Hello Internet

H.I. #92: Grey Honeypot


  hello this is Brady speaking into the

  microphone I should ask you what you

  have for breakfast I always forget to do


  three protein Weetabix protein Weetabix

  what the hell is that it's like a

  special type of Weetabix it's got a bit

  of extra protein in it

  what's a Weetabix if you don't know what

  we do Pixar this conversation is beyond

  repair so I've done a thing yesterday oh

  yeah you know how sometimes I don't know

  if this happens to you or not but

  sometimes you do a thing and something

  happens and like it just fills you with

  so much excitement and enthusiasm that

  you want to like tell the whole world

  about it but you realize that when you

  tell people they're not gonna be as

  impressed as you feel about it and now I

  don't actually have this experience very

  often but I can imagine that this is an

  experience that you have quite a lot for

  you well let me give you the background

  first right okay in my house like at the

  top floor is where my office is and I

  actually have two offices I have like

  one that I'm in now where I have my

  computer in my desk and I do my editing

  and do the podcast and whatnot and you

  have your memorabilia

  there's Lego boxes photographs of

  astronauts yeah I like it to be like a

  nice environment like an old-school

  gentleman's office oh I've got a ye

  oldie map of South Australia and

  Adelaide on the wall and Ian Rush

  scoring one of his goals in the 1989 FA

  Cup final in which Liverpool beat

  Everton three two things like that

  you're sitting in a big plush leather

  chair right now as you record this I

  believe I am in the leather chair yeah

  it's got like the nice green office

  walls that you would expect from an old

  scholarly office anyway we're getting

  off subject here and then I have like a

  second office that is supposed to be

  also like my personal room with a TV and

  a sofa where I could be banished to

  watch sport but it's kind of more

  evolved into like an office as well and

  it's where I do a lot of recording and I

  have luck so I have some video equipment

  in there and some lights and stuff but

  it's supposed to be a nice looking room

  all the rooms in the house are supposed

  to be nice looking because my wife likes

  a nice looking house and you do have a

  very nice-looking house pretty thank you

  alright let's not go there thank you

  very much you're very kind okay so the

  problem is over the last sort of six

  months or so largely because of hello


  there has been an encroachment it's been

  spreading like a disease of cardboard

  and cardboard boxes as we've had things

  like project revolution and operation

  Twinkletoes and things like that

  there's like packaging in boxes and

  material and packing materials coming to

  my house more and more often and like

  what started in just a corner of the

  second office has been gradually

  expanding and spreading until it's

  almost engulfed my second office with

  cardboard boxes and it's just a big wall

  of beige yeah and it's even starting to

  slowly leak into my nice offer oh yeah

  so anyway the chief designer of the

  house has been in my ear she's not been

  pleased about it huh we've got guests

  coming at Christmas and she said enough

  Sanath you have to get rid of all this

  stuff but I can't get rid of it you have

  been slowly accruing a Hello Internet

  distribution center in your house I mean

  that's what it sounds like

  yeah another big problem is the

  proliferation of brown papers from

  numberphile videos that I don't throw

  away so I've got filing cabinets upon

  filing cabinets of rolls of brown paper

  with mathematical scribbles over it for

  the last X number of years of

  numberphile I can't be able to throw

  them away because I think they're like

  historical items and quite collectible

  so anyway this week I did something I've

  been thinking about for quite a while

  and yesterday I went and hired my very

  own storage like locker apartment place

  off-site oh okay okay

  and I cannot tell you how much pleasure

  it is giving me at the moment like it

  feels so industrial and so like it

  really appeals to that caveman part of

  my personality because it's like it's

  this really cool place with all these

  anonymous rows of mysterious still

  locked apartments and I've got my own

  one with a code number and a lock and I

  have to go in these like really cool

  goods lifts that are like old-fashioned

  lifts where you have to pull all the

  doors and the shutters open yourself and

  it's this really amazing place and then

  I've got my own secret cave I'm packing

  up all the brown papers and all the

  boxes and memorabilia and stuff into

  containers and taking them there and

  stacking them up and creating this like

  special place and it's just bringing me

  so much happiness that I'm just looking

  for excuses to go there like oh I think

  I might take this box to the storage

  locker check it in the back of the car

  sign in say hi get out the big trolley

  and roll the trolley to my car and put

  the boxes on the trolley and then yank

  open the goods lift it's also industrial

  and I love it and it's like my own

  special place and it's like a little

  expansion of my domain and my empire it

  just makes me so happy I mean it sounds

  like you're gonna move in Brady we bring

  in chairs and toilets right in a sink

  soon in in your storage space I mean is

  that was gonna happen that's what it

  sounds like it's disappointingly small

  and very unlivable but also it's just

  creating so much space here in my at

  home like these filing cabinets that

  have been like just absolutely

  overflowing with brown papers for the

  last year or two and now completely

  empty oh my goodness I can put other

  stuff in these now this is what I was

  gonna say that was like Brady I don't

  know anybody who ever genuinely solves

  the problem of I don't have more space

  with getting more space this is always a

  very temporary solution at best in my

  experience so I'm very happy for you I'm

  glad that everything's gonna get cleared

  out for the holidays but somehow I think

  with you which you're already

  approaching here I was like wow look at

  all this space I have at home what could

  I possibly do with it I think that's

  that's what's gonna end up here no it

  means I can take stuff that's been out

  and visible there shouldn't be and put

  it into the storage space they had

  previously been filled up with all the

  papers and things like that so I think

  it's gonna create less clutter I mean

  you sound exactly like my wife and

  actually just before the show I was

  talking to the Duke from Venezuela and I

  was telling him about my storage locker

  and I said I'm gonna talk about and

  hello Internet until grey about it and

  somehow in the back of my head I thought

  maybe you would like share and you would

  tell me some story about some storage

  thing that you've done off-site but he

  just said no grey is gonna slay you for

  that that's so anti gray and I'm so sure

  I think maybe you think this is kind of

  cool but the Jake was right okay well

  there's two different things here I

  completely agree with you

  that storage lockers are kind of cool

  yeah like if I was gonna have to run a

  business that doesn't seem like a bad

  one and because it's like don't have to

  do very much you're just renting space

  it's it's relatively automated there's

  also a antle's understand the

  appreciation of those places because

  there's something logistic e about them

  it's it's like there's movement of

  objects like you say you have like the

  trolleys it's very pleasing to pack

  stuff like I get I get all of that yeah

  but I have never in my life had a

  storage unit like that in addition to

  the place that I lived right or so even

  when my wife and I were living in a

  single studio flat or before that when

  my wife and I were just sharing a

  bedroom in a shared flat with a bunch of

  other people like we didn't ever have a

  storage space the only time I ever used

  a storage space was in college which was

  I think just for the first summer where

  it was simply easier to just pack up my

  belongings into a big storage container

  for the summer and then go home and then

  return and get it all out of there but I

  can't imagine using it as a permanent

  little house annex or logistics

  distribution center in the way that you

  were using it I hope it works for you

  Brady I hope that you clear up all the

  space but I do think that the problem is

  like whenever you do have you clear up

  space like this space invites more

  things look I get you I get this hole

  you know

  nature abhors a vacuum and I'm just

  gonna fill the empty space up with more

  crap and I'm also not saying that I

  couldn't be more ruthless with my

  throwing away of stuff I'll acknowledge

  those two problems but I genuinely think

  I have created a situation that is not

  my fault that has resulted in me having

  very large things that don't really

  belong in a house like all these huge

  bits of cardboard you need to package up

  vinyl records and huge rolls of bubble

  wrap and you know all this stuff and

  there's more stuff coming and like it's

  kind of it's not my fault but it's not

  good looking and we you know we we like

  running a tight ship in the house I want

  it to look nice and there aren't many

  storage solutions that you can have in a

  nice-looking house that can hold all

  this stuff so I think I've had no choice

  but to go off-site I do

  because in a normal house the solution

  to this would be the basement right like

  you put everything downstairs in the

  basement but the way your house is laid

  out is that the basement is actually a

  very nice other room like it's it's a

  kitchen eating area so your house

  doesn't have the normal like oh right

  there's this underground cellar where we

  can we can put all the things so you

  simply don't have that option and yes I

  am actually giving you much less of a

  hard time than that I can imagine people

  might think I would give you over this

  because I do understand that once you

  take on the burden of sending out shoes

  of different sizes to people and and I

  do agree with you that those papers that

  you keep from number filing those are

  quite legitimate to keep I do think that

  they are unique little pieces of art

  like I will never fault you for keeping

  those so you are in a bit of a different

  situation so I will give you a little

  bit of a longer lease than I normally

  would on this kind of thing because it

  is the nature of your work Brady that

  you are going to be attracting this kind

  of stuff into your house but I also

  think it's the nature of a Brady that he

  really likes keeping these things to I

  want to know how your objectivity video

  is doing from last time this is my my

  scandalous naughty yes video with the

  old-fashioned nudie pics the

  descriptions like that I really do want

  to file because this is sometimes

  sometimes when you record a podcast you

  know you talk about things and something

  gets stuck in your brain like I could

  not let that segment go last time like

  after we recorded it after added it I

  just kept thinking about it over and

  over again like this endless messy

  problem that YouTube has and the D

  monetization everything for some reason

  this one in particular really stuck with

  me and I couldn't get out of my head so

  I want to know what's the update has it

  been monetized has your whole channel

  been taken down I'll tell you what

  happened and it will involve a minor

  confession okay but I won't go into all

  the details people who've listened to

  the last episode will know what this

  video was about but involve these

  pictures that had been automatically

  flagged as unsuitable I pressed the

  button for a so-called manual review and

  it was very quickly rejected a second

  time and I was told I'd failed to the

  manual review process

  and I wrote an email I'm in the lucky

  position to have like you know a partner

  manager and people at YouTube that I can

  write to who are humans so I wrote an

  email sort of saying this is not good

  and what happened was actually I I

  thought it had sent but I'd actually

  hadn't sent it they for two or three

  days I'd heard nothing back and I was

  like aha they've gone to ground the cows

  today they're too scared to deal with me

  and you know I'd said we're not happy

  and if you want to know what I think

  about it I sent them the link to the

  hello Internet section so this is what

  we think about it and I was polite

  uh-huh I was polite but I was like you

  know I'd made my case strongly and they

  hadn't replied so I was like cowards

  ahead and sent so I win so it wasn't in

  my sent items and then I found it in my

  drafts so I sent it there with your tail

  between your legs yeah well luckily I

  hadn't told anyone I thought that would

  get would say I was like I'd gotten away

  with it no so I rants from you know

  Twitter rant and that emo was replied to

  quite quickly and I was told like in

  less than 24 hours I was told this is a

  mistake and we've reinstated it and it

  is now in the on the normal monetization

  status so that video is now normal it's

  gone from the yellow tick of naughtiness

  to the green tick of happiness whatever

  you want to call it so it was reinstated

  and like okay hey I'm lucky I have

  someone who I can appeal to you I was a

  human and B the fact I even had to do

  that still says to me the system is

  broken so while I'm grateful for a

  reasonably quick reply I'm still upset

  at the way the systems works and I think

  it's broken

  and I'm still unhappy with the whole

  experience yeah like a new no-win

  situation and again the golden 24 hours

  when a video gets the most views I mean

  this isn't like a massively watched

  video but if it was if it was a CGP grey

  video that 24 hours where I was waiting

  for them to say Mia culpa we've

  reinstated it you'd be gone that's when

  all your views have happened anyway oh

  yeah that's the main value of almost all

  the videos and I have not recently but I

  have in the past had that happen


  a video isn't monetized when it goes up

  and you know it's like okay well looks

  like clock is ticking YouTube I figure

  now your video is another data point on

  the gigantic pile of machine learning

  for whatever algorithms they're using to

  try to determine what is or is not

  appropriate for for future videos but I

  feel like this should be a like a super

  data point for the algorithms like this

  one you should never miss categorize

  like no matter what crazy algorithms you

  come up with like this one should always

  be in the clear as like a a very obvious

  reference point for the algorithms to

  chew on but what's the algorithm

  learning that that if a while' is very

  small and black and white it's okay well

  you know with all this stuff I think the

  idea that's impossible to convey is that

