Hello Internet

H.I. #91: Last Man to Die?


  Brady's before gentlemen okay quite know

  how to parse that sentence but when I'm

  like checking my sound before like I

  found into you so I'm just checking it

  on my own mm-hmm I don't know what most

  people would do with they were just like

  I check one two or say hello hello but I

  always sing like I always sing to the

  microphone when I'm doing my check on my

  own and it just made me wonder to CGP

  grey ever sing I can't imagine you

  singing to yourself

  I mean Bria I am human after all if you

  prick me I will bleed right I don't

  think there is a human on earth who

  doesn't in some circumstance sing yeah

  it's a very very human experience that I

  definitely replicate on occasion try

  think like what is the best most

  probable singing time for me would be

  driving in a car on my own that's gonna

  be pretty high probability of singing

  time because I think that like that's

  the best time to sing to oneself okay

  you sing in the shower Brady you seem

  like a singing in the shower kind of guy

  I don't sing in the shower

  Shae I was like my thinking time I sing

  to the dogs a lot do you mean literally

  sing to the dogs or talk in a singsong E

  way no I'll sing to them but like I'll

  sing them a song but I'll change the

  words of the song to make it about the


  so like you know instead of like singing

  like Brianna Gill I'll sing Brianna dog

  to the dogs and things like that

  mm-hmm or if it's songs got the name of

  a woman in it like a love song I'll

  change it to one of the dogs names or

  something that seems like a lot of

  effort for very little understanding on

  their part probably and singing to

  yourself in the car is like a good use

  of your time I don't think it's in our

  case at the time I was simply saying it

  seems like a lot of creative effort to

  change the song to be dog related like

  sit there and like write a few drafts oh

  just sing a song and just change the

  word on the spot there's no effort it's

  not like a difficult thing to do I don't

  think I could change your song on the

  fly like that to me it would seem like

  oh you'd have to really think about that

  I guess if you are as as good with words

  as a Brady is you can just spontaneously

  start singing in the words come out it's


  poor like if this is the line of a song

  that says you know I love you baby you

  just change it to I love you Lulu

  there's no cleverness here I'm not like

  changing all the different words in the

  meaning of the song I'm just like

  changing one word to make it cute about

  the dogs I'm sure they appreciate it


  the question I have is if you're not

  particularly into songs what songs do

  you sing like I can't imagine you

  knowing the words to any songs if more

  just that the like the music plays a

  very particular role in my life I don't

  have very many venues for new music to

  come into my life hmm I just don't

  follow it yeah I think like most people

  you get kind of largely stuck in the

  music that existed when you were younger

  so I feel like there's a bunch of song

  that I have on rotation that are from a

  while ago so you would sing along you

  would never sing without music to sing

  along with you wouldn't light as well on

  the stairs and sing like the first line

  of a song that's stuck in your head for

  some reason I'm literally not sure I

  could do like this didn't even occur to

  me as a scenario yeah when you're

  discussing you're singing to the dogs I

  presume that there's something on the

  radio and you're changing your X on the

  fly is you're singing along to dogs this

  changes the whole conversation baby

  because the singing is along with

  something yeah right and then the song

  is guiding your brain in this rut that's

  a very unfamiliar rut so I couldn't just

  do it spontaneously that's madness I

  don't know how you could do that like I

  wouldn't do a full song but like if like

  one or two lines of a song gets stuck in

  my head and often it's a song I don't

  like like I was at the gym a few days

  ago and they were playing the song hold

  on by Wilson Phillips which is a song

  from my youth but it's not a song I

  would like want anyone to ever hear me

  sing and it's just one line from the

  song it's been stuck in my head for days

  and days song as I walk up the stairs

  and I want it to go away

  but I will just sing it you know I'm

  sorry about that torment Brady this is

  not a frequent experience for me the

  line goes if you hold on for one more

  day but then if the dogs walk in the

  room I'll sing if you hold on for one

  more dog you know like right I'll just

  sing it to the dogs I see the pattern

  here everyone sings to their dogs you

  wait and say I don't think to Lucy

  ah and you could sing actual Lucy songs

  too I used to have a dog called Lucy and

  I had another dog called Carlos and they

  used to be out in the back

  together and my friend Tim used to come

  round and he would sing Lucy in the

  backyard with Carlos to the music of

  Lucy in the Sky with Diamonds

  I guess Lucy is a name that has more

  song possibilities than Lulu yeah

  songwriters out there get on the Lulu

  songs when we used to have music lessons

  in school we used to have to sing out of

  the songbook there was a song about Lulu

  it was called don't bring Lulu and it

  was about someone was throwing a party

  and they didn't want them to bring this

  person called Lulu cause she always

  ruined the party

  I often sing add don't bring Lulu to

  Lulu what are you talking about sing out

  of the songbook we used to have these

  music lessons in primary school where we

  had these sing-along books and the

  teacher would then put on a tape that

  came with the book and the songs would

  play on the cassette tape and we would

  like have to sing along it was just one

  of the activities we would do okay so

  you're talking about little little kids

  school okay yeah yeah primary school but

  there was a song called don't bring Lulu

  and all the songs used to sing in school

  they're all burned into my head I still

  know the lyrics to don't bring Lulu so I

  have got a Lulu song ready to roll good

  you should think of to her after the

  show I can't she's not here tonight well

  where is she

  well I'm away for the next few days so

  the dogs are away at their holiday home

  it's a bit of a sad time for me when the

  dogs are away right holiday home in the

  country let's buy the beach by the beach

  they love it they get to walk on the

  beach every day I sometimes think

  they're a bit sad with regular listeners

  or even irregular listeners to hello

  internet we know that you and I have

  different attitudes to supermarket

  checkouts you prefer the self-checkout

  mmm-hmm because you don't like sort of

  awkward interactions with the people who

  are doing the checkout right and I

  prefer to go through with the people

  because I think the people working in a

  supermarket are quicker and better at it

  and I don't mind the interaction you're

  a man of the people you like to have a

  little chat hear what's going on in

  their life this has been well

  established so anyway an amazing thing

  happened tonight like a switch went

  tonight in a funny kind of way because I

  went to the supermarket tonight and it

  was just a quick smash and grab I just

  needed to grab three things dinner

  I just need a three thing look and I had

  my three things and then I got to the

  checkouts there's a long long row of

  checkouts where I shop very long human

  checkouts human checkouts and then right

  at the end are all the self checkouts

  but I was very far from the self

  checkouts and I walked up to the human

  checkouts with their big long conveyor

  belts and their spacious alleys for

  supermarket trolleys and write all of

  that and it was very quiet and there

  were two or three that had no people so

  I could have just walked up and said

  here my three things thank you very much

  and I was suddenly overcome with this

  sense of like guilt or they would think

  I was a bad person for going up to the

  normal check out with the big conveyor

  belt and all the infrastructure in place

  for a trolley and I was just going there

  with my three items I felt like if I

  went up I don't know I felt like I

  couldn't do it I felt like three items

  were too few so instead I traipsed all

  the way to the end to the self-checkout

  where I had to queue and where there

  were people using the self-checkout

  using trolleys with up to like 40 items

  laborious Lee self jerking themselves

  out and I stood there in the queue

  waiting to use my three items on the

  self checkout because I felt this

  pressure or guilt or something coming

  from somewhere that I couldn't use he

  came and check out with so few items oh


  reading two things first of all that

  this story just confirms to me like you

  don't know how to supermarket there's

  something is that that that invalidates

  everything I've ever told me about your

  supermarket use and secondly I feel like

  you're also in a supermarket in an

  alternate universe like who's going to

  the self-checkout with a trough like

  I've never seen such a thing where

  someone goes to the self yet to be fair

  that freaked me out I swear she had at

  least 40 items in her trolley and she

  was very slow I was like why okay but

  does your supermarket not have a ten

  items or fewer Lane that would absolve

  your guilt of having the few items

  yeah and that's right next to the

  self-checkout but once I'd gotten there

  I thought I well I might as well do the

  self check but there were all these

  empty lanes up ahead and I don't know

  whether it's just in my head or there is

  some yeah it's just rescher that's

  happening in society now where if you've

  got few items it's considered bad to use

  a checkout person but I felt like I

  couldn't do it

  okay I think this is all in your head

  but I'm curious madness do you feel that

  there is some kind of social norm that

  is spreading here yet if you have small

  items you have to use the the

  self-checkout yeah I feel like if you're

  like a young able-bodied person there's

  a few items like where I was you know in

  looking all super fit in my gym gear and

  all my style yeah I'm a you know with my

  three items so then if I went into like

  the lane for the people with trolleys or

  people who struggle to do things

  themselves they'd look at me and go what

  are you doing here like okay you're

  doing this yourself you're like what are

  you so you feel like the human checkout

  lanes are not for it the physically fits

  and with small items like is that where

  you feel like this is going like you

  need a bunch of stuff yeah where you

  need difficulty that must be it I felt

  like I would be abusing a privilege hmm

  which I know is stupid and like it keeps

  people in a job if I use that line yeah

  but I felt like it would be lazy of me

  to have used it it just happened tonight

  I would I walk towards and I thought now

  I can't do it I've got to go and do the

  self checkout even though I've got to

  walk all the way to the other end of the

  store and then go in a line and then do

