The Accidental Tech Podcast

267: I Slowly Ate the Crystals


  for you than usb3 like just I know it's

  not quite the same thing but the USBC

  cable that comes with all the MacBook

  Pros is USB to cable yeah I just saw you

  have to you have to make the the product

  not not feel like you're getting

  second-class and everything I feel like

  that and this is a thing that Steve Jobs

  used to do and my alt my impression from

  the outside is that basically through

  sheer force of will because it's what he

  wanted is periodically it would update

  the whole line and they would expunge

  some lesser thing from the entire line

  top to bottom even the cheapest one

  wouldn't have things that Steve Jobs no

  no longer likes he loved to refresh the

  whole line and say it's all gone and in

  Tim Cook era refreshing the whole line

  pretty much never happens like you get

  new things at the top but the middle and

  bottom is just like it's all it's like

  hand-me-downs and secondhand stuff and

  just hanging out down there with

  yesterday's technology you never get the

  clean sweep there you go through it says

  we have a whole new line of products

  from super low price to super high price

  and all of them we talked about this

  world look like a family and are brought

  up to some minimum standard right so

  they're like 2nd gen touch ID should be

  everywhere by now you should not have

  first in tragedy it should be a relic of

  the past but it's like can we save an

  extra dollar 50 yes we can keep shipping

  the old one no don't keep shipping the

  old one like even even the lowest end

  Apple product I feel like has to be

  brought along with all the other tech

  it's some minimum level I don't know I

  the product annoys me a little bit I do

  agree that it's great that it's there

  it's much better than not having it at


  but I'm not gonna like it Tim Cook has

  no minimum standard that's really that's

  like if you look at you know you said

  like you know raise everything to

  minimum standards like he has no minimum

  he he will sell the oldest lowest end

  parts forever

  as long as they're still money to be

  made there that's why like I think if

  Apple was truly a premium company if

  they if they really wanted that quality

  and honestly and I don't say this often

  if Steve was still there I do not think

  they would be selling anything today

  with a spinning disc or a non Retina

  screen yeah as like as a product guys

  Steve so much was it's like and IRA

  tribute to him because he was head

  the last second so many things is like

  you once you have the new thing you

  don't want anyone to have the old thing

  anymore like you you want like obviously

  price is a factor in you can't like

  everyone read in overnight but like once

  you see a Retina screen got can you look

  at an on Retina screen anymore

  and you know as soon as that's feasible

  price-wise you want to put that in

  everything same thing with second gen

  touch ID you know first identity yeah

  it's our fresh cut out but once we get

  the second gen one and the price comes

  down like once it gets close enough it's

  time to refresh the whole line and

  forget about first get in touch okay

  you're never going to see that an Apple

  product again everything is second gen

  just because it was like you feel you

  feel like you want everyone to have your

  new thing and yet Tim does not seem to

  have that instinct he feels no kind of

  shame I must say embarrassment or it's

  that shame or embarrassment it's too

  much it's more like just when you make a

  new thing you want everyone to see your

  bet you want everyone to see the best

  thing that you have to offer and again

  obviously price comes into it everyone

  can't get a p3 screen everyone can get

  promotion right but there's a

  trickle-down effect and a product person

  would be like boy I can't wait until

  it's financially feasible for me to

  offer p3 displays on all our products

  when is that gonna happen

  give me a timeline five years from now

  or whatever let's go for that because

  that will be a milestone like that we

  will have raised the bar on all of our

  products and Tim Cook is like I don't

  care if that ever happens keep shipping

  the TN display on the MacBook Air with

  giant pixels and terrible color

  reproduction as long as people buy it

  that's not I don't like that this is a

  good time to bring up another point that

  we had in the notes here which is that

  Apple's still selling the iPad Mini 4

  for $70 more than this new iPad it has

  an 8 opposed to an a-10 and yep still

  selling it no end in sight and also no

  replacement in sight for that product

  even though I think people would buy it

  but it's good it's got a no Apple pencil

  support and a smaller display and it's

  $70 more this is another this is an

  article from the verge by the way and

  this is another example of Apple's

  product lines being not being coherent

  lay out all the iPads before I mean

  explain to me what the progression is

  through your line or what the use cases

  are and then you get the iPad Mini for

  it but like mm-hmm

  this is like for people who want

  something smaller but want it to be 2

  generations behind are at least

  expensive one and have

  pencil support and I don't know like I

  mean maybe they were in an in-between

  period but we used to say that in

  beginning like oh this line is in a

  transition right but now I feel like we

  have enough time to say all the lines

  are constantly in transition that

  they're never they never get to their

  destination they never get to the point

  where there is a line that makes sense

  and that has good products at all price

  points it's always just this long tail

  of the residue of yesteryear falling off

  the the product line or not falling off

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  let's move on and do some ask ATP shall

