Under the Radar

◼   ► welcome to under the radar a show about

◼   ► independent iOS development I'm Marco

◼   ► Arment and I'm David Smith under the

◼   ► radar is never longer than 30 minutes so

◼   ► let's get started

◼   ► I have little hesitation there you

◼   ► almost said 15 almost so this week we're

◼   ► gonna be talking about work-life balance

◼   ► both of us are independent both of us

◼   ► have had jobs before and and and you've

◼   ► you did consulting for a while right I

◼   ► did yeah I did only very briefly so I'm

◼   ► not much of an authority on consulting

◼   ► but you are and so we kind of have had

◼   ► these these different job types and the

◼   ► the work-life balance can can vary a lot

◼   ► between them you know I think full-time

◼   ► employment when you're working forget

◼   ► somebody else you have like a

◼   ► nine-to-five kind of job at least you

◼   ► know you hope sometimes it's worse than

◼   ► that but that's generally going for when

◼   ► you're working full-time for somebody

◼   ► else you you are kind of not in control

◼   ► of your own work-life balance - - most -

◼   ► most of the degree but that might be a

◼   ► good thing sometimes like you know the

◼   ► full-time jobs can span the entire

◼   ► spectrum from worst to best work-life

◼   ► balance and that it really depends on

◼   ► the job and the conditions around it but

◼   ► when they're good when you have a nice

◼   ► easy you know or not easy but if when

◼   ► you have a good job at a well-run place

◼   ► working on something that's not totally

◼   ► crazy that can usually offer the best

◼   ► and most consistent work-life balance

◼   ► among all the different employment types

◼   ► in our business and that you know it's

◼   ► most likely to be a healthy work-life

◼   ► balance when you have like a big boring

◼   ► company that you're working for working

◼   ► on probably something that isn't that

◼   ► interesting of work to you necessarily

◼   ► and that you know that won't be like the

◼   ► trendy cool thing that all the Google

◼   ► people are talking about or whatever

◼   ► like you know stuff that we wouldn't be

◼   ► talking about on our tech podcast in all

◼   ► likelihood you know you work for a bank

◼   ► or insurance company or something like

◼   ► that like the the we think of these jobs

◼   ► oftentimes as like being boring but

◼   ► boring can be really good in a lot of

◼   ► ways and it can really offer an

◼   ► incredibly healthy work-life balance if

◼   ► most of the time you're not working

◼   ► incredibly long hours you're not having

◼   ► to work on the weekends or when you're

◼   ► home you know or on vacation like you

◼   ► know you don't really take work with you

◼   ► when you leave work so when you have one

◼   ► of these jobs that

◼   ► offer an incredible work/life balance

◼   ► and usually you know again it might not

◼   ► be like the most cutting-edge stuff in

◼   ► the consumer space to get working on you

◼   ► know you might not be building the next

◼   ► photo sharing app or whatever you

◼   ► probably also won't strike it rich doing

◼   ► this kind of thing because you probably

◼   ► are working for a more mature sheilo

◼   ► company where you're getting a typical

◼   ► salary for the kind of work you do

◼   ► you're probably not getting a lot of

◼   ► stock or stock options or at least of

◼   ► what you're getting will be fairly

◼   ► incrementally valuable so that you know

◼   ► there are downsides to this but it's it

◼   ► can really provide incredible work-life

◼   ► out because really once you leave work

◼   ► generally you're done for the day you

◼   ► don't have to be constantly on call

◼   ► constantly doing things answering emails

◼   ► you know at midnight when you're trying

◼   ► to go to bed and your boss is emailing

◼   ► you about crazy stuff I think usually

◼   ► doesn't happen in these bigger companies

◼   ► and they also can usually help manage

◼   ► vacation time a lot better you know like

◼   ► it when you when you work for yourself

◼   ► you know you you can take vacation

◼   ► whenever you want but often times I

◼   ► think we'll get to this oftentimes

◼   ► that's kind of a bad thing as well when

◼   ► you work for a big company

◼   ► you usually accrue vacation time on a

◼   ► certain fixed rate per year that you're

◼   ► working there per month that you're

◼   ► working there and usually they will even

◼   ► have to pay it out to you if you quit or

◼   ► get or I don't know if you get fire but

◼   ► it when you leave like these days are

◼   ► actually accounted for so like you earn

