Under the Radar 42: Getting Next Year's Customers
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welcome to under the radar or show about
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independent iOS app development I'm
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Marco Arment and I'm David Smith under
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the radar is never longer than 30
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minutes so let's get started so today we
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wanted to talk a little bit about a
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couple of different topics but largely
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around that the the theme of shutting
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something down and specifically drawing
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on some of the experiences from this
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past week where the app vesper which was
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made by brent simmons dave wiskus and
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John Gruber announced that they are
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going to be closing down after you know
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several your run of being in the App
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Store and they handled that process both
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really well and I think that's something
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that I think we wanted to expand upon a
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little bit and talk about how to
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actually walk through closing something
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down when it's time you know the time
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has come for it to be shut down how to
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do it in a classy and you know good for
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your users kind of way and then also
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they've they've both written a lot of
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post mortems and kind of thoughts about
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the process and some of them are relates
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to the modern App Store and ways of
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pricing things and where things that may
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have worked out differently you know if
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they have it approached the app
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differently would it have been
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successful in a different way I think
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are all very relevant to you know to us
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in our discussion but I think first the
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best place to start is just to talk
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about the way they shut down vesper and
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so you know Brent posted and they didn't
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serve this last update I just think it's
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been quite a while since they had done a
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previous update and they didn't update
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and basically all it does is it adds the
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ability to export all of your data out
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of the app they made the app free so
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that you it just because like why not
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and they've turned off the ability to
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create new sync accounts which and then
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their sync service will be going away
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soon and overall I was when I saw that
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it was like that is just like the classy
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way to do it like they've put in the
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extra effort even though necessarily
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there's nothing not a specific return
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for this effort because the app has
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become now free they put in the effort
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to make it so that if you're an existing
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customer you're taken care of and
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whenever I see you I'm gonna see some
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like that I like I was not surprised
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given the people who are doing this but
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it was a good reminder that there will
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come a time with all of our products
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where we have to just you know probably
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gonna have to you know turn things off
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worth planning for and thinking through
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and then you know probably encourage
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also just the being thoughtful about
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what's best for your customers in that
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situation you know it's it's an
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unfortunate reality that in in this
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business basically nothing is permanent
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this is one of the reasons you know
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going back kind of to the to the big
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picture for a second like the the the
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possibility for the apps we we use and
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possibly depend on to ultimately shut
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down or be sold or whatever the case may
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be to change in a way that either shuts
