Hello Internet

Hello Internet Episode One Hundred


  jokes and the fact that they joke about

  a thing means that it's not serious and

  so that they're contributing in this way

  like I think that's a path down towards

  crazy town and the only result then is

  like Oh everybody has to just say things

  that are perfectly acceptable online

  like the other thing is I also just feel

  bad for this guy because his whole life

  has been on hold while this trial has

  been waiting to happen

  and it's been like a year and a half or

  something before it has actually gone to

  trial and this is a thing where I have

  these bad feelings about the Internet

  where it's like these little storms

  happen and it's like a person becomes an

  unperson even before anything official

  has occurred so even though this guy

  hasn't gone to trial it's like Oh his

  whole life has been destroyed for the

  past year and a half while this is

  occurring because nobody wants to hire

  the guy who is waiting for his trial

  about inciting hate on the Internet to

  go through and it's like Oh even if he

  wasn't ever punished like he has still

  been totally punished in the meantime

  it's like a terrifying thing in society

  that that can happen it's like you get

  swept up in something and so much of

  your life is destroyed and even if in

  the end it's like oh we're gonna

  overturn that case and we're not gonna

  put you in prison and don't mind about

  it it's like well the internet never

  forgets and now no one will ever want to

  associate with you because you are this

  person even though like many people

  don't think you did anything wrong

  like it just it's terrible for UK law

  and for people who make anything on the


  in the UK I'm not condoning it but I do

  wonder in the back of my mind if it

  could be the making of him because he's

  a pretty funny guy he could become like

  a really funny successful youtuber now

  again I'm not saying he wanted the

  attention but now that has happened I

  hope it becomes the making of him for

  his sake even if like everything turns

  up roses for him in the future somehow

  it doesn't change the fact that it's

  like okay well who are we gonna bring up

  next on this obscenity law just start

  picking youtubers in the UK very early

  you said like so many people who are

  leaving comments on reddit hmm I don't

  know it's like such an incredible

  overreaction do you have this fear

  because you're worried that it'll affect

  you one day because quite often I

  thought your fears boil down to that

  somehow lucky you skate one day someone

  will take something you've done in the

  wrong context and you'll end up in hot

  water or you really just being quite you

  know Noble here and just worried about

  the world in general I don't know how to

  say this very well in the context of

  this conversation because we've just

  been talking about Nazis right but the

  ability to express thoughts is extremely

  important and the power to suppress what

  thoughts people are allowed to express

  is terrifyingly powerful it worries me

  on a society level right like when you

  ask Oh am I personally concerned not

  really I produce the most g-rated

  content in the world and the podcast has

  a million hours of context around it and

  I don't think aside from our opening up

  the wound of the necessary lies of

  society like I don't think we say

  anything that's terrible on the show so

  I'm not personally concerned but I I

  really do feel that there's something

  like dangerously corrosive here I always

  try to stay away from specific political

  examples because I don't think that that

  is very instructive but I will mention

  one that came up like in a conversation

  with someone so this is like in an

  American context but the conversation

  was around the idea of this person

  basically wanted to make it illegal to

  deny the fact that climate change was

  occurring all right they're like you

  shouldn't be able to express this idea

  online it should be against the law hmm

  the reasoning was it's so potentially

  harmful spreading misinformation around

  this may be the end of the species right

  maybe the end of all life on Earth

  they're like this idea that there's no

  climate change is so terrible we should

  put it into law that people are not

  allowed to express it

  it's like Oh

  okay that's absolutely terrifying even

  if you agree with that that opens the

  door to the idea that like you're

  seeding power to a government to tell

  you what you're allowed to think hey

  news flash your team isn't in charge

  right now so how would you feel if a law

  was passed that said oh you're not

  allowed to express the idea that the

  climate is changing then suddenly is

  like oh I don't like that idea at all

  like yeah of course this is why like you

  have to defend the ability to express

  ideas and thoughts in the broadest

  possible form and so I feel like any

  incursion into this territory is just

  like a big danger yeah so that's why

  like I feel these stories very strongly

  and it's like yes I will agree with you

  like there are tiny areas that we can

  carve out direct incitement to violence

  like attacks on a particular person but

  even then I feel like we need to define

  that very tightly what do we mean by

  that it's like there's a cleanliness

  monster that is going through the world

  making everything have to be clean and

  safe we can't even make jokes about the

  Nazis because the Nazis are not clean

  and safe right so let's just put some

  antiseptic over this and just make it go

  away all right and I think it's bad like

  I think it's really bad for society and

  there's something about it that just

  seems like it's getting worse and the

  producers is a perfect example psycho

  fifteen years after World War two we can

  make an entire movie that makes fun of

  the Nazis but 60 years after World War

  two jokes about the Nazis are forbidden

  they're so dangerous we can't possibly

  even speak them aloud I don't think

  that's good for society yeah here's a

  topic rady where I feel like I need

  pushback where am I wrong here or do you

  agree I do fundamentally agree so I

  don't want to be the good person who now

  gets up here and talks against free

  speech the only thing that I don't like

  about the way you argue this point it

  doesn't mean I disagree with the point

  it's just I don't like your stylistic

  argument and that is I always feel like

  the people who are like the scumbags of

  the world who would putting all the scum

  out there that I hate and the dirty

  stuff I acknowledge there

  right to do it right so I'm on your side

  but I sometimes feel you kind of clothed

  them in righteous garments when you talk

  about defending like their right to

  express thoughts and ideas like this is

  just people taking a dump everywhere and

  I feel like you're kind of using this

  argument of let's have a free debate and

  you make a lot of these people sound

  better than they are I don't deny their

  right to exist and do these things but I

  wish you didn't make them sound so noble

  yeah I mean the reason I talk about

  thoughts and ideas is because I feel

  like I'm trying to keep it

  generic yeah but I think by doing that

  you're bringing a lot of scumbags into

  the fold of nice people yeah but that's

  the problem of letting people express

  all of their thoughts and ideas here it

  is guess what some people have terrible

  thoughts and ideas I don't think these

  people were taking a dump all over the

  place are expressing thoughts or ideas

  they dislike taking a dump but they are

  thoughts and ideas they are concepts

  expressed with language I don't think

  that there is a way to draw a circle

  where we can say we all agree these

  patterns of words are good and these

  patterns of words are terrible no no I

  think we can do that I just don't think

  we can ban them I think it's fair to sit

  around and start weighing things and

  saying that's a good idea that's an

  interesting thought and idea that's a

  smart thing you said you there who just

  wrote you're gay that's not a good

  thought or idea that's not constructive

  you're an idiot but you're allowed to do

  it like that's a perfect example right

  like the canonical youtube comment

  you're you are gay yeah perhaps there

  has been no YouTube comment more

  frequently said than that one right

  right and it's like yeah I'll sit here

  and agree with you like 100 percent like

  it adds nothing it's no good it's not


  but I think it's too easy in a

  conversation to pick a particular thing

  that we can say like oh we all agree

  that this is no good

  but if you're trying to craft laws I

  think it's really hard to craft a law

  that can define what do we mean by this

  and that then as an additional layer can

  be in

  forced in a reasonable way and count

  Acula is a good example of this we're

  okay if this is the law of the land in

  the United Kingdom how is it that like

  just this one guy got swept up by this

  law and meanwhile like there are actual

  Nazis like expressing actual Nazi

  thoughts and that's cool like okay well

  then you have some kind of bizarre

  selective enforcement of this I'd love

  to know the story behind this there must

  be a bigger story it is amazing isn't it

  this guy got done with all the other

  stuff that's out there it's weird I

  think it's because it was a viral video

  right so we're just like it becomes a

  bunch of attention and then someone

  files a complaint and like now it starts

  getting run up the chain I feel like for

  my old days as a teacher I understand

  very well the concept of like a small

  thing the instant someone makes an

  official complaint about it it like oh

  god like now it's going to be run up the

  chain and like no one can stop the

  machine that keeps making this a bigger

  deal than it actually is right even if

  no one involved in the chain wants to

  keep escalating it there's an incentive

  at every level to keep escalating it so

  I feel like this can just be like the

  random weather of the Internet yeah but

  so that's why I do want to be clear like

  I'm not saying like everybody has an

  equal contribution to the conversation

  because obviously they don't some people

  are really smart and they can contribute

  more to conversations some people are

  really stupid and they don't have very

  much to add at all anyway you just as I

  said I agree with you you just asked for

  some pushback and my pushback is the way

  you frame your argument I think cloaks

  these people in garments of

  righteousness that they're entitled to

  the garments but I just feel a bit like

  let me just say the reason that I do say

  it is thoughts and ideas is it just like

  when I made those videos about the

  voting systems a long time ago that

  there's a reason I don't talk about

  specific political parties because as

  soon as you talk about specific

  political parties the only thing people

  want is whatever voting system gets

  their guys into office right that's the

  one that seems the most fair and you

  need to have a system where everyone can

  agree that the election is fair before

  the election takes place when I'm

  talking about thoughts and ideas in the

  public realm we need to talk about them

  in the most abstract way because if we

  start talking about like what do we do

  with good ideas and what do we do with

  bad ideas like the conversation about

  how do you manage conversation is

  already poisoned because everybody has

  in their own head like the idea of what

  a bad idea is and then so we should do

  bad things to bad ideas

  like the idea of like Oh which side of a

  debate do you want to not allow to speak

  so that's why I try to talk about it in

  general terms because I think that is

  the only sensible way to try to think

  through the topic and yeah of course

  whenever you're discussing freedom of

  speech and you are defending it you are

  by definition having to defend the most

  fringe of fringe people that's just the

  nature of this conversation and I think

  it's why free speech defenders are often

  at a bit of a disadvantage because like

  by necessity you you're like the guy who

  has to defend the Nazi joke when it

  would be much easier to just join in

  with a sanctimonious crowd and be like

  he should have phrased it differently

  like I don't appreciate that joke at all

  and I don't think it's good for the

  world I do think he should have phrased

  it but he's very good how many more

  people do you have to see step on the

  landmine before you think hmm

  maybe I won't walk into that minefield

  how many people do you have to see get

  blown up to take it in a slightly

  adjacent way I'm reading a book which is

  about the court case that happened with

  Gawker a few years ago with the Hulk

  Hogan sex tape and Peter Thiel was

  funding this lawsuit against Gawker it's

  an interesting book so far but part of

  what they're talking about as well is

  this effect that like gossip columns

  have on people's ability to think in

  public and it's like oh people start

  worrying when there's a gossip column

  that's going after the technology sector

  that it it naturally has people close

  ranks much further than they otherwise

  would like they're much more reluctant

  to express any ideas in public because

  they're worried about it being twisted

  because like that's what the gossip

  column does and that's what I mean when

  I say like I think there's something

  dangerous in this kind of

  that is like even if you're a million

  miles from making Nazi jokes like you

  said it's you feel like ah the boundary

  of acceptable conversation has been

  moved and so if I want to stay far from

  that boundary I need to move even

  farther in to only acceptable things you

  know so it's like I want to stay a

  hundred metres away from that boundary

  and we keep pulling that boundary and

  further and further it has more of an

  effect than just the people at the very

  edge and I just don't think that that's

  good for public conversation fair enough

  sorry about that I didn't mean to rant

  for so long you've passed my guy this

  whole time I've been ranting Brady to

  the dead fish on the H I love me for my

  computer screen I never close that image

  it's still there hello internets this

  audio sounds terrible because I have

  just gotten into a hotel room I'm on the

  last leg of a multi leg trip and without

  my regular audio equipment and you know

  when you're traveling it's very easy to

  find yourself without the stuff that you

  really need including for example your

  computer files you grab your laptop and

  you go but you know what you forgot that

  thing that's sitting back at home on

  your desktop what are you gonna do in

  that scenario well under most

  circumstances you're just screwed

  there's nothing that you can do but if

  you have taken our advice on hello

  internet and installed Backblaze then

  everything is fine because Backblaze in

  addition to being the backup service

  that you should obviously have on your

  computer will also allow you anywhere in

  the world to access any of your files

  and speaking from experience not only

  has back lays on multiple times totally

  saved my bacon with lost files back lays

  has been super helpful for grabbing a

  file that I just saved in a random spot

  on my hard drive it didn't really think

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  sitting in front of your computer and

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  that computer right now you need to open

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  internet that lets Backblaze know that

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  slash hello Internet alright enjoy the