◼   ► vacation days and you are often forced

◼   ► to take them or like they or they won't

◼   ► they won't accumulate past a certain

◼   ► limit so you have to take a vacation you

◼   ► know kind of thing and oftentimes that

◼   ► is better than like a kind of freeform

◼   ► vacation policy if you're working for

◼   ► like a little startup or working for

◼   ► yourself where it's like you know you

◼   ► could they're like well you can take a

◼   ► vacation whenever you want but you can

◼   ► never stop working like it's often times

◼   ► that work-life balance that you get at a

◼   ► bigger company or at a more mature

◼   ► company is just unbeatable and then you

◼   ► also have if you're doing consulting

◼   ► work you know if you decide not to work

◼   ► for a big company a lot a lot of people

◼   ► on our business are doing consulting

◼   ► work and with consulting you are much

◼   ► more responsible for maintaining your

◼   ► own work-life balance then when you're

◼   ► working for somebody else and and it's

◼   ► kind of a weird middle ground it I think

◼   ► consulting if I had to take a guess in a

◼   ► broad generalization I

◼   ► it's a consulting probably offers the

◼   ► the least work-life balance

◼   ► health of all the different employment

◼   ► types that I've seen from people who do

◼   ► it because you you don't have a

◼   ► full-time boss but every client is kind

◼   ► of a boss so you kind of have like

◼   ► multiple bosses all of whom have

◼   ► different expectations on your time and

◼   ► your income is tied directly to the

◼   ► hours that you are working for them and

◼   ► you have to build them for the hours and

◼   ► they are paying for these hours so it's

◼   ► kind of hard to waste any and so if you

◼   ► stop working for say a night or a

◼   ► weekend like if you stop working the

◼   ► money stops coming in so there's a huge

◼   ► incentive to overwork and to not have a

◼   ► good work-life balance and the NL's

◼   ► oftentimes consulting work comes in

◼   ► waves so you might have really created

◼   ► times and then really dry time it's kind

◼   ► of hard to to keep things in balance

◼   ► there so I think consulting hard be the

◼   ► hardest then you have indie life where

◼   ► if you if you work on your own products

◼   ► or if you are the owner of a company or

◼   ► work is kind of different but you know

◼   ► if you work on your own stuff you it

◼   ► seems like you'd have the best work life

◼   ► balance possible but in reality you have

◼   ► many of the same pressures as

◼   ► consultants do where you kind of impose

◼   ► your own guilt on yourself like if I

◼   ► wait I'm not working right now so I'm

◼   ► not like I'm wasting time or I should be

◼   ► always doing something or this is

◼   ► unproductive time and like it makes it

◼   ► hard to enjoy like a vacation or even a

◼   ► night off like a night to watch TV with

◼   ► your spouse or go out or something like

◼   ► it makes it hard to enjoy that when you

◼   ► work for yourself and you know that like

◼   ► like I could be working right now I

◼   ► could be doing something right now and

◼   ► any time you're not spent working the

◼   ► work is just not moving forward there's

◼   ► no one else picking up the slack or the

◼   ► office isn't just closed for the day

◼   ► like just things just stop when you're

◼   ► not working and this can often lead to a

◼   ► harder than usual work-life balance to

◼   ► maintain so I don't know so so both of

◼   ► us are the last cut of our image and the

◼   ► independent developers who work for

◼   ► ourselves so and you don't really do any

◼   ► consulting anymore do you

◼   ► I don't you haven't for a few years

◼   ► right yeah so so both of us are totally

◼   ► dependent now we work only on our own

◼   ► stuff

◼   ► but I mean well I guess we could let's

◼   ► start with kind of like a status update

◼   ► like how do you think your work-life

◼   ► balance is I think now like having now

◼   ► been I think I've been independent for

◼   ► about eight years and I've been haven't

◼   ► done consulting for probably three years

◼   ► or so like I've been fully fully

◼   ► independent for three or four years now

◼   ► I'd say I'm getting pretty good at it

◼   ► it's been the result though of a lot of

◼   ► effort in time and thought to get to

◼   ► here because by default you're not gonna

◼   ► have a good work-life balance like that

◼   ► was the thing that I sort of found when

◼   ► I weighed sort of quit my day job and

◼   ► it's like okay it's like this will be

◼   ► great I'll work from home I'll be able

