Hello Internet

H.I. #87: Podcast of the Century


  hello hello it looks good waveform looks

  good on the new posh as cushions

  microphone I was not sure if you were

  actually going to use that to record a

  show or if it was going to remain a

  trophy forever somewhere in your house I

  couldn't have predicted what you were

  going to do I like the idea of it taking

  some beatings like while I do like

  objects I also like objects that have

  like been used in battle like the real

  thing I prefer that to something that

  just sits in a glass case mmm so once

  this has got scratches on it and I've

  dropped it and it's got a few dings and

  dongs and things like that's just gonna

  make me love it more and you know

  knowing that it was used for the next

  two to three hundred hello Internet

  episodes you and I will be automated by

  then of course hopefully oh thanks I

  would like nothing more to collect the

  revenues on an automated hello Internet

  I'm so excited to tell you about this

  that I don't know how to tell you okay

  like do I stretch it out as a big long

  story with the twist or do I just like

  tell you the cool thing first and I

  don't know how to do it I think I'm

  gonna just jump right in and give you

  the good stuff cuz you just have to know

  it's too cool I don't know Brady isn't

  it always best to start at the beginning

  no not always

  I'm gonna mess around with the timeline

  a bit here okay I'm gonna send you a

  picture okay okay in itself it's a

  pretty cool picture here we go

  Oh what are you saying there the scale

  is a little tricky on this photograph

  but it looks like I am seeing a rocket

  launch at night I can't quite tell how

  big this actually is but it looks like a

  pretty reasonably sized Rockets

  launching over the ocean or watching

  over the ocean this is part of the

  Roxette X project that NASA runs where

  they launch these things called sounding

  rockets okay which are basically

  repurposed military hardware that they

  can send into space on suborbital

  flights as kind of a cheap way of

  putting things in space and they're

  often used for research or sometimes

  student projects and things like that so

  they'll go up and you'll get five or six

  minutes of zero-g and that sort of thing

  oh so there are people in there no there

  aren't people in the okay no they're

  nowhere near big enough for like people

  but they're still pretty hefty Rockets

  and they can go hundreds

  miles into space so you know pretty

  awesome things so interesting story as

  well by the way why they're called

  sounding Rockets because I thought there

  must be something to do with like sonar

  or something like they used to send them

  up and like have them make noise to

  measure things but it actually has

  nothing to do with it it comes from like

  the nautical term sounding which is when

  they used to drop like string or ropes

  with weights on them off the back of a

  ship to measure how deep the water was

  hmm so this is kind of like in Reverse

  because they're sending these things

  that really high

  they're sending these sounding rockets

  into space to figure out how deep space

  is I don't think that's the job of this

  sounding is the string at the end of the

  rocket if we're going to send it as far

  as we can and that's how big space is

  Mikiko boy golly it's a space it's

  really big there that last one we sent

  we ran out of string again

  so big deal and I'll actually uh

  endeavor to post a video of this

  particular one launching because it's

  not like watching a set in five take off

  to the moon where they start off really

  slow rumbling from the pad these things

  are like a bullet out of a gun they're


  hmm I think it's something like 30

  g-forces when they take off there's

  nobody in that rocket it's crazy and

  even when it's that sustained flight

  it's about 15 J so you couldn't put

  people in it and they also spin at a

  crazy rate to keep them stable but then

  this particular one sort of stops

  spinning when it gets into space and it

  stayed sort of weightless and hardly

  moving at all for six minutes and then

  they re spin it up and it falls back

  down to earth and it lands in the ocean

  in the Atlantic Ocean this thing takes

  off from a place called the Wallops

  Flight Facility which is an island off

  Virginia hmm and then someone will fish

  it out of the water and if necessary

  they can get the experiment out of the

  rocket if it hasn't been bits

  information back hmm that's what's going

  on this particular launch happened just

  recently on August 13 and this thing

  went up a hundred miles so it went into

  space came back down fantastic these

  things have you know reasonably common

  launches like this but this one was a

  bit special and I'll send you another

  picture okay because as far as I know

  this is the first time that the hello

  Internet Nayland gear flag has gone into

  space there was a nail and gear flag in

  the nose of this rocket dick has now

  been into space Wow okay so you send me

  a picture of a mini flag that it looks

  like somebody made about the length of a

  number-two pencil this was in the nose

  of the spaceship that we're talking

  about here it was so if I may explain

  okay yeah how did this come to pass

  basically the start of Operation tetra

  as I'm calling it I was contacted by a

  Tim who I'm gonna give the code name

  deep space contacted me and this person

  was was working on the experimental

  payload and it's quite common for people

  working on these sort of things to put a

  couple of little personal trinkets in

  like everyone likes IANA if there's

  something that can be signed and they

  might put like an SD card with a bunch

  of pictures and everyone's names on them

  so they can say your name went into

  space and that so deep space contacted

  me and basically said there could be an

  opportunity here so we decided it was

  time for the hailing gear to go into

  space but it had to be extremely small

  we couldn't send like a full-size flag

  because the amount of space and weight

  you've got is like tiny yeah he

  basically said I had to be small enough

  that if it was all like round up it

  could fit inside like a tiny little like

  pill container and the amount of fuel

  you need to accelerate any mass to 30

  G's at a sustained level it gets

  expensive fast hmm but luckily I happen

  to be very good friends in Bristol here

  with a very talented woman whose

  business is doing tiny like intricate

  stitching and needlework

  so I didn't want to just send like a

  paper flag or a cardboard flag into

  space because I thought that would be a

  bit naff I want it to be like a proper

  cloth flag with you know the nailing

  gear embroidered on so what you're

  looking at there is not just like a

  piece of paper that looks at the nailing

  gear there is a proper cloth flag with

  little bits of string and like all the

  little things as if you were going to

  so it is a proper nailing gear flag

  shrunk down even the white part there is

  like separate cloth stitched on so this

  friend of mine made this beautiful tiny

  flag yeah you sent me the world's

  tiniest photograph of this tiny flag you

  sent me a photograph for ants so I

  couldn't quite see the detail but yes

  once you start describing it I can see

  that it has that additional bit of white

  on it so that it can be flown on a tiny

  planet that this spaceship might land on

  baby I'm gonna say that that makes it a

  hundred times better that it's not just

  a piece of paper with the logo printed

  out on it it is a hello Internet flag

  shrunk down to tiny size that's way

  better that's way better uh uh for the

  listeners after my complaining that the

  photograph Brady sent me was too small

  Brady has now sent macro shots of the

  detail of this flag I think these are

  ten 20 megapixel photos that have come

  across the old iMessage now I can see

  every if i zoom into my computer I can

  see every single individual lovingly

  crafted stitch on this tiny hello

  internet flag it's beautiful I did say

  to my friend Kate because like her

  business is making these tiny stitch

  things like she makes like recreations

  of detailed maps out of stitches hmm and

  I did say to her once the Tim say this

  like they're gonna get pretty excited I

  did say how do you feel about making a

  whole bunch of tiny you know India flags

  and she sort of said she may have a

  sideline anyway at the moment there's

  just the one man it's been in space and

  it's being sent back to me it was fished

  out of the well the whole rocket was

  lodged out of the Atlantic by the

  fishermen oh god I didn't even occur to

  me see you're gonna get this back in

  your hands yes Wow it's soon to be in

  the post from codenamed deep space and

  I've said can you also include like an

  official letter to like certify that it

  went into space and all that sort of

  stuff cuz you know I like all that kind

  of stuff

  so hello Internet flag in space it did

  get a little bit wet because when the

  rocket smashes into the season

  can leak in so a little bit of seawater

  got onto it but you know that just adds

  to the awesomeness of it in my opinion

  it was exposed to a bit of you know a

  bit a vacuum nurse and you know it's

  done the real deal man it's done the

  real deal this is such an artifact of

  hello Internet I know what you're

  thinking I know what you're thinking

  what am I thinking Brady medal of honor

  well medal of honor obviously I don't

  need to say that out loud I'm still

  thinking about just the object itself

  and oh yeah this needs to be kept in a

  vacuum seal like under a glass dome

  there needs to be some sort of like

  monument around this hello internet

  artifact this is great I really love

  this like the photograph that you sent

  me of this launch like it's majestic to

  see photographs of humans launching

  objects into space just under normal

  circumstances like look at this

  tremendous triumph we have as a species

  but now that this photograph has taken

  on almost majestic or holy proportions

  in my mind I lack the words to describe

  it yeah well my plan is to get that

  amazing photo framed with the flag

  framed mmm and have it like as a

  permanent display that could possibly go

  and well to us right yes yeah I was

  thinking Kate who stitched her I was

  thinking of having it that displayed in

  her shop for a like a month or two so

  she could say look I made this flag and

  here is going into space cuz then like

  normal people will see it and I won't

  just be in my office and it feels like

  it's like it's part of its well to a

  stage one I could see the museums around

  the world that are interested in in

  hello internet as a cultural powerhouse

  would want there's artifacts on loan on

  display I think this quite reasonably

  could go on world tours in museums

  across the globe without a doubt before

  going into its final resting place at

  the permanent hello internet museum on

  level seven of the Marty Blackstone

  right of course we're all be displayed

  next to the full-size hello Internet

  Nayland gave flag that was flown on Air