  the checking out myself which I hate

  doing and I'm not good at I have this

  mental image of you walking past ten

  cashiers every one of them with their

  eyes on you watching you walk past

  thinking that guy is part of the problem

  that guy is why I'm gonna get fired next

  week because he won't use one of these

  checkout lanes I know it may be a rut it

  was a weird thing I thought you'd be

  pleased by it but I couldn't believe I

  was doing it I think he just confirms to

  me that we have wildly different

  Supermarket experiences and that makes

  no sense I feel like there's a related

  question here about social expectations

  around the use of common areas in this

  way so here's a question hmm

  there's a bunch of bathrooms one of the

  bathrooms has the handicap symbol on it

  yeah all of the bathrooms that you could

  use except for that one are full hmm

  what do you do in the scenario Brady

  probably white you'd wait interesting is

  anyone there that can see me there is a

  security camera in the in the hallway

  all right so you're looking at like a

  bunch of doors and there's a hallway and

  there's a security camera I mean I'd be

  less worried about a security camera

  than actual

  the people but this is why I picked that

  in particular there's no human yeah but

  you are not purely on your own if I was

  capable of waiting okay I would most

  likely wait if the situation felt like

  it was becoming urgent I may go into the

  unused one but if I could wait I would

  probably wait what about you I have

  always been of the opinion very firmly

  that those bathrooms are handicap

  accessible they are not handicap

  exclusive right I am perfectly happy

  without any social guilt whatsoever to

  stroll right into the handicapped

  bathroom oh so though the times I have

  used those toilets I actually find all

  that extra space quite disconcerting to

  use a toilet and have like a really long

  long way away to the door and have all

  that open space around me I find quite

  unnerving don't you is it like bathroom

  agoraphobia is that what you're saying

  yeah kind of like I don't want to be

  using a bathroom with that much space

  around me and lend me that far from the

  door because if like someone opens the

  door or tries to open the door I'm too

  far away to do anything about it that is

  a good point if you forget to latch it

  you don't have the ability to emergency

  slam yeah at the door and save everyone

  the embarrassment of what's happening


  all it's going to happen is the door

  opens and there you are exposed to the

  world I'm picturing that frog walking in

  there yeah he just opens the door and

  stands there and smiles at you that's

  what the Frog does he's not even there

  to use the bathroom he's just there to

  watch I noticed that you have changed

  your Twitter handle and picture to get

  into the Halloween theme you have

  succumbed to the pumpkin pressure how

  ways becomes a pumpkin pressure I don't

  know about that you did you think that's

  a fair description of what what occurred

  oh well I mean either that or someone

  just suggested such a cracking name

  you obviously have extremely creative

  friends here's the thing Brady sometimes

  you hear an idea and you just know the

  idea is irresistible I feel like it's

  not actually pumpkin pressure I just

  like that idea was too good to pass on

  and plus unbeknownst to you at the time

  of recording I was immediately after

  going to be posting a video that was

  related to death and so like as soon as

  that show was over I was like I can't

  not do this I have no free will in this

  scenario I'm going to have to change my

  name to r.i.p gray is not even a choice

  so are you happy though do you feel you

  feel pleased with yourself I do you feel

  like a little sense of ownership

  obviously because you then put a death

  video didn't make me wonder would you

  have done it if you didn't have a death

  video in the works but I think you would

  have I think it was a good enough idea

  that you would to be fair I the death

  video thing made it perfect it made it

  absolutely perfect in the world but it

  was it struck me as just such a good

  idea and said such again masterful

  wordsmithing partic of a Brady Haran

  mm-hmm I think had the stars not aligned

  you would still have had a pretty good

  chance of getting me to do that can I

  just say this whole with this people

  changing their names to halloween-themed

  and changing their avatars and that


  the thing about it that bothers me the

  most and I don't know if it was hammered

  home enough in the last episode so I

  just this is one point I want to make

  it's not so much my problem with doing

  it it's how long people do it for they

  should just do it on the day of

  Halloween like just on yeah first change

  your name to something spooky we all

  have a laugh doing it for the whole

  month you know did I don't think they

  celebrate at the end of World War 2 for

  a month we change things for Halloween

  for a whole month I have to completely

  agree with you on that and and also I

  agree that we didn't hammer at home well

  enough and in the previous show it's

  like it could be fun for a day but the

  length of time it's just too much it's

  just too long and even the whole r.i.p

  gray thing i was aware that i felt like

  it was a little soon to do it anyway hmm

  halloween is fantastic as we both agree

  one of the best holidays in the year

  everybody loves Halloween but doing it

  for an entire month is just too long I'm

  also gonna say like I especially think

  Halloween is a holiday that really

  doesn't serve being stretched out for a

  long period of time like Christmas I can

  kind of get on board with

  and Christmas from like Thanksgiving

  until Christmas it's like okay well we

  just have a time of year that is merry

  and filled with lights

  it's the season it's a season yeah it's

  a Christmas season and I'm fine with

  that I don't like it with it six months

  in advance right but I can deal

  essentially with two months of Christmas

  that's fine but a month of Halloween is

  like if we had Valentine's Day and you

  started Valentine's Day stuff January

  7th yeah no more Halloween stretching

  people feet oh come on

  one day the build-up week I enjoy the

  week build at work yeah building like a

  week before seeing the decorations go up

  but but Lex they sell pumpkins so long

  before Halloween that I think there's no

  way those pumpkins are still gonna be

  good by Halloween I feel like there's a

  delicate line which I'm okay with sort

  of fall themed decorations maybe up to a

  month before Halloween and in that case

  is like while putting out some pumpkins

  okay pumpkins a little a little close

  but like if you want to put out a squash

  I'm very okay with that right but it's

  like where do we draw the line of what

  becomes a Halloween decoration between

  whatever it is just like seasonal

  decoration I don't know exactly where to

  draw that line but I just need to

  specify you know for the record here

  that I'm okay with some fall themed

  decorations leading up to Halloween but

  Halloween is spiders and ghosts and

  skulls and witches and werewolves and

  vampires and all that stuff that's week

  before tops in the previous episode I

  said and I spoke on behalf of my home

  nation of Australia that when we

  pronounce the word Lego we say Lego and

  you were quite surprised by this you

  were like oh what a funny way to say

  Lego and I'm telling you but it was an

  Australian ISM I had never come across

  it was an Australian in Australia we say

  Lego can you imagine my horror when my

  fellow Australians started calling me on

  and saying what are you talking about

  ready it's Lego goodness is this like

  have I just alone been doing it all this


  yeah was this a joke that your family

  pulled on you yeah I think all families

  have that thing that they do which i

  think is kind of strange where a kid is

  mispronouncing something in a funny way

  and the whole family just lets it slide

  for what seems like a really long time

  like maybe your family did this with you

  and Lego well anyway I was a bit worried

  so I did a bit more research a bit more

  polling a bit more informal surveying of

  people out there and also reading some

  articles and it turns out saying Lego

  instead of Lego is a South Australian

  thing it's something that a lot of

  people from my home state of South

  Australia the capital of which is

  Adelaide right say so it's actually a

  regional pronunciation that I was

  forcing upon you not all Australians

  probably not even all South Australians

  for all I know but it's a very South

  Australian thing to say Lego and I've

  since learned there are other little

  enclaves of Canada and the United States

  like certain regions or states and areas

  where I was also getting a high Lego

  pronunciation so there are little

  pockets of Lego out there but it wasn't

  like a whole countrywide thing and I

  just wanted to clarify that I'm just

  pulling up a map of Australia here

  because when you say South Australia

  yeah do you do you mean oh this is

  embarrassing is the word province is

  what's the the subdivision there States

  States okay do you mean the state of

  South Australia or do you mean southern

  Australia like the bottom half of

  Australia I mean the state of South

  Australia because Victoria and New South

  Wales which Theora I would also appear

  to be southern states right other more

  popular states and they do not say Lego

  they were the ones who were jumping what

  do you mean - my eyes is there some way

  that they're not more southern it's a

  little known fact outside of Australia

  but South Australia which is not the

  southernmost Australian state by far is

  actually differently than it really is

  okay you are right but to defend myself

  if you lived in Australia you would

  refer to those as the eastern states

  Victorian New South Wales and Queensland

  you would say the eastern states where

  are you from arm from the east coast I'm

  from the eastern states so even though

  Victoria and

  south wales are very southern they are

  referred to as eastern this is the

  linguistic southern verse yes yes I just

  want to clear that up to reduce the

  amount of feedback that you weren't

  getting from someone from Perth

  complaining that people in the southern

  part of Australia

  don't say leg oh I know my Australian

  geography here Brady it's just exciting

  to hear you talking about these places

  to be honest yeah do you like that yeah

  we could talk about a little Northern

  Territory Darwin Northern Territory of

  course is not a state right it's a

  territory there's sometimes talk about

  giving the Northern Territory statehood

  but it hasn't happened yet they drink a

  lot of beer in the Northern Territory oh

  yeah the highest beer consumption per

  capita of anywhere in the world well I

  mean it looks like if you're in Darwin

  you're very far from everything else so

  yeah what are you gonna do you're gonna

  say Lego and you're gonna drink your

  beer you're gonna drink your beer hello

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  before so of course in the great

