Roderick on the Line

Ep. 283: "I Never Follow the Voice"



  hello hi John hi Merlin how's it going



  um late because I got I got to head

  strong I thought I could run an errand

  oh yeah late 9 1 1 where's the late

  crown yeah I'm all right 9 1 1 joke in

  your town yeah

  what was your errand oh it's not very

  interesting go to the bread store for

  some bread no no no no I went to the the

  ATM oh hey Jim sometimes you couldn't

  need some cash around the house tonight

  I don't like not having cash yeah these

  millenniums they love everything on a

  card I know they do it all on their

  thermostat uh it needs to stop John I

  need to stop the card thing needs to we

  just need you to pump the brakes

  hmm but anyway sorry obvious I don't

  usually talk about the show on the show

  but I ran a little late and so now I

  need to walk over here dry company oh

  you're drinking the brand name seltzer

  taste for Canada dry and it's become a

  monkey on my back yeah cuz all those

  years ago also you would got this just

  like the Kroger okay so we should

  probably just do a whole episode about

  water at some point cuz I it's been a

  journey for me I have some issues yeah

  well what okay so when I first got into

  sparkling water slash seltzer water

  slash soda water it's a regional thing I


  I used to get it in like Safeway 12

  packs and ran out of business still a

  point when I would drive a car around

  like an animal and then I I discovered

  that you could get Safeway encases yep

  yep and then I discovered that the

  Safeway delivery people would

  theoretically deliver things to your

  house for a nominal fee

  it's like a back alley dealers oh this

  is this is the seltzer hack for show so

  I got the wrong keyboard and all my

  document open holy shit so what I did

  was I discovered I'd like you to put a

  fork they're in the wrong keyboard I

  have to revisit that put it in the

  document wrong the wrong keyboard for

  old times sake I should use the old keep

  I'm a regular keyboard okay no no I

  don't make noise people email us um so

  what I discovered was a seltzer hack

  which was you could contact the Safeway

  company of Pleasanton California and you

  could say hey icebox chocolate cake and

  18 cases of Sultan do you have to talk

  to them like Randy Newman character the

  guy who goes into the corner store he's

  like oh I'm so thirsty today I wonder

  what I should have this morning in my

  case I'm like yeah you know why don't

  you give me some of those give me some

  of those all right a french fries okay

  flank steak is good I got 18 cases of

  seltzer and they will deliver it to your

  oh they hate it they hate it cuz this is

  back in the day so this is you know lots

  this lots happened in the years since

  since this this went down but this is

  when Safeway was trying to do their own

  offering they still do this but they're

  getting their bike kicked by all the

  other companies

  but a man and a Safeway truck would come

  to your house and man he was fuckin

  hating life cuz Lee idea well you know

  normally you're like oh you know could I

  get a loaf of bread and a stick of

  butter and they come out and they give

  you a nice little bag to milk stick of

  butter tick chip the cap is just staples

  then what they were not expecting was

  the life hack guy asking for 18 cases of

  seltzer and then ask you please stack

  them up in this area of my garage please

  and thank you it's not pallet I mean how

  many is 18 cases I don't know if I've

  seen that in a long time it's more than

  the guy with the little back brace

  really feels like bring it into your

  house yeah and so then now I still

  continue this to this day because I

  fight this I fight the system the system

  does not want me to get heavy objects

  you know they want me to get the dainty

  bag sure now and pay the fee we're happy

  to home deliver toilet paper to you well

  they'll bring you a few but you know

  let's not abuse the system right it's

  like I'm like the guy with that

  all-you-can-eat salad bar wearing waders

  and like just stuffing mashed potatoes

  into my pants and so but since sometimes

  you got to be strategic about it and you

  got it you do an orbit and you say I

  want 18 18 cases of seltzer and they

  show up they go sorry brah they didn't

  have any seltzer and you're like really

  you didn't have any seltzer and so I

  have to start doing competitive ordering

  where I might do two to three orders in

  a day hitting the minimum until I got

  you follow me here so let's say let's

  say the minimum is $30.00 you pay attend

  or fee or whatever I didn't have the

  first time I do it a second time

  I keep scheduling I keep scheduling I

  still do that to this day I am prepared

  at this point to open a back channel

  with the Canada Dry company to say look

  I treat me like a restaurant like I am

  probably the single largest consumer of

  this let's bypass the middleman a little

  premium but like you know across your

  palm but I want some fucking Canada Dry

  original sparkling seltzer water 12

  fluid ounces I want that in large large

  amounts at my house there's got to be a

  distribution center somewhere in the Bay

  Area yeah where the you know where the

  big truck pulls up and it's like when

  Axel Foley is is hijacking or intercept

  the hijacked truck full of cigarettes at

  the beginning yes diehard or whatever

  yeah the one it's him the other guy it's

  the one he buys the carton of cigarettes

  yeah Axel Foley there's gotta be some

  deal you can make some like you know

  stack of money gets exchanged and a guy

  opens up the back of a semi-trailer and

  right full of Canada drive well okay so

  so this is an interesting twist on the

  decongestant problem okay cuz you think

  about the glory days and you know about

  my glory days I know I got a spreadsheet

  about ephedra I still hope yeah I rode

  that wave with you for a little brother

  so you could go time was you could go

  get yourself a dollar nine malt liquor

  and you get yourself a bottle and I

  think it was a hundred twenty-five

  milligram ephedrine the ephedra I think

  it was $2.99 for a hundred mmm overtime

  that went up eventually they made it

  illegal and today if you want to be able

  to breathe and I'm the JIT wanna breathe

  I want that claret indeed

  I gotta go with me both right so I have

  to go to the pharmacist window where for

  some reason they're a little higher up

  than me not a fan okay they're looking

  down on me when I see your driver's

  license for your 30 tablets of clarity I

  was like what's the jam up on this is

  this so people won't make you know

  Walter White meth and they're like yeah

  we can't you can't buy if you buy this

  more than twice in a month federal

  agents will come to your house right Wow

  now here's the thing I kind of get that

  it's sort of I was telling me we have

  traveled recently and I was telling my

  daughter about TSA and you know one time

  somebody had a kind of like a bomb in

  their shoes so now we take our shoes off

  and one time somebody had some liquid

  and that's why we can't have liquids

  right for liquid yeah yeah yeah but I

  mean like how much meth can you really

  make with 60 claritin DS not very much

  at all I mean so many of the decisions

  we make now as people are based on that

  the absolute worst okay thing that a

  single like lowest common denominator

  person will do right in to none in the

  nature can do can write this down dumb

  pretty good numbness thermometer


  but in that case in that case here's the

  thing now I'm in convenience I'm not

  trying to make meth sure I'd love to

  abuse stimulants I'd be super into it

  but I can't so I've made my peace now I

  get my claritin once a month because I

  don't want federal agents of my house I

  don't want to you know have a problem

  but here's the thing ninety nine point

  how many nines of people out there just

  won't fucking claret and so they can


  yeah in the same way most people you

  think about buying Canada dry original

  sparkling seltzer water you're buying

  that for a party would you buy you're

  gonna buy one to another bottle of that

  it's it's like it's like Vernors


  or what caffeine free diet coke it's

  something for the weirdos that want to

  mix a drink yeah but you know what it is

  I bet you it's some of these flat

  earthers are using bulk canada dry to

  power their low orbit spacecraft huh we

  laughed we laughed at that guy but he

  got it off the ground

  sure he did and do you know it was steam

  powered right yeah so I think so I think

  yeah the steam had a steam power steam

  punk rocket yeah so how far is it before

  we realize that oh no it's just it's

  like frizzy water-powered that's the

  real way that's what Elon Musk has been

  working on this whole time that's why

  they don't want to give you a pallet of

  flavorless pop oh you think it's big

  space I think it's big space they're

  putting the kibosh on your on your

  garage so what's he building in their

  situation hmm get to the fireworks

  factory yeah and so now here's the

  situation now is I do have a gig economy

  service that I use to have these things

  delivered to my house but here's the

  thing now Canada Dry has made the move

  of now putting them they don't they

  don't have cases a Canada Dry can't buy

  kids can it dry time was a man a grown

  man grown-ass man in his early 50s could

  buy a gentleman's 12-pack of Canada Oh

  guess what they're doing now now they're

  getting cute and now they're they have

  eight packs

  John John they sell you in a cardboard

  eight pack and the little dispenser

  doesn't even you heard me struggling did

  you hear me struggling over there what

  they're trying to get was that from an

  eight pack that's from an eight pack I'm

  stuck with eight packs now like an

  animal I've never heard of an eight pack

  eight pack mm-hmm

  mm-hmm and I don't get from Safeway

  anymore because my gig economy service

  they have the the charge a premium for

  going to Safeway fuck Safeway in the eye

  to begin with I'm a Molly stones man all

  right I don't wanna make it creepy I

  don't even know what that is what's that

  pussy when I go to in Seattle the what's

  your kind of nice grocery store Oh we'll

  see how is just built on kind of nice

  grocery stores now but are you talking

  about the QFC probably the place that

  has flowers and we bought some steaks


  yeah QFC probably they're owned by

  somebody now I don't know if you sure

  they're not independent anymore but then

  we have the you know we've got the coop

  and we've got the other co-op market you

  know the like how many fancy olives do

  you want store only get olive barge on

  you can we've got more olives than the

  other place stuff it with blue cheese so

  now I'm in a situation where I got a

  monkey on my back and I got them down

  right on my butt so now I've got room or

  a Rebecca De Mornay is the actress right

  right okay it's a Monet yeah Mon I got a

  Monet up close it looks like a bargain

  but the so now we're stuck with this

  with the lobster cuz also I like though

  here's the problem I'm a connoisseur

  John I like the flavor I like the

  mouthfeel of Canada Dry it's better than

  the generics yeah it has a slightly

  sweet aspect to it maybe because of