  Force One which is already framed in my


  yes Brady's office the temporary holding

  place for all of the hello internet

  artifacts that will eventually be

  relocated to the proper Museum do you

  know what's amazing though what there

  was actually a nail in gear space race

  I'm gonna send you another picture I'm

  not even joking here comes another

  picture sent by another Tim who has been

  working on the innards and circuitry for

  a small satellite which is likely to be

  launched possibly next year please tell

  me this is a Soviet satellite it's not

  severe it's not serious

  oh wow this is a piece of it looks like

  circuit board like printed circuit board

  it's like shielding board and


  on to it is the name of a few people of

  note engine the creator and well you can

  see it there gray yeah I can see that

  this the nail and gear silk-screened

  onto the shielding board for this

  satellite it's very I like that it's

  being it's being held in you know the

  blue gloves for working with delicate

  equipment or important equipment this is

  proper cleanroom stuff you're looking at

  here this is a honest-to-goodness

  awesome satellite that's gonna be proper

  like 600 kilometers in space for a long

  time this is no joking matter

  so up there as it's zooming around the

  earth there will be a nail in gear

  insert shielding the delicate innards of

  the satellite from the harsh radiation

  of space also awesome not as awesome as

  an actual flag going into space but

  still very very awesome do you know

  what's really cool about the miniature

  flag and why it means so much to me well

  is because it was a really big thing in

  the Apollo time to take miniature flags

  like to the moon and stuff oh yeah and

  you can still buy them on the

  second-hand market and a miniature

  American flag that went to the moon

  depending on whether it went around the

  moon landed on the moon went on the

  surface of the Moon you're looking at

  tens tens tens of thousands of dollars

  at least wait can you explain that to me

  are you saying that there was there was

  a market for astronauts bringing flags

  up on space missions and then bringing

  them back Apollo astronauts ever allow

  all astronauts still but it was a it was

  a particularly big thing in the Apollo

  time were allowed to take these personal

  preference kits they're called ppk/s


  to space and it's like you know a cloth

  bag and you could put whatever you

  wanted in there so they would put things

  in there that would be valuable because

  they went to space and if the material

  stayed in the module that went around

  the moon you know that's pretty valuable

  if you took it with you into the lunar

  landing module and it went down onto the

  surface that made the item even more

  valuable if it was in a pocket or

  something when you walked around on the

  moon well that's pretty valuable stuff

  days it did start causing a few

  controversies later on Apollo 15 got

  themselves into a bit of controversy to

  do with taking up a bunch of envelopes

  and stamps and salt and stuff and the

  Hulk sort of grubby market side of it

  became a little bit controversial for a

  while that's what I was wondering is

  this like part of the unofficial

  compensation package of becoming an

  astronaut is a wink-wink we all know you

  get to bring up some stuff that you can

  sell on the grey market

  it wasn't even unofficial there are

  these things and you can still buy them

  today there's quite a market for them I

  think they're called

  insurance covers and they would be like

  an official envelope like with nice

  printed stuff on it like a picture of

  the crew commemorating the mission and

  like stamps and things like that and all

  the astronauts on that mission like Neil

  Armstrong and Buzz Aldrin and Michael

  Collins did this with each sign the

  envelope mm-hmm so it had all three

  members of the mission on the envelope

  and they do a whole bunch of them and

  then those envelopes would be split

  amongst the families because then if

  they then like died on the moon because

  they couldn't get life insurance because

  no one would insure them these things

  would be so valuable they would act as

  life insurance so they were actually

  called insurance covers and there were

  things they were sitting there signing

  thinking this is gonna keep my family

  fed if I die in space hmm interesting

  stuff isn't it the the envelope thing

  I've heard that I guess what I'm

  wondering is that this policy of you can

  bring up a little bag full of personal

  items yeah how much was it blessed or

  anticipated from NASA that you of course

  are going to bring up things that you're

  just going to resell versus oh you're

  you're bringing up a photograph of your

  wife and family you know to put on the

  dashboard of the spaceship like in a

  movie or whatever or leave on the moon

  there was one Apollo astronaut who left

  a photo of his wife and kids actually on

  the surface of the Moon or to do that

  like I guess that's what I'm wondering


  I understand that they could officially

  bring up objects but was it foreseen or

  anticipated that this would rapidly turn

  into a gray market of memorabilia I'm

  pretty sure it was already a known thing

  that was happening hmm like even before

  Apollo the early missions it was sort of

  already a thing that items flown in

  space were valuable and astronauts

  you know when known to be taking them up

  there and like doing their own little

  side deals with people to take certain

  things into space it came to a head

  after Apollo 15 I can't remember all the

  exact details I think from memory it was

  reaching a kind of more industrial scale

  almost and then it kind of started

  looking bad or and then they sort of

  introduced some new rules but up until

  then it was kind of okay NASA again I'm

  just speaking from memory here but I

  believe NASA didn't even look at what

  was in those bags that's how personal

  they were the only person who had a list

  of what was in your personal preference

  kit I believe was probably deke Slayton

  who was the head of the astronaut office

  so he had to know what was in there just

  so that you weren't taking you know a

  stick of dynamite up or something like

  that or the or they have a they have an

  inventory just in case there's an Apollo

  13 moment of oh oh somebody brought

  scotch tape how incredibly convenient

  assist I actually brought the correct

  shaped carbon what a blessing that's

  really interesting

  I have one more question about this

  Brady Oh Andy what go on can you explain

  the name operation tetra I feel like

  there's some clever meaning to this that

  I as a person who lacks your

  encyclopedic knowledge of outer space I

  am not picking up on what is this

  operation name and what does it mean

  the reason is code operation tetra is

  not for me to reveal that is a decision

  for deep-space if we manage to reveal it

  okay that's how secretive it is if

  deep-space wishes to reveal why we're

  calling our operation tetra that is his

  prerogative okay

  well we'll find out next episode if such

  information is revealed or if it remains

  forever a mystery I was so excited by

  this but before I spoke about it on the

  show today because obviously most just

  had been done by email and post before I

  spoke about it on the show today I

  wanted to have had a voice conversation

  just to find out you know you find out

  so much more that way

  so I had the phone call and that just

  got me even more excited and I couldn't

  tell you because I wanted to surprise

  you on the show hmm so I immediately

  phoned my wife and she's like what's

  going on I'm so excited I have to tell

  you what's going on in LA and she

  already knew about the thing going into

  space I was like I spoke I spoke to him

  she said oh that's good and you know I

  told her all sorts of bits and pieces

  and she listened and you know what her

  reaction was I'm going to guess as with

  so many things with your wife and hello

  Internet related her reaction was no

  reaction she said don't forget to pick

  up some bananas at the show oh god

  that's the worst

  that is so deflation arey I can

  understand that feeling I have been on

  the unintentional receiving end of those

  kind of remarks to where you're telling

  someone something that you think is so

  amazing and that other person is like oh

  that's great that's great we need milk

  as well if you happen to be going out

  like before that she did ask me one

  question and that kind of shot me down

  as well because I said oh the flow I

  went into space I went into space and

  she went we're in space did it go mm-hmm

  and then I went oh well it like it went

  up like high for six minutes and then it

  fell back down into the sea okay she was

  looking for a planet name actually two

  and a half years ago on day one of the

  podcast we launched a probe headed out

  towards Pluto and it's just come back

  anyway I did pick up the bananas we get

  the important things done here speaking

  of space gray Elon Musk apparently has

  released the picture of what the

  spacesuit is gonna look like that is

  gonna be worn by his SpaceX crew when

  they like go to space I mean I don't

  know why there's crew on his dragon

  cargo capsule spurt

  okay I have a question Brady okay all

  right there's a good chance I won't have

  the answer well okay my question is

  actually partly about that because I

  feel like maybe I'm wrong about this but

  it feel like you're a real NASA man am I

  right about that like yeah a couple of

  episodes ago

  there was something about cars in

  Australia and it was like Oh everybody

  in Australia it's wibbly-wobbly versus

  zingers like and I'm a wibbly-wobbly man

  like people pick sides in nineteen oh

  you're talking about now Holden Holden

  yeah yeah I got it all right I may be

  wrong but I'm realizing when you send me

  this story about SpaceX that I feel like

  you're a NASA man in your bones and I

  would wonder first is that correct and

  if it is correct

  how much do you follow news about SpaceX

  I love NASA because you know I've got

  the runs on the board haven't they they

  put people on the moon they were the

  ground breakers and when they were doing

  space stuff at its best it was all about

  just what can we do what can we do just

  for the sake of doing not what's gonna

  make us money not how much money are we

  gonna get by landing on the moon or

  putting people in space or taking a

  photo of the moons of Saturn it was just

  what can we do and let's do it and I

  love them for that times have changed

  and at times have even changed at NASA

  in my opinion and so when I look at

  things like SpaceX

  while they're doing impressive difficult

  things mm-hmm

  a lot of it is kind of what can we do

  that's already been done but cheaper

  what can we do that's already been done

  but earn money from it right and like

  that's important and like I know it's

  important to make space stuff cheaper

  because that's what's gonna make it you

  know more useful to us as humans but

  that just doesn't inspire me I'm not

  inspired by economics like when they

