Under the Radar

◼   ► welcome to under the radar a show about

◼   ► independent app development I'm Marco

◼   ► Arment and I'm David Smith under the

◼   ► radar is never longer than 30 minutes so

◼   ► let's get started so this week we are

◼   ► talking about Swift do that lovely

◼   ► language introduced about Isis about a

◼   ► year and a half ago now two years ago

◼   ► yeah almost a year and a half yeah if I

◼   ► have a brief confession to make

◼   ► I've never written a single line of

◼   ► Swift in the last year and a half not a

◼   ► single one I think I can say the same

◼   ► thing as long as playgrounds don't count

◼   ► I wrote a few lines in a playground once

◼   ► and that was it

◼   ► beyond that I certainly have written no

◼   ► Swift code that's gone into an app yeah

◼   ► and that's I gotta say I almost feel

◼   ► guilty when I say that like it's this

◼   ► thing that feels like you know I'm a

◼   ► fairly committed Apple platform person

◼   ► like I do a lot of development here this

◼   ► is where I make my livelihood and this

◼   ► is their whole big fancy new thing that

◼   ► has in theory a variety of advantages to

◼   ► the way that I've developed things in

◼   ► objective-c but I've never really felt

◼   ► motivated to learn Swift I think that's

◼   ► because I don't see how it would make my

◼   ► apps as they are today

◼   ► any better and that's kind of a strange

◼   ► place to find myself that I think my

◼   ► apps would be but you know just the same

◼   ► using objective-c that I know so well

◼   ► but there's always in this back of my

◼   ► mind like hmm I should be learning Swift

◼   ► that would probably be better but that's

◼   ► never happened yeah I kind of feel the

◼   ► same way it's it's something that I'm

◼   ► not really against I mean there are some

◼   ► things about it I don't care for but I'm

◼   ► sure I get over them you know in

◼   ► practice once I once I was using the

◼   ► language full-time and I'm sure there

◼   ► will come a time where we will we will

◼   ► switch to it and we will start using a

◼   ► full time and it will just be normal and

◼   ► we'll just deal with it but I don't

◼   ► think the time has yet come where you

◼   ► need to switch to it if you already have

◼   ► a code base in objective-c that doesn't

◼   ► really need to be migrated for any

◼   ► particular reason or if you already have

◼   ► a lot of objective-c knowledge and and

◼   ► your primary goal is to to ship apps

◼   ► quickly and with little overhead then in

◼   ► those cases I think it does make sense

◼   ► to do what we're doing so far and it's

◼   ► just

◼   ► you know wait and see it's not that

◼   ► Swift is is never gonna be a part of our

◼   ► lives it's just that I don't think

◼   ► there's a lot of compelling reasons for

◼   ► us to adopt it yet when we you know when

◼   ► we already have is this experience and

◼   ► wisdom and and toolchains and everything

◼   ► all these things everything's built up

◼   ► around the other language that we've

◼   ► known forever yeah and it's funny I was

◼   ► also a things in preparation to what are

◼   ► the reasons why I haven't and there's

◼   ► obviously like the obvious ones if just

◼   ► like the inertia of having do it done

◼   ► Objective C for so long and knowing it

◼   ► like inside and out knowing all we're

◼   ► all the like the quirks are and all the

◼   ► problems and when I hit a weird bug I'm

◼   ► pretty good at finding them in Objective

◼   ► C if they're you know programming

◼   ► related rather than logically related

◼   ► but the thing that also makes me so

◼   ► nervous about Swift is that it keeps

◼   ► changing like every time a new version

◼   ► of Xcode comes out it seems like there's

◼   ► some new thing in Swift there's some new

◼   ► syntax there's some new ability there's

◼   ► some new approach for the way it works

◼   ► and every time I see one of those I

◼   ► think of it's like I have this moment of

◼   ► relief that wow I'm glad I haven't

◼   ► decided to start learning Swift yet

◼   ► because it seems like what I would have

◼   ► learned every time seems it's constantly

◼   ► being like deprecated going forward and

◼   ► that makes me so nervous about spending

◼   ► the time because the reality is like I

◼   ► have so little time to invest into new

◼   ► things that aren't just like actually

