The Accidental Tech Podcast

253: I Think I Ordered One

 

  percent off your first purchase make [TS]

  your next move with a beautiful website [TS]

  from Squarespace I actually had a call [TS]

  with Apple PR last week about the iMac [TS]

  Pro after we recorded what did you get a [TS]

  call Casey I didn't get a call I did not [TS]

  get to go out of course I didn't get a [TS]

  call I mean come on you sound like the [TS]

  biggest of iMac Pro fans in the fray [TS]

  they would call Casey you know yeah [TS]

  Casey has a review unit that would be [TS]

  that would be the ultimate trol oh my [TS]

  god that would that be amazing but no I [TS]

  have received no calls of any sort I am [TS]

  I am not special well anyway they reach [TS]

  out to me and said they wanted to [TS]

  schedule a call I was very pleasantly [TS]

  surprised and so I prepared some [TS]

  questions and I you know didn't know [TS]

  what to expect but it was really nice it [TS]

  was really you know pretty pretty open [TS]

  pretty laid-back I mean you know and to [TS]

  just set the the expectations a little [TS]

  bit like sometimes people will get mad [TS]

  at you know like somebody like like when [TS]

  John grouper has his podcast where he'll [TS]

  occasionally have an Apple executive on [TS]

  some people get mad that he doesn't ask [TS]

  certain questions like things like you [TS]

  know when's the next Mac Pro coming cuz [TS]

  like you know the reality is like apples [TS]

  not going to tell you about future [TS]

  products it's kind of a waste of a [TS]

  question like if you're only given a [TS]

  limited amount of time it's a waste of [TS]

  time to ask them questions they are [TS]

  unlikely to answer or Lord likely to [TS]

  give you the answer you want you know [TS]

  like it's so like asking about like when [TS]

  future products are coming or really [TS]

  asking anything about future products is [TS]

  a waste of time so I didn't I'm sure [TS]

  someone's gonna be mad and write in [TS]

  because of something I didn't ask but [TS]

  that was generally there might be things [TS]

  I just didn't think about but generally [TS]

  there were a lot of things that I didn't [TS]

  ask because the real question even if it [TS]

  wasn't a phrase a certain way you can [TS]

  tell the real question is really about a [TS]

  future product so for example like I [TS]

  wanted to ask about like you know why [TS]

  are there so many USB a ports and a card [TS]

  reader on the back but I knew like [TS]

  that's really a question about the [TS]

  MacBook Pro that was my question you did [TS]

  so you didn't ask that was my first [TS]

  thing to ask you you didn't ask my [TS]

  question I actually did kind of ask it [TS]

  but I didn't get the response that was [TS]

  like well you know our Pro customers [TS]

  hated the MacBook Pro like no it wasn't [TS]

  like that it was basically explaining [TS]

  like you know [TS]

  we offer the ports as many as we could [TS]

  for a pro customers it's like that kind [TS]

  of thing ya know that's what that's that [TS]

  question there's those type of questions [TS]

  because you can't ask them about future [TS]

  things you can only ask them about the [TS]

  product so basically that's that's the [TS]

  only way you ever you mean anything is [TS]

  to say why does product that you're at [TS]

  that we're talking about right now have [TS]

  a feature right so right why doesn't it [TS]

  you can't even say why does the iMac Pro [TS]

  have USBA ports and the MacBook Pro [TS]

  doesn't you have to just say I noticed [TS]

  there's a lot of USB 8 ports in the back [TS]

  why are those there or like why does it [TS]

  have them and like in to give them the [TS]

  opportunity to give their canned PR [TS]

  answer and if they don't have a camp [TS]

  your answer because I thought you know [TS]

  whatever ask that then they have to [TS]

  think on their feet and maybe you get a [TS]

  little bit of insight but sometimes [TS]

  there may be very forthcoming about you [TS]

  know like they could say there's some [TS]

  specific customers that we talk to that [TS]

  really important USB or peripherals and [TS]

  we thought like you never know what [TS]

  they're gonna say and that's the way to [TS]

  get get legit information out of it you [TS]

  just have to know how to phrase it not [TS]

  as this computer doesn't have them what [TS]

  is the iMac Pro have them because that's [TS]

  not going to put them in the right frame [TS]

  of mind to give you any good info right [TS]

  exactly anyway it's very clear that they [TS]

  really are very heavily focused on [TS]

  developers for this machine you know it [TS]

  wasn't immediately obvious when the PR [TS]

  first came out like on whatever day it [TS]

  was that all the all the embargoes that [TS]

  said on that like the first week review [TS]

  units it wasn't incredibly obvious then [TS]

  because everything that came out first [TS]

  was all like youtubers and so we all [TS]

  thought myself included like wow they [TS]

  just gave it to youtubers that's kind of [TS]

  I guess that's understandable but then [TS]

  as it turned out like later that day we [TS]

  saw a bunch of like tweets and blog [TS]

  posts many of which were from developers [TS]

  and it's very clear that they actually [TS]

  were reaching out to lot developers for [TS]

  this and developers just aren't that [TS]

  good at like you know being at minute [TS]

  one after an embargo and stuff like that [TS]

  because developers are not [TS]

  you know usually reviewers or [TS]

  journalists so that's you know it's kind [TS]

  of like trying to coordinate cats to all [TS]

  do something [TS]

  well I still believe the cats are all a [TS]

  hive mind and they're all the same cat [TS]

  just different visions of the same cat [TS]

  yeah very strong focus on developers [TS]

  here they really you could tell that [TS]

  they worked with lot of developers and [TS]

  development they talked to a lot of [TS]

  developers they clearly cared a lot [TS]

  about developer needs because a lot of [TS]

  these are gonna sell to high-end [TS]

  developers they're gonna sell [TS]

  - you know just people like me who are [TS]

  willing to spend the money on a very [TS]

  very fast machine for our app [TS]

  development they're gonna sell to you [TS]

  know VR developers you know hopefully [TS]

  and you know high end developers content [TS]

  creators and cetera so like they were [TS]

  very concerned about making sure that [TS]

  this was a good machine for developers [TS]

  and I really respect that and even [TS]

  though you know it's kind of I'm a [TS]

  little bit biased and that because I'm a [TS]

  developer and this worked out for me [TS]

  because they wanted to talk to me [TS]

  so obviously I'm a little bit biased but [TS]

  I thought that was a really good angle [TS]

  they seemed sincere about it they seem [TS]

  like they've really done their homework [TS]

  then their diligence and done their [TS]

  research and for instance like one of [TS]

  the things was that 10 core they find is [TS]

  is the most ideal configuration for most [TS]

  developer workflows and they know this [TS]

  because they actually did tests and you [TS]

  know work of people and figured out what [TS]

  people do and and were able to tell that [TS]

  like usually after about the 10 core [TS]

  mark the you know today's tools tend to [TS]

  not use many of the cores after that or [TS]

  your bottlenecked by other things like [TS]

  i/o so that made total sense one of [TS]

  these I asked about because you know [TS]

  last show we had a lot of discussion [TS]

  about the thermal design of the iMac Pro [TS]

  and and about the idea that they were [TS]

  down clocking the the two base CPUs [TS]

  violate 10% or something at their base [TS]

  clocks and we're kind of saying you know [TS]

  John had a lot of thoughts about it and [TS]

  kind of saying like you know why drop [TS]

  down the performance to fit in the [TS]

  enclosure that nobody was asking you to [TS]

  fit it in so I asked a lot about this [TS]

  and they were pretty unwavering about [TS]

  that they didn't like cram it in here [TS]

  unnecessarily they tried to see if they [TS]

  could fit workstation components into [TS]

  this case and they could you know they [TS]

  did a lot of redesigning of the thermal [TS]

  so like because there is no 3.5 inch [TS]

  disc offered in the iMac Pro that frees [TS]

  up a pretty large block of pretty [TS]

  premium space right in the middle and [TS]

  and you know the screen I have just [TS]

  compared to the in terms of my Mac are [TS]

  huge and it certainly does seem like [TS]

  they have filled a lot of that space [TS]

  with like heatsink basically because it [TS]

  certainly has a massive heatsink [TS]

  apparatus back there from the pictures [TS]

  so the the impression I got from this [TS]

  question is that [TS]

  they didn't have to compromise to fit [TS]

  the workstation parts into this case [TS]

  they designed it it fit and there seems [TS]

  to be Headroom which I get to in a [TS]

  little bit so what do they say about the [TS]

  down clocking we had some feedback about [TS]

  that so this is the base CPUs that you [TS]

  talked about but there's also the GPUs [TS]

  which I didn't know whether they were [TS]

  down clocking and I speculated that [TS]

  maybe they'd be 90% down but someone [TS]

  emailed the show to say there are [TS]

  actually 83% down clock versus what they [TS]

  would be like if you took that same card [TS]

  and put it in a PC and so and also one [TS]

  other bit of feedback about down [TS]

  clocking specifically the GPUs again I [TS]

  don't know if the provenance of this [TS]

  information is sound or not but someone [TS]

  emailed it to suggest that AMD has been [TS]

  optimistic with the clock speeds and [TS]

  that really if you run them at the [TS]

  quote-unquote rated speed it shortens [TS]

  their life and Apple cares more about [TS]

  them so that they just by you know they [TS]

  just always run them slightly down [TS]

  clocked anyway just because if they [TS]

  don't they'll have reliability problems [TS]

  I don't know if that's crash can't fall [TS]

  out or just total BS or just speculation [TS]

  or whatever but anyway all we know is [TS]

  the the numbers we can look at and [TS]

  apparently if you buy this exact card [TS]

  from AMD and it's on a player card slot [TS]

  the iMac is running them 83 percent [TS]

  slower which is you know not not [TS]

  insignificant so when they say can we [TS]

  fit it yes they could fit it but if you [TS]

  can fit it by down clocking and using [TS]

  slower speed things did you really fit [TS]

  it or did you have to compromise them [TS]

  something like I feel like their answer [TS]

  to you is just rephrasing the question [TS]

  like why did you fit everything inside [TS]

  the case we wanted to see if we could [TS]

  fair yeah but why well I didn't like [TS]

  what the real question is why didn't you [TS]

  make a new case and that the reason [TS]

  there was like old we didn't want to [TS]

  spend that much money on it it would be [TS]

  a lot of design time we wouldn't you [TS]

  know like there's other reasons that [TS]

  they're probably not going to tell you [TS]

  of why they didn't design a new case [TS]

  because surely it is faster to market [TS]

  and cost them less money in less time [TS]

  and less everything to use the same [TS]

  external design probably well that I was [TS]

  gonna say they get to use the same visa [TS]

  mounts but they did change that part of [TS]

  the case so I don't know it's still [TS]

  slightly mysterious to me but anyway [TS]

  that from as far as we can tell you take [TS]

  those same parts and put them in an ugly [TS]

  boxy PC and you can get them all to run [TS]

  at fast [TS]

  speeds or use hi urban parts yeah I mean [TS]

  the the GPU I honestly I I don't have [TS]

  any qualifications to talk about GPUs so [TS]

  I didn't ask really anything about them [TS]

  because I don't know any much GPUs but [TS]

  on the cpu part as a guru points out a [TS]

  lot like Apple doesn't usually lie like [TS]

  you know they'll spin things a certain [TS]

  way if they want to but they don't [TS]

  usually outright lie like usually if [TS]

  they tell you a straight out answer that [TS]

  is the truth so and in this case like [TS]

  they were very clear that like they [TS]

  didn't need to change the case and and [TS]

  there's some thermal stuff that that [TS]

  I'll get to in a few minutes that that I [TS]

  think probably supports that theory if [TS]

  it ends up being you know panning out [TS]

  that way on the subject of the CPU down [TS]

  clocking so I did some research before [TS]

  the call and I discovered that it's only [TS]

  the eight and ten core that are down [TS]

  clocked from there like retail speeds [TS]

  from the retail parts the the 14 and 18 [TS]

  are identical they are all overrated at [TS]

  the same TDP to the same heat capacity [TS]

  of 140 watts they all are the same the [TS]

  eight and ten core chips are special [TS]

  chips that were made by Intel just for [TS]

  apples OEM use here that's why they even [TS]

  have different model numbers they they [TS]

  have a B on the end and they're like [TS]

  slightly different numbers than their [TS]

  counterparts if you look at all into the [TS]

  Wikipedia table that lists all this all [TS]

  this guy like Zeon's so you can see like [TS]

  there these are special chips that are [TS]

  only used in you know by Apple and only [TS]

  so far only in the iMac Pro and their [TS]

  answer to that was basically like you [TS]

  know you know they are they are the [TS]

  custom part from Intel and that's just [TS]

  how the how the clock speeds bend out [TS]

  for these chips one of the things they [TS]

  wanted to make sure of is that all of [TS]

  the processors that are available in the [TS]

  iMac Pro have the same avx-512 [TS]

  processing capacity these are the new [TS]

  instructions that are I think new to [TS]

  these chips or at least a new to the [TS]

  current generation of Zeon's these are [TS]

  super high high-end like vector [TS]

  instructions for certain types of math [TS]

  that can be very well optimized some of [TS]

  the Zeon's that are in this family only [TS]

  have one compute unit the high-end ones [TS]

  have two Apple made sure that all of [TS]

  theirs have to that being said I looked [TS]

  at the specs for the corresponding parts [TS]

  that are slightly higher clocked and [TS]

  they have to also so I'm not entirely [TS]

  sure [TS]

  what that means right now that could be [TS]

  it could have been a later change in the [TS]

  in the release cycle for Intel where [TS]

  they decided to put two on those or it [TS]

  could have been referencing different [TS]

  parts they could have used but didn't [TS]

  but the important thing that I got from [TS]

  the call is that they didn't see see [TS]

  this has an artificial lowering of the [TS]

  clock speed this is just how they were [TS]

  bent out for their custom part and they [TS]

  made sure their custom parts all had the [TS]

  same avx-512 dual processing units so [TS]

  let's custom about them besides the [TS]

  besides the AVX stuff I don't know I can [TS]

  ask them I mean that you know they [TS]

  they're friendly they'll probably answer [TS]

  an email if I ask them so I think our [TS]

  concerns about the thermals are probably [TS]

  unwarranted because what I heard from [TS]

  them which confirms what I heard from [TS]

  other people who were at their demos or [TS]

  who've had a review units so far it [TS]

  sounds like there is a lot of thermal [TS]

  Headroom they had certain demos at these [TS]

  events that were running on loops all [TS]

  day long that were stressing all the CPU [TS]

  cores at like 60% or higher all the time [TS]

  and that you couldn't even really hear [TS]

  the fan and and what I was told [TS]

  it basically is that the way the [TS]

  thermals work out in this generation [TS]

  that you can hammer the CPU is pretty [TS]

  hard and you probably won't hear the fan [TS]

  spin up you will pretty much only hear [TS]

  it get loud if you're hammering the CPUs [TS]

  and the GPUs and actually and this [TS]

  actually is plausible to me because this [TS]

  is actually not that different from how [TS]

  the sky like laptops work this is the [TS]

  sky like and I and what is the ivy [TS]

  bridge but I already forgot to forget so [TS]

  the current laptop generation compared [TS]

  to the the old one that I'm still [TS]

  holding on to is way quieter under CPU [TS]

  load it doesn't spin up for nearly as [TS]

  you know as long you know and and you [TS]

  know it cools down much faster and [TS]

  everything else so given that these are [TS]

  the Zeon's from the skylake family that [TS]

  actually I think makes sense that's [TS]

  believable to me and it does seem like [TS]

  they've designed this with a lot of [TS]

  thermal Headroom so for the moment [TS]

  having not used one of these yet having [TS]

  our own one of these yet it does sound [TS]

  like they are not concerned about [TS]

  thermals and all the demo units and all [TS]

  the review units out there so far have [TS]

  shown pretty awesome thermal thermal and [TS]

  noise performance so so far it seems [TS]

  tentatively [TS]

  like it might be pretty awesome on the [TS]

  thermal and heat front and therefore [TS]

  that also supports their position that [TS]

  these aren't really down clocked for [TS]

  meaningful performance reasons well you [TS]

  keep excluding the GPU because you [TS]

  didn't want to talk about but it's [TS]

  happen or than half of the heat in here [TS]

  and certainly half of the equation like [TS]

  if the if this info from is is just from [TS]

  a listener because I don't know though [TS]

  the clock speeds of this Jeep unit stuff [TS]

  but if if these GPUs really are at 83% [TS]

  of the clock speed that if you were to [TS]

  buy the same card and put it in a PC and [TS]

  get the fastest one like why would you [TS]

  choose to do that if you got the thermal [TS]

  Headroom it doesn't you know especially [TS]

  if it's like literally the same part [TS]

  down clock to not just been differently [TS]

  for pricing thing like I don't quite [TS]

  understand how that math works out so it [TS]

  sounds like for the CPU we have some [TS]

  good information on it and certainly [TS]

  you've been doing things the stress of [TS]

  CPU and it seems like there's plenty of [TS]

  room but kind of like in the trashcan if [TS]

  you happen to do something that uses [TS]

  them both at once what does that do to [TS]

  things like you know why the explanation [TS]

  for why the the CPUs are down clock like [TS]

  oh that's just how they bend out and [TS]

  maybe they had to be slower clocked [TS]

  because they've got the two AVX units [TS]

  and the normal ones that size didn't [TS]

  that kind of make some kind of sense [TS]

  right but why on the other side of the [TS]

  case where the other fan is blowing into [TS]

  you know what it likes when both hands [TS]

  are rolling through the same heatsink [TS]

  but anyway on the other side of the case [TS]

  where the GPU is why if that if that [TS]

  stuff actually has clocked down and by [TS]

  the way if you're if you know the exact [TS]

  clock speeds of like the the GPUs CPU [TS]

  and memory buses please send it to the [TS]

  show like that doesn't match up with the [TS]

  idea that there's plenty of thermal [TS]