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them down completely or that make it so
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that we can't or don't want to use them
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anymore really underscores the
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importance of keeping your data if
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possible in open formats or at least
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preserving the option like what vesper
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did to export into open formats and
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there's there some discussion too about
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like whether they are morally obligated
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to open-source it or not I I think in
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Brent's original post he made a pretty
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good case for why like they might
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open-source it but it's not necessarily
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a sure thing that they should or need to
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because like this is really old code
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because it was it was originally written
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for iOS 6 and a lot of it is not
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particularly useful in the modern era of
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like modern iOS capabilities that they
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like now here at the same thing today
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you'd use way less code and ultimately I
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don't believe that anybody is entitled
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to the source could have another
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application if they if they paid five
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bucks for it once two years ago like
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that's that to me is just not not a
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thing I think it's a it's a courtesy if
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you can open-source that it's kind of
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interesting a little bit but it's not
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you know the panacea that some people
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think they need and deserve and and if
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you if it's very important to you to
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have open source stuff if an app goes
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out of business I think the only way you
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can actually do that is to use an app
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that is open source from the beginning
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anyway so you know I've gone through a
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few product transitions myself the only
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thing that's actually shut down is the
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magazine but you know who knows what
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what the future will hold there it's
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tough but it's the reality I mean this
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was an you know vesper was an app that
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that all of its creators were very clear
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that they would have liked to have more
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time to spend working on it they would
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have liked for it to continue and to be
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worth working on but it didn't bring in
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money to be full timing comes to justify
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the work that it would have taken to
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make it really the next level and to
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make the mac app and to make everything
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else it needed that's just how it goes
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sometimes that you know that's just the
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reality of product development sometimes
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it doesn't work out and when you're when
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you're choosing to work on a side
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project like this was for all three of
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its developers it has to somehow justify
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the time you're putting into it and in
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this case also the the money that they
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were paying to host the sync service and
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to end a license the font and so you
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know they had ongoing costs they were
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faced with the problem of time
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investment that it needed and there
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simply wasn't enough revenue coming in
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to make it worth it and that's
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unfortunate on so many levels for so
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many reasons especially with with this
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group of people and with this app
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because it was a very good app and these
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were very high-profile developers who
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they got a lot of good publicity from
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themselves and others because of their
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position and because it was a good app
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and it still didn't work out so I think
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there's a lot we can unpack from this
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and a lot we can learn from this from