  keep landing these reusable rockets and

  everyone's like this is a great

  milestone for space like it's not a

  great milestone it just means it's gonna

  make rocket use cheaper mm-hmm and

  that's to me that's not a milestone

  that's just like economies and like

  don't get me wrong it does look pretty

  impressive when those things land

  because there just is such a bizarre

  looking thing to see something land

  backwards like that mm-hmm so I am

  impressed by the visuals of it but I

  don't think all these milestones of

  making things cheaper are like inspiring

  me I think they're good and I'm glad

  people are doing them and I'm glad

  they're a businessman who care about

  these things because it's important to

  push it all forward so I'm not going to

  poopoo them but I'm also not gonna

  get stars in my eyes and think how

  wonderful this is I just think it's just

  the corporatization and the businesses

  ation of space which was inevitable and


  but it just doesn't stir me you like

  space before it was all corporate yeah

  you've summed it up there yeah it's

  interesting because I am very aware that

  of all of the companies that are in the

  musk orbit the only one that I actually

  really follow with any detail is Tesla

  and I haven't followed any of the news

  out of SpaceX it just doesn't hold my

  mind even though I completely agree with

  with your comments but like the

  economics of it are important for the

  future of space travel it's just that I

  don't follow it I actually haven't even

  seen one of those videos yet of the

  Rockets landing backwards like I've I've

  seen still photographs but I've never

  actually seen the video itself it's

  quite a sight it's quite a funny size

  it's worth a look yeah but I just think

  is interesting is I do know people who

  are into space and it's like for some

  people like while you are a NASA man

  some people are all in on SpaceX like

  they're super interested in SpaceX and

  not very interested in the stuff that

  came before space yeah there are two

  types of SpaceX fans there are the ones

  you just described who we'd like just

  love that it's becoming business and

  private mhm and they're also like the

  cheerleaders who just like anything

  space is good hey if it's space it's

  good and they get all excited and you

  know my feeling on this face - your

  pressure that's how you feel about it

  space - you pressure you mustn't say

  anything bad about SpaceX because

  they're like pushing space forward and

  like you know they're not question that

  anyway I think it's an interesting thing

  because I vaguely know when SpaceX stuff

  is going on because I see people

  tweeting at me about the news and asking

  what I think about it I'm just always

  the way that I just don't follow it it

  doesn't pull my attention toward it

  maybe I think you've solidified

  something in my mind that it's it's like

  the NASA stuff is interesting because it

  was first and as I think I've said

  before in the podcast I view a lot of

  the NASA stuff as particularly

  interesting the whole space race time

  was particularly interesting because it

  may be one of the only times in human

  history where there there

  like technological happenings that were

  off the timeline I feel like the

  progress of technology is is very

  ordered and one thing very naturally

  comes after the next but that maybe we

  had this moment where there was a like a

  push that was ahead of its time

  which is then why we didn't have much

  progress for a long time but that makes

  it super interesting that there were

  other things happening in the world that

  forced this early expansion of a thing

  that really shouldn't have happened for

  another 60 years so like that is very

  interesting but I think you're right

  maybe a lot of the stuff right now it

  doesn't capture my attention because it

  is mostly about dropping the costs to

  the point at which it's economical to do

  and then maybe my interest will uptick

  once it gets out of the we're dropping

  the cost phase and it's like okay I

  think I'll be excited once we start

  actually moving cargo in and out of

  space or like when we actually start

  mining asteroids like Jeff Bezos his

  rifle company is trying to do like I

  think that's maybe where I'll be

  interested again but I still feel like

  I'm at a real lull for interest in

  what's going on in space like we're

  going through a necessary process but

  it's not exciting to me yet until we

  start doing like new things again yeah I

  think I get a little bit demotivated

  when I think people are doing things

  just for the money and I feel like it's

  an inevitable consequence of private

  funded space travel and exploration that

  it has to be done for the money

  otherwise it won't happen so I'm not

  saying like Elon Musk only cares about

  money right but I am saying they are

  making sure everything they do will make

  money and that's when it becomes a bit

  demotivating even when they start you

  know doing lots more cargo or when they

  start mining stuff I don't care about

  the mining asteroids because it's

  profitable I'm really curious to see

  what it's like on an asteroid mm-hmm

  like that's gonna be cool but when it's

  about money I straightaway go I love

  when things are being done just for the

  accomplishment for the glory of it glory

  I care you glory too I understand that

  feeling I think that my feeling is a

  little bit different in that I think

  with stuff like this in my mind when I

  think about mining asteroids I think

  it's not like wow Bezos or musk are

  gonna make a fortune on the

  asteroids right isn't that exciting I

  think I'm much more interested because

  it's like the money is an indication

  that something is useful now it's not

  just a stunt it means like if a thing

  can be done for profit it means there is

  some intrinsic utility in the thing for

  someone somewhere like that's where it

  starts becoming interesting again like

  like once the economics of asteroid

  mining become viable it means that

  whatever it is that's happening is

  useful and relevant to people in some

  way but it feels like we're not there

  yet and who knows how long it will take

  to actually get there this this is also

  the kind of thing I feel like I have no

  idea or mental estimate of like what is

  the timeline of how long is it going to

  take before the very first roll of

  copper is ever pulled in from from an

  asteroid like I have no idea is that ten

  years is it 50 years is it a hundred

  years away like I don't have any concept

  of what people are thinking about in

  that domain I get a and I get why that

  is of interest to you and it certainly

  is important to lots of people and it's

  inevitable that that's the way things

  would end up but I feel sad that that is

  actually become so important to everyone

  like that's what's reigned in NASA isn't

  it means that saying you know how is

  what you're doing actually useful to

  humans not another space probe into the

  outer solar system like do something

  useful there's this that all this

  pressure to do something useful

  there was nothing useful about going to

  the moon oh there was something useful

  it was proven those Russkies that we

  were better I'm gonna directly argue

  that that was actually tremendously

  useful and that's why it was a bit of a

  like an artificial technological leap we

  gotta prove to somebody that we're way

  better than them like watch out Russians

  America rules yep but America didn't

  prove its might by finding a cheaper way

  to refine copper ore didn't move its

  might by increasing its gross domestic

  product by fifteen percent and used that

  as a way of saying see Russia we are

  mighty what they did was something

  audacious with no seeming economic value

  so even though there was the political

  utility of it at the time the thing they

  realized they had to do

  - really well the world and prove their

  amazingness wasn't economic news outside

  that anyway

  Elon Musk has released this image of

  their space suit I was just curious what

  you thought of it I thought like it's

  obviously a very glossy PR picture

  mm-hmm designed to impress but it's the

  first look at a private space suit I

  wonder what you thought of it I think it

  looks sleek it looks very 2001 there

  isn't much to comment on it except there

  is something that endlessly tickles me

  about the Guardian has an article in

  which they referenced that quote chief

  executive Elon Musk revealed the suit on

  Instagram on Wednesday right like

  there's something about that that I just

  I find really funny that we live in this

  world where the CEOs of major companies

  or even big notable politicians like

  they announced stuff on like Twitter and

  Instagram and I just wait for the day

  when someone really important announces

  the thing on reddit and then newspapers

  have to reveal that cyber monkey 47

  revealed his future plans about this you

  know enormous company that he runs on

  his reddit I guess it is only a matter

  of time before some kid who's had a

  social media account forever with the

  dumb name who just wants to keep keeping

  it becomes a CEO of an important company

  and then all of his announcements are on

  this social media with this with his old

  handle right that he made up when he was

  13 like I just it tickles me to think

  that that's going to happen eventually

  or like I look forward to like a

  president declaring war on snapchat the

  snaps not there anymore

  I'd say chaos gray grabbed it this

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  hello Internet one of the things I like

  about listening to audiobooks is I find

  much more than a physical book it's

  easier to reread an audio book that you

  like a lot and I have a few favorites

  that I like to revisit on occasion and

  one of those that's been on my mind

  given some of the things

  we've been discussing on hello Internet

  is Bill Bryson's in a sunburned country

  bill bryson if you're unaware is a funny

  expats travel writer who I've enjoyed a

  bunch of his books a walk in the woods

  where he goes through the Appalachian

  Trail is also quite good and I think I

  have recommended to you before but in a

  sunburned country this is the book where

  he visits Australia and I think perhaps

  I need to revisit this book so I can

  more deeply understand

  acha I feel like there's something I'm

  still not getting about this term that

  Brady discusses on the podcast and it's

  been a long time since I've read in a

  sunburned country so I think I need to

  go back for some acha updates I need to

  hear Bryson tell me about all of the

  kind of super adorable things that you

  can find in Australia cuddly koalas

  posing platypi the country just filled

  with so much cuteness that I think I

  didn't appreciate on my first listen

  through so if you are signing up with

  audible and you're thinking about a book

  that you want to use as your free audio

  book perhaps think about giving in a

  sunburned country by Bill Bryson a try

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  the show all right one other reasonably