  tradition of hello internet it feels

  like as soon as we talk about a thing

  the whole world around that thing

  changes yeah I'm sure

  because of the show we are influences

  yes we are influencers shapers shapers

  of culture yeah by no means is this the

  car effect or when you buy a car you see

  it everywhere it's not that at all it's

  like it's it's like a reverse the secret

  right we think about a thing in the

  whole world around us changes to bend to

  our thoughts that's just a straight line

  of causation it's a straight line of

  causation yeah so one of the things that

  has happened is we have been discussing

  emoji we have we've been discussing

  animal emoji in particular in some

  detail and B emoji in particular and

  complained about Apple B emoji guess

  what emoji is being changed in the next

  release of iOS Brady really the B emoji

  is getting an update that Ronna yeah now

  this brings up a thing that I

  I want to discuss with you so if you

  look at the link in a hit put in the

  show notes I am it is not just the B

  emoji that is getting changed there are

  five animal emoji that are getting

  changed in the next update to iOS okay

  the B the snail the octopus the whale

  and the dolphin okay on the image you

  are looking at the top row is the new

  version and the bottom row is the old

  version yes can you describe for the

  listeners what you're looking at and

  tell me your thoughts on these changes

  alright well let me talk you through it

  we do spend a lot of time talking about

  emojis for an audio medium but anyway I

  think emojis and podcasts is like peanut

  butter and jelly right they just go

  together perfectly so the old bee was

  like a big fat bully be with little tiny

  tiny stick legs and stinking antennae

  and now it's getting more substantial

  realistic insect D legs and beefed up

  antennae more realistic beefed up wings

  got a slightly droopy a sting yes it's

  true it is it does have a do Priya sting

  is a big bi as well yes sorry of course

  the change of the eye is the probably

  the most significant change from just a

  little lazy white dot when someone

  really wasn't trying to a more sort of

  realistic being three-dimensional dome

  like dark eye with even with a little

  bit of white reflection in it from the

  light from the camera that is somewhere

  off screen for this emoji or the window

  or whatever here okay a snail the main

  changes to the snail it's just got more

  detail that it's putting more sort of

  photo realism in there and again they've

  obviously decided the previous eyes that

  are on the end of the stalks on the head

  of the snail were just too small and

  insignificant and they've given it sort

  of slightly larger darker eyes are the

  bay and the snail also used to have two

  little human eyes on top of it stalks

  like if you zoom in there basically

  human eyes like nose eyes like that

  yeah so yes more realism there a bit

  more realism but not a dramatic change

  the octopus on the other hand they've

  gone in hard hmm because the old octopus

  was quite cutesy

  and was sort of looking at you frontin

  and it looked like something that would

  be a child's toy or something you wanted

  to give a little cuddle to and

  significantly it also has four legs but

  the upgrade they've gone for more the

  killer octopus that you're scared will

  grab a ship and pull it underwater and

  again it looks more realistic it looks

  more aggressive if it's in a more

  aggressive pose oh yeah I just realized

  that actor pussy's doing like a little

  bicep curl with each arm they still have

  an up their game to eight legs they

  stopped at six well you know what can

  you do and you know there's just a

  little bit more texture on the head and

  again we've gone for more sort of

  realism moving on to the whale the whale

  again was super cute cutesy child's toy

  that would play with in the bath and

  they've kind of maintained the cutesy

  nurse it hasn't changed a tremendous

  amount they've put the eye in a more

  realistic place it still doesn't look

  like a very realistic whale and they've

  added a lot more fine detail to the

  water spout that it's blowing at the top

  and finally the dolphin dolphin again

  hasn't changed much it went from a

  pretty kind of run-of-the-mill artistic

  representation of a dolphin that's quite

  cutesy and they've pretty much kept it

  that way but they've just added more

  sort of texture and fluting and designed

  to the side of the dolphin and they've

  made the fins look a bit more real it

  still doesn't look like a real dolphin

  but they've given it more it looks more

  like something that would be a living

  thing rather than a drawing do you have

  a preference for the new versus the old

  like if you have to accept them as a

  package new versus old as a package I

  prefer the old I don't like the path

  they're going down here they're moving

  away from the spirit of emojis I agree

  with you 100% and in fact when I saw

  this image I liked I was thinking about

  our conversation last time about emojis

  a surprising amount you're talking about

  how songs get stuck in your head and

  you're thinking about them over and over

  again I found myself since our last

  recording constantly thinking about like

  what is the Platonic ideal of emoji

  right this is this is an idea that was

  just recurring in my brain over and over


  and while I was thinking that of course

  like our show goes out and then a couple

  of days later Apple as a direct result

  announces that they're going to change a

  bunch of the emoji and this image like

  this side-by-side image here of the five

  animals and how they're changing it it

  really crystallized something in my mind

  which is like I didn't like the Apple

  emojis all that much to begin with and

  now I really don't like them and it is

  because it's like Apple has lost the way

  of what an emoji is and the thing that

  crystallized in my mind is like oh I

  know what emoji are emoji are modern

  hieroglyphics and as such they need some

  level of abstraction like emojis are

  almost like an alphabet and the more I

  think you make it like a photograph

  which is the way Apple is clearly going

  like they're making them more photograph

  like more impossible to draw the less I

  feel like their emoji the less I like

  them and I think there's also

  crystallized why in the last show we

  were talking about the blobs like the

  Android emojis would draw a family it

  would be a family of blobs like four

  little blob creatures like oh that's a

  family versus an increasingly realistic

  depiction of a family I could never

  quite put my finger on like why does

  that kind of bug me and now I know

  because I feel like some level of

  abstraction is intrinsic to what an

  emoji is and if you're taking away all

  abstraction I don't think it's an emoji

  anymore like it's just a picture

  I mean speculating on what's going on

  here because I think I kind of see

  what's going on here and why it's

  happening hmm and it all comes down to

  how you use your emoji okay tell me

  there are two main ways that I use my

  emoji the first way is when I'm sending

  text messages maybe to someone like you

  where we're exchanging a series of sms's

  and occasionally we'll drop an emoji and

  to be funny or express something and in

  that case the emoji is appearing in a

  line of text and ideally you want it to

  be about the size of the text

  yes it's sometimes it's in the line

  right and when that happens they small

  cute low detail emoji are ideal and the

  super detailed emoji seem in fact seem

  very very useless

  I can imagine these emoji at that size

  there is a second way that I use emoji

  though and there is when I'm on snapchat

  sometimes I'll take a picture and I want

  to add an emoji to the picture and when

  you do that you make your emojis much

  bigger where I drag them onto the screen

  and then you pinch with your fingers

  outwards to make them bigger and bigger

  so they become almost a feature of the

  picture like I might take a picture of

  the sea and then say oh wouldn't it be

  funny if I put a big emoji whale in

  there swimming in the sea right and if I

  do that the emoji becomes very big and

  in that case the detail starts having

  some use and in some ways I see more

  utility in the detailed ones and the

  very low detail emojis when they're

  blown up big become quite unusable and

  they just sort of look out of place and

  wrong they don't work so I don't use

  them so I think what's happening is

  they're seeing more and more people are

  using their emojis as these huge

  decorative ornaments in sort of picture

  based communication and they're being

  used to less and less as a punctuation

  mark in a sentence and maybe that's why

  they're changing the emojis in this way

  and for me that's a shame because I

  still prefer the use of emoji in

  sentences and text you know in a tweet

  or a text to someone so these detailed

  ones are doing me a disservice but I can

  imagine on snapchat these ones will be a

  bit handier that's an interesting

  distinction I have a like a slightly

  more cynical interpretation Apple is

  rolling out this an emoji feature with

  their new phone where you can have the

  emoji be animated okay I have a

  suspicion that Apple is setting up all

  of these emoji as being animated things

  in the future to maybe integrate with

  face recognition on their phone or to be

  able to do things with maybe or maybe

  not someone spent a lot of time looking

  through the history of all the Apple

  emoji and seeing the direction they were

  going in who knows but if you were to do

  that there's a clear arrow toward

  increasing detail and especially

  suddenly like way more detail I suspect

  that that's where they're going with

  this but that aside on all platforms

  you're totally right that there are two

  different use cases there's in line with

  text and there is out of line with text

  that's totally true

  but what makes an emoji and emoji versus

  like the concept of a sticker which many

  platforms have is that an emoji can

  exist in line with text that's what it

  is yeah like I feel very strongly that

  that is that at the level that the

  design should be at and at that level

  you have to have a some abstraction

  built into the design you can't just

  have a tiny picture of the thing you

  have to have some level of abstraction

  but yeah big giant detailed emojis

  everywhere that's where we're going I do

  think your emoji theory is more likely

  right actually if I have to weigh up my

  theory which involves Apple saying let's

  make emojis that are more useful for our

  customers or your theory which is let's

  make emojis which will sell more iPhones

  gee how does that board meeting go


  amongst the sort of the the first world

  youtuber problems that we grew up about

  most freebooting must be up there and

  I've been at another freebooting victim

  recently but it did highlight one of my

  little gripes about freebooters that I

  don't think I've raised before I know is

  there some depth left unplumbed on this

  topic is shocking I think you'll

  appreciate this one and I think it comes

  from a confusion that people have about

  using things fairly fair use and things

  like that and it's maybe a confusion

  that someone like you has helped foster

  with some of our previous conversations

  although I don't think like you're the

  root of the problem here I just think

  it's like because people have probably

  heard us in the past often talk about

  you know percentages like when we were

  talking about that recent fair use thing

  there was you know what percentage of

  the video was taken and stuff right so

  this is what I'll just give you the

  practical example because this shows the

  example perfectly I got some alert or

  something on my system saying or

  someone's you know free btg video go and

  check it so I went along and did my

  check because I always have a look and

  see what's this is in the YouTube

  content in the YouTube backend because

  sometimes they haven't free booted or it

  is fair use so it's not even my content

  and things like that so

  go and have a look so I find this video

  it's this math video of mine and the

  freebooter in question has taken like a

  huge chunk of the video like not the

  whole video but say three or four

  minutes consecutive unedited and

  commented it's just a really nice

  explanation of a mathematical concept

  with nice animations and it was very

  useful to this person so they've taken

  that piece of my video and they've

  dropped it into a video they've made

  that's about an hour long I imagine is

  made to be like a lecture or a lesson or

  something it's a big long video and

  partway through they've obviously said

  ah to understand this concept here we go

  and then they'll play my video for three

  or four minutes and then they crack on

  with whatever they were doing in their

  video just drummed it in and in there

  kind of thing that they wrote where they

  like defend to why this is fair use

  their defense was this is fair use

  because I used four minutes of your

  video but that is only ten percent of my

  whole video because my whole video only

  ten percent of it is to your video

  that's fair use because that's hardly

  anything and all the rest of it came

  from other places so I haven't free

  booted you and I think that's ridiculous

  I mean that's a new one to me I haven't

  come across that before I've seen it a

  few times I mean by that rationale I

  could upload all of Star Wars and as

  long as I tagged another 30 hours on the

  end of it of me just juggling I can say

  hey I didn't free boot Star Wars because

  it's only ten percent of my video yeah

  or anything like I'm just gonna go

  around and make a compilation of all of

  the funniest videos on YouTube right and

  for each individual content creator week

  oh but you're only 1% of the total thing

  that has been created yeah it's like if

  I walked around Bristol and punched 50

  people in the face and one of them came

  up to me said hey he just assaulted me

  and said hey no no I punched 50 people

  in the face metaphor escalation here

  you haven't been assaulted because lots

  of other stuff has happened so you

  haven't been wronged

  so I guess did you see this a lot like

  people are using your videos in in like

  a longer selection of other thing cuz I

  think that is interesting yes that is

  quite common like someone will make like

  a big long lesson and you know today I

  want to

  to you all the ins and outs of calculus

  and to do so I'm gonna like go and

  cherry-pick all the best explanations of

  every concept ever and put them all

  together in a big mashup hmm but it's

  not like they've taken like a few

  seconds and critiqued it or used it like

  it's just a complete section like a big

  section being used because that's just

  you know useful to them but don't you

  want to spread knowledge of calculus

  around the world I'm sure part of the

  justification also had some line about

  are this video is you know it's it did

  say although I'm making money from it

  it's educational I don't know what

  happened but basically I press the

  button to say I don't agree with this

  and I don't know what's gonna happen

  next I don't know how the system works I

  think after a while YouTube just drop it

  don't neighbor well you can end up

  getting all the revenue from the ads

  that are running on their video right

  that's the thing that can happen but if

  they then say no no I disagree ten

  percents fine

  what does YouTube do now do they then

  say well now what do you say Brady are

  you gonna take them to court if there's

  this Mexican standoff and you're no

  one's willing to go to court who wins in

  the end

  it's the person with the copyright claim

  win right we have this actually with the

  hello internet video that was uploaded

  several episodes ago when we talked

  about the I can't say the name of the

  song but the Melissa Florian whatever

  yeah that Italian one right the Italian

  one and so I put that song in the

  podcast for people to hear yeah just

  like a sample here's what it sounds like


  hooligan debate whether or not that was

  like too much or not enough right this

  is always the ambiguities of copyright

