Under the Radar

◼   ► welcome to under the radar show about

◼   ► independent iOS development I'm Marco

◼   ► Arment and I'm David Smith under the

◼   ► radar is never longer than thirty

◼   ► minutes so let's get started so today

◼   ► what we wanted to talk about is the way

◼   ► in which we manage and deal with getting

◼   ► feedback on our products on our apps

◼   ► both in terms of from customers but I

◼   ► think one of the things that I really

◼   ► wanted to unpack a little bit is the way

◼   ► that we do we handle feedback when

◼   ► products are in the earlier stages so

◼   ► things like beta testing or early

◼   ► interactions with customers because some

◼   ► of the things that I found really

◼   ► complicated when I'm developing an app

◼   ► or developing a major update is I will

◼   ► have in my mind a vision for what I want

◼   ► that update to do what though what I

◼   ► want the app to do and I kind of am

◼   ► working towards that I'm working towards

◼   ► that but at in this early sort of like

◼   ► embryonic state it's only in my head and

◼   ► in the little prototypes and the little

◼   ► bits of code that I'm building and

◼   ► something significant though happens the

◼   ► first time you ever show it to someone

◼   ► else even beyond just telling someone

◼   ► the idea but when you actually show them

◼   ► something and you give them something to

◼   ► react to react to the way that you think

◼   ► about your the app seems to change for

◼   ► myself because suddenly it has their

◼   ► feedback their suggestions their ideas

◼   ► start to be kind of mixed in and muddled

◼   ► along with mine and so something that

◼   ► I've learned is that I have to be really

◼   ► really careful about how I get that

◼   ► feedback at what point I get that

◼   ► feedback and the way in which I sort of

◼   ► manage it because what I don't want to

◼   ► do is take too much feedback too quickly

◼   ► and kind of lose that vision for what I

◼   ► want to do where I want the app to be or

◼   ► what I want the update to be and so it's

◼   ► something that I it's a weird discipline

◼   ► that I think you kind of have to learn

◼   ► and I was curious though if you've had a

◼   ► similar set of experiences how do you go

◼   ► about kind of pulling in that feedback

◼   ► during early development I will usually

◼   ► you know ask close friends for input on

◼   ► certain basic decisions about it basic

◼   ► feature decisions how things might be

◼   ► structured what features might need to

◼   ► be necessary or unnecessary and then I

◼   ► I've recently in recent years gotten

◼   ► really a big fan

◼   ► of medium-sized private betas for me

◼   ► that the private beta is extremely

◼   ► useful and I've done a number of sizes

◼   ► of betas I first you know in the early

◼   ► days of overcast I was doing a beta of

◼   ► like I think like 20 people

◼   ► I've also since then done betas with 800

◼   ► people because test flight allowed you

◼   ► to do 1,000 now it's actually 2,000 but

◼   ► so that I did like 800 people on a beta

◼   ► that was like I basically had a public

◼   ► signup form and just without that almost

◼   ► anybody in more recently I've done much

◼   ► smaller babies going back to that

◼   ► original size so if like 20 to 40 people

◼   ► again and what I found is that the the

◼   ► quality of the feedback doesn't actually

◼   ► seem to change significantly with the

◼   ► size of the beta and which is

◼   ► counterintuitive but it seems like you

◼   ► can show the app to a relatively small

◼   ► number of people and you'll pretty much

◼   ► get all the feedback you need from a

◼   ► small group and and you know maybe it

◼   ► maybe not a small group of like two but

◼   ► 10 or 20 people if they're actually

◼   ► gonna use it and give you feedback which

◼   ► is a separate point but if they're

◼   ► actually gonna use and give you feedback

◼   ► you don't need that many people involved

◼   ► in the group now the feedback you get it

◼   ► tends to be really focused or really

◼   ► heavily weighted towards upfront

◼   ► feedback right the very first time

◼   ► somebody uses a beta because and I don't

◼   ► know if other people do this but I do

◼   ► this where if somebody gives me a beta I

◼   ► will usually take a lot of time going

◼   ► through the app that very first time and

◼   ► giving pretty detailed feedback to them

◼   ► but after that first time as more

◼   ► updates come in I very rarely ever take

◼   ► that amount of time again unless I have