  Headroom because especially like on the [TS]

  high end part why wouldn't you run those [TS]

  that they're full speed yeah and [TS]

  honestly I again I just I don't know [TS]

  whether they're whether from at full [TS]

  speed or not I I will say they're like [TS]

  you know they didn't nothing they said [TS]

  indicated that it couldn't handle [TS]

  stressing both the CPU and GPU just that [TS]

  you'd be more likely to hear it yeah I [TS]

  don't know I would imagine the demos [TS]

  that they should actually did stress [TS]

  both of them you know we haven't been [TS]

  there for the demos but I think the [TS]

  demos probably did stress both the GPU [TS]

  and the CPU so maybe those are a good [TS]

  example and you know and maybe again [TS]

  they traded the quiet for like look if [TS]

  we if we clock this it at 83% of max [TS]

  speed we can just be quiet all the time [TS]

  them [TS]

  or Wyden isn't that a better pro [TS]

  experience then allowing it to get noisy [TS]

  you know for this particular case [TS]

  because maybe some people are using [TS]

  applications that are stressing both of [TS]

  them all the time and it's not a great [TS]

  experience for the pro Mac whose fans [TS]

  you can't escape by putting it under the [TS]

  desk to be noisy like I can I can come [TS]

  up with all sorts of reasons why they [TS]

  can explain this because again this is [TS]

  the the compact pearl machine it's not [TS]

  it's not the Mac Pro right side Adam I [TS]

  don't know which those of those [TS]

  explanations that I could come up on on [TS]

  my own is the right one if any you know [TS]

  and maybe III think what you know what [TS]

  you said about kind of like hitting like [TS]

  a constant load minimum heat performance [TS]

  kind of thing that might be related to [TS]

  the way the CPUs are clocked because it [TS]

  I think it says something that these all [TS]

  have the same TDP so like when driven [TS]

  fully like at maximum all the core [TS]

  stressed they will all cap out at the [TS]

  same heat output at all the core counts [TS]

  however only the bottom two chips had [TS]

  their base clocks reduced from from the [TS]

  Intel retail parts so maybe it really is [TS]

  like a heat and noise thing because the [TS]

  way turbo boost works you know that with [TS]

  all the all modern Intel chips like if [TS]

  it has thermal Headroom it will increase [TS]

  its its clock speed until it hits a [TS]

  certain maximum that it won't go past or [TS]

  until it starts getting too hot or until [TS]

  certain until like more cores get [TS]

  engaged and then it's just it starts to [TS]

  reduce the overall sealing on them so [TS]

  that keeps below that threshold but it [TS]

  doesn't ever go below the base speed and [TS]

  what the and and the turbo clock is [TS]

  reduced went on those two that they've [TS]

  modified the eight and ten core they did [TS]

  reduce the turbo boost max speed as well [TS]

  so I don't know what that means in this [TS]

  in this theory but by reducing the base [TS]

  clock it's still gonna turbo up a lot [TS]

  when it's in use but it's gonna run at [TS]

  the reduced base clock speed when it's [TS]

  not doing heavy lifting and so maybe [TS]

  that is primarily there for you know [TS]

  lower noise and heat when it's most of [TS]

  the time doing pretty light work [TS]

  so really all of our well maybe not all [TS]

  but a lot of our qualms from last [TS]

  episode may be a little premature yeah I [TS]

  mean yeah the answer really is we don't [TS]

  really [TS]

  no yet until until we really get these [TS]

  machines until I get this machine but [TS]

  although well I'll get to that in a [TS]

  minute but uh until I really get these [TS]

  machines we really can't be incredibly [TS]

  sure about any of these things [TS]

  I am hopeful now with you know after [TS]

  having this call and also having you [TS]

  know heard from the reviewers and the [TS]

  people who were at these events it [TS]

  doesn't sound like there's reason to be [TS]

  concerned about the thermals yet and [TS]

  that's pretty promising I I'm very happy [TS]

  to hear that because that was my big [TS]

  concern going into this it seems like [TS]

  there's a lot of headroom and that they [TS]

  didn't need to make the case bigger and [TS]

  make it full of holes like what john [TS]

  wanted so we'll see if that if that [TS]

  actually pans out but III think it's [TS]

  plausible I asked a few more things kind [TS]

  of like side notes here on the t2 one [TS]

  thing I thought was very interesting is [TS]

  that it is indeed the SSD controller [TS]

  like it is the disk controller and in [TS]

  all of the configurations not just the [TS]

  four terabyte one it uses dual SSD [TS]

  modules and I use them parallel for [TS]

  performance and so even if the fight [TS]

  even if you get the terabyte that's just [TS]

  using two 512 and with the t2 [TS]

  controlling it you know that it isn't it [TS]

  isn't abstracted to the OS as to disks [TS]

  the way if you just plug in like a two [TS]

  disk enclosure without any kind of raid [TS]

  functionality it shows it but to this it [TS]

  isn't like that it shows up as one disk [TS]

  the controller shows it as one device [TS]

  but behind the scenes it is actually [TS]

  using two in parallel it's one of the [TS]

  reasons why they're so freaking fast [TS]

  we got anonymous feedback about that by [TS]

  the way about the dual module thing and [TS]

  like I think it just what it boils down [TS]

  to is like you just do the benchmark [TS]

  look at the performance it's like three [TS]

  gigabytes per second read and write [TS]

  roughly it's like it's a little bit less [TS]

  for right right so the debate about [TS]

  single versus dual the feedback we got [TS]

  is that it's not actually a dual module [TS]

  it's just one module that's split into [TS]

  two bits of silicon but the bottom line [TS]

  is that what is it like for PCI Express [TS]

  Lanes going to this controller yes like [TS]

  you you get the results you get and you [TS]

  know what whether it's because they're [TS]

  dual or it's just one good they could [TS]

  have put it on a single chip of four [TS]

  different packaging reasons is that they [TS]

  are giving you the PCI Express Lanes to [TS]

  get maximum performance out of the SSDs [TS]

  and the performance is [TS]

  better than any other mac essentially [TS]

  and did you did you ask them about the [TS]

  encryption stuff as well a little bit [TS]

  yeah I mean I didn't have a lot of [TS]

  question on it because I didn't know [TS]

  enough to ask really about but yeah it [TS]

  is certainly do it's doing all the [TS]

  encryption in hardware like in the t2 so [TS]

  there so any so there's two different [TS]

  types of encryption going on here [TS]

  there's the hardware encryption kind of [TS]

  like what iOS devices have where like [TS]

  the actual data on the flash is [TS]

  encrypted even if you're not using File [TS]

  Vault it is encrypted and if you take [TS]

  that SSD stick or whatever it is out of [TS]

  the iMac Pro and put it in some kind of [TS]

  enclosure or another I Mac Pro to try to [TS]

  read it you won't be able to because the [TS]

  key to decrypt it is you know secure [TS]

  Enclave style stored on that t2 the [TS]

  reading of the flash is tied to that [TS]

  hardware so the only way to read the [TS]

  data on the flash is if you can get that [TS]

  computer to read it for you if you do [TS]

  things like set a firmware password or [TS]

  something obviously that's going to [TS]

  provide pretty good security on that so [TS]

  like you so we can't boot other things I [TS]

  actually I didn't ask too much about [TS]

  like today like what's different now [TS]

  with this with the new secure boot stuff [TS]

  with things like firmware passwords and [TS]

  boot options and whether it will boot [TS]

  external media and stuff like that I [TS]

  know a lot of that has changed mostly [TS]

  for the better it may be entirely for [TS]

  the better so I I can't really talk [TS]

  about VAX I don't know enough about it [TS]

  yet so there's that level of encryption [TS]

  and you can also use file vault on top [TS]

  of that and if you do use File Vault its [TS]

  encryption instructions are now hardware [TS]

  accelerated so that's not even running [TS]

  on the xeon it's running on the t - it's [TS]

  not taxing xeon at all alright hardware [TS]

  accelerated you got my you got my pet [TS]

  peeve again oh now it's hardware [TS]

  accelerated instead of being executed in [TS]

  hardware it'll be executed on hardware [TS]

  but there that you got the important [TS]

  point is that you don't have to make the [TS]

  cpu won't be involved in this so most [TS]

  people are speculating like you know [TS]

  that you know what performance hit do [TS]

  you get for using encryption with HFS+ [TS]

  or a BFS and you could measure it and [TS]

  you know apples like it's really small [TS]

  or whatever I think some testing has [TS]

  shown that the hit might actually be [TS]

  more with a PFS than it was with a [TS]

  better spot whether it's because a [TS]

  better encryption or whatever [TS]

  theoretically well first of all you know [TS]

  assuredly this [TS]

  we'll give you more CPU because you CPU [TS]

  won't be doing any encryption stuff none [TS]

  zero it'll all be done by the t2 which [TS]

  is great like I like the idea of these [TS]

  little custom coprocessors handling this [TS]

  type of this very specific function [TS]

  surely they have instructions just for [TS]

  its great the second possibility that [TS]

  some will have the benchmark to find out [TS]

  is okay your CPU is freed up does the T [TS]

  to do that encryption job faster than [TS]

  the Xeon used to because you know it's [TS]

  dedicated type of thing if it does that [TS]

  means there would be less of a [TS]

  performance hit for enabling FileVault [TS]

  on an iMac Pro with the t2 and that's [TS]

  something we'll have to benchmark I mean [TS]

  I'm guessing there's probably some kind [TS]

  of smart implementation detail where cuz [TS]

  like it's already in the t20 as the disk [TS]

  and controller you know and doing that [TS]

  hardware encryption the way OS devices [TS]

  do it's already encrypting everything in [TS]

  and out at full speed even when firewall [TS]

  it's not on [TS]

  so I'm guessing by using File Vault [TS]

  you're probably just like having another [TS]

  mode of maybe of that same encryption or [TS]

  having the keys combine in some way or [TS]

  something like that I don't know the [TS]

  details enough to say but it could be [TS]

  and if that's the case there will be [TS]

  zero speed hit because like it's doing [TS]

  it whether you have File Vault on or not [TS]

  and so it's you know like this this [TS]

  should be borne out by the benchmarks [TS]

  but but it's it's an intriguing [TS]

  possibility this brings me back to the [TS]

  good old days of film to try media [TS]

  accelerator you guys don't remember that [TS]

  but know what they're there I have it [TS]

  very even in the early days of Mac I was [TS]

  too much maybe you were you were around [TS]

  for and remember the idea of Apple [TS]

  adding chips to Mac's [TS]

  to make them faster in basically magical [TS]

  ways it's like yeah you can just take a [TS]

  CPU and some RAM and a motherboard and [TS]

  throw them together but the Apple [TS]

  special sauce is they'll play special [TS]

  magic chips on there that will make your [TS]

  Mac better this is the actual reality of [TS]

  the t2 chip and threw down there and I [TS]

  mean even on Apple's on page like the [TS]

  list of stuff this thing does in [TS]

  addition to what we listed is image [TS]

  signal processing for the front-facing [TS]

  camera audio controller of course the [TS]

  secure Enclave the the encryption oh [TS]

  actually this is right from Apple's [TS]

  marketing page the data in your SSD is [TS]

  encrypted using dedicated AES Hardware [TS]

  with no effect on the SSDs performance [TS]

  it's not clear whether they're talking [TS]

  about file vault or the other [TS]

  thing but yeah they're like they're [TS]

  actually doing something that they had [TS]

  very rarely done in the past which is [TS]

  throw throwing a chip the chip that [TS]

  nobody else has to their computer [TS]

  specifically to make them perform better [TS]

  and who doesn't like that [TS]

  that is a that is a great Pro feature [TS]

  and if it lets them like you know these [TS]

  are things you should be able to measure [TS]

  if it lets them go faster on benchmarks [TS]

  because the CPU is not involved in all [TS]

  in any of the encryption on the disk [TS]

  stuff that's that's a clean win and if [TS]

  the T 2 as is rumored is heavily based [TS]

  on an existing iPhone chip that's a [TS]

  great reuse of IP like we already did [TS]

  the work to design this chip for their [TS]

  flagship product you can repurpose this [TS]

  chip and throw it in with a combination [TS]

  of a bunch of other stuff and maybe even [TS]

  repurpose some software that you have to [TS]

  do say image processing from the iPhone [TS]

  or whatever you know and maybe disk [TS]

  controller stuff I don't know how much [TS]

  of that is shared with the iOS devices [TS]

  that might be using a similar thing this [TS]

  is a smart way to make a better faster [TS]

  computer and I hope the Mac Pro has [TS]

  something just like this even though you [TS]

  know presumably doesn't have a front [TS]

  facing camera or whatever and I think [TS]

  you know one of the things we said when [TS]

  when the touch bar was launched was you [TS]

  know this actually does show like they [TS]

  are putting significant engineering [TS]

  resources into the Mac still you know [TS]

  not as much as we would like sometimes [TS]

  but clearly like it isn't just sitting [TS]

  around being completely neglected like [TS]

  this wasn't this wasn't like a half [TS]

  assed [TS]

  update this was like a significant [TS]

  engineering effort and with with [TS]

  significant new things being put into it [TS]

  not just like a stock into a motherboard [TS]

  and in you know stock parts so give them [TS]

  you know full credit where credit is due [TS]

  like this is major engineering we're [TS]

  going into the Mac and for a long time [TS]

  it seemed like that wasn't happening so [TS]

  this is this is a nice you know change [TS]

  of the narrative and it's good to see [TS]

  results what one aspect of this [TS]

  integration by the way of like getting [TS]

  to the SSD specifically affect great [TS]

  performance the encryption addressed for [TS]

  free the secure Enclave this is from our [TS]

  anonymous source again as president says [TS]

  they feel quite confident stating there [TS]

  will never be a third party SSD upgrade [TS]

  for a t2 equipped a Mac because the [TS]

  integration is so tight I mean maybe [TS]

  it's tied down to being soldered in or [TS]

  maybe it's tight just down to like [TS]

  this is not something you can buy off [TS]

  the shelf there's tight integration [TS]

  between the storage and the controller [TS]

  and the encryption and all that other [TS]

  stuff going on there that it is a very [TS]

  custom solution and that is very much [TS]

  like iOS devices where no one considers [TS]

  you know upgrading the storage you buy a [TS]

  64 gig phone you're like oh I have to [TS]

  mark it upgrade it to 128 no you won't [TS]

  like because it's so integrated into [TS]

  like everything inside iPhone is from [TS]

  has from day one been so tied up with [TS]

  the whole security environment of phones [TS]

  and the t2 brings the Mac closer to that [TS]

  ideal in good ways and bad we haven't [TS]

  gotten to the secure boot stuff yet but [TS]

  like bringing closer to the ideal of a [TS]

  phone of being more resilient to [TS]

  Hardware attacks like this is the old [TS]

  adage in the world of desktop and even [TS]

  laptop computers is physical access [TS]

  trumps all security even server's [TS]

  physical access trumps all security if [TS]

  you are physically there with the [TS]

  hardware it doesn't really matter what [TS]

  you've done security wise because if [TS]

  you're physically there there are so [TS]

  many things that you can do to to own [TS]

  that machine right with phones the whole [TS]

  idea has been to make them resilient to [TS]

  that old adage does physical access [TS]

  Trump's security here you go here's my [TS]

  phone if Apple has done a good job it [TS]

  should be really hard for you to get [TS]

  anything out of it like anything at all [TS]

  aside from you maybe like freezing the [TS]

  thing liquid nitrogen and extracting the [TS]

  data from RAM but even then it might be [TS]

  encrypted like you know so anyway the t2 [TS]

  and the associated secure boot machine [TS]

  you're insecure and clad and all that [TS]

  stuff are an attempt to bring the Mac [TS]

  more into that direction for for good [TS]

  and bad mostly good in terms of security [TS]

  but bad in terms of us as computer [TS]

  enthusiasts who occasionally screw up on [TS]

  their our computers have gotten used to [TS]

  the idea that you know physical access [TS]

  Trump's all security is good for us when [TS]

  we screw up when we mess up our own [TS]

  computers say well it's all messed up [TS]

  but because I'm physically here in front [TS]

  of the computer I'm gonna plug in this [TS]

  other driving boot from it or you know [TS]

  I'm gonna go in Target disc mode and [TS]

  just pull the data off or whatever like [TS]

  you're even though if hosed my OS [TS]

  install by messing with the boot loader [TS]

  or some girl like there's always [TS]

  something we can do to save ourselves [TS]

  not so much with an iPhone and maybe not [TS]

  so much with one of these iMac pros [TS]

  either depending on how you have [TS]

  configured yeah and this was one of the [TS]

  reasons why like I would strongly advise [TS]

  similar to the RAM argument like don't [TS]

  assume you're gonna be able to upgrade [TS]

  these later you know he said like that [TS]

  we know we heard from their anonymous [TS]

  tip they don't they don't think that [TS]

  it's likely that we're gonna have [TS]

  upgradable SSDs from third parties I [TS]

  didn't ask this during the call so I [TS]

  don't I haven't I don't have any kind of [TS]

  official statement on this but I would I [TS]

  would guess the same thing it seems very [TS]

  likely that's gonna be the case that it [TS]

  I don't think you're gonna see a third [TS]

  party t2 SSD modules and you know as we [TS]

  briefly discussed last week I don't [TS]

  think that's that different from how it [TS]

  is now like though the last few [TS]

  generations of Mac's that we've had you [TS]

  haven't had third-party SSD modules [TS]

  usually at all or if they do come they [TS]

  come like years after the machine is [TS]

  launched and they're usually very [TS]

  expensive because they're like custom [TS]

  stuff from OWCA or something like that [TS]

  so like if you can at all [TS]

  order your computer with the disk base [TS]

  you need up front do it and and [TS]

  otherwise consider external expansion [TS]

  because internal upgrades down the road [TS]

  are just getting less and less likely to [TS]

  be possible or affordable so the secure [TS]

  boot stuff cable did a bunch of tweets [TS]

  about it because he got one too right do [TS]

  you know that he's in the developer who [TS]

  got a review unit oh yeah that's right [TS]

  he didn't just get a call he actually [TS]

  kind of computer which is cool so he did [TS]

  a bunch of tweets about it one of them [TS]

  was a screenshot of a new I guess it's [TS]

  an app called startup security utility [TS]

  and it's where you can enable and [TS]

  disable the firmware password but it [TS]

  also has two little sets of radio [TS]

  buttons one called secure boot and the [TS]

  options are full security which I don't [TS]

  know what the defaults are but the full [TS]

  security ensures that only the latest [TS]

  and most secure software can be run and [TS]

  this mode requires a network connection [TS]

  that software installation time I'm a [TS]

  little bit confused about the details of [TS]

  that because ensures that only the [TS]

  latest and most secure software or does [TS]

  that mean like if it's not the latest [TS]

  software it won't boot it but it will [TS]

  force you to do an update before leaving [TS]

  boot I don't know anyway medium is a [TS]

  carry requires verifiable software out [TS]

  of boot but not the latest software so [TS]

  you can just keep using your old OS and [TS]

  no security does not enforce any [TS]

  requirement so all of our max now fall [TS]

  under the category as far as secure boot [TS]

  is concerned of no security like if the [TS]

  if [TS]

  there's an interesting name for what [TS]

