The Accidental Tech Podcast

254: Hot Box With Knobs


  down and build it and new let's go all [TS]

  in on something along the lines of [TS]

  functional reactive programming and [TS]

  maybe that's not the actual answer but [TS]

  something that dramatic do you think [TS]

  that it would be something that big if [TS]

  this this hypothetical H I kit or do you [TS]

  think it would be something much closer [TS]

  to a shim and let me start with Marco on [TS]

  this to be all cocoa bindings Oh God I I [TS]

  don't honestly like I'm not hugely into [TS]

  the whole reactive thing like I kind of [TS]

  do my own thing with with that but of [TS]

  course but so I I'm not entirely [TS]

  convinced that that is the inevitable [TS]

  forward sure you know place to go but [TS]

  but whatever the answer whatever the [TS]

  yeah so the if you if just the larger [TS]

  question of like would they [TS]

  fundamentally change like design [TS]

  patterns of of the way to do UI [TS]

  framework exactly it depends on like do [TS]

  they want to also like blow up iOS as [TS]

  well because if the idea of this is to [TS]

  make developing for the Mac more like [TS]

  iOS then no they shouldn't move on in [TS]

  such a major way because that isn't how [TS]

  I OS works but if the goal of this is to [TS]

  be like the next generation unified UI [TS]

  framework for all of their platforms if [TS]

  possibly making it Swift only then sure [TS]

  that would make sense like it would it [TS]

  would make the most sense to design it [TS]

  in a way that takes maximum advantage [TS]

  and fits in best with the design of the [TS]

  Swift language which has which would [TS]

  come with lots of changes that that [TS]

  don't work the same way because like so [TS]

  much of ab kit and UI kit is based on [TS]

  the way objective-c works and is and is [TS]

  designed because you know they were it [TS]

  was it was always language it was [TS]

  designed with that in mind and it was [TS]

  designed with a lot of C idioms and [TS]

  things that work very well with fictive [TS]

  C with Swift there's a lot of weird [TS]

  friction when you when you try to you [TS]

  know when you when you use UI kit and a [TS]

  lot of Apple frameworks from Swift you [TS]

  can tell like this really wasn't [TS]

  designed for this and it's it's not as [TS]

  good as it could be or it doesn't [TS]

  doesn't quite fit in right doesn't feel [TS]

  right or or is not as graceful as it [TS]

  could be so if they're going to move [TS]

  forward and make this like the [TS]

  new swift only thing that is our our [TS]

  modern you know answer it like this is [TS]

  gonna be for the next 15 years framework [TS]

  then yeah change a lot to make it more [TS]

  Swift like I don't not necessarily like [TS]

  functional reactive I don't you know [TS]

  sure sure [TS]

  but just make it more Swift like you [TS]

  know make it ideal for Swift but if [TS]

  they're going for let's make it as easy [TS]

  as possible for existing iOS developers [TS]

  to also make mac apps then I then not [TS]

  necessarily so you have to I think I [TS]

  look at when you talk about UI kit and [TS]

  even app get for that matter any [TS]

  framework like that that lives for a [TS]

  long time evolves and you can see like [TS]

  as you look down through the layers of [TS]

  like how things have changed like as in [TS]

  case point out before before you know [TS]

  closures were a thing everything was you [TS]

  know straight up delegation and then [TS]

  suddenly when closures were a thing even [TS]

  setting aside Swift it was like oh now a [TS]

  bunch of new api's are coming take a [TS]

  call back right and they take a closure [TS]

  as an argument and that becomes the [TS]

  pattern that you start to see you don't [TS]

  see it everywhere you the old api's [TS]

  don't have it but they introduced new [TS]

  api is they do have it and so you know [TS]

  each new year WWC the framework that you [TS]

  new slowly changes and evolves whatever [TS]

  the next framework is the the most [TS]

  conservative answer is take whatever the [TS]

  the current best thinking about you I [TS]

  kid is not like make it like you I kid [TS]

  exactly because there are parts of UI [TS]

  kit that have been updated to use the [TS]

  current best thinking and you know the [TS]

  closure is an example of like and that [TS]

  happens to fit was Swift because if it's [TS]

  native support for that and you don't [TS]

  have to use this stupid block syntax and [TS]

  all the other stuff but make all of the [TS]

  new api's use the current best thinking [TS]

  and I don't think that actually entirely [TS]

  precludes a larger change because if you [TS]

  keep doing that like over time we [TS]

  introduce new API is with new thinking [TS]

  and there's a new language in the mix [TS]

  and it evolves and evolves and evolves [TS]

  eventually you get to deprecated or just [TS]

  never use the really old really weird [TS]

  api's so if your starting point is the [TS]

  current best modern thinking UI kit with [TS]

  maybe some minor tweaks you get a lot of [TS]

  the benefit of people being who are [TS]

  familiar with you I kept being able to [TS]

  use that because people are familiar [TS]

  with uikit presumably you're somewhat [TS]

  up-to-date on and don't say I only know [TS]

  how to use the uikit api's introduced in [TS]

  like iOS 2 and I never learned anything [TS]

  after and I don't know what a closure is [TS]

  and I'm really confused right I don't [TS]

  know anything about all these properties [TS]

  syntax and all those animations stuff [TS]

  let's all tint colors I don't know what [TS]

  that is of course they have to know they [TS]

  have to know the modern ones too so and [TS]

  that's your starting point you can bring [TS]

  those people along now with the with the [TS]

  whole reactor thing it's like that's not [TS]

  something you can gradually add that's [TS]

  kind of a paradigm shift and that is [TS]

  it's a tougher sell but even that you [TS]

  could you could pitch that to you know [TS]

  pretend the Mac doesn't exist and it's [TS]

  just UI kit eventually in the lifetime [TS]

  of you I kid if you're thinking inside [TS]

  Apple is that there's a better way to [TS]

  design you eyes with you know whatever [TS]

  reactive paradigm or whatever some [TS]

  functional thing or something entirely [TS]

  different they could roll that out just [TS]

  in UI kit to say a bunch of new api's [TS]

  are gonna be using this thing and we [TS]

  have a new view system and more you know [TS]

  Mac has had multiple view systems even [TS]

  on Mac OS 10 it has multiple you know [TS]

  head carbon and it had cocoa and they [TS]

  coexisted for a while and one of them [TS]

  faded away it's not impossible to have [TS]

  two paradigms in the same platform and [TS]

  slowly transition to another one so I [TS]

  don't think anything Apple does [TS]

  precludes switching to something better [TS]

  but I think the main reason they won't [TS]

  is there are two reasons one I'm not I [TS]

  don't think Apple is convinced that [TS]

  there is a better power this case you [TS]

  may be convinced by convinced it like [TS]

  there is a better paradigm that is [TS]

  better enough to take the hit for it and [TS]

  be like they can they can defer that [TS]

  they could say use the current best [TS]

  thinking and UI kit plus whatever the [TS]

  current best thing that we don't know [TS]

  about is they're doing inside Apple [TS]

  right because there's always something [TS]

  every year right and make that the [TS]

  starting point of view new framework and [TS]

  then go from there and I don't wrap this [TS]

  office running along the one one final [TS]

  thing I think is worth voicing [TS]

  especially from the concerns of Mac [TS]

  users I mentioned photos apps and and [TS]

  how they feel kind of weird that's [TS]

  another way that this can all go wrong [TS]

  if they no matter what solution they use [TS]

  if it lets experience iOS developers [TS]

  target the Mac but the applications they [TS]

  create are all like photos essentially [TS]

  like that they feel weird and non Mac [TS]

  like and are unsatisfying [TS]

  I don't think that will be a very big [TS]

  success because as few Mac users as [TS]

  there mate as there maybe and even Mac [TS]

  users who have no idea what it means to [TS]

  be quote-unquote Mac type Mac like you [TS]

  know people who have no idea what [TS]

  electron is or no idea what makes Lac [TS]

  weird they feel they feel the the [TS]

  friction and the weirdness even if they [TS]

  can't identify it even with something [TS]

  like chrome versus Safari I think that's [TS]

  a real thing that people can feel and I [TS]

  and I think the Mac enthusiasts are [TS]

  actually an important subset of the Mac [TS]

  market at a proportion of their of their [TS]

  the money that they give or whatever [TS]

  rights the whole reason the Mac Pro [TS]

  exists or will exist eventually and I [TS]

  think that is a really it's gonna be one [TS]

  of the hardest things to avoid yes let [TS]

  people retarget their skills to the Mac [TS]

  but how how are you gonna get them to [TS]

  make applications that are satisfying [TS]

  Mac applications that's a really tall [TS]

  order both because iOS users don't know [TS]

  how to make a satisfying Mac application [TS]

  because they never have before [TS]

  and because a lot of things you can do [TS]

  to make it easier for them leave them [TS]

  down the path to an application that is [TS]

  like an iOS application that you can use [TS]

  a mouse cursor with and that's not good [TS]

  that's no good boss [TS]

  well but I mean I would argue it's [TS]

  better than not having these apps is it [TS]

  though like I was saying I don't know if [TS]

  it's better than not having the apps it [TS]

  like is it better than just letting the [TS]

  Mac platform die I would rather have a [TS]

  good native 27 inch iPad pro application [TS]

  than the bad iOS port to a 27 inch iMac [TS]

  yet I mean like just sure well but I you [TS]

  know keep in mind like whatever Mac apps [TS]

  are in practice is what ends up being [TS]

  you know the good Mac apps like it ends [TS]

  up being the standard like I really [TS]

  don't think we have a choice here I [TS]

  think something like this has to happen [TS]

  to keep the Mac alive and so if what if [TS]

  what ends up being most Mac have people [TS]

  use if those are more iOS II that will [TS]

  just become what it feels like to be a [TS]

  real to be a standard Mac app and that's [TS]

  not what it means to be Mac life but I'm [TS]

  just talking about like just straight-up [TS]

  performance like that they feel laggy [TS]

  and slow and not not powerful like they [TS]

  don't have the features one part is a [TS]

  feature set in a second is [TS]

  they're that they're slow and weird and [TS]

  is it because they're slow and weird [TS]

  because the shim layer and they are the [TS]

  missing features that we expect from a [TS]

  cap because there are an iOS port and [TS]

  those features don't fit or don't make [TS]

  sense on iOS that's that's what I'm [TS]

  talking about like and and you're [TS]

  totally right to be super concerned [TS]

  about that by using photos app as the [TS]

  example of a cross-platform framework [TS]

  but the reason why photos app on the Mac [TS]

  is slow and weird and doesn't feel right [TS]

  and it lacks so many features and drives [TS]

  you nuts [TS]

  it's because it is a terribly designed [TS]

  app on so many levels and horribly [TS]

  neglected all the time so it starts out [TS]

  with a bad design they never change it [TS]

  they never make it better in your your [TS]

  explanation during our famous episode [TS]

  number 223 throw the fork away was so [TS]

  great so perfect the Photos app is a [TS]

  terrible example of how to do [TS]

  cross-platform frameworks it happens to [TS]

  be built on a cross-platform framework [TS]

  but it is a terrible design and that has [TS]

  nothing to do with the framework it has [TS]

  everything to do with the actual UI [TS]

  design the flow of the app the things [TS]

  like I do think it has to do with the [TS]

  framework and that I know the flow in [TS]

  the UI design is inherited in large part [TS]

  from how photos works in iOS and then [TS]

  they just added a couple little sidebars [TS]

  here and there like it feels like an iOS [TS]

  application in design wise no definitely [TS]

  not [TS]

  it is it is entirely because that is a [TS]

  very badly designed app that was it's [TS]

  designed by people who don't use it the [TS]

  way anybody else uses it if at all and [TS]

  it is designed to look good in demos not [TS]

  to actually be used by human beings that [TS]

  is not a problem with the framework [TS]

  that's the problem with the just the [TS]

  design of it it is slow and cumbersome [TS]

  not because it copies iOS stuff but [TS]

  because it has too many modes and too [TS]

  many slow animations and it lacks [TS]

  convenient keyboard shortcuts and like [TS]

  but like it has those modes because [TS]

  photos on iOS has to have the most [TS]

  because you don't have over the room on [TS]

  the screen for all that stuff so like [TS]

  think about when you go to crop I'm [TS]

  photos you got a little crop icon and [TS]

  that or you go to like color or light [TS]

  then you got all this something using [TS]

  you eventually dig your way down to the [TS]

  feature you want and it's a lot of taps [TS]

  and why is it a lot of taps because [TS]

  you're on a phone you don't have room to [TS]

  have that stuff visible all the time but [TS]

  you take that UI paradigm and you bring [TS]

  it to the Mac and it's still a lot of [TS]

  tap seeing like why you making this a [TS]

  lot of apps like well [TS]

  sort of how the codebase works and we [TS]

  kind of added a sidebar here and there [TS]

  but we didn't want to change too much [TS]

  like isn't that the whole thing we don't [TS]

  to change too much and we get a Mac [TS]

  application out of it and it's like you [TS]

  should have changed more that isn't the [TS]

  whole thing like first of all the fact [TS]

  that they use something called like UX [TS]

  collectionview [TS]

  doesn't make the design bad the fact [TS]

  that their views are using UX color [TS]

  instead of NS color and UI color that [TS]

  doesn't like the that's what we're [TS]

  asking for here is like give us like [TS]

  stock widgets and stuff that we can use [TS]

  them of the place but but the actual [TS]

  interface layout and the choices they [TS]

  made with all these different modes and [TS]

  everything that's just a bad design off [TS]

  for the Mac period and that has nothing [TS]

  to do with the framework that is [TS]

  entirely to do with laziness and bad [TS]

  design but nobody doesn't have to do [TS]

  with the framework it has to do it has [TS]

  to do with the fact that the code base [TS]

  came from an iOS app you started with an [TS]

  iOS app and you're like I would like [TS]

  this app on the Mac so that's you start [TS]

  with that code base and that code base [TS]

  works the way it works on the phone and [TS]

  so you don't want it completely like [TS]

  you're you're motivated not to change [TS]

  too much about it right so it's yeah [TS]

  it's not the framework it's not the fact [TS]

  to use if you had written it from [TS]

  scratch with the same framework as a Mac [TS]

  app you would be fine but I my fear of [TS]

  getting at here is that people have iOS [TS]

  applications that they want to [TS]

  essentially port to the Mac and they're [TS]

  not starting from scratch and figuring [TS]

  out how to make a good mac app they're [TS]

  starting from their iOS app and mutating [TS]

  it until they feel like it's more or [TS]

  less a madcap and so the Photos app [TS]

  feels like the iOS Photos app mutated [TS]

  just enough to masquerade as a Mac [TS]

  application and you're totally right [TS]

  that's not the fault of the framework [TS]

  it's not the fault of you even you [TS]

  execute or anything like that it is the [TS]

  fault of the fact that they that it is [TS]

  essentially a port and that you start [TS]

  with one code base and you change it and [TS]

  you know you don't start over from [TS]

  scratch right and way too long here but [TS]

  but one of the things that Craig [TS]

  Hockenberry was pointing out about like [TS]

  Twitter if ik where icon factory wrote [TS]

  their own framework to basically be [TS]

  UIKit on the Mac what was called [TS]

  chameleon or something yep right so they [TS]

  have experience doing that hey let's [TS]

  write a framework on the Mac but the API [TS]

  has all look like UI kit they did that [TS]

  and they also did let's make a mac [TS]

  version of an iOS application and we'll [TS]

  do it by cleanly and slightly painfully [TS]

  because you know programmers aren't [TS]

  perfect separating the internals from [TS]

  the X [TS]

  which all programmers are supposed to be [TS]

  doing but until you actually try to [TS]

  separate them with a big scissors you [TS]

  realize how much your crap has leaked [TS]

  into each other like it's life right [TS]

  and according to Craig the second [TS]

  approach for them anyway work better for [TS]

  Twitter if ik where what they reused [TS]

  across the iOS and the mac app is all [TS]

  the faceless stuff but the UI for the [TS]

  mac app is written totally from scratch [TS]

  the only part that shared is the inside [TS]

  now they wrote it from I don't even know [TS]

  what they used they could have written [TS]

  it from scratch using you know the [TS]

  chameleon thing they could have written [TS]

  their scratch using app kit they could [TS]

  have written scratch using a [TS]

  hypothetical H eye kit but the point is [TS]

  they wrote it from scratch they didn't [TS]

  take the interface from the phone poured [TS]

  it and start tweaking it but that that I [TS]

  think will be a temptation it's you know [TS]

  sort of the equivalent of shovel where [TS]

  that will be a temptation if Apple does [TS]

  a good job making that easy and in fact [TS]

  how about will done with that look I [TS]

  went from your iPhone application and [TS]

  then I just move two things around and [TS]

  add a sidebar and set up a few menu [TS]

  items voila [TS]

  Mac app and I'm gonna say no not a not a [TS]

  Mac out thanks to our sponsors this week [TS]

  Casper Squarespace and hellofresh we'll [TS]

  see you next week now the show is over [TS]

  they didn't even mean to begin [TS]

  it was accidental oh it was accidental [TS]

  Johnny research Marco and Casey wouldn't [TS]

  let him cuz it was accidentally was [TS]

  accidental and you can find the show [TS]

  notes at a CAS URL is s so that's Casey [TS]

  less and a are Co a RM ante Marco Arment [TS]

