Under the Radar 5: Managing Feedback
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welcome to under the radar show about
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independent iOS development I'm Marco
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Arment and I'm David Smith under the
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radar is never longer than thirty
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minutes so let's get started so today
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what we wanted to talk about is the way
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in which we manage and deal with getting
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feedback on our products on our apps
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both in terms of from customers but I
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think one of the things that I really
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wanted to unpack a little bit is the way
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that we do we handle feedback when
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products are in the earlier stages so
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things like beta testing or early
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interactions with customers because some
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of the things that I found really
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complicated when I'm developing an app
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or developing a major update is I will
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have in my mind a vision for what I want
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that update to do what though what I
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want the app to do and I kind of am
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working towards that I'm working towards
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that but at in this early sort of like
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embryonic state it's only in my head and
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in the little prototypes and the little
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bits of code that I'm building and
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something significant though happens the
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first time you ever show it to someone
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else even beyond just telling someone
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the idea but when you actually show them
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something and you give them something to
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react to react to the way that you think
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about your the app seems to change for
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myself because suddenly it has their
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feedback their suggestions their ideas
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start to be kind of mixed in and muddled
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along with mine and so something that
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I've learned is that I have to be really
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really careful about how I get that
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feedback at what point I get that
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feedback and the way in which I sort of
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manage it because what I don't want to
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do is take too much feedback too quickly
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and kind of lose that vision for what I
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want to do where I want the app to be or
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what I want the update to be and so it's
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something that I it's a weird discipline
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that I think you kind of have to learn
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and I was curious though if you've had a
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similar set of experiences how do you go
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about kind of pulling in that feedback
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during early development I will usually
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you know ask close friends for input on
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certain basic decisions about it basic
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feature decisions how things might be
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structured what features might need to
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be necessary or unnecessary and then I
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I've recently in recent years gotten
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of medium-sized private betas for me
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that the private beta is extremely
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useful and I've done a number of sizes
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of betas I first you know in the early
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days of overcast I was doing a beta of
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like I think like 20 people
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I've also since then done betas with 800
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people because test flight allowed you
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to do 1,000 now it's actually 2,000 but
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so that I did like 800 people on a beta
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that was like I basically had a public
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signup form and just without that almost
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anybody in more recently I've done much
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smaller babies going back to that
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original size so if like 20 to 40 people
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again and what I found is that the the
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quality of the feedback doesn't actually
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seem to change significantly with the
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size of the beta and which is
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counterintuitive but it seems like you
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can show the app to a relatively small
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number of people and you'll pretty much
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get all the feedback you need from a
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small group and and you know maybe it
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maybe not a small group of like two but
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10 or 20 people if they're actually
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gonna use it and give you feedback which
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is a separate point but if they're
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actually gonna use and give you feedback
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you don't need that many people involved
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in the group now the feedback you get it
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tends to be really focused or really
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heavily weighted towards upfront
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feedback right the very first time
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somebody uses a beta because and I don't
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know if other people do this but I do
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this where if somebody gives me a beta I
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will usually take a lot of time going