  Apple thinks of this thing if you plug [TS]

  in a drive that has an OS that can boot [TS]

  your machine it will boot right it [TS]

  doesn't do any verification that that [TS]

  operating system is like completely [TS]

  valid and hasn't been rooted and it sure [TS]

  doesn't care if it's the latest version [TS]

  you know you can whatever like my 2008 [TS]

  Mac Pro what did it ship with it a ship [TS]

  with Snow Leopard maybe before that [TS]

  maybe it shipped with Leopard [TS]

  yeah I think it shipped with Leopard [TS]

  it'll boot Leopard right now it doesn't [TS]

  care that Leopard is ancient like so [TS]

  that's what Apple considers no security [TS]

  and there's also an option for external [TS]

  boot and you can select disallow booting [TS]

  from external media which is pretty [TS]

  straightforward it's like oh you messed [TS]

  up your computer you want to boot from [TS]

  another disk to try to save it [TS]

  nope not if you have this thing set or [TS]

  the option to allow booting from [TS]

  external me so a lot of the t2 stuff is [TS]

  like you know you can make your iMac [TS]

  much more like an iPhone or if you [TS]

  change these settings it can just be [TS]

  like a normal Mac has always been no [TS]

  it's clear that direction Apple wants [TS]

  you to go in the top items and all these [TS]

  radio buttons are the the most secure [TS]

  ones but there's an interesting techno [TS]

  to help article that I'll put a link to [TS]

  that like what do you do if you have [TS]

  your iMac Pro set to the most secure [TS]

  settings and you screw it up the [TS]

  recovery procedure kind of like the [TS]

  recovery procedure when you like screw [TS]

  up your phone and you know to sort of go [TS]

  into DFU mode or whatever the recovery [TS]

  procedure for your iMac pro requires you [TS]

  to have another Mac Pro and if you think [TS]

  about it's like look you know you always [TS]

  need some other thing to plug your thing [TS]

  into like when you put your phone in DFU [TS]

  mode if you don't literally have any [TS]

  other hardware it just sits there [TS]

  staring at you it's nothing you need [TS]

  some other device to connect to do in [TS]

  the case of the Mac Pro what you need to [TS]

  connect to do it would be kind of neat [TS]

  of you connected to an iPhone to recover [TS]

  it like it would download from the [TS]

  internet the OS update and funnel it [TS]

  through but anyway this is the brave new [TS]

  world security the whole point of all [TS]

  the secure boot software so that your [TS]

  computer could verify that it is running [TS]

  like you know clean software software [TS]

  the you know this sort of chain of trust [TS]

  that each thing in the chain verifies [TS]

  the next thing what was it at cable had [TS]

  a good tweet about it [TS]

  the new chip means that storage [TS]

  encryption keys pass from the secure [TS]

  Enclave to the [TS]

  our encryption engine unship yukine [TS]

  never leaves the chip and allows the [TS]

  hardware verification of the OS the [TS]

  kernel the bootloader firmware etc and [TS]

  each each component in turn verifies the [TS]

  neck so it's a chain of trust starting [TS]

  with the secure Enclave essentially so [TS]

  that each thing each thing that runs [TS]

  next knows that it is being kicked off [TS]

  from something that is secure and it's [TS]

  the way the phone security works and [TS]

  it's the way this security works and [TS]

  it's you know it's not like it's [TS]

  foolproof [TS]

  like any security thing if there's the [TS]

  flaw it can be exploited to get in [TS]

  that's how jailbreak Savoy's work like [TS]

  you know it's not impenetrable but it is [TS]

  a far cry from the world of all the [TS]

  Mac's that we're sitting in front of now [TS]

  which is like la dee da ba boot whatever [TS]

  the heck you give them they have no idea [TS]

  if your operating system has been you [TS]

  know root kitted or whatever they have [TS]

  no idea how new it is when they're [TS]

  booting and this iMac changes all that I [TS]

  wonder a little bit like you know one of [TS]

  the problems that I have with High [TS]

  Sierra is that it's it's pretty buggy [TS]

  still but yet Apple is really pushing it [TS]

  heavily through like the auto-update [TS]

  mechanism and stuff like that the the [TS]

  idea that like you know to have the the [TS]

  best security you should be running the [TS]

  latest OS is often true but not always [TS]

  true and sometimes we're running the [TS]

  latest OS has other downsides like [TS]

  certain things that are that are still [TS]

  broken or two different or that break [TS]

  your workflow like you know dropping [TS]

  support for some old app that you use [TS]

  something like that I wonder like how [TS]

  this mechanism will be useful in [TS]

  practice if you want to still use the [TS]

  old OS for a while because the new one [TS]

  isn't good enough yet or doesn't support [TS]

  the things you need to support yet is [TS]

  this going to force you to upgrade [TS]

  unless you turn down your security to [TS]

  the medium level I guess yeah you have [TS]

  to change down to medium security which [TS]

  you know it's like they're loaded terms [TS]

  full versus medium but for exactly the [TS]

  reasons you stated it's great that they [TS]

  give you these options I think you don't [TS]

  have to go to no security unlike for [TS]

  example what is it [TS]

  was the thing on the Mac called the ice [TS]

  the thing that protects all your like [TS]

  system files system integrity protection [TS]

  s IP yeah there we go sip that you could [TS]

  if you need that on or off and maybe [TS]

  there's some develop remote that's kind [TS]

  of in between you there but very often [TS]

  it's like look to use this fancy piece [TS]

  of software you have to disable system [TS]

  integrity protection and even I who am [TS]

  willing to hack there man [TS]

  a little bit almost like ma'am really [TS]

  makes me rethink whether I want a [TS]

  completely disabled system integrity [TS]

  Riggins I like the protection the [TS]

  additional protection and it provides [TS]

  additionally protection from myself [TS]

  screwing up my own computer by modifying [TS]

  system files which I you know I've done [TS]

  in the past right so it makes me think [TS]

  twice about doing having medium security [TS]

  where it requires verifiable software at [TS]

  a boot meaning that it verifies that [TS]

  like this is these are legit copies of [TS]

  everything the bootloader the kernel all [TS]

  you know everything else but does not [TS]

  require you to have the latest software [TS]

  that's the mode that I think is most [TS]

  appealing maybe all the time but [TS]

  certainly when a new release comes out [TS]

  because you like if the Machine [TS]

  literally will refuse to boot until it [TS]

  updates itself that is a behavior that I [TS]

  think Pro customers will not appreciate [TS]

  so again I have no idea what the default [TS]

  is but remember you know if you get one [TS]

  of these machines remember to use this [TS]

  utility and pick the option that makes [TS]

  the most sense for you I mean even if [TS]

  only like if it refused to boot until it [TS]

  had the latest and it literally had to [TS]

  run the software update the High Sierra [TS]

  for all you know that is like causing [TS]

  the latest version of Adobe Creative [TS]

  Suite not to launch right like you know [TS]

  if you're Pro machine that you used to [TS]

  do work every day you come in one [TS]

  morning to try to do work and it's like [TS]

  oh I won't even boot until I update [TS]

  myself and then after it boots this [TS]

  application that you use on this all day [TS]

  doesn't launch anymore because it's not [TS]

  yet compatible that's not a great [TS]

  experience so medium security sounds [TS]

  like a good compromise for most people [TS]

  and disallow booting from external media [TS]

  like are you an environment where a [TS]

  physical security is actually that [TS]

  important to you or do you want the [TS]

  option of saving your own but if you [TS]

  screw something up by plugging in an [TS]

  external drive I feel like I would leave [TS]

  that on allow booting from external [TS]

  media but everyone's secured exposure [TS]

  and environment is different maybe [TS]

  you're working on the next Star Wars [TS]

  movie and it's really important that if [TS]

  someone breaks into the office they [TS]

  would have a really difficult time [TS]

  getting your computer to boot from their [TS]

  external drive and target disk mode so [TS]

  they could copy all your precious files [TS]

  off of it [TS]

  alright and then a couple other just [TS]

  little tidbits that I asked about or a [TS]

  little bits of information I've picked [TS]

  up since then [TS]

  the quick thing the PCI Express layout I [TS]

  know this sounds really boring trust me [TS]

  there's a reason I'm saying it [TS]

  it has the GPU running on 16 lanes it [TS]

  has two Thunderbolt controllers running [TS]

  on four lanes each so eight total and [TS]

  the 10 gig Ethernet port runs on four [TS]

  lanes all those directions the CPU [TS]

  everything else including the t2 is done [TS]

  through the DMI which goes to what used [TS]

  to be called the Southbridge I think I [TS]

  don't know if Intel still calls it the [TS]

  Southbridge anymore it's like the [TS]

  controller on the chipset that controls [TS]

  like USB and all sorts of other like you [TS]

  know lower speed peripherals then like [TS]

  the GPU the t2 is the largest bandwidth [TS]

  consumer through that bus and the DMI [TS]

  bus seems to have approximately the same [TS]

  bandwidth as four PCI Express lanes and [TS]

  you can see that in the in the [TS]

  benchmarks of the SSD that basically the [TS]

  that the SSD clearly can run with the [TS]

  bandwidth of four PCI Express lanes so [TS]

  that that does seem to be pretty good I [TS]

  I didn't ask because I got this [TS]

  information after the call so I didn't [TS]

  ask why the t2 wasn't connected to one [TS]

  of the CPU lanes directly because the [TS]

  CPU has 48 lanes and by my account only [TS]

  28 of them are being used or at least [TS]

  only 28 that I can account for but the [TS]

  reason I bring this up a lot of people [TS]

  look at this machine and they wonder why [TS]

  do we have to pay for Zeon's why can't a [TS]

  Pullip a cheap Tower that I want that [TS]

  has an i7 chip in it or whatever this is [TS]

  one of the reasons I said like so the [TS]

  the best i7 you can get in say the [TS]

  regular iMac has 16 lanes from the CPU [TS]

  total this is using 28 of them this [TS]

  shows you like if you drop down to one [TS]

  of the consumer CPUs you would be [TS]

  required to cut throughput or if it's a [TS]

  cut possible bandwidth on some of these [TS]

  components and maybe you won't notice [TS]

  like some people argue well you can cut [TS]

  a GPU down to x8 down from x16 and it's [TS]

  fine [TS]

  well yeah maybe it's fine but is it the [TS]

  best it can be like yeah it's getting [TS]

  late to John's argument like is that the [TS]

  best or is it fine so it is very clear [TS]

  that like they are using the throughput [TS]

  of the Xeon here and one of the reasons [TS]

  I was thinking about this was kind of [TS]

  trying to do some research on like [TS]

  do they have enough free PCI Express [TS]

  Lanes coming off the CPU in a in a [TS]

  theoretical Mac Pro that they could [TS]

  offer multiple card slots while also [TS]

  supporting more than one GPU with an x16 [TS]

  connectivity Lane and the answer appears [TS]

  to be yes it appears to be they can [TS]

  probably offer two x16 GPUs and still [TS]

  have enough lanes for other stuff but [TS]

  I'm not like I don't think they would [TS]

  also offer additional PCI Express slots [TS]

  beyond maybe just those two and all this [TS]

  was you know theoretical trying to [TS]

  educate myself to make better Mac Pro [TS]

  predictions and then finally I asked if [TS]

  they're still remember when the when the [TS]

  5k iMac first launched at the time [TS]

  Thunderbolt 2 was not powerful enough to [TS]

  drive a 5k display at 60 Hertz it didn't [TS]

  have enough bandwidth to drive a fico [TS]

  displays at 60 Hertz and Apple made a [TS]

  big deal but even during the [TS]

  presentation pointing out they had [TS]

  developed their own timing controller or [TS]

  t-con and they had embedded that in the [TS]

  iMac 2 to help drive the display by [TS]

  basically multiplexing two streams [TS]

  together I asked if they still do that [TS]

  the answer yes so there's because I [TS]

  figured like you know the now things are [TS]

  faster maybe they wouldn't need that [TS]

  anymore but no they still do it so [TS]

  that's useful to somebody maybe and then [TS]

  finally I asked if the Apple Care [TS]

  pricing is a mistake because because [TS]

  whether you so that you know one of the [TS]

  little flukes about Apple Care pricing [TS]

  is that book keeps flat pricing for a [TS]

  product family so if you look at like a [TS]

  MacBook Pro the price of Apple care for [TS]

  a two thousand dollar configuration of [TS]

  the 15-inch MacBook Pro that's the same [TS]

  price whether you get the base model or [TS]

  whether you spec up all the specs and it [TS]

  cost like $5,000 Apple care stays the [TS]

  same price because it's just the price [TS]

  that of what it is for MacBook Pro the [TS]

  iMac pro is classified as an iMac for [TS]

  applicator purposes and so whether you [TS]

  spend literally $1300 or $13,000 [TS]

  AppleCare is the same price of a hundred [TS]

  and sixty nine dollars and when I when I [TS]

  ordered this like it you know it shows [TS]

  you like on the second page it shows [TS]

  like the order screen of like you do you [TS]

  want to add the applicator your I [TS]

  thought it was a mistake I'm like [TS]

  there's no way that like a ten thousand [TS]

  dollar configuration of this computer [TS]

  that Apple care is under $200 there's no [TS]

  way but it turns out that is not a [TS]

  mistake [TS]

  that's just what it costs so this is one [TS]

  of those things I I say like I buy [TS]

  applique selectively based on the [TS]

  economics involved in each decision I [TS]

  would definitely recommend Bucky iMac [TS]

  bro just because you know hey these are [TS]

  really expensive parts if you ever need [TS]

  to get them serviced you know I would [TS]

  assume that that servicing this is going [TS]

  to cost more simply because the [TS]

  components are more advanced and higher [TS]

  higher and and will cost more and be [TS]

  that is such a cheap price for Apple [TS]

  care relative to the cost of the machine [TS]

  that it seems like an exceptionally good [TS]

  deal in this case one thing about the [TS]

  PCI Express Lanes back in the [TS]

  cheesegrater days maybe all the cheese I [TS]

  think they they had like one good slot [TS]

  for your good card and then one slot [TS]

  with like half the number of lanes but [TS]

  for the purposes of in those days put [TS]

  the purposes of having like a crossfire [TS]

  duel GPUs for games and stuff like that [TS]

  most games could get by with eight lanes [TS]

  instead of sixteen so you'd put one card [TS]

  in the sixteen one card in the eight but [TS]

  just run them the same speed and they [TS]

  would you know work or just having two [TS]

  cards to have like a larger number of [TS]

  monitors back before you could drive ten [TS]

  thousand monitors off your laptops it [TS]

  was a big deal to have two video cards [TS]

  each of which could drive two monitors [TS]

  and you get a big setup like that so [TS]

  it's conceivable that a Mac Pro could [TS]

  have one 16x slot and then a bunch of [TS]

  slower slots somewhat you'd still put [TS]

  cards in especially if you just want to [TS]

  expand the number of monitors of you who [TS]

  knows maybe you're making some weird [TS]

  simulation thing that needs 15 monitors [TS]

  right if you have enough slots it [TS]

  doesn't matter that they're not all 16 [TS]

  lanes you just need enough to drive a [TS]

  monitor right so there's a lot of [TS]

  flexibility I continue to think that [TS]

  card slots won't be what the Mac Pro is [TS]

  about but who knows like you just need a [TS]

  couple of slots to make it so much [TS]

  better than zero slots right and and I [TS]

  would be perfectly happy if there was [TS]

  only one [TS]

  sixteen X slot in there and then just [TS]

  you know one or two lesser ones or even [TS]

  zero lesser ones because all I really [TS]

  care about is the abilities upgrade the [TS]

  GPU but other people other people's [TS]

  mileage may vary I do wonder about slots [TS]

  in the Mac Pro how has Apple [TS]

  successfully entirely killed the market [TS]

  for any card you can buy to stick in a [TS]

  Mac I suppose not because a lot of PC [TS]

  cards will still work in there or will [TS]

  work and there was some you know minor [TS]

  change right but it's not as if there's [TS]

  tons and tons of cards being sold to Mac [TS]

  users because what would they put them [TS]

  in it's been many many years since Apple [TS]

  has sold the computer brand new that [TS]

  takes expansion cards PCI Express cards [TS]

  in them so I have to imagine if you were [TS]

  in the market of selling whatever cards [TS]

  for whatever they go inside a Mac said [TS]

  that's been a difficult market for a [TS]

  while alright so you know that's that's [TS]

  something to watch for I like it seems [TS]

  like there's plenty of lanes to go [TS]

  around it gives Apple lots of [TS]

  flexibility Apple could certainly use [TS]

  them all in the Mac Pro but it would not [TS]

  be absolutely shocked [TS]

  if it turns out that even in the biggest [TS]

  beefiest configuration of Mac Pro that [TS]

  was actually still a couple of lanes [TS]

  left over for something well and you [TS]

  know maybe the e GPU situation now we'll [TS]

  keep that market alive for compute cards [TS]

  and GPUs like I I don't expect that [TS]

  market to come back for things like [TS]

  video capture car like that that was [TS]

  like one of the some of the big uses of [TS]