  SI r AC USA Syracuse [TS]

  good thing so much stuff happened in the [TS]

  seven days ago yeah exactly so Marco you [TS]

  said you had watched the first two [TS]

  episodes of the Grand Tour [TS]

  I have yeah you know what it's pretty [TS]

  good I feel like the in studio segments [TS]

  are slightly less garbagey than they [TS]

  were last season oh yeah to clarify I [TS]

  skip the house pretty bad not like I [TS]

  don't skip like the little bumpers to [TS]

  their second but like when they like sit [TS]

  down with a celebrity or something I [TS]

  skip that but I always did that with the [TS]

  with the BBC show also yeah the the BBC [TS]

  show the in studio segments were pretty [TS]

  decent if not good but man the Grand [TS]

  Tour in the studio is bad outside of the [TS]

  studio I think the films were there [TS]

  actually out in the world doing things I [TS]

  think those are 80 to 90 percent of what [TS]

  they were for Top Gear and I'm trying [TS]

  very hard not to spoil anything directly [TS]

  for John but my goodness of studio stuff [TS]

  is just nothing I feel like all I'm [TS]

  doing is cringing the entire time [TS]

  they're in the studio oh absolutely no [TS]

  question like the studio stuff is still [TS]

  is as cringe-worthy as it was in season [TS]

  one but season 2 episodes 1 & 2 if you [TS]

  skip the studio Long's parts and you [TS]

  just pay attention to the rest of it you [TS]

  know film segments I'd say it's it's [TS]

  very good very fun and you know the last [TS]

  few seasons of Top Gear were that they [TS]

  were on you know they were there was [TS]

  like a bit of a decline in those two and [TS]

  I would say the the current season of [TS]

  whatever this is Grand Tour is on on par [TS]

  with or better than the last few seasons [TS]

  the top here they did I think that's [TS]

  fair you know one of the Instituto [TS]

  segments that I actually kind of liked [TS]

  and I think is the strength that they [TS]

  should be leaning on in Grand Tour but [TS]

  in season 1 apparently they did not I [TS]

  always liked the the new segments [TS]

  because I guess because it's the most [TS]

  like a pod yeah like they would they [TS]

  would have a little TV screen up there [TS]

  to show an image and they'd be like [TS]

  there's quick hits on the news oh you [TS]

  know Volkswagens coming out with a new [TS]

  car what do you think of this and they [TS]

  all just have something snarky to say [TS]

  about it in much the same way we do on a [TS]

  podcast what do you think of Bonita [TS]

  they talk about right and there's no [TS]

  celebrity involved and you can't say [TS]

  they're not trying to be funny because [TS]

  they are they're trying to be funny and [TS]

  very often the snarky lines were written [TS]

  ahead of time clearly right like it [TS]

  wasn't all spontaneous or whatever but [TS]

  that lets them be them in a way in the [TS]

  same way that they would out of the [TS]

  studio just sort of joking around with [TS]

  each other about a topic that they all [TS]

  have strong feelings about you think all [TS]

  Porsche 911s look the same you are into [TS]

  trucks you are like whatever like their [TS]

  personalities and their enthusiasm for [TS]

  cars which you know is my always big [TS]

  thing with with top gear comes through [TS]

  in those segments and their studio [TS]

  segments and they're fine and even some [TS]

  of the celebrity ones depending on the [TS]

  celebrity passable but anything where [TS]

  it's like we're not going to talk about [TS]

  car news we're not gonna talk about cars [TS]

  we're not gonna talk to a celebrity [TS]

  we're gonna do like a funny skit with [TS]

  each other did not work in the green [TS]

  like just just like because because like [TS]

  what's left then then it's just like a [TS]

  bunch of people who are like are they [TS]

  trying to be Saturday Night Live very [TS]

  often they'd be trying to make a joke [TS]

  they'd be like huh nah isn't that funny [TS]

  and they'd be like making fun of like [TS]

  you know children with cancer to be like [TS]

  no it's not it's not funny it's like but [TS]

  it was it was funny when I was a boy in [TS]

  1942 it was like just guys like you [TS]

  can't talk to somebody before you do [TS]

  these segments like it's not or whatever [TS]

  the one but they were making fun of gay [TS]

  people are hurting ice cream or [TS]

  something ice like just talk to one [TS]

  person before you plan a 15-minute [TS]

  segment that you think is gonna be [TS]

  hilarious but yeah it's it's not and [TS]

  it's no good and anyway yeah there's a [TS]

  lot more of that it's definitely like [TS]

  older dudes who think that some of this [TS]

  stuff is funny and it's just not funny [TS]

  anymore and the other thing unless on [TS]

  the second episode they official maybe [TS]

  they talked about in the first but in [TS]

  the second episode was the first time [TS]

  they really did a hot lap if I recall [TS]

  correctly and they have ditched the [TS]

  American and they said something like [TS]

  yeah well you know it didn't really work [TS]

  out and nobody liked it [TS]

  and so there was a at least a modicum of [TS]

  like self-awareness there but they bring [TS]

  on a woman some woman and they say she's [TS]

  a really great driver and the reason I [TS]

  haven't named this woman is because they [TS]

  didn't name her like did you did you [TS]

  watch this Marco did you notice that as [TS]

  well yeah [TS]

  like the new Stig kind of but right that [TS]

  was I I assume that was part of some [TS]

  kind of bit that's gonna play out over [TS]

  time but I thought that was weird too it [TS]

  just seemed like I don't know if [TS]

  inappropriate is the right word but just [TS]

  not funny it seemed like you know [TS]

  50-plus year old guys trying to be funny [TS]

  in a way that in the year almost 2018 [TS]

  really isn't funny anymore [TS]

  and I don't think this is me being like [TS]

  a stick-in-the-mud I don't think this is [TS]

  me being a social justice warrior it's [TS]

  just it's I'm trying to be better about [TS]

  being aware of these sorts of things and [TS]

  and so now that I am more aware of these [TS]

  sorts of things when they don't name [TS]

  this woman driver like they praised her [TS]

  but they don't name her it's just like [TS]

  come on guy is really this is really a [TS]

  thing and just like you said John like [TS]

  nobody told you this was not cool nobody [TS]

  not a one not a single person said that [TS]

  this was not cool and so i-i've never [TS]

  fast forwarded on a and on an initial [TS]

  viewing I've never fast forwarded any of [TS]

  the top gear of the Grand Tour but well [TS]

  you're missing out I am well that's the [TS]

  thing I was about to say I am paying [TS]

  less and less and less attention to the [TS]

  in-studio segments that being said the [TS]

  the film's I thought were really good [TS]

  particularly this last one and again I'm [TS]

  trying not to spoil it but it involves [TS]

  Marco and John's either current or old [TS]

  stomping grounds that one I thought was [TS]

  really good and enjoyable so thus to [TS]

  films are great but Godley the studio [TS]

  stuff I'm running out of patience for it [TS]

  yeah there is no question in my mind [TS]

  that if the show was just the films and [TS]

  each episode was like you know I guess I [TS]

  guess be like 20 minutes long or 25 [TS]

  minutes long and instead of like an hour [TS]

  if it was just that it would be a better [TS]

  show I mean I'm looking forward to the [TS]

  to the rest of the episodes from the [TS]

  season but I might do the unthinkable in [TS]

  Paula Marco and just skip the in studio [TS]

  segments because hoo boy I give you [TS]

  permission it is a much more enjoyable [TS]

  show if you do that [TS]

  yeah I swear look some titles here [TS]

  we had some good ones this week as I get [TS]

  older I guess worse yeah that's pretty [TS]

  good [TS]

  I like hotbox with knobs hot box with [TS]

  Dobson's little boxes does the USB pre [TS]

  to get hot no my description is not I've [TS]

  never had one of those boxes I just [TS]

  assumed they got hot but no hot box hot [TS]

  box you guys don't know that movie do [TS]

  you nope Casey did your boy watch it [TS]

  Marko might like it yeah I mean my vote [TS]

  my final vote is either for older worse [TS]

  or hot box of knobs mm-hmm I think I'm [TS]

  both hot box with knobs definitely is as [TS]

  a musical ring to it and seems like an [TS]

  ATP title but now now that I learned the [TS]

  boxes don't get hot I like it was I mean [TS]

  some of them do like the ones too [TS]

  speaking if you want stuff get hot oh my [TS]

  god yes you you do have some hot boxes [TS]

  with knobs all right yeah cuz it's like [TS]

  a you know it's a Class A B amp the [TS]

  smaller ones like I had one that was a [TS]

  Class A my god like even just a [TS]

  headphone amp it's Class A gets [TS]

  ridiculously hot yeah I don't that [TS]

  patate box with knobs over the top [TS]

  fantastic mr. Fox watch it watch it with [TS]

  the kids it's a good kid movie even [TS]

  Declan might like it heard of this and [TS]

  then you'll see where I am saying to [TS]

  recommend that because in the hot box [TS]

  features in the movie isn't that a [TS]

  euphemism for like farting in bed yes [TS]

  I'm glad you caught up the car that as [TS]

  well oh that's not just hotbox it's also [TS]

  like when you like smoke pot in the car [TS]

  with the windows up what do you call it [TS]

  Dutch oven come on chat room [TS]

  that's no you're right you're right you [TS]

  know we don't need to go to the chat [TS]

  room for fart confirmation Casey is [TS]

  there with the oh when it comes to farts [TS]

  and I know what I'm talking about - [TS]

  farts ever stop being funny I don't [TS]

  think so it was like humor is rooted in [TS]

  just like what makes people like [TS]

  uncomfortable like it like in a certain [TS]

  way and like farts are you're so against [TS]

  the facade that we are not animals we [TS]

  are we are civilized people and then [TS]

  like this bad smell and gas comes out of [TS]

  our butts like that's that's going to be [TS]

  funny like fuck it and and like it's so [TS]

  taboo [TS]

  and think and it makes the whole room [TS]

  smell bad for like ten minutes and so [TS]

  it's like that's like that's going to be [TS]

  if that's always gonna be funny across [TS]

  all cultures across all times because we [TS]

  try so hard to pretend like we're not [TS]

  animals with butts and poop and stuff [TS]

  and then this reminds us anyway that's [TS]

  my theory on farts good they can think [TS]

  we're still alive yeah good you to make [TS]

  an app about that I hear they're all the [TS]

  rage yeah right [TS]

  rage yeah right [TS]

  um but yeah there's no there's no [TS]

  perfect solution so I you know even if [TS]

  even if they change it to do that and I [TS]

  heard some good suggestions on Twitter I [TS]

  forget who's just maybe was Marco maybe [TS]

  was someone else like change the color [TS]

  of the battery meter to like purple or I [TS]

  don't know they already use red and [TS]

  green and yellow but some other colors [TS]

  show like it's not just that your [TS]

  battery is like lower in the middle but [TS]

  we found out that your battery is [TS]

  underperforming and to what case you [TS]

  said at the beginning of this your [TS]

  battery doesn't give up it's just it [TS]

  just is not capable of delivering either [TS]

  the volts of the amps that are required [TS]

  by the CPU and the CPU has met has [TS]

  things that cause it you know or not the [TS]

  CPB like they're parts of the [TS]

  electronics a look if my voltage or [TS]

  current or both drop below some [TS]

  threshold game over right and that's [TS]

  what's happening so the battery is there [TS]

  dutifully pumping out as much energy [TS]

  that can on the CPU is like now sorry [TS]

  it's game over [TS]

  can't do it everything goes black um not [TS]

  that really matters the details but [TS]

  anyway that's that's that's what's [TS]

  happening and you know the the if you [TS]

  want to get on Apple for doing a thing [TS]

  that you know what you know five why [TS]

  this down to like what is the root cause [TS]

  here you could get to the batteries not [TS]

  easily replaceable but you know it's not [TS]

  that expensive to replace it you could [TS]

  get to the size of the battery you could [TS]

  get to how long if you use your phone [TS]

  like a regular person how long does your [TS]

  battery last like the planned [TS]

  obsolescence thing is I feel like [TS]

  different than the the perception that [TS]

  Apple is doing you know evil thing to [TS]

  make you buy a new phone because planned [TS]

  obsolescence you could say they make a [TS]

  sealed phone with a battery that will be [TS]

  crappy after two years and they they [TS]

  know that all those numbers they know [TS]

  how long it will last they know that [TS]

  it's sealed so on and so forth [TS]

  isn't that planned obsolescence because [TS]

  this phone is released to you and they [TS]

  know the plan is that if you use this [TS]

  like a regular phone it will be a much [TS]

  worse phone in two years and that's [TS]

  essentially their plan they couldn't [TS]

  make a phone that becomes a much worse [TS]

  phone in a week they could make a plan a [TS]

  phone that becomes much worse one in [TS]

  five years where have they chosen to [TS]

  draw that line is wherever they don't [TS]

  know if it's two years we're just making [TS]

  a number but that is a design choice and [TS]

  this brings me to a thing that has been [TS]

  buried in our show notes for a while [TS]

  that I will now hoist up because it is [TS]

  relevant this is a YouTube video from [TS]

  cut one of the things I hated most about [TS]

  YouTube is how hard [TS]

  to find the stupid date from September [TS]

  1st 2017 this is a another typical [TS]

  sensationally titled thing like all the [TS]

  articles today about you know new [TS]

  information reveals that Apple is just [TS]

  as deceptive as your crazy uncle always [TS]

  said no that's not what it confirms at [TS]

  all anybody is Apple ruining your max [TS]

  performance question mark isn't that [TS]

  definitely great a quick baby title [TS]

  that's like every Doug DeNiro [TS]

  title ever his a yeah yes his his are [TS]

  boring because there are two same the [TS]

  number one the number one pinned a [TS]

  comment on this is Apple ruining your [TS]

  max performance spoiler alert yes [TS]

  this article is about thermal throttling [TS]

  on Macs which actually Marco talked [TS]

  about a little bit although he surmised [TS]

  it for Thermo based like when you [TS]

  plugged in your external monitor at the [TS]

  beach house like the how it slowed down [TS]

  the clocks on your your MacBook Pro am I [TS]

  remembering there right yeah this is [TS]

  this is a pretty a pretty significant [TS]

  limitation of the 2017 MacBook Pro [TS]

  actually and this is not just the this [TS]

  house was the NYMEX [TS]

  right so this is another case where [TS]

  again the sensational headline would [TS]

  make you think that Apple is inserting [TS]

  code that mean this isn't about making [TS]

  you buy a new Mac but apples and certain [TS]

  komen says your computer could be faster [TS]

  but we're going to do something in [TS]

  software to make it not faster and [TS]

  withhold the performance from you [TS]

  because we're evil Apple and we do this [TS]

  for insert reason that doesn't make any [TS]

  sense because obviously as Gruber points [TS]

  out and as many people point out like [TS]

  people think it's an apples interest to [TS]

  make you buy I won't buy a new phone but [TS]

  it is not an apples interest to make you [TS]

  buy a new phone by sabotaging your [TS]

  current iPhone because that will just [TS]

  make you feel bad about iPhones it'll [TS]

  make you want to buy a different phone [TS]

  but anyway setting that aside logic [TS]

  doesn't factor in like again perception [TS]

  doesn't matter that's not the logic it's [TS]

  not enter into it the the reason so many [TS]

  Mac's thermal throttling if you watch [TS]

  this video this is about like gaming [TS]

  performance on an iMac or actually a [TS]

  MacBook as well maybe it's both I forget [TS]

  anyway he puts it in like a freezer and [TS]

  runs the benchmark and having out of the [TS]

  freezer too so you know all these sort [TS]

  of temperature things look I'm I'm not [TS]

  I'm not making this up look performance [TS]

  is here but then as things we're not [TS]

  before and it goes down you can see this [TS]

  stair step pattern and the graphs of [TS]

  what your frame rate is and then you put [TS]

  it in the freezer and you don't see that [TS]

  like it's pretty clear that [TS]

  things and inside this computer run at [TS]

  Marlys full speed until it gets kind of [TS]

  hot and sweaty in there and the [TS]

  mechanisms inside the computer that are [TS]

  there to protect the silicon from you [TS]

  know melting itself say whoa whoa whoa [TS]

  let's start slowing things down and it [TS]

  cranks down the clock speed and this [TS]

  doesn't have to do with battery life [TS]

  this has to do with like performance and [TS]

