Under the Radar

◼   ► welcome to under the radar a show about

◼   ► independent iOS app development I'm

◼   ► Marco Arment and I'm David Smith under

◼   ► the radar is never longer than 30

◼   ► minutes so let's get started so you as

◼   ► the listener would probably not be aware

◼   ► of this but Marco and I have actually

◼   ► been doing a fair bit of traveling

◼   ► recently and so we've the you know we've

◼   ► been having an interesting cycle of

◼   ► recording shows slightly out of sequence

◼   ► or bunching them up but for me the most

◼   ► most recent thing was the last last week

◼   ► I went on a 110 mile Appalachian Trail

◼   ► like backpacking trip and did by myself

◼   ► and ended up with a lot of time too

◼   ► so I guess as I was wandering around to

◼   ► think about you know anything about

◼   ► think about my work think about whether

◼   ► the things I was making and as a result

◼   ► of that I think it came with it with a

◼   ► topic that would be interesting to

◼   ► discuss here I guess you could say I

◼   ► developed some perspective

◼   ► well I while I was out on my walk and

◼   ► specifically the something that I kept

◼   ► coming back to was this feeling that one

◼   ► of the things that is the biggest

◼   ► challenge I faced in in my work and I

◼   ► think as an independent is something

◼   ► that is a pretty common challenge to to

◼   ► deal with it's this feeling of how do

◼   ► you deal with like difficult hard often

◼   ► not particularly interesting problems

◼   ► that are necessary or are part of the

◼   ► you know the part of the work that you

◼   ► do because you know I was as I was

◼   ► walking along I was thinking about kind

◼   ► of like the tasks that I'd like to do in

◼   ► my apps you know what are the big

◼   ► features what are the things that I want

◼   ► to tackle and I noticed that almost

◼   ► everything on the list at this point you

◼   ► know for a lot of my apps are fairly

◼   ► mature the things that I run into now

◼   ► are these difficult hard problems that

◼   ► you know I know we're solvable it's not

◼   ► like I'm doing doing some kind of R&D

◼   ► thing where I'm junior I just want to

◼   ► like go and invent some crazy new thing

◼   ► it's like these aren't problems that I

◼   ► feel like ours should be in the realm of

◼   ► solvable but they're difficult

◼   ► but they're hard and being motivated to

◼   ► tackle them when it isn't the situation

◼   ► that I have you know have a boss who's

◼   ► assigning them to me like here's this

◼   ► feature that you must implement you know

◼   ► here's what you're going to work on for

◼   ► the next three weeks if that were the

◼   ► case that might be a little bit easier

◼   ► but you know when I have to choose to

◼   ► essentially I have to choose to

◼   ► undertake the pain that I know is going

◼   ► to be implementing that feature going

◼   ► down the road of you know lots of dead

◼   ► ends lots of features lots of you know

◼   ► false starts and you know it attempts at

◼   ► this particular solution that turns out

◼   ► to not work out being motivated to do

◼   ► that is something that I struggle with

◼   ► but in retrospect when I look at it I

◼   ► always yeah it's like some of the

◼   ► features that I'm most proud of tend to

◼   ► be you know features where I was able to

◼   ► get over that hump and actually start

◼   ► working actually get into it actually

◼   ► solve it you know and then I can look

◼   ► back and it's usually that's that's the

◼   ► cool stuff that's the stuff that

◼   ► separates my apps from you know my

◼   ► competitors are trying to tackle these

◼   ► features and one thing that I think and

◼   ► so as a surface a jumping in point for

◼   ► this I would wanted to say is I've

◼   ► always admired with you Marco that it

◼   ► seems like these are you kind of these

◼   ► are the features that you almost seem to

◼   ► relish in doing that going off on these

◼   ► several month like vision quests where

◼   ► you dive down into these really

◼   ► complicated low-level or hard to solve

◼   ► problems and then you know coming back

◼   ► with really cool solutions is something

◼   ► that you've done time and time again for

◼   ► all of the products that you've made and

◼   ► so as I was sitting there we're

◼   ► wandering around and being thinking

◼   ► about this I was like you know what I

◼   ► need to do I need to ask Marco like how

◼   ► do you motivate yourself to tackle those

◼   ► kinds of problems when you know they're

◼   ► going to be difficult to get started

◼   ► with I think it's a lot of like what's