  PCI cards in the past have been like [TS]

  custom high-end video capture cards [TS]

  certain raid controllers and stuff like [TS]

  that like that's probably not coming [TS]

  back or even like putting USB 3 in a [TS]

  really old cheese grater stuff like that [TS]

  like these tiny little cards that look [TS]

  like they're you know embarrassingly [TS]

  small like they didn't even thinking of [TS]

  a card slot like this there's lots of [TS]

  things that you can do in those cards [TS]

  don't have to be super Mac specific [TS]

  thing and again it lengthen the life of [TS]

  your computer by giving an interface [TS]

  that it didn't have before whatever even [TS]

  like a 10 gig Ethernet card and a Mac [TS]

  Pro didn't come with 10 gig Ethernet or [TS]

  whatever I would guess that the the only [TS]

  likely role of card slots in a new Mac [TS]

  Pro is GPUs slash compute cards if they [TS]

  do that I'm guessing there's a limit of [TS]

  two slots if if for nothing else for [TS]

  bandwidth or for just sheer size or [TS]

  Apple being Apple not wanted to offer [TS]

  you a ton of PCI slots cuz they view [TS]

  those as unnecessary slash the past [TS]

  slash of burden and all of those I think [TS]

  today that that would be a reasonable [TS]

  position to take as long as you can [TS]

  support GPUs and compute cards I think [TS]

  you're okay so Casey are you still with [TS]

  us so so now now comes the final my [TS]

  final thought on this for this ten [TS]

  minute period so you know they call this [TS]

  guy Mac Pro and John said we'll never [TS]

  buy one I said I would never buy one [TS]

  never recall saying like an hour ago but [TS]

  but I do I think it's very very clear by [TS]

  looking you know look at what this [TS]

  machine actually is the only reason [TS]

  that's called iMac is because it has a [TS]

  closed back in a screen on the front but [TS]

  by all accounts this is a Mac Pro like [TS]

  the reason we're talking about it so [TS]

  much the reason we're so excited the [TS]

  reason it's so damn fast is because it's [TS]

  a Mac Pro it's in everything but name [TS]

  and shape but it isn't like even the [TS]

  shape is not that different from what we [TS]

  had from 2013 forward one of the reasons [TS]

  I'm so happy about this is that we've [TS]

  been curling for years for a Mac Pro [TS]

  update well they just gave us one this [TS]

  is a Mac Pro update and it isn't exactly [TS]

  what everybody wants like a lot of [TS]

  people still want the you know what a [TS]

  what an expandable headless tower will [TS]

  offer them and I might be one of these [TS]

  two you know the side when it comes out [TS]

  but I am just really excited about this [TS]

  machine because they gave us a new Mac [TS]

  Pro it's a Mac Pro period no matter what [TS]

  they call it this is a Mac Pro and [TS]

  that's really great I'm really excited [TS]

  about that I just cannot wait to be [TS]

  using a Mac Pro again even if there's an [TS]

  extra letter in front of it see how [TS]

  excited you are when you have to bring [TS]

  it in for image retention yeah well I'm [TS]

  a little worried about service issues [TS]

  like like the most prosaic things like [TS]

  the the guts of it all work great great [TS]

  but it's like the the screen ends up [TS]

  being with you know it's the all-in-one [TS]

  factor like that if something goes wrong [TS]

  with it even if everything else is [TS]

  working fine the dull thing has to go in [TS]

  so anyway and and it's been brought up [TS]

  by a lot of the people and I've been [TS]

  thinking about Italy too as I sit here [TS]

  in front of my [TS]

  nearly ten-year-old maunder that 5k [TS]

  screen in iMac is great tying it to like [TS]

  it's going to age much more slowly than [TS]

  the internals because it's not like the [TS]

  5k screen is gonna be cutting edge [TS]

  forever say a case readings come out is [TS]

  like oh that's stinky 5k screen but that [TS]

  5k screaming will be a great screen for [TS]

  years and years and years and years like [TS]

  you could you could keep somebody it was [TS]

  reliable and it kept working you're not [TS]

  going to turn your nose up at that [TS]

  screen anytime soon [TS]

  like there is no second retina [TS]

  revolution where we have another 5x [TS]

  increase in resolution because there's [TS]

  no benefit to that maybe HDR will start [TS]

  to make it crappy but if we got all that [TS]

  on the desktop have like those real OLED [TS]

  black levels aw man that'd be great but [TS]

  I don't that doesn't seem like it's [TS]

  happening soon wait an HDR but I say [TS]

  because I'm sitting in front of a [TS]

  ten-year-old monitor here this monitor [TS]

  is not retina it's not great the black [TS]

  levels on deter atrocious but it still [TS]

  looks nice like my qualifier for look [TS]

  nice especially with Apple monitors [TS]

  color uniformity uh and general [TS]

  sharpness goes a long way right the fact [TS]

  that this is still like if I make screen [TS]

  entirely white I can't tell there's like [TS]

  a dark splotch and a life swatch and [TS]

  stuff like that no image retention as [TS]

  far as I'm able to tell all the pictures [TS]

  are still alive looks about as good as [TS]

  the day I got it yeah it's small but you [TS]

  know if I wasn't me I could have been [TS]

  using this monitor but the series of [TS]

  Mac's right and it kind of makes me feel [TS]

  bad about I have a 27 inch Thunderbolt [TS]

  Display up in the attic which granted is [TS]

  an external display but because it's [TS]

  like a thunderbolt weirdness I don't [TS]

  have stuff to plug it into without a [TS]

  dongle type adapter but I you know and [TS]

  if I could have plugged that into my [TS]

  current Mac and it wasn't ten years old [TS]

  I would have anyway all this is to say [TS]

  that for all of the iMac pros greatness [TS]

  all-in-one is still an all-in-one and [TS]

  it's great for what you want it to be [TS]

  but the all-in-one compromises are still [TS]

  there and you have to be aware of them [TS]

  and no matter how awesome they make the [TS]

  internals nothing changes the stripes of [TS]

  and all on being an all-in-one and and [TS]

  mostly I think about it because that you [TS]

  know maybe I think about it because my [TS]

  wife's monitoring or 5k iMac was so much [TS]

  better than the thing that I sit in [TS]

  front of every day I'm like man I would [TS]

  love to use that as [TS]

  and I know that it will never happen [TS]

  when the when the guts of that 5k iMac [TS]

  become old and slow I can't just use it [TS]

  as a monitor for another machine which [TS]

  you couldn't you couldn't do with one of [TS]

  the older non red and IMAX if I recall [TS]

  correctly but anyway I'm like what I'm [TS]

  saying is I'm looking forward to the pro [TS]

  display almost as much as the Mac Pro [TS]

  yeah I really am very excited to see [TS]

  what that ends up being but honestly [TS]

  like if we didn't have anything any hope [TS]

  of a Mac Pro coming you know if we [TS]

  didn't have that that you know the [TS]

  statements for Apple saying they're [TS]

  working on one if this was it if this [TS]

  was the only thing that was gonna be the [TS]

  new Mac Pro that's not bad it would [TS]

  still be amazing I would still be very [TS]

  excited I would have ordered it if that [TS]

  was the case I would have ordered and I [TS]

  wouldn't have been too grumpy about [TS]

  ordering got my grumpy I would have been [TS]

  grumpy by making a Mac Pro but I [TS]

  wouldn't have been that grumpy about [TS]

  having to order this because I would you [TS]

  know like at various times I have to [TS]

  actually consider replacing my Mac Pro [TS]

  with a 5k when in my darkest times and [TS]

  it's clear that the 5k is not like a Mac [TS]

  Pro any stretch of the imagination its [TS]

  consumer CPUs it's you know like but it [TS]

  would be you know at a certain point [TS]

  it's a big upgrade so I would mostly be [TS]

  complaining about why aren't you gonna [TS]

  make a Mac Pro but then when it came to [TS]

  like how have fun if you're not gonna [TS]

  make a Mac Pro you're not gonna do that [TS]

  thing I guess I'll settle for what you [TS]

  do get in settling for the iMac Pro is a [TS]

  hell of a lot better than selling for a [TS]

  5k iMac so come on I mean I admire your [TS]

  enthusiasm John I really do but both of [TS]

  you would be going bananas maybe not [TS]

  Marco after this phone call but up until [TS]

  this phone call the two of you would be [TS]

  inconsolable about how this is BS [TS]

  they're not taking pros seriously I want [TS]

  expansion I want to be able to get [TS]

  inside it that would be true but it [TS]

  would be less about complaining about [TS]

  specifically the matter [TS]

  the iMac probably more about complaining [TS]

  where is the Mac Pro and how are you you [TS]

  know all the people you're abandoning [TS]

  with with a few Mac Pro I mean the whole [TS]

  thing they had the April but they we [TS]

  don't have to do that like they they [TS]

  change their mind everyone's all happy [TS]

  we're just waiting patiently also like a [TS]

  lot of a lot of the a lot of those ships [TS]

  sail but the 2013 Mac Pro a lot like a [TS]

  lot of that was like oh you can't expand [TS]

  anymore they kill all the slots there [TS]

  they made it really expensive like that [TS]

  all happened when in 2013 so like we [TS]

  would have considered that like already [TS]

  a lost cause yeah and I think that was [TS]

  less angry about the 2013 because I [TS]

  think I am a lot of other people just [TS]

  assumed okay well this is but this is [TS]

  the first one this is the first trash [TS]

  give him a break like they're gonna you [TS]

  know the second and third generation [TS]

  trash will surely be great and that was [TS]

  that was that was turned out to be a [TS]

  mistake but but but that's why we [TS]

  weren't like oh I don't like this 2013 [TS]

  crash can i I didn't buy one I said this [TS]

  is not for me I'll wait for the second [TS]

  or third gen you know once you couldn't [TS]

  hook a retina monitor up dude how long [TS]

  did we talk about that it just we made [TS]

  assumptions that were not founded that [TS]

  computer would be updated I hope Marko [TS]

  is not correct about this Mac Pro [TS]

  because honestly whatever this Mac Pro [TS]

  is if you didn't do not have a 10 year [TS]

  old computer like me you'd be wise to [TS]

  wait for the second generation this one [TS]

  but maybe you wouldn't be because if [TS]

  Marco's theory is right and there never [TS]

  will be a second generation this new Mac [TS]

  Pro it'll be very unwise to wait for it [TS]

  and you should just get an iMac Pro now [TS]

  and just be happy so I don't know I I [TS]

  have no choice I have to get the Mac Pro [TS]

  and it comes out it's just it's just [TS]

  been too darn long but I worry about it [TS]

  being a one-and-done [TS]

  computer because that's not what I want [TS]

  from it well but I mean at least if it [TS]

  is you'll have 10 more years if it [TS]

  doesn't have over getting GPUs or some [TS]

  other weird thing is gonna be an octagon [TS]

  and it'll spin this thing a rotating [TS]

  restaurant [TS]

  alright thanks to our sponsors this week [TS]

  Squarespace Backblaze and aftershocks I [TS]

  will see you next week [TS]

  now the show is over they didn't even [TS]

  mean to begin cuz it was accidental [TS]

  oh it was accidental johnny research [TS]

  Marco and Casey wouldn't let him cuz it [TS]

  was accidentally was accidental you can [TS]

  find the show notes at a CAS URL is esta [TS]

  that's Casey less ma RC o AR m and T [TS]

  Marco Arment SI r AC Syracuse [TS]

  so how is it talking to Apple it was [TS]

  pretty cool I hear you know all the [TS]

  things you said I've been here I just [TS]

  didn't have anything to add but that's [TS]

  got to be pretty neat oh yeah it was it [TS]

  was mostly it was just like you know an [TS]

  honor that they decided to take their [TS]

  time to talk to me you know like it you [TS]

  know I wasn't talking like Tim but I was [TS]

  talking to people who matter and Apple [TS]

  who have bit busy things that they could [TS]

  be doing like you know like these [TS]

  schedules and in the middle of this [TS]

  launch they have to talk to a lot of [TS]

  people and they decided to talk to me [TS]

  for like an hour [TS]

  did you ask them one year if you unit [TS]

  would arrive no I I did not I did not [TS]

  presume that I'm getting a review in it [TS]

  and I told them right up front cuz they [TS]

  asked if I were one I said yes oh said [TS]

  no be waiting for my review yeah but [TS]

  yeah so it's it's just it's mostly just [TS]

  an honor and and the call also just went [TS]

  really well like you know it wasn't you [TS]

  know if you you might think talking to [TS]

  Apple is you know like the way Tim Cook [TS]

  is in TV interviews like you know very [TS]

  careful reserved a little bit cold maybe [TS]

  but no it isn't like that like these are [TS]

  just humans who were you know on on the [TS]

  call trying to be helpful to you trying [TS]

  to be friendly and again like they're [TS]

  not gonna like let slip something about [TS]

  the next iPhone or anything but you know [TS]

  you're still talking to people you're [TS]

  not talking like a robot so it's just a [TS]

  nice friendly call it sounds to me like [TS]

  you got handled by Apple PR oh we're [TS]

  definitely gonna have people that people [TS]

  you know who say that but yeah look I [TS]

  brought a bunch of questions to them [TS]

  some of them were a little bit [TS]

  challenging or difficult and they you [TS]

  know they they took them all in stride [TS]

  and told me what they wanted to tell me [TS]

  and you know I'm not going into this [TS]

  saying that ever that you know because I [TS]

  talked to them everything's going to be [TS]

  perfect about this computer I don't know [TS]

  yet [TS]

  but so far it seems pretty great and I I [TS]

  think I hope that I have been fair in [TS]

  representing my opinion and my thoughts [TS]

  here like I don't want to make it sound [TS]

  like now they talk to me I'm going to [TS]

  say everything I say only the good [TS]

  things [TS]

  be brainwashed and everything else it [TS]

  just sounds like this is really a really [TS]

  good computer and I think most of the [TS]

  early reviews bear that out we will see [TS]

  what happens once I get one once we get [TS]

  one if John ever buys one and over time [TS]

  we will see like either any long-term [TS]

  problems that develop like reliability [TS]

  issues or heat or things like that but [TS]

  so far it seems pretty great and from [TS]

  what we know so far I don't see any [TS]

  those problems on the horizon anymore [TS]

  you know I was very concerned about [TS]

  thermals before between what they've [TS]

  said and what other people have said who [TS]

  have seen or used or who have one of [TS]

  these computers that doesn't seem to be [TS]

  a problem so maybe that's great we'll [TS]

  find out I do hope that I'm representing [TS]

  these things you know fairly and that [TS]

  I'm not you know unreasonably biased [TS]

  because they're being friendly towards [TS]

  me but I don't think I am III think I'm [TS]

  being reasonable here but if I am I know [TS]

  you guys will tell me and if not all the [TS]

  listeners will oh of course you are I [TS]

  mean you can't help but be influenced by [TS]

  that but you know as long as you call [TS]

  out the fact that you may be influenced [TS]

  by it I feel like listeners should be [TS]

  able to take that into account you know [TS]

  I mean you know the other thing is like [TS]

  when I talk to people at Apple I don't [TS]

  pull punches and I also I'm not like [TS]

  super apologetic or differential or [TS]

  anything I just treat them as peers and [TS]

  part of that is because I don't have a [TS]

  real job and I don't really have a boss [TS]

  or anything and so I don't really treat [TS]

  anybody like they're my boss and part of [TS]

  that is that as I increasingly get into [TS]

  my my my mid 30 is soon to be my late [TS]

  30s I just don't care anymore about [TS]

  anything it's the follow-up to my [TS]

  autobiography nobody cares but me but I [TS]

  do care [TS]

  do care [TS]

  I feel like a world is a little [TS]

  upside-down did you roll over in your [TS]

  Wrangler no I didn't roll over my [TS]

  Wrangler we're gonna talk about that [TS]

  since you brought it up I guess we can [TS]

  just start with follow-up and Quinn [TS]

  suddenly in the very first item and [TS]

  follow up we have more Wrangler talks [TS]

  you have awesome first of all I wanted [TS]

  to publicly commend both John and Marco [TS]

  for for John make giving Marco the the [TS]

  the material with which to make a truly [TS]

  hilarious pre-show and I had several [TS]

  people very kindly reach out to say oh [TS]

  my god John was on fire well oftentimes [TS]

  it was John was on fire beating you up [TS]

  but at the very least it was something [TS]

  like firstly you brought the topic of [TS]

  the show and said I have a problem I'm [TS]

  thinking about a Wrangler you saying [TS]

  convinced me not to get a regular and so [TS]

  I was trying to do what you ask [TS]

  that's not a problem I have you're [TS]

  saying I you know I'm into thinking [TS]

  about you bring that but you phrased it [TS]

  as like a problem situation like if you [TS]

  were really enthusiastic about it sound [TS]

  like look I've decided to make a life [TS]

  change I have found who I really am now [TS]

  and who I really am is a Jeep Wrangler [TS]

  person like we would have been [TS]

  supportive of you as your friends can i [TS]

  if I get a Wrangler if I end up with a [TS]

  Wrangler can I have can I try to find a [TS]

  license plate that's t o PL ISS no you [TS]

  are not you are not allowed to have a [TS]

  giant list pun for the rest of your life [TS]

  oh come on anyway so we have some [TS]

  followup with regard to oh no I got [TS]

  distracted me I was trying to complement [TS]

  in you too and you've distracted me so [TS]

  anyway so yeah Marco did a very good job [TS]

  editing down 30 minutes of garbage into [TS]

  eight minutes of pure comedy gold that [TS]

  was mostly on account of John giving [TS]

  Marco the raw material with which to [TS]

  carve comedy gold out of it so thank you [TS]

  to the two of you even though I am [TS]

  slightly annoyed with you now I still [TS]

  find that conversational areas but we [TS]

  have some follow-up about Wranglers from [TS]

  David Crawford who writes in case you [TS]

  can tell John that this is the guy with [TS]

  the yellow four five eight speciali I [TS]

  probably I hope I pronounced that right [TS]