  rest of the show I I gotta get going so

  there was a full-page ad in my copy of

  The Times Sunday Times this morning

  Mark Zuckerberg kind of apologizing to

  the world but in that kind of in a

  weaselly way where he's not really

  apologizing is also blaming other people

  right like the way a spider who's

  pretending to be a person would

  apologize he's got a terrible signature

  by the way Matt psycho does he mmm well

  that's because spiders riding inside of

  human suits have a really hard time with

  that finger dexterity that's an

  interesting theory because it is kind of

  spider like in fact I took a photo of it

  to send you so I'll show you maybe this

  is wrong maybe this is me bullying a

  public person but I always just get the

  feeling that Mark Zuckerberg is like

  there's a spider riding around in a

  robot that's shaped like Mark Zuckerberg

  this is the feeling like whenever he

  talks whenever he moves it's like

  there's not a person in there there's a

  spider in there here's my question all

  right Facebook is in a new controversy

  to do with data and stuff like that we

  can talk about it in a minute if you


  but my overall question is because this

  this is gonna keep happening to Facebook

  because they're a company that seems to

  cause a lot of controversy is Facebook

  too big to fail now is facebook gonna be

  with us forever

  it's interesting if you'd asked me a

  month ago I would have said no that I

  think Facebook is too big to fail but

  Facebook has done an amazing job of

  collecting some of the worst PR in the

  world in a short period of time just at

  the wrong time zeitgeist why's that

  people are super receptive to it like I

  think the idea that hey maybe all of the

  social media is bad for us was really

  coming to fruition earlier in the year

  and then it's like right around that

  time Facebook had some of the worst PR

  in the world and then they have this

  most recent scandal it just might be a

  perfect storm of things to drive a stake

  through the heart of Facebook but that

  being said I think even if it were to

  happen we are at a technological point

  in time where there is always going to

  be a natural monopoly for a social

  network if you strike Facebook down

  something else will just grow up and be

  stronger in its place and will be

  functionally equivalent to Facebook I

  mean there has to be one doesn't there

  for a social network to actually work

  the way it should they sort of has to be

  one doesn't there otherwise we're not

  networked yeah 100%

  I am really convinced that it's not just

  Facebook I think that the big tech

  companies exist in no small part because

  we're at a technological point where

  there are these natural monopolies I

  think that search and video are a kind

  of natural monopolies that Google has

  that there will be a super big video

  site I think it's almost inevitable I

  almost think that like Amazon is kind of

  at a logistics and server running kind

  of natural monopolies that makes it

  almost impossible for any other company

  to compete with them I think we really

  are in a weird phase of the world where

  that is a truth

  so these big companies exist and even if

  we were to somehow break them up it

  would just take a couple of years before

  the thing that replaces them is is just

  as big because everything is pointing in

  that direction but yeah you're 100%


  the social network is the most strong

  version of that like definitionally

  there almost has to be one do you use

  Facebook anymore

  I haven't used Facebook in any

  meaningful way in years in any

  meaningful way but do you use it non

  meaningful ways yes I do use it in a non

  meaningful way which is that I have a

  CGP grey like business page right

  because if you're a public person

  Facebook doesn't let you have a personal

  webpage you have to have this business

  page I don't even know if it still works

  but I did have set up like an if this

  than that trigger that would just

  automatically post stuff from the

  website onto that page yeah and so when

  I can when I say like I haven't used it

  in a meaningful way that's what I mean

  like I haven't logged into Facebook and

  like six months at a bare minimum yeah

  and even then it would be just to like

  check on a thing I pretty much checked

  out of Facebook the instant they started

  that you need to pay us to send out your

  posts to the people who follow you on

  Facebook thing hmm

  that was for me the day Facebook died I

  was like okay well I don't use Facebook

  on a personal level anyway and so if the

  only thing that I use it for is on a

  business level and now you're playing

  the Mafia game of like oh it's a nice

  business page you have there sure would

  be a shame if something happened to it

  then it's like okay I'm out I'm out I'm

  not really gonna play this game I'm not

  gonna participate in this so now I

  haven't used it personally in ever to

  you yeah I mean I have pages for all my

  different projects that I maintain yeah

  I go in there every day and have a look

  just to check what my friends are up to

  and I don't post a lot of stuff myself

  on there unless I'm doing like something

  amazing like yeah amazing my life is I

  don't post a pending three weeks in a

  row sitting at a desk editing videos but

  and that's the social media effect where

  everybody's life seems a million times

  more amazing than yours only the most

  amazing things they do and of course

  he's contributing to making the world a

  worse place by doing that brady you have

  to post your mundane days as well I

  think it's a problematic

  company but I almost feel like it's too

  big to fail because I look at you know

  although I don't reach all my followers

  because of the Mafia thing you mentioned

  do you have you know followings of all

  these Facebook pages and it seems like I

  can't just throw that away again I like

  ignore us so I mean I can but you

  totally can right I mean I'm willing to

  bet that if you dig into your analytic

  data on YouTube that Facebook is a much

  smaller portion of the views than you

  might expect that it is yeah I think

  you'd be right if that is the case I

  would certainly encourage you to not

  waste your time on it because if you're

  tracking like how much time do you spend

  on Facebook and how many views does that

  actually translate into I bet that

  equation would show very fast that

  Facebook is not worth actually spending

  any time on I would definitely say I

  don't waste time on it I do probably

  waste time on you know looking at my

  friends puppy but I don't waste time

  business on it like if there's a new

  numberphile video I'll just go in say

  hey everyone there's a new numberphile

  video I hope you like it mm-hmm

  here's the link and then leave and I

  won't hang around reading comments and

  you know it's it's perfunctory Facebook

  terrible I like this much cuz I could

  have expired a thing you've got me

  thinking now

  we have much to complain about we do

  have much to complain about Braden we

  may need another 100 episodes gray Oh Oh

  Brady you can't do that to the people I

  can't do that to the people

  can't do that to the people

  hi this is Dirk from Veritas okay here

  we go here we go hmm this is Dirk from

  Vera stab Liam and you're listening to

  the hundredth episode of hello Internet

  maybe it's time to stop making fun of my

  name green vs. yellow tennis balls yep

  this has become quite the thing yeah

  I've seen a little bit of this on my

  Twitter timeline so for people who don't

  know I'll do the quick background gray

  and his wife had a little marital

  discussion about where the tennis balls

  were green or yellow which caused gray

  to do a little tweaked poll about it do

  you think tennis balls are green or

  yellow lots of people got into it got

  lots of votes it even got a little bit

  of like media coverage which was quite

  funny yeah and we discussed it on hello


  and it was really interesting what

  happened as a result of the hello

  internet discussion there was lots of

  tim foolery

  there are several scientific studies

  done I don't know if you've seen the one

  that I've popped in the show notes where

  someone actually took my advice and

  measured the light spectrum from lime

  from lemon and from a tennis ball which

  it was closer to and so you know they

  wrote up a little scientific report and

  many a laugh was had and that could have

  been the end of it except that one

  listener I think he must have found out

