Under the Radar

00:00:00 ◼   ► welcome to under the radar a show about

00:00:02 ◼   ► independent iOS app development I'm

00:00:04 ◼   ► Marco Arment and I'm David Smith under

00:00:06 ◼   ► the radar is never longer than 30

00:00:07 ◼   ► minutes so let's get started so today we

00:00:09 ◼   ► wanted to talk about speaking at

00:00:11 ◼   ► conferences David and I have both done a

00:00:14 ◼   ► lot of it David you're right in the

00:00:16 ◼   ► middle of two conferences now and we a

00:00:20 ◼   ► lot of developers you know both attend

00:00:22 ◼   ► conferences and also many developers are

00:00:24 ◼   ► asked to speak at developer conferences

00:00:26 ◼   ► and so there's there's certainly a lot

00:00:29 ◼   ► of I don't know if interest around this

00:00:32 ◼   ► topic I'd say and we figured we go over

00:00:35 ◼   ► like kind of what it's like to speak at

00:00:38 ◼   ► a conference why you might want to why

00:00:40 ◼   ► you might not want to the process

00:00:43 ◼   ► involved and kind of had to manage it

00:00:44 ◼   ► that seemed reasonable

00:00:45 ◼   ► yeah and I think it's a kind of thing

00:00:47 ◼   ► that I remember being very intimidated

00:00:51 ◼   ► by when I was early in my career I

00:00:54 ◼   ► didn't when I was in the phase where I

00:00:56 ◼   ► would really only ever attend

00:00:57 ◼   ► conferences and I'd kind of go and that

00:00:59 ◼   ► see these people do this they this thing

00:01:01 ◼   ► up on a stage and it would feel very

00:01:02 ◼   ► scary and my hope is that we can kind of

00:01:05 ◼   ► make that a little less scary or at

00:01:08 ◼   ► least put some handles on it for if

00:01:09 ◼   ► you're someone who is trying to think

00:01:12 ◼   ► about getting into this or wanting to

00:01:14 ◼   ► start doing conference speaking to make

00:01:17 ◼   ► it a little bit less scary because it's

00:01:18 ◼   ► but not really as scary as it may

00:01:20 ◼   ► sometimes feel yeah and so you know

00:01:23 ◼   ► first you know it's let's assume that

00:01:25 ◼   ► there's a conference that you either

00:01:27 ◼   ► want to submit a proposal to or that has

00:01:29 ◼   ► asked you to speak so so assume

00:01:30 ◼   ► basically that you're in the planning

00:01:31 ◼   ► process or the deciding process one

00:01:34 ◼   ► thing to think about is like is this the

00:01:37 ◼   ► kind of thing you want to do and and

00:01:39 ◼   ► what are you looking to get out of it it

00:01:41 ◼   ► is not a quick or easy process it is it

00:01:44 ◼   ► is not something you can just kind of

00:01:45 ◼   ► blow off and and get on with your life

00:01:47 ◼   ► it takes a lot of time to prepare for a

00:01:49 ◼   ► conference speaking and you know like I

00:01:52 ◼   ► mean I would say most of my talks I'm

00:01:54 ◼   ► probably preparing for maybe a week

00:01:57 ◼   ► ahead of time like salt a solid weekend

00:01:59 ◼   ► I might not that might be spread out

00:02:00 ◼   ► across you know more time spans but it's

00:02:04 ◼   ► about of about a week of work I would

00:02:05 ◼   ► say for a good talk is that is that

00:02:07 ◼   ► about it right for you I'd say so I mean

00:02:09 ◼   ► I think I probably spend typically two

00:02:12 ◼   ► to three days

00:02:13 ◼   ► is just getting the talk like I want it

00:02:17 ◼   ► in terms of the structure and the slides

00:02:19 ◼   ► and the overall kind of flow of it and

00:02:23 ◼   ► then it's probably another couple of

00:02:25 ◼   ► days this is where it starts to become

00:02:26 ◼   ► more spread out but if just practicing

00:02:29 ◼   ► of going through and doing it over and

00:02:31 ◼   ► over again and especially depending on

00:02:33 ◼   ► how long your conference slot is you

00:02:35 ◼   ► know so sometimes I've done the

00:02:37 ◼   ► conference speaking where I'm only doing

00:02:39 ◼   ► you know 15 20 minute talks where

00:02:41 ◼   ► rehearsal is a bit easier because you

00:02:43 ◼   ► know doing a full run-through you can do

00:02:45 ◼   ► pretty quickly but I've also done in

00:02:46 ◼   ► talks where it's 45 minutes to an hour

00:02:48 ◼   ► where then the rehearsal schedule gets a

00:02:51 ◼   ► little bit longer and more drawn-out

00:02:52 ◼   ► because if you want to do a single

00:02:54 ◼   ► run-through takes you know it takes a

00:02:55 ◼   ► full hour to do that run through but

00:02:58 ◼   ► overall yeah I'd say it's about about a

00:03:00 ◼   ► week if you want to do it well and I

00:03:03 ◼   ► think that is something that I when I

00:03:06 ◼   ► was first sort of mouth my the first

00:03:08 ◼   ► time I ever said yes to doing a

00:03:09 ◼   ► conference speak speech I remember

00:03:12 ◼   ► having no real concept of how long it

00:03:14 ◼   ► was going to take I was like oh you know

00:03:15 ◼   ► it's the kind of thing maybe it's like

00:03:16 ◼   ► I'll spend an afternoon kind of putting

00:03:19 ◼   ► it together and you know how wrong I was

00:03:22 ◼   ► about that I think is a good thing to

00:03:24 ◼   ► say just because if you don't plan for

00:03:27 ◼   ► it in that way and Vout and factor that

00:03:28 ◼   ► in whether you can both they have afford

00:03:31 ◼   ► the time for it and then if you actually

00:03:33 ◼   ► just have the ability to do it is

00:03:36 ◼   ► definitely something that if you're not

00:03:37 ◼   ► expecting it like it's it's easy to

00:03:39 ◼   ► imagine that you know the output only

00:03:43 ◼   ► Tiffani were just trying to put together

00:03:45 ◼   ► a 15-minute song

00:03:47 ◼   ► it seems like that should be really easy

00:03:48 ◼   ► but trying to have something that's

00:03:50 ◼   ► concise and to the point in that period

00:03:52 ◼   ► of time takes way more effort then you'd