◼   ► to like be around okay

◼   ► I've started going independent right

◼   ► when our first child was born I was like

◼   ► this is be great I'll be home I'll be

◼   ► around him as he's growing up this will

◼   ► be awesome and like the default state

◼   ► was terrible because I was I felt like I

◼   ► was I felt like concurrently felt like I

◼   ► was always working and like I was never

◼   ► working like I was in this weird tension

◼   ► where like I'm always thinking about

◼   ► work but I'm also always at home and so

◼   ► I'm always think about home stuff too

◼   ► and it was terrible over the course of

◼   ► the last few years though it's like it's

◼   ► we've found things that work for you

◼   ► know for fer me and my family to be able

◼   ► to be like okay yeah this works like I

◼   ► feel like I have a good sense of getting

◼   ► work done like I'm being productive and

◼   ► useful and not just like she's sitting

◼   ► on the deck Drina drinking martinis but

◼   ► I'm also at home when I need to be at

◼   ► home and my you know my kids understand

◼   ► how that works and my wife understands

◼   ► how that works and it seems to be

◼   ► working

◼   ► that's good yeah I I have a lot to learn

◼   ► from you because you know I've been

◼   ► independent since late 2010 and I so you

◼   ► know about about five years and I have I

◼   ► have not found the balance yet I've kind

◼   ► of oscillate between what you know the

◼   ► former part of what you said of like

◼   ► constantly worrying about work and

◼   ► family stuff and just not getting enough

◼   ► work done and then feeling guilty I'm

◼   ► not getting enough work done or feeling

◼   ► regret that I can't do more like because

◼   ► you know I have a certain amount of time

◼   ► of the day I

◼   ► decided which I think we talked about

◼   ► I'm sure we will I've decided that it is

◼   ► not right for me to hire people like for

◼   ► what like I don't think I would be

◼   ► happier or necessarily even more

◼   ► productive if I hired people nothing not

◼   ► even to mention the problem of a

◼   ► forwarding them and then the other other

◼   ► issues with hiring somebody so like I

◼   ► I'm limited by what I can do and so I

◼   ► feel a burden from that of like I should

◼   ► work more or I wish I could work more

◼   ► but then when I have periods of working

◼   ► a lot I have a lot of trouble turning it

◼   ► off to go to sleep at night or to go out

◼   ► to dinner or something like I have a lot

◼   ► of trouble maintaining that balance and

◼   ► so usually I err more on the lazy side

◼   ► more recently of well I guess I'll you

◼   ► know I'll be with my family I'll help

◼   ► out around the house and I'll be present

◼   ► for everybody but then I regret not

◼   ► getting more work done and I don't know

◼   ► I mean I I still have a lot to learn I

◼   ► think and I think they think there comes

◼   ► to mind is I always remember like the

◼   ► insight that I think was most helpful

◼   ► when I was trying to work this out

◼   ► several years ago this is like it's the

◼   ► understanding that my work can hurt my

◼   ► family life as well as my family life

◼   ► can hurt my work that I remember when I

◼   ► was starting out it was easy to kind of

◼   ► think about it as sort most like my

◼   ► family life was the thing that would be

◼   ► hurt from working too much

◼   ► sort of like which is makes sense in

◼   ► some ways coming from like a more

◼   ► corporate environment where kind of like

◼   ► workaholism is more the typical problem

◼   ► that you would be worried about where

◼   ► you work too much and you never see your

◼   ► kids and all this kind of thing and I

◼   ► remember when I first started that was

◼   ► what I was worried about that my work

◼   ► was gonna hurt my family and then I also

◼   ► then when I found though it's like it

◼   ► goes the other way exactly in the same

◼   ► way that my family life can also hurt my

◼   ► work and its interests and like both of

◼   ► these states are such both of so like

◼   ► these things are undesirable like I

◼   ► don't want one to hurt the one or the

◼   ► one to hurt the other like that's why we

◼   ► call it work-life balance I guess like

◼   ► if you're trying to find something in

◼   ► the middle and in the end what I end up

◼   ► finding is it's like the old saying good

◼   ► fences make good neighbors like the best

◼   ► way that I found to be able to improve

◼   ► my work-life balance is to build Walt's

◼   ► or build fences between my work life and

◼   ► my family life both physically in terms

◼   ► of where I work