  we let's start with Chris oh rebo who

  asks which Apple product when purchased

  from Apple including refurbished and

  clearance provides the most value or

  functionality per dollar in other words

  what's the biggest bang for your buck I

  don't have a good answer for this I do I


  okay good well we don't worry you good

  we will get to you momentarily

  my first which is not good is what ever

  the best iPhone is you can buy because

  given all of the things that you can do

  with your phone and how amazing your

  phone will be get the best one you can

  it'll be great bang for your buck my

  second answer which is which is probably

  the better of the two is air pods they

  are expensive but they provide if

  assuming they fit in your ears they

  provide me endless amounts of joy I

  cannot speak highly enough of the air

  pods so let's go to mark excuse me let's

  go to John who will hopefully have a

  very quick answer and then Marco you can

  take us home

  this is a good one but I still feel like

  the one sexy is too much my answer is

  the iPhone 8 is I think the most

  expensive iPhone is too much like the

  iPhone 10 it's not worth the price

  premium but the iPhone 8 is a fantastic

  phone like it is it's you know if the

  iPhone 10 didn't exist the iPhone it

  would be a worthy top-end phone and

  because the iPhone 10 does exist it can

  be less expensive and yeah the iPhone 8

  is still expensive but it's a really

  great phone and I feel like it gets

  overlooked and it's the iPhone is

  Apple's best product they put their best

  stuff into it it has the the highest

  success rate so I feel like that's the

  most bang for the buck even though it is

  a hell of a lot of bucks is also

  a little bang that's a really good pick

  I will give you that all right so I kind

  of have multiple picks it depends on

  like what category you're looking at I I

  thought about you know stuff like air

  pods but I wanted to just focus on like

  computers phones and iPads so like like

  so you know so I'm not gonna say like

  well you know this one lightning cable

  is the best bang for the buck

  none of Apple's cables are the best bang

  for your buck I know actually I thought

  about that like no I can't there's

  nothing in these categories anyway and I

  also I wanted to enforce some minimum

  standards of making things usable and so

  iOS devices I decided needed to have at

  least 64 gigs of storage and if and for

  anything I picked it was an iPad it had

  to include a smart cover so that's 40

  bucks to the iPad prices for the Mac I

  thought at least a 256 gig SSD or a 1

  terabyte fusion drive and if it's the

  USBC model that I was considering I

  added a $100 allowance for adapters and

  hubs because I true and I don't mean to

  go off and on the laptops again really I

  truly don't believe that that the modern

  and USB see only laptops are useful

  without having you know 50 to 100 hours

  worth of adapters and hubs for them in

  the same way that an iPad is not useful

  without some kind of cover or case

  anyway so in the iPhone category which i

  think is my overall category probably

  because iPhones are just so dan useful

  and so damn good I actually picked the

  iPhone 7 128 jet black

  this goes for 650 new or 590 currently

  refurbished from Apple comm you know I

  looked at the iPhone se 128 that's 450

  that's only new there's no reference for

  that so 450 for the iPhone se or 590 for

  an iPhone 7 refurb that is such a good

  phone I I like it better than the 8

  because one of the you know the great

  advantage of the jet black is you don't

  really need a case because there's so

  much grip on it and I think I think it

  looks better honestly and then the 8th

  does and it's it's still a really solid

  modern internals phone that's it slew of

  the CPU they just put in this new I've

  had to restock you about so the iPhone 7

  128 jet black new or refurbished the

  best buy right now in the and the iPhone

  lineup and possibly the entire Apple

  lineup I will also say

  in the iPad lineup that new iPad the new

  9.7 iPad 128 gigs with Smart Cover is

  470 that's a really good deal you can

  also get last year's version of it with

  Smart Cover refurbished for 350

  that's an excellent deal and you can get

  the cellular version of last year's

  model of that 9.7 in 128 for 450

  refurbished that's a cellular iPad I

  really enjoy a cellular iPad because if

  you're talking about like what's gonna

  be what how can I make this thing the

  most useful to me

  adding cellular really helps a lot this

  is one of the reasons why I wish they

  data to the laptops because it really

  makes this like a truly like portable

  work device it's just like a giant phone

  then and it's really very nice to have

  that sometimes in the laptop category if

  you are limiting yourself to the only

  modern you know 2016 forward MacBooks

  the 13-inch MacBook escape with 256 gig

  SSD is 1600 new or 1370 refurb both of

  those include that $100 allowance for

  Donnell's and hubs if you don't need

  retina the 13-inch MacBook Air is still

  sold 2:56 gives you 1200 new or 980

  refurb I can't I can't pay $900 for

  anything with that screen on it I know

  and and I that's why I had this as like

  a huge habit if you don't need or care

  about retina that's a really great buy

  it's not the retina it's the it's the

  viewing angles color reproduction I just

  think it's a bad screen well I think if

  you don't care about retina if I'm not

  gonna care about that either

  oh and for desktop you know 4k iMac I

  think eight eight one terabyte fusion 4k

  iMac is 1,400 new 1270 refurb that's the

  way to go on that however I think the

  best Mac value is - nobody surprise the

  2015 15 inch macbook pro base model oh

  here we go it's 2,000 new or 1700 refurb

  for 1700 refurb you get a hell of a

  computer you get 16 gigs of ram which

  none of the other ones offer at these

  prices 256 of course quad core processor

  and then you have all the ports you need

  you have a keyboard and trackpad or not

  controversial and reliable you don't

  need any dongles or anything that is

  still I think the best overall value in

  the Mac lineup

  so overall iPhone 7 jet black and the

  2015 15 inch base model I've got that

  iPhone and I think the eight is a better

  deal maybe it's because I just checked

  my battery health and it's at 87% and I

  felt worse about my phone all right cool

  Anson Jim Jablonski writes hey what did

  Marco playing marching band or what

  musical experience does each of the

  hosts have if any so Marco what did you

  play in marching band I was in the

  percussion section so I started out as a

  freshman on crash cymbals right at the

  bottom of the totem pole there and then

  sophomore year I was in snare drum

  junior and senior year I was on quads

  fair enough I have never played anything

  with any sort of efficacy whatsoever

  except I play a mean stereo never mind

  John I play keyboards as a kid we had

  like electric keyboards in the house i

  nibbled around those I did actually take

  piano lessons for some short period of

  time but I could play songs that I

  wanted to play like from the radio and

  stuff one on keyboards and in college I

  picked up a guitar because everybody on

  my floor in my dorm my freshman dorm had

  guitars and so it was impossible not to

  pick up a guitar all of those

  instruments I'm pretty much terrible at

  and I could never sight read music but I

  could kind of Nan sight read it briefly

  for certain instruments moving on

  the Italian stallion who was apparently

  not John siracusa asks backpack

  recommendations that would fit a 15-inch

  MacBook Pro I know you just said

  backpack but if you don't have to have a

  backpack I really love I really love my

  tum bin cadet which I'll put a link in

  the show notes to my review of that I

  have also heard but have not tried

  myself to the tambien synapse is

  excellent and that is a backpack but

  that's probably not useful so does one

  of you have a backpack recommendation

  that you enjoy I have so to me backpacks

  are kind of like the way most people

  think of to do apps and like you know

  task managers I'm always

  about 80 percent satisfied with the

  backpack I have and I'm frequently

  trying new ones as a result and so I

  have tried some of the really nice ones

  actually you know some of these are

  wonderful I have the the water-filled

  designs staad laptop backpack they made

  they make a bunch of good stuff and

  that's that's very good hold 215 is just

  fine I have a really nice Briggs & Riley

  backpack I was something like 200 bucks

  and I forget exactly which model it is

  one of like the active series that's

  pretty nice too I recently got a peak

  design everyday backpack and that's also

  really nice ultimately all of these are

  very good none of them are perfect I

  have not yet tried Tom Ben I believe the

  synapse 25 would be the one to get out

  looking at that I would I would love to

  see it sometime I might end up trying it

  anyway but all of these have pluses

  minuses and it depends a lot on what

  you're doing if you're using it for like

  everyday carrying it to work that's a

  very different type of needs from if you

  are using it like to bring it on planes

  and travel with it or to also have like

  you know a weekend worth of clothing and

  stuff in it like these are very

  different needs the water-filled one is


  very stylish trendy looks nice the

  Briggs & Riley one I found has a lot of

  pluses to it but ultimately I didn't

  care for the layout of the interior

  space like a lot of things are hard to

  reach hard to access there's a lot of

  seemingly wasted space with like weird

  padding areas and stuff that I don't

  think need to be there or should be

  arranged differently the peak design

  everyday backpack is my current one I've

  got it recently and it also is very nice

  with a few flaws it really does not hold

  very much I got the smaller one of the

  two and I'm kind of thinking maybe the

  bigger one might've been the better bet

  it's it's fine in that way but it if you

  it's it holds plenty if you want it to

  be like a laptop bag going to work I

  would say though for a 15-inch MacBook


  it just barely fits in the peak design

  like the laptop pocket is very tight its

  squeezing my laptop such that I'm

  getting keyboard imprints on the screen

  so I don't love that I honestly would

  not recommend it for daily use if only

  for that whereas the the water-filled

  staad I think is better for that but at

  these prices I expect I expect like

  perfection at four to pay you know $300

  ish for a backpack and I haven't found

  that yet so I'm all ears if anybody has

  something else they'd like but

  ultimately I think that it's the kind of

  category where like what's perfect for

  one person is gonna be totally wrong for

  another person and it's all gonna be a

  personal preference and you just got to

  you know try it out and see for yourself

  yeah yeah so the closest I've got to a

  backpack that I really like is actually

  it's not sold anymore but there's an

  equivalent is this LL Bean backpack I I

  don't know what that model mine is but

  the closest one they have is now called

  the quad backpack and it's it's so close

  I like I like backpacks first of all

  that are cheap this is like 80 bucks

  they have tons of little pockets

  everywhere on them so you can put all

  those dongles that we need then this

  dongle lifestyle that we have now it's

  got an inside pocket they will fit any

  you know fit a 15-inch laptop and it

  also an iPad inside a case inside that

  same pocket and then it's got tons of

  other interior space and all sorts of

  little pockets and it's kind of it's not

  fashionable it's not made of nice

  material so just kind of like durable

  kind of like kind of like camping type

  equipment right it's not there's no

  leather anywhere on this thing right so

  if you want to look good forget about it

  the one thing that annoys me about this

  backpack then you should be warned about

  is that it has tons of weird straps

  everywhere you're like oh if you're

  stuffing it filled the camping stuff you

  need the strap that goes around your

  waist and the straps the two straps on

  the side that hold my backpack together

  and I considered cutting them off but

