The Accidental Tech Podcast

262: A Clear Path to Okayness


  John how are you let's lighten the mood [TS]

  how's things going with you John I'm [TS]

  tired I'm exhausted you guys are making [TS]

  any more exhaustion I seem to have [TS]

  become the authority on not seeing easy [TS]

  solutions to my problems so if somebody [TS]

  didn't tell you about our sink now I [TS]

  have heard about our sink and I actually [TS]

  have used it for years literally years [TS]

  but that's not the issue um I've been [TS]

  working on an app that I don't [TS]

  particularly want to talk about these [TS]

  specifics on the show but suffice to say [TS]

  it relates to health kit which already [TS]

  means I'm kind of treading on [TS]

  underscores waters actually but whatever [TS]

  so I asked him you know hey is there any [TS]

  way to export health kit data and bring [TS]

  it into the simulator because I prefer [TS]

  to do most of my development against [TS]

  simulator because it's quicker and [TS]

  easier so I need a whole bunch of health [TS]

  get data on on the simulator and I was [TS]

  like man is there any way to export it [TS]

  then like important places there's [TS]

  somewhere on the file system or [TS]

  something like that that I can do this [TS]

  and in in the most polite way which is [TS]

  underscores you know mo in the most [TS]

  polite way he said to me these are my [TS]

  words mind you you freaking idiot you [TS]

  can get on iCloud on the simulator just [TS]

  join your accounts on iCloud I don't [TS]

  know you could do that you'll see but I [TS]

  did know that you could do that but I [TS]

  didn't put two and two together but this [TS]

  is where it gets real bad and I [TS]

  shouldn't share this publicly but here I [TS]

  am he said I said to him but underscore [TS]

  here's the thing I want to be able to [TS]

  like save things to health kit but I [TS]

  don't want them to actually save too you [TS]

  know like the canonical instance of [TS]

  health kids so in other words if I save [TS]

  I don't know like in at like a workout [TS]

  which is not actually what this app does [TS]

  but for the sake of conversation I save [TS]

  a workout I don't want it to go to like [TS]

  my actual canonical health kit I don't [TS]

  know identity for lack of a better word [TS]

  a repository I want that to kind of just [TS]

  live alone on the simulator so without [TS]

  batting an eye underscore says so sign [TS]

  out of iCloud like two weeks away from [TS]

  having an arm full of Apple watches like [TS]

  underscore does you know this is such [TS]

  easy solution why do I not see these [TS]

  things I maybe I'm just a really crummy [TS]

  developer and I don't realize it but uh [TS]

  golly like I don't think I'm an [TS]

  exceptionally great developer but I [TS]

  didn't think I was that bad of a [TS]

  developer why don't why don't I see [TS]

  these things why can't I why can't i [TS]

  recognize this [TS]

  so everyone hire KC for your development [TS]

  [Laughter] [TS]

  that's the trick that's the ticket right [TS]

  there you really do a good job at [TS]

  selling yourself this is why I don't [TS]

  want to this is why I don't want to be [TS]

  an independent consultant I love that [TS]

  you you keep I heard your episode of [TS]

  analog it was very good last episode of [TS]

  analog where Mike talk to you through a [TS]

  lot of this stuff which I highly suggest [TS]

  anyway everybody listen to just because [TS]

  it's a good show to begin with but also [TS]

  if you're interested in our arc of [TS]

  trying to convince Casey to you know go [TS]

  out on his own somehow it was a very [TS]

  good episode and and and I think and we [TS]

  even got we got this like two thousand [TS]

  word email that it does seem like your [TS]

  heart is not really in consulting like [TS]

  it does seem like you don't really care [TS]

  to do it right and that's the thing [TS]

  that's the thing then you know fine I'm [TS]

  not gonna I'm not gonna push that [TS]

  anymore because to do anything like that [TS]

  you have to you have to be a little more [TS]

  into it then than what you are so that's [TS]

  what I'm not gonna happen so okay I'll [TS]

  stop pushing that button I do however [TS]

  think it's hilarious that you keep [TS]

  trying to trade in these like these ways [TS]

  that you can immediately get a lot of [TS]

  money for things that take like years to [TS]

  build up to a livable wage like I think [TS]

  I'm gonna start a YouTube app and making [TS]

  small indie apps or YouTube channel [TS]

  rather excuse me yeah that's indie [TS]

  success right there guaranteed everyone [TS]

  is making money hand over fist in the [TS]

  App Store on YouTube there's no way for [TS]

  this to be for this to be a disaster [TS]

  right here's what you do you get five [TS]

  envelopes in each one you put $5 you [TS]

  mail the top two to these people then [TS]

  you mail it a whole buncha letter so [TS]

  it's like it's like this like like if [TS]

  you started doing these things ten years [TS]

  ago you might now have enough to live on [TS]

  exactly these are slow slow buildings [TS]

  slow like it takes a while [TS]

  [Laughter] [TS]

  that's so true I don't know I don't know [TS]

  I have been waffling about this Erin and [TS]

  I have been talking a lot about this and [TS]

  and I I not in [TS]

  in an angry way like I'm not upset about [TS]

  it at all but I'm I I don't want to talk [TS]

  about anymore at this particular moment [TS]

  because I feel like all I've been doing [TS]

  stressing about it for the last month [TS]

  and a half but I have such conflicted [TS]

  and mixed thoughts that I don't know [TS]

  what to do and it's like you know I [TS]

  think your your assessment is accurate [TS]

  that the idea of just $10.99 in my way [TS]

  through life that is to say being an [TS]

  independent consultant like there are [TS]

  ways in which I think that would be fun [TS]

  like let's say for the sake of [TS]

  discussion I can I can wave my magic [TS]

  wand and I can have you give me [TS]

  I don't know between 5 and 10 hours of [TS]

  work a week I can have underscore give [TS]

  me 5 to 10 hours of work a week I can [TS]

  have some of my other independent you [TS]

  know app developers like you know jelly [TS]

  who works on gift-wrapped which if you [TS]

  believe in animated gifs at all you [TS]

  should have or you know Curtis who works [TS]

  on slopes as another example which if [TS]

  you believe in skiing or snowboarding [TS]

  you should have that app you know if any [TS]

  of these people if all of you guys an [TS]

  underscore of course you know if you [TS]

  guys could each you know shave off 5 to [TS]

  10 hours each then then I could probably [TS]

  make a living but the idea of just like [TS]

  going out and chasing random people for [TS]

  work and random businesses for work it's [TS]

  just just the thought of is it it is [TS]

  extremely tiring and that's not to say [TS]

  that that's bad or wrong or anything [TS]

  else it's just I don't see your point [TS]

  Marco I don't think my heart is in [TS]

  chasing chasing work from random people [TS]

  and and I mean that in a nasty way just [TS]

  in in in an observational way so well I [TS]

  do wonder though I think the the part of [TS]

  that of the 2,000 word email that we got [TS]

  that was mostly a little bit off-putting [TS]

  but the part of it I thought was was [TS]

  interesting and potentially a good path [TS]

  to consider is the part where the author [TS]

  says that you know clearly your heart's [TS]

  not in consulting which I think was true [TS]

  but that maybe you should consider being [TS]

  like the Swift person like yes and who [TS]

  has been a lot of instructional Swift [TS]

  content like you know granted that's a [TS]

  very crowded market there's a lot of [TS]

  people who have been doing a lot of [TS]

  instructional Swift content for a long [TS]

  time [TS]

  but you also already have an existing [TS]

  audience of developers which is pretty [TS]

  good like that's that's a pretty good [TS]

  advantage to start with and and so you [TS]

  do have a bit of an unfair advantage [TS]

  there which you can used you know to [TS]

  your advantage the other thing I would [TS]

  say is [TS]

  if it when when talking about like you [TS]

  know who you could get consulting work [TS]

  from don't do like me and underscore and [TS]

  Curtis like we're all indie developers [TS]

  working on indie budgets like yeah I [TS]

  know it's like we're the worst people to [TS]

  have trying to get consulting work for [TS]

  because we can barely afford employees [TS]

  like I think Margaret has pre fired you [TS]

  I thought I might give him some hours if [TS]

  he did this but like but you know I I'm [TS]

  in a position that most in these are not [TS]

  and and even I you know I couldn't [TS]

  afford you full time although okay can I [TS]

  just say publicly that it may be worth [TS]

  maybe not the money but worth the [TS]

  experience for both of us [TS]

  to watch me have to slum it an [TS]

  objective-c land and watch you have to [TS]

  slum it and deal with an employee like [TS]

  that would be hilarious on many [TS]

  different levels the really interesting [TS]

  reality show it would be the least [TS]

  interesting but perhaps most funny cards [TS]

  against humanity' to sponsor yeah right [TS]

  but seriously like you don't let me [TS]

  speak for you but I have the feeling [TS]

  like even with me and I like to think I [TS]

  get a little bit of special privilege [TS]

  here you have no interest in having [TS]

  anyone as like an employee in any [TS]

  capacity and although I don't have any [TS]

  real angst against Objective C I have [TS]

  let's say I feel like it's a little bit [TS]

  old and a little bit tired I mean that's [TS]

  what could be said for all of us right [TS]

  well that that's fair you do bad you'd [TS]

  like you you send me off to work on some [TS]

  bug fix and I like rewrite an entire [TS]

  class and Swift and try to pass that by [TS]

  I wouldn't do that for several different [TS]

  reasons but just was take a discussion [TS]

  like I write this entire class I rewrite [TS]

  the entire class and Swift like here you [TS]

  go here you go Marco this is good right [TS]

  you just look at this not like what [TS]

  I could just settle all this money on [TS]

  fire by making you write unit tests well [TS]

  I don't know if it on fire I almost [TS]

  walked into that you bastard you're more [TS]

  right than you are wrong you big jerk we [TS]

  should get started [TS]

  slash continue with talking about how [TS]

  Siri is all up in front of the show [TS]

  Daniel jelq it's business so who who [TS]

  added this the show notes can tell me [TS]

  what's going on I added the [TS]

  here's the first account I read of I [TS]

  think a story that I've heard from a lot [TS]

  of people now as he relates to home pod [TS]

  it's that you've got this thing in your [TS]

  house and unfortunately it has the same [TS]

  trigger phrase as a bunch of other [TS]

  things that you might also have in your [TS]

  house so once you get past the you know [TS]

  being amazed that it can hear you over [TS]

  the odd music or whatever and you just [TS]

  happen to be in your house and you talk [TS]

  to some device that may or may not be [TS]

  your home pod and your home pod decides [TS]

  oh I can totally hear you and I'm gonna [TS]

  take this for you hang on I got it and [TS]

  Apple has this thing where if multiple [TS]

  devices are around and you say the [TS]

  trigger word they negotiate amongst each [TS]

  other to figure out who's gonna answer [TS]

  but home pod will grab a request that it [TS]

  can't handle just to tell you that it [TS]

  can't do that all right so that it would [TS]

  have worked if it was on your phone but [TS]

  home pods grabs it maybe because it has [TS]

  better microphones or because it like it [TS]

  takes priority or whatever and then it [TS]

  grabs it and says oh yeah no I totally [TS]

  can't do that sorry about that so that's [TS]

  not that's not nice behavior and a lot [TS]

  of people have complained about that and [TS]

  it's kind of another situation where [TS]

  apples had a few of these where like [TS]

  their best customers are more likely to [TS]

  run into these complex problems right [TS]

  Apple wants you to have a household of [TS]

  Apple devices you got Macs and iPads and [TS]

  phones and everybody should have one and [TS]

  they should be all over the place and [TS]

  yet if you do that you run into all the [TS]

  situations in which apple doesn't handle [TS]

  a houseful of devices we've talked [TS]

  before about the you know families [TS]

  sharing you know iCloud and photos [TS]

  accounts you know the before the family [TS]

  plans for iCloud storage existed before [TS]

  was a while before Siri could understand [TS]

  different people and you had to do the [TS]

  training and everything so now can [TS]

  distinguish voices well here's another [TS]

  growing pane of the multi Apple device [TS]

  lifestyle if you've got multiple things [TS]

  in your house listening for the same [TS]

  trigger phrase it's great that they [TS]

  didn't go she ate with each other it's [TS]

  not so great that the negotiation [TS]

  results in the worst possible device [TS]

  answering your question I mean the funny [TS]

  thing is like in many ways it's actually [TS]

  rewards you if you're a person who has [TS]

  not gotten into the hey Siri ecosystem [TS]

  like if you like like me like I I don't [TS]

  leave it on my phones I tried [TS]

  because I have like my iPad that just [TS]

  sits in the kitchen all day for the most [TS]

  part and I figured like maybe I could [TS]

  use that the way I use the Amazon echo [TS]

  like maybe I could set timers and stuff [TS]

  using using hey Siri on the iPad and [TS]

  I've tried that and it's terrible so I'd [TS]

  never do it but oh crap my development [TS]

  phones why you saying it see how nicely [TS]

  I said trigger phrase like 9 times so [TS]

  you're just rattling on them off and now [TS]

  you're being punished no the rule is if [TS]

  Phil Schiller can go on the talk show [TS]

  and say hey Siri in front of everybody [TS]

  have it not have nothing go off then I [TS]

  can do it on on a podcast but he's got a [TS]

  computerized chip in his throat that [TS]

  masks and says if Isis won't pick it up [TS]

  yeah like the Amazon echo ads in the [TS]

  Superbowl by the way that's that Amazon [TS]

  echo method where you cut out the 3 [TS]

  kilohertz thing I played with that I [TS]

  could not reproduce that I could not get [TS]

  that to actually work and that post was [TS]

  like a year old so I'm guessing it's [TS]

  it's not did you see that I tweeted [TS]

  something there's some paper about how [TS]

  you can make basically any spoken phrase [TS]

  be interpreted by speech recognition [TS]

  engine as any other phrase that you want [TS]

  you have to know the details of the [TS]

  recognition engine but of course Amazon [TS]

  does know the details it's pretty neat [TS]

  it does you can notice that it's been [TS]

  modified like there's noise added but [TS]

  it's fascinating and terrifying that you [TS]

  can have the audio say anything you want [TS]

  and have the transcription say an [TS]

  entirely different phrase yeah yeah [TS]

  anyway so the point is like if you are a [TS]

  a home pod person you actually have a [TS]

  pretty good reason right now to disable [TS]

  the hey dingus feature on as many [TS]

  devices you can get away with it because [TS]

  it's like like if you don't end up using [TS]

  that much like if you're if you're [TS]

  willing to just hit the button on things [TS]

  you're way better off having that often [TS]

  lots of devices because that way you [TS]

  won't have this problem where the home [TS]

  pod grabs it when it's actually not the [TS]

  device that either you want or that even [TS]

  can handle the requestor giving it could [TS]

  add a good story to it he was using he [TS]

  was timers for like a midday meditation [TS]

  and the home pod grabbed the you know [TS]

  please set a timer for whatever we're [TS]

  just fine you know whatever and you can [TS]

  set a timer for me but unlike the device [TS]

  Cindy normally that he was trying to [TS]

  talk to his his watch they're like taps [TS]

  you when like your time is up [TS]

  then the home pod would speak out loud [TS]

  about setting the timer and about one a [TS]

  time one offer really kind of harsh your [TS]

  mellow when you're trying to meditate so [TS]

  yeah that's the intentionality of what [TS]

  you want like if you talk to your wrist [TS]

  despite the fact that the home pod can [TS]

  you just fine and like quote-unquote [TS]

  wins the contest and it can support [TS]

  timers it doesn't understand that you [TS]

  were talking to your wrist anyone [TS]

  looking at you would know you were [TS]

  talking to your wrist because they'd see [TS]

  you doing that but the home pod can't [TS]

  see you maybe just needs cameras Wow but [TS]

  on a happier note tell us about the [TS]