  where they source their water it's sweet

  water it's sweet well it's not sweet

  it's not like that fucking vitamin water

  bullshit like just have a coke

  like you know in this case but you're

  thinking like the booth has it has a

  cool sweet round quality to it utterly

  lacking in the other generics or let's

  be honest the other premium products how

  well speaking of which I have a good

  friend who is addicted well let me roll

  that back Wow I have I live in a culture

  now of people who are addicted to the

  Lacroix brand of a mildly flavored I

  don't understand how that has become

  such a lifestyle

  I understand how that is that people

  have taken up the mantle of Lacroix and

  something it's like vaping it's like

  just don't understand like how that

  became such a thing I have a gal pal who

  is a motorcycle adventure person and her

  online handle is hookers and popcorn

  that's her tag that's her her brand her

  what would you call it not her avatar

  I guess handle let's call it hands on

  handle and under the handle hookers and

  popcorn she does all kinds of motorcycle

  he stunts and lifestyle events she goes

  into adventures and does adventury

  things she jumps around mm-hmm

  sometimes we'll ride a motorcycle

  standing on it seem very safe it's not

  she does unsafe things that's a that's

  another that's unsafe photos on on the

  Instagram she does unsafe things puts

  photos up of them and then it's she's

  you know she's not saying that she's a

  role model you know if you go jump on

  your motorcycle in sparkly underwear and

  riding standing up over a cliff like

  that's your problem the fact that she

  has a trained eagle that grabbed her

  right at the last minute and flew her

  off to a Mesa where she had a ayahuasca

  ceremony does not mean that that's gonna

  happen to you

  and she's a member of a culture of

  people who are lifestyle purveyors she

  said she has a lifestyle brand I think


  I mean she resists it or maybe resisted

  it put it that way no no no but but you

  know you she often is in a group of

  people and they're all like whoa check

  me and they're all doing like amazing

  things they're all like stunt

  motorcyclists and skateboarders you know

  the group they're basically all

  skateboarders let's be honest but

  skateboarders of cars but and it's

  amazing believe me they truly do amazing

  things it's just that like there's

  always a drone flying around somebody's

  jumping their motorcycle this is a

  there's like that one guy looks like a

  frog on YouTube and he's real popular

  and he he takes his Canon camera out and

  he jumps canyons and stuff and yeah

  enjoy life and you are a la

  you're alive exactly yeah they all have

  like like a million followers and I

  don't know what happens people give them

  stuff okay and you know me I've been

  living on Reds vitamin C and cocaine for

  many years and and I never you know I

  don't turn my nose up at a swag bag you

  know I think coffee

  that's how can my coffee but like

  nobody's giving me a motorcycle mm-hmm

  and I'm not saying anybody's given them

  motorcycles either yeah but uh oh and

  also the we got to talk about the Gibson

  Company later oh shit dog I saw that and

  thought wrong keyboard worst thing with

  a common denominator

  yeah and Gibson was yo they got was

  buddy you saw this cut you saw that

  coming miles off I did have been talking

  about the factory thing you were

  disappointed yes yes it's on the list I

  got it but she drinks 80 Lacroix a day


  I think so she'll often send a

  photograph of the floor bed of her you

  know the foot wells of her truck as she

  drives across America from one adventure

  to the next in a never-ending

  constellation of string of pearls of

  outrageous adventures and the footwell

  of her truck will be like like ankle

  deep in

  Lucroy cans and I don't think you're

  throwing those Lacroix cans down there

  half full that would be a mess I think

  she's finishing them off she's not doing

  what we used to do and I don't see

  people do this very often anymore where

  you finish a can of something and you

  crush it yeah as part of finishing it

  did you ever do that I do it now because

  I'm a super recycler and I need every

  square inch every cubic inch and you

  have that problem I remember the last

  time I spent any you know stayed

  multiple nights at your home there was

  the constant problem of where is the can

  of sparkling water I was most recently

  drinking oh yeah yeah there's like

  there's cans on top of everything and

  it's like oh shit and they're all

  half-full when I did my afternoon

  cleanup yesterday I tried to clean up in

  the afternoon get ready for the dinner

  hour get everything prepped

  and I go in and I clean up any cans that

  around I had I had three 3/4 full cans

  that's that's how you know you got a

  problem cuz the fizz is done at that

  point but I feel like she has been

  trying to get Lacroix to start backing

  up the Lacroix truck

  but I think they don't I don't think

  they do it because I feel like there's

  probably within the Lacroix cult uh-huh

  I don't know if they need it know

  everybody's drinking that stuff they

  don't need any advertising they don't

  need anybody jumping motorcycles

  drinking a la croix she's making some of

  these photos John or part naked yeah

  yeah I mean not everybody in the

  lifestyle brand circuit she finds

  herself naked in a lot of unusual


  she's busy having adventures a lot of

  public John be aware of this I just got

  a pan sparked off in this one she's not

  a she's not a role model she's a she

  never said that no she's doing her own

  thing in her own in her own time

  she's making stuff up as she goes but

  she's you know she truly does do some

  she lays on the ground a lot hairball

  stuff that's one of her that's one of

  her things she does the like I'm

  facedown dead on the ground some

  somewhere okay it's it's a kids over

  time you know everybody's got a little

  bit and when you follow people's bits

  yeah over time you're like yeah she was

  like she laid down in front of a

  farmhouse here and did a dead dead girl

  thing she seems pretty good at this

  yeah she's good she has she's good she's

  good she's good people but but but you

  know though it's the Lacroix really that

  is the manure think she'd be like reppin

  all these heavy brands like sports gear

  and you know all that the people that

  are doing like adventure sports stuff it

  seems like they're always going holding

  up their K twos and being like I did it

  you know mountain dew or whatever you

  know they're like you know or you'd find

  some kind of bespoke upstart brand that

  needs a motorcycle lady you know that

  could really benefit from being part of

  that that branding

  I'm just saying Lacroix is pretty

  well-established yeah but but she's not

  doing it to get I don't think she's

  she's just like addicted to Lacroix the

  point of this story signs I don't well

  no it's that what's directly to your

  point I don't understand to any of you

  how you get addicted to fizzy water

  it's got no caffeine in it it's got no

  sugar in it it's got no what is it doing

  to you like I'll have it I'll have a

  soda water when I'm with you uh-huh but

  like I don't think your haven't you're

  having a can of Safeway Seltzer in the

  interview in my yard that one time they

  get a coffee you got a coffee maybe at a

  coffee out of salts or something like

  that I have a theory I think I think

  part of it is and I got into this with

  the when I was doing the SodaStream

  family of products is if you're somebody

  who enjoys sparkling water you I think

  increasingly you're chasing the dragon

  you like that burn you you like that

  super strong fizz it doesn't hurt but I

  mean think about you and hydrogen

  peroxide another monkey you got on my

  back don't you like that feeling you

  swish it around it burns a little bit

  you got canker sore you I really got in

  there yeah yeah I like that burn I like

  any kind of burn any anything you put on

  something and it hurts see yeah see

  that's it's the healing it do you want

  that with grapefruit you know what my

  lady likes the Pomplamoose that's her

  favorite of the lowboys did you did you

  know that the medication that I'm taking

  it is contraindicated to eat grapefruit

  oh the devil you say yeah something I

  don't know what and this is the miracles

  of the world this is chemistry somehow

  if you eat grapefruit

  it makes the medicine not work is it is

  it contraindicated by other hand fruit

  and citrus some special something

  special about fruit yeah and the thing

  is I didn't even know that medical

  people and pharmacologists were even

  paying that close of it

  attention to stuff like how would they

  have even figured that out I feel like

  it's the thing where somebody was like

  grapefruit fiend and they said my

  medicine doesn't work and they they put

  it together but like are they just

  testing it how did they even test that

  I'm on the WebMD page for interactions

  for the fruit grapefruit and there's a

  lot of interactions between grapefruit

  and other things

  Oh sister you're not gonna you wouldn't

  believe how many there are

  Buse buspar coreg propyl Sid and now for

  now I think that's one of the stay awake


  dextromethorphan oh that's we have a

  tussin you can't have dextromethorphan

  the body breaks down

  dextromethorphan to get rid of a

  grapefruit might decrease how quickly

  the body breaks down dextromethorphan

  you're drinking juice might increase the

  effects and side effects of it yeah

  oh so it's it's an antagonist an agonist

  yeah it's and as a multiplier fer for

  cough syrup some things it forced

  multiplies some things that antagonizes

  interesting but you know don't mess

  around with Leroy Brown yeah as you know

  a Pomplamoose lover myself because I

  like anything that burns I like anything

  that hurts

  uh-huh and major oh there's major in

  Russia's I'm not sending this link this

  is crazy John you know but I but I don't

  I've never gotten on the the personal

  fizzy water train and I did get I did

  get one of those soda streams and I did

  make my own fizzy water for a long time

  before I just like everybody that buys a

  thing like that just sort of got bored

  of it but I but it's not a thing like I

  don't do that thing that you or jenni

  like it does with the would like I need

  this in profusion how many do you drink

  an entire 12 pack a day

  uh-huh and that's a real screwed up now

  with the eight packs I don't even have a

  way of like easily knowing how many I've

  had now you can't get a 12 pack there

  they don't sell anymore they've redone

  it they've repackaged it oh yeah no but

  here's this is the indication that

  you're a user is that I'm never out


  I'm and I'm always I'm always stocked up

  I'm saying

  so I mean IIIi think it's it's one of

  those things like chain-smoking where

  you're never not doing the thing unless

  there's a reason or you know admonition

  from doing the thing like I've always

  got one of these I got it's like it's

  like the chains of the ghost of

  Christmas past this episode of Roderick

  on the line is brought to you by


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  the great shows Dixie and Rubicon myself