◼   ► working that spending time on something

◼   ► that potentially could be completely

◼   ► overcome by or not not completely is

◼   ► probably an extreme but could require me

◼   ► to go back and change the things that

◼   ► I've learned or change the code that

◼   ► I've written is very discouraging yeah

◼   ► because it seems it seems like churn to

◼   ► go through this process and you know to

◼   ► some accessory in our in our profession

◼   ► you know when when Apple changes the UI

◼   ► of the entire OS like with iOS 7 and we

◼   ► have to recreate or redo or

◼   ► reimplemented unlike it never feels

◼   ► great to be forced to to repeat work or

◼   ► to be forced to throw away something

◼   ► that works perfectly well just to do it

◼   ► some some new way that you didn't really

◼   ► want to do on the flip side of that you

◼   ► know a lot of people

◼   ► and you know myself included I love

◼   ► deleting deleting code that that is no

◼   ► longer necessary or you know like once

◼   ► there's a new ability to do something

◼   ► like a new API comes out from Apple and

◼   ► a new OS release that makes a whole

◼   ► bunch of my code obsolete

◼   ► I love deleting that old code and

◼   ► getting rid of it getting it out of my

◼   ► life and moving on using the new Apple

◼   ► API assuming it works which isn't always

◼   ► the case but usually and having less

◼   ► code demanding she like that part is

◼   ► nice a lot of programmers myself

◼   ► included also frequently get the itch to

◼   ► rewrite things in a better way and that

◼   ► sometimes that is a good idea it often

◼   ► isn't it sometimes it's just a big waste

◼   ► of time and a way to create all your all

◼   ► your bugs all over again but it

◼   ► sometimes it is a good idea but I think

◼   ► with with Swift coming in for Objective

◼   ► C programmers the the motivation is is

◼   ► less there at you know and as you said

◼   ► it is still changing a lot for most of

◼   ► its first year the tools were still

◼   ► really immature and we're still having

◼   ► lots of crashing and performance issues

◼   ► and and that seems to be resolved so far

◼   ► from from people who have written Swift

◼   ► so far who are really into it more than

◼   ► us it does seem like I've been kind of

◼   ► like paying attention to what people say

◼   ► about it what how people report like oh

◼   ► we converted a big project or we started

◼   ► that we started and a new project in

◼   ► Swift and here's how it went for us and

◼   ► in the early days those stories were

◼   ► really rough they were the only things

◼   ► that were really not compelling because

◼   ► everything was still so immature or

◼   ► unstable as time has gone on in just a

◼   ► year and a half which is pretty quick

◼   ► that has settled somewhat and and a lot

◼   ► of people are now saying ok now you can

◼   ► jump in I've done a project on Swift and

◼   ► it was fine for us so it really did I

◼   ► think now would be a safe enough time to

◼   ► jump in and it wouldn't be too

◼   ► unreasonable but again it comes back to

◼   ► you know how do we allocate our limited

◼   ► time and our limited resources and how

◼   ► much time are we willing to devote to

◼   ► messing with something that's still new

◼   ► and immature and and adapting to it as

◼   ► it changes like to me like I've always

◼   ► said in the past and we'll talk about

◼   ► server-side stuff I'm sure many times

◼   ► but I've always said in the past that my

◼   ► server-side stuff I want to be very

◼   ► conservative with especially as you get

◼   ► lower down the application level stacks

◼   ► so if you you know if you want to try

◼   ► out a new you know Web API

◼   ► cool whatever you know a new new

◼   ► application-layer thing as you go down

◼   ► the stack I don't want to be running a

◼   ► cutting-edge Linux distribution I want

◼   ► to be running a very conservative OS I

◼   ► want to be running a very conservative

◼   ► database you know all like as you get

◼   ► that low level with like you know the

◼   ► data layer and the infrastructure layer

◼   ► of these things I don't want to be on

◼   ► the cutting edge of anything there

◼   ► because the cutting edge is where you

◼   ► get bugs and instability and and you hit

◼   ► limitations as you move up the stack I

◼   ► feel like you have more tolerance for

◼   ► things like that like for risk in those