  Sonos and wood furniture that's not [TS]

  happy it's sad but yeah so no said I'm [TS]

  sure lots of other audio and non audio [TS]

  products that have the same feet made of [TS]

  the same or similar material that like [TS]

  soaks up the oil from the wood and [TS]

  everything can also leave marks and I [TS]

  think that's terrible I think that you [TS]

  know again I said on a live show I [TS]

  understand that it's important to have [TS]

  something vibration absorbing down there [TS]

  for audio performance but I have to [TS]

  believe there is some substance on the [TS]

  planet that is both squishy and does not [TS]

  absorb oil from wood furniture leaving [TS]

  rings or marks of any kind so shame on [TS]

  Sonos shame on Apple and I believe we [TS]

  have a technology to solve this we were [TS]

  sponsored this week by simple contacts [TS]

  go to simple contacts comm slash ATP and [TS]

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  to simple contact for sponsoring our [TS]

  show where's the home pod because I know [TS]

  I don't and that's a no small part [TS]

  because I friggin hate Siri Marco I do [TS]

  not although that's in partially small [TS]

  part because I've been traveling so I [TS]

  wasn't actually anywhere where I could [TS]

  buy one I have still thought about maybe [TS]

  put it on the counter one day I want to [TS]

  know actually I was thinking like [TS]

  because I know like some of our friends [TS]

  like Merlin are very positive about the [TS]

  echo is that the spot the little [TS]

  circular one I think that's right yeah I [TS]

  was I was wondering maybe I could try [TS]

  one of those because the one the one [TS]

  reason I got the echo show for a day and [TS]

  then returned it promptly was that I [TS]

  really would like to see the progress of [TS]

  the timer's counting down while cooking [TS]

  you know right now I could just I just [TS]

  asked the echo hey timer status but it's [TS]

  you know ideally I could watch them or [TS]

  see them you know without having to ask [TS]

  something have it hear it over the fan [TS]

  on the stove and then you know so anyway [TS]

  so I was thinking maybe I could get an [TS]

  echo spot put it on the little counter [TS]

  right next to where we cook and then [TS]

  have the home pod on like the kind of [TS]

  like transitional counter to the big [TS]

  great room and dining room area where [TS]

  that's where the music should come from [TS]

  so I thought about that but I don't know [TS]

  I still I still think I want to wait it [TS]

  just seems like there's so many like 1.0 [TS]

  limitations and little annoyances here [TS]

  and there that people are having and [TS]

  also I got I'm not that hot on Siri so I [TS]

  think I'm gonna wait a little bit or [TS]

  until I have a really good reason for [TS]

  overcast development oh we can hope we [TS]

  can hope how about you John I actually [TS]

  got something for Marco mark it on your [TS]

  calendar [TS]

  you got the whole [TS]

  got a home pod yeah just one just one uh [TS]

  which actually more than one would have [TS]

  been cool but anyway I did I I knew I [TS]

  had a place for it because I don't I put [TS]

  it in the same room that I have my [TS]

  Google home Mini which I got for free as [TS]

  part of some other purchase and of [TS]

  course you did never one play audio on [TS]

  all right so there's competition for it [TS]

  in terms of answering questions and in [TS]

  general I think I'll probably still ask [TS]

  questions to the Google home mini mostly [TS]

  about who stars in movies that I'm [TS]

  watching on television well I'm watching [TS]

  them and yes I know that lots of [TS]

  applications on Apple TV can do that for [TS]

  you [TS]

  some of them like I think the Amazon [TS]

  won't even if you just pause it will [TS]

  show you like who's on screen right now [TS]

  so be aware of that but but anyway I [TS]

  find myself asking questions of the [TS]

  Google home mostly because force of [TS]

  habit [TS]

  but I don't really have anything in that [TS]

  room that can play good audio that is [TS]

  always on I do have [TS]

  okay speakers attached to my TV but [TS]

  usually that whole receiver and [TS]

  everything is off when someone's not [TS]

  watching TV so it's nice to have [TS]

  something in there that you know it [TS]

  sounds okay and that I can both speak to [TS]

  to make it play something and in a pinch [TS]

  airplay too so I subscribe to Apple [TS]

  music I tried to do like some family [TS]

  trial thing or whatever I still assume I [TS]

  will unsubscribe eventually but I wanted [TS]

  to give it a fair shot to say I want to [TS]

  be able to just speak to the air and [TS]

  have it play music and it sounds pretty [TS]

  good [TS]

  no I didn't put it on the coaster it is [TS]

  sitting on top of my furniture but I [TS]

  don't have any nice furniture in my life [TS]

  period so I don't have to worry about it [TS]

  let me see like my dining room tables [TS]

  okay but anyway I don't have a nice [TS]

  furniture for the most part so I don't [TS]

  have to worry about it leaving rings [TS]

  it's sitting on top of what I assume is [TS]

  a computer printed photograph of wood [TS]

  you know transferred onto some kind of [TS]

  aluminum powder cover with the plastic [TS]

  dust crappy piece of furniture that I [TS]

  have I tried it in a bunch of different [TS]

  positions to see how it would adjust its [TS]

  sound [TS]

  couldn't tell much of a difference you [TS]

  know [TS]

  I couldn't tell whether it was just [TS]

  thing it's sound or whether just sound [TS]

  different because it was in a different [TS]

  place I do have a kind of near a corner [TS]

  which i think is not great for Bumi [TS]

  but I really it's really the best place [TS]

  I have for the thing I got white mostly [TS]

  because I couldn't decide and so I asked [TS]

  my son he picked white which I think is [TS]

  a reasonable choice because all the [TS]

  other things are white as well in terms [TS]

  of filling the room with sound tell that [TS]

  it's a point source like that's why I [TS]

  mentioned I could get two of them might [TS]

  be better even if it wasn't just stereo [TS]

  like I can tell the sound is coming from [TS]

  that part of the room but of course you [TS]

  expected to be able to tell that like [TS]

  it's not it's not magic but it is let's [TS]

  put it this way it is less enveloping [TS]

  than the 5.1 system that I have on my TV [TS]

  and yeah I probably sounds better than [TS]

  the 5.1 system but the 5.1 system [TS]

  surrounds the room so when I play you [TS]

  know find out actually open those times [TS]

  I play music like during Christmas Eve [TS]

  like Christmas music when you're like [TS]

  decorating the tree or on Christmas Day [TS]

  or whatever it's nice to have it come [TS]

  from all around and maybe I'll still do [TS]

  that but it's in the room I talked to it [TS]

  my my like out of box experience was not [TS]

  the greatest because you go and you set [TS]

  up a thing it shows a little picture of [TS]

  the home pod you like yes set up and you [TS]

  know you go through the whole thing [TS]

  everything seems fine and then you can [TS]

  go to the home app to control the device [TS]

  or to do something I know I'd never even [TS]

  launched my life so I launched the whole [TS]

  map and there's my home pod that I just [TS]

  set up and just got a big red message on [TS]

  it that says like not responding it was [TS]

  like that for is like what do you mean [TS]

  not responding the thing is right there [TS]

  I'm talking to it it's working fine how [TS]

  can you tell me it's not responding [TS]

  eventually it started responding and I [TS]

  saw you can tap on it to like pause the [TS]

  music and tap again to unpause and write [TS]

  whatever and then like 15 minutes later [TS]

  launched the home application again to [TS]

  try to pause it from a different room [TS]

  and there was a little spinner on it [TS]

  like the little dodd spinner and the [TS]

  spinner just spun there and it just spun [TS]

  for like five minutes since I closed the [TS]

  home app not you know what I don't know [TS]

  what the deal with that is I don't know [TS]

  what its problem was seems to work now [TS]

  not a great experience just one of those [TS]

  kind of like oh sometimes Apple stuff [TS]

  doesn't work you do have to wait those [TS]

  kind of kind of depressing I did all the [TS]

  experiments everyone else did turn the [TS]

  volume real loud talk to it it's [TS]

  impressive how well I can hear you I was [TS]

  not impressed with how quickly it [TS]

  executed my commands it shows the most [TS]

  when you're telling it to [TS]

  playing a song because I do that all the [TS]

  time with the with the Google home side [TS]

  because my kids make them play things [TS]

  and I want them to stop immediately [TS]

  right so this is probably my most common [TS]

  interaction I mean these devices tell it [TS]

  to stop playing whatever audio it's [TS]

  currently playing and the home pod will [TS]

  do it but a little bit more lag than [TS]

  there is when I'm telling any of the [TS]

  Gould devices the Google devices like as [TS]

  soon as I get the word out of my mouth [TS]

  it's like boom the audio cuts off the [TS]

  home pod seems like I have to think [TS]

  about it for a half a second or so and I [TS]

  find that a little bit annoying [TS]

  considering it's much more expensive [TS]

  than the other ones so yeah not no real [TS]

  surprises are the only thing that I [TS]

  didn't anticipate is how angry my [TS]

  children would get when they try to talk [TS]

  to it using the Google's trigger phrase [TS]

  so they're constantly saying you know [TS]

  okay Google or whatever to try to make [TS]

  it do things especially again if it's in [TS]

  the middle of something and one kid [TS]

  wants to stop it playing audio play a [TS]

  different one they're yelling at it to [TS]

  be and this of the odd so the Google [TS]

  thing is answering them at this you know [TS]

  trying to play music at the same time [TS]

  it's like you have to talk to but it's [TS]

  like what they don't understand why you [TS]

  would have to use a different phrase I [TS]

  mean I guess you can explain like it's [TS]

  not a Google thing or whatever but [TS]

  that's stupid so yeah so I have I have [TS]

  such mixed feelings about this so we got [TS]

  a letter from Tim routers in in Tim said [TS]

  I see some funny parallels between Apple [TS]

  product launches even with you guys with [TS]

  respect to home pod in your latest [TS]

  episodes and Tim enumerates a bunch of [TS]

  things in and I'll try to summarize his [TS]

  summary so in when the iPod was released [TS]

  in 2001 you know it enters an existing [TS]

  market of mp3 players oh there's no [TS]

  wireless so there's less space no Nomad [TS]

  lame iPhone oh it's ridiculously [TS]

  expensive it isn't a physical keyboard [TS]

  no cop cut copy paste no 3G etc etc home [TS]

  pod well it's ridiculously expensive it [TS]

  doesn't do multi-room audio doesn't do [TS]

  stereo doesn't do multi users fearless [TS]

  serious is severely limited etc so Tim's [TS]

  point as he continues I'm assuming he [TS]

  continues every time Apple blitter [TS]

  eights critics with its relentless focus [TS]

  on continuous improvement so in so many [TS]

  words why isn't home pod the same thing [TS]

  all over again well I mean I don't think [TS]

  it's fair to assume that every Apple [TS]

  product that is a kind of weird or if he [TS]

  or delayed or incomplete one point oh [TS]

  we'll like you know grow up to be an [TS]

  awesome 2.0 or 3.0 4.0 like the initial [TS]

  iPod was really expensive and it was [TS]

  pretty limited especially cuz it was [TS]

  like Mac only at the time like it was [TS]

  there were reasons to be skeptical of [TS]

  the initial iPod and that market wasn't [TS]

  really proven yet whereas you know over [TS]

  time they did make it great and it was [TS]

  very successful the original iPhone was [TS]

  too expensive for a lot of people that [TS]

  original one did not sell nearly as many [TS]

  as the follow-up models but you know [TS]

  over time they made the iPhone [TS]

  ridiculously great I mean in my opinion [TS]

  was pretty great from day one but it [TS]

  they made it more successful and more [TS]

  mass-market as time went on but like [TS]

  look at the Apple watch the first [TS]

  version the Apple watch was barely [TS]

  usable it was really a pretty mediocre [TS]

  product it had lots of problems lost [TS]

  limitations lots of weird and bad design [TS]

  choices they did it iterate that over [TS]

  time but most of that iteration happened [TS]

  with the help of additional hardware [TS]

  generations and a couple of years of [TS]

  software generations that doesn't mean [TS]

  that we were wrong to criticize the [TS]

  Apple watch 1.0 the Apple watch 1.0 [TS]

  needed a lot of criticism the home pod I [TS]

  think is gonna be more like that but [TS]

  although I think it's probably starting [TS]

  from a better place you know the home [TS]

  pod is clearly at one point there's lots [TS]

  of missing features there's lots of [TS]

  things that are a little bit wonky or [TS]

  don't quite work the way people want [TS]

  them to but I do expect over time for [TS]

  the home pod to get significantly better [TS]

  that doesn't mean that this home pod [TS]

  will get necessarily a better life that [TS]

  might require new hardware so I think it [TS]

  is fair to criticize this one and the [TS]

  other side of this is that a lot of the [TS]

  criticism about the home pod today is a [TS]

  bath Siri and the limitations of Siri [TS]

  and inferior performance in some areas [TS]

  of Siri I don't think we can reasonably [TS]

  assume that's going to get better at at [TS]

  the same kind of pace that we're used to [TS]

  seeing Apple products get better with [TS]

  when you're mainly waiting on like [TS]

  hardware advances like we need the CPU [TS]

  in this thing to get faster that's gonna [TS]

  happen that's you know that that's kind [TS]

  of a sure thing to happen you know one [TS]

  to two years after the launch of [TS]

  version 1 of pretty much anything that [TS]

  Apple makes when you're when you're [TS]

  worried about like the local device [TS]

  software getting better like apples [TS]

  pretty good at local device software [TS]

  there's some flaws here and there but [TS]

  they're pretty good at it but Siri is [TS]

  not new and has gotten better at a [TS]

  glacial pace and in many ways has the [TS]

  same problems to it as it did when it [TS]

  launched like seven years ago I don't [TS]

  necessarily think it's a reasonable [TS]

  assumption that the home pods flaws that [TS]

  are Siri related are about to get better [TS]

  or gonna get better in two years I [TS]

  actually don't think that's a safe [TS]

  assumption I would love that to be the [TS]

  case but the track record of serious so [TS]

  far is is pretty slow progress and [TS]

  certain types of things that basically [TS]

  are always problems I don't see that [TS]

  changing quickly at least not as a sure [TS]

  thing so I think it is reasonable to [TS]

  criticize home pod 1.0 for no one to be [TS]

  making fun of us for criticizing the [TS]

  things that are actually wrong with it [TS]

  today and also to be a little skeptical [TS]

  of Siri improvements being meaningful [TS]

  that are coming anytime soon the funny [TS]

  thing about this is is that Siri murder [TS]

  at least my understanding the [TS]

  implementation of Siri is one of the few [TS]

  things that Apple could actually tweak [TS]

  on their end without a software update [TS]

  right like they can make tweaks to Siri [TS]

  server-side and they can do that at any [TS]

  time and obviously that's not a [TS]

  universal thing but generally speaking [TS]

  they can make Siri a lot better without [TS]

  having to do any sort of software update [TS]

  locally and so here's the one place [TS]

  where Apple is most well equipped to [TS]

  make changes and yet I completely agree [TS]

  with you Marco that Siri has gotten [TS]

  potentially even worse than when it was [TS]

  new no it's not worse than it definitely [TS]

  and they started out pretty bad it [TS]

  definitely is better and and it is [TS]

  getting better but it's getting better [TS]

  at a very slow pace and it still is you [TS]

  know it gains new abilities you know [TS]

  about once a year which is not [TS]

  frequently enough it you know gains like [TS]

  new abilities about once a year but it [TS]

  is not it seems like it hit a plateau of [TS]

  reliability like roughly in year two or [TS]

  three and hasn't really gotten more [TS]

  reliable since then yeah the point I'm [TS]

  driving at though is that [TS]

  it's weird to me that this is the one [TS]

  place where Apple could really you know [TS]

  ship fast ship ship off and and and they [TS]

  don't and it really bums me out and man [TS]