  I would say that you know again Apple [TS]

  it's not doing a malicious thing to make [TS]

  your computer bad because they are evil [TS]

  you know rubbing their hands together [TS]

  villains twirling their moustaches but [TS]

  they did design a computer they did [TS]

  design a computer in which if you play a [TS]

  game on it and you know in a certain [TS]

  reasonable ambient temperature for human [TS]

  kind of room eventually gets so hot that [TS]

  the mechanisms that protect the silicon [TS]

  will kick in and it will start [TS]

  throttling down an Apple design that [TS]

  computer right now is it a manufacturing [TS]

  defect did they put it together wrong is [TS]

  the thermal paste not working is the [TS]

  heat pipe not working right or are they [TS]

  all like that or are they all like that [TS]

  after a certain number of years and then [TS]

  the beginning they're not like that [TS]

  whatever the thing is this is a product [TS]

  that Apple made and you are not getting [TS]

  all the performance you would hope to [TS]

  get out of it that you could get out of [TS]

  it if it had better cooling and same [TS]

  thing with the plugging the external [TS]

  monitor whether that is a sort of [TS]

  programmatic when the external Morrow's [TS]

  plugged in just throttle down [TS]

  immediately because we know there's [TS]

  gonna be thermal issues or whether it [TS]

  just so happens that as soon as you plug [TS]

  in the external monitors it immediately [TS]

  trips the thermal thing and it drops it [TS]

  down either way apples ability to [TS]

  extract heat away from the heat [TS]

  sensitive components is inadequate to [TS]

  allow those components to run at their [TS]

  top rated speed all the time and that is [TS]

  a design choice by Apple or a design [TS]

  flaw from Apple or ever you want to [TS]

  phrase it in no case is it malicious but [TS]

  it is a real fact of the products and [TS]

  you know another reason we're all well [TS]

  I'm waiting for a Mac Pro is like you [TS]

  you know it's a compromise that you may [TS]

  say well that compromise allows it to be [TS]

  thinner and lighter especially with [TS]

  laptop with an iMac it's harder to [TS]

  justify saying yeah yeah it is thin back [TS]

  there but does it really need to be but [TS]

  we want to be sleek and elegant whatever [TS]

  these these are real you know and and [TS]

  say this this is like the phone with [TS]

  like oh they chose to put a battery in [TS]

  there that maybe if it was a bigger [TS]

  battery you'd have more Headroom and you [TS]

  wouldn't have [TS]

  to charge it full as much and you could [TS]

  you know have have more buffer on either [TS]

  side of it sort of use the middle part [TS]

  of the battery like Marco's Tesla does [TS]

  or they could buy a batteries from a [TS]

  different manufacturer or they could [TS]

  even like there are things you can do to [TS]

  design the phone to try to avoid this [TS]

  situation and that I think is a [TS]

  legitimate place of potential difference [TS]

  with Apple and arguably they have made [TS]

  different moves there because this is [TS]

  about a sixth generation with the shut [TS]

  down stuff the seven had a bigger better [TS]

  battery than the six right and the ten [TS]

  seems to have a bigger better battery [TS]

  still right so it seems like they are [TS]

  making adjustments and learning from [TS]

  where they came from but that I feel [TS]

  like is you know the communications [TS]

  stuff and everything it's I feel for [TS]

  Apple but at the same time by being [TS]

  secretive and crossing their fingers [TS]

  that people wouldn't notice that's on [TS]

  them and they you know they get all to [TS]

  be a bad PR I do feel bad that the [TS]

  perception will not match up with [TS]

  reality even more so now because of this [TS]

  but I also think that the design choices [TS]

  that Apple has made that cause [TS]

  performance degradation like their [TS]

  compromises I'm not sure they have [TS]

  struck the right balance it really [TS]

  depends on who you are obviously tech [TS]

  nerds they're gonna say that of course [TS]

  you've struck the wrong balance because [TS]

  I'll give up you know half a pound to [TS]

  get an on throttled GPU other people [TS]

  might want the half a pound because they [TS]

  don't care about throttling and all they [TS]

  do is use Microsoft Word all day but [TS]

  from my perspective as a tech nerd it [TS]

  bothered me to get a product that has to [TS]

  be sort of you know baby they're using a [TS]

  freezer to get the to get sort of the [TS]

  rated performance out of it kind of not [TS]

  to crash on Marko's Tesla but kind of [TS]

  like the Tesla's where a lot of people [TS]

  wrote in when we talked about Tesla's [TS]

  and road tests and I felt like it wasn't [TS]

  getting its due and how you know it's [TS]

  such a great performance car but it's [TS]

  never put up against the real ones and a [TS]

  lot of people pointed out and I should [TS]

  recall this from reading a lighting [TS]

  laughs a lot of that is not just because [TS]

  it's not grated handling because it's [TS]

  really heavy but also because you drive [TS]

  a Tesla hard around a racetrack and [TS]

  eventually test it was like and yeah not [TS]

  so much how about you how about you lay [TS]

  off a little bit and it goes into not [TS]

  limp mode but it goes into please stop [TS]

  hurting me mode because my battery's [TS]

  getting [TS]

  really hot and I really don't like doing [TS]

  you know hot laps as they're called like [TS]

  literally hot laps I'm not up for this [TS]

  and so it's hard to get a bunch of you [TS]

  know good lap times because you do one [TS]

  or two fast laps and the Tesla's says no [TS]

  more like you know like thermal [TS]

  throttling on a Mac and like the battery [TS]

  they can't give enough juice it says [TS]

  well can we just wait for the battery to [TS]

  cool down a little bit maybe and that's [TS]

  not something you're looking for in in [TS]

  the performance car so fast in a [TS]

  straight line [TS]

  not so fast around curves and you drive [TS]

  it fast for a long time and it really [TS]

  really doesn't like that and says with [TS]

  it's electronics you will not be doing [TS]

  that anymore for a while I'm sorry [TS]

  physics you know my bad so anyway to [TS]

  wrap this up somehow I've managed to [TS]

  turn this story about Apple software [TS]

  protecting its hardware into a story [TS]

  about how I really wanted the Mac Pro to [TS]

  not be thermal throttled and Apple [TS]

  should make us computers faster-- course [TS]

  right [TS]

  but but yeah like I said um if you take [TS]

  one thing away from this take away the [TS]

  sad the sad realization the the the idea [TS]

  the knowledge that none of this [TS]

  information actually confirms the things [TS]

  people used to think about Apple but [TS]

  everyone will believe it does and that's [TS]

  a bummer for Apple and they're partially [TS]

  to bring with bad PR handling but you [TS]

  should continue not to believe that [TS]

  Apple purposely slows down computers [TS]

  because a that would be a dumb thing to [TS]

  do and B they don't do it to make you [TS]

  buy a new phone also please never put [TS]

  your computing devices in the freezer [TS]

  condensation exists this is a problem [TS]

  put them in mineral oil come on yeah you [TS]

  might even know about this because you [TS]

  were you're always a Mac person case you [TS]

  might remember do you ever back back [TS]

  then like one of the early hey days of [TS]

  overclocking and like the very late 90s [TS]

  early 2000s overclocked yo started using [TS]

  I don't know Hayes Browns Peltier [TS]

  Peltier plates know about this so so one [TS]

  of the ways that you know water cooling [TS]

  was not extreme enough if you wanted to [TS]

  push like a seller on up to two [TS]

  gigahertz or whatever so people started [TS]

  using these Peltier devices which are [TS]

  these these like [TS]

  thermoelectric things that they're like [TS]

  they're like they're solid-state no [TS]

  moving parts and you apply a ton of [TS]

  power to them and one side gets super [TS]

  cold and one side gets super hot [TS]

  and I think this I think integrals use [TS]

  these I'm not sure they're anyway [TS]

  however you Browns those things [TS]

  overclockers decided that this this was [TS]

  a good way to to get even colder cooling [TS]

  of their of their CPUs they could push [TS]

  them even further and it's especially [TS]

  egregious because all the power that it [TS]

  draws which is a lot to perform this [TS]

  cooling the hot side gets all the heat [TS]

  of the processor plus that wattage that [TS]

  it's using so like the cold side gets a [TS]

  little cold the hot side gets really hot [TS]

  and it was the mcdlt of cooling solution [TS]

  the hot side hot cold side cold [TS]

  I missed the mcdlt [TS]

  yeah anyway and so one of the problems [TS]

  one of the reasons one of the many [TS]

  reasons why people I don't think really [TS]

  used those for more than about six [TS]

  months is because once you introduce the [TS]

  the possibility for a for something in [TS]

  your computer case to get below ambient [TS]

  temperature you start having problems [TS]

  with condensation and possibly frost and [TS]

  this is a really big problem instead of [TS]

  a computer collect Ronix do not like [TS]

  water like if you like and of course [TS]

  they decided okay now we can back off [TS]

  frost and condensation and now we can [TS]

  just go to pumping water through our [TS]

  case that's much better well I mean like [TS]

  you said it's of all about ambient [TS]

  temperature because if you start making [TS]

  the surrounding air cooler and it can no [TS]

  longer hold the water that is that it [TS]

  condenses out of the air that's a [TS]

  problem but if everything is at air [TS]

  temperature or higher you're still it's [TS]

  still way lower than the temperature of [TS]

  the little hot piece of silicon in there [TS]

  so you're fine with condensation you [TS]

  just gotta make sure you have no leaks [TS]

  so is that it on the deliberately [TS]

  planned obsolescence that may or may not [TS]

  really be a thing it's not you're doing [TS]

  it again not may or may not really be a [TS]

  thing he's not really hitting I'm lady [TS]

  this is the problem like no matter how [TS]

  much people talk about but like yeah but [TS]

  this does kind of confirm what everyone [TS]

  said doesn't it no no it doesn't because [TS]

  what they were saying they were saying [TS]

  was not that they're slowing down the [TS]

  computer but for a reason and this I [TS]

  know this is the nuance and I totally [TS]

  agree that no one is gonna get this but [TS]

  the ADP listeners well no an hour [TS]

  I would caution you ATP listeners do not [TS]

  attempt to explain this to other people [TS]

  like Christmas dinner because it will [TS]

  not go over well just nod your head and [TS]

  say you were right all right don't even [TS]

  confirm that they're right just go have [TS]

  a different conversation [TS]

  no guess yeah guess what you're not [TS]

  gonna be the one bringing it up like all [TS]

  of our listeners who are known probably [TS]

  as like the computer people and their [TS]

  family all their other relatives are [TS]

  gonna ask them about it you won't have [TS]

  to bring it up people will ask you yeah [TS]

  then you can tell them the truth I [TS]

  suppose but like it's a nuance that [TS]

  people don't care about because people [TS]

  really really want to be right about [TS]

  that conspiracy and they can get a [TS]

  psychology of this like why you know [TS]

  everyone wants to seem like they are [TS]

  savvy like that the world's not pulling [TS]

  one over me that this is how they get [TS]

  you like the world attempts to pull one [TS]

  over but I'm no dummy I know what the [TS]

  truth is so Apple people think Apple is [TS]

  great but I know the truth about Apple [TS]

  the truth about Apple is they [TS]

  intentionally make your phone slower to [TS]

  make you buy a new one and I'm on you [TS]

  know they're they're not fooling me [TS]

  right and it's important to them to feel [TS]

  like they are that the world is not [TS]

  fooling them is often people who are [TS]

  mostly being fooled by almost everything [TS]

  in the world and so they you know the [TS]

  it's important that they're that they [TS]

  show that that's not the case so they no [TS]

  matter how much like you can't you will [TS]

  never convince these people that it's [TS]

  not the case like there is no like [TS]

  literally you will never convince them [TS]

  like if they if they could personally [TS]

  speak to and live with for a year every [TS]

  employee living in dead of Apple and be [TS]

  truly convinced that they were never [TS]

  doing this they would do that in their [TS]

  infant life span come back and say yeah [TS]

  but I kind of think they're really doing [TS]

  it well it really doesn't help that that [TS]

  Apple just basically proved the first [TS]

  two-thirds of their theory correct yeah [TS]

  no that's the best thing like the [TS]

  important but there is no to throw 2/3 [TS]

  of the theory bit like the conclusion [TS]

  like that gets like this is what they're [TS]

  doing like they're doing it to make you [TS]

  buy a new phone because the other part [TS]

  of is not something to get work about [TS]

  they're doing it to make sure the [TS]

  hardware does it make sure my phone [TS]

  doesn't turn off well that doesn't sound [TS]

  like it something I should get that mad [TS]

  about it because they they don't they [TS]

  don't care about the nuances like PR [TS]

  communication and so on and so forth [TS]

  right maybe if you want to convince them [TS]

  maybe you could say what you should [TS]

  really be mad about is the fact that [TS]

  Apple didn't say this earlier and then [TS]

  they can get mad about that and maybe [TS]

  they'll feel like they still like are [TS]

  righteously angry and they can be [TS]

  righteously angry about that that's fine [TS]

  but some people will never give [TS]

  the notion of malice that like like like [TS]

  Volkswagen engineers secretly cheating [TS]

  the emissions test because that's the [TS]

  worst thing about this this Gruber [TS]

  points out in his article he used uber [TS]

  as an example because he doesn't know [TS]

  about the automotive world but VW is [TS]

  probably a more apt example large [TS]

  corporations do legitimately do actual [TS]

  actively maliciously evil cheesy things [TS]

  like this you know not by accident not [TS]

  to protect the engine but like detect [TS]

  when you're being emission tested and [TS]

  pretend like you have less emissions [TS]

  than you do but then really when you get [TS]

  use as a car put out way more our [TS]

  emissions Volkswagen did that and that's [TS]

  not good for that company so it's not a [TS]

  stretch to believe the corporation would [TS]

  do that but you know the the reason I [TS]

  mean I guess we had to say look the [TS]

  reason we all believe Apple wouldn't do [TS]

  this is mostly because it doesn't make [TS]

  sense I mean it's partially because we [TS]

  know people at Apple and we trust Apple [TS]

  and believe it and maybe we're suckers [TS]

  in blah blah blah but also because [TS]

  unlike cheating on emissions test which [TS]

  has a big upside for VW if they can pull [TS]

  it off successfully pulling off [TS]

  intentionally making your phones worse [TS]

  to make people buy new ones like it [TS]

  wouldn't make people buy new ones as [TS]

  Gruber has pointed out many many times [TS]

  it would make people buy an Android [TS]

  phone like if they knew like if their [TS]

  phones just get worse and if this has [TS]

  happened by the way with the shutdown [TS]

  stuff I've seen stuff like I bought in [TS]

  the last iPhone but then just kept [TS]

  turning off forget it and I next time [TS]

  I'm getting an Android phone it's way [TS]

  cheaper anyway right that's what [TS]

  actually happens if you intentionally or [TS]

  not intentionally if the phone you have [TS]

  starts getting worse you know like like [TS]

  Casey with this BMW if your engine keeps [TS]

  blowing up you're thinking maybe my [TS]

  caramel next time won't be a BMW [TS]

  okay he's not like that clever BMW [TS]

  tricking me into buying another BMW by [TS]

  making my engine blow up intentionally [TS]

  that's not how the world works but [TS]

  people do really want to feel like that [TS]

  you know they understand how they get [TS]

  you and the world's not pulling one over [TS]

  on them so well because in this case the [TS]

  world did pull one over on them and like [TS]

  it this one's only the only fix to this [TS]

  I mean it's gonna be a long-term [TS]

  reputation problem and this you know the [TS]

  having Mouse attributed to it is going [TS]

  to be a very long-term problem but the [TS]

  only way to start fixing this is to [TS]

  communicate about it from the phone a PR [TS]

  statement is not enough because most [TS]

  people when I read PR statements and if [TS]

  they do they won't believe them the [TS]

  phone has to tell the [TS]

  when this throttling happens and tell [TS]

  them why it's happening and how much do [TS]

  you think that will help I agree that it [TS]

  will help but how much Oh massively [TS]

  because that that totally changes the [TS]

  the view of it not for everybody not [TS]

  going to convince everybody but they [TS]

  will it'll at least appear that they're [TS]

  not trying to hide this fact from you [TS]

  you know because the narrative is that [TS]

  they are they are secretly like trickily [TS]

  like slowing down your phone if they [TS]

  tell you your phone can't run at full [TS]

  speed because the battery is is too worn [TS]

  out that's a very different look and [TS]

  again that's gonna piss people off too [TS]

  but not as many it's a way fewer [TS]

  percentage I was like if 100 percent is [TS]

  everyone suddenly has good feelings and [TS]

  0% is this doesn't make anybody feel [TS]

  better what percentage would you say [TS]

  that this helps bring me half to 2/3 I'd [TS]

  say I mean a lot we're on the same page [TS]

  because I think it's half as well my [TS]

  guess would be about half like a half of [TS]

  the people will be will see that dialog [TS]

  and will be like yeah it's a bummer but [TS]

