Under the Radar

◼   ► welcome to under the radar our show but

◼   ► independent iOS app development I'm

◼   ► Marco Arment and I'm David Smith under

◼   ► the radar is never longer than 30

◼   ► minutes so let's get started so today

◼   ► what I wanted to talk through is and the

◼   ► broader concepts but something that

◼   ► started from a sort of my initial

◼   ► planning for getting ready to go in a 10

◼   ► WWDC this year where one of the things

◼   ► that I was thinking about is the

◼   ► interactions that I tend to have at the

◼   ► can at the actual convention at the you

◼   ► know on the floor and something that has

◼   ► happened several times is I'll you know

◼   ► be walking around and I'll just randomly

◼   ► bump into somebody and start to you know

◼   ► chatting and it's like as we start

◼   ► talking eventually we get to a point

◼   ► that they're like oh wait you're the guy

◼   ► who did pedometer plus plus like I love

◼   ► that app or something like that where

◼   ► you have this interaction where it's

◼   ► like eventually they do sort of it did

◼   ► this there's this discovery of a comment

◼   ► and like a common ground it's almost an

◼   ► accident

◼   ► yeah it's and that accidental nature of

◼   ► it is the problem is the problem that I

◼   ► wanted to talk about today because what

◼   ► I've been thinking about is like well

◼   ► what most companies do when they're

◼   ► encounter this kind of a thing it's like

◼   ► if you walk around WTC you will see

◼   ► people wearing like 1password shirts and

◼   ► you know they work fragile bits or

◼   ► you'll see you know companies with omni

◼   ► shirts on or whatever and you'll know

◼   ► they work for Omni and so if you like on

◼   ► here and when we talk to someone who

◼   ► works there like you know how to go how

◼   ► to go about doing that but it feels

◼   ► weird in some ways at least initially it

◼   ► started feeling weird and I was like try

◼   ► and like make shirts that say you know

◼   ► it's like my apps and have like

◼   ► phenomena or plus plus or sleep plus

◼   ► plus or under the radar even or even

◼   ► just my name like put on it and it it's

◼   ► weird because it feels a bit like like

◼   ► like self-promotion in that way feels a

◼   ► bit odd and the more I've thought about

◼   ► this I need to probably not think about

◼   ► it in those ways but it seemed like an

◼   ► interesting topic to talk about because

◼   ► I struggle with this with this weird

◼   ► tension of it's like if I were if I was

◼   ► working for a bigger company and I was

◼   ► going to a convention

◼   ► that company said hey you know here's

◼   ► you know five t-shirts that have a

◼   ► various products on it would love it if

◼   ► you could wear them during the thing and

◼   ► you know see if that can you know start

◼   ► a conversation help a conversation along

◼   ► like I wouldn't feel weird about doing

◼   ► that it would be like yeah totally you

◼   ► know I'm a team player let's do this

◼   ► but when it's like me promoting myself

◼   ► it feels a bit weird and that tension is

◼   ► a strange thing I think in some ways

◼   ► it's unique to being an indie but I

◼   ► think a lot of people probably struggle

◼   ► with this type of thing when your brand

◼   ► is more personal rather than sort of

◼   ► more corporate yeah I mean this is I

◼   ► think a lot of this plays into what I

◼   ► think would probably be like the

◼   ► stereotypical geek personality that many

◼   ► people in our industry I think us

◼   ► included I have which is you know it's

◼   ► it's hard for people with this

◼   ► personality type to self-promote it's

◼   ► hard for them to like brag about

◼   ► themselves and promote promote their

◼   ► work a lot of times and this is

◼   ► something I had to just get over over

◼   ► the years honestly and I'm still not

◼   ► great at it but it's it's really hard

◼   ► for certain personality types to to be

◼   ► willing to do that and I think what it

◼   ► what helps to to distinguish here

◼   ► between like times you should and

◼   ► shouldn't do that or wet we know when or

◼   ► where you shouldn't shouldn't do that is

◼   ► to recognize that there are lots of

◼   ► situations in which you know like like

◼   ► walking around WTC tons of people there

◼   ► are wearing their own t-shirts like