◼   ► of my time in terms of when I work in

◼   ► terms of the things that I do when I'm

◼   ► in one place versus the other and only

◼   ► when I've been able to kind of really

◼   ► split the two in part in in half if I

◼   ► found it to be at all functional because

◼   ► otherwise I'm always you always have

◼   ► like the guilt on one side or the guilt

◼   ► on the other and that's like it's

◼   ► neither productive nor helpful yeah I

◼   ► think that's probably where I have to

◼   ► explore like the fencing off both

◼   ► physical and like you know scheduling

◼   ► wise because I'm just I'm terrible at

◼   ► that you know I I work in a home office

◼   ► my wife is here with me much of the time

◼   ► my kid is here with me much of the time

◼   ► he goes to school but you know that's

◼   ► not every day and that's not all day and

◼   ► and I work it out and any hour of the

◼   ► day you know I will work in the morning

◼   ► sometimes I'll work at night sometimes

◼   ► like it just goes all over the place and

◼   ► and there's really no boundaries

◼   ► to when and where and how I get work

◼   ► done and as a result it is hard to have

◼   ► like long uninterrupted spans or it's

◼   ► not be thinking about work when I'm not

◼   ► at work you know it's it's hard to

◼   ► maintain his balance yeah and I think

◼   ► the thing that I found most helpful like

◼   ► along those lines is that as an example

◼   ► I and work every day at 5:00 p.m. and

◼   ► you would have a martini on the deck

◼   ► yeah and then I go and have a martini on

◼   ► the deck exactly but I found that that

◼   ► one little change had the biggest impact

◼   ► on my work-life balance like before that

◼   ► it was kind of this squishy wishy washy

◼   ► like oh but if I'm like in the zone and

◼   ► I really want to keep going or that's me

◼   ► whatever it's like you have this kind of

◼   ► this feeling of like well it's just you

◼   ► know I will work until I'm finished type

◼   ► of concept and the reality is like I'm

◼   ► never finished there's never a perfect

◼   ► opportunity to be like yes I have

◼   ► exactly finished tied this function up

◼   ► in a bow and now I'm gonna go upstairs

◼   ► and have dinner and you know be with my

◼   ► family

◼   ► and so we ended up deciding like and I

◼   ► would drive my wife crazy - when it's

◼   ► like she has no idea when I'm gonna be

◼   ► home when I'm gonna when went what time

◼   ► we should do dinner what time the kids

◼   ► should we expect you know their daddy to

◼   ► be back yeah like a three-hour window

◼   ► like I'm gonna be doing something

◼   ► between 5:00 and 9:00 whenever my brain

◼   ► turn finally turns off yeah and so we

◼   ► found this like you know what it's like

◼   ► need to have a regular schedule and so

◼   ► like I come downstairs which we'll get

◼   ► to in a minute about workspace but like

◼   ► I come downstairs to start work sometime

◼   ► like is much more squishy like sometime

◼   ► between maybe 8:30 and 9:30 depending on

◼   ► what's going on in the morning but I

◼   ► always finished exactly 5:00 and that

◼   ► really helps to be able to say like if

◼   ► it's past five o'clock I'm not working

◼   ► unless obviously the units are like the

◼   ► exceptional situation of like you know

◼   ► some server explodes and I really need

◼   ► to go and do something but if beyond the

◼   ► the extraordinary search your

◼   ► circumstance that's what I do and for me

◼   ► that was really helpful to say like if

◼   ► it's past 5:00 I'm off work like I don't

◼   ► really need to worry about work I'll

◼   ► worry about it the next day and if it's

◼   ► before 5:00 I should be working like it

◼   ► helps on the other side if well if

◼   ► saying if things seem like they're going

◼   ► a bit tricky with you know or like I

◼   ► just want to be with my family or

◼   ► whatever it's like nope it's not five

◼   ► o'clock and I can look forward to it in

◼   ► that sense and then once I'm past it I

◼   ► can say nope that's like that's the

◼   ► firewall against it on the other side

◼   ► and having that kind of regular schedule

◼   ► like when I'm safe are there something

◼   ► magical about five o'clock like it could

◼   ► be any time but having a schedule that

◼   ► when I'm working I'm working and when

◼   ► I'm not I'm not has been the only thing

◼   ► that was been probably the biggest

◼   ► impact in our ability to kind of stay

◼   ► stay sane around having complete

◼   ► flexibility about our schedule all right

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◼   ► under the radar and all of real afm so