  I understand what's going on and the [TS]

  other half of the people like I said [TS]

  will say this dialog box proves the app [TS]

  was trying to get me a new phone by [TS]

  lying to me with this dialog box so it [TS]

  is way better than what they did this [TS]

  time but I am pessimistic that this will [TS]

  you know and if you think about it the [TS]

  like I don't know the the the not saying [TS]

  anything strategy pretend the not saying [TS]

  anything strategy had had been ongoing [TS]

  and you know this this whole information [TS]

  had not come out right they just [TS]

  continue to but they're not saying [TS]

  anything thing Apple could have [TS]

  theoretically weathered that storm and [TS]

  just put better batteries in their phone [TS]

  and eventually the six is all cycle out [TS]

  and then you know they sort of [TS]

  quote-unquote win so the you know this [TS]

  strategy they chose to do is riskier [TS]

  right because something like what what [TS]

  just happened could happen but the [TS]

  potential upside I think is better than [TS]

  the 50% solution where half the people [TS]

  think now the dialog box is proof [TS]

  positive that Apple is trying to trick [TS]

  you into buying a new phone by making [TS]

  your phone slower because that dialog [TS]

  box is total BS my battery's fine I know [TS]

  it's fine it's telling me I need a new [TS]

  phone it's just you know anyway when to [TS]

  be clear they said like they said in [TS]

  statement that right now it applies to [TS]

  iPhone 6 and 6s but it's going to but [TS]

  the 7 is going to be added soon and [TS]

  future devices will be [TS]

  as time goes on like they said that so [TS]

  it isn't a problem inherent to the six [TS]

  and success like this this problem isn't [TS]

  gonna go away right but I think the [TS]

  battery is better in the seven like I [TS]

  think like they put a bigger battery in [TS]

  and that supposedly will make it you [TS]

  know so that doesn't get go under [TS]

  current as you know so maybe the last to [TS]

  have two years two and a half years or [TS]

  whatever like I think they're because I [TS]

  think the root problem is sort of the [TS]

  design lifetime of the phone right it's [TS]

  not like you know they have to pick a [TS]

  design lifetime like you have to like I [TS]

  said they could pick any number they [TS]

  wanted it as their target right I think [TS]

  they've been moving their target up [TS]

  which will help them with this problem [TS]

  there is no no phone like mega design [TS]

  where this problem will never come up [TS]

  unless they have totally different [TS]

  battery technology so they have to pick [TS]

  a time and no matter what they need to [TS]

  have this messaging so if someone [TS]

  happens to keep their phone they make a [TS]

  phone the last five years somewhat if [TS]

  someone keeps it for six years you still [TS]

  need this all this mechanism in there [TS]

  for when it goes bad it's just a [TS]

  question of what that number is and I [TS]

  think the number is farther out on the [TS]

  sevens intense we'll see we'll see when [TS]

  they when they had the software feature [TS]

  I mean you'll find out basically it's [TS]

  like do people have sevens now that are [TS]

  like switching off like KC six used to [TS]

  or all the sevens too young at this [TS]

  point I don't know I I haven't heard it [TS]

  I mean I have a seven so I'll be [TS]

  watching for it but it's an inherent [TS]

  problem with the battery technology and [TS]

  the problem with having a steal battery [TS]

  and all that stuff and so communication [TS]

  will help with that but I think apple [TS]

  also dreads the idea of people seeing [TS]

  that dialog box because some people some [TS]

  percentage of people will see that [TS]

  dialog box and have a concrete thing to [TS]

  point to to say that Apple is malicious [TS]

  and evil like they look at this dialog [TS]

  box apples coming right out and telling [TS]

  me you should buy a new phone because [TS]

  we're you know we're artificially making [TS]

  your phone slow to make you buy a new [TS]

  phone like that's how they'll read that [TS]

  dialogue boxing that's a bummer we our [TS]

  sponsor this week by Squarespace start [TS]

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  to make your own websites there's [TS]

  probably other ways you can do this [TS]

  trust me [TS]

  try squarespace first whether it's a [TS]

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  squarespace because you can get really [TS]

  far in an hour or two you can probably [TS]

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  don't even have to ask you for a credit [TS]

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  at and just see how far [TS]

  you get and it's gonna be so great I bet [TS]

  you're gonna keep it you're gonna stick [TS]

  with it it is so easy to use no matter [TS]

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  [Music] [TS]

  Apple is taking a page from the windows [TS]

  playbook just today and by today I mean [TS]

  exactly 7 days ago Apple or I should say [TS]

  that that Bloomberg released a post as [TS]

  Mark Kerman saying Apple plans combined [TS]

  iPhone iPad and Mac apps to create one [TS]

  user experience speaking of a Microsoft [TS]

  tagline one user experience and speaking [TS]

  of a headline that does not accurately [TS]

  represent the ideas and contained in the [TS]

  article I'm shocked yeah no way so this [TS]

  is a again a post by gurmann and and the [TS]

  summary seems to be that there will be a [TS]

  change probably next year if he's right [TS]

  that what we currently think of as a [TS]

  universal app [TS]

  or maybe there'll be a new term for it [TS]

  but but there will be a mechanism by [TS]

  which the same app can be run on iOS and [TS]

  Mac OS and so in the same way that we [TS]

  have Universal apps on the iOS App Store [TS]

  which can be run on iPhone and iPad in [TS]

  the future their own I guess Apple watch [TS]

  although that's not really part of being [TS]

  universal but anyway but it's three [TS]

  different platforms in the future there [TS]

  there may or perhaps will be a mechanism [TS]

  by which we will have the same app [TS]

  running on iPhone on iPad potentially an [TS]

  Apple watch and on Mac OS and nobody [TS]

  really knows what the engineering [TS]

  mechanism is behind this [TS]

  but that supposedly is the future if you [TS]

  believe mark Garmin so I think it's [TS]

  worth pontificating about what the [TS]

  different paths are to this end but [TS]

  before we go down that road [TS]

  are there any immediate thoughts on this [TS]

  starting with John I think the important [TS]

  thing the important part of this story [TS]

  to think about and this is the rumor so [TS]

  we don't know bla bla bla they did a lot [TS]

  of equivocating in this but it might [TS]

  come next year but they might cancel it [TS]

  but it might not great ok um so the [TS]

  motivation behind this is something that [TS]

  we've talked about in this show a lot [TS]

  specifically when Marco has been like [TS]

  making Mac applications and stuff and [TS]

  and poorly yeah the historical side with [TS]

  that here here's what I think why why I [TS]

  believe that projects like this are you [TS]

  know conceivably going on inside Apple [TS]

  and may actually ship Apple has an [TS]

  important asset that they brag about in [TS]

  you know it's all the time but that I [TS]

  think people tend not to think about [TS]

  that much which is you know when they [TS]

  put that slide says we have X number of [TS]

  thousands or millions of developers they [TS]

  brag about number apps but number of [TS]

  apps is a proxy for a number of [TS]

  developers whose developers are writing [TS]

  those apps Apple used to have a certain [TS]

  amount of people who were Mac developers [TS]

  but now they have way way more people [TS]

  who are iOS developers there are a lot [TS]

  of iOS developers that is a tremendous [TS]

  asset for Apple it's huge number [TS]

  people who know how to write [TS]

  applications for iOS and do it to make [TS]

  money it's a virtuous cycle like it's [TS]

  you know the whole marketplace it's [TS]

  great for Apple makes money when they [TS]

  make money but really the important [TS]

  asset is a bunch of people out there [TS]

  know how to write iOS apps fewer people [TS]

  out there know how to write Mac apps [TS]

  fewer every year because the maca maca [TS]

  developers get older and most people who [TS]

  are learning to write absolutely to [TS]

  write them on iOS one way Apple could [TS]

  deal with this is say we're just gonna [TS]

  sunset the Mac whatever the Mac was the [TS]

  past iOS is the future all these [TS]

  developers know how to develop for iOS [TS]

  we'll just let all the Mac developers [TS]

  retire and golf into the sunset and [TS]

  we'll can the Mac line and blah blah [TS]

  blah you know and everything we've seen [TS]

  about VR has said no we're not doing [TS]

  that the Mac is important blah blah blah [TS]

  and yeah it's important bit until it's [TS]

  not but so far the messaging is pretty [TS]

  clear thumbs up on the Mac in fact we're [TS]

  rededicating ourselves to the Mac the [TS]

  Mac is an important product the Mac and [TS]

  iOS fill different roles we're never [TS]

  gonna force the Mac to be like iOS of [TS]

  course I was to be like the Mac all [TS]

  those things that they said but they do [TS]

  have the problem of a small number of [TS]

  Mac developers a small number of Mac [TS]

  apps and smaller all the time like tons [TS]

  of applications are available on iOS and [TS]

  TV OS but not on the Mac in the old days [TS]

  of just the PC world of course they'd be [TS]

  available on the Mac if they were [TS]

  available in any app platform now many [TS]

  things are available in out black or [TS]

  it's not available on the Mac and one of [TS]

  the big reasons is you have at least [TS]

  evelle person over iOS apps but they [TS]

  don't know how to write Mac apps and [TS]

  writing Mac apps is different enough [TS]

  that it is non-trivial to do that so [TS]

  they're assuming Apple wants to keep the [TS]

  Mac around which they keep saying they [TS]

  do one way to solve that problem is to [TS]

  find a way to let the huge number of [TS]

  people who know how to write iOS apps [TS]

  reuse some or all those skills to target [TS]

  the Mac and that I think is what any [TS]

  project like this would be about it [TS]

  would be about leveraging that asset to [TS]

  you know bring up their other platform [TS]

  and yes the unification is important too [TS]

  like trying to unify but you know the [TS]

  reason I said this headline was [TS]

  misleading his visit says to create one [TS]

  user experience but then you read the [TS]

  article on it's like the application [TS]

  sometimes we'll use touch but then [TS]

  sometimes we'll use a mouse and a [TS]

  pointer it's like that's naughty that's [TS]

  what not one user experience that's two [TS]

  user experiences and it should be [TS]

  because the mouse cursor is different [TS]

  than touch and you can't use you know [TS]

  different things working different you [TS]

  know anyway this is all about letting [TS]

  leveraging the those skills and I am I [TS]

  think I think Mark already talked about [TS]

  this someone of his podcast that he's [TS]

  all recorded in the in the past future I [TS]

  don't know how time works anymore the [TS]

  Days of Future past seven days ago we [TS]

  discussed under the radar yeah but I [TS]

  think you'll hear a lot about iOS [TS]

  developer saying I'd yeah if I could use [TS]

  my skills to either make a mac app or to [TS]

  bring the app that I already have and I [TS]

  on iPhone and iPad to the Mac maybe that [TS]

  would make sense at the very least I [TS]

  would entertain it like I wouldn't rule [TS]

  it out like I have to see if it makes [TS]

  sense in terms of economics and so on [TS]

  and so forth there are some potential [TS]

  upside potential downsides but a lot of [TS]

  time you know like it it's when you [TS]

  remove the barrier and say you can use [TS]

  your skills that you have for iOS and [TS]

  you know you know how to use UI kid and [TS]

  make table views and do all this stuff [TS]

  and there's some about new stuff you [TS]

  might learn but you can reuse your code [TS]

  and you can reuse your skills and to you [TS]

  know to varying a sense they would be [TS]

  open to that idea because it is [TS]

  potential new way to make money and yes [TS]

  it's a smaller platform but in theory we [TS]

  know this is true but in theory you [TS]

  might be able to charge even higher [TS]

  prices than you do on the iPad so that's [TS]

  the lens through which I'm viewing all [TS]

  these rumors and getting it what Casey [TS]

  was talking about yeah but how but how [TS]

  would they do that [TS]

  there are many ways that they could do [TS]

  it that would be bad for Mac users in [TS]

  bed for developers like they can blow it [TS]

  but if I want to put up like what are [TS]

  the goals of this project the goals are [TS]

  leverage one of Apple's greatest assets [TS]

  tons of developers who know how to do [TS]

  well for iOS alright so before we talk [TS]

  how Marco any other thoughts the Devils [TS]

  in the details but conceptually I love [TS]

  this idea [TS]

  it is not gonna be an easy thing to do [TS]

  you know if this is this is really a [TS]

  thing they're working on it's that's not [TS]

  easy because the two platforms are very [TS]

  very different from each other and I [TS]

  don't just mean like on at an API level [TS]

  I'm talking about just like the an [TS]

  interaction and use [TS]

  fullness level and the needs of a Mac [TS]

  app you know versus iOS like in many [TS]

  ways developing an iOS is way easier [TS]

  because there's a lot of things that you [TS]

  don't have to worry about that on the [TS]

  Mac you have to accommodate or think [TS]

  about or support just because people [TS]

  expect different kind of interactions on [TS]

  the Mac like you know just simple things [TS]

  like you know you have the entire menu [TS]

  system you also have things like [TS]

  drag-and-drop and different types of [TS]

  like you know data providing services [TS]

  that you have all sorts of different you [TS]

  have windowing multiple windows multiple [TS]

  documents being open the the entire [TS]

  document system behind that you have [TS]

  things like undo which you don't have [TS]

  all sorts of of rich behaviors that have [TS]

  been built over time many of us quite a [TS]

  long time ago that people expect all [TS]

  like you know quote computer apps to be [TS]

  able to do now [TS]

  things like script ability even like [TS]

  they're so they're so so much that Mac [TS]

  apps do that iOS developers don't ever [TS]

  have to worry about or don't have to [TS]

  even think about making something that [TS]

  can do that rich power of the Mac with [TS]

  iOS like code or iOS like UI frameworks [TS]

  that's not a small job and there's lots [TS]

  of ways to do that very badly and so a [TS]

  lot of Mac people are wary if this [TS]

  announcement or they were seven days ago [TS]

  at least where they're worried like you [TS]

  know we don't want like the equivalent [TS]

  of an iOS app running in a simulator [TS]

  window just you know and here we are [TS]

  like dragging our mouse over it to [TS]

  simulate touch swipes and everything [TS]

  like nobody wants that and if that's [TS]

  what this ends up being that that would [TS]

  be a huge failure on a number of levels [TS]

  and a tragedy honestly but I have a [TS]

  feeling apples better than that like I [TS]

  don't think they would do that I think [TS]

  if they're gonna do this at all they're [TS]

  hopefully they're gonna do a really good [TS]

  job of it and that's again it's not easy [TS]

  and it wouldn't surprise me if they get [TS]

  if they go down this road if they've [TS]

  been going on this run for a while and [TS]

  then they eventually decide you know [TS]

  what this actually isn't good enough we [TS]

  shouldn't do this anymore like that [TS]

  wouldn't surprise me at all [TS]

  I feel like even if they did and maybe [TS]

  they've done that three times already [TS]

  they were [TS]

  take another run at it because I feel [TS]

  like the only two possible options are [TS]

  sunset the Mac or find a way to leverage [TS]

  the eventually you know in in a not huge [TS]

  number of years would you say on an [TS]

  infinite time no non infinite on a [TS]

  finite and fairly short time scale that [TS]

  means gets the desk on the number of [TS]

  people who know how to make a good Mac [TS]

  app is not going out it's just not right [TS]

  this and the number of people who know [TS]

  how to make a good iOS app is going up [TS]

  in a tremendous number of this you have [TS]

  to find a way to either you know don't [TS]

  have people do off of the Mac anymore or [TS]

  repurpose repoint your your big asset of [TS]

  the fleet of developers at the Mac [TS]

  because that's the only way you're going [TS]

  to get an ongoing supply of good Mac [TS]

  apps right and so I think you know there [TS]

  like you said there are just so many [TS]

  ways to do this wrong right and if they [TS]

  tried a bunch of approaches and they [TS]

  suck I think they would say okay but [TS]

  let's try again with a different [TS]

  approach eventually you assume the one [TS]

  they come out with is one of them as an [TS]

  approach that they feel kind of okay [TS]

  with but you know they could blow it and [TS]

  try again [TS]

  anyway the for the approaches I think [TS]

  there's a few obvious ones a couple the [TS]

  obvious ones it's not clear to me [TS]

  whether these are approaches that [TS]

  they've decided suck and they don't want [TS]

  to pursue but it very least these are [TS]

  approaches they have code for are things [TS]

  like UX kit which is like what when a [TS]

  lot of applications start appearing on [TS]

  the Mac and people said they looked and [TS]

  smelled kind of like iOS applications a [TS]

  lot of them used either actual UX kit or [TS]

  similar approaches where it is like a UI [TS]

  kit sort of facade that just calls app [TS]

  get stuff under the covers to let you [TS]

  repurpose code that you originally wrote [TS]

  for iOS devices to make an application [TS]

  core Mac application the kind of looks [TS]

  and behaves a little bit like an iOS [TS]

  application photos for the Mac is a [TS]

  great example this you know arguably [TS]

  like contacts or even something like the [TS]

  new Notes applications a lot example [TS]

  tabs that you look at them what maps [TS]

  yeah a lot of apps out there they kind [TS]

  of I mean there's a family resemblance [TS]

  but also like behavior wise you can kind [TS]

  of tell that they're not just using [TS]

  straight app kit because a lot of the [TS]

  stuff that you basically get for free [TS]

  with app kit doesn't exist in these [TS]

  applications like different behaviors [TS]

  different you know behaviors in terms of [TS]

  focus and keyboard shortcuts and stuff [TS]

  like that that are just different for [TS]

  reasons that don't make sense [TS]

  until you realize that they probably [TS]

  just reused a lot of UI code so aux get [TS]

  like approach is one possible way to do [TS]

  that and like I said it's not clear to [TS]

  me whether they did that and decided [TS]

  actually that's not great so we're not [TS]

  taking that approach or they did that [TS]

  over many years with any applications [TS]

  decided actually this approach works [TS]

  pretty well this is what we're gonna go [TS]

  with so that approach would be [TS]

  essentially a new framework that's not [TS]

  apt-get but not UI kit but it looks very [TS]

  much like UI kit and lets people reuse [TS]

  some of their code from UI kit maybe [TS]

  with small tweaks but a lot of their [TS]

  skills I like to kind of know a table of [TS]

  use work I know how buttons work I know [TS]

  how you know animations and transitions [TS]

  work right and there's tons of new stuff [TS]

  you have to learn to with menus and so [TS]

  on and so forth but that's one approach [TS]

  a second approach is make a new toolkit [TS]

  and unfortunately Apple has really used [TS]

  up all the a lot of the good names it's [TS]

  a kit for making apps we can't call it [TS]

  app kid it's a UI q I'll not forget [TS]

  about that one it's an H I tool button [TS]

  oh never mind like they really use H I [TS]

  kid is one of the ones I've heard like [TS]

  you can combine kit with anyway come up [TS]

  with a new framework that looks almost [TS]

  exactly like UI Kipp is it presently the [TS]

  rocket represents the best thinking the [TS]

  company has about how to make a UI but [TS]

  with changes to fundamental things about [TS]

  it that allow it to handle all the [TS]

  things the Mac does menus cursors you [TS]

  know scroll bars blah blah and also all [TS]

  the things you eye kid does so that's [TS]

  the that's the kind of the actual sort [TS]

  of grand unified like there's one [TS]

  framework to write applications for [TS]

  everything and that would mean that it's [TS]

  not a shim on top of app kit that [TS]

  presumably they would implement whatever [TS]

  behaviors they implemented would define [TS]

  going forward what it means to be Mac [TS]

  like right as opposed to now where app [TS]

  kit defines what it means to be a Mac [TS]

  like more or less an Afghan itself was [TS]

  influenced by being smushed together [TS]

  with carbon and a chai toolkit and all [TS]

  that other stuff that's why that but [TS]

  what defines our app a definition of Mac [TS]

  like and that definition change from [TS]

  classic Mac OS as well so it's not like [TS]

  the definition of Mac like can't change [TS]

  but yeah an entirely new framework to do [TS]

  it and that new framework would also be [TS]

  the same new framework that people use [TS]

  for iOS so when you wrote your iOS [TS]

  application you would also you this is [TS]

  like the one new [TS]

  framework that can do everything the [TS]

  risks and that are hey why you messin up [TS]

  all these these iOS developers days well [TS]