00:03:55 ◼   ► probably even imagine yeah I mean like

00:03:57 ◼   ► like one of the places I usually start

00:03:59 ◼   ► is by writing out the the bulk of what

00:04:02 ◼   ► I'm going to say kind of like in like an

00:04:05 ◼   ► outline format that's kind of like an

00:04:06 ◼   ► informal outline so it's kind of like

00:04:08 ◼   ► halfway between an outline and a

00:04:10 ◼   ► blogpost because what the basis of any

00:04:13 ◼   ► good talk is some kind of coherent story

00:04:16 ◼   ► that runs through it so you know a good

00:04:18 ◼   ► talk should basically read like like if

00:04:21 ◼   ► you if you read transcription of it it

00:04:23 ◼   ► should basically read like a good blog

00:04:25 ◼   ► post you know like a persuasive essay or

00:04:27 ◼   ► good story or something like that and so

00:04:30 ◼   ► it really helps a lot to write it out

00:04:32 ◼   ► you know even if you're not writing out

00:04:34 ◼   ► exactly every word you want to say just

00:04:36 ◼   ► to at least write out like a general

00:04:39 ◼   ► overview that is readable so that you

00:04:41 ◼   ► can then treat it a little bit like a

00:04:43 ◼   ► blog post as you're writing it and be

00:04:45 ◼   ► able to edit things move things around

00:04:47 ◼   ► reframe things in ways that make more

00:04:49 ◼   ► sense as a coherent story because if you

00:04:52 ◼   ► don't do that and so and I've had talks

00:04:54 ◼   ► where I've done that I've had talked to

00:04:55 ◼   ► where I haven't done that the ones were

00:04:57 ◼   ► the ones where I just opened up keynote

00:04:59 ◼   ► and just started making slides have

00:05:01 ◼   ► always been substantially worse the ones

00:05:05 ◼   ► that I start out like just as if as a

00:05:07 ◼   ► presentation that way I just always

00:05:09 ◼   ► worse it my best talks I haven't done

00:05:12 ◼   ► that many but ultimately like my good

00:05:14 ◼   ► talks are the ones where I have written

00:05:16 ◼   ► it out basically as as a blog post style

00:05:19 ◼   ► of speaking and structurally first and

00:05:22 ◼   ► then gone and made the slides from that

00:05:24 ◼   ► point and this is all to say also that

00:05:26 ◼   ► you know that that you should treat it

00:05:29 ◼   ► not as this kind of full waterfall

00:05:32 ◼   ► process of like you write it all out

00:05:33 ◼   ► then you make the slides then you go

00:05:35 ◼   ► give them all of my talks I have edited

00:05:38 ◼   ► up until like the night before I've

00:05:41 ◼   ► given them some times the same day I've

00:05:42 ◼   ► given them I'm still editing them

00:05:43 ◼   ► because what you realize during

00:05:47 ◼   ► rehearsal which you should you should

00:05:49 ◼   ► always rehearse your talks hopefully

00:05:52 ◼   ► even more than once if you have the time

00:05:54 ◼   ► before you give them because rehearsing

00:05:57 ◼   ► it like by yourself running through it

00:05:58 ◼   ► like actually like standing up with a

00:06:01 ◼   ► clicker and having your lap up in

00:06:03 ◼   ► presentation mode like actually like

00:06:05 ◼   ► running through it as you would give it

00:06:06 ◼   ► giving it to a room of nobody is

00:06:09 ◼   ► incredibly valuable to get a sense for

00:06:12 ◼   ► kind of what works what doesn't you know

00:06:13 ◼   ► how it flows how it doesn't flow like

00:06:16 ◼   ► what parts you stumble over what parts

00:06:18 ◼   ► need to be rethought or don't belong or

00:06:20 ◼   ► kind of break the rhythm or whatever

00:06:22 ◼   ► else the the rehearsal part of it is

00:06:25 ◼   ► invaluable and I highly highly recommend

00:06:28 ◼   ► that you never give a talk that you have

00:06:30 ◼   ► not rehearsed if it's this kind of

00:06:32 ◼   ► format and we'll get to well I have some

00:06:34 ◼   ► pics about this format that I get to

00:06:35 ◼   ► later but in the kind of traditional

00:06:37 ◼   ► format of you have a person standing in

00:06:39 ◼   ► front of a crowd with a microphone and

00:06:41 ◼   ► station clicker going through a slide

00:06:43 ◼   ► deck and talking you need to have

00:06:44 ◼   ► rehearsed that because otherwise it

00:06:47 ◼   ► basically it shows if you haven't

00:06:49 ◼   ► rehearsed it and it really helps to get

00:06:51 ◼   ► a lot of the a lot of the the problems

00:06:53 ◼   ► that you kind of stand them away if you

00:06:55 ◼   ► go through some rehearsals and realize

00:06:57 ◼   ► what doesn't work and edit what needs

00:06:58 ◼   ► what needs to be edited yeah and I think

00:07:00 ◼   ► - it's what I find is most helpful when

00:07:03 ◼   ► I'm preparing some of the talk and I

00:07:05 ◼   ► don't quite do that through the road

00:07:06 ◼   ► that you do where you kind of outlined

00:07:07 ◼   ► it like I tend to think it through in my

00:07:10 ◼   ► head and it's the kind of thing that

00:07:13 ◼   ► once I sign up for a talk I'll take in

00:07:15 ◼   ► the back of my mind for like a month I'm

00:07:17 ◼   ► kind of running through this vague sense

00:07:19 ◼   ► of what I want to accomplish and I think

00:07:21 ◼   ► one of the key things that I found is

00:07:22 ◼   ► that if I can condense what I'm trying

00:07:26 ◼   ► to say to you know a few sentences or a

00:07:31 ◼   ► 1 minute kind of overview like I can

00:07:33 ◼   ► kind of get this kernel of like this is

00:07:35 ◼   ► the thing that I want the audience to

00:07:37 ◼   ► come away with and I can be very concise

00:07:40 ◼   ► and specific about that I always find

00:07:42 ◼   ► that's very helpful for me to prepare a

00:07:44 ◼   ► compelling talk and as I go through my

00:07:47 ◼   ► rehearsals I can kind of judge if I'm

00:07:50 ◼   ► going down any dead ends or things that