  well yes significant piece of space news

  yeah where am i Brady right now I

  actually don't know where you are I'm

  assuming you're in England but seriously

  you never tell me I actually at one

  point thought you'd gone to America for

  the Eclipse and hadn't told me

  maybe I have no a student know that you

  didn't it is actually true that I have

  occasionally recorded the podcast from

  another location and it just has to come

  up in the space of recording but now for

  this recording I'm sure to the

  disappointment of hundreds of thousands

  of Tim's we are not in America recording

  while the Eclipse is occurring on a

  podcast many many moons ago Oh clever it

  was speculated whether or not we were

  going to be in America for the Eclipse

  whether or not the podcast was going to

  still be in existence at the time that

  the Eclipse occurred and the podcasts

  still exists but we did not make it to

  America at this summer sorry everybody

  for two minutes I was jealous of all my

  American friends but for the 48 hours

  either side of those two minutes I was

  feeling very very happy to not be in

  airports and on planes yeah I think that

  is definitely the case where both of us

  we've ended up with a summer with lots

  of travel and it was just it was very

  difficult to try to coordinate

  I had the longest traveling I ever had

  this summer which was then followed by a

  very short break being back in England

  and then a big anniversary trip and it's

  just like the summer was just a big big

  traveling summer and it just really

  wasn't it wasn't going to work out going

  to America so I have said before saying

  a total solar eclipse is an amazing

  thing I did see one in China and it

  remains one of the most extraordinary

  things I've seen so I think everyone who

  was lucky enough to see in the United

  States is very fortunate and I hope they

  enjoyed it but the cheer pressure got a

  little bit crazy at some points on

  Twitter and like I braved it

  occasionally with a little bit of

  mocking the America centric nosov it

  took even my breath away like someone

  needs to get over there and tell

  Americans that eclipses like happen

  elsewhere like seriously it was crazy

  that how America centric it was but ok

  ok my fault for following so many

  Americans on Twitter but CNN did my head

  in most of all constantly referring to

  this as the eclipse of the century by

  what cried

  area this is the eclipse of the century

  I have not been able to establish I

  can't even make one up is it the only

  Eclipse this century Brady no is it the

  only eclipse in America this century no

  okay is it the biggest eclipse no is

  it's not the longest of the personal

  wall is the glyph it's not the smallest

  it's nothing I couldn't find a single

  criteria by which this was the eclipse

  of the century other than it was

  happening right now in America is that

  the eclipse of the century that has been

  most often referred to as the eclipse of

  the century perhaps that is the metric

  by which they are measuring and it will

  remain so until the next solar eclipse

  in the United States but there are some

  people saying oh there's some

  coast-to-coast criteria but eclipses

  have gone across like other countries

  like if you are not being America

  centric there is no way you could call

  it the eclipse of the century

  and even if you are being America

  centric they have a better Eclipse this

  century admittedly not for a long time

  when is the better Eclipse oh it's like

  right at the end of the century okay

  well promise right now if the podcast is

  still running it will be there for the

  second Eclipse of the century we missed

  the first one but we'll catch the second

  one in America I started looking up

  other eclipses to find out what really

  is the eclipse of the century I decided

  I wanted to figure out what would be the

  eclipse of the century I didn't really

  decide on one there was a quite a good

  one in Antarctica that goes the opposite

  way to normal but what I then started

  looking at was what I just the best

  eclipses full-stop

  and there's actually a Wikipedia page

  you can go to because you know how they

  know every Eclipse forever so they know

  when they're gonna happen in that and

  you can look up all these amazing things

  like eclipses that coincide with

  transits of Venus and things like that

  like all these amazing alignments that

  happen in space and there was one I

  think in like 20,000 years or something

  where a total solar eclipse coincides

  with a transit of Venus and things like

  that so I was reading about that stuff

  right and that stuff is so far in the

  future it starts to make you feel a

  little bit insignificant

  and then I saw an image taken from space

  of the Eclipse that just happened and it

  was like a time-lapse showing the moon's

  shadow sweep across the earth and when

  you saw it in time-lapse and you

  realized all that eclipses is like a

  shadow fleetingly crossing another

  object part of me looked at that imagery

  and thought that's amazing like that's

  really amazing to see it's amazing that

  we can do that that we can look at the

  moon shadow from space aren't we amazing

  but another part of me thought like that

  was just a shadow briefly touching

  another object in space it happens all

  the time

  it will happen for hundreds of thousands

  of more years it happens all across the

  universe all the time

  and yet we humans down here are getting

  so excited and calling it the eclipse of

  the century and like our planets

  grinding to a halt so we can watch it

  and it made me suddenly think that

  humans like really fleeting and pathetic

  few things first I need you to send me

  the link to this list of eclipses

  because I can I searched for Wikipedia

  eclipse the top result was Twilight Saga

  : Eclipse so I am NOT able to find this

  list that you're talking about put list

  of future astronomical events okay this

  is Wikipedia article is very interesting

  but it is not what I think we're really

  looking for here list of future

  astronomical events yeah and if you

  scroll down to things that are happening

  like you know in the year 20,000 346

  turbine becomes the North Star and

  things like that okay right so I'm

  looking at list of future astronomical

  events I enjoy this breakdown we have

  the 21st century including things like

  Halley's comet reaches perihelion as it

  returns to the inner solar system

  there's Venus occults Jupiter I don't

  actually know what the word cult's means

  in this context it's kind of like an

  eclipse but the other way it's like two

  things crossing over each other in the

  night sky okay so what was that one

  Venus occult Venus is called Jupiter so

  that would look like Venus was crossing

  in front of Jupiter from our perspective

  okay so there's a few things that are

  listed here in the 21st century the next

  category is 22nd to 30th century no

  the near Star Trek future I imagine they

  then goes to the 4th to 10th millennium

  but I really enjoy that after the 10th

  of millennium they simply call it the

  far future right I feel like 4th to 10th

  millennium I think you can categorize it

  as the far future I like that they like

  Nana now after 10th millennium far

  future is what we need to talk about

  some of these are awesome that and it

  makes me sad that I won't be here like

  in the year 38,000 172 if you're on the

  surface of Neptune

  you can watch Uranus transit across the

  front of the Sun the rarest of all

  planetary transits Oh wouldn't that be

  amazing or if you were around here on

  earth in the year 67,000 173 Mercury and

  Venus crossed the ecliptic at the same

  time but then a mere two thousand years

  later you can watch something I would

  love to see a simultaneous transit of

  Venus and Mercury both crossing the

  Sun's face at the same time personally I

  like Wikipedia for some of its its

  little human elements here that in the

  year 4000 772 on October 13th the Mayan

  calendar will require a sixth digit I

  like to imagine that on October 12 of

  that year there are once again people

  freaking out about the inevitable end of

  the earth at that point like oh the

  Mayan calendar hopefully has five digits

  that's referred to as the Mayan bug I

  really like the idea of that that people

  will just have totally forgotten all of

  the history up until now that go now

  Mayan calendar again it's coming up to

  another digit the minds didn't see this

  far in advance and in America it would

  still be eclipses of the century that

  time there's an eclipse that's going to

  happen here it's it's an interesting

  list yes you these things I enjoy the

  idea of physicists calculating and

  finding these things are simulating

  these things on a computer however it is

  they they come across these events this

  is also for me as a former physics major

  it's the pleasing nature of being able

  to do calculations that are so many

  times in physics you're doing a

  calculation and say these things like oh

  well we're just gonna have to ignore

  friction and air resistance for this

  physics problem but when you're dealing

  with very massive bodies in space

  in the vacuum of space you can say yeah

  we can actually calculate what's going

  to happen in the year 7,000 right

  because we can't ignore friction because

  there isn't any friction like it's

  trivial in this case so I love the idea

  that you can just calculate that stuff

  so far out in advance apparently there

  is a point though where even like solar

  system predictions become chaotic there

  has to be because you have to flag solar

  wind and the vacuum of space is not a

  pure vacuum there has to be some point

  at which that is but like how close is

  that to the actual heat death of the

  universe I would love to know somebody

  knows yeah like where does it start

  becoming chaotic in those predictions

  long after you and I are in the ground

  that's for sure but all of this all of

  this aside the thing I kept thinking

  about with this eclipse coming up in

  America and of course as having made

  reference to eight years ago I feel like

  someone has been turning up the volume

  in the background of my life for the

  past three months about how often I hear

  about this eclipse like on Twitter and

  references to the rest of it and as it

  kept getting closer and as I was

  thinking more and more about eclipses

  and seeing what equipment you need to

  view the Eclipse and where you need to

  be I have to say I feel like this this

  took all of the shine off of eclipses in

  my mind because like you when you were

  talking about oh it's a shadow crossing

  in front of an object I feel like I have

  crossed some kind of mental barrier

  where I don't even understand why this

  is anything other than just a thing of

  mild interests I don't know I feel like

  I can't understand anymore how it is

  that people are interpreting me eclipse

  it's like okay so your subjective

  experience is you're outside it goes

  dark for a few moments and then it's

  light again in the middle of the day

  that's not what the Eclipse experience

  is though like that's that's not what

  happens okay why is it so breathtaking

  it is a very beautiful thing it's rare