◼   ► you know spot an obvious but then I can

◼   ► you know screenshot a tenant's them

◼   ► whatever but general feedback about

◼   ► about a beta or about an app I usually

◼   ► it's usually front loaded and I found

◼   ► that to be the case with most of my

◼   ► testers as well so what I will usually

◼   ► do is if I can I will have a few new

◼   ► testers in every group and test flight

◼   ► allows you to see who among the group

◼   ► didn't install the latest few version

◼   ► like it'll tell you the last version

◼   ► each person installed so if I see some

◼   ► of my testers losing interest you know

◼   ► like if they if they just don't install

◼   ► the updates or if the last IP they

◼   ► installed was like five builds ago I'll

◼   ► just quietly remove them from the

◼   ► list because and it's no hard feelings

◼   ► you know his I do that office I always

◼   ► thought about this all the time because

◼   ► I lose interest or I don't have time in

◼   ► that in that month or whatever so I

◼   ► usually will cut people who who kind of

◼   ► aren't using it and you know no hard

◼   ► feelings lots a lot of times are my

◼   ► friends I don't I don't even you know

◼   ► doesn't doesn't matter no hard feelings

◼   ► and then I will add a few new people

◼   ► every time because it allows me to get

◼   ► that that initial impression like

◼   ► somebody's first impression of this app

◼   ► it allows me to have that ongoing

◼   ► throughout the process rather than

◼   ► showing it all to the same people right

◼   ► up front and never bring any new people

◼   ► in along the way so I've only recently

◼   ► started doing beta testing properly at

◼   ► all I would say like the most recent

◼   ► update I did for pedometer plus plus was

◼   ► the first time I'd ever done a big

◼   ► update our big beta test before I

◼   ► launched something big and you know it's

◼   ► the before that it had only really been

◼   ► I would Institute - I would have it

◼   ► running on my my own phone maybe my

◼   ► wife's maybe a few like a one or two

◼   ► other people and honestly and then on a

◼   ► lot of testing devices and I'd never had

◼   ► that experience of having this big kind

◼   ► of like wide like I did a similar type

◼   ► of thing like I just said anybody who

◼   ► wants to beta test pedometer plus plus

◼   ► let me know and it went to test flight

◼   ► and I put them all in and I had this an

◼   ► interesting thing that was sort of like

◼   ► similar to your experience where you get

◼   ► this big wave of comments in this big

◼   ► wave of feedback early on and then it

◼   ► sort of dies down and then actually I

◼   ► found is you ended up with another wave

◼   ► like a week later with sort of like the

◼   ► huh now that I've been using it for a

◼   ► while here's like some other thoughts

◼   ► and I would say that I had a very

◼   ► similar kind of experience to you

◼   ► insofar as there's only a certain number

◼   ► amount of feedback was actually helpful

◼   ► and like beyond that it you start to get

◼   ► a lot more repeats you start to get a

◼   ► lot more tangential things but like at

◼   ► its core what I found helpful in the

◼   ► beta test was validating a that the app

◼   ► works and is functional in the way that

◼   ► I need it to be and then to its

◼   ► validating that it's a good idea that

◼   ► people are like I'm not getting to like

◼   ► what this doesn't make any sense or

◼   ► people who have used the app before and

◼   ► going to this version are like this

◼   ► doesn't make you know you're totally

◼   ► breaking the thing that made the app

◼   ► good before because I think those are

◼   ► the things that I find out

◼   ► struggle with as myself because I have

◼   ► been working on if you see I've been

◼   ► working on an update for for several

◼   ► months my experience with the app at

◼   ► that point becomes almost exclusively

◼   ► the new version of the app and not what

◼   ► the existing version in the App Store

◼   ► is and I can tend to lose sight of the

◼   ► distance that I'm creating between those

◼   ► two things because I never go back to

◼   ► all right other than for like my final

◼   ► acceptance testing like I won't go back

◼   ► to the App Store download the version

◼   ► and run that for a few days like that's

◼   ► just not typically the way I'd do it

◼   ► because obviously I'm constantly running

◼   ► development builds on my own machine and

◼   ► the feedback that I got was kind of that

◼   ► was most helpful is when I have someone

◼   ► who's like so I used the old version

