bought its their

  stuff about that their stuff about you

  know if you have a data breach how you

  have to notify people you know stuff

  like that what you have to do so there's

  there's a it's it's very wide reaching

  it's a very very big policy change that

  is seemingly mostly or entirely like

  pretty good common-sense stuff it's like

  if if you think like how should things

  be with regard to safekeeping and

  collecting personal data like most of

  it's pretty common-sense stuff so again

  I I think this is gonna be potentially a

  very big thing yeah great continuing on

  AWACS writes a key part of GDP are is

  that the company collecting the personal

  data is directly responsible for any

  leak or misuse it can't shift the blame

  to a contractor partner a third party

  and we see that a lot in the US where oh

  there was this big leak actually Apple

  just recently I was a month or two ago

  had what was it it was like the

  bootloader for an old version of iOS or

  something like that I'm sure I have the

  details slightly wrong yeah it was the

  source code - yeah the source code -

  like I boot whatever

  I guess I guess the bootloader I don't

  actually know that much about iOS

  internals but yeah the source code to I

  boot like an old version of it from a

  few years back leaked and they said that

  was apparently like an intern had copied

  the entire source tree and taken it

  right so hey waxes point here is that

  you can't just pass the buck and be like

  Oh Joe schmo's consulting firm is the

  reason that this all leaked go talk to

  them it's still your problem if you are

  that's an interesting theory I'm not

  sure how well that law works in in the

  American legal system though because you

  know that any company the size of Apple

  if they contract any other company that

  basically says oh and by the way if the

  work you do for us causes us to get sued

  you agree to pay all damages you can't

  get blood from a stone but at the very

  least you know Apple can't shift the

  blame to the third party but it can

  shift all of the penalties to the third

  party until the third party disappears

  and basically until they get run out of

  money which may happen pretty quickly

  but that's generally how big companies

  protect themselves is that if there's

  some law that makes Apple liable they

  shift as much of that liability as

  possible to the small contractor company

  and then they just get whatever is left

  over on top of them right now finally

  Michael Saji writes gdpr is also

  incredibly technology agnostic and that

  it applies to everything everywhere and

  it's conceived of as a regulation that

  nobody will ever be able to comply with

  I can't state whether or not that's true

  or false but that was their particular

  opinion so that's another view of like

  sort of wide-reaching

  regulation that it starts to seem like

  well this is so big how could you ever

  comply with it cuz it's so vague and so

  far-reaching that like a motivated

  enforcer could find literally any

  company not in compliance of some

  portion of it right because it tries to

  be so it tries to not fall into the trap

  of the cookie law or if I want to the

  trap of the interpretation of the cookie

  law anyway where it seems narrowly

  defined and it's just an annoyed you get

  all the the negatives the annoyance and

  you don't actually get any the benefits

  because everything else you can you know

  skirt around it as technology evolves

  and this tries to be so broad and so

  far-reaching and apply to everything you

  say and do and it's so hard to comply

  with it's just like how how can I ever

  comply with the break there's just too

  many regulations

  but there are industries that are like

  that already that even in the u.s. that

  we you know we managed to survive so

  healthcare is one with as a bunch of

  laws related to health care and

  protection of information you know like

  all right you know finance you got PCI 4

  for finance for basic you know credit

  card processing stuff you've got HIPAA

  for health information and other

  personally identifiable information and

  stuff like that and those are similarly

  weirdly acronym fairly wide reaching

  regulations that I think you could find

  any company out of compliance with like

  HIPAA is very very broad and even a very

  you know diligent company trying to find

  to follow all the rules inevitably

  there's some place where there's some

  kind of a breach the purpose of these

  laws is not to say everyone is going to

  be 100% in compliance otherwise the law

  is useless if people are even 50% in

  compliance it's so much better than the

  status quo and that the law has to be

  sort of enforced responsibly where I

  mean it's kind of like I think it's a

  terrible analogy for lots of reasons but

  it something that people will be

  familiar with speed limits on American

  roads anyway everyone is breaking the

  speed limit all the time but through

  selective enforcement the speed limit

  allows the police to pull over someone

  who is really driving dangerously at a

  very high speed that's you know not safe

  for conditions while letting all the

  people who are five miles an hour over

  the limit on the highway sale by in some

  ways that is like giving too much power

  to the enforcers that basically everyone

  is not in compliance all the time so you

  can arrest anybody but the reason it's a

  bad analogy is because these I think we

  would agree that some data protection is

  good for you know we want we want our

  data to be protected in some way we

  don't want companies to be able to do

  whatever they want with it so we will

  take any amount and improvement over the

  status quo even if it means that a ill

  motivated enforcer of this law could

  punitive lien for us pretty much any

  enforce these guidelines on any company

  and say oh you're you've missed

  in this one little corner or whatever so

  I don't think it's ideal but I think you

  know again with HIPPA health care

  companies are not going out of business

  because they're zealous HIPAA

  enforcement by a giant fleet of you know

  government officers wandering over all

  the businesses in the world it's just

  not how it works even just they're

  outnumbered for one thing like there's

  more companies and there are people

  going around to check for HIPAA

  compliance right it's more like when

  your company is already doing enough

  terrible things to get the attention of

  law enforcement that's when this stuff

  come back comes back to bite you and I

  know I'm gonna say that's a good thing

  because again I think it's open for

  abuse but it's better than the status

  quo where you can do whatever you want

  and keep it secret and nothing ever

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  Squarespace alright so we have good news