◼   ► there that is if there's ever a time in

◼   ► place to wear your own t-shirt of the

◼   ► app you make or the company you work for

◼   ► it's at a conference full of other

◼   ► people doing the exact same thing like

◼   ► the the cost of you doing that the risk

◼   ► of you doing that is absolutely lowest

◼   ► they're at during that week and there's

◼   ► also you know situations like like if

◼   ► you are at a you know a tech meetup or

◼   ► you know it just any place where you're

◼   ► where you're know you're gonna be

◼   ► stranded by other software developers or

◼   ► other people in your in your business

◼   ► who are probably going to also be doing

◼   ► the same thing like that's totally fine

◼   ► and in fact

◼   ► not only are you like you know not only

◼   ► will will the world tolerate your

◼   ► self-promotion during that time but as

◼   ► you mentioned like for purposes like

◼   ► starting up conversations or trying to

◼   ► meet people who make the apps you like

◼   ► it's actually helpful you actually

◼   ► you're actually helping people find you

◼   ► who want to find you or who are

◼   ► interested in your in your app or or who

◼   ► know who you are or who want to know who

◼   ► you are so it's like you're actually

◼   ► helping help by by being self

◼   ► promotional in certain contexts such as

◼   ► those kind of you know real-life

◼   ► gatherings of similar types of people

◼   ► and that you know it's just one of those

◼   ► things where you just kind of have to

◼   ► you just kind of had to think of it from

◼   ► the other person's perspective of like

◼   ► if I wear a shirt that identifies me as

◼   ► the maker of this app or that or as the

◼   ► host of the show or whatever is the

◼   ► other person more likely to think I'm

◼   ► being like an arrogant jerk or more

◼   ► likely to recognize that from for people

◼   ► who want to who are who are who are

◼   ► interested in saying hi to me and and

◼   ► will and that'll make their job actually

◼   ► easier and they will appreciate that

◼   ► rather than trying to guess wait is that

◼   ► underscore there's just a line on a

◼   ► shirt but that could be an underscore or

◼   ► it could just be like a line because

◼   ► it's kind of hard to put your name on a

◼   ► shirt so I you know like there are so

◼   ► many contexts like that in which you're

◼   ► actually helping the other people by

◼   ► doing that yeah and it's it's an

◼   ► interesting thing too because I think

◼   ► about the tension your soul I can

◼   ► examine that there's a similar example

◼   ► that's also a bit of a tension is like

◼   ► the degree to which you talk about or

◼   ► like mentioned when people say nice

◼   ► things about your products right it's

◼   ► like similar in this way where if

◼   ► there's this strange tension around you

◼   ► notice it's like if someone writes a

◼   ► nice review of one of one of my apps do

◼   ► I like you know put that on Twitter put

◼   ► on my blog it's like that feels a little

◼   ► weird like retweeting when people say

◼   ► nice things about you like that's a

◼   ► little gauche I guess like it's not

◼   ► great but I think it what I've been

◼   ► trying to work through is why that feels

◼   ► weird versus what I'm increasingly

◼   ► coming to grips with about being fine

◼   ► with of the like it's good for people

◼   ► too

◼   ► know who you are and to know what you're

◼   ► associated with and like that's just

◼   ► building a brand versus being it's like

◼   ► what can you start to get to the

◼   ► question of what kind of brand do you

◼   ► want to be and that's I think the more

◼   ► interesting place to or like I need to

◼   ► get comfortable with like the first step

◼   ► like I am I am a brand like I have a

◼   ► following online I do things in a public

◼   ► in a public way like I make apps that

◼   ► are used by hundreds of thousands of

◼   ► people like that's an important thing

◼   ► and I need just be okay with that and

◼   ► it's like okay well what kind of brand

◼   ► do I want to be because even big

◼   ► companies have different brands that

◼   ► makes like they have different

◼   ► personalities to them like there's ones

◼   ► that are very kind of like a casual or

◼   ► very formal or very inviting and you

◼   ► know even down to the things like I'm

