Under the Radar

◼   ► welcome to under the radar or show about

◼   ► independent iOS app development I'm

◼   ► Marco Arment and I'm David Smith under

◼   ► the radar is never longer than 30

◼   ► minutes so let's get started so today we

◼   ► wanted to talk a little bit about a

◼   ► couple of different topics but largely

◼   ► around that the the theme of shutting

◼   ► something down and specifically drawing

◼   ► on some of the experiences from this

◼   ► past week where the app vesper which was

◼   ► made by brent simmons dave wiskus and

◼   ► John Gruber announced that they are

◼   ► going to be closing down after you know

◼   ► several your run of being in the App

◼   ► Store and they handled that process both

◼   ► really well and I think that's something

◼   ► that I think we wanted to expand upon a

◼   ► little bit and talk about how to

◼   ► actually walk through closing something

◼   ► down when it's time you know the time

◼   ► has come for it to be shut down how to

◼   ► do it in a classy and you know good for

◼   ► your users kind of way and then also

◼   ► they've they've both written a lot of

◼   ► post mortems and kind of thoughts about

◼   ► the process and some of them are relates

◼   ► to the modern App Store and ways of

◼   ► pricing things and where things that may

◼   ► have worked out differently you know if

◼   ► they have it approached the app

◼   ► differently would it have been

◼   ► successful in a different way I think

◼   ► are all very relevant to you know to us

◼   ► in our discussion but I think first the

◼   ► best place to start is just to talk

◼   ► about the way they shut down vesper and

◼   ► so you know Brent posted and they didn't

◼   ► serve this last update I just think it's

◼   ► been quite a while since they had done a

◼   ► previous update and they didn't update

◼   ► and basically all it does is it adds the

◼   ► ability to export all of your data out

◼   ► of the app they made the app free so

◼   ► that you it just because like why not

◼   ► and they've turned off the ability to

◼   ► create new sync accounts which and then

◼   ► their sync service will be going away

◼   ► soon and overall I was when I saw that

◼   ► it was like that is just like the classy

◼   ► way to do it like they've put in the

◼   ► extra effort even though necessarily

◼   ► there's nothing not a specific return

◼   ► for this effort because the app has

◼   ► become now free they put in the effort

◼   ► to make it so that if you're an existing

◼   ► customer you're taken care of and

◼   ► whenever I see you I'm gonna see some

◼   ► like that I like I was not surprised

◼   ► given the people who are doing this but

◼   ► it was a good reminder that there will

◼   ► come a time with all of our products

◼   ► where we have to just you know probably

◼   ► gonna have to you know turn things off

◼   ► and it's something

◼   ► worth planning for and thinking through

◼   ► and then you know probably encourage

◼   ► also just the being thoughtful about

◼   ► what's best for your customers in that

◼   ► situation you know it's it's an

◼   ► unfortunate reality that in in this

◼   ► business basically nothing is permanent

◼   ► this is one of the reasons you know

◼   ► going back kind of to the to the big

◼   ► picture for a second like the the the

◼   ► possibility for the apps we we use and

◼   ► possibly depend on to ultimately shut

◼   ► down or be sold or whatever the case may

◼   ► be to change in a way that either shuts

◼   ► them down completely or that make it so

◼   ► that we can't or don't want to use them

◼   ► anymore really underscores the

◼   ► importance of keeping your data if

◼   ► possible in open formats or at least

◼   ► preserving the option like what vesper