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through the app that very first time and
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giving pretty detailed feedback to them
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but after that first time as more
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updates come in I very rarely ever take
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that amount of time again unless I have
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you know spot an obvious but then I can
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you know screenshot a tenant's them
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whatever but general feedback about
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about a beta or about an app I usually
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it's usually front loaded and I found
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that to be the case with most of my
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testers as well so what I will usually
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do is if I can I will have a few new
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testers in every group and test flight
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allows you to see who among the group
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didn't install the latest few version
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like it'll tell you the last version
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each person installed so if I see some
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of my testers losing interest you know
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like if they if they just don't install
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the updates or if the last IP they
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installed was like five builds ago I'll
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just quietly remove them from the
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list because and it's no hard feelings
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you know his I do that office I always
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thought about this all the time because
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I lose interest or I don't have time in
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that in that month or whatever so I
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usually will cut people who who kind of
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aren't using it and you know no hard
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feelings lots a lot of times are my
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friends I don't I don't even you know
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doesn't doesn't matter no hard feelings
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and then I will add a few new people
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every time because it allows me to get
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that that initial impression like
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somebody's first impression of this app
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it allows me to have that ongoing
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throughout the process rather than
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showing it all to the same people right
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up front and never bring any new people
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in along the way so I've only recently
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started doing beta testing properly at
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all I would say like the most recent
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update I did for pedometer plus plus was
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the first time I'd ever done a big
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update our big beta test before I
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launched something big and you know it's
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the before that it had only really been
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I would Institute - I would have it
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running on my my own phone maybe my
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wife's maybe a few like a one or two
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other people and honestly and then on a
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lot of testing devices and I'd never had
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that experience of having this big kind
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of like wide like I did a similar type
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of thing like I just said anybody who
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wants to beta test pedometer plus plus
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let me know and it went to test flight
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and I put them all in and I had this an
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interesting thing that was sort of like
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similar to your experience where you get
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this big wave of comments in this big
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wave of feedback early on and then it
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sort of dies down and then actually I
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found is you ended up with another wave
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like a week later with sort of like the
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huh now that I've been using it for a
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while here's like some other thoughts
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and I would say that I had a very
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similar kind of experience to you
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insofar as there's only a certain number
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amount of feedback was actually helpful
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and like beyond that it you start to get
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a lot more repeats you start to get a
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lot more tangential things but like at
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its core what I found helpful in the
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beta test was validating a that the app
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works and is functional in the way that
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I need it to be and then to its
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validating that it's a good idea that
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people are like I'm not getting to like
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what this doesn't make any sense or
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people who have used the app before and
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going to this version are like this
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doesn't make you know you're totally
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breaking the thing that made the app
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good before because I think those are
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the things that I find out
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struggle with as myself because I have
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been working on if you see I've been
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working on an update for for several
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months my experience with the app at
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that point becomes almost exclusively
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the new version of the app and not what
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the existing version in the App Store