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yeah and it's I think there's something
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to to be said that it's it's it is it's
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a very strange thing to say but in a
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small way I find it slightly encouraging
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that the vesper didn't work out and and
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I want to explain that but I mean is any
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project that any of us do even if it has
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everything going for it in terms of you
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you know there's not a lot of things
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that you could kind of imagine or draw
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up that would be like put the app put
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your app if you whatever you're working
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on and in a better place as a starting
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off point then I think what vesper had
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but it's a reminder of how even if you
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have everything going for you and you
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make something awesome that's not
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necessarily going to be enough that like
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and that's in some ways I find that
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encouraging because it's a reminder that
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you it's not but even having all those
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things you want you're not guarantee
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success so even if you don't have those
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things you're in suddenly in a weird way
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much the same in the same boat you know
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your there's going to be a certain a
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certain degree of look about whether
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it's you know whether it's going to hit
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the right group whether you approach
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things in the right way
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I mean in reading through their post
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mortems about the experience it's like
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there's things that they look back and
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they made choices that they would do
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differently now and there are people who
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really understand the AppStore who are
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very smart developers and designers and
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you know they made decisions that in
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some ways they wish they would have
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changed too and I don't have any weird
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way it's like it's nice to have that the
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humanity of that of like yeah it's
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difficult it's tough and it's a good
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reminder that if you know I when I
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launch things if they don't work out the
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way that I might want them to be it's
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like that's just that's just the table
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stakes that's just the reality of the
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game of making software and putting it
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into a market that sometimes it's not
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and it's also a good reminder to of you
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know it's so easy I think to discredit
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an initiative like that that's nice for
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kind of a problem where it's like when
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you see someone punch something and they
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have the big publicity it's like yeah
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that's nice I suppose but like that's
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not a guarantee of success either
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ultimately the work and effort that
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it'll take for something to be
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successful isn't just based on who you
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are that it there's more to it than that
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and that just seems like a good reminder
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that this is as sad as it is as a as an
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event that's exactly it I mean like you
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know I've said for years and nobody
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believes me because I have I'm the
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benefit I'm the beneficiary of publicity
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because I have an audience but I've said
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for years that you know having a built
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an audience or being like a quote famous
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developer or whatever else it does help
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you a lot at launch time it is something
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that can basically guarantee you a
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certain minimum level of success at
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launch but it is not a substitute for a
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good product market fit it is not going
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to save you from market realities and is