◼   ► thinking about like I'm working on that

◼   ► you know what what design should I have

◼   ► for like my shirt and it's like well

◼   ► it's probably gonna be kind of geeky

◼   ► like I'm going to make something that's

◼   ► a little bit that that's not just like a

◼   ► picture of an app icon like it's going

◼   ► to be a little bit silly and that

◼   ► probably speaks more to like the

◼   ► personality of my company in my own

◼   ► personality and I think that works but

◼   ► it's like an important thing that I

◼   ► really if it's kind of bad in some ways

◼   ► like I've been doing this for so long

◼   ► but I'm still have these like these

◼   ► basic elements of marketing that I'm

◼   ► just not really comfortable with or have

◼   ► really thought through I mean I think it

◼   ► really does have a lot to do with the

◼   ► context you know as I said earlier like

◼   ► you know there are some context in which

◼   ► people actually are being helped by by

◼   ► your marketing and you know - like your

◼   ► example of like do you retweet things

◼   ► that are complimentary in the context of

◼   ► people who follow you on twitter who are

◼   ► going to see this they don't need that

◼   ► that that is not really helping them to

◼   ► hear how awesome you are because they

◼   ► already follow you they already think

◼   ► you're awesome they don't need to see

◼   ► everyone else thinking you're awesome

◼   ► and you're retweeting that and it just

◼   ► makes you look arrogant but if you have

◼   ► a page for your product like a webpage

◼   ► or even like people who could use the

◼   ► description field on the app store for

◼   ► this purpose put-put

◼   ► endorsements they're like put positive

◼   ► reviews like the way people pull out

◼   ► call quotes like like you know people

◼   ► like people do a movie posters

◼   ► and you know put in the ellipses so

◼   ► everything sounds good you know I think

◼   ► like if if prominent people or

◼   ► publications or anybody really says

◼   ► something nice about you yet maybe don't

◼   ► retweet it but put it on your marketing

◼   ► page because in that kind of context

◼   ► that is not only appropriate but can be

◼   ► helpful to people who are visiting to

◼   ► kind of see like you know who else has

◼   ► vetted this app who you know is are

◼   ► there any big publications or names that

◼   ► I've heard of who've said nice things

◼   ► about this like that's actually useful

◼   ► information in that context so I think

◼   ► you know it's it's tempting to just step

◼   ► back and say well I I don't feel

◼   ► comfortable doing any of this so I'm

◼   ► just gonna let people find my stuff but

◼   ► people won't find your stuff like that's

◼   ► not how this works and that's that's

◼   ► kind of it's it's almost a naive view of

◼   ► like how how this world works now that

◼   ► it's very tempting to to think it's a

◼   ► very appealing notion to think that you

◼   ► know I can just put something good out

◼   ► there and it'll it'll get found people

◼   ► will find it and sometimes that does

◼   ► really happen but it really helps a lot

◼   ► if you can grease the wheels a little

◼   ► bit if you could get a lot more people

◼   ► to look at it first and the way you do

◼   ► that is is some kind of promotion some

◼   ► kind of telling people what you're about

◼   ► and I think the line that has to be

◼   ► drawn is figuring out when such

◼   ► promotion would be considered

◼   ► inappropriate and not doing it in those

◼   ► places but then finding the

◼   ► opportunities where it is appropriate or

◼   ► where it is even helpful and trying to

◼   ► focus your efforts there and that's that

◼   ► isn't always an easy line for a lot of

◼   ► people to find you know and certain

◼   ► certain products make an easier harder

◼   ► certain personality types make that

◼   ► easier or harder to it to figure out

◼   ► where that line is but there are places

◼   ► where it is totally appropriate to

◼   ► market yourself and to market your app

◼   ► and it isn't really if you think about

◼   ► it it isn't even really that hard to

◼   ► think about what those places might be

◼   ► you know obviously there's conferences

◼   ► and person things and I would say

◼   ► anywhere where like you're going to a

◼   ► meeting and everybody like passes out