◼   ► what satisfies you as a programmer like

◼   ► what do you most like to do and you know

◼   ► this is different for a lot of people

◼   ► typically you know what's what's fairly

◼   ► common among most programmers is that we

◼   ► like to generally work on new things at

◼   ► least you know so that's

◼   ► that's like one-one you know big gimme

◼   ► is like you know we are almost always

◼   ► motivated to to work on something new

◼   ► that's it that interests us for me one

◼   ► of those things is tricky low-level code

◼   ► some kind of like you know low-level

◼   ► dealing with bits or bytes or sound or

◼   ► algorithm type things that aren't too

◼   ► academically hard but that require like

◼   ► low-level messing around I always really

◼   ► enjoy that stuff so you know it in in

◼   ► overcast there's things like the audio

◼   ► engine you know all the effects the be

◼   ► smart speed of voice boost effects you

◼   ► know that that stuff always I just did

◼   ► enjoy it and when when there's something

◼   ► like that that I enjoy you know like

◼   ► most programmers I would I think I would

◼   ► rather work on the kind of thing I enjoy

◼   ► even if it means you know ignoring or

◼   ► procrastinating the more boring things

◼   ► that I probably should also do I think

◼   ► this is a problem most programmers have

◼   ► the only question is what those

◼   ► interesting things are I mean to me like

◼   ► here I was like writing this crazy you

◼   ► know watch offline transcoding engine

◼   ► and at the same time ice overcast is

◼   ► almost three years old and I've never

◼   ► had an email change form and my password

◼   ► resets are I think a little bit broken

◼   ► that that is totally backwards

◼   ► priorities like I really like I get

◼   ► emails from people I'd say almost every

◼   ► day saying hey is there a way for me to

◼   ► change my account email address and the

◼   ► answer is no there isn't and there

◼   ► really should be I should have done that

◼   ► like on week one or week two overcast

◼   ► almost three years ago but I haven't

◼   ► because it's it's never you know the

◼   ► idea of doing that is like you know

◼   ► terminally uninteresting to me to the

◼   ► point where anything else that I have to

◼   ► do with the app has taken priority over

◼   ► that for the last two two-and-a-half

◼   ► years and so for me like diving into

◼   ► these really hard tricky problems is you

◼   ► know it's often procrastination and it's

◼   ► off it's just it's what I like to do

◼   ► it's like

◼   ► anything I like to do for me like what's

◼   ► what's heavily motivating usually is

◼   ► either things that are things that make

◼   ► me money directly like like you know

◼   ► writing an ad system writing that system

◼   ► has actually been a lot more work than I

◼   ► expected it to be it's you know it's not

◼   ► I'm not like writing a whole network

◼   ► like Adsense or anything but just

◼   ► putting the parts in place to have a

◼   ► decent ad system that's that's but

◼   ► that's good for both me and the buyers

◼   ► of the ads and the users and you know

◼   ► and all the different like little

◼   ► management tools you need like the

◼   ► ability to like to monitor how they're

◼   ► doing and give people stats and issue

◼   ► refunds if necessary and things like

◼   ► that you know I I'm having to build all

◼   ► this stuff from scratch and I'm I've

◼   ► been mostly motivated to do that pretty

◼   ► well because it is directly related to

◼   ► how I'm making money and it's doing well

◼   ► so far so that that motivates me on that

◼   ► angle but also I get very heavily

◼   ► motivated by doing something cool with

◼   ► you know with low level stuff you know

◼   ► like this morning so we're doing were

◼   ► actually doing live shows we as we

◼   ► mentioned on this show I think a couple

◼   ► of weeks ago we are doing under the

◼   ► radar live at Cocoa conf at WBC that

◼   ► COCOMs running a conference called next

◼   ► door which is like literally next door

◼   ► down the block from the from Muska or

◼   ► from the San Jose Convention Center

◼   ► where WBC is being held and we will be

◼   ► doing this show live that week on the

◼   ► Tuesday because I think June 6th right

◼   ► at about 1:45 p.m. Pacific and and I'm

◼   ► also also doing ATP live the day before

◼   ► then the evening before at Coco Kampf

◼   ► I mean sorry adult conf rather and so

◼   ► we're doing these live shows and I

◼   ► thought you know it would be nice if I

◼   ► had a soundboard app for ATP and a timer

◼   ► app for this show and to show on my

