Under the Radar

◼   ► welcome to under the radar a show hood

◼   ► independent iOS app development I'm

◼   ► Marco Arment and I'm David Smith under

◼   ► the radar is never longer than 30

◼   ► minutes so let's get started

◼   ► so we want to record a regular episode

◼   ► this week and in our preamble where we

◼   ► just kind of casually talk with each

◼   ► other before we record we ended up

◼   ► having a better discussion than whatever

◼   ► we were gonna talk about so we're we're

◼   ► gonna use that as the episode this week

◼   ► just some some context here I've been

◼   ► thinking about trying various ways to

◼   ► bring back watch offline audio playback

◼   ► for overcast you can play a background

◼   ► audio if you're a workout app so one

◼   ► option I'm considering is just making

◼   ► overcast a workout app on the watch

◼   ► where it would have to start its own

◼   ► workouts manage them in the overcast

◼   ► interface and then you know you could

◼   ► you can play the stuff in the background

◼   ► offline as long as they workout is

◼   ► running in the overcast app and as it

◼   ► has all sorts of problems and everything

◼   ► but it would work you know you you are

◼   ► the audio and watch expert I don't know

◼   ► nearly as much about the watch OSAP eyes

◼   ► as you do so you know I've been bouncing

◼   ► questions off of you of like can I do

◼   ► this can I do this like what are the

◼   ► downsides of this you also know a lot

◼   ► about health kit and dealing with health

◼   ► care which I have no experience with so

◼   ► I'm asking I've been asking you

◼   ► questions like you know what are the

◼   ► downsides of being a workout app and

◼   ► having to save data to health kit and

◼   ► work with health kit and how all the

◼   ► permissions for that and you've been

◼   ► experimenting with a project to have a

◼   ► workout audio player on the watch right

◼   ► yeah and so I've been playing since the

◼   ► LTE watch was announced I was like well

◼   ► maybe I need to try this and that it

◼   ► because as we get into and the

◼   ► discussion you know here it's a lot of

◼   ► things become pump more possible on the

◼   ► watch if you are a workout app I was

◼   ► like well I have a workout app I have

◼   ► workouts plus plus and the point of

◼   ► workouts opposed plus is to be this sort

◼   ► of super user like lots of customization

◼   ► kind of you know power app and so maybe

◼   ► adding podcasts playback to that

◼   ► wouldn't be crazy and so I've been

◼   ► experimenting with it and kind of

◼   ► building this out and it's in the II

◼   ► like working prototype stage at this

◼   ► point and it's kind of interesting to

◼   ► see you know is this a viable thing does

◼   ► it make sense and do we want to take it

◼   ► on

◼   ► yeah hopefully you enjoy the discussion

◼   ► it's I personally I think I like these

◼   ► kinds of discussions where because like

◼   ► Marco and I we do this a lot it's

◼   ► probably fair to say like where it's

◼   ► useful to think through something out

◼   ► loud where there's you you're dealing

◼   ► with all these problems sequentially and

◼   ► you're able to benefit from each other's

◼   ► experience and just kind of see how

◼   ► these things evolve and you often end up

◼   ► in a place that's so different than what

◼   ► you may have thought you would when you

◼   ► were starting all right so with that

◼   ► here's our discussion we were having

◼   ► about these crazy things enjoy the

◼   ► episode and right before we start we are

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◼   ► progress in workouts plus plus podcast