00:07:52 ◼   ► aren't connecting back to that main

00:07:55 ◼   ► point because the reality I think - is

00:07:57 ◼   ► as like I used to be really scared of

00:08:01 ◼   ► public speaking in and a lot of that was

00:08:04 ◼   ► coming from overemphasizing I think the

00:08:06 ◼   ► the reaction that your audience is going

00:08:08 ◼   ► to have to your talk that you put all

00:08:11 ◼   ► this time and effort into it and the

00:08:12 ◼   ► reality and you kind of you in initially

00:08:14 ◼   ► I used to think that everyone is going

00:08:16 ◼   ► to be like hanging on every word and

00:08:18 ◼   ► really thinking about it and and I can

00:08:20 ◼   ► turn Eliza knit but then I started to go

00:08:22 ◼   ► to conferences and I realized that I

00:08:24 ◼   ► would I leave with a talk is a general

00:08:27 ◼   ► impression far more often than I do like

00:08:29 ◼   ► a specific like a detailed understanding

00:08:31 ◼   ► or analysis of what someone just said

00:08:34 ◼   ► like you kind of get this high level

00:08:36 ◼   ► well that's kind of what they were

00:08:38 ◼   ► saying and if what you want to do as

00:08:40 ◼   ► you're preparing it I feel like is to

00:08:42 ◼   ► make sure that that impression that

00:08:44 ◼   ► you're going to be leaving someone with

00:08:45 ◼   ► is the actual impression that you're

00:08:47 ◼   ► trying to leave them with and so as you

00:08:49 ◼   ► do it if you have this the core thesis

00:08:51 ◼   ► that you can kind of compare all of your

00:08:53 ◼   ► notes slides with compare all the

00:08:54 ◼   ► like anecdotes or the lines of thinking

00:08:56 ◼   ► you're doing towards I feel like that

00:08:58 ◼   ► makes it a much more compelling thing

00:09:00 ◼   ► because everything is just pointing back

00:09:01 ◼   ► to the same point over and over and over

00:09:03 ◼   ► again you know when when you're writing

00:09:06 ◼   ► it or when you're thinking about what

00:09:07 ◼   ► what it will be like to be to give a

00:09:09 ◼   ► conference talk and maybe you're

00:09:10 ◼   ► stressing out about it like one of the

00:09:12 ◼   ► things that that I that I read I think

00:09:14 ◼   ► it was like the there's that one book

00:09:16 ◼   ► like a bad that everybody reads I giving

00:09:18 ◼   ► presentations I've totally forgotten

00:09:19 ◼   ► what it is this is well and I read like

00:09:23 ◼   ► the first I'd rather the intro basically

00:09:25 ◼   ► that's it because I don't read very very

00:09:27 ◼   ► well but one of the things I learn from

00:09:29 ◼   ► that which which is a very valuable

00:09:31 ◼   ► lesson is that you know if you think

00:09:34 ◼   ► about what people stressed out about

00:09:36 ◼   ► most of the time people are stressed out

00:09:37 ◼   ► with the project of giving the talk

00:09:39 ◼   ► about what if I say too much or I

00:09:43 ◼   ► stumble over a sentence or or I I fumble

00:09:46 ◼   ► something or I don't say something right

00:09:47 ◼   ► and the reality is that if you actually

00:09:50 ◼   ► if you've been to conferences if you

00:09:53 ◼   ► actually think about it and actually pay

00:09:54 ◼   ► attention to what people are saying word

00:09:56 ◼   ► for word detailing a little

00:09:58 ◼   ► transcription for a minute in your mind

00:10:00 ◼   ► and you'll see that people on stage are

00:10:02 ◼   ► constantly fumbling look you know

00:10:04 ◼   ► fumbling over their words are constantly

00:10:05 ◼   ► saying or more alike and you are

00:10:09 ◼   ► actually Auto correcting that in your

00:10:11 ◼   ► head as you're listening so it doesn't

00:10:13 ◼   ► really matter at all that is not that is

00:10:15 ◼   ► not a kind of thing you need to worry

00:10:17 ◼   ► about when you're doing that kind of

00:10:19 ◼   ► public speaking it basically the room

00:10:20 ◼   ► does not care if you say uh they just

00:10:23 ◼   ► don't care so that's not that isn't we

00:10:25 ◼   ► have to worry about and you're right

00:10:26 ◼   ► that you also have to worry less about

00:10:28 ◼   ► like the every single thing you're

00:10:29 ◼   ► saying being greater accurate or tied

00:10:32 ◼   ► together because the room is going to

00:10:34 ◼   ► have very different levels of people

00:10:36 ◼   ► paying attention especially you know

00:10:37 ◼   ► look around a tech conference anybody

00:10:39 ◼   ► you see with a laptop they're not paying

00:10:41 ◼   ► attention to anyone with the phone in

00:10:42 ◼   ► their hand they're not paying attention

00:10:43 ◼   ► anyone who's going to get a coffee or

00:10:45 ◼   ► drink they're not paying attention so

00:10:46 ◼   ► you know you're talking to maybe a third

00:10:48 ◼   ► of the room who's actually listening and

00:10:50 ◼   ► but where it can help to have a coherent

00:10:53 ◼   ► story is to keep people's attention like

00:10:57 ◼   ► if you're kind of all over the place

00:10:58 ◼   ► where there's some rough spots in the

00:11:00 ◼   ► presentation where like you're throwing

00:11:01 ◼   ► in stuff that didn't really need to be

00:11:02 ◼   ► there or you're not really saying or

00:11:04 ◼   ► telling some kind of long convoluted

00:11:06 ◼   ► story doesn't really make sense or

00:11:07 ◼   ► whatever else

00:11:08 ◼   ► you're giving people opportunities to

00:11:10 ◼   ► tune out and so if you can keep them

00:11:13 ◼   ► engaged with something that's a little

00:11:14 ◼   ► bit better rehearsed and edited more

00:11:16 ◼   ► people will hear what you're trying to

00:11:18 ◼   ► say and and people who want to pay

00:11:20 ◼   ► attention will have an easier time

00:11:21 ◼   ► paying attention and I think it's also

00:11:23 ◼   ► bright fair to say it's always better to

00:11:24 ◼   ► run short than run long yes