  I have so many angry thoughts about Siri [TS]

  that we'll probably get to next that I'm [TS]

  just gonna leave for now but I agree [TS]

  with pretty much everything you just [TS]

  said [TS]

  John so when you read this I think we [TS]

  got all of it from the email and so I [TS]

  think this like we didn't leave out any [TS]

  examples and basically the only two [TS]

  examples are iPod and iPhone the gist of [TS]

  the email is you know why do you doubt [TS]

  Apple like they haven't they proven the [TS]

  doubters wrong right doesn't you know [TS]

  the last night history proves you wrong [TS]

  doesn't it right well I think to start [TS]

  we have to say whatever whatever a [TS]

  logical fallacy or statistical bias that [TS]

  is you know you cherry picked like it's [TS]

  a ipod an iPhone as two examples yes yes [TS]

  there's the you know the famous [TS]

  was it Rob motive of Slashdot anyone [TS]

  remember slash time yeah no I probably [TS]

  know where I let's let's paste in [TS]

  nomadland that's what that quote is and [TS]

  that people lots of people doubted the [TS]

  iPhone right those are like the apples [TS]

  two biggest products have for the Mac so [TS]

  yeah you can pick them and say there [TS]

  were doubters there were doubters for [TS]

  ping two that didn't go anywhere [TS]

  there were doubters for the iPod Hi five [TS]

  doesn't go anywhere there were doubters [TS]

  for the g4 cube that like you know yeah [TS]

  if you just pick the ones that end up [TS]

  being smash successes it can look like [TS]

  hey history proves you wrong but setting [TS]

  that aside like so whatever you know so [TS]

  you can't use these as examples anything [TS]

  but what's different about the home pot [TS]

  then the success is what makes it more [TS]

  likely to be more like whatever sort of [TS]

  no not-so-great success then it is to be [TS]

  like the iPod and the iPhone and I think [TS]

  there is not to say that this means home [TS]

  pot is not going to be a success but I [TS]

  think it probably means a home pot won't [TS]

  be as huge of success as the iPod iPhone [TS]

  both of those things came into the [TS]

  market and they were substantially [TS]

  different than the existing players [TS]

  obviously the iPhone was difficult is [TS]

  amused about how it was different [TS]

  there's no physical keyboard no one does [TS]

  phones like that you can't make a phone [TS]

  like this doesn't even have 3G all the [TS]

  phones out there have 3G and you know [TS]

  expensive but like the iPhone was not [TS]

  just like a Nokia candy bar phone but [TS]

  with an apple logo on it right it was [TS]

  very very different [TS]

  it had things that no other phone in the [TS]

  market had that's you know the software [TS]

  obviously no other phone in the market [TS]

  behave like that people didn't even [TS]

  think it could possibly be real right [TS]

  the iPod was more conventional but still [TS]

  it was smaller and more well integrated [TS]

  than the other devices that you could [TS]

  buy that hold lots of songs in them and [TS]

  the key part about the iPod was that [TS]

  normal people could successful it could [TS]

  be successful at the task of taking your [TS]

  music collection and putting it on this [TS]

  device and listening to it I owned a [TS]

  bunch of pre iPod solid-state music [TS]

  players and if you remember they also [TS]

  had pre iPod hard drive based ones over [TS]

  the size of a truck right normal people [TS]

  would if they bought those things at all [TS]

  which they probably wouldn't tended to [TS]

  be less successful again I know it was [TS]

  that my wife was not successful getting [TS]

  the audio onto her tiny little flash [TS]

  whatever a samsung or maybe was [TS]

  Panasonic I can remember like there were [TS]

  a Yamaha that iPod was different than [TS]

  the others in that it was better in all [TS]

  ways in terms of like size and number of [TS]

  songs that had held and it was better [TS]

  and always related to user interface and [TS]

  so even though it was very limited and [TS]

  it was Mac only it was expensive and it [TS]

  had no wireless and had less space than [TS]

  a nomad which I think was the one of the [TS]

  hard drive bass players in the market [TS]

  yep it had significant advantages home [TS]

  pod enters a market already populated by [TS]

  devices that already do more than the [TS]

  home pod does in exactly the same way [TS]

  that the home pod intents that do it [TS]

  there are cylindrical shape speakers [TS]

  that play audio that you can talk to [TS]

  right there is no differentiator for the [TS]

  home pot except perhaps audio quality [TS]

  and it's not like there's no competition [TS]

  for audio quality Sonos has good audio [TS]

  quality and depending on whose test you [TS]

  look at even the google max thing seems [TS]

  to be so so right so the home pod comes [TS]

  in with no real differentiator like [TS]

  there's nothing that it does that is [TS]

  different it's not like everything else [TS]

  has a physical keyboard and it doesn't [TS]

  all the other ones require you to touch [TS]

  them and the home pod lets you talk to [TS]

  it no it's exactly the same feature set [TS]

  and that's why the home pods getting [TS]

  slammed because it comes into a crowded [TS]

  market doing nothing different or better [TS]

  than the competition and not doing many [TS]

  things that the competition does and [TS]

  like I said the only thing you could say [TS]

  homebuyers go [TS]

  for it is audio quality but even audio [TS]

  quality / price you can get to Sonos [TS]

  ones versus the home pod and two saunas [TS]

  one sound just about as good as the home [TS]

  pod with the possible exception of bass [TS]

  most people say so that thin edge of [TS]

  like okay well it's the best sounding [TS]

  cylinder that you can talk that you can [TS]

  get but on the other side of that coin [TS]

  you can't talk to it in as many ways as [TS]

  you can talk to these seven other [TS]

  products means that it's getting slammed [TS]

  for I think legitimate reasons and it [TS]

  also means that unless something very [TS]

  important changes it doesn't have the [TS]

  potential to be a breakout hit in the [TS]

  same way the iPhone the iPod dupe [TS]

  because it isn't differentiated enough [TS]

  even if it gets better at everything and [TS]

  it is as good as the Google home devices [TS]

  at answering your things and you know as [TS]

  good as Sonos an audio quality or [TS]

  whatever you've just caught up then [TS]

  right whereas the iPhone was is either [TS]

  gonna live or die based on the idea that [TS]

  you can have a phone that's all screen [TS]

  and guess what it lived right and same [TS]

  thing with the iPod is the ease of [TS]

  putting some music on this thing enough [TS]

  to make up for the high price well you [TS]

  know that turns out that it was [TS]

  especially once it came to Windows the [TS]

  iteration is definitely a thing but even [TS]

  iteration can't save you entirely okay [TS]

  not save you can't make you a wildly [TS]

  successful Apple TV is a great example [TS]

  Apple TV came out a long time ago back [TS]

  when it was called ITV before the Apple [TS]

  doesn't learn they couldn't use that [TS]

  name [TS]

  the original Apple TV was not popular [TS]

  and did not succeed other devices came [TS]

  on market and did better than the [TS]

  original Apple TV eventually Apple you [TS]

  know caught up and said we're gonna make [TS]

  a little puck shape thing and we're [TS]

  gonna do what everyone else is doing but [TS]

  right now Apple TV is you know it can it [TS]

  main advantages that you play your DRM [TS]

  lock the Apple content but other than [TS]

  that it has no great differentiator for [TS]

  you know besides media login from all [TS]

  the other you know television connected [TS]

  devices and even some Smart TVs can like [TS]

  play netflix just as well as the Apple [TS]

  TV [TS]

  so they iterated an Apple TV room for a [TS]

  long time and it actually took them [TS]

  essentially two tries to even figure out [TS]

  what the correct you know features and [TS]

  and price for for that type of device so [TS]

  I think it's it's not like we're [TS]

  doubting that the home pod will [TS]

  you know be a successful product but I [TS]

  think it is entirely reasonable to give [TS]

  it all the criticism I think it's [TS]

  getting and I think it's entirely [TS]

  reasonable not to expect it to be a [TS]

  breakout success like the iPod and the [TS]

  iPhone at least at least unless it until [TS]

  it comes out with some differentiator in [TS]

  fact if it was it would have you know [TS]

  they always say this like if people [TS]

  aren't making fun of you you're probably [TS]

  not gonna be that successful it if it [TS]

  was more differentiated and did [TS]

  something radically different that would [TS]

  give it probably more potential because [TS]

  like maybe it does maybe that weird [TS]

  thing that it's doing that nobody else [TS]

  is doing is going to be the thing that [TS]

  makes it a great success right but now [TS]

  you look at it it's like it's not doing [TS]

  anything differently anyone else it's [TS]

  doing exactly the same stuff only some [TS]

  of it not as good and that doesn't spell [TS]

  you know massive success it spells ok [TS]

  success right even the watch I would say [TS]

  is much more differentiated and even the [TS]

  watch has taken a while to get going but [TS]

  there was really no other SmartWatch [TS]

  that had the basically the the power and [TS]

  the you know the fashion sense that the [TS]

  Apple watch did on its introduction so [TS]

  even that had more potential upside than [TS]

  the home pod so I think everyone is [TS]

  lukewarm on the home pod for valid [TS]

  reasons ok I mean it's just it's a fair [TS]

  point like I I understand why the email [TS]

  was written I just I don't currently see [TS]

  it as the same and even if home had [TS]

  version 7 is the best speaker that has [TS]

  ever been made I don't think that [TS]

  negates any of the criticisms we have [TS]

  now and I'm trying to think of like what [TS]

  would be a breakout feature like you [TS]

  know it's a feature that doesn't already [TS]

  exist in the Google or Amazon or Sonos [TS]

  product that the home pod could have and [TS]

  you know just because I can't think of [TS]

  one doesn't mean there isn't one there [TS]

  could be one but nothing Apple has [TS]

  announced I think fits that category [TS]

  maybe well I don't know maybe like if [TS]

  the home kit stuff ever takes off apples [TS]

  do a better job of integrating all of [TS]

  our light switches and doorbells and [TS]

  whatever then Amazon currently does but [TS]

  I don't know and you know in the [TS]

  meantime we're all just hoping that home [TS]

  pod catches up that its voice stuff is [TS]

  that being as good as Google and Amazon [TS]

  and that it gets all the capabilities [TS]

  that Apple originally advertised for it [TS]

  in terms of having multiple ones and [TS]

  multi-room audio and all the other [TS]

  things that some of its competitors [TS]

  already have I want one [TS]

  but I know I'm gonna be disappointed by [TS]

  it and so that's why I'm bought one and [TS]

  plus it's what is it three and fifty [TS]

  four hundred dollars like that's it's [TS]

  enough money that's that's not an [TS]

  impulse buy to me and not to say that it [TS]

  is to you to either just for me anyway [TS]

  it's not an impulse buy and and so I I [TS]

  just it's new and shiny and Apple made [TS]

  its that means I should I should have [TS]

  won that's that's the rule that's what [TS]

  they tell me to do that's what uncle Tim [TS]

  tells me to do and I don't know I'll [TS]

  probably get one eventually but sitting [TS]

  here now I just I know it's gonna [TS]

  disappoint me yeah I I really want to [TS]

  want the home pod more you know like [TS]

  like I feel like I'm like on Apple's [TS]

  team for pretty much everything else as [TS]

  much as some people think I'm not I [TS]

  really AM on Apple's team for the most [TS]

  part and and the reason why I sometimes [TS]

  criticism is because I like them so much [TS]

  and because I think they're better than [TS]

  everyone else in industry a lot of stuff [TS]

  but it I really want so badly to love [TS]

  and then buy everything that they make [TS]

  but I can't like the home pod is about [TS]

  70 percent of the way there for me like [TS]

  I need something else I need really good [TS]

  airplay too or I need a reason for [TS]

  overcast to be developing on it which [TS]

  might be airplay to whenever that ships [TS]

  or you I need you know a Siri kid a P I [TS]

  like something's just something give me [TS]

  something else you know close one of [TS]

  these you know open check boxes here [TS]

  that that that are making it you know [TS]

  not quite enough for me [TS]

  ultimately the thing that could really [TS]

  make it awesome for me is if Siri gets a [TS]

  lot better and I'm I think we might be [TS]

  waiting on time for that [TS]

  on the on the audio from the audio [TS]

  quality or even just that did their [TS]

  overall device quality and the [TS]

  integration with the Apple ecosystem [TS]

  home pod has the very easy potential to [TS]

  be the audio : of Apple TV and that [TS]

  there are lots of Apple TV like devices [TS]

  that you can connect to your television [TS]

  they can play like YouTube and Netflix [TS]

  and Hulu [TS]

  you know all the stuff right there's the [TS]

  Apple TV is not the only competitor in [TS]

  that market but a lot of people I know [TS]

  who are in the Apple ecosystem and like [TS]

  fancy Apple stuff instead of having a [TS]

  Roku or fi TV they have Apple TVs and [TS]

  why do they have them is it because [TS]

  Apple TV is fantastically better than [TS]

  fire TV and Roku yes it's better and [TS]

  it's better in ways that Apple nerds [TS]

  care about no trust me it's better I [TS]

  mean I tried like maybe when I was at [TS]

  two years ago when I tried like the all [TS]

  I tried to Roku and a fire TV because I [TS]

  was frustrated with the Apple TV and [TS]

  I'll tell you what the Apple TV drives [TS]

  me crazy but it's bet it's still better [TS]

  than a bunch of them and I think it's [TS]

  the difference is not that big I feel [TS]

  like it's mostly aesthetic I like some [TS]

  of the other remotes better than well [TS]

  yeah [TS]

  but but anyway like Apple TV is more [TS]

  expensive but people buy it because it's [TS]

  the Apple iasts one so home pod easily [TS]

  could get the market for people who want [TS]

  a cylinder they can talk to the plays [TS]

  audio nicely and they're people who are [TS]

  in the Apple ecosystem that are willing [TS]

  to pay a little bit more for a nice [TS]

  looking device that sounds really good [TS]

  like that's the easy market right even [TS]

  if it doesn't do everything the Google [TS]

  home and echo do and you know and you [TS]

  know setting aside sona's for now home [TS]

  pod for sure should get that entire [TS]

  market which is not a small market like [TS]

  that's if it's if it can suddenly be as [TS]

  successful as the Apple TV 4k I think [TS]

  Apple would be OK for that for a 1.0 [TS]

  product right and then they can go from [TS]

  there [TS]

  so I think there is a clear path to [TS]

  okayness for the home pod even without [TS]

  improving anything about it simply [TS]

  because it is nice-looking and it sounds [TS]

  good and it's integrated with the Apple [TS]

  ecosystem and Apple people like you both [TS]

  just said like to buy Apple stuff so I [TS]

  think that's a gimme we are sponsored [TS]

  this week by Squarespace make your next [TS]

  move go to Squarespace calm and use [TS]

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  purchase [TS]

  Squarespace gives you amazing tools that [TS]

  are incredibly easy to use to make [TS]

  websites it's that simple [TS]

  nobody should be hand coding cmss [TS]

  anymore for almost anything at all these [TS]

  days even I hardly ever do it anymore [TS]

  and I've used to love doing that but the [TS]

  fact is Squarespace can give you really [TS]

  beautiful professional websites [TS]

  with incredible features from simple [TS]

  things like you know simple content [TS]

  pages or blogs all the way up to things [TS]

  like storefronts where you're selling [TS]

  digital or physical goods you can embed [TS]

  maps and calendars and widgets and news [TS]

  feeds galleries all these wonderful [TS]

  image carousels you can even host [TS]

  podcast on Squarespace there's so much [TS]

  for you to do there and Squarespace is [TS]

  tools make it incredibly easy to set up [TS]

  pretty much sort of a website you might [TS]

  need whether it's for you or somebody [TS]

  else I highly suggest trying out [TS]