◼   ► areas for me the programming language

◼   ► that you're writing your code in is

◼   ► pretty low level and with Swift you at

◼   ► least have the benefit of you can mix it

◼   ► in slowly and that is ver that it was

◼   ► very wise of Apple to do there are some

◼   ► downsides to like things like they

◼   ► couldn't make as clean of a jump as they

◼   ► as they might have wanted to because

◼   ► they have maintained backwards

◼   ► compatibility with Objective C libraries

◼   ► and stuff but for the most part I think

◼   ► that was wise because we can kind of

◼   ► wade in slowly when we decide that's the

◼   ► right move but at the same time you know

◼   ► because of my conservatism in in those

◼   ► low-level things I don't really see a

◼   ► huge reason to jump in yet because I

◼   ► don't want to be programming with a

◼   ► cutting-edge language and not only for

◼   ► instability reasons and for for having

◼   ► to relearn things as they change things

◼   ► over time not only for those reasons but

◼   ► also right now we don't really know what

◼   ► will eventually be known as idiomatic

◼   ► Swift an idiomatic Swift API design we

◼   ► don't know those things yet those are

◼   ► still being worked out a lot of people

◼   ► and and I'm not one and I don't think

◼   ► you are one either a lot of people love

◼   ► being a part of that process of figuring

◼   ► out what the idioms should be and and

◼   ► creating helping to create them and

◼   ► helping to work out how things and

◼   ► helping to experiment with like oh maybe

◼   ► we should design api's in this way maybe

◼   ► the right way to use the language is

◼   ► this I am NOT into that at all for me I

◼   ► would rather let that let the smarter

◼   ► people than me who care a lot more about

◼   ► language design and who are better at it

◼   ► than I am

◼   ► let them figure out the idioms and the

◼   ► language of design and the API design

◼   ► and then I want to just take the

◼   ► finished product and master one thing

◼   ► that they have figured out over time and

◼   ► apply that into building apps that I

◼   ► want so it's like you know I want to

◼   ► closer to the product building side not

◼   ► the messing with languages side if that

◼   ► makes sense yeah cuz I mean the process

◼   ► of it sounds vaguely interesting like

◼   ► sort of feel oh let's be let's be part

◼   ► of the process and you know it seems

◼   ► like this Swift team is very responsive

◼   ► and that all those things on that side

◼   ► seem to be very encouraging in that

◼   ► regard if you that were something you

◼   ► were interested in but it's just like

◼   ► effort going into something that isn't

◼   ► making my apps better isn't making my

◼   ► customers happier isn't helping me ship

◼   ► something more impressive it's like it's

◼   ► going into something that is kind of

◼   ► intellectually cool but it kind of feels

◼   ► it's like the difference between someone

◼   ► who is in academic versus like who has I

◼   ► think I'll probably make some more

◼   ► practical living like I'm very glad

◼   ► there are people who enjoy that a more

◼   ► academic side of computer science who

◼   ► come up with the the new things and push

◼   ► boundaries and go down ten sort of dead

◼   ► end roads before they find the thing

◼   ► that is actually the thing that we're

◼   ► gonna want to use in practice like I'm

◼   ► really glad those people exist but it's

◼   ► a very different thing than with the

◼   ► skills and the experience and the time

◼   ► allocation that you would want to do if

◼   ► you actually have to ship something and

◼   ► ultimately especially if that thing at

◼   ► the you ship at the end of the day has

◼   ► to like make your living then the last

◼   ► thing you want to be doing is playing

◼   ► around with stuff that isn't quite baked

◼   ► or isn't quite to the point that it's

◼   ► like it's this is exactly the way you do

◼   ► it because I think in Objective C it's

◼   ► very established at this point it's an

◼   ► old enough language and it's use has

◼   ► been so focused in by Apple and its

◼   ► benefited from the fact that I think

◼   ► Apple is the only people who sort of

◼   ► typically use it in a way that like

◼   ► language like Java or C has so many

◼   ► different uses that it's doesn't quite

◼   ► have that same heavy hand that Apple I