  it's actually kind of hard to cut them

  off cuz it's pretty durable so but I

  have found a way to tuck the straps that

  I'm not using into some of the pockets

  so they're mostly out of the way it's

  still an annoyance if it didn't have

  those straps I think it would be close

  to perfect for me because that's what I

  want to know if you cheap durable light

  and have tons of pockets and zippers and

  not fall apart and so far other cell

  being back practice fit the bill I will

  say to in for the peak design everyday

  backpack it really excels at hiding all

  of the extra straps and

  stuff that it can that can be used in

  pink like every strap that it has has

  some kind of pocket that it belongs in

  when it's not being used and so it's

  totally invisible out of the way it is

  very well designed for like expansion of

  that but yeah ultimately like I I wish

  it was a little bigger something I might

  have to try the bigger version of it but

  and I also wished that like apartment

  wasn't so crushing but hopefully this

  summer I'll moved to a 13 inch newer one

  and that should probably solve that

  problem for me do you guys are do

  packing cubes when you travel not in the

  traditional sense I do have that go pack

  that I talk about all the time that is

  sort of ish like a packing cube that's

  just basically got all my dongles and

  things of that nature in it but what

  you're talking about I think is you know

  packing like clothes and other things of

  that nature in packing cubes and this

  appeals to me from an organizational

  standpoint I feel like this is something

  that I would really like but I've never

  done it and it doesn't seem like I don't

  really get why people would do this even

  though it sounds like it would be

  something I would like you know what I

  mean so what are you asking because you

  haven't or because you're trying it now

  or what brings this up so I recently

  started a lot of our friends travel a

  lot way more than I do and and I kept

  hearing from people like oh you gotta

  try packing cubes or or just generally

  like like the the style of traveling or

  packing where you have like sub bags in

  your bags you know that's all packing

  cubes are are just like you know

  rectangular solid sub bags that you put

  in your bags that's that's basically it

  and so you know III was usually of the

  style of using the bags pockets as

  dividers and compartments but the the

  packing cube and sub bag lifestyle seems

  to want to have just like large open

  compartments in the bags and then you

  have your own like sub bag things that

  you put in there that are separate from

  that at to be your separation

  organization and so I've recently tried

  I wanted to when I got my cool peak

  design everyday backpack I decided to

  also try the packing cube lifestyle for

  a couple of these trips I've taken

  recently and

  I kind of say I see the benefit it's

  pretty cool like Tiffany fundamentally

  but then she wanted to sum as soon as

  she saw how they worked because what's

  nice about them is that there's a few

  benefits number one like it is actually

  nicer to organize things that way in a

  bag and if you get the compression cubes

  that have like slightly compressing

  zippers around there around the

  perimeter it actually does help compress

  your clothes slightly in a controlled

  way that doesn't like you know

  excessively wrinkle them or anything but

  a really nice thing about the packing

  cubes is that if when you arrive at a

  hotel you can just take the pack and

  cube it right out of your bag and just

  place them like in the drawers if you if

  you use the drawers in hotel you could

  put them the drawers and open them up

  and then you have like oh here's my sock

  rectangle you know here's my shirt

  rectangle and it's like it's actually

  really nice and so I think I've been

  converted I want to do a little more

  traveling with them I've done two trips

  so far with them but I think I'm being

  converted to the the sub bag and packing

  cube lifestyle mm-hmm so what you you

  said you have one for socks in like one

  for shirts or like what did you end up

  doing so I got a variety of sizes if

  you're looking at the at the Eagle Creek

  ones I would say the small and medium

  sizes are the ones to get at the rest of

  the sizes I have not yet found much of a

  use for so small medium and compression

  if possible and and they're not cheap

  they end up being like 25 bucks each

  something like that but but they did

  they do seem pretty well-made I have

  like the the tech line that has like

  slightly higher tech fabric and a little

  bit lighter I haven't quite worked the

  whole system yet but I have like you

  know one of them will basically put like

  all my underwear and socks in and this

  depends on like how much you need to

  bring and I'm only again use this for

  two trips so far so take all this with a

  grain of salt but like all underwear and

  socks were going one and then all

  t-shirts will go in another and then if

  I'm if I've had if having extra pants

  I'll put those in one and that's about

  it they have something that you can you

  can fold like dress shirts into I

  haven't tried that yet it's it's just

  it's kind of nice and then it's it makes

  it easier to pack it makes it more more

  organized in the bag to get stuff or if

  you have to move stuff around in the bag

  fit to rearrange stuff it's surprisingly

  nice like I I thought they were

  pointless but now I get it

  and I'm sold you know I've tried a new


  technology with regard to packing which

  is rolling rather than folding the

  rolling people oh yeah you roll the

  stuff into the packing cubes that's it

  helps a lot I feel like it's probably a

  placebo but I really feel like I can get

  considerably more stuff into my bag when

  it's rolled and it's more likely to come

  out less wrinkled it is still a wrinkled

  disaster but it is less so then when I

  think and and so I have been converted

  to the rolling lifestyle that like I

  said that's a nice thought technology in

  my world that I have embraced but but

  yeah the packing cube is still beyond me

  John why do you scoff it rolling you're

  not a fan a couple of reasons

  I'm not into rolling and I'm not into

  the packing things the rolling well the

  same reason I guess and I feel like all

  my items of clothing have a natural size

  that they want to be folded at and that

  size is not rolled and it probably

  doesn't match any of the packing things

  like they I need to fold things at the

  size that they want to be folded they

  speak to me like how big should I be and

  if I tried you may default my shirts

  bigger or smaller maybe because I'm a

  limited folder maybe I have a limited

  repertoire of folding skills like I'm

  not good at folding laundry I fold

  things the way I fold them I know that

  the garment tell me how it wants to be

  folded right and the other thing is with

  my let the garments speak to me and tell

  me how to folding combined with my

  fairly obsessive over packing I can pack

  any of my suitcases easily to the point

  where they exceed the weight limit that

  airlines have so I don't need any

  compression thing to help me get more

  into the bag if anything I have to

  intentionally pack less efficiently so I

  don't go over the weight limit and have

  to pull things out of my bag to get it

  on the plane because the weight limits

  are like what 50 pounds at 4050 pounds

  well it's it's not a weight limit so

  much as there's a fee if you go over it

  yeah well anyway I don't want to have

  that fee and I don't wanna go over the

  limit and sometimes actually is a limit

  that will make you have another check

  another bag or something so I am always

  on the ragged edge of that limit with no

  packing cubes and no rolling and folding

  my clothes the way they naturally want

  to be folded so I feel like this is not

  a problem I have in my life and I'm not

  looking at for ways to Jam more stuff

  into my suitcase and I'm definitely not

  looking for ways to make me have to

  learn how to fold my clothes in a

  different way than the one and only way

  I know how to fold them well it is

  really nice if like if you're checking a

  bag then yeah you're right the weight

  limit is usually a bigger problem but

  it's really nice if you are kind of on

  the border between needing to check it

  and being able to fit in a carry-on and

  I love just traveling with a carry-on if

  possible oh so nice to just bypass the

  baggage claim and just walk right it

  just leave and you're just you're just

  done you have what you have everything

  you need with you you just walk out and

  you're done like that's wonderful so

  where this stuff helps is not in

  cramming you know 75 pounds or the stuff

  into a very large check bag but in

  fitting into a carry-on where otherwise

  you might not have fit into a carry-on

  or your underscore not even having an

  carry hunt but just having a backpack

  for an entire week which it still blows

  my mind cuz I like I said I'm a massive

  over packer and he apparently needs no

  human sustenance of any kind it is very

  satisfying to have to be to be packed

  very lightly on a trip and to need very

  little and to use everything you have

  like I actually I tried one of the

  traffickers took was this this trip

  where I was helping my fellow man remove

  and because I was gonna be like you know

  taking space in a very full moving

  convoy of the trucks I didn't want to

  have a large bag myself I figure that

  was wasteful and and you know I want to

  leave as much space as possible for his

  stuff you've got a whole moving truck

  you afraid you aren't gonna have room

  you have a moving truck no you haven't

  even a stuff but it was it was full and

  so I brought for this trip I brought

  only my peak design everyday backpack

  and I shoved everything I needed for

  three days or four days whatever was

  into this backpack it was glorious like

  there was no space left over and I had

  to do some pretty crazy stuff I only had

  one pair of pants but it was glorious to

  have everything fit in in like one

  backpack including my computer these two

  walkie-talkies some accessories for

  driving like I brought like my cell

  phone suction cup piece of garbage like

  I like I brought a whole bunch of like

  you know stuff that would that would be

  necessary for the trip coffee tubes yeah

  I brought my my tubes of instant coffee

  Southern coffee so does now it matters

  all your items of clothing smelly coffee

  wedged into this bag with the coffee

  tubes no the tubes are sealed all right

  no no no said they were canvas I thought

  maybe they'd be no no they're plastic

  tubes like that come in a pretty canvas

  bag yeah so and it is very satisfying I

  would love like to travel with everybody

  see I would love to travel with just

  like one of the like the smallest roller

  bag size you know that like but the

  pilots usually have I have one of those

  it's glorious I love being on offense

  that the only reason I don't for

  everybody to see is that we we bring

  like all podcasts to do so so I might

  have all this gear but like I'm trips

  where I don't have that I love packing

  as small as possible

  sure maybe you can put the fit the

  podcasting studio in one of his inside

  jacket pockets I really want to just

  emphasize what you guys are saying about

  underscores packing because we for a

  long time would fly out together I would

  drive up to Dulles which is which is

  reasonably close to his house and we

  would take the same flight and try to

  sit next to each other and whatnot and I

  would be rolling in with like my laptop

  bag which is bursting at the seams and

  it's in a carry-on bag which was

  bursting at the seams and that pain in

  my rear end rolls in with like a lightly

  stuffed backpack it's not even like a

  lightly packed backpack and that is all

  he has that's his computer that's his

  toiletries his luggage everything is

  bleep packed for a week it's inhuman

  I've asked him about this every year a

  spell of this and every year he's just

  gotta shrugs and smirks and basically

  says I don't need a lot it's so it's

  both delightful and in fear he hating

  all at the same time because I'm like

  John I Peck way too much in over the