◼   ► did to export into open formats and

◼   ► there's there some discussion too about

◼   ► like whether they are morally obligated

◼   ► to open-source it or not I I think in

◼   ► Brent's original post he made a pretty

◼   ► good case for why like they might

◼   ► open-source it but it's not necessarily

◼   ► a sure thing that they should or need to

◼   ► because like this is really old code

◼   ► because it was it was originally written

◼   ► for iOS 6 and a lot of it is not

◼   ► particularly useful in the modern era of

◼   ► like modern iOS capabilities that they

◼   ► like now here at the same thing today

◼   ► you'd use way less code and ultimately I

◼   ► don't believe that anybody is entitled

◼   ► to the source could have another

◼   ► application if they if they paid five

◼   ► bucks for it once two years ago like

◼   ► that's that to me is just not not a

◼   ► thing I think it's a it's a courtesy if

◼   ► you can open-source that it's kind of

◼   ► interesting a little bit but it's not

◼   ► you know the panacea that some people

◼   ► think they need and deserve and and if

◼   ► you if it's very important to you to

◼   ► have open source stuff if an app goes

◼   ► out of business I think the only way you

◼   ► can actually do that is to use an app

◼   ► that is open source from the beginning

◼   ► anyway so you know I've gone through a

◼   ► few product transitions myself the only

◼   ► thing that's actually shut down is the

◼   ► magazine but you know who knows what

◼   ► what the future will hold there it's

◼   ► tough but it's the reality I mean this

◼   ► was an you know vesper was an app that

◼   ► that all of its creators were very clear

◼   ► that they would have liked to have more

◼   ► time to spend working on it they would

◼   ► have liked for it to continue and to be

◼   ► worth working on but it didn't bring in

◼   ► enough

◼   ► money to be full timing comes to justify

◼   ► the work that it would have taken to

◼   ► make it really the next level and to

◼   ► make the mac app and to make everything

◼   ► else it needed that's just how it goes

◼   ► sometimes that you know that's just the

◼   ► reality of product development sometimes

◼   ► it doesn't work out and when you're when

◼   ► you're choosing to work on a side

◼   ► project like this was for all three of

◼   ► its developers it has to somehow justify

◼   ► the time you're putting into it and in

◼   ► this case also the the money that they

◼   ► were paying to host the sync service and

◼   ► to end a license the font and so you

◼   ► know they had ongoing costs they were

◼   ► faced with the problem of time

◼   ► investment that it needed and there

◼   ► simply wasn't enough revenue coming in

◼   ► to make it worth it and that's

◼   ► unfortunate on so many levels for so

◼   ► many reasons especially with with this

◼   ► group of people and with this app

◼   ► because it was a very good app and these

◼   ► were very high-profile developers who

◼   ► they got a lot of good publicity from

◼   ► themselves and others because of their

◼   ► position and because it was a good app

◼   ► and it still didn't work out so I think

◼   ► there's a lot we can unpack from this

◼   ► and a lot we can learn from this from

◼   ► the market today

◼   ► yeah and it's I think there's something

◼   ► to to be said that it's it's it is it's

◼   ► a very strange thing to say but in a

◼   ► small way I find it slightly encouraging

◼   ► that the vesper didn't work out and and

◼   ► I want to explain that but I mean is any

◼   ► project that any of us do even if it has

◼   ► everything going for it in terms of you

◼   ► you know there's not a lot of things

◼   ► that you could kind of imagine or draw

◼   ► up that would be like put the app put

◼   ► your app if you whatever you're working