◼   ► yesterday and I used the new version

◼   ► today and this felt weird by going from

◼   ► there to there and like those types of

◼   ► feedback are things that are really hard

◼   ► for me to do because like I said I have

◼   ► this whole new vision for the app I've

◼   ► imagined and built features around this

◼   ► whole new thing and that's what I'm used

◼   ► to and months later like sometimes the

◼   ► weirdest one is when you go back to the

◼   ► App Store version you're like what is

◼   ► this like I can't believe nothing and

◼   ► you've not even necessary like oh I

◼   ► can't believe this shipped but like whoa

◼   ► this is different like this functions in

◼   ► a different way this has lots of other

◼   ► issues and so that was something that I

◼   ► learned from this feedbacks like look at

◼   ► these little like huh this was weird

◼   ► coming from that and that's helpful both

◼   ► in terms of from a development

◼   ► perspective but then also from in terms

◼   ► of what questions are my beta testers

◼   ► going to have about the app

◼   ► what's weird to them what's new to them

◼   ► and then when I take that feedback I can

◼   ► structure my documentation or my

◼   ► remember like release notes or things to

◼   ► be like if you're coming from the old

◼   ► version to the new version you might

◼   ► find this weird if you find this weird

◼   ► this is the answer to your question but

◼   ► that's something that I was never able

◼   ► to do before I was able to find test

◼   ► flight like I have a broader audience

◼   ► and something that I definitely now I

◼   ► think will use going forward

◼   ► whereas before I always view test light

◼   ► it's like oh it's beta testing it's just

◼   ► like making sure that there's no

◼   ► Crashers this making sure there's not a

◼   ► lot of things but understanding customer

◼   ► perspective changes from the old to the

◼   ► new was really helpful

◼   ► but even when starting out new I mean

◼   ► the the initial overcast beta I did 41.0

◼   ► before the app is out was incredibly

◼   ► valuable in

◼   ► because when you're developing an app

◼   ► and you're only using it yourself you

◼   ► know like like you mentioned I do the

◼   ► same thing where like I'll use it myself

◼   ► for like you know months and and as soon

◼   ► as I can get it running on my phone

◼   ► that'll be I lose it myself full time

◼   ► and when you're developing the app

◼   ► yourself you know how to use it and you

◼   ► know what you did so everything makes

◼   ► sense to you and when you first show it

◼   ► to beta testers especially for a 1.0

◼   ► where they are not familiar with the app

◼   ► before the the most valuable perspective

◼   ► I got was what doesn't make sense or

◼   ► what is being misunderstood from what I

◼   ► intended and I made tons of interface

◼   ► improvements and tons of changes during

◼   ► that initial test you know I thought

◼   ► that a beta test would just be like oh

◼   ► just let me know if anything crashes or

◼   ► breaks and then I'll ship it in a few

◼   ► weeks it turned out to be months long

◼   ► because everybody gave really good

◼   ► feedback about you know this doesn't

◼   ► really make sense or I don't understand

◼   ► what this is and and the app I

◼   ► dramatically improved the app it was

◼   ► almost like shipping at version 2.0 you

◼   ► know we're headed than shipping 1.0

◼   ► because I had such great feedback just

◼   ► by asking people and again you don't

◼   ► need this was only a group like 20

◼   ► people it doesn't need to be a big group

◼   ► it just needs to be people who aren't

◼   ► you because you you get everything you

◼   ► did because you did it and you designed

◼   ► it and as soon as you show anybody else

◼   ► you immediately will see the flaws in

◼   ► what you did because you will see them

◼   ► either struggling to to understand what

◼   ► you did or misinterpreting things or

◼   ► missing entire big features because they

◼   ► just don't see them or they don't they

◼   ► don't see why they would need them or

◼   ► something and it's great like my effects

◼   ► panel in overcast look totally different

◼   ► when when I sipped the 1.0 beta the very

◼   ► first beta voice boost didn't even exist

◼   ► by that name it was actually a boost

◼   ► slider and it had four different modes

◼   ► and and and smart speed was you know it

◼   ► was there but everything was kind of

◼   ► rearranged differently and and over time

◼   ► and the the wording that the labels were