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not really going to help you that much
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in the law it'll help a little bit it's
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not gonna help you that much in the long
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term you know in this case Vesper was a
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note-taking app and it was it things a
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little bit differently than another
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note-taking app so it had like a couple
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of you of unique features and design
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choices and also of course it looked
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really nice but you know I was using
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designed more in the feature sense there
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and they did a whole bunch of custom UI
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text field jumbling basically like
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worked to work around UI tech field
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limitations to make it really
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to do what they wanted to right before
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all that stuff became a lot easier so
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they had they had like you know market
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timing problem number one of the hate
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they did a whole lot of work to to hack
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around UI text fields problems right
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before the api's made unnecessary they
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also did a huge amount of design and
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work making a clean simple design
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looking app running on iOS 6 and then
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iOS 7 came in and changed everything
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about design and made a whole bunch of
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that stuff easier later they had the
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issue of when they launched the the
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third-party notes category was a lot
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healthier than it is now because Apple
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Notes was terrible and then in the
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meantime Apple Notes got really good it
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got that big update was it iOS 8 I think
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so yeah with cloud kit I think so they
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came out and it was first using it and
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would dramatically improve the sink
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system and that you didn't have to use
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web dev and I think that was eight yeah
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eight or nine whenever it was you know
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Apple Notes got a ton better like
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massively so and to everyone's great
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surprise I think I mean I don't think
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anybody expected Apple to ever really
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care that much about their Notes app and
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to add the level of features that they
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did but anyway Apple Notes comes out is
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awesome and takes away much of vespers
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market gain or rather much of Esper's
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purpose in the market I think not all of
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it of course because you know there's a
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lot of things that vesper still did
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better for a lot of people but it
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certainly took a lot of the window that
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out of those sales so it was it was
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impacted a lot by the market in general
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but also I think in John Gruber's post
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earlier his big post-mortem about it I
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think he just pointed also that the
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pricing model was just also fairly
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outdated and that's something I think we
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have a lot to say about here so
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originally a five dollar upfront app no
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in-app purchase no recurring revenue
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stream just five dollars and once
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upfront same model I used back in the
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day for instapaper sort of what I used
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at the beginning of overcast but not
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really a very popular model lots of
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people use it especially in the early
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days and the advantages of that model
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are plenty I mean first of all it's very
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as we discussed earlier in earlier
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episodes about pricing in planning paid
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upfront takes basically no work for the
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developer you don't do you don't do
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any in-app purchase code you don't do
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any receipt checking any restore
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purchases any anything really you just
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kind of set the price in iTunes Connect