  with this ever sticks I got you know for

  long time I would get the cans and then

  on haul I should do the Soda Stream and

  of course then you know III think I

  became in our circle somewhat well known

  ya for doing the SodaStream that's part

  of your brain know that it matters but

  like no I would make it I was really

  into it and I got really into it I got

  extra bottles and then pretty soon I was

  getting into a situation where I was

  remodeled because he wanted a stockpile

  he got a stockpile I'm not gonna be out

  of it but then of course we got a kid

  and you can't do that at night it wakes

  up the whole household and then III I

  passed the Rubicon II and sticks which

  is that at this point is like okay this

  isn't really practical there's too many

  like bottles that have to be washed and

  there's the Rubicon Amitha Cobo them

  yeah go both ways

  mm-hmm a pill yeah anyway so that's how

  I got back into the cans and then

  eventually in the fullness of time I

  discovered the Canada Drive brand and I

  started now you know there's a problem

  so now I'm not they're trying to buy

  like the Mickey Mouse LSD like I had to

  have a special kind of fizzy

  it's just you know I don't have places

  to talk about this so this is an

  opportunity to the ATM in order to pay

  your dealer anyway what's the worst

  thing I type this really don't talk

  about Gibson was the wrong keyboard or

  the worst thing to do with a common

  denominator well let me ask you first of

  all I this is the only I'm always amazed

  as you know yeah by computer people and

  by their their ups and downs their ins

  and outs their foibles their you know

  their common little like keychains that

  they hand to one another it must seem

  very odd to you and you have for a long

  time you were my number one computer guy

  the one that was that would explain all

  the computers to me and when I would say

  what the what the world you would say oh

  well that's just this or this is just

  that oh thank you I like to think of it

  John is I think I I feel this is true

  for myself with technology for a long

  time and I know it's true with other

  people who instruct me which is like I

  just I don't need to know everything

  about this at a high level let me know

  if this is something I need to know

  about and if it is or something I just

  need to not worry about or think about

  right and if it is something I might

  want to be interested in can you just

  give me some bullets to just sort of a

  quaint need to kind of be my personal

  Wikipedia for letting me know like if

  I'm in the ballpark for getting near

  understanding of this thing so I can say

  to you like oh you don't need to worry

  about that yeah you don't need to sign

  up for that service that's silly don't

  do that you did that a lot for me you

  would say that's not a thing that you

  care about and I would say butBut and

  you'd say no yeah don't worry don't

  worry don't worry if that ever becomes a

  thing that you need to know about you'll

  know about it and I was like great

  awesome but there are still things that

  amaze me all the time I had a question

  about for instance last night it seemed

  like when I got home I

  on the internet to look at things as you

  do and it seemed like everyone that I

  knew and everyone in the world well

  everyone was watching Jesus Christ

  Superstar on the television yes and my

  question was not like why because

  obviously Jesus Christ Superstar is

  amazing and and and this was a live

  production of it live streaming on TV

  yeah they did they did a live production

  of it

  for the East Coast and the west coast so

  they did it twice but oh oh really in

  both times it was a different

  performance I think so typically when

  NBC does these live things that they

  tend to do it twice and judging by the

  way Judah's kind of screwed up the

  lyrics for know he did fine but it was a

  loud room I think he lost the cadence a

  little bit but that guy was good where

  was the performance taking place I want

  to say the Los Angeles area so here's my

  question I do not remember in the last

  five days everybody saying we're all

  gonna watch Jesus Christ Superstar on TV

  right everybody came out of nowhere it

  came out of nowhere and everyone seemed

  to be watching it I hadn't heard about

  it and also I think if I had heard about

  it like the premise wouldn't have

  necessarily been super enticing like Oh

  NBC is gonna do a live Jesus Christ

  Superstar I would have been like you

  know what you wouldn't like clear your

  schedule for that if you know about two

  weeks ahead yeah like there's a lot of

  stuff going on that you can watch on TV

  and and yet it seemed like everybody

  just agreed offline or in a secret news

  group oh we're all gonna watch this

  thing and we're all gonna like live

  comment on it and I understand when it's

  the Oscars or something yeah that

  everybody's on everybody's watching the

  Oscars it's just understood that you're

  gonna do it

  that was an example of a cultural moment

  where where I was like okay do I follow

  400 people who just all are really into

  musical theater is that that's not

  unlikely and it's not impossible

  like what was like where did this come

  from and when it came where it came from

  is it more about an interesting a live

  event is it about the the theatre part

  is it about you're curious about this

  production like what how did it become

  such a phenom yeah do you have any

  insight into that

  for me yeah I mean I think just because

  of my own way in with it was I had not

  heard about this at all yeah at all and

  then mmm I saw a couple people on

  political Twitter making jokes about

  Jesus Christ Superstar and referencing

  mr. shows Jeepers Creepers and and I

  thought that's kind of weird everybody's

  mentioning that and then it didn't seem

  like it was until like I think Saturday

  night Sunday morning that I was even

  aware that this was gonna be a thing I

  don't know I don't know where I mean I

  just there's a testament to this is the

  fact that when I did flip it on at 7:58

  last night there was a show where Steve

  Harvey talks to talented children - oh I

  didn't know existed because I don't know

  I don't know most TV exists not cuz I'm

  a snob but just cuz that's the nature of

  TV today let's find out about it and I

  am a fan of I mean I guess I'm a fan of

  the musical I'm really a super fan of a

  handful of the songs yeah and my

  daughter is getting more into what you

  could generally call musical theater I

  mean she likes some musicals a lot and

  especially some kind of like especially

  stage II things a lot I thought you know

  this could be fun she doesn't know if

  Jesus I had to give her a lot of like

  backstory on what's happening with Judas

  Jesus backstory yeah basically said

  Judas Judas in this is good apart from

  also being a black guy Judas and this is

  kind of like Aaron Burr and Hamilton

  he's the ring he sort of down to earth

  he's worried about being practical yeah

  but no that's the time I found out about

  it we watched it I let her watch a

  little bit of it she got to see Caiaphas

  in the shed to go to bed I know a lot

  about Steve Harvey mm-hmm

  because I follow do you know Vic burger

  is well he makes the funny videos right

  he makes the funny videos yeah Joey

  knows about Kenan Thompson's

  impersonation of him from Sarah alive

  that's the guy that the guy you like I'm

  Sara alive is impersonated he Victor gur

  makes little videos oh my gosh so funny

  his Jim Baker it is oh my god they're

  they're awful

  but his Steve Harvey videos are are also

  he hasn't made one in a while but

  they're very fun and so I have a so I

  became aware of Steve Harvey and then

  you know did a little background

  research on him to know what the hell I

  was looking at the Jim Baker food

  buckets that's that is a very very funny

  assist ivar he's like he's kind of a

  throwback maybe a little bit along the

  lines of Chris Hardwick kind of a

  throwback to a kind of character you

  don't see as much anymore actually the

  kind of character I always thought you

  should aspire to be which is a TV

  personality you got people who just show

  up and do stuff in different places and

  sometimes they have a regular show or

  another regular show but they're just

  like a fixture of TV to a mental says

  disparagingly but to administer your

  mind you go oh look that Steve Harvey

  he's doing another thing yeah sort of

  like what sort of like I don't say Paul

  Lin but sort of like along the lines of

  somebody you would see on Mike Douglas

  you know who might host you know battle

  the network stars or something

  I mean that that world doesn't exist

  anymore and I and that's kind of the

  thing that confuses me about this thing

  that you watched last night because it

  feels like a throwback to a time when

  everybody sat down to watch the day

  after no you're gonna watch the one

  you're gonna watch the show where

  there's not that much event viewing

  anymore and in any age of so lots of

  people like idiots like me will there

  are a handful of shows like Game of

  Thrones that I will watch the second

  that it comes on but you can't really

  talk about it because the spoilers and

  stuff but like a part if you're not in

  the world of live sports you don't have

  that much community event viewing

  anymore right community event viewing

  and well you know I don't even have a TV

  oh of course I don't either

  I thought you have TV I don't know about

  it but so you were saying earlier that

  you were like oh

  and I have the wrong keyboard and and

  and so in my mind all of a sudden not

  only did did my mind generate a world in

  which you have like a shelf with between

  nine and fifteen keyboards and you pull

  them down like like people from West

  Virginia deploy rifles yeah oh man I

  need my or just like oh I need my Gibson

  SG for this song you're like oh this is

  my router come the line keyboard doing a

  personal Harold you're like bringing all

  the topics together and and and so I was

  like wow but then I thought then

  immediately I left - oh shit do I not

  have enough keyboards oh no I was just

  like Oh Merlin didn't tell me I needed

  multiple keyboards and now you send me a

  picture and what it seems like you have

  is an analog clickety clack keyboard and

  then you have that great little keyboard

  that you told me to buy a long time ago

  the little solar-powered keyboard and I

  still have mine and not only do I have

  one but I got another one for another

  key or another computer and I think

  they're just great little keyboards so

  you were saying you were gonna be on the

  clackety-clack one but look at all the

  gears you see all the dander on these

  yeah yeah yeah I posted a picture of my

  keyboard one time and I got like 45

  disgusting anymore I got a box cutter

  you terrorist scotch tape you like

  scotch brand tape expensive earphones I

  bet I bet though five dollar bill I

  can't believe you still use cash what is

  that is that a moleskin pair why don't

  you if it's a solar keyboard why don't

  you clean off the solar part monkey

  solar part thanks thanks thanks buddy I

  got it I got a tweet yesterday that was

  and this is how you know that there it's

  a crazy tweet because although it's only

  at they only at me they're speaking as

  though they are talking about me to a

  group of people

  check the tweet before that one oh I see

  where Professor Roderick yeah she I

  think this was just out of the blue or

  no it was in reply cuz I sent out some I

  sent out some tweets I mean you get

  you're getting lots of lots of responses

  to your nice tweets that was a nice

  tweet storm you did well I was very I'm

  pretty shy about about promoting myself

  and yeah and about promoting the podcast

  but you did it well you did it well and

  you were real straight up about it you

  didn't go hey for the afternoon crowd in