◼   ► on and in a better place as a starting

◼   ► off point then I think what vesper had

◼   ► but it's a reminder of how even if you

◼   ► have everything going for you and you

◼   ► make something awesome that's not

◼   ► necessarily going to be enough that like

◼   ► and that's in some ways I find that

◼   ► encouraging because it's a reminder that

◼   ► you it's not but even having all those

◼   ► things you want you're not guarantee

◼   ► success so even if you don't have those

◼   ► things you're in suddenly in a weird way

◼   ► much the same in the same boat you know

◼   ► your there's going to be a certain a

◼   ► certain degree of look about whether

◼   ► it's you know whether it's going to hit

◼   ► the right group whether you approach

◼   ► things in the right way

◼   ► I mean in reading through their post

◼   ► mortems about the experience it's like

◼   ► there's things that they look back and

◼   ► they made choices that they would do

◼   ► differently now and there are people who

◼   ► really understand the AppStore who are

◼   ► very smart developers and designers and

◼   ► you know they made decisions that in

◼   ► some ways they wish they would have

◼   ► changed too and I don't have any weird

◼   ► way it's like it's nice to have that the

◼   ► humanity of that of like yeah it's

◼   ► difficult it's tough and it's a good

◼   ► reminder that if you know I when I

◼   ► launch things if they don't work out the

◼   ► way that I might want them to be it's

◼   ► like that's just that's just the table

◼   ► stakes that's just the reality of the

◼   ► game of making software and putting it

◼   ► into a market that sometimes it's not

◼   ► gonna work

◼   ► and it's also a good reminder to of you

◼   ► know it's so easy I think to discredit

◼   ► an initiative like that that's nice for

◼   ► kind of a problem where it's like when

◼   ► you see someone punch something and they

◼   ► have the big publicity it's like yeah

◼   ► that's nice I suppose but like that's

◼   ► not a guarantee of success either

◼   ► ultimately the work and effort that

◼   ► it'll take for something to be

◼   ► successful isn't just based on who you

◼   ► are that it there's more to it than that

◼   ► and that just seems like a good reminder

◼   ► that this is as sad as it is as a as an

◼   ► event that's exactly it I mean like you

◼   ► know I've said for years and nobody

◼   ► believes me because I have I'm the

◼   ► benefit I'm the beneficiary of publicity

◼   ► because I have an audience but I've said

◼   ► for years that you know having a built

◼   ► an audience or being like a quote famous

◼   ► developer or whatever else it does help

◼   ► you a lot at launch time it is something

◼   ► that can basically guarantee you a

◼   ► certain minimum level of success at

◼   ► launch but it is not a substitute for a

◼   ► good product market fit it is not going

◼   ► to save you from market realities and is

◼   ► not really going to help you that much

◼   ► in the law it'll help a little bit it's

◼   ► not gonna help you that much in the long

◼   ► term you know in this case Vesper was a

◼   ► note-taking app and it was it things a

◼   ► little bit differently than another

◼   ► note-taking app so it had like a couple

◼   ► of you of unique features and design

◼   ► choices and also of course it looked

◼   ► really nice but you know I was using

◼   ► designed more in the feature sense there

◼   ► and they did a whole bunch of custom UI

◼   ► text field jumbling basically like

◼   ► worked to work around UI tech field

◼   ► limitations to make it really

◼   ► to do what they wanted to right before

◼   ► all that stuff became a lot easier so

◼   ► they had they had like you know market

◼   ► timing problem number one of the hate