◼   ► one thing i wanted to extend on a little

◼   ► bit is sort of the extension of the

◼   ► concept of having a defined work

◼   ► schedule that separates your work life

◼   ► and your physical life is that works in

◼   ► some ways but you also what i found it

◼   ► only really works when you're able to

◼   ► physically separate yourself as well

◼   ► from the place that you go to work and

◼   ► the place that you go to not work and

◼   ► i've de tried all manner of things to do

◼   ► this and I when I first went independent

◼   ► it was kind of really are the house

◼   ► where we lived in didn't really work for

◼   ► this where it was a split foyer house

◼   ► and so they're only two levels and so no

◼   ► matter what there was always something

◼   ► that wasn't my office and next door to

◼   ► me no matter where I went and went in

◼   ► the house and for a while I actually got

◼   ► office space outside of my house so that

◼   ► I could do this like even though I could

◼   ► work from home I found like a teeny

◼   ► little like office down the road from

◼   ► where I live and I'd go there

◼   ► because in now I've thankfully we've

◼   ► changed houses and I have a place that's

◼   ► like I'm in this office way off in the

◼   ► corner in the basement that there's

◼   ► nothing else around the board I found is

◼   ► if I don't have a separate place to go

◼   ► like if I'm working in working my

◼   ► bedroom or at the kitchen table or

◼   ► something like that

◼   ► I was never it's so hard to keep your

◼   ► mind focused on the thing that you're

◼   ► supposed to be focused on and it's the

◼   ► one of the things that I've think iff is

◼   ► like give advice to somebody who is

◼   ► starting out working from home going

◼   ► independent becoming a consultant any of

◼   ► these things like find a place somewhere

◼   ► in your house that you only use for work

◼   ► miss goes when you're there it's like

◼   ► okay I'm here I've got all my it's all

◼   ► set up exactly how I like it for working

◼   ► and I'm working and when I leave there's

◼   ► I don't come back here unless I'm

◼   ► working you know it's like I don't sit

◼   ► here and go through the family pictures

◼   ► and organize them into albums on my work

◼   ► computer I do that on another place like

◼   ► all in any of the things that I needed

◼   ► to do aren't done at my work at my

◼   ► workstation my workstation is for

◼   ► working and that helps both me to be

◼   ► focused and also if you have children or

◼   ► other people in your house who are going

◼   ► to want your attention it means that you

◼   ► can fight they should have has this

◼   ► great benefit of being able to say like

◼   ► no no it's like he's in is like daddy's

◼   ► in the office don't bother him and you

◼   ► know obviously there's exception to that

◼   ► if something awesome and cool that's

◼   ► going on in the house and that I really

◼   ► want to know about and I should know

◼   ► about it's awesome that I'm available

◼   ► and here to see it but in by and large

◼   ► it's very easy to have that obvious vis

◼   ► visual separation it's like nope he's

◼   ► not here he's at work and then I come

◼   ► home and my wife and I always joke about

◼   ► this too because we'll actually use the

◼   ► terms like are you home like if I all go

◼   ► up I go upstairs at 4:00 like at 4:00

◼   ► o'clock to get a snack or something

◼   ► it's like are you home or are you not

◼   ► and it's like I actually I'm not home

◼   ► yet

◼   ► even though obviously I'm standing in

◼   ► Mike I'm standing in the kitchen in our

◼   ► in my home but it's like nope I'm not

◼   ► home I just need to needed to grab

◼   ► something and then I go back to work and

◼   ► it's like it's as though like I've left

◼   ► like I've got in the car my commute