◼   ► player that's good it's just so slow to

◼   ► download and that it works like it's

◼   ► just it makes me feel like I'm down like

◼   ► downloading these files on a like a

◼   ► dial-up modem and so that makes me like

◼   ► I'm very curious to see what like an 80%

◼   ► faster Wi-Fi chip and the new watch will

◼   ► be and and I forget so last time when

◼   ► you were talking about this and telling

◼   ► me all the wonderful things you were

◼   ► finding the conclusion I believe you

◼   ► came to was

◼   ► it's pretty much impossible to do it

◼   ► right without an active workout running

◼   ► so you're like if you're just using

◼   ► audio file player in the background and

◼   ► you're not doing a workout

◼   ► what do the main is the main problem

◼   ► still that like it doesn't wake your app

◼   ► up when somebody hits the end and stuff

◼   ► like that I think it is it's along those

◼   ► lines yeah like a you'll have weird

◼   ► issues for example around interaction

◼   ► with the now playing control for example

◼   ► and things because in order to interact

◼   ► correctly with an out playing control

◼   ► you have to be running because you need

◼   ► to be constantly monitoring the status

◼   ► of the cue player because when they hit

◼   ► forward

◼   ► it's obviously you're not actually it's

◼   ► not skipping the file forward it's it's

◼   ► doing a next track and so you need to

◼   ► intercept that and override it there's a

◼   ► lot of things like that that if you're

◼   ► not doing a workout you won't have the

◼   ► ability to to do that interception like

◼   ► you'll get your little background you

◼   ► because as far as its concerned you've

◼   ► said play this file and it'll just

◼   ► merrily play it to the end or are they

◼   ► hitting it there are they hit next and

◼   ► then it would just stop I wish they

◼   ► would just wake you up in the background

◼   ► whenever like an event like that

◼   ► happened either somebody reaches the end

◼   ► or somebody advances to the next thing

◼   ► in the queue like sure I mean I mean

◼   ► they should and they're like I'm gonna

◼   ► up now playing side there's a ton of

◼   ► stuff that you really should do there

◼   ► yeah I rather than just like doing craze

◼   ► doing whatever to the file it should

◼   ► probably be in the same way that on iOS

◼   ► it does like you get a like an app

◼   ► delegate callback that says this button

◼   ► was pressed and then leave it up to me

◼   ► to do whatever I want to do with that I

◼   ► mean they probably don't do that because

◼   ► if they're gonna suspend you you

◼   ► probably can't be resumed fast enough to

◼   ► be responsive fund fundamentally the

◼   ► architecture is intended to be that if

◼   ► you are running that like it's this

◼   ► fire-and-forget kind of a thing that you

◼   ► say like play this file and then you can

◼   ► kill the app and it would be fine

◼   ► whereas in order to really do it

◼   ► properly you need to always be running

◼   ► which in the current form means you

◼   ► neither need to be a turn-by-turn

◼   ► navigation app or you need to be a

◼   ► workout app and also there's a bunch of

◼   ► other just like things that seem like if

◼   ► you're like keeping track of how far

◼   ► they've gotten for like bookmarking

◼   ► reasons and things

◼   ► um being a workout app is also something

◼   ► that seems somewhat important to be able

◼   ► to in the same way like I mean

◼   ► functionally the way I've built it now

◼   ► it just once a second I have the timer

◼   ► going and I'm just keeping track of how

◼   ► far they got and then also seeing has

◼   ► the cue changed and if it has adjusted

◼   ► you know she's restarting it thirty

◼   ► seconds ahead essentially you know it's

◼   ► mostly I do the back button still

◼   ► doesn't work but as far as I can tell I

◼   ► can't fix that because with a cue like

◼   ► the cue is strictly forward moving it

◼   ► doesn't go backwards because I get first

◼   ► what I was good at first what I did is I

◼   ► I set the cue up as play thirty seconds

◼   ► of silence played the podcast play

◼   ► thirty seconds of silence in the hope