◼   ► computer screen during the show so this

◼   ► morning I I spent this morning writing a

◼   ► sound board there are a million sound

◼   ► board apps out there but none of them

◼   ► were exactly what I wanted I wanted of

◼   ► course my own custom thing because I'm

◼   ► I'm picky like that and so I spent the

◼   ► morning writing a sound board I was

◼   ► woken up early by my allergies I

◼   ► couldn't breathe anymore so I figured

◼   ► let's get to programming it can't sleep

◼   ► anymore so let's get the program

◼   ► so so that was you know novel it was

◼   ► kind of dealing with audio stuff because

◼   ► of course I had to build in things like

◼   ► automatically detecting when the out

◼   ► when the output device becomes

◼   ► unavailable and putting up a little

◼   ► alert thing on the top so I don't you

◼   ► know so I noticed that if I'd happens

◼   ► during recording stuff I'm never gonna

◼   ► really need like I'm really glad that

◼   ► that makes no no sense I shouldn't have

◼   ► written my own soundboard app there's

◼   ► there's many of them in the App Store on

◼   ► the Mac App Store there's probably even

◼   ► more in iOS and there's probably eat

◼   ► there's even more of them outside of the

◼   ► App Store but I wrote it anyway because

◼   ► I had a few hours to kill I was

◼   ► delirious from waking up too early on

◼   ► allergy medicine and I decided you know

◼   ► what this is gonna be a fun thing to do

◼   ► and I approached the the watch offline

◼   ► playback thing with pretty much the same

◼   ► motivations - the allergy component

◼   ► because it was at the winter time and my

◼   ► motivation there was really like I I

◼   ► want to you know IIIi was I wanted to

◼   ► make this feature and why I wanted to

◼   ► make it I guess we can get into some

◼   ► other time or maybe later but I wanted

◼   ► to make this feature and I knew it was

◼   ► not going to be used by a lot of people

◼   ► but I thought if I'm going to do this

◼   ► feature I need to do it well and the

◼   ► biggest problem was you know on the like

◼   ► transferring files to the watch like

◼   ► there's no I couldn't do smart speed on

◼   ► the watch and the trend the file

◼   ► transfers were giant and too slow to

◼   ► chance to transfer so I decided let me

◼   ► see if I can write a transcoding engine

◼   ► because you know I I phones are pretty

◼   ► fast these days and so what this this

◼   ► was kind of like a like a perfect storm

◼   ► of motivations for me to do something

◼   ► which is that it was a hard technical

◼   ► challenge none of my competitors as far

◼   ► as I know were doing it and it

◼   ► accomplished something that I think most

◼   ► people thought wasn't possible or

◼   ► wouldn't have thought to do and I love

◼   ► that combination like to me that's a

◼   ► huge motivator and then to end it to

◼   ► also involve you know there's this

◼   ► low-level audio stuff that I enjoy so

◼   ► much was it was just the cherry on top

◼   ► and then of course up

◼   ► zatia trying to make the transcodes

◼   ► faster it's a fun game to play when

◼   ► you're a programmer of like hey you know

◼   ► if I if I change the way I do this it

◼   ► becomes 10 times faster let's see how

◼   ► many times I can do that and it it ends

◼   ► up just being very satisfying and this

◼   ► is this was one of the problems with

◼   ► being an indie and not having anybody

◼   ► like telling me what I need to be

◼   ► working on that often times these kind

◼   ► of deep dives into difficult technical

◼   ► features often times these are not a

◼   ► good idea often times they're not an

◼   ► efficient use of your time in fact I

◼   ► would say probably most of the time they

◼   ► aren't an efficient use of your time but

◼   ► because I define my own you know to-do

◼   ► list basically and that's one of the

◼   ► benefits of doing your own products

◼   ► because it I find my own to-do list I

◼   ► basically take the indulgence of doing

◼   ► cool things like this because it let's

◼   ► be honest it is largely an indulgence to

◼   ► be able to do stuff like this cuz you

◼   ► know a lot of times you're not gonna get

◼   ► paid back on I mean I did this entire

◼   ► watch offline playback feature and so

◼   ► far it's being used by something like

◼   ► 0.2% of users every day it's it's very

◼   ► very low according to my awesome

◼   ► home-built analytics which I also built

◼   ► but there's actually isn't awesome it is

◼   ► home built analytics I would not

◼   ► describe it as awesome but so you know

◼   ► it's being used by very few people it