  well greg was only 0.01% of our podcast

  so I think we're safe yeah I may have

  used thirty seconds of the song but the

  podcast is really long yeah but so

  anyway there was a like as I kind of

  expected there was going to be there was

  a copyright claim on that yeah and I

  went through the little appeals process

  like I think this is fair use and the

  copyright holder came back and said no

  they disagree and the way the YouTube

  system works which I think YouTube

  should definitely improve is that all of

  the ad revenue on that podcast goes to

  the copyright holder for that song yeah

  to me seems like a little much even if

  you were in the wrong and use too much

  of it which I don't think you did but

  even if you did yeah

  fact that from that hole to our podcast

  they now get all the revenue because we

  used 40 seconds of their song instead of

  15 that's nuts

  yeah it's a weird system it seems like

  from everything I've seen with other

  Creators and the stuff I've had

  first-hand experience on that like one

  copyright holder becomes the one who

  wins like who's the one that's most

  wronged and that person is the one who

  ends up with the claim on the revenue

  from the advertising dollars no well

  what are you gonna do

  what are you gonna do you got to pick

  your fights don't you yeah then you pick

  that fight told that guy now well I

  don't know what's gonna happen

  sing we're talking about YouTube fights

  should we deal with my other one that's

  bubbling a look at the moment yeah so my

  other little YouTube problem at the

  moment gray is I have had another video

  demonetized put into the sin bin of

  advertising deemed inappropriate and

  unfriendly for advertising and instead

  of that nice green tick you get next to

  a video saying no you can have ads on

  this video I have the dreaded yellow

  tick of naughtiness brainy I just have

  to ask why do you keep uploading

  inappropriate videos to YouTube I mean

  where there's smoke there's fire right

  you give me an example

  oh there's one where you're uploading

  deranged videos to YouTube and you get

  this slap down but you keep doing it you

  seem to not be able to help yourself

  yeah I keep pushing the boundaries if

  it's allowed you keep uploading all

  these inappropriate videos do you do

  that they're not advertiser friendly I

  don't know what you're up to over there

  on objectivity those of you who don't

  watch objectivity and how dare you not

  watch it why how dare you but if you

  somehow a measly episode we did a video

  about this guy called Eadweard Muybridge

  who you may not know the name but in the

  1800s was bit of a big deal he came up

  with this way of taking in the early

  days of photography of taking multiple

  pictures very quickly in succession

  sometimes being tripped by strings and

  things like that and he used other

  technology that he pioneered yeah to

  show things that were happening quickly

  like a horse running yeah I feel like

  everybody in the world even if you don't

  know his name

  everyone's seen that video clip of like

  here is the first time we had

  motion video in a way horse running he's

  the guy who did that because there was

  actually a debate whether you know all

  the horses hooves were off the ground at

  given time and stuff so he he wanted to

  break it down he then started filming

  everything he could use this camera

  system at so anyway he started taking

  all these pictures to show animal

  locomotion and then he also started

  showing human locomotion so he would

  show humans doing things like walking

  and running and using an axe and fencing

  and wrestling and all these different

  things so it could be studied in detail

  and not only was it like you know a lot

  of scientific breakthroughs were being

  made this was leading towards obviously

  movies and moving pictures because

  you've got this quick see he was like

  the first slow-mo guy I like to think it

  was it was in slow-mo they were playing

  it back in real time well no but like it

  was using like a high-speed camera to

  show things that were too fast for the

  eye to see okay he's kind of doing that

  same thing you know it was a high frame

  rate for the time okay

  all right because we had no frame yeah

  12 frames per second it's amazing so you

  know when he was taking pictures of

  humans doing stuff they were usually not

  wearing clothing because you wanted to

  be able to see you know muscles and the

  way the leg was moving and the arm was

  moving and if it was all covered in

  clothes you wouldn't be seeing it so I

  uploaded this video all about all these

  old pictures and what he did and we

  showed videos of a rah rah rah you can

  imagine and in the course of the video

  we showed lots of these pictures we

  animated some of them to make them into

  little movies mhm now the video has

  naked people in it you know we left a

  lot out that we thought was a little bit

  maybe a little bit confrontational we

  haven't got like you know things

  dangling in people's faces and it's not

  - you know I thought we were restrained

  yeah you left out the slo-mo pillow

  fight that he had filmed as well in the

  off hours yeah like that stuff wasn't in

  there was a lot of stuff that maybe

  could be construed as a bit risque but

  you know that we didn't use any of that

  it was just you know it was all pretty

  normal stuff but there were occasional

  glimpses of parts of the body here and

  there but it was I thought it was a wrap

  the YouTube's automatic system to its

  credit unless someone flagged it to its

  credit flags this is inappropriate

  I disagreed with that I appealed it

  asking for a manual review the manual

  review has been conducted and the manual

  review has come back saying no that's

  inappropriate so as it stands now the

  video is unavailable for monetization

  objectivity videos aren't massively

  watched so like this is not costing me

  an amount of money that concerns me but

  I am concerned about like the bigger

  issue not like you know I'm a campaigner

  I'm gonna change the world kind of way

  but I do think it speaks to a bigger

  issue about like art and showing things

  and what's right and what's wrong and

  what's suitable and not suitable you

  have watch the video have you or yeah no

  I watch the video alright tell me your

  thoughts well first of all I recommend

  everybody watch it cuz it was just

  interesting to see I didn't know the

  extra detail is about this work somehow

  assume that the horse thing was like

  one-off and seeing the animated early

  videos of human motion was really

  interesting I just genuinely liked it as

  an objectivity video thank you but I was

  watching this video and my perspective

  on it was you selected video like so

  when people hear you describe it right

  you listener like whatever is in your

  head when Brady just described the video

  I can guarantee you what's in your head

  is ten times more explicit than what is

  in the actual video imagine a man

  walking in a low-resolution image who's

  walking sideways across the camera with

  extraordinarily convenient leg placement

  95% of the time that's what's in the

  video the level of nudity for the parts

  that people care about is so trivial in

  this video now when you say it was

  flagged immediately that I'm not

  surprised because from talking to people

  who would know about these things

  my understanding is that if there is one

  thing that the army of artificial

  intelligence bots at YouTube are

  extraordinarily good at recognizing it's

  naked people know that this is a thing

  that the AIS have been trained on and

  they can spot very reliably very


  they have high-class Willie recognition

  exactly right and this is to YouTube's

  total credit like I have in my whole

  life I think never ever seen anything

  that remotely is pornography on the

  channel right like they are deadly

  serious and it's a relatively

  straightforward thing for the system to

  try to automatically flag as people

  without clothing so I'm not surprised it

  was caught instantly in the trap yeah

  but I really think this is a very

  interesting case that if this was

  manually reviewed by an actual human I'm

  gonna say I think this is kind of

  outrageous to be classified as a video

  that cannot be monetized I really think

  this is like if you had a video where

  you showed the Statue of David yeah

  there's something about this that really

  bothers me right where it's like artwork

  or anything of scientific value is so

  far on the one end of this extreme that

  is like if we can't agree that this is

  acceptable I feel like all hope is lost

  if this is not acceptable I feel like

  we've fallen into some kind of crazy

  land where you can never know who knows

  what's acceptable now I find it

  genuinely upsetting that this has been

  again if it was a human that this is the

  verdict that has come down on this okay

  just very quickly on that if it's not a

  human that's even worse because that

  they make it absolutely clear you have

  no right to appeal there's nothing that

  can be done about it the judge's

  decision is final so if I've been turned

  down by AI twice mm-hmm and no

  correspondence will be entered into then

  that is a little bit unfair but yeah we

  don't know we don't know if it's a human

  or not so we don't know I just say if

  it's a human because I have some very

  strong suspicions that at least some

  portion of those manual reviews are not

  actually going to a human that there's a

  bot that's doing the first pass and

  maybe it gets kicked up to a human maybe

  it doesn't I don't have anything to

  prove that but I just have a suspicion

  that maybe that's partly the case yeah

  anyway on the broader issue I'm the

  first to admit if you pardon the pun

  that I have skin in the game here so I


  from the start that okay I'm a bit

  biased but I also think it's a little

  unfair I will say I do recognize that

  Statue of David numerous famous

  paintings you could mention venus de

  milo all these things and not

  photographs they're artworks but i mean

  these things i was using a very old from

  the 1800s black-and-white grainy

  pictures that are really historically


  it was the pioneering images that led to

  cinema it was really scientifically

  significant work like this is like

  important stuff in art and science right

  it is in no way sexual or sexually

  suggestive and that's what the youtubes

  terms talk about they don't talk about

  nudity as much as things that are you

  know sexually suggestive these are in

  roadway sexual and in kind of my like

  amusement I went and had a look and

  Google's own YouTube channel for art and

  culture has numerous videos that show

  naked bits of art interesting they even

  have one where like it's popping up in

  front of a little kid and the little

  kids giggling although isn't that funny

  because you know the person's not

  wearing clothes and they have one way

  that they could person's on like an iPad

  screen and the kids like you know

  manipulating it to zoom in and look at

  it and things like that

  like on their own channel they're quite

  comfortable with nude art mm-hmm so I do

  know the difference between photos and

  art but if that's the defense which I

  don't know what the defense is because I

  haven't heard anything it doesn't wash

  with me and what do I have to do now

  should I have uploaded that video with

  big you know black boxes over the top

  supposed to do that kind of stuff drives

  me even more crazy that would make me

  look stupid

  that would make everyone look stupid and

  it makes everyone look stupid and it

  also falls again into my very strong

  feelings about this that like when you

  go crazy about the prohibition of a

  thing whatever that thing is is like

  guess what you're the one who's making

  it powerful or you're making it into a

  thing that it isn't and so that's why

  it's like if you start putting black

  bars over like as we're had

  this discussion I have on screen in

  front of me probably the most in quotes

  suggestive part which is a 135 where you

  have the three film strips of the man

  walking to the side the man walking

  front and the man walking back you have

  this blown up on a 27-inch screen that's

  two feet from my face at HD resolution

  right but of course I'm looking at a

  thing that's from the 1800s

  that's filmed at an angle there's not

  four pixels of detail in this image here

  to put a black bar over it is like a

  mockery it's like what are you hiding

  all that black bar is doing is like oh

  right this is the black bar of shame

  right because this is the thing that can

  never be seen putting black bars on it

  would sexualize err you don't get a

  picture of Michelangelo's David and you

  think that's a nice sculpture you put a

  big black bar over his private parts and

  suddenly it seems more sexual yeah it

  totally does there was a meme a few

  years ago which was fantastic where

  people were pixel izing parts of

  innocuous photos and it's amazing how

  sexually suggestive you can make a

  totally normal photo by very strategic

  pixelization of particular moments so

  the mean was you sure like the before

  and after like with the pixelization or

  without there's another meme which is

  about like seeing the nudity and it's it

  works surprisingly well were you take a

  photograph of a fully clothed person and

  you just put transparent circles on that

  photograph in strategic spots and it's

  so crazy but like your brain sort of

  fills in what the person looked like

  this kind of censorship I legitimately

  think makes it more of what it isn't it

  would be crazy for you to put black bars

  on this video it would 100% achieve the

  exact opposite purpose and make the very

  thing that isn't something into

  something so yeah it's so frustrating

  it's absolutely frustrating I'll just

  send you a tweet I did yesterday you

  know just as an another case in point I

  got a couple of famous cultural images

  yep perfect

  so Brady's just sent me his tweet with

  Leonardo da Vinci

  famous man in the circle right with the

  black bar a strategically placed and the

  Venus de Milo with a bar across her


  oh yeah unambiguously the bar makes the

  images worse than they are without the

  bar it's the thin end of a wedge isn't

  it in terms of culture and history and

  that when we start having to push this

  stuff aside because we want to cater to

  advertisers who they think might be

  sensitive I'd be surprised if any

  advertisers were sensitive about this

  video by the way because what they're

  going to do in the long run I mean

  they're not going to change me but in

  the long run people are going to stop

  making the videos about certain subjects

  because they can't monetize them and

  then those subjects just fade out of

  existence you know is there a whole

  generation in period in art history that

  is going to be disproportionately less

  covered on YouTube because people can't

  show the paintings yeah I mean we've

  sort of skirted around this issue a

  couple of times on the show but this is

  why I think it's always dangerous to get

  into the content filtering game yeah I

  feel like all platforms should stay as

  far away from this as they possibly can

  because it is the thin end of the wedge

  there's no winning even if you think

  you're doing the right thing is like

  this is a perfect case like would any

  advertiser in the world actually care

  about this no but I know for a fact that

  this kind of D monetization does have a

  chilling effect on the kinds of content

  that people produce for the platform

  we've said it before but I think YouTube

  and platforms like it are big enough

  that I don't think you can play the oh

  it's just a company card anymore I think

  at a certain point it becomes so vital

  for speech that this kind of stuff

  really matters and this objectivity

  video is just like a perfect example

  because you have everything going for

  you like it's historically significant

  it's barely visible is the most

  innocuous video imaginable and if this

  can't get through the filter like what

  hope is there for anything that is

  remotely near and interesting

  edge there's no hope at all for that

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  great you have been a school student and