  years I have gotten that beaten out of

  me like over time I have gotten better

  about not packing everything in the

  world and I still pack way too much you

  saying what you just described as half

  of what I pack B zero like you bag I

  have a full-size suitcase like the

  biggest the highest weight limit

  suitcase you can get and then my

  backpack I mean I adore my Owais new

  case and they happen to be sponsoring

  this episode and they carry on I mean

  it's a wonderful wonderful suitcase I

  would say that even if we weren't

  compensated to say that but it is not

  you know half

  it's it's it's carry on I mean which

  makes sense and I can get you know like

  the last year I got my entire week's

  worth of luggage my toiletry kit my my

  go pack and a pair of running shoes in

  there and I was very proud of myself

  because for me that was a heck of an

  accomplishment and underscore I think he

  was wearing you know sneakers for the

  for the week so we didn't have to have a

  second pair of shoes but he had like

  running clothes he probably brought a

  damn kettle for his coffee flow I know

  this backpack it's like Santa's freaking

  bag that he has it's it's an it's

  incredible so thanks to our sponsors

  this week away aftershocks and Jeff now

  and we'll talk to you next week



  research Marco and Casey wouldn't let

  him cuz it was accidentally was

  accidental and you can find the show

  notes at a follow them CAS pyl ISS and

  that's Casey less ma RC own a RM auntie

  Marco Arment si are they see you at


  by the way for people wondering about

  the inside jacket pocket thing

  underscore is the first person I saw who

  had a macbook won the little 12-inch

  MacBook with one USB C port literally

  inside his jacket pocket takes out a

  laptop yeah his wife custom-made a

  pocket she sewed it on the inside of the

  jacket that would fit exactly that

  laptop and it was amazing to see

  somebody especially like underscore as

  you men he's like he's so like

  frustratingly organized all the time

  like he he's so like together and he

  just like and and everything he does he

  makes look he makes it look effortless

  it's just no big deal like totally he

  has all the grace in the world like just

  and so like he's just like yeah we're

  like we were standing in line at the at

  the last Santa the last WC in San

  Francisco we were outside that whatever

  Center that it was we had to walk all

  the way over they get to get there and

  he just like whips this ad like we were

  like oh we should check that sometime or

  you know and he just he's like oh I'll

  check it right now and he whips out this

  laptop out of his jacket walking with

  him standing in line with him it's like

  you know yeah we had no idea and it was

  like a it was like a fleece it was not

  like a big winter coat it was it was

  like a light fleece oh man I love that

  guy but there's certain there's certain

  times that I want to strangle him in the

  best possible way and that's one of them

  because I really you know what it is

  about underscore is that he he very very

  well reflects to me my own failings but

  he's like the nicest human being in the

  world and so you can't be upset at him

  because he's the nicest guy ever yeah

  like my favorite compliment I ever

  received was I I once I had sent John

  Gruber some of my home roasted coffee he

  said I almost want to say fuck you this

  is so good and that's kind of how it's

  like one underscore does something

  awesome and I'm like it's almost like

  he's such a nice guy like you don't you

  can't get mad at him but you're just

  like damn it white like yeah yeah why

  can I not why have I either not thought

  of that or not gotten it together to do


  it's so true so true just comfort

  yourself by thinking that just try to

  try a picture in your head underscore

  like being frustrated at something I'm

  getting and getting angry I don't think

  I've ever seen him even mildly like

  disturbed like he's never been

  particularly angry about anything in my

  experience and having known him for

  several years now I've never seen him


  never seen him particularly upset

  sometimes he'll kind of do the

  exasperated laugh of oh well that's the

  brakes but yeah he's like the least

  fazed person I've ever seen in I am I am

  somewhat skeptical that he has ever

  raised his voice for any reason ever I

  believe he has and I pictured that to

  make me feel better about myself the

  best part of all is he's gonna be

  listening to this at some absurd hour

  tomorrow morning because he typically

  bootlegs all this and he is going to be

  so deeply embarrassed by this entire

  conversation which isn't actually

  something I should be proud of but it is

  making me laugh a little bit maybe

  that's his one flaw that's the one his

  one flaw excessive modesty Wow job

  interview responses what's your worst



  so how was the trip did we talk about

  this publicly I don't know that we did

  are we talking about this publicly

  whether or not it makes the show the

  only thing that made the show is the

  walkie talkie bit okay where John was

  making fun of me for buying

  walkie-talkies for a road trip yeah I do

  want to hear about that but not this

  minute but how is the other parts of the

  trip just out of curiosity no hey wait

  way too many combos enjoy you're a good

  roadside coffee or did you bring a

  gigantic thermos of coffee with you oh

  you're gonna make so much fun of me if I

  mentioned this before I I have a God I

  have a monthly subscription to a fancy

  hipster instant coffee thing from San

  Francisco why I get eight little tubes

  of instant coffee powder a month

  delivered in a little canvas bag and

  they cost like a dollar fifty each

  it's a subscription and it's insta

  coffee you dump it into water and it

  makes good coffee it's it's basically

  they're a really good version of instant

  coffee and it turns out instant coffee

  got popular for very good reasons it's

  pretty damn convenient when you're

  traveling you know like I'm on the plane

  I got a cup of hot water please and I

  got a hot water cup and I dumped my

  coffee into it and stirred it up and had

  my like insufferable hipster coffee

  right there on the plane it was

  wonderful he would i'm so sorry for

  anybody who cares that the sudden coffee

  that's the name of it because it's not

  instant it's sudden ha ha sounds like

  like it surprises you a cup of water and

  almost brown anyway it's not cheap but

  it's pretty good if anybody needs this

  kind of thing it's pretty that's pretty

  much that your motto it's not cheap but

  it's good this is why I like I like

  anybody listening is probably like of

  course I have that surprising this is

  surprising I thought you're gonna say

  you have like the underscore kit where

  you have this is entire a bunch of

  paraphernalia that you'd take out in the

  car including a little table lap desk to

  set it all up on plug in a kettle into

  the 12 volt socket in the car and just

  you know I used to do that kind of like

  fancy you know III brought my ear press

  on a couple of

  trips and it was just such a pain I have

  I got a travel grinder and everything

  like it and I just I found that not

  worth the hassle and so instead I for a

  while I would just drink tea on trips

  I'd bring my own fancy tea bags but I

  don't like tea that much and you know

  coffees better and so I I found this and

  I decided oh you know even though it's a

  subscription which I don't like I'm like

  well I'll try it I'll see how it is and

  it's been good enough that I kept it up

  like I I use it I don't I don't always

  use it regularly like sometimes like

  I'll accumulate a couple extras that I

  haven't used in the last month but it's

  fantastic for road trips sometimes I'll

  just tear up one of those tubes and dump

  it in his mouth he doesn't care I

  actually did that once I was on a road

  trip and I was I didn't want to stop to

  get like a cup of hot water because like

  there was no good place nearby to do

  that so I just kind of slowly ate the

  crystals tasted fine a little strong

  that's really sad somewhat someone draw

  a comic is that how come people never

  draw comics for our show somebody drops

  a demarco eating the instant coffee

  hipster instant coffee out of the tube

  maybe a little tear it tear going down

  his outside of his space driving on the

  Long Island Expressway well another

  reason right here all right let's start

  with some follow up John tell me about

  breath of the wild on the WiiU last week

  what are we talking about it oh you're

  talking about bitna Civ consoles is one

  of the ask ATP questions and I was

  telling me about how power still makes a

  difference in the modern era and talk

  about a game like breath of the wild

  which is a large open world a zelda game

  and how you couldn't play it on a less

  powerful console and I said the Wii U

  and I should have just said the weak

  because obviously in the grand tradition

  I guess two two data points my tradition

  of Zelda games that are initially

  developed for one console but take so

  long to get done that the second console

  comes out and then they launch it on

  both consoles simultaneously that was

  the case with the breath of the wild was

  actually developed for the Wii U and

  only later launched on the switch and

  that happened with Twilight Princess for

  the Gamecube and the Wii although

  Twilight Princess I highly recommend

  playing it on the Gamecube but not on

  the Wii because the motion controls are

  not very good so a surprisingly small

  number of people sent in that correction

  but to the people who did a good job pin

  to everyone else John is disappointed

  yes seriously pretty big pretty big gap

  in the grand scheme of things if it was

  a maybe if it was about like Apple stuff

  we would've got more people half of the

  internet wrote in to tell us that the

  space gray keyboard mouse and Magic

  Trackpad are all available separately

  now if that's your cup of tea

  I am currently fondling and touching a

  Space Gray keyboard and I have a Space

  Gray magic magic mouse next to me and I

  have a Space Gray magic trap track bed

  that I use from time to time these were

  all secondhand from friend of the show

  underscore David Smith who did not

  charge me a premium however Apple will

  charge you a $20 price premium because

  Apple yeah what is it that the dark ones

  I mean technically they could do this

  with any color let's just make fewer of

  them and then charge more because

  they're more rare sure you do a little

  time but in general Apple doesn't seem

  to do that with things that come in

  colors like you can get your phones or

  iPads and various colors gold rose gold

  Space Gray sometimes they come in black

  but there's no price difference between

  the colors you know somehow in the Mac

  world every time something gets a darker

  color it's an extra 20 bucks or

  something and I don't know it for some

  reason it bothers me that you can get

  iOS devices in different colors for the

  same price but in the Mac side that's

  not the case so anyway I just hope if

  you're out there listening this you

  didn't buy a Space Gray iMac pro

  keyboard for $1,500 on ebay because that

  would have been a bad move I kind of

  feel like I feel like my iMac pro is

  less special now these are available for

  to anybody I'm so sorry oh you know

  listeners so the show would have been

  well warned because this the iMac Rose

  came out we were surprised the you know

  wasn't our prediction that they wouldn't

  sell for a lot of me Bay because people

  would realize Apple's gonna introduce

  them and then new things will be

  worthless but alas that's not the way

  people think and so some people did buy

  them and sell them apparently for very

  high prices on eBay I hope all those

  people are sad now

  snarky John tonight is everything okay

  and the people who sold them are and

  said that's true yeah I guess well they

  should because they took advantage of

  somebody that

  feel bad about that ring only if Apple

  should not feel bad they're charging $20

  more for no reason

  $20 premium is better than like a one

  thousand three hundred and fifty dollar

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  much to Jam 2 now for sponsoring our