◼   ► they did a whole lot of work to to hack

◼   ► around UI text fields problems right

◼   ► before the api's made unnecessary they

◼   ► also did a huge amount of design and

◼   ► work making a clean simple design

◼   ► looking app running on iOS 6 and then

◼   ► iOS 7 came in and changed everything

◼   ► about design and made a whole bunch of

◼   ► that stuff easier later they had the

◼   ► issue of when they launched the the

◼   ► third-party notes category was a lot

◼   ► healthier than it is now because Apple

◼   ► Notes was terrible and then in the

◼   ► meantime Apple Notes got really good it

◼   ► got that big update was it iOS 8 I think

◼   ► so yeah with cloud kit I think so they

◼   ► came out and it was first using it and

◼   ► would dramatically improve the sink

◼   ► system and that you didn't have to use

◼   ► web dev and I think that was eight yeah

◼   ► eight or nine whenever it was you know

◼   ► Apple Notes got a ton better like

◼   ► massively so and to everyone's great

◼   ► surprise I think I mean I don't think

◼   ► anybody expected Apple to ever really

◼   ► care that much about their Notes app and

◼   ► to add the level of features that they

◼   ► did but anyway Apple Notes comes out is

◼   ► awesome and takes away much of vespers

◼   ► market gain or rather much of Esper's

◼   ► purpose in the market I think not all of

◼   ► it of course because you know there's a

◼   ► lot of things that vesper still did

◼   ► better for a lot of people but it

◼   ► certainly took a lot of the window that

◼   ► out of those sales so it was it was

◼   ► impacted a lot by the market in general

◼   ► but also I think in John Gruber's post

◼   ► earlier his big post-mortem about it I

◼   ► think he just pointed also that the

◼   ► pricing model was just also fairly

◼   ► outdated and that's something I think we

◼   ► have a lot to say about here so

◼   ► originally a five dollar upfront app no

◼   ► in-app purchase no recurring revenue

◼   ► stream just five dollars and once

◼   ► upfront same model I used back in the

◼   ► day for instapaper sort of what I used

◼   ► at the beginning of overcast but not

◼   ► really a very popular model lots of

◼   ► people use it especially in the early

◼   ► days and the advantages of that model

◼   ► are plenty I mean first of all it's very

◼   ► very simple

◼   ► as we discussed earlier in earlier

◼   ► episodes about pricing in planning paid

◼   ► upfront takes basically no work for the

◼   ► developer you don't do you don't do

◼   ► any in-app purchase code you don't do

◼   ► any receipt checking any restore

◼   ► purchases any anything really you just

◼   ► kind of set the price in iTunes Connect

◼   ► and that's it you're done so there's

◼   ► lots of advantage of the developer it

◼   ► also takes care of a lot of like

◼   ► ambiguities of whether somebody bought

◼   ► it at the right time or whatever you

◼   ► know it it's all a lot of problems there

◼   ► it also creates a few problems there is

◼   ► no clear way to upgrade pricing there

◼   ► you know it people have to pay before

◼   ► they can even see the app so you have a

◼   ► lot of unhappy people who buy the app

◼   ► you get their money and then they kind

◼   ► of don't like it so you it's kind of

◼   ► like kind of unfair it's not really good

◼   ► for customer satisfaction or your

◼   ► reputation if the app doesn't live up to

◼   ► it and people are unhappy with you and

◼   ► then of course the big problem is that

◼   ► these days it's really hard to get

◼   ► people to pay for apps upfront that

◼   ► that's a big one and I think we'll talk

◼   ► more about that but first we'll talk

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◼   ► supporting the show so one thing that I