  you can't describe to people what the

  algorithm is learning you can just in

  the database assign an extremely

  negative score for mischaracterizing

  this video right and then you're just

  like okay well you build up a data set

  and you're just training the algorithms

  against it and I think this is like a

  fundamental frustration of the modern

  world is that it is very difficult

  people want Y answers to these questions

  like why did this algorithm do this like

  why when I go on Facebook does it show

  me that and I just am not convinced that

  there are Y answers to this question

  like everything I know about machine

  learning just says like there is no y

  answer all you have is a data set and

  then you have an algorithm that really

  nobody understands and you know it's

  like oh you can point over here to some

  linear algebra but it doesn't change the

  fact that ultimately it's like a bunch

  of calculations that nobody understands

  so I agree with you that like the system

  is in in quotes broken but I just don't

  think that there's ever going to be like

  a winning solution to YouTube for this

  one so yeah this is just the fun future

  of things it's got to be a smiled

  algorithm there doesn't it because if I

  took a a nudie pic of my mate bill

  mm-hmm and like put a sepia tone over

  mm-hmm and that loaded it to youtube

  they would be right to block it because

  there's no historical or scientific

  significance to her and it's just me

  being a mischief-maker with nudity and


  what they should love that so smart

  algorithm because it's got it have to

  take into context the whole video around

  it and what was being said and done and

  you know again I think that even the

  idea of like a smart algorithm is like a

  strange kind of meaningless idea that we

  try to apply to things if you dig into

  machine learning like there's a thing

  called neural networks and I'm often

  really shocked by how simple a neural

  network can be before it starts

  correctly say classifying images like

  you know what is this image or what is

  that image it's weird how they can be

  quite simple and still work but it's

  again like you look at it and you're

  like I don't really know what it's doing

  I can follow each of these individual

  calculations that it does but how at the

  end it lights up the light that says you

  know this is a horse right or this is a

  mountain like you just can't really know

  how it does that stuff and what you

  highlighted there is exactly the problem

  that whatever it's doing it's really

  only just learning from the database

  that it has seen and so you will get

  really weird results when you show it

  stuff that is just totally unfamiliar

  with there's like a sort of classic

  example of this but if you if you train

  like a neural network to recognize

  handwritten numbers you can train it it

  will recognize handwritten numbers with

  like 90% 95% accuracy but if you show it

  an image of just static

  it's surprising amount of times it'll go

  like oh that's the number 8 or that's

  the number 3 like it's like what on

  earth is it doing that it can both

  correctly categorize numbers but it

  doesn't have any concept that like a

  obviously meaningless image is not the

  number 3 it's a very very weird world

  when you dig into it grey I saw that you

  have been granted 280 characters on

  Twitter yes yes I have and a few days

  later I was also allowed into this

  exclusive club though what's been your

  reflection on the the new Twitter the

  new expanded 2x double size twice as

  good Twitter experience are you enjoying

  the power double the size half is good I

  totally agree for anybody who follows me

  on Twitter I'm very sorry but I did go

  anyone who still follows you

  I'd be really curious to see like

  someone must be able to do this but like

  I have a suspicion that my Twitter usage

  is very spiky my perception of myself is

  that I go for long periods of time where

  I don't tweet very much at all and then

  it's like an afternoon where I tweet a

  whole lot and when I discovered that I

  had 280 characters that was an afternoon

  of a lot of tweeting you went on a

  Twitter binge and I was really 100%

  abusing my power and also upset at the

  number of people that seemed to be

  getting the increased tweets right after

  me that's like ah no like I need this to

  be exclusive like if everybody has it

  it's no good so I did have a day where I

  was going a little bit nuts and

  intentionally nuts in the most annoying

  way possible but since that has now calm

  down and I've been on Twitter a bunch

  I will rien ffice eyes my opinion that I

  think it is worse even more strongly now

  than before because the thing that I

  have found really interesting from a

  subjective experience is when I go to

  tweet 280 characters is almost always

  longer than whatever thought is in my

  head and I have noticed that I

  essentially never really need to amend

  the tweets that I'm sending out there

  into the world mm-hmm

  and it's like this 100% has the effect

  of making my tweets sloppier like and

  less well thought out like without a

  doubt because you're not going through a

  draft price yes without a doubt this is

  what does it whereas before I would

  almost always blow past the 140 limit

  and then have to think for a second Oh

  what did I actually want to say let me

  say it in a different way so I like I

  feel much much more strongly about it

  that even if people aren't doing what I

  was doing on the first day and being

  intentionally annoying by having

  unnecessarily long tweets I think even

  tweets 50% longer are worse and my

  experience of composing tweets is worse

  and I also find that the lengths it

  really changes the experience of reading

  Twitter there's something about these

  tweets that are like just a little too

  long yes Kim it's gone

  the wall of texture zone you know what

  it really has it really has that's

  interesting it's like that email that

  you won't read look you know you open a

  day by then if it's to you three

  sentences your reader and if it's ten

  you won't this is like scaled-down what

  happens on Twitter

  I'll read the short waits and I'll skip

  the long tweets though I'm not reading

  that and there's more and more that I'm

  not right here I've been wondering I'm

  most of the time I'm using Twitter

  through a Twitter client am either using

  Twitter if ik or tweet bot or two that I

  really like and those applications often

  have custom filters that regular Twitter

  does not I'm hoping that one of them

  will actually implement a like hide all

  tweets above this length filter hmm

  let's be honest here if you write out a

  280 word tweet I'm not reading it so why

  don't we just hide it and then I can

  have my old Twitter back like I would

  love to be able to have that feature

  what's like I'll give people a little

  leeway but anything above like 160 I'm

  just going to filter out on on Mayan

  like I just don't even want to see it

  because this is one of those things

  where it's so weird it's like is reading

  three sentences an incredible burden

  that reading one or two is not not

  really but it doesn't change the fact

  that I just don't and it does matter

  when you're looking at the volume of

  yeah tweets that Twitter has like a I it

  out I feel like I try to not follow a

  whole lot of people and I'm pretty

  aggressive now with filters in a way

  that I didn't used to be before but even

  still I feel like Twitter is a pretty

  active thing and it does matter a whole

  lot for things to be shorter than other

  mediums and especially because again

  it's the it's like the live aspect of it

  like Twitter is what's happening right

  now like what people are saying so

  you're saying you agree with the reading

  experience but have you found the same

  thing with the composing experience like

  are you aware of it different when you

  write tweets I have started writing a

  few longer ones occasionally but

  generally I've been keeping my tweets

  quite short still a funny thing happened

  actually when I was still on 140 mm-hmm

  I wanted to write this funny tweet which

  the joke was gonna be it's not very

  original joke but I thought it was at

  the time I was writing something along

  the lines of I can't wait to have 280

  characters because then I can write

  tweets to say important things like and

  it was going to be like my tweet

  got cut off before I got to say the

  important bring it right that was gonna

  be the joke that I couldn't quite fit in

  the joke I was trying to form you like

  that tweak to 140 characters and I

  couldn't get to 140 right I've become so

  used to writing concise things I was

  having to pad out the tweet to make my

  joke get to 140 characters so that it

  would run out of carriers so I think

  I've been quite well trained to keep it

  short and now that I've moved to 80 and

  most of the time my tweets have been

  staying short because of that training

  I guess my the fear is and what will

  happen is that training will wear off

  I'll get sloppy I'll write longer worst

  tweets and I'll become like everyone

  else but you're like a dog with the

  electric fence and they learn where the

  boundary is and they don't go near the

  boundary and now the boundary has been

  removed eventually you're gonna start

  pushing that edge like a little bit

  further a little bit further yeah and

  you don't have that that feedback of

  like an angry negative read three on the

  bottom they're telling you that your

  tweets too long

  I mean clearly Twitter did this because

  they want to get more users to the

  platform and obviously that experience

  that you described of writing a tweet

  and then being in the red and going damn

  it I've got to rewrite it now and write

  another draft to get it down totally

  frustrating for new users without a

  doubt yeah exactly so while you're sort

  of discipline brain saw this as a

  blessing and a chance to refine your

  thoughts other people were saying to

  hell with this I'm not using Twitter and

  so Twitter thinks it's gonna help them

  but I don't think it is yeah well this

  is always a conflict particularly in the

  software world of how easy is a thing

  for new users versus what is the

  experience for longtime users and/or

  professional users and you know like we

  were complaining last time I really

  think that Twitter's selling feature is

  the same thing that makes it kind of a

  pain in the butt for new users to get on

  board and trying to explain why being

  limited in what you can post is a good

  thing is not a thing that someone's

  signing up to a social media account

  wants to hear that's not what they want

  I bet it will on board more people and

  you know maybe it'll make Twitter more

  popular and maybe it'll prove for the

  company to be a great decision but I

  think in the process of doing that it's

  losing what I like about Twitter

  and the very reason why Twitter is for

  me the only social network that I use in

  any serious amount so I think it's a

  shame I have this great power and I

  don't want it hello Internet

  you know all things come to an end a

  beautiful sunset it has an end your time

  with loved ones it has an end your whole

  life has an end probably nothing lasts

  forever there are many ways that we try

  to avoid this and one of which is by

  digitizing everything digital data we

  tell ourselves it will last forever but

  guess what your files sitting on that

  hard drive on your computer their time

  in this world comes to an end that hard

  drive will eventually fail a gamma-ray

  born in the heart of a star flying

  across the universe will hit your hard

  drive at just the right angle and

  destroy those files there's nothing you

  can do about it except of course to

  install Backblaze Backblaze is the

  unlimited cloud backup for Macs and PCs

  for just $5 a month for that all of the

  documents music photos videos drawings

  projects everything in your digital life

  you're storing on your computer won't

  just live in one place it will be safe

  and preserved on back Blaze's servers so

  that when the inevitable happens you

  don't just have to gaze off into the

  distance and mourn the loss of your data

  no you can bring it back from the cloud

  but listen this only works if you sign

  up for Backblaze before that happens

  and because Backblaze keeps buying ads

  on the show I know that there are

  constantly new listeners who are finally

  hearing the good word about Backblaze

  and installing it on their computers

  perhaps today that's you listening to me

  right now what you're going to do is if

  you don't have Backblaze on your

  computer you're going to go to Backblaze


  /hello internet and sign up today to get

  your digital data protected to grant it

  the immortality that it deserves back

  please calm /hello internet go there

  today touching the outside of the plane

  before you get on as a superstition but

  it turns out both you and I had you'd

  kind of kick the habit but I still do i

  force myself out of it yeah I didn't

  want to get that way I was mildly

  surprised by how many other people do it

  it wasn't like super common it didn't

  feel like every person in their dog was

  saying yeah yeah of course everyone does

  that but a lot of people said I do it -


  which was interesting it's always

  interesting to see this I saw a few

  examples of famous people who were doing

  they're touching the outside of the

  plane thing it's just interesting to see

  what people are able to dig up when you

  mention topics like this I have mildly

  enjoyed getting photographs from people

  doing it as they get on the plane and

  Tim's saying Here I am doing it I

  wouldn't want it to become too much of a

  thing but I don't mind at the moment I

  was also getting photos from people who

  were showing me them scoping out the

  passengers who were going to get on the

  plane doing a little profiling for

  anybody who looks like they might have

  some coins in their hand so I enjoyed

  that as well it did get me wondering

  about and someone wrote something that

  helped me understand it about where this

  superstition could possibly come from

  why would it start and someone wrote

  something and I can't remember who wrote

  it or where or anything like that but

  I'll encapsulate it and they were

  basically saying they've always touched

  the outside of the plane because

  touching the outside of a plane felt

  like a special treat to them because

  they're interested in like the material

  science aspect on what the plane was

  made of in the metal and also thinking

  about the extreme environment that was

  going to be blasting past that part of

  the plane you know in just half an

  hour's time

  so getting to touch it felt like a

  special treat and I think maybe that's

  where it comes from from me too it was

  like something you would never normally

  get to touch so when I was first started

  flying I would touch the outside of a