◼   ► probably isn't the best idea for

◼   ► business to have done it if I am honest

◼   ► with myself but it was a really hard

◼   ► problem that that satisfied me immensely

◼   ► while working on it it is right am I in

◼   ► my wheelhouse of like low-level audio

◼   ► stuff that I enjoy working on so much

◼   ► and it gave me a competitive advantage

◼   ► even though it's a very very small one

◼   ► but it gave me a competitive advantage

◼   ► at least for the time being and I'm you

◼   ► know I'm sure that won't last very long

◼   ► but for the time being it's there and so

◼   ► all those it just it forms motivation

◼   ► like when it has a combination like that

◼   ► whereas if you are somebody who doesn't

◼   ► like working on low level C code for

◼   ► dealing with core audio stuff or you

◼   ► know whatever it whatever your hard

◼   ► problem that's facing you might be if

◼   ► that doesn't interest you I totally get

◼   ► why you wouldn't want to do it or you

◼   ► know why you'd why you procrastinated or

◼   ► you know just try to find ways around

◼   ► doing it

◼   ► and there's lots of things like that for

◼   ► me just not this kind of thing yeah

◼   ► because I feel like what I'm hearing is

◼   ► it's the a it's like the first step is

◼   ► to kind of try and understand yourself

◼   ► and understand what things are going to

◼   ► mix you know what things are you going

◼   ► to enjoy building are you gonna be

◼   ► motivated to build what's the kind of

◼   ► thing you know what would be like Lola

◼   ► who audio stuff just sounds awful to me

◼   ► like my little experience with that has

◼   ► always been you know pain and suffering

◼   ► rather than you know joy and delight and

◼   ► so like for me you know it's like those

◼   ► probably aren't the directions to that

◼   ► you know would motivate me to go into

◼   ► and I think maybe there's something a

◼   ► interesting and understanding that you

◼   ► know in you and I in some ways are as

◼   ► similar at premium professionally as two

◼   ► people could be in some ways you know

◼   ► we've both been doing the same basically

◼   ► the same job for the last eight years

◼   ► you know we do it in fair in sort of

◼   ► fairly similar ways we make our living

◼   ► fairly similarly yeah but even there

◼   ► even still we have these varied I think

◼   ► very different preferences and things

◼   ► that we would act the parts of the job

◼   ► that we actually enjoy and so it's good

◼   ► to just I think be introspective

◼   ► probably first and understanding you

◼   ► know it when I see myself

◼   ► procrastinating I think one of the

◼   ► things that I've started to try and ask

◼   ► myself it's like why don't I want to do

◼   ► that because usually there's a reason

◼   ► and sometimes it's a good reason and

◼   ► sometimes you know it's a bad reason but

◼   ► you know the end up with lots of the but

◼   ► you end up with the you know this funny

◼   ► situation of at a certain point like

◼   ► either you know when you're independent

◼   ► you either will be in the situation

◼   ► where the thing just won't get done

◼   ► because there's not like there's someone

◼   ► else on the team who it can get punted

◼   ► to it's like it's you're you're going to

◼   ► do it or you're not and so trying to at

◼   ► least understand why you're not doing it

◼   ► you know there are many features and I

◼   ► mean I have whole apps that you know

◼   ► I've sort of I've half-heartedly built

◼   ► or I

◼   ► I didn't it's nice for some reason

◼   ► didn't catch my imagination I guess you

◼   ► could say it's like if it if it didn't

◼   ► if it doesn't have that getting can't

◼   ► get over that initial hump it'll just

◼   ► sit there and kind of languish and even

◼   ► when it might from a business

◼   ► perspective be a good idea or you know

◼   ► from a just in a utility to the world's

◼   ► perspective might be a good thing like

◼   ► theirs if it doesn't catch my attention

◼   ► I know I won't really be able to do it

◼   ► and so it is something that I don't but

◼   ► I think increasingly and this is where I

◼   ► was trying to think I'm sort of coming

◼   ► around to is well while I think that is

◼   ► how I've acted for for a long time now

◼   ► like I look at my board my business and

◼   ► I think you know like I think I'm by

◼   ► allowing myself to do the things that

◼   ► only the things that I enjoy I'm

◼   ► probably hurting the effectiveness of my

◼   ► of my business which is you know which

◼   ► is problematic in some ways but honestly

◼   ► like the more fundamental thing that I'm