  Squarespace for whatever website you [TS]

  have to create next chances are I bet if [TS]

  you give it one hour you will get so far [TS]

  you'll see how great it is with so [TS]

  little effort you won't go anywhere else [TS]

  and you'll be almost done and if [TS]

  somebody's asking you to make a website [TS]

  for them Squarespace is even better [TS]

  because Squarespace supports at all and [TS]

  host it all so you don't have to do any [TS]

  of that it's wonderful so whether you're [TS]

  whether it's site for you or somebody [TS]

  else [TS]

  check out Squarespace today go to [TS]

  Squarespace comm and you can start a [TS]

  free trial when you when you decide to [TS]

  sign up make sure to use offer code ATP [TS]

  to get 10% off your first purchase make [TS]

  your next move with a wonderful [TS]

  beautiful website from Squarespace let's [TS]

  talk about Siri I have thoughts so this [TS]

  started a couple of weeks ago I was [TS]

  having a conversation with my friend [TS]

  Jamie Pinkham and we were we were [TS]

  talking with a mutual friend of ours and [TS]

  and Jamie had said you know serious [TS]

  terrible but I applaud Apple for [TS]

  sticking to their guns in regard to [TS]

  privacy yeah we all know if they have [TS]

  gathered more info on us it would be [TS]

  better and I thought you know what he's [TS]

  absolutely right and maybe the reason [TS]

  I'm so grumpy about Siri is because [TS]

  Apple isn't just you know for going and [TS]

  issuing I think that's how you pronounce [TS]

  Lord of shewing you know privacy they're [TS]

  doing what I would want them to do which [TS]

  is to do the right thing and keep new [TS]

  user privacy at the forefront and you [TS]

  know if their product is a little crummy [TS]

  or because of it then so be it but then [TS]

  I got thinking about it a little bit [TS]

  more and it occurred to me but Siri [TS]

  still sucks for a lot of things that [TS]

  have nothing to do with my data like did [TS]

  I tell the story on the show I think I [TS]

  about asking when the the UVA Tech game [TS]

  basketball game was and I'd asked for [TS]

  like you know when is the Cavaliers game [TS]

  on and it wanted to show me the [TS]

  Cleveland Cavaliers okay fine and then I [TS]

  asked like when it's the Hokie game on [TS]

  and they was I don't know okay when are [TS]

  the Hokies and Cavaliers playing each [TS]

  other [TS]

  yeah the they played each other six [TS]

  months ago here's the score okay what [TS]

  time is the Hokie basketball game oh [TS]

  it's totally tonight at six o'clock why [TS]

  do you ask like it's just in and that's [TS]

  the thing that's so frustrating well one [TS]

  of the things that's so frustrating to [TS]

  me is that yeah I think Jamie was right [TS]

  that in and of itself this things could [TS]

  be a lot better or or you know Syria [TS]

  would be more knowledgeable [TS]

  if privacy wasn't as big a deal you know [TS]

  if so much more of this stuff could be [TS]

  crunched server side like if my entire [TS]

  calendar was server side if all of my [TS]

  email was server side and by that I mean [TS]

  Apple could read all of it in so many [TS]

  ways I feel like Siri could be so much [TS]

  better and I respect Apple I truly and [TS]

  honestly respect Apple for making their [TS]

  product by most arguments worse by not [TS]

  cutting that corner because I think that [TS]

  that that's better for me even though [TS]

  the product on the whole is worse but [TS]

  can you get like an actor's name right I [TS]

  was in in and even just basic dictation [TS]

  so I went for a run yesterday and it's [TS]

  one point to the ride my iPods and I'm [TS]

  all I'm on my Apple watch my Apple watch [TS]

  with LTE connection which I don't know [TS]

  if you've ever heard I'm a little grumpy [TS]

  about but here be that as it may I'm on [TS]

  my ear pods Apple watch I am panting to [TS]

  be fair but I if I had held down the [TS]

  crown on the Apple watch so it would [TS]

  listen to me because I've hey Siri [TS]

  alright no actually he Syria doesn't [TS]

  work with the air pods but I don't have [TS]

  the the double tap to kick on Siri [TS]

  because I prefer to do it differently I [TS]

  prefer the double tap to do different [TS]

  things so I hold down the crown on the [TS]

  watch I hear the beep beep and I said [TS]

  something to the effect of like remind [TS]

  me to open a 529 savings account for [TS]

  Makayla and holy God I wish I had [TS]

  recorded what it had come up with in the [TS]

  defense of Siri I was panting this was [TS]

  like two-thirds of the way through my [TS]

  run but it came up with like something [TS]

  that was barely intelligible I was able [TS]

  to piece it together [TS]

  after the fact but it was hilarious how [TS]

  bad the transcription was and all it was [TS]

  was a reminder like this shouldn't in [TS]

  theory have been that complex then I get [TS]

  home and I decide I wanted to listen to [TS]

  you some probably got off on me as I got [TS]

  or even remember what it was and so I'm [TS]

  in front of my garage I'm on my driveway [TS]

  my phone was sitting in my kitchen now [TS]

  Marco you've seen the house and we are [TS]

  talking 20 feet maybe from the from [TS]

  basically the garage door to the kitchen [TS]

  and to be fair there's a couple of walls [TS]

  including an exterior wall between me [TS]

  and my phone but probably a lot of [TS]

  Tito's and Villita shells and cheese [TS]

  naturally and so I you know said you [TS]

  know hey can you play me the latest [TS]

  album by yo mute math or something like [TS]

  that I don't remember exactly what it [TS]

  was and then I see hold on again this is [TS]

  on my watch now I have plenty of Wi-Fi [TS]

  coverage at this point but it appears [TS]

  that's not good enough [TS]

  hold on I'll tap you when I'm ready yeah [TS]

  series not available sorry about that [TS]

  and it's like come on no maybe that [TS]

  isn't I guess strictly speaking that's [TS]

  not serious like that's just a general [TS]

  connectivity because that's well I mean [TS]

  is it or is it like is it a local [TS]

  failure or a server failure either way [TS]

  it's kind of serious problem like if [TS]

  your watch should be connected you know [TS]

  like if it's in an area where it has [TS]

  good coverage it should be connected I [TS]

  mean I have plenty of LTE although I [TS]

  don't I did look and it was not on LTE [TS]

  at the time I plenty of LTE though so [TS]

  hypothetically it could should have fall [TS]

  back - fall back fell back to LTE I [TS]

  certainly was well within my Wi-Fi [TS]

  coverage without question I was in with [TS]

  within Wi-Fi coverage and yet it insists [TS]

  on going I think to the phone because [TS]

  you know when I did the swipe up to get [TS]

  the little control center thing I saw a [TS]

  phone icon in the upper left and it was [TS]

  insistent on going to the phone which [TS]

  you have itself as a first stop okay [TS]

  fine I'm okay with that but can you not [TS]

  fall back onto something else and [TS]

  whatever I was trying to play was [TS]

  something that I had night UNS match so [TS]

  this sure to have like the way I [TS]

  expected it to work is that maybe it [TS]

  would have tried the phone and then [TS]

  given up when it wasn't too strong [TS]

  enough connection or whatever and then [TS]

  just gone via either Wi-Fi [TS]

  LTE and asked you know Apple hey what [TS]

  did Casey just say oh he wants to listen [TS]

  to the latest out of my new math okay so [TS]

  does he have anything by yo mute math [TS]

  and iTunes Oh indeed he does here's what [TS]

  you should play and it should work and [TS]

  it's just these little failures are [TS]

  happening all the friggin time and it's [TS]

  to the point that I feel like I cannot [TS]

  communicate with my phone verbally I [TS]

  cannot communicate with my phone by [TS]

  typing on my phone because that's become [TS]

  a disaster so I just I feel like the [TS]

  only device that I have that I can input [TS]

  any text into with any efficacy is my [TS]

  Mac and it's driving me insane but [TS]

  better hope it's not the MacBook [TS]

  keyboard actually my psyche there's a [TS]

  little bit crunchy today it's not too [TS]

  happy about that I was able to mash on [TS]

  and get whatever you know microscopic [TS]

  speck of dust was out of the way I did [TS]

  not need to return to work the can of [TS]

  compressed air that I kid you not I [TS]

  bought specifically for my macbook I [TS]

  hadn't had a can of compressed air in [TS]

  the house and like ten years but but but [TS]

  I needed I think a lot of the [TS]

  frustration here is like like it's like [TS]

  I mentioned I think last show or or [TS]

  maybe it was on my seventeen our talk [TS]

  show last week or whatever it was and I [TS]

  mentioned that I that like you know when [TS]

  I first got the Amazon echo it was the [TS]

  you know after years of like kind of you [TS]

  know passively trying to use Siri and [TS]

  have it fail a lot of the time and just [TS]

  kind of be frustrated about it it was [TS]

  striking to me how reliable the Amazon [TS]

  echo was in in and how quickly it would [TS]

  answer me and and you know in part this [TS]

  is kind of not a straight comparison [TS]

  because the Amazon echo is stationary [TS]

  plugged in all the time listening all [TS]

  the time for the wake word at least and [TS]

  is in a controlled environment it's [TS]

  always in the same spot and there are [TS]

  like you know acoustic things that can [TS]

  happen like for instance I mentioned [TS]

  earlier like when when my range hood fan [TS]

  is on on the stove it creates like you [TS]

  know a good deal of fairly broadband [TS]

  white noise and the echo just can't hear [TS]

  anything anymore like even if it's even [TS]

  if humans can hear over it just fine [TS]

  like sir [TS]

  types of noise that are in the room the [TS]

  echo just seems to really hear very [TS]

  badly if those noises are present but [TS]

  but otherwise like the echo is pretty [TS]

  reliable but again that's because it's [TS]

  in one place plugged in all the time [TS]

  listening for the wake where all the [TS]

  time and has a stable connection like it [TS]

  can remain connected the network it [TS]

  doesn't have to it doesn't have to Power [TS]

  Save and drop itself off the Wi-Fi when [TS]

  it's not necessary is stuff like that so [TS]

  there are it this is not not a straight [TS]

  comparison here to your watch situation [TS]

  which was very possibly affected by [TS]

  connectivity and power saving stuff but [TS]

  that being said like you know the the [TS]

  the way the error rates of these things [TS]

  work suppose the echo hears me 95 [TS]

  percent of the time and Siri hears me 90 [TS]

  percent of the time that still means [TS]

  Siri fails twice as often and so as you [TS]

  get closer to these higher number you [TS]

  know it's very same same math when you [TS]

  talk about cache hit rates you have the [TS]

  same problem like like you know it seems [TS]

  like my like when when one of my cache [TS]

  servers is down then about you know [TS]

  eight percent of hits will miss but that [TS]

  also means that my databases are then [TS]

  serving like five times as many hits [TS]

  because the hit rate is usually so high [TS]

  so like you know you'll see a huge spike [TS]

  in load on the databases for what seems [TS]

  like a small difference in the cache hit [TS]

  rate so this is you know it's similar [TS]

  problem here with like you know for Siri [TS]

  to get like competitive and better in [TS]

  this way it needs to get what's it needs [TS]

  to dramatically reduce its error rate [TS]

  and its failure rate and Apple might [TS]

  think it's really good if you know if [TS]

  Apple has data on this which I'm sure [TS]

  they do you know they might see it as [TS]

  somewhere being in the 80s or 90s and [TS]

  think that's great but the competition [TS]

  is even better than that and the [TS]

  difference can still be seen and felt [TS]

  pretty pretty regularly [TS]

  I would love so much for Siri to improve [TS]

  at the same rate as Apple's hardware and [TS]

  software usually improves but it's been [TS]

  here a while and we haven't seen that so [TS]

  I I don't think anybody should [TS]

  reasonably anticipate that that's going [TS]

  to happen now like all of a sudden you [TS]

  see you're gonna start getting better at [TS]

  a rapid pace [TS]

  I don't know like they have this they [TS]

  have the home pod which depends very [TS]

  heavily on Siri so you might think [TS]

  that's great motivation but I think the [TS]

  iPhone for the last 70 [TS]

  there's also pretty good motivation and [TS]

  they haven't done that so you know I [TS]

  don't it just it doesn't seem like it's [TS]

  really a core competency of Apple to [TS]

  make really good AI based big data [TS]

  services like this and and you know a [TS]

  lot of people lean on the privacy thing [TS]

  and Apple to some reason or to some [TS]

  degree also kind of leans on the privacy [TS]

  angle it almost as an excuse of why it [TS]

  has to be this way and I think that's [TS]

  not a valid argument you know I think [TS]

  the the privacy aspect of the way Apple [TS]

  does things is nice and and there's [TS]

  merit to that there's value to that I'm [TS]

  glad they do that but that does not [TS]

  preclude them from making really good [TS]

  services in this area [TS]

  it just doesn't it's two it's two [TS]

  separate things yes if they had more [TS]

  data if they if they were more creepy [TS]

  with letting stuff certain types of [TS]

  certain services could get better but [TS]

  Apple makes a lot of services that could [TS]

  get better with what they already have [TS]

  and they don't or they don't get better [TS]

  enough so I don't think that Apple has [TS]

  to give up privacy to make great [TS]

  services conversely I don't think the [TS]

  privacy is the reason their services in [TS]

  some of these areas are not great I [TS]

  think that's a convenient excuse for [TS]

  people who don't really understand how [TS]

  to make these services very well but [TS]

  otherwise it's that's not the reality [TS]

  the reality is these services can get [TS]

  way better with the amount of [TS]

  information that they already do or [TS]

  don't collect I don't think Apple is [TS]

  culturally and structurally set up to [TS]

  make really great services of this type [TS]

  I think they have proven that yeah and [TS]

  that's exactly my point when I was [TS]

  bringing up what Jamie had said of you [TS]

  is that there's so much that has nothing [TS]

  to do with privacy like okay fine maybe [TS]

  if Siri saw that I was sitting in [TS]

  Virginia when I was asking about to [TS]

  Virginia colleges playing each other [TS]

  maybe it could have narrowed down a [TS]

  little bit more but either way I don't [TS]

  think that would have made a tremendous [TS]

  difference and okay even if that would [TS]

  have made a difference then what happens [TS]

  when I'm using Siri is like a front end [TS]

  IMDB like I think it was John had [TS]

  mentioned earlier you know I want to [TS]

  know about who's acting in the movie I'm [TS]

  watching or the TV show I'm watching [TS]

  like Siri falls all over its face on [TS]

  that half the time and that has nothing [TS]

  to do with any [TS]

  thing except I guess if it was listening [TS]

  to what I was watching which is even [TS]

  creepy enough that I don't think Google [TS]

  does that sort of thing so you know what [TS]

  I mean like there's so much that it that [TS]

  has nothing to do with privacy and this [TS]

  is what I was saying originally what [TS]

  Marco is saying now just a moment ago it [TS]

  there's so much that is beyond this and [TS]

  I I just it's frustrating and I wanna I [TS]

  want to see it get better and I'm [TS]

  frustrated that it's not getting better [TS]

  especially since unlike you know the [TS]

  annual release cycles for Mac OS and iOS [TS]

  which we hopefully talked about this [TS]

  episode I I don't understand why this [TS]

  isn't getting better faster except [TS]

  perhaps just in in Marco you said this a [TS]

  moment ago you know a corporate culture [TS]

  that that doesn't that isn't conducive [TS]

  to it I'd like to generalize this from [TS]

  from Syria specifically to these voices [TS]

  since in general this is just to [TS]

  reiterate some what Marco just said and [TS]

  what he said on this topic many times I [TS]

  think we all talked about in the past I [TS]

  think it's actually analogous to the [TS]

  iPhone which I'm thinking about because [TS]

  we had that earlier feedback about it [TS]