  for Marco we have a solution for your

  keyboard woes you can you can quit

  whining and complaining Marco because

  adolescent patented Apple's patented a

  scream based MacBook keyboard that will

  feel like it's real check that out how

  excited are you my friend try to contain

  your excitement and keep it professional

  if you please this is this is my

  excitement you know you know what Apple

  also thinks they've released is a

  keyboard that works and is good then

  they see they think that they think this

  will feel real they just like they think

  the neck Book Pro is from 2016 is

  awesome well I mean like this this is

  definitely reads to me as one of those

  patents before you patent every idea you

  have yeah whether you whether you've

  gotten it to work or not because our

  patent system is dumb and this is what

  you're forced to do with our dumb patent

  system and so when I look at patents I'm

  putting them into the bins of that's the

  thing that could conceivably ship

  because I think they could have actually

  figured out a way to make that and the

  other bin is that's an idea that someone

  had some time that they probably never

  got to work but that they patented

  anyway because you have to patent

  everything these patents are done and

  this definitely falls into the second

  bit where I you know as we've discussed


  Apple has on-screen keyboards and

  considering future on-screen keyboards

  is an obvious thing to do right

  especially for devices like iPads where

  you want the keyboard to be small and

  imagine if when you're not using a

  keyboard you repurpose that as a second

  screen it's an obvious thing that they

  should be investigating and of course

  there's downsides on-screen keyboard so

  you think they would investigate how can

  we make on-screen keyboards less crappy

  and here's a patent describing a couple

  of ways and I was amazed like since

  patents since you don't actually have to

  have like a working version of anything

  or understand how you're gonna

  manufacture this is mostly just an idea

  which so I patented um I I was surprised

  by how unappealing I found the ideas in

  this patent because normally you make

  the ideas like imagine if there was a

  keyboard that did this and that and the

  other thing like wow that would be cool

  too bad we have no idea how to do that

  huh anyway all the ideas this one

  sounded awful to me like even if you

  could good so the idea is it's a picture

  of a keyboard but we all know the type

  you've got a picture of a keyboard is

  great cuz you can't feel the keys and

  you can't rest your fingers on the keys

  like you can't keep are like we all know

  what the disadvantage we all have

  on-screen keyboards especially on iPads

  they're disadvantages them so how do we

  overcome those disadvantages and this

  patent has a couple of ways one way is

  that the screen would actually smush you

  in when you press it to let you know

  when you've hit something and then we

  give you feedback that feels like a

  button doesn't it I cannot imagine a

  screen that I can smush in with my

  finger and it pushes back on me a little

  bit feeling like a button it would feel

  like a screen that's too much is it a

  little bit well to be fair I mean that's

  what the trackpad buttons do but it

  doesn't deform underneath your fingertip

  it deforms across the entire axis like

  if you look at the pictures this is the

  idea of like you are pressing I and you

  don't have to imagine how this would be

  because just think back to your palm

  devices that you all had these are all

  old like me they did not have capacitive

  touchscreens they had pressure-sensitive

  touchscreens which meant that you would

  have to squish the screen in with your

  finger or your fingernail or a stylus to

  cause it to register any kind of input

  so the screen would smoosh in just at

  the point of contact so if you pressed

  with the plastic stylus it would make it

  a little dimple there if you press with

  your finger would make a little you know

  it felt nothing like a button it did

  this question very much this seems like

  an exaggerated version of that and this

  all in theory this would also solve the

  problem of oh I can't rest my fingers on

  the home keys because if you rest your

  fingers all of a sudden you're typing

  it's like well now you're not typing on

  this keyboard you're only typing when

  you smush which talked about an

  unsatisfying like if you don't like the

  the low travel like buttons on the the

  current Apple laptop keyboards imagining

  having some kind of squishy membrane

  I think your little grubby fingertips

  into I don't know really hold up and the

  second one is you can't feel the edges

  of the keys when everything's flat one

  way to get around that is to have the

  screen bulge out around the key cap so

  it's like this lumpy island of mentos or

  something hey lumpy little squishy I was

  gonna say pustules but stress bumps

  let's go with that we're gonna go Kerri

  yeah is that I don't even know stress

  man is that move on back to work

  probably anyway one of them early man

  shows that wouldn't feel too good either

  another strategy they have is use I

  think it's a electrostatic or something

  use use some kind of electrostatic

  charge to make it to make you be able to

  feel the edges because there's a

  different sensation in your fingers as

  you glide across the keys and that I

  don't want any kind of tingly

  electrostatic anything telling me where

  the edges of anything are on a screen so

  I think this is a patent full of bad

  ideas that I hope they never make and

  honestly if you if you gave me like you

  know you know ILM and a movie and said

  make any kind of futuristic looking

  keyboard input that you want for a movie

  thing like the only thing that occurs to

  me that would be acceptable would be

  that the screen is made up of like

  little nano machines that rearrange

  themselves to become essentially a

  mechanical keyboard when you want to use

  a mechanical keyboard and then when you

  don't want to use it the little nano

  machines rearrange themselves to become

  a screen because if you're going to

  stupidly confine yourself to keyboard

  input as your futuristic way of getting

  text into a computer pressing a button

  with your fingers is a really good

  solution and so I would have to have the

  screen change into an actual button like

  a thing that moves up and down and has

  edges and then have it change back into

  a screen that's it like I don't have any

  better ideas on unlimited technology

  obviously the better idea is not to type

  right not to do anything like that I was

  cracks me up about a anime series that

  neither one of you that's heard of that

  I enjoy ghost in the shell' was a movie

  and there's a television series and

  other spin-offs from it

  and one of the signature visual flares

  is they have these you know sort of

  cyborg people or robot people sitting in

  front of computer terminals and because

  they're not regular people like you know

  their hands are all robotic hands and

  they look like normal hands but then

  they put their hands over the keyboard

  but now since they're robots their hands

  kind of like open up and fold out and

  explode and these huge tentacles come

  out of them where their fingers were and

  those tentacles fly over the key

  services typing faster than any human

  can type across this giant keypad right

  like that's their you know superpower

  it's like a human can only type this

  fast but they're little meat fingers but

  look at the these ghost in the shell'