◼   ► all different and over that beta I was

◼   ► able to really refine that panel reduce

◼   ► voice boost down to either an honor and

◼   ► off which was actually it's it was at

◼   ► strongest setting I

◼   ► just I realized happy to development you

◼   ► know actually I always just leave it the

◼   ► strong a setting because that's the best

◼   ► so obviously let me the other ones and

◼   ► just make it the strongest setting and

◼   ► and it you know stuff like that would

◼   ► reduce user confusion and the beta I

◼   ► rearranged major parts of the interface

◼   ► during the beta the directory was was

◼   ► dramatically changed and added to during

◼   ► the beta I mean so many things in the

◼   ► interface so many changes so many you

◼   ► know boarding of microcopy in the

◼   ► interface and everything so much of that

◼   ► was improved simply by asking people

◼   ► like hey you know what do you think of

◼   ► this and and watching watching what they

◼   ► said and seeing what they got and what

◼   ► they didn't get and what they

◼   ► misunderstood under the radar this week

◼   ► is sponsored by image X IMG I XCOM /ut

◼   ► our image X is basically it's hosted

◼   ► image processing and image resizing so

◼   ► so you kind of give them a Quebec end

◼   ► source of images whether it's your web

◼   ► server an s3 bucket or even just

◼   ► arbitrary URLs that you sign and have

◼   ► them process then you can just serve

◼   ► their URLs for that for those images in

◼   ► your apps on your websites anywhere that

◼   ► you could that you need an image served

◼   ► over HTTP and you can do real-time

◼   ► processing on that image just by URL

◼   ► parameters to their service so I use

◼   ► image X I used it for a while for

◼   ► overcast thumbnails it is a fantastic

◼   ► service for just basic things like

◼   ► resizing you know like all I need to do

◼   ► with overcast thumbnails most of the

◼   ► time is resize them and serve them over

◼   ► a fast CDN and it does that flawlessly

◼   ► there I have no complaints about that at

◼   ► all but also what it does a little more

◼   ► fancy stuff like for instance you can

◼   ► serve you know automatically serve

◼   ► different dpi to different screens so

◼   ► like if you have a device that it has a

◼   ► Retina screen versus one that doesn't it

◼   ► can automatically serve the right dpi to

◼   ► that to not waste bandwidth or not look

◼   ► bad you could automatically serve things

◼   ► like like the WebP e format to devices

◼   ► that support WebP II things like that

◼   ► there's all sorts of great stuff you can

◼   ► do automatically and then also you can

◼   ► actually adjust the images by using

◼   ► those URL parameters so you can do

◼   ► things like you know change the colors

◼   ► crop them in different ways

◼   ► rotate them add annotations I mean

◼   ► there's so much you can do with this

◼   ► pretty much any kind of like image

◼   ► filtering tasks that you can do so much

◼   ► editing technique you can do here just

◼   ► by changing URL parameters and it all

◼   ► runs

◼   ► their proprietary system that is all at

◼   ► gpu-accelerated it's it is so fast I've

◼   ► never seen an image processing CDN that

◼   ► works this quickly and that's why I use

◼   ► them in matrixes API is very easy to use

◼   ► I can hurt my own thing myself to do it

◼   ► in like one function but if you want any

◼   ► other kind of library support they have

◼   ► tons of libraries for different

◼   ► languages including one for Swift from

◼   ► the developers over at ho dinky so check

◼   ► this out

◼   ► image six comm that's IMG I XCOM slash u

◼   ► TR for under the radar thank you very

◼   ► much to image chicks for sponsoring our

◼   ► show once you're out of this beta phase

◼   ► like you've gotten all this good

◼   ► feedback from your beta then you have

◼   ► the interesting thing of how do you

◼   ► transition to feedback from customers

◼   ► more generally so you're kind of you're

◼   ► past this point where fair enough you've

◼   ► got all this great feedback from a small

◼   ► group of people you open something up

◼   ► you put it out as a broader update to

◼   ► lots of people and then things get

◼   ► really interesting at least or at least

◼   ► complicated because suddenly you have

◼   ► lots and lots of customers who all have

◼   ► different visions for your app all have

◼   ► different goals for your app and just by

◼   ► the volume of like the virtue of having

◼   ► so many numbers like hopefully your app

◼   ► is gonna have thousands tens of