  I think I did anyway Quinta Fulvio [TS]

  yeah exactly and I can drive anything I [TS]

  want but when I run out to the garage to [TS]

  grab a car to run around town I jump in [TS]

  my jeep wrangler my Jeep is heavily [TS]

  modified was not intended as a daily [TS]

  driver but I find myself driving it more [TS]

  than anything because it's fun and [TS]

  nimble around [TS]

  any thoughts John I'd buy the fun part [TS]

  nimble nimble yeah fair I think nimble [TS]

  in this context means it's not a [TS]

  terribly long car I believe it was [TS]

  affordable spends a lot of time on two [TS]

  wheels it's very go here we go that's [TS]

  the thing though specifically for you [TS]

  like it it strikes me well first of all [TS]

  for this choice of cars if you've got a [TS]

  Ferrari a fancy Ferrari or a Jeep [TS]

  neither one of those is really a great [TS]

  car to you know drive around as a [TS]

  regular car because you're not gonna [TS]

  take your Ferrari to try to like go [TS]

  grocery shopping and scrape the front [TS]

  end trying to go into a gas station or [TS]

  whatever and a jeep like like fun cars [TS]

  like that whether they're fun sporty [TS]

  cars are fun like off-roading cars [TS]

  they're not really fun to go on like a [TS]

  45 minute highway trip in a Jeep [TS]

  Wrangler or a Ferrari like that's not [TS]

  what they're about so it seems to me [TS]

  that you're still as far as we can tell [TS]

  looking for like a they call a daily [TS]

  driver like a car that you can use every [TS]

  day and yeah you can use a jeep every [TS]

  day and you could use a Ferrari everyday [TS]

  but they're both there's a lot of big [TS]

  compromises with both of those things [TS]

  and that's far you've been looking at [TS]

  cars that are more like regular cars [TS]

  that also happen to have a fun side to [TS]

  them right I don't think either one of [TS]

  these cars is a good choice for you so [TS]

  forget about the four or five eight I [TS]

  know that was the second one on your [TS]

  list but yes totally within my budget I [TS]

  don't know I just I thought it was funny [TS]

  nevertheless that here's someone that [TS]

  could really drive anything and they [TS]

  chose they choose to have their Jeep [TS]

  that's why I suggested a go-kart [TS]

  remember I you think I'm making the joke [TS]

  I don't know if that was cut or whatever [TS]

  I suggested a go-kart because like it's [TS]

  it's like a it's like a fun toy to have [TS]

  like you can you know cool around on [TS]

  that and you know it's it's a vehicle [TS]

  but you're not gonna bring on a roads [TS]

  but it's just fun right it's way more [TS]

  fun than you would think these you're so [TS]

  low to the ground anyone doesn't go fast [TS]

  it feels fast and it corners and you [TS]

  know you're gonna go karts right they're [TS]

  fun and it gets that out of your system [TS]

  so you could just have a regular car [TS]

  there like works and keeps out the [TS]

  weather and doesn't roll over and it's [TS]

  safe and you know all that good stuff [TS]

  fair enough all right we got to get out [TS]

  a neutral I'm sorry let's talk about the [TS]

  iMac Pro since we're not going to do any [TS]

  of that today we can dive right in [TS]

  say that the iMac program upgrades and [TS]

  this is Rene Richie I guess saying you [TS]

  can't upgrade the RAM yourself but you [TS]

  can take it to an Apple store or [TS]

  certified service center and they can [TS]

  upgrade for you what now [TS]

  that's a Bret from Rene Richey so I'm [TS]

  assuming it's true rings right from [TS]

  Apple's mouth we you know we said that [TS]

  nothing is upgradable meaning like if [TS]

  you were to open it up yourself you're [TS]

  voiding your warranty or whatever blah [TS]

  blah blah but apparently you can bring [TS]

  it to Apple they're all great so as far [TS]

  as I'm concerned I mean as Marco pointed [TS]

  out I think and tweet replies this like [TS]

  then you have to pay apples prices for [TS]

  RAM which is ridiculous but at the very [TS]

  least it shows Apple not entirely [TS]

  closing the door wondering that also [TS]

  applies to like SSDs could you take it [TS]

  to Apple and say please take out this [TS]

  SSD and I will pay your crazy price too [TS]

  but have twice as big an SSD and you'll [TS]

  put it in there for me but I mean I [TS]

  still think the best bet is to just buy [TS]

  it how you want to configure it because [TS]

  all these upgrade options seem like [TS]

  they're expensive but you know this is I [TS]

  guess this is official from Apple if [TS]

  they're gonna do the upgrade then at [TS]

  least that's one option available to you [TS]

  if you don't mind the cost yeah and [TS]

  there are also third-party Apple [TS]

  authorized service centers so maybe you [TS]

  could get them to do it for you with [TS]

  third-party Ram that would be cheaper [TS]

  but that's a big maybe and it probably [TS]

  wouldn't be that much cheaper relatively [TS]

  speaking and then if you ever had to [TS]

  send it back into Apple you know they're [TS]

  gonna see that and they're gonna you [TS]

  know make you remove it or have a [TS]

  problem with it or something before [TS]

  they'd service the machine or something [TS]

  so like it's it's like having all the [TS]

  downside to having third-party RAM in [TS]

  your Mac that that have been forever of [TS]

  you know trouble with Apple servers [TS]

  sometimes and everything else you know [TS]

  everyone's gonna blame that for any [TS]

  problems you have but with the added [TS]

  complexity that you really can't get to [TS]

  it yourself to swap it in and out and it [TS]

  probably won't be that much cheaper so I [TS]

  feel like this there's basically two [TS]

  reasons why most people want upgradeable [TS]

  RAM in a Mac reason number one which is [TS]

  probably by far the most common is to [TS]

  save money from apples somewhat inflated [TS]

  costs and get cheaper RAM from somebody [TS]

  else reason number two is to buy it with [TS]

  one amount of RAM that you can like [TS]

  afford today [TS]

  and then in a few years increase the [TS]

  amount of RAM to extend its useful life [TS]

  time and by that point you will probably [TS]

  have more money and also the RAM will be [TS]

  cheaper this seems to maybe solve the [TS]

  second one but it almost certainly won't [TS]

  solve the first one and I feel like the [TS]

  first one is probably the more common [TS]

  case among people who would be following [TS]

  this kind of news and making this kind [TS]

  of comment so while it is nice that the [TS]

  RAM is upgradable by somebody the fact [TS]

  that it's not really upgradable by you [TS]

  is it might as well be not upgradable [TS]

  like I I'm with John I would strongly [TS]

  suggest that you order it with the [TS]

  amount of RAM that you will want for the [TS]

  long haul if at all possible I might pro [TS]

  input devices I I thought we had talked [TS]

  about this on the show very briefly but [TS]

  you can get both the blacked-out Magic [TS]

  Mouse and a blacked out trackpad and [TS]

  something like 150 bucks for both or [TS]

  there abouts I don't remember exactly [TS]

  how much you can yeah they can figure it [TS]

  it wasn't up when we were recording the [TS]

  show but we speculated like Oh what do [TS]

  you have to buy to IMAX to get both of [TS]

  them because they people gave the [TS]

  reviewer is both input devices which [TS]

  seemed weird if that's not a thing that [TS]

  you can buy but it totally is a thing [TS]

  you can buy yeah and I personally don't [TS]

  have any particular interest in the [TS]

  trackpad I know it works for a lot of [TS]

  people it's not really my cup of tea but [TS]

  if I were to order an iMac Pro which [TS]

  sitting here now I am not currently [TS]

  planning on there is zero chance that I [TS]

  would not get both devices because even [TS]

  even if I didn't end up using either the [TS]

  mouse or the trackpad you know that [TS]

  you'll be able to sell that thing for a [TS]

  billion dollars college fund series on [TS]

  black trackpad it's you're absolutely [TS]

  right unless there's some sort of like [TS]

  software like DRM for lack of a better [TS]

  phrase that that prevents them from [TS]

  working with anything but a iMac Pro [TS]

  which would be ridiculous the DRM is [TS]

  that it would crash and offend your [TS]

  sensibilities [TS]

  fair point I don't know I wonder [TS]

  genuinely once they start showing up how [TS]

  much the keyboard let's let how much do [TS]

  you think let's start with Marco how [TS]

  much do you think a key but what is it [TS]

  the the magic extended keyboard whatever [TS]

  it's called that and either pointing [TS]

  device doesn't matter which one just one [TS]

  pointing device how much do you think [TS]

  that combination will go for I'm like [TS]

  eBay or equivalent I'm guessing it goes [TS]

  for a little above what they would cost [TS]

  a treat [TS]

  I don't think it's gonna be a crazy [TS]

  amount if it is and if it is a crazy [TS]

  amount it's going to be only very [TS]

  briefly once they are in people's hands [TS]

  I don't think this is gonna be a big of [TS]

  a deal [TS]

  like because these are already not cheap [TS]

  right they're already like the tripods [TS]

  160 by itself like if you buy it at [TS]

  retail and the keyboards I don't how [TS]

  much keyboardist but you know and the [TS]

  mouse is is 100 I think or 80 and so [TS]

  like yeah maybe for the hundred $50 or [TS]

  trackpad you might get 200 bucks you [TS]

  know maybe maybe in the first week you [TS]

  might get 250 but I wouldn't expect it [TS]

  to be you know a bigger difference than [TS]

  that I would think it would be more I [TS]

  agree I don't think I don't think it's [TS]

  gonna be a big premium I was gonna say [TS]

  like a 50-buck premium for the first [TS]

  week and then sitting down after that [TS]

  especially when people find out that the [TS]

  keyboard pens we got some I didn't put [TS]

  it in fall but we did to get a bunch of [TS]

  feedback about that from people who had [TS]

  bent keyboards and some people actually [TS]

  did say that as far as they're aware [TS]

  they got it and it was fine out of the [TS]

  box and they used it for several months [TS]

  and eventually the middle touches when [TS]

  it didn't used to and to the point where [TS]

  it starts to like spin you know I don't [TS]

  know if that's from the force of typing [TS]

  or from like heat or something but you [TS]

  know like when if if the contact point [TS]

  becomes the middle and the size start to [TS]

  lift up and it can sort of start [TS]

  rotating itself that's no good and [TS]

  that's super weird I mean if it's [TS]

  happening it's happening but that's [TS]

  super weird finally people wrote in and [TS]

  pointed out to us that we miss talking [TS]

  about something but I'm pretty sure we [TS]

  missed it because it didn't happen until [TS]

  after we recorded and that is that the [TS]

  Mac Pro not the iMac pro but the Mac Pro [TS]

  will be quote-unquote upgradeable and so [TS]

  this is from an apple press release it [TS]

  reads in addition to the new iMac Pro [TS]

  apples working on a completely [TS]

  redesigned next generation Mac Pro [TS]

  architected for pro customers who need [TS]

  the highest performance high throughput [TS]

  system and a modular upgradable design [TS]

  as well as a new high-end Pro display [TS]

  now this isn't really news I don't [TS]

  believe but it is Apple saying yet it [TS]

  you know one more time no really [TS]

  everybody this is a thing or well will [TS]

  be a thing maybe one day and it should [TS]

  hopefully solve a lot of the problems [TS]

  that you guys justify it well I [TS]

  shouldn't say you too but in general [TS]

  people were complaining about and that [TS]

  is upgradability so Marco thoughts on [TS]

  that [TS]

  I mean this was pretty much my fault [TS]

  like we you know we recorded and I had [TS]

  said like you know be careful - you know [TS]

  taming expectations and upgradability [TS]

  because I thought all Apple had said [TS]

  before that point was that it would be [TS]

  modular not necessarily upgradable but [TS]

  then they released this press release [TS]

  with the iMac Pro which I think was [TS]

  actually earlier that day and we just [TS]

  didn't see it that says literally a [TS]

  modular upgradable design you can bring [TS]

  your pessimism back and say that that [TS]

  just the RAM will be upgradeable there's [TS]

  always room for there's always room for [TS]

  worry and also you know it might be a [TS]

  situation like what I was just rapping [TS]

  with the I my program which is like who [TS]

  can upgrade it is as only Apple gonna be [TS]

  able upgrade it also what upgrades will [TS]

  work in it will you be able to put in [TS]

  any GPU probably not will you be able to [TS]

  put in any Ram probably not you know any [TS]

  disk modules probably like you know [TS]

  there's gonna be limits on what you can [TS]

  put in it but there always were there [TS]

  were and and the but the limits have [TS]

  increased over time with with like the [TS]

  Mac Pro towers and everything also Durst [TS]

  technology has moved on like you know if [TS]

  you're talking about wanting for [TS]

  instance like what the old ones were [TS]

  very good about disk expansion but that [TS]

  was also before SSDs really like you [TS]

  know the SSD revolution started right at [TS]

  the end of the Mac Pro tower era really [TS]

  and so you could you could put as his DS [TS]

  into the Mac Pro tower but it was not [TS]

  designed for them up front like it was [TS]

  kind of a hack to get them in there if [TS]

  they weren't a PCI card and even then [TS]

  those were kind of a hack everything was [TS]

  about three and a half inch disks and [TS]

  optical drives and these days if you [TS]

  designed that you could argue like well [TS]

  it probably shouldn't include a three [TS]

  and a half inch disk bay at all because [TS]

  high-end customers probably are not [TS]

  using a lot of internal three and a half [TS]

  inch disks anymore so you know there's a [TS]

  lot has changed since the era of the [TS]

  upgradable tower and I don't even and [TS]

  you can even argue for performance [TS]

  reasons like you wouldn't want a whole [TS]

  bunch of like just serial ata bays in [TS]

  there because high-end SSDs are all [TS]

  using direct-attached methods now like [TS]

  their athlead attacks you the PCI bus [TS]

  and things like nvme and stuff like that [TS]

  so like there's not a lot of upgrade [TS]

  ability that Pro customers who are going [TS]

  to be buying the Mac Pro are actually [TS]

  going to [TS]

  beyond I think RAM disk space but not [TS]

  necessarily like a large amount number [TS]

  of physical disks and probably the [TS]

  number one is GPU upgrades [TS]

  ding-ding-ding I don't know whether [TS]

  they're gonna deliver that but but I [TS]

  think GPU and RAM are the big ones and [TS]

  this is kind of a secondary one I think [TS]

  this they can get away with especially [TS]

  if they have a way for you to you know [TS]

  like they can have the super high speed [TS]

  storage but then some standard for some [TS]

  slower bulk storage but anyway GPU is [TS]

  the big one that's what we're talking [TS]

  about last time GPUs keep getting faster [TS]

  because you can make them faster by just [TS]

  adding more transistors you can't do [TS]

  that with CPUs you haven't been able to [TS]

  for decade or more and so it's so [TS]

  important to be able to to do that you [TS]

  know even even if Apple won't that you [TS]

  can do that's why you know we talked for [TS]

  the GPS last time but more people I'm [TS]

  sending more links to people showing how [TS]

  cruddy old cheesegrater [TS]

  can be the iMac pro and all sorts of [TS]

  benchmarks if you just take a faster GPU [TS]

  and throw it in there and this is an [TS]

  ancient cheese grater like how did these [TS]

  new GPUs even working there because it's [TS]

  just it's just PCI Express right and [TS]

  it's just a standard card slot and how [TS]

  does the old Mac support it it supports [TS]

  it because then I Pro supports that an [TS]

  apple just made generic drivers for it [TS]

  and that Apple that's not an [TS]

  embarrassment for Apple but it's like [TS]

  Apple wants in on that action too hey [TS]

  we'll make a thing where you can put a [TS]

  new GPU in and people want that machine [TS]

  because like you know extending the life [TS]

  of the machine if you buy this the super [TS]

  expensive system that is upgradeable [TS]

  part of what you're paying for and we [TS]

  build into the price in some way is that [TS]

  this machine can last you a long time if [TS]

  you're doing GPU intensive work after a [TS]

  year or two of use you don't need to [TS]

  throw the machine out you just take the [TS]

  GPU out and put in one that's way faster [TS]

  for a couple hundred bucks and a new [TS]

  life for your machine that's that's what [TS]

  we all want that's the future liberals [TS]

  want we are sponsored this week by [TS]

  aftershocks bone conduction headphones [TS]

  go to ATP aftershocks calm to learn more [TS]

  aftershokz headphones work by bone [TS]

  conduction this means small transducers [TS]

  rest in front of your ears not inside or [TS]

  around them like most headphones and [TS]

  they send tiny vibrations that you can't [TS]

  even feel through your cheek bones [TS]

  directly to your inner ear which [TS]

  bypasses the outside of your ears [TS]

  completely so unlike every other kind of [TS]

  headphone bone conduction leave your [TS]

  ears completely [TS]

  open with nothing in them so for example [TS]

  this helps in comfort reasons if you [TS]

  can't wear earbuds or in-ear monitors [TS]

  without pain like I can't this doesn't [TS]

  have that problem because there's [TS]

  nothing in your ear they're also really [TS]

  great for exercising and hot weather [TS]

  because there's nothing covering your [TS]

  ear so it doesn't get you all sweaty and [TS]

  for exercising it's even better because [TS]

  or if it starts raining because they are [TS]

  ip55 certified for water resistance and [TS]

  the biggest thing about these headphones [TS]

  the biggest thing that I think decides [TS]

  whether they're right for you or not is [TS]

  because nothing is blocking your ears at [TS]

  all you hear all the sound from the [TS]

  world around you including what you're [TS]

  listening to [TS]

  so in loud surroundings this isn't so [TS]

  good but they are awesome if you want to [TS]

  listen to a podcast or take a phone call [TS]

  while doing something like walking [TS]

  outside where you really need to hear [TS]

  the world around you for your own safety [TS]

  they're also great for practical reasons [TS]

  like if you want to hear the world [TS]

  around you whether it's your home or [TS]

  your office or anything else and you [TS]

  want to hear like if someone knocks on [TS]

  the door you want to know about it or [TS]

  say your kid is sleeping upstairs they [TS]

  wake up you want to know about that with [TS]

  aftershocks you hear what's in the world [TS]

  around you as well as what you're [TS]

  listening to [TS]

  aftershocks has two great models that I [TS]

  recommend the Trek's titanium and the [TS]