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is and I can tend to lose sight of the
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distance that I'm creating between those
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two things because I never go back to
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all right other than for like my final
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acceptance testing like I won't go back
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to the App Store download the version
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and run that for a few days like that's
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just not typically the way I'd do it
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because obviously I'm constantly running
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development builds on my own machine and
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the feedback that I got was kind of that
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was most helpful is when I have someone
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who's like so I used the old version
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yesterday and I used the new version
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today and this felt weird by going from
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there to there and like those types of
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feedback are things that are really hard
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for me to do because like I said I have
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this whole new vision for the app I've
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imagined and built features around this
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whole new thing and that's what I'm used
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to and months later like sometimes the
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weirdest one is when you go back to the
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App Store version you're like what is
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this like I can't believe nothing and
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you've not even necessary like oh I
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can't believe this shipped but like whoa
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this is different like this functions in
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a different way this has lots of other
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issues and so that was something that I
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learned from this feedbacks like look at
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these little like huh this was weird
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coming from that and that's helpful both
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in terms of from a development
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perspective but then also from in terms
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of what questions are my beta testers
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going to have about the app
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what's weird to them what's new to them
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and then when I take that feedback I can
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structure my documentation or my
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remember like release notes or things to
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be like if you're coming from the old
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version to the new version you might
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find this weird if you find this weird
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this is the answer to your question but
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that's something that I was never able
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to do before I was able to find test
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flight like I have a broader audience
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and something that I definitely now I
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think will use going forward
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whereas before I always view test light
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it's like oh it's beta testing it's just
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like making sure that there's no
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Crashers this making sure there's not a
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lot of things but understanding customer
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perspective changes from the old to the
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new was really helpful
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but even when starting out new I mean
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the the initial overcast beta I did 41.0
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before the app is out was incredibly
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because when you're developing an app
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and you're only using it yourself you
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know like like you mentioned I do the
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same thing where like I'll use it myself
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for like you know months and and as soon
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as I can get it running on my phone
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that'll be I lose it myself full time
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and when you're developing the app
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yourself you know how to use it and you
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know what you did so everything makes
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sense to you and when you first show it
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to beta testers especially for a 1.0
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where they are not familiar with the app
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before the the most valuable perspective
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I got was what doesn't make sense or
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what is being misunderstood from what I
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intended and I made tons of interface
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improvements and tons of changes during
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that initial test you know I thought
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that a beta test would just be like oh
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just let me know if anything crashes or
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breaks and then I'll ship it in a few
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weeks it turned out to be months long
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because everybody gave really good
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feedback about you know this doesn't
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really make sense or I don't understand
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what this is and and the app I
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dramatically improved the app it was
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almost like shipping at version 2.0 you
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know we're headed than shipping 1.0
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because I had such great feedback just
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by asking people and again you don't
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need this was only a group like 20
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people it doesn't need to be a big group
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it just needs to be people who aren't
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you because you you get everything you