  that his girlfriend and his girlfriend's

  father were going to the tennis so he

  decided to tell them I listen to this

  podcast they were talking about where

  the tennis balls a green or yellow and

  the father who is not a Tim who was just

  the father of a girl whose boyfriend

  listens to Holly winter net right was

  quite taken by this and the next day he

  found himself in a little gaggle of

  people who were waiting to meet and get

  autographs from quite possibly the

  greatest tennis player ever current

  world number one tennis player although

  he's about to just go back down to

  number two but I think he's the greatest

  tennis player ever Roger Federer they

  were all waiting for Roger Federer to

  walk past between whatever matches he

  was playing sign a couple of autographs

  and whisk away and while he was signing

  these autographs this dad calls out

  Roger had tennis balls green or yellow

  and amongst all like the confusion Roger

  Federer at the question two suddenly

  took him and he looked up and he went

  I think he said something long was of

  the yellow aren't they mm-hmm and then a

  few other people in the quadrant yeah

  yeah they're yellow and this guy the

  dead who was filming this with his

  mobile phone said I think they're green

  but lots of other people think they're

  yellow and then Roger Federer said Nana

  they're yellow mm-hmm and then walked

  off you know that in itself I think was

  a great hello internet moment and I

  declared then and there that this Tim's

  girlfriend's dead is gonna get a Hello

  Internet Medal of Honor is that legal he

  doesn't even listen to the show but yeah

  I think he's getting around he's getting

  one and he's what within enough degrees

  of separation from the initiating

  incident that he's gonna get a medal

  it's never been written anywhere that

  you have to be a listener to get a Medal

  of Honor imagine it helps I mean to be

  fair I don't think we have anything

  written anywhere about how anything

  works but yes that's true we haven't

  written down rules about how the medals

  work now a lot of people said that I

  shouldn't be just giving them

  willy-nilly and I needed your approval

  but even if you said no to this I would

  say too bad he's getting one this is

  what happens people maybe could I

  stopped him no often I could not I could

  not would you stop me is the question

  you wouldn't veto this one surely this

  is a great moment having the greatest

  tennis player in history weigh in on

  this - squabble about the color of

  tennis books I certainly could disagree

  with you one you send me a video and

  from my perspective it's some guy in a

  crowd is commenting on the tennis ball

  thing right it's like oh okay

  great I feel like the medals should be

  going to actual listeners of the show so

  I do feel like I can disagree with you

  but I just you seem so tickled by this

  that I know there's nothing I can do to

  stop you from simply mailing out one of

  these medals to a guy who's going to be

  very surprised to just get a box that's

  an award it would be the second one

  awarded look right I see what you mean

  about you have to be a listener right

  like you have to be a citizen of a

  certain country to win certain honors

  but I think medals of Honor generally

  are just for the furtherance of the

  greatness of hello Internet and this

  definitely has furthered the cause in a

  very special way to me so I thought it

  was fantastic right I thought was

  absolutely fantastic I had a right laugh

  at it and that could have been it just

  so you

  understand I know you don't really

  appreciate Who Roger Federer is this is

  the equivalent of say instead of tennis

  balls you and your wife had been

  discussing something about mr. chompers

  ears you couldn't decide something about

  his ears or not mm-hmm and then someone

  went and got an official comment from

  Charles Darwin about it this is what it

  is to me this is a level of greatness in

  the field this is the Charles Darwin or

  Isaac Newton of tennis hmm he just

  happens to be alive this means that I'm

  officially right in your eyes is that

  how this works well that's another issue

  I tell you another thing though about

  Roger Federer that you may not

  appreciate but you know how there are

  certain things on the internet that you

  don't mess with because everyone will

  jump on you like you know electric

  fences because they have really jealous

  followers Roger Federer is one of those

  things that was about to say can you

  give me an example of things that you

  don't mess with on the Internet Brady

  like what are beehives you are not

  supposed to poke the sticks you're

  normally the one who tells me so you

  don't worry about them than me you're

  the one who says no we're not talking

  about that I have never said such a

  thing braving criticizing Roger Federer

  is such a beehive never criticize Roger

  Federer because his fans known as the

  fed heads Oh God are very zealous

  this is like tennis Logan Pollard's is

  that what this is like I'll make jokes

  about Elon Musk who the cows come home

  but I'm not saying anything bad about

  Roger Federer or his fans so annoying

  that you don't want to like him Brady is

  that one of these situations no comment

  no comment from Brady at all so anyway

  after Roger Federer weighed in on the

  debate mm-hmm

  this story for lack of a better word

  completely blew up and went absolutely

  everywhere like The Today Show in

  America it was in all the newspapers it

  was on all the web sites it was all over

  the BBC tennis balls yellow or green for

  like a day and a half or two days became

  an absolute obsession a media obsession

  any mention of gray and his wife where

  it all started or hello Internet had

  completely vanished from existence lots

  of teams were upset about this they're

  like oh they're not mentioning gray and

  then I'm mentioning hello Internet like

  that's just what happens with these

  things yeah but it became absolutely

  massive you couldn't look anywhere

  without it coming up do you care or you

  relieved that you kind of got pushed out

  of the story or I mean you kept sending

  me more and more things from stories

  about where it was being posted and the

  number one thing no I don't feel like I

  need to be credited that I worded a

  tweet that was a discussion about my

  wife and I and tennis ball like that is

  the kind of thing on the internet that

  trying to have any kind of ownership of

  that is just like an insanity right so I

  want to be really clear I would have no

  expectations that by the time this thing

  gets pattern matched up to Good Morning

  America The Good Morning America is like

  Greg and his wife we're having a

  discussion about tennis balls right like

  I would not expect that but I did have

  this different feeling where I kind of

  did not like you keeping sending me

  these articles were you like oh look

  it's over here now three or four I think

  it was three or four hundred it felt

  like I would likely continue but you are

  doing me a disservice here it was not

  that man it was three or four it wasn't

  that many but it was also on Twitter

  like people just kept sending me like

  hey look the thing is over here okay so

  there is awesome away where I feel like

  how can I say this thing without

  sounding like the world's most jaded

  asshole I think there's a thing where

  people want you to be like happy that

  this thing that you started has spread

  far and wide throughout the news media

  and my response to this is not a kind of

  happiness it's just like enough of these

  things have happened over the years I've

  seen this happen with other people

  enough over the years that this is just

  like a pattern and I feel like this is

  what the media machine does like they're

  looking for things that they know are

  going to get them views and attention

  and they will just repeat and pattern

  amplify that and copy the others what

  the others are doing

  yeah and copy the others but they copy

  the others in this like battle of the

  memes for attention of who's watching TV

  and any kind of thing like this where

  you can divide people in teams like it's

  going to spread but my feeling people

  are like oh aren't you excited like it

  made the New York Times is like not


  this is like literally the job of these

  companies is to find things that will

  get people's attention and to pattern

  amplify them across time so I almost

  felt like oh this like thing that was