◼   ► that if you hit back it would go back to

◼   ► the first thirty seconds of silence I

◼   ► can detect that you've jumped backward

◼   ► and then readjust play accordingly but

◼   ► that didn't work because hitting back

◼   ► just does nothing it just stops so this

◼   ► is I can tell there's nothing to be done

◼   ► there like it when you're playing the

◼   ► file the back button is like meaningless

◼   ► there's no like all it does is stop

◼   ► playback so I don't know that seems like

◼   ► that's just a bug and or a limitation of

◼   ► how he's implemented yes afford works

◼   ► and play pause works and now you're

◼   ► making me do this cuz like I figure I

◼   ► pretty much have the file transfer side

◼   ► of it solved I have my transcoding

◼   ► engine trend it makes it lower bitrate a

◼   ► base in smart speed if I do it again

◼   ► what I'm gonna do basically is just have

◼   ► it automatically sync stuff over

◼   ► overnight is there our background app

◼   ► refresh for the main extension like

◼   ► could I wake up them like periodically

◼   ► throughout the night and like cue up a

◼   ► back you a URL task or something like is

◼   ► that a thing I can do you you could you

◼   ► could ask to send the file to the watch

◼   ► but you would have no visibility as to

◼   ► when or if that is actually going to

◼   ► happen right there's no way for the user

◼   ► to prioritize or activate that so like

◼   ► you could in your app overnight say hey

◼   ► here's this file when

◼   ► when when it's convenient please

◼   ► transfer it to the watch and that would

◼   ► work but you don't know when and like

◼   ► that's the part of it like for when I

◼   ► was thinking through on my side of

◼   ► things I was like I needed up I'm just

◼   ► going to do it that it downloads using

◼   ► you know nsurl connection or nsurl

◼   ► session because it that way at least I

◼   ► can show the user what's going on by

◼   ► giving them that sense of feedback at

◼   ► least it's not frustrating for like well

◼   ► where's my file yeah I and it's like I

◼   ► see where you're going that I think it

◼   ► works in so far as like if you can do it

◼   ► when they're not when they're not paying

◼   ► attention and it works well enough then

◼   ► that may be good enough and you think

◼   ► that overnight if you play like if your

◼   ► watch is plugged in and your phone is

◼   ► plugged in that it would be use that as

◼   ► a good opportunity to move things across

◼   ► unless it needs for them to be unlocked

◼   ► yeah like I wonder like it is the

◼   ► session even active if they're both

◼   ► locked sitting on the table yeah that's

◼   ► a weird question because I don't know if

◼   ► it would say that hey this is a great

◼   ► opportunity to do it right or it would

◼   ► say the watch is off the wrist I'm not

◼   ► gonna do anything is the watch connected

◼   ► in the same way like is it in a like I'm

◼   ► asleep state because I'm not connected

◼   ► to a wrist anymore I don't know yeah so

◼   ► it's a bit of a mess I think I think

◼   ► first I will try the file transfer thing

◼   ► I'll just like set it up and just you

◼   ► know just but I don't have any playback

◼   ► you I just to see like is it able to

◼   ► stay on top of things that could

◼   ► automatically transferred overnight my

◼   ► idea is just like an automatically sync

◼   ► over like your whole queue and then you

◼   ► know once you finish that like you know

◼   ► basically try to sync overlay 24 hours

◼   ► of audio that's like you know finish the

◼   ► cue and then start just pulling new

◼   ► podcasts that have come in that aren't

◼   ► yet there and just just have tried to

◼   ► sink as much as possible if the workout

◼   ► hack is a way to simulate a decent or

◼   ► semi decent podcast audio player I'm

◼   ► going to go through all that all that

◼   ► hassle if it can be an overall good

◼   ► experience for the people who choose to

◼   ► go all-in on it so if you're willing to

◼   ► do a workout while you're playing things

◼   ► on your watch which I think most people

◼   ► are probably going to be doing one