◼   ► business cards that's not that's not

◼   ► what I'm talking about that's just

◼   ► waste of paper but that is actually a

◼   ► thing I've been wondering it's like

◼   ► should I have business cards like I've

◼   ► met business cards in years I I think in

◼   ► our business the answer of generally is

◼   ► no yeah but like this is every now and

◼   ► I'm like I wonder if I'll at some point

◼   ► I'll run into somebody who would be

◼   ► important to be able to for them to know

◼   ► like reach back out to me and it's like

◼   ► I have no I have nothing to give you is

◼   ► like I can write my name on your hand

◼   ► like that's all I've got like it's not

◼   ► it's not great but it's the same kind of

◼   ► thing because like there are

◼   ► opportunities like that like what you're

◼   ► just saying it's like having those

◼   ► contexts where it's completely

◼   ► appropriate to interact in a marketing

◼   ► way and say like it's like I'm this

◼   ► person here's my app and I have

◼   ► something to hand to them like it's if

◼   ► you went to a trade show and had a booth

◼   ► like you'll have things to hand out to

◼   ► people because it's a context rupee if

◼   ► someone wants to receive that you want

◼   ► to be able to give it to them right

◼   ► exactly and that's like there are so

◼   ► many contexts like that in which your

◼   ► self-promotion is welcome or helpful and

◼   ► so for instance we talked in the past

◼   ► about about pitching the press on your

◼   ► app this is a great example of this kind

◼   ► of thing where you know a web site that

◼   ► posts links to things and reviews things

◼   ► every day like daring fireball or Mac

◼   ► stories or I'm or these sites need

◼   ► things to post every day you're not

◼   ► putting them out by suggesting hey might

◼   ► want me and maybe check this out that I

◼   ► just made it it solves this problem like

◼   ► that you're not like you know I mean you

◼   ► can be you can do it badly in a way this

◼   ► seems spamming but if you just do it

◼   ► like a human in a respectful way it

◼   ► tends to be welcomed and that isn't to

◼   ► say that they are guaranteed to to link

◼   ► to you to cover you to give you a

◼   ► positive review but you have to at least

◼   ► do the first step of like letting people

◼   ► know about your app because sites like

◼   ► that need things to post every day so by

◼   ► you promoting your app to them you are

◼   ► not annoying them you are helping them

◼   ► do their job like that so and so find

◼   ► places we're hearing about your app will

◼   ► help people do a job in a way that is

◼   ► not spammy or annoying yeah so like for

◼   ► me like you know blind the email blasts

◼   ► when people blast email all over me I

◼   ► don't I don't appreciate that very much

◼   ► and one of the main reasons is because

◼   ► like the the lists that people tend to I

◼   ► assume by often include bad addresses

◼   ► things like overcast support a dress a

◼   ► hat like that's not an appropriate place

◼   ► to send promotional stuff about your

◼   ► service to make developers lives easier

◼   ► but you know if like people run websites

◼   ► that review apps and there's no there's

◼   ► a contact form there or there's an email

◼   ► address there for like hey hey send your

◼   ► you know PR inquiries or whatever here

◼   ► like that is the appropriate place that

◼   ► they're asking you to do that there so

◼   ► find places like that and and use that

◼   ► to your advantage because honestly in

◼   ► this business you have to be some degree

◼   ► of self promotional because there's so

◼   ► much out there there's so many other

◼   ► apps there's so many other services

◼   ► there's so many other consultants no

◼   ► matter what you're doing in the in the

◼   ► mobile app development business it's

◼   ► crowded these days and you have to stand

◼   ► out somehow there are so many people out

◼   ► there who don't do any reasonable amount

◼   ► of self-promotion who can't do it right

◼   ► or who don't do it right if you can just

◼   ► do that correctly at all you don't even

◼   ► have to be great it just just be ok at

◼   ► it and that will put you in like the top

◼   ► 5% of pretty much everybody else out

◼   ► there doing the exact same thing as you

◼   ► so that helps a lot and I would even