◼   ► rather you in a car and driving down the

◼   ► road now he's walking down the stairs

◼   ► but I still have one that there's still

◼   ► something separate physically between my

◼   ► work and my not work that's really good

◼   ► I like that a lot they just gotta find a

◼   ► place in your house that you can do that

◼   ► yeah well in our unfinished basement

◼   ► maybe or our hot attic that should be

◼   ► good perfect well we'll figure something

◼   ► out I'll just put up a giant scream in

◼   ► the middle in the middle the room yeah

◼   ► and obviously yeah like everyone's

◼   ► houses are different denser like weather

◼   ► exactly how much you can do that and how

◼   ► practical it is to do it but it's it's

◼   ► just one of those things that it's all

◼   ► about trying to make it like make a

◼   ► clear line between when you're working

◼   ► and when you're not working and so the

◼   ► more that you can make the place that

◼   ► you work a place that he only is a place

◼   ► that you work like the better that will

◼   ► be and it's like trying to do weird

◼   ► sometimes it is feels a bit silly but

◼   ► like it's what I try and do like we have

◼   ► an upstairs office that we do other like

◼   ► other like homework things with rather

◼   ► than doing them in the same place that I

◼   ► do regular work which you know his works

◼   ► that works for us to have a bit you know

◼   ► in about two rooms that we can do that

◼   ► with but even if you don't have these X

◼   ► pace it's just kind of something to be

◼   ► aware of yeah definitely the other thing

◼   ► that I think is helpful to think about

◼   ► with work/life balance like taking a

◼   ► step back so like things like making

◼   ► good boundaries physically between your

◼   ► work in terms of your daily schedule in

◼   ► terms of your work space are helpful but

◼   ► there are also things that are kind of

◼   ► like there the the tactical day-in

◼   ► day-out kind of things that you can do

◼   ► but if you really want to have a good

◼   ► work-life balance I think you kind of

◼   ► also have to take the step back and look

◼   ► at it and say like what are the things

◼   ► that are constraining my ability to have

◼   ► a good work-life balance and I think

◼   ► about in like making sure I'm making

◼   ► conscious choices about those things

◼   ► like one thing I always remember is when

◼   ► I used to do consulting and this

◼   ► probably applies mostly to consulting

◼   ► but applies to a lot of things is when

◼   ► I'd start out I would respect my you

◼   ► like work email all the day like all the

◼   ► time so essentially if I'm awake I'll

◼   ► probably have checked my email in the

◼   ► last 20 minutes and I would respond to

◼   ► clients who D mail me something at

◼   ► whenever I saw it you know they would

◼   ► send me an email hey did you get a

◼   ► chance to

◼   ► check this thing out or you know fix

◼   ► this thing and I'd respond it and I'd do

◼   ► it on the weekend late at night early in

◼   ► the morning if your first thing I when I

◼   ► wake up I pick up my phone and I'd

◼   ► respond and what I realized though is

◼   ► that I'm competin for for my clients

◼   ► because now they're as soon as you do it

◼   ► once they'll expect you to always do it

◼   ► and if you don't that can become like

◼   ► weird strangely problematic where

◼   ► they're like oh I emailed you and you

◼   ► didn't respond it's like yeah you

◼   ► emailed me at 8 o'clock on a Friday I

◼   ► didn't respond because I'm not working

◼   ► but if you don't actually follow through

◼   ► with that you have this terrible

◼   ► boundary problem and like these you're

◼   ► making these commitments that you may

◼   ► not consciously be making to being

◼   ► available at times that you really

◼   ► shouldn't be available and then that may