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did because you did it and you designed
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it and as soon as you show anybody else
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you immediately will see the flaws in
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what you did because you will see them
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either struggling to to understand what
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you did or misinterpreting things or
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missing entire big features because they
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just don't see them or they don't they
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don't see why they would need them or
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something and it's great like my effects
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panel in overcast look totally different
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when when I sipped the 1.0 beta the very
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first beta voice boost didn't even exist
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by that name it was actually a boost
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slider and it had four different modes
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and and and smart speed was you know it
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was there but everything was kind of
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rearranged differently and and over time
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and the the wording that the labels were
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all different and over that beta I was
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able to really refine that panel reduce
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voice boost down to either an honor and
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off which was actually it's it was at
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just I realized happy to development you
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know actually I always just leave it the
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strong a setting because that's the best
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so obviously let me the other ones and
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just make it the strongest setting and
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and it you know stuff like that would
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reduce user confusion and the beta I
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rearranged major parts of the interface
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during the beta the directory was was
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dramatically changed and added to during
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the beta I mean so many things in the
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interface so many changes so many you
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know boarding of microcopy in the
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interface and everything so much of that
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was improved simply by asking people
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like hey you know what do you think of
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this and and watching watching what they
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said and seeing what they got and what
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they didn't get and what they
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misunderstood under the radar this week
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is sponsored by image X IMG I XCOM /ut
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our image X is basically it's hosted
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image processing and image resizing so
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so you kind of give them a Quebec end
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source of images whether it's your web
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server an s3 bucket or even just
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arbitrary URLs that you sign and have
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them process then you can just serve
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their URLs for that for those images in
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your apps on your websites anywhere that
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you could that you need an image served
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over HTTP and you can do real-time
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processing on that image just by URL
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parameters to their service so I use
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image X I used it for a while for
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overcast thumbnails it is a fantastic
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service for just basic things like
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resizing you know like all I need to do
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with overcast thumbnails most of the
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time is resize them and serve them over
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a fast CDN and it does that flawlessly
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there I have no complaints about that at
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all but also what it does a little more
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fancy stuff like for instance you can
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serve you know automatically serve
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different dpi to different screens so
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like if you have a device that it has a
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Retina screen versus one that doesn't it
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can automatically serve the right dpi to
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that to not waste bandwidth or not look
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bad you could automatically serve things
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like like the WebP e format to devices
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that support WebP II things like that
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there's all sorts of great stuff you can
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do automatically and then also you can
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actually adjust the images by using
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those URL parameters so you can do
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things like you know change the colors
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crop them in different ways
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rotate them add annotations I mean
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there's so much you can do with this
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pretty much any kind of like image
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filtering tasks that you can do so much
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editing technique you can do here just
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by changing URL parameters and it all
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their proprietary system that is all at
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gpu-accelerated it's it is so fast I've
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never seen an image processing CDN that
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works this quickly and that's why I use
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them in matrixes API is very easy to use
◼
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I can hurt my own thing myself to do it
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in like one function but if you want any
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other kind of library support they have