◼   ► thousands hundreds of thousands millions

◼   ► like you're gonna have such a wide and

◼   ► varied user base at a certain point that

◼   ► the feedback you get and the way you

◼   ► collect and manage that becomes like an

◼   ► engineering problem in and of itself

◼   ► it's something that I've over time had

◼   ► to kind of wrap maybe become more

◼   ► comfortable with the understanding that

◼   ► I'm not a I'm never going to make

◼   ► everybody happy like that's just a given

◼   ► like right off the bat if you ever are

◼   ► kind of trying to build an application

◼   ► catering to everybody you're gonna end

◼   ► up building like a terrible application

◼   ► because you just can't do it you're

◼   ► never gonna make something that makes

◼   ► everybody happy but you're still are

◼   ► gonna get a lot of feedback and that's a

◼   ► good thing like when you get feedback

◼   ► from a customer you know they send you

◼   ► an email and say hey I love the app I

◼   ► wish it did X like that's a good sign

◼   ► that means they like the app enough to

◼   ► open up an email their email client then

◼   ► write down something thoughtful and it's

◼   ► a big enough part of their life that

◼   ► they see it as something that could be

◼   ► better could more fully meet their needs

◼   ► and that's a good thing

◼   ► but I've definitely gone down the rabbit

◼   ► hole many times where I look at that

◼   ► feedback and be like oh yeah I should do

◼   ► that I should do that I should do that

◼   ► and you can end up with a product if you

◼   ► kept if you kept saying yes to every bit

◼   ► of that feedback like by version 2 or 3

◼   ► or what you know several updates down

◼   ► the road your app is gonna look nothing

◼   ► like what it really was

◼   ► especially for fulfilling or like a

◼   ► smaller shop like what makes my apps

◼   ► good typically is they're like

◼   ► simplicity and the design around being

◼   ► really accessible because I can't build

◼   ► big monolithic massive structures

◼   ► because I'm just one guy I have to

◼   ► always be fighting that tension and so

◼   ► typically what I'll end up doing is I'll

◼   ► say hey thank you for the feedback I

◼   ► appreciate it it helps like inform my

◼   ► future decisions but I never say or very

◼   ► rarely will say like yes absolutely

◼   ► that's a great idea I will definitely do

◼   ► that it'll be in the next update unless

◼   ► it's something of course that I'm

◼   ► already working on but being able to say

◼   ► no to people was something that I

◼   ► definitely had to learn it was something

◼   ► that I had really struggled with early

◼   ► on how do you deal with feedback from

◼   ► like the more general public to your

◼   ► apps you have to consider when you get

◼   ► feedback you know when somebody is

◼   ► asking for a feature or asking for a

◼   ► change it's easy to look at that and say

◼   ► oh well if I can add this feature or if

◼   ► I can change the app to work in this way

◼   ► then I will get X number of people that

◼   ► will be happier with the app or that

◼   ► might buy it who wouldn't buy it before

◼   ► if you keep following the try but you

◼   ► said like it's very easy to basically

◼   ► have like the the microsoft office 97

◼   ► toolbar of app features you know to have

◼   ► like this giant wall of features really

◼   ► massive settings areas and and tons of

◼   ► tons of just complexity and and burden

◼   ► in the app and I can very easily

◼   ► overwhelm not just an independent

◼   ► developer but also the users who have to

◼   ► see all those options and don't

◼   ► understand them or might or might

◼   ► configure them wrong and not understand

◼   ► how they got there and and so what you

◼   ► have to consider when when you have

◼   ► people saying oh if only it had this

◼   ► feature I would be happier there are

◼   ► many people who are already happy with

◼   ► the app the way it is and if you add

◼   ► things to it or if you change the way

◼   ► things work they might become less happy

◼   ► with the app and so that's always been a

◼   ► very tricky balance for me with overcast

◼   ► because I when I made overcast it was in

◼   ► part in response to what I was seeing

◼   ► from so many podcast apps at the time

◼   ► which was just so much complexity in the

◼   ► interface and the settings and

◼   ► everything and I wanted to make

◼   ► something simpler a lot of people use

◼   ► overcast because it was simpler at the

◼   ► time you know and now you know that now