  fun for the podcast like now it is

  everywhere in the world like and it's

  just been pattern amplified all over the

  place it was a strange thing to see this

  spread across the internet but that's

  what happens like catchy ideas spread it

  would be like definitionally impossible

  for them not to spread but that's how

  these things go they spread across the

  internet very fast and very far just to

  be clear I wasn't sending you those

  things because I wanted you to be like

  excited or happy or proud I was winding

  you up basically because I don't know

  how much you hate the media so the fact

  that like you and your wife just you

  know chatting about tennis balls for ten

  minutes in your house can make it as a

  news story in The Times of London yeah

  like I expect you to see that oh my god

  what where do I live in I'm sending that

  to you to like poke the grumpy old man

  and get him more upset about news not

  like well done you should be proud

  you've made it yeah I know that's 100%

  what you're doing which is also why

  Brady you may have noticed you've got

  very few responses from me Brady sends

  the articles through and is like I say

  nothing back right reply because I know

  you're trying to wind me up right and

  that's why I CC your wife into the

  messages as well because she's polite

  and replies and she was also getting a

  bit wound up and I happened to be away

  while this was going on and you were

  messaging my wife and I and I was busy

  but I came very very close to sending my

  wife a message which would have been

  something along the lines of like don't

  keep replying to Brady or just

  encouraging her because she was all like

  this is tweeting right this is

  outrageous she got the joke but yeah no

  of course of course I know you're trying

  to wind me up and it fits exactly in

  like the gray checklist of not media

  hatred but media sadness disappointment

  a little bit of despise 'el I'm not

  angry at the media I'm disappointed yeah

  I'm disappointed and next time you want

  to tell me about the brave Fourth Estate


  our democracy from all sorts of ills

  I'll remind you that they spent lots of

  time on whether or not tennis balls are

  green or yellow can I give you that I

  know we talked about how I will

  sometimes cut things that you say from

  the show segments that I find boring

  sports ball corners sometimes but I have

  to say that last episode I did have a

  real crisis of confidence of if I should

  even put up that section about necessary

  lies of society there is something about

  it that just felt like I don't know if I

  really want to open this door publicly I

  really did think about it like should we

  put up this little section we're not

  really saying anything that's terrible

  in here this is not like a brand new

  idea that has never been released into

  the world but there was something about

  it that I felt a little bit

  uncomfortable about but once the show

  was up then I immediately asked on

  Twitter like hey everybody tell me your

  necessary lies to keep civilization

  together because I'm like well when it's

  out here let's just double down and it's

  interesting because I think I got back

  many terrible answers and that people

  would just say things that like our

  phrases that you hear that simply aren't

  true so I'm trying to think about how to

  define more clearly this idea like a

  necessary lie of civilization and I

  think you're one just then as the

  transition is totally true like cheaters

  never win is a kind of civilization

  propaganda that we have to try to get

  people on board with even though it's

  not true anyway so there were a bunch of

  answers that I thought were not really

  good or just like aphorisms but I think

  the best answer that I got was from

  greed grow on reddit and the necessary

  lie is that violence is not the answer

  or violence is not the solution man

  that is a really great necessary lie of


  it's almost definitionally there to keep

  civilization together that like

  civilization is the resolution of

  problems without having to resort to

  violence and that feels like a real

  ground level kind of agreement that

  there are plenty of things that you

  could probably try to solve with

  violence but we all have to agree

  together that like we're not going to

  resort to this tool and we have to agree

  like this

  things together like we're not going to

  resort to violence as a solution but

  it's like there are plenty of situations

  where we use violence as the solution we

  have Wars right or it's like we pay

  police like to essentially force things

  to occur so I really like that as an

  answer for a necessary lie of

  civilization is like we teach kids like

  violence is not the answer violence is

  not the solution and and often can be we

  just we can't resort to it otherwise

  we'll be a bunch of chimps tearing each

  other apart

  so violence isn't a solution then

  because ultimately we tear each other

  apart violence is not the solution if

  everyone uses violence the violence can

  be a solution if a select few people use

  it yeah that's really getting to the

  core of like we were talking last unlike

  the psychopathy school of like oh we

  pull some people apart and we say like

  hey here's some things you might want to

  they're actually true or like you're

  gonna be very successful or very

  terrible people and being willing to

  resort to violence is one of those

  things it's like if everybody does this

  civilization falls apart which is why

  it's a necessary lie but like on an

  individual basis it can kind of work the

  thing it made me think about which it

  can it's like how can I don't even want

  to say it out loud when I was in middle

  school and like on the edge of being a

  kid who was about to be bullied a little

  bit and you know the adults tell you

  it's like oh I'll ignore the situation

  you know don't do anything bullies just

  feel bad about themselves which is also

  like a weird lie

  like you hear all of this advice and my

  experience as a kid was nothing stopped

  the beginning of bullying faster than

  adding a little bit of violence into the

  solution what did you do grey because my

  question I was gonna ask you was have

  you ever used violence as a solution and

  I thought there's no way he'd answer


  and you've just offered it up well your

  criminal past is not criminal it's


  what did you do did you punch someone a

  bully did you punch your bully look I

  don't even really want to get into the

  details but it sounds cooler if you

  don't tell anyway because a lot we can

  imagine something more awesome I don't

  know look here's the thing the reason

  why I would be like a potential bullying

  target is because I wasn't like a big

  buff kid or anything like shocked

  surprised younger gray was kind of a

  nerd right like total surprise I'm sure

  - absolutely every

  oh you mean he wasn't quarterback at the

  school football team yeah that's not the

  image of how it was so you just had to

  lay down a marker once you lay down a

  marker and the trick is you have to be

  able to convince the other person that

  retaliation will be unreasonably large

  again I don't want to say these things

  out loud Brady why do I say them into

  the microphone but it's just you it may

  here when I was a teacher I would just

  see it like I had the interesting

  experience of teaching at mixed schools

  with both boys and girls teaching at

  girl only schools and teaching at boy

  only schools like it was really

  interesting as an adult

  to see this like from a different

  perspective and it's like oh there's a

  couple of lessons that I learned there

  like lesson number one is high school is

  even more awful like viewing it from the

  perspective as an adult than it was as a

  kid but it's like oh okay I can see that

  none of the boys make it through school

  without being subjected to some kind of

  physical violence and none of the girls

  make it through school without being

  subjected to some kind of psychological

  violence from each other it's like it's

  just so obvious

  I like that violence is not the answer

  or the solution one I feel like that was

  just a like a really really great answer

  to this question and I'll be sure to cut

  or dramatically cut down this section

  don't let me leave it up Brady don't let

  me leave it up we're gonna tear the

  world apart I don't mean to hello hello

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  skills they can use to make their lives