  cyborg machines they could type much

  faster because they have all these metal

  tendrils that go out all over the

  keyboard it's like if you're a cyborg

  just plug into the rs-232 port for

  crying out typing keys on the keyboard

  like this this is a control room

  designed for these robot cyborgs

  thingies they can just connect with a

  serial cable they don't need to press

  buttons anyway I'm digressing but yeah

  so this patent does not describe a

  product I would like to use and it does

  not describe a product I think anyone

  would like to use but it does show that

  Apple continues to investigate ways to

  make to be able to have screen when you

  want a screen and keyboard when you want

  a keyboard there is one good idea in

  this patent they fixed the arrow keys

  they have the correct arrow key layout

  in the patent illustration yeah but if

  you get that layout you have to stand up

  out of your seat and say McDonald's I

  get the reference no I mean this is like

  I just this is potentially cool down the

  road but like I think a concern that I

  have here again this is not gonna be a

  half hour rant a concern I have here is

  like what if what if Apple looks at the

  current problems of the keyboards in the

  laptops and instead of saying wow we

  need to make more reliable key switches

  what if they're like you know there's a

  problem laptop keyboards are unreliable

  how do we get rid of the left key like

  because like this is a really really

  complicated solution to a problem that

  doesn't need to exist and we already

  have way simpler cheaper more robust

  solutions already existing in the world

  for quite some time they're called

  buttons and they're fine like a keyboard

  with key switches has existed for quite

  some time and they're wonderful they're

  proven they're durable they're

  affordable they're repairable it's

  wonderful it's cool that somebody is

  filing patents and doing research in

  these crazy directions I just really

  hope that that's just for a like you

  know files many patents as possible

  purposes not actual future product

  directions because the problem they're

  solving is entirely self created and

  optional it's not cool that the farming

  patents pending suck but we just saw a

  patent for the four key switches last

  show right so they are investigating

  that but I think I think it actually is

  important to investigate ways to make

  on-screen keyboards better because like

  yes it's bad if they think this is a

  replacement for keyboards but we already

  have on-screen keyboards I would like

  those on-screen keyboards to be better

  and I also think replacing those flat

  smart keyboard things on iPads with

  thinner lighter things that can double

  as a second screen when they're not a

  keyboard would give everybody the multi

  pad lifestyle all right and you know I

  think that's worth pursuing if you can

  figure out a way to make a combo

  keyboard screen that is an OK screen and

  a passable keyboard that's worth

  investigating not as a replacement for

  your laptops unless it is really

  fantastic but just as a potential

  accessory I know that said this

  particular patent doesn't paint anything

  that I find compelling like but even if

  they could build everything this exactly

  where they said I don't think it would

  be a satisfying keyboard in fact I think

  it might even be less satisfying than

  just a picture of a keyboard on a screen

  that we have now but I do think Apple

  should be investigating this because

  they do have a lot of device to the

  screens they already have on-screen

  keyboard so yes of course they should be

  investigating ways to make them better

  and every way they investigate whether

  turns out to be a turkey or not they're

  gonna patent it by by the way let's

  appreciate all the ways that patent

  diagrams are ridiculous there's of

  course the classic patent hands where

  anytime you see a hand in a patent it

  looks in human and weird they do pretty

  good these fingers look kind of like

  finger so I'm proud of them there but

  then the keyboard control isn't next to

  the space bar what the hell like you

  have a keyboard right in front you

  probably when you're making this diagram

  like just look down control isn't next

  to the keyboard and they didn't label

  all the modifiers anyway they just

  labeled some of them I'm gonna label

  control and you know what controls next

  to the space bar right on the Mac okay

  let's do that

  nope Oh John oh my word

  speaking of Apple making things

  apparently they're making their own

  displays so we got word over the last

  few days that Apple is trying to do