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and that's it you're done so there's
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lots of advantage of the developer it
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also takes care of a lot of like
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ambiguities of whether somebody bought
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it at the right time or whatever you
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know it it's all a lot of problems there
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it also creates a few problems there is
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no clear way to upgrade pricing there
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you know it people have to pay before
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they can even see the app so you have a
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lot of unhappy people who buy the app
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you get their money and then they kind
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of don't like it so you it's kind of
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like kind of unfair it's not really good
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for customer satisfaction or your
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reputation if the app doesn't live up to
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it and people are unhappy with you and
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then of course the big problem is that
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these days it's really hard to get
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people to pay for apps upfront that
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that's a big one and I think we'll talk
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more about that but first we'll talk
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thank you so much to Linode for
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supporting the show so one thing that I
◼
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wanted to sort of talk a little bit
◼
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through is related to this sort of this
◼
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concept of you know charging five
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dollars upfront and the in my recent
◼
►
experience it's something that I've sort
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of started to wrap my my hands around is
◼
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the concept that is whenever I'm
◼
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building something it is so easy to
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focus on the say the first month that
◼
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the app is going to be in market that
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I'm gonna build something I'm gonna put
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on the App Store and it's gonna go out
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►
and my focus and my thinking and you
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know both around the design the
◼
►
development and everything pricing
◼
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marketing it's all about that first sort
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of wave and in many ways that makes
◼
►
sense that's logical like that's that is
◼
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after you know see you spend months and
◼
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months building something like that
◼
►
first month is really exciting and
◼
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important to say at first day you know
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we're seeing yourself you know hopefully
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you know zoom up the add the charts in
◼
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the app store like that's really cool
◼
►
but in the reality is that like
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sustainable long-term viable businesses
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are not made really at all in that first
◼
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month that in my experience in order for
◼
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you to have something that is viable
◼
►
long term you have to have a model that
◼
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will work a year from now 18 months from
◼
►
now and have an ongoing component to it
◼
►
that works and does what you need it to
◼
►
do and that is I worry that I think
◼
►
we're as I've gone through this there's
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so many I feel like I've had the
◼
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discussion in my mind and out loud
◼
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dozens and dozens of times about oh
◼
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what's the best model for pricing in the
◼
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App Store but at the end of the day I
◼
►
think the simple like question that is
◼
►
probably helpful as we think through
◼
►
these types of things for our own
◼
►
applications is how will I make money a
◼
►
year from now doing what I'm doing and
◼
►
if you don't have a good answer
◼
►
then it's probably not a great you know
◼
►
set up and if you actually remember back
◼
►
one of the early episodes of
◼
►
we're talking about activity plus plus
◼
►
and you know we were going back and
◼
►
forth whether it should be free or paid
◼
►
and there's an activity trapper tracking
◼
►
app that I made and we ended up deciding
◼
►
to do the paid upfront model and there
◼
►
was a variety of reasons for that but
◼
►
nevertheless it was an interesting and
◼
►
recent data point for the same process
◼
►
and what happened is I think which I
◼
►
could have predicted would happen and I
◼
►
was fine with happening but you know the
◼
►
first couple weeks I didn't I was very
◼
►
happy with it and then it very quickly
◼
►
just fell down and is now continuing and
◼
►
in a stable level that that stable level
◼
►
is very close to zero it's not zero it's
◼
►
you know it's just sort of mumbling
◼
►
along on the bottom and if you look at
◼
►
the you know the actual curve of it it's
◼
►
very very minimal income at this point
◼
►
and that for that particular app was
◼
►
fine you know for what I was doing but
◼
►
there's an example of that problem of it
◼
►
if you can't have a good way of making
◼
►
money down the road then your business
◼
►
model is always gonna be stuck and I
◼
►
think that is I think the most
◼
►
fundamental problem with the paid
◼
►
upfront model that we have right now
◼
►
because every it's sort of like it's