00:11:27 ◼   ► you know you mean obviously conference

00:11:29 ◼   ► organisers if you if you're somebody

00:11:30 ◼   ► give you a slot you want to be

00:11:32 ◼   ► respectful of you know if they say it's

00:11:33 ◼   ► a half hour slot don't show up and do a

00:11:35 ◼   ► ten minute talk like that probably

00:11:37 ◼   ► wouldn't go well but on the flip side if

00:11:39 ◼   ► you have to go one way or the other I

00:11:41 ◼   ► always run short no one's ever gonna be

00:11:43 ◼   ► like oh you know it's like if you leave

00:11:45 ◼   ► the audience being like oh I wish you

00:11:47 ◼   ► would just talk had talked for hours and

00:11:48 ◼   ► hours it's like you're doing great don't

00:11:50 ◼   ► worry about it but on the flip side if

00:11:52 ◼   ► someone's like oh why won't he is like

00:11:54 ◼   ► is he ever going to finish is this like

00:11:56 ◼   ► where is this going that is far more

00:11:58 ◼   ► problematic than things like being too

00:12:00 ◼   ► short exactly and then I guess the nice

00:12:04 ◼   ► thing to talk about is kind of like if

00:12:05 ◼   ► you're going to do one of these talks

00:12:07 ◼   ► kind of the mechanics of like what what

00:12:10 ◼   ► should your presentation include what

00:12:12 ◼   ► should it not include how to do certain

00:12:14 ◼   ► things I mean number one that these

00:12:16 ◼   ► presentations almost always include is

00:12:18 ◼   ► slides you have some kind of slide deck

00:12:20 ◼   ► usually from keynote or if if you are in

00:12:23 ◼   ► the Microsoft world from PowerPoint and

00:12:24 ◼   ► you go through the slide deck and and it

00:12:27 ◼   ► can be like you know meaningfully

00:12:29 ◼   ► structured or whatever else it could be

00:12:31 ◼   ► heavily designed it could be very

00:12:34 ◼   ► bare-bones it could be all pictures or

00:12:36 ◼   ► all text or whatever else I would say

00:12:38 ◼   ► from my experience making slides there's

00:12:41 ◼   ► always going to be other people at the

00:12:43 ◼   ► conference whose slides look way better

00:12:45 ◼   ► than mine and that will make me feel bad

00:12:47 ◼   ► but the reality is that spending a lot

00:12:50 ◼   ► of time on your slides especially the

00:12:52 ◼   ► kind of conference is that that

00:12:53 ◼   ► listeners of the show would attend or be

00:12:55 ◼   ► asked to speak at you know a lot of like

00:12:57 ◼   ► kind of nerdy one spending a ton of time

00:12:59 ◼   ► on your slides is a massive time sink

00:13:02 ◼   ► that will never end and is probably not

00:13:04 ◼   ► worth stressing too much out about like

00:13:07 ◼   ► I mean one of my talks I gave at at

00:13:10 ◼   ► singleton a few years back I didn't even

00:13:12 ◼   ► have slides because I was like I had had

00:13:14 ◼   ► a bad experience with slides and at a

00:13:16 ◼   ► previous conference and I said all right

00:13:17 ◼   ► next next time I do one no slides it was

00:13:19 ◼   ► totally fine

00:13:20 ◼   ► like if you have a good

00:13:22 ◼   ► story to speak and you can keep people's

00:13:24 ◼   ► attention well enough by what by just

00:13:26 ◼   ► the words and it's a little bit harder

00:13:27 ◼   ► but it's possible then doing without

00:13:29 ◼   ► slides is actually kind of freeing and

00:13:31 ◼   ► wonderful but you know if you're gonna

00:13:34 ◼   ► have slides I would say again for the

00:13:37 ◼   ► people listening to this show doing like

00:13:38 ◼   ► you know geeky and programming types of

00:13:41 ◼   ► conferences I would say don't spend a

00:13:44 ◼   ► whole lot of time trying to make them in

00:13:46 ◼   ► the most incredibly designed slides ever

00:13:48 ◼   ► keep them very simple you know don't put

00:13:51 ◼   ► a lot of text on them just keep it keep

00:13:52 ◼   ► it simple you know you know single

00:13:54 ◼   ► sentences or words pictures if you have

00:13:58 ◼   ► to show pictures definitely don't be

00:14:00 ◼   ► reading off of them you know simple

00:14:01 ◼   ► stuff you can get from pretty much any

00:14:02 ◼   ► you know guide on how to do good

00:14:05 ◼   ► presentations and I think in many ways

00:14:07 ◼   ► it reminds me of app design in the way

00:14:09 ◼   ► that I have to approach it myself where

00:14:11 ◼   ► I always admire slide decks that are

00:14:15 ◼   ► beautiful and really well and put

00:14:17 ◼   ► together and really clever but the

00:14:20 ◼   ► reality is in the same way that I'm not

00:14:21 ◼   ► really an app designer and I can't make

00:14:23 ◼   ► like there's a certain kind of design

00:14:25 ◼   ► that I love to look at in an app but I

00:14:27 ◼   ► just can't do myself I understand that

00:14:30 ◼   ► in the same way when I'm designing a

00:14:32 ◼   ► keynote deck I can't make it look pretty

00:14:35 ◼   ► in that way and so all of my - all of

00:14:37 ◼   ► them the presentations I think I've ever

00:14:38 ◼   ► given I opened up keynote I choose the

00:14:41 ◼   ► first template which is a black

00:14:43 ◼   ► background with white text that's very

00:14:45 ◼   ► important by the way because if you if

00:14:47 ◼   ► you you know at any conference you see

00:14:49 ◼   ► like you see the problems when somebody

00:14:50 ◼   ► has a white background basically this is

00:14:52 ◼   ► being projected by a dim crappy

00:14:55 ◼   ► projector onto a gray wall or or screens

00:14:58 ◼   ► like anything that that has like a white

00:15:01 ◼   ► edge it's gonna be all like you know

00:15:03 ◼   ► this blurry white edge and those screws

00:15:05 ◼   ► it just goes like a big big square in

00:15:06 ◼   ► the middle the wall like whereas if you

00:15:08 ◼   ► have a black background and white

00:15:11 ◼   ► elements then those elements seem like