  I learned all this UI kit stuff and now [TS]

  I have to learn this new thing yeah it [TS]

  looks like not like you are capable why [TS]

  do I want to use that if it's just like [TS]

  you like it but suddenly different with [TS]

  a bunch of mad crap that I don't care [TS]

  about why would I learn that so that's [TS]

  that is more difficult to pull off and [TS]

  risky but potentially the reward is [TS]

  finally Apple has one way to write [TS]

  applications for all its platforms and [TS]

  you know they have a unified API but in [TS]

  all these solutions and I think the real [TS]

  place where this any of these solutions [TS]

  are gonna be really hard to come up with [TS]

  something that ends up being you know a [TS]

  win for all involved is you know as this [TS]

  headline you know incorrectly states [TS]

  it's not one user experience for [TS]

  everybody Apple still seems dedicated to [TS]

  the idea that a mouse pointer and cursor [TS]

  and like you know the Mac user interface [TS]

  will continue to be a thing and [TS]

  applications that work like that are [TS]

  different than applications that work [TS]

  when you're touching them with your [TS]

  finger and fundamental important ways [TS]

  and there's really no way to say this [TS]

  one magic application just naturally [TS]

  works everywhere I made a tweet earlier [TS]

  today was write thrice run anywhere [TS]

  which is a joke on the old java thing of [TS]

  write once run anywhere write thrice [TS]

  means even if it is a unified toolkit [TS]

  and it's the same thing everywhere you [TS]

  use Xcode use one framework and you [TS]

  write an application that runs on all [TS]

  these platforms you still have [TS]

  essentially two quote unquote right at [TS]

  thrice which means you have to write the [TS]

  Mac version and do all the stuff with [TS]

  the menus and the keyboard shortcuts and [TS]

  the drag-and-drop and everything that [TS]

  the Mac has to do and you know right you [TS]

  have to write the iPhone version which [TS]

  is a known quantity and you have to [TS]

  write the iPad version it's like well [TS]

  why do you have to write the iPad [TS]

  version that's not another version ask [TS]

  somebody with an iOS app if the iPad [TS]

  version comes are free because they use [TS]

  UIKit it does not come for free you have [TS]

  to not write it thrice like it three [TS]

  times the application but just because [TS]

  the screen gets bigger you have to say [TS]

  let me three think how my application [TS]

  works right I have to add new elements [TS]

  to it I have to potentially add new [TS]

  features you know like it's not enough [TS]

  to just be in a phone app that is [TS]

  stretched to be a little bit wider so [TS]

  there's no way of avoiding having to [TS]

  write a good application for every [TS]

  platform yeah [TS]

  the platform's continue to be different [TS]

  in both form factor and in the case of [TS]

  the Mac you know interface paradigm like [TS]

  that's very different and an environment [TS]

  yeah any no no framework no UI framework [TS]

  will ever eliminate that work all it can [TS]

  do is say the only work you have to do [TS]

  is that work to make a good a good [TS]

  application of Marxism a good app but [TS]

  you won't have to relearn how like [TS]

  colors work right you don't have to [TS]

  relearn how like to play audio like you [TS]

  know just that that they'll unify the [TS]

  underlying things and have one unified [TS]

  framework and one unified language and [TS]

  IDE and one unified binary but you still [TS]

  have to design essentially three [TS]

  different applications of three very [TS]

  different forms and by the way the watch [TS]

  which you know they could unify that as [TS]

  well and not have watchkit and have that [TS]

  would be a variant of this thing if they [TS]

  want to go whole hog but there's no [TS]

  there's no avoiding that it's not one [TS]

  user experience it's one I guess [TS]

  framework one language you know and [TS]

  maybe not even that if they end up going [TS]

  with the Shem approach so I believe they [TS]

  have to do this but boy there's a lot of [TS]

  ways it could mess up and so I I wish [TS]

  them luck so if if they go whole new [TS]

  framework so they make a chai kit or [TS]

  whatever you want to call it I mean come [TS]

  on it's Swift there's nowhere just be [TS]

  called kit well in it's funny it's funny [TS]

  you say that because my question was [TS]

  going to be do they abandon Objective C [TS]

  I don't see why that would be either [TS]

  productive or necessary but Marco do you [TS]

  think they would abandon Objective C and [TS]

  this hypothetical a chai kit I mean if [TS]

  it's scheduled if it's intended to you [TS]

  know be in development now and come out [TS]

  in in like a year or two maybe but as [TS]

  time goes on on a finite time scale you [TS]

  know in a few like the longer it is from [TS]

  now I think the more likely that that [TS]

  would be the approach but yeah I mean [TS]

  I'm not even gonna say it's unlikely [TS]

  even now I would say that that would be [TS]

  reasonable like I don't think that would [TS]

  be overly aggressive to make kit require [TS]

  Swift like to be a swift only framework [TS]

  that's different than saying Objective C [TS]

  is gone because like even if they went [TS]

  full Swift you have to keep the [TS]

  objective-c runtime around for a really [TS]

  really long time because it's how Swift [TS]

  calls in to all the other code right so [TS]

  it you know so like but that's not were [TS]

  talk we're just I'm like would you have [TS]

  to write it in Objective C right the one [TS]

  thing I think they probably will do is [TS]

  no 32-bit ever four well yeah this thing [TS]

  is the Mac itself as it exists is gonna [TS]

  lose 32-bit probably next year right so [TS]

  that's that's a gimme it's possible that [TS]

  depending on the timelines if they [TS]

  switch the Mac to arm this could be arm [TS]

  only depending on you know is this one [TS]

  year five year or whatever you know that [TS]

  that timeline could coincide to simplify [TS]

  matters these are all low-level things [TS]

  they're really in the end don't matter [TS]

  like I think we're into it because you [TS]

  know either software developers or into [TS]

  software development things and we're [TS]

  interested in the nitty-gritty details [TS]

  but the bottom line like the most [TS]

  interesting from the consumers [TS]

  perspective is Apple's plan to continue [TS]

  to sell devices of different sizes in [TS]

  different forms utility so you know [TS]

  things that we call max things that we [TS]

  call iPhones things that we call iPads [TS]

  things that we call watchers all which [TS]

  have different ways to interact with [TS]

  them some are closer to each other than [TS]

  other iPads are very similar to an [TS]

  iPhone but a watch is very different [TS]

  from both of them and the Mac is very [TS]

  different from the iOS devices but [TS]

  there's a range of hardware devices they [TS]

  sell and partly and presumably will [TS]

  continue to sell because they're not [TS]

  giving up on that range like they're not [TS]

  you know they can make new hybrids like [TS]

  Jason and I talked to an upgrade about [TS]

  an iOS laptop like there's other form [TS]

  factors that can be explored and the [TS]

  other one is obviously touch coming to [TS]

  the Mac and how that might influence [TS]

  things but we case you mentioned [TS]

  Microsoft is a beginning of this topic I [TS]

  think that's an important lesson because [TS]

  Microsoft for all its success or failure [TS]

  in actually pulling this off was way [TS]

  ahead on the thinking of we're gonna try [TS]

  to make one software platform that lets [TS]

  you write applications for all sorts of [TS]

  different weird form factors and so they [TS]

  have laptops that are convertible into [TS]

  tablets but have touch screens on them [TS]

  but they also have tablets in at one [TS]

  time they had phones and they tried to [TS]

  run the whole range with a single [TS]

  unified platform that you'd have to [TS]

  write you know different style [TS]

  application [TS]

  for I forget what was their thing was [TS]

  like wnp or something like that they had [TS]

  an acronym for UMP I believe [TS]

  yeah unified Windows platform or [TS]

  something yeah that that approach if [TS]

  Apple could snap its fingers and have [TS]

  something like that now they would love [TS]

  to have it because the hard work is [TS]

  coming up with a free single framework [TS]

  that could span all those things but as [TS]

  far as consumers concerned the [TS]

  interesting part is so can I buy a thing [TS]

  from Apple where it like runs Mac you [TS]

  know it runs Adobe Photoshop like the [TS]

  legacy version but also I can get all [TS]

  the new apps but also I can touch a [TS]

  screen but also it looks like a laptop [TS]

  like the the unified apple platform is a [TS]

  time to make different decisions about [TS]

  the boundaries between these things like [TS]

  you can get rid of the Mac iOS whatever [TS]

  distinction and try to have these [TS]

  Universal apps and we're all set [TS]

  exciting economics for now that's a [TS]

  whole the can of worms but like I think [TS]

  it is an opportunity to revisit how [TS]

  those boundaries are drawn because if [TS]

  you're making a new framework or you [TS]

  know a new shim type framework or [TS]

  whatever it is that you're doing that's [TS]

  an opportunity to consider how could the [TS]

  Mac be different in ways that allow you [TS]

  to make touch a useful interface for [TS]

  Macs and if you've used the windows [TS]

  convertible or laptop with a touchscreen [TS]

  or whatever you have some experience [TS]

  with this a Microsoft is way ahead in [TS]

  both figuring out what makes sense for [TS]

  touching the screens of PCs for lack of [TS]

  a better term and also making the [TS]

  frameworks that allow you to do it [TS]

  Apple's lucky that they just haven't [TS]

  been particularly successful in the [TS]

  market with their approach but like that [TS]

  you learn you learn by doing and [TS]

  Microsoft has done many different [TS]

  attempts at this and from all accounts [TS]

  each time they try their new surface [TS]

  whatever thing and the new operating [TS]

  system that runs on it makes a an ever [TS]

  more compelling case for being open to [TS]

  different form factors and different [TS]

  kinds of input instead of the sort of [TS]

  rather rigid boundary certainly between [TS]

  the Mac and iOS but arguably also [TS]

  between like you know the iOS devices of [TS]

  different sizes so I'm I'm most excited [TS]

  from a consumer perspective of seeing [TS]

  Apple like that's what I want out of a [TS]

  unified thing is not like yeah the [TS]

  unified technical underpinnings would be [TS]

  awesome but like [TS]

  that finally it gives the Apple the [TS]

  freedom to spread it to to make new [TS]

  variations along the spectrum instead of [TS]

  being siloed into this is what a max [TS]

  like and this is what a phone is like [TS]

  and they're so different for each other [TS]

  and there's no crossover and don't try [TS]

  to do it no iOS laptops no touchscreen [TS]

  max never never never if it's a unified [TS]

  platform there's no reason for that [TS]

  distinction anymore and now they could [TS]

  start exploring different steps along [TS]

  the spectrum yeah I actually look [TS]

  forward to that because I do think it's [TS]

  pretty clear like the industry and and [TS]

  consumers have spoken on the issue of [TS]

  like touch laptops and as much as Apple [TS]

  says this isn't a good experience nobody [TS]

  wants this it turns out a lot of people [TS]

  want it and they do it anyway and they [TS]

  try it and they touch their screens [TS]

  nothing happens and they get like this [TS]

  is like Apple is losing that fight in [TS]

  the in actuality whether they know it or [TS]

  not and I think they probably do know it [TS]

  at this point you know they tried they [TS]

  tried like one last-ditch effort with [TS]

  touch bar and giant trackpads but that's [TS]

  not enough that's not what people [TS]

  actually want what people actually want [TS]

  is to have to touch the screen sometimes [TS]

  or to be able to suck screen sometimes [TS]

  like that's what people are actually [TS]

  doing and wanting and expecting so [TS]

  anything that gets us closer to that I [TS]

  think is a good direction for the Mac to [TS]

  take because again the reality is like [TS]

  this is what people are doing and a lot [TS]

  is I think the whole idea of this of [TS]

  like this cross-platform UI framework [TS]

  needing to exist I think you know you [TS]

  put it well John that like regardless of [TS]

  what you think people should do here you [TS]

  know a lot of maxvill person people [TS]

  should just write Mac apps and app kit [TS]

  and yeah that they should but they're [TS]

  not the reality is very different the [TS]

  reality is that all the action is [TS]

  happening on iOS in in the Apple world [TS]

  they can't get people to care enough [TS]

  about the Mac to develop a lot of Mac [TS]

  apps anymore the Mac feels increasingly [TS]

  like a very stale low priority platform [TS]

  for a lot of developers including Apple [TS]

  they have to do something to make it [TS]

  easier for people to bring max mac apps [TS]

  over and if they don't we're gonna keep [TS]

  we're gonna have the situation we have [TS]

  now on the Mac that's going to slow [TS]

  worsen which is right now we already [TS]

  have like tons of major applications [TS]

  that are either that are not available [TS]

  on the Mac that or the or that have [TS]

  really neglected low priority Mac [TS]

  versions like the Twitter app you know [TS]

  and then we have a lot of apps that say [TS]

  oh just use the web app and I'm good [TS]

  myself obviously Netflix is a great [TS]

  example because you can't even watch 4k [TS]

  Netflix on a Mac because there's no 4k [TS]

  support probably some dumb copyright [TS]

  reason right exactly and like there's so [TS]

  many types of apps where the answer on [TS]

  the Mac is either a sorry we don't [TS]

  support it or juice use our web app best [TS]

  case scenario [TS]

  for something for a lot of complex [TS]

  things like slack you get these like [TS]

  weird web native apps that nobody likes [TS]

  because they're terrible in a lot of [TS]

  ways and perform badly and use all your [TS]

  RAM and aren't Mac like and everything [TS]

  else so like anything like that's the [TS]

  status quo that's the reality like the [TS]

  reality is app kit is the past it's and [TS]

  and as as capable as it is the people [TS]

  who know it the market has said [TS]

  otherwise economics have said otherwise [TS]

  and people's attention has it has it [TS]

  otherwise it in many ways it's it's [TS]

  similar to Swift versus Objective C in [TS]

  that Objective C like for people like me [TS]

  who know it really well Swift came along [TS]

  and we're like we don't need I don't [TS]

  need that that like I I want to just [TS]

  keep using the thing I already know how [TS]

  to use it's totally fine but the reality [TS]

  was one of the reasons they did need [TS]

  Swift looked we we talked about at the [TS]

  time it came out is that it is it [TS]

  Objective C was old and crufty and it [TS]

  and it turned off new developers [TS]

  developers were actively avoiding write [TS]

  a Objective C because it was old and [TS]

  crufty and it would didn't fit modern [TS]

  aesthetics for programming languages app [TS]

  kit has that problem as an as an entire [TS]

  API like app kit is really old and [TS]

  crufty and when an iOS developer sees [TS]

  advocate for the first time it is not a [TS]

  positive impression at all and any and [TS]

  and as an iOS developer working through [TS]

  this and I know other people who've done [TS]

  the same thing it's like it's really it [TS]

  doesn't ever let up like there are [TS]

  certain parts of it [TS]

  like when you when you first discover [TS]

  like what and as document does [TS]

  automatically for you you're like wow [TS]

  this is really capable this is awesome [TS]

  but there's just so much friction in [TS]

  getting those interfaces developed and [TS]

  to be clear like the lower-level [TS]

  frameworks like I'll do all the audio [TS]

  stuff a lot of the you know data types [TS]

  and stuff a lot of those things are [TS]

  already unified like a lot of the [TS]

  networking like there's so much stuff [TS]

  that is already unified between two [TS]

  platforms the main area where this is [TS]

  necessary is the UI layer and there are [TS]

  just so many differences it's not like [TS]

  so many things work completely [TS]

  differently between a Mac OS and iOS [TS]

  it's a huge barrier to developing for [TS]

  the Mac it is so hostile and unfriendly [TS]

  and and you can't look up help on the [TS]

  web because there's almost no results [TS]

  for it and it's just it's it's like a [TS]

  ghost town of old Croft and on [TS]

  friendliness and I know that's not like [TS]

  if you know if you're familiar with it [TS]

  if you're an expert in app kit you don't [TS]

  see it that way but for all the rest of [TS]

  the iOS developers who are not familiar [TS]

  with it that is how it is so even though [TS]

  it is fine for its current developers it [TS]

  needs to change because the entire world [TS]

  has changed around it so something has [TS]

  to happen here and the Mac if they gave [TS]

  the Mac its own completely new UI [TS]

  framework that was not shared with [TS]

  anything look what happened with TV OS [TS]