◼   ► argue that if you're the kind of person

◼   ► who who is just really having a hard

◼   ► time with self-promotion and who really

◼   ► can't do it I would argue that you're

◼   ► probably better off working for a

◼   ► company than working on your own because

◼   ► it's such an important part of working

◼   ► on your own that if you can't do it

◼   ► someone else should be doing it for you

◼   ► yeah and I think that's a great part

◼   ► like aspect that I need always need to

◼   ► remind myself about where just because

◼   ► like I got into this business to write

◼   ► software like to sit open Xcode and work

◼   ► in there and just because that's what

◼   ► I'm good at and just because that's what

◼   ► I like like doing most doesn't somehow

◼   ► mean that the other aspects of running a

◼   ► software business like go away that like

◼   ► they're not going to like somehow like

◼   ► oh well that's what I do so I'm just

◼   ► going to do that it's like no there are

◼   ► many aspects to running a business that

◼   ► I have to do and like some of them I can

◼   ► outsource

◼   ► like I have an accountant who files my

◼   ► taxes for me because that's in a very

◼   ► vital important part of my business but

◼   ► it's something that I really don't want

◼   ► to do that's something that she is way

◼   ► better at doing than I am so I have her

◼   ► have someone do that and so when I think

◼   ► about something like marketing which is

◼   ► a which is really but all of this is

◼   ► like this is promotion and publicity and

◼   ► marketing like it there are it's a

◼   ► division within a bigger company it's

◼   ► even if it's not something that I want

◼   ► to do or feel qualified or skilled at

◼   ► doing it's still something that's

◼   ► important for me to get you know develop

◼   ► that skill get better at etc because

◼   ► it's not gonna if it doesn't happen it's

◼   ► not like that's fine it's problematic

◼   ► for my business and in in a big way -

◼   ► its key of having the mindset after that

◼   ► if I don't do this then all the work I'm

◼   ► doing in Xcode is in many ways kind of

◼   ► diminished because fewer people are

◼   ► going to benefit from it you know fewer

◼   ► people are going to see the products I

◼   ► make and that's like I'm sort of like

◼   ► shooting myself in the foot and so it's

◼   ► like it has to be done and so it's like

◼   ► yeah it's these thing weird things are

◼   ► having to relieve think about how can I

◼   ► get better at this like how can I find

◼   ► be ok with and like under you know with

◼   ► marketing myself what are things that I

◼   ► should be doing that I don't you know

◼   ► like a lot of my apps don't have good

◼   ► really great websites or social media

◼   ► presences or things like there are

◼   ► aspects of them that I think about that

◼   ► I'm like should I be doing more in that

◼   ► should I not like does it matter

◼   ► and maybe in our business like

◼   ► specifically in the app store I don't

◼   ► know the degree to which you having a

◼   ► good website matters but it's definitely

◼   ► something that I know I have to keep

◼   ► reminding myself because my default is

◼   ► never gonna be oh like focus ton on

◼   ► marketing because that's not what I'm

◼   ► like good at or skill that and got into

◼   ► this business to do in the first place

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◼   ► that six hours ago people on Twitter

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◼   ► hey your site's down hey your site's to

◼   ► you that's that's

◼   ► not good that's not good for your

◼   ► reputation it's not good for possibly

◼   ► your income if your site is what

◼   ► generates your money it certainly does

◼   ► not look very professional if you have

◼   ► to wait until people on Twitter tell

◼   ► your site is down before you realize

◼   ► it's down with Pingdom you are the first

◼   ► to know it can check your site as often

◼   ► as once a minute and it can text you it

◼   ► can send push notifications it can send

◼   ► emails it can do all those things or

◼   ► some of those things none of those

◼   ► things or some of those things

◼   ► conditionally based on how severe it is

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◼   ► all right so I think it's interesting to