◼   ► anyway during those times I'm willing to

◼   ► have this work again if everything else

◼   ► can be good like if the transfer

◼   ► experience can be good if the playback

◼   ► can be you know passable the awkward

◼   ► thing is just it's just so hard to know

◼   ► like the reason you ended up pulling it

◼   ► is because it worked but it didn't work

◼   ► well yeah and I suspect you will still

◼   ► have that same experience of like it'll

◼   ► work but it won't work well yeah and

◼   ► then you get into is it the same reason

◼   ► for the same reason that you pulled it

◼   ► last time is it better to just wait and

◼   ► hope that 4.1 or something will make it

◼   ► better and like ship it when it really

◼   ► works rather than it it's kind of a

◼   ► bundle of hacks in a lot of ways and the

◼   ► way I'm thinking about that now is like

◼   ► first of all like things have changed

◼   ► now with the release of the LTE watch

◼   ► demand is now going to be way higher so

◼   ► that changes the calculus a little bit

◼   ► because now all of a sudden like there's

◼   ► way more people who are going to be

◼   ► wanting standalone playback also if I

◼   ► make it a workout app that also solves

◼   ► the other purpose of just being

◼   ► convenient when you're working out like

◼   ► that that's gonna be the app that's

◼   ► gonna pop up first when your watch

◼   ► screen wakes up that you're gonna be

◼   ► able to see everything on just one

◼   ► screen instead of having to like pay

◼   ► between two things in the watch app

◼   ► horse or swap between two apps with like

◼   ► the rapid swapping features or like it

◼   ► can be better in these ways beyond what

◼   ► it was before if that makes sense

◼   ► oh sure I mean then you're thinking if

◼   ► you're a workout app then it's just you

◼   ► need to do all the health stuff yeah but

◼   ► but like so so what are the repos

◼   ► already have a privacy policy what else

◼   ► do I need I mean I think the biggest

◼   ► things is you look these easy ones like

◼   ► you have to add a disclaimer to your

◼   ► apps or description saying that you

◼   ► integrate with health that's all right I

◼   ► already have a big pile of those for

◼   ► subscriptions yeah it's like you need to

◼   ► have we need to do that and then it's

◼   ► just you'll need to add some at some

◼   ► point you'll need to throw up

◼   ► the health prompt requesting access on

◼   ► the phone to their health data like a

◼   ► very common thing that'll happen is they

◼   ► will gather that they'll not acted

◼   ► they'll not turn them all on and then be

◼   ► like why isn't my data there or the

◼   ► permissions won't sync correctly and so

◼   ► you have to tell them to go to the

◼   ► health app go to sources click your app

◼   ► turn them all off turn them all on

◼   ► Oh usually that resets it these are just

◼   ► like from a support perspective that

◼   ► come up with the health frameworks

◼   ► because there is such a like all of the

◼   ► permissions and privacy stuff that you

◼   ► then have to navigate just is a bit more

◼   ► tricky I don't think there's that you

◼   ► have to deal with people getting annoyed

◼   ► if you're for whatever reason you don't

◼   ► save the data correctly but I mean

◼   ► that's just like people people keep CC

◼   ► there they're very precious about their

◼   ► workouts of course so like if the app

◼   ► crashes during the workout they're very

◼   ► upset because they're like I'm working

◼   ► hard to earn this stat and you stole it

◼   ► from me that is worth a joke and

◼   ► actually how they feel like it feels

◼   ► like I took something from them that

◼   ► they worked towards when I suppose it's

◼   ► true in some ways but yeah I mean those

◼   ► are the big things I mean it's just it's

◼   ► just one other it's one other Avenue for

◼   ► things too that you have to now manage

◼   ► in terms of be like both the user

◼   ► experience which is a little awkward as

◼   ► well as I mean in general the confound

◼   ► haven't had too many issues on like the

◼   ► compliance or worry about people's data

◼   ► because I don't actually store any of

◼   ► their data all their data is in the