  plane because gosh when am I going to

  get another chance to do this and then

  once you start doing it and you don't

  die in a plane crash you think well

  maybe I should do it again and it sort

  of it then becomes the tradition and the

  superstition but the reason you first

  start doing it is

  because it's just a chance to touch

  something that in normal life you would

  never get to touch but it's kind of cool

  and fascinating yeah I think that sounds

  right that sounds like how it would

  start and then you do it a couple of

  times and then as brains go this is a

  like you start reinforcing a pattern and

  a habit that you don't intend to there

  is something that's like it's not quite

  like it but it's a bit like passing

  through an airlock that little moment

  when you're stepping on to the plane and

  you know you have the the jetway has

  come out and you they have like the

  wrapping that's like attached to the the

  airplane itself it's like an interesting

  transition moment in life going from one

  thing to another I can see why that

  would start to happen and the other

  thing is you know just you tap it and

  it's like whoo it feels very solid and

  then you have to remind yourself not to

  think about how thick that his airplane

  walls actually are because they're

  terrifyingly thin if you ever actually

  see the cross-sections of airplanes it's

  like it's not a whole lot of material

  between you and the outside world on

  those airplanes when you're actually

  tapping those walls so don't snap them

  too hard people nice and gentle with the

  outside of the plane so another thing

  that you discussed in the last episode

  when were on this topic was that you

  don't like sitting in seats where you

  have a good clear view of the engine

  because you think about all the things

  that could go wrong and sort of the

  fragility of the the situation you know

  that's not the kind of thinking I well

  my my previous sentence there's no

  indication that I tend to think towards

  about the fragility of all the objects

  and the complicatedness of all the

  interactive pieces and you know one

  knows how to build an airplane but

  somehow all these people together you

  see the little piece that makes it work

  yeah I don't think about that well since

  we recorded that I've been on a holiday

  and I went to my favorite place I went

  to the Maldives and it took three

  flights to get to the island and three

  flights back and I touched the outside

  of the plane each time but interestingly

  the final flight to get there is on a

  seaplane you learned at Marley Airport

  in the Maldives at the main airport and

  they then put you onto a little seaplane

  for a half hour flight to your Island

  and pretty much every seat on these

  little sea planes you get a really good

  view of the engine so I was put in my


  and I was right next to the engine and I

  was looking at all the bits and pieces

  and these sea planes are a bit they're a

  bit rough and ready and you can

  seriously rust and Naoki

  everywhere and stuff and you're in the

  water and I was thinking how great

  wouldn't like this and then just before

  we took off one of the crew of the plane

  on these sea planes has to walk around

  on I think it's called like the pontoon

  like the footbed that floats in the

  water that the plane lands on that makes

  it like a boat and he has to walk out

  onto that pontoon and like undo the

  ropes that are roping you to the dock so

  the plane can then push away and take

  off on the sea he has to hand spin up

  the propeller yes so anyway it was so

  interesting because what happened was he

  was he was undoing the ropes and he did

  that and he he threw the ropes aside and

  he was about to get back onto the plane

  and shut the door and just before he did

  I was watching all this there was this

  little pipe or outlet I'm not sure what

  it was it quite possibly was a sensor of

  some kind or it was some kind of minor

  exhaust port or something I don't know

  what it was but it was a little pipe

  that I was looking at under the engine

  near the strut and just before he got in

  the plane he pulled a piece of tissue

  out of his pocket and stuffed it into

  this hole and prodded it in with his

  finger two blocks I think with a piece

  of tissue with a piece of dirty tissue

  paper he put it in the hole plug to the

  hole with tissue paper then got in the

  plane and we took off and flew into the

  sky I'm like what the hell it's like The

  Rocketeer where he's singing a stick of

  gum and he's just putting it over a hole

  in the fuel sack

  no no did you ask what it was or I

  didn't ask I took a photo of the

  component so we will put in the

  shownotes a photograph and I will show

  people what this component is and

  whoever is an expert on see planes and

  aviation can tell us what this thing is

  and why he may have been stuffing a

  piece of tissue into it mere moments

  before takeoff but I thought this would

  freak ray it was like two feet from my

  face I was watching this happen

  I didn't say a word though I just said

  okay he knows what he's doing I just

  want to get him a holiday I do love

  seeing plain stone flying over the

  Modena seaplanes top stuff

  I'm sure the maldis are great I bet you

  feel like Indiana Jones when you're

  taking off in a seaplane there's a big

  stake in the plane

  I can see the appeal of all of that you

  know I'm glad you go to the Maldives I'm

  very glad that you like it but even if

  it was three regular airplanes I feel

  like there's nowhere in the world I'm

  gonna go if I have to take three flights

  to get there totally worth it totally

  worth it even for you great you say that

  but I feel like one transfer one

  transfer or I'm not going you can get to

  mildly direct if you want you just don't

  get to fly in as nice planes if you do

  it direct you're better off doing a

  stopover so you can get the nicer planes

  and the NASA flight oh so you're doing a

  calculation between a direct flight

  that's uncomfortable and three flights

  that are more comfortable and one that's

  kept in the air by it tissue in a plank

  you have to get the C plane no matter

  what there's no choice on that yeah

  there's a topic I've had in the notes

  for us to talk about for a while and I'm

  not gonna do it now but this does touch

  upon it a little bit so I may go off a

  bit if you don't rein me in because

  we're gonna talk about space and I don't

  want to upset space people but also

  gonna talk about Halloween okay because

  you like Halloween they do everyone like

  Halloween I'm alright with them but

  anyway this Halloween just gone the

  astronauts on the International Space

  Station decided to get into the

  Halloween spirit hmm and if you click on

  the link in the notes there you can see

  how they did this and I want to see what

  you think about it I'm thinking they

  don't have a lot of materials up there

  on the International Space Station to

  make costumes out of okay I've got a

  picture here from the International

  Space Station yeah here's the thing

  under normal circumstances I would say

  these costumes are pretty weak yeah

  they're basically just t-shirts that

  they're wearing yeah there's only two

  guys who are even really costumed in any

  sense there's a Wolverine and there's a

  spider-man spider-man good choice for

  the International Space Station I think

  but yeah so under normal circumstances I

  would say weak but the fact that it's

  the space station I'm still gonna take

  it I understand the constraints that

  they're working on you disapprove Brady

  I feel like here you wanted to rain on

  this parade in no way is it acceptable

  to me that astronauts in space in space

  flying in space astronauts the coolest

  people in the world doing the coolest

  thing in the world should be dressing up

  in monkey ears minion t-shirts and

  spider-man suits in a desperate

  desperate hope of getting my picture

  shared on Twitter or getting a bit of

  viral traction or to reach out to the

  youth of today what a desperate rubbing

  cheap poor thing that astronauts in

  space have to dress up as spider-man to

  get publicity is it not enough that

  they're circling the Earth at thousands

  of miles per hour in like weightlessness

  and they've gone up in rockets do they

  really have to dress up as a minion okay

  this is like embarrassing

  it's just cheapening what it is to be an

  astronaut and space travel this is like

  Oh can't believe it

  I'd see what's going on here you feel

  like this is diminishing the office of

  the astronauts II like that it is this

  is the legacy of John Glenn and Neil

  Armstrong and all these great people

  that have done amazing things and now

  we're dressing up a Spider Man ah I

  pretend superhero face are real

  superheroes well I mean I think of the

  word superhero means something you can't

  say that they're real superheroes like

  they're real astronauts

  but if the word superhero means

  something astronauts are not superheroes

  that doesn't make any sense I mean the

  reason this has been on my to-do list

  for a while as when the British

  astronaut Tim Peake and don't get me

  wrong I like Tim Peake right and this is

  not Tim Peake Sparkman

  I think I've even met the guy okay he's

  a British astronaut and he was in space

  quite recently

  you know and I've met him and I like him

  and he agreed to do an interview for me

  so I think he's ace so this is not this

  is not me getting stuck into Tim Peake

  Tim Peake just does what he has to do

  but when he was in space for his six

  months obviously the British government

  the British in particular at but the

  European Space Agency in general

  obviously wanted to milk every last bit

  of public

  the out of the Rose it was their guy up

  there and some of the things they made

  him do like we're a pretend tux so that

  he could introduce a section at the

  BAFTA Awards or do some little gimmick

  to do a rugby game and like basically

  what they do with these astronauts now

  as they say okay for the six months

  you're in space what things are

  happening like what events are happening

  like Halloween or things like that that

  we can somehow leverage to try and get

  some publicity and get people to tweet

  about us and use photos how sad is it

  that they've gotten to the point where

  they like just desperately trying to

  find ways to get into my Twitter stream

  ah you're right you summed it up best it

  diminishes the office I don't know I was

  no no I know I know you're putting your

  doing I don't know if that's your

  position is that not your position do

  you think it's nice to see astronauts

  you think it's good to see their they've

  got the common touch and they're in

  touch with their colleagues here on

  earth and they're still average Joe you

  think this is a nice thing do you're

  pleased gee Brady I can't tell from here

  you want me to go I want the truth

  there's many things here not it reckon

  there's one thing don't dress up the

  Spider Man when you're in space just do

  space stuff you're cool enough sometimes

  Brady your frustration and anger really

  warms my heart and this is what's going

  on the argument from NASA is gonna be

  you know if we're gonna have all this

  public money we have to do things for

  the public but what do you think's gonna

  happen do you think they're gonna be

  sitting in Congress one day saying

  should we give 10 billion dollars to

  NASA so they can go to Mars well I was

  gonna say no but because that guy

  dressed up as spider-man here's your

  money like they're not doing themselves

  any favors they're not gonna help

  themself get more funding doing this I

  think they're hurting their chances in

  the future because they're just going to

  be taken less seriously next time they

  ask for 10 billion dollars to cure

  cancer with experiments in space

  someone's just gonna wheel out a picture

  of him dressed as spider-man and saying

  are we sending you up there for a jolly

  so you can pretend to shoot webs out of

  your wrists get the spider-man so often

  do something makes my blood boil what am

  I missing Green hokey the opposite case


  please make the opposite case and I will

  apologize okay well I can kind of make

  the opposite case I'm gonna try to do

  with you do which is be devil's advocate

  I cared for a moment here which I might

  be terrible laughs but okay so if I'm

  trying to make the devil's advocate case

  for this I would say that if I think

  about my Twitter stream when was the

  last time I saw an astronaut in it never

  I can't think of the last time that I

  saw anything about like a NASA style

  what's an astronaut doing in outer space

  thing right and SpaceX is the exception

  to that like I see SpaceX stuff that

  people send me but I can't think of

  anything as like International Space

  Station stuff mm-hmm so I guess if if I

  am NASA and I have decided that this is

  an important thing is public awareness

  of the International Space Station to

  remind people that they're even in space

  this is kind of the thing is this is

  actually kind of a perfectly timed

  conversation because we've been talking

  about SpaceX recently and talking about

  how it's not really a thing I follow but

  I'm just sort of vaguely aware of what

  they're up to because it's impossible

  not to be aware even if you're not

  intentionally following it but as like

  man I don't have any idea what they're

  doing up in that International Space

  Station I guess they're dressing up a

  spider-man I don't know it's a the one

  time you do finally find out what

  they're doing they're clowning around

  like a bunch of idiots

  it's not to say that I assume that

  they're doing nothing right that's not

  what I'm saying it's but it's more just

  like what is my level of awareness of

  what's occurring on the International

  Space Station like it is essentially

  zero and I feel like I'm the kind of

  person that you would expect to know

  more about this and I know that I am

  weird a little bit in the way that I

  deal with the news but I think that I

  should know more than like average

  random person on the street about what's

  going on with the International Space

  Station I can't name a single thing you

  know maybe NASA has some internal data

  that just shows this that like hey when

  we do men on the street survey questions

  like nobody even knows that the

  International Space Station is a thing

  that exists and they want to be able to

  move those numbers so how are they going

  to move those numbers that's like well

  in this modern world where I think we'd

  really do live in an attention economy

  like you have to strategize about how to

  get attention if that's your goal and

  whatever work they're doing in the

  International Space Station we know does

  not naturally get the attention of

  people so like you have to do something

  else that that would be my devil's

  advocate case what like what do you