  better a thing has happened which we all

  know we have been waiting for it to

  happen a bad thing that was inevitable

  which is we have had now the first death

  as a result of a self-driving car as in

  hitting a pedestrian because people have

  died in their own cars already there

  have been a bunch of these like leading

  up incidences I think some of which

  we've even talked about on the show in

  the past where like someone is in a car

  and they're not paying attention or like

  there's accidents but this is one where

  it was

  uber testing a like fully autonomous

  self-driving car and there was someone

  behind the wheel who was just like

  keeping an eye on the equipment and a

  pedestrian walking a bicycle across the

  street got hit by the uber and died

  this to me is like the first like

  clearest example of someone has died

  from a self-driving car that was being

  autonomous and it's a car that is

  designed to be autonomous in the way

  that we're all thinking about as opposed

  to the malfunction of a system which is

  much more like an assistive driving

  system or like a lane maintaining system

  yeah what do you think about this as a

  moment in time or as a news story that

  has occurred it's a significant sort of

  moment like in terms of being a

  milestone I've seen footage of the

  accident mm-hm and I've seen what a lot

  of people wrote about the accident

  and like to look at it without knowing

  all the facts like it does seem like

  this person was crossing the road in a

  way that wasn't like being super super

  cautious like they did seem to be

  crossing the road in a way that looked

  dangerous but we're also told these

  self-driving cars can see everything off

  to the sides and know what's going on

  and predict these things and so all the

  people who are saying well of course no

  one could have avoided that no human

  could have avoided it how do we expect a

  self-driving car to avoid it well I will

  hold self-driving cars to a higher

  standard but you can only hold them to

  so high standard if someone wants to die

  by jumping in love this person did but

  if someone wants to die by jumping in

  front of a car they they can still do it

  with a self-driving car so I think we

  have to realize people are still gonna

  die at the hands of self-driving cars I

  think this was just a a milestone that

  was always gonna happen

  it'll slow things down it does make me

  wonder if when the first person died

  from an actual car like you know back in

  the olden days whether or not cars being

  on the road was stopped for like six

  months while people rethought the

  situation like was it the same back then

  when the first pedestrian got hit by

  some five miles an hour

  automobile did everyone go no we can't

  have these things on the road and go up

  in arms well there was no social media

  on which to share these stories

  who knows how information was spread

  back in those days of yore nobody nobody

  knows I think it's interesting because

  this happened a little while ago and I


  when the first thing that could be even

  classified as a kind of accident with

  any self-driving occurred which i think

  was something like a tesla system a

  couple years ago on the highway had an

  accident that became like the first

  story about this I thought it was

  interesting to see that that blew over

  relatively quickly and I feel like this

  story as well at least from the little

  bit I've been keeping an eye on it seems

  like it's blowing its way through the

  news cycle pretty quickly yeah I don't

  know if this is actually going to have

  any significant effect on the

  development of self-driving cars you can

  find the video online that shows the

  camera in front of the car and I agree

  that it's a case where no human driver

  could have possibly avoided that

  accident it's at nighttime the woman

  walking the bicycle is walking across a

  highway where there's not a pedestrian

  intersection and by the time she appears

  in the headlights

  the accident is inevitable like there's

  no way even if the car slammed on the

  brakes immediately there's no way that

  you could possibly do it but I feel like

  I don't need self-driving cars to be

  better than humans to be on the road I

  feel like they just need to be

  equivalent to humans that is my my point

  of like where can we start putting

  self-driving cars on the road no I need

  to be better ok why do they need to be

  better and how much better because when

  they need to better cuz we're so bad at

  driving like L live was unacceptable

  basically but they don't need to be

  infallible they need to be more

  impressive than humans and how could

  they not be because we're such bad

  drivers they are already better so I

  think this debates already over yeah I

  did see someone on Twitter make a joke

  or something like a self-driving car has

  killed one person today and people

  driving cars will kill 3,000 people

  today right which is like Oh God it's an

  unfair comparison in many ways but I

  think it really does make a point of

  humans are terrible drivers my feeling

  there was like I'm happy with

  equivalency because I think the benefits

  that you get from the self-driving car

  then make that mental calculus of is

  this better it makes it clearly better

  even if the self-driving cars are only

  at human level and I feel like it's

  inevitable that they'll obviously keep


  over time but you're right that it is a

  case where the story about the

  self-driving cars is like oh they have

  lidar which looks in all directions and

  can see everything it does raise the

  human expectation that like oh this car

  should always be able to see all

  pedestrians in all situations I also

  wanted to mention the story because

  there's a thing that has been on my mind

  for a while with self-driving cars which

  I find myself wondering or maybe I

  should say reevaluating my position on

  how fast this is actually going to occur

  because when I put out that humans need

  not apply video a few years ago it felt

  like things were moving very quickly in

  the world of self-driving technology and

  most people were not aware of it and now

  that people know self-driving cars are a

  thing and that they exist and people are

  sort of waiting for self-driving cars it

  feels like there has been just very very

  slow progress in this field and I wonder

  like is this a technology that is going

  through some kind of s-curve where there

  was no progress made for a long time and

  then like the year 2000 s things start

  to speed up and accelerates and then we

  hit like 2015 and it looks like oh man

  it's gonna be here any day and then all

  of a sudden it starts to really level

  off like the rate at which we're making

  progress in this area and I do wonder if

  it is the case where it's a

  technological problem where the last 10

  or 15 percent of the problem turns out

  to be you know 85% of the actual work

  that getting a car - not quite human

  level is much much simpler than getting

  it to human level like getting it to

  that last 10% but I am aware that I feel

  like past me expected there to be more

  progress in self-driving cars by now

  then there actually are and I feel like

  we've only seen the smallest scale tests

  of these things so you think this last

  15 10 % that we might be going through

  at the moment is purely going to be a

  technological hurdle we haven't started

  running into the social and political

  side of things you think it's so

  technology now it's funny I didn't

  mention it because that is just not a

  thing that's even on my radar I really

  just don't think that that is going to

  be any kind of significant barrier right

  I still think it is such a technological

  advantage if we can get it there that

  there's no way that the places that say

  oh we're gonna wait on self-driving cars

  I feel like that is such a self slowdown

  that very few places will do that like

  it would be like banning cellphones

  because we're not quite sure how

  addictive they are yet it's like well

  okay good luck with that

  but the rest of the world is gonna

  totally leave you behind

  and I think that yeah when we do get the

  self-driving cars it'll be the same

  thing that if some states or some

  country say mmm we're gonna hold off on

  this for a little while it's going to be

  just such a tremendous economic

  advantage that they won't be able to do

  so oh yeah

  I don't know I wonder if it's just gonna

  take a lot longer than I expected I hope

  it doesn't but I'm a little worried that

  it might well I'm finding every time I

  think it's gonna take forever at speeds

  up and every time I think it's gonna be

  tomorrow it slows down so I've given up

  all together I have this feeling almost

  like as soon as we publish this episode

  again it's going to be like oh and

  self-driving cars are here in three

  weeks they're on sale right you can

  pre-order them now I read an article in

  the paper this morning that really

  disappointed me about self-driving cars

  they hmm they're talking about building

  into the interface for self-driving cars

  things to keep people's attention

  whether it's like you know games of