  case you missed it titillating yeah you

  were straight up you said hey I make

  these podcasts and I'm happy I'm proud

  of these and if you're not listening to

  them I like you to give them a try and I

  thought you're a real gentleman about it

  well and I got a lot of nice nice nice

  replies a lot of a lot of people that

  that you know that obviously like

  Roderick on the line was their

  introduction and and their and they

  still love the show and they wanted to

  say how much that they did and and you

  know I love that stuff although that's

  not when I was president nixon said you

  get a silent majority you get I mean the

  truth is most people who listen dear to

  a podcast like tend to like the podcast

  and why would they ever say anything

  about it

  it's nice when people do that I'm happy

  and humbled when people do that it makes

  me very happy

  yeah me too me too absolutely but then

  but then and and and as you're just

  describing like when I put them out

  there I thought you're cuz every time

  you're reading the replies you're like

  well how long before I get how long

  before I get a turkey here how long

  before I get that before I met the wonka

  factory and the goose that's laying the

  golden eggs one of them goes and goes

  down the shithole you know what I mean I

  know and there was one that was just

  like some asshole remark and I went and

  looked at their bio and their Twitter

  bio was like I'm an asshole I was like

  okay you're easy to block yeah but this

  couple years ago I couldn't you know it

  said no the one that's the one that was

  like I'm an asshole was just you know

  like what do you call three white guys

  sitting around with nothing to talk

  about a podcast it's like

  that's good stuff that's good you should

  never take it on the road but no this

  guy was like I used to love Roderick on

  the line I listen to it all the time it

  was you know might be a number one show

  or whatever but I listen to friendly

  fire my podcast where I talk about war

  movies and John was so mean to Saving

  Private Ryan hmm

  that I can't listen to any of the shows

  anymore not only know that sounds like a

  straight-up medical situation very very

  difficult to diagnose what happened is

  that what happened is Johnson did make a

  movie and now you can't listen to his

  stuff well it wasn't just the night that

  I said I do like Saving Private Ryan I

  might have like oversold how mad I guess

  we just complement things all the time

  movies if you don't like wow this bag

  check mix check party mix not really

  good I like every single thing in it I

  can't even I don't even know which one

  to praise most they're all so good I can

  imagine why anybody would love these

  more than all of their foods I could not

  praise anyone more than another you get

  oh you know what you forgot you forgot

  this other check mix that I make these

  never heard of you forgot you forgot I

  love you for God guy oh there was a guy

  that replied and said oh yeah podcasts

  were great you should listen to mine

  another guy like a pretty excellent guy

  was like that's kind of not how you do

  it you don't do that you don't like

  reply to somebody's really nice tweet

  stream about what they're making with a

  link to your own thing and then the guy

  applied to that guy oh boy and said it's

  on he said you don't know me man I'm

  living in my car right now and still I'm

  managing to put podcasts out every week


  he was like well you know like being

  poor and being an asshole are not

  mutually exclusive Oh doctor what are


  I just always we talked about this

  before I've talked about this everywhere

  I'm sorry it's just how I feel I think

  one must be very careful about feeling a

  level of familiarity with a stranger -

  to where your first time that you

  address them you address them as though

  they know you as well as you feel you

  know them and I almost did it last night

  somebody like that I like and follow on

  political Twitter who has no idea who I

  am had a hot take on how Godspell is

  better than Jesus Christ Superstar which

  of course is a garbage opinion and I was

  I was about to make a joke about it and

  then I thought wait a minute if somebody

  if somebody did that to me I'd go like

  this / like you know basically the sound

  of running into something in an old

  video game try the key again and like

  that my first interaction with Matthew

  Gertz might have been ma I'm gonna let

  you have this one because it's Easter

  Matthew Gertz and of course you would

  see that I close the window I'm gonna be

  my first interaction with this person

  that I like and admire is to be an

  asshole and I was like don't be that guy

  ya see I'm not even saying you have to

  go and like roll out of carpet and bring

  a fizzy drink and say oh I love

  everything you do but like don't don't

  assume like a level of familiarity that

  thought that's not there somebody is

  there with you well look what happened

  with that guy decade that somebody

  turned around did that to him and he got

  all touchy about it oh he was mad he was

  mad in fact he ended up texting and

  tweeting me that he blocked the other

  dude oh and I was like hey buddy you and

  I are not the friends in this scenario

  like you and I are not the ones that are

  conspiring against the other guy who is

  moving myself from this narrow but I you

  know I still do it where I see somebody

  I admire on Twitter that I think is

  doing something funny and I try to chime

  in with some funny thing like law


  and I'm just like oh and then I kind of

  you know my shoulders sag and I'm like

  you know and then I would go through a

  little minute or two where I'm like just

  don't even bother my friend Elon Gale

  right the the producer of The Bachelor

  the airplane guy because he's the

  airplane he says he's whatever Janet and

  c7c try his troublemaker he's a

  troublemaker and he probably gets 20,000

  replies to every tweet he does oh yeah

  like let me let me redo your joke in a

  not as funny way or explain it to you

  yeah yep

  but he's incredibly good about making

  sure that if if I like jump in and go

  like a little leg up he always gives me

  a prop he oh he always like he always

  does a touch right he just like reaches

  out and and even if it's just like yeah


  he he's super duper duper considerate

  about the about like there's my friend

  and I don't know how he does it I don't

  know how he's scanning through all this

  stuff and maybe he has some setting

  where he's just like people I know are

  the only ones I want to see oh it's good

  about just like hello and gives that

  little touch that's nice I'm not good at

  it people are like you know trying to

  jump in all the time and I'm just like

  yeah that's funny that's funny but I

  don't like give them a bunch of I'm not

  like throwing a game at everybody yeah

  but boy it's unseemly it is but but but

  you know if I'm like jumping in on some

  some thread of friends and I'm like yeah

  you guys and it's just like you know

  just to hear that tumbleweed never try

  never try just go just go die aren't you

  being a try-hard

  this is a term I learned last week are

  you being a trihard mmm see now I need

  you a good thing to do are you are you

  here for this is this everything right

  now I'm here

  everybody's telling you what they're

  here for

  Oh tell me though tell me that is

  everything or or or sometimes there are

  some kinds of things that are too real

  what do these things mean oh I don't

  know like these Easter eggs were too

  real Twitter told me too real no what

  you real like oh man who to to real I'm

  here for this I'm here for this I'm here

  for this where do you put the accent I'm

  here I'm here for this

  oh man you uh you uh untangled a lot of

  wire there well you know the thing that

  was going around a few years ago which

  was I'm done Oh


  people were like all right I'm done and

  it wasn't friendly it wasn't like I'm

  done it was like I'm done and they were

  so gallantly Sam over this yeah it was

  like a mic drop thing where they have

  some exchange with somebody and then

  they just be like I'm done mm-hm as

  though like they were some you know some

  King in a like a 50s teleplay who was

  like off with his head or something or

  like vaudeville they're giving you the

  hook oh the hook right but but it wasn't

  funny or friendly and I remember so I

  when I was running for City Council

  I was sitting in the stranger offices

  with their election Control Board with

  my opponents the three of us were

  sitting in or four of us I'm sorry we're

  sitting around a big table with all of

  the stranger editorial writers and they

  were peppering us with hard question

  hats it said press on them they

  basically did and there was an on the

  election Control Board there were like

  three people who were older in the my

  age area one of them was Dan Savage

  who's Lou older than me one of them was

  Tim Keck the publisher who's a little

  older than me but they were like put

  olds and then there were the Youngs who

  were all in their mid 20s who were like

  the radical stranger writers who believe

  that private property should be

  abolished and that we don't need police

  and they were really one of them in

  particular who ended up getting fired

  from the stranger for being a dickhole

  and like a not not just personality wise

  but he was fired because he did

  unscrupulous journalistic things that's

  not good you know what that no and I

  never liked it means that he's a tool

  and a bad writer but he definitely felt

  like he wanted the other guy to win my

  opponent to win he could use it was just

  written all over him and he was asking

  peppering me with questions about stuff

  that my opponent was an expert on so one

  of my opponents was a housing like a

  housing advocate and he was directing

  the the the writer was directing a

  stream of increasingly hostile questions

  to me like well what's your housing plan

  and essentially my answer was my housing

  plan is once I'm elected I'm gonna hire

  this guy to my right to be my housing

  guy what are you talking about what's my

  housing plan I'm not gonna go

  head-to-head with a with my opponent

  who's got it for ten years has been

  developing a housing plan mm-hmm like

  I'm running for City Council not for

  housing guy and at one point he said he

  leaned back in his chair and he was like

  I've done really yeah that's the thing

  that he said yeah and I felt what when

  you go back when you run for office like

  that it's a very concentrated set of

  events where apparently if I'm any

  indication the rest of your life you

  will be replaying those moments ongoing

  oh you know what I should have said

  because it's a lot of those things all

  at once and you know you build up a

  lifetime's a lifetime worth of what I

  should have said like what every time

  I'm driving necessary tasks ali-a yeah

  if I drive for very long I will my mind

  will start to go to some event in a

  union hall somewhere where I should have

  told somebody where they could put it

  and what I should have said to that guy

  was exactly what I mean you're done

  gonna done like that

  but you're done yeah buddy now you don't

  want to become that guy where you're

  famous for that interview well you know

  I'd rather be famous for that interview

  that not famous for that interview

  that's a what Scott said you know I

  could have I would have happily burned

  that place down because the stranger was

  supposed to they were supposed to be my

  friends right I've known I've been part

  of the stranger I've written for the

  stranger they're all they're all pals

  you know and yet they had this every

  three years they hire a bunch of new

  young writers and the new young writers

  weren't friends of mine they didn't know

  anything about me and it was like oh I

  expected some leftist Oldboy Network

  treatment where I was like the stranger