  think of that Brady I think well I said

  I think if the one time people know

  there in space is seeing them dressed up

  like that it's doing them an absolute

  disservice makes them look like a bunch

  of clowns and like if that's the only

  time people hear about them that's even

  worse fair enough for me who does see a

  lot of astronaut stuff in my Twitter

  stream yeah at least I can say well okay

  they're having a fun day but if the

  people they're trying to reach other

  people that don't know what they're

  doing okay you made your case do you

  believe your case yeah no I don't

  believe my case at all but the thing was

  great when you first looked at that and

  you didn't know how I felt about it your

  initial reaction wasn't oh my god how

  embarrassed that the minute I saw that I

  was my heart sank and like I thought

  this is ridiculous but that wasn't your

  reaction your reaction was quite you

  were commenting on what you thought of

  the costumes and this was okay and this

  wasn't okay so that wasn't your sort of

  gut reaction to it yeah but it's also

  like we're having a conversation about

  Halloween so I'm just like okay we're

  having a costume contest right now this

  is the question and you're having a

  costume contest where every gram is

  incredibly expensive to get there right

  so what like what's gonna happen on

  International Space Station I'm coming

  at this from a very different

  perspective what I was going to say

  though is I kind of agree with you

  although for different reasons even if

  you listen to my devil's argument case I

  think the thing that's happening here

  that sort of wrong is companies and

  organizations really focusing on public

  awareness of what they do I have always

  found that kind of a weird concept like

  I get why it happens and I think that

  there's something about the attention

  economy and the social media world in

  which we live that aggravates this


  you can put these really clear numbers

  on how many times is Facebook posting

  from NASA liked or how many times their

  tweets retweeted and you know what they

  would have looked at the stats for this

  for their dressing up as a minion and

  spider-man and saw this off the sky Oh

  number of retweets and likes and said

  mission accomplished and what I say is

  every single one of those retweets is

  another nail in my heart and it should

  be another nail in there heart tour no

  another person this seamless humiliating

  hitting we've done well I'm not

  literally going to agree that it's

  humiliating but I do think that it's

  it's a case where the numbers don't

  necessarily tell you something sometimes

  I'm in conversations were I'm talking to

  people who are let's say I'm talking to

  people who are trying to become

  professionals at either YouTube or

  podcasts or or like the online world in

  some sense and there's a thing that I

  often say to those people which I just

  realized applies in this in this

  situation which is social media is not

  your job like you're not getting paid to

  tweet I go on Twitter because I like it

  but it is also a thing that I do spend a

  lot of time reminding myself when I'm

  there like this isn't actually my job

  right but it has a lot of the kind of

  benefits of having a job or it's like oh

  you tweet and you get instant reactions

  from an audience and you can see like oh

  like this joke landed really well or you

  know people really like this thing it

  got a whole bunch of retweets but like

  that's not what my job is my job is

  making videos or podcasts like that's

  the actual job the social media is just

  a thing on top of it but it's really

  easy to get turned around on that I feel

  like it's the same thing with a lot of

  companies that seem weirdly obsessed or

  just weirdly interested in what their

  social media presence is and if I was

  sitting down with like the board of NASA

  I'd want to have a real conversation

  about like okay what do you think this

  social media presence gets you because

  it's super easy to measure which makes

  it very easy to turn into somebody's job

  which makes it very easy to have

  actionable items around but what are you

  getting out

  it I think at best it's just a waste of

  time to me this is like a neutral thing

  it doesn't count but I think you have

  made a pretty strong point that it's not

  even just a negative that maybe it's

  worse than nothing

  that the only way that NASA can get a

  million retweets is by doing a thing

  that diminishes NASA just quickly coming

  back to something you said greater about

  social media not being your job do you

  ever tell yourself that having a strong

  social media presence though I'm being

  like an interesting person who are

  people look forward to tweets from

  doesn't help your job though in some way

  like because then when you do like say

  I've got a new video or you want to

  engage with that audience you've got

  them on your side do you not see it as

  part of your job to cultivate that part

  of your audience because it feeds into

  your main job here's the way I look at

  it there's a benefit to having a Twitter

  audience the benefit it's not zero but

  it's very close to zero yeah

  there's no video that I'm going to make

  or there's no podcast episode that I'm

  going to put out where if I lean on it

  really hard on Twitter it's going to

  make any kind of measurable difference

  in how that actually does and when I

  look at you know the podcast back end or

  the YouTube back end I do try to tell

  people this but it's like I'm fortunate

  enough that I do pretty well on on

  Reddit when I post videos but people

  think that like Reddit driving an

  enormous amount of traffic to the video

  sounds like it really isn't and like

  read its presence is way bigger than my

  Twitter presence so like when I post a

  tweet to a video it's really just for

  like oh there's people who are here

  right now who might want to see it and

  it's just convenient for them to click

  the link but like I could stop linking

  to my own stuff on Twitter and I don't

  think it would make any difference to

  the success or failure of my various

  projects I mean oh I haven't got loads

  of Twitter followers but I occasionally

  will have friends who have like you know

  no presence on social media and they'll

  say to me Oh Brody can you tweet this

  thing for me because if you do it will

  help and I always say to them seriously

  you might get five people looking at it

  if I tweet it yeah people dramatically

  overestimate what the

  presence is like I'm sure a lot of

  people see it but people don't like if

  you ask people on Twitter to do

  something they generally won't do it

  unless you're asking to do something

  they already want to do yeah but even

  then it's just such a smaller space and

  I think you and I are in a position

  where we're much more likely to be able

  to encourage engagement because we're

  individual people right like the people

  following us on Twitter know that we are

  individuals tweeting from our individual

  accounts so I think we are in the best

  possible situation and that's one of the

  reasons why I like the companies and

  social media

  I just find very strange because I feel

  like I think there's a huge amount of

  this that is being done because people

  think that it needs to be done but I

  just always want to know like what is

  the outcome from this like what do you

  think you're really getting out of it

  and I just don't think it's very much oh

  yeah that was the thing that I was gonna

  say before is when you asked like is

  there a benefit I think the the way that

  I like to think about it is if I didn't

  enjoy being on Twitter would I go on

  Twitter to promote my stuff for the

  benefits like I would not right there's

  no way I would do it right whereas

  there's plenty of stuff about the work

  of producing podcasts and videos that is

  not enjoyable work but I do it because

  the benefit is so clear right so obvious

  so it's like Twitter just doesn't make

  any sense in like a business context so

  i's words grey wise words i think people

  that cannot place too much importance on

  the power of social media in particular

  twitter to drive other things yeah i

  don't think that it's that they are

  these great engines that can drive

  traffic and push people around the way

  that we think they are people are

  they're on Facebook whether they're on

  Twitter and that's where they are you

  can't use it to like leverage other

  things in the way that people think to

  sell things or to promote things and is

  the immediacy and the measurable nosov

  it that I think is it's like a siren

  call to people where they can put effort

  into it it sounds like what we were

  describing that NASA does is that kind

  of thing like oh what what kind of

  events are there that we can tie in to

  NASA's mission so that we can get more

  hearts on

  - Graham yeah I don't think that's your

  mission guys I don't know what your

  mission is I don't think that's it yeah

  saying I have kind of fired my gun at

  this NASA publicity thing that's been on

  my mind let me get the last one out of

  something else has been on my mind yeah

  in 2015 wait look getting in the way

  back yeah an American astronaut corps

  Scott Kelly and a cosmonaut called

  Mikhail Kornienko did this trip to the

  space station NASA went absolutely crazy

  promoting it because it was longer than

  the normal mission I think they normally

  go up for like six months or something

  but this was the one-year mission the

  year in space and you couldn't look at

  anything anywhere on NASA without having

  Scott Kelly's year in space shoved down

  your throat year in space he's spending

  a year in space he's gonna do all these

  things during his year in space the

  mission patch had a special year-long

  mission patch with a big number one in

  it for one year in space it says year in

  space in English and Russian like us are

  massive they were so pleased with it I

  got sick of hearing about it

  I love our non-overlapping world like

  this is the first time I've ever heard

  of this thing yeah anyone who knows

  anything about NASA will be very

  familiar with Scott Kelly's year in

  space by the way 342 days he was in

  space that's not a year that doesn't

  count it wasn't even a year in space

  how's that for false advertising that's

  terrible now I'm just learning that

  NASA's a bunch of liars here in space if

  they think this is a really good gimmick

  here in space and they want to push it

  hard okay but at least leave the guy up

  there for a year actually I was just

  looking at a Wikipedia link there is an

  ISS year-long mission link but I was

  looking at Scott Kelly's page our

  Wikipedia page and I don't know if this

  is serious oh it's excellent Wikipedia

  mischief-making there's no

  mischief-making at Wikipedia someone

  here refers to it the goal of their

  year-long 11-month expedition aboard

  it's got a year-long expedition and some

  was put in brackets 11 months early 11

  month year in space I don't know if this

  mischief-making because if it's true

  it's just it's like Wikipedia snide

  nests there are sometimes articles you

  find where there's like there's a kind

  of I don't know almost like a style

  guide for Wikipedia humor and that feels

  like a great template for like the

  Wikipedia humor style guide it's like

  it's true but you know do we need to put

  it right here in the title maybe not but

  it's a great place for it to go I was

  gonna say that the most generous I would

  be with a year-long mission would be to

  include the to transit days so the day

  that you fly up and the day that you

  come back down because when I travel I

  don't include transit days in what and

  I'm like oh how long were you on

  vacation I was on vacation for five days

  but a five-day vacation requires seven

  days because you have to transit days

  and transit days don't count they just

  go into a void of nothingness as useless

  days I'm also not sure it takes that

  long to get from the launch pad into the

  station I don't think it takes a whole

  day I don't care if it's a 20-minute

  flight if I've just flying down to the

  continent that whole day is written off

  as a travel day it doesn't count

  so I had to at least get into the 360 s

  before I'd start saying okay maybe

  there's a day lost cuz you were going

  the wrong way around the earth and you

  crossed the date line and something and

  there was some I don't know I could

  accept some fudging around there I'm

  like you I could accept a few days sure

  but this was a full 23 days short of a


  I feel pretty harsh about this because

  my minimum threshold is he steps on the

  ship and you start a timer and when that

  timer is done it has to read 363 times

  24 hours right and then you get two days

  as transit days and I'll count those

  because I'm feeling generous that would

  be a year-long mission I think we

  haven't have a word with Nestor about

  what a year yes and the last people I

  thought would need that explained to

  them you see what a year is is see the

  earth right it's going around the Sun

  mm-hmm oh no but that won't help with

  our year-long mission patch I feel like

  that the longer you tell me about these


  the more I'm coming around to your side

  here at Brady that it really does sound

  like they're trying to come up with ways

  to promote stuff so people hear about it

  and then when I actually find out the

  details I think worse of them than if

  they had never done it in the first

  place I feel bad about it I mean you

  know how I feel about NASA and you know

  I love them you were like the number one

  space booster of anyone I know I mean it

  makes me sad that they're stooping to

  this it's disappointing it's


  buddy space bait SpaceX are terrible for

  it they'll even post videos of their own

  rockets blowing up if it gets clicks

  okay do you have a website and if not

  why not

  cuz I think almost everyone has a reason

  to have one whether it's a business some

  passion you have an online portfolio or

  CV a blog just a place to post things

  that you create or you want to share now

  you might think why don't need a website

  there's things like Facebook Twitter

  Linkedin snaps to Graham MySpace but

  these are all places where you're the

  slave to other people's algorithms other

  people's designs and the ever-changing

  fashions of social media a website is a

  place that's all yours it's a hub a

  place to show the world what you want to

  show them in a way you want to show it

  now maybe you think a website would be

  nice but it's hard to make or it's hard

  to make across all the different devices

  people have these days with their phones

  and PCs and tablets maybe you just don't

  know much about coding and computer e

  stuff and you think it's all too much so

  this is finally where I'm gonna mention

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  episode I have got a little bit of