  show I would at this point plug our live

  show and that is going to be happening

  at WV DC on Monday night but it is sold

  out so if you happen to have a ticket

  and no you won't need it please get in

  contact with alt conf and let them know

  that or tell a friend or do something

  but uh we have no control over

  attendance we have no sway over wait

  lists or anything like that

  so thank you to everyone who has

  purchased the ticket we hope to see you

  there and it should be really exciting

  it'll win one from a friend in a game of

  chance I'm assuming this is a reference

  I'm not aware of

  anyway all right so Marco you went on a

  really long road trip recently and you

  had mentioned briefly in the last

  episode that you had bought some

  walkie-talkies to take with you because

  it was going to be a multi-car caravan

  the last I tried to use walkie-talkies

  which was just a handful of years ago

  they were promised to work for like 34

  zillion miles and worked for about 34

  feet so mm-hmm

  tell me about your fans I'm sure you

  bought the most heinous ly expensive

  walkie-talkies you could find tell me

  how well or not well they worked so they

  were only I think it was something like

  sixty or seventy dollars for a pair and

  then I loaded all the accessories like

  the charging base and everything so I

  wouldn't say that was that expensive

  it's some kind of Cobra if you look at

  the if you look at Amazon like the Cobra

  model that is the highest of its group

  that's the one I got it's like some like

  that for a pair and it's the one it has

  a very useful feature this is one of the

  reasons I went to this model that it has

  a repeat that back button so it keeps a

  buffer over the last few things that

  were said and so if you miss what

  somebody said you can just hit that and

  it plays it again which is really useful

  anyway John made fun of me relentlessly

  for buying walkie-talkies for the for

  the purpose of communicating between two

  vehicles on a road trip because we have

  cell phones and that was a really good

  argument cell phones do sound way better

  unfortunately it takes a little bit of

  time to create a cell phone connection

  you have to you know pick up the phone

  I'm locking if it's not unlock tap

  something find them you know connect oh

  walkie talkie you literally just push

  button and you immediately can say

  something to them I told you you should

  have had your phone's connected the

  whole time yes we were like listening to

  music and podcasts and stuff the whole

  time with our phone a muted and when you

  want to talk you hit the mute you don't

  like your browsing Twitter on it

  bouncing up dashboard hit the mute

  button mutant you know but the phone was

  being used for the media so that that's

  no good podcaster music or navigation

  directions I was we were also using ways

  to navigate you can do all that at once

  on your phone mmm

  nope you can't play media while you're

  up taking a phone call anyway so and

  also what I wear these really came in

  handy besides the incredibly fast

  ability to just push a button and say

  something quick like like hey watch out

  don't merge left yet or something

  that or you wanna stop at this exit you

  know really quick stuff but also know

  not not the entirety of our trip had

  cellphone coverage because we were going

  to a very rural place at the end of the

  trip the entire last like 45 minutes had

  no coverage during which we were on the

  walkie-talkies a lot to coordinate

  things like where we were gonna Park

  this giant truck and how like what

  direction I had to face how we were

  going to get it that way what we were

  gonna do once we got there how we were

  gonna like do the very first steps to

  unload it and all the logistics involved

  they proved to be invaluable everybody

  involved in this trip was very very

  happy that we had these walkie talkies

  they were wonderful in ways that a phone

  either would have been worse or would

  have not worked at all so John was

  totally wrong and to answer Casey's

  question the the range I did a little

  bit of research obviously when buying

  these and it appears you know most of

  you most of them seem to quote a range

  of somewhere between like 10 and 50

  miles and it's not it doesn't take that

  much digging to realize that that's

  actually like if you're like two people

  on top of mountaintops with nothing

  between you that's like the most ideal

  scenario of like nothing obstructing it

  and you know no interference from

  anything if you if you do you know if

  you use it like in like a more realistic

  location like in a town or on a highway

  the mileage basically gets cut to a

  tenth so it gets decimated right as what

  that means and so yeah so it basically

  gets you know so you're you're 37 mile

  one is actually more like three miles

  and and it's and even that is like you

  know if you're in a really dense area

  like you know in like a city with lots

  of buildings and everything it might be

  more like one mile you know or it may be

  even a half mile in worst case scenario

  for the for the thicker ones and there's

  a limit on how powerful they can

  transmit which I think most of the bands

  is 2 watts so that's kind of what limits

  like how powerful they can be but yeah

  so it was fun it was totally worth it

  and they're really you know modern

  modern useful things like the like the

  playback feature they both can charge by

  a USB and or take double-a batteries or

  you can put rechargeable batteries in

  them and charge them through the USB

  ports it's great so

  uh John was wrong at the end so just for

  the young people listening I want to

  assure you that it actually is possible

  to take a tandem car trips without

  either cellphones for yeah but it sucks

  it does suck I would agree with both of

  you it's fun you have to make it come up

  with systems for signalling and then get

  frustrated while the people don't follow

  the systems for signaling that's a John

  statement if I've ever heard enough it's

  like being a spy something like I put my

  right hand out the window that means

  pull over but my left hand out the

  window that means merge alright we

  should get to the actual topics for this

  evening and something happened on

  Tuesday and something something

  education moving on let's finally get to

  the topic we all want to get to which is

  Apple's heyday

  let's between you skip but now we're

  gonna talk about today we're gonna go

  through the event followed by a blog as

  there wasn't that much to go through I

  thought it was so funny because like

  last week we as professional podcasters

  completely failed to mention our WTC

  live show and also that there was about

  to be an Apple event that we all knew

  about and we're like ooh but like

  everyone else is doing predictions and

  at least mentioning this is gonna happen

  we completely failed to even mention it

  I don't think we failed to because I

  knew about it I just didn't think there

  was anything worth saying on the last

  show I think we talked about it

  beforehand and like well you know we'll

  see what they announce but until the

  like I didn't have high expectations of

  what they were gonna announce and so I

  didn't really feel like it was worth

  discussing until they announce something

  I mean I didn't have high expectations

  either and they even failed to meet

  those I I thought like I thought it'd be

  really funny if we just never mentioned

  it at all because it was there was so

  little really to it that but but

  unfortunately John wants to talk about

  it so we're gonna talk about it just

  just pretend like we never actually

  mentioned it and it's funnier that way a

  lot of product mountains but I think

  there are things to talk about though so

  my first question is did you two

  actually watch the event nope not live

  but I because it was actually during the

  road trip that I was taking but I

  download the video and watched it that

  night Kasey's pooh-poohing this event do

  you even watch it they could have had

  seven slides about you I have to admit I

  also fast forwarded through some parts

  of it because it you know what what I do

  like about it overall it kind of made me

  feel I don't it was a little bit


  it basically seemed like they were

  holding an event to almost like yell at

  the world like no look we care about

  education but without actually backing

  it up with what I consider to be enough

  and and the we that could take lots of

  different forms and you could disagree

  or agree with that but I felt like the

  the premise of an education event that

  you know like that that's that even they

  call the press out and everything and by

  the way I if I if I was like an

  independent journalist who flew out

  there on my own dime to cover this I'd

  be pretty annoyed honestly but anyway

  and I'm friends with some of these

  people and they haven't told me this

  behind the scenes I'm just saying like

  if I were one of these people like you

  know that's I would I would be annoyed

  that I had spent the time and money to

  do this but the impression I got from

  this event was that it was a lot of

  cheerleading it was it was almost like a

  pep rally for Apple and for teachers

  hell accurate giving it was in a school

  yeah right yeah but but without enough

  substance I thought to back that up it

  was it was really more like look at how

  great we already are at the things that

  we are already doing not so much here's

  some you know new new software new

  changes new hardware whatever it is like

  there was actually very little of that

  at least very little of relevance or of

  significance and there was just a lot

  more like here's how great we are here's

  someone else to come out and tell you

  how great we've been and how great were

  going to keep being and it was it was

  just it was a weird balance I just felt

  almost taken it almost like my attention

  was taken advantage of to get to the

  product announcements know and like I

  wasn't expecting like an iPhone or

  anything like you know I knew that it

  was a focused education event that's one

  thing but if you look at like you know

  what people would reasonably expect out

  of a you know publicized press event

  regarding Apple and education I would

  have expected a lot more than what we

  actually got some people were tweeting a

  few and it was like at the 20 or 30

  minute mark there

  you know we're 20 minutes in and they

  still haven't said anything about any

  products yet you know there was like a

  long lead-in and there was a long lead

  out as well I so I I don't remember the

  last education event but another thing

  people were tweeting about was exactly

  how long ago the last education event

  was apparently they don't even have

  these things every two or three years is

  that there are long gaps we've to meet

  between the events having a dedicated

  education event Apple does stuff

  education related all the time but

  having a dedicated event for it doesn't

  have a lot of time I think the last time

  we talked about it these stats were

  similar but I to frame this to like why

  why is Apple having an education event

  why are they spending an hour on stage

  telling you about all the things that

  Apple does related to education and

  trying to make them seem to mark this

  point as you know as as good as possible

  seem desirable seem like that Apple is

  doing great things in education this is

  a quote from Bloomberg Bloomberg article

  link in the show notes

  Chromebooks accounted for 60% of laptops

  tablet and other mobile computers

  shipping to us K through 12 schools in

  the third quarter of 2017 Apple's iPads

  accounted for 12% of those school

  devices which is less than half its

  market share from 2014

  so from 2014 to 2017 their market share

  has been cut in half

  more than cut in half so not only is

  that Bowl not you know leading in market

  share in this an education category they

  were addressing here which is basically

  a United States K through 12 schools not

  only is you know Chromebooks eating your

  lunch there but it's not as if that's

  just the status quo it's like yeah well

  you know the you know apples never had

  big market share but they you know that

  the important part in the in three years

  their small market share has been cut in

  half so if I were Apple and I cared

  anything about education I would have to

  be taking a hard look at this thing

  should we get out of the education

  market or should we do something

  because unlike lots of other markets

  where we have small market share but

  it's steady and we you know reap most of

  the profits right like the phone market

  for example Apple does not dominate the

  phone market market chair wise but I've

  you know Apple is probably not crying

  over that because they make so much

  money on it and they are seen to have

  you know

  if not the best phone then one of the

  best phones right and I don't think you

  see a lot of article anymore saying

  Apple needs to up its phone market chair

  or they're gonna be doomed or you know

  Android easy apples lunch in the phone

  market just because the money talks

  right look where all the money goes he

  goes to Apple and also if Apple's phone

  market share had been cut in half in the

  last three years I think there'd be a

  lot of more articles about that so I

  feel like the the context for this event

  is Apple trying to figure out how to

  even just stay in the game and education