  Trek's air they're both fantastic the [TS]

  air is the newer of the two I spend a [TS]

  number of months with each of them and [TS]

  you really can't go wrong the battery [TS]

  life is fantastic on both of them [TS]

  they're both very comfortable very [TS]

  lightweight the air is a little bit [TS]

  better for comfort and weight the [TS]

  titanium fits in a pocket better so [TS]

  either way either way you can't go wrong [TS]

  there they're both wonderful so check it [TS]

  out today go to ATP dot aftershocks com2 [TS]

  get a good deal on a nice pair of after [TS]

  truck strikes titanium or Trek's air [TS]

  once again ATP after shocks calm thank [TS]

  you so much to aftershock sponsoring our [TS]

  show as if I don't know to follow up did [TS]

  we order anything I will start and say I [TS]

  if not which I think I said a moment ago [TS]

  I still don't think I will [TS]

  although if I ever see one in an Apple [TS]

  store I'm gonna really have some tough [TS]

  thoughts because I've seen this thing at [TS]

  wabg seen it is pretty but it's rare [TS]

  that I do anything on my iMac [TS]

  that I have today that I feel like is [TS]

  truly an utterly constrained by [TS]

  something an iMac Pro would fix John did [TS]

  you order an iMac pro it's certainly you [TS]

  must have since this is the thing you've [TS]

  been waiting for for years isn't it I [TS]

  took a while for me to figure out what [TS]

  are you even talking I like what Marco [TS]

  was always gonna order once I know I [TS]

  didn't buy anything Oh Marco tell us [TS]

  about your configuration since we all [TS]

  know you did order one I think I ordered [TS]

  one what I ordered through the business [TS]

  rep but I haven't gotten the order [TS]

  confirmation email and my car has not [TS]

  been charged and it's been four days [TS]

  sometimes Marco blacks out when he buys [TS]

  is inexplicable I'm not entirely sure [TS]

  whether my order has actually been [TS]

  placed or whether it fell on the floor [TS]

  because that was a very busy day for [TS]

  them or something I have to follow up [TS]

  okay so if you ordered one what bill [TS]

  what are the highlights of what you [TS]

  think you are like if I did it all right [TS]

  10 core to put this in context the [TS]

  reason I ordered this computer is that [TS]

  TIFF wants it in six months and so she [TS]

  wants me to buy this now so that way [TS]

  when when the Mac Pro comes out I [TS]

  upgrade to that and I give her this [TS]

  so I basically configured it for TIFF [TS]

  which means that I got the really big [TS]

  SSD that was the big splurge the ten [TS]

  core 64 gigs of ram not 128 cuz any my [TS]

  current what's the really big SSD the [TS]

  four terabyte yeah for Tara what is she [TS]

  it for photos and stuff what she got [TS]

  mostly photos and stuff mostly and a [TS]

  couple of video stuff around too because [TS]

  like you know dealing with the photos [TS]

  and processing them into video sometimes [TS]

  and what what does she have like how [TS]

  much stuff does she have now like does [TS]

  she have more than four terabyte total [TS]

  storage like I you are you been you [TS]

  buying her a computer that's like twice [TS]

  as big as the one she has now in terms [TS]

  of primary storage or is it about the [TS]

  same size when we bought the the 2014's [TS]

  that we have now we've maxed it out but [TS]

  at the time that was one terabyte so [TS]

  it's one terabyte internal and she's had [TS]

  this 4 terabyte external thunderbolt [TS]

  raid array that literally is for one [TS]

  terabyte SSDs in raid 0 don't worry it's [TS]

  very much backed up to various places [TS]

  but that is now that's not an operating [TS]

  constantly for three years in this [TS]

  little enclosure with this dumb little [TS]

  fan [TS]

  I don't know how long it's gonna last [TS]

  I'd rather not depend on it for too much [TS]

  longer if any of those go bad the last [TS]

  thing I'm gonna want to do is buy a new [TS]

  one terabyte SSD in 2017 so kind of [TS]

  preparing for that to go away [TS]

  also I just hate having another box and [TS]

  fan and this hot thing all the federal [TS]

  stuff runs really hot like the all the [TS]

  controller chips that are in the end [TS]

  devices they run like red-hot that's why [TS]

  it needs is giant fans time for the SSDs [TS]

  yeah basically replacing that [TS]

  simplifying her setup and making it [TS]

  better so that's why I did that and [TS]

  again it was also kind of a phrase I'm [TS]

  like you know I could probably never [TS]

  upgrade these or at least I won't want [TS]

  to upgrade them because whatever will be [TS]

  involved and whatever it will cost would [TS]

  probably be crazy so yeah 4 terabyte but [TS]

  and that was a lot of money I'm not [TS]

  gonna try to candy-coat that that was [TS]

  ridiculous but you know the rest I kind [TS]

  of down the middle configuration below [TS]

  end GPU the middle Ram amount and the [TS]

  middle CPU I guess how did TIFF approve [TS]

  the low end GPU Oh interesting question [TS]

  it's wrist so if you do the research on [TS]

  the on the 56 versus the 64 it's not [TS]

  that different like it's and it seems [TS]

  like for what we do I don't think [TS]

  anything we do you would notice the [TS]

  difference at all because you know [TS]

  things like Photoshop and Lightroom they [TS]

  do use the GPU but not for a huge amount [TS]

  of stuff and they don't use it very hard [TS]

  and the way that we use these apps [TS]

  additionally you're probably thinking [TS]

  what about gaming but even for like for [TS]

  a most games she plays or not on the [TS]

  computer be it's still going to be a [TS]

  massive upgrade from what we have and [TS]

  see I don't think the gaming performance [TS]

  difference is going to be that big [TS]

  between those two well say yeah I'm I'm [TS]

  surprised so well I'm anxious to hear [TS]

  about this if and when it comes in if [TS]

  and when you even ordered it whether or [TS]

  not that was a fever dream we'll see if [TS]

  I haven't ordered it you want to make [TS]

  any edits when I resubmit the order [TS]

  actually I think John does it sounds [TS]

  reasonable to me I would get a big GPU [TS]

  this is not that much more right it's [TS]

  like a couple hundred bucks more I think [TS]

  like 600 more it's it's a 600 more [TS]

  that's the I elected to spend most of [TS]

  the craziness on the disk because that's [TS]

  well [TS]

  we use that that's doing the thing where [TS]

  when you you buying a car and it's so [TS]

  expensive that $150 the floormat seems [TS]

  like nothing same size whether you [TS]

  compare it to 30 grand or you compare it [TS]

  to 10 bucks it's always 150 it doesn't [TS]

  change size but you feel like it does so [TS]

  I can use that to persuade you given how [TS]

  much you paid for the SSD $600 for a [TS]

  better GPU is nothing like it's like [TS]

  formats not wrong you know $600 is way [TS]

  too much for the for the GPU speed [TS]

  upgrade but what you pay for the four [TS]

  terabyte is also a too much so you know [TS]

  I don't know I don't want to go for me [TS]

  it anyway talk to tip see what you I [TS]

  agree all right shall we do some ASCII [TS]

  TV let's do it [TS]

  so I try to discourage emailed [TS]

  submissions because that encourages a [TS]

  lack of brevity however every once in a [TS]

  while one sneaks through that I really [TS]

  like and you added this as show notes [TS]

  only because you beat me to it and this [TS]

  is Jade a Lu JD lewin writes I'm looking [TS]

  to dip my toe into the quote-unquote [TS]

  high quality headphone plus DAC digital [TS]

  analog converter market which led me to [TS]

  read some of Markos older blog posts at [TS]

  the moment the bear dynamic DT 880's [TS]

  which I'm pretty sure is what I have on [TS]

  my head right now [TS]

  7 7 News darn it I can be half four [TS]

  hundred two hundred dollars and and I [TS]

  fool fula I don't even know how to pull [TS]

  up thank you two for $90 this seems to [TS]

  be an affordable way to into a into [TS]

  dangerous waters my question is about [TS]

  source material will this setup be [TS]

  wasted on the AC files delivered through [TS]

  Apple music Spotify etc so Marco take it [TS]

  away yes so to ask the to answer the [TS]

  actual question of whether decent [TS]

  headphones will be wasted on playing AAC [TS]

  files from Apple music and Spotify no [TS]

  definitely not there is a point where [TS]

  some people claim that they can hear [TS]

  differences between AAC slash mp3 / [TS]

  other loss you can press formats and [TS]

  lossless music excuse me yeah see also [TS]

  high sample rates higher than 44.1 you [TS]

  know bit rates above 24-bit etc we [TS]

  talked about this before but but you [TS]

  know basically I'm not a believer in [TS]

  that being noticeable by most people I'm [TS]

  not sure if it was noted by any people [TS]

  but I at least with a few like blind [TS]

  tests that have been done seem to [TS]

  support that it really is not noticeable [TS]

  by almost anybody that's so whereas the [TS]

  difference in headphones like or [TS]

  speakers like like the difference in the [TS]

  actual transducers that are producing [TS]

  the music for you that can be huge [TS]

  differences in very noticeable ways so [TS]

  when you're looking for like you know [TS]

  places to spend money if you want to get [TS]

  a good upgrade a good bang for your buck [TS]

  spend that money on the headphones or [TS]

  the speakers and not on like the amps [TS]

  and the DAX and the fancy source [TS]

  material and the high bitrate everything [TS]

  like you will notice the headphones you [TS]

  will not notice the DAC and you will not [TS]

  notice the the source material being you [TS]

  know good or bad because unless it's [TS]

  encoded at very low bit rates like a 128 [TS]

  K mp3 or you know like about the same [TS]

  AAC like as long as it's higher than [TS]

  that basically you're probably not gonna [TS]

  notice it and and all the services now [TS]

  they all offer high-quality streaming if [TS]

  you have enough bandwidth that is high [TS]

  enough that you're not going to notice [TS]

  it so don't worry about that on the [TS]

  headphone topic itself the bear dynamic [TS]

  dt 880 is a very old headphone but still [TS]

  a very very good one and if it can be [TS]

  had for under 200 bucks that's a great [TS]

  deal there's a huge headphone revolution [TS]

  happening over the last few years lots [TS]

  and lots of amazing headphones are [TS]

  coming out and a lot of formerly fairly [TS]

  premium ones are being pushed down [TS]

  market that is one of them I highly [TS]

  suggest if you are a fan of treble in [TS]

  music and like if you if you like that [TS]

  kind of like crispness that that turning [TS]

  up the trouble a little bit offers you [TS]

  in music it doesn't if it doesn't sound [TS]

  harsh to you Bayer dynamic is a great [TS]

  company to look at their headphones tend [TS]

  to be a little treble heavy but if you [TS]

  like that they are wonderful they are [TS]

  also incredibly comfortable [TS]

  the downside is at the 880 like almost [TS]

  any good and especially due to an [TS]

  expensive headphone has an open back to [TS]

  the to the ear cups so that means if [TS]

  you've never use this before you're [TS]

  you're basically the drivers are kind of [TS]

  suspended in open air the backs of the [TS]

  headphones are just like screens they're [TS]

  not solid material and so a Iong tinny [TS]

  version of what you are [TS]

  - plays out to the to the room around [TS]

  you and they don't isolate you very well [TS]

  from outside sounds so this is really a [TS]

  terrible setup it's a terrible thing to [TS]

  use open headphones if you are in either [TS]

  a loud environment like walking around a [TS]

  city or if you are sharing an office [TS]

  with anybody because your music will be [TS]

  really annoyingly tinny and weird [TS]

  sounding to anyone else in the office [TS]

  they will hate you if you play [TS]

  headphones in that way but if you have [TS]

  like your own quiet space where there's [TS]

  not other people around to annoy open [TS]

  headphones are by far the best sound you [TS]

  can get for the money [TS]

  knotti it's not even close and there's [TS]

  basically three points that you need to [TS]

  know about in this market on the very [TS]

  low end you have the grado sr60 sounds [TS]

  amazing costs like 60 or 70 bucks but is [TS]

  pretty uncomfortable then you have the [TS]

  day or dynamic dt 880 which is the one [TS]

  that JD is asking about here [TS]

  they are great Tiff's use as a pair on [TS]

  at her desk still they're wonderful [TS]

  around 200 bucks very very comfortable [TS]

  everything about them is great except [TS]

  they have that open back which is you [TS]

  know impractical in certain contexts and [TS]

  then also if you don't like very strong [TS]

  treble you won't like either of those [TS]

  options if you like it more what they [TS]

  call laid-back sound where they kind of [TS]

  like roll off the treble it's very much [TS]

  like younger people tend to like this a [TS]

  little bit more because it kind of goes [TS]

  into like the soft is loud musical [TS]

  aesthetic that has been taken over [TS]

  recently in like emo music and stuff and [TS]

  whatever else that I'm probably mangling [TS]

  the terminology for if you like that if [TS]

  you don't like a lot of trouble and you [TS]

  like it to be very soft and like you [TS]

  know gentle on your ears the Sennheiser [TS]

  HD 650 used to be $600 and in recent [TS]

  years they've done a bunch of like [TS]

  special things or they've cut in the [TS]

  price at that or they're doing special [TS]

  editions with mass drop but it's still [TS]

  basically the HD 650 that is an amazing [TS]

  headphone it's old and it looks kind of [TS]

  weird it has like speckled plastic it's [TS]

  a very ugly thing but it's like it's an [TS]

  amazing sounding headphone if you can [TS]

  get it for below 300 bucks and if you [TS]

  don't like that strong treble that the [TS]

  bear that I make will give you so [TS]

  basically those my recommendations [TS]

  ignore the source material quality just [TS]

  get whatever you get don't be upset it's [TS]

  wonderful it'll be good enough and if [TS]

  you [TS]

  spend 60 bucks like any like treble and [TS]

  you don't like comfort get the great OSR [TS]

  60 if you if you want comfort and still [TS]

  like treble the DT 880 and if you don't [TS]

  like treble and you can spend like 300 [TS]

  bucks ish range the sennheiser HD 650 [TS]

  and on the dax side all of those can be [TS]

  driven perfectly fine from the headphone [TS]

  jack in any mac desktop or laptop the [TS]

  phone you won't get a lot of volume out [TS]

  of if you if you try to push it too high [TS]

  but you don't need an external DAC for [TS]

  any of those headphones you might get a [TS]

  little bit better performance in volume [TS]

  and maybe at the highest volumes maybe a [TS]

  little bit better bass especially this [TS]

  the HD 650 is the least efficient of all [TS]

  those that I just mentioned so that's [TS]

  the one that most would need one but [TS]

  you're pretty much fine without without [TS]

  that if you like if you just want to [TS]

  start just got a really nice pair of [TS]

  headphones that can work with the [TS]

  built-in headphone jack in your Mac [TS]

  which almost everything can you know I [TS]

  just like to say I agree with pretty [TS]

  much everything you said I don't know [TS]

  about specific recommendations of [TS]

  headphones I haven't bought headphones [TS]

  in a long time outside of my ear pods [TS]

  but I wanted to and I think I've done [TS]

  this every time you brought it up I [TS]

  wanted to concur with you about open [TS]

  headphones I have an ancient pair of [TS]

  Sennheiser's I don't even remember what [TS]

  model they are they're so damaged there [TS]

  are five nine eight maybe something like [TS]

  that I mean they're like easily ten [TS]

  years old at this point and I can dig up [TS]

  what they are doesn't really matter but [TS]

  suffice to say I have an ancient pair of [TS]

  Sennheiser open-air headphones and they [TS]

  are phenomenal they are truly truly [TS]

  great it is terrible to be within 30 [TS]

  feet of me when I was but but they are [TS]

  really really good and I also wanted to [TS]

  agree with you about the quality of the [TS]

  source material that you you can go flak [TS]

  if you want if you want to be one of [TS]

  those kind of nerds but again Marko was [TS]

  absolutely right that the best thing to [TS]

  do is change your headphones I will [TS]

  however say if you can stand in ear [TS]

  earbuds earphones whatever then ear [TS]

  monitors I thank you yeah well not even [TS]

  the custom mold ones I'm just talking [TS]

  about like a really really fancy pair of [TS]

  in-ear [TS]

  phones I think they're a lot more [TS]

  finicky I I don't think they're really [TS]

  worth it [TS]

  but I have a really fancy pair of now [TS]

  very discontinued Ultimate Ears in-ear [TS]

  headphone things and they are when [TS]

  they're seated properly they're the best [TS]

  headphones I have but to be fair to get [TS]

  them seated a hundred percent properly [TS]

  is a real pain in the butt so I still [TS]

  think Marcos right that doing something [TS]

  a traditional headphone preferably open [TS]

  air is a better choice but if you have [TS]

  ears that are conducive to in-ear things [TS]

  or are willing to spend the money to get [TS]

  your ears poured and you know get custom [TS]

  molds made to get im's like Marco just [TS]

  brought up that is probably the money no [TS]

  object you know effort no object best in [TS]

  most effective way to get good [TS]

  headphones in my personal opinion but a [TS]

  lot of people don't really agree with [TS]

  that hello Marco and other people don't [TS]

  want to spend that money and don't want [TS]

  to be bothered hello both of us oh it's [TS]

  not the it's not the best answer unless [TS]

  you're really really going deep into [TS]

  this world but it's worth at least [TS]

  mentioning all right Jeremy Nachman [TS]

  writes I've never had much interest in [TS]

  cars personally but I have a nine year [TS]

  old who seems to have an interest do you [TS]

  have any car magazine recommendations [TS]

  the kids would enjoy doesn't necessarily [TS]

  need to be one targeting a kids audience [TS]

  when I was growing up and I was about [TS]

  this age I used to love reading Car and [TS]

  Driver and I don't pay attention to [TS]

  print magazines very much anymore and I [TS]

  know John you do so I'm gonna turn it [TS]

  over to you in a second but last I saw a [TS]

  car driver was still pretty good Motor [TS]

  Trend was okay you can also get a lot of [TS]

  really good stuff on YouTube and that's [TS]

  not even like me trying to plug myself [TS]

  although hey Casey on cars is a new [TS]

  series you might want to look at so here [TS]