  feedback from our school photo

  discussion and you know how sometimes

  you know you go off on a rant and then

  someone points out some really serious

  samba point and you think oh yeah I

  guess I'm bit of a douche no you think

  what a party pooper that's what I think

  yeah yeah yeah basically just a quickly

  very quickly recap we talked about how

  the way school photos are being done now

  is that students are being photographed

  individually or in small clusters and

  then they Photoshop them into these big

  weird montages that neither you or I

  approve life you didn't approve because

  you didn't like the look of them I

  didn't approve because I thought it took

  away this whole you know documenting a

  real moment in time sort of them so

  anyway we discussed it go back and

  listen to the previous episode if you

  were so inclined but I did get an email

  from a chap who works for a company in

  Australia and his job is putting these

  photos together

  he's like the Photoshop a guy like

  Mission Control that all these pictures

  get sent to and he'd listen to the

  section and he wanted to point out if he

  was a good guy he wasn't like being

  snarky or anything he just wanted to

  give us more information and he pointed

  out some of the pros and the cons of

  this process and some of the reasons

  that this is a good thing to do with

  things that

  had not occurred to me and I still don't

  particularly approve of the process but

  I thought it was

  I thought it was

  worth mentioning these things because

  they were good points and I didn't think

  of them before you go though I'm just

  gonna guess that all of these are really

  benefits for the school or for the

  administration this is we're gonna be my

  guess okay I don't know if that's how to

  read these or not maybe partly let me

  tell you some of the things he said some

  of these are ones that you like well I

  can't really argue with that but we'll

  put them out there anyway one is that

  and you will know this there are often

  students at school her in dangerous

  situations or predicted situations where

  their pictures can't be published here

  because of like you know parental things

  that might be going on and doing this

  process does provide a way to take

  pictures of all the students including

  the protected ones where they don't feel

  left out so it's not like okay it's

  school photo time but Jimmy you have to

  stand over there in the corner because

  you're in this like special case so it

  does remove that situation where one

  child is like feels a little bit

  ostracized because this child can still

  have their picture taken like everyone

  else so it becomes less of an obvious

  situation and I thought that's okay

  that's an interesting point yeah I guess

  I agree with that but I'm also gonna

  take the unpopular position that like

  not for me before these particular

  students but like being left out it's an

  important life lesson it's like it's an

  experience we all have to go through and

  of course the student in question is

  still going to be left out of the final

  photo so there is still this bridge to

  be crossed but it was a point I hadn't

  thought of I do wonder about that that

  there's a thing where it makes it easier

  on the day but it doesn't it make it

  weirder later

  it's like oh you've literally been

  photoshopped out of existence you don't

  exist I'm not a hundred percent sold on

  that but yeah I actually do feel that

  this lines up with my thought about it's

  for the administration because that is a

  super easy line for a school

  administration to take it's like oh hey

  yeah we're trying to protect the

  feelings of all of the children right so

  like boom great well basically the most

  of the things on this list are also

  going to fall into that sort of worthy

  category that could be used then because

  also pointed out is people with epilepsy

  who can't do with the flash can be

  stitched back in later not having to

  have a flesh I feel like any depositor I

  genuinely don't know I would be really

  curious is there anybody who's going to


  triggered into epilepsy by a single

  flash I've never heard of such a thing

  like an I know a sequence of flashes I

  don't know I'm just trying to imagine

  any kind of professional photography

  situation which I have been involved in

  and worked with the flashes are not that

  frequent like even in pretty high-end

  photography setups with like real

  lighting gear I don't know I would be

  very interested to know I would find

  that just surprising I would I would

  worry about is like a school photo shoot

  is that a thing that is this like an

  actual harm or is this just like a

  theoretical harm right which again is is

  like oh here we go with the safety boxes

  right where someone's making an argument

  for safety and you know one can say now

  it just bit always past yeah sometimes

  you get students who come from difficult

  backgrounds that was pointed out and may

  have sort of you know injuries or things

  about them that could be fixed in

  post-production to sort of lessen their

  embarrassment he also pointed out

  special needs classes where you have

  children who perhaps it's hard to get

  all of them to sit still perhaps in this

  in the same way for a prolonged period

  of time so doing them individually helps

  and the last one he pointed out which is

  a bit unsavory but interesting was you

  also can sometimes get a problem where

  if people are sitting if they're wearing

  like dresses and skirts and they're and

  they sit in an unfortunate or under than

  the angle you get this problem with high

  res photos now with unfortunate pictures

  suddenly gets circulated all around the

  school and can cause of a lot of

  embarrassment for a student who kind of

  just was unlucky in the angle that they

  happen to sit on and things like that

  and that problem can be removed as well

  so things were things that were pointed

  out and I thought they were all

  interesting points that I hadn't thought

  of yeah he also points out they some of

  the bad points and one is that really

  crappy photographers are getting made to

  look good by people doing his

  photoshopping work back in the studio

  which drives him absolutely crazy

  because he's getting all these terrible

  pictures of students and he's like

  making them look good and he also

  pointed out that for one job he did

  there was a principal at a school who

  didn't like doing the photos but then

  insisted on being photoshopped into the

  center of every single photo taken of

  every single class so the principal was

  at the center of every single class

  photo taken even though they didn't you

  might find entertained

  malaria's I'm still giving it a thumbs

  down like yes you can make a bunch of

  points it just has that same feeling in

  my mind like this safety arguments where

  it's like no one argues against safety

  everything becomes safer and it's very

  hard to argue about what has been lost

  there's something about that which is

  like that even mean who's like I'm not

  one for like tradition and like a big

  group events but there is something

  that's just different about getting

  everybody out in the same place to try

  to take a picture and it's like part of

  the fact that it's like a real pain in

  the butt and things always go wrong like

  that's part of the experience like

  that's that's part of what it is hey

  you're setting that maker I'm proud of

  you it's also an even bigger click when

  you say child-safe oh yeah oh my god

  yeah I'm sure I've mentioned it in

  passing before but I just you know I can

  never not mention it again but in my

  school's the forms for taking kids out

  for field days or trips were such an

  incredible joke with what they required

  for safety yeah you as the teacher need

  to think of everything that can possibly

  go wrong and how you will prevent it

  from going wrong thereby if anything you

  didn't think about happens it's your

  fault right we can blame you for not

  thinking about it ahead of time and so

  the end result was like well screw this

  I'm just never taking kids on field

  trips I was like sure they're safer like

  it's just worse like it's just like

  field trips are fun like when I did get

  roped into doing them like I was happy

  to do it but it's like I am never gonna

  organize one of these things because

  just like the structure of this safety

  nest makes it untenable and it's like

  it's there's no good it's no good to

  lose that stuff it's also become an

  absolute nightmare ever trying to film

  anything in schools like I've just put a

  blanket ban on that now sometimes my

  scientists I work with will contact me

  say Brady I've got a really good idea

  for a video we should do but why don't

  we like take it into a school with a

  bunch of students and show them you know

  this rocket listens learn and interact

  with the kids it will make a really nice

  fun video and it would and I just say no

  I'm not pointing my camera at any school

  kids even if you get like a thousand

  permission slips it just takes one mum

  or dad to say well I don't want my

  little Jimmy in the background there on

  YouTube and like go to the mattresses

  and then you're like all your work just

  goes down the tubes like it's just more

  trouble than it's worth I think people

  have become overly protective yeah I


  there's a weird situation where I know I

  know people who work in schools where

  the policy is about if they take the

  children outside all right so you know I

  think you're leading kids into a park or

  whatever or you're on a field trip that

  the teachers are supposed to prohibit

  anybody from taking pictures of the kids

  right now like this is an extra funny

  situation because in the UK generally

  most schools have uniforms here and so

  for tourists like seeing a bunch of

  English school kids in uniform like it's

  part of the London experience like

  you've come to another country and

  you're just taking pictures in the same

  way that I think if Westerners go to

  Japan oh it's look it's like Harry

  Potter I think I have never been more of

  a tourist attraction than one of my

  final years of teaching it was an

  anniversary of the school and we all got

  dressed up like even myself had to get

  dressed up in these like very formal

  academic robes sort of like the thing

  that you wore when you got your honorary

  Doctorate and the kids we were teaching

  had these formal versions of the uniform

  and they also all were wearing like the

  school emblems and flat like it was way

  over the top and then from there we

  walked across the gardens at Westminster

  Abbey has like a million photographs

  were taken because it couldn't not be

  just such a center of attention to any

  tourists like it just it was so striking

  I think it's just weird for schools to

  have policies that like we're taking the

  children out in public but nobody is

  allowed to photograph them and say well

  I think that's just unreasonable like

  it's I understand the intent behind it

  but it's just crazy I think I think it

  really is just too far well how could

  you stop people at Westminster Abbey was

  it your job to throw yourself in front

  of cameras if any if like a tourist

  tried to take a pic yeah so you know as

  always with these things I just ignored

  it like what am I getting like yeah sure

  I was the best meeting attendee ever

  because I would always just sit there

  and be like oh yeah what a great policy

  sure I'll be sure to do that and on the

  actual day like

  not doing I hope you crazy to be fair

  the people given the instructions were

  probably thinking the same they were

  like make sure you stop people taking

  pictures yes yeah exactly and it's like

  so we're all going along with this but

  it's it's crazy and what I think people

  don't appreciate with you know like your

  situation you talk about filming in a

  school it's like obviously yes it would

  make a way better video if you had like

  kids and and their reaction like that is

  a super fun video but even if in theory

  you went through the hassle of getting

  all the permission slips like those

  permission slips are not legally binding

  documents right any parent can just

  change their mind at the last minute and

  they will do it or like they'll change

  their mind after you put in all the work

  and then tell you to take something down

  so it's just like of course them telling

  you to take it down to also isn't

  legally binding but it can be more

  hassle than us it's not legally binding

  but you're in a situation where it's

  like well now we're in a very

  uncomfortable position aren't we right

  because they say safety yeah exactly

  it's just it's very very frustrating

  it's very frustrating oh I've been there

  I've been there great don't worry when

  you say kids in schools like I presume

  that you don't or do you mean university