◼   ► starting to worry about and I'm starting

◼   ► to think about a lot more is I'm not

◼   ► getting better at a very fast rate

◼   ► anymore that you know my skills and my

◼   ► abilities as I go down this would be you

◼   ► know as I keep doing the things that I'm

◼   ► good at and enjoy doing I get better I

◼   ► get incrementally better at doing those

◼   ► things but I don't tackle these bigger

◼   ► harder problems and you know it's like

◼   ► your example of like a password reset

◼   ► form or an email change form like it's

◼   ► not that that's a hard text problem to

◼   ► do but I know for myself

◼   ► I have all these features sort of in

◼   ► that vein that I haven't done

◼   ► and as a result like they're probably

◼   ► disproportionately more difficult to do

◼   ► than they should be because it shouldn't

◼   ► be that hard to do a lot some of these

◼   ► things they're fairly straightforward

◼   ► but if you put them off for long enough

◼   ► and you know at a certain point it

◼   ► actually does become difficult because

◼   ► you become very rusty at doing those

◼   ► kinds of things yeah I mean otherwise it

◼   ► would take a lot of rust to be too rusty

◼   ► to make an email change form but sure

◼   ► you know and there's a couple things

◼   ► there I want to unpack

◼   ► you know one of them the the getting

◼   ► better at new things and learning the

◼   ► things that I think we should we should

◼   ► come back to but also you know I think

◼   ► it's important that as I mentioned like

◼   ► one of the one of the benefits of

◼   ► working for yourself is being able to to

◼   ► look at a lot of the things that that

◼   ► the world wants you to do or that you

◼   ► think you're obligated to do and on some

◼   ► of those you can just say no and not all

◼   ► of them and you know some of them are

◼   ► more important than others some of them

◼   ► there's there's more ramifications if

◼   ► you if you don't do them you know that

◼   ► you should think about but you know like

◼   ► so many things I think there's a healthy

◼   ► balance to be found you know you're an

◼   ► indie you have the ability to not do

◼   ► stuff you don't want to do and you have

◼   ► the ability as I said earlier to to you

◼   ► know take the indulgence of working on

◼   ► something that might not be worth the

◼   ► time you're putting into it in pure

◼   ► business terms but that you might want

◼   ► to do anyway it's it's kind of like

◼   ► eating dessert well you know that's

◼   ► that's why I use I use the term

◼   ► indulgence because like you're allowed

◼   ► to give yourself that you're allowed to

◼   ► do these something cool that that it

◼   ► doesn't make sense for that from the

◼   ► business as long as you don't only do

◼   ► that as long as you don't you don't do

◼   ► that out of balance such that your

◼   ► business will suffer and you won't be

◼   ► able to do this anymore like and that's

◼   ► this is a balance that many many

◼   ► companies and Indies have a hard time

◼   ► striking you know everyone has like

◼   ► their pet project they would love to do

◼   ► or their their their preferred way of

◼   ► doing things and and if it's if it

◼   ► doesn't make sense business-wise to do

◼   ► that

◼   ► you can still do it sometimes you know

◼   ► you can have fun with things you can

◼   ► have side projects you can you can you

◼   ► know take the the indulgence of doing

◼   ► some kind of like crazy ridiculous thing

◼   ► to make your app 1% better because you

◼   ► just wanted to do it that just can't be

◼   ► all you do and similarly you know the

◼   ► list of things that like it's a huge

◼   ► problem if you don't do them there are a

◼   ► few things on there that that's true for

◼   ► but that isn't true for the whole list

◼   ► and as an indie I feel like you should

◼   ► you should let yourself have that that's

◼   ► part you know we as Indies we do a lot

◼   ► of a lot more you know administration

◼   ► and management of stuff like taxes and

◼   ► accounting all stuff like we take on a

◼   ► lot of burdens there and we also take a

◼   ► huge risk compared

◼   ► people who work for other people and I

◼   ► think part of the reason we take that

◼   ► and part of the payoff of doing that is

◼   ► this ability to to you know miss spend

◼   ► some of our time because we can we can

◼   ► decide to do that as long as it doesn't

◼   ► cause problems for the business as a

◼   ► whole you know as long as we keep

◼   ► everything a balance this episode of

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◼   ► of this show and all of real afm all