◼
►
almost like the opposite of the the
◼
►
marginal cost advantage we know we're
◼
►
over time like once I've made a piece of
◼
►
software I can sell the next copy for
◼
►
free essentially I don't have to build
◼
►
it twice I made it once and I can keep
◼
►
selling it and so you know the marginal
◼
►
cost of that each subsequent purchase
◼
►
goes down for me but in a weird way
◼
►
acquiring your next customer after
◼
►
you've gotten the first one gets
◼
►
incrementally harder as you go and in
◼
►
some in some ways necessarily that you
◼
►
may have that initial burst of people
◼
►
who are interested in it who are you
◼
►
know sort of passionate about you're
◼
►
doing or love in this case they love
◼
►
notes apps or they take lots of notes
◼
►
like you're the easy low-hanging fruit
◼
►
type of customers that you may be able
◼
►
to acquire but then each day you go on
◼
►
from there if you want to be able to
◼
►
have a sustainable and reliable income
◼
►
you have to have a way of getting more
◼
►
and more people and you're starting to
◼
►
get farther and farther from your own
◼
►
you know through your own circles in
◼
►
terms of if you're you know D what we
◼
►
were just saying earlier about well it's
◼
►
easy if you have a built-in audience
◼
►
it's like well that's great
◼
►
that first week but that doesn't help
◼
►
you a month later or a year later when
◼
►
everybody in your circle is aware of it
◼
►
they know about it they've bought it or
◼
►
have not bought it or you know and
◼
►
that's where you find yourself and so
◼
►
that's the thing that the interesting
◼
►
thing that I've started to try and
◼
►
filter my thinking through around
◼
►
pricing and around business models is
◼
►
it's not really caring too much about
◼
►
that first you know that that first
◼
►
period and thinking almost exclusively
◼
►
about a year from now and if you don't
◼
►
if you having a good plan for what that
◼
►
looks like and if you do if you can
◼
►
focus on that I feel like you're in a
◼
►
much better place and maybe you're gonna
◼
►
discount and lose a bit of potential
◼
►
revenue that first week or so but
◼
►
overall you know you'll make them you'll
◼
►
make it back dramatically if you have a
◼
►
much better position years down the road
◼
►
especially if this is something that you
◼
►
want to do long-term exactly I mean you
◼
►
know you have to think about like your
◼
►
from now because like we've like anybody
◼
►
who has ever had a paid app in the store
◼
►
has seen the exact same curve that you
◼
►
that you've seen on activity plus plus
◼
►
and probably many of your other apps
◼
►
which is like that big long spike that
◼
►
first like couple days or week where
◼
►
it's great and then just a pretty quick
◼
►
drop and then kind of a plateau kind of
◼
►
like an asymptotic curve look into zero
◼
►
basically that work kind of stays
◼
►
indefinitely low or gets gradually lower
◼
►
if it isn't at zero yet and you know
◼
►
I've seen that I saw that with many of
◼
►
my apps I saw that with instapaper every
◼
►
every major version I saw it with bug
◼
►
shot the whole thing I I saw it with
◼
►
overcast when when like I longed even
◼
►
though it was free it still had that one
◼
►
time paid purchase so it was it kind of
◼
►
had the same shape it was just a little
◼
►
bit different dynamic but same shape of
◼
►
great first couple of months and then
◼
►
gradual decline you know and and just
◼
►
slowly declining over time and that's
◼
►
one of the reasons I switched to
◼
►
recurring subscription payments for it
◼
►
is because scription payments it's not
◼
►
easy it's it's actually harder to get
◼
►
people to pay that way but at least the
◼
►
curve is going in the other direction
◼
►
and it's not even going that far in the
◼
►
direction and I'm going to have to add
◼
►
more things behind that pay wall to make
◼
►
it more healthy than it is now because
◼
►
right now basically what happened with
◼
►
overcast as a quick aside here the
◼
►
patronage model I was trying to get five
◼
►
percent of users to pay before there
◼
►
were any features when it was just
◼
►
goodwill based I achieved about one and
◼
►
a half percent and it kind of plateaued
◼
►
of that and so when I added dark mode
◼
►
and file upload but is I think it's
◼
►
mostly about dark mode just having those
◼
►
two desirable features behind the
◼
►
paywall rather than nothing made it go
◼
►
from about 1.8 1.9 percent to about 3
◼
►
percent but it is now plateauing at
◼
►
about 3 percent that that that rate has
◼
►
stopped growing and really I needed to
◼
►
be more like 5 percent to really sustain
◼
►
this healthily and so I'm going to have
◼
►
to put more new features behind that and
◼
►
so just so everyone knows like nothing
◼
►
works perfectly like you know I no
◼
►
matter what we say like you know when we
◼
►
long something is here's how we think
◼
►
it's going to go it doesn't always go
◼
►
that way and you know when Vesper
◼
►
launched at 5 bucks up front they
◼
►
thought that was gonna work great
◼
►
because for many people and for a while
◼
►
it worked ok but then the market moved
◼
►
over time they they found that you know
◼
►
they ran into competition and other
◼
►
another issues and it didn't work out so
◼
►
well in the end so one thing that I
◼
►
would definitely say is to basically
◼
►
keep your mind and options open on
◼
►
pricing and and how you make money
◼
►
because even if you pick a certain model
◼
►
at the beginning you will probably have
◼
►
to change that and what and what you
◼
►
think is the way to go might not be the
◼
►
way to go 1 2 3 years from now you know
◼
►
I'm now in that point with overcast
◼
►
where I'm making enough that it's you
◼
►
I'm not losing money on it but I would
◼
►
ideally like to be making more to really
◼
►
justify pouring even more time and
◼
►
resources into it and having a little
◼
►
bit more a little bit more Headroom on
◼
►
the budget and so I got to figure out
◼
►
something else like that's it like I'm
◼
►
not I'm not just gonna sit here and do
◼
►
nothing I got to figure something else
◼
►
now the paid upfront model I think works
◼
►
really well if your business model is I
◼
►
don't care about next year
◼
►
and there's lots of legitimate cases
◼
►
where that is where that is true like if
◼
►
you're making like a little special
◼
►
utility app that is gonna be probably
◼
►
not able to justify a whole bunch of
◼
►
your ongoing time and your ongoing
◼
►
maintenance ongoing updates and you're
◼
►
maybe gonna have a lot of those that
◼
►
probably makes more sense to be like all
◼
►
right paid upfront it's a simple thing
◼
►
people are gonna like buy it use it once
◼
►
or twice and then their need for it will
◼
►
go away or whatever else that's fine but
◼
►
if you if you're trying to make
◼
►
something that's gonna be like a
◼
►
Productivity app that people are going
◼
►
to ideally use every day for years
◼
►
you're going to need a different model
◼
►
because I think we've seen over and over
◼
►
again that paid upfront for that is
◼
►
really hard to make work yeah and I
◼
►
think it's also an interesting that
◼
►
there's there's some interesting
◼
►
realities I think about the app store