◼   ► think has been able to bring to it where

◼   ► as they've improved and changed the

◼   ► syntax and the details of objective-c

◼   ► like it is now very finely tuned to go

◼   ► along with cocoa and it to go along with

◼   ► iOS and to go along with all of the

◼   ► things that go into building for apples

◼   ► platforms that it's very straightforward

◼   ► like there is probably one way to write

◼   ► most you know sort of most functions in

◼   ► most code and once you learn it and once

◼   ► good at it then you know you're doing

◼   ► the right thing and the process of

◼   ► letting that for Swift just sounds like

◼   ► kind of scary until that thing settles

◼   ► down and so I'm not really sure what's

◼   ► ultimately gonna get me to learn Swift

◼   ► like I was thinking about it what could

◼   ► Apple do it obviously are doing all the

◼   ► right things on the marketing side of

◼   ► saying like this is the hot new thing

◼   ► all their sample code is in or most of

◼   ► their samples code is in Swift to WTC

◼   ► all the session videos all the code on

◼   ► the slides is in Swift like they're

◼   ► pushing it as hard as they can from a

◼   ► marketing perspective but my gut says

◼   ► until they come out with something that

◼   ► says you can only interact with this

◼   ► platform or interact with this library

◼   ► in Swift I probably won't learn it

◼   ► that's just so that's just the practical

◼   ► reality like I'd almost wondered if when

◼   ► they were announcing things like the

◼   ► watch or the TV if at some point they

◼   ► would say this is a swift only platform

◼   ► and architect like the runtime for it or

◼   ► the libraries for it - those types of

◼   ► things in such a way that say like this

◼   ► is the only language that it's going to

◼   ► work and if they did that obviously like

◼   ► I'd have to learn I mean it's sort of

◼   ► like with the TV OS where you can write

◼   ► apps natively or in the TV ml like

◼   ► markup language if it said oh we're only

◼   ► gonna do T the TV ml stuff then like

◼   ► okay if I want to do a TV app I would

◼   ► have learned that but it seems like it's

◼   ► probably only going to come out of

◼   ► necessity rather than out of just like

◼   ► the intrinsic desire right yeah I mean

◼   ► at some point they are probably going to

◼   ► have swift only API is in the same way

◼   ► that there are objective-c only api's

◼   ► now and originally you could you know

◼   ► you could write in C if you wanted to

◼   ► you could write a lot of Mac apps only

◼   ► and see it in the olden days that's how

◼   ► all of them were written and you know

◼   ► over time Java C came in and and there

◼   ► are there have been to see only api's so

◼   ► over time there will be Swift only api's

◼   ► eventually you know as Apple add new new

◼   ► api's to things but that doesn't

◼   ► happened yet and even internally Swift

◼   ► is still so young that even internally

◼   ► Apple is hardly using it for anything so

◼   ► if they can't even work it into their

◼   ► workflow in in mass yet then I think

◼   ► that shows that we are not yet to the

◼   ► and we're not close yet to the level

◼   ► where it's a requirement for everybody

◼   ► to use that being said you know I think

◼   ► if you're starting out fresh if you

◼   ► don't know how to program it or if you

◼   ► only have a little bit of programming

◼   ► knowledge so far orbs have C knowledge

◼   ► so far and you and you're looking to

◼   ► expand your knowledge it's starting now

◼   ► by all means do that in Swift like it

◼   ► doesn't I don't think it makes a lot of

◼   ► sense to learn Objective C from scratch

◼   ► now now that Swift is coming up and and

◼   ► being you know being the hotness

◼   ► although that being said I think it's

◼   ► very likely that any any iOS app will

◼   ► probably you will probably need to know

◼   ► some you have to see at some point to do

◼   ► something similar to how Objective C

◼   ► programmers generally like you can get

◼   ► along pretty well most of the time but

◼   ► occasionally you have to call a C

◼   ► function or you have to know how C works

◼   ► enough to use some some API that is C

◼   ► only so new programmers should

◼   ► definitely start with Swift I would say

◼   ► just because you you generally don't

◼   ► want to start with something that is on