◼   ► wanted to sort of talk a little bit

◼   ► through is related to this sort of this

◼   ► concept of you know charging five

◼   ► dollars upfront and the in my recent

◼   ► experience it's something that I've sort

◼   ► of started to wrap my my hands around is

◼   ► the concept that is whenever I'm

◼   ► building something it is so easy to

◼   ► focus on the say the first month that

◼   ► the app is going to be in market that

◼   ► I'm gonna build something I'm gonna put

◼   ► on the App Store and it's gonna go out

◼   ► and my focus and my thinking and you

◼   ► know both around the design the

◼   ► development and everything pricing

◼   ► marketing it's all about that first sort

◼   ► of wave and in many ways that makes

◼   ► sense that's logical like that's that is

◼   ► after you know see you spend months and

◼   ► months building something like that

◼   ► first month is really exciting and

◼   ► important to say at first day you know

◼   ► we're seeing yourself you know hopefully

◼   ► you know zoom up the add the charts in

◼   ► the app store like that's really cool

◼   ► but in the reality is that like

◼   ► sustainable long-term viable businesses

◼   ► are not made really at all in that first

◼   ► month that in my experience in order for

◼   ► you to have something that is viable

◼   ► long term you have to have a model that

◼   ► will work a year from now 18 months from

◼   ► now and have an ongoing component to it

◼   ► that works and does what you need it to

◼   ► do and that is I worry that I think

◼   ► we're as I've gone through this there's

◼   ► so many I feel like I've had the

◼   ► discussion in my mind and out loud

◼   ► dozens and dozens of times about oh

◼   ► what's the best model for pricing in the

◼   ► App Store but at the end of the day I

◼   ► think the simple like question that is

◼   ► probably helpful as we think through

◼   ► these types of things for our own

◼   ► applications is how will I make money a

◼   ► year from now doing what I'm doing and

◼   ► if you don't have a good answer

◼   ► then it's probably not a great you know

◼   ► set up and if you actually remember back

◼   ► one of the early episodes of

◼   ► under-the-radar

◼   ► we're talking about activity plus plus

◼   ► and you know we were going back and

◼   ► forth whether it should be free or paid

◼   ► and there's an activity trapper tracking

◼   ► app that I made and we ended up deciding

◼   ► to do the paid upfront model and there

◼   ► was a variety of reasons for that but

◼   ► nevertheless it was an interesting and

◼   ► recent data point for the same process

◼   ► and what happened is I think which I

◼   ► could have predicted would happen and I

◼   ► was fine with happening but you know the

◼   ► first couple weeks I didn't I was very

◼   ► happy with it and then it very quickly

◼   ► just fell down and is now continuing and

◼   ► in a stable level that that stable level

◼   ► is very close to zero it's not zero it's

◼   ► you know it's just sort of mumbling

◼   ► along on the bottom and if you look at

◼   ► the you know the actual curve of it it's

◼   ► very very minimal income at this point

◼   ► and that for that particular app was

◼   ► fine you know for what I was doing but

◼   ► there's an example of that problem of it

◼   ► if you can't have a good way of making

◼   ► money down the road then your business

◼   ► model is always gonna be stuck and I

◼   ► think that is I think the most

◼   ► fundamental problem with the paid

◼   ► upfront model that we have right now

◼   ► because every it's sort of like it's

◼   ► almost like the opposite of the the

◼   ► marginal cost advantage we know we're

◼   ► over time like once I've made a piece of

◼   ► software I can sell the next copy for

◼   ► free essentially I don't have to build

◼   ► it twice I made it once and I can keep

◼   ► selling it and so you know the marginal

◼   ► cost of that each subsequent purchase

◼   ► goes down for me but in a weird way

◼   ► acquiring your next customer after

◼   ► you've gotten the first one gets

◼   ► incrementally harder as you go and in

◼   ► some in some ways necessarily that you

◼   ► may have that initial burst of people

◼   ► who are interested in it who are you

◼   ► know sort of passionate about you're

◼   ► doing or love in this case they love

◼   ► notes apps or they take lots of notes

◼   ► like you're the easy low-hanging fruit

◼   ► type of customers that you may be able

◼   ► to acquire but then each day you go on

◼   ► from there if you want to be able to

◼   ► have a sustainable and reliable income

◼   ► stream

◼   ► you have to have a way of getting more