  forget about here's how great we are but

  just can you know is this a market where

  we can or we can make a difference where

  we can be a player where we can be

  important and that got me thinking about

  how the education market is different

  from the phone market or the personal

  computer market or the TV connected puck

  market or the home cylinder that you

  yell at market or whatever you know they

  the the fancy computer watch market lots

  of like plots in the modern era Apple

  has been all about making tons of money

  selling relatively high margin expensive

  products to a minority of a market the

  phone market is the best extensive that

  of the example that does that make so

  much money and their market share is so

  small compared to the aggregate of all

  their competitors which is always just

  lump together it's like Apple and non

  Apple basically Android and iOS but they

  may just make so much money it's like

  well this is a winning strategy we don't

  really care we're not gonna worry that

  oh we need to you know we need to make a

  netbook remember the netbooks well cheap

  laptops to compete with the PC space we

  need to make a super cheap iPhone to

  compete with Android

  that's not how Apple plays the game they

  want to sell to the best part of the

  market best meaning the part that is the

  most lucrative the part that allows

  Apple to make the fanciest products

  because that people will pay the highest

  price the Nyhus margins and all that

  Apple Apple's products look nice and

  everything like that and I was thinking

  about whether that strategy is viable in

  education because as far as I can tell

  Apple continues to essentially pursue

  that in these past decade or so in


  saying we're not going to have the

  majority of the education market but

  we'll have the quote-unquote best part

  of the education market the richest

  schools will buy apple stuff like I'm

  trying to try to figure out what what

  they're thinking that if you can afford

  us we give you the best school

  experience or it will seem the fanciest

  if you buy Apple stuff and for some

  reason when it comes to education that

  rubs me the wrong way more so than smart

  phones just because education I think of

  more as a thing that has to be for


  whereas smart phones there are options

  and it's if you don't have an iPhone you

  are not disadvantaged in life versus if

  you have an Android phone right but if

  you don't have an education or don't

  have a good education or our education

  is not as rich as someone else's that

  feels you know inequitable to me and so

  I'm watching this presentation and I'm

  trying to figure out is Apple changing

  course here are they saying we're we're

  going to figure out how to let more

  students get access to our products or

  we still concentrating on providing the

  best products for the few students who

  are lucky enough to go to a stool school

  that can afford them and the

  presentation as I read it as someone who

  is not you know I'm not involved in the

  education system but I do have kids in

  school seemed to me that they were not

  changing their strategy that everything

  they presented was beautifully polished

  sort of very sort of high-end nice to

  look at applications hardware and

  software that a few schools are lucky

  enough to have but that the pricing was

  the same as it's ever been and that

  nothing they announced is going to help

  them compete with the things that are

  currently eating their lunch in the

  market not just on price but from what I

  understand from people in education a

  lot of the features they for the stuff

  that Google's offers are better than the

  features that Apple offers that's why

  part of the announcements are yeah we


  the new iPad but we also have a bunch of

  new software that's playing catch-up to

  our competitor to say oh here's the

  easier way to manage a bunch of iPads

  using an easier way for a teacher to

  manage a bunch of students doing things

  but even that even the catch-up software

  I saw a lot of complaints saying okay

  but you still haven't caught up entirely

  to the functionality offered by Google

  in terms of integrating into other

  school system things and providing a

  broader set of functionality which may

  not be pretty and fancy and have like

  the Apple pencil support and you know

  high-end video production capabilities

  so kids can make cool videos about

  gravity and stuff but practically

  speaking when it comes to you know

  reading writing and arithmetic and the

  basics of functioning in a school and

  having a lot of students and a lot of

  devices and managing it all but still

  apples offerings aren't even the best

  and they're certainly not the cheapest

  so I'm kind of confused / concerned

  about apples approach to education

  because it seems to me that if they

  really want to make a difference in this

  market they need to pursue a different

  strategy because I don't I don't think

  it's appropriate to pursue a strategy

  like they do in the consumer market in

  education but you know maybe I'm wrong

  about that I would love to hear from

  people in education who have worked with

  Apple and Google stuff about what what

  how they perceive these competitors that

  did people watch the education event in

  you know people who are actually

  teachers or school administrators and

  think that Apple had done something

  that's going to change the game or did

  it just seem like more of the same I

  thought Joseph Lenski had a few good

  tweets about this and I'll probably

  forget to put them in the show notes but

  Joe used to be a I think he was an

  English teacher from not mistaken

  apologies if I have that wrong but now

  he's an app developer and designer and

  slash rock star but in any case you know

  his take about it was you know look

  Apple doesn't really play the you know

  cheap game just like you're saying John

  you know it's not apples card that they

  play so are we really surprised that

  this is the way this event turned out

  and you know he and I went back and

  forth a little bit and early in a happy

  way or at least I thought it was happy

  maybe he was annoyed at me but yeah we

  went back and forth a little bit in the


  you know i-i've not worked in education

  but Aaron was a teacher high school

  teacher for a long time and in fact and

  I think I've mentioned this a few times

  on the show a few years ago actually

  many years ago now there was national

  news about like a stampede that happened

  because I books were being sold for 50

  bucks a pop at the Richmond

  International Raceway and they were old

  like high school I books that were being

  retired and so they were selling them it

  seen ly cheaply and people I got

  trampled trying to buy these cheap

  iBooks well that happened because of the

  county in which we live it was our

  County that was selling all those and so

  Aaron when she was teaching the kids all

  got issued Dells when they were when she

  was teaching is just a yeah you're

  getting a Dell was just a couple years

  before that

  that they were getting these iBooks etc

  so having you know spoke and aaron about

  this I mean again I'm still a little bit

  removed from the actual decision-making

  as was she but it seemed pretty clear to

  me that even in a relatively affluent

  area like we're in I mean or no like you

  know a Greenwich County Connecticut or

  anything like that but we're not you

  know broke around these parts and even

  here it's all about cost it's just a

  hundred percent about cost and so yeah I

  think you're right John that maybe the

  apples play is hey if you happen to live

  in a really rich area or if you go to

  like a very well-to-do private school or

  something like that then yeah we have

  all sorts of sweet answers for you we

  have a sweet solution for you but I

  don't know of any like quote-unquote

  regular school system that is going to

  look at anything more than initial

  purchase price

  maybe maybe total cost of ownership

  maybe but generally speaking it's gonna

  be purchase price and the other thing

  I've gleaned from Bradley chambers and

  Fraser Spears and a few others is that

  apparently the management stuff that

  Google has is way better than what Apple

  has it's not even in the ballpark now to

  be fair you can supplement what Apple

  does with like Jam for other other

  third-party tools but it's just it seems

  to be a lot more work and a lot more

  money to use the Apple suite is that

  worth it

  maybe they

  we painted from what I've gleaned from

  not having watch the event he certainly

  painted a pretty compelling pictures to

  all the things you can do with iPads in

  the classroom and so on and so forth but

  I just don't see how that's a realistic

  play for almost any general school

  system in the world and if you're gonna

  spend 330 dollars on mayo per kid on an

  iPad I don't know I got to imagine in

  aggregate that that adds up to a not and

  not insignificant amount of money and

  the first place I would put that is

  teacher salaries because at least in

  America salaries are just hilariously

  just devastatingly small and it's absurd

  how little teachers get paid here like

  that's the other point that is less and

  less mentioned I feel like in the modern

  Apple era which is general skepticism

  about whether the addition of technology

  actually improves education to your

  point Casey about maybe you've actually

  paid teachers more that would improve

  education more than buying all because a

  laptop like there is there is a

  technology angle that Apple can speak to

  which is they have a very important

  profitable platform that if things keep

  going well will be a viable place for

  children to make their living and so

  teaching coding skills and just more

  broadly teaching coding skills which is

  the thing that Apple's familiar with

  because they have a developer you know

  they have developers they have developer

  relations they have developer tools they

  are well equipped to make an education

  focused version of teaching people how

  computer skills which i think is a

  viable thing to learn in school right

  and Apple has expertise there so welcome

  Apple to the education they're teaching

  you're teaching about something you know

  but beyond that I feel like when I was a

  kid there was much more skepticism about

  whether having kids make a multimedia

  presentation about gravity like in that

  Cooper video for kids you know doing

  this project and making slow-mo videos

  and all their iOS devices and cutting it

  together and making animations and doing

  all that looks fun seems expensive and

  especially like these you know

  incredibly high production values that

  these for the things they do in these

  little promotional videos but does that

  actually improve education like there's

  enrichment and there is getting kids

  engaged with technology and there's

  having the advantage to do something a

  little bit different every once in a

  while but I think the vision presented


  all of that like all kids are doing

  creative multimedia digital things all

  the time

  is not representative of like the

  broader effort to educate like and those

  are the the most fun parts and you can

  make learning fun with the addition of

  Technology but you can make learning fun

  with the addition of you know just

  sitting in a circle and and talking to

  each other and you know or just going on

  a field trip like there is it just seems

  to me that that Apple seems uninterested

  in what will actually make education

  better and more interested in how can we

  make education better with our products

  and I'm not entirely sure their products

  make education better in a way that is

  worth the money spent on not all these

  people's like Oh school shouldn't have

  computers or anything like that it just

  it just seems to me that like that

  learning is not linked to the technology

  involved right that you can learn all

  the same things in exciting engaging

  ways without having computers involved

  at all that's of course you're learning

  about computers which again that's the

  angle that Apple has expertise on and

  they're they're wise to to lean on it

  like learning to code and then there's

  tough play grants a lot of stuff but if

  you're not learning about computers

  computers may help you typewriters may

  help you

  Slate's may help you pencils and lined

  paper might help you but in the end the

  learning part it seems much more that

  there are so many other much bigger

  factors starting with just like

  temperature control and safety all the

  way up to class size and teachers that

  are not you know stressed out and are

  not underpaid and overworked and you

  know just you know curriculum that suits

  the students different learning

  strategies special help for the kids who

  need it like there's so many more things

  that are more important to me than

  whether my kids have the latest iPad or

  Android devices or whatever you know so

  I'm and and I'm not saying that Apple

  it's apples job to solve education it's

  problem is just that I didn't even see a

  faint in that direction or a nod or an


  to the fact that the most important

  thing in the classroom has nothing to do

  with technology that's there because

  they're there to sell you the technology

  and that that's what I found that and

  and my work concerned about the the fact

  that this trade isn't students to be

  changing made me think that Apple is on