  right let's ignore like the historical

  significance of the human-like

  relationship with eclipses because you

  can easily dismiss that as old

  superstition right so let's just talk

  about that as just a thing of beauty it

  is a very beautiful thing okay it's also

  like just something so far from what

  you're used to seeing like watching the

  Sun which you've seen like

  every day of your life in the sky

  suddenly being like eaten away like

  pac-man is like it's just very strange

  to look up and think that's like a

  really strange thing to see

  like if something extraordinary is in

  the sky and then for the two minutes of

  totality not only is it strange to have

  like Knight thrust upon you so quickly

  there is like an eeriness to it because

  everything else is like de still so like

  the birds are all out and animals are

  around and suddenly they're quite

  confused so some interesting things

  happen but the most important thing is

  it just looks really beautiful the way

  you see the corona and look at the

  diamond ring phenomena and the

  glistening around the edge of the Sun

  this black disc in the sky with the

  light around it but the other thing

  that's seeing a total eclipse in real

  life impressed upon me that is never

  conveyed in photos this is what I'm

  wondering like what is the in presence

  experience yeah there is something

  that's not conveyed in photos and this

  will sound silly because I know how far

  away all these objects are right but

  there is like a kind of three

  dimensionality to it that's hard to

  explain it doesn't just look like a flat

  photo or a video it feels more

  three-dimensional and almost feels like

  you could reach out and touch it it's

  got this really weird quality to it and

  I was talking to a very good friend

  Destin beforehand who did watch the

  Eclipse I would have been severely

  disappointed if Destin had not seen the

  Eclipse and who also I must say did

  invite me to go and watch it with him

  and tried to accommodate me so he was

  very kind but I couldn't make it and he

  also took an incredible photo of the

  International Space Station transiting

  the Sun partway through the Eclipse so

  make sure you go and check that out and

  whatever other videos Destin has

  produced about it because I'm sure

  they'll be brilliant although I have not

  yet seen them but when I was talking to

  Destin beforehand I said to him whatever

  you do like make sure you put your

  camera down at some point and look at it

  because there's something about seeing

  it that no photo will convey and you

  should just stop and look at it for a

  minute because that's the best thing

  about it and afterwards like he said I

  even stopped taking photos I almost

  forgot to take photos because looking at

  it was what it was all about and he

  couldn't have agreed more hmmm as I said

  do you agree like no photo can explain

  what that looks like and he said 100%

  great hmm maybe you're talking me back

  into it braiding you should definitely

  watch one at some point they are lovely

  to watch I feel like your poetic words

  are unwinding something about my

  experience of seeing photographs on

  Twitter of people holding paper plates

  in front of their face this one for me

  in a way was a bit ruined by the hype

  mm-hmm like I'd rather go and watch one

  in Antarctica or like in some obscure

  place where it's a bit it feels a little

  bit more I don't want to sound like

  really like like a personal experience

  you want to pry yeah I don't want to

  like say like more at one with a nature

  or something like that where I'm gonna

  embarrass myself but where it doesn't

  feel like it's just something for CNN to

  put another counter on the screen for

  right it's inevitable when something

  happens in America it's gonna get like

  hyped to death

  like whenever the Olympics are in

  America they're never as good because

  the Olympics are like this exotic

  sporting event when I was growing up the

  Olympics of this amazing thing in

  countries you could never dream of

  visiting and you can't even say their

  names properly and then whenever the

  Olympics goes to America it's just like

  their Super Bowl you know the Super Bowl

  of athletics comes a bit rubbish because

  as much as I love America and Americans

  they kind of you know they have this way

  about things they have this way about

  them right that's probably the best way

  to say it Brady so they even turned the

  Eclipse into like the Super Bowl of

  astronomy it had to be the eclipse of

  the century this is the world champion

  of eclipses it's like it's you know it's

  just it's a it's an eclipse I know you

  haven't heard one for a while and you're

  right to want to go out and watch it but

  yeah calm down calm down I'm feeling

  like the inevitable name of this podcast

  should be eclipse of the century perhaps

  that's a bit too mean like that's gonna

  set terrible expectations for the

  listeners if they see eclipses of the

  century are you telling me that the Nile

  and gay flag has been sent into space

  and you're gonna make this podcast name

  about the eclipse you know what it is


  it's the podcast of the century that's

  what it is I think you've called it

  because us sending that flag into space

  was pretty amazing and there's more good

  stuff to come podcast of the century it

  is there we go then

  by the way I just wanted to bring up a

  little quick thing we talked in the last

  episode about positioning your icons on

  your iPhone because I've now got this

  massive screen where the plus the plus

  screen yet so I was talking to my wife

  about and I saying how I'm gonna move

  Twitter and all my regularly used icons

  down lower so I can get to them more

  easily and I said you know and then you

  know our muscle memory where they are

  eventually and everything will be back

  to normal and she told me something she

  does that I didn't know she did and is

  really interesting and I thought you

  would find interesting and that is every

  few days or so she moves her icons for

  things she gets a little bit addicted to

  like Twitter and Instagram so they're

  not always in the same place so she

  doesn't get that muscle memory so she

  actually thinks about it like do I

  really want to open Twitter yet again do

  I really want to browse Instagram like

  to actually put a barrier to finding it

  to stop her opening it all the time out

  of force of habit and I found that I

  didn't know she did it and I found it

  fascinating and I thought it was a

  really clever idea that is a really

  great idea yeah it's a really

  interesting idea because I mean you know

  my attack to this is to take everything

  off my phone except the absolute bare

  minimum of what I need probably I think

  you would say definitely to a level at

  which it inconveniences the other people

  who have to interact with me yes yes

  from Brady there without a doubt because

  I make my phone as inert an object as

  possible that does his few functions

  it's possible right that shall we say is

  not a strategy for everyone that's like

  that's one step away from cutting off

  your fingers to stop yourself using a

  pepper what I feel is is the inevitable

  is it's like this is how it starts and

  it ends in a cabin in the woods with no

  Wi-Fi right like that's we all know

  that's where this is this is inevitably

  going but so I actually think this is

  this is a kind of brilliant strategy for

  a much less extreme take on it like you

  still want to have these things on your

  phone because they're useful and because

  you like them and because they bring

  entertainment into your life but it is

  so easy to mindlessly just go to them

  and to not really to have that like

  lizard part of your brain way

  up and think what's on Twitter and it

  just goes and it looks and you don't

  quite consciously realize what's

  happening like that's a really great

  strategy and I think that's a really

  great option for you want to stay

  connected to the world like a normal

  person but still break that automatic

  reflex that you get over time and let's

  be honest is also a thing that many of

  these companies who want you to have

  their apps on your phone like they

  intentionally try to get you

  Skinner boxed into that habit of just

  opening kind of thoughtlessly so you you

  are you do have a bit of an antagonist

  in the form of some of those apps I

  think that's a really great idea is it a

  strategy that you're going to adopt I

  don't know yeah I don't know I'm a bit

  of a mess with my phone at the moment

  like I've repositioned the icons and I'm

  not happy and I'm not happy with my

  phone life at the moment and I don't

  want to share it up because I think it's

  a bit of a boring thing to talk about

  repeatedly I've just I haven't found a

  happy place with my new phone and my

  icon positioning and you think this is a

  boring topic I'll tell you no no

  actually like for me I kind of think it

  is a bit of a boring topic but for some

  reason it's it's a topic that lots of

  people can't move away from people love

  this topic in a way that I find is

  weirdly intense and obsessive but I am

  with you 100% about this again simply

  because I'm running the beta on my phone

  so it changed a bunch of things about

  how and where different apps need to be

  but I'm with you like I am it I'm at a

  place where I feel veryuncertain with

  where different apps go and how

  everything is going to be arranged you

  know you know how when your house isn't

  quite right like you haven't unpacked

  boxes or a room is messy and stuff and

  like you've got other things to do but

  just knowing that room is messy is

  messing your mind I'm having that about

  my phone at the moment every time I

  think about my phone I just feel this

  like I'm really unhappy because I know

  it's it's not serving me well and the

  screens too big I may have made a


  I don't know the screen is definitely

  too big like this is an example of with

  a screen being too big causing me a

  problem right mm-hmm

  when you make a snapchat video like you

  hold down the button to make the video

  and to release the button like on screen

  the on screen video button like

  to take your thumb off ur involves

  having to change your grip on the phone

  because your thumb holding the video

  button is part of your grip on the phone

  so when you lift that thumb off the

  screen and you're using one hand right

  you no longer have the same grip on the

  phone so the phone kind of drops and

  slips and moves and that is the last

  half a second of your snapchat video

  which you then can't edit because you

  can't add up snapchat videos now so

  every snapchat video I make ends with

  the camera - suddenly jerking for half a

  second as I lift my thumb off the video

  right it's just little things like that

  it's annoying and these devices are with

  us all the time and it's like a thing

  that you have to deal with with all day

  long I'm with you 100% to better that

  it's it's like having part of your house

  not in order

  yeah it's worse than that because it's a

  thing that you end up opening and

  looking at so many times I should have

  stuck with the small phone because the

  other thing I thought would happen in my