  has been you know like the stranger is a

  radical newspaper I'm a radical we've

  always been on the same page but now

  there are a bunch of 24 year olds that

  think I'm a that think I'm some crusty

  ten years ago I in the spirit of your

  personal Harold I feel like there's a

  sort of a threat that runs through some

  of this stuff that something is

  something that I try to be aware of

  because I think it's important I mean

  one problem when we communicate with

  others and especially today in the

  weirdly mediated way that we have access

  to strangers not the titular stranger

  but people we don't know I I feel like

  there's a certain kind of I'm done

  tone to things I certainly do it I'm

  sure we all do it we all have limited

  attention in patience and vulnerability

  that we're willing to have destroyed but

  I think I think one thing you don't have

  to be cute about this you don't have to

  be like a fakie weirdo about it but like

  when you're interacting with people in

  general I think it's important to try

  and leave room leave air like you don't

  need to settle every mystery immediately

  there should be it doesn't necessarily

  like a flirtation but in interactions

  that you have with people there should

  you unless you have a real unless you're

  like you know

  serving a warrant like generally try and

  leave some air try to leave some room

  for joy for playfulness for the other

  person to have an opportunity to to get

  get their fun in as well but also and I

  want to say this I'm not saying you have

  to have a relationship with everybody

  but like it seems like a lot of

  communication in some ways especially on

  the internet especially in places like

  Twitter comes down to like you're a bad


  you're a bad person and I would never

  want to have a relationship with you and

  even if that relationship is just kind

  of a silent from a distance enjoying

  another person's stuff in your case I

  mean that was probably kind of not cool

  of that person I understand their job is

  to comfort the affor to afflict the

  company and all that kind of stuff but

  like when even in the way you ask

  interview questions of people like give

  people some space to answer in an

  interesting way and if they don't if

  they aren't answering the question you

  could pursue them but like I feel like

  in so many of our interactions we are

  we're trying to create some kind of a

  conversational trap that leaves no room

  for this to go anywhere

  we're basically you're just going mad

  and then it just stops right there and

  like I mean I don't have one specific

  example of this that I can give but like

  I do know that like a certain amount of

  lightness and playfulness and like or

  you know or curiosity is maybe another

  way to put it like don't be afraid to be

  curious and you don't have to be a

  weirdo about it but it's what I when

  you're communicating with people on

  Twitter like think about that like think

  about whether you are preemptively

  shutting down an actual conversation

  that you could have with somebody if it

  is a conversation you want having if

  it's not just mute them and have them go

  away but I don't know I I I don't mean

  to be a concern troll here but I worry

  that that what starts out as something

  we type with our fingers on our phone

  can start to affect the way that we

  think about any interaction and now

  becomes become super annoyed about

  everybody in line at the grocery store

  and we forget that this is water and

  like I don't know I just I'd like to try

  and keep that in mind and if I if I I'm

  genuinely curious about another person I

  want to give them room to take this

  thing where they want to go with it

  rather than feeling like I'm going to

  constrict them or or creep them out by

  giving some kind of decisive punctuation

  mark about this non relationship we have

  I wonder if it is a I wonder if it's a

  thing where like wouldn't when we've

  talked about this quite a bit when we

  were young there were still a lot of

  unsolved mysteries yeah right the leaf

  flu sure talked about this the Bermuda

  Triangle etc or just knowing who the guy

  in that show is the unsolved mysteries

  yeah no sorry

  who was that's not Leonard Nimoy isn't

  yeah but was it John Walsh I don't even

  I wouldn't know John Walsh would be

  walked in right now and handed me a

  cupcake okay but I could google him no

  but you're right I mean like the obvious

  example is like like me sitting there

  last night watching a series of

  unfortunate events and going look I know

  that actress oh it's that actress from

  the Austin Powers movies that I really

  like and of course I'm able to look that

  up instantly and drill straight into

  that episode that just aired a day ago

  and it's already there I already have

  instantly the information about

  something that I want immediately that's

  a trivial example yeah

  Oh John Walsh is exactly who I was

  thinking of he's the host of America's

  Most Wanted and Adam lost his father

  right yeah you had that terrible

  situation with his son that's how his

  one doesn't want to say career but

  that's like he's started off by being an

  advocate for for kids well so that's not

  that's probably not who did unsolved

  mysteries but you're to my pal Gary his

  name's Gary you're saying he's not right

  Gary I got those tweets that is good

  that was funny that was making fun of us

  for not remembering one of our canonical

  characters but but things that were not

  know not easily findable but they not

  even be knowable at all well I'm still a

  great number of places in the world that

  you felt like hadn't been explored right

  islands in the South Pacific that were

  uninhabited it was still plausible that

  Gilligan and the skipper would get into

  a shipwreck on a island that

  could sustain life but that there just

  wasn't anybody living there and it was

  uncharted like there were uncharted

  places who knew behind the Iron Curtain

  who knew it was back they can't prove a

  negative like how do you know Atlantis

  doesn't exist what we have no way of

  knowing we have no way of knowing and

  now we've mapped the entire world we've

  we believe we have overlaid it with a

  grid system enough that we can pretty

  much put our put our pinkie down on

  anything we wanted to see and with

  Wikipedia and everything else we feel

  like we've called it all we've named

  everything and all that's missing from

  Wikipedia is stuff from the olden times

  that we haven't brought forward and put

  on but there's nothing happening now

  that isn't being recorded there's

  nothing you know if you

  nothing you know if you

  when I wanted to go sit and study Google

  Earth we could find Gilligan we could

  find anything we were looking for and

  that's happened in a very brief amount

  of time and so so there's an element to

  the curiosity that we grew up being

  expected to have or it was kind of baked

  in a kind of curiosity about what is in

  the forest even like oh if I go into the

  woods here next to my house cuz I'm a

  little kid I don't know how big the

  woods are and I imagine maybe the woods

  go forever and maybe these will go into

  you dig a hole to China yeah right it's

  gonna Sherwood Forest or whatever and

  now there's a maybe I feel like in the

  world a sense that everything's mapped

  and so there isn't that feeling that oh

  you know maybe no one's ever been in

  this cave maybe no one's ever I mean

  from the time that you're small uh-huh

  Oh what if I'm the first person to ever

  climb this tree yeah yeah yeah and so is

  our relationship to curiosity changings

  so that all these responses that we're

  getting to on the on the internet

  there's not a feeling that anybody else

  has anything to teach you anymore like

  you you already know everything -

  everything's already known it's not a

  question of learning it's a question of

  just opinion like it's not it's not that

  I didn't know that it's that I just

  didn't have an opinion about it yet and

  it's so different from when when we were

  kids where I was just like you know when

  I heard that maybe Led Zeppelin Jimmy

  Page was like I had bought aleister

  crowley's house I was like it is the

  music of Led Zeppelin amazing because

  Jimmy Page talking to the devil and now

  they would even if I was the little

  eight years old

  there'd be like eleven other

  eight-year-olds who are like well

  actually mm-hmm snows know whether I

  don't know what how to teach curiosity

  or how to how to do what you're saying

  like reply to people and say leave some


  like like let it be interesting I

  totally agree and like yeah this is I

  don't mean this to sound sexist sexist

  because I think it's actually true of

  everybody but one of the first things I

  remember hearing in terms of grown-up

  relationship advice that I found to be

  very useful especially given my

  personality this is now this is such a

  cliche a but B it's also it's true of I

  think all sexes in sexes and genders

  which is like when somebody especially

  historically you see like a woman wants

  to talk about something men have a

  tendency to once you solve a problem and

  I feel silly even saying this because

  everybody knows this at this point

  supposedly but like the idea is that

  like somebody comes to you and they want

  to talk about Oh God

  you know Barbara at work has been really

  kind of been a thorn in my side lately

  and like you know she didn't invite me

  to this meeting and I'm not sure if I

  should feel weird about that and like

  men tend to want to like me tend to want

  to jump in and go well you should go

  straight to your boss or you should talk

  to Barbara or you should send an email

  my credit but let me solve this problem

  for you before you're even done with the

  sentence let alone the paragraph where

  really that person maybe maybe wasn't

  looking for a solution that person just

  wanted to talk about something in their

  life that they maybe don't want a

  solution for and maybe the talking and

  like could be sometimes the talking

  about it is the solution but like you

  don't you know and I really really

  struggle with this in life like I don't

  like when people finish my sentences

  like I don't want to finish other

  people's sentences because sometimes

  they just need to ramble a little bit

  I've talked about this I think as a

  component in the relationship between my

  mother and sister my sister comes home

  and is one of these people that wants to

  just talk about the problems that she

  had during the day no she's not doing it

  she's not filing a bug she's not looked

  on so like in an hour

  I need this solved does not want a it

  does not want the problem solved wants

  to I mean basically wants to bitch about


  yes and then at the end be done and my

  mom is someone who wants to solve the

  problem and she's a grown man she is she


  problems yeah she's just like well why

  don't you talk to your manager why oh

  here's that you know here's something

  you could do unplug maybe with a little

  bit of hint of like this is actually not

  that complicated

  absolutely I mean I think there's that

  kind of an important aspect of the like

  why is this a problem well but also the

  flip side of it is that bitching about

  stuff is uncomfortable for certain

  people to listen to like my mom is

  extremely impatient because she doesn't

  want to hear because to her ears it's

  just like belly ain't what why are you

  complacent like either solve the problem

  or get used to it you know get

  accustomed to it and deal with it and

  like stop complaining is my mom's take

  on it and so it's a it's it's a long bin

  when it starts to happen in my house I

  usually pick up the newspaper so just

  slowly edge out of the room like without

  saying it's like I'm behind the

  newspaper I'm reading an article showing

  fuse that has just been to another

  response does she for years it was just