◼   ► there's there's a lot of great podcast

◼   ► after now many of which are that simple

◼   ► but but at the time that was like a

◼   ► unique selling point for overcast and I

◼   ► I never want to ruin that and you know

◼   ► not only for for myself and for my

◼   ► customers but also just like for the

◼   ► quality of the app like if I add too

◼   ► many features the app gets worse because

◼   ► it's harder to navigate it's more

◼   ► complex there's more edge cases that I

◼   ► might not be able to test as reliably as

◼   ► I test the core functionality it's a

◼   ► very tricky balance like in in 2.0 I

◼   ► added streaming and I thought it would

◼   ► be amazing if you could just tap any

◼   ► episode and before tapping an episode

◼   ► would just download it if you didn't

◼   ► already have it downloaded and you'd

◼   ► have to wait for it to download before

◼   ► it would play and in 2.0 I think well

◼   ► now I have a streaming engine so if you

◼   ► tap on an episode now I'm just going to

◼   ► start playing the episode just start

◼   ► streaming it and that'll be amazing and

◼   ► to me it was amazing

◼   ► but the the number one feedback I've

◼   ► gotten for 2.0 has been how do I turn

◼   ► that off and just go back to the old way

◼   ► of doing it because I want to just go

◼   ► download a bunch of stuff I don't want

◼   ► to start playback immediately now

◼   ► downloading things requires two two

◼   ► steps you know it's half the input

◼   ► button and tap downloads look now I've

◼   ► made the way that people used to do it a

◼   ► little bit harder because I thought the

◼   ► new way was better but not everybody

◼   ► thinks so and so now and so now I have

◼   ► to weigh this decision of like well do I

◼   ► add another option for that do I change

◼   ► the interface to be more like kind I

◼   ► like the way when you tap a tweet and

◼   ► Tweetbot it rather than going directly

◼   ► to something it expands a little like

◼   ► button panel below it I thought about

◼   ► maybe doing something like that there's

◼   ► now I have I have this property to solve

◼   ► and no matter how I solve it if I leave

◼   ► it the same as it is now or if I add a

◼   ► setting to just toggle the old behavior

◼   ► back on which i think is kind of the

◼   ► worst way of doing things or leave the

◼   ► way it is now in which case the you know

◼   ► somebody's angry or the app is slightly

◼   ► worse or I can do the Tweetbot button

◼   ► row thing when you tap an episode cell

◼   ► which will anger the people who like the

◼   ► streaming immediately approach

◼   ► now I'm adding I'm making that two taps

◼   ► for that instead of one so none of these

◼   ► are perfect and that's the thing when

◼   ► you're facing app design decisions like

◼   ► this and when you're dealing with

◼   ► people's feedback nothing you do will be

◼   ► perfect nothing you do will satisfy

◼   ► everybody and so you basically just have

◼   ► to fit you kind of have to develop a

◼   ► sense yourself and you can you can see

◼   ► the results - you kind of have to

◼   ► develop a sense yourself of what will

◼   ► probably please the most people and

◼   ► result in the best app I feel like it's

◼   ► it's relatively counterproductive to

◼   ► think too much about what were people

◼   ► accustomed to before because all your

◼   ► new customers just see the new app and

◼   ► the app at the app as a thing the app is

◼   ► a concept is what it is today not what

◼   ► it was two years ago and so even as

◼   ► you're bringing your customer base

◼   ► forward through updates I always think

◼   ► it's way more important to have a better

◼   ► app today and a better app for tomorrow

◼   ► than it is to please everybody who

◼   ► wanted everything done the old way so as

◼   ► I'm weighing this feedback about

◼   ► overcast streaming versus downloading

◼   ► when you tap on the thing I'm not really

◼   ► considering you know do I do I give that

◼   ► option to people to just toggle it back

◼   ► the way it was before because that that

◼   ► to me is like losing the quality fight

◼   ► because that is just adding another

◼   ► option that new new people will go into

◼   ► the app not knowing or caring what that

◼   ► does if they accidentally turn it on the

◼   ► app will start behaving differently and

◼   ► they'll think it's weird and if they

◼   ► didn't remember how to turn it on so I'm

◼   ► not really considering that option I'm

◼   ► more considering like probably the doing

◼   ► the tweet button row thing instead