  head I thought having this big phone

  would give me a battery that would last

  for weeks I think I fell into the hype

  that you get better battery life hmm so

  still when I look down at my battery and

  yet again I'm in the red I'm like what I

  thought I've got this big ginormous

  phone I'd have more battery life and

  still my batteries always buddy empty

  God's sake I thought at least I was

  buying more battery life ya know you're

  never winning this race it's absolutely

  frustrating gray I'm calling it yeah end

  of phone conversation done if this is

  gonna be the podcast of the century we

  can't have this much phone talk in it so

  gray I think it's fitting that you

  decided to call this episode podcast of

  the century mm-hmm because I have

  launched a new podcast I thought maybe

  you were paying me in an immense

  compliment I swear I didn't set that up

  that was entirely your idea to call it

  podcast and century you did not set that

  up that was redoing that yeah so you

  have started you've launched a new

  podcast Brady and yep if I may say so my

  own personal experience of this is it's

  about time I feel like ever since we did

  the first 10 episodes and then hello

  internet has continued on since then I

  have been waiting it felt just so so

  inevitable that you would launch a

  podcast at some point and I would

  mention this to you

  over the years and you would say no no

  I'm too busy I can't possibly do a

  podcast I would say that's okay I'll

  just wait I'll wait for the day that

  inevitably occurs

  well now it's here it's finally here

  Brady it is here and I have to say of

  all the people who have been encouraging

  me to do it

  bordering on pressuring me to do it gray

  has been top of the list it's something

  you've really been encouraging me to do

  for a long time oh yeah so if you think

  that like I've sticked off behind Gray's

  back you couldn't be further from the

  truth he's forever telling me he thought

  it was something I should do and has

  been very encouraging and helpful so

  Brady do you want to pitch the people on

  what your podcast is about well before I

  tell you tell you about and the name of

  it I have to quickly tell you about my

  co-host or vice host yeah what's his

  name his name is Tim no and it's not a

  joke it's not a joke as his real name

  he's one of my best friends and has been

  for a very long time he lives in

  Australia and his real name is Tim so

  while this podcast has no you know links

  with hello Internet it's just it's just

  a separate thing that I'm doing

  occasionally in my spare time the

  co-host is code Tim and this has caused

  much amusement so there you go you can

  make what you will of that it's a

  podcast I'm doing with my friend Tim and

  the name of it is the unmade podcast and

  the pitch of it is so far you never know

  what direction of podcast is gonna end

  up going no but so far the idea is in

  each episode we discuss ideas for

  podcasts that would be fun to make and

  then we talk about each other's ideas

  and whether we think they're good ideas

  or bad ideas and it's supposed to be

  funny so sometimes it's a serious idea

  more often than not there's silly ideas

  and we each pitch two ideas to each

  other per episode and then we just chat

  about them and joke around and see where

  the conversation goes and it's been

  quite good fun to make so unmade podcast

  because their podcasts that will

  probably always be unmade it's a tea is

  Brady it's an eternal teas for these

  podcasts that people are going to want

  can I do a little bit of a spoiler for

  the first episode just related to this

  you can the first episode came out

  before we're recording so hopefully some

  people have actually listened to it yeah

  it came

  but yesterday day before yesterday when

  ya recording timeline here hmm so I've

  listened to the first episode and the

  t's think about I actually got a preview

  I got to hurt here in early and early

  cut you did you had exclusive first

  listen I felt very privileged with that

  you actually listened to it before it

  was properly cut down to size they say

  you heard it when it was still a little

  bit ugly but that's okay I didn't think

  it was ugly

  no but there's a funny thing here so the

  segment that you have at the very end is

  where your co-host suggests the idea of

  a Groundhog Day podcast in which you

  were going to discuss Groundhog Day

  every day mm-hmm and and I told you at

  the time that's a hilarious topic

  because it's not viously such a terrible


  mm-hmm but I have to listen to that show

  it's one of these things like that idea

  keeps haunting me I keep thinking about

  the Groundhog Day podcast and I feel

  like there is nothing more that I want

  than to hear you do a Groundhog Day Park

  like I can't let this idea go yeah and I

  feel like this is what the podcast maybe

  is just getting teased about shows that

  are not going to be made because it

  would be crazy for you to make the

  Groundhog Day podcast yeah but I I

  cannot let it go I keep coming back to

  this idea of every day you're doing a

  podcast about the movie Groundhog Day

  it's fantastic say another idea that

  came up in that first episode was one

  that I suggested called I called a

  podcast ology and every episode you

  discuss a different ology so it could be

  biology or proctology or entomology and

  that sort of thing and it was more of a

  serious idea we joked around about it

  was a serious idea and seriously the

  number of people who've contacted me

  saying like yeah we like the unmade

  podcast ready but whatever you do you

  have to start that ology one that's one

  we really want to hear so I think you're

  right I think like as we throw these

  ideas around we're gonna get a lot of

  people saying that's actually probably a

  podcast you should make which is like

  maybe it's nice that they think that I

  have to say though like to be a bit

  better about it

  mmm obviously I think about the episodes

  beforehand and think I'll what ideas am

  I gonna have and I always try I want

  them to be funny so I always come up

  with some ridiculous stupid idea that

  could never be a podcast and I just sit

  around thinking about it and within an


  I've reshaped it in my head and tweaked

  it and thought about to a point where I

  think you know what this actually would

  be a really good podcast and no matter

  how stupid the idea is I always end up

  thinking that is stupid but that should

  probably get made I'd be pretty good you

  know I just I'm just realizing now

  somehow this had not occurred to me

  before this very moment but it somehow

  seems inevitable that the person who has

  so many projects that he runs would end

  up doing a podcast about an infinite

  possibility of potential projects that's

  what happened great when when to

  what happened great when when to

  when I were discussing what are we going

  to do a podcast about we had three or

  four ideas and we kept changing the idea

  because each day we thought we had a

  better idea and it got to a point where

  I was saying you know all these ideas

  are so interesting that we're talking

  about why don't we just make the podcast

  about all the ideas we're having for a

  podcast so that's what we're doing I

  have had a couple of little observations

  I wanted to share though there's

  something I wanted to say about it

  because hello Internet you run the show

  on hello Internet and you do all the

  behind-the-scenes stuff and run all the

  technical stuff and I've actually always

  been quite oblivious to it so I've had

  to learn how to do all that stuff cuz

  I'm running this new one and it has made

  me realize a few things and it has made

  me feel like I need to make like a small

  apology to you because like to make the

  apology I will first have to admit to a

  slightly uncharitable thought I had

  about you mmm-hmm and that was before we

  started like working together properly

  and we were just friends and I watched

  your videos I always thought that you

  were this really like accurate

  meticulous guy because your videos are

  all about you know really good accurate

  explaining things that are researched

  and the videos are all so well prepared

  and well executed so I had this image of

  you okay and that's where this apology

  is going okay well when we started

  working together more and I started

  having more communication with you but

  also you started doing like hello

  internet stuff I would like occasionally

  find little things like a little typo or

  something that I thought was a little

  bit sloppy like a space missing or there

  should be a you know just little tiny

  things that I had little details that I

  thought weren't perfect mm-hmm and I

  thought you know you know fair enough

  that's okay I've now realized that when

  you are doing a podcast and you were

  doing all this stuff behind the scenes

  on hello Internet it is such a Fafi job

  mm-hmm there are so many different

  little things to do there are so many

  bowls to keep in the air at once so many

  little fields and things you have to

  fill out and bits and pieces to do that

  those little mistakes that I thought you

  were making because you just weren't

  paying attention to detail that was not

  the case at all there's just too much to

  do and like it just gets away from you

  all this stuff really quickly like I'm

  sure it will become more routine in time

  but at the moment I'm finding

  all the stuff you do on the technical

  side of a podcast is really like I feel

  like a duck really paddling really fast

  underwater so all those times when

  you've made a little mistake here or

  there in a webpage and I was texting you

  saying gray I think you need to fix this

  on that webpage because it doesn't look

  absolutely perfect I take all that back

  I now realize what you were doing and

  you did a very good job so apologies for

  those thoughts

  thank you I accept your apology for your

  silent thoughts all right but now you do

  see why I made originally like a hundred

  point here's all the switches you need

  to flip and all those things that you

  need to do it is you use the right word

  it is a remarkably Fafi job with just a

  like a whole bunch of picky little

  things that are really easy to forget

  when you're launching a podcast so now

  that you are at the helm of your other

  show this burden of responsibility falls

  on you as the captain of that show a

  couple more little observations one is

  just and this is something that's true

  for any project but I've just been

  reminded of it because I haven't started

  like a new project since objectivity

  how long has objectivity been running

  now well over two years somehow that

  makes me feel really old and it's

  reminded me how all-consuming and what a

  narcotic it can be tada

  do like something new hmm like because

  the unmade podcast is like it's taken us

  seriously I'm not joking here it's taken

  us a year to record a few episodes

  because we're both so busy so I'm not

  sure what the future of this podcast is

  if it's gonna be just a few episodes

  occasionally or it's gonna be regular at

  the moment regular looks difficult but

  maybe it will be I hope it will be but

  just doing something new and putting