  TV OS had that it had a whole new [TS]

  framework that was mostly not UI kit and [TS]

  kind of has its own stuff it although it [TS]

  has way more in common with UI kit that [TS]

  app kit does and making a TV OS app is [TS]

  really uncompelled because you have to [TS]

  rewrite your entire UI from scratch and [TS]

  it's just not very good watch OS has a [TS]

  similar problem like watch kit is very [TS]

  little like you like it and although [TS]

  it's still way more like at the napkin [TS]

  and and making a watchkit app is really [TS]

  not compelling because it's a these are [TS]

  like smaller usage platforms the iPad is [TS]

  a great example and I think probably [TS]

  honestly a big part of why this kind of [TS]

  thing might be might be done on the iPad [TS]

  you know John you said earlier like you [TS]

  know you don't get an iPad app for free [TS]

  but you do get it for cheap like like if [TS]

  you have it [TS]

  phone app to port to the iPad is effort [TS]

  but it's not a ton of effort it's [TS]

  nowhere near the amount of effort [TS]

  because he uses the same UI framework [TS]

  but then like to make a good iPad app [TS]

  you have to redesign some part of it [TS]

  yeah but it's like you know like [TS]

  overcast iPad app is used by something [TS]

  like 5% or less of people I use it every [TS]

  day but most most people don't use it [TS]

  but it was you know it's about 5% extra [TS]

  work to do it also so like it was worth [TS]

  it to me and and yeah it could be better [TS]

  than it is [TS]

  it could be more optimized but it [TS]

  doesn't need to be like right now it's [TS]

  fine on the iPad there's no glaring [TS]

  shortcomings with it it's totally fine [TS]

  and I didn't it didn't need to be that [TS]

  much work and it isn't that much of a [TS]

  maintenance headache ongoing if the Mac [TS]

  can be anywhere near that I don't expect [TS]

  I don't I don't expect a Mac the Mac to [TS]

  be as easy to port it to be harder [TS]

  because you got menus and all and no [TS]

  touch interface right right so it's not [TS]

  gonna be the same it's not going to be [TS]

  as easy as porting from you know to the [TS]

  to the iPad from from iPhone but if it [TS]

  can be somewhere near that if it can be [TS]

  like only three times harder instead of [TS]

  20 times harder like that's a huge huge [TS]

  gain that could lead to so many more Mac [TS]

  apps and and honestly I know as you said [TS]

  John honestly I think I'm not sure the [TS]

  Mac has much of a choice because the [TS]

  reality is that if they don't do [TS]

  something like this it's just going to [TS]

  keep stagnating and it will die that is [TS]

  it like that is that is the future of [TS]

  the Mac it has no future if they don't [TS]

  find a way to make it easier to develop [TS]

  apps for the Mac if you already have an [TS]

  iOS codebase [TS]

  all the other way that have a future is [TS]

  to sell a hundred times more Mac's but [TS]

  that's that's a tall order yeah I think [TS]

  if you could suddenly sell as many maxes [TS]

  you so iPhones this problem takes care [TS]

  of itself and people just continue to [TS]

  write an app kit and you're fine but [TS]

  that's not the reality right exactly [TS]

  so one more technical thing on this this [TS]

  is not this is not likely but I like [TS]

  thinking about ways you could possibly [TS]

  get this win another problem Apple has [TS]

  with its platforms arguably and you know [TS]

  we can debate what the causes are but [TS]

  there's a lot of applications a lot of [TS]

  very sophisticated very powerful [TS]

  applications are only available on the [TS]

  Mac [TS]

  and Apple would love for those [TS]

  applications to be available on iOS [TS]

  devices but for a variety of reasons [TS]

  that's not always the case now if you [TS]

  make a unified UI framework depending on [TS]

  how you do it we're talking about a shim [TS]

  layer that lets you basically write with [TS]

  a UI kit like API but they call zap get [TS]

  stuff under the covers as a quicker way [TS]

  to let people reuse some of their code [TS]

  and skills to write Mac applications you [TS]

  could make something like that in the [TS]

  reverse direction to let someone take a [TS]

  complicated sophisticated Mac [TS]

  application and and allow it to run on [TS]

  iOS with some changes to make it work [TS]

  for touch I'm sure Apple I mean I don't [TS]

  know babbles frustrated by this but I [TS]

  know a lot of users are frustrated by [TS]

  the fact that there's no Photoshop for [TS]

  the iPad right Adobe makes a Photoshop [TS]

  for the iPad but it's not it's not [TS]

  Photoshop Photoshop it's like then Adobe [TS]

  makes a bunch of applications that try [TS]

  to play to the strengths of the iOS [TS]

  platform but none of them is full none [TS]

  of them are full fledged Photoshop like [TS]

  there and there other companies trying [TS]

  to pick up that slack say find Adobe [TS]

  you're not gonna do it trust me you [TS]

  don't want to do it important Photoshop [TS]

  to the capability wise like affinity [TS]

  makes a bunch of great applications and [TS]

  what's the other one the other [TS]

  well-known one there's Pixelmator [TS]

  picture meter pro affinity a core and a [TS]

  whole lotta a whole lot of good ones [TS]

  yeah there's a lot of applications that [TS]

  are targeted but like but there's a lot [TS]

  still a lot of sophisticated [TS]

  applications that are only on the Mac [TS]

  and you say well it's because the Mac is [TS]

  powerful enough and so on and so forth [TS]

  like all the excuses for why there's [TS]

  only iMac eventually will come down to [TS]

  well it's written in this framework that [TS]

  doesn't run on iOS and we're not gonna [TS]

  rewrite our whole application gets is [TS]

  really big and complicated I mean the [TS]

  only companies that can afford to do [TS]

  stuff like that are Microsoft and even [TS]

  their iOS versions are you know [TS]

  Microsoft Word and Excel kind of a name [TS]

  only like they're very different if you [TS]

  can have a way to make a unified [TS]

  framework and shim layer or something or [TS]

  other that lets a bunch of Mac [TS]

  developers with some amount of work that [TS]

  is less than rewriting their entire [TS]

  application which is you know it's [TS]

  pretty easy to at that bar some some [TS]

  smaller amount of work and rewrite [TS]

  everything and UIKit let them sell their [TS]

  well-known well-established extremely [TS]

  powerful application for the 20 new 27 [TS]

  inch iPad pro that is a compelling case [TS]

  and it solves it solves Mac developers [TS]

  problems in that well now suddenly you [TS]

  can address this market with your skills [TS]

  that you have right but that's not why [TS]

  cares about that gazelle just lets the [TS]

  smack developers retire and die whatever [TS]

  who cares it solves the problem Apple [TS]

  has which is hey we would really like it [TS]

  if we could get way more expensive [TS]

  powerful applications on iOS Apple's [TS]

  been trying that for a long time that's [TS]

  why the iPad pro exists and it is [TS]

  happening it is happening slowly but one [TS]

  way to get a nice boost of complicated [TS]

  powerful applications if you could [TS]

  somehow make that happen now I think [TS]

  that is not a big enough app side for up [TS]

  side of people to undertake this it kind [TS]

  of goes against what we're trying to get [TS]

  people to do is to get people to stop [TS]

  writing a napkin and who cares about the [TS]

  10 Mac developers compared to the you [TS]

  know thousand X number of them that are [TS]

  on the other platform so I don't think [TS]

  this will happen but for the briefest [TS]

  moment I had the idea of like all our [TS]

  greatest and favorite Mac applications [TS]

  suddenly having cool iOS versions and [TS]

  making iOS a more powerful platform and [TS]

  giving new life to Mac developers but I [TS]

  think that it's extremely unlikely but [TS]

  it makes gives me a warm fuzzy to think [TS]

  about it so one final question because I [TS]

  can't help myself let's assume for the [TS]

  sake of discussion that there's a fairly [TS]

  complete break and it's not just a shim [TS]

  it's a completely new H Ike it do you [TS]

  think that Apple would follow the same [TS]

  like delegation everywhere pattern that [TS]

  that UI kid has today and I'm trying to [TS]

  think of a way to summarize delegation [TS]

  easily and I can't think of a great one [TS]

  but you wanted to all be reactive well [TS]

  that's exactly what I'm driving at may [TS]

  be reactive app get as delegates all [TS]

  over the place - is that what you're [TS]

  comparing it to a delegation app kit [TS]

  style I would say delegation as compared [TS]

  to react style stuff like functional [TS]

  reactive programming your so it doesn't [TS]

  have to be FRP it doesn't have to be rx [TS]

  Swift necessarily but like anything [TS]

  that's more modern than delegation even [TS]

  just closures everywhere which I [TS]

  admittedly Apple is moving toward but [TS]

  like yeah something more modern than [TS]

  delegation do you think that it would be [TS]

  a slight step forward such as closures [TS]

  everywhere or do you think it would be a [TS]

  whole hog like we're going to just burn [TS]

  the world [TS]

  the world [TS]

  it feels like I haven't talked to you [TS]

  gentlemen for seven days it definitely [TS]

  hasn't been 48 hours definitely not it [TS]

  has been exactly seven days since we [TS]

  last spoke allegedly and boy there sure [TS]

  was a lot of news seven days ago so I [TS]

  think we should talk about that now I [TS]

  think that sounds like a good idea are [TS]

  we doing any sort of pre-show or are we [TS]

  just gonna skip that I think that was [TS]

  the pre-show so we're gonna start with [TS]

  some follow-up and I'll be stoddard [TS]

  right saying there's an Apple support [TS]

  document entitled about secure boot [TS]

  where it says and I'm quoting full [TS]

  security is the default secure boot [TS]

  setting offering the highest level of [TS]

  security and this was it with regard to [TS]

  the t2 chip the liquid metal chip that [TS]

  is in the iMac Pro and it is the thing [TS]

  where it will only let you boot stuff [TS]

  that Apple signs in quasi not really at [TS]

  all accurate summary so which one of you [TS]

  guys put this in here any other thoughts [TS]

  yeah just put it in there because are we [TS]

  pretending that we're regarding this not [TS]

  recording this two days after the pop-up [TS]

  and this is a straightforward follow-up [TS]

  we didn't know what the default was [TS]

  Apple told us we've got a lot of [TS]

  follow-up seven days ago about this and [TS]

  we wanted to talk about it it's [TS]

  interesting that the cranked up security [TS]

  is the default one piece remember the [TS]

  full security setting was the one that [TS]

  doesn't even let you boot if you have an [TS]

  old version of the OS and I'm having a [TS]

  hard time figuring out who would find [TS]

  that behavior desirable other than [TS]

  people who have a bunch of Mac's [TS]

  other than enterprise people and you [TS]

  know my old definition of enterprise [TS]

  software of like the people buying the [TS]

  software and other people using it well [TS]

  an enterprise situation is where the [TS]

  people deciding how the computers work [TS]

  are picking things based on how easy it [TS]

  is for them to manage the computers not [TS]

  based on how nice it is for the people [TS]

  who have to use the computers to use [TS]

  them but even though even for in an [TS]

  enterprise scenario enterprise people [TS]

  don't want their computers automatically [TS]

  updating without them having extensively [TS]

  tested that every single piece of [TS]

  software on them is compatible with it [TS]

  so I don't know that the Apple phrase is [TS]

  this as being like the iPhone oh it's [TS]

  like the I thought all this you know [TS]

  physical security you know so much [TS]

  stronger than the old just firmware [TS]

  password now it's like an iOS device [TS]

  but iOS devices don't refuse to boot [TS]

  unless you up them and then they're [TS]

  they're pretty naggy about it telling [TS]

  you hey there's a new update look at [TS]

  this red badge and your Settings app but [TS]

  they don't that you know they don't for [TS]

  actually force the update on you and [TS]

  that's not must understanding how the [TS]

  full security works but anyway when [TS]

  Marco gets his Mac Pro he will be able [TS]

  to confirm this default and then I [TS]

  suppose like just wait for the first dot [TS]

  release of High Sierra to come out and [TS]

  then reboot and see if it demands that [TS]

  you update you'll be a good guinea pig [TS]

  right well I it's I think we yeah a lot [TS]

  of this remains to be seen but one thing [TS]

  I misunderstood about it that I've seen [TS]

  I've it seems like their language is [TS]

  such that they don't necessarily require [TS]

  you to have the latest they say that [TS]

  they they can prevent you from booting [TS]

  versions that Apple no longer trusts so [TS]

  I think what that could mean and this is [TS]

  not from PR this is just from things [TS]

  I've read on the internet what that [TS]

  probably means is like if there's a [TS]

  version of the OS that is an older [TS]

  version that that security holes were [TS]

  discovered in and somebody tries to like [TS]

  you know boot that maybe or install over [TS]

  your OS with that so they can get to [TS]

  your stuff maybe that's what it's what [TS]

  it's preventing which is a legitimate [TS]

  security concern because I can't imagine [TS]

  like if it's actually just like like [TS]

  whatever is telling it [TS]

  hey the newest version is you know ten [TS]

  point thirteen point seven or whatever [TS]

  first of all what mechanism doesn't even [TS]

  learn about that from that's one [TS]

  question but if it you know assuming [TS]

  that the secure boot Enclave protection [TS]

  unit we know whatever is enforcing this [TS]

  assuming that doesn't like the version [TS]

  you're running I can't imagine it would [TS]

  just like brick your computer like it's [TS]

  probably about preventing you from [TS]

  rolling it back it's not it's gonna die [TS]

  it's not gonna break it it's gonna it's [TS]

  gonna download the update but but so [TS]

  your computer can download updates [TS]

  without you [TS]

  approving it like I yeah like when you [TS]

  boot it will download the update before [TS]

  like as part of the initial boot [TS]

  procedures like up I'm gonna boot but [TS]

  wait a second I gotta do an update first [TS]

  and so it will download front it'll know [TS]

  from the internet what the latest [TS]

  version is it'll know from the internet [TS]

  all the information about like this is [TS]

  this is what this is the advantage slash [TS]

  whatever of having a whole other CPU [TS]

  that you know that there is a procedure [TS]

  to boot up the T to chip and that's the [TS]

  thing going to the end [TS]

  and they're looking at balls information [TS]

  downloading the software update applying [TS]

  it to your computer someone suffers but [TS]

  but your idea about the fact that it's [TS]

  not just like it has to be the latest [TS]

  but that it's only in cases where Apple [TS]

  says there's some version that we [TS]

  absolutely don't want anyone running [TS]

  that would make more sense to me because [TS]

  if they do like a point release where [TS]

  they fix like a bug in mail or something [TS]

  you know you don't want you don't want [TS]

  the thing to force that update or like [TS]

  an update from Sierra to hi Sierra like [TS]

  presumably the very last version of [TS]

  Sierra or whatever it was ten twelve six [TS]

  or whatever doesn't have any terrible [TS]

  security flaws so it wouldn't force you [TS]

  to download High Sierra when you boot it [TS]

  would only force you to update if there [TS]

  was some terrible security flaw in the [TS]

  one you had I don't know we'll see [TS]

  rather you'll see because you'll have [TS]

  this thing I mean that's the only way [TS]

  that I can figure that this makes sense [TS]

  because any other any other [TS]

  implementation of this I think would [TS]

  wreak havoc and nobody would leave it on [TS]

  especially because you mentioned [TS]

  Enterprise like the last thing [TS]

  Enterprise IT managers want is their [TS]

  computers forcing them to update their [TS]

  their OS like without them doing it or [TS]

  approving it or testing it like that's [TS]

  the last thing I prize people would want [TS]

  so I I have to imagine this is about [TS]

  like just not letting you know law [TS]

  enforcement take your computer over and [TS]

  overwrite your OS with an older version [TS]

  that they have some tool that can hack [TS]

  and get your stuff like that's that's [TS]

  probably what this is about but [TS]

  enterprise people do want you not to be [TS]

  able to boot their computers off thanks [TS]

  know disk they do want you not to be [TS]

  able to install like malware on their [TS]

  computers where people have like if [TS]

  you're running a computer lab and a [TS]

  college and you have kind of public [TS]

  computers a lot of these features appeal [TS]

  in that scenario of sort of protecting [TS]

  the computer from the outside it's just [TS]

  like the final straw is like oh and by [TS]

  the way also updates may be forced on [TS]

  you and that is you know that's that's a [TS]

  bridge too far yeah I don't expect that [TS]

  this would be used to aggressively [TS]

  update like on day zero [TS]

  I expect this would be to more [TS]

  aggressively force along the stragglers [TS]

  to the point that like Marco you're [TS]

  still on Sierra not High Sierra on most [TS]

  of your machines is that right on half [TS]

  of my machines how many machines do you [TS]

  have oh wait no I have the Mac Mini most [TS]

  of my machines [TS]