◼   ► also like that might make certain people

◼   ► not able to work with you and I think

◼   ► you have to choose that like when you're

◼   ► choosing what you're working on the

◼   ► people you choose to work for or with

◼   ► matter just as much as anything else

◼   ► you're deciding because like certain

◼   ► like certain employers will want you to

◼   ► be a workaholic and we want you to be

◼   ► 24/7 on-call for email even if they

◼   ► don't technically say that that will be

◼   ► what they expect and it will seem it'll

◼   ► look bad if you don't do that whereas

◼   ► other employers or clients are more

◼   ► healthy themselves with their work-life

◼   ► balance and and they will you know they

◼   ► will be okay if you don't answer a

◼   ► Friday night email until Monday morning

◼   ► you know and and it's important if you

◼   ► can find those people and choose to work

◼   ► with them and you know it really matters

◼   ► a lot who you work for who your clients

◼   ► are yeah and and it's and then in

◼   ► addition to man mattering who they are

◼   ► it's like that you have to decide these

◼   ► things like it feels silly at first like

◼   ► I remember the first time I summer never

◼   ► ate but I realized that I was doing this

◼   ► and I would see like I would want to hit

◼   ► reply and start composing an email back

◼   ► and they're like wait it's nine o'clock

◼   ► on a Friday I should not do this and

◼   ► sometimes I'd like write it out but just

◼   ► leave it in drafts and at 9 a.m. on

◼   ► Monday morning I just go into my draft

◼   ► and I'd sit there and send them all

◼   ► which is if it's like is it really it

◼   ► was like a good like a baby

◼   ► step towards not actually checking it in

◼   ► the first place but giving the illusion

◼   ► of health via exactly but it at least

◼   ► the very least I was setting their

◼   ► expectation that I wasn't available

◼   ► right you like I always remember also

◼   ► with consulting you'd have these weird

◼   ► things where you start having like email

◼   ► conversations back and forth with your

◼   ► client at strange hours because you send

◼   ► them something and then they are sitting

◼   ► at their computer to having poor

◼   ► work-life balance and they were spawning

◼   ► back as you go back and forth and it's

◼   ► like you're having this conversation in

◼   ► at a time when you like you would never

◼   ► schedule a call with your client at that

◼   ► time you'd never think like oh this is

◼   ► like 10 o'clock on the weekend this is a

◼   ► perfect time for us to have a chat but

◼   ► it's like this little trap that just

◼   ► like sucks you in and then you're kind

◼   ► of you have to work really hard to break

◼   ► that pattern and get out of that cycle

◼   ► and then lastly the other boss sort of

◼   ► like taking a step back thing that I

◼   ► think you can do to improve your

◼   ► work-life balance is to look at your

◼   ► business and see if there are places

◼   ► that you can reduce the degree to which

◼   ► your revenue is directly tied to your

◼   ► time which in some ways is maybe an

◼   ► obvious thing to say like it's like if

◼   ► you can make money without doing

◼   ► anything that's better this is the

◼   ► promise of like every back page ad in a

◼   ► crappy magazine like make money while

◼   ► you sleep

◼   ► exactly but in a not sketchy way like

◼   ► looking at your business and saying like

◼   ► the biggest things that are going to get

◼   ► in the way of you having a productive

◼   ► work-life balance are things where you

◼   ► don't have control like you you don't

◼   ► have the control over your time in the

◼   ► same way like if you have a K perfectly

◼   ► and sort of did split between your time

◼   ► and your money then you can choose

◼   ► exactly how you want your day to go