  something new out there it's really

  exciting and it's really all consuming

  and even though like I'm making no money

  from it and I shouldn't be doing it and

  I should be like doing all my projects

  that are like my job right like it just

  takes up a disproportionate amount of

  your headspace when you do something new

  and that's like voluntary because it's

  such a drug to be creating something new

  and it's such a nice feeling so I have

  enjoyed putting something new out just I

  mean I still enjoy every new episode of

  Hello internet and every new episode of

  numberphile and every new episode of

  everything I do but the whole project

  being new is like another level up isn't

  it yeah there is a very very different


  if someone searches back through my

  Twitter history I think I made a comment

  exactly along these lines when we

  launched hello Internet

  about how it's so exciting and different

  to launch a new project into the world

  it's not like anything else it's not

  like uploading videos to your existing

  channel it's not like continuing to

  produce episodes of a thing that you

  already do this is also why I think that

  in the world of just being people who

  have to create things for a living the

  other side of this is that you do have a

  kind of siren song of new projects

  always attracting you away from your

  current work because of that excitement

  I'm glad that you're being able to

  experience that and I'm particularly

  shocked to realize that it has been two

  years since you did that with

  objectivity The Brady in my head is

  always just spawning new channels

  constant I think it's getting closer to

  three years there's like a hundred and

  twenty other episodes so let's not say

  that let's just say - let's just say -

  I'll feel better about that yeah another

  thing I noticed the idea of this podcast

  as we've said is just to come up with

  ideas for podcasts and we usually give

  them a name and I find this very easy

  coming up with ideas and giving them a

  name but do you know what's funny what

  an incredibly difficult process it was

  to actually name this podcast it was so

  difficult like every other idea I have

  in the show I give it a name like just

  off the top of my head straight away and

  just seems like a natural fit and I'm

  usually pretty happy with it but this

  was really difficult as you know cuz I

  was I was lamenting to you coming up

  with the name you seemed pretty

  desperate and I message about names it

  was such a heard show to name the

  branding of it and the look of it was

  quite easy cuz I got like really good

  artists to do it the branding was easy

  because you didn't do that part yeah and

  also he did double the branding based on

  earlier name and then I called him up

  and said no we're not doing that name so

  he had to start again but anyway it was

  very hard to name how did you name hello

  Internet cuz that was your idea we

  bounced around ideas a little bit you

  know forever ago about naming the

  podcast but it was mainly like we kind

  of knew that the show wasn't going to be

  about anything in particular so we had

  to pick a name that wasn't really

  anything in particular I'm not sure that

  hello internet is the best name for this

  show as it currently exists but it

  doesn't matter because especially with a

  show like this one

  the name just becomes the thing as long

  as it the name doesn't have some

  specific meaning then it just becomes

  what it is hello Internet is the name of

  this show even if for someone who's a

  new listener does that name make any

  sense like it doesn't really but it just

  is what it is cuz I was having this

  discussion I was discussing with my wife

  and I was saying am I worrying too much

  about the name I said the same thing I

  said you know the show if the show's

  good that's what matters and then the

  name just fits the show yeah without a

  doubt and I even said to her I mean look

  at hello Internet that's not a

  particularly good name and that's become

  very successful and she said hello Anton

  it's a really good name and I had never

  thought of it as a good name before so I

  think it's just a name I wouldn't say

  that it's a particularly good name I

  think it ends up having really good

  associations for the people who listen

  to the show because they like the show

  and then that's the name I think the

  name only matters if you're trying to

  really be about a specific thing and

  capture the audience for that thing they

  give you were launching a new podcast

  talking about all of the exciting new

  economies of scale in outer space and

  you wanted people who are really into

  that kind of thing to listen to your

  show then you need to have a title that

  describes what that show is about you

  know mining for cheaper and outer space

  podcast show right that's the name you

  need so that people know what it

  actually is but I think for for these

  cut like for two dudes talking kinds of

  shows it doesn't really matter what the

  name I think I'm just running through my

  mental list of the shows that I listen

  to that are you know maybe ostensibly

  about a thing or ostensibly have a

  format but are really just about liking

  who the hosts are none of those names

  really matter none of them are really

  descriptive about what the show is and

  it doesn't make any difference because

  you're listening for the people you're

  not listening for the specific yeah

  content the unmade podcast does have a

  bit more of a format than Halloween

  snare though it does but ultimately I

  like from having listened to the first

  episode and of course we know better

  than anybody like shows aren't what they

  start as necessarily they grow and they

  become their own thing it has more of a

  format but ultimately again it that is a

  show that at least from the first

  episode strikes me as very much as it is

  the conversation between the two of you

  is the thing

  which is also why like when we were

  talking on iMessage I was in the same

  camp as your wife of you need to pick a

  name but the name is not going to make

  or break the show the content is the

  thing that's going to do that mm-hmm I'd

  like to ask you to because I have been

  expectant and sort of harassing you

  about when are you going to finally do a

  podcast yeah is there something that

  made this finally happened now as

  opposed to a year ago like is there a

  series of events that brought this into

  being or was it something that you just

  decided now was the time that you you

  wanted to do this basically what took so

  long we started a year ago I'm not

  joking it actually I looked at the day

  and I think the first one we recorded

  was actually a year ago this month hmm

  and just recently we recorded our third

  episode that we're happy with I didn't

  want to release a podcast like one

  episode and then never released another

  one I wanted to have three made mm-hmm

  so that even if people aren't that into

  it so it doesn't become a thing I could

  release three like a trilogy mmm

  so I didn't want to release it until I

  had made three and at the very least so

  now that there's three I feel like okay

  now let's see what people think and if

  they like it we'll make more and if they

  don't like it well or at least three and

  people can enjoy those three episodes as

  a thing that I did once with my mate

  mm-hmm that's really what the tipping

  point was and also to get to a point

  where I was thinking if I don't do this

  I'll never do it I had someone make a

  youtube video recently that was of

  something I'd been planning to do for

  about two years and I could have done

  two years ago and I hadn't and they

  released a video and I was like you

  can't just sit on stuff you idiot yeah

  if you want to do things do things maybe

  that catalyzed me to in some way I'm not

  sure I'm gonna think come on do crap

  Brady so so we've put it out there yeah

  because you certainly don't do enough as

  it is you better get off your body for

  some more well I'm gonna see what

  happens but thank you for letting me

  discuss it in such depth here and how

  their internet oh yeah but I'm very

  happy that it's out there and and I

  think people should go listen go give it

  a try yeah unmade dot FM and may FM

  that's right and that's as good a jump

  off point is anyway and that's got all

  the links and it's I think you can

  search for it now on some of the usual

  places so don't like stop listening to

  hello internet now but maybe at the end

  of the show go and check it out

  if you've got an idea something you want

  to do in business or maybe just for fun

  you're almost certainly gonna need a web

  domain it could be a classic with

  something like dot-com or.net or maybe

  dot F M for a podcast or you might want

  something zany like dot dog for that new

  pet walking business dot poker for that

  card sharp consultancy or dot space for

  your new asteroid mining enterprise

  whatever your grand plan don't sit

  around waiting for someone else to get

  all the best names go to Harvard calm

  and reserved one right now I've been

  using hover quite a bit over the last

  week launching a new podcast and I have

  to say I've yet again been super

  impressed by what a pleasure it is to

  use super easy to search for what's

  available and then buying the name all

  for yourself is done in just a few

  clicks from there everything else you

  might want to do managing the domains is

  so smooth and and this is me talking

  it's idiot-proof I've been able to

  divert domains I've reserved other sites

  or link them with services like

  Squarespace and just a few super simple

  and well explained steps they've got

  this thing called hover connect which

  does it all for you I wish this had been

  around like 10 years ago when I was

  practically crying myself to sleep every

  night trying to understand domain names

  hover has all the good stuff you'd want

  like free who is privacy and great

  customer support go to hover calm /h I

  for 10 percent of your first purchase

  that's hover.com /h I al thanks to hover

  for supporting this episode and by the

  way if my Australian English hybrid

  pronunciation of hover is confusing

  that's hover for you Americans spell it

  h o v ER like a hovercraft we have a

  topic Brady that we want to talk about

  but I feel like I have just spent this

  afternoon in preparation for catching up

  on a whole big story that I was dimly

  aware existed which is this

  lawsuit that has been taking place

  between h3h3 a big popular content

  creator on YouTube and another much

  smaller YouTube channel over copyright

  infringement and I feel like since I

  have caught up on this thing all at once

  I'm not really sure how to explain the

  timeline or how to explain this whole

  event to the listeners

  do you've any idea how to how to

  summarize this for everybody I only

  found out about it yesterday as well

  okay you're not up on your YouTube news


  no no I'm surprisingly bad and stuff

  like this hmm but obviously this h3h3

  people made this video really taking the

  piss out of this other video mm-hm and

  they showed lots of clips from it but

  then they also cut to themselves taking

  the mickey out of it yeah h3h3 would

