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H.I. #97: Tesla in Space


  possibly not be true who would ever

  confess to a crime that they haven't

  committed and I was watching this I just

  kept thinking why don't we have

  professional jurors I don't understand

  why it's like an advantage to pull a

  bunch of randos off the street and have

  them being the one in in the trial


  well because here's the thing I feel

  like having watched a bunch of these

  episodes this idea kept coming into my

  head that part of the problem

  is not even just that you can manipulate

  a person into confessing a crime that

  they did not commit the other half of

  the problem is the way that the

  prosecution can manipulate the jury to

  get a win for the prosecution because

  the jurors are unfamiliar with what the

  system is surely it would be an

  advantage to have people who are

  professional jurors who are familiar

  with how the whole system works doing

  this who don't have to a newbie

  explained every time here's what police

  procedures should be who don't have to

  anew every time be introduced to and

  convinced and sold on the idea that a

  confession is not as a reliable piece of

  evidence as you think it is it's just

  blowing my mind thinking about the

  man-hours as a society we must invest in

  re-explaining stuff too every brand-new

  pool of jurors that exists and I'm just

  what like is there something that I'm

  missing here is there an argument

  against professional jurors I've never

  really thought about it until yesterday

  and today when I was watching these

  episodes but it's just like I can't get

  this out of my head why is this not a

  thing that we have oh you're making my

  head explode

  I've thought of so many things to say I

  can't remember the moment well I mean

  every jurisdiction is different and I

  finally talked about jurisdictions in

  which I've have experiences like a

  journalist and have lived in the first

  thing I'd say is in most of the places

  I've lived we do have professional do

  their code judges and in a lot of

  jurisdictions you can choose if you wish

  to be judged by the judge the

  professional juror instead of a jury of

  civilians and the reason most people

  don't do that is because juries are

  actually in the defense's best interest

  in most cases and they would prefer to

  have a jury so suggesting that a juries

  are too easily manipulated by the

  prosecution I think it's the exact

  opposite and they're too easily

  manipulated by the defense well I think

  we could say that they're too easily

  manipulated right well fair enough and

  we have this thing that it's enshrined

  in law in some places that you can be

  tried by your peers and it's not

  enshrined in law that you can be tried

  by professionally appointed government

  appointed officials who are part of like

  the establishment and I think that would

  cause an even bigger problem if everyone

  was being tried by government appointees

  you can see that's the thin end of a

  wedge that's going to get really

  problematic really quickly I think when

  you say it like professional jurors

  you've got this nice idea in your head

  of like you know just smart super fair

  impartial people but they have to be

  appointed and who appoints them a

  government and as soon as you say

  government appointed officials are going

  to be deciding who's innocent and guilty

  you've totally lost this tried by your

  peers component of the law that is so

  sacred to so many people yeah I don't

  think the judge gets around that though

  like when you say oh you can be tried by

  professional juror who was a judge to me

  that the terrifying thing about the

  judge is that they are one person I feel

  like I would almost never want to roll

  the dice on a single person because a

  single person is too unreliable that's

  why you have multiple jurors there you

  do actually there are some cases by the

  way that can be heard by three judges

  okay that's much better

  we're splitting hairs now but no no but

  that does make a difference if I had to

  choose between like a trial by jury and

  three judges that is much more of a real

  consideration although that does start

  getting into against some of the America

  specific scary stuff first like but the

  judges need to be elected and then it's

  like oh god now that's a little

  different affair or even appointed but

  also I haven't got numbers on this but

  I'm almost certain that you get far more

  acquittals from juries than you do from

  judges so if you

  like thinking of being wrongly accused

  CGP grey i think you may want to

  consider that the jury I think you do

  raise a good point that there may be a

  thin end of the wedge here which is how

  does a professional jury member become

  one of those people when you say like

  their government to point it I was

  saying like oh no but that they wouldn't

  be like that it's like ah but obviously

  ultimately the legal system in some way

  would need to be deciding who is able to

  become a professional juror and I

  haven't really thought this through I'm

  just I'm just thinking this out loud now

  but I mean I don't know how much you

  know about the UK justice system gray

  but one thing they do this doesn't

  really apply to you know murder trials

  and stuff but you do have volunteer

  magistrates through the country and

  these are normally people who are like

  respected people in good jobs and

  they're and they'll volunteer a couple

  of days a month to sit in the

  magistrate's court and they become just

  like a judge doing like high-volume

  stuff with people who've you know had

  minor run-ins with the law and they have

  like a professional little committee

  with them that advises them and tells

  them how the law works and things they

  can do but they sit there and show their

  own discretion and and make decisions so

  you mean like it like it's a civil court

  no it's a proper court like it's a

  Criminal Court but it's for more low

  stakes infringement I don't know a lot

  about it except I know a few people who

  do it an old boss of mine at the BBC was

  a magistrate for many years so once or

  twice a month she would have to go and

  do it and she would just sit there and

  people would make their case to her and

  she would decide whether they got a

  rough ride or an easy ride and she had

  experts there they'd be like a

  magistrate's assistant that would tell

  her here's what you can deal with his

  what you can do you could sentence up to

  this or you could do that but they got

  to show the discretion and they were

  almost like community judges but I mean

  this is for low stakes stuff she wasn't

  sitting there deciding whether or not

  someone murdered their girlfriend yeah I

  don't know I feel like you have

  immediately thrown all of these monkey

  wrenches into my poorly thought-out

  ideas but I still have this emotional

  response to what I view as like oh

  you're just gonna have 12 randos pulled

  off the streets

  and they're unfamiliar with the whole

  process and because I'm watching the

  show about false confessions obviously

  my concern is about being manipulated

  into convicting someone but then again

  like my scales of justice are weighed

  very heavily on it's it's far worse to

  convict an innocent person than to let a

  guilty person go for you by far so

  that's where my concern is but

  nonetheless their inexperience allows

  them to be manipulated by the defense as

  well I don't know it's just it seems

  like it's just in tremendous advantage

  for the jurors not to all be noobs at

  the job of handling people's lives I

  don't know a way around this yeah I say

  you made you feel that we're having to

  reinvent the wheel every trial to my

  mind the problem is also that you're

  having these noobs go up against the

  experts and so the trial lawyers on both

  sides are able to see how jurors react

  to different things over time or

  different cases or different ways to

  present things I just I feel like it is

  extraordinarily asymmetric I just don't

  think this is good or Eve even things

  like you know my dad's a lawyer

  and that basically excludes him from

  ever being able to be on a jury ever

  like when he's been called in to jury

  duty it's like oh you're a lawyer get

  out of here like we don't want you on

  the jury have you ever been summoned for

  jury duty I haven't but I'm gonna in a

  bit of a funny situation getting

  overseas but I received a summons and

  then there's like a form that you fill

  out that says lol I live 2,000 miles

  away it's not it's not going to happen

  I'm not coming back to North Carolina to

  sit on a jury have you I never have no I

  remember once being in a in a court

  covering a trial and there was like a

  fire evacuation in the court building

  and we had to go out through the jury

  room it was so exciting and getting to

  go into the jury room and all their

  personal stuff was lying around and it

  was like oh this is so naughty because

  they're so sacred to the jury getting to

  go through their room was like a real

  treat I imagine it was there and it was

  like also often in the lunch break I

  would go out into at the markets and get

  food and like jurors from cases who I

  was covering would be

  out getting themselves a hot dog and a

  milkshake as well and a bit like at the

  airport when you're like really

  conscientious about doing the right

  thing I would make such an effort to not

  look at them or talk to any jurors or be

  seen going anywhere near any of them it

  was crazy because you're very

  responsible very response very

  responsible member of the media

  unlike in America all the crazy stuff

  that can happen where you take a

  bewildered guy you put him up through a

  perp walk right in front of some cameras

  and tell him to apologize to the world

  for the thing that he's done it's like

  oh absolutely crazy that that kind of

  thing can happen in American media with

  juries but if I was ever called I mean

  of course I would do everything within

  my human power to not sit on that jury

  the number one thing being is I'd be

  like I will disregard all eyewitness

  testimony no matter what I'm pretty sure

  just that would get me disqualified from

  a jury immediately like I will not

  listen to any of your eyewitness

  testimony I really wouldn't want to be

  in a jury because I think I would just

  freak out at the idea that like I have

  to sit in this little box when they tell

  me to sit in the box and I can only take

  breaks when they tell me it's time to

  take breaks

  I feel like now if I want to go to the

  bathroom I'm gonna go to the bathroom

  and I don't care what you guys are doing

  I would make a terrible juror so no I

  wouldn't I wouldn't want to be in the

  box I would do and say anything to not

  be on a jury so I don't think that

  that's gonna happen anytime soon there

  was a case in Scotland just recently

  that I've just caught up on my screen I

  was reading about it where it was a one

  of those nightmare white-collar criminal

  property fraud type trials and the jury

  had to sit for 20 months for the case I

  mean he might as well be in prison if

  that's happening apparently they needed

  like counselling and psychological

  treatment afterwards to go back to the

  real world and because of Scottish law

  is really strict about the 12 jurors

  thing and there were 12 of them if one

  of them left or something the whole

  trial would have collapsed so they all

  had to like make sure they could see it

  through so the trial didn't fall in a

  hey this is why I don't want to be on

  the jury I would forget it like screw

  your trial I'm going home what happened

  to those people do any of them have like

  did they lose their jobs or like did

  they just lose a bunch of money to their

  employer I have to pay them all that

  time sometimes big chunky a lot of 20

  months yeah I know at least in the u.s.