◼   ► its way out long term you want to start

◼   ► with something that is going to be as

◼   ► useful as long as possible yeah and I

◼   ► think the funny thing is like I know

◼   ► enough Swift at this point that I can

◼   ► read it but I can't write it because I

◼   ► was like often I'll you know searching

◼   ► on Stack Overflow and I'll find an

◼   ► answer to something that I was

◼   ► struggling with and the answers written

◼   ► in Swift and so I need to work out how

◼   ► it works and so at this point I know it

◼   ► enough to be like the it cert but it's a

◼   ► you know it just enough to be like

◼   ► read-only but I couldn't ever create it

◼   ► out of nothing and I think if you're new

◼   ► to some things like your goal is

◼   ► probably going to be to learn Swift well

◼   ► enough that you can write your programs

◼   ► in it and program in it but then no

◼   ► objective-c at least well enough that

◼   ► you can read it and understand what's

◼   ► going on with all the crazy square

◼   ► brackets and the general kind of

◼   ► structure of it but that's probably all

◼   ► you'll ever need to actually you know in

◼   ► practical use right exactly and and

◼   ► there are certain things about Swift too

◼   ► like it isn't it isn't a guarantee that

◼   ► if you like objective-c that you will

◼   ► like Swift it is it is a different style

◼   ► of language it is not objective-c with

◼   ► pointers removed like that that isn't it

◼   ► it it is not like what all people were

◼   ► saying before Swift was unveiled it was

◼   ► like oh just just making

◼   ► to see without the see and that is even

◼   ► how Apple introduced it on this on the

◼   ► keynote slide but that really isn't what

◼   ► it is at all it really is more like a a

◼   ► modern reinterpretation of C++ and so

◼   ► this is going to mesh better with some

◼   ► people than others for me honestly I

◼   ► don't like a lot of it a lot of what I

◼   ► know of it at least so far and again I

◼   ► haven't used it in a project yet so this

◼   ► could change as I use it but a lot of

◼   ► the things that that are some of its

◼   ► more advanced features like generics I

◼   ► don't think I will ever use most of that

◼   ► stuff you know there's this is going to

◼   ► kind of gel better with some people in

◼   ► others and that might influence what how

◼   ► early you want to jump into it because

◼   ► for me it hasn't done much for me and

◼   ► and it it doesn't really appeal to me as

◼   ► strongly as as some other changes would

◼   ► have or may have then I'm in less of a

◼   ► rush but if you're the kind of person

◼   ► who you enjoy those kind of language

◼   ► features that it's adding or you enjoy

◼   ► the kind of formalism that it that it

◼   ► imposes that wasn't there before then by

◼   ► all means jump in you know it's but

◼   ► that's not going to be true of everybody

◼   ► and I think that's okay yeah and I think

◼   ► it's like I have gradually gotten better

◼   ► about having the gate like the Swift's

◼   ► guilt of having that feeling like oh I

◼   ► really should you'd be learning this and

◼   ► it's likely understand it's like at some

◼   ► point I'm sure it's in my future I don't

◼   ► know when that is it's it's the role

◼   ► it's gonna play and my future is also

◼   ► going to depend on where Apple takes

◼   ► their platforms and what platforms and

◼   ► opportunities make the most sense for my

◼   ► business like you know I don't know like

◼   ► iOS is relatively young and it's also

◼   ► relatively old like seven years or so

◼   ► for a platform is getting to a point

◼   ► that you start to wonder you know is

◼   ► something new coming along that is going

◼   ► to be you know sort of overtake it

◼   ► because you know very few things in

◼   ► technology seem to last more than 10 or

◼   ► 15 years and so we're at least sort of

◼   ► towards the middle if not the tail end

◼   ► of except of this you know this way then

◼   ► you sort of keep your eye out for what's

◼   ► which platform and what opportunity is

◼   ► going to be the next big thing because

◼   ► as we were saying last week about yeah

◼   ► but you know market opportunities and

◼   ► and you know how to how you can take

◼   ► advantage of a market that's like on its

◼   ► boom time and then how quickly that

◼   ► window Falls

◼   ► as it gets more crowded it's the same