◼   ► right so I think it is worth coming back

◼   ► a little bit to what you said earlier

◼   ► about you know that you're you aren't

◼   ► getting better as quickly as you used to

◼   ► or as quickly as you want to and that's

◼   ► so you know

◼   ► if you do like the indie indulgence I do

◼   ► it I want kind of thing like for too

◼   ► long then this this is a problem that

◼   ► like you will only do the things that

◼   ► you want to do and you won't get better

◼   ► other things and hi I have the same

◼   ► problem in in a lot of areas you know

◼   ► it's so you know for example things like

◼   ► I haven't really been pressured to learn

◼   ► Swift because why would I you know look

◼   ► as we've discussed like wait there's

◼   ► some reasons I'm kind of interested in

◼   ► it a little bit and everything but like

◼   ► when it comes down to you know what I

◼   ► actually do day to day there's nothing

◼   ► really pushing me to learn it right this

◼   ► second or to convert or anything or to

◼   ► write new code and Swift you know right

◼   ► now

◼   ► there is no like you know big standard

◼   ► we also talked about how neither of us

◼   ► are very heavy unit testers

◼   ► there's nothing forcing us to become

◼   ► heavy unit testers but you know certain

◼   ► things do it bring new topics to us and

◼   ► new skills to us out of necessity so

◼   ► things like you know when when it when

◼   ► the AppStore economic landscape shifts

◼   ► around we're forced to do different

◼   ► types of business models are forced to

◼   ► try things like freemium and ads and

◼   ► things like that and and so I feel like

◼   ► just being in this ecosystem does push

◼   ► us into a few new things here and there

◼   ► but obviously not you know every kind of

◼   ► thing I'm wondering like is there is

◼   ► there a specific kind of area or example

◼   ► that that you feel like you you know

◼   ► should be getting better in but just are

◼   ► not being pressured to I mean I think

◼   ► the hardest thing about that question is

◼   ► that it's it falls a lot in the it's

◼   ► like the it's an unknown loss that it's

◼   ► like it's hard for me to know exactly if

◼   ► there's a particular area where I'm

◼   ► deficient because in some ways by the

◼   ► very nature of it being a deficiency

◼   ► being an area that I'm not exposed to

◼   ► being something that I'm not

◼   ► you know it's forcing myself to

◼   ► undertake I don't understand what I'm

◼   ► missing out on and so it's it's tricky

◼   ► like but I think about the situations

◼   ► where like I used to be really scared

◼   ► about dealing with low-level core

◼   ► graphic stuff like that was an area like

◼   ► doing animations or things like that

◼   ► that I used to think

◼   ► we're really it was it was just this

◼   ► whole this little black box that I never

◼   ► opened up that it was just terrifying to

◼   ► me and I read more recently like I've

◼   ► gotten used to that and like I in

◼   ► activity plus plus was in area where

◼   ► it's like I hit this wall where I was

◼   ► trying to make this animation and all of

◼   ► a sudden it's like the only way I'm

◼   ► going to be able to do this is if I drop

◼   ► down a level and so I it's like well I

◼   ► really liked this thought I had in my

◼   ► mind for what the animation would look

◼   ► like and so I dived I drove in and I

◼   ► really you know like learned all this

◼   ► crazy stuff and got it to work and it's

◼   ► like now I have this whole other tool

◼   ► set that I can you know as I'm looking

◼   ► at problems in you know my other apps

◼   ► are in new apps I have this whole tool

◼   ► set that I just completely didn't have

◼   ► before and these capabilities that I

◼   ► didn't even like I sort of

◼   ► intellectually knew probably existed but

◼   ► I didn't really understand what that

◼   ► meant and I think that is like that

◼   ► experience that you can sort of

◼   ► intellectually know that something is

◼   ► possible but until you've actually done

◼   ► it it can be really you don't really

◼   ► know what you're missing out on and I

◼   ► think when I the the thing that I was

◼   ► trying to sort of Chasen myself with in

◼   ► this experience or like in this thought

◼   ► process that I've been having recently