  level as well like would you shoot a

  video no I'd be comfortable doing at a

  universe okay so it's just like

  secondary school level and below that's

  that's where you draw the line where the

  people are in an age where you know they

  can't give full permission for

  everything in their life a university

  shouldn't has a choice as to whether or

  not about such you know they're filmed

  and such things you know well no matter

  what we think of it I think for all the

  reasons we've mentioned before is the

  future of school photography look

  forward to it parents

  so Brady the composer of the hello

  internet anthem Helen Stewart

  the maestro I call him the maestro yes

  because he does lots of music yeah I

  just I just ring him up and I say my

  screw I need some music yeah no he's

  great he's done music for some of my

  videos as well and he's died of course

  our theme music jingle at the beginning

  which I really like and appreciate the

  little Easter Egg that's in there he

  recently sent us an email with a link to

  a little online video game that is right

  in the crosshairs of hello Internet


  now did you play this video game Brady I

  did I was just curious and I had a quick

  look and then it became like a kind of

  drug addiction problem that I had for

  three of what he ruined my life okay all

  right that's super interesting because

  that is my exact same experience with

  this I click the link and it was like oh

  goodbye two days right like you have

  just gone into the void

  you are totally useless and I got

  nothing done at all but as I was curious

  just to ask you about this because my

  impression is that you just don't really

  play video games yeah I mean I don't

  know I mean I know this is a game and

  it's a on a computer this is not what I

  would really consider a computer game in

  some ways you should probably explain

  the game and once you've explained the

  game I'll tell you how I played it and

  why it caused me some problems in funny

  way okay right yeah so this is partly

  why I was like I'm interested that you

  played it precisely because of the

  nature of this thing so yeah there's a

  genre of computer games that are what I

  think if is like barely games I've long

  used an example listeners may be aware

  of there's a game called democracy where

  you are directing the actions of a

  government but that game is basically

  just like a pretty spreadsheet is really

  all it is like it is as close as you can

  get to a spreadsheet and still call it a

  game and there are a lot of different

  things that fall into this interesting

  genre where it's almost like people are

  playing with the idea of what's the

  minimum thing that we can make into a

  game and so this thing that was sent to

  us which is called universal paper clips

  this to me also falls into the category

  of a thing that is barely a game so you

  can just load it up in your web browser

  now even seeing it on my screen right

  now I feel the need to warn listeners

  like listeners I'm gonna put it in the

  show notes but don't click unless you

  have like a like a weekend free be

  listening Friday on your way home from

  work but you know and then click if you

  have two full days to burn your way

  through this thing and my warning and

  I'll come to why I'm giving you this

  warning in a minute is don't do it on


  fine okay yes definitely I 100% back

  that don't do it on your front of my

  head and I got I got site date do it on

  a computer because I opened it

  originally on my iPad and it ended up in

  one of those little pseudo browser

  windows that's not really the actual

  Safari browser I was terrified yeah and

  I eventually got so terrified about

  closing it I had to say

  okay listen be a rational grown-up man

  and start again on a computer because

  there's like I like I had to look right

  into the eyes of loss aversion and be

  like I see you loss aversion I

  understand what you are and I'm going to

  walk away so an actual game you load up

  your browser preferably on a computer

  preferably when you have a big expanse

  of time ahead of you and it looks like a

  webpage from you know the very early

  days of the Internet there's no color

  it's so simple so simple it doesn't even

  look like bad retro just looks so

  minimalist that's an excellent point is

  not trying to be retro it's looking like

  hey this is when we could first make web

  pages there's just some text and just a

  couple of buttons and one of those

  buttons the one right at the top is

  called make paperclip and so you click

  that button and then there's a paperclip

  counter that goes up to one and you

  think oh ok and you wait a second and

  then you see that your inventory counter

  drops down to zero because somewhere

  someone bought that paperclip and now

  you have 25 cents in your bank account

  and so it begins

  Oh again I'm gonna click make paperclip

  again oh and now I have I've made two

  paper clips and ooh someone just bought

  my paperclip I have it right in front of

  move right now which is dangerous to do

  you from all recording so you have 50

  cents available and so you click click

  click click click and you think

  something's going to happen right like I

  wonder what's going to happen and you

  keep clicking and you keep making paper

  clips and eventually when you get 5

  dollars you can buy a little machine

  which is called an auto clipper which

  will start make

  paper clips for you and then like the

  mechanisms of the game start to unfurl

  themselves over time you can adjust the

  price you can raise the price of the

  paperclip you can decrease the price of

  the paper clips you can invest more into

  your marketing you can invest more into

  Auto clipping machines you can try to

  make like futures decisions about when

  you're going to buy wire at what price

  the wire is that right now it is all

  just presented in the form of counters

  on a web page and buttons to adjust

  those counters that's all it is

  very simple but I found it completely

  absorbing so what happened with you with

  this because again I'm just I'm

  fascinated because if I had to predict I

  would have guessed that this game game

  in quotes would have a near zero chance

  of holding your interest like I'm

  genuinely quite surprised that this got

  you Oh gray little you know me how

  little you know me you know I'm the guy

  who's obsessed with like statistics and

  numbers and I know you're obsessed with

  statistics and numbers but when we've

  talked about games the thing that you

  often mention hmm is the thing about

  like it not being real or it feeling

  like it's a waste of time and so that

  this is these are all just pretend

  statistics like there's nothing that's

  real here well the thing about this game

  is that I mean we're not gonna spoil the

  game other than to say it would be fair

  to say the game escalate yeah overtime

  but also it can be left alone mm-hmm so

  you can't have it running in the

  background a smart person would get up

  and walk away a crazy person would sit

  there watching the numbers killing up

  right that would be insanity yeah and

  that's what happened like I kept telling

  myself I'm just gonna make a little

  tweak here and leave it alone while I

  get on with my editing but obviously I

  didn't I just kept coming back to it

  time and time and time again and it

  caused real productivity problems but

  you know it's just a well-designed game

  it's just addictive there's always one

  more little thing that's just a few more

  steps away that's gonna unlock a whole

  new thing for you oh if I could just get

  another you know a few more dollars here

  if I just make ten more of these and get

  four more of these

  as I can get one of these to do that

  which you have to be there to then click

  on so there's always one more thing to

  keep you there to click on but I opened

  it on my phone right and you know

  because I didn't know how long this is

  gonna take I thought this would be like

  you know an hour or so

  there's also games that are almost like

  arthouse games where they're just little

  demos to like explain an idea about a

  thing there's one I can't remember what

  it's called off the top of my head but

  I'll find it for the shownotes

  there's a game which is just about it's

  like you're deciding what to show people

  on the TV news that is also like barely

  a game but it's also like a 20-minute

  experience because it's almost like a

  piece of art yeah when I saw this I

  think maybe that is partly what dragged

  me in as well is because I was thinking

  oh this is probably a short little art

  experience that just wants to tell me

  something right it's like nope your life

  and the thing about the game that I

  think is really commendable is how much

  it holds back and how long it hides its

  debts for most modern video games we

  have an awesome title sequence and

  marketing and blow your way right from

  the start you think oh I have to play

  this but this game just keeps giving and

  giving very very gradually mmm if you

  think about what it was like towards the

  end well you could never imagine it had

  wood is gonna get to this stage the

  things that were happening later on like

  and it just kept all of that under its

  cloak for so long but I opened it on a

  phone and my night got wiped out I was

  home alone that night because my wife

  was working late she got home late and

  I'm like ah I've got a problem and I

  can't now shut this browser on my phone

  because I'll lose all the work I've

  invested into it and I ended up all

  night with my phone next to the bed on

  the floor and me deliberately sleeping

  like at the side of the bed so that I

  could wake up every 20 minutes or so

  just to check on how things were going

  this guy and go back deep this really

  got you but it got to a point where I

  was thinking this is just like I can't I

  can't keep doing this it was that loss

  of vision thing so I had to eventually

  say alright I'm gonna pack this one in

  as far as I've gotten

  I'm gonna have to pack this one in and

  start it again on a browser on my

  computer just so I can get work done and

  still do some editing and like live my

  life my browser started

  and I actually had to learn from my

  mistakes I made the first time around as

  well so I was a bit quicker at the game

  the second time but same thing for me as

  well as like round two I'm like okay I'm

  all business here right I know I know

  what to do

  yeah I mean you know me I'm I like sort

  of stats and numbers I do have like an

  addictive personality I'm quite

  obsessive hmm you know I'm someone who

  would do something for a long time for

  no real reason I know that you are

  obsessive it is interesting to me that

  this caught your obsession right where

  it got me

  it got me a big time yeah knowing what I

  know about it now I could have thought

  that this was like a honey pot set for

  exactly me on the internet right with

  like with like how hard god I wouldn't

  have thought that that same thing about

  you and I don't know much about who made

  it or why I just I didn't really look

  into that but I I do have to say from a

  game design perspective like like you

  said on on the surface level it does a

  very good job of holding back or just

  like just showing you enough that you

  you're interested in seeing what what

  the next thing is it does a very good

  job of that but the other thing that I

  found really fascinating is because the

  game is so simple is like I am very

  familiar with all of the mechanics from

  a game design perspective of what this

  is doing or you have had like countdown

  timers and it's using different

  currencies like these are are very

  familiar game mechanisms and what I

  found really fascinating is I almost

  always loathe games that use these

  mechanics because I think that they are

  a cynical ploy yeah they're often very

  cheap they're a very easy way to

  manipulate someone but somehow like this

  game just I think it was a great example

  of make a thing that is much better than

  the sum of its parts so if someone

  described to me the mechanics of this

  game I would have said like oh that's

  awful I will never play that I don't

  have any reason to play it and what I

  actually got out of it was a very

  enjoyable experience that was was

  totally unexpected so I'm genuinely glad

  that you liked it I'm sorry that you you

  lost two days of your life but it's

  interesting to me to hear that this one

  got you

  I'm sure the listeners - hello Internet

  can I go and give it a workout now so

  I'm sure we'll hear what other people

  thought about it up with the link in the

  show notes again recommend it when

  people give it a try go and have a look

  it's a gray honey pot hello hello

  Internet listeners you know what time of

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  harrys.com / each eye rights now that's