  I wish forgot about the Mac Mini it's [TS]

  just like a headless server but the Mac [TS]

  Mini still exists does its [TS]

  work actually at this point if you had [TS]

  secured boot it would probably refuse to [TS]

  start because of its age anyway I bring [TS]

  this up to say maybe had only run on a [TS]

  third of its performance because can we [TS]

  not talk about that we're definitely [TS]

  talking about that that was a huge deal [TS]

  seven days ago it was a huge deal like [TS]

  two or three weeks ago and everyone has [TS]

  been begging begging us to talk about it [TS]

  and I really have no interest in it but [TS]

  we'll talk about it anyway the point is [TS]

  I think at this point you know a couple [TS]

  of months on this may be the time when [TS]

  when a secure when a secure boot thing [TS]

  may starts to compel you or try I guess [TS]

  I was gonna say try but I guess it would [TS]

  compel you to upgrade to High Sierra but [TS]

  personally I can't imagine if I if I [TS]

  were to get an iMac Pro or you know [TS]

  whatever computers come with this in the [TS]

  future I don't think I would turn this [TS]

  from anything but full security like I [TS]

  update not day zero or day one if you [TS]

  will but I update reasonably quickly and [TS]

  I don't think that personally I would [TS]

  have any reason to crank this down and [TS]

  it sounds like the two of you guys would [TS]

  mark oh is that what you're saying that [TS]

  you would not want to run it full [TS]

  security it depends so I'm gonna have to [TS]

  do some research [TS]

  over the next negative three to six days [TS]

  but it's it's it has to be something [TS]

  more like preventing you from like [TS]

  overriding the OS with an old hacked [TS]

  version it has to be yeah you can't [TS]

  imagine it's like I can't imagine it's [TS]

  gonna like I'm gonna wake up my computer [TS]

  one day and it's gonna say nope sorry [TS]

  you can't run [TS]

  ciara anymore like that's that I that I [TS]

  don't think that's going that's gonna be [TS]

  what they do because that again that [TS]

  would just wreak havoc with so many like [TS]

  big installations and people's needs and [TS]

  everything I can't imagine so I'm gonna [TS]

  give it the benefit of the doubt and [TS]

  leave it on the default which is the [TS]

  full security and you know if I'm proven [TS]

  wrong in my research three or six days [TS]

  ago then maybe I'll change mine if I [TS]

  delete it from the show notes the [TS]

  screenshot that cable had posted but my [TS]

  recollection of it is that it is [TS]

  different than the screenshot that is on [TS]

  the Apple support document that we'll [TS]

  put in the show notes and the wording [TS]

  underneath what full security means from [TS]

  cable screenshot it was full security [TS]

  ensures that only the latest and most [TS]

  secure software can be run right it [TS]

  requires a network connection in [TS]

  software installation right so that's [TS]

  the old burdening OH [TS]

  you know only the late is the most [TS]

  secure software latest and most secure I [TS]

  mean is that just saying like the latest [TS]

  is always the most secure but latest is [TS]

  pretty unambiguous new text on Apple's [TS]

  page ensures that only your current OS [TS]

  or signed operating system software [TS]

  currently trusted by Apple can run and [TS]

  that is very different very very [TS]

  different you know so only your current [TS]

  OS meaning whatever is currently on your [TS]

  system or signed operating system [TS]

  software currently trusted by Apple and [TS]

  that's more like whether Marco was [TS]

  talking about currently trusted by [TS]

  Apple's Apple could say okay we put out [TS]

  a bump point release that is no longer [TS]

  trusted so that particular one can't run [TS]

  but any of these other 20 versions are [TS]

  all fine so maybe Apple it's changing [TS]

  its mind I mean I guess I would assume [TS]

  the one on the Apple site is the most [TS]

  up-to-date one and I would assume that [TS]

  the text changes reflect the reality of [TS]

  the future but you know as we said Marco [TS]

  will find out for us I guess and I'd [TS]

  also like to reiterate what what John [TS]

  you had said a little while ago about [TS]

  any sort of larger organization wanting [TS]

  complete and utter control over their [TS]

  machines at my work which is a 500 [TS]

  employee company I I was put on the [TS]

  blessed list that that I could install [TS]

  High Sierra but by by default you are [TS]

  not allowed to install High Sierra and [TS]

  my work is actually fairly hands-off [TS]

  with our machines like by default you [TS]

  know average users do not get [TS]

  administrator privileges but all [TS]

  developers do in and they're generally [TS]

  not too bad about giving us reasonably [TS]

  full access to our computers and yet [TS]

  despite that we are not allowed to [TS]

  install upgrades of operating systems [TS]

  without you know them having bless them [TS]

  and so on and so forth and so they're [TS]

  kind of sort of beta testing with a [TS]

  group of I don't know 10 or 20 of us [TS]

  internally of which I'm part of that but [TS]

  a friend of mine works at a very very [TS]

  large financial organization and I've [TS]

  heard through this friend that their [TS]

  computer pretty much is inoperable their [TS]

  MacBook Pro is pretty much inoperable [TS]

  unless they are connected to the [TS]

  company's VPN or the company's Wi-Fi [TS]

  like that's how stodgy these sorts of [TS]

  larger companies especially in financial [TS]

  services can get overtime is that this [TS]

  person's computer they basically can't [TS]

  get to anything on the Internet [TS]

  even on their home Wi-Fi until they've [TS]

  connected to Big Brother I mean to [TS]

  accompany the company's VPN so that they [TS]

  can be monitored I mean tracked I mean [TS]

  just taken care of it's crazy out there [TS]

  I can tell you anyway William Pierce [TS]

  writes in there's a lot of women car [TS]

  journalists these days but one blog that [TS]

  sprung to mind is at Black Flag [TS] [TS]

  and it's by Steph Schrader and Alex King [TS]

  it's a great great place for racing new [TS]

  solid coverage and they've gotten plenty [TS]

  of scoops I have not had the chance to [TS]

  check this out I've been pretty much off [TS]

  the internet all day I'm assuming one of [TS]

  the two of you did probably John yeah [TS]

  this was a but we had an ask ap question [TS]

  about you know car magazines and for [TS]

  someone's kid and I went into how all [TS]

  the car magazines are written as [TS]

  assuming that everyone who's reading it [TS]

  is dude and you know and how it's not [TS]

  really a great thing to introduce young [TS]

  readers to if you want them to avoid [TS]

  perpetuating you know sort of behavior [TS]

  that excludes people whatever but the [TS]

  question was specifically about [TS]

  magazines and I'm assuming the person [TS]

  meant paper magazines because when I see [TS]

  magazines that's what I think but [TS]

  William brings up you know good point if [TS]

  you want to look for you know a more [TS]

  modern inclusive take on whatever your [TS]

  hobby may be online is probably the [TS]

  place to do it I do [TS]

  I do read some car sites i watch more [TS]

  YouTube videos that I read car sights [TS]

  but I certainly go to Jalopnik a lot [TS]

  mostly led there by other people that I [TS]

  follow linking to cool car stories on [TS]

  Jalopnik and so yeah they have you know [TS]

  blogs and and journalists and if you're [TS]

  looking for some some kind of news [TS]

  you're looking for I looked I looked at [TS]

  this thing and there's a lot of racing [TS]

  news and I'm really not into racing but [TS]

  that's probably a better bet for finding [TS]

  new voices as they say in the automotive [TS]

  news industry we respond to this week by [TS]

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  once again that's Casper comm slash ATP [TS]

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  thank you so much for Casper for [TS]

  sponsoring our show let's do some ask [TS]

  ATP Scott Lau he'd writes in what do you [TS]

  think the odds are of a tension [TS]

  detection on Apple watch it could really [TS]

  refine race to wake display remains long [TS]

  as long as you're looking at it turns on [TS]

  with attention etc so quick recap on the [TS]

  iPhone don't call it X there is a [TS]

  feature by which if it realizes that [TS]

  you're not actively looking at the phone [TS]

  because it's using the front-facing like [TS]

  camera array if you're not looking at [TS]

  the phone it will dim itself reasonably [TS]

  quickly and if it's dimmed but still on [TS]

  it will actually turn itself to full [TS]

  brightness again once it realizes you've [TS]

  looked at it again and it's actually [TS]

  extremely cool [TS]

  and so Scots thought was hey could we [TS]

  use that same tech in the Apple watch so [TS]

  as you're looking at the Apple watch [TS]

  then it will continue to be full [TS]

  brightness it won't ever turn itself off [TS]

  until it knows that you're no longer [TS]

  looking at it at which case obviously it [TS]

  can turn itself back down or offer etc [TS]

  so my eyes like I I do think that this [TS]

  will on an infinite time scale the thing [TS]

  but I don't see it happening anytime [TS]

  soon because even though they've taken [TS]

  what was effectively a Microsoft Kinect [TS]

  and shrank it down to B and the notch in [TS]

  the iPhone 10 I don't see it becoming [TS]

  small enough to be on the Apple watch [TS]

  anytime soon much less having the [TS]

  battery power to power it but that's [TS]

  just me Marco what do you think yeah I [TS]

  guess I don't think it makes a lot of [TS]

  sense honestly because you know for all [TS]

  the reasons you said like I can't [TS]

  imagine that would have the battery [TS]

  power to be constantly scanning to see [TS]

  if you're looking at it or not and also [TS]

  for the feature of things like keeping [TS]

  the screen on for a while if you are [TS]

  looking at it again I it doesn't seem [TS]

  like it's worth the power it doesn't [TS]

  seem like they have the physical space [TS]

  to put the sensors on the front of it I [TS]

  don't think they intend for you to be [TS]

  looking at the watch without touching it [TS]

  for very long anyway alright John any [TS]

  other thoughts if it had the battery [TS]

  power to do the face detection dick [TS]

  power all the cameras and have them do [TS]

  all the things they should spend that [TS]

  battery power and having a watch face [TS]

  that never turns off I know it's [TS]

  probably different amounts but like [TS]

  that's the goal I think that's a better [TS]

  goal like to basically get to the point [TS]

  where the watch face never turns off [TS]

  using using whatever better technology [TS]

  better screens whatever they have to do [TS]

  that's what you want [TS]

  and so this in-between thing where you [TS]

  burn a lot of battery energy trying to [TS]

  be super smart about when you turn the [TS]

  screen on and off seems like a bad [TS]

  trade-off to me moving on [TS]

  max Velasco not writes in I'm in the [TS]

  market for a raid zero external SSD [TS]

  storage I'm wondering what you what you [TS]

  use and what you'd recommend I'm on a [TS]

  Thunderbolt 2 machine but I'm open to a [TS]

  backwards compatible Thunderbolt 3 Drive [TS]

  if you happen to be using one thank you [TS]

  for any advice I have precisely zero [TS]

  input on this so Marco take it away as [TS]

  mentioned seven days ago [TS]

  Tiff's iMac has had a four drive raid [TS]

  zero SSD Thunderbolt 2 enclosure for the [TS]

  last few years [TS]

  so I have I have a direct experience [TS]

  with these they're fine [TS]

  they're nothing special they tend to [TS]

  come with really loud crappy fans I [TS]

  replace the fan and hers with a much [TS]

  quieter knock to a super quiet fan and [TS]

  that was a very very good upgrade to do [TS]

  to it that didn't seem to reduce the [TS]

  life of anything at all because it's [TS]

  really just cooling the very very hot [TS]

  thunderbolt chip that's inside it's not [TS]

  really no but SSDs don't need much [TS]

  schooling themselves so it's fine it [TS]

  we've never had any problems with it [TS]

  like you know disconnecting or failing [TS]

  or anything like that but they are it is [TS]

  a fairly expensive solution a much [TS]

  better solution if I don't know what [TS]

  what Max's needs are here but if you can [TS]

  all if you can at all avoid having an [TS]

  external raid enclosure you'll be better [TS]

  off for it if you can either just get [TS]

  like one big disk of some sort or if you [TS]

  can use network storage like an ass or [TS]

  something like that like that's [TS]

  generally better it's just less hassle [TS]

  and less crap and unless you know that's [TS]

  hardware to break and maintain but if [TS]

  you still want to do this the enclosure [TS]

  we got was from owz you know mac [TS] I think it was a few hundred [TS]

  dollars maybe for just for the enclosure [TS]

  you know anything anything involving [TS]

  multiple disk enclosures with a [TS]

  thunderbolt interface it's not going to [TS]

  be cheap another option that you have is [TS]

  to use the built-in software raid in Mac [TS]

  OS I know I don't think that applies to [TS]

  a PFS yet but but that right John do you [TS]

  know what do you want to know if you can [TS]

  do software raid at all with a PFS yeah [TS]

  I don't remember I remember have the [TS]

  same vague memory as you do that there [TS]

  was a bunch of limitations I think they [TS]

  might have taken it away with AP FS but [TS]

  I'm not sure yeah anyway so if you can [TS]

  do software raid still with whatever [TS]

  your file system needs are another [TS]

  option you have if the performance of [TS]

  this won't be too bad is to just get a [TS]

  bunch of really inexpensive USB 3 [TS]

  enclosures because you can get a USB 3 [TS]

  as sd enclosure for like 15 bucks and I [TS]

  have a few of these from from my own [TS]

  computer bus-powered that's the [TS]

  important part bus back yes and bus [TS]

  powered right and because you know SSDs [TS]

  internal power so that way like you [TS]

  avoid having not only like additional [TS]

  cable clutter but also if you can [TS]

  eliminate some devices own power supply [TS]

  from your set up you eliminate a major [TS]

  source or [TS]

  failure and weirdness because those [TS]

  little like power bricks that come with [TS]

  everything are terrible like they just [TS]

  aren't very reliable they fail all the [TS]

  time [TS]

  not to mention that they're big and [TS]

  bulky and ugly so anything that can be [TS]

  bus powered is generally a gain for you [TS]

  here and because you're powering SSDs [TS]

  and not big spinning disks you should be [TS]

  looking away with that so if you can get [TS]

  away with just a handful of cheap USB [TS]

  enclosures if that will work for your [TS]

  performance and throughput needs that [TS]

  will be way cheaper and just a simpler [TS]

  setup in general but again it all [TS]

  depends on what you need if you do still [TS]

  truly need an external raid zero [TS]

  enclosure I've had totally fine luck [TS]

  with the oh do with the o WC I think [TS]

  called it the Thunder Bay mini or [TS]

  something that is it's the one that held [TS]

  specifically for two and a half inch [TS]

  drives it holds four of them [TS]

  it's Thunderbolt from what WC and it has [TS]

  a very loud fan until you put it not to [TS]

  a fan in there Joshua Rodgers writes do [TS]

  any of you use any soundproofing or [TS]

  acoustic material in the room that you [TS]

  podcast in to help with audio recording [TS]

  quality I will start I used to before I [TS]

  moved rooms on account of our [TS]

  forthcoming kid I used to use literally [TS]

  a fleece blanket that I push pinned into [TS]

  the wall behind my iMac and that was [TS]

  enough sound deadening to get the job [TS]

  done [TS]

  Marco had told me very early on that I [TS]

  was echoing quite a bit and this was [TS]

  probably during the neutral time in fact [TS]

  and something in like 2013 or there [TS]

  abouts I push pin to this blanket to the [TS]

  wall and it stayed up for about four [TS]

  years [TS]

  oh he moved rooms now we have some sort [TS]

  of soundproofing something or other that [TS]

  I think Marco you might have recommended [TS]

  that I will put a link in the show notes [TS]

  soundtracks Pro maybe I'll have to look [TS]

  through my Amazon order history it has [TS]

  the cool like swirly pattern it [TS]

  soundtracks bro no definitely not [TS]

  I probably got something considerably [TS]

  cheaper knowing me so I will put links [TS]

  to both of these things into the show [TS]

  notes and basically I have I have a [TS]

  panel of nine of these so so let me back [TS]

  up a half-step so my iMac and my desk is [TS]

  in between two two windows above the [TS]

  iMac as a panel of nine I don't know [TS]

  foot long by foot wide sound-deadening [TS]

  things and so there's basically the wall [TS]

  behind my iMac is all sound deadening [TS]

  material there's nothing on the opposite [TS]

  wall because it's far enough away not [TS]

  that this room is that big but it's far [TS]

  enough away that I don't think it really [TS]

  matters [TS]

  I wanted a link to the thumbtacks that [TS]

  you use they kept the fleece blanket on [TS]

  your wall for four years because I'm [TS]

  police blanket that I want to hold on [TS]

  the wall you know I'll use I'll use some [TS]

  terrorists case he would say pushpins [TS]

  I'll use thumbtacks to put it on the [TS]

  wall I would think within five minutes [TS]

  that thing would fall down did you use a [TS]

  hundred of them are these the world's [TS]

  best thumbtack no it was it was not a [TS]

  terribly heavy nor thick fleece blanket [TS]

  I'm sure I have a picture somewhere of [TS]

  it but I don't know if I could dig it up [TS]

  easily but it was not a very heavy [TS]

  blanket by any means it was fairly thin [TS]

  do you think you feel like you made a [TS]

  difference well Marco I mean this in the [TS]

  most respectful way possible [TS]