◼   ► because your time isn't the thing that

◼   ► you're selling it that isn't the

◼   ► important thing you know so like if you

◼   ► look at you if you look at a business

◼   ► like I think conceptually most

◼   ► businesses kind of fall into two

◼   ► categories there's kind of like prepaid

◼   ► work you know things like consulting or

◼   ► even this podcast where we get paid by a

◼   ► sponsor for the episode but we have to

◼   ► make the episode and then once we've

◼   ► made it we get no more benefit from it

◼   ► two things that are kind of like post

◼   ► pay

◼   ► so like a product or a subscription or

◼   ► if you have a retainer in consulting

◼   ► like those types of things where you're

◼   ► making money without you having to do

◼   ► something directly usually it's because

◼   ► you've done something else in the past

◼   ► but in the present you know you're kind

◼   ► of living off the interest from and the

◼   ► last things and this was something that

◼   ► was the bit like when I made the shift

◼   ► from consulting to products which is now

◼   ► what I do almost 100% essentially of my

◼   ► of my income is from products is it I

◼   ► wanted to do it because I felt like if I

◼   ► didn't I wouldn't have control over my

◼   ► time because it was always going to be

◼   ► beholden to somebody else and so I had

◼   ► to look at my business and say you know

◼   ► what if I can do this if I can keep

◼   ► pulling even if it's just 20% of my

◼   ► businesses is you know is coming from

◼   ► something other than my time I'm gonna

◼   ► be able to make Bank my work-life

◼   ► balance

◼   ► 20% better or at least have the

◼   ► opportunity to make it 20% better like

◼   ► if I don't follow through at that point

◼   ► like that's on me

◼   ► if I at this point have complete control

◼   ► over my time and I have a word bad

◼   ► work-life balance like there's no one to

◼   ► blame but myself I can't blame my boss I

◼   ► can't blame my clients I can only blame

◼   ► me but on the flip side I have the

◼   ► ability to control that and so looking

◼   ► at your business or looking at the way

◼   ► that you're structuring how you work

◼   ► such that you have you can break those

◼   ► ties is like sort of like the little

◼   ► catalyst that allows you to make any of

◼   ► the changes that we've talked about in

◼   ► this episode because if you had if you

◼   ► don't have that control then you can't

◼   ► change anything in the first you know

◼   ► anyway and so you're kind of stuck yeah

◼   ► I think that separating your your income

◼   ► and your business health from your time

◼   ► spent is obviously like that that is the

◼   ► Holy Grail but it isn't that

◼   ► unachievable like it's actually very

◼   ► doable and it might take a while and it

◼   ► might not be a hundred percent of of

◼   ► your income being separated out that way

◼   ► and being independent of your time and

◼   ► and you know you do have to still work

◼   ► on it occasionally like you can't like

◼   ► neglect things forever but anything that

◼   ► you can do to like build up you know a

◼   ► back catalogue of things that pay you or

◼   ► build up recurring revenue streams or

◼   ► things that are yeah things that are

◼   ► decoupled at all

◼   ► you will benefit from significantly

◼   ► exactly and it took me four and a half

◼   ► five years to be able to stop doing

◼   ► consulting like but it was a conscious

◼   ► choice that this is where I'm getting

◼   ► I'm heading I'm pointing my business in

◼   ► this direction and that sort of because

◼   ► at the end of it I like the result and

◼   ► so that made the work to get there

◼   ► worthwhile excellent alright thank you

◼   ► for listening everybody and it's all the

◼   ► time we have so we will talk to you next

◼   ► week bye