◼   ► and more people and you're starting to

◼   ► get farther and farther from your own

◼   ► you know through your own circles in

◼   ► terms of if you're you know D what we

◼   ► were just saying earlier about well it's

◼   ► easy if you have a built-in audience

◼   ► it's like well that's great

◼   ► that first week but that doesn't help

◼   ► you a month later or a year later when

◼   ► everybody in your circle is aware of it

◼   ► they know about it they've bought it or

◼   ► have not bought it or you know and

◼   ► that's where you find yourself and so

◼   ► that's the thing that the interesting

◼   ► thing that I've started to try and

◼   ► filter my thinking through around

◼   ► pricing and around business models is

◼   ► it's not really caring too much about

◼   ► that first you know that that first

◼   ► period and thinking almost exclusively

◼   ► about a year from now and if you don't

◼   ► if you having a good plan for what that

◼   ► looks like and if you do if you can

◼   ► focus on that I feel like you're in a

◼   ► much better place and maybe you're gonna

◼   ► discount and lose a bit of potential

◼   ► revenue that first week or so but

◼   ► overall you know you'll make them you'll

◼   ► make it back dramatically if you have a

◼   ► much better position years down the road

◼   ► especially if this is something that you

◼   ► want to do long-term exactly I mean you

◼   ► know you have to think about like your

◼   ► from now because like we've like anybody

◼   ► who has ever had a paid app in the store

◼   ► has seen the exact same curve that you

◼   ► that you've seen on activity plus plus

◼   ► and probably many of your other apps

◼   ► which is like that big long spike that

◼   ► first like couple days or week where

◼   ► it's great and then just a pretty quick

◼   ► drop and then kind of a plateau kind of

◼   ► like an asymptotic curve look into zero

◼   ► basically that work kind of stays

◼   ► indefinitely low or gets gradually lower

◼   ► if it isn't at zero yet and you know

◼   ► I've seen that I saw that with many of

◼   ► my apps I saw that with instapaper every

◼   ► every major version I saw it with bug

◼   ► shot the whole thing I I saw it with

◼   ► overcast when when like I longed even

◼   ► though it was free it still had that one

◼   ► time paid purchase so it was it kind of

◼   ► had the same shape it was just a little

◼   ► bit different dynamic but same shape of

◼   ► great first couple of months and then

◼   ► gradual decline you know and and just

◼   ► slowly declining over time and that's

◼   ► one of the reasons I switched to

◼   ► recurring subscription payments for it

◼   ► is because scription payments it's not

◼   ► easy it's it's actually harder to get

◼   ► people to pay that way but at least the

◼   ► curve is going in the other direction

◼   ► and it's not even going that far in the

◼   ► direction and I'm going to have to add

◼   ► more things behind that pay wall to make

◼   ► it more healthy than it is now because

◼   ► right now basically what happened with

◼   ► overcast as a quick aside here the

◼   ► patronage model I was trying to get five

◼   ► percent of users to pay before there

◼   ► were any features when it was just

◼   ► goodwill based I achieved about one and

◼   ► a half percent and it kind of plateaued

◼   ► of that and so when I added dark mode

◼   ► and file upload but is I think it's

◼   ► mostly about dark mode just having those

◼   ► two desirable features behind the

◼   ► paywall rather than nothing made it go

◼   ► from about 1.8 1.9 percent to about 3

◼   ► percent but it is now plateauing at

◼   ► about 3 percent that that that rate has

◼   ► stopped growing and really I needed to

◼   ► be more like 5 percent to really sustain

◼   ► this healthily and so I'm going to have

◼   ► to put more new features behind that and

◼   ► so just so everyone knows like nothing

◼   ► works perfectly like you know I no

◼   ► matter what we say like you know when we

◼   ► long something is here's how we think

◼   ► it's going to go it doesn't always go

◼   ► that way and you know when Vesper

◼   ► launched at 5 bucks up front they

◼   ► thought that was gonna work great

◼   ► because for many people and for a while

◼   ► it worked ok but then the market moved

◼   ► over time they they found that you know

◼   ► they ran into competition and other

◼   ► another issues and it didn't work out so

◼   ► well in the end so one thing that I

◼   ► would definitely say is to basically

◼   ► keep your mind and options open on

◼   ► pricing and and how you make money

◼   ► because even if you pick a certain model

◼   ► at the beginning you will probably have