◼   ► health app if the only thing I'd be

◼   ► doing here is activating a workout

◼   ► session displaying its data on the

◼   ► screen during it and then saving it to

◼   ► health care that's it the other thing

◼   ► you'll have to navigate on your side

◼   ► that's related to that is Deakin I think

◼   ► you will have a fair bit of confusion

◼   ► around needing to have a workout active

◼   ► to start offline playback yeah and then

◼   ► that they need like if you send the

◼   ► workout the playback will stop will

◼   ► likely be more confusing because when

◼   ► you're playing from your phone that's

◼   ► not the case like you use the watch app

◼   ► while you're playing from your phone you

◼   ► there's no connection whatsoever and so

◼   ► I think they'll likely be confusing as

◼   ► to want I think why do I need to why do

◼   ► I need to start a workout I'm not

◼   ► working out to her I don't want to drain

◼   ► my battery with the heart rate monitor

◼   ► all the time I just want to listen to a

◼   ► podcast it's like well you need to

◼   ► because the primary purpose is to look

◼   ► for your app is to listen to the podcast

◼   ► not to do a workout I imagine there will

◼   ► be a dissidence there

◼   ► that's oh definitely yeah and that's

◼   ► that's the main argument for whether I

◼   ► should or shouldn't do this or not is

◼   ► like how bad is that basically yeah like

◼   ► how bad is combining these things and

◼   ► then what happens like if watch OS 5

◼   ► gives me the ability to do it without a

◼   ► workout then do I remove all these

◼   ► features that like yeah you are taking

◼   ► on the people's expectation that oh this

◼   ► is the app I use for a workout now yeah

◼   ► and so you are you then becoming a

◼   ► workout app forever and if they have

◼   ► Apple changes the way workouts can do or

◼   ► adds capabilities for workouts will you

◼   ► then have the problem of people being

◼   ► like oh I want you going to support the

◼   ► new something something workout system

◼   ► it but it may not really besides it's

◼   ► not really at all aligned with the core

◼   ► goal of the app I guess the advantage

◼   ► there is like they don't add new workout

◼   ► types that often usually it's like it's

◼   ► once a year it's you know during the

◼   ► watch OS update they'll add a few new

◼   ► ones so like it and the way I'm

◼   ► picturing the UI is like I replace the

◼   ► star button with a workout start/stop

◼   ► button and it pops up a tableview list

◼   ► that just says like alright pick your

◼   ► workout type and and you know it can't

◼   ► be smart and like you know sort the last

◼   ► ones you've used on top just throw that

◼   ► with the same the system workout app

◼   ► does yeah but like it doesn't matter how

◼   ► long that list is and then the API for

◼   ► all of them is the same so it wouldn't

◼   ► add like I think it would only add

◼   ► elements to that list as the workload

◼   ► right sure I mean necessarily I might

◼   ► just like workout types I think that's

◼   ► like so there's an example the recent

◼   ► addition in this I can watch OS 4 you

◼   ► can now do location tracking so you can

◼   ► get the map of where you walked while

◼   ► you went for your walk but in order to

◼   ► do that you need to implement all the

◼   ► core location stuff yourself oh I didn't

◼   ► know that wait so if I just start a

◼   ► workout and I do like just record like

◼   ► you know like I saw the this code sample

◼   ► online when I looked at it like last

◼   ► month and so if I just do like you know

◼   ► saving like the samples or whatever that

◼   ► does it it doesn't keep a GPS map no oh

◼   ► god so you have to implement that

◼   ► yourself

◼   ► otherwise you lose the ability to have

◼   ► your GPS maps oh that's really bad so

◼   ► this is the this is that's more what I

◼   ► mean where it's really uh it's like as

◼   ► people's expectations for what a workout

◼   ► like because then if all of the overcast

◼   ► workouts don't have location data

◼   ► then is that gonna be annoying and

◼   ► frustrating and know what we want not

◼   ► what they want and do you want to go