  you basically

  screw it if you get on a jury there's

  some amount of compensation that you get

  that is insulting Lelo like here have a

  dollar a day I feel like you know what

  keep your goddamn dollar don't think

  like you're paying me and we're even now

  you take this dollar and you shove it up

  your ass for me losing a day of my life

  so your employer doesn't have to pay but

  presumably they can't sack you like you

  must be allowed to go back to your job I

  hope all right yeah I don't know I don't

  know how it works with the work like


  I don't know but it doesn't sound fun

  one last thing though that's again

  watching the show just hammered into me

  as thoroughly as an idea can be hammered

  into a person even someone who is the

  son of a lawyer is the idea of just like

  the police are not your friends never

  talk to the police hmm

  ever for any reason it's like the world

  shouldn't be this way but it it totally

  is and it just makes me feel bad seeing

  people get caught up in the idea that

  like oh I'm just trying to help the

  police because they need to clear me as

  the boyfriend so they can move on and

  find who the real killer is hmm what is

  like that's not really the police's

  motivation the police's motivation is to

  close this case as fast as possible and

  you're sitting right in front get the

  clearance up on the board yeah exactly

  like you are a file that's a stack of

  files that needs to go away

  and if I was ever pulled in to talk to

  the police about anything it's like I

  will say nothing unless my attorney is

  here and be like oh we didn't want to

  talk to you because the Queen was

  assassinated and you were in the crowd

  we have you on CCTV we know you didn't

  do it we just want to know if you saw

  anything that could help us I'd be like

  I'm not saying a goddamn word until my

  attorney is here I know how you people

  work I wonder if it would be any

  different than if someone like you

  really loved hello had something had

  happened to them whether or not you'd be

  like more eager to help the police just

  out of can't some kind of devotion to

  obviously it's different if the person's

  died but but say you know someone you

  loved was kidnapped and you were

  thinking well I've got to just do

  everything I can to help the police to

  you know get this person back or yeah I

  mean I know kidnapping said not pretty

  rare but kidnappings are rare but it

  puts you in a really difficult position

  as the only thing which I think it never

  the details of a never

  crossed my mind but watching this

  documentary it also really solidified is

  in every episode it's it's somebody who

  has lost a very close loved one right

  it's it's a girlfriend or its parents or

  it's a child or it's a spouse and it

  never really quite occurred to me how

  horrible this situation is where it's

  like okay you you have lost your wife

  and then you're going to spend 16 hours

  a day for the next three days being

  interrogated by the police while you're

  in the middle of the worst emotional

  event of your entire life and I think I

  just it had never really crossed me the

  true horror of that like you're in a

  daze but you also have these people who

  are just asking you questions about

  absolutely everything and you're

  obviously the number one suspect of

  what's going on it's like it's not bad

  enough that you've lost a loved one but

  you're also getting like bullied at the

  same time that this is going on

  obviously the police have to talk to the

  people who are the most likely suspects

  because when someone dies is like well

  let's put that family up on the board

  like it's probably one of these people

  so I don't know how to resolve that but

  it just seems inhumanly cruel to

  immediately start questioning someone

  when you find out like Oh their

  girlfriend has died let's take them to

  the station right now to do an interview

  I can't imagine talking to anyone under

  those circumstances so be like I'm sorry

  I need to go curl up in a ball and just

  cry for days for a while like you can

  call me in a week and maybe I can put

  together a coherent sentence like I

  can't talk to police officers now it

  just seems so cruel but you don't need

  to obviously you know that you need to

  try and sort out crimes as soon as

  possible after they happen before

  evidence vanishes but let's put that to

  one side because it is it that is an

  interesting conflict do you think that

  you are being naive to think that you

  can get a confession or someone to tell

  the truth just with

  logic or catching them out in a lie or

  do you think like in a real world where

  bad people do bad things and then lie

  about them that you need to use some

  Dark Arts to get to the truth sometimes

  and it's unrealistic to expect this sort

  of goody-two-shoes fair's fair approach

  and when you're dealing with bad people

  sometimes a bit of tricking them can get

  you to the truth I think that the legal

  system is so important that you can't

  have it be the system that uses the dark

  arts I mean that to me is like okay

  professional jurors maybe there's a thin

  end of a wedge here where the government

  starts appointing the people who are

  going to decide who is innocent and who

  is not innocent but if you say like oh

  the police can use tricks to try to

  catch the bad guys I just can never get

  behind that because I feel like it

  sullies the entire system and also just

  my own personal belief here that I just

  don't I don't think those tricks are

  meaningful because of my disregard of

  human memory I don't think it's

  meaningful I think it is too easy to get

  people to talk about things that they

  just remember very poorly even in

  trivial ways that documentary that you

  had may watch episode 3 I'm sure link to

  if people want to watch this specific

  one I watch that and obviously there was

  no recording of the second day of the

  questioning of this guy so I don't who

  knows what happened but if we're just

  going on what we saw in the documentary

  I loved what I saw that policeman doing

  was just kind of like building a rapport

  even though he's faking and being

  insincere and I can't believe the guy

  didn't see through it like do you think

  it's wrong for a policeman to try and

  build a rapport with someone who they

  thinks a suspect build up a level of

  trust even though it's insincere in the

  hope that you get to the truth I think

  that's a that's a trickier question have

  you happened to see also on Netflix

  there's a series which they fixed

  analyze series but it's called mine

  hunter have you happened to watch I just

  finished it last night

  yeah so no spoilers for mine hunter for

  the listeners but this is a mean plot

  device in

  Hunter is like building up insincere

  rapport yeah criminals the big

  difference there is I feel like in that

  show the FBI agents are talking to

  convicted criminals so I think there's a

  big difference when you talk about

  someone who has already been convicted

  at that point like do you want to build

  up a false rapport with them to get

  information like whatever I don't have a

  lot of problem with that but I do have

  much more of a problem when you're

  talking about someone who is presumed

  innocent someone who is just a suspect

  and yeah I have even more of a problem

  with it when the rapport that you're

  building is all pointing in a particular

  direction so the police officer is

  saying things like well we all get into

  fights with the people we love the most

  and he's like well I've never thought

  about divorcing my wife but I sure have

  thought about strangling her to death

  you know what I mean and it's like

  that's not building rapport that's how

  you start planting ideas in the mind of

  someone going through trauma it seems

  like it's rapport building and if the

  person was guilty maybe it would be

  which is also partly why I selected that

  episode because I feel like of all the

  episodes that is maybe the most

  ambiguous one hmm but it's like it's

  rapport building but it's rapport

  building that's pointing toward

  something so that's why I can't go along

  with it because it's also a person who

  is presumed innocent I mean we discuss

  this issue a bit I always feel like you

  see it in very black-and-white terms I

  don't feel like you sort of see some of

  the shades of grey involved but in some

  ways I think maybe you're right to be

  that way when the stakes are so high and

  it's important that a system retains so

  much integrity so it's it's it's hard to

  argue against you although I think in

  practice like I feel like a lot of

  crimes might go unsolved but I know

  you're kind of you know I'd rather have

  ten unsolved crimes than one falsely

  imprisoned person but yeah I mean again

  this is this is where the criminal

  justice system to me is is the most

  perfect example of this way I think

  about a lot of things in society where

  you can just there are outcomes you want

  and there are dials that you can turn

  on this big machine to try to get the

  outcomes that you want but you don't

  know exactly how far to turn all of

  those dials you don't know where to

  precisely tune them you can only have

  answers about tuning too far in one

  direction or tuning too far in the other

  direction and so yeah I'm particularly

  with criminal justice I'm always leaning

  on the side of if we have to tune too

  far in the direction of letting too many

  people go that is a vastly preferable

  option to convicting innocent people but

  there are shades of gray here but I just

  I I feel like I can't sign below the

  document that says I'm okay with using

  Dark Arts and tricks in the pursuit of

  justice even if you have the most noble

  of police officers behind that pursuit I

  hope you don't use any of these

  techniques on me when you lull me into

  talking about SpaceX and a lot of us

  could get myself into trouble but I'm

  the interviewer here coming alive you're

  the cop you're the cop I uh I could see

  why you'd think that Brady tell me more

  I'm just digging myself deeper and

  deeper yeah can I have an inbox full of

  Elon Musk fans now I'm making casual

  comments about the commercial nature of

  Tesla just unrelated to build rapport to

  you baby listeners don't know that we

  did discuss the commercial interests of

  the world for 20 minutes before we

  started recording coz I was trying to

  Prime I did like that Falcon heavy stuff

  you know I know I know I thought it was

  ghosts don't worry the people no hello

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  show let's talk about hotmail for sir ok