  harrys.com / h i so i recently was

  traveling brady i think i mentioned in

  the last show just as you were telling

  me about plane crash corner but i had a

  plane to step on so thanks as always for

  that we'd appreciate it

  Did you touch the outside when you go no

  I did not touch the outside but but keep

  an eye out you know for suspicious

  activities right Oh Chinese ladies you

  can say it got to make sure that engines

  nice and safe that's all I'm saying

  but so I was ended up going to New York

  for some business reasons and I ended up

  in downtown Manhattan where I have not

  been for a very long time

  I've been back to New York a bunch since

  I moved away in my adulthood but I

  hadn't been back to downtown Manhattan

  since I think probably about like 2004

  or maybe 2003 was the last time I was


  and of course traveling to New York time

  zones are all messed up I get in the day

  before I have stuff to do because travel

  days don't count they are void of

  nothingness and then the next morning I

  wake up and it's like 4:00 in the

  morning in New York and I'm thinking

  what am I gonna do well I need to wait

  for the rest of this city to wake up and

  gray it's a city that never sleeps

  it definitely sleeps Brady me it's an

  amazing advertising slogan from New York

  but New York goes just like if you're

  trying to get a bacon egg and cheese

  bagel at 4:00 in the morning like you're

  gonna be hard-pressed to find a lot of

  places that are open so it definitely

  sleeps Las Vegas is the city that

  doesn't sleep that one is real yeah you

  can gamble your life away - any time of

  day in Las Vegas but so I think about

  like what am I gonna do then it dawned

  on me as like oh I

  just realized I haven't been here for

  forever I have never seen the 9/11

  memorial since it was finished so the

  last time I was there in 2003 or 2004

  the 9/11 site was still just a hole in

  the ground it took for ever for any

  major construction to start in there and

  last time I saw it it was just a empty

  pit so I thought you know this is what

  I'm gonna do I have some time to kill

  let me wander down and take a look it

  was a very interesting experience to

  actually see this thing let me just

  describe to so you go to the 9/11

  memorial and the whole former ground

  where the Twin Towers were that has been

  turned into the memorial and what

  they've done is they've made these huge

  pools out of the footprints of the twin

  tower buildings and I have to say like I

  didn't grow up in New York but as

  someone in that area like I found going

  there early in the morning when no one's

  around and kind of coming up on these

  former footprints of the building I

  genuinely found it surprisingly

  affecting like the way they set the

  whole thing up you can't really see the

  footprints of the buildings until you're

  standing right there they've built it so

  that there's a border around the two

  holes and the border lists the names of

  everybody who died on those days it was

  interesting to see but there were two

  things that I sort of I thought about

  this on the actual day hmm one of which

  was very surprising to me which is

  almost the opposite of Trafalgar Square

  and to frogger square famously

  is the no-fun zone where you're not

  allowed to touch anything the 9/11

  memorial actually had a bunch of signs

  all around it specifically saying that

  it was okay to touch the memorial which

  I thought was a really interesting

  choice and when I first saw one of those

  I thought oh this is an interesting

  decision yeah I'm looking at the Sun it

  literally says if visitors are invited

  to touch the memorial names panels I

  would almost feel obliged to touch them

  after reading that it's a very strong


  the thing that which is like I saw one

  of those signs and I thought I think

  that's the right choice I think this is

  this is the way to go about it I approve

  of this but what I wish I had taken a

  photo that you can't see in that image

  is I saw one of those signs and then I'm

  walking around the memorial and as I I

  saw another one of those signs and then

  another one of those signs and they they

  must have one of those signs every 20

  feet going around the perimeter of both

  of the former towers and so at a certain

  point I thought okay it's a little much

  now right yeah there's too many signs

  now I'm feeling a little pressured into

  touching the names like like you said

  before I've not been there but because

  these signs are quite like colorful

  they're like a court of a British blue

  color and the memorial itself looks like

  it's a very kind of you know black and

  grey thing I would imagine all those are

  the blue spots everywhere would detract

  from the aesthetic of it in some way the

  signs that were there that I approve of

  the message were so frequent that they

  detract right it's like right walking

  around you keep seeing reminders that

  it's like you're invited to touch the

  names you're invited special names I was

  like yeah I get it like I get that I can

  touch the names it's the right decision

  buts too much it's too much Memorial

  Greg well can ask quickly Did you touch

  the names actually no I didn't touch the

  names on the day that I was there

  because while I know people who were

  affected by 9/11 I didn't know anybody

  who actually died on the day there was

  no name that I would be looking for

  there'd be nobody that I would have a

  personal connection with there so I

  didn't touch the names myself so I just

  had this funny experience which was I

  went to this memorial I did find it

  quite moving I thought it was nice at

  that that's it's different in that

  they're inviting you right to be part of

  this situation but there was something

  about it that just kept niggling on my


  that took me the rest of the day to kind

  of place it was on my mind so much that

  I thought I want to go back the next day

  and just see it again to see if I've

  settled this thought in my mind and the

  answer is that I have which is I think

  it's a bad Memorial and the reason I

  think it's a bad Memorial is have you

  ever taken a look at the 9/11 memorial

  on a satellite photo I have not all

  right okay I want you to open up Google

  Maps right now or Apple Maps or whatever

  and type in the 9/11 Memorial and take a

  look on a satellite image of what you

  see how would you describe what you're

  looking at tell me what you see Brady

  well you see like a sort of a tree

  grassy area and then you see these two

  the two black squares that are the

  footprints of where the twin towers were

  they're kind of grayish looking trying

  to think why this picture would

  displease you here's the words that have

  sailed on to describe it there's a

  balancing act that you're trying to do

  here right like it's a public space but

  you're also trying to you know recognize

  whatever has occurred with the memorial

  I mean you could suggest that maybe it's

  a stock from Andhra of a sky left behind

  on the city it looks that's the feeling

  that that is my conclusion yeah I think

  it's affecting as an individual to walk

  up and yeah to not be able to see the

  bases and then suddenly they're upon you

  in the way that it's built like you just

  can't see it in the distance and I think

  it is also affecting that they have

  water pouring down them so you can hear

  it but you can't see it yeah but I think

  this is like immortalizing an open wound

  I don't think there's any other way to

  really look at it it's like this is a

  thing that was done to New York and

  we're going to make sure that forever

  the exact damage that was done is like H

  on to the face of the city forever so

  it's just interesting because it's like

  I haven't really thought about this in

  years like I was just aware that the

  construction took forever and you know

  it end up being more than a decade and

  took ages to get the Freedom Tower put

  up and it's like you know I haven't been

  following it in in anyway even though

  I'm you know from New York State but

  seeing it now like when it's all done

  and finalized like I just I really think

  it's a bad decision I think it's a bad

  decision to make a memorial that is in

  the literal shape of the damage that was

  done to you like I think it should have

  been turned into a park that people in

  the city could enjoy with something

  respectful in that Park that

  memorializes the event but to like keep

  the wound open forever I just think it

  was an absolutely terrible decision and

  I've been mentioning it to people simply

  because I feel like I want to be talked

  out of this position like I want someone

  to convince me why it is a good decision

  so I can feel better about it but so far

  everyone I've run into has agreed with

  me on this one and I haven't been able

  to find someone who's gonna talk me out

  of it well I think you found someone who

  disagrees with you okay tell me why

  there but I'm not sure I'll be able to

  talk you out of it

  I mean I've not been there so I'm

  talking as someone who hasn't been there

  I did go to the site when it was being

  cleaned up and you know looked down into

  those big pits and I was actually in New

  York the day that they got the last

  pillar the last bit of rubbish out of

  that pit actually and there was a big

  ceremony so I was sort of the flyovers I

  happened to be there for that and

  looking at your picture which you sent

  me where you're sort of at ground level

  there is something about the whole

  that's very gaping and very concrete and

  very affecting

  I agree with what you say about sort of

  the scar and keeping the wound open but

  I think a memorial is about remembering

  what happened and I think if you gloss

  over it too much and make it like a park

  or you know an abstract statue or a

  place where children can play and have

  you know a place of happiness instead of

  a place of sadness I think the thing

  that is being memorialized over the

  course of maybe a generation or so can

  easily be forgotten

  and the power and the magnitude of the

  thing that happened gets glossed over

  and it just becomes a park where you

  walk the dog and you have a good time

  and you may say yeah that is good we

  shouldn't live in the shadow of a

  terrible thing that happened but then

  it's not really a memorial is it it's

  just a nice space

  that's wallpapered over a bad thing that

  happened maybe that is how you deal with

  tragedies I don't know like maybe that's

  the way to do it but if you want to

  memorialize and remember a horrific

  event I think putting like you know a

  pretty pink unicorn there isn't gonna do

  that it has to be something that

  reflects the scale and the horror of

  what happened have you ever been to her

  Rishabha now I haven't well I went to

  the war memorial at her Oshima there's a

  museum there for for the bombing and

  it's excellent that's one of the best

  places I've been they have a very

  interesting thing there which which you

  will find very interesting I'll send it

  to you now it's cold the her Osama peace

  memorial and basically right over the

  spot where the the atom bomb went off

  everything got completely flattened

  obviously but there was one thing that

  didn't amazingly there was like this

  prefectural industrial promotional hole

  that somehow remained standing but it

  got really beaten up and it looked in a

  bad way and when you look at the old

  pictures of flattened Hiroshima it's

  quite interesting that there's one

  building somehow stayed standing and

  then looking at photos that this is the

  building with the dome shape on top okay

  I call it the atomic bomb dome and they

  have kept that in its like ruined form

  right in the center of modern Hashima so

  the city now is really great and buzzing

  in the stuff happening all over the

  place and it's a really cool place but

  in the middle of it all is this like

  repped building that is like a testament

  to the the power of the atomic bomb it's

  really moving and it works really really

  well for me but maybe it works well for

  me for the same reason it wouldn't work

  well for you if you went to her Russia

  you might think the same thing it's

  keeping this wound open I think there's

  something to be said for it like you

  look at it and you think you know a

  terrible thing happened to this city and

  like let's not forget that and I think

  those two pits in the ground in New York

  are doing the same thing you know we're

  not glossing over this with teddy bears

  and dog walking areas and trees we're


  the city is scarred like we can give it

  laser surgery if you want and pretend

  that it's not there anymore or we can

  say you know we've got scars we all

  carry scars in love and things that have

  gone wrong and sometimes you look at

  your scars and you remember bad things

  that happen you look down at a bad scar

  on your leg and think remember that car

  accident you had and it's part of who

  you are you know you carry your scars

  with you for life this erosion memorial

  is an interesting counterpoint I've

  never been there in person I'll

  highlight one picture on that page for

  you great because I think it best

  demonstrates what I mean because a lot

  of the pictures you're looking at there

  the dome is kind of in close-up so you

  don't really see it in context but yeah

  I was looking at some pictures that are

  backed up from it so it's like on a

  green area that's a bit of a wall around

  it I just sent you one by the river that

  one in particular I think gives you a

  good feel for how it just Nestle's among

  the modern city on this on the bank of

  the river it's interesting to see it as

  part of the skyline there's something

  that strikes me that's different here

  that makes these memorials literal

  opposites of each other one is a hole in

  the ground the other one is a structure

  that survived the bomb yeah it's like I

  got a defiant note to it yeah I feel

  like that really makes an emotional

  difference this is a building that was

  not destroyed by the bomb the towers

  were completely destroyed and yeah like

  we're going to remember that forever

  it's a difficult job with this kind

  thing like like what do you do I mean my

  I am much more always in favor of thee

  it's not good to linger on the past like

  I just don't think lingering on the past

  really does you any favors but of course

  you know a nation has to sell itself as

  an entity like and what has occurred to

  it is is part of the story of what makes

  that a nation and like and what you used

  to bind people together like I I

  understand all of that but I feel like