  [Music] [TS]

  that it's Marco talked about the the [TS]

  percentage differences in the gaps and [TS]

  like so you know if the competing [TS]

  products are this good and Siri is that [TS]

  good even if Siri is improving there's [TS]

  still a gap between it but I think the [TS]

  important part of those hypothetical [TS]

  numbers is that like the original iPhone [TS]

  there is a there's a threshold on one [TS]

  side the same interface is not [TS]

  acceptable on the other side of that [TS]

  threshold you pass into the realm of [TS]

  acceptability the iPhone was one of the [TS]

  first mass-market devices to cross that [TS]

  threshold for touch input on a screen [TS]

  the touch screen which touch screens was [TS]

  existed forever and people generally [TS]

  hated suddenly got responsive enough so [TS]

  that you know it wasn't just like oh [TS]

  this is like 1% better it crossed over [TS]

  all aligned right and suddenly it was [TS]

  good enough and they've gotten way [TS]

  better since then right but it was so [TS]

  clear that this is the first device that [TS]

  that is good enough that regular people [TS]

  will use the touchscreen and not just [TS]

  fine you know they like they won't hate [TS]

  it it'll it'll feel good it'll feel [TS]

  it'll feel like they're directly [TS]

  manipulating the things on the screen [TS]

  right for the cylinders that you talk to [TS]

  the essential that they're there is the [TS]

  same line and Amazon cross that a long [TS]

  time ago and it's this a couple of [TS]

  aspects one is this got to hear you [TS]

  right - is it has to know what the hell [TS]

  you're asking me about and three is it [TS]

  has to do it fast right and the [TS]

  combination of those three things [TS]

  produces a feedback cycle for people who [TS]

  use the echo that builds confidence the [TS]

  first time you use it you're impressed [TS]

  that even understood what you mumbled [TS]

  then you're impressed that it did like [TS]

  it could do the thing that you asked for [TS]

  and then I think with the echo you're [TS]

  impressed that it did it so quickly like [TS]

  you feel like you barely had the words [TS]

  out of your mouth and it's setting your [TS]

  timer doing whatever telling you what [TS]

  time it is are telling you the weather [TS]

  it just seems so fast and when that [TS]

  happens that the threshold that it [TS]

  crosses like the utility threshold of [TS]

  like this is an appliance and it's no [TS]

  longer a computer thing where I just you [TS]

  know cross my fingers and hope that [TS]

  something cool and computery works just [TS]

  becomes part of your day right even if [TS]

  it has limitations like oh I just know [TS]

  it can't hear me with the rangehood on [TS]

  right there this is parameters to it you [TS]

  know if you know that's the case that's [TS]

  bad and Amazon should improve that but [TS]

  it's not like on some days when it's [TS]

  raining you can't hear me and then on [TS]

  Thursdays sometimes doesn't hear me [TS]

  right like you crossed that threshold [TS]

  where it becomes reliable and there are [TS]

  so many things that we could talk to [TS]

  including Siri and lots of other things [TS]

  that have some kind of voice interface [TS]

  that do not cross that threshold and so [TS]

  you you give up on them you don't use [TS]

  them or use them for an extremely narrow [TS]

  you know set of things and in particular [TS]

  circumstances now I think the home pod [TS]

  has actually crossed some of those [TS]

  thresholds for Apple I think the home [TS]

  Bob can hear me really really well I may [TS]

  be able to hear me better than any other [TS]

  device on the market not better enough [TS]

  perhaps to make a difference because in [TS]

  general the I'm still amazed at how well [TS]

  the Google home could hear me and I've [TS]

  seen other people talk to their echoes [TS]

  from far distances and it seems to work [TS]

  pretty well but the home pot I think [TS]

  crosses the threshold for can it hear me [TS]

  it does not cross the threshold for does [TS]

  that understand what I'm asking for [TS]

  because still many times it will neither [TS]

  know [TS]

  do what I think it should do or the same [TS]

  command will get different results [TS]

  command will get different results [TS]

  and it also I think doesn't cross the [TS]

  threshold as I mentioned before for [TS]

  responding quickly enough when I tell it [TS]

  to stop playing music I know it hears me [TS]

  I know it understands what I want to do [TS]

  and it does it but it does it a little [TS]

  bit more slowly than I would like slowly [TS]

  enough that it makes me it gives me that [TS]

  millisecond of doubt whether it's doing [TS]

  it it doesn't create that that feedback [TS]

  cycle where I'm like oh now I feel like [TS]

  I have a voice connection to an off [TS]

  switch [TS]

  right in the same way that whenever [TS]

  Marco says like turn everything off and [TS]

  is downstairs that it turns everything [TS]

  off you get used to it doing that right [TS]

  then you don't get you don't expect it [TS]

  to have like a little spinner light [TS]

  going spin spin spin spin okay I'll turn [TS]

  off your lights that's too long that [TS]

  doesn't create the feedback cycle so I'm [TS]

  not sure exactly what values those lines [TS]

  are at but I can tell that certain [TS]

  devices are over in certain devices or [TS]

  not and I think home pod with the [TS]

  advancement of its of its audio output [TS]

  and input has crossed over a bunch of [TS]

  those lines but it's still a couple [TS]

  things lagged behind and you really got [TS]

  to get everything over the line kind of [TS]

  like the original iPhone did to sort of [TS]

  enter the game to enter the realm of [TS]

  devices that regular people will use [TS]

  routinely day after day and stop [TS]

  thinking about as a tech gadget and [TS]

  start thinking about as an appliance [TS]

  that you just expect to work all the [TS]

  time yeah we're a long way from there [TS]

  unfortunately but not for the other [TS]

  cylinders Casey should get a Google home [TS]

  right now with an echo I actually have [TS]

  an Amazon echo on its way to me right [TS]

  now [TS]

  really wait what sorry I bury the lead [TS]

  actually yes so a friend of mine Justin [TS]

  Williams he might know from Glassport [TS]

  among other things he was getting rid of [TS]

  his echo and said to me you know rather [TS]

  than trying to figure out you know who [TS]

  to sell it to you know if I covered [TS]

  postage he would send it my way [TS]

  and so I baked ashed him the cost to [TS]

  send it from him to me and it'll be here [TS]

  sometime next week [TS]

  probably after we record actually so [TS]

  you're not gonna hear any more about [TS]

  this for a couple of weeks at least I [TS]

  still don't have any particular interest [TS]

  in having an echo in my house but since [TS]

  almost everyone I know has one in almost [TS]

  everyone I know loves them I'm curious [TS]

  to see what'll happen with it but start [TS]

  asking kitchen questions or putting in [TS]

  TV room and start asking me TV questions [TS]

  by the way I can't test the home pod on [TS]

  we questions I asked it who was the star [TS]

  of a movie that's out now and I asked it [TS]

  when a movie was released and I did both [TS]

  of them in just the first way that [TS]

  occurred to me the you know questions [TS]

  that I have a good comparison to possess [TS]

  my Google things all the time for the [TS]

  who stars in the movie it it more or [TS]

  less got it it basically read me a web [TS]

  page but it read me the relevant portion [TS]

  of the web page and it read me like [TS]

  seven of the people that are in the [TS]

  movie and then asked me if I want to [TS]

  read the next two as well so it didn't [TS]

  get like who the star was I think [TS]

  there's an obvious answer like one [TS]

  person but it it read the cast it didn't [TS]

  read me that the title on the rating saw [TS]

  I give it that one but it definitely [TS]

  sounded like I found this on the web [TS]

  about blah blah blah which is not as [TS]

  direct as when I asked the question of [TS]

  Google it just tells me straight up I [TS]

  asked if the release date and it was [TS]

  verbose about it it said the movie XYZ [TS]

  was released on you know January 12th [TS]

  but it got the right answer so I you [TS]

  know I don't know if home pod has gotten [TS]

  better about that then Siri mostly I'm [TS]

  just enjoying the fact that I find it so [TS]

  much more reliably able to hear me I [TS]

  hate using Syria I don't you have my [TS]

  watch I don't where am i watch it all [TS]

  the time but I hate using Siri on my [TS]

  phone because I activate it and I never [TS]

  know if it went safe for me to start [TS]

  talking and almost all the time I you [TS]

  know hold down the home button and like [TS]

  the little Siri thing appears on the [TS]

  screen and I say whatever I want to say [TS]

  right and I see the little waveform move [TS]

  and while I'm talking it goes boo boo [TS]

  loop that is exactly and then I'm like [TS]

  well maybe it maybe it heard me anyway [TS]

  so I finished what I'm saying [TS]

  and it just stares at me and says how [TS]

  can I help you you moved your waveform [TS]

  in response to my speaking it's clear [TS]

  that the audio was entering into the [TS]

  system and you know jiggling but and so [TS]

  I always have to end up saying [TS]

  everything twice and I hate that it [TS]

  makes me feel dumb and it's not a good [TS]

  interaction if I wait for the bloop I [TS]

  feel like I'm waiting there forever but [TS]

  now now is it okay for me to talk it's [TS]

  the worst talking to a cylinder is so [TS]

  much better I don't care if it's ready [TS]

  for me I just start talking and the home [TS]

  pod definitely passes that test you know [TS]

  not once they did not hear me not once [TS]

  did it you know but bloop at me or do [TS]

  anything or interrupt me in any way I [TS]

  was able to say what I wanted to say and [TS]

  it was able to [TS]

  do what I wanted to do so you know [TS]

  excited I think home pod definitely [TS]

  crosses some thresholds that previously [TS]

  hadn't been crossed by any Apple product [TS]

  we are sponsored this week by betterment [TS]

  rethink what your money can do visit [TS]

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  betterment comm slash ATP that's [TS]

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  rethink what your money can do we got [TS]

  word and not us three specifically just [TS]

  in general there was word spread a [TS]

  couple of weeks ago I think that Apple [TS]

  is going to pull a Snow Leopard [TS]

  but for real this time like we really [TS]

  mean it this time [TS]

  for realsies pinkie swear there's an [TS]

  article in Bloomberg that said Apple is [TS]

  going to kind of pump the brakes [TS]

  and it's going to well the the headline [TS]

  is how Apple plans to root out bugs and [TS]

  revamp iPhone software so there's a [TS]

  quote that one of you pulled for my [TS]

  convenience so thank you quote instead [TS]

  of keeping engineers on a relentless [TS]

  annual schedule and cramming features [TS]

  into a single update Apple will start [TS]

  focusing on the next two years of [TS]

  updates for its iPhone and iPad [TS]

  operating system according to people [TS]

  familiar with the change the company [TS]

  will continue to update its software [TS]

  annually but internally engineers will [TS]

  have more discretion to push back [TS]

  features that aren't as polished to the [TS]

  following year I don't know where to [TS]

  start with this other than to say that [TS]

  if this really is true sitting here now [TS]

  anyway this sounds magical this sounds [TS]

  like you know the the the glass of ice [TS]

  water in hell and that's not to say that [TS]

  things are that bad by any stretch but [TS]

  what I mean is I really think that Apple [TS]

  could stand to kind of pump the brakes [TS]

  on new features and just work on [TS]

  hardening things and I think that the [TS]

  three of us are amongst many voices that [TS]

  have been saying the same and when we [TS]

  were doing Jason Snell's end-of-year [TS]

  recap in survey or whatever he called it [TS]

  we'll put a link in the show notes one [TS]

  of the things that struck me as I was [TS]

  reflecting on some of the things he'd [TS]

  asked about like software quality is [TS]

  that over the past year so during 2017 I [TS]

  had had a lot of my like family members [TS]

  and you know so most of my friends are [TS]

  kind of pretty big nerds but most of my [TS]

  family members are not and I had had [TS]

  some family members say to me in so many [TS]

  words holy crap this Apple stuff never [TS]

  works anymore what happened to it just [TS]

  working and that that really struck me [TS]

  and and I mentioned that to Jason I [TS]

  think he actually used that in the [TS]

  report card and it seems like it's time [TS]

  that the perception anyway whether or [TS]

  not it's reality the perception is and [TS]

  I'm very much in this camp that software [TS]

  quality's really kind of taking a turn [TS]

  for the worse so it's it's easy to blame [TS]

  the relentless speed of new features for [TS]

  maybe that being the problem maybe that [TS]

  maybe that's just that they need to not [TS]

  be not have a litany of new features to [TS]

  release every WWC [TS]

  so perhaps slowing down on new and shiny [TS]

  will give everyone time to improve the [TS]

  old end well busted but I don't know [TS]

  it's it's hard because I've worked in [TS]

  big software companies but not quite [TS]

  this big John you can be the adult in [TS]

  the room as you always are so I'll come [TS]

  to you now is Marco Marco how do you [TS]

  feel about this first let's have the [TS]

  children discussing you and me are at [TS]

  the kiddie table [TS]

  and Thanksgiving so let's let's talk [TS]

  amongst ourselves Marco already talked [TS]

  about this for an hour in another [TS]

  podcast now I ever had this time to [TS]

  listen that I known as the time well I [TS]

  was trying to figure out so thank you [TS]

  all right so anyway so can you give us [TS]

  the chief summarizer and chief version [TS]

  then of that argument yeah basically [TS]

  this is great to hear I'm I'm happy that [TS]

  this you know and you know this seems [TS]

  like it has multiple sources and [TS]

  everything it's a probe it probably [TS]

  happened this this meeting or this [TS]

  change but I don't think it really means [TS]

  much of anything yet it's very much show [TS]

  you like ok that sounds promising let's [TS]

  see what happens you know let's wait and [TS]

  see what the actual results of this are [TS]

  I do think that the the annual schedule [TS]

  of heavy feature filled releases on [TS]

  almost all their platforms has been a [TS]

  significant contributor to the recent [TS]

  quality issues you know I just I don't [TS]

  think there I don't I think from a [TS]

  little bit we've heard here and there it [TS]

  really does seem like they don't have [TS]

  they don't devote enough time to bug [TS]

  fixing and refinement before the [TS]

  engineers on most of these projects have [TS]

  to go to the next thing I have to build [TS]

  the next the next marketing features [TS]

  build the next headlining features or [TS]

  you know get to the next major version [TS]

  like there there's not a lot of time in [TS]

  an annual cycle for refinement and bug [TS]

  fixes and so if indeed they're moving to [TS]

  a two-year cycle for major efforts like [TS]

  and this isn't saying that they're gonna [TS]

  like only release iOS every two years or [TS]

  whatever it's just like you know major [TS]

  features will now take will now be [TS]

  allowed to take two years that's that [TS]

  sounds good [TS]

  I don't know how different that is from [TS]

  how it has been though I mean we know [TS]

  you know certain things like a PFS like [TS]

  that wasn't that didn't take one year [TS]

  like that was like major features have [TS]

  always been allowed to take more than a [TS]

  year but you know [TS]

  it's I don't I don't know what exactly [TS]

  this is allegedly changing and I think [TS]

  we're not really going to know whether [TS]

  it's you know working or whether it's [TS]

  having a real effect for probably a [TS]

  couple years like we're gonna have to [TS]

  just see how the software evolved over [TS]

  the next couple of years and kind of see [TS]

  like it doesn't seem better now or not [TS]

  I've been in a lot of big software [TS]

  companies and over the years I've seen [TS]

  III can't speak to what it's like inside [TS]