◼   ► down the road for now implementing core

◼   ► location tracking and so on so that's

◼   ► more what I mean conceptually what

◼   ► you're sort of herders it's like having

◼   ► a workout app that's super minimal I

◼   ► mean maybe you could even just like all

◼   ► I can do is runs and walks right like

◼   ► even if you just said that that's what

◼   ► it does it's like it's just four runs

◼   ► and walks it's the purpose of any sort

◼   ► of like pedometer plus plus is workout

◼   ► app we're on the on the watch you can

◼   ► say like start a walk which for

◼   ► pedometer plus plus kind of it's like

◼   ► outdoor walk is the only workout type

◼   ► yeah because it's it's a pedometer like

◼   ► that's what it's it's four counting

◼   ► steps so narrowing it in that way it

◼   ► doesn't limit it too much but is it

◼   ► because you know your core purpose is

◼   ► not specific in fact it has nothing to

◼   ► do with working out it may be something

◼   ► that people do while they work out but

◼   ► it's got nothing to do with working out

◼   ► like it's I don't know and of course

◼   ► they have to worry about your cards that

◼   ► you're still worrying about your card

◼   ► API and your massive redesign and so who

◼   ► knows maybe you've got time you get

◼   ► finished with your cards watch it was a

◼   ► five will have come out and then it will

◼   ► all be a mute you know who all be fixed

◼   ► at that point so you don't even have to

◼   ► worry about it oh man alright so if I

◼   ► wanted to do this right I would have to

◼   ► not only have all the workout stuff

◼   ► starting and stopping the workout have

◼   ► that being basically tied to the

◼   ► play/pause button where they would like

◼   ► disable it when you're not running a

◼   ► workout but also have location tracking

◼   ► in my Abdur in the workout presumably

◼   ► I'd have to just like you know do

◼   ► continuous monitoring save the samples

◼   ► yep can you give location access with a

◼   ► prompt that only appears in the watcher

◼   ► does it prompt you on the phone I think

◼   ► it'll still show up on the phone they've

◼   ► made it anyone watch was for a couple of

◼   ► the prompts are now on the like the

◼   ► motion and Fitness one which is the one

◼   ► that I'd like interact with a lot is now

◼   ► possible to used to use to have to do it

◼   ► on the phone

◼   ► now it'll pop up and say you can approve

◼   ► it from the watch but yes I think health

◼   ► ones still require that you go to the

◼   ► phone which makes sense because they're

◼   ► so much more complicated

◼   ► and I don't know about location it

◼   ► wouldn't surprise me if you can do it on

◼   ► the watch now just because they did it

◼   ► for a look motion and fitness as well

◼   ► but I don't know that for sure this is

◼   ► just adding more and more clunkiness

◼   ► sure it does right and now all in any of

◼   ► the same thing it's like now you have a

◼   ► question of you need to have navigate

◼   ► people with location privacy or people

◼   ► come like try it looks like why does my

◼   ► podcast player need to know where I am

◼   ► and those types of questions which are

◼   ► enough attack both because if you want

◼   ► your workout map then I have to do this

◼   ► but all right so what if so what if I

◼   ► don't do workout stuff at all

◼   ► and I and just to recap so if I go back

◼   ► if I if I do wk audiophile player

◼   ► yeah I'm sure like what's the best I

◼   ► could do so like the bet that the

◼   ► problems that so now we know the

◼   ► problems of doing a workout at all this

◼   ► confusion all this overhead all this you

◼   ► know additional having to prompt for

◼   ► permissions and manage those permissions

◼   ► and everything maybe involving the phone

◼   ► and so ok if I go back to not having a

◼   ► workout go back to the way I was doing

◼   ► it before just this time with dub UK

◼   ► audio file player instead of AP audio

◼   ► ap file play whatever it is the main

◼   ► downsides to that is if somebody hits

◼   ► next track or previous track on their

◼   ► pods playback will stop and it will it