  the wrong track with its education

  strategy and that that if they continue

  to pursue it they're not going to turn

  around the their market share slide and

  and also like again having two kids in

  school it didn't make me think boy I

  wish my kids had access to two iPads and

  Apple laptops it just didn't you know

  like that I don't I don't have any

  desire for that at all for my kids I

  want my kids to you know learn and enjoy

  school and learn that the the you know

  the the things that are supposed to

  learn the social skills like to have a

  good school experience I have no desires

  whatsoever about the technology that

  using I don't care if they use any

  technology unless they're interested in

  technology unless you're taking a course

  in technology and even then I don't care

  if they teach the kids Pascal teach them

  C++ teach them scheme like I don't I

  don't care if they're learning Swift or

  iOS program or anything like that so I

  don't know I'm maybe I'm overly grumpy

  about this I mean I I think you bring up

  a lot of really good points because you

  know I think maybe one of the reasons

  this event kind of rubbed me the wrong

  way is is similar to what you were just

  saying about how it seems like Apple

  more just wants to like yell at us about

  why they're why they don't have to

  change much of anything why their

  existing stuff can just be shoved right

  in there and be a perfect fit and and I

  think there over time the the compelling

  Nisour the or the fit of what they're

  trying to put into this into this

  category versus what these customers

  actually need and want is diverging it's

  it's not getting closer over time it's

  getting worse over time like the way I

  see it from both you know reading and

  listening to school workers who are like

  also writers in tech or podcasters I'm

  also from friends and family I know who

  who work in education some of them

  teachers from the administrators it

  seems like what schools ultimately want

  is inexpensive durable laptops and

  enterprise siyul management tools and

  services to back them to make it easier

  to manage Apple seems to me like they're

  losing this on three pretty major fronts

  price is obviously a big one like you

  know they they are losing on price not

  by as much as some people think if you

  like look at you know you know I've had

  as being the solution if you look at

  laptops as being the solution that they

  lose big they also seem to be losing

  with you know just kind of this is kind

  of the wrong product I think like and we

  had this argument a lot in in you know

  our regular you know tech beat of is the

  iPad a good enough computer for various

  people for various things and ultimately

  I think while you could make the some

  really nice marketing videos about how

  cool would be if kids used iPads and to

  you know rediscover things like you know

  music and robots and stuff that's not

  what most kids need most of the time in

  most classes what they mostly need is

  laptops and you can and so what what

  Apple is trying to sell the schools on

  is no look yes our laptops are way too

  expensive for what you're looking for

  so instead although they still saw a lot

  of anyway but instead you should be

  looking at the iPad that's why we don't

  meet to make a lamp at any cheaper

  because the future is the iPad and you

  can just bolt on all of these clunky

  expensive accessories that raise the

  price even further because you're not

  gonna use that iPad at 3:29 or $2.99

  you're gonna have to add a case of some

  kind to protect it because it's way too

  fragile just give to kids naked you can

  even have two adults naked so you gotta

  get some kind of case it's probably

  gonna want some kind of keyboard for a

  lot of things that needs or for

  standardized test requirements or things

  like that so that's why they had this

  Logitech case it has this you know

  special keyboard and everything and so

  you're adding you have to add on all

  these accessories now they want you to

  buy a pencil or the logitech kram which

  is interesting they say you know they

  want you to add on even more stuff to it

  to make it into what you want all that

  drives with the price and the complexity

  and the clunkiness of the solution so

  it's very possible and I think likely

  that they're actually selling schools

  the wrong product what schools actually

  want is inexpensive durable laptops and

  then the third problem which I don't see

  them probably ever fixing is that you

  know if you talk to an administrator who

  or a teacher who runs the Google G


  or to an IT manager who runs the fleets

  of these things the G suite management

  tools are really good like that it like

  it is an entire like enterprise

  management platform and all these web

  services with Google Docs and and all

  this stuff that's really good and Apple

  I don't think is ever going to do well

  in that kind of environment that's not

  in their DNA to make enterprise fleet

  management things very very well or to

  make cloud document platforms very well

  they try but not very hard and it's

  never very competitive and when you

  compare like I wanted to I laughed so

  hard they made a little a quick little

  remark about how when the iPad how it

  supports multiple users only in a school

  environment and the presenter said you

  can change users in under a minute to

  switch users on a component PC or a Mac

  it wasn't even change users it was you

  could log out and be ready for someone

  else to log in like they were just they

  were touting to log on I think the login

  time could potentially be worse because

  it does what it does under the cover is

  it's not like it's not like they're

  using the multi user features of an

  annoying operating system is it's just

  like a single user iPad that they swap

  in and out by shuffling stuff around

  it's not like multiple accounts in the

  Mac there they're like tearing down the

  entire user space tearing down all

  springboard swapping in various like

  directories and files and then bringing

  the whole thing back up it's basically

  it's even more complex than a reboot

  what they're doing it's because these

  because these devices are not made for

  this at all like that like you know if

  you want that kind of thing you need

  you know networked pcs and macs like

  iPads are so not made for multi-user and

  they're not willing to change iOS and

  major ways to fix that they're only

  willing to do like that was kind of like

  minor lip service stuff so you know if

  you look at like Apple education their

  history they they were always kind of

  like the the fancy expensive ones that

  you'd have a few of in the schools I've

  I think very I was in school long before

  any kind of one-to-one program so maybe

  that's different now but you Apple did

  well it when it was Mac's only when they

  weren't trying to split their consumer

  computing ideal into these two very


  platforms of Mac and iPad so when

  there's just one platform for them to

  focus on and in a world where that

  platform could basically be an island it

  was like here is a really nice desktop

  that you can use to edit videos and do

  desktop publishing on they were really

  good at that but today you have large

  fleets of these you know always

  networked strongly Web Services based

  application platforms and enterprise

  management tools and Apple just doesn't

  do that nearly as well or nearly as

  competitively as Google and Microsoft

  and other and other PC vendors that that

  have you know tools for schools and

  stuff I don't see that really ever

  changing Apple is not that good at web

  services they're not that good at

  enterprise management tools they're in

  in all the other areas of their business

  they're actually pulling away from that

  so and and I like I also even questioned

  like if you're you know back in the

  olden days there was always that thing

  like you know what no one gets fired for

  for buying IBM if you're an IT

  administrator at a school and you are

  tasked with this site with making this

  kind of decision of like do you do you

  invest heavily in the Apple platform or

  in G suite would you trust knowing

  today's Apple knowing how they do

  services how how they maintain

  applications over time would you trust

  building your school out on like class

  kid and the classroom or school work

  whatever it's called like all that stuff

  would you trust that to actually be not

  only bug free when it ships not today

  when it ships sometime in the future

  would you trust that to be stable enough

  and more importantly would you trust

  that to be maintained and supported over

  a reasonable amount of time I think

  that's a huge risk for an IT

  administrator to take I think that's way

  too high of a risk knowing the way Apple

  does things these days and knowing how

  seemingly stable and already well

  developed and well established that

  competing platforms are in these regards

  I don't see this being a really good

  decision for an IT administrator pretty

  much anywhere that gives me back to my

  earlier point like this this is this

  enterprise software for school so I can

  enterprise software and

  definitions like software where the

  person you have to sell it to is not the

  person who has to use it and there's two

  angles in that the one that we already

  talked about which is like management of

  large devices in in a world where you

  can actually conceive of one to one

  program is where every student gets one

  device like that was not even in a

  twinkle in anyone's eye when I was in

  school it was like you had a computer

  lab with like six computers in it for

  the whole school yeah and they're all

  Apple two's by the way not Mac's but

  that enterprise management thing like

  some of the people who watch this event

  I could see on Twitter were from that

  camp like a saying okay Apple I have a

  problem my problem is I have lots of

  students I have lots of devices and

  dealing with them is difficult you gotta

  keep track of them all you got to keep

  them all up-to-date you gotta manage

  them all tell me Apple how you're going

  to make my job as an enterprise school

  administer easy that is enterprise

  software in both the good and bad senses

  and I tend to look at the bad sense this

  is the bad sense is say Apple or Google

  or anybody makes these school

  administrators lives easier and gives

  them an easy way to manage large fleets

  of devices I as a parent or as an and as

  a journal citizen interested in the

  education the country thinks okay but

  does every student having devices make

  their education better like I don't care

  how easy it is for you school

  administrator to manage the devices like

  I understand that's what that's how they

  sell it to you I understand that's why

  you're choosing because you want

  something that can do all the things you

  want to hook into your back-end system

  that keeps track of all your students

  you want to be able to you know but I'm

  not that interested in how easy it is

  for you to do your job the whole point

  of the school is education is it better

  for the kids for everyone to have these

  devices does does the device that the

  kids get is there a difference to them

  or is there no difference like do the

  kids care if they have a Chromebook or

  the Apple stuff does it make a

  difference to their education

  just like at all do they you know so

  that that's my question and the second

  thing is that I worry about is like the

  other constituency the that is not the

  students that Apple appeals to just in

  general but in education is regardless

  of how hard it is to manage the devices

  right I feel like there is still and you

  know maybe this is actually increased in

  the recent decade some cachet

  for a school to say our kids have iPads

  or have MacBook Air as we going back a

  little bit in time or you know have

  Apple devices that if if some1 was

  touring to schools to think of buying a

  house in the neighborhood and this is

  the neighborhood school your kid would

  go to or if it's a private school or

  whatever and you have Apple Hardware

  everywhere that makes the school seem

  better because Apple thanks to its

  marketing and the general high quality

  of its products in the consumer around

  the scene is a premium brand and as like

  as it's fancy right and so the parents

  go all the kids here have iPads again

  did the parents actually think if they

  sat down to think about well our iPads

  going to make my child's school

  experience better than having one more

  teacher and making the class sizes

  smaller our iPads gonna make my kids

  educational experience better than if

  they had Chromebooks they're not even

  thinking about you're just thinking all

  the kids in this school every school has

  an iBook right that's why people are

  making that Stampede for the 50 other

  iBooks because Apple you know makes

  fancy nice devices that most people

  usually can't afford and if you can

  suddenly get them for 50 bucks

  it's like there's a rush on that because

  there is a perceived value of perceived

  coolness cash a marketing value whatever

  like status for Apple devices so if you

  can get them cheap all of a sudden

  people want to get them because they

  want a piece of that and that bothers me

  in education too because I don't want to

  pick schools based on how fancy the

  hardware is it's like picking schools

  based on like you know mahogany railings