◼   ► to change that and what and what you

◼   ► think is the way to go might not be the

◼   ► way to go 1 2 3 years from now you know

◼   ► I'm now in that point with overcast

◼   ► where I'm making enough that it's you

◼   ► know it's it's okay

◼   ► I'm not losing money on it but I would

◼   ► ideally like to be making more to really

◼   ► justify pouring even more time and

◼   ► resources into it and having a little

◼   ► bit more a little bit more Headroom on

◼   ► the budget and so I got to figure out

◼   ► something else like that's it like I'm

◼   ► not I'm not just gonna sit here and do

◼   ► nothing I got to figure something else

◼   ► now the paid upfront model I think works

◼   ► really well if your business model is I

◼   ► don't care about next year

◼   ► and there's lots of legitimate cases

◼   ► where that is where that is true like if

◼   ► you're making like a little special

◼   ► utility app that is gonna be probably

◼   ► not able to justify a whole bunch of

◼   ► your ongoing time and your ongoing

◼   ► maintenance ongoing updates and you're

◼   ► maybe gonna have a lot of those that

◼   ► probably makes more sense to be like all

◼   ► right paid upfront it's a simple thing

◼   ► people are gonna like buy it use it once

◼   ► or twice and then their need for it will

◼   ► go away or whatever else that's fine but

◼   ► if you if you're trying to make

◼   ► something that's gonna be like a

◼   ► Productivity app that people are going

◼   ► to ideally use every day for years

◼   ► you're going to need a different model

◼   ► because I think we've seen over and over

◼   ► again that paid upfront for that is

◼   ► really hard to make work yeah and I

◼   ► think it's also an interesting that

◼   ► there's there's some interesting

◼   ► realities I think about the app store

◼   ► too and I've noticed these in myself and

◼   ► this is like a tricky thing too

◼   ► in some ways I feel embarrassed about

◼   ► talking about it but I noticed my in my

◼   ► own when I'm in the App Store like now I

◼   ► go to you know on my iPhone I open up

◼   ► the App Store if I'm looking for an app

◼   ► and I see that it's paid I have

◼   ► tremendous reluctance to download it me

◼   ► too

◼   ► I feel bad about saying that because I'm

◼   ► a software developer I'm an indie

◼   ► software developer like I make my living

◼   ► from people giving me money in the App

◼   ► Store but I don't want to give anyone

◼   ► else money and I think the reality about

◼   ► that that I'm like which is where it's

◼   ► like that's kind of in some ways a

◼   ► profound thing to observe about myself

◼   ► is if I don't want to do it why would

◼   ► anyone else want to do it and give me

◼   ► money like that's just the experience

◼   ► we've had in the App Store and then you

◼   ► could unpack like thousands of different

◼   ► reasons why that's the case why I don't

◼   ► want to pay money for apps in the App

◼   ► Store anymore you know maybe it had been

◼   ► burned in the past there's there's such

◼   ► incredible competition there's a lots of

◼   ► free alternatives you know it's like

◼   ► unless it is an app essentially unless

◼   ► the app was made by a friend of mine or

◼   ► I absolutely have to have it for some

◼   ► reason I would probably won't buy it I

◼   ► will find a free alternative and that's

◼   ► just like the reality and I could have

◼   ► some high-minded ideals that oh no it's

◼   ► you know a devalue software it makes our

◼   ► craft less special or valuable or

◼   ► whatever you could kind of imagine but

◼   ► like that's the reality that when I look

◼   ► at something I'm like mmm maybe not or

◼   ► maybe I don't need it that much and

◼   ► and having that honesty about myself I

◼   ► think helps me understand my customers

◼   ► better and understand the realities of

◼   ► the store that we're selling in and

◼   ► that's instructive I think that having

◼   ► that feeling of saying like you know if

◼   ► I'm not willing to provide for you know

◼   ► pay for software hmm maybe why should I

◼   ► expect that someone else would and that

◼   ► leads me to you know now increasingly

◼   ► like my focus is on you know free apps

◼   ► and finding ways to make money in those

◼   ► and I think overall that's better free

◼   ► is great because it makes it there were

◼   ► saying earlier where it gets

◼   ► incrementally harder to find that next

◼   ► customer in some ways a free app has the

◼   ► opposite been because it's as you go it

◼   ► starts you know you it has a much more

◼   ► frictionless spreading phenomenon where

◼   ► you know if someone if someone has your

◼   ► app they like it they can tell someone