  you also have been a school teacher tell

  me what comes into your head or your

  memories or how you feel or what you

  think when I say to you school photos or

  class photos what emotion does this

  bring out in you what do you mean like

  you know like in a yearbook

  well did you presumably when you're at

  school like once a year would you have a

  photo taken of the whole class that

  would go into like yeah a yearbook or

  and your parents could buy one and would

  they take a loved one one of you on your

  own as well each year school look here's

  CGP grey when he was in year 2 and here

  he is in year 3 here his class photos

  all through the years school photos I

  haven't thought about this in forever

  this is something that maybe in another

  five years would have totally passed out

  of my mind but yes I'm glad I saved it

  oh right these are some neural pathways

  left untouched for a very long period of

  time well they can be quite damaging

  memories too like maybe you have

  repressed memories thing the one kid in

  the class photo who like has his or her

  eyes shut that sticks with you for years

  I mean I'll take your word for it

  but none of my memories are surfacing

  that piece of information

  you obviously have good photo face I'm

  terrible at having my photo taken is

  that what we're going to have here is

  Brady therapy corner for your old school

  photos well maybe it is I don't know let

  me tell you what's got me thinking about

  this let me send you a photo okay

  unfortunately I can't share this with

  the collective because it's a it

  involves a whole bunch of people whose

  permission we don't have right but this

  is the class photo of my nephew so my

  sister sent it to me and said have a

  look at the cute class photo this is not

  how I remember class photos looking but

  you know we live in a new age now whoa

  what what what it no this is weird this

  is not a class photo what do you think

  of that okay let me just set the

  vacation so in my head need class photo



  is you shuffle everybody down to the gym

  yeah and you're sitting on the bleachers

  so there's some height difference

  between everybody yeah maybe there's

  like a little plaque in the front where

  someone has put the words on that says

  what this is a photo of yeah and that's

  where you take the picture Jones Smith

  high schoo year three yeah

  1987 yeah you want to be real fancy you

  go outside into the bleachers so there's

  trees in the background that's wow you

  had some nice ones right I went to a

  very posh school would us be like the

  whole year level it would be broken into

  classes in homeroom so it's like groups

  of 30 or were you like a group of like a

  hundred or something like my rusty

  memories are that it like in primary

  school it was just the class yeah and

  that in high school they shuffled

  everybody out onto the bleachers yeah

  the whole bunch think but I could be

  wrong about that so explain this one

  that I sent to you I think most people

  have that image in their head hopefully

  that we've always done insane this is my

  nephew this is the new generation of

  class photos how would you describe this

  one okay well just like with movies I

  know you want my opinion at first I'm

  gonna give this class photo a thumbs

  down it's really weird

  and what makes it weird is okay so

  instead of the kids sitting in the

  bleachers they are all standing in a

  line next to each other so that it's

  just all of the kids in a big row facing

  the camera facing the camera facing wide

  like a panorama shot isn't it yeah it's

  I give you were there with your iPhone

  you would need to put it into panorama

  mode to take this picture

  yeah the background is an empty void of

  nothing it's just a pure white

  background which makes me wonder like

  was that they roll out the like the

  green screen for this this photograph it

  kind of looks like it is a clothing

  catalog for the uniform that these kids

  are wearing yeah like if I didn't know

  any better I would almost assume this

  was an advertisement in a magazine

  that's like hey look at these uniforms

  for these kids the kids are they're not

  just standing in a line all looking at

  the camera they look very posed and it

  looked very posed like it's and magazine

  was like oh here's a kid and the kids on

  either side have who were taller had

  their hands on his shoulder right Simon

  got their arms crossed and some have got

  like sassy poses with a hand on their on

  their hips yes I'm looking at a couple

  of the girls have like the very standard

  photo pose of hands on hips like one

  knee a little bit forward

  it looks really strange I have this

  feeling like a like again a kind of meme

  that you see sometimes on the Internet

  is where if you look in a catalog

  someone will sometimes post these images

  where you can see that the person doing

  the Photoshop job has messed up and

  there's an extra hand where a hand

  shouldn't be because someone was

  photoshopped out of the scene right or

  there's like something's really weird

  that you don't notice at first and this

  photo feels like I wouldn't be surprised

  to learn this is actually a composite

  photo of a bunch of shots gray it

  totally is they were photographed as

  like in twos or threes right okay

  separately and then they were all put

  together afterwards into this big long

  line yeah there's one that has like it's

  like a seam yeah it looks strange it's

  the one mistake they made the rest of it

  was actually done pretty well but I'm a

  little bit mortified by this I have some

  feelings about it but tell me why are

  you mortified I know I'm like old

  fashioned right and we live in this

  digital age but there are a few things

  about doing class photos so digitally

  and I've seen this a lot lately class

  photos now are amazing they're like

  they're so different to what they used

  to be they're like portraits one of my

  other nephews I saw his class photos the

  other day and it was like a photo shoot

  from another world with all that lovely

  bakker and you know everything's all

  amazing and there's like these candid

  poses rhinorrhea one thing which was in

  my old high school yearbook like the

  photographer came to the school and did

  the did the photo shoots and said

  everybody looks the same yeah but one of

  the girls her father worked in the

  fashion industry and like she had a

  photo that stood out right as as

  noticeably different because it was just

  crazy professional I do is never being

  like I was that kid I don't think I

  would want this so when you say that

  they look different I can easily imagine

  what you're talking about I don't know

  if there was just of rites of passage

  thing about class photos that I don't

  know it felt like it gave me life

  lessons and it was character building

  and I feel like that's all been taken

  away for example in the old days of

  photos when they didn't have you know

  digital cameras and we all lined up and

  had our individual photos taken it was

  like your one charts that would go bang

  and then you wouldn't say anything think

  weeks and six weeks later you'd be given

  like these envelopes to take home for

  your parents where they would say do you

  want to buy some of these I'm the kid

  and like if your eyes were shut or you'd

  go to prom or something like you'd blown

  your chance I had one chance and like

  you didn't know if you'd done it or not

  and that teaches you a lot about life

  like surreptitiously because laughs like

  that sometimes you know you had your one

  chance and don't blow it kid

  that's the lesson you should learn in

  life it's kind of like but now it's like

  let's take a thousand until we get it

  perfect and and it's the same with the

  class photo you know be having someone

  who has their eyes share in the photo I

  mean that doesn't happen now because

  they do them all separately that's why

  they're doing this so that no kid is

  gonna have a stinker because if you put

  twenty kids in a line you have to take a

  thousand photos until you get the one

  you need but here you're taking away

  that problem by just doing them in pairs

  making sure everyone's eyes are open and

  things like that and like so it's just

  taking away that kind of randomness and

  it's also taking away like the

  camaraderie of a class photo it was the

  one time you're all together and you be

  all lined up by height and you'd learn

  how tall you all were in relation to

  each other and you'd secretly be hoping

  that you'd end up in the photo somewhere

  close to like the girl you had a crush

  on or something and there's so much

  going on in the class photo and it was

  just all character building stuff and

  then you try to get bunny ears on the

  kid who's in front of you yeah and then

  you get to take a funny one at the end

  if you're like in the older kids like

  it's your final year school you'd say

  can we do a funny one where you all do a

  crazy pose and they'll take one of those

  and also like I don't know if it was

  just made me or not I've told people

  about this and they say it is just me

  but I never knew what day the school

  photos were gonna be and you just turn

  up one day and like the photograph

  company is there having taken over the

  gymnasium or something and it's like I'm

  a goodness at school photo day you know

  what a surprise and it's a big part of

  most memories of school and these photos

  become a big part of your life and you

  know you look back at your old school

  photos occasionally so I don't know this

  is a case where I think the digital path

  is getting rid of some problems but it's

  also taking away a lot of charm and a

  lot of character building and a lot of I

  don't know maybe I'm just overly

  sentimental I mean look I'm very happy

  to be the first one in the pylon of

  Brady is too sentimental I got my front

  row ticket to that party but like I am

  totally with you on this school

  photo thing great auks oh sorry one

  other point I didn't make it also like

  is instilling in a really interesting

  lesson about fakery because this photo

  is designed to look like they're all

  together at once these kids know they

  weren't riously because that incident

  never happened that's a moment in

  history that never happened that they've

  all now got as a keepsake for all time

  and it's just instilling at an early age

  that nothing is real yeah I mean maybe

  to be devil's advocate for a moment

  that's the most important lesson that

  you can teach children these days kids

  you live in a world where you can trust

  nothing that you see yeah okay they did

  the reverse is also true

  it also instills early on that nothing

  has to be real we'll fix it all in the

  Edit everything can be fixed in the Edit

  we'll fix it all in the edit but I don't

  like it because I said if you were going

  to take a picture of this with your

  iPhone you need to take it like a

  panorama but the thing that's that's

  weird isn't like in a panorama everybody

  would be at a different angle all right

  like you would be rotating the camera

  and so not all of the kids would be the

  exact same distance from the camera and

  in this photo it's like oh right of

  course all of these kids are looking

  straight ahead into a camera but there's

  a line of 20 of them side by side so

  there is no place you could put the

  camera to actually get this photo the

  way it looks with all of them standing

  in a straight line except a mile away

  with a telephoto zoom at an infinite

  distance you could capture this

  photograph right and since it seems like

  they're standing in a Euclidean fantasy

  land right where there's just infinite

  nothing in all direction maybe that's

  where this photograph was actually taken

  but this is a case where psych I'm all

  fine with digital stuff but if you're

  doing the digital stuff it has to look

  right this just looks terrible my big

  vote for why were school photograph days

  great is not for lessons learned or any

  of that sentimentality stuff my

  perspective on it was just oh thank god

  it's a day that's different

  it's a different day at the school we're

  not going through the same routine you

  would hope that it would land

  someday with the extra boring classes

  that you don't like and I feel like poor

  kids the school routine it's you know

  it's the same thing day in day out and

  any chance you can get to like go

  outside and sit in the bleachers that's

  way better whereas I can already see

  that from a school perspective they sure

  would love this because it can also be

  much less disruptive right you can just

  catch some kids whenever they're

  available you don't necessarily have to

  mess up the whole schedule take them out

  two or three at a time yeah this modern

  world Brady you know can I tell you one

  of my journalistic war stories that just

  came into my head please please do so

  back in the newspaper days when

  photoshopping was like a high-tech like

  normal people couldn't do it this was

  many many moons ago like analogue

  photoshopping is that the kind of stuff

  word document I don't know what we're

  exactly the technology was at but sort

  of certainly this story will give you an

  idea where the technology was at because

  my beat was covering like the City

  Council and I'd done it for a while and

  I had really good context and I was a

  really good mischief maker my favorite

  stories weren't like you know the

  important stuff that was being done in

  the council it was like making mischief

  as my specialty mm-hm and I knew the

  council was having like their official

  portrait taken this was the 20 members

  of the City Council whoever they the

  elected members I can't remember how

  many there were and they were having

  their equivalent of a class photo done

  and they were wearing all the official

  regalia all the formal robes of the City

  Council and the traditional stuff and it

  was being done in the council chamber

  which is a lovely ornate room where they

  would have their meetings but the doors

  were locked and I wasn't allowed in

  which made me suspicious but anyway I

  wandered by and I looked through the

  keyhole at one point and I saw them all

  in their robes and getting ready and

  standing in lions to have their photo

  taken they were doing it the

  old-fashioned way with you know short

  people at the front tall people in the

  second row mm-hm and one of like the

  council officials like one of like the

  PR people who was not a councillor he

  was just like a lackey a staff member

  was wearing all the regalia and the

  robes and I was so confused but an

  unlearning oven and then the next day I

  was talking to one of the other

  counselors and I said I was looking

  through the keyhole and I saw what's his

  chops wearing the robes what the heck

  was that all about and she said oh look

  I'm not supposed to tell you but I will

  because there were such gossips

  so and so the counselor couldn't be

  there because he was sick so they got

  this person to stand in the photo and

  then they used modern technology to put

  that person's head on the photo mm-hmm

  and I was like no way

  so like a couple of days later when the

  official photo got released to the press

  you know here's the council photo which

  is something we'd normally would have

  just ignored cuz who cares

  mm-hmm either cold the council and ask

  for an official statement about whether

  councillor Jones or whatever who's in

  the photo it was that really him so they

  had to like fess up that it wasn't and

  that was such an unusual thing to happen

  and it was considered like so scandalous

  that it became it was like page 3 or

  page 5 or the paper or something one of

  these counselors is not really there

  it's a you know it's a pretend photo it

  wasn't like a scandal like the count you

  know people should be sacked but it was

  like funny and embarrassing for them and

  it was a big thing yeah but now you

  think nothing of it you know school

  photos are Photoshop but back then

  having like someone's head put onto

  another body for the official portrait

  you know what I still think that's wrong

  to this day look at you Brady rustling

  up trouble where there's no trouble at

  all trying to kick up a scandal for some

  poor guy probably staying at home

  because he's sick no I took this day I