  micro LED which is I guess a also

  organic but different than OLED display

  technology and apparently somewhere in

  California and in in cahoots with

  somewhere in Taiwan if I recall

  correctly they are trying to in-house

  develop a brand new display technology

  and the theory goes that they will

  figure out how to create it figure out

  how to manufacture it and then throw it

  over the wall to some other company like

  Samsung or something or perhaps Foxconn

  to actually build these in volumes so

  they're not getting into the

  manufacturing business but they are

  getting deeper into the creation of

  hardware specifically displays business

  and in a move that surprises pretty much

  nobody I think this is a good idea I

  like the sound of this I don't

  personally have too much more to say

  about it but I'm assuming one of you do

  so Marco thoughts it's I think it's a

  good idea for looking into this it you

  know the the screen is such a critical

  part of their of all of their products

  really exactly looks like the home pod

  in the iPod shuffle tomatoes anymore the

  screen is so important and especially

  like with with modern high end OLED

  screens that's every Apple watch and the

  iPhone 10 and every touch bar and

  presumably more products you know as

  time goes on because OLED is pretty


  the problem is that if there aren't that

  many OLED manufacturers it's pretty much

  like Samsung and LG and LG

  seems to do really well in TV o LEDs but

  seems to do pretty poorly in like

  computer and phone displays now

  Apple has been tied to basically LG and

  Samsung for LCD displays for years like

  I remember like like my my 2012 retina

  MacBook Pro like when I when I made when

  I had my image retention issue and I

  made that that like waffle page

  I had the LG panel and the LG panel was

  the one that had all the image retention

  the Samsung panel didn't like it was

  that kind of thing like you know so like

  they've had like this like kind of two

  supplier thing for a while with OLED for

  the phone it's an incredibly important

  component like like that OLED panel is

  the iPhone 10 like that it's such an

  important component it probably is a

  pretty large price component like

  compared to the other components in it

  it might be the most the most part of

  the whole phone so I can't imagine Apple

  is that happy to rely on just one

  company like those are only made by

  Samsung they can currently only be made

  by Samsung that's probably doesn't make

  Apple feel good from like just reliance

  perspective not to mention the fact that

  that company is Samsung which is I'm

  sure they don't love and yet they buy

  like a lot of flash from Samsung and

  stuff but you can also get flash from

  other people if you need to no one else

  can make that OLED screen that's innate

  that's in the iPhone 10 in addition to

  the fact that they're you know giving

  tons of money to Samsung so like it does

  seem like an obvious thing for Apple to

  try to take display technology in house

  the same way they've taken other

  critical parts like the you know the

  a-series system-on-a-chip and stuff like

  that like that does make total sense

  whether they can do it or not I have no

  idea I don't know anything about this


  it seems really ambitious like there's

  probably a really good reason so far why

  only Samsung can make these you know

  good enough so OLED screens so you know

  Apple you know going into micro LED

  which I've never even heard of until

  this room I didn't even know what was

  maybe that's easier maybe that's you

  know a thing they can do maybe they've

  made some acquisitions towards that I

  have no idea but it's it's a totally

  like defensible and sensible thing for

  them to be doing whether ever amounts to

  anything who knows but it would be kind

  of cool if it did because I can't

  imagine that they love depending on

  Samsung especially just Samsung and

  instead of just instead of like having a

  balance and also other things they have

  taken in-house tend to be pretty awesome

  like what like the Apple version of it

  that comes out later you know it can't

  tends to be better than the

  off-the-shelf stuff at the time you know

  look at what they've done with the

  a-series CPUs what they're doing with

  the GPUs now what they're doing with you

  know with the the SSD controller in the

  Mac Pro like the TE thing the wireless

  Bluetooth W chips like there's there's

  so many different things now that

  they're doing in-house that used to be

  you know third-party manufacturer

  components and the Apple versions

  because of the integration and the