  on the stairs I mean there is something

  to be said for schools that look fancy

  and feel nice and everything but as far

  as education goes like through the kids

  care that the railings are mahogany like

  beyond a mint beyond a minimum level of

  school upkeep and temperature control

  and safety and you know not you know

  pumping carbon monoxide into the

  building because the furnace is old like

  obviously they can get bad but once you

  get into sort of the competent realm I'm

  much less interested in that stuff and

  then I am about all the other much more

  important aspects of the school and I

  even if Apple was massive you know take

  Google Google seems to be very

  successful at appealing to people who

  are Enterprise administrators but I

  continue to wonder in a school where the

  enterprise administrators currently in a

  workplace where the enterprise

  traitors their job is awesome and they

  love their vendor do their end users

  love the product do the teachers love

  the product the students love the

  practice it actually make their

  education better I don't know I have a

  real crisis of faith about technology

  and education I guess so it feels to me

  having not actually watched this

  particular event but based on all of the

  recaps that I've read it feels to me

  like this was I forget which one of you

  said I think was Marco this was a pep

  rally for Apple but it was it was Apple

  trying to say hey you should consider us

  despite us in other words you know

  there's so many there are so many things

  that we don't do the way you want us to

  do it but you know what there's some

  other stuff that's really cool and I

  guess there's a couple of ways to look

  at that right like you could look at

  that as Apple is obnoxious and full of

  themselves and oh of course we'll still

  Thun see and look at us and our fancy

  iPads and our a are and but I don't

  really take it that way at all I took it

  as hey look we aspire we genuinely

  aspire to make a engaging interesting

  enlightening and and diverse in terms of

  experienced educational like not event

  but you know we want education be

  interesting basically and and here's a

  way that we are or several ways that we

  are enabling that in making education

  interesting and making the education

  part a relatively frictionless now the

  penalty is that the poor school

  administrators gonna pay for that

  tenfold but for the teacher and the

  student if you believe what apples if

  you buy what Apple selling literally and


  then it's reasonably frictionless right

  so you should consider this because we

  are like the aspirational version of

  Education that all of us really want

  aren't we you should really look at us

  despite the fact that we're way too

  expensive and way too difficult to work

  with and that's how I took the event

  again not having seen it I took it as

  look we're here you know

  knock-knock-knock we're here

  we we do cool stuff and if you really

  want to get your kids engaged maybe try

  us because no kid today wants the laptop

  anymore I mean maybe that's what they

  need I mean I know you said that earlier

  market although I challenge I'm not

  entirely sure why I mean my gut says

  yeah they of course I need laptops but

  then I asked myself well why I'm not

  here to have that argument at this

  particular moment it doesn't really

  matter in the grand scheme of things but

  everyone says iPads are like everyone's

  gonna be doing tablets in the future and

  cuz because my kid loves tablets and

  doesn't order laptop is and so hey wait

  till your kid is a little bit older and

  then like you know how many kids get to

  be under high school without without

  having or wanting a laptop yeah yeah III

  agree with you but all I'm saying is

  there's the obnoxious Apple hubris way

  of looking at this which is we are so

  much better than everyone else because

  look at how cool we are and then there's

  the more humble hey man we're cool too

  right like check us out we were worth at

  least considering and that's how I took

  the event but in the end of the day it

  all come well not all but generally

  speaking and this is what Solinsky and I

  were kind of going back and forth about

  in general it all comes down to money

  and it's just too damn expensive we are

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  sponsoring our show now we haven't

  really talked about the actual product

  announcement that happened during this

  event so product we should yeah a

  product which I mean to be fair I I

  don't think anyone should have really

  expected more than this I think we

  overall myself included aspirationally

  hoping for more than just a new iPad but

  realistically this is what the tea

  leaves were showing so yeah Marco tell

  us about this new iPad so it is updated

  guts for the actually you know

  interesting one that they released last

  year without an event at all so who is

  the the last last spring about a year

  ago they released the inexpensive nine

  point seven inch iPad for 329 built with

  old parts basically to make that cheaper

  and you know it's kind of like the like

  the way the iPhone se is kind of like

  built with old parts on the iPhone end

  to make that cheaper it's basically the

  ipad SE it they basically kind of remade

  the ipad air one with modern guts so it

  doesn't have some of the niceties and

  then so this the the news now is that

  they have now updated that model and by

  the way I think that model is almost

  single-handedly responsible for the

  turnaround in iPad sales I think the

  numbers show from the analyst and stuff

  that iPad sales went up starting with

  this model because it turns out when you

  drop the price of the entry-level model

  to a lineup a lot more people want to

  buy it so they can learn a lot from the

  laptop line anyway that whoever's point

  it was before kids do love iPads like oh

  yeah they're young kids all episode

  there there was always

  an appetite to desire for iPads but

  you're not gonna buy a $600 iPad for a

  toddler so you but a $300 one starts to

  get into the realm of possibility yeah

  exactly so anyway so this they

  introduced this this you know lower

  price point for the entry-level iPad

  last year and it sold very well and then

  now they've updated it with newer newer

  components it it is now roughly the guts

  of an iPhone 7 in most important ways

  just in like an iPad size case with an

  iPad size screen it is not the nicest

  screen it's it's like it's basically

  like an iPad air one kind of screen so

  it doesn't have the clothes lamination

  of the screen to the glass you could

  there's like a small visible gap I mean

  it's not that big on that topic I would

  love to know if someone knows that

  increases repair ability because that's

  all I could think of it's like one of

  these laminated screen maybe it's

  because if students drop it they can

  replace the top class without replacing

  the screen or maybe I'm wrong about it

  so someone the Genius Bar let us know

  that's an interesting thought I mean I

  figured it just for cost you know and

  for segmentation because see I think one

  of the issues I have with this oh yeah

  anyway if you go down the specs there's

  not a lot of differences between this

  and the 10.5 inch iPad pro there are

  some and and they might be big for you

  but it's actually not hugely different

  and it's half the price of the iPad so

  that you know there are some differences

  and again they they might they may

  matter to you and as a friend Federico

  keeps you pointed out the new cheap iPad

  does not have the promotion 120 Hertz

  refresh rate does not have the P 3 wide

  color true tone a smart connector for

  the keyboard and then the camera is not

  as good does not have image

  stabilization does not shoot 4k video

  and it only has first-generation touch

  ID it does now support the Apple pencil

  which is interesting I don't know how

  much that's going to matter in practice

  because it leads not for schools

  I can't imagine Apple push and that's so

  hard by the way it's like the pencil

  support every one of the slot the whole

  visual theme of the show was things

  drawn with the Apple pencil every slide

  every like it was very consistent

  beautiful drawings as always with Apple

  beautiful presentation

  they were leaning heavily on the pencil

  but the pencil of course is a hundred

  extra dollars that's speaking you know

  that's why people talk about the iPad so

  you have the iPad then you got fifty two

  hundred dollars for a case one hundred

  dollars for the pencil and the crayon

  was half the price but it doesn't do

  tilt it just doesn't do pressure just as

  tilt and touch the Logitech crayon is

  interesting it's like if they if they

  would sell that separately and if it

  would work with regular iPads it doesn't

  so it so it only works with this one it

  doesn't work with the iPad pros and it

  is only sold to the education Channel so

  like you can't just go in Apple common

  order one which is unfortunate because

  it is a it is it's like logitech's it's

  Logitech's device that is really an

  Apple pencil inside it has the same

  benefits the pencil

  except for does not have pressure

  sensitivity but I know a lot of people

  who buy that and it's like a little bit

  more ergonomic it has a button like

  there's like it's actually kind of

  better in some ways I mean you know it

  doesn't look as nice and everything but

  honestly I would probably have bought

  one of those if it working the iPad pro

  but people can't use it without the

  pressure sensitivity though like I

  continued to think that the Apple pencil

  I mean the a pencil is great and all but

  I think it's just too expensive like

  maybe for the pro models it's like who

  cares but it just I really wish there

  was a pencil for less than $100 yeah and

  and it's and it really does have a few

  pretty annoying design flaws

  I don't like Mike made the case on

  connected this past week that we all

  made fun of it how like you can charge

  it by sticking it up the butt of the

  iPad and it looks really funny but he

  made the case that that's you know

  actually a good thing in practice and

  that's fine

  I think the epic lens has lots of design

  problems it you know it has the issue of

  it's you know there's nothing to grip on

  it it is a little bit too big and a

  little bit too heavy it the battery life

  is not good enough and because there is

  no power switch it just the battery is

  constantly draining itself if you're

  like carrying it in a bag and it's in

  motion or using the iPad without using

  the pencil and of course there's nowhere

  to put it on the iPad or around the iPad

  there's lots of problems that pencil has

  the logitech crayon solves some of those

  and it's kind of a shame that you have

  to rely on that that like you know Apple

  doesn't like stooped down to the level

  of making something ergonomic with a

  button on it even though that would


  get a better product in some ways but

  anyway go match this iPad the stuff it's

  a really good deal like it's a you get

  you're getting a lot for this and if

  anything I think it really highlights

  how incredibly expensive the iPad pro is

  for what you're getting there like to

  get a decently equipped one of these

  which we'll get to in a little while you

  know you're looking at you know 400

  bucks you know once you throw in

  accessories maybe more with the iPad pro

  you're looking at about 800 and it's

  really it's you're getting four for

  double the price you're getting a nicer

  and slightly larger screen the smart

  connector but gives you the opportunity

  to spend another 200 hours on the

  keyboard and a little bit better camera

  which a lot of people don't use or don't

  care about on the iPad so it's like if

  the difference that you're getting is

  and it's not I don't think it's a twice

  the price difference to go from this to

  the iPad pro and okay and this is only

  gonna be for a few months because

  presumably in June they're probably

  going to update the iPad pro to make it

  even better but I do think this kind of

  this kind of illustrates quite how

  expensive the iPad pro is compared to

  how expensive it needs to be because

  this shows what they can do with your at


  this iPad feels a little bit chancy to

  me though like I understand it's got to

  be a cut-down model like it makes sense

  that in the product line I think they

  should have a cheap iPad setting aside

  to get educate setting aside education

  just just for regular people right but

  some of the cheeping out like I I've

  complained about this before I really

  wish Apple would make less expensive

  products that were not merely old parts

  or old like a purpose-built product to

  hit a much lower price point like in

  this case the one that really burns me

  is touch ID ii not doesn't have 2nd gen

  touch ID because that just feels like

  you're being is like come on like I

  understand I understand I don't need P 3

  color gamut I don't need promotion like

  true tone yeah maybe smart connector

  okay maybe that's like a feature that

  schools don't want or whatever camera

  sure by all means cheap out but the

  touch ID you unlock it like it just it

  just it's like everything like we can't


  we can have any nice things it's like as

  if Apple was selling cheaper to imagine

  Apple sold lots of Mac's if they were

  selling cheaper Mac's with USB 2 in them

  still right and it'd be like come on a

  certain point USB 2 isn't it more