  let's talk about a hotmail okay I

  actually have a lot of thoughts about

  hotmail ok I know I thought you might I

  thought you might so there was a story

  going around the other day about

  insurance companies and profiling they

  were using to set people's insurance

  rates and I think the original story was

  if people had a name that sounded though

  of a certain ethnicity they were having

  higher insurance rates set and that was

  obviously considered quite unfair and by

  most people but

  in the second day as the story rolled on

  it emerged that insurance companies were

  setting higher rates for people who were

  using hot mail addresses than other

  words they thought if you use hotmail

  you're obviously a greater insurance

  risk and you would have to pay higher

  premiums to insure you like car

  insurance or is just like an insurance

  company in general if it's car insurance

  I have a theory about this think it was

  car insurance in the story I read what

  do you think about that profiling by a

  choice of email sex this is kind of

  delightful because I think these stories

  come up with insurance okay isn't it

  this might be the most boring thing to

  ever say but I think it is fascinating

  the constraints that we want to put on

  insurance companies versus their

  actuarial knowledge of the world right

  so if anybody has accurate actuarial

  knowledge of the world it is insurance

  companies they will know correlations

  and expenses that is their their whole

  job but then there is this intersection

  where insurance companies run into the

  real world where we say like oh no no oh

  no no insurance company this correlation

  is not okay you can't use this and I

  feel like insurance companies are just

  at this this real intersection of these

  two things where's like they can know

  things but we forced them to pretend

  like they don't know things well I

  thought was it will get to a point where

  they're no longer like sharing risks

  right well yeah if they become old

  knowing insurance ceases to be insurance

  it just becomes paying first yeah but

  that's exactly like that is the super

  fascinating thing right because the only

  reason insurance exists is because they

  don't know everything but as their

  knowledge increases you are 100% right

  that the insurance company just trends

  toward the cost of the thing right and

  then it's like wait there's no business

  here at all right so is like insurance

  companies can only exist in a world that

  has some amount of in certainty and then

  we want to enforce uncertainty on them

  as well

  like the hotmail thing my total guests

  here for car insurance is that I'd be

  willing to bet that hotmail users trend

  much older on average than the general

  population and I'm gonna say that much

  older people are going to have higher

  rates of car accidents than the general

  that's not true I think older people get

  cheaper car insurance I think it's young

  21 year old males that are most likely

  to wrap their car around a tree and that

  to me is the prime example of do you

  allow an insurance company to do this is

  the teenage boy driving a car if a car

  is going to be destroyed a teenage boy

  is going to do it and this is legal or

  not legal in various jurisdictions to

  say something like can you charge a

  teenage boy higher car insurance and

  some places say yes some places say no I

  was just suspecting that you would also

  have a higher incidence of accident for

  older drivers I'm at least thinking of

  places in America where I'm always

  horrified by people who are like wildly

  unqualified to be drivers who still have

  driver's licenses that is just my theory

  like what might hotmail be correlated

  with I mean you probably are right

  because you usually are but that

  wouldn't have been my guess I hadn't

  thought of hotmail users as being older

  I can see why you would say that but I

  thought it would be more the case that

  they were figuring hotmail users were

  less professional and therefore maybe

  less likely to be very responsible big

  yeah or just like you know anyone who's

  using hotmail has obviously made poor

  decisions in their life so they're going

  to make poor decisions on the road could

  also just be yes I had it since you're a

  boy great yeah no so I've just kept it

  so I do have my hotmail account I do

  have other I do have numerous other no

  of course you do but don't use that when

  you're applying for your insurance right

  that's that's what you don't want to do

  this is another dial of society that I

  don't really know how to adjust because

  in in general I feel like I'm okay with

  insurance companies charging different

  rates to different people but there

  would come a point where it's simply not

  insurance anymore if you just know too

  much about

  everybody so that like there's going to

  need to be something like that but I

  think the hotmail thing is funny and I

  personally don't have any problem with

  it whatsoever I don't know how people

  would react to this but I suspect that

  there are going to be vastly more and

  more things like this that come to light

  through big data analysis and through

  through this kind of thing where some of

  my favorite examples of this are

  innocuous questions you can ask people

  that will very rapidly zero in on things

  like who do they vote for in the last

  election and so you ask people questions

  like do you like dogs better than cats

  and questions like that that seem like

  they have nothing to do with anything

  and if you are picking really well

  chosen questions that have been

  developed from enormous databases of

  people's preferences you can

  surprisingly quickly zero in with a very

  high confidence interval on what did a

  person vote for in the previous election

  or all these kinds of things where again

  like people imagine that they are vastly

  different from other people but then

  they're not like there are patterns that

  exist here

  you know how they traditionally have

  some problems with political polling

  because people aren't always honest

  about who they vote for do you think it

  will ever get to a stage where those

  companies will ring people up and say do

  you like dogs do you like hamburgers

  where do you go on holiday and not even

  ask you who you voted for and say thank

  you very much and say okay Democrat

  voter well I wonder if it'll ever get to

  that point where they just don't trust

  your answer to who do you vote for and

  they use the other stuff to get to the

  truth instead I haven't seen something

  like that I have some come across some

  research which does things like using

  similar methods to estimate voter

  dishonesty right where you are looking

  at some information that you can gather

  about a person and then looking at their

  actual response and you can't know

  obviously perfectly but you can put

  higher or lower confidence intervals on

  was this person reporting the truth and

  it becomes very quickly very unlikely or

  very likely if you can gather enough

  information on this kind of thing so I

  do kind of think that that's the case I

  mean again this is this is much more an

  issue in the United States where you

  have to motivate people to go vote but

  this is this is a real science now of

  trying to drill down to very very

  particular individual people and knowing

  like when do you want to send them stuff

  in the mail to try to motivate them to

  vote and you can do that because you're

  highly confident about who they will

  vote for with the information that

  you're sending so I think that is kind

  of a thing already but either way I

  think insurance companies are gonna be

  at the forefront of this because they

  they are the ones who are at the

  bleeding edge of being able to extract

  value from knowing more and more about

  what data represents about a person's

  actions in the world

  actions in the world

  I like this podcast it's pretty cool and

  if you're someone who met someone who

  knows Brady I can confirm this podcast

  is legit

  Brady and gray have influenced

  real-world events such as the New

  Zealand flag referendum and a poll on

  some radio website or something about

  top audio personalities so rest assured

  reader this podcast is legit five stars

  we've been getting a lot of reviews

  Brady what was that you've met someone

  who knows someone who I don't even get

  that that was your call Brady you wanted

  like acquaintances that your wife was

  talking to when hello internet was

  mentioned in reference to you you wanted

  that person when they went to go look up

  the reviews on iTunes to see that the

  podcast was a big deal I've be crated

  back to myself this is the danger of

  this podcast sometimes when I make

  people oh this and they'll say some line

  at me like and I'll be like what are you

  talking about but you said that the

  things I say on the show you're missing

  out on your own in jokes I say a lot of

  rubbish I can't remember all of it you

  asked for something Brady and to quote

  Henry is cool one on iTunes yep five

  stars for Brady so he looks more popular

  five stars

  I appreciate the five stars yeah we have

  a ton of reviews they're very fun to

  read through and there was a very

  consistent theme through all of them

  have a hello internet reviewed numbers

  going like up high enough you know has

  there been a noticeable bump well I mean

  Brady we're trying to quench your thirst

  for recognition we're trying to feed

  your Hannity here I guess the question

  really it's not for me to answer if the

  reviews are enough I don't know if there

  is any number of reviews that will be

  enough for you look great I will go

  along with being stitched up like this

  and you know because I deserve oh yes

  yes dude stuff I'm pulling this just out

  of the air I'm making up things but if

  they put it in the right context like I

  didn't know the number right I don't

  know the number now it occurred to me

  that if anyone ever goes

  and looks checks will we look like we

  know what we're doing right without even

  having looked myself I just said if you

  haven't left a review go and do it

  because it'll look good for us like I'm

  not there like sitting there watching a

  counter and like keeping a notebook of

  the scores and ringing people up and

  saying have you looked at my reviews

  right it just occurred to me right not

  like the Radio Times contest right where

  that was occurring right no this is

  totally different that kind of got a bit

  out of control but I don't think that

  was my fault either that was a perfect

  storm that was nobody's fault I mean you

  can say what you want Brady

  but according to Raven ho 27 Brady's

  vanity knows no bounds five stars

  I'm just telling you what I'm reading

  here in black and white so when we were

  having the discussion last time there

  was a thing which I did not realize

  which is that iTunes does the counting

  of reviews separately for every country

  or I feel like that's a bit of a strange

  decision to make I don't quite

  understand why iTunes would say that Oh

  UK reviews are going to be in a

  different group than us reviews I don't

  quite understand that they do that

  across the whole platform great cuz when

  I go and look at what the top podcasts

  are it's always like 95,000 BBC podcasts

  which I'll come to in another episode

  sometime because I have thoughts about

  that and then there's like a couple of

  American ones and then that's it it's