  think it's wrong when you go through the

  holes of City Council and you look at

  all those portraits over the year the

  photos of all the previous councils

  knowing that photos not a real photo and

  they all weren't there in one place it's

  wrong it's wrong it's not a document of

  a moment they were all together that's

  what bothers me photographs are

  sometimes documents of amazing times in

  history when you know you look at those

  photos where like you see all these

  famous scientists in one photo like

  Einstein and Niels Bohr and yeah and I

  know the exactly what you're thinking of

  yeah it leaps right to my head yeah

  imagine if you found out actually two of

  those people weren't there and they just

  put their heads on later the thing

  that's special about that photo is they

  were all in one place at one time yeah

  and it's the same with a school photo

  this thing about a school photo is they

  were all there if you were sick on

  school photo day back in my day you

  weren't in the school photo absent you

  know tuflow jones you've been erased

  from history and again that's a life

  lesson if you're not there you're not

  there but these days there's no lesson

  like that these days if you're not there

  we'll just put you there later

  that's not how life works but maybe it

  is Brady its how it works now gray it's

  plane crash corner time it'll be a quick

  one there's just been so much happening

  this car is bursting at the seams I feel

  like you're already contradicting

  yourself you're pretty you're like oh

  we're good we're gonna do a quick plane

  crash corner and then you're coming up

  to me with all of these model airplanes

  in your hand I've got so many I want to

  talk about it's a promise it's gonna be

  really quick hey you're the one slowing

  it down you're complaining about how

  long plane crash corner is just making

  it longer it's all my fault it's all my

  fault do you have any superstitions when

  you get on a plane okay so a while back

  I found myself unintentionally

  developing a superstition for getting on

  the plane yep I don't know how it

  started I don't know what it was but it

  was a behavior that I became aware of

  which is I have this tungsten wedding

  ring on my hand and yeah when I was a

  teacher I used to like tap it on things

  sometimes for like a point of emphasis

  in a classroom and I tend to just like

  tap it on stuff because it makes a

  pleasing sound and at some point I got

  into the habit of just as you're

  stepping on the plane as you're leaving

  the gangway of tapping the ring on the

  outside of the plane on the physical

  surface of it yeah and it became a

  superstition and I was doing it a bunch

  but not really realizing it and at some

  point I became aware of this as a

  conscious behavior and I have since

  banished this this is what superstitions

  are right there's some part of your

  brain that's not really thinking things

  through I did have a brief period of

  time where it's like as I'm walking into

  the plane and like you're not gonna tap

  you ring on the surface of the plane

  it's fine nothing's going to happen you

  know nothing's gonna happen don't let

  yourself fall into the category of

  building up this habit over time so I

  sort of did but I I have since gotten

  rid of it well grey I have a

  superstition when I get on planes okay

  and it's the exact same thing I've never

  gotten on or off a plane without

  touching the outside fuselage of the


  really I do it every time just

  my hand I just have to touch it I just

  have to have touched the outside of the

  plane for the first time ever when I got

  on a plane about a week ago one of the

  air stewards noticed that I did it as I

  was getting on I'd touch the outside of

  the plane friendly enough she said oh

  you can touch me instead if you like

  which now I think about it sounds kind

  of weird but it wasn't for that's not

  advertiser friendly at all she didn't

  mean it like that but when I as I said

  laughs I realized I sound a weird but

  she was just being my friendly but if we

  bleep out what she said it'll sound way

  better right that is that how that works

  right we'll take that we'll put a bleep

  over it then it'll be just fine

  oh yeah touch beep instead I feel like

  maybe this is a more common one it's it

  seems unlikely that you and I have both

  engaged in the exact same behavior that

  the fact that that is the thing that we

  think that going in and out of a plane a

  lot of people are touching the edge like

  I particularly don't want to do plane

  crash corner right now because I'm

  getting on a plane tomorrow right it's

  like goddammit but when I am getting on

  the plane tomorrow I'm gonna be paying

  attention and see if anyone on the line

  in front of me touches the plane on the

  way well I've learned my lesson and I'm

  not gonna say tweet me if you touch the

  outside of planes for anyway a lot of

  cultures have superstitions that involve

  coins but in particular the Chinese do

  apparently and there's a story I read a

  few months ago but the exact same thing

  happened a few days ago so it's happened

  twice now where Chinese passengers as

  they've been walking along the tarmac to

  get on the planes for luck have thrown

  coins into the engine of the plane Jesus

  Christ and then this has been spotted

  and obviously then they've had to pull

  the engine apart get the coins out

  there's a link in the notes video look

  at I've got it open right in front of me

  a superstitious passenger delayed a

  flight from Shanghai for several hours

  on Tuesday after throwing coins at the

  plane's engine for good luck they're

  usually elderly women that do it

  like imagine if it didn't get spotted

  there's so many different aspects of

  this when you say imagine if it didn't

  get spotted

  I would hope to god that a jet engine

  could chew up a penny and spit it out

  but now there's the niggling thought

  that it couldn't that there is a nonzero

  possibility that if it hits in just the

  right way especially as the engine is

  starting up and not at full chewing

  through stuff capacity that there's some

  damage that could be done so great great

  let me put let me put this to you great

  if you are getting on a plane and you

  thought in the corner of your eye but

  you weren't totally sure you saw an old

  Chinese lady throwing coins in the

  direction of the engine you don't know

  is that what she was doing did she

  actually get it near the engine what

  happen I don't know what would you then

  tell some people as you got on the plane

  I think maybe that person threw coins at

  the end really or would you just keep

  still before you can even get to the end

  of this question before you can even

  pose the question I've already added to

  my mental pre-flight checklist keep an

  eye on the old Chinese ladies it's

  already now going to be part of my plane

  boarding routine to be looking around as

  like hmm okay

  terrorists Marist like who knows anyone

  could be a terrorist you can't pick them

  out like an old Chinese lady who has

  something in her hand I can have my eye

  on you lady right isn't that racial

  profiling yeah yeah this tough luck

  right but if if apparently this is like

  a thing where old Chinese ladies throw

  coins into engines for luck it's racial

  profiling and life-saving

  it does seem to have become a trend so

  keep your eyes out babe oh man I didn't

  know you were flying tomorrow great I'm

  sorry to be throwing a few of these

  things babies another what I wanted to

  ask you about if you look on the next

  link there was a recent case as an Air

  France plane flying across the Atlantic

  a380 the big news superjumbo something

  went wrong with the engine it kind of

  blew itself apart a bit mid-flight it

  then landed and everything was okay

  the thing is they've been a bunch of

  pictures they're a bunch of pictures on

  Twitter and in the press that people

  took out the window of the blown-up

  engine like you know that badly damaged

  engine while the plane was still flying

  my question is if you are on a plane and

  something happened to the engine but the

  plane was still flying and the captain

  just camera said I'll we've lost one of

  the engines but it's gonna go on land

  now for safety

  would you take photos of it would you

  get your phone out and think oh well and

  take a bunch of photos of the damaged

  engine on the plane that you're

  currently flying in okay now this is a

  very particular situation because I

  generally don't like window seats I

  especially don't like window seats where

  I have a view of anything mechanical out

  the window hmm

  because I will find myself just looking

  like looking at the wing and looking at

  those little flaps that come up looking

  at the mechanical pieces that are

  underneath and if it's a stormy night

  you're looking at the gremlin who flies

  on and off the wing repeatedly as the

  plane goes on so I specifically try to

  avoid seats that are the windows or that

  have a view of the wing I do not like it

  but if for some reason I was in one of

  those seats yeah and something happened

  because I host a podcast with a co-host

  who is obsessed with plane crash corner

  I don't see how I could not take a photo

  I feel like if I was in that situation

  you would berate me for the rest of the

  time that we knew each other for not

  taking a photograph of that engine so so

  the answer is yes I would feel compelled

  because of the situation that I am in

  but if I which is like a regular citizen

  I'm not sure it would occur to me like

  looking at the pictures that you're

  showing you like this is an engine that

  looked pretty badly damaged it's not

  like a minor thing I somehow expect that

  I would in that moment it just would not

  occur to me to take a photo of the

  engine that's my guess as I mentioned

  many times the plane crash corner you

  know every time I fly now I get to know

  that if the plane does go down you know

  I'm gonna be thinking about Brady and

  plane crash corner in my final moments

  on this earth so thank you that means I

  will have some kind of responsibility to

  document them perhaps tweet them in my

  final moments on the plane going down so

  yeah I would be taking pictures would

  you be taking pictures Brady I probably

  would take a picture yeah but I can

  understand someone who wouldn't

  not because it wouldn't occur to them

  I'm amazed that it wouldn't occur to you

  but I can see how someone might feel

  like it's inappropriate like now is not

  the time to be taking pictures when like

  you know lives could be at stake sort of

  thing only to say that it might not

  occur to me simply because in in those

  kind of situations like people can have

  unexpected behavior that's why it's it's

  like I think it might not cross my mind

  but I would fully expect Brady to be

  taking pictures possibly selfies where

  you're pointing out the window at the

  engine that's the kind of picture that I

  want from you if you ever you're on a

  plane in the engine gets all busted up

  interestingly the debris from that

  engine was found very quickly afterwards

  in the barren wastelands of Greenland

  they found it really quickly like some

  of the parts that fell off the engine

  mm-hmm and yet they have finally totally

  yet again abandoned the search for this

  Malaysian Airlines entire plane that

  went missing mh370 they went missing

  around the time hello internet first

  started that I was sure would be found

  within two or three episodes that gave

  birth to plane crash corner I suspect

  yeah it probably did but I feel like

  this is the Voyager probe reaches the

  edge of the solar system story like

  haven't we given up the search for this

  flight several times now you're right it

  has happened several times and just to

  keep it going and quickly the point I

  wanted to raise because this is the

  latest development because since the

  Australian search party officially

  abandoned the search which upsets some

  people in Malaysia because there's so

  many Malaysian people on the planet

  right a few other companies have stepped

  in and offered to do it privately the

  most interesting being this company

  called ocean infinity I believe which

  have offered to search for the debris

  somewhere in the Indian Ocean far far

  off the west of Australia for free

  unless they find it in which case they

  would get a finder's fee

  I kind of like a no-win no-fee type blue

  search for a plane that went missing and

  I wonder what you thought of that

  proposal I feel like I need to see the

  economics of that it's it sounds like an

  incredibly expensive thing to do hmm I

  would certainly want to get the money

  from the Malaysian government in escrow

  before moving it like you know I'm not

  exactly sure how would be trusting

  Malaysia to like a pony

  up the millions of dollars necessary if

  this happens there's something kind of

  macabre about kind of a you know no-win

  no-fee type situation around like you

  know a tragedy and a loss of so many

  lives and this thing that's sort of

  there's just something that felt a bit

  weird about it

  when I first heard it that made me think

  is this right like is this what we've

  come to do you think they should be

  searching out of honour or human

  responsibility or some other junk like

  that in my opinion that is what they

  have been doing for the last few years I

  mean I've been tirelessly searching the

  ocean floor spending a fortune as it is

  that has been happening and now that

  finally they've said look this is

  getting ridiculous enough Sanath does

  that mean it's time to bring in like you

  know the Cowboys I don't know maybe it

  is and maybe that's how it will get

  found you know the Titanic was found

  like that wasn't it admittedly a long

  time afterwards but by private

  enterprise but something about it just

  felt a little bit just a bit uneasy with

  me but maybe it's just me being queasy I

  think it's you wanting people to do

  things just to do them yeah I feel like

  as soon as the money gets involved

  you're crossing your arms and go hmm I

  don't know about this Malaysian airline

  hunt stroke SpaceX right well maybe

  that's it though I feel that maybe

  there's a bit of emotional blackmail

  here cuz the families of the people who

  are on that plane are most strongly the

  people who wanted to be found with very

  good reason who finally the government's

  and the officialdom have sort of given

  up and said look we just can't find it

  mm-hmm but now these other people have

  come in seen like an opportunity and

  they can leverage sort of the emotional

  pressure of these people who are saying

  no no we need it found to say to the

  government hey come and you know it's

  not going to cost you anything unless we

  find it you've got all these upset

  people and all the upset people are

  saying yes yes get them to do it we want

  it found I feel that it's a bit it's a

  little bit blackmailing maybe yeah maybe

  I feel like I'm okay with it the

  Malaysian government doesn't have to

  take them up on it yeah I guess if they

  get the job done then they've succeeded

  where others have failed so see what

  happens I'm sure we'll still be talking

  this long long into the future which

  happens first does Malaysian Airlines

  wreckage get found or does the podcast

  come to an end or is the discovery of

  the wreckage like the trigger point for

  the end of the podcast like maybe that's


  the ocean infinity other people who will

  bring us to an end like we no longer

  have a reason to exist

  yes because plane crash corner is the

  beating heart of hello Internet hello

  Internet its future gray here who took

  the plane trip and hasn't died well yet

  anyway but I did take a photograph of

  the engine while I was in the air that

  seems like the kind of thing that could

  become a bit obsessive maybe a bit like

  a superstition that I'd have to take a

  photograph of the airplane engine every

  single time man if I started getting a

  lot of those I would need some place

  that I could show them off on the

  Internet where could I go to make an

  amazing portfolio website that I could

  show on the internet I know where I

  could go I know where you could go its

  Squarespace Squarespace is the best

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  let's move to lighter subjects because