  really frustrating because they had not

  identified this as the dynamic Susan's

  response was just to get more and more

  agitated because she's like well yeah

  like sure I could unplug the

  refrigerator but that's not the point

  right and the point is sometimes what

  you're really saying is yeah I know I

  know the world is that way I don't want

  the world to be that way you know saying

  you know I don't tell me how to change

  the world just listen to me be

  frustrated that the world is this way

  yeah and it and it was and my mom just

  got more and more frustrated to like

  shell if you don't want if you don't

  want my advice why are you coming home I

  can see but I can see and have been on

  both points of view both sides of that

  yeah and I think there is a there is a

  culture of well I don't know I mean like

  for myself personally I try it's not

  even that I try it is not in my nature

  to complain

  there are times when I protest like if I

  go up to the counter at an airline and

  they say you do not get blank I say I

  would like to lodge a protest what do

  you mean I'm not getting an upgrade but

  that's a protest once they say you don't

  get an upgrade or once they say sorry

  we're not going to let you put your

  guitar in the overhead bin because we

  didn't read the memo from the US Senate

  or whatever I don't then sit in the

  chair and complain you know I'm like

  resolved and resolved being a part of it

  is that I feel like I deserve suffering

  but but also like there is no point to

  it because I cannot win now you know and

  my mom is the same way like well you

  know if I have to wear these shoes that

  are made out of fire then I guess I have

  to wear a shoes made out of fire I don't

  like it but what does it serve to

  complain and my sister on yeah on the

  other hand is going you know her way of

  processing the events that happened to

  her is just kind of like putting them

  out there in the form of either

  celebration or lament and but it is

  participatory right my mom does not

  require my sister to to help her process

  her events because she is doing them

  internally and quietly but my sister

  does require my mom she does require a

  listener it wouldn't be sufficient to

  just make a cage and put some socks

  around it and have a and have a bowl of

  food in it so Susan could cling to it

  and yell at day it wouldn't that would

  not work right she needs someone to

  listen and pay and that pay that

  attention somehow and that it feels like

  another example of like the

  introvert/extrovert issue where the

  extrovert is like introverts are

  very very aware of extrovert culture

  introverts know what extrovert world

  looks like because they can't help but

  know yeah it's like it's like not being

  into sports like I'm not into sports but

  boy do I ever have to know about sports


  but extroverts are not aware of

  introvert culture or their needs because

  why would they be all they see are other

  extroverts and introverts just seem like

  people who are standing there waiting

  for them to come talk to them and you

  know it's like it's like when you talk

  to black people about white culture

  they're like look we know all about

  white example is everywhere what a guy

  butts into like three women talking on

  the internet to explain what they must

  understand about feminism yeah man it's

  like Oh what you don't know about men

  and they're like no seriously we know

  that I can't even believe is real which

  was where somebody responded to a woman

  and said you know mansplaining is not

  really a thing great but it's that but

  it's that type of thing you know you

  hear about you hear about this the

  divide as being a thing of like not you

  know like or or or the way you initially

  started to describe it initially it was

  presented as husband and wife was a wife

  the model was that hey husbands you need

  to listen to your wives more but like I

  I only did that as a jumping-off point

  of how I learned about it the truth is

  it goes for everybody do you be aware

  when somebody just wants to think out

  loud a little bit there's a funny

  episode of a very good episode of Parks

  and Rec and I think you're probably not

  a fan a huge fan but we're Chris Chris

  Traeger the play by Rob Lowe like is

  trying to is like his wife Quincy

  Jones's daughter is pregnant and he

  keeps trying to like fix everything and

  and I forget who it was the system you

  know here's your here's a trick go stop

  talking except to periodically say that

  sucks and like that is that is a way

  over simplified shorthand but it's kind

  of true like

  adopt a that sucks attitude that has you

  open to listening to that person rather

  than trying to like explain how they're

  being unhappy wrong yeah that's pretty

  good yeah i'm i am definitely being

  unhappy wrong periodically check in on

  this podcast called i only listen to the

  mountain goats i don't listen to every

  episode but it's a very interesting idea

  it's the guy from oh what show is it he

  does night Vale i think i love that when

  you are trying to remember something you

  put put a little tremolo in it anyway

  and they're going through god what album

  is it all hell west texas but anyway and

  they go through track by track and this

  guy interviews John Darnielle who's a

  very articulate guy I'm not a giant fan

  of music but hear me out you know I I

  know John pretty well nowadays and is a

  very very bright guy extremely bright

  guy but but that's really neat so the

  the show has like a kind of chemistry to

  it that would be impossible for obvious

  reasons on any other show which is like

  he's a very interesting writer who has

  interesting thoughts about life and this

  very good interviewer interviews him and

  they talk about one song on the album

  and then somebody covers it at the end

  yeah yeah I need it on iTunes you can go

  into all the songs like I think large

  and grace did the best ever death metal

  band from Denton like these great songs

  but anyway a recent episode was source

  decay which is a song that I really like

  it's a slightly unusual mountain good

  song for the time but long story short

  the reason I mentioned this is he said

  something you know how it is somebody

  says something that once you hear it you

  could God it's so obvious but I so

  needed to hear that

  and they're talking about the

  composition of the song a little bit of

  a looking into like how he writes a song

  kind of from the inside out where

  sometimes he starts with a little bit of

  a detail like okay this guy this guy

  goes to his old house to pick up the

  mail what are the letters that he sees

  and kind of builds out this story from

  there right and it's very I think a very

  interesting and kind of authentic way to

  write a song which is like telling a

  specific story with these specific

  waypoints rad

  starting with an outline of everything I

  wanted to say in the song right

  probably not the entirely dissimilar

  from how you write I'm guessing but but

  the guy said something so cool because

  name is Joseph he's he was talking to

  him about like well you know but what is

  what is this mean in this song like is

  this Jenny the same Jenny from the other

  song but Jenny in it and I don't

  remember his exact response but he's

  basically saying yeah I don't know I

  mean I don't know I could guess just as

  much as you could guess but here's the

  quote he said most people don't treasure

  the unknown

  most people want all the information I

  never want all the information and I was

  like oh man I shouldn't even tweet about

  this but I'm gonna because I thought

  that was so great I was like you know

  what I'm kind of the same way I love

  whilst I love being able to watch

  Netflix and look up the name of an

  actress in a scene that's no problem at

  all while it's great to me to be three

  seconds away from knowing drugs that

  interact with grapefruit while I'm on a

  podcast all great but I kind of I think

  about when I started this is not a slam

  on Star Wars but like I saw Star Wars

  when it was just Star Wars like a week

  after it came out I saw Star Wars I

  didn't understand what are these

  creatures what is going on I didn't know

  that George Lucas had a name for every

  single piece of equipment in every rock

  in the entire area I had basically two

  viewings of Star Wars the reviews about

  it and then maybe like a Fangoria

  magazine feature but like I didn't know

  I don't have like a DK encyclopedia of

  Star Wars and that was part of the fun I

  wanted to know everything I would just

  consume everything I could find about it

  but there wasn't that much to consume

  especially after the first one you know

  I'm saying it was six or eight months

  into the cycle before I mean they were

  sending out coupons for the action

  figures there were not big books about

  it that were official books anyway I

  trying to put that in front of you

  because I thought John Darnielle saying

  that was really smart I realize I'm the

  same way like I I don't need to know

  that there's an answer to like it you

  know in that song is that Warren Beatty

  like is that David David Branson it's

  like I don't know I don't know if I need

  to know I don't know if my enjoyment of

  that song will change one way or another

  if I know who you're so vain is about

  does it have to be about one of them

  maybe maybe that's a bad example but I

  like the not knowing and I like the fact

  that this is this is a this is a

  snapshot of a little bit of a story and

  like I don't

  if you can even know all the details of

  this especially if the person who wrote


  choose chose to not have a codex or a a

  rubric for being able to delineate what

  everything in the song means and I have

  to tell you that's one reason I love

  your songs I don't know what the fuck

  your songs are all about even when you

  explain them to them to me I don't

  understand though and I really like that

  I I and I want to just toss to you do

  you do you feel that way about do you

  like the not knowing yeah there are

  three three things that I that you're

  inspiring me to think about I want to

  say simultaneously the geographic

  version of this somebody posted

  something the other day that was like

  did you know that Google knows

  everything that you've ever done and

  everything you've ever thought and said

  and I was like oh no you know Google is

  gonna be Google's gonna know all this

  stuff about me and I went I followed the

  link and you know Google does know

  everything I've ever googled but that

  would be very confusing to an algorithm

  because it's like who are the you know

  who are the last five kings of Armenia

  it's like how are you gonna sell me but

  but Google supposedly knows everywhere

  I've been and I went to the thing where

  it said you know Google it basically

  knows everywhere you've been

  and I was kind of excited about it like

  where what what is this map that

  Google's gonna draw of all the places

  I've been like how exciting the truth is

  it's actually kind of disappointing

  you're like oh man Google I thought you

  would know all the places I went well

  and what's what is what was crazy was I

  got there and there was no information

  and then I realized that what I do I do

  Google where things are I googled the

  like is there traffic or whatever I

  Google routes to things but I look at

  the route and then I put my phone away

  I have never followed GPS instructions

  where it's like turn left like I put it

  away I look at it like I used to look at

  paper maps I get a sense of where it's

  telling me to go but I never follows the

  voice the machine and so Google doesn't

  know where I've been

  because I never because I always turn it


  because I still don't want to know all

  the answers like I don't want to get

  there even if I'm late I don't want to

  get there via the computers best