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tons of libraries for different
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languages including one for Swift from
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the developers over at ho dinky so check
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►
image six comm that's IMG I XCOM slash u
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TR for under the radar thank you very
◼
►
much to image chicks for sponsoring our
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show once you're out of this beta phase
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like you've gotten all this good
◼
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feedback from your beta then you have
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the interesting thing of how do you
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transition to feedback from customers
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more generally so you're kind of you're
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past this point where fair enough you've
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got all this great feedback from a small
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group of people you open something up
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you put it out as a broader update to
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lots of people and then things get
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really interesting at least or at least
◼
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complicated because suddenly you have
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lots and lots of customers who all have
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different visions for your app all have
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different goals for your app and just by
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the volume of like the virtue of having
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so many numbers like hopefully your app
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is gonna have thousands tens of
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thousands hundreds of thousands millions
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like you're gonna have such a wide and
◼
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varied user base at a certain point that
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the feedback you get and the way you
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collect and manage that becomes like an
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engineering problem in and of itself
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it's something that I've over time had
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to kind of wrap maybe become more
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comfortable with the understanding that
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I'm not a I'm never going to make
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everybody happy like that's just a given
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like right off the bat if you ever are
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kind of trying to build an application
◼
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catering to everybody you're gonna end
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up building like a terrible application
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because you just can't do it you're
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never gonna make something that makes
◼
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everybody happy but you're still are
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gonna get a lot of feedback and that's a
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good thing like when you get feedback
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from a customer you know they send you
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an email and say hey I love the app I
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wish it did X like that's a good sign
◼
►
that means they like the app enough to
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open up an email their email client then
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write down something thoughtful and it's
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a big enough part of their life that
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they see it as something that could be
◼
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better could more fully meet their needs
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and that's a good thing
◼
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but I've definitely gone down the rabbit
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hole many times where I look at that
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feedback and be like oh yeah I should do
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that I should do that I should do that
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and you can end up with a product if you
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kept if you kept saying yes to every bit
◼
►
of that feedback like by version 2 or 3
◼
►
or what you know several updates down
◼
►
the road your app is gonna look nothing
◼
►
like what it really was
◼
►
especially for fulfilling or like a
◼
►
smaller shop like what makes my apps
◼
►
good typically is they're like
◼
►
simplicity and the design around being
◼
►
really accessible because I can't build
◼
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big monolithic massive structures
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►
because I'm just one guy I have to
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►
always be fighting that tension and so
◼
►
typically what I'll end up doing is I'll
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►
say hey thank you for the feedback I
◼
►
appreciate it it helps like inform my
◼
►
future decisions but I never say or very
◼
►
rarely will say like yes absolutely
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►
that's a great idea I will definitely do
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►
that it'll be in the next update unless
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►
it's something of course that I'm
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►
already working on but being able to say
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►
no to people was something that I
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►
definitely had to learn it was something
◼
►
that I had really struggled with early
◼
►
on how do you deal with feedback from
◼
►
like the more general public to your
◼
►
apps you have to consider when you get
◼
►
feedback you know when somebody is
◼
►
asking for a feature or asking for a
◼
►
change it's easy to look at that and say
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►
oh well if I can add this feature or if
◼
►
I can change the app to work in this way
◼
►
then I will get X number of people that
◼
►
will be happier with the app or that
◼
►
might buy it who wouldn't buy it before
◼
►
if you keep following the try but you
◼
►
said like it's very easy to basically
◼
►
have like the the microsoft office 97
◼
►
toolbar of app features you know to have
◼
►
like this giant wall of features really
◼
►
massive settings areas and and tons of
◼
►
tons of just complexity and and burden
◼
►
in the app and I can very easily
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►
overwhelm not just an independent
◼
►
developer but also the users who have to
◼
►
see all those options and don't
◼
►
understand them or might or might
◼
►
configure them wrong and not understand
◼
►
how they got there and and so what you
◼
►
have to consider when when you have
◼
►
people saying oh if only it had this
◼
►
feature I would be happier there are
◼
►
many people who are already happy with
◼
►
the app the way it is and if you add
◼
►
things to it or if you change the way
◼
►
things work they might become less happy
◼
►
with the app and so that's always been a
◼
►
very tricky balance for me with overcast
◼
►
because I when I made overcast it was in
◼
►
part in response to what I was seeing
◼
►
from so many podcast apps at the time
◼
►
which was just so much complexity in the
◼
►
interface and the settings and
◼
►
everything and I wanted to make