00:15:14 ◼   ► they're floating in the middle of the

00:15:15 ◼   ► wall there's you don't see the borders

00:15:17 ◼   ► around it basically and that's why

00:15:19 ◼   ► that's why Apple's slide deck so are

00:15:21 ◼   ► always you know when they're presented

00:15:22 ◼   ► things it's always black backgrounds

00:15:24 ◼   ► with things just kind of floating in the

00:15:25 ◼   ► middle that's why it looks better and

00:15:27 ◼   ► it's easier to see for the people in the

00:15:28 ◼   ► room and then beyond that I think like

00:15:31 ◼   ► just like you said it's being careful to

00:15:33 ◼   ► I for me my slides are usually

00:15:36 ◼   ► like a short phrase like two or three

00:15:38 ◼   ► words on each slide they're just there

00:15:40 ◼   ► for emphasis they're not there to convey

00:15:42 ◼   ► any information typically like every now

00:15:45 ◼   ► and then they'll have a slide that's you

00:15:46 ◼   ► know it's like it's a graph or it's a

00:15:48 ◼   ► picture or diagram we're supposed to

00:15:50 ◼   ► convey information but otherwise it's

00:15:52 ◼   ► just you know essentially whatever

00:15:54 ◼   ► sentence I'm saying right now if there's

00:15:56 ◼   ► something I want to emphasize it's on

00:15:58 ◼   ► the slide behind me and it's kind of

00:16:00 ◼   ► like not like a transcript in that way

00:16:02 ◼   ► but it's if you just went through and

00:16:05 ◼   ► listened and looked at the slides

00:16:07 ◼   ► they're just there to emphasize things

00:16:09 ◼   ► but then actually also I wanted to

00:16:11 ◼   ► mention too is it's the importance of if

00:16:13 ◼   ► you actually are doing this and you

00:16:14 ◼   ► actually think the experience of doing

00:16:15 ◼   ► it so you know you signed up you've

00:16:16 ◼   ► built this a presentation the actual

00:16:19 ◼   ► experience of going and giving a talk

00:16:21 ◼   ► something's to keep in mind one is you

00:16:24 ◼   ► always want to ideally you'd always want

00:16:27 ◼   ► to do it like a run-through in the in

00:16:30 ◼   ► the venue but you ideally will have your

00:16:32 ◼   ► slides on the machine that they're going

00:16:35 ◼   ► to be run on you're going to want to

00:16:37 ◼   ► have a clicker you want to stand on the

00:16:38 ◼   ► stage and you know just hit next slide a

00:16:40 ◼   ► few times make sure everything looks

00:16:42 ◼   ► good make sure you feel comfortable with

00:16:43 ◼   ► where everything is like the worst thing

00:16:46 ◼   ► is if you just you know at the last

00:16:48 ◼   ► minute hand somebody a drive which is

00:16:50 ◼   ► kind of amusing but in conferences or

00:16:52 ◼   ► the only situation and I can counter now

00:16:54 ◼   ► where I ever have to use like old USB

00:16:56 ◼   ► thumb drive yeah because that seems to

00:16:58 ◼   ► be the universal way of getting

00:16:59 ◼   ► conference slides to the organizers but

00:17:02 ◼   ► you hand that to somebody like you don't

00:17:04 ◼   ► want to be handing that to them the

00:17:05 ◼   ► moment before you step onstage because

00:17:07 ◼   ► who knows what's gonna happen when they

00:17:09 ◼   ► go try and open that keynote deck and

00:17:11 ◼   ► you want to do a quick run-through you

00:17:13 ◼   ► want to make sure everything's together

00:17:14 ◼   ► and for me at least I find too that it

00:17:16 ◼   ► helps it makes me a little less nervous

00:17:18 ◼   ► if I it's like if the all of the

00:17:21 ◼   ► practical logistic parts are taken care

00:17:23 ◼   ► of that I know I know where I'm gonna be

00:17:26 ◼   ► I know what I'm going to hold in my hand

00:17:29 ◼   ► what kind of microphone it's gonna be

00:17:30 ◼   ► for example like it makes a big

00:17:32 ◼   ► difference in terms of if you are gonna

00:17:33 ◼   ► have a handheld microphone where you're

00:17:37 ◼   ► gonna have to be aware of keeping that

00:17:38 ◼   ► in this you know in a constant place

00:17:40 ◼   ► where your mouth is if it's a lapel

00:17:42 ◼   ► microphone where you have to be careful

00:17:43 ◼   ► of how you move your shoulders because

00:17:45 ◼   ► if you have a lapel microphone sometimes

00:17:47 ◼   ► you need to be careful that you don't

00:17:48 ◼   ► turn your head

00:17:50 ◼   ► the opposite direction of your shoulders

00:17:51 ◼   ► where suddenly you kid that you your

00:17:54 ◼   ► voice starts to fall off from the

00:17:55 ◼   ► microphone or if it's the really cool

00:17:57 ◼   ► ones the ones that can like stick out of

00:17:58 ◼   ► your ear and come down where you can

00:18:01 ◼   ► have a bit more flexibility but it's a

00:18:03 ◼   ► good thing to run through that and in my

00:18:05 ◼   ► experience if you ask an organiser hey

00:18:08 ◼   ► I'd love to do a quick run-through of my

00:18:10 ◼   ► slides like I want to be more prepared I

00:18:13 ◼   ► very rarely will you encounter an

00:18:14 ◼   ► organizer who's like no no no you know

00:18:16 ◼   ► that we can't do that like their other

00:18:18 ◼   ► goal is for you to do well and so it's

00:18:21 ◼   ► always a good idea to try and do that do

00:18:23 ◼   ► a quick run-through make sure you feel

00:18:25 ◼   ► comfortable in the space and are

00:18:27 ◼   ► confident that everything's gonna work

00:18:28 ◼   ► and so you don't have those things

00:18:30 ◼   ► weighing on you as you're getting ready

00:18:32 ◼   ► to actually do it alright so now we're

00:18:34 ◼   ► going to talk about basically you know

00:18:37 ◼   ► things like is it worth doing doing

00:18:39 ◼   ► conference speaking and why you might

00:18:41 ◼   ► want to in the format etc but first our

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00:20:16 ◼   ► supporting this show so we basically