◼   ► won't be able to be restarted until they

◼   ► you know go to my app again and you

◼   ► won't know where they left off so what

◼   ► so if they got alright so fundamentally

◼   ► like the problem is that it's like you

◼   ► if you if you go down that road like the

◼   ► issue is it changes it from being able

◼   ► to like be the basic expectation with a

◼   ► podcast that you have a bookmark where

◼   ► you're keeping track and you like are

◼   ► offsetting from that doesn't work unless

◼   ► you can keep track of that bookmark

◼   ► right so if the user so let's say you

◼   ► know they they get back to their house

◼   ► they end the workout and they turn off

◼   ► their headphones or whatever it is like

◼   ► they they stop playback somehow and I'm

◼   ► not notified of that at all right not at

◼   ► all or at least you are almost certainly

◼   ► not like your app theoretically could be

◼   ► in the like if it was the last thing

◼   ► they had running you may be in the not

◼   ► fully background

◼   ► but not for grounded state so you may

◼   ► have some visibility but you have no

◼   ► guarantees of that or no expectation of

◼   ► of getting that event because it's not

◼   ► an event that you get like you know you

◼   ► would get the event when they finish it

◼   ► you'll get the like did finish to end

◼   ► notification the next time your app was

◼   ► for grounded but but it won't wake me up

◼   ► in the background and tell me it love

◼   ► these events as they happen oh I don't

◼   ► believe so now this I hate this so much

◼   ► why isn't this easy yeah

◼   ► our engineers they're our job is to

◼   ► solve hard problems because like

◼   ► literally like every day I'm gonna be

◼   ► getting questions from people every

◼   ► single day with LTE watches saying why

◼   ► haven't you done this yet why is there

◼   ► no podcast Apple I haven't you'd like

◼   ► and the worst thing is if Apple does it

◼   ► if Apple does their version of podcasts

◼   ► if they bring it to the watch they're

◼   ► gonna use real api's that I can't use

◼   ► and so that's gonna just make me look

◼   ► bad and make my user to complain and I'm

◼   ► gonna lose users for that because

◼   ► they're gonna be like well y-you know

◼   ► what if Apple can do it why can't you do

◼   ► it you know they're already oh also

◼   ► while I have you here talking about

◼   ► audio api's is there any streaming API

◼   ► that we can use on the watch said the

◼   ► only way to do streaming as best I can

◼   ► tell would be to so it would be to do

◼   ► the crazy hack saying I mentioned before

◼   ► I used to do in the first version of

◼   ► audio books back in iPhone OS - yeah

◼   ► where I would download mp3 files

◼   ► sequentially and after I had like the

◼   ► first the first two Meg's of it

◼   ► I would tell to give hand give that

◼   ► those two Meg's to the player and then

◼   ► have it start playing those and then

◼   ► keep backfilling like the you know it's

◼   ► like I'm on a train trying to build the

◼   ► tracks as I go yeah which is not

◼   ► straight it's like is is streaming in so

◼   ► far as most people's definition of

◼   ► streaming is just instant playback

◼   ► technically streaming is a different

◼   ► thing than fast start for most user

◼   ► expectation perspective streaming is

◼   ► fast start so as long as you could do

◼   ► something like that you would from a

◼   ► user's perspective it would base

◼   ► they'd be streaming and I mean you'd

◼   ► hope like if the watch is fast enough

◼   ► and the network connection is fast

◼   ► enough like if the download completes in

◼   ► you know ten seconds

◼   ► it doesn't really matter like the fact

◼   ► that it you have to wait ten seconds

◼   ► like that's not a huge killer like even

◼   ► if you're streaming there's usually like

◼   ► a buffering interval so yeah but yeah

◼   ► there's no there's not a strict

◼   ► streaming interface in the same way that

◼   ► like AV player you can just pass an HD

◼   ► HTTP URL and it takes care of it for you

◼   ► everything has to be file based yeah and

◼   ► we don't have the kind of low-level

◼   ► access that I could like do my own thing