◼   ► else and there's no cost for that

◼   ► exchange it's not this like well here's

◼   ► this app I really like it you know but

◼   ► it there's no but there's not like but

◼   ► it's a couple bucks like there's not the

◼   ► sort of this apology that you have to

◼   ► add to that if you're recommending it to

◼   ► somebody yeah this is a barrier that

◼   ► people have to have to decide whether

◼   ► they want to go over or not I mean

◼   ► ideally you don't want to put big

◼   ► barriers in front of people before they

◼   ► even have seen how good your app is

◼   ► exactly like I mean you you want and I

◼   ► think even there's this funny theater of

◼   ► I feel like I have to keep in mind that

◼   ► while I'm sitting in my office working

◼   ► in Xcode making something it's so easy

◼   ► to almost to like become precious about

◼   ► my software and to like it over

◼   ► emphasize what it is that something

◼   ► could feel like if you know I've poured

◼   ► my heart into this it's a you know it

◼   ► you can make you can give it these

◼   ► feelings that aren't really constructive

◼   ► where at the end of the day it's just

◼   ► it's an app that's going to be going

◼   ► into a store with 2 million other apps

◼   ► and is special and unique and as much of

◼   ► a special snowflake is you feel like it

◼   ► is it's probably not as specialists you

◼   ► think it actually is and so being

◼   ► realistic about that and understanding

◼   ► that you know people aren't going to

◼   ► want to just pay you money because they

◼   ► your app is special like they won't know

◼   ► it's special and even if they do know

◼   ► it's special they may not care

◼   ► I couldn't said it better myself I mean

◼   ► it this is a very competitive market

◼   ► it's so competitive there's so many

◼   ► other apps out there you have to

◼   ► convince people that they need yours and

◼   ► if there's any barriers in front of that

◼   ► they're going to cost you dearly and you

◼   ► have to make money somewhere and it used

◼   ► to be really easy to just put a paid up

◼   ► front price on it and that worked pretty

◼   ► well but that was back when the market

◼   ► was less competitive and people were

◼   ► more exploratory with how they spent

◼   ► their money on the app store people

◼   ► didn't people weren't already like kind

◼   ► of burnt out on spending money on apps

◼   ► to try them out that worked very well

◼   ► for maybe two years at the be in the App

◼   ► Store now it's different and how it's

◼   ► harder it's a mature market there's way

◼   ► more competition it's just harder and it

◼   ► can be done but it's also going to be

◼   ► very hard to do it in a way that can

◼   ► fund somebody's lifestyle to be a

◼   ► full-time job to work on a basic iOS app

◼   ► that charges a couple bucks like you had

◼   ► there has to be more to your strategy

◼   ► than that and it's not easy and it's

◼   ► getting a harder every year and there is

◼   ► still a market there but you have to be

◼   ► really savvy at trying to get it you

◼   ► have to try a lot of things you have to

◼   ► be willing to challenge lots of

◼   ► assumptions and you have to be willing

◼   ► to swallow your pride on a lot of the

◼   ► stuff and it's unfortunate but that's

◼   ► the reality of a very competitive low

◼   ► profit business yeah I think those are

◼   ► those two things that you just pointed

◼   ► out are the key to all of this it's have

◼   ► being creative and flexible about

◼   ► approaches and then being humble about

◼   ► your approach to things and not over

◼   ► emphasizing or over exaggerating what

◼   ► you're doing exactly I mean like I've

◼   ► thought about like putting ads and

◼   ► overcast like shed something I never

◼   ► would have thought of years ago but now

◼   ► I have a situation where I make no money

◼   ► from 97% of the user base so I could

◼   ► make some possibly even good money from

◼   ► them if I put ads in it it's something

◼   ► that I was all snobby about before but

◼   ► now I'm actively considering it because

◼   ► again like why should I leave that

◼   ► option on or off the table whatever they

◼   ► why should I not consider that option

◼   ► because you know I once found them kind

◼   ► of annoying like could is it possible to

◼   ► do it well I don't know but we could

◼   ► talk about that different episode when

◼   ► we have more time

◼   ► but that's you know you have to consider

◼   ► everything now because it's it's so

◼   ► competitive make no assumptions alright

◼   ► and with that we are out of time thanks

◼   ► a lot for listening everybody and we

◼   ► will talk to you next week bye