◼   ► thing with with languages and

◼   ► technologies like if you can get in

◼   ► relatively early two things now again

◼   ► again this is a balance between like

◼   ► conservatism and stability versus you

◼   ► know how cool it is to try new things

◼   ► and whether whether you're the kind of

◼   ► person who loves just trying new

◼   ► languages for the sake of trying them

◼   ► and and you know or whether you're more

◼   ► kind of product focused like me and

◼   ► David here but I think there's a similar

◼   ► kind of window with technologies where

◼   ► like as I said like this is you can tell

◼   ► that this is big this is the beginning

◼   ► of the end of yet to see and it's going

◼   ► to be a long way down it's gonna think

◼   ► we're gonna it's gonna be here for a

◼   ► while yeah we're not talking five years

◼   ► we're talking at least ten that is still

◼   ► gonna be around and still be relevant I

◼   ► mean look at how long I mean look I just

◼   ► said like you know see function still

◼   ► exists that we still call routinely for

◼   ► most efficacy apps and that those have

◼   ► been there since the you know since the

◼   ► beginning of core foundation which was

◼   ► what in the late 80s I mean it's gonna

◼   ► be at least until Apple replaces their

◼   ► fundamental like OS stress structure

◼   ► probably or something like that because

◼   ► the Apple isn't gonna rewrite all their

◼   ► apps unless they absolutely have to

◼   ► right and all the foundation classes I

◼   ► mean Swift is still switch has has its

◼   ► own you know strings and it's it's own

◼   ► arrays but there's so many things in

◼   ► Foundation and networking and IO and

◼   ► graphics all these things that that

◼   ► Swift is still calling the system

◼   ► Objective C and C api's to do those

◼   ► things so it's not like they threw it

◼   ► entire stack in the entire API you're

◼   ► just writing things in a new front-end

◼   ► language it's not like that whole stack

◼   ► is gonna go away in two years or five

◼   ► years or even ten years I think that's

◼   ► unlikely

◼   ► anyway we are sponsored this week by our

◼   ► friends at NS screencast and a

◼   ► screencast features short focused

◼   ► screencasts on iOS development every

◼   ► week you're going to find a new

◼   ► fantastically produced episode that will

◼   ► help you build and enhance your

◼   ► development skills now I've been looking

◼   ► at these for this past week since they

◼   ► came to us with this have you look these

◼   ► to David yeah yeah these are great the

◼   ► production value on these is really

◼   ► really high and they're what I like

◼   ► about them is that they're short like

◼   ► the idea is it's just one short episode

◼   ► a week and you just keep up with it

◼   ► and you you can kind of keep up on new

◼   ► technologies you can learn new things

◼   ► but it's not you don't have to jump in

◼   ► and watch like a 45 minute conference

◼   ► video just to keep up with what's going

◼   ► on or to learn something new it's a nice

◼   ► overview with examples and everything

◼   ► the production quality I think is great

◼   ► have you seen one that that you liked

◼   ► yeah I mean I love I've actually

◼   ► speaking of what we've been talking

◼   ► about it and watching a little bit of

◼   ► the ones about Swift just to kind of

◼   ► keep an eye on what's going on there

◼   ► because like we said it's not something

◼   ► I'm at the level where I want to spend a

◼   ► lot of time on it but it's really

◼   ► helpful to just be able to sit down and

◼   ► watch a short like 10 15 minute video to

◼   ► get a sense of like what are the all

◼   ► these fancy keywords and things I keep

◼   ► hearing people talk about and so I can

◼   ► sit down and watch you know what's new

◼   ► in sort of Swift 2 or Swift new Swift

◼   ► optionals they're all the kind of these

◼   ► things that are totally new and get a

◼   ► very short amount of time understand

◼   ► what's happening without you know sort

◼   ► of sitting there and just going through

◼   ► the documentation myself and so that

◼   ► found that to be really helpful you can

◼   ► watch these videos on the web on iOS or

◼   ► you can even they also have a TV OS app

◼   ► they they're already in the Apple TV you

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◼   ► all right and the last thing I wanted to