◼   ► to consider you know all these these

◼   ► marketing angles and everything as you

◼   ► know what's appropriate and what's not

◼   ► obviously we can talk about this

◼   ► academically and and it seems like I

◼   ► have a slightly easier time than you do

◼   ► or at least I

◼   ► I started earlier the path towards self

◼   ► promotion so you know at as you as you

◼   ► know all the same things I do you know

◼   ► as you can think about the same things

◼   ► rationally what are the irrational

◼   ► pressures or fears or conflicts that you

◼   ► feel about this that other people might

◼   ► relate to that you know and and can you

◼   ► talk about maybe like just like the

◼   ► feeling side of this like once you know

◼   ► what you should be doing what still

◼   ► stops you from doing it and what might

◼   ► be a way that you could overcome that

◼   ► yeah the one that comes to mind the most

◼   ► and I think this is it's like at the

◼   ► core of so much of these challenges is

◼   ► that feeling of

◼   ► it's like putting yourself out there

◼   ► where I mean I still do every time I

◼   ► write up an email to the press I always

◼   ► have this feeling of like I can be so

◼   ► proud of my app and what it does and how

◼   ► well it works

◼   ► and I'm sitting down to write this to

◼   ► somebody and I get nervous and worried

◼   ► and like what if they don't like it what

◼   ► if they hate it what if they are gonna

◼   ► you know reject me or be mean to me or

◼   ► whatever like you can give these various

◼   ► like you know sort of visceral feelings

◼   ► about

◼   ► that and I think around marketing and a

◼   ► lot of these kind of like self

◼   ► promotional things there is certainly an

◼   ► element of that of this whenever anytime

◼   ► that you are sort of really sort of

◼   ► putting out your name in a way in a

◼   ► public obvious way intentionally drawing

◼   ► attention to yourself it's like you're

◼   ► also setting yourself up for the

◼   ► possibility of someone not liking you

◼   ► and I think the thing that you have to

◼   ► at certain point come to grips with is a

◼   ► like there's always going to be people

◼   ► who don't like you like no matter how

◼   ► likeable you are there's always going to

◼   ► be that and there's a certain amount of

◼   ► just like you have to get Bo be okay

◼   ► with that and not like get your you know

◼   ► your value from other people like you

◼   ► have to you know if I look at something

◼   ► I make and I think it's good then that

◼   ► at a certain point has to be enough that

◼   ► it is a can't it doesn't have to just be

◼   ► validated externally and but then it's

◼   ► also just V being and being aware that

◼   ► that's probably also not what's gonna

◼   ► happen like the number of times I've had

◼   ► the negative version of that you are

◼   ► like I can remember them because that's

◼   ► just the way human nature is that we

◼   ► think like the impact of the negative is

◼   ► what is disproportionate the impact are

◼   ► the positive you know hundred people can

◼   ► say a nice thing and one person can say

◼   ► a mean thing and you remember that mean

◼   ► thing but overall like that's not my

◼   ► experience and it's but it's having to

◼   ► overcome the emotional part of that of

◼   ► that feeling of just like that

◼   ► nervousness and the shyness I mean and

◼   ► it's the same thing that happens in in

◼   ► life like I remember we talked about

◼   ► this a couple weeks ago with going to

◼   ► tap YouTube EDC and looks like it's that

◼   ► same feeling of when I'd see someone

◼   ► that I'd recognize it's like oh should I

◼   ► go say hi like I'd love to meet them but

◼   ► being nervous about that and being

◼   ► nervous how the conversation will go and

◼   ► all these types of things when in

◼   ► reality it goes fine like that's just

◼   ► not the that's just not the reality like

◼   ► people are generally very polite and

◼   ► very nice and it'll go well but that

◼   ► certainly is a like a genuine feeling to

◼   ► overcome of that feeling of like is this

◼   ► good enough is it going to go well

◼   ► and so anytime you're drawing attention

◼   ► to yourself like that's just part of the

◼   ► bio that's just part of it but there's

◼   ► definitely that like kind of irrational

◼   ► feeling of like oh no like what if what

◼   ► if people don't like me oh sure I mean

◼   ► and and there's not I mean that's that's

◼   ► hard for like you know III would expect

◼   ► a lot of people who like computers who

◼   ► were roughly our age probably had a

◼   ► rough time socially in school growing up

◼   ► I sure did and it's and a lot of those

◼   ► pressures like come right back to life

◼   ► feeling like you're in high school again

◼   ► or middle school again and like getting

◼   ► socially rejected or romantically

◼   ► rejected and and there's like these

◼   ► deep-rooted scars that so many of us

◼   ► have from from growing up in that kind

◼   ► of situation and so it's really hard to

◼   ► overcome that feeling but the good thing