00:20:19 ◼   ► talked so far about like if you want to

00:20:20 ◼   ► do conference speaking like how you know

00:20:22 ◼   ► some general tips and pointers as much

00:20:24 ◼   ► as we can fit into like 18 minutes of

00:20:26 ◼   ► how to do it kind of you know how to

00:20:27 ◼   ► write and how to how to do some

00:20:29 ◼   ► technical sides of it I want to talk a

00:20:31 ◼   ► little bit about though reasons why you

00:20:33 ◼   ► might want to do this at all and reasons

00:20:35 ◼   ► why you might not want to do this at all

00:20:36 ◼   ► this you know if you if you get to any

00:20:39 ◼   ► level of notability in a field

00:20:43 ◼   ► especially in the tech field you are

00:20:45 ◼   ► likely to be asked to speak at some kind

00:20:47 ◼   ► of event or conference and especially

00:20:50 ◼   ► you know like in the in the in our

00:20:52 ◼   ► little world of app and tech people we

00:20:54 ◼   ► have lots of conferences big and small

00:20:56 ◼   ► many of them are kind of more

00:20:59 ◼   ► commercially run and where the speakers

00:21:01 ◼   ► are getting paid a substantial amount

00:21:03 ◼   ► and the tickets are cost a lot of money

00:21:05 ◼   ► and they're usually larger and they

00:21:07 ◼   ► usually appeal to like wide you know

00:21:09 ◼   ► wider markets like a Java conference or

00:21:11 ◼   ► whatever and then you have a lot of

00:21:13 ◼   ► these like smaller indie ones that I

00:21:16 ◼   ► think the iOS world has more of those

00:21:18 ◼   ► typically where you have like smaller

00:21:20 ◼   ► budgets oftentimes the speakers are not

00:21:23 ◼   ► getting paid either at all or like that

00:21:25 ◼   ► you know they might have their travel

00:21:27 ◼   ► expenses and ticket covered but no

00:21:28 ◼   ► additional money after that or some some

00:21:30 ◼   ► small amount like you know under $2,000

00:21:33 ◼   ► say obviously that their it varies for

00:21:35 ◼   ► you whether that's consider a small

00:21:36 ◼   ► amount but some something in that range

00:21:38 ◼   ► you know and so you can you can look at

00:21:41 ◼   ► like whether to do this as like

00:21:44 ◼   ► basically if you're going to be a

00:21:46 ◼   ► professional conference speaker if you

00:21:48 ◼   ► are going to if you want to speak for

00:21:50 ◼   ► money if the money is what drives you

00:21:52 ◼   ► here you really need to be doing it a

00:21:54 ◼   ► lot and that's why I like the people who

00:21:56 ◼   ► speak on conference circuits they tend

00:21:58 ◼   ► to make a small number of talks and give

00:22:01 ◼   ► each one a high number of times

00:22:03 ◼   ► sometimes they'll give the same talk all

00:22:04 ◼   ► around the country or are on the world

00:22:06 ◼   ► of different events for like a whole

00:22:08 ◼   ► year because that's their business that

00:22:10 ◼   ► they make one amazing talk that is

00:22:12 ◼   ► applicable to a wide audience in a

00:22:13 ◼   ► certain industry and they go around the

00:22:15 ◼   ► world and they

00:22:16 ◼   ► paid good money because that is

00:22:18 ◼   ► effectively that that's their full-time

00:22:19 ◼   ► job or that is most of their job or they

00:22:23 ◼   ► you know maybe they use that to build

00:22:24 ◼   ► credibility to sell more books or or

00:22:26 ◼   ► they write books to increase their

00:22:27 ◼   ► speaking fees my boss speaking so it's

00:22:30 ◼   ► that is a whole career and if you want

00:22:32 ◼   ► to do that that is a very different

00:22:33 ◼   ► career than being a software developer

00:22:36 ◼   ► and that might be well suited to you but

00:22:38 ◼   ► I you know you have to decide we know

00:22:40 ◼   ► whether that's the kind of career that

00:22:41 ◼   ► you want and all the things come along

00:22:42 ◼   ► with it like a lot of travel and things

00:22:44 ◼   ► like that if if that's not your goal if

00:22:48 ◼   ► your goal is simply to speak at a

00:22:51 ◼   ► conference because it might be fun or

00:22:53 ◼   ► you want to attend that conference and

00:22:55 ◼   ► that's an easy way to attend it or you

00:22:58 ◼   ► want to promote something that you are

00:23:00 ◼   ► doing like an app you're making that's a

00:23:02 ◼   ► very different job and that in that kind

00:23:04 ◼   ► of case whether or how much you're being

00:23:07 ◼   ► paid is way less important because

00:23:09 ◼   ► chances are whatever they're going to

00:23:10 ◼   ► offer you is not going to be worth the

00:23:13 ◼   ► week plus of work that you're going to

00:23:15 ◼   ► lose by if I agree to do this not to

00:23:18 ◼   ► mention that you know the value of

00:23:19 ◼   ► whatever stress it might put you through

00:23:21 ◼   ► so the money part of it I think is

00:23:24 ◼   ► almost irrelevant for most people who

00:23:26 ◼   ► are in our kind of business because it's