  I am plugging myself but uh but no like [TS]

  the Motor Trend stuff that's on YouTube [TS]

  is actually very very good and very [TS]

  digestible and not too bro II generally [TS]

  speaking there's plenty of car stuff on [TS]

  YouTube that is very bro II and I [TS]

  wouldn't necessarily recommend for a [TS]

  nine year old but the Motor Trend stuff [TS]

  is good in terms of magazines car and [TS]

  driver John additional thoughts yeah the [TS]

  kid angle on this is what makes it [TS]

  difficult because I still watch a lot of [TS]

  car stuff on YouTube and [TS]

  I have in the past subscribe to I think [TS]

  every car every straight car magazine [TS]

  like you know truck magazines or you [TS]

  know hotrod magazines or more specialty [TS]

  type of stuff which may be what you had [TS]

  ends up getting into but for car [TS]

  magazines car driver is still my gold [TS]

  standard but the reason I have trouble [TS]

  recommending this for a kid is because [TS]

  like when you think of car magazines [TS]

  like in the worst case scenario you're [TS]

  thinking of like some Hot Rod Magazine [TS]

  where every single month is there's a [TS]

  girl in a bikini sitting on the roof of [TS]

  a car and you're like oh I'm not gonna [TS]

  buy those for my kids because that's you [TS]

  know I don't want to spread that kind of [TS]

  message about how the stuff works but [TS]

  here's the problem with even car and [TS]

  driver which I think has some of the [TS]

  best car riding and has for many years [TS]

  now it is relentlessly unconsciously [TS]

  sexist like it is in every pore of that [TS]

  magazine and you think there's no girls [TS]

  in bikinis on the cover like it's fine [TS]

  right it's not though like every article [TS]

  is written assuming the the person [TS]

  reading it is a man like every joke [TS]

  every gag every cover image I really [TS]

  like so much so that they they don't [TS]

  even know they're doing it they don't [TS]

  even think that there could possibly be [TS]

  another joke they don't make any attempt [TS]

  like and and then there's some [TS]

  right-wing politics this turn on there [TS]

  but I think that's less harmful because [TS]

  it's it's you know mixed up everything [TS]

  else so I have trouble recommending that [TS]

  young people start their life in cars [TS]

  reading a magazine that assumes the only [TS]

  people who ever be into cars are men [TS]

  because that's not healthy for anybody [TS]

  involved so I would say the YouTube has [TS]

  a higher chance of being sort of more [TS]

  welcoming at least the YouTube channels [TS]

  I've seen there are many things to not [TS]

  recommend them and there are of course [TS]

  you know YouTube channels with terrible [TS]

  bro people saying terrible Brobee things [TS]

  what else is new it's the Internet but [TS]

  hey I think kids are more likely to get [TS]

  into that then you know paper magazines [TS]

  which come on who reads those and B I [TS]

  think you might have a better chance of [TS]

  steering your kid towards a more [TS]

  inclusive YouTube channel because [TS]

  honestly I don't know of any magazines [TS]

  that aren't if a car and driver is is [TS]

  probably the best one automobile [TS]

  is fairly good too but just all those [TS]

  carvings just assume you are a guy [TS]

  reading a car magazine and they half the [TS]

  time they don't even know they're [TS]

  assuming it and it's it's not it's not a [TS]

  good look and it's not something that I [TS]

  would recommend a young person get into [TS]

  because while I perpetuate that let me [TS]

  just put out a call that if you are [TS]

  listening to this and you know of a [TS]

  YouTube channel hosted by a woman that's [TS]

  really good that's about cars or know an [TS]

  author that's you know either a blogger [TS]

  or you know a particular author to look [TS]

  at any of these car magazines that's a [TS]

  woman I would love to know that because [TS]

  I certainly only hear dudes of various [TS]

  bro eNOS talking about cars I'd love to [TS]

  hear you know a different perspective on [TS]

  that so or maybe not even a woman just a [TS]

  different perspective I mean to find [TS]

  that however you'd like but I'd love to [TS]

  hear it so feel free to tweet at me and [TS]

  let me know and by the way Jeremy Jeremy [TS]

  didn't say whether his kid was girl or [TS]

  boy and I don't think it matters like [TS]

  you shouldn't if your if your kid is [TS]

  like a little boy who's super into cars [TS]

  he shouldn't be reading a magazine that [TS]

  assumes everybody who reading it as a [TS]

  dude either like that's it's not there's [TS]

  nothing to do with the gender of the [TS]

  child or anything like that it's just [TS]

  like what I'm getting is print is old [TS]

  and it is mostly dominated by old people [TS]

  with old opinions and even has new [TS]

  writers have come in and I think I made [TS]

  a tweet a couple years ago to the effect [TS]

  that you could see the change over on [TS]

  the writing staff of Car and Driver when [TS]

  they started making a jokes and the [TS]

  captions are their images that reference [TS]

  things like Star Trek or you wouldn't [TS]

  have seen that when like Brock Yates was [TS]

  still writing or whatever like there is [TS]

  a changing of the guard but it's still [TS]

  it's still the the boys club and there's [TS]

  no reason it should be there's nothing [TS]

  there's nothing gendered about cars [TS]

  right so that's disappointing it in [TS]

  YouTube I feel like is slightly better [TS]

  it's also worse like you know the [TS]

  equivalent of the bikini girls on the [TS]

  hoods those YouTube channels totally [TS]

  exist to write so you know the Internet [TS]

  is a big place so be careful all right [TS]

  and finally from Jeff e sue ECC Ram [TS]

  seems to make sense for high stakes [TS]

  contexts like Finance space like space [TS]

  travel etc what practical effects do you [TS]

  expect it to have on it on a Mac have [TS]

  you ever noticed a flip bit on your [TS]

  machine do you just find it cool as a [TS]

  nerd and or want it for peace of mind so [TS]

  John can you kind of do a recap for us [TS]

  and what ECC Ram is why this is relevant [TS]

  now and then [TS]

  answered that a couple pass shows we had [TS]

  debates about importance names for [TS]

  error-correcting where if they're you [TS]

  know they send the information from RAM [TS]

  but they also have a bit to check [TS]

  whether the information you're getting [TS]

  is accurately represented you think it [TS]

  was like a parity bit or whatever but I [TS]

  think it's more complicated than that [TS]

  these days but anyway usually they have [TS]

  the bit to recover the ability to [TS]

  recover from small errors like a one bit [TS]

  error they can correct that on the fly [TS]

  because they know which bit is often [TS]

  what it should be instead and so as you [TS]

  know what would have been some bad data [TS]

  coming out of RAM gets two corrected to [TS]

  the right data [TS]

  why would bad data come out of RAM [TS]

  that's the question about what what [TS]

  errors are you correcting who cares if [TS]

  you have error correcting ability in [TS]

  your RAM chips Ram chips don't make any [TS]

  many errors they're solid-state [TS]

  components everything is perfect about [TS]

  them right unfortunately everything in [TS]

  the world digital is under the covers [TS]

  analog until you get down to the quantum [TS]

  level but we're not going to get into [TS]

  that I have limits somewhere yeah so the [TS]

  question is how often these errors come [TS]

  up and last time we talked about this we [TS]

  cited a bunch of studies we'll put two [TS]

  links into the show notes about two semi [TS]

  recent ones one of them was a 2009 study [TS]

  that was supposedly saying that the [TS]

  error rates in RAM are much higher than [TS]

  it previously measured something like 25 [TS]

  to 70,000 errors per billion device [TS]

  hours per megabit with errors on more [TS]

  than 8% of dims and there's an IBM study [TS]

  in the 90s looking at like the causes of [TS]

  this like you know radiation from space [TS]

  essentially flipping your bits assuming [TS]

  you're not in something that is shielded [TS]

  from cosmic rays producing one error per [TS]

  256 megabytes of RAM per month and you [TS]

  know you can sell it from the 90s [TS]

  because it talked about too much you [TS]

  know so one error per two hundred [TS]

  physics megawatts a ram per month that's [TS]

  not a small number if we have four gigs [TS]

  of RAM right or 16 gigs or whatever you [TS]

  have errors happen now the question is [TS]

  alright so who care who care is a bit is [TS]

  flipped what does that manifest in some [TS]

  way if you got unlucky [TS]

  it could take your whole computer down [TS]

  but chances are good nothing will happen [TS]

  because that bit didn't matter like [TS]

  there are so many bits that just don't [TS]

  matter not even that it gets corrupted [TS]

  and ends up in the [TS]

  maybe that bit just didn't matter at all [TS]

  or you know it changed something [TS]

  it changed the the color of a pixel in a [TS]

  way that you couldn't detect or it just [TS]

  ended up in some garbage data at the end [TS]

  of you know at the end of some buffer [TS]

  that never got reached like it maybe it [TS]

  just doesn't matter it came out of RAM [TS]

  and I got over and with something else [TS]

  but every once in a while it does matter [TS]

  and the reason people use ECC is because [TS]

  they think you know that for the small [TS]

  incremental cost of having ECC Ram maybe [TS]

  it saves you from four you know four [TS]

  computers that run a really long time [TS]

  and uptime is important and correctness [TS]

  is important this is the the best we [TS]

  have to get a little bit more safety for [TS]

  not that much more cost and that's why [TS]

  servers use it and that's why fancy [TS]

  high-end desktop so server hardware use [TS]

  it and I think a lot of it for nerds [TS]

  like us is like well it doesn't cost [TS]

  that much more and it makes us not [TS]

  anymore reliable so let's do it but you [TS]

  know how it's not like a light comes on [TS]

  when it tells you just saved you from [TS]

  something because kind of like the Big [TS]

  Sky theory in aviation the big RAM [TS]

  theory is the chances of one of those [TS]

  bit flips actually affecting something [TS]

  you do in a way that you noticed is [TS]

  actually pretty low but it just you know [TS]

  it doesn't make us feel better so the [TS]

  answer's no there's no reason basically [TS]

  no I mean the reason is that it does [TS]

  improve things and it doesn't cost that [TS]

  much more if it was seven times the cost [TS]

  it would be ridiculous but just a little [TS]

  bit more and so you're like yeah why not [TS]

  why not do that for a little bit more [TS]

  also and I this could just be terrible [TS]

  anok data you know but just anecdotally [TS]

  my Mac Pros have been the most stable [TS]

  solid machines I've owned and I've gone [TS]

  I've used laptops full time I've used an [TS]

  iMac full time and I've used Mac Pro's [TS]

  full time and it's just it's very very [TS]

  different the Mac pros were always the [TS]

  most stable machines by far you didn't [TS]

  keep the trashcans long enough for your [TS]

  GPUs to overheat so I didn't use GPUs [TS]

  heavily enough yeah when I turn me like [TS]

  you know eight or nine months I had one [TS]

  it was rock-solid we were sponsored this [TS]

  week by Backblaze unlimited cloud backup [TS]

  for Macs and PCs for just $5 a month [TS]

  visit Backblaze comm slash ATP to get a [TS]

  15-day free trial [TS]

  you need online backup because if you [TS]

  are only backed up to say a hard drive [TS]

  next to your computer in your office to [TS]

  your house you aren't protected from [TS]

  things like fire floods theft power [TS]

  surges or just human errors that could [TS]

  accidentally wipe the data on that hard [TS]

  drive or damage that hard drive in [TS]

  addition to the one in your computer [TS]

  with cloud backup you have a wonderful [TS]

  failsafe option that can cover all sorts [TS]

  of different risks that a local backup [TS]

  can't you also have very convenient [TS]

  feature so for instance if you have a [TS]

  cloud backup you can do things like [TS]

  restore a file from your home computer [TS]

  onto a laptop when you're on vacation if [TS]

  you if you need to work on that file you [TS]

  forgot to bring it with you you can also [TS]

  do the same thing from their mobile app [TS]

  right onto your phone so if you're on [TS]

  your phone and need to get a file from [TS]

  your home computer you can just restore [TS]

  it with their app for ios and android [TS]

  right onto your phone it's very very [TS]

  convenient if you need to do a whole [TS]

  system restore if you lose all your data [TS]

  you need to actually restore from the [TS]

  cloud you can use their website to [TS]

  download it immediately or you can have [TS]

  them overnight you a hard drive via [TS]

  FedEx and if you return the hard drive [TS]

  back to them when you're done you get a [TS]

  full refund it's a win-win Backblaze has [TS]

  restored over 20 billion files for their [TS]

  customers and all this is available for [TS]

  just $5 a month per computer with [TS]

  unlimited space unlimited bandwidth [TS]

  unlimited usage $5 a month per computer [TS]

  that's it [TS]

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  pay it is wonderful I've used it for [TS]

  years now since before they were a [TS]

  sponsor I pay for it like everyone else [TS]

  and it is great if you won't have cloud [TS]

  backup yet I highly highly urge you you [TS]

  really should have cloud backup for your [TS]

  own safety and if you're gonna get cloud [TS]

  backup I recommend Backblaze it is the [TS]

  best one I've tried and I've tried them [TS]

  all so check it out today Backblaze comm [TS]

  /a TP start today really Backblaze calm [TS]

  slash a TP for the best cloud backup [TS]

  service five bucks a month unlimited [TS]

  space thank you so much to back place [TS]

  for sponsoring our show I have questions [TS]

  about the iMac pros / Mac Pro as someone [TS]

  who used to know the ins and outs of [TS]

  what the current processors were in GPUs [TS]

  and things of that nature like 20 years [TS]

  ago when I was building my own pcs I [TS]

  have not kept [TS]

  up in a long time and it seems like and [TS]

  I might even get this backwards so jump [TS]

  in and correct me but it seems like [TS]

  everyone is really perturbed that the [TS]

  iMac Pro is only coming with an AMD [TS]

  graphics card and apparently it's bit [TS]

  like nvidia or bust in the graphics card [TS]

  department can one of you guys explain [TS]

  to me like a do I even have that right [TS]

  be why and see then why isn't Apple [TS]

  offering Nvidia cards and why are they [TS]

  so committed to AMD or gear or at least [TS]

  what's your best guess if nothing else [TS]

  John do you want to kind of talk me [TS]

  through this the Nvidia thing we talked [TS]

  about this before about who at various [TS]

  times in our life using computers has [TS]

  been the GPU performance King you know [TS]

  like starting from I guess the voodoo3 [TS]

  Hayes I remember those days [TS]

  3d effects and you know anyway did you [TS]

  did that Mac I think we talked about [TS]

  this months and months ago but to the [TS]

  Mac ever have the thing where you had a [TS]

  little stubby VGA cable to connect the [TS]

  2d card to the 3d card do you know what [TS]

  I'm talking about that's pretty sure it [TS]

  did not ever have anything like that the [TS]

  Mac never had gaming or VGA you know [TS]

  exactly what I'm talking about that [TS]

  don't you mark I was like you had one of [TS]

  these yeah we connect to your 3d effects [TS]

  accelerator card yeah yeah those are the [TS]

  days sorry anyway John Kerry oh yeah so [TS]

  so you know as the market is [TS]

  consolidated it's settled down in the [TS]

  latter years as being a TI versus Nvidia [TS]

  and occasionally they would swap places [TS]

  of what generation of card you know does [TS]

  they would realize their architectures [TS]

  and then they would have multiple cards [TS]

  and you'd have overclocked cards and [TS]

  stuff and then they've advised ARCA [TS]

  anyway at various points Nvidia had the [TS]

  fastest meaning like basically for games [TS]

  like who can run insert hot 3d game here [TS]

  the fastest sometimes it was Nvidia [TS]

  sometimes it was AMD if you've looked at [TS]

  the swings it seems that in both the [TS]

  most recent years and Vidya has been on [TS]

  top more but it really depends on the [TS]

  specific application but for right now [TS]

  and Ruby is on top in a lot of markets [TS]

  and games I think they're on top [TS]

  because they make a lot of cars that [TS]

  make sacrifices in precision for the [TS]

  purposes of performance and very often [TS]

  ATI which is now AMD would tell you yeah [TS]

  that's fine but if you want to do real [TS]

  serious work with like a program that [TS]

  requires higher precision that AMD is [TS]

  better or whatever but also because [TS]

  nvidia and AMD have chosen different [TS]

  platforms for compute on GPUs and [TS]

  Nvidia's the one that they're what is [TS]

  there is a CUDA da cunha yeah is right [TS]

  now more popular and so we had someone [TS]

  actually write in to us about this this [TS]

  is Daniel who said in addition to mvu [TS]

  being faster there's lots of software [TS]

  now that uses GPU acceleration but only [TS]

  nvidia so their application software [TS]

  written it's accelerated for GPUs but [TS]

  literally only accelerated by the NVIDIA [TS]

  GPUs the examples gives us redshift and [TS]

  my and 3d new plugins for new kiddie and [TS]

  go ghosts on the 2d side so part of it [TS]

  is like just market success that Nvidia [TS]

  was able to convince software makers of [TS]

  these big expensive for our obligations [TS]

  to write their software to only be [TS]

  accelerated by Nvidia cards so that [TS]

  forget about who's faster forever who's [TS]

  bet has better cards or whatever if it [TS]

  literally won't work with AMD graphics [TS]

  cards [TS]

  that's bad like it'll you know but to [TS]

  run in an accelerated mode and then [TS]

  secondarily if you're into games there [TS]

  are lots of other applications chances [TS]

  are that right now and video sells the [TS]

  absolute fastest card they'll run [TS]

  whatever your GPU thing is the fastest [TS]

  that's why we had the question a while [TS]

  back was saying if the Mac proto's and [TS]

  support Nvidia is it a failure or [TS]

  whatever I don't think it is for the [TS]

  most part and you know if you have to [TS]

  use one of the application there's only [TS]

  so acceleration video chance is good you [TS]

  haven't had a Mac in a long time because [TS]

  for whatever reason I'm not sure what [TS]

  the reason is but for whatever reason [TS]