◼
►
something simpler a lot of people use
◼
►
overcast because it was simpler at the
◼
►
time you know and now you know that now
◼
►
there's there's a lot of great podcast
◼
►
after now many of which are that simple
◼
►
but but at the time that was like a
◼
►
unique selling point for overcast and I
◼
►
I never want to ruin that and you know
◼
►
not only for for myself and for my
◼
►
customers but also just like for the
◼
►
quality of the app like if I add too
◼
►
many features the app gets worse because
◼
►
it's harder to navigate it's more
◼
►
complex there's more edge cases that I
◼
►
might not be able to test as reliably as
◼
►
I test the core functionality it's a
◼
►
very tricky balance like in in 2.0 I
◼
►
added streaming and I thought it would
◼
►
be amazing if you could just tap any
◼
►
episode and before tapping an episode
◼
►
would just download it if you didn't
◼
►
already have it downloaded and you'd
◼
►
have to wait for it to download before
◼
►
it would play and in 2.0 I think well
◼
►
now I have a streaming engine so if you
◼
►
tap on an episode now I'm just going to
◼
►
start playing the episode just start
◼
►
streaming it and that'll be amazing and
◼
►
but the the number one feedback I've
◼
►
gotten for 2.0 has been how do I turn
◼
►
that off and just go back to the old way
◼
►
of doing it because I want to just go
◼
►
download a bunch of stuff I don't want
◼
►
to start playback immediately now
◼
►
downloading things requires two two
◼
►
steps you know it's half the input
◼
►
button and tap downloads look now I've
◼
►
made the way that people used to do it a
◼
►
little bit harder because I thought the
◼
►
new way was better but not everybody
◼
►
thinks so and so now and so now I have
◼
►
to weigh this decision of like well do I
◼
►
add another option for that do I change
◼
►
the interface to be more like kind I
◼
►
like the way when you tap a tweet and
◼
►
Tweetbot it rather than going directly
◼
►
to something it expands a little like
◼
►
button panel below it I thought about
◼
►
maybe doing something like that there's
◼
►
now I have I have this property to solve
◼
►
and no matter how I solve it if I leave
◼
►
it the same as it is now or if I add a
◼
►
setting to just toggle the old behavior
◼
►
back on which i think is kind of the
◼
►
worst way of doing things or leave the
◼
►
way it is now in which case the you know
◼
►
somebody's angry or the app is slightly
◼
►
worse or I can do the Tweetbot button
◼
►
row thing when you tap an episode cell
◼
►
which will anger the people who like the
◼
►
streaming immediately approach
◼
►
now I'm adding I'm making that two taps
◼
►
for that instead of one so none of these
◼
►
are perfect and that's the thing when
◼
►
you're facing app design decisions like
◼
►
this and when you're dealing with
◼
►
people's feedback nothing you do will be
◼
►
perfect nothing you do will satisfy
◼
►
everybody and so you basically just have
◼
►
to fit you kind of have to develop a
◼
►
sense yourself and you can you can see
◼
►
the results - you kind of have to
◼
►
develop a sense yourself of what will
◼
►
probably please the most people and
◼
►
result in the best app I feel like it's
◼
►
it's relatively counterproductive to
◼
►
think too much about what were people
◼
►
accustomed to before because all your
◼
►
new customers just see the new app and
◼
►
the app at the app as a thing the app is
◼
►
a concept is what it is today not what
◼
►
it was two years ago and so even as
◼
►
you're bringing your customer base
◼
►
forward through updates I always think
◼
►
it's way more important to have a better
◼
►
app today and a better app for tomorrow
◼
►
than it is to please everybody who
◼
►
wanted everything done the old way so as
◼
►
I'm weighing this feedback about
◼
►
overcast streaming versus downloading
◼
►
when you tap on the thing I'm not really
◼
►
considering you know do I do I give that
◼
►
option to people to just toggle it back
◼
►
the way it was before because that that
◼
►
to me is like losing the quality fight
◼
►
because that is just adding another
◼
►
option that new new people will go into
◼
►
the app not knowing or caring what that
◼
►
does if they accidentally turn it on the
◼
►
app will start behaving differently and
◼
►
they'll think it's weird and if they
◼
►
didn't remember how to turn it on so I'm
◼
►
not really considering that option I'm
◼
►
more considering like probably the doing
◼
►
the tweet button row thing instead
◼
►
because I think overall if I was
◼
►
starting from scratch now that I have
◼
►
many different things you can do on an
◼
►
episode rather than just tapping it to
◼
►
download it that is probably the best
◼
►
approach so that's probably what I'm
◼
►
going to do because I'm thinking about
◼
►
what what what will make the best app if
◼
►
somebody looks at it for the very first
◼
►
time not how do I please everybody
◼
►
throughout history because not only is
◼
►
that not good for app quality but it's
◼
►
impossible and I think it also speaks a
◼
►
little bit to one of the other traps
◼
►
that I know I've run into a lot with
◼
►
feedback is the trap that it's very easy
◼
►
to over weight the feedback you get
◼
►
proportional to the size of your user
◼
►
so like the only who you hear from are
◼
►
the people who are I typically very
◼
►
upset or very happy and the entire like
◼
►
middle of your user base which is
◼
►
probably in many ways the more important
◼
►
group of your user base you'd hear
◼
►
nothing from its I've definitely fallen
◼
►
into the trap several times where like
◼
►
I'll get a feature request like once a
◼
►
week for like six weeks and from
◼
►
uniforms from six different people and
◼
►
because it's happening at the sort of
◼
►
interval in my mind it's like oh wow
◼
►
people are could keep asking for this
◼
►
this must be really important but then
◼
►
you take a step back it's like six
◼
►
people have asked for this feature like
◼
►
the app has 1.4 million users and six
◼
►
people have asked for it like it's very
◼
►
hard to not conflate those things and
◼
►
make it feel like wow this is really
◼
►
important because the only people you
◼
►
hear from like there's the self
◼
►
selection for people who want things
◼
►
changed whereas all the people who want
◼
►
status quo or at least who are happy
◼
►
with what it is you never hear from and
◼
►
that's a really funny dynamic that you
◼
►
then have to have to like balance with
◼
►
and get comfortable with to say like
◼
►
okay like is this when I'm like if I get
◼
►
what care what it actually is a lot of
◼
►
feedback like it is has like 10% of my
◼
►
user base reached out to me to ask me
◼
►
for a feature like if they do like
◼
►
that's probably worth paying attention
◼
►
I probably never gotten feedback beyond
◼
►
like every - every now and then where
◼
►
I'll you'll accidentally like ship a
◼
►
horribly horrible crashing bug in which
◼
►
case fair enough you hear from a lot of
◼
►
people saying fix the crashing bug and
◼
►
you know that's like good feedback I
◼
►
will definitely fix but in general like
◼
►
you just you just kind of have to go
◼
►
with it and I think we're to wind this
◼
►
down is to focus on in order to build
◼
►
software I think you have to be able to
◼
►
have a vision for what you want the app
◼
►
to do like you're trying to build this
◼
►
vision it's been a bit abstract but it's
◼
►
like you want have someone to like they
◼
►
know it's yours they know what the app
◼
►
is like it has a personality maybe
◼
►
that's the right way to say it's like
◼
►
you're trying to create this persona
◼
►
and doing things that ultimately will be
◼
►
counter to that persona are probably
◼
►
going to be counterproductive when you
◼
►
get feedback that are people who are
◼
►
like it's like I like your app but I
◼
►
want it to be something else it's like
◼
►
they really want your app to be a
◼
►
different person to have a different
◼
►
personality and you have to then build
◼
►
this you know this whatever the like the
◼
►
confidence even to say no this app is
◼
►
about this like it's about simplicity
◼
►
and focus and ease of use or it's about
◼
►
you know maybe it is a really strong
◼
►
like complicated advanced thing in which
◼
►
case is like yeah let's we every feature
◼
►
I can think of all the settings all the
◼
►
options the more the better but you need
◼
►
as a developer to have that confidence
◼
►
to be able to say like this is what my
◼
►
app is this is the way it should work
◼
►
and to then just be able to go with that
◼
►
and make that work sounds good alright
◼
►
that's it for this week thank you very
◼
►
much for listening please rate us and /
◼
►
or please recommend us an overcast and
◼
►
tell your friends about our show help us
◼
►
grow and we'll talk to you next week bye