  this is on facilities plane-crash

  corners a bit heavy going let's talk

  about death yes death the latest of

  topics so gray your most recent video

  uploaded is about death I think it's

  about life Brady about life it's about

  life and death basically you're saying

  come on man

  we should all live forever let's get our

  act together and do this yeah kind of do

  you know what can I just say for at

  least six months now like I've got like

  a list of questions in my head of things

  I would ask you if we have a relative

  things to talk about okay and there's

  about five or six of them and one of

  them has been for a long time do you

  ever worry that the key to eternal life

  like you know immortality will be

  discovered just after you die and the

  reason that questions been in my head

  for a long time to ask you is cuz I feel

  there was something about you that has

  like a interesting preoccupation with

  death and living forever obviously

  everyone has feelings about death but

  like you have in this interesting way

  that I think has been made more public

  now by your last video I'm not curious

  can you do you have any particular

  reason that you feel that way cuz I go I

  find that sort of surprising I think

  it's just kind of something I had taken

  on by like osmosis just from lots of

  little things it's not like you talk

  about it all the time but just the times

  it's come on I don't know but I'm not

  making it up it is a question that I've

  wanted to ask you for a long time

  because I I've always thought it is

  something that concerns you I think the

  thing that you're picking like when you

  say by osmosis you might be onto

  something there because I've been very

  hesitant to do a video like this for a

  long time like this has been on my topic

  list for forever but I've always been

  very hesitant to do it because at least

  in my personal experience talking with

  people is a topic that gets a lot of

  pushback in interesting ways and often

  quite frankly in ways that I don't

  really understand so yeah it's been up

  my list for a while but I think what you

  might be picking up on osmosis is the

  thing that I've never really wanted to


  out loud and that may bleed through in

  our conversations of death is the

  reverse of what you're probably thinking

  it's not that I actually have some kind

  of focus on death it's that in the back

  of my mind I feel like I have it like

  there's a nonzero chance that I might

  not die in what is a normal human time

  frame but I kind of never wanted to say

  it out loud

  or talk about it on the podcast or do a

  video about it because it feels like

  jinxing it it's almost like a

  superstition it's not touching the

  outside of the plane yeah exactly that

  is 100% what it's like and so I think

  maybe that's what comes across on the

  podcast sometimes when we talk about

  death is I have this little spark in the

  back of my mind which is actually the

  exact reverse it's not that I have a

  worry or a preoccupation with my own

  death I'm actually very indifferent to

  my own death because my feeling is just

  like well when you're dead you know you

  don't care it doesn't matter it's not a

  big deal but I do have a feeling that

  there may be a nonzero chance that I may

  have a longer than normal human life

  span as in oh people of your generation

  not just like I think I might be part

  Elvis no that's not what it is let me

  back up for a second here and say that I

  do think that radical life extension

  technology is a thing that can exist in

  our universe I don't think there is any

  technical reason that this is not

  possible to build as opposed to

  something like sort of like the Star

  Trek transporter which is like

  essentially a magic piece of technology

  that you know we may live in a universe

  where nothing like a transporter is ever

  built and it's not really feasible to

  build something like a transporter but I

  don't feel that way about life extension

  because my my view of it is that this is

  a biological and a physical process and

  it is a biological and physical process

  that I think that we will be able to

  intervene in in some way at some point

  in the future and then yes I think that

  that then raises a very interesting idea

  that there does come a moment where

  there may end up being a divide where

  there's like the last generation to die

  and the first generation that lives

  unusually long lives I mean in your

  video great you you sort of showed it

  graphically quite nicely you sort of

  drew that divide and showed like a whole

  bunch of people falling off one side of

  the ravine and the other people the

  other side that was almost you making

  manifest what I thought maybe was

  something that's set in your head that

  fear of being the last little stick man

  who's the wrong side of that divide yeah

  because as soon as you put that idea out

  there that does create that fear there

  is gonna be one man or woman who's the

  last person to die before you know

  obviously there'll be some blurring but

  you know what yeah yeah there is gonna

  be this like this unlucky generation and

  gosh who wants to be in that unlucky

  generator okay so this is interesting

  let me just let me just clarify

  something here because do you agree like

  with this proposition at all like do you

  think this is a thing that is

  technically possible to do you know me

  like I'm a devil's advocate and I'll

  argue against anything but I find that

  one hard to argue against okay black hmm

  if we can like make atom bombs we can

  just one-by-one check off the list of

  all the things that are causing us to

  age and die I can't see like an

  imperative in the universe that makes us

  die like I don't think we could you know

  there are some things in the universe I

  think maybe we can't stop like you know

  we probably can't speed up light right

  or change like the fundamental constants

  we can't change Pi or the gravitational

  constant yeah but I do feel that we can

  tinker with our own machinery and if we

  can tinker with our own machinery then

  yeah we probably can dramatically change

  it that's really interesting for me to

  hear I was really unsure about where

  where you would fall on this and again

  it is partly because I'm very surprised

  in personal conversations that it's like

  even talking about this subject with

  almost everybody puts me quickly into

  kooky category which is also why I was

  like a little bit hesitant to do a video

  on this topic for a while is it's like

  there's something about this that feels

  very different than the topic of like

  free will where people can simply

  disagree that you're crazy comes out way

  faster on this topic then on other

  topics of crazies the word I would use

  but there is a certain stigma attached

  to people who want to live forever or

  live for a long time yeah

  that it's not always craziness it's like

  a certain kind of like a bit of a knob

  yeah another word that comes up very

  quickly is like arrogance yeah so when I

  watched your video I actually made a

  little tweet and I was I guess I was

  being a bit uncharitable to you and like

  taking the Mickey oven but I just

  tweeted it cuz it reminded me there's a

  scene in the UK office where the the

  boss of the office this guy called David

  Brin is talking about like his attitude

  to life and philosophies to life and

  then one of the things he says you know

  he says there's an old saying live hard

  and die young and then he just suddenly

  turned serious and goes I don't want to

  die young I want to die old I want to be

  really old and one of David Brent's like

  characteristics is that he wants to live

  for a really really long time I don't

  remember that in his personality in the

  show huh and I think one of the reasons

  they gave him that characteristic is

  because it's a bit of an arrogant Nobby

  characteristic okay yeah I can see also

  I think also maybe it's a bit like it

  could be considered quite a selfish

  attitude mmm-hmm because that people who

  say that rarely talked about wanting

  everyone to live a long time they

  usually just talk about how they live a

  long time you know what if all the

  people around you died what would you do

  he'd be like no I'd still want to live a

  long time so there is a certain stigma

  attached to people who wade into this

  territory and maybe that's also way like

  some of your reluctance was coming from

  there could be it don't get me wrong if

  for some reason I could only accept

  personal immortality I would accept that

  at the drop of a hat

  if I keep my eye out for any passing

  vampires it's like it's not a likable

  quality to want to be immortal is one of

  these funny things where I've been well

  I've been working on this this is like

  an incredible rush job scripts for

  various reasons that are not interesting

  for the podcast but while I've been

  working on this it's like every movie I

  have watched

  the villain is obsessed with the idea

  about living forever yes seeing this

  everywhere and it's like all of the

  villains like this is this is a primary

  characteristic and all of the heroes are

  arguing for humanity Indiana Jones and

  the Last Crusade yeah it's all about

  like people being brought unstitched by

  their greed for eternal life exactly and

  I think that there's also something

  about the idea of feeling like it's

  generous to pass on the world to the

  next generation and said like suddenly

  you're arguing against sharing I think

  in a way when you start talking about

  this kind of stuff so it's just an

  interesting topic and like I said it's a

  thing I've been hesitant about and it's

  it's also a thing like I can see in the

  in the numbers like on all the

  spreadsheets of the videos that I record

  that it's like this is a video that has

  the most push back since interestingly

  the reddit video which still holds the

  record for like most pushback of any

  video I stopped well though it's done

  good viewing figures hasn't yeah though

  the viewing figures are good but if you

  like looking at the like dislike ratio

  it's the second worst compared to the

  reddit video which is the worst do you

  think maybe also it's because a

  different kind of video you made I feel

  like your videos have been changing in

  tone a little bit lately anyway he like

  taken on the average it felt like the

  video was it was more of like an opinion

  pace there is a thing here that's like

  an opinion that I want to change in

  people's minds and I'll be very upfront

  about it I don't think I was successful

  in it in the video I think people should

  look at death in the same way that we

  look at other diseases I think people

  should look at aging in the same way

  that we look at other disease that you

  didn't couch it that way did you like I

  think if you'd Center it on Aging rather

  than death it wouldn't have been as like

  clickable and as like exciting to have

  seen that title in my sub box but I

  would have understood the point you are

  making better that aging is a disease

  because death isn't a disease death is

  like a consequence of numerous things

  one of which is diseases another one is

  jumping in front of a bus another one is

  having Wars like death is a consequence

  and so framing it around death made it

  like a more enticing Pig but I think

  maybe that detracted from your argument

  of it yeah well it's an interesting

  thing like I can see it in the

  in the comments we're like these these

  arguments are people talk about like

  well the universe is going to come to an

  end eventually so we're all going to die

  so you can never defeat death it's like

  well take that like oh yeah that's true

  but if I live a billion years like I'm

  still gonna consider it a win like you

  get hit by a bus like you're still like

  it's you know there's going to be

  accidents and things I'm imagining six

  billion years old CGP grey making video

  saying we've got to stop this universe

  ending thing now yeah well I mean you

  know there's the multiverse people maybe

  we can punch through but you know that's

  a problem for Way future grey so I don't

  know how much people care that much but

  like the details behind the scenes are

  just that's like kurz cos that convinced

  me at the real eleventh hour to do a

  video on this topic because he was doing

  a video on death and aging as well and

  there's a follow-up that's that's coming

  out where he's talking about some of the

  technology of this stuff which may or

  may not be out by the time the podcast

  is out and it was really a case that

  like when we get together this is a

  topic that we we talk about a bunch and

  he wanted us to do it as a like we're

  both planting a flag here on this topic

  and in a way going to come out on a

  topic that I know people will regard as

  kooky like on a topic that I know will

  get a bunch of pushback and I totally

  wouldn't have done it if it wasn't for

  him but it also added in some

  constraints just that it was produced

  under a shorter period of time and I

  also didn't really want to talk about

  the stuff that he was talking about in

  his video yeah so he talks about aging

  very directly so I was trying not to

  talk about heejung so directly but for

  people who care about the details those

  are some of the details but I could see

  like I think I'm missing the mark with

  this in the thing that I want to change

  in people's minds if you feel like you

  missed the mark with her like you know

  slightly why you still happy with it

  like what's the thing you looked at and

  thought yeah it's alright I'm least I'm

  glad to say out there so I'm glad it's

  out there because I have gotten messages

  and I've seen comments from people who

  have changed their mind on the topic

  right what I would really want is

  something like I think some of the

  videos on voting that I've done which I

  feel like are real like lock slam Bach

  cases against this right that but this

  topic isn't like that because there's no

  arrows and pause

  ability theorem about death where you

  can just talk through the mathematics of

  a thing and it's sort of indisputable

  that's why like this is kind of an

  opinion piece because there are cultural

  arguments around the end of life that

  are not resolvable through facts such as

  what's just an example I think the

  question of like passing on the world to

  a next generation you can't get a

  correct answer on that in terms of math

  there's no way to show definitively that

  it is better to or better not to do this

  so like I have the feeling that I think

  we should push for technology to extend

  human life and I think we should push

  for it

  very hard because my opinion is that

  death is a kind of horrific degenerative

  disease and this is tremendous amount of

  suffering that we can avoid right and

  and like continued generations of this

  suffering I think is is really bad and I

  think there's a kind of cultural

  blindness to the suffering of senescence

  over time part of the reason why I

  really wish that it was like a perfect

  slam-dunk case because I want to change

  more people's minds on this because

  really it's not just about changing

  people's minds it's about changing their

  right minds hmm I really want anybody

  who is in medical school and thinking of

  going into medical research I want those

  people to be aware if they're thinking

  of suffering in the world that aging is

  on the board like it's a thing to

  consider about what is the suffering

  that's in the world right or if

  someone's like a very wealthy person

  who's looking to fund new projects like

  this is a project that has the potential

  to reduce a tremendous amount of

  suffering so it's partly how I was

  convinced to do the video at the last

  minute under constraints that I might

  normally not do it because it was

  presented to me and in terms of like

  opportunity costs way like what if the

  very person who could come up with this

  technology would have been convinced by

  your video at the right

  and you didn't make it and then you

  found yourself on the wrong side of this

  cliff like okay well you know what

  now you presented me with this Pascal's

  wager that I can't get out of my head

  I'm going to make this thing and I'm

  going to upload it and it's going to

  happen so rather than feeding lots and

  lots and lots of viewers some fish you

  just want to teach the right person to