◼   ► because I think overall if I was

◼   ► starting from scratch now that I have

◼   ► many different things you can do on an

◼   ► episode rather than just tapping it to

◼   ► download it that is probably the best

◼   ► approach so that's probably what I'm

◼   ► going to do because I'm thinking about

◼   ► what what what will make the best app if

◼   ► somebody looks at it for the very first

◼   ► time not how do I please everybody

◼   ► throughout history because not only is

◼   ► that not good for app quality but it's

◼   ► impossible and I think it also speaks a

◼   ► little bit to one of the other traps

◼   ► that I know I've run into a lot with

◼   ► feedback is the trap that it's very easy

◼   ► to over weight the feedback you get

◼   ► proportional to the size of your user

◼   ► base

◼   ► so like the only who you hear from are

◼   ► the people who are I typically very

◼   ► upset or very happy and the entire like

◼   ► middle of your user base which is

◼   ► probably in many ways the more important

◼   ► group of your user base you'd hear

◼   ► nothing from its I've definitely fallen

◼   ► into the trap several times where like

◼   ► I'll get a feature request like once a

◼   ► week for like six weeks and from

◼   ► uniforms from six different people and

◼   ► because it's happening at the sort of

◼   ► interval in my mind it's like oh wow

◼   ► people are could keep asking for this

◼   ► this must be really important but then

◼   ► you take a step back it's like six

◼   ► people have asked for this feature like

◼   ► the app has 1.4 million users and six

◼   ► people have asked for it like it's very

◼   ► hard to not conflate those things and

◼   ► make it feel like wow this is really

◼   ► important because the only people you

◼   ► hear from like there's the self

◼   ► selection for people who want things

◼   ► changed whereas all the people who want

◼   ► status quo or at least who are happy

◼   ► with what it is you never hear from and

◼   ► that's a really funny dynamic that you

◼   ► then have to have to like balance with

◼   ► and get comfortable with to say like

◼   ► okay like is this when I'm like if I get

◼   ► what care what it actually is a lot of

◼   ► feedback like it is has like 10% of my

◼   ► user base reached out to me to ask me

◼   ► for a feature like if they do like

◼   ► that's probably worth paying attention

◼   ► to

◼   ► I probably never gotten feedback beyond

◼   ► like every - every now and then where

◼   ► I'll you'll accidentally like ship a

◼   ► horribly horrible crashing bug in which

◼   ► case fair enough you hear from a lot of

◼   ► people saying fix the crashing bug and

◼   ► you know that's like good feedback I

◼   ► will definitely fix but in general like

◼   ► you just you just kind of have to go

◼   ► with it and I think we're to wind this

◼   ► down is to focus on in order to build

◼   ► software I think you have to be able to

◼   ► have a vision for what you want the app

◼   ► to do like you're trying to build this

◼   ► vision it's been a bit abstract but it's

◼   ► like you want have someone to like they

◼   ► know it's yours they know what the app

◼   ► is like it has a personality maybe

◼   ► that's the right way to say it's like

◼   ► you're trying to create this persona

◼   ► that your app

◼   ► and doing things that ultimately will be

◼   ► counter to that persona are probably

◼   ► going to be counterproductive when you

◼   ► get feedback that are people who are

◼   ► like it's like I like your app but I

◼   ► want it to be something else it's like

◼   ► they really want your app to be a

◼   ► different person to have a different

◼   ► personality and you have to then build

◼   ► this you know this whatever the like the

◼   ► confidence even to say no this app is

◼   ► about this like it's about simplicity

◼   ► and focus and ease of use or it's about

◼   ► you know maybe it is a really strong

◼   ► like complicated advanced thing in which

◼   ► case is like yeah let's we every feature

◼   ► I can think of all the settings all the

◼   ► options the more the better but you need

◼   ► as a developer to have that confidence

◼   ► to be able to say like this is what my

◼   ► app is this is the way it should work

◼   ► and to then just be able to go with that

◼   ► and make that work sounds good alright

◼   ► that's it for this week thank you very

◼   ► much for listening please rate us and /

◼   ► or please recommend us an overcast and

◼   ► tell your friends about our show help us

◼   ► grow and we'll talk to you next week bye