  like does anyone else in the world make

  podcasts other than the baby say whereas

  I'm sure in America it's not completely

  dominated by the baby season I can get

  behind the idea of regional

  recommendations waiting a bit of white

  yeah a bit of waiting so when we were

  talking about having whatever it was

  like 600 views I think we were both

  looking at the iTunes U K store and so

  we're now closing in on like 1,100 of

  views on the U case or the US store

  though as you might imagine that's where

  the big explosion occurred because it

  seems like most of our listeners are in

  America or at least the plurality of

  listeners are in America and we went

  from something like I think it was

  somewhere like 2000 reviews to 4333

  reviews on the US store I feel like

  that's quite a bump it's such a bump


  while I am making fun of you for your

  vanity that bump makes it feel like

  10,000 is within our grasp like it's a

  thing that is possible

  Harry's : for the numbers now hey I'm

  just saying look before it never really

  crossed my mind but now it's like oh I

  can see it on the horizon it's not close

  but it's within our grasp Brady so I'm

  looking at this 4,000 number and I am

  finding myself thinking this needs to

  get to 10,000 I said 10,000 as a joke

  but it's a joke that has lodged itself

  in my mind so I can see that like we're

  close there we're close I would be

  willing to bet if you summed up all of

  the different country stores we actually

  probably do have 10,000 are pretty close

  to 10,000 but I feel like that doesn't

  count if your wife's friends

  acquaintances are looking up the show

  they're not going to sum it up that's

  not how that works I would love to see

  it actually hit 10,000 on at least one

  of the stores probably the US store I

  feel like right if we can get to 10,000

  in the UK it'll be like we've cracked

  America that's like every overseas

  entertainers dream isn't it you know

  yeah sure we've done well here in the

  colonies in that but if we can crack

  America we can make it anywhere

  meanwhile we have eight reviews in the

  de poele store

  I'll take her I'll take the I hope we're

  doing well in the pollen I hope you have

  a high five star rating over there I was

  making that up I haven't like set up a

  VPN hidden the poll to see what I mean

  great lady you can on iTunes you can

  scroll down to the very bottom and click

  the little flag and then you can switch

  to a different country to try to see how

  you're doing in different spots all

  right but anyway so yes I have found it

  interesting the reviews make me laugh

  people are always funny on the internet

  but aside from the reviews mocking your

  vanity there was also a very consistent

  theme which is people saying like I love

  this podcast but it's really hard to

  describe why I have no ability to

  describe why I like the show and why I

  listen to it but I really like it five

  stars so I enjoyed those as well I

  sympathize with you people because I

  have the same problem every time I tell

  someone I'd do a podcast oh I do a

  podcast oh what's a code and then I've

  got a let's say hello internet which I'm

  a bit embarrassed about and they like

  are really oh what's that about and then

  I'm like

  it's kind of like nerdy stuff and flags

  I feel like we've lured a lot of like

  vexillology people in under false

  pretenses and we haven't been delivering

  lately I think we need a flag bonanza

  sometime soon I'll see what we can do

  there but in the meantime I couldn't

  help but check and just load it up in

  Nepal store yeah all right what are we

  on let me guess

  I'm gonna go with two you are exactly

  right two reviews in the fall but the

  store is listing us as not having

  received enough ratings to display an

  average for this podcast so get on it

  Nepalese did they write anything one

  review is from Nepal and then they put

  the Nepal flag emoji

  which I feel like is his on point not

  realizing that their review would only

  be displayed in Nepal Nepal we need to

  let's aim for a target in Nepal of eight

  thousand eight hundred years because

  there's the high of Mount Everest in

  meters I can't any think we're gonna get

  past 29,000 which would be in fate for

  it now Freddie that's that's insanity

  don't ask for unreasonable goals don't

  do that

  just the reasonable goals the reason

  we're goals on the horizon so close the

  last time Brady we were discussing the

  airline safety videos and since that

  episode went up I discovered that it is

  still Comic Relief season in British

  Airways comic relief meaning they're

  taking a break from anything funny I got

  to see the video twice the space of like

  eight hours because I ended up flying

  out to the continent and back on the

  same day and I was like oh my god I

  can't believe I can't believe this like

  Here I am

  and as I oh god it's so awful I took a

  little video I put up on Twitter Comic

  Relief season maybe it never ends well

  it's not even Comic Relief year this

  year so they're clearly not bounded by

  any season here they're just going for I

  really resent that video as like the

  kids and watching it anymore but anyway

  the biggest universal piece of feedback

  that I received from people is hey why

  are you watching this anyway why don't

  you just put on your headphones like a

  normal person and not not paying

  attention to this hmm you know what

  that's an excellent point this is

  one of these moments where I realized

  that there is something that I have not

  really weighted in my life which is as I

  have mentioned on the show my mom was a

  flight attendant for many many many

  years and like because of that I always

  felt like when the flight attendants are

  doing the safety demonstration you

  should pay attention because it's rude

  not to pay attention I also feel like I

  something I could be told off for like

  because being at airports and Airlines

  is always a time of like we've talked

  about before you're like hyper

  conscientious mmm you answer all the

  questions you know how have you did you

  pack any scissors no I didn't you were

  very deliberate yeah and I feel like if

  I don't watch the safety video I'm doing

  something wrong and they could like

  throw me off the plane or or worse yet

  tell me off in front of other people hmm

  so I feel like I kind of deliberately

  would take off my headphones and watch

  the video just to be like bit of a goody

  two-shoes and show you the it fly

  attendants that yes I'm doing what I'm

  supposed to do I'm a good person yeah

  there is definitely a part of that

  there's like such a different mindset

  when you're at airports and when you're

  flying it's like you're a different


  any other there is a deliberateness and

  showing that like I'm a person who's

  paying attention yeah you want to be

  sane to do the right thing right I'm in

  the exit row and I'm not a person that

  you have to worry about flight attendant

  I'm a reasonable person I'm not gonna

  cause any problems here I also realized

  that a transfer had happened in my mind

  that when I was a kid and growing up and

  if I was on an airplane with my parents

  you know my mom would like we take out

  the safety card and she look we know

  let's look at where the exits are let's

  make sure you recognize visually where

  the exits are because as she used to

  always say if you like if this plane is

  going down my son is going to survive

  right he's gonna know where the exits

  are he's gonna get out of this and it's

  like okay yeah now if the planes going

  down I'm gonna make sure I'm not one of

  the people who dies on this plane and

  then that's also just paying attention

  to the flight attendants during the

  safety demonstration but they were

  always people when I was a kid and I

  never really thought about it but there

  has been this very slow very gradual

  transition over time too

  the frequency of getting a safety

  demonstration from an actual human going

  down and the probability of watching a

  video going up even on relatively small

  planes where it's been the longer

  holdout that there's a person doing the

  safety demonstration even on the smaller

  planes now it's very very likely that

  you're going to be watching an actual

  video and somehow this transition

  happened so slowly and gradually that I

  feel like the respect that I felt I

  needed to accord a human being

  transferred to the machine that's just

  showing me this stupid comedy video

  that's why the safety videos have

  bothered me is because I've always felt

  like I need to watch this out of some

  kind of respect but I don't think I do


  especially not if they're going to be

  propagandizing me with ten thousand

  viewings of the same unfunny thing I

  feel like you know what safety video

  that doesn't have specifics about this

  airplane anyway I don't need to watch

  you I don't need to pay attention and I

  think if the flight attendant is just

  going to think worse of me because I put

  my headphones on when I don't want to

  watch the safety video I think I'm just

  gonna eat that in terms of social

  respectability I think that's that's

  what's gonna happen going forward that

  observation you makes interesting though

  isn't it because even when they show

  safety videos now on most of the planes

  I've been on the flight attendants will

  still sort of stand in the corridor and

  they might wave their arms once or twice

  in the general direction of an excerpt

  but they always seem to be sort of

  standing there unnecessarily

  maybe that's why they're standing there

  because they're tapping into that old

  emotion that if someone's standing there

  like if they're making the effort you

  have to make the effort and if they just

  went about their business and made

  coffee and sat down and you know checked

  their hair in the mirror you wouldn't

  watch the video but because they are

  standing there and they're making the

  effort you make the effort

  it's probably like a rule I bet that

  they do have to stand there even then

  the number of things that the flight

  attendants are actually doing has

  dramatically decreased oh yeah or maybe

  the one of their jobs is to make sure

  people are watching and that's a good

  place to do it from that's why they

  stand there they must have to stand

  there for a reason I mean the reason is

  not to tell off people with headphones

  on because they certainly don't then I'm

  the only sucker sitting there watching

  the safety video and thinking how God

  not again don't make me watch the joke

  about the sea

  belt one more time they don't tell you

  off if you're wearing your headphones so

  I don't know what you're listening to

  you could be listening to that too yes

  I'm sure that's what I'm doing as I'm

  looking at my iPad with my headphones on

  and clearly writing stuff on the screen

  oh yes I'm I'm making notes on the

  safety video that's that's what I'm

  doing right now I'm certainly not doing

  my crash notes I do just want to be

  clear though that even though I am going

  to pay less attention to the safety

  videos in the future I reserve the right

  to complain about safety videos in the

  future oh yeah reserving the right to

  complain is like the hello Internet my

  motto yeah this is the hello Internet

  subtitle well it sounds like it's time

  to talk about spy sex then hello


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  saving freelancers so much time I'm so