  tetris or things like that so that

  people will stay alert so they can take

  over the car in an emergency that's not

  what I want my self-driving car to be I

  want to be in the back reading the paper

  or working on my laptop I don't want to

  have to be ready to take over in an

  emergency that's an excellent point and

  I think there is a way where we are

  actually in a little bit of a dangerous

  like local minimum right now with

  self-driving technology because like my

  parents bought a new car that has a lot

  of Drive assistance stuff in it so we

  can do things similar there too like

  what Tesla's will do where you can tell

  it to stay in a lane and it will

  maintain its position within that Lane

  on a highway even if it goes around the

  corner or it will be able to like you

  should if you're trying to minimize the

  amount of traffic like it'll keep an

  equal distance between the

  in front of it and behind it on the

  highway and it will do some limited

  accident avoidance stuff and it's very

  interesting to drive that and play

  around with that but I really do think

  it does put humans in the worst

  situation where the car is good enough

  on the highway that you feel like you

  don't need to pay any attention at all

  which must dramatically raise the

  possibility of an accident like I would

  love to see what the numbers are for

  what is the accident rate per 100,000

  miles when Lane maintenance is engaged

  on a highway and I wouldn't be the least

  bit surprised if like minor traffic

  accidents go up because the person feels

  like I don't have to really pay

  attention I can be doing something else

  like and I noticed that behavior in

  myself when I was driving that car it's

  like oh I'm on the highway I feel much

  safer looking at my phone in a way that

  if I was driving a car without it I feel

  like the phone doesn't exist for me if

  I'm driving a car without any assistance

  stuff and I found myself like oh maybe I

  can just look at that text message and

  see what it was about or I want to

  change what podcast I'm listening to I

  can flip over and do like a fiddly app

  switch on my phone right now because I

  the car's got it on the highway so I

  wouldn't be surprised if cars with that

  stuff are a little bit worse than cars

  without it that's like we need to push

  past here to get to exactly what you're

  talking about like I can sit in the back

  with a laptop and not have to care at

  all but if if you need to have Tetris on

  the dashboard to keep a person mentally

  engaged I think that's almost worse than

  not having that technology at all there

  was a plane crash caused by a pilot

  basically saying these things can land

  themselves I'll prove it and didn't look

  while landing and then crash the plane

  and killed a bunch of people pilot snow

  dares in the cockpit okay no we don't

  want that that's no good okay I've been

  going through the listener emails you

  know what people are doing what people

  have to say I know you want to have the

  people feel like you're listening to

  them you're looking through their

  feedback always listening that's a

  little much oh no no I knew when they

  want to be listened to and sometimes not


  but go message for Brady at gmail the

  number four is where these things should

  go and I will have a look from time to

  time including an email from Ryan which

  was so interesting I sent him an email

  back asking for some more details and

  boy did he provide them he wrote a very

  lengthy reply thank you very much Ryan

  but the main reason he caught my

  attention was he has gotten himself a

  tattoo that I thought I should share

  with you ah he already had tattoos and

  this is like he's kind of added this as

  you'll see I think these tattoos are

  sort of to reflect his interests sorry I

  accidentally just sent them to my wife

  replied with oh my god then we send them

  to you I thought why is grey replying

  with oh my god and not just saying it

  out loud I've decided that we should do

  this podcast via texting Brady there we

  go now hopefully you've got them too oh

  my god we have a nail and gear tattoo

  that is connected to Oh God

  okay USB symbol at the other end and

  that's a representation of a certain

  kind of chemical connection right the

  hexagon with the three lines yeah I mean

  that card if I paint like a benzene ring

  but it can't be that cuz it's got a

  whole bunch of other stuff I don't know

  what that is but yes so three symbols

  connected to each other the nail and

  gear the benzene ring and the USB symbol

  it's like a chemical compound that we

  don't know what it is a USB symbol

  coming off and most recently he's added

  quite a bold nail and gear to his inner

  arm it looks very fresh that nail and

  cure yeah that picture you're looking at

  was very soon after it was done he says

  I really love the podcast I'm a huge fan

  of you and gray the H o podcast got me

  through some tough times and I want my

  tattoos to be a sort of time capsule of

  what was important to me at each stage

  in my life

  it took about half an hour to have done

  my friends like the tattoo although some

  of them got a bit confused when they

  asked me what the nailing gear was and I

  went on a five-minute tangent on the

  podcast about plane crashes and flags

  so this is a thing Brady you send me

  these I get nervous with the tattoos

  there is definitely a way in which I

  obviously think about tattoos in a

  different way than people who get

  tattoos think about tattoos I think that

  way too

  yeah yeah and even that comment from

  Ryan sums up what I've heard from a lot

  of people with tattoos where they want

  them as markers of a point in life and I

  can't think about tattoos that way I am

  tattoo las' as I'm sure will be a

  surprise to no one in the world it'll be

  a surprise to Ryan cuz he says in his

  longer version of the email that he

  feels like he's on the same wavelength

  as you not about tattoos they may be

  just about other things I feel like

  there's a lot of pressure all of a

  sudden right because when someone puts a

  tattoo on their body and they say oh I

  love the show right now what happens if

  you decide in the future that you're not

  such fans of us but nothing's ever gonna

  change the fact he was a fan for I know

  I know this is exactly it like this is

  what I try to understand is this idea of

  it is a marker of a time and so the

  future is not affecting the thing like

  tattoos I feel like are the opposite of

  my mental framework because people who

  get tattoos it does seem to be much more

  passed focus like it's a marker of a

  thing that happened and of course I feel

  like I want nothing to do with the past

  it doesn't exist anymore I have no

  interest in it it is gone

  and it is only about the future so when

  I look at tattoos I can't not always

  mentally frame them from the perspective

  of what will future me think about this

  tattoo which then always leads me to the

  conclusion of well I don't have any idea

  what that guy's going to think about

  this and then like well I can't make

  decisions for that guy in this way so

  I'm like I'm not going to get a tattoo

  but when I've spoken to people who have

  tattoos and I try to explain my thinking

  about them they look at me like I'm


  and I clearly don't understand

  so yeah I mean it can go wrong I just

  sent you a tattoo that was doing the

  rounds quite recently that someone got a

  few days before all the news stories

  broke about Kevin Spacey and he got a

  tattoo of Kevin Spacey on his arm and

  then like you know all that stuff hit

  the fan it's a bit like what does that

  mean now that's the problem there's a

  reason that most countries also decide

  that they are only going to put dead

  people on their money is to avoid this

  sort of problem if you don't want to put

  a living person on your money and then

  that living person does something that

  you as a country don't like they start

  spilling the necessary lies of

  civilization and you're like oh no we

  just put them on the $2 bill I don't

  think Frank Underwood is a president

  he'd want to put on your American money

  anyway so I think we were gonna always

  gonna be safe on that one well Ryan's

  happy with her he thinks and looks good

  and I think it looks good it does look

  good it does look good and we appreciate

  it and we will try to keep the support

  cast that is worthy of your tattoo no

  sorry I shouldn't say that that's what

  you don't mean to say yes because all

  right because look we're not gonna be

  beholden to Ryan that's not what's going

  to happen right and we make no promises

  about the future quality of this show


  Brady feels happy about it I feel

  slightly uncomfortable about it but I am

  glad that you are glad that's what

  matters you got to make decisions for

  you you don't make decisions for me oh

  so I had another photo from a viewer a

  kind of what you do while listening to

  hello internet moment that really

  tickled me before I Audrey that's just

  that's terrible she's getting worse

  great she wants to be on the podcast but

  he is on the podcast so here's one from

  Eden I am a student studying ecology I'm