◼   ► talk about briefly with Swift I thought

◼   ► would be kind of an interesting I mean

◼   ► it's the best way to call it as a

◼   ► thought experiment is I was recently

◼   ► trying to think through if in the

◼   ► limited amount of time I have to learn

◼   ► something if I would be better off it's

◼   ► putting that time and energy into

◼   ► learning Swift and in you essentially

◼   ► embracing the future of iOS or

◼   ► diversifying and learning modern Android

◼   ► development and when I've sort of posed

◼   ► that question to myself the answer

◼   ► immediately wasn't obvious because I

◼   ► think about it in Swift I'm like okay

◼   ► it's the future of the platform and

◼   ► that's better

◼   ► you know I've you know I'm very

◼   ► committed to iOS that's where I make the

◼   ► majority of my living but it also means

◼   ► that I'm tied in to like you know one

◼   ► basket like I'm putting all of my apps

◼   ► all my eggs into that one basket and

◼   ► there's part of me that wonders if would

◼   ► I be better off if

◼   ► instead I like took that energy of

◼   ► learning something new and put it into

◼   ► learning Android in the end I'm

◼   ► skeptical if I actually ever would

◼   ► because it's so hard to think about

◼   ► developing for a platform that I don't

◼   ► use on a regular basis but I think my

◼   ► gut says at the end of the day I would

◼   ► actually probably be more prudent for me

◼   ► to know both iOS and Android then to

◼   ► know iOS and then iOS plus Swift and

◼   ► sort of as I know it now yeah I think it

◼   ► really depends I mean obviously I think

◼   ► you can learn Swift more easily than you

◼   ► can learn Android because you are still

◼   ► on the same platform calling it to most

◼   ► of the same api's and everything so I

◼   ► think it's Swift would be an easier

◼   ► transition also Swift would eventually

◼   ► replace your objective-c

◼   ► slot in your mind you know like so it

◼   ► wouldn't you wouldn't it wouldn't be

◼   ► like an additional thing that you that

◼   ► you'd have to decide where to spend your

◼   ► time between on an ongoing basis it

◼   ► would be kind of like a one-time big

◼   ► transition over you know six months or

◼   ► whatever however long it would take you

◼   ► to really like master it and really be

◼   ► doing it full-time but Android of course

◼   ► opens up way more market share I mean if

◼   ► you're if you have a handful of apps

◼   ► well you have more than a handful but

◼   ► suppose somebody has a normal number of

◼   ► apps

◼   ► yep support and and and they have to

◼   ► choose whether to you know convert all

◼   ► their existing apps from Java C to Swift

◼   ► or port them to a new platform obviously

◼   ► that the right move there B to Portland

◼   ► a new platform because the customers

◼   ► don't care what language your app is

◼   ► written in so you wouldn't get any

◼   ► benefit on the customer side by

◼   ► converting to Swift it's more of like an

◼   ► investment in your own long-term ongoing

◼   ► education long term craft you know long

◼   ► term time savings for yourself assuming

◼   ► Swift will save you time in the long run

◼   ► which I think it probably will over time

◼   ► but we don't know that yet really so

◼   ► it's a question I mean these are this is

◼   ► a great thought experiment I this is one

◼   ► reasons why I wanted the podcast with

◼   ► you because I you are so good at coming

◼   ► up with these these crazy ideas because

◼   ► it isn't that crazy like if you think

◼   ► about it going on to a new platform is

◼   ► probably a better idea than relearning

◼   ► the the language on the platform you're

◼   ► already on

◼   ► that being said if you specialize in one

◼   ► of these areas if you specialize and you

◼   ► say you know I'm gonna just be really

◼   ► really good at making iOS apps and I and

◼   ► then and that way you know to do what

◼   ► you do to be able to try out a whole

◼   ► bunch of ideas to be able to make things

◼   ► make new apps quickly and deploy into

◼   ► the store quickly if you if you get

◼   ► really really good at that one thing

◼   ► versus if you if you spread your

◼   ► knowledge out into into a more broad

◼   ► toolset really so you're able to make

◼   ► iOS apps and Android apps and maybe

◼   ► after something else maybe Mac apps

◼   ► maybe web apps and you know if you