◼   ► like I do in the phone version like cuz

◼   ► I don't use AV player but like I just I

◼   ► used raw audio playback API is that I I

◼   ► download the files and chunks myself I

◼   ► pass them as I have them to you know

◼   ► it's like but I can't do any of that on

◼   ► the watch because there's no core audio

◼   ► right or at least not not for not enough

◼   ► for background and playback yeah you

◼   ► would have the same problem you would

◼   ► have the same problem of using AV AV

◼   ► audio player where you can use AV audio

◼   ► player if you're a workout app but then

◼   ► you don't integrate with the now playing

◼   ► in or the now playing they're not

◼   ► playing app and you also can't control

◼   ► audio volume as a result so if the

◼   ► Bluetooth volume on the headsets is set

◼   ► too low

◼   ► there's no way to raise it up right yes

◼   ► I had that problem dramatically it's

◼   ► like at least if you use the file player

◼   ► API or the cue player API then you can

◼   ► change its correctly ties into it and so

◼   ► then you could say if you like I'm

◼   ► expecting to have a little I can detect

◼   ► what the current system audio is is that

◼   ► I can detect what the system volume is

◼   ► at least so I can tell you if it's if I

◼   ► can I know if it's low like if the

◼   ► system volume is like 0.2 then I can at

◼   ► least know that and pop up a thing that

◼   ► says please adjust your volume in the

◼   ► now playing app or something like that

◼   ► like I can at least tell you I can't I

◼   ► can't do it for you yeah that still

◼   ► sucks like it's it still sucks that like

◼   ► the experience of this will suck but at

◼   ► least it's better than like it just

◼   ► being super low and the user of not

◼   ► really knowing why or having any idea of

◼   ► how to change the yeah and having no no

◼   ► mechanism for I want so badly for these

◼   ► like I would just

◼   ► the phone audio api is on the lawyers

◼   ► like why why don't we have I mean I mean

◼   ► I will say it reminds me in the best

◼   ► possible like both in a lovely and in a

◼   ► terrible way of all the development I

◼   ► did for with audio api's in an iPhone OS

◼   ► 2 like way back what is that eight years

◼   ► ago like I was dealing with back then I

◼   ► mean I remember it was a massive deal

◼   ► like huge like applause during the

◼   ► keynote when when Steve Jobs was playing

◼   ► and playing of playing us playing a

◼   ► track in Pandora and then he hit the

◼   ► home button and it didn't stop playing

◼   ► yeah that was like rip-roaring applause

◼   ► for something that now seems like

◼   ► completely foolish like and I remember

◼   ► having to build all these crazy like

◼   ► there's still a setting in audio books

◼   ► auto resume playback on launch which at

◼   ► the time I was an important feature

◼   ► right now I get some people being like

◼   ► why would I want to do that like when I

◼   ► open the app why should just like

◼   ► immediately start playing it's like well

◼   ► back in the day you'd get a text message

◼   ► and you'd quit the app and it would stop

◼   ► playing your audio and you know you'd

◼   ► apply to your text message and you'd

◼   ► come back to the app and you have to

◼   ► respring the whole thing because there

◼   ► wasn't multitasking so it would restart

◼   ► the app from scratch and then you'd want

◼   ► to keep playing I'm like that was that

◼   ► was the world in which I had to be I had

◼   ► to build things and like for the phone

◼   ► Fiat the watch feels like the phone did

◼   ► you know eight years ago in the same

◼   ► room in that way yeah except by year

◼   ► three of the phone we had multitasking

◼   ► maybe this June maybe next year you know

◼   ► we just need to wait one recycle or 4.1

◼   ► maybe or 4.2 I don't know

◼   ► so this is show I think we just made a

◼   ► show an intentionally the accidental the

◼   ► accidental technical podcast I hear

◼   ► accidental podcasts are very successful

◼   ► so yeah maybe it's a good it's a good

◼   ► pivot for us Wow well thanks for

◼   ► listening everybody and we'll talk to

◼   ► you next week