  currently working on research about

  differences in animal community

  structure that result from external

  factors around streams one of the things

  this involves is collecting fish and

  measuring 24 different parts of the

  fish's body which is amazing to me

  because I didn't know fish had 24 parts

  of their body I tend to listen to

  podcasts while doing this as it is

  tedious work hello internet is of course

  the world's greatest podcast trademark

  because I like to listen to you and gray

  discuss those pesky flag flag ripples

  while I work I've attached

  lightly morbid proof of my claim keep up

  the work so here's the picture the fish


  eden has sent grouse I feel like I can

  smell all of those fish on that

  measuring tray through this photograph

  that has a very fishy photograph nicely

  arranged in a pattern we have some dead

  fish spelling out a chai and some tiny

  little fish around a border making the H

  I love go all on a medical examining

  tray I love that I love that there is a

  little tiny little baby sad anyone's

  make up the little dots of the border

  and the big fish make the lettuce I was

  originally going to say I don't believe

  this photograph because I don't see the

  mandatory podcast logo in the image and

  then it took me a second to resolve what

  I was actually looking at it like oh

  right the fish are the logo I don't know

  what kind of fish they are but they're

  freaky looking their eyes are scary I

  think that's how things look when

  they're dead Brady you know they passed

  on to the next realm and their eyes are

  all cloudy I've seen dead fish in the

  fish market and their eyes were as cold

  and dead as those ones I'm very happy

  that people listen to the show I'm happy

  that it gets them through tedious things

  in their life and I'm happy that

  somewhere in the world someone arranged

  a bunch of fish in a laboratory to spill

  out the HR logo sentences you'd never

  thought you'd say Brady when you bring

  stuff to me especially when you bring

  stuff from listeners I never know what's

  going to happen and I always feel

  slightly apprehensive no sigh well yeah

  I'm something big because there is a

  plague that is spreading through the

  world Brady and that plagues name is

  bitmoji yeah bit mochi yep and I know

  you know what bitmoji are huh

  because you created one as well recently

  hey I've had mine for a while I just

  never send it to you yeah as you know

  better yeah I think that's why bitmoji

  it's a company that's obviously decided

  the regular emoji not enough and so what

  they allow you to do is you can create

  little avatar of yourself and then this

  app will allow you to place that avatar

  in a bazillion situations so it was like

  you're creating a custom mochi for

  everything that's possible Under the Sun

  would you say that's a fair description

  of what the bitmoji are it's kind of

  fair the only thing that's not fair

  about it and I think this is a problem

  with the name maybe is it's not like a

  replacement for emojis to me it's just a

  different toy it's just a different fun

  things yeah they're using the the Apple

  sticker method they're not really emoji

  like bitmoji is a good name but it there

  are custom stickers but I think that

  when people use bitmoji they often start

  to displace the regular emoji so what

  you could do so people can better

  understand if grey said let's meet at 4

  o'clock and maybe I would send him an

  emoji of just a thumbs up instead I

  could send him this customized a little

  Brady that looks just like me riding a

  horse saying yes let's do it or

  something like that right these things

  are awful they're terrible I would love

  to say one of you I'm gonna design one

  to look like you just to see if I can do


  do not Brady I am it no you know I won't

  put it out there because it'll look so

  much like II that that would be unfair

  for spoilers but I'm gonna make one just

  as my own little project great have you

  tried to make one look like you no of

  course I haven't tried to make one look

  like me I mean look here's this thing

  these bitmoji they're just like a

  nightmare from an episode of Black

  Mirror these are so close to the little

  avatars in 15 million merits which is

  still my favorite black mirror episode I

  swear to God when people send them to me

  they make me sad they really do like I

  was on a thread recently with a bunch of

  people and it's like oh this is supposed

  to be like a happy event and everybody

  is expressing their emotions through the

  bitmoji maybe there's something wrong

  with me but I feel like it sucks all of

  the genuine emotion out of the world

  like even emojis regular emojis do this

  to some acquitted out like there's a way

  that they kind of suck out emotion in

  your expression

  the bitmoji is like more and more people

  are using them and because they're

  customizable for every situation you see

  them all the time and I'd like they make

  me sad and seeing people use them to

  express thoughts a lot it's like I hate

  them I hate them so much

  and they're creepy they're so creepy and

  I had to endure this longest hour of my

  life when my wife finally got sucked up

  in the bitmoji thing and she was

  creating her own bitmoji avatar she's

  good at though she's good at it

  she kept asking me does this one look

  more like me whenever she would show me

  one it's like that doesn't look like you

  that looks like an uncanny valley

  nightmare version of you the thing I

  don't get as well is that like almost

  all the women I know they're bitmoji

  look exactly the same whereas the men I

  know like that kind of looks like them

  and I don't know why that is

  I can't figure out why it is but like I

  know three or four women who use bitmoji

  all look the same it could be any of

  them my wasn't happy with hers and I

  said what do you think of mine she's

  like yes yours looks just like you like

  angrily she said has more options or

  something but I don't know why this has

  happened but it feels like it has

  happened I'll tell you that bitmoji app

  is not short on options though my wife

  was doing this on the iPad so she could

  have like the full palette of everything

  that was possible

  I couldn't believe like the enormous

  number of options to be able to maintain

  different noises and oh 19 we would be

  blessed with but 19 noses to go through

  right there were hundreds of noses she's

  like is this one more like me or is this

  one more than me like I don't like any

  of them they all make me uncomfortable

  it's all securely in the uncanny valley

  please never send this to me ever it

  will make me sad I don't like it but

  they just keep spreading and people keep

  using them I want them to go away but

  they won't it's too much like it's too

  far I feel like the constraint of but

  like 200 regular emojis is almost good

  for people it's like it's too adaptable

  and then people use it for everything

  and it it makes me die a little inside

  every time I see one

  says the man who portrays himself

  publicly and videos with an animated

  stick figure and face and doing key

  things yeah in my youtube videos which

  are produced like I'm not when we text

  Brady I don't quickly in Inkscape whip

  together and exactly correct CGP grey to

  be a response to everything that you do

  know it's is totally different don't

  even try to compare it like those things

  are the same and also I don't think the

  stick figure has like the creepy creepy

  Dead Eye uncanny valley nests of these

  bitmoji 's don't you agree with me

  aren't they unsettling in the way that

  they look no I don't agree with you they

  don't unsettle me go to bitmoji comm and

  look upon the nightmare that stares back

  at you from the top of that page I'm

  gonna make a CGP grey one I tell you why

  I could see it to be a green one you

  actually physically cannot stop me it's

  impossible I can't believe your wife

  didn't make one of you and said looks

  like you because she respected my

  desires and she knows never to send me

  the bit mode I don't even like seeing

  her using the bitmoji talking with other

  people I just like I don't want to see

  them they're creepy and they're weird

  and my wife respects my desires unlike

  my podcast co-host he was probably right

  now giggling on his phone making a

  bitmoji of me I'm looking at the front

  page of the bitmoji website and there's

  a one that looks a bit like me maybe

  these are random I have no idea which

  one you think looks like you that really

  had someone the winking guy is that the

  one who you think looks like you to the

  right the far right

  no it doesn't look a bit like you and if

  it did look like you it would only look

  like you in a nightmare world where

  we're all trapped and emotionally

  separated from each other riding on

  bicycles all day long for pretend points

  that's the way it would look like you

  and that one on the left is the one that

  looks like all the people I know who use

  it generic brown hair go bitmoji thumbs

  down they're terrifying hello Internet

  if you are someone who bills by the hour

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  billable hours for your business let's