  estimation of the fastest route I want

  to find it that's like that's a big big

  part of how I live in the world I want

  to find it I know it's there

  I know it's over there and I'm here in

  that case you do know that there is an

  answer that it does exist there is no

  Stuckey's somewhere best right I'm going

  to a place right I can I know where

  Spokane generally is I want to get there

  and not just be guided there by a by a

  tour guide you know by a by up I don't

  want to I don't want to ring in my nose

  and somebody yanking on a rope that's

  the geographic version but in response

  to your thing you're the real thing the

  John Danielle thing you know I think my

  greatest regret about the success of my

  band the and by success I mean the level

  of success and one of the things about

  I'm one of the things that complicates

  my relationship with John Darnielle

  personally is that he has and this is

  true of so many I mean so many musicians

  when you really get them down and get a

  few drinks in them and they're sitting

  around a campfire you can't help but say

  if I just had like I don't want to be

  Eddie Van Halen I just want the success

  of John Darnielle the amount and kind of

  success that he had and maybe maybe the

  steadiness the Admiralty admirable

  things about him is like just that he

  seems so steady about he just keeps

  doing the work he does the he does the

  work and you know when you get to know

  him personally he realize like oh it's

  part of his process of coping right to

  do the work like he's he is also

  struggling as we all are with a

  constellation of like contraindications

  of grapefruit and he well his way of

  getting through the year is is making

  music and putting it out and that's true

  of a lot of people I know and I have the

  opposite of fliction or

  some other you know I've ate too much

  grapefruit but you know guys like if you

  I mean I'm sure if you sat down with

  Carl Newman and said how do you how do

  you like your fame he'd say it's great

  I'm very happy here

  but I would you know wouldn't it be nice

  if I had just the you know the fame of

  Jonathan Richmond or well I don't know

  who's anybody's comparison is but I

  believe it was it was you even Bono has

  a boss even Bono has a bond yeah but I

  would love to sit down with somebody who

  wanted to go through my music and talk

  about what things meant because I when I

  was writing it like everything I meant

  something by everything there was no

  there's no filler

  I wasn't like well I need to get to the

  chorus so I'm just gonna say the same

  thing over again yeah I remember first

  reading this I feel like in the John

  chardee poetry book we said something

  like make every line tell yeah and and

  and and I think that's part of why I

  mean when I listen to great pop music

  and I'm and I realized that there are so

  many songs that I really love where the

  course is just like hey na na and I and

  I love that music but like I just I just

  filled the lyrics with meaning and I

  want somebody to care enough and I know

  that there are people that do but I

  didn't have that you know like Darnell

  and his band inspire a kind of cult II

  reverence you can get kind of a lot law

  of large numbers thing where they have

  enough fans that they probably would

  eventually get to meet some super smart

  and engage people that were super fans

  and would want to talk about it yeah and

  and there are those people about the

  long winters it's just that there's not

  an audience for their output right

  there's not like you could do a podcast

  about John darn Yellin there'd be an

  audience for it if there was a podcast

  about the long winters there wouldn't be

  necessarily very big audience for

  listening to those songs digested but

  you know I got a I got a I got an email


  a guy the other day who was like I teach

  literature I teach you know English

  literature in college and I wanted to oh

  and I asked my students to take your

  line from the song which is a seven I

  think where where I say every eyelash is

  a picutre a wire and he was like you

  know and I had to explain to people what

  I just explained to them what tickets

  were because they didn't know what

  pickets were but then we talked about it

  and I was like oh I was just I was

  laying there in my in my little you know

  cuddle cozy bunny suit like oh my god

  someone somewhere is looking at a line

  that I wrote but it meant so much to me

  that that someone would do that and you

  know what has been true the last half a

  dozen years is the people that listen to

  this show and the many attempts that

  people have made to make a codex to make

  a an encyclopaedia of of everything

  we've talked about and all the different

  cross references and stuff you know that

  really like all those attempts even

  though none of them has really succeeded

  and become the definitive one and I

  think there are there are a half a dozen

  orphan projects where yeah yeah there

  are people who have very very kindly

  taken a stab at it for sure

  yeah yeah and it's a lot to just a lot

  to take on that thing is really to me

  that's really useful I mean there's also

  our friends show underscored David Smith

  has done a wonderful thing where he does

  voice recognition not why don't you call

  it but he basically turns the show into

  searchable words so if you want to find

  a bit

  I think stuff like that's great for

  finding where a bit appeared but like

  God please don't study it all too

  carefully well that there's that but

  also like I mean there's the impulse to

  try and find like our witticisms or our

  you know the first time some you know

  somebody said this some of that and and

  like the stories that the big the big

  like stories the capital letter stories

  but you know you and I have travel a lot

  of ground and we you know and we kid and

  then our fans kid back at us and then we

  kid back at them about helping people

  but you know there is license there is a

  trove at least I mean and I don't mean

  like necessarily even a treasure trove

  but just a trove it might just be a

  trove of dirty diapers but but it's a

  troll yeah it's like a trench is a

  treasure on to the trove trove calm

  masks is your big customer hiding in

  your company's email so ask they're

  considering your company's email as a

  trove of qualified leads like on

  somebody's just sitting on the domain

  trove calm wants to find the Glengarry

  leads in your company's email it's

  already there they do not pregnant are

  wanting let's talk about something put

  that culture gap but in terms of like of

  not having the answers you know as much

  time we spend a lot less time solving

  problems than we do describing them and

  a lot less time even describing problems

  than just inhabiting them like a furry

  costume yeah and I think probably a

  portion of our problems aren't even

  aren't even obvious to us we have people

  that seen the show they're like you need

  to take the subject and replace it with

  the object you're gonna need an

  associate degree in your own life to

  even begin

  staying what you don't fucking get about

  what you don't understand about yourself

  but like Darnell is super wise about you

  know about a lot but there but he like

  anybody has blind spots there are

  certain aspects of darn yel that he

  isn't wise about not just as a writer

  you know or maybe principally not as a

  writer then it's the same with me like

  there's a lot of the there was a review

  one time in the Salt Lake paper of

  ultimatum one ultimatum first came out

  and this reviewer really like was mad at

  the song ultimatum in particular and you

  know and gave this kind of excoriating

  reveals why he's dreamy UK manic score

  you any review which was not a negative

  review it was a review that said this is

  a beautiful song and well recorded by a

  very interesting band and I disagree

  with it and I was like go on you know

  like I put a put a big napkin in the

  front of my shirt and tucked myself in

  and I was like tell me more and they had

  listened to it enough to understand the

  viewpoint of it and be mad at the

  viewpoint which meant so much to me

  because it was the rare interview or I'm

  sorry the rare review of a record that

  took that approach you know reviews are

  just like wow this band sounds like that

  band and their third song is a really

  nice jangle pop blah blah blah but very

  few people are like the viewpoint of the

  narrator in this song I find it does not

  like is not life-giving or whatever I

  was just like

  she'll be bore and and what they were

  mad about was that the you know the

  viewpoint of the narrator and ultimatum

  is is your in a way you're kind of your

  cowboy the one that doesn't want to be a

  villager and but also kind of you know

  wants to hang around the village and get

  free drinks and they were and they felt

  like it wasn't hopeful that there was

  that the that the narrator himself

  should try harder oh it was like yeah

  man yeah yeah yeah take a stand take a

  stand against this this this thinly

  fictionalized character so did you like

  it when people engage well obviously

  yeah well I mean I don't know I don't I

  don't think I wasn't trying to provoke

  you I just think there are some people

  who think well you know here's the thing

  I said and I said it and like if you

  really understood it you wouldn't need

  to do all this parsing it's like stop

  stop trying to understand this thing

  that's really easy to understand yeah

  that's the Kurt Cobain model of like of

  ya know obviously I mean I think I think

  it's like that's not my nature right to

  be like I said it it's in the lyrics

  like no no no I want to discuss it

  I've thought about I've thought about

  writing down like a like a like a line

  by line exegesis of my song lyrics I

  just don't know who that audience would

  be I wish you wouldn't know know just

  because I mean you know I don't know I

  mean like I like it not being known well

  let me turn around a little bit so well

  you you do you try to have every line

  tell everything is in there for a reason

  everything it's in the song is in the

  song do you feel like there are romaine

  mysteries and unknowns in songs to you

  like if something as general as like oh

  I'm not really sure who that was about

  or like I'm not really sure what this

  song is saying like your song is very

  much even if I don't always understand

  the POV I know they have a POV like it's

  it's there's somebody somebody's in a

  situation and a lot of the songs but

  like ours you feel like there are still

  unknown corners of your own stuff that

  you would you would benefit from having

  people for lack of a better word

  explained to you oh oh they all I mean

  every song I

  there's the exegesis would not be me

  explaining them as much as me saying

  here are the possibilities is this a lot

  I guess is is more is more my

  relationship to them because they are

  because they are point of view based

  rather than theirs you know it's not

  like this is a song about about John F

  Kennedy but I but I changed his name or

  whatever you know that they're all about

  everything I don't know I I I just

  worked so hard on them and and I feel

  like I feel like they're often just it's

  the problem I guess of any writer where

  you put it up against other pop music

  and some pop music and again Missa pop

  music I love isn't really about anything

  and yet I'm also working in that

  vernacular so I mean I was listening to

  toboni em last night as you do and you

  know boney m has a song called daddy

  cool and it has three lyrics I don't

  think anybody M song has more than about

  15 lyrics boney em yeah but you know

  like for instance my my good pals in the

  band Band of Horses who have that song I

  think I've referred to before where the

  lyric is

  when I was alone is there a ghost in my