  be a fisherman yes if three of the right

  minds are turned even slightly on this

  topic I will consider that an incredible

  success especially if it affects me

  directly yes if you get to live forever

  because of that video I think we'll all

  thank you gray I won't even take any of

  the credit for no good because we'd be

  hearing better for a long time if you

  did you would be doing about it for a

  long time but like I think going back to

  your very opening discussion about this

  is I feel like I was born at a really

  fortunate time maybe everybody feels

  this way I don't know but I feel like

  I'm I've always been really glad to be

  born when I was like I was just old

  enough to know a world that didn't

  really have computers and technology in

  the way that it exists now and I got to

  see all of that come online and I feel

  like I have a better understanding of

  this stuff because of that in a way that

  I was always shocked that like my

  students who grew up with technology

  seem to just know nothing or have no

  appreciation for it I always found that

  really interesting and counter to the

  predictions that the younger generation

  would be amazing with technology because

  they had grown up with it's like that

  turned out to totally not be the case

  they're amazing at Facebook but that's a

  very different sort of thing

  there's a few things that are like that

  I feel like I was born it like just

  there like I graduated from college at

  just the right time like I sort of

  missed economic down swings and then I

  got into the workforce and I was

  fortunate to be just at the right age

  and at the right time when YouTube came

  around and be able to make a transition

  you know it's like three years too early

  or too late and you know maybe my life

  is very different in these different

  ways yeah you've avoided some bad walls

  so far yeah exactly it's it's so I feel

  very appreciative of this like you're

  just in a general way and there is one

  final thing that I'm aware of that there

  is is this idea about following a bunch

  of Technology developments that are

  around life extension

  just wondering like I have been thinking

  about this ever since the human genome

  project I think it concluded in 2003 I

  think and like the human genome project

  the first time the human genome was ever

  sequenced like all the letters of

  someone's genome were read it took

  something like 10 years and a billion

  dollars to do and people who know me in

  real life over decades know that this is

  a thing I have always talked about that

  it's fascinating to watch that price and

  time go down until now we're at the

  point where it's like a couple hundred

  bucks and a couple of weeks 20 years

  later to get your genome sequenced it's

  a thing you can just do in the mail and

  I look at that kind of curve and I feel

  like it's similar to the computer curves

  and I think well genome technology is

  one of these things that you need to

  have on board in order to do life

  extension and just recently there's been

  developments in gene editing like things

  like CRISPR coming online so now being

  able to change genetic material on the

  fly is becoming a much cheaper much more

  possible thing for a while been really

  interested in like when the first gene

  therapies became commercially viable

  like that stuff is amazing you're like

  you're injecting and changing DNA and

  living people it's crazy that it's even

  possible and so I just I feel like over

  the course of my life there have been

  roads that are slowly converging towards

  this direction but it does have that

  question of how fast did they converge

  do they converge fast enough or not gray

  you were talking before almost like sort

  of the people you were hoping would hear

  you would be like future medical

  researchers who would dedicate

  themselves to combating aging rather

  than using their intellect and resources

  to tackle other things that may be a

  more fashionable and things like that

  but do you think technology and medical

  research is the problem here or are the

  hearts and minds that you think are

  going to have to be won over politicians

  and religious leaders and other cultural

  things because it feels like those are

  going to be the stumbling blocks I mean

  things like CRISPR and all these other

  technologies and stem cells and that

  the thing that seems to be slowing them

  down as much as anything are laws and

  regulations and politicians and things

  like that when I think about change in

  the world

  I feel like technology is what you bet

  on technology is a kind of unstoppable

  force once you get it going and maybe

  you can accelerate that through

  political means or maybe not but like

  the technology root is the 100% sure

  root but without a doubt I would love

  essentially a NASA Kennedy style we're

  going to approach this as a real topic

  from the government project like against

  senescence like obviously that is a

  thing that I would absolutely love is

  for a president to get up and say like

  oh just like Nixon had in the 70s you

  have a war on cancer it's like say we're

  gonna have a war on senescence with this

  like this is a well understood topic and

  we're going to make some hard decisions

  about where we're diverting medical

  research and we're going to play the

  long game here I would absolutely love


  I just think from my interactions with

  people that is almost a total

  impossibility in any practical way

  I think people push back so hard on this

  topic you could never get that to happen

  right without some kind of incredible

  external force so I don't see the

  political path as a fruitful path which

  is why I feel like that the

  technological path or like the venture

  capital path like that's that is the way

  to go that's really the only practical

  path forward is it just has to be a

  thing that becomes technologically

  feasible and then society as always will

  catch up that's not really what I meant

  by the question though it wasn't as much

  the government enabling it as stopping

  political leaders from blocking it

  I feel like technology is like bursting

  to get out of the gate with some of this

  but they keep getting knocked down by

  people saying no no no that's banned no

  no that's like you know this is

  Frankenstein science and things like

  that I don't think you even need the

  government to like do a Manhattan

  Project of death hmm you just need

  governments to say all right we're open

  to it show us what

  you go this is one case where I am

  definitely glad that let's just say not

  all the countries in the world are on

  the same page

  when it comes to this kind of stuff and

  some of the most interesting most

  cutting-edge biological science is

  coming out of China and it seems like

  like China is going all in on a bunch of

  this genetic technology related to

  humans and I really think that if they

  get anything that's remotely viable

  other countries just immediately have to

  fold on it it's actually it's a bit like

  a lot of the like self-driving or

  automation technology that like

  automation is so incredibly economically

  valuable that any country that does a

  good job of automating anything has a

  tremendous advantage over all others and

  so the automation just spreads very

  quickly like if Canada for some reason

  said self-driving cars are 100% legal

  across all of Canada and the United

  States said no we're not going to allow

  it well all of transportation would

  divert right it's like the northern half

  of the transportation economy would

  divert through Canada as much as

  possible right like it they'd have such

  a tremendous advantage in terms of price

  and manufacturing that the United States

  couldn't possibly hold out very long and

  I suspect that any significant medical

  developments along these lines are going

  to be the same thing that's like okay

  well as long as there's someplace that

  this research can occur it's going to

  spread outward from that point so I'm

  glad that not everybody is as

  restrictive as the United States is when

  it comes to some of this technology well

  if I can put my two cents worth in on

  tearing as always to do with naming yeah

  senescence is not a word that many

  people understand

  yeah no senescence is a terrible and

  secondly if you're going to use the sort

  of the brand or the name of life

  extension that might work but for people

  of my generation all they can think of

  is Vanilla Sky and the fact that the

  creepy company that tries to make people

  live longer in that's called life

  extension and they're like the villains

  at night of the film so life extension

  is a bit of a tainted term at least for

  fans of

  maybe which I like very much this really

  does come back to you a lot of the

  pushback hmm

  stuff like senescence is a totally

  unknown word but it's also not a great

  word there's no freebooting right people

  just love it and they're going to spread

  it immediately like it's just not good

  and yeah like life extension there's

  something about this which is just like

  polluted in the popular culture which

  again is kind of why my feeling about

  this video is like do my best job to try

  to convince everybody but I feel like

  what I'm really trying to do is convince

  a few people who might be on the edge or

  like you know what that is a thing that

  maybe I should think about instead of

  other options your point from being

  earlier is totally true that there's

  some interesting cultural push backs on

  this I presume though that if it is

  going to be available in your lifetime

  Brady that you will be signing up for

  the treatment whatever it may be to

  extend your life I will consider signing

  up if you answer me one more question or

  deal with one more issue in my head and

  talk it through for me and then I'll be

  happy well who you make a convincing

  case for you know being anti-death and

  it shouldn't be the hardest case to make

  sure though because I don't think anyone

  really wants to die but can you see any

  merit to the opposite case do you see

  any usefulness and utility in death

  whether its population control I don't

  know what the pro-death arguments are

  but can you talk me through some of the

  pro-death arguments and tell me why

  they're flawed I want to be upfront here

  that this is the case where very often I

  feel like the arguments on the other

  side are a bit baffling a lot of them

  fall into a thing which i think is a

  little bit like when people get into

  arguments about the education system

  which is the thing that we have done on

  this podcast where they're backwards

  justifications for the way a thing is I

  have found at least personally that it's

  it's most useful when talking to people

  to frame it in a way where it's like if

  this didn't exist would you make it this

  way all right we'd like would you bring

  it back into existence the way it is

  right now it's like that's the way you

  should frame it in your mind like I just

  think a lot of the deaf stuff is like a

  rationalization for the way things are

  but gray lots of things we

  and do we do get rid of you know we put

  up buildings but then we knock them down

  for new buildings rather than just

  constantly patching them up and we do

  build a lot of obsolescence into things

  we do and not just to make money by

  selling another iPhone in a couple of

  years like there is a naturalness to the

  way we design and do things for it not

  necessarily last forever one of the

  arguments that comes up a bunch which I

  can I can see where people are coming

  from is the idea that if you have people

  living a really long time Society will

  never change

  and this to me is built on an assumption

  that I can see why people think it but I

  I just don't agree with it this idea

  that society changes because people with

  old ideas die and younger people with

  new ideas replace them right now if that

  was 100% true then yes like maybe this

  is a concern like society never changes

  or adapts to different situations beat


  yeah it's like it stagnates and you end

  up with some kind of like some kind of

  civilization that you'd visit on Star

  Trek right words like oh nothing nothing

  has changed for 20 thousand years on

  this planet right and we're just doing

  the same stuff all the time

  yeah but I just agree like I just think

  that that is a false assumption and I

  also think it's an assumption that it's

  just not borne out by the data like if

  you look at people's voting patterns

  people's geography is correlated way

  better with how they vote for example

  then their age is correlated with how

  they vote and I think we have seen

  enough things in society where people do

  change their minds because things are

  better ideas like the most recent

  example that's it's always used as the

  standard go to cases is simply gay

  marriage rights in the United States on

  the scale of societal change that

  happened relatively quickly and it seems

  to happen because people change their

  mind on this topic through exposure it

  didn't happen because there was a

  massive die-off of old people between

  the 90s and the 2000s that's not the

  reason that

  changed it changed because people change

  their minds so I think people are able

  to change their minds at any age and it

  also ignores that implicit in this idea

  of radical life extension is the idea

  that the whole thing that we're trying

  to achieve here is maintaining your

  health at an older age so it's not like

  the old people are still going to be the

  chief executive of SpaceX but have no

  new ideas they're gonna have a young

  dynamic brain that's still gonna be

  having new ideas all the time and like

  in a perfect world you're sort of at the

  level you are in your 20s or 30s or

  whatever so that's not like there's a

  whole generation of oldies that are just

  getting older and older and older but

  just not dying the argument seems to be

  that where we're aiming for the genies

  curse where we just get older and older

  and older forever and like who wants

  that nobody wants that yeah this is why

  I get a little bit like excised on this

  topic is that is I think that through

  might be a bit harsh but through a kind

  of carelessness of intent we actually

  accidentally create that world because

  if we're constantly spending our efforts

  on solving medical problems that are

  further towards end-of-life like what we

  end up doing is what has happened that

  we do extend life but we extend old-age

  and so like we're pushing up life

  expansion but where we're not increasing

  what is sometimes called the the health

  span of life very dramatically like

  you're increasing the total amount of

  time that you're alive but that is

  increasing faster than the healthy

  portion of your life he's increasing

  sometimes you know when we joke about

  like Oh CGP grey is dictator and I'm

  like you don't want me as dictator

  because I would do things that would be

  deeply unpopular and this is one of

  those cases where I feel like I would

  pull research money and effort off of

  diseases that kill people in their old

  age and put it towards senescence

  research and like that would be a deeply

  unpopular decision but I do think that's

  overall that's a better decision to make

  so for people who don't know that's

  research to stop aging yeah sorry

  research to stop aging so yeah I just

  think that there is there is

  way that we unintentionally create the

  the thing that is the argument that

  people are having they'd like oh you end

  up with the society that's just full of

  oldsters and hardly has any young people

  and becomes really stagnant and it's

  like well we can do that by accident

  yeah you can do that if you were Japan

  but like the whole

  but like the whole

  point is with it like that's not what

  we're trying to do all right then well

  at this stage I think we're getting well

  into old age so we are getting well into

  old age we can follow this up at some

  point but the podcast has been going on

  for quite a while yes it is late in the

  evening here I have to go on a plane

  relatively shortly I know I feel a bit

  bad about that I'm sorry but I hope your

  flight goes well I have no idea where

  you're going or what you're doing but

  I'm sure I'll find out in due course I'm

  an international man of mystery Brady

  yeah that's what I am