00:23:29 ◼   ► not going to be enough money where the

00:23:31 ◼   ► money is going to matter to you

00:23:32 ◼   ► in all likelihood so I would say ignore

00:23:36 ◼   ► the money part of it and and really

00:23:37 ◼   ► think about like do I want to do this to

00:23:40 ◼   ► promote something or to give back to a

00:23:43 ◼   ► conference I've I've loved for years or

00:23:45 ◼   ► or to just get better at public speaking

00:23:48 ◼   ► or whatever else and that's a very

00:23:50 ◼   ► different question and so like to me

00:23:52 ◼   ► I've actually decided over the last

00:23:54 ◼   ► couple of years that it is almost never

00:23:56 ◼   ► worth doing it for me because I get so

00:23:59 ◼   ► much stress about it and I lose so much

00:24:02 ◼   ► time to it and that even when I go to a

00:24:04 ◼   ► conference to speak at it I end up not

00:24:06 ◼   ► really able to enjoy that conference

00:24:08 ◼   ► until my talk is over which is often at

00:24:11 ◼   ► least halfway through it and and so it

00:24:13 ◼   ► is and like all like the the fun like

00:24:16 ◼   ► socializing and and and things that

00:24:17 ◼   ► happened before my talk I basically

00:24:19 ◼   ► don't enjoy or don't even get to attend

00:24:21 ◼   ► so I I have recently found that I would

00:24:24 ◼   ► rather just do like podcasts and

00:24:26 ◼   ► occasional blog post to get my message

00:24:28 ◼   ► out

00:24:29 ◼   ► hardly ever speak at conferences and

00:24:31 ◼   ► then just attend conferences because I

00:24:32 ◼   ► enjoy them and that way I'm able to

00:24:34 ◼   ► enjoy them rather than really do a lot

00:24:36 ◼   ► of talks and that that's why I do almost

00:24:38 ◼   ► no talks anymore what do you think so I

00:24:41 ◼   ► think there's a tricky balance and I

00:24:44 ◼   ► think for sure I think you're right in

00:24:45 ◼   ► the sense that I don't do conferences

00:24:47 ◼   ► for financial reasons like they're out

00:24:49 ◼   ► there they're definitely a loss part of

00:24:52 ◼   ► my professional career at this point

00:24:54 ◼   ► like that's and going down the route of

00:24:55 ◼   ► trying to do it more professionally

00:24:57 ◼   ► where you would actually get reasonable

00:24:58 ◼   ► speaking fees and things it's just a

00:24:59 ◼   ► whole other world that I don't really

00:25:01 ◼   ► have much interest in and I think when I

00:25:04 ◼   ► was starting out I had the first time

00:25:06 ◼   ► like a conference organizer reached out

00:25:07 ◼   ► to me and said hey I think you'd be a

00:25:08 ◼   ► good fit for this conference I remember

00:25:12 ◼   ► it's like I wanted to do it mostly just

00:25:14 ◼   ► just so that I would have done it and

00:25:17 ◼   ► none it's nothing like a like a oh look

00:25:20 ◼   ► at me I've done it kind of thing but a

00:25:22 ◼   ► bit to eliminate this like the fear of

00:25:24 ◼   ► it that I think public speaking is one

00:25:27 ◼   ► of the things that it's so easy to get

00:25:30 ◼   ► scared of to really have genuine honest

00:25:32 ◼   ► fear about but the only way you can

00:25:35 ◼   ► really get over that is to sort of work

00:25:37 ◼   ► on it and try it and if you're well

00:25:39 ◼   ► prepared it's a it's less scary than you

00:25:42 ◼   ► might expect and largely I do conference

00:25:45 ◼   ► speaking now just for the purpose of

00:25:47 ◼   ► practicing and developing that skill to

00:25:50 ◼   ► make it easier and better for myself

00:25:52 ◼   ► down the road to give myself

00:25:54 ◼   ► opportunities that I may not otherwise

00:25:56 ◼   ► have to speak at there are some

00:25:58 ◼   ► conferences that I you know have would

00:26:01 ◼   ► have always wanted to go to for example

00:26:03 ◼   ► and it's like you have the goal of like

00:26:05 ◼   ► well maybe one day I could get to speak

00:26:06 ◼   ► at that and the only way you're going to

00:26:08 ◼   ► be sort of good enough to do that is if

00:26:10 ◼   ► you have practiced and one thing I will

00:26:13 ◼   ► say is a nice way to start out if you're

00:26:17 ◼   ► kind of trying to feel this out for

00:26:18 ◼   ► yourself is this something that's worth

00:26:20 ◼   ► it for you is it something that you'd

00:26:21 ◼   ► like to do is to start small and there's

00:26:24 ◼   ► a lot of conferences that are small like

00:26:27 ◼   ► really like I think of like Coco Kampf

00:26:29 ◼   ► is an example of this where it's a

00:26:31 ◼   ► relatively small multitrack conference

00:26:33 ◼   ► that is probably able you know anyone

00:26:36 ◼   ► with who is able to put in some

00:26:38 ◼   ► preparation could probably speak at or

00:26:40 ◼   ► another example there's a lot of user

00:26:41 ◼   ► groups you know Wow

00:26:43 ◼   ► often speaking is a bit more

00:26:44 ◼   ► sophisticated a lot of local you know

00:26:47 ◼   ► user groups will have monthly things