  not looking forward to this

  why not breathing because although I

  will battle on and will not cave to the

  cheer pressure mm-hmm I know I'm gonna

  get okay you know you're waiting in to a

  forest of to your pressure I know how

  people feel about SpaceX and they're

  starting to not like if I say anything

  negative more than they used to so just

  to put it in context at the time of

  recording it's just a day actually I

  think since SpaceX had this historic

  historic moment for the company where

  they did their first launch of the

  so-called Falcon Heavy which is the more

  powerful rocket which can throw things

  further out into space and it's a big

  milestone in the efforts to you know get

  to Mars because you're going to need

  these bigger rockets to get beyond Earth

  orbit yeah my understanding is that this

  is like a cargo rocket that's the idea

  of it is it's it's for transporting a

  non-trivial amount of stuff into space

  yeah I imagine it what can also probably

  transport manned craft I don't know

  where exactly where that's heading but

  what they had in at this time of course

  was this Tesla Roadster car which

  resulted in quite a substantial amount

  of publicity they used Elon Musk's red

  car with a mannequin astronaut at the

  wheel as like their test payload mm-hmm

  and it was all very successful so how am

  I gonna do this gray do I get my gripes

  out the way first or do i do them last

  or do we go chronological or oh I wasn't

  going to watch this live I was aware it

  was happening because of Twitter but I

  was not paying much attention and I

  actually got a phone call from Duke of

  Venezuela and he said are you watching

  are you gonna watch it so I said alright

  I'll watch oh and I watched him he

  didn't call me no I totally missed out

  on this because I was busy watching a

  chick flick at the time I really didn't

  have any idea well I was in the bath

  when he code so I can top that

  by anyway so I watched up I watched the

  livestream along with all the other

  SpaceX diehards and the rest of the

  world and so I'm willing to talk about

  on hello Internet if you were because

  you have watched as well now gray at my

  request haven't you but lately it's been

  a very busy week but yes you sent me the

  video you told me the relevant sections

  to watch and so I I have seen the the

  take off to reveal and the landing part

  of the of the launch mera yet so let me

  say when people criticize things that

  doesn't mean they don't necessarily like

  it gray and I criticize Star Wars all

  day long but where Star Wars fans mm-hmm

  so just because I say negative things

  you know that just happens you know

  that's just part of being a critic right

  which is what we sometimes do but my

  overall feeling watching the launch was

  one of very great excitement more than I

  would have expected partly maybe because

  it was live and I knew you know

  something could go wrong and I felt

  myself really really hoping nothing

  would go wrong mm-hmm

  which is you know nice in itself and

  also for the first time I was sort of

  thinking do you know what we might

  actually go like to Mars and stuff while

  I'm still alive that's a very exciting

  feeling mm-hmm so I was very excited by

  it I thought it it looked fantastic

  they're getting so good at covering

  these things now and coverage has

  improved so much that of course it's

  gonna look fantastic but you know the

  shots were good and the tracking shots

  were good the landing of the two

  boosters when they came back down like

  in sync and landed was remarkable I

  don't think that will ever get old the

  sight of those boosters landing like a

  couple of newborn giraffes trying to

  walk on ice and you think surely those

  things are gonna fall over and they

  stuck it which was amazing I know the

  one out to sea had a big smash and

  didn't land properly but I think that is

  a fantastic looking thing and I think

  that's becoming the new kind of iconic

  image of launchers like in the days of

  Saturn the iconic shot was always you

  know that one with us like a camera on

  the on the gantry and you're really

  close to the rocket and you'd always see

  the fire and the ice falling off and

  you'd see us a go past I know the exact


  you're talking about that is that that

  is the iconic we're flying in a space

  yeah funnily enough I think the iconic

  shot now is those are those boosters

  landing which is funny because it's not

  the launch but I agree that that is

  really impressive and it's way more

  impressive than the launch yeah I found

  watching the launch much more

  interesting than I expected

  it's one of those things where I don't

  really have any sense of scale like I

  don't actually understand what is the

  size of this compared to like a Saturn 5

  rocket I don't understand but on the

  video it just looks huge and it looks

  powerful with all of those boosters it

  should look like a hell of a thing

  taking off but I would say watching the

  two boosters then return to Earth and

  land vertically simultaneously I mean it

  literally gave me chills I thought like

  that is just such a crazy technological

  achievement that it's it's just

  impossible to fathom

  obviously the launch of the payload is

  the part that really matters here but

  the booster landing is incredible and

  it's it's a thing that in our previous

  conversations about SpaceX I feel like I

  didn't really understand at that point

  in time and this one was like wow that

  is amazing to see I don't get all

  excited about it because I think oh wow

  this is gonna make space travel cheaper

  like that's just boring accounting the

  thing that about it that I'm amazed by

  is just how awesome it looks like it

  just looks like made up so good on them

  but just one last thing about the launch

  and the coverage of the launch that I

  watched and this is where I will upset

  some people

  the editorial decision that was made to

  give so much prominence to the cheering

  and hollering of the SpaceX employees

  who were watching this happen which made

  it feel more like a sporting event than

  a scientific moment or an engineering

  moment and I'm not opposed to them

  getting excited and cheering and like a

  lot of people said to me ah it added to

  the drama and I think a little bit of it

  maybe would have added to the drama

  cutting to them occasionally or showing

  them but I thought it was

  too much for me it was laid on too thick

  they were carrying on like a bunch of

  frat boys and from the shots they showed

  they were mainly boys so I don't feel

  bad saying that they were carrying on

  like pork chops at one point I heard

  them go spook spook spooks like they

  were superbowl people drinking from a

  keg before the game for me it was like

  it trampled all over the moment and it

  wasn't like a bit of like controlled

  excitement where the cool heads of the

  of the engineers were saying come on

  everyone let's come down I know you're

  excited but this is like this is serious

  business here

  it was just like hollering and whooping

  and no I thought it was too much and it

  was an editorial decision because they

  deliberately injected it all the way

  through and they were cheering for every

  single step that happened which you know

  because they're engineers I get that

  they're excited and each step was

  another milestone for them okay we've

  now gone to full electronic control

  inside the rocket like come on man this

  is like this is undignified

  you're such a party pooper I'm not

  objecting to their excitement and a

  little bit of it it was very American

  and it trampled all over the moment for

  me and I know how much that upsets

  people because it's all about the

  employees and they had their names

  written on the on the rocket and they're

  the heroes of the day but I don't think

  it was done with a very good Sensibility

  I also would love to know where their

  contingency was if the rocket had blown

  up like were they going to cut that fade

  or were they still going to show those

  people then fall in a heap I'd love to

  know what the plan was but we'll never

  know because thankfully it didn't blow

  up yes thankfully it didn't blow up

  Brady you like space exploration much

  better when it's boring guys and ties in

  Houston not finding a proxy nuclear war

  with the Soviet Union oh well I mean

  obviously I'm a real fan of it but like

  I love the dignity of then they were

  bottling it up because they knew they

  had a job to do and when they got

  excited they be told hang on don't be

  excited there's more to come come on

  well we're professionals we're

  scientists were engineers we know the

  risks here and I know these people

  weren't like on shift

  I was gonna say I don't think this was

  like the people in the night crew yeah

  bunch of people who were standing around

  like it looked like engineers who had

  worked on the thing yeah and and it's

  great that they were made so much a part

  of it I just thought I don't know they

  were turned up to lay out they was laid

  on too thick and it was a bit like can

  everyone just shut up for a minute I'm

  trying to hear what's going on and like

  I don't think they got the balance right

  of that part of the broadcast and here

  we're just talking about cosmetics of

  course this is just the broadcast this

  has got nothing to do with the

  accomplishment or the fate and yes I

  know they're happy and I know they're

  proud and I know they're responsible and

  I know all that stuff but I'm not the

  only one who thought that by the way

  what did you think you watched it what

  did you think I'm laughing because I had

  a bit of a different reaction I was

  aware that there was a ton of cheering

  and that's obviously like an editorial


  I didn't mind because I do think it

  makes it more exciting to watch than if

  they just had the audio feed from

  Mission Control and you were hearing the

  the people who were actually working

  just saying whatever they need to say

  sort of like when we when we've

  discussed the audio logs from plane

  crashes I'm always struck by how

  professional those recordings are and

  how calm the pilots are under

  circumstances where I would be screaming

  and they're just like we're reporting

  the second engine is out on the

  right-hand side it's like oh my god dude

  but that's what you need when it's a

  professional environment right I want a

  playlist who's able to just do that

  because it is like keep it together man

  I'm fine with the yelling in the

  excitement because part of what SpaceX

  is doing here is almost like a