  tie-ins and the optimizations they can

  do are just better so if they can do

  that same thing to displays cool so this

  strategy I don't know if vertically

  integrated is the right word because I

  never went to business school but this

  this strategy of aggressively in the

  whatever timco quotas owning controlling

  the major technologies that make up

  their products is actually more more

  ambitious and more more more aggressive

  than the apple of old even the apple of

  apples heyday which is topic we will

  continue not to get to in this program

  because it used to be that it may be not

  just Apple but across the entire

  industry for computer makers there were

  people who made computers and there were

  people who made parts that go into

  computers and there were a lot of parts

  suppliers for almost every component

  every once in a while there would be a

  part supplier that has something novel


  you know so Sony with 3.5 inch floppy

  disk was it change from the other floppy

  disks it's very a very Sony very Sony

  type change of like we're going to

  improve on this thing we have a new idea

  of how floppy disks could work check

  this out I'm not sure if Sony was the

  maker of that thing would they but the

  Sony 3.5 inch floppy drive is it just to

  give an example and Sony Apple would

  either know that they made it or Sony

  would pitch them on making I think

  there's a good story about the Macintosh

  engineers hiding a Saudi engineer in a

  closet not to let some higher-up know

  that they were looking into getting a

  3.5 inch floppy drive because they were

  still insisting that it had to use a

  five and a quarter which would have been

  so gross

  good job closet hiding people

  we'll put a link to that in the show

  notes and the synergy between hey I'm a

  part supplier and we have this cool idea

  for the thing and hey I'm a person who

  uses parts to make products maybe we can

  make a novel or interesting product or

  line of products out of this and it's a

  good deal for you because you get to

  make you whole product that's a good

  deal for us cuz we came up with this

  novel product and eventually everyone

  can make 3.5 inch floppies because they

  somehow skirted these super stupid world

  of patents enough to be able to have the

  part manufactured across the industry

  the iPod is another example whatever

  that hard drive maker was was an Itachi

  or whoever came up with those really

  teeny tiny hard drives the light bulb

  goes off like what could we do with a

  little hard drive like that it's really

  cool and you get something like the iPod

  right but eventually all sorts of little

  hard drives are available or flash

  replaces the hard drives or like there's

  no sort of monopoly on one kind of thing

  and so Apple in the in the days when

  that was the way the industry worked was

  more or less content to say we're going

  to source our parts from the best parts

  available who has the best screens who

  has the best RAM or the you know the

  best combination of you can manufacture

  a lot of them it has a good price they

  have good performance David Crawley

  control they would shop around from the

  parts suppliers and from product to

  product in year to year they'd pick

  different screens or different Ram or

  different hard drives or different video

  cards back when they weren't really

  super met at Nvidia yeah like and and

  that's how they built their computers

  there's a bunch of companies making

  parts and we will pick among them and

  maybe we'll try to influence their

  roadmaps and maybe once in a while

  someone has a great thing we will

  assemble them into a product the more

  aggressive strategy is to say I see the

  world the parts manufacturers out there

  and they make all sorts of interesting

  things and sometimes every once in a

  while someone has a really cool one that

  sparks our interest and we can make a

  cool product at it but that's not good

  enough we know exactly what we want we

  want to push the envelope in a specific

  direction we have an idea of how this

  could be done better in service of a

  kind of product or even a specific

  product that we have in mind and we're

  not going to try to coerce or cajole

  some other parts maker into making it

  and we're not going to wait around for

  someone else to make it and we're not

  going to buy anyone elses off-the-shelf

  parts and try to cobble together stuff

  off the shelf we're going to design

  our own CPUs for our phones but their

  own GPUs in them and our own weird you

  know step counting neural network

  fingerprint sensing secure Enclave

  whatever like