  Mac's have not shipped with NVIDIA GPUs [TS]

  either standard or optional for a long [TS]

  time now so it's not as if people are [TS]

  out there using Mac's with Nvidia [TS]

  graphics card waiting to upgrade all [TS]

  these people are using these programs [TS]

  presumably are already using pcs anyway [TS]

  that's why I think people are concerned [TS]

  about the Nvidia situation because part [TS]

  of the promise of the Mac Pro is it's a [TS]

  modular system and it's upgradable but [TS]

  how upgradable is it really if you can [TS]

  you can only ever put in new and the [TS]

  graphics cards I mean that's great like [TS]

  lets you extend life in the machine like [TS]

  we said before but there was a time that [TS]

  mitts on Mac users may remember when you [TS]

  could buy a Mac like the one sitting [TS]

  next to me right now they could run [TS]

  cards from both of those manufacturers [TS]

  and that time was good and we would like [TS]

  that harm to return yeah I think I mean [TS]

  some other angles to consider I mean so [TS]

  first of all the the explanation of why [TS]

  we have not seen any new Macs with [TS]

  NVIDIA GPUs in something like three or [TS]

  four years is possibly related to there [TS]

  was a massive series of NVIDIA GPU [TS]

  failures and MacBook Pros we heard [TS]

  rumblings here and there from various [TS]

  uncredible sources that like there might [TS]

  be some kind of big political rift with [TS]

  that between Apple and NVIDIA from that [TS]

  time but it does certainly seem like [TS]

  there is definitely like it is a choice [TS]

  that Apple is making not to not to ship [TS]

  an NVIDIA GPUs in all of their computers [TS]

  since a few years ago it is not just [TS]

  coincidence and on that issue though on [TS]

  it being a choice which again I have [TS]

  heard as well the weird part about it is [TS]

  that modern Apple especially has always [TS]

  been really enthusiastic but always [TS]

  having two suppliers for everything that [TS]

  it does like you know even just like [TS]

  because if they get themselves in [TS]

  situation when there's one they get into [TS]

  something to a Qualcomm situation and [TS]

  they're just like they need someone to [TS]

  play off of but everything the RAM who's [TS]

  manufacturing their systems on a chip [TS]

  like SSDs screens best case Apple wants [TS]

  to have two sources not just for [TS]

  redundancy but so that you don't become [TS]

  under the thumb of one like you could be [TS]

  under the thumb of Qualcomm it's like [TS]

  who else you gonna go to no one else can [TS]

  make your radio chips hahaha like so it [TS]

  would be who Happel to go to both of [TS]

  them and play them off each other who [TS]

  knows maybe that's exactly what they're [TS]

  doing in anybody it just keeps losing [TS]

  losing the contract but from the outside [TS]

  it just seems like they are now a single [TS]

  single vendor source for their GPUs and [TS]

  that can't be healthy I mean and maybe [TS]

  the long-term plan is gonna make its own [TS]

  GPUs because it's a core part of their [TS]

  business and they kind of have been [TS]

  doing that on the you know the portable [TS]

  side was it business the first one [TS]

  that's all their own GPU with no [TS]

  imagination tech I have [TS]

  leave so yeah but they haven't done that [TS]

  on the Mac and they probably won't pick [TS]

  us for all the reasons that we've [TS]

  discussed before about investment in the [TS]

  Mac but it just it just still seems [TS]

  weird to me that it seems it's a much [TS]

  more natural fit for apples business [TS]

  practices to be supporting both but they [TS]

  haven't recently well I think there's [TS]

  there's a couple angles here I mean [TS]

  number one like you might be right like [TS]

  AMD just might be winning all these bids [TS]

  because it certainly seems clear that [TS]

  Apple has a pretty good relationship [TS]

  with AMD and for things like if you look [TS]

  at the 2013 trash trashcan Mac Pro those [TS]

  were like total custom GPUs like just [TS]

  for that that AMD made for made you know [TS]

  to add apples order so like there's [TS]

  clearly like a lot of a good [TS]

  relationship there where like AMD will [TS]

  probably make Apple pretty much whatever [TS]

  they asked for which is and and the the [TS]

  pricing that they give Apple appears to [TS]

  be pretty good like if you look at the [TS]

  workstation GPU pricing that that AMD [TS]

  charges and then you look at what Apple [TS]

  gives you in like the stock [TS]

  configuration of the Mac Pro and the [TS]

  iMac Pro it does seem like AMD is giving [TS]

  Apple a pretty good deal so it could [TS]

  just be that but they're you're you're [TS]

  right that Apple does have two suppliers [TS]

  for a lot of things one of the big ones [TS]

  that they don't is Intel for their CPUs [TS]

  and I may be you know ironically the the [TS]

  winner of that bid otherwise would be [TS]

  AMD but but you know maybe they have a [TS]

  similar relationship with AMD on the GPU [TS]

  side that they have with Intel on the [TS]

  CPU side which is kind of this like you [TS]

  know assured exclusivity and it's [TS]

  changed for their good relationship with [TS]

  AMD and you know the difference is that [TS]

  Intel can give them the very best chips [TS]

  of that kind in the world or at AMD at [TS]

  various times cannot and although this [TS]

  also brings in a topic they kept getting [TS]

  pushed down in the show notes but the [TS]

  several weeks ago or months ago deal [TS]

  where Intel is bundling AMD GPUs and [TS]

  sort of like not on the same die but [TS]

  like in the same package yeah yeah there [TS]

  and so that's an interesting synergy [TS]

  between apples to favored vendors and [TS]

  and you know Intel like it makes some [TS]

  sense to me that was going with Intel [TS]

  that if am you know there's there's that [TS]

  relationship and there's the you know [TS]

  IBM even more so than AMD has proven [TS]

  that they will make one-off custom chips [TS]

  for Apple like in the MacBook Air and [TS]

  the back in the old days and it's a lot [TS]

  of speculation that [TS]

  the reason Intelli put so much work into [TS]

  its internal GPUs with the embedded dram [TS]

  and all that stuff is because that's [TS]

  what Apple wanted them to do so [TS]

  I'm sure Apple likes your relationship [TS]

  where they have a big say in what [TS]

  products get generated and honestly if [TS]

  the the competitor Intel is not [TS]

  particularly competitive and we get back [TS]

  to again Apple probably wants to just [TS]

  make its own chips if it ever if it ever [TS]

  comes to that but the difference in that [TS]

  scenario is there is no software that [TS]

  only runs accelerated on the MDD PMD [TS]

  CPUs right [TS]

  like it's not it's not the Nvidia [TS]

  situation where there's a whole classes [TS]

  of software that are written to CUDA and [TS]

  and and you know overall like there is a [TS]

  huge difference in the results here [TS]

  because you know as you as you briefly [TS]

  alluded to like Intel if you are Intel [TS]

  exclusive for your PC CPUs you're fine [TS]

  because the vast majority of the time [TS]

  Intel is the leader in that race usually [TS]

  by a pretty big margin AMD CPU business [TS]

  has been second run basically sends like [TS]

  the Pentium for like it had a good run [TS]

  there for a little while where it was [TS]

  king but then it wasn't so if if it was [TS]

  the other way around if Apple had had [TS]

  this great relationship with AMD for the [TS]

  CPUs and would never used Intel CPUs [TS]

  they'd have a pretty big problem that [TS]

  they used wouldn't be very competitive a [TS]

  lot of the time and the problem is they [TS]

  now have that problem on the GPU side [TS]

  run on the GPU side I think they do ok [TS]

  with power per watt but they don't have [TS]

  the the sheer performance edge that they [TS]

  that they would have if NVIDIA was their [TS]

  only supplier or if they would use both [TS]

  like they used to you know it used to be [TS]

  that like you know every generation of [TS]

  like a Mac or a MacBook Pro like it they [TS]

  would like alternate between which [TS]

  vendor they were supplying just whoever [TS]

  had like the most compelling one that [TS]

  they could get in a volume or whatever [TS]

  else like but by going seemingly am the [TS]

  only for GPUs for the least the last few [TS]

  years I think it is really starting to [TS]

  hurt them especially at the high end [TS]

  I've heard from so many people who see [TS]

  the news about the iMac Pro or the Mac [TS]

  Pro and just write it off as sorry we [TS]

  can't do that because it doesn't support [TS]

  CUDA and the only thing that that my [TS]

  be an escape valve here is external GPU [TS]

  support you know I think with [TS]

  Thunderbolt 3 now supporting external [TS]

  GPU boxes that might be their answer [TS]

  like it might it might it might be like [TS]

  we're gonna keep using AMD for our main [TS]

  GPUs but if you're a pro customer and [TS]

  you want a CUDA card for your work maybe [TS]

  putting it in a thunderbolt chassis is [TS]

  close enough the benchmarks still [TS]

  especially for these applications that [TS]

  need this like that's where the [TS]

  bandwidth actually does come in doesn't [TS]

  come in in games probably if you're just [TS]

  interested in games you can probably get [TS]

  away with any GPU but for all these [TS]

  fancy computational things actually send [TS]

  a lot of data back and forth Thunderbolt [TS]

  isn't you know it's not even close to [TS]

  the bandwidth of an internal card [TS]

  I think bare feets also has done [TS]

  benchmarks with that to like you know [TS]

  let's try a MacBook Pro with an e GPU [TS]

  versus the iMac pro with this internal [TS]

  versus a good old cheese grater with [TS]

  some $900 Nvidia graphic card shoved [TS]

  into this ancient internals from 20 L 10 [TS]

  or 11 and the stupid cheese grater wins [TS]

  every time because it's an internal GPU [TS]

  with more bandwidth than everybody else [TS]

  and it's got the fastest the latest card [TS]

  from Nvidia and so like I guess I've [TS]

  been the person originally asked the [TS]

  question would the Mac probably fail [TS]

  product I don't think so I mean it's [TS]

  silly that Apple won't support it if [TS]

  it's like some weird political reason or [TS]

  whatever but whatever you know if you [TS]

  buy a computer with the fastest [TS]

  available GPU next year it's not the [TS]

  fastest GPU anymore and so if you just [TS]

  pretend every Mac Pro you're buying is [TS]

  already year old as long as you can [TS]

  either a upgrade it so that every single [TS]

  year you can buy a faster GPU or be that [TS]

  Apple revises it and so every year if [TS]

  you bought a new one it has a faster GPU [TS]

  in it you like the worst situation is [TS]

  they they put it out with a competitive [TS]

  pretty fast GPU that may actually by the [TS]

  way be faster in your particular thing [TS]

  because if you're not running games and [TS]

  you're not running a CUDA acceleration [TS]

  sometimes the AMD GPU is the fastest [TS]

  really depends on what you're doing but [TS]

  the trick is you need some way to stay [TS]

  on that performance path the fact you [TS]

  can't have the fastest one then just [TS]

  never offer another GPU for three years [TS]

  and not have it be upgradable so the [TS]

  people need some way to every year reap [TS]

  the benefits of the embarrassing [TS]

  parallelism [TS]

  of the graphics world and that's that's [TS]

  what the Mac Pro has to deliver if you [TS]

  can't deliver nvidia that's a bummer for [TS]

  some people but what it has to deliver [TS]

  is the ability to get back on the GPU [TS]

  train you can put in the all aboard [TS]

  screen from crazy train right here Marco [TS]

  I was going to put on back on the train [TS]

  by fish no I do not approve of that [TS]

  crazy train every podcast needs a viper [TS]

  slap we are brought to you this week by [TS]

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  Squarespace we know how to like get a [TS]

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  build our own CMS from scratch but then [TS]

  we also for honest with ourselves we [TS]

  know that that never takes as fast as we [TS]

  want it to and there's always additional [TS]

  overhead to managing it that we probably [TS]

  shouldn't need to worry about things [TS]

  like security updates and patches and [TS]

  backups and caching and keeping it up [TS]

  and if we get you know a prominent link [TS]

  from somewhere and everything else and [TS]

  the reality is with Squarespace you [TS]

  don't have to worry about any of that [TS]

  and that's probably a better use of your [TS]

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  with Squarespace instead of doing it [TS]

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  get 10 [TS]

  get 10 [TS]

  like I I'm not afraid if I'm talking to [TS]

  my Apple I'm not afraid of like you know [TS]

  if I say the wrong thing or if I or [TS]

  afterwards if I'm on a podcast and I say [TS]

  the wrong thing like are they gonna cut [TS]

  off you know my PR accent of something [TS]

  because until this moment I didn't have [TS]

  PR accident a PR [TS]

  I have nothing to lose and also [TS]

  everything in my job everything in my [TS]

  career my life to this point has not [TS]

  needed PR access and so like it's one [TS]

  thing like if I was like the verge and I [TS]

  got cut off from PR that's a much bigger [TS]

  problem for me to get cut off from PR I [TS]

  don't it doesn't really hurt me much and [TS]

  so I'm not afraid to be honest and to [TS]

  say when things are bad and and and most [TS]

  good journalists you know they try to [TS]

  maintain that same balance even even if [TS]

  their access does depend on that because [TS]

  you know even if their access does or [TS]

  does not their credibility depends on [TS]

  them being balanced and being fair and [TS]

  being willing to criticize when it's [TS]

  when it's warranted and so I mean I'm [TS]

  not saying everybody the PR access is [TS]

  afraid to criticize but that is [TS]

  definitely a trap that I would fear [TS]

  falling into you know if my access [TS]

  increases but I think I'm okay because I [TS]

  I don't really have anything to lose I [TS]

  have to say one of the best things about [TS]

  Apple PR and my experience is because [TS]

  they're so selective in who they talk to [TS]

  they tend to know who they're talking to [TS]

  so they will tailor not just what they [TS]

  say but even who you talk like at [TS]

  various times in my Mac os10 reviews I [TS]

  had interactions with Apple PR and in [TS]

  almost all those cases I didn't have to [TS]

  go through like you know the analogy [TS]

  being like level-1 level-2 level-3 [TS]

  support they would just hook me up [TS]

  directly with the engineer who works on [TS]

  whatever thing that I want to ask god [TS]

  partially it's because I'm asking [TS]

  questions the Apple PR thinks for the [TS]

  most boring questions in the world about [TS]

  this the exact technical details of sub [TS]

  sub system that I'm going to put it in [TS]

  my um team page review that no one's [TS]

  going to read all [TS]

  right so they don't care but the thing [TS]

  is they're efficient they're not gonna [TS]

  make me ask a question of a high-level [TS]

  PR person who's then gonna ask someone [TS]

  below that who's who is I'm gonna ask an [TS]

  engineering manager who's gonna ask an [TS]

  engineer so this giant came with [TS]

  telephone to get back to me they just [TS]

  will connect me directly to the people [TS]

  who know which it sounds like they would [TS]

  never let an engineer talk directly to [TS]

  the press they do they do [TS]

  in if they know who they're talking to [TS]

  and what they're asking about and the [TS]

  parameters are very clear that you're [TS]

  just specifically asking about exactly [TS]

  how Facebook integration works on with [TS]

  contacts and some specific version the [TS]

  operating system and as we as most [TS]

  people know the engineers will just tell [TS]

  you the truth they wrote the thing they [TS]

  design the subsystem it's a boring [TS]

  answer to a boring question that doesn't [TS]

  reveal anything about future anything [TS]

  but very often I had those kind of [TS]

  specific questions and and to Apple's [TS]

  credit they didn't say oh you know we're [TS]

  not talking about that now or we'll get [TS]

  back to you or give me some vague [TS]

  generality that's just reading from a [TS]

  page a webpage you can give they'll [TS]

  bring you right down to the engineer so [TS]

  I would imagine when they're talking to [TS]

  marco they've got people sort of [TS]

  appropriately scaled to the type of [TS]

  questions that he's likely to ask which [TS]

  would be very different than if they're [TS]

  talking to you know Time magazine or [TS]

  whatever it's a different set of people [TS]

  because they because they know who it is [TS]

  it talking to yeah they're I asked you [TS]

  know very technical question it's very [TS]

  specific questions about implementation [TS]

  details of the iMac and things like it's [TS]

  processors and it's PCI lanes and I got [TS]

  answers to all those questions from the [TS]

  people on the call like they knew their [TS]

  stuff anyway like you know my attitude [TS]

  towards them is very much like I love [TS]

  talking to them but I don't need to be [TS]

  talking to them like my job isn't depend [TS]

  on it and so I hope that will help you [TS]

  know basically keep me in check here [TS]

  from getting you know too biased I guess [TS]

  but we still all want review hardware so [TS]

  Apple please send it and the funny thing [TS]

  is like even if I don't get review [TS]

  hardware that doesn't really buy it but [TS]

  I'm gonna buy every single thing review [TS]

  hardware and this sounds like oh you get [TS]

  review hardware like you don't get to [TS]

  keep it like you give it back to them [TS]

  it's just so that you can talk [TS]

  in a more informed way on your media [TS]

  then you know like so you can write [TS]

  about it for your website or you can [TS]

  talk about it on your podcast I continue [TS]

  to maintain that podcast is a form of [TS]

  media though bat-ball seems not yet to [TS]

  entirely agree when it comes to [TS]

  reviewing that's but anyway it's if [TS]

  Apple decides they want to get their [TS]

  message out through a particular person [TS]

  or venue or whatever review hardware is [TS]

  a great way to do that [TS]

  even if they don't get it early even if [TS]

  you just get a day of it just lets that [TS]

  person know what it's like to use that [TS]

  thing and then give it back after a week [TS]

  and that's that's part of the PR effort [TS]

  so I don't think it's out of the realm [TS]

  of possibility that some day that Apple [TS]

  could give a podcast review hardware it [TS]

  just doesn't happen yet so I'm saying [TS]

  we're willing to be in that pilot [TS]

  program call cos Apple maybe maybe for a [TS]

  major desktop Mac release in 2018 mm-hmm [TS]

  just send it right to Casey's house that [TS]

  would be so amazing you can pick it up [TS]

  in the back of the Jeep Wrangler can you [TS]

  imagine you Matt can you imagine if I [TS]

  got on the horn one day and was like hey [TS]

  you know that Mac Pro that's not coming [TS]

  out for a week yeah you know the good [TS]

  news is I have one the bad news is I [TS]

  just couldn't be bothered by unboxing it [TS]

  so I'm not gonna be able to talk about [TS]

  it at all you two would lose it the bad [TS]

  `