  Apple but I have to think that it's not [TS]

  so incredibly different from other large [TS]

  companies especially these days and the [TS]

  thing that happens in companies to do [TS]

  stuff with software or technology in [TS]

  general and probably in any companies [TS]

  that the higher you go up the the [TS]

  management chain the more the incentives [TS]

  are structured for those people to make [TS]

  it seem like things are going well and [TS]

  to themselves believe that things are [TS]

  going well but eventually something will [TS]

  happen that ripples alway up the entire [TS]

  org chart that you know me from down at [TS]

  the bottom of the org chart I always saw [TS]

  those those unfortunate things that [TS]

  happened as opportunities that must be [TS]

  seized upon by those in the lower ranks [TS]

  because that's your chance to say you [TS]

  people higher up have thought [TS]

  everything's been great but we've been [TS]

  down here telling you that X is really a [TS]

  problem and now those chickens are come [TS]

  home to roost [TS]

  so let's hell you know come together and [TS]

  have a discussion about how we're gonna [TS]

  change things right and this cycle just [TS]

  repeats itself like it never never [TS]

  actually like fixes all your problems [TS]

  but basically you know you gather [TS]

  together you say we're gonna change how [TS]

  we do things in a way that will prevent [TS]

  things like this from happening and you [TS]

  do it like you make the actual change [TS]

  you change procedures you reorganize [TS]

  people you change priorities you do you [TS]

  know almost exactly the same thing to [TS]

  talk about here you know lengthen [TS]

  schedules give people who are closer to [TS]

  the actual work more authority to push [TS]

  back on deadlines or I do you stop [TS]

  setting unrealistic internal deadlines [TS]

  just so some middle manager can get a [TS]

  bonus this year like you do all that [TS]

  stuff right and it works like it's not [TS]

  like it doesn't work it works like you [TS]

  make things better [TS]

  there are the countervailing forces of [TS]

  things slowing down and everything also [TS]

  happened but then it just builds back up [TS]

  again you get into a happy place again [TS]

  and then you know get the same incentive [TS]

  structures cause people to press hard [TS]

  and set aggressive internal deadlines [TS]

  and fear of competition makes you add [TS]

  lots of features and so on and so forth [TS]

  and you get it and then another crisis [TS]

  happens and people seize on it and like [TS]

  this is just a cycle of any large group [TS]

  of people doing things and that's not [TS]

  stay I'm not trying to be like cynical [TS]

  about it I agree with marco and almost [TS]

  everyone else has looked at this is like [TS]

  yes this is exactly what we want Apple [TS]

  to do and I really believe that a [TS]

  they're really gonna do it and be that [TS]

  it will really help right [TS]

  I think this same cycle has happened [TS]

  inside Apple many times in the past and [TS]

  it will happen many times in the future [TS]

  and I just think we're kind of in you [TS]

  know in like a downswing that hopefully [TS]

  is about to take a turn into an upswing [TS]

  so I see it as positive and like there's [TS]

  an entire industry around like how to [TS]

  not go through this you know roller [TS]

  coaster cycle and how to you know get [TS]

  sustainable growth and just do great [TS]

  things for ever and ever and it's just a [TS]

  constant struggle to get any larger [TS]

  group of people to do that maybe Apple [TS]

  that's another topic we won't get to [TS]

  today but like you know people have [TS]

  rose-colored glasses about the whatever [TS]

  they think the heyday of Apple was and [TS]

  how well it was able to execute during [TS]

  those times and I think we will talk [TS]

  about that on a future show but in [TS]

  general this this quality focused thing [TS]

  I think is positive real and we'll have [TS]

  real results but we'll find ourselves [TS]

  back yet here in about ten years at [TS]

  minimum or a maximum rather and that's [TS]

  just the nature of the beast and we just [TS]

  need to learn to learn to write it out [TS]

  so I'm I'm optimistic I you know what I [TS]

  keep saying i optimistic until I see [TS]

  what they do with the Mac Pro because if [TS]

  they disappoint me though they're all [TS]

  really crushed me but I think I may be [TS]

  unique in that regard well but and the [TS]

  Mac Pro is actually a really good you [TS]

  know thing to mention here it's like [TS]

  they told us directly like officially on [TS]

  the record that they're working on a [TS]

  great new Mac Pro that this you know [TS]

  that our Mac Pro problem will be solved [TS]

  and honestly half of us I think our Mac [TS]

  Pro problem was solved by the iMac Pro [TS]

  it's pretty great [TS]

  but like you know but for like the the [TS]

  you know the modular upgradable tower [TS]

  or module upgradeable Mac Pro I don't [TS]

  know if Tuvia tower that's still a giant [TS]

  unknown they said they promised it will [TS]

  be better but until it actually comes [TS]

  out we don't know that it will be better [TS]

  and so like it's like great uh we know [TS]

  that was great talk to get but we [TS]

  haven't seen the actions yet so we can't [TS]

  really say whether that's you know an [TS]

  actual positive thing or not and and [TS]

  this one more minor point is that we've [TS]

  talked about this in the past as well [TS]

  it's particularly for the Mac where like [TS]

  the phone obviously they're still doing [TS]

  great in the phone and they have fierce [TS]

  competition in the phone right so I bet [TS]

  they're gonna still be running pretty [TS]

  hard on the phone front and so far they [TS]

  have been running hard they've been [TS]

  chipping good phones so good on them [TS]

  right so obviously the highest priority [TS]

  to do a good job on it you know I don't [TS]

  expect that to change that much the OS [TS]

  that runs in the phone you know the push [TS]

  features out here and there I think [TS]

  they've they don't feel as much pressure [TS]

  from the competition as they did back [TS]

  when they had really you know back when [TS]

  Android was just so far ahead of them in [TS]

  terms of notifications and stuff and [TS]

  multitasking and stuff like that I think [TS]

  that you know it's it's a closer race [TS]

  now but the Mac the the fantasy [TS]

  opportunity that the low-level engineers [TS]

  would love to seize upon us like boy [TS]

  imagine if we could have you know sets [TS]

  of people permanently responsible to for [TS]

  every important part of the system and [TS]

  those people's just sat there and drain [TS]

  their bug queues and like improve [TS]

  performance and test coverage and drain [TS]

  their bug queues for like three years to [TS]

  make and why would you do that how can [TS]

  you afford to do that because the max [TS]

  competition is not moving as fast as the [TS]

  the phones in the tablets competition [TS]

  right [TS]

  not as much action is happening down [TS]

  there and if you're trying to try to [TS]

  find a role for the Mac in the company [TS]

  it could one possibility as we discussed [TS]

  and shows in the past is it to make it [TS]

  the super reliable bulletproof [TS]

  industrial-grade you know never crashes [TS]

  never does the wrong thing just does [TS]

  what it's supposed to do [TS]

  reliably make that the reputation of the [TS]

  Mac make it seem you know you're in [TS]

  exchange for boringness and for slightly [TS]

  slower or perhaps you know much slower [TS]

  rate of change you get massive [TS]

  reliability so staff up the Mac teams [TS]

  drain those bug queues improve your test [TS]

  coverage improve performance and memory [TS]

  usage and all those that [TS]

  of things you know this is assuming [TS]

  there's no major components still need [TS]

  to be written because there may still be [TS]

  things lurking in there and then do that [TS]

  for a couple of years to restore the max [TS]

  reputation and to make it more [TS]

  attractive to the people who are most [TS]

  likely to use the Mac before you go on [TS]

  to the next cycle whatever that is the [TS]

  marzipan thing and now it's time for the [TS]

  Mac take its next evolution time to get [TS]

  radical again I don't think that will [TS]

  happen but that is one way that you know [TS]

  were the were the people who seized on [TS]

  this opportunity able to really seize on [TS]

  it I'm sure that's the dream of lots of [TS]

  low level people who work on the Mac and [TS]

  who are sick of ignoring your bugs [TS]

  justice you are sick of them ignoring [TS]

  them I mean this is definitely a good [TS]

  thing I don't see any way we can spin it [TS]

  as a bad thing but fast forward to what [TS]

  episode are we on like 265 fast word [TS]

  episode I don't know 3:10 but Phenom I'm [TS]

  excited about this as much as I'm I'm [TS]

  joking around I'm really excited about [TS]

  this I think this is a good sign that [TS]

  that Apple's seeing we're seeing and [TS]

  it's also tough too because you know we [TS]

  don't get to see all the like I don't [TS]

  know if analytics is the right word for [TS]

  it but like the analytics data that that [TS]

  Apple sees and they may see that that [TS]

  you know hard crashes and software are [TS]

  trending down over the years and and I [TS]

  think that that that very well could be [TS]

  true but it seems to me that it's the [TS]

  kind of Wiggly stuff that's that's [TS]

  really been letting us down lately like [TS]

  Siri just not working when you want it [TS]

  to for example let alone just you know [TS]

  answering the question incorrectly I [TS]

  don't know it's tough and it's it's I [TS]

  don't know what to make of it but no [TS]

  Steven Sinofsky is that how I pronounce [TS]

  that I think something like that wrote a [TS]

  tweet storm about this and we'll put a [TS]

  link to either the tweet storm or he [TS]

  eventually wrote a blog post about it [TS]

  we'll put some sort of link in the show [TS]

  in the show notes but I wanted to call [TS]

  out a few tweets of his he was a he was [TS]

  a Microsoft engineer and headed up a lot [TS]

  of their bigger software products if not [TS]

  most of software I don't know exactly [TS]

  where he was when when he left Microsoft [TS]

  but supposed to say the guy knows what [TS]

  he's talking about and he knows what [TS]

  he's talking I when I come [TS]

  to delivering software to lots and lots [TS]

  and lots of people and so in some of the [TS]

  tweets he wrote and this was a tweet [TS]

  number 28 of his tweets to him I know [TS]

  whatever [TS]

  anywhere has delivered a general-purpose [TS]

  piece of software and hardware at scale [TS]

  to a billion people delivering such a [TS]

  broad robust consistent experience we [TS]

  don't have a measure for what it means [TS]

  to be quote high quality quote I can say [TS]

  that in any absolute sense Apple has [TS]

  exceeded everyone else and that's kinda [TS]

  what I'm talking about right like you [TS]

  know it may be that that really the [TS]

  software quality is is good it's getting [TS]

  better but it's in terms of crashes [TS]

  perhaps and we've talked about this more [TS]

  than once on the show but maybe it's [TS]

  getting worse in some of the the kind of [TS]

  gray area that's harder it's harder to [TS]

  track Steven continues in tweet 31 but [TS]

  what happens to a team as complexity [TS]

  evolves is simply the challenge of [TS]

  coordination and more importantly [TS]

  consistency or leveling of decisions [TS]

  across a complex system this is [TS]

  particularly acute if the bulk of the [TS]

  team has only known the previous few [TS]

  years of success he continues in 32 so [TS]

  Apple will just renew their engineering [TS]

  process it means thinking about how risk [TS]

  is analyzed how schedules are [TS]

  constructed how priorities are set this [TS]

  is literally what it means to run a [TS]

  project and what we are all paying them [TS]

  to do so in conclusion so to me on Apple [TS]

  this is Steven to me on Apple even as an [TS]

  outsider I feel confident saying that [TS]

  this isn't reactionary or crisis or [TS]

  response to externalities importantly it [TS]

  isn't a massive pivot or a student body [TS]

  left [TS]

  it's a methodical in predictable [TS]

  evolution of an extremely robust and [TS]

  proven system so the short short version [TS]

  is hey when you have a lot of people [TS]

  writing a lot of code for a lot of [TS]

  different systems every once in a while [TS]

  just like John said you're gonna have to [TS]

  sit back and take stock and say we got a [TS]

  we got a tweak a few things and that's [TS]

  what they're doing I think what Sinofsky [TS]

  missed is the cyclic nature of just like [TS]

  yes this is this is totally routine [TS]

  thing that happens and that it happens [TS]

  repeatedly like I don't know I get that [TS]

  that forms a kind of a rollercoaster [TS]

  that people don't like they'd rather see [TS]

  just like a gentle slope from you know [TS]

  with constant improvement I've never [TS]

  seen that happen in the real world but [TS]

  the cyclic nature of it can make you can [TS]

  make you jaded if you are a long time [TS]

  employee or a long time engineer and be [TS]

  like yeah this always happens or [TS]

  whatever but that you know the problems [TS]

  just come back I think that's true but [TS]

  that's but it's better if you don't do [TS]

  the [TS]

  banan rollercoaster just becomes a down [TS]

  rollercoaster there just goes down [TS]

  forever and you never do make that [TS]

  adjustment so I've you know I fully [TS]

  believe that these type of adjustments [TS]

  have gone on an apple for the entire [TS]

  life of the company and will continue to [TS]

  go on and you just you know you just [TS]

  have to roll with it but I'm ready I'm [TS]

  ready for an upswing I think everyone is [TS]

  yep big time [TS]

  Barton Meeks writes in do you think the [TS]

  modular Mac Pro will provide a solution [TS]

  to a Mac Mini update at a reasonable [TS]

  price nope nope Alastair Campbell writes [TS]

  in you've alluded to a negative effect [TS]

  of running movies at the wrong framerate [TS]

  but I must have missed the original [TS]

  explanation I'm wondering if it is [TS]

  better to hand break blu-rays at 24 or [TS]

  30 frames per second what's the good [TS]

  digital backup for you and John you seem [TS]

  to be the most opinionated about this so [TS]

  do you want to take this one so the [TS]

  negative effect of running things at the [TS]

  wrong framerate is if they're not nice [TS]

  multiples of each other and has to show [TS]

  frames for different amounts of time but [TS]

  the video content we have expects you to [TS]

  show a refrain from equal amount of time [TS]

  whether it's one thirtieth of a second [TS]

  or one twenty-fourth of a second or [TS]

  whatever if you show some frames longer [TS]

  than you show other frames it can make [TS]

  motion look stuttery because it's it's [TS]

  like long long short short short long or [TS]

  whatever it doesn't you might not notice [TS]

  then lots of still images and maybe you [TS]

  don't notice that much in motion but it [TS]

  doesn't quite look right so that is the [TS]

  negative effect you don't want that it [TS]

  asking whether it's better to handbrake [TS]

  to to encode blu-rays at 24 or 30 you [TS]

  should encode them at whatever the the [TS]

  frame rate of the original source [TS]

  material is so if it's TV show and it's [TS]

  a twenty nine point nine seven whatever [TS]

  encoded at that frame rate if it's a [TS]

  movie and it's the 24 encoded at that [TS]

  frame rate don't do any kind of [TS]

  conversion whatever the source framer it [TS]

  is keep that and what's a good digital [TS]

  backup I'm assuming you mean like take [TS]

  it off of your class discs and put it [TS]

  somewhere you have to just rip the data [TS]

  exactly as is no transcoding no anything [TS]

  if you really want to have a digital [TS]

  backup use something like make MKV or [TS]

  whatever to just pull the bit the bits [TS]

  off the disk exactly as is with no [TS]

  conversion of format whatsoever and that [TS]

  is the only digital backup then you can [TS]

  have of stuff like this the best digital [TS]

  backup is perhaps to buy all these [TS]

  things in the cloud and then you don't [TS]

  have to worry about storing them but [TS]

  then you have to worry about the company [TS]

  going out of business and you're having [TS]

  no way to watch that stuff anymore which [TS]

  leads us into our next question [TS]

  the next question is from Benjamin [TS]

  ischium John you've mentioned that you [TS]

  prefer ebooks to paper books how do you [TS]

  deal with DRM slowly making your [TS]

  books inaccessible over time Benjamin [TS]

  continues I quote unquote own a couple [TS]

  of palm digital media books that I'll [TS]

  never be able to read again so this is [TS]

  tricky it's a lot there was a lot of [TS]

  churn in the e-book business early on [TS]

  some people who made in Soul the ebooks [TS]

  no longer do so I worked for prom [TS]

  digital media back when we have the [TS]

  largest ebook store in the world if you [TS]

  can believe it this is before Hamazon [TS]

  entered the game and many many things [TS]

  went wrong there but anyway they were [TS]