  recruitment video for like future

  engineers for working at SpaceX like you

  want a thing that's exciting so I

  totally get that at one point they had

  two commentators who just start talking

  and then for me that's where am I think

  like stop talking comment are you

  talking over the thing like I don't want

  to hear it whatever user just show me

  the feet I can see it on the screen I

  don't need to talking heads telling me

  that I'm looking at a rocket going into

  space like obviously they turned it into

  a sports coverage I have the hollering

  you know frat boys they've got the

  glitzy good-looking young commentators

  who are sitting there at the day

  giving us some punditry and filling time

  and that they're turning until uh yeah

  it's the Superbowl of space the thing

  that it made me think of it's like this

  is an old rage comic which I wonder if

  anybody can find on the internet it's

  forever old but it always made me laugh

  so hard and it was a comic that somebody

  made when the Royal Wedding happened

  years ago and it shows that like a guy

  who's sitting at home who doesn't really

  care about the Royal Wedding and he just

  turns it on and he's watching it he

  starts getting more and more into the

  Royal Wedding

  and then Katie Couric is doing the

  narration about what's happening on the

  wedding and like the caption has like

  shut the fuck up Katie Couric I just

  want to watch as pretty princess getting

  married that was kind of my feeling with

  the space launch is like when the two

  commentators start talking is like shut

  the fuck up I just want to watch the

  rocket I don't really want to hear your

  comments on this so that's where it

  bothered me more is like the words but

  the cheering I don't know personally I

  can see why some people might think it

  was a bit much because it was a lot but

  the cheering I was okay with I think it

  made it more exciting to watch so I

  can't get with you on this one I would

  have cut to the cheering mm-hmm as it

  lifted off the pad mm-hmm but all the

  other cheering throughout the whole

  process from like three or four minutes

  before to five minutes after it just

  been little de Anna you know what it did

  make it more exciting

  but open-heart surgery would be more

  exciting if you had a thousand people

  cheering as it happened it doesn't mean

  it's like appropriate that's not what

  was really going on the people who are

  making this happened well I just I don't

  know I like the image in my head of

  broadcaster Brady who's managing all the

  live streams for SpaceX and the Rockets

  going up you have your hand on the dial

  for how much crowd cheering we can hear

  and you turn it up as the rocket goes up

  you give it a second dip and then Brady

  turns it down that's enough of that

  people just turns it and I would have

  had okay now's a good time cut to the

  frat boys let's see them jumping up and

  down give them a few seconds well

  include er include them as part of it

  but it just overwhelmed it anyway

  obviously obviously I'm in the minority

  here and so be it let's get to the

  business of the car in space okay all

  right so to the final stage we had

  bolted this Tesla Roadster

  which I didn't realize of course I

  should have realized cuz of course it

  always has to be this way was going to

  like do some laps of the earth before it

  got flung out into the far reaches of

  the solar system mm-hmm and I have a few

  thoughts about it but the first thing I

  have to say is I was not prepared for

  how awesome it would look like when they

  started cutting to those shots and you

  had the live stream of it and like the

  thing was just slowly rotating and the

  earth was just like creeping into shock


  spaceman star man in the red car it was

  like I couldn't stop looking at it and I

  was like like I had to show people I

  would like say to my wife oh my goodness

  you just have to look at this and I'd be

  watching her and she'd be like yeah okay

  I've seen it but like I found it

  completely hypnotic artistically it was

  like it looked impressive yeah I'll

  completely agree with you there this is

  how I was aware the event occurred

  because when I was done watching my

  chick flick and I've turned on Twitter

  realize like what are all these pictures

  is from space of this car like I had a

  weird experience of the pictures look so

  in some sense so strange like I had a

  very hard time understanding out of

  context what is this actually a

  photograph of and so I had to do a

  little bit of digging around about like

  what does this situation actually look

  like not just from the the camera that's

  on the the front of this car like what

  is what is the actual situation that I'm

  looking at but the pictures themselves

  they're very impressive but there's

  almost like sort of like the Maryland

  point where a photo can become so

  impressive it becomes unreal looking

  like I have a hard time looking at those

  photos and thinking of them as real even

  though I know they are it's just like

  I'm looking at a car floating above the

  earth my brain does not process this as

  a real image it looks very strange so

  should they have sent a car to space or

  not yeah of course why not

  what can be the reason to not do well

  here's what I think about it it looked

  amazing as like an artistic project as a

  piece of art I think that warrants it

  like it just you know sometimes you have

  to do something

  I mean musk himself

  sometimes you just have to do something

  because it's fun and a bit crazy hmm

  and I think that completely justifies it

  and I think you know and whether or not

  they sent up sculpture or a bright red

  car with the with an astronaut the wheel

  which was a bit more funny or whatever

  they decided to send up okay they they

  decided to make it an artistic project

  the main argument that burns on the

  internet about this was if they're going

  to spend all that money could they have

  used a payload that had a bit more

  scientific value like they didn't want

  to risk some billion-dollar satellite

  but could they have sent something up

  that was like more useful and that's

  like you know I think your position

  that's clear from your noise I

  understand the reason why people want to

  go down that road

  yeah but they that road never ends okay

  well you could always in theory spend

  more money in a more practical way

  there's a never a time that is not true

  that argument on its own I find never

  convincing oh this money could have been

  spent in a more effective way of course

  all money that could be true so I just

  don't find that interesting I agree with

  you and I think doing something artistic

  and fun is good mm-hmm

  here's the one problem I have with it

  though and that is the muddy water that

  is created by the commercial aspect of

  it because ela must run SpaceX and he's

  got grand plans for it he also runs

  Tesla which is you know losing a bit of

  money at the moment and they're trying

  to make a successful business out of it

  this was fantastic publicity and

  promotion for the Tesla company and I

  think that's where it starts getting a

  bit blurrier between doing something for

  fun and something artistic that just

  tickled the world and inspired people

  which is what it did without question

  it's a very inspiring thing to do and a

  very viral thing to do and in fairness

  to Tesla and Elon Musk I do think they

  showed restraint you know they didn't

  have big bright Tesla signs everywhere

  and make it look too commercial I think

  they showed a lot of dignity in that

  respect the dashboard said don't panic

  it didn't say for 25 percent off your

  next Tesla offer code spaceman right at

  your local dealer right looks like

  that's not what they did

  so yeah there was not an overabundance

  of commercial this year exactly they did

  show restraint but I do think it is

  still a little bit muddy

  I mean he's you know they're paying for

  it themselves it's not I don't know how

  much taxpayer money went into this whole

  thing I don't know if they you know are

  paying the normal rates for the use of

  the NASA facilities or not but you know

  they're paying for it so to some extent

  I'm completely on board with them doing

  what they want with their rocket but you

  do know I worry about the

  commercialization of space and coca-cola

  billboards and things like that and this

  still was a little bit promotional and I

  think that's what left me with a little

  bit of unease about it like you can't

  just say ah I did this for fun because I

  thought it would be funny and I just

  needed some weight there's certainly a

  marketing and promotional agenda at play

  here that is legitimate and no one's

  breaking any rules or anything but it

  just feels a bit like okay yeah I

  selling a few cars while you're there

  are you mate okay so yeah I feel like I

  I don't understand the parameters of

  what you mean by muddied the only

  comparison I could think of here is like

  Steve Jobs being so involved in Pixar

  and Apple and so then you had like cross

  promotion between those companies but I

  feel like at least from what I have read

  about the greater musk Empire like the

  Solar City Tesla and SpaceX are

  companies that are sharing a lot of

  technology between them yeah so there's

  something to me that I just I do not

  think that these companies are as

  separate as normal companies would be so

  I guess I'm just I'm not quite

  understanding what you're saying money

  people complaining about a lack of

  quarantining between his different

  business is it more like the humanity

  star it's just the fact that there's

  like a tesla going around earth I feel

  like this was like a big milestone for

  space exploration certainly that's how

  it's been pitched and having a carrot

  virtus man bolted to the front of it

  feels like cheapening it a bit and by

  the way I'm also well aware that I wear

  an amiga watch that was the one they

  wore on the moon and all the marketing

  involved with it as well say like I'm

  aware this goes back to the days of NASA


  right this was a bit more overt

  obviously a bright red car with a

  mannequin at the steering wheel rather

  than oh we need a watch who are we gonna

  get out what just from it's certainly

  easier to spot on the live stream than

  the bridge I've watched the astronauts

  are wearing when they landed on the moon

  yes that's for sure it just felt

  promotional it's a bit like did you have

  to try and flog your cars at the same

  time too

  don't get me wrong I like the whimsy of

  it and like the fun of it and I'm