◼   ► spread it out and get more wide like

◼   ► that I feel like that might be harder

◼   ► for one person to be very productive and

◼   ► very successful for themselves because

◼   ► they're there's so much overhead

◼   ► involved in in dealing with these

◼   ► different ecosystems different platforms

◼   ► different languages different api's I

◼   ► feel like you can be better specializing

◼   ► in one and being able to just really

◼   ► crank out high volume work on one rather

◼   ► than spreading yourself out very wide to

◼   ► be able to do a wider variety of things

◼   ► does that make sense yeah and I think

◼   ► ultimately that's probably miss the

◼   ► reality if that's where I am that's

◼   ► where I have been for the last year and

◼   ► a half since this was it would even be

◼   ► sort of a thought experiment that could

◼   ► exist is ultimately for me and my

◼   ► business to run I have to be

◼   ► extraordinarily productive in one thing

◼   ► and should be in a true expert and be

◼   ► able to really you know if I have an

◼   ► idea for an app to be able to build it

◼   ► very quickly and for me right now that's

◼   ► be writing you know iOS apps in

◼   ► objective-c like that's something that I

◼   ► can really crank out just from by the

◼   ► virtue of having so much experience with

◼   ► it and I think until such time as doing

◼   ► that thing having that expertise and

◼   ► having that sort of finely honed of a

◼   ► skill

◼   ► ceases to be the thing that I need to do

◼   ► and it becomes like okay now I should I

◼   ► need to diversify I need to go somewhere

◼   ► else like it isn't working on iOS

◼   ► anymore that's probably where I'll

◼   ► continue to go and but in this you know

◼   ► this is for the same reasons that I

◼   ► haven't learned Swift is probably the

◼   ► same reasons that I haven't learned

◼   ► Android it's that same thing of it's

◼   ► like I like and it seems to work well to

◼   ► be a true master of one thing and to

◼   ► drive that you know sort of driving

◼   ► perfect your art in craft of doing that

◼   ► one thing is probably better than

◼   ► becoming a complete generalist but being

◼   ► sort of some more superficial in all the

◼   ► different areas and this is obviously

◼   ► currently coming from the perspective of

◼   ► being independent like if you work in a

◼   ► bigger company you may have to be a

◼   ► generalist and be working in all these

◼   ► different platforms and areas because

◼   ► that's just what your boss tells you to

◼   ► do but because my boss doesn't tell me

◼   ► to do anything

◼   ► I came able to sort of go with whatever

◼   ► makes sense for me right and that's it

◼   ► and I think it makes sense for big

◼   ► companies to diversify because you know

◼   ► when you look at the way big companies

◼   ► structure their engineering departments

◼   ► you don't usually have one person who's

◼   ► in charge of five different platforms of

◼   ► apps and they're the only ones working

◼   ► on them usually you have employees who

◼   ► were specialized and so the whole

◼   ► department might be able to be more

◼   ► broad and have an app for iOS and an app

◼   ► for Android and even look at Windows

◼   ► Phone or Blackberry or whatever else

◼   ► comes along but each individual person

◼   ► to maximize their efficiency is usually

◼   ► only doing one of those things you know

◼   ► it makes sense for companies to be able

◼   ► to afford to be more broad but for

◼   ► individuals to maximize what you can do

◼   ► I think it makes the most sense for

◼   ► individuals to be specialized yeah and I

◼   ► think that's sort of where we're just

◼   ► canned up good end up for today's

◼   ► discussion that I think Swift ism is a

◼   ► powerful useful tool that I'm glad

◼   ► exists and glad Apple is pushing the

◼   ► platform forward on but I don't expect

◼   ► to use it anytime soon I'm sure both of

◼   ► us will use it eventually and it might

◼   ► even be faster than we think it might

◼   ► even be like next year but I'm I'm

◼   ► certainly not in any rush to start doing

◼   ► it right now but that's fine

◼   ► yeah and I think that's probably where

◼   ► we'll end it for today thanks for

◼   ► listening everyone please tell your

◼   ► friends about the show help us spread

◼   ► the word recommend us an overcast and

◼   ► we'll see you next week see you next

◼   ► week