  go to a less controversial subject that

  won't upset you as much as bitmoji grade

  let's talk about not cease Brady this is

  an interesting new story that's been

  doing the rounds this caught your eye

  did no it did catch my eye I feel like

  bitmoji not see pugs things going on

  with Facebook things going on with

  YouTube I'm at a low point with my

  thoughts about people and the internet

  and what the internet does to people and

  vice versa it's all a terrible mess

  there has been a sort of conclusion to a

  story which to me is a terrifying story

  let me try to summarize it is a story

  about a Nazi pug as in a little dog hmm

  this guy up in Scotland count Deng Cola

  is his online name I don't know what his

  actual name is because count Acula is

  way easier to remember he made a video

  for youtube where he trained his

  girlfriend's pug to be excited and do a

  little Nazi salutes upon hearing

  particular phrases particular phrases

  you would expect Nazis to say so he put

  together this video and he sets it up as

  a joke like it's yeah there is this

  little bit of a story that people always

  say when they upload videos to YouTube

  with like oh I only expected a few of my

  friends to see a thing and then like it

  went viral and I had no idea that it

  would I'm not entirely sure that I

  believed that because that's like a

  standard story that everybody says like

  I kind of think that the guy did expect

  it was gonna be a bit of a viral video

  but he sets it up in the beginning that

  like he is playing a joke on his

  girlfriend who the pug belongs to yeah

  that the pug is super cute and his

  girlfriend is always talking about the

  pug and loves the pug so much that like

  she's on vacation or something and while

  she's gone he's gonna train the dog

  right on like zig Heil that's going to

  put up its little paw in a Nazi salute

  which you can almost say the dark humor

  of car he like that is this dog's the

  apple of her eye and he turns into this

  leg yeah it's pretty twisted but you sit

  there is that twisted brand of humor

  that exists yes there is a choice of

  brand of humor that exists and there's

  this weird thing where everybody feels

  like they need to like distance

  themselves a little bit from it like

  when I saw this video like it's funny

  like it's a funny joke and people have

  to pretend like it's not funny but guess

  what like part of humor is surprise and

  unexpected juxtapositions of things

  right and so like he films a shot where

  it's like pretending like the dog is

  watching a Nazi rally on TV and like

  that's a funny shot because of course

  like the pug doesn't know anything about

  what's going on like he's just setting

  up a frame yeah these are jokes and he

  sets it up as a joke but what has

  happened in the UK is that

  the UK has less freedom of speech laws

  than the United States does and there

  are more caveats and this guy counting

  Kela has been convicted guilty of I

  forget exactly what it is but it's like

  spreading obscene messages over the

  Internet he's been found guilty as of

  the time of recording the sentencing

  hasn't occurred the sentencing is going

  to happen in a couple of weeks but he is

  facing prison time over a viral video

  where he trains a dog to raise its paw

  on particular commands and I think this

  is just terrifying I agree it's

  terrifying and I wonder him what'd he

  say about it just to be clear though

  it's not the fact that dog raises poor

  that's got him in trouble it's like the

  phrase he's repeating isn't it yeah okay

  but so can I say the phrase are you

  afraid to say the phrase Brady I think

  he should not have said use that phrase

  so one of the phrases that he uses in

  the video is he says hi future gray here

  stepping in for a moment I wouldn't

  normally do this but it is a special

  occasion since we recorded this episode

  I looked into more of the specifics

  around this law and this ruling and haha

  turns out that the judge did know it was

  a joke but the way the obscenity law is

  written in the UK allows judges to

  ignore that factor it seems to allow

  judges to ignore all context around the

  literal words that are spoken in

  isolation from everything else which

  seems to make it impossible to talk

  about the bad ruling of an obscenity

  case without also exposing yourself to

  the very same obscenity law that you're

  talking about which makes this just a

  rather breathtaking catch-22 / Brazil

  level law so anyway here we are

  future gray is going back and cutting

  off past gray and thus this very

  conversation becomes an example of what

  we end up talking about later in the

  conversation in the video as he says

  and the Pug sits up and looks interested

  like he's obviously been giving the dog

  treats for that phrase right clearly

  this to me is the thing where there's

  something I find kind of awful in the

  world where everybody's like oh well I

  don't agree with the sentiment of that

  phrase it's like of course nobody agrees

  with the sentiment of that phrase who

  agrees with that nobody everybody feels

  like of course we want to distance

  ourselves from that but the actual

  question here is should you be able to

  put someone in prison for these actions

  prison where we physically remove

  someone from society for what they have

  done I think this is terrible I think

  this is really one of the worst things

  in UK law I have come across in the

  years that I have lived here because

  this is like such an incredible chilling

  effect that it comes down to like a

  judge thought that this is obscene and

  so finds him guilty of communicating

  obscenely over the Internet man if

  that's the case there are plenty of

  other UK youtubers who should like be in

  prison over similar kinds of things and

  everyone on Retta yeah like next time

  Mel Brooks lands in the UK straight to

  prison he's going to go because he made

  the producers an entire movie which is

  is nothing but Nazi jokes right all the

  way through I don't know I find this

  genuinely terrifying because it opens

  the door to this idea that if the legal

  system doesn't like what you say it can

  put you in prison and what does it mean

  to say that something's obscene this

  video where a dude is training a dog to

  do the zig heil like I don't think we

  should put people in prison for that

  whether or not you think it's a funny

  joke whether or not you think the guy

  should have done it whether or not we

  think like oh well I don't agree with

  the phrase that he uses in like a

  schoolmarm kind of way

  like I don't think that that is

  justification to put someone in prison

  like it has such an incredible chilling

  effect on speech I don't know I find it

  just deeply deeply upsetting that this

  has occurred as always with these things

  like you find yourself like ok I have to

  defend the guy who like made a video

  about a Nazi pug but it's never the

  thing like it's the system that it

  allows like it is a precedent of putting

  people in prison for saying things that

  is really dangerous I really don't like

  it and it makes me deeply uncomfortable

  with the way the laws are in the UK I

  agree with you you know whether you

  thought it was funny or not I liked the

  video was kind of funny

  yeah but you know some people have

  problems with that really

  confrontational humor like comedians

  like Frankie Boyle and people like that

  use and some people really enjoy it I

  think it's ridiculous I don't think he's

  committed a crime and it's an injustice

  there are two caveats though there are

  two things that I do feel more strongly

  about that I think we can be a bit lacks

  about on the internet that I do think

  should be punished one is if you are

  harassing an individual hmm and I think

  a lot of that happens on the Internet

  where people like say things and harass

  individuals and people that you know

  it's free speech I can say whatever I

  want on on the Internet and then I think

  if you're targeting a person I think

  that's unfair and I think we need to

  start getting stricter about that

  because I don't like seeing people being

  harassed like that and the other thing

  is if he had been inciting people with

  what he was doing if he was trying to

  incite you know anti-semitism or

  something with the video then I think

  maybe it needs to be looked at but he

  clearly wasn't doing that so this this

  does not apply to this person but I

  think if you were making you know

  Holocaust jokes with the intent of

  inciting racial hatred then that can

  start having like real-world

  repercussions and people can start

  getting hurt and when that happens I

  think you know we need to protect people

  in society I agree with you there but I

  I feel just extraordinarily cautious


  this idea individuals I'll agree like if

  you are harassing an individual online

  there's a place where there are some

  kind of repercussions there

  although again in our society when you

  talk about people who are public figures

  all of that just goes out the window and

  we're like oh no then it's fine right

  yeah you know like if a person's in

  public like that screw that like they

  don't deserve any protections which like

  maybe make sense and maybe doesn't but

  even then like starts to blur the

  boundaries of this like even that is not

  as crystal clear and I also agree with

  direct incitement to violence but I also

  find like in conversations with people

  that there's a thing that happens where

  people do a kind of mind-reading where

  they assume intentions of when people

  are saying things and it's like hmm my

  feeling is like a direct incitement to

  violence is a direct incitement to

  violence like it is someone calling like

  for an attack on a specific person or a

  specific group like I think what this

  guy got in trouble for is exactly that

  blurry boundary what you're saying where

  it's like oh when someone's making jokes

  and it's jokes that are to incite

  violence like that's kind of clearly

  what the judge was thinking in this case

  is like oh yeah this guy's making jokes

  but he's making jokes and this is like

  promoting hatred in the UK you can't pin

  that on me of course because I think

  that judgment is absolutely ridiculous

  oh no yeah no I agree with you I know

  that in the case of Kant Dacula

  that the judge decided it wasn't like a

  joke and how anyone could watch that and

  not think that was a joke is completely

  beyond me I wasn't saying that you were

  saying that I'm simply saying that so

  you read the section of the law that he

  gets convicted under and it's one of

  these things where it's like oh it's

  illegal to communicate like obscene

  language across the internet what does

  that mean and that's why I think like

  the standard has to be incredibly high

  like a person has made a statement that

  any child could agree is like a direct

  threat against a particular person and

  it's not like oh well this person is

  contributing to like a general overall

  feeling in society this way like through