  totally on board with that and it

  totally worked on me it totally worked

  on me but at the same time I was

  thinking I yep pocketing a few extra

  bucks there Hey

  yeah let's push the business it's like

  if you know when if Neil Armstrong and

  Buzz Aldrin went to the moon and they

  stuck a flag in the soil and it had the

  General Motors logo on it instead of

  America because General Motors had paid

  them you know five hundred million you'd

  be thinking man that was a pretty

  historic moment to be vlogging cars I

  think that there is something

  interesting about your thoughts here

  that I can't quite grasp why I don't

  agree with you on this and I think like

  so the General Motors one is an

  interesting comparison and it's like I

  agree under that circumstance if they

  got out and they put a GM flag on the

  moon because GM sponsored the NASA space

  flight it would feel like oh that's sad

  but I wouldn't feel that way if in an

  alternate universe of history the United

  States government wasn't actually the

  primary mover and the primary mover was

  GE like an n GE was the entity that was

  doing the space exploration in a much

  more direct way I guess this is partly

  like I don't really care what the entity

  is and in some ways like when NASA does

  a thing they're selling the idea that

  America has nuclear superiority during

  the Cold War and when SpaceX is doing a

  thing they are selling the idea of

  increased cargo capacity to space I

  don't see those things as wildly

  different I'll tell you where the

  problem comes from and I know there's a

  difference here between a businessman

  and a commercial entity and for example

  say governments and politicians right

  but people have a resist

  well some people have a resistance to

  people in positions of great power and

  authority using that to give themselves

  even more and the best example I could

  think of was say you elected a leader of

  a country you know you elected someone

  your president or prime minister and

  they happen to own a bunch of hotels or

  golf courses or something like that and

  when they became leader they started

  using all their facilities and their

  commercial interests in the duties of

  their political office you'd start to

  think hang on you're using that to your

  advantage to feather your own nest and

  like you shouldn't be leveraging that

  position of power yeah and I taught I

  totally agree with you that right like

  that's also a case but that seems much

  more like a like a conflict of interest

  yeah between the role of a civil servant

  and the role of a businessperson I said

  at the start I say a difference but he

  is leveraging a position of great brute

  force and power financial power and you

  know privilege and collaboration with

  the government and things that help

  SpaceX like the SpaceX has a lot of

  government contracts so he's like he's

  got into this position of great power

  and great influence and then bolting his

  car from his other company on the front

  while he's at it

  fear was in this in a similar vein it's

  not the same but it feels in a similar

  vein it's like okay so you've built this

  rocket company and you're getting all

  these government contracts and you're

  like you're launching from a NASA

  facility and that and while you're there

  you're thinking oh let's Chuck a Tesla

  on the front as well because that will

  help my other business it's not the same

  mm-hmm I don't think he's done anything

  well I'm sure he hasn't done anything

  improper he wouldn't have been allowed

  to do it but it just has that feeling to

  it of I came I that's enough enough what

  else do you want to sell while you're at

  it hmm

  that's just a little feeling in the back

  of the head about it I did think it was

  cold though I did love it I did love it

  okay here's a question for you if we

  could go back in time and you're able to

  make the decision about what the payload

  should be would you change it would you

  say I think it would be better if it's

  not a Tesla if it's a different payload

  you know if the decision was totally

  down to you what's happening is like

  Elon Musk has brought you on and an

  advisor and he's saying I may have lost

  perspective on this

  you Brady we all know from the podcast

  yeah you're hugely influential podcast

  that you are the number one fan of space

  what do you think we should do yeah I

  would say to him I think this is a good

  idea I think the visual of a cool sports

  car with an astronaut at the wheel will

  really capture people's imaginations but

  I think I mean he's in an impossible

  position that if you're gonna use a car

  cause he owns a car company but I would

  say to him is there something else that

  would have equal impact and be equally

  clever and funny that hasn't got such a

  direct attachment to you a because of

  the commercial appearance of it and

  because of maybe the slightly

  egotistical appearance of it I'd say to

  him I love the idea I probably wouldn't

  have said to him I love the idea because

  I was wrong I didn't realize how cold it

  would look but now that I do realize how

  cool yet in this scenario you are both

  future Brady who knows how it works and

  Asprey who's doing the advice right so

  my my advice with all this knowledge of

  hindsight would be brilliant idea it's

  gonna really capture people but do it in

  a way that makes you look a bit less

  egotistical in a way that looks less

  like you're trying to do something

  commercial is this something else is

  there another way we could do it and

  achieve all the same good things without

  that kind of akina's to it I don't know

  if I'd have that idea but that's what I

  say they're just listening to that all I

  can imagine is if I was the CEO of

  company and you were my advisor there

  I'd be coming like okay great but I'm

  really busy what is your suggestion if

  you don't have another suggestion we're

  going with this well I'd say can I have

  more than the 30 seconds that gray just

  gave me okay you can have until the next

  episode of hello internet that's how

  much time you I don't astok and that

  achiness like just to put things in the

  right context that achiness is less than

  how fantastic I thought it was like on

  the cosmic scales of this there is no

  doubt that launching a Tesla into space

  means that way more people watch this

  launch than ever would have yes I'm not

  convinced that this actually sells a lot

  of Tesla's but it's sure like I can

  guarantee that there's like increased

  the viewership of the livestream

  50% 60% I bet it is some enormous amount

  this is a concrete load because it just

  makes it such a thing and the subsequent

  coverage yeah I bet you're a hassle cars

  I know people that are looking at the

  cars now as a result and then also just

  increases like the brand awareness so

  which is also probably what the chief

  executive would have laughed me out of

  in the office when I went in there with

  mine is not a commercial Hey are you

  worried let's you work at a company

  you're in the wrong place but yeah the

  the showmanship of it was very good do

  you want to hear my idea okay what's

  your idea if we're gonna be a key in

  about money what do you think of this

  you know how I had that screen on it

  that said don't panic the display on the

  screen I'm assuming that wasn't actually

  being displayed on the screen and it was

  stuck on permanently like I don't know

  the answer to that but my address' is

  that that's like a piece of cardboard or

  something stuck on there with don't

  panic written on her but either way

  right if it is a functioning screen if

  they had some capability to change what

  was written on the screen and every

  second they could put another name on

  there CGP grey Brady Haran dirt from

  various table I'm Jane Smith Cyndi

  Lauper are cycling every second with the

  earth and the background that everything

  and a camera capturing it all and you

  could buy your name on that screen for a

  hundred bucks and you could screen grab

  the moment your name was on the screen

  in the car with the astronaut and the

  earth behind how many do Rick and they

  would have sold a million I mean they

  tell they'd sell a lot obviously you'd

  need an auction for that Brady you

  couldn't just have a flat price for that

  let's just say it's a hundred bucks H

  and they sold a million that make a

  hundred million bucks like this now it

  totally trips my like that's

  disgustingly commercial for you okay

  it's good to know where your line is

  yeah that's why I find this conversation

  interesting because it never really

  crossed my mind about the commercial

  nature of it and I feel like I don't

  feel that for this at all I think it's

  just cool but then it's like oh but if

  you are auctioning screen time with like

  now that cross was my boundary now it's

  too much that's completely what they did

  it's the only difference is they didn't

  auction it he just took it for himself

  with his car

  and gave himself all the screen time

  gave his Carol the screen time it's

  exactly what happened yeah I don't know

  it just feels different this is what

  makes life interesting is it's

  fundamentally impossible to be perfectly

  consistent on all things like that way

  lies madness and in lots of these

  conversations you just have to think

  like why do I think that or like why

  does this feel different and sometimes

  there really isn't any answer I mean

  it's also my professional upbringing

  coming out here and I am aware of that I

  mean I worked for the BBC for a long

  time and the BBC is very sensitive to

  people exploiting its power for

  commercial purposes so if someone calls

  you up at the BBC as a journalist says

  I've got a great idea for a story it's

  about a new car I've made do you want to

  come and make a film about it you very

  quickly have to make editorial judgments

  versus commercial judgments and is this

  person just trying to use the power of

  the BBC to sell cars is this a

  legitimate story so I do have a very

  sensitive radar to this so I guess when

  I see it happening in the world and I

  see people using spotlights to sell

  things which is a perfectly fair thing

  to do and a very American thing to do

  I'm perhaps more sensitive to it and I

  think our you know everyone wants to

  make a buck any bit of spot light or

  camera time as a chance to make a buck I

  feel like this is the perfect time for a

  commercial break this episode of Hello

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  a few jams when it comes time for buying