00:26:49 ◼   ► where someone gets up and talks for 10

00:26:51 ◼   ► minutes 20 minutes about something cool

00:26:52 ◼   ► they're working on and you can kind of

00:26:53 ◼   ► get a feel for it but it is a tricky

00:26:55 ◼   ► question to say like is it worth it

00:26:58 ◼   ► because I think it's something that you

00:27:01 ◼   ► typically are doing for reasons other

00:27:03 ◼   ► than strictly rational reasons like it's

00:27:06 ◼   ► for me it's a lot of it's about

00:27:07 ◼   ► conquering of fear and being comfortable

00:27:10 ◼   ► doing this so that I don't have this

00:27:12 ◼   ► part of my professional skill set that I

00:27:16 ◼   ► feel like is do is you know isn't there

00:27:18 ◼   ► because while the nature of being an

00:27:20 ◼   ► developer and doing work you know

00:27:23 ◼   ► largely by myself it's not that I need

00:27:25 ◼   ► to keep working have tremendous

00:27:27 ◼   ► communication skills but I would feel

00:27:29 ◼   ► bad about letting those skills just sort

00:27:33 ◼   ► of fall waste and so overall I think it

00:27:36 ◼   ► is a tricky thing to find that balance

00:27:38 ◼   ► and I think it is very important to

00:27:40 ◼   ► understand that it is a huge cost and

00:27:42 ◼   ► sink in terms of time that you know it

00:27:45 ◼   ► we're all said and done like I'm

00:27:47 ◼   ► speaking at all this year and that's a

00:27:50 ◼   ► conference that's in Ireland so in

00:27:52 ◼   ► addition to like roughly it may be a

00:27:54 ◼   ► week's worth of prep I'm also going to

00:27:56 ◼   ► be flying somewhere and dealing with jet

00:27:57 ◼   ► lag and then dealing with jet lag on the

00:27:59 ◼   ► way back in many ways we had these

00:28:01 ◼   ► similar conversations when we're talk

00:28:02 ◼   ► about going to WWDC like is it worth it

00:28:05 ◼   ► to go to that where you know you can

00:28:07 ◼   ► kind of get a lot of the the feeling of

00:28:09 ◼   ► it without actually going you can get a

00:28:12 ◼   ► lot of the information but there is

00:28:13 ◼   ► something different about actually going

00:28:15 ◼   ► and for me conference speaking is a

00:28:17 ◼   ► great way to kind of get myself to go to

00:28:19 ◼   ► more conferences because I feel it's a

00:28:22 ◼   ► hard thing to sometimes decide uh-huh

00:28:24 ◼   ► you know do I want to pay to travel

00:28:26 ◼   ► don't want to pay to buy ticket and be

00:28:28 ◼   ► away from my family to attend it makes

00:28:30 ◼   ► it a little bit easier where I feel like

00:28:31 ◼   ► I'm I'm accomplishing something by doing

00:28:34 ◼   ► that that I'm getting better at speaking

00:28:35 ◼   ► as a result and typically it's helpful

00:28:37 ◼   ► that they pay for the accommodation the

00:28:39 ◼   ► travel and the ticket but there is

00:28:42 ◼   ► definitely a balance to be struck there

00:28:43 ◼   ► between is am I getting enough out of it

00:28:46 ◼   ► and the nice thing about conference

00:28:48 ◼   ► speaking is you know if you really want

00:28:50 ◼   ► to do it and pursue it a lot you can

00:28:52 ◼   ► probably find opportunities to do that

00:28:53 ◼   ► if you only want to do it one or two

00:28:54 ◼   ► times you can probably find a way to do

00:28:56 ◼   ► that

00:28:57 ◼   ► like there's an easily scalable up and

00:28:59 ◼   ► down between the two extremes yeah

00:29:02 ◼   ► and I mean you know to close this out

00:29:04 ◼   ► cuz we're out of time now I think I

00:29:06 ◼   ► would say if you are on the fence about

00:29:07 ◼   ► whether to speak at a conference reasons

00:29:10 ◼   ► that you that you don't need to worry

00:29:12 ◼   ► about are things like what if I'm

00:29:13 ◼   ► terrible at it what if people laugh at

00:29:15 ◼   ► me is like that that doesn't really

00:29:16 ◼   ► happen in this community like that that

00:29:19 ◼   ► literally never happens so you don't

00:29:21 ◼   ► have to worry about that I think what

00:29:22 ◼   ► you mainly have to worry about is is it

00:29:24 ◼   ► worth it to me and and if you've never

00:29:26 ◼   ► done it before it's a good reason just

00:29:29 ◼   ► do it as you know just just try it just

00:29:30 ◼   ► to find out if it's worth it for you you

00:29:32 ◼   ► might find that you love it

00:29:33 ◼   ► you might find that you hate it but you

00:29:35 ◼   ► should you know if you have the

00:29:36 ◼   ► opportunity to try it try it and then

00:29:39 ◼   ► decide from there exactly and I think

00:29:41 ◼   ► that's the right way to think about it

00:29:42 ◼   ► just keep an open mind to it and it's an

00:29:45 ◼   ► important thing to just try and if it

00:29:49 ◼   ► doesn't work that's no problem

00:29:50 ◼   ► but if you've learned something about

00:29:51 ◼   ► yourself in the process alright thanks

00:29:54 ◼   ► everybody for listening and we'll talk

00:29:55 ◼   ► to you next week bye