  house when I was alone is there a ghost

  in my house and it's a it's a hell of a

  line it conveyed a lot to me but that's

  kind of the main lyric in the song I'm

  sorry it's like one of a very few lyrics

  in the song and it's a more popular song

  than any song I ever wrote but it

  doesn't have any it's not it's not even

  like that

  like the two songs are not like let's

  take that song and any song I wrote

  there's no there's no lyrical

  commonality in terms of intent yeah

  right the lyrics of his song and it's

  great because if you google the lyrics

  of is there a ghost by Band of Horses

  there's a whole lyric sheet it's really

  long and it says I could sleep I could

  sleep I could sleep I could sleep when I

  lived alone as there are ghosts in my

  house I could sleep I could sleep I

  could sleep I can sleep and that's

  that's those are the only lyrics in the

  tune and so so it's like I don't know

  who-who was I writing for I guess you

  write in terms of like when you were

  composing songs yeah like who like

  listening to the lyrics of John

  Darnielle songs it is it's baked into it

  because the songs are so lyric driven

  there's not a lot of keyboard parts

  there's not a lot of he doesn't

  quadruple the harmonies on the chorus is

  it so yeah he's got a boom box and the

  old days there yeah you're there to

  listen to the lyrics it's it's like

  Billy Bragg its folk music

  um I mean you know a lot of songs that I

  like I don't even know I know what John

  you Chandra you call it but like they're

  they whether it's the Beatles or you or

  whomever I like a song that has a sense

  of urgency to it and it doesn't have to

  be urgency in terms of necessarily being

  up beating high-energy or whatever or

  super sad but like but a lot of the

  songs I like and remember and and think

  about there's something there's

  something some message of some kind

  there's some feeling even that has to be

  put across like there's I like you know

  I've got to tell if they see in acting

  like you know the one of the basic

  things to tell you and acting is that

  like remember everybody on stage at a

  given time wants something right they

  and maybe there's other things to it

  maybe there's their secrets that they

  have that they don't want people to know

  but there's something that everybody

  wants out of a scene like if you if

  you're not sure what to do with the

  character think about what it is not

  just quote-unquote motivation but like

  what is the most important to that

  person in the room what are they trying

  to hide what are they trying to show how

  are they are they trying to deceive but

  like everybody up there wants something

  and how if you as an actor you have to

  connect with what that feeling is and I

  feel like a lot of songs UPS is in to

  derail but I feel like in terms of like

  who it's for I'm not always sure but

  like you know there's just there's

  something I've got to tell you and this

  this is how I'm doing it to somebody

  even if it's an imagined person yeah for

  the Beatles a lot of the early stuff was

  that they're just disappointed in women

  I had a kid go back and listen to a lot

  of early and middle Beatles which I

  loved but I was realizing how many songs

  I want to say just John songs but Paul

  song was so many of John songs in

  particular are just about like how

  misunderstood he is by women but he's be

  puts it really well but you know I mean

  something like I want even something as

  simple seemingly simple as I want to

  hold your hand like there's obviously an

  extreme sense of urgency to that yeah in

  that case you know who's being addressed

  in that but sure but when are you

  talking about who you write the songs in

  order to reach as an audience or like

  who the song is addressing oh no I mean

  this my songs are all addressing the

  same people that John Lennon's songs

  were addressing I was just a little bit

  older when I was writing them so it

  wasn't quite not what yeah I mean there

  it was all the same confusion just just

  like quadrupled by an extra decade of

  feeling confused but no it's like it's a

  you know I I have a desire still to be I

  mean we all have a desire to be

  appreciated appreciate her to be heard

  well I'm not so worried about being

  heard you know what I mean like I if if

  I if I go into the great sleep if I go

  gently into that good night and don't

  feel like my cowl my Yelp was was

  registered you know whatever it's not

  it's not I don't feel under heard but

  but no like like when you do when you

  try to do something with subtlety and I

  think this is a this is a lot of the a

  lot of times a problem for anybody

  working in any medium if you try to do

  something with subtlety and then you see

  things that are done unsubtle II succeed

  and you feel like oh you know I like

  worked really hard to make this opaque

  and then somebody comes along it's just

  like shake it shake it yeah people are

  yeah I want to shake it and you're like

  fuck just tearing their shirt open and

  waving them around yeah you're like shit

  you know like who is my audience if not

  everybody if if I'm not just like shake

  it if I'm like super super like making

  all these tiny little beads when you

  when you do it your dream is that you're

  gonna be reaching the same people that

  you're gonna be reaching people like

  yourself who are looking for that in

  other stuff like I'm trying to


  that's like the kefir for a lock I

  didn't know I had right right Oh exactly

  that exactly that but then I think about

  it it's like oh when I could finally

  understand Michael stipes lyrics I was

  really disappointed it was a lot better

  when he when you couldn't tell what he

  was saying and I what I wanted to be was

  I wanted to be as I wanted to create the

  feeling that Michael Stipe created in me

  except when you got into it you found

  there was something there instead of

  just you know like nothing or or partial

  whatever it was that he was like it

  suddenly just happened to be like a

  beautiful splatter pattern yeah I mean

  he was obviously creating a super

  appealing vignettes yeah yeah but also

  yeah it was very I always I've talked

  about this ad nauseam in so many places

  but you know the ability to create a

  mood yeah and a feeling a very poetic

  way where like the sound of the words

  like when you said before like a picket

  or a wire don't worry pick it or a wire

  uh-huh it's also that like think about

  those two words how the contrast can

  sound like one's kind of sharp and one's

  a little bit more round and like that's

  that's why we like Dylan Thomas is like

  as the words the way the words sound is

  part of the meaning and like there's

  meaning under the meaning but then

  there's also meaning in the sounds and

  people get different things from that

  but like you know like you were you were

  just quoting do not go channel but you

  know the force of through the green fuse

  like there's just these these things

  that he says and you're like that's just

  a bunch of words but it's very

  meaningful the way those words sound and

  yeah and it's nice when you dig in a

  little further and go like oh there's

  also there's a pattern to how to the

  syllables there's a pattern to the to

  the rhymes but you don't have to know

  any of that to feel strangely

  emotionally moved by something even if

  you don't understand everything in a

  shakespeare monologue like you're still

  gonna get some kind of a feeling out of

  it do you remember when you first got

  into pavement mm-hmm

  did you were you into pavement very and

  those I was summer babe was my first

  favorite pavement song the effect of

  pavement in terms of creating a mood and

  also being full of

  information and also being and also

  seeming to be full of maybe more

  information than was actually there


  you know like the pavement was such a

  they were so sincere but also just

  mostly smarmy it's like so smarmy but

  there was something really poignant

  about American life in their songs yep

  and and really smart turns of phrase but

  also just thrown off like in a way that

  that suggested like either that they

  didn't care or that half the guys in the

  band didn't understand what half the

  other with the other half of my guys

  were talking about but it didn't matter

  I mean there was so much going on in

  that that influenced me I don't think

  anybody in Seattle wants to acknowledge

  what an influence pavement was because

  we were making our own thing up here

  you're not so it's like it's like you're

  not supposed to be into something that's

  that cheeky right but it was it you know

  it's very influential because it feels

  impossible to duplicate in a way like

  Weezer feels very easy to duplicate you

  need that much exceed sis but like

  here's one I was dressed for success but

  success it never comes and I'm the only

  one who laughs at your jokes when they

  are so bad they get to the chorus and

  all the sterols striking it defends an

  empty dock you cast away and reign upon

  your forehead where the mists for hire

  if it's just too clear let's spend our

  last quarter stance randomly go down to

  the outlet once again that's in the way

  you know painted portraits of minions

  and slaves crotch mavens in one night

  plays and they're the only ones who

  laugh at your jokes when they are so bad

  and the jokes are always bad come join

  us in a prayer will be waiting waiting

  where everything's ending here that's

  named a song here but it's very

  portentous when you listen to it's very

  the tempo and everything it's you know

  for one of their early I guess maybe

  they got cheekier as they went but like

  a little silly but like I always found

  that song very moving I don't know what

  the song is about but I always found it

  very moving it's the same it's the same

  with a lot of Nirvana where you're like

  what the what the hell are you talking

  about but but it's it conveys it's very


  the atmosphere is appropriate like the

  atmosphere communicates and the lyrical

  atmosphere communicates what you want it

  to it's not just yeah this is your seven

  sided lighthouse made of dreams to get

  all of that stuff together I mean you

  know for the lyrics to be meaningful

  that a lot of people go into a song in

  their lyrics people we had a whole

  episode of the show I do with Syracuse

  about this where we talked about your

  music alot but like there's this whole

  thing of like diving straight into what

  the lyrics mean but like to me there's a

  whole like giant play going on here

  there's the set dressing and there's the

  characters and there's like there's so

  much going on and like this little

  little spots about what's said and

  what's not said there's so much to it

  that goes beyond just like what did the

  lyrics mean like there's a whole

  evocation that can be happening in a

  song that even plays against the lyrics

  I mean it's you know I don't know I I

  like music well I know I'm me too and I

  and I just I wonder sometimes I wonder

  whether podcasting with you and being

  and writing articles and stuff whether

  it it did something it took away some of

  the universe building that I had within

  the songs just in that I had expressed a

  view point in the in those albums and I

  was so desperate to be to like be

  interviewed and to be able to explain

  not the worldview of the songs because I

  felt like that's that that was fine you

  know like I'm not I don't need to go in

  back into the songs but I want to talk

  about all this other stuff too and as

  time goes on like does it detract from

  the from the universe from the from the

  Game of Thrones universe if if george RR

  martin is out there also talking about

  how he feels about vending machines and

  so forth but I mean he can't can't put

  the podcast back in the bottle no

  bottles in the bottle to put the genie

  back in the vending machine

  what the fuck it can't be known