  presents but but it's not over yet with

  SpaceX there's one last thing that Brady

  wants to talk about with this and what

  is that Brady well I have been unable to

  get the answer to this definitively and

  I think it's because basics are

  deliberately being obscure about it

  obviously the car was bolted on to the

  stage of the rocket it had to be be

  when it was going around the earth it

  still had to do another big blast off to

  start it's huge or but through the solar

  system out towards the asteroid belt but

  obviously all the camera angles were

  quite artfully cropped so that we never

  actually saw any part of like that stage

  really did we most of the angles the

  idea was to make it look like the car

  was on his own because that was a better

  shot and I'm alright with that you know

  that's just prettiness and now obviously

  it's done it's big burn and it's going

  out now towards the orbit of Mars and

  beyond as it starts this eternal loop

  around the solar system it hasn't been

  made entirely clear to me whether or not

  the car has been separated from the

  rocket after the rocket burn happened I

  suspect it hasn't been although if you

  look at the official Tesla animation of

  this whole thing the car is drifting on

  its own out towards Mars because that's

  like a beautiful thought isn't it that

  the cars driving on its own with David

  Bowie playing and things like that I

  don't know I don't know the answer yet

  it's interesting comparing how SpaceX

  treats this stuff compared to NASA I

  mean NASA drowns you in detail and tells

  you every single little thing that's

  happening to the point that it's almost

  overwhelming and too much detail and

  SpaceX of obviously are coming at it a

  lot of the time from a more pyaari

  standpoint and what looks good and what

  sells well and I think the boated nosov

  the car to the rocket stage is a really

  good example of this

  they're very silent on it and this is

  where you see the PR coming into things

  more this was the thing when I was

  mentioning before that the image seemed

  unreal was my number one question upon

  seeing those images was what it exactly

  is the physical situation here because I

  don't understand and I hadn't seen the

  launch at that point so I thought oh

  everybody who's seen the launch must

  just know and I don't have any

  perspective on it so I went googling

  around and trying to find it and I was

  really aware of the same thing like I

  can't find any information on is the

  Tesla just on its own or is it connected

  to something I couldn't quite find it

  and eventually in some reddit thread

  somewhere someone linked to this image

  which I don't think is an official image

  at all but they were trying to explain

  what the situation is and the thing that

  I have just sent Brady to look at

  shows that the Tesla is mounted on the

  top of a rocket almost like if you

  imagine if you had like a trophy at home

  someone was giving you a Tesla trophy

  there would be a base and then a

  narrower part for the trophy and then

  they would have a Tesla on the top of it

  that's what it looks like and when I was

  watching the livestream

  after having seen this image I could see

  that they show the rocket launching and

  then there's a very strategic moment

  where the livestream switches to a map

  they start playing the spaceman music

  and then it comes back and it just shows

  the Tesla as though it's floating in

  space and what I think happened there is

  that they blew the hood off the top of

  the rocket so that the Tesla is now

  exposed to outer space and then all of

  the camera angles are just from the side

  or just from the front so that you don't

  see the rocket that the Tesla is

  actually connected to and thinking about

  it it has to be connected to the rocket

  for that into the orbit and if it's

  connected to that Rockets like well

  where's that rocket going to go if it's

  pushing the Tesla it's just going to be

  right behind the Tesla I don't think

  there's any point in separating them so

  I mean you would there would be things

  you would separate just so I'm clear on

  what I'm saying here I don't think

  they've been particularly unclear about

  what happened when it was circling

  around the earth mm-hmm and I've just

  sent you and link to a picture that Elon

  Musk himself put on Instagram that shows

  like the mounted trophy car that's never

  been a secret and the fact that they

  just had all the camera angles cropped

  so that it makes a better photo to show

  in the car in space I can live with that

  why make a messy photo showing the rest

  of the rocket when you don't need to the

  thing I'm less clear about is it would

  be common to do like an injection burst

  to leave the Earth's orbit and then

  leave your rocket behind hmm that's what

  they have to do with probes like you

  know the telescope's that they send out

  far into space as well they eventually

  have to get rid of that huge hulking

  rocket behind and you have a payload

  separation so I thought it was possible

  this just like a tiny tiny little rocket

  or charge or something that will give

  the car an extra push

  and the rocket will like eventually

  start trailing behind that's what you

  would normally do because all the

  imagery and the official animations

  basics shows the car on its own like

  drifting past Mars and the cars on its

  own now it's no longer bolted to the top

  of the rocket but that they didn't show

  that happening and I haven't showed it

  happening they don't talk about it I

  don't think it's like a conspiracy or

  anything like that I just think from PR

  reasons they don't want the image that

  we all have to be a car stuck to a

  runner for a million years going through

  space so they want us to be thinking

  it's just the car with the astronaut on

  its own and whether that's the case or

  not I still don't know maybe there is

  the case it's suspiciously quiet to me

  it may be by the time this podcast goes

  out I'll know differently you know I'll

  do a Mia culpa but I think they're being

  a little bit

  pyaari at the moment yeah at the time of

  the recording it is unclear to both of

  us what the final situation is for this

  Tesla in space for millions of years

  someone just sent me a tweet there cuz

  I've been tweeting about this today

  someone just sent me a tweet from a

  tweet and a retweets I don't know how

  legit this is but it sounds legit

  already though someone with a bluetick

  tweeted I now have confirmation that the

  Tesla remains attached to the Falcons

  second stage which is being observed by

  asteroid experts it makes sense he'd

  want to attached to the main rocket

  because it'll be easier to track and all

  that sort of stuff but I'm becoming

  increasingly convinced until Elin must

  tweets me back and tells me otherwise

  that don't have an image of this car

  floating through space on its own there

  is a hulking great rocket stage attached

  to the bottom of it again doesn't matter

  still awesome still made nice photos but

  it shows an interesting difference

  what's going to happen now with

  commercial space exploration

  NASA's always is transparent almost to a

  fault aren't they they tell you too much

  and the commercial guys are going to be

  a lot more will just show you what we

  think is gonna get us the most retweets

  well Brady now so once those retweets to

  you know they do yeah that's true

  everybody wants to retweet oh yeah

  forgot about the kids spider-man gate

  okay let's keep the retweets you know my

  little nephew listens to the podcast

  he's like you

  bedtime thing right I was with him

  recently and we were talking about when

  uncle Brady spoke on the podcast about

  spider-man in space and he was like I

  think he said something along the lines

  of I really wanted to see spider-man in

  space sounds really cool

  I sort of smugly to smile to myself and

  thought well he's just a little boy he

  doesn't really understand what we're

  talking about on the podcast does he and

  I'm like yeah it looks pretty cool

  doesn't it what do you think uncle Brady

  thought about that and he just looked at

  me really solemnly and said you didn't

  like it ago but I think it's good he

  knew exactly what I was complaining

  about but he's stupid it was awesome

  put me in my place

  uncle Brady party pooper so Brady I've

  been getting into a lot of documentaries

  lately yeah and I recommended one to you

  to watch and I understand that you

  you've seen an episode of it and this is

  the Netflix documentary called the

  confession tapes hmm it's about this

  thing that we have touched upon on the

  show which is my belief in the frailty

  and the easily manipulated nature of

  human memories and his documentary

  series it's like a series of TV shows I

  thought it was very very interesting to

  see but what they're doing in each

  episode is they're talking about a trial

  where it is believed that the defendant

  has submitted into evidence a false

  confession for one reason or another I

  find this stuff personally horrifying on

  a variety of levels and I thought you

  might want to watch it before the show

  did you think it was good I watched one

  episode I watched episode three the

  third one on your advice and yes it was

  it was pretty good thought it was

  alright I don't know why that episode

  was the one you decided to recommend to

  me I'm sure you'll tell me but I love

  this stuff by the way and I'm gonna

  watch all of them cuz I find it

  fascinating but I do feel like I'm

  getting a little bit jaded by like

  criminal stuff and podcasts and

  documentaries is all the rage at the

  moment it's everywhere you look and this

  sort of wrong

  convicted people thing has become a big

  since cereal has become a real big thing

  and everyone loves jumping on her and as

  far as those things go I thought this

  one that you got me to watch was a

  pretty standard run-of-the-mill an

  exceptional case that made me a little

  bit yeah

  I wasn't outraged by it didn't move my

  emotional needle very much but I thought

  it was well made and good and it's made

  me wanna watch more and I guess in some

  ways the typical blender solvent maybe

  is a good reason that you chose me to

  watch this one because it was so typical

  of this sort of forced confession thing

  but yeah I wanted to mention it because

  I feel like it didn't have any

  particular special circumstances some of

  the other episodes have particularly the

  first one which is a two-parter have

  what I regard as somewhat appalling

  special circumstances with regards to

  confessions yeah but in this episode it

  is that like here is how just a normal

  person gets sucked into this thing it's

  a guy whose girlfriend is killed in a

  bar and then the bar is set on fire and

  he's brought in to the police and as

  these things go the police start

  questioning him and he eventually gives

  a confession which he says is a false

  confession there are a couple of things

  that I was just thinking about watching

  this and and you say that crime stuff is

  very popular like it's very zeitgeist II

  at the moment and it's like man people

  sure do you love crime it's a thing I'm

  aware like if I'm in a bookstore mo he's

  always aware of like oh there's a whole

  section which is just called true crime

  which is a thousand books alright just

  about criminal stuff and yeah it feels

  like there's an overabundance of crime

  podcasts that exist in the world but

  this is a thing that I I still wonder

  about is does the average person really

  have any idea about false confessions or

  how unreliable human eye witness

  testimony is and in this episode in

  particular one at one of the jurors

  makes a few comments about not being


  of things are simply not believing like

  well someone had a confession like how