◼   ► is as you mentioned like you know people

◼   ► are generally nice and polite because

◼   ► you know what we aren't in high school

◼   ► anymore like everyone around us now as

◼   ► like as an adult and usually they're a

◼   ► lot like us similar back and so it's the

◼   ► the chances of like getting really

◼   ► scarred and and and rejected in the ways

◼   ► that we're all like consciously or

◼   ► subconsciously afraid of I think are

◼   ► pretty low you know we're we're adults

◼   ► now we're in we're in an industry now

◼   ► we're like you know we won like this we

◼   ► won the world like we don't have to

◼   ► worry about about about all those like

◼   ► emotional pressures anymore and you know

◼   ► in this industry and the way things work

◼   ► both in person and online you're not

◼   ► likely to get rejected if the worst that

◼   ► you can generally expect is to be

◼   ► ignored or to be lost in in the shuffle

◼   ► because there's just so much out there

◼   ► and that's you can't really if that

◼   ► happens and it will it happens to all of

◼   ► us you can't really take that personally

◼   ► because it's probably not for personal

◼   ► reasons like you know if if Apple

◼   ► doesn't pick you to be featured or if a

◼   ► website doesn't pick you to to write

◼   ► about or doesn't pick your app to review

◼   ► that week it might be because they

◼   ► didn't like it and they looked at it but

◼   ► it's probably not because of that it's

◼   ► probably because they got too much stuff

◼   ► and the order slipped through the cracks

◼   ► or they weren't or whatever yours did

◼   ► that's not that kind of thing they were

◼   ► looking for that week or you know

◼   ► there's so many other reasons that it is

◼   ► generally you know

◼   ► due to if if you if you do get ignored

◼   ► or passed over for something in this

◼   ► business that it's probably not personal

◼   ► it's probably not about your app your

◼   ► app might not even been looked at that's

◼   ► the reality of of getting rejected in

◼   ► this business today is that it's

◼   ► generally due to people being

◼   ► overwhelmed not due to anything personal

◼   ► against you and so the risk of putting

◼   ► yourself out there is is pretty low

◼   ► really and I think it's also that like

◼   ► one of the most impressive things is

◼   ► confidence and whether that is true

◼   ► confidence or kind of like more of a

◼   ► fake it till you make it kind of thing

◼   ► but the like that's something that I

◼   ► think Jen like universally people find

◼   ► impressive like coming back to high

◼   ► school or whatever like it's like the

◼   ► people because like the kids who were

◼   ► confident even if they're like comet

◼   ► like confidently strange are still cool

◼   ► like in in a way that is there is that

◼   ► is like that is the thing that we're

◼   ► sort of in in many ways and this is what

◼   ► I strived I'm sort of striving toward

◼   ► it's like being confident in what I make

◼   ► being confident in so sort of like the

◼   ► person I am and being able to be

◼   ► authentic about that then it is like

◼   ► that's something that's attractive

◼   ► that's something that is interesting and

◼   ► engaging and will start conversations

◼   ► and will open doors and those types of

◼   ► things I mean in some ways it's being

◼   ► hidden it's like even just having the

◼   ► confidence to ship in the first place is

◼   ► a huge thing to have accomplished and in

◼   ► marketing there's that same type of

◼   ► thing it's like that when I run into

◼   ► somebody and they ask me what apps they

◼   ► like in the OPI Co what apps do you say

◼   ► say oh what are you doing oh I'm a cap

◼   ► so have I ever have I heard of any it's

◼   ► like not being like oh probably not like

◼   ► the non confident responsive or it's

◼   ► like oh I make an app called pedometer

◼   ► plus plus it you know and yeah start

◼   ► with that don't even start with I make

◼   ► apps

◼   ► start with I make this particular ad

◼   ► here's what it is here's what's called

◼   ► here's what it does here's why you want

◼   ► it it's exactly and having that

◼   ► confidence that like this is something

◼   ► that they were going to be interested in

◼   ► and maybe they are maybe they won't but

◼   ► it's way better and it's gonna come

◼   ► across so much more appealing in a much

◼   ► more appealing way if you start with

◼   ► that confidence versus being like oh

◼   ► well you know I do stuff

◼   ► I kind of make stuff like that's not

◼   ► appealing that's not that you're not

◼   ► promoting yourself and you're doing your

◼   ► work a discredit as a result exactly all

◼   ► right that's all the time we have for

◼   ► this week everybody see is coming up

◼   ► really quickly now so we'll be talking

◼   ► about that probably more next week I

◼   ► would imagine everyone listening thank

◼   ► you for listening and I will see you at

◼   ► WTC wearing my own shirt nice I hope you

◼   ► do too all right

◼   ► see you next week all right bye