  DRM in comfort and if you purchase them [TS]

  from the store you could read them in an [TS]

  application that was ported to all sorts [TS]

  of different platforms so it eventually [TS]

  went down the drain and that business of [TS]

  selling ebooks went down the drain with [TS]

  it more or less and eventually you get [TS]

  to the point where the you know the iOS [TS]

  reader application which existed for [TS]

  many years like doesn't even launch [TS]

  anymore I think it's probably because [TS]

  it's 32-bit these days so you've got [TS]

  these DRM encumbered ebooks that you [TS]

  quote-unquote own that you can no longer [TS]

  read or that you can only read on like a [TS]

  really old Mac that can still run the [TS]

  role to reader software or whatever so [TS]

  what to do how do you deal with that I [TS]

  do still prefer ebooks just for the [TS]

  convenience or whatever I understand the [TS]

  limitations they provide but I think the [TS]

  convenience is worth it for me in [TS]

  general these days you're buying ebooks [TS]

  from one of the modern vendors most of [TS]

  them there's some shady way for you to [TS]

  crack their DRM and to make them [TS]

  unencumbered [TS]

  so you're still stuck with the format I [TS]

  can convert them to ePub or whatever but [TS]

  50 years ago you want to read your epub [TS]

  isn't like we have nothing they can read [TS]

  bub epubs you know HTML died and the you [TS]

  know the fire of the nuclear Armageddon [TS]

  and whatever you know who knows you [TS]

  don't be able to read your epub so the [TS]

  point is it's not DRM encumbered at [TS]

  least you're only limited by the format [TS]

  for palm those are media books [TS]

  specifically I don't know if there's a [TS]

  way to crack them you can try the [TS]

  application calibre which i think is [TS]

  used to crack a whole bunch of the the [TS]

  Amazon stuff with certain plugins or [TS]

  whatever but plums as a media ebooks [TS]

  were originally encrypted with your [TS]

  credit card number they used to buy them [TS]

  and if you if you don't know the credit [TS]

  card number with modern computing [TS]

  hardware I can tell you that it should [TS]

  be feasible to brute-force crack them [TS]

  but I don't know because this is a long [TS]

  time [TS]

  I don't know of any actual application [TS]

  that understands enough about the DRM to [TS]

  actually brute force it but I believe [TS]

  that you could in reasonable amount of [TS]

  time literally brute force crack it's [TS]

  much easier if you just know your your [TS]

  credit card number the palm eBook format [TS]

  was actually very simple so if you can [TS]

  get the data out you can easily convert [TS]

  it to ePub or some other more modern [TS]

  format I know that doesn't help too much [TS]

  I'm sure I myself have some purchased [TS]

  palm digital media books and peanut [TS]

  press ebooks that I can no longer read [TS]

  but in most cases I also have those [TS]

  books in epub from a different source [TS]

  and also in paper sitting to the right [TS]

  than me right here so if you're really [TS]

  worried about it buy the paper copy and [TS]

  don't keep them in the basement that'll [TS]

  flood because you'll lose your paper [TS]

  books that way nothing you'd know thanks [TS]

  to our sponsors this week betterment [TS]

  Squarespace and simple contacts and we [TS]

  will talk to you next week now the show [TS]

  is over they didn't even need to begin [TS]

  because it was accidental accidental [TS]

  research Marco and Casey wouldn't let [TS]

  him [TS]

  because it was accidentally was [TS]

  accidental you can find a s ey L is s so [TS]

  that's K sealless ma accion AR m auntie [TS]

  Marco Arment know what made me think of [TS]

  this to be honest but obviously I've [TS]

  been going back and forth about you know [TS]

  if I'm going to buy a car which I'm not [TS]

  convinced I am actually what should I [TS]

  buy should I get a Jeep Wrangler should [TS]

  I get it go go far should I get [TS]

  something else entirely a new BMW etc [TS]

  and it occurred to me that I think to me [TS]

  or to some degree I am as well but [TS]

  particularly you to have self pigeonhole [TS]

  to have pigeon-holed yourselves and to [TS]

  specific you know kinds of cars Marco [TS]

  you've basically said that until [TS]

  something dramatic changes you're gonna [TS]

  be a Tesla owner until the end of time [TS]

  John you know unless something dramatic [TS]

  changes like you know money raining from [TS]

  the skies right over your house yo your [TS]

  seemed to be an accord guy for at least [TS]

  the foreseeable future so I have for [TS]

  each of you a question and I'll start [TS]

  with Marco you know if if you couldn't [TS]

  buy a Tesla and then I'll even broaden [TS]

  it to if you couldn't buy an electric [TS]

  car and and you've made a very plain [TS]

  that that's what you prefer but if you [TS]

  couldn't buy an electric car just out of [TS]

  curiosity what would you buy so I saw [TS]

  this in the notes earlier I've been [TS]

  thinking about it this evening and and [TS]

  unfortunately I don't really know enough [TS]

  about like what cars are available these [TS]

  days to have a great answer yeah what [TS]

  has happened but I'll tell you you know [TS]

  very high on the list would be the new [TS]

  m5 because you know even though it [TS]

  doesn't have a transmission I would like [TS]

  I really enjoy having a fast large sedan [TS]

  now there's lots of options within that [TS]

  you know obviously you know and I should [TS]

  probably list in this list something [TS]

  from like Mercedes or Porsche something [TS]

  but I just don't know their lineups at [TS]

  all [TS]

  ow d might be somewhere on the list [TS]

  because honestly one thing I really [TS]

  enjoy about the Tesla that I didn't [TS]

  expect to enjoy as much as I do is [TS]

  having the nice big hatchback trunk and [TS]

  so I know like the Audi a7 is kind of [TS]

  similar in like size and and trunk [TS]

  nature and also hideous yes it's pretty [TS]

  bad looking so yeah oh you're so I would [TS]

  probably I would probably at least give [TS]

  that like a look just to see if I could [TS]

  tolerate it because I do I do like [TS]

  having a large facet and that is also a [TS]

  hatchback without being a wagon or an [TS]

  SUV or a crossover so so that's great so [TS]

  yeah probably on the list would be you [TS]

  know maybe look at the a7 maybe you know [TS]

  maybe look at the new m5 I would [TS]

  probably look at you know whatever [TS]

  mercedes offered in the same thing I [TS]

  also might just consider a regular 5 [TS]

  series like a 550 or even a whatever the [TS]

  540 is these days I might look at those [TS]

  because you know the the m5 was it was a [TS]

  fun time in my life but I have now grown [TS]

  to appreciate the value of a quiet car [TS]

  I like having a quiet car that is also [TS]

  fast I feel like I don't need to shout [TS]

  to the world how fast my car is with [TS]

  noise but ultimately when I Drive other [TS]

  cars now like I so I went on a trip [TS]

  which is why were a couple days late and [TS]

  on the trip I rented a Nissan Maxima and [TS]

  it was a perfectly nice car it had lots [TS]

  of great features you know lots of a [TS]

  nice little luxuries inside I'm very [TS]

  happy I rented it we were somewhere very [TS]

  cold and I was having the heated seats [TS]

  but like it just feels like going so far [TS]

  backwards to both have a gas car and to [TS]

  have some like little entertainment [TS]

  system on like a six inch screen with [TS]

  like you know running basically DOS feel [TS]

  to me and when I occasionally have to [TS]

  drive Tiff's car which is a modern BMW [TS]

  3-series [TS]

  it doesn't feel modern to me anymore [TS]

  like it feels old like using I Drive you [TS]

  know everything about a gas car [TS]

  like you know starting it up putting it [TS]

  in gear and haven't remember like [TS]

  actually like turn it off and lock it [TS]

  like an animal yeah like it's it it [TS]

  doesn't it just doesn't feel great to me [TS]

  so I think if I had to get a gas car [TS]

  again I might actually go lower end than [TS]

  like an m5 or something because I don't [TS]

  get the enjoyment out of that anymore [TS]

  that I used to like it's almost it's [TS]

  it's like well this is I was gonna say [TS]

  it's like you know getting back with [TS]

  your high school girlfriend but I don't [TS]

  really have any basis on which to say [TS]

  that because I never really had [TS]

  girlfriends in high school because I was [TS]

  just terrible at everything so but like [TS]

  it's like I've moved past that in my [TS]

  life now like I I had a great time with [TS]

  loud fast cars but now I'm perfectly [TS]

  happy with quiet boring more comfortable [TS]

  cars that also happen to be fast so I [TS]

  would probably just get something fast [TS]

  but not too ridiculous that's why I'm [TS]

  thinking maybe like a 550 or something [TS]

  like that [TS]

  mmm sure enough I I want to hate the new [TS]

  m5 because it does use the ZF 8-speed it [TS]

  from not mistaken which is very good but [TS]

  I I can't believe the m5 can't be had [TS]

  with a stick anymore but oh my word all [TS]

  the initial reviews of the new m5 zero [TS]

  to 60 in like between 2.8 and three [TS]

  point two seconds depending on who you [TS]

  ask like it's a ninety million pound [TS]

  full-size sedan going to 60 in three [TS]

  seconds like I I probably have mentioned [TS]

  this on the show 44 times but when I was [TS]

  a kid and really getting into cars I [TS]

  remember that like having a 0-60 time in [TS]

  the four second range was like [TS]

  Lamborghini and Ferrari territory like [TS]

  nobody could get to 60 in four seconds [TS]

  and here it is this m5 will do it in [TS]

  maybe two worst case low threes like [TS]

  yeah god it's just bananas I'll tell you [TS]

  what like you know maybe maybe one other [TS]

  direction that I might want to go is [TS]

  like you know if I can't get my nice big [TS]

  comfort boat from space like maybe if if [TS]

  Tiff's car could become the family car [TS]

  that could hold a lot and be big then [TS]

  then maybe I would I would do something [TS]

  that electric currently is not very good [TS]

  something small and light and fast and [TS]

  fun so you know maybe something like uh [TS]

  nem - or like a caiman or you know [TS]

  something like that [TS]

  like something that electric cars really [TS]

  can't be very well yet that's [TS]

  interesting [TS]

  do you miss the the 1-series them ever [TS]

  occasionally like but but not not [TS]

  significantly like I I would love to saw [TS]

  at some point drive the new m2 or even [TS]

  the 235 like that like the you know the [TS]

  m235i would love to drive either of [TS]

  those just because I they do by all [TS]

  reviews and accounts they do sound like [TS]

  they're pretty fun little cars I think [TS]

  that would be fun to drive those and and [TS]

  to you know to consider those if I [TS]

  couldn't have my big comfort boat but [TS]

  but ultimately like I I've gotten [TS]

  slightly older and a lot more boring and [TS]

  I kind of just like my fast comfort boat [TS]

  now so it's it's hard for me to really [TS]

  give this question an honest answer or [TS]

  honest consideration because I just my [TS]

  head's not in that space anymore yeah [TS]

  that's fair I I drove an m235i which is [TS]

  now an m240 I and it was it was really [TS]

  great like I wouldn't say that there was [TS]

  anything tremendously remarkable about [TS]

  it it was just a fun small you know a [TS]

  nimble car which there's some to be said [TS]

  for that right you know it was just it [TS]

  was really nice in that regard and and I [TS]

  had a lot of fun with it alright so [TS]

  moving on to well John you have any [TS]

  comments on Marcos choices not to say [TS]

  that this was really designed to create [TS]

  an argument but but far be it for me to [TS]

  not give you a chance to respond any [TS]

  thoughts I was gonna start by telling [TS]

  Marco dieter but anyway okay my answer [TS]

  so the best direct replacement that's [TS]

  non electric direct replacement for his [TS]

  Tesla is the Panamera has a hatchback [TS]

  the new version of Samus ugly is the old [TS]

  one it's really fast and fun to drive it [TS]

  seats four which should be adequate for [TS]

  his needs and yeah I think you would I [TS]

  think he would end up there because I [TS]

  think it is more exciting than the the [TS]

  five series and you know shape wise like [TS]

  it practically looks like a Model S at [TS]

  this point so I think we have a lot of [TS]

  fun with it there's still not good [TS]

  looking you gotta see it in person it's [TS]

  not it III think they actually are [TS]

  good-looking III didn't the old one [TS]

  obviously had the weird hunchback the [TS]

  look it wasn't nice this is much more [TS]

  nicely proportionate when you see it in [TS]

  person like the Model S which I think [TS]

  looks kind of dowdy in pictures when you [TS]

  see it in person you realize it is lower [TS]

  and wider than you thought and it has a [TS]

  nice presence in person I know because I [TS]

  see them all over where I live yeah I [TS]

  mean looking at the Islamic than shown [TS]

  their website everything you know [TS]

  because I really have enjoyed a [TS]

  hatchback [TS]

  I would I would give this I would give [TS]

  this a look but I wouldn't feel good [TS]

  about it and and everyone said like the [TS]

  this behaves the is the least sedan like [TS]

  of all of the big sedans like everyone [TS]

  says no I'm but I mean like in terms of [TS]

  not feeling heavy and like a boat right [TS]

  that it feels nimble and you know it [TS]

  feels like a slightly bigger Cayman it [TS]

  doesn't feel like a souped up you know [TS]

  Cadillac or whatever yeah they're [TS]

  they're making an electric too by the [TS]

  way so Marco actually might be in the [TS]

  market eventually when when their [TS]

  elections come out cuz they will [TS]

  actually have a direct electric [TS]

  competitor to Tesla and that's another [TS]

  reason Marco will be in the Porsche [TS]

  dealership well and like like their [TS]

  their concept like the is the mission EE [TS]

  they're comfortable a year or two ago [TS]

  that did look really cool but it's just [TS]

  a concept and you know it's who knows [TS]

  what will actually ship and when it does [TS]

  ship there's there's a big question of [TS]

  charging stations like Tesla has a lot [TS]

  of superchargers and they keep adding [TS]

  more at a pretty remarkable rate you [TS]

  know I know there's like the the you [TS]

  know standard based networks that are [TS]

  also out there but but Tesla has a [TS]

  pretty big head start and they're in a [TS]

  lot of places and there are places that [TS]

  I go like they now cover upstate pretty [TS]

  well like what that used to they used to [TS]

  have very little coverage now they have [TS]

  great coverage like they're they're [TS]

  getting all over the place and so [TS]

  anybody who comes in with with a you [TS]

  know major long-distance electric car [TS]

  competitor is going to have a pretty [TS]

  serious fight ahead of them to get past [TS]

  the supercharger network well you should [TS]

  worried about though is when the hell [TS]

  they can replace the Model S because [TS]

  this is always comes out in comparison [TS]

  test where like one model that is one [TS]

  the comparison test for the five years [TS]

  running is at the end of its its [TS]

  generations lifetime and it's about to [TS]

  be redesigned and it comes up against [TS]

  the newly redesigned competitor and then [TS]

  loses for the first time and so yeah the [TS]

  Model S is great [TS]

  but you can't just keep the same car [TS]

  with minor interior and exterior tweaks [TS]

  for 15 years you have to you have to [TS]

  come up with the next version and the [TS]

  next version has to be better so [TS]

  presumably everybody who's targeting [TS]