  Marco complained and moaned about my [TS]

  echoes and then I put that up and then [TS]

  he stopped complaining and moaning about [TS]

  my echoes so either he figured out a way [TS]

  around it that's how I show my approval [TS]

  yeah exactly [TS]

  when Marco stops complaining you know [TS]

  he's you know he's happy but anyway [TS]

  Marco tell me again what you have you [TS]

  sound treks soundtrack soundtracks DRA X [TS]

  Pro there you go my Amazon you get like [TS]

  a decent sized pack for like 40 or 50 [TS]

  bucks with like if with like I think [TS]

  like eight one by four foot sections [TS]

  something like that they also make [TS]

  larger ones if you want to do like a big [TS]

  wall you can you can get larger panels [TS]

  that are about two by five four two by [TS]

  four feet that's that I have a few of [TS]

  those behind my computer yeah so this is [TS]

  the kind of thing so it does help to [TS]

  treat the room with soft things to make [TS]

  you sound better a lot of times people [TS]

  go a little overboard with it and they [TS]

  just kind of keep going because they [TS]

  think they need it or it just looks cool [TS]

  it makes you look like a really [TS]

  professional podcaster to have sound [TS]

  deadening material you know in your [TS]

  entire office but usually you don't need [TS]

  as much of it as people use and also [TS]

  there's lots of alternatives that that [TS]

  will work just as well you're hanging a [TS]

  blanket on the wall was totally fine [TS]

  because what you basically need is for [TS]

  the room to be to be filled with as many [TS]

  soft things as possible that can avoid [TS]

  echoes [TS]

  that's what you're trying to avoid here [TS]

  is is you're not trying to insulate like [TS]

  sound insulation to like make the room [TS]

  soundproof so that people outside the [TS]

  room can't hear you and that outside [TS]

  sounds can't get in that's not what this [TS]

  is that's a different thing and that's [TS]

  and you don't do that for 50 bucks all [TS]

  we're doing here is trying to reduce the [TS]

  echoes of sound bouncing around hard [TS]

  surfaces of the room and so some places [TS]

  just don't need this like one of the [TS]

  reasons why like it's like sometimes we [TS]

  joked like when podcasters have to [TS]

  record like in our closets for some for [TS]

  some reason it sounds great [TS]

  because closets are small spaces filled [TS]

  with soft clothing so there's like [TS]

  there's no echoes that can be had if you [TS]

  think about the opposite the worst place [TS]

  you could record would be like in a [TS]

  bathroom like with with like a hard [TS]

  floor and tile walls everywhere [TS]

  especially like if you ever like moved [TS]

  out of an apartment and you you've like [TS]

  you've already packed up like the shower [TS]

  curtain and all your towels from the [TS]

  bathroom so it's just totally empty you [TS]

  notice how incredibly echoey it is with [TS]

  with no soft things in there so we're [TS]

  going for the opposite of that like you [TS]

  generally just want soft things in the [TS]

  room that doesn't have to be sound [TS]

  editing material a rug helps [TS]

  tremendously and you know just having [TS]

  blankets around like if you have like a [TS]

  like a you know a giant open hard floor [TS]

  put a blanket or a rug on it while you [TS]

  record but the best that you can do is [TS]

  as casey mention with the blanket the [TS]

  best place to put something soft is on [TS]

  whatever cert whatever wall or whatever [TS]

  else is behind the microphone because if [TS]

  you think about how you talk [TS]

  towards a microphone the first place [TS]

  that you're gonna get those echoes is [TS]

  they're gonna be bouncing off the wall [TS]

  behind the mic you know your sounds [TS]

  going to go pass the mic bounce off the [TS]

  wall behind it and then get fed back [TS]

  into the mic as an echo from the back or [TS]

  from the size or whatever else anything [TS]

  you can do to minimize sound echoing [TS]

  from right behind the mic you will see a [TS]

  large result from that it can be sounder [TS]

  material if you're looking for something [TS]

  you know more like a permanent kind of [TS]

  setup that you can hang up and just [TS]

  leave there for years and be done with [TS]

  it yeah go for something go for some [TS]

  kind of acoustic foam and honestly it [TS]

  doesn't really matter what you caustic [TS]

  foam you get there they're not very [TS]

  different all you're looking for is like [TS]

  soft squishy material to absorb the [TS]

  echoes I like the soundtracks pro [TS]

  because it looks cool has this nice [TS]

  like swirly kind of hexagon like pattern [TS]

  so that's kind of fun but you know it [TS]

  doesn't really matter you can get pretty [TS]

  much anything and pretty much any price [TS]

  and it'll work about the same a second [TS]

  thing that you should consider if this [TS]

  is a problem for you consider using a [TS]

  different microphone a lot of [TS]

  microphones that are that come highly [TS]

  recommended on like gear guides and [TS]

  stuff and how to podcast and even become [TS]

  recommended from podcasters who just [TS]

  don't have a lot of experience with with [TS]

  other microphones a lot of them are [TS]

  inexpensive large diaphragm cardioid [TS]

  condenser z' this includes things like [TS]

  the blue yeti and a whole lot of [TS]

  entry-level microphones basically if [TS]

  it's a condenser and you spent less than [TS]

  200 bucks for it it's probably one of [TS]

  these the problem with these they do [TS]

  sound very nice and crisp and they pick [TS]

  up a lot of detail in your voice but [TS]

  they also pick up like if a pin drops in [TS]

  the room like they'll pick up any [TS]

  background noise and as a result they [TS]

  also very very easily pick up echo from [TS]

  the walls if you just use a mic with a [TS]

  different pickup pattern some people say [TS]

  you have to use a dynamic mic this is [TS]

  not actually the case you have to use a [TS]

  super cardioid mic that's what you [TS]

  actually want it can be a condenser or [TS]

  dynamic it should be super cardioid or [TS]

  hyper-cardioid what you're looking at [TS]

  and I did a whole review you can listen [TS]

  to audio samples what you're looking at [TS]

  basically is the shure beta 87a that's [TS]

  what you're looking at it is about 250 [TS]

  bucks [TS]

  it's an XLR mic not a USB mic I don't [TS]

  know of any USB super cardioid podcast [TS]

  microphones if anyone knows of any [TS]

  please let me know but what this does [TS]

  the super cardioid pickup pattern [TS]

  it basically tightens and narrows the [TS]

  area from which it picks up sound so it [TS]

  will pick up a lot less sound coming [TS]

  from different directions and coming [TS]

  from further away from the mic which in [TS]

  turn will kind of inherently reduce the [TS]

  amount of echo it picks up it's also [TS]

  really nice a little reduce the amount [TS]

  of background noise it picks up like if [TS]

  somebody you know you know breaks a [TS]

  plate in the next room over like you you [TS]

  will hear a much quieter version of it [TS]

  than you would on a different pickup [TS]

  pattern because it's just the sound [TS]

  drops off further the more you go away [TS]

  from the mic so anything you can do to [TS]

  narrow that pickup pattern that will [TS]

  serve you very well in the mic and [TS]

  you won't need to do as much babying of [TS]

  the room yeah you know it's really weird [TS]

  I was using a rode podcaster for I don't [TS]

  know something like the first year that [TS]

  I was doing this with you two fine [TS]

  gentlemen and then I am now using what [TS]

  do I have I don't have the 87 I have the [TS]

  58 a is that right yes remember you [TS]

  should switch to the 87 a by the way [TS]

  yeah I guess I guess it's you sound what [TS]

  you sound good enough that I don't [TS]

  bother you about it that's the mark of [TS]

  approval it really is it really is [TS]

  tremendous the difference because right [TS]

  now you know my my mouth is within an [TS]

  inch of the pop filter not the pop [TS]

  filter but the a foam on the edge of the [TS]

  microphone and if I if I were to turn my [TS]

  mouth and maybe do something like the [TS]

  other direction it is tremendous the [TS]

  difference that that makes and if I go [TS]

  you know 180 you can barely even hear me [TS]

  it's really crazy what what a super [TS]

  cardioid super cardioid yeah and I think [TS]

  yeah the beta 58a is a supercar do a [TS]

  dynamic mic it is it is very good it's [TS]

  very good for the price it's it has a [TS]

  little it's a little bit like Bumi and [TS]

  fat in like the mid bass frequency area [TS]

  yeah it is I mean but for that for the [TS]

  price it's it's pretty good but but I do [TS]

  recommend it you know if you can if you [TS]

  have a setup that can take an XLR mic [TS]

  and you can spend whatever that it's [TS]

  like a hundred and sixty bucks for that [TS]

  save up another 80 bucks and get the 87 [TS]

  a instead it's better yeah this is a [TS]

  hundred and sixty you're right and if [TS]

  you say the 87 a is 60 more than Soviet [TS]

  John what is your situation with regard [TS]

  to sound deadening material John does [TS]

  not count John has an inexpensive large [TS]

  diaphragm condenser microphone expensive [TS]

  like 350 bucks or something wasn't it no [TS]

  well you probably I think the most it [TS]

  ever cost was 250 but still yeah you [TS]

  have the PG assure PG 42 USB it's it's [TS]

  sounds incredible it sounds very very [TS]

  good but it is an incredibly picky [TS]

  microphone for room dynamics because [TS]

  it's a what I mentioned earlier it's the [TS]

  kind of picks up like a needle dropping [TS]

  like it picks up anything [TS]

  however all the rules of this microphone [TS]

  ceased to apply in John Syracuse's [TS]

  office and I don't know why and I've [TS]

  never wanted to tell him to change [TS]

  anything because for some reason that I [TS]

  have that I cannot fathom or figure out [TS]

  he sounds perfect all the time [TS]

  he does not have any echo there's never [TS]

  any noise or his on the track any that [TS]

  although all the problems that you would [TS]

  usually get with this type of condenser [TS]

  and I bought that exact microphone to [TS]

  try in my mega review and it was [TS]

  incredibly picky for me [TS]

  but for some reason it's perfect for [TS]

  John so I don't like the rules didn't [TS]

  apply in John's office well some rules [TS]

  do I mean material for getting to this [TS]

  question the main reason I don't have [TS]

  sound deadening material is back when we [TS]

  were all buying sound foam and stuff of [TS]

  course mark I bought this worldly one [TS]

  that he was just telling you about and I [TS]

  went I'm like oh I should get that same [TS]

  sorority stuff Marco got and I went to [TS]

  the web page where they sell it and it [TS]

  was $60 and my interpretation was it's [TS]

  $60 for one rectangle and then I looked [TS]

  at how much how many rectangles Marco [TS]

  has on his balls Mike well Marco you [TS]

  know all right fine but no way in hell [TS]

  I'm in I'm spending 60 $60 times you [TS]

  know 12 to put foam on my wall and I'm [TS]

  like this is really cool sign I did some [TS]

  researching for cheaper foam but it's [TS]

  just like ya know I'm just not gonna do [TS]

  it so anyway now that I know that it is [TS]

  not $60 for one square it's $60 for what [TS]

  how many is it I think six or twelve [TS]

  it's it's enough like the $60 pack of [TS]

  the one by two sheets whatever that is [TS]

  that's enough for pretty much anybody to [TS]

  make their setup sound great yeah so [TS]

  that sounds more reasonable although [TS]

  really annoys me that the pattern [TS]

  doesn't line up if you buy all the [TS]

  squares that really annoys accent yeah [TS]

  and you and I have some of the big ones [TS]

  as I mentioned it doesn't line up on [TS]

  them either but at least with the big [TS]

  ones you have fewer seams yeah so anyway [TS]

  but I don't I still don't have the phone [TS]

  and also I won't ask Marco how he [TS]

  attached it to his wallet he's like I [TS]

  permanently stuck it on there and if I [TS]

  ever want to remove it I have to repaint [TS]

  the wall I was like yeah yeah like [TS]

  there's like there's like adhesive [TS]

  squares that they recommend that you use [TS]

  with it and I got those so each one of [TS]

  them is stuck on with something like six [TS]

  like a little like two by one inch [TS]

  adhesive square things like double side [TS]

  kind of things and yeah I'm pretty sure [TS]

  and they haven't fallen off at all which [TS]

  is great but I'm pretty sure that's [TS]

  that's a pretty permanent installation [TS]

  for the wall you should use the KC's [TS]

  thumbtacks well it's funny you bring [TS]

  that up we tried to use command strips [TS]

  on the foam that we have and they have [TS]

  all fallen over time but I think if [TS]

  memory serves I did get the adhesive [TS]

  squares that Marko recommended and then [TS]

  we put those on the back of the foam and [TS]

  then command stripped those does that [TS]

  make sense [TS]

  so it's foam adhesive squares command [TS]

  strips and that actually seems to be [TS]

  holding pretty well so far that's a good [TS]

  idea [TS]

  you can put it right over the thumbtack [TS]

  holes if you have them but but anyway as [TS]

  for as for my room early on in this [TS]

  series at someone I forget who was [TS]

  marking do you remember which one of the [TS]

  helpful audio people I'm about to talk [TS]

  about I believe it was Marcus - Paula [TS]

  yes there you go that's probably it sent [TS]

  us a bunch of advice about what we're [TS]

  doing and what he had to say about my [TS]

  mic was that he heard a lot of echo and [TS]

  he surmised that I had my monitor really [TS]

  close to my microphone and he was right [TS]

  and so the only thing I've done to make [TS]

  this room better for audio and [TS]

  podcasting as I moved my monitor farther [TS]

  away from my microphone or my mic from [TS]

  farther away from my monitor I still [TS]

  think the echo is there it's just the [TS]

  delay is slightly different the thing I [TS]

  think that's good about this room is [TS]

  like to my right is a giant bookshelf [TS]

  and bookshelves are surprisingly good [TS]

  baffles for sound because of all the [TS]

  little knobbly books you know and little [TS]

  gaps between them and behind them and [TS]

  even even my bookshelves where every [TS]

  spine is meticulously lined up it helps [TS]

  if the spines are uneven I bet it works [TS]

  even better [TS]

  this room is carpeted which also helps [TS]

  and the windows do have blinds of them [TS]

  which are also kind of wobbly but yeah [TS]

  it's nothing and and the game's really [TS]

  long my Mike and I have like tons of I [TS]

  have a double pop filter and a foam [TS]

  shield on it so I don't know I'm [TS]

  dreading changing my setup but I think I [TS]

  will eventually when I get my new [TS]

  computer and no don't a mumble mumble [TS]

  I'm gonna have to because I'm the newbie [TS]

  Marco's recommended Mike and Marcos [TS]

  recommended [TS]

  hot box with knobs and and for my [TS]

  brand-new computer and then I'll just [TS]

  that's my that's what I call those like [TS]

  you can spend $750 for a hot box with [TS]

  knobs yeah it's actually up to like nine [TS]

  hundred now that the one I like is that [TS]

  the USB pre to from sound devices like [TS]

  so this this is the box that converts [TS]

  USB to microphones [TS]

  I've tried a lot of these things there's [TS]

  lots of them that are totally fine for [TS]

  like a hundred fifty bucks but I wanted [TS]

  something that was better than totally [TS]

  fine I want some that was great and [TS]

  sound devices USB pre 2 is great it's [TS]

  the kind of thing that if you've ever [TS]

  had a problem or bad performance with [TS]

  one of the hundred $50 ones and you just [TS]

  get fed up and you're like can I just [TS]

  throw money at this problem to make it [TS]

  go away this is the answer to that to [TS]

  that question and the reason you should [TS]

  get it John is that it has amazing knobs [TS]

  like all the other ones have supposed to [TS]

  ever touch the knobs no you gotta touch [TS]

  them you know a couple times never move [TS]

  them again you feel any other microphone [TS]

  interfaces knob and you're gonna be like [TS]

  oh god my toasters better than this you [TS]

  try these knobs and you're like oh my [TS]

  god I want these knobs on everything I [TS]

  own they're so much better yeah oh my [TS]

  god I love you guys anyway I may [TS]

  eventually get something new but we'll [TS]

  see but that's that no phone we [TS]

  responsive as week bye hello fresh a [TS]

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  thank you so much - hello fresh for [TS]

  sponsoring our show so for the last few [TS]

  weeks we have had a reasonably [TS]

  significant amount of people tell us in [TS]

  various states of anger that we need to [TS]

  take Apple to task about the how iPhones [TS]

  are throttling CPU performance when the [TS]

  batteries get old and how this is horse [TS]

  crap and we really need to beat Apple up [TS]

  because apparently they think that [TS]

  people who matter listen to the show and [TS]

  guess what they don't but anyway they do [TS]

  point is people were really upset about [TS]

  this and this has been going on for [TS]

  probably about a month now or near bouts [TS]

  and I never found this to be a [TS]

  particularly interesting thing to talk [TS]

  about a particularly particularly [TS]

  interesting topic because I mean hey [TS]

  guess what as your phones get old [TS]

  they're gonna get slow that that I mean [TS]

  like I understand that that probably [TS]

  shouldn't happen that a CPU is the CPU [TS]

  is the CPU but I mean hey as stuff gets [TS]

  older it gets worse as I get older I get [TS]

  worse and so it stands to reason as [TS]

  other things get older maybe they will [TS]

  get worse too but there's been a whole [TS]

  bunch of activity about this not today [TS]

  but seven days ago exactly wherein we [TS]

  actually got some information from [TS]

  apples [TS]

  I'm gonna try to do my chief summarizer [TS]

  in chief and you guys jump in and or you [TS]