◼
►
too and I've noticed these in myself and
◼
►
this is like a tricky thing too
◼
►
in some ways I feel embarrassed about
◼
►
talking about it but I noticed my in my
◼
►
own when I'm in the App Store like now I
◼
►
go to you know on my iPhone I open up
◼
►
the App Store if I'm looking for an app
◼
►
and I see that it's paid I have
◼
►
tremendous reluctance to download it me
◼
►
I feel bad about saying that because I'm
◼
►
a software developer I'm an indie
◼
►
software developer like I make my living
◼
►
from people giving me money in the App
◼
►
Store but I don't want to give anyone
◼
►
else money and I think the reality about
◼
►
that that I'm like which is where it's
◼
►
like that's kind of in some ways a
◼
►
profound thing to observe about myself
◼
►
is if I don't want to do it why would
◼
►
anyone else want to do it and give me
◼
►
money like that's just the experience
◼
►
we've had in the App Store and then you
◼
►
could unpack like thousands of different
◼
►
reasons why that's the case why I don't
◼
►
want to pay money for apps in the App
◼
►
Store anymore you know maybe it had been
◼
►
burned in the past there's there's such
◼
►
incredible competition there's a lots of
◼
►
free alternatives you know it's like
◼
►
unless it is an app essentially unless
◼
►
the app was made by a friend of mine or
◼
►
I absolutely have to have it for some
◼
►
reason I would probably won't buy it I
◼
►
will find a free alternative and that's
◼
►
just like the reality and I could have
◼
►
some high-minded ideals that oh no it's
◼
►
you know a devalue software it makes our
◼
►
craft less special or valuable or
◼
►
whatever you could kind of imagine but
◼
►
like that's the reality that when I look
◼
►
at something I'm like mmm maybe not or
◼
►
maybe I don't need it that much and
◼
►
and having that honesty about myself I
◼
►
think helps me understand my customers
◼
►
better and understand the realities of
◼
►
the store that we're selling in and
◼
►
that's instructive I think that having
◼
►
that feeling of saying like you know if
◼
►
I'm not willing to provide for you know
◼
►
pay for software hmm maybe why should I
◼
►
expect that someone else would and that
◼
►
leads me to you know now increasingly
◼
►
like my focus is on you know free apps
◼
►
and finding ways to make money in those
◼
►
and I think overall that's better free
◼
►
is great because it makes it there were
◼
►
saying earlier where it gets
◼
►
incrementally harder to find that next
◼
►
customer in some ways a free app has the
◼
►
opposite been because it's as you go it
◼
►
starts you know you it has a much more
◼
►
frictionless spreading phenomenon where
◼
►
you know if someone if someone has your
◼
►
app they like it they can tell someone
◼
►
else and there's no cost for that
◼
►
exchange it's not this like well here's
◼
►
this app I really like it you know but
◼
►
it there's no but there's not like but
◼
►
it's a couple bucks like there's not the
◼
►
sort of this apology that you have to
◼
►
add to that if you're recommending it to
◼
►
somebody yeah this is a barrier that
◼
►
people have to have to decide whether
◼
►
they want to go over or not I mean
◼
►
ideally you don't want to put big
◼
►
barriers in front of people before they
◼
►
even have seen how good your app is
◼
►
exactly like I mean you you want and I
◼
►
think even there's this funny theater of
◼
►
I feel like I have to keep in mind that
◼
►
while I'm sitting in my office working
◼
►
in Xcode making something it's so easy
◼
►
to almost to like become precious about
◼
►
my software and to like it over
◼
►
emphasize what it is that something
◼
►
could feel like if you know I've poured
◼
►
my heart into this it's a you know it
◼
►
you can make you can give it these
◼
►
feelings that aren't really constructive
◼
►
where at the end of the day it's just
◼
►
it's an app that's going to be going
◼
►
into a store with 2 million other apps
◼
►
and is special and unique and as much of
◼
►
a special snowflake is you feel like it
◼
►
is it's probably not as specialists you
◼
►
think it actually is and so being
◼
►
realistic about that and understanding
◼
►
that you know people aren't going to
◼
►
want to just pay you money because they
◼
►
your app is special like they won't know
◼
►
it's special and even if they do know
◼
►
it's special they may not care
◼
►
I couldn't said it better myself I mean
◼
►
it this is a very competitive market
◼
►
it's so competitive there's so many
◼
►
other apps out there you have to
◼
►
convince people that they need yours and
◼
►
if there's any barriers in front of that
◼
►
they're going to cost you dearly and you
◼
►
have to make money somewhere and it used
◼
►
to be really easy to just put a paid up
◼
►
front price on it and that worked pretty
◼
►
well but that was back when the market
◼
►
was less competitive and people were
◼
►
more exploratory with how they spent
◼
►
their money on the app store people
◼
►
didn't people weren't already like kind
◼
►
of burnt out on spending money on apps
◼
►
to try them out that worked very well
◼
►
for maybe two years at the be in the App
◼
►
Store now it's different and how it's
◼
►
harder it's a mature market there's way
◼
►
more competition it's just harder and it
◼
►
can be done but it's also going to be
◼
►
very hard to do it in a way that can
◼
►
fund somebody's lifestyle to be a
◼
►
full-time job to work on a basic iOS app
◼
►
that charges a couple bucks like you had
◼
►
there has to be more to your strategy
◼
►
than that and it's not easy and it's
◼
►
getting a harder every year and there is
◼
►
still a market there but you have to be
◼
►
really savvy at trying to get it you
◼
►
have to try a lot of things you have to
◼
►
be willing to challenge lots of
◼
►
assumptions and you have to be willing
◼
►
to swallow your pride on a lot of the
◼
►
stuff and it's unfortunate but that's
◼
►
the reality of a very competitive low
◼
►
profit business yeah I think those are
◼
►
those two things that you just pointed
◼
►
out are the key to all of this it's have
◼
►
being creative and flexible about
◼
►
approaches and then being humble about
◼
►
your approach to things and not over
◼
►
emphasizing or over exaggerating what
◼
►
you're doing exactly I mean like I've
◼
►
thought about like putting ads and
◼
►
overcast like shed something I never
◼
►
would have thought of years ago but now
◼
►
I have a situation where I make no money
◼
►
from 97% of the user base so I could
◼
►
make some possibly even good money from
◼
►
them if I put ads in it it's something
◼
►
that I was all snobby about before but
◼
►
now I'm actively considering it because
◼
►
again like why should I leave that
◼
►
option on or off the table whatever they
◼
►
why should I not consider that option
◼
►
because you know I once found them kind
◼
►
of annoying like could is it possible to
◼
►
do it well I don't know but we could
◼
►
talk about that different episode when
◼
►
but that's you know you have to consider
◼
►
everything now because it's it's so
◼
►
competitive make no assumptions alright
◼
►
and with that we are out of time thanks
◼
►
a lot for listening everybody and we
◼
►
will talk to you next week bye