  Tesla they've got the Model S in their [TS]

  sights they know that what their [TS]

  benchmark they have to beat and they're [TS]

  gonna end up beating it you know setting [TS]

  aside the the charger network things [TS]

  Tesla but you would fully expect [TS]

  okay well Tesla's gonna be the two with [TS]

  the next Model S and mostly how that [TS]

  goes I am very very curious to see what [TS]

  the heck the next Model S is because [TS]

  they've done a lot of things with the [TS]

  Model 3 [TS]

  that sound really good to me and a few [TS]

  things that sound really bad to me what [TS]

  are they gonna carry over like the like [TS]

  the single screen thing nope not for me [TS]

  that does not sound good the elimination [TS]

  of the of the auto steer cruise control [TS]

  stock nope don't like that but things [TS]

  like you know having the one giant vent [TS]

  across the top and having the way faster [TS]

  more responsive touchscreen that sounds [TS]

  great [TS]

  so yeah there's things I like from model [TS]

  3 we'll see what they actually bring [TS]

  over right I really hope they don't ruin [TS]

  it the seat it seems like every Tesla [TS]

  Model they do like almost everything [TS]

  right and one thing that's just like a [TS]

  dumb risk they took that didn't pay off [TS]

  that you know ends up being annoying or [TS]

  failure prone so like with the Model S [TS]

  it was the stupid pop-out door handles [TS]

  that fail constantly with the exit was [TS]

  the the weird gull wing doors that you [TS]

  know caused them to have lots of delays [TS]

  and issues Falcon wings please whatever [TS]

  yeah and then with the model three I [TS]

  think they're weird risk they took was [TS]

  having just that one screen and having [TS]

  way too many functions rely on that one [TS]

  screens and like you know some menu [TS]

  there so you know who knows what they're [TS]

  gonna ruin with the next Model S I just [TS]

  hope it's something I can tolerate [TS]

  so John's challenged similar if you had [TS]

  to buy something that wasn't an accord [TS]

  what would you buy mazda6 because it is [TS]

  about the same size it gets good reviews [TS]

  comes with a stick-shift okay and I had [TS]

  its I didn't know specifically what you [TS]

  were going to say but I had a feeling it [TS]

  would be something along those lines so [TS]

  now let's assume for the sake of [TS]

  conversation that a two pedal car is [TS]

  okay just for the sake of conversation [TS]

  I'm not saying this is what you think [TS]

  would that change your too [TS]

  would you choose something different no [TS]

  I've if it's okay no I would never pick [TS]

  okay what porch was not allowed I'm not [TS]

  allowed to have a stick sure let's go [TS]

  with that let's say you're not allowed [TS]

  to have a stick shift I think I might [TS]

  find myself in the one Accord that I [TS]

  recently learned comes with an automatic [TS]

  they not the CVT once but the mom with [TS]

  the automatic interesting okay wait I [TS]

  see you later picking a course let's say [TS]

  no actually I did not specify I didn't [TS]

  specify but yeah good point let's go [TS]

  with no because let's make this more [TS]

  interesting get you out of your comfort [TS]

  zone no no because like now we start [TS]

  getting to spending more money than I [TS]

  want to spend on a car well that's the [TS]

  next question we're not there yet [TS]

  what's the cheapest non disgusting [TS]

  automatic transmission car that it can [TS]

  fit my family that I would buy I don't [TS]

  know does this the Mazda 6 come with an [TS]

  auto sure get that yeah I mean that's [TS]

  what Erin had she had a no I know I'm [TS]

  just saying like she had a 2007 mazda 6 [TS]

  Grand Touring it had darn near every [TS]

  option on it it was an automatic and it [TS]

  was a phenomenal car it was a really [TS]

  really really great yeah I think I think [TS]

  I'll get the Mazda 6 with automatic all [TS]

  right so now some you know African [TS]

  Prince has died and bequeath to you all [TS]

  of his money but it's actually legit [TS]

  this time you have you know ten million [TS]

  dollars of with which you can spend on [TS]

  this car what would you buy ten million [TS]

  dollars I mean you have to use all ten [TS]

  that's been part of that on the house to [TS]

  house the car don't worry about your [TS]

  acorn so much I'm worried about it [TS]

  ruined by my kids scrape and their [TS]

  bicycle handles across that as I shown [TS]

  into my little garage don't worry about [TS]

  the acorns just just worry about the car [TS]

  let's just presume that everything else [TS]

  is - and you said I can't no Ferraris [TS]

  you're cheating you're looking at the [TS]

  show notes so show notes it reads as [TS]

  follows John has to buy one non Accord [TS]

  what would he buy next bullet what if [TS]

  two pedals were okay [TS]

  next bullet okay this is in the show [TS]

  notes okay fine now money is no object [TS]

  and it has to be two pedals no Ferraris [TS]

  but let's start with the Ferraris but [TS]

  even though we all know [TS]

  your answer to whatever the the v12 is [TS]

  yeah I was looking at you know I was [TS]

  looking at the 48 again I don't know the [TS]

  48 just hasn't grown on me as much as I [TS]

  thought it would so I'm wondering if I [TS]

  would actually get a 458 or even a 430 [TS]

  because I do like both of those cars [TS]

  better but then I look at the interiors [TS]

  they're all kind of weird so I don't [TS]

  know but like practically speaking like [TS]

  I wouldn't if you only let me have one [TS]

  car I wouldn't get any of those because [TS]

  I can't I can't like drive that to work [TS]

  every day and carry your kids kids [TS]

  around then didn't go on vacations is [TS]

  just not practical it has to be like [TS]

  your second or third or fourth car right [TS]

  so I'm I went back into four-door sedans [TS]

  then I'm gonna especially if I'm allowed [TS]

  to get a new house no just don't again [TS]

  don't worry about the house they give [TS]

  the acorns have gone away your kids will [TS]

  not touch the car but it was only one [TS]

  car I think I would end up with like an [TS]

  AMG E Series Mercedes because the [TS]

  s-class as much as I love it I think [TS]

  it's just I think it's just too big to [TS]

  be I think I would like these better [TS]

  because these aren't that small these [TS]

  days I feel like they're more or less [TS]

  accord size they're really fast but also [TS]

  are comfortable and have lots of tech [TS]

  gadgets I'm not even sure if I'd we got [TS]

  the AMG model frankly I'm actually end [TS]

  up with the non AMG model if I felt like [TS]

  that was fast enough for the AMG one was [TS]

  squishy but I really like these and I [TS]

  feel like they are more they're more to [TS]

  my taste I think then then probably the [TS]

  m5 that's that I haven't really seen [TS]

  details about the new m5 so maybe they [TS]

  were just a little and I did like Markos [TS]

  m5 but I just feel like all the all the [TS]

  the bad vibes that you've both given me [TS]

  about BMWs and repair wheels and [TS]

  everything go to the devil I don't know [TS]

  and Mercedes I suppose but you would not [TS]

  get a wagon you would get a sedan yeah I [TS]

  get a sit down do you like wagons in [TS]

  principle I do I just don't think I need [TS]

  one like we just have the two kids and [TS]

  it's not like we're going camping [TS]

  you know I do like wagons I would I [TS]

  would get a wagon over a minivan any day [TS]

  but I just don't feel like I need that [TS]

  extra space up why would I get a wagon [TS]

  when I could just get us a man since I'm [TS]

  now a car journalist I mean I've been [TS]

  considering wagons more and more with [TS]

  each passing day and even though as an [TS]

  American I'm supposed to hate wagons [TS]

  there's something to be said for a fast [TS]

  that has no business being as fast as it [TS]

  is so I'm configuring my Porsche [TS]

  Panamera excuse me it's Porsche sir [TS]

  don't pick the the $20,000 option that [TS]

  gives you like a card key fob the [TS]

  options that they give you are like [TS]

  there's like first of all there's like [TS]

  90 different options that's not an [TS]

  exaggeration and the the it is ludicrous [TS]

  like I thought BMW was crazy with all [TS]

  the little diamonds is the king of oh my [TS]

  god so among other things I have the [TS]

  option to add a six disc DVD changer or [TS]

  nice five hundred and sixty dollars [TS]

  wow that's cheap I can add a USB port in [TS]

  the rear for four hundred and twenty [TS]

  dollars that's just the port I can add a [TS]

  fire extinguisher I don't know where or [TS]

  how for one hundred and eighty dollars [TS]

  like I've never seen this many options [TS]

  it's it's ridiculous I was watching a [TS]

  demurrer video recently I think it was [TS]

  talking about the like the 918 or [TS]

  something but what I think was it a [TS]

  paint car option that was 65 grand there [TS]

  was some there so it was like a cosmetic [TS]

  option that it cost more than like you [TS]

  know most cars so I can get the the air [TS]

  vent slats painted for two thousand [TS]

  three hundred thirty dollars so I do not [TS]

  like the look of this interior at all [TS]

  I bet the interior is is very very [TS]

  highly configurable so it is very highly [TS]

  configurable as long as you're willing [TS]

  to spend two thousand dollars to paint [TS]

  your air slats yeah Porsche it seen it [TS]

  seems like it if you want anything [TS]

  that's not stock it costs a huge such a [TS]

  huge amount of money that you're like [TS]

  did they just buy the stock car and then [TS]

  take out the parts and burn them and [TS]

  then put in new parts like why does it [TS]

  cost so much money god there's so many [TS]

  see like it's [TS]

  holy smokes like and yeah the good thing [TS]

  is like if yeah I think John's right [TS]

  like it you know if you want to [TS]

  customize I mean they have they have [TS]

  like 15 different wheels you can pick [TS]

  like there's there's so many options to [TS]

  this you and a half of them I don't even [TS]

  understand what they would do or why I [TS]

  would want them [TS]

  seat belts in chalk 616 dollars [TS]

  decorative valve stems decorative valve [TS]

  stems in black with colored Porsche [TS]

  crest $70 that's that might be the [TS]

  cheapest thing on this entire list oh my [TS]

  god it's amazing and this is starting at [TS]

  150,000 for the Porsche Panamera Turbo [TS]

  executive oh I didn't go to the [TS]

  executive I stopped at the 4s which my [TS]

  configuration is 124,000 and I haven't [TS]

  even gotten like you know like good [TS]

  seats and everything I think there's [TS]

  like a game with the poor top is it you [TS]

  just you want to get the one with the [TS]

  good engine right and then after that [TS]

  you want to pick like two things that [TS]

  are important to you everything else [TS]

  except stock I think the real answer [TS]

  here is you want to buy these used [TS]

  because like you know used cars you tend [TS]

  to you tend to get a lot of the options [TS]

  basically for free it's like you know [TS]

  it's like you don't you know if you spec [TS]

  up a cart like though the use pricing is [TS]

  based on not all the options is based on [TS]

  like the engine trim level year and my [TS]

  legs like that's a that's about it so [TS]

  like the way to get any of these cars if [TS]

  you want a lot of options is to guys [TS]

  wait for a used one to come up that has [TS]

  a lot of options that someone else took [TS]

  a bath on and you get those pretty [TS]

  nicely I think I mentioned there's about [TS]

  like rolls-royce uh Mercedes last time [TS]

  we talked about it but I'm just so [TS]

  surprised that these companies stick to [TS]

  this I mean I suppose there is some [TS]

  attraction to the the high-end clientele [TS]

  if being able to customize everything [TS]

  especially like on Bentley enrolls and [TS]

  stuff but as Marco is noted in is a [TS]

  salad power user you know diatribe the [TS]

  paralysis of choice I would be terrified [TS]

  that I would be accidentally configuring [TS]

  the world's ugliest rolls-royce right [TS]

  because you have you can choose [TS]

  everything every kind of every material [TS]

  every surface every color everything [TS]

  it's like don't don't trust me to design [TS]

  it especially if they have not-so-great [TS]

  visualization it's like I paid through [TS]

  and 50 grand for this mentally and it [TS]

  looks like a clown car cuz I didn't [TS]

  think about how this color leather would [TS]

  look with this color stitching would [TS]

  look with this material because I'm not [TS]

  a car interior designer just give me [TS]

  some presets like Marco wants for salads [TS]

  and then maybe I'll say let me give me [TS]

  preset and then a little tweak one thing [TS]

  or something cuz I think I scare you I [TS]

  mean I think it mostly nerves in my how [TS]

  scary it would be to buy a car sight [TS]

  unseen like you've never seen a car with [TS]

  this materials you've never sat down you [TS]

  don't know what it's gonna look like you [TS]

  don't know how it's gonna feel and just [TS]

  picking from a menu terrifying so I [TS]

  wonder which people have like other [TS]

  people configure their cars for them [TS]

  right or they just say oh I don't know [TS]

  you just make it nice for me or like the [TS]

  hire car interior designers just like [TS]

  you design you know hire them for your [TS]

  house like poor people you know just go [TS]

  to the Home Center and they pick out [TS]

  materials for their floor and their [TS]

  countertops um whatever and they cross [TS]

  their fingers and hope it looks okay the [TS]

  rich people hire interior designer and [TS]

  you know also cross their fingers I [TS]

  suppose but pay gobs and gobs some money [TS]

  for them to come up with materials and [TS]

  everything that look good together so I [TS]

  wonder if they do that for cars too [TS]

  because it's it's a huge expense and [TS]

  there's just too many choices [TS]

  yeah I'm looking now like I would rather [TS]

  have just a regular five series I think [TS]

  than the Panamera I like you get so much [TS]

  more for the money and it's a way nice [TS]

  looking car even though it does have a [TS]

  little bit of the skin flap issue of [TS]

  modern ones but yeah that's I think I'd [TS]

  rather have that like a job for Casey [TS]

  Casey do you know any interest in being [TS]

  a car option configure to rich people [TS]

  I would love to are you kidding I would [TS]

  Lord you feel the pressure though and [TS]

  not accidentally making an ugly car for [TS]

  them no I really wouldn't because I mean [TS]

  they're rich who cares they're just [TS]

  looking for someone to blame I mean yeah [TS]

  yeah charge your fee it's like interior [TS]

  designers you're the charge of your feet [TS]

  which should be like at least one third [TS]

  of the price of actually doing job [TS]

  purely for like you know what service [TS]

  you provide you tell the much options to [TS]

  pick I have long thought about how fun [TS]

  it would be to be like a car head hunter [TS]

  if you will so you know take me for [TS]

  example when I was buying my 3-series [TS]

  you know I wanted a 335 it had to have a [TS]

  stick it had to have the M Sport package [TS]

  you know and there I think they were one [TS]

  or two other options I insisted upon not [TS]

  white before either view Jim [TS]

  anyway the point is you know I would [TS]

  love to be a owner and we I would love [TS]

  to be a car head hunter that's you know [TS]

  that my job is just like scour [TS]

  Autotrader to try to find that like [TS]

  perfect you [TS]

  horn for somebody I think that would be [TS]

  super fun but anyone who would have the [TS]

  money for that would would be buying new [TS]

  anyway so they would just order one [TS]

  house thank you just you just hang out [TS]

  like honor if you work at the dealer and [TS]

  say we have this person here their [TS]

  services are provided at a very small [TS]

  fee of 50 grand and they will help you [TS]

  select options for your 250,000 dollar [TS]

  car [TS]

  I mean if you're looking to hire me you [TS]

  can find my contact information at KC [TS]

  let's calm yeah 50 grand per car like [TS]

  you you know you can make some some good [TS]

  money doing that for me and honestly if [TS]

  I had the money to buy a Bentley I would [TS]

  gladly pay 50 grand to someone who would [TS]

  prevent me from miss configuring my car [TS]

  and getting an ugly $350,000 Bentley [TS]

  instead I'd have a good-looking $400,000 [TS]

  Bentley [TS]