  the Hiroshima monument is a thing that

  survived a terrible event right whereas

  the 9/11 memorial strikes me as just

  we're holding this wound open for all

  time and this area of the city is sort

  of dead for use

  because even if you're looking at it

  from the satellite picture from above it

  gives you a false sense of how park-like

  it looks like there are trees but the

  trees are all pretty far apart and it's

  all concrete below those trees so there

  is there is no way that that space is

  useable as a park it is a real void of

  an area I don't know it was I'm glad

  that I went to see it him in person like

  it was an experience to go and see it

  but I don't approve of it as as the

  memorial for all time for what happened

  on 9/11 from the podcast that brought

  you a vinyl record episode yep and a

  pair of limited-edition trainers I think

  we've come up with the mass-produced

  item piece of podcast hello Internet

  related merchandise to rule them all oh

  I haven't given this a name yet gray a

  project name Oh what are we gonna call

  it already the way you're pitching this

  story you say we I didn't know what was

  going on until it was done you did

  approve I said great can I spend a large

  amount of money on a project that I

  don't want you to know about yet and you

  said yes yeah I gave you approval but so

  when you're putting it as the like we're

  bringing you a thing it's a team

  everything we do on Halloween the RIC

  name but I always feel like I want you

  to get the credit as the man who does

  the legwork for some of these projects I

  say connect Rhett as the man whose house

  is filling up with boxes of merchandise

  so much so that he has to get a second

  area for his hello internet logistics

  center yeah I see what's going on here I

  mean I don't think there's any should we

  give it a code name I don't think it's a

  code name kind of thing no it's just

  operation hot it's operation hot stopper

  that's just what it is because we now

  have can I call them official yeah oh

  yeah they're their official they're as

  official as official can be all right we

  have official hello internet hot

  Stoppers how many hello internet hot

  suppers are in this first batch Brady

  how many are arriving in your house or

  have they arrived already or they're

  getting there tomorrow they're due to

  arrive tomorrow they're having too

  yeah a couple of boxes for we're talking

  in the thousands

  they've been mass-produced so they're

  like proper hot stoppers like you'll get

  in Starbucks for people who don't know

  what a hot stuff now is there's nobody

  it look there's nobody there's nobody

  this is a first podcast that they're

  listening to and they made it all the

  way to the end that person doesn't you

  can we can come on without having to

  explain what a hot stopper is all right

  I'm told they are official hot stopper

  dimensions so they'll fit into your take

  away coffee mug and the little plastic

  stopper part should fit into your

  industry-standard hole but instead of

  like starbucks mermaid at the top or a

  pret star your official hello Internet

  the hot stopper has at the top what else

  could it have at the top gray what is at

  the top of the hello internet heart

  stopper the nail in here that's the only

  thing the mighty nail in gear and unlike

  Starbucks green or pret purpley red of

  course the hello Internet official hot

  stopper is hello internet gray

  catalytics absolutely perfect it looks

  the roll so as of tomorrow I'm gonna

  have a whole stack of a hot stoppers

  bearing in mind I don't I don't drink

  coffee by the way you can use hot

  stoppers with tea you can tee it up I am

  partial to a hot chocolate as well so

  yeah or hot chocolate sound that works

  hot chocolates officially part of the

  lifestyle definitely not but can I just

  say this is and this amazed me I met

  with grey in London a couple of days ago

  and I this is when I first told him

  about about this project and I said grey

  I've got something to show you and I

  showed him a photo of the of the first

  one that had been printed at our secret

  production lat off-site and you were

  quite taken with it and we spoke about

  it for like 15 or 20 minutes and then

  gray said something I cannot believe he

  said he said to me I want you to send me

  lots of these I want a lot of these like

  there wasn't no okay I'll have one brady

  to keep you happy and file it away you

  said I want some and I see you of course

  I'll send you some and you said no no I

  want to

  I want you I want you to send me like a

  lot of bass for myself I couldn't

  believe it okay alright alright well

  like it's true they're great I do want

  to bunch them in my defense what I want

  it what I want to bring up here and why

  we're talking about it on the show now

  is that while you have brought into the

  world these hello internet hot stoppers

  and while I love them what we run into

  is a kind of economic problem of

  distribution so I wasn't sure if they

  were ever going to be more hot stoppers

  in the world

  we don't even know right now what the

  situation is is going to be because it's

  like I love that you made this I love

  that they're getting shipped to your

  house but when we were talking about it

  we essentially immediately realized like

  there is no economically or or time

  feasible way to even try to attempt to

  distribute these things because the

  thinking was obviously that some people

  who enjoy the podcast would want some of

  these you know you could have a handful

  of them and you could use them for your

  coffees and things like that when you go

  out and about and show a bit of hello

  internet pride you don't get thousands

  of hot staffers made and sent to your

  house if you're planning on just keeping

  them for personal use right like we're

  like that what you do know I always

  wanted these to get out there to the

  audience but the problem is obviously

  these are like little plastic things

  that on the face of it aren't worth like

  you know a large sum of money they'd

  like you know disposable plastic coffee

  sticks but like to get them to people I

  would have to sit here and like do

  labeling and go to the post office and

  put them into packaging and that would

  take a vast amount of time so you think

  we'll the only way I can justify that is

  to like you know put a cost on them that

  makes it worth my time

  but then you can't sell like a plastic

  hot stopper for you know quantities of

  dollars this is the thing right this is

  a product that when Starbucks has the

  made right Starbucks has some paper clip

  style factory out there in the world

  that's producing

  million hot Stoppers a day right and

  they're getting that's pretty much what

  I have to be getting they're getting

  shipped off to Starbucks in huge boxes

  right with you know 10,000 hot Stoppers

  at a go and to be given a wife to be

  given away for free because at this

  scale for this material the hot stopper

  from Starbucks perspective is

  essentially zero right think the cost to

  manufacture is nothing in comparison to

  everything else in their company right

  and so then so we were like hey let's

  take a product that's usually

  manufactured in the hundreds of millions

  and distributed in units no smaller than

  10,000 and get it instead delivered to

  us in units of thousands to be

  redistributed and then this is where we

  started getting stuck in terms of like

  what do we sell do we sell one at a time

  like I was trying to think like would

  that be almost like a funny joke like we

  sell one at a time I was like no it

  doesn't make sense to sell one at a time

  it's just so fiddly and and crazy and

  there's no price that could possibly

  justify it and then everything else

  we're coming up with a realizing it's

  just like it's like we have manufactured

  the world's worst merch product in terms

  of ability to distribute to people and

  and we just have no idea what we were

  giving it a lot of thought I spoke to

  you about it my days around and then he

  like takes to me later and said I can't

  stop thinking about it I can't solve the

  problem I brought it up with my wife

  right my wife and I had like a strategy

  session where we're discussing what is

  it that we could do with the hot

  stoppers and you know I told you like I

  was gonna get back to you about it and

  then it's like a whole other day went by

  where it was just on my mind and it kept

  rolling it over like how did we crack

  the hot stopper problem right like it's

  like we're trying to crack the problem

  where you're moving recycling from five

  cents to ten cents taking it across to

  Michigan like how can you do this

  economically it's like I don't know if

  there is a way to actually do this we

  have to do something because we can't

  just have all these it's just a story

  right there's there's like this pressure

  from the presence of these hot Stoppers


  so essentially what we're saying here is

  listen audience we're really looking for

  some ideas about how can we possibly

  make this work in a way that is not just

  unbearably time-consuming and tedious

  and makes no sense to do so so when you

  go and read it and say hey Brady can you

  send me one for a dollar can I just say

  no YouTube channels I run and like a

  whole bunch of other stuff I have to do

  and sitting in the other room to like

  put all these like five cent hot

  stoppers into envelopes and and then

  have people email me saying hey my hot

  stopper never arrived I can you send me

  another one and it's gonna turn into a

  little tip for anybody who's ever

  thinking of getting into the

  merchandising business right you think

  the hard part of it is shipping it oh no

  right like that's that's the easy part

  right the hard part is the eternal

  half-life of returns and difficulties

  and management's right and then from my

  perspective it's like hey you know what

  I love to do I love to raise the price

  on things right like I'm I'm happy to

  raise the price that like I was trying

  to strategize about auctions and then

  like all these other ideas that just

  don't work at all but the flip side is

  we would legitimately feel like terrible

  people selling individual hot stoppers

  or even a handful of hot stoppers at a

  price that would make it make any sense

  to be able to do it so that's why like

  we just feel so stuck because it's not

  like it's not like there isn't a number

  where it makes sense it's just that the

  number like we'd feel bad about the

  number right because we're just selling

  these hot Stoppers that are like a kind

  of free to manufacture after a certain

  point oh I had to spend a lot to have

  them out I mean yeah yeah and by the way

  a bit of inside baseball they mucked up

  the mold so we agreed the designer had

  the Marty nailing gear and then they

  started like manufacturing them and they

  sent me a photo saying we've made them

  all Brady here they are we're gonna send

  them to you and they'd mucked up the

  nailing gear design and the nail didn't

  have a point and it was like all round

  and and they got it wrong and I was like

  no no no you can yes so they had to make

  a second mold we didn't have to pay for

  that of course but they then made a

  second mold so that's gone through like

  iterations always a bunch of hassle with

  this stuff when I say free what I mean

  is like it's free at scale

  national hot stopper that has produced

  increases and the overall cost per hot

  stopper of manufacturer

  alright so we'd like it trends toward

  zero if for some reason we're you know

  getting ten thousand nine facts so it's

  like I find this a really interesting

  economic problem and I think we are very

  happy to open it up to the audience for

  any ideas about what to actually do with

  regards to distribution of this I mean I

  think you and I growed be quite happy to

  just wear the cost and like have them

  for ourselves

  I quite like the idea of you and I

  traveling around the world like Santa

  Claus just putting handfuls into various

  coffee shops anonymously like just

  shoving them in amongst the normal hot


  so people may just find a guerrilla

  attack and find a bunch of hello

  internet hot Stoppers in their local

  Starbucks and things like that but I

  think people will want some yeah so

  that's where the problem comes from yeah

  I don't know I'll leave a link to the

  reddit discussion as always yeah what

  are you gonna do with yours I'm gonna

  use it to stop hotness that's what I'm

  gonna do like so you take it to the

  coffee shop with you like they'll say do

  you want a hot strip and you'd be like

  nope that's exactly right because if

  there's anything I could do to not draw

  more attention to myself it's having a

  custom-made hot stopper and my local

  Starbucks yeah

  that's how I'm gonna fly under the radar

  that is like advanced coffee drinking

  though having your own hot stuff it's

  like that's like that's pro level coffee

  yeah I got this you could be like just

  like a Superman and like let people be

  like Oh have you got have you got a hot

  stopper for my drink and they're like no

  sorry about stock them you can just lean

  over and go here you go man yeah I'll

  sit there for an hour like a weirdo

  waiting for them to run out just so I

  can offer someone one when they go ah

  there's none of them here you're like

  what stop a Batman I do like the idea of

  us leaving them anonymously around the

  place but I do really like that do what

  are you gonna do like how will you carry

  it we just put it in like your top

  pocket like we're on your streamlined

  you know gray a man about town outfit

  could you put hot stoppers like you and

  your utility belt or something I don't

  know how any of this is can work

  know that I want them but I have thought

  none of this through I'm gonna have like

  a little batch in my car so when I go

  like through drive-through Starbucks I'm

  gonna be like when I see them putting in

  I'll go no no it's alright that's


  I've got one that's really good I like

  that government if by the way anyone out

  there runs their own coffee shop let's

  talk business if you've got achieve

  you've got a chain of coffee shops and

  you're thinking I like the cut of his

  jib yeah there that that's a nice set of

  hot Stoppers if you're looking for a

  supplier and we've already had the mold

  made so we can get them for your cheek I

  can send your thousands of the bad boys

  I am looking forward to the reddit this

  week I'm looking forward to the look on

  my wife's face when these boxes the hot

  stoppers arrived they're going straight

  to the storage unit