◼   ► is the I don't know what all those

◼   ► things are that I'm missing and but I

◼   ► know that they exist and I want to try

◼   ► and motivate myself to tackle problems

◼   ► that are difficult so that I can

◼   ► discover what those things are because

◼   ► you know the things that I do understand

◼   ► the things that I have a great handle on

◼   ► are the things that are easier are the

◼   ► things that came more naturally to me

◼   ► like another area that I think is

◼   ► something that I'm trying to think about

◼   ► more is having a better understanding

◼   ► around graphic design not necessarily in

◼   ► terms of like app design but in terms of

◼   ► you know like actual art type of things

◼   ► and having a better sense of that worry

◼   ► wreck right now with this big scary

◼   ► thing that like I could never do that

◼   ► but I guess history has shown me that

◼   ► all these things that I say oh I could

◼   ► never do that are probably just things

◼   ► that I haven't

◼   ► tried and applied myself too and it's

◼   ► it's an interesting reminder that you

◼   ► know that's the skills that I have now

◼   ► at some point probably look like they

◼   ► you know these other things look to me

◼   ► now do yeah that's fair but you know I

◼   ► think also like the life of an indie is

◼   ► its broad like they're they're you know

◼   ► like I think graphic design is a good

◼   ► example because like there are lots of

◼   ► things like deep Lilla programming

◼   ► things that that we won't need to know

◼   ► or shouldn't know because we have to be

◼   ► a little more broad and we have to also

◼   ► know about things like accounting and

◼   ► and business setup to some minor degree

◼   ► and things like graphic design a

◼   ► marketing like we like there is so much

◼   ► out there that we need to know that like

◼   ► you know you you might have already

◼   ► picked up lots of these things along the

◼   ► way but you might not be giving yourself

◼   ► credit for them like it you might you

◼   ► know it sounds like certain things that

◼   ► you perceive as like these big walls

◼   ► that that are intimidating to you in

◼   ► some way that those things count in

◼   ► professional development or betterment

◼   ► but that the the things that you that

◼   ► you pickable on the way of being an

◼   ► independent person and doing things the

◼   ► way that you do them especially like so

◼   ► thoroughly and and analytically you've

◼   ► built and picked up lots of skills along

◼   ► the way in that area that you probably

◼   ► don't even that you you probably just

◼   ► you know did it so gradually or so

◼   ► automatically or did it without thinking

◼   ► too much about you know how you were

◼   ► bettering yourself during that time that

◼   ► you aren't even giving yourself credit

◼   ► but that all counts like you were

◼   ► getting better you you've been getting

◼   ► better lots of things over time they

◼   ► just might not be like low-level API is

◼   ► sure and I mean maybe yeah I think

◼   ► you're it's you're probably true that

◼   ► I'm being oh I'm being too hard on

◼   ► myself with this this thought process

◼   ► but yeah I think maybe that may be the

◼   ► final takeaway to think about this it's

◼   ► just I think it is probably a good thing

◼   ► to be conscious of how we're approaching

◼   ► difficult problems to see if we're not

◼   ► doing them we're not approaching them

◼   ► for the right reasons

◼   ► because fair enough I'm never going to

◼   ► be as good of an icon designer as

◼   ► someone like Louie Mantia I mean to be

◼   ► fair enough very few people yeah

◼   ► right and so like it's not like my goal

◼   ► is to do that it's not that I'm trying

◼   ► to be everything and to accomplish all

◼   ► like to do everything all my own but

◼   ► just because I can't get to that end

◼   ► it's probably still good for me to look

◼   ► at something and say well what could I

◼   ► do you know what could I learn what's in

◼   ► what's one area that I can try and solve

◼   ► the difficult problem and by doing so

◼   ► make myself better and that is almost

◼   ► certainly going to be a productive

◼   ► exercise and with that we're out of time

◼   ► this week thank you everybody for

◼   ► listening and we'll talk to you next

◼   ► week right