  describe this as a reaction video they

  use that language themselves I thought

  it was beyond a reaction video myself I

  think it was more than that like to me a

  reaction video is just people watching

  things going Oh gross haha that's funny

  but they like took this one to pieces

  like they did a real job on him I mean

  calling this a reaction video is like

  calling what I'd let immediate did to

  style was a reaction video like I think

  this was more in that genre of like a

  really harsh critique and it wasn't just

  like passively reacting to it though I

  think it was probably quite fair the

  other guy didn't they went to court

  hdhd have one there's been this

  judgement in which the judge has said

  this was not defamatory because which

  was also part of the lawsuit and this

  was fair use this was fair criticism

  which is being hailed as a big victory

  for fair use but the judge also said in

  like a footnote in the judgement while

  this is fair use I'm not applying this

  to the other sort of brand of reaction

  videos where people are more just

  watching and really is using the content

  so the judge herself has basically said

  there are two types of reaction videos

  those that I think are fair use and

  those that I'm not commenting on which

  reading between the lines says I don't

  think a fair use interesting I feel like

  I'm I have a

  a little bit of a different subjective

  take on it I think if you imagine

  there's a spectrum and in my head I

  picked the red letter media thing as an

  example of one extreme end of the

  spectrum yes taking out the word react

  videos for a moment there is this

  question of you want to make a video

  about something that somebody else has

  made they've made a YouTube video or

  maybe they have made Star Wars whatever

  it is you want to make a video about a

  thing that somebody else has made on one

  end of the spectrum is what I think is

  the worst and awful is the pure react

  video which as you were saying before is

  somebody just puts a webcam on their

  face and you see them watching a thing

  they watch the thing in its entirety and

  the worst of them say very little or

  just chuckle or make facial expressions

  and do almost nothing yeah that's one

  end of the spectrum and then on the

  other end of the spectrum I think you

  you have something like red letter media

  as a perfect example of yeah they have

  taken Star Wars they've used an enormous

  amount of footage from it but they have

  essentially made an entirely brand-new

  thing yes that and they're like that is

  the clearest case of fair use that can

  possibly exist and then the react the

  pure react video is the absolute worst

  use case that there possibly is yeah and

  something like what h3h3 made is in

  between those two extremes it's not red

  letter media but it's also not them just

  filming their faces doing nothing

  my personal subjective take is that it's

  closer to the pure reaction video than

  it is to the red letter media end of

  that spectrum hmm but ultimately that is

  a subjective call like if I was a judge

  I would say I would say what they did

  was fair use but it feels to me like

  it's much closer to the pure react end

  of the spectrum where it's like if we

  turn this dial down a lot more then it

  starts becoming a little bit of a gray

  area that at least that's that's my

  particular feel for it

  I mean I agree there is like this

  blurred spectrum and I think your two

  extreme ends are correct

  I watched the h3h

  a video that caused the whole kerfuffle

  hmm and I thought you know I think he's

  sued because they were taking the piss

  out of him and if they'd said this was a

  magnificent video mm-hmm he wouldn't

  have sued so really he got he's knows

  how to join but the thing I think

  decided at and I think it's kind of what

  the judge said as well was does this

  video become like a replacement or

  substitute for watching the original

  like if you'd liked this guy what's his

  name who's or whatever his name is if

  you'd liked this guy who made the

  original video and you liked his stuff

  could you have gone on to h3h3 and watch

  that instead to replace the experience

  and certainly you couldn't do that

  because they chopped it to pieces they

  were stopping at all the time they were

  belittling it you know you wouldn't get

  the same experience whereas if you just

  played the video and put yourself down

  in the bottom corner pulling faces and

  going whoa

  then you have replaced the experience

  you don't have to watch both it's funny

  that you pick that up because I actually

  took down the exact quote that the judge

  wrote because I thought this is an

  interesting part of it so again h3h3

  took this person's video they played

  clips of it paused it then talked about

  what had just happened on screen you

  know and played clips of it right there

  and they're making fun of and commenting

  on the video and again like mock Regan

  and commentary is exactly what the whole

  idea of fair use is for like you're

  commenting on a thing so the quote from

  the judge is because the Cline h3h3

  video does not offer a substitute for

  the original hmm it does not substitute

  a market that properly belongs to the

  copyright holder yeah so like we have

  discussed on previous shows there's also

  this idea with fair use of have you

  taken away the markets that the original

  thing was created for like God are you

  substituting the thing and what I think

  is really interesting is though I

  watched the h3h3 video making fun of

  this guy and they're funny like they're

  very likeable and they do a good job of

  ripping apart this guy's thing but when

  I watched it what I thought is I want to

  go now find the original video and I

  want to watch that because partly what I

  was curious is it's very hard to tell

  when you're watching someone who's cut


  a thing how much of the thing is missing

  right now like how much is this is clips

  versus how much of it is the original

  thing so I went back and I watched the

  original video mm-hmm and it's hard to

  say I'd love to see someone actually do

  a little timeline but I feel like they

  probably used 70% of the original thing

  and yet it's interesting cuz I was like

  I'm looking at this judge's decision and

  I agree like it does not substitute for

  the original but I think what is

  crossing my mind is it's almost like

  YouTube is creating a new concept in the

  world which is like the idea of fair use

  was originally created for this idea of

  like if you watch the red letter media

  review of Star Wars does that substitute

  for watching the Star Wars movie itself

  obviously not right because they're two

  totally different experiences and

  watching the h3h3 video I totally agree

  with the judge like it doesn't

  substitute the original markets that

  belongs to the original copyright holder

  like if you like that guy's videos

  watching h3h3 is nothing like watching

  his videos without their commentary

  they're two totally different things

  yeah but there is this idea that's

  creeping into my head that watching the

  h3h3 video it doesn't substitute for the

  original but it does obviate the need to

  watch the original hmmm because I was

  just aware of watching the original one

  it's like I feel I have totally seen

  this yeah yeah it doesn't substitute but

  it does kind of remove something because

  I've only just been think about this

  this afternoon I'm not saying they're

  like oh that so the case should have

  been decided in a different way like I

  completely agree with the way the case

  was decided and thank God for everybody

  on YouTube but it was decided this way

  hmmm but I just keep I have the little

  wedge in my mind that I keep thinking

  there is this idea that this this

  concept of fair use was written in a

  very different environment than it is

  being applied now and it's like I feel

  like there's that there's an additional

  subtlety to the idea of substitution as

  a test for fair use that is being pulled

  out by this case in my mind because I

  really do think that the h3h3 video

  obviates the need to watch the original

  which is a new concept in the world at

  least that's how it feels to me this

  finding as well that's being hired by

  youtubers everywhere as a really good

  thing for them could come back to bite

  them on the backside because if all your

  mail on lines and other video stealing

  freebooters of the world can turn this

  to their advantage

  suddenly you know all your best YouTube

  videos are going to end up on the mail

  online website and they're gonna say oh

  no it's that's you know fair use or

  we're not taking your market away

  because we have a whole different

  demographic or right right taking your

  market away because we've made some

  changes to it that you weren't willing

  to make like we made it short we're

  catering to people who like short

  45-second clips you're catering to

  people who like 15-minute in depth

  science things like it does open a door

  that people may think twice about later

  I completely agree and the thing that I

  keep thinking of is take the kinds of

  videos that we make like educational

  videos there's this whole world of

  YouTube that I'm just not really

  comfortable with which is this kind of

  area that is is it's not the pure react

  videos but it's sort of that where

  somebody takes somebody else's video and

  just plays most of it but pauses it and

  then talks and then plays most of it and

  pauses it and talks like it's very

  parasitic isn't it I mean this guy who

  made the video that got which I didn't

  think was very good but he he made a lot

  of effort and he made a creation and

  these people didn't really create much

  they just sat there and watched it and

  talked about it and you could say well

  their creation was their wit and their

  intellect and their all their satire

  they brought to it but I still think one

  person has like you know built the

  pyramid and the other person has just

  said your pyramids crap mm-hmm and

  they're both getting the same reward as

  if they both built a pyramid mm-hmm

  there is definitely something to that

  and I'm aware that this world of YouTube

  where people play other people's videos

  pause comment and continue to play and

  pause comment again I'm not a I'm not a

  judge here I'm not like the god of

  copyright but my feeling is if you use

  100% of the other person's video and

  only do the pause play pause I feel like

  for me personally I would not rule that

  as fair

  which is why in my head the h3h3 video

  it almost sets like the limit for what

  is it that I would consider is fair use

  but is getting very close to the edge of

  what is not fair use because I feel like

  if you watch their video and you watch

  the original there's so much of the

  original in there and they're playing it

  all in chronological order and just

  pausing and commenting they can such an

  interesting legal case but it is it is

  like it's setting a minimum bar of what

  do I agree with but I feel like you're

  coming real close to the edge of what is

  actually the fair use and and I could

  see a lot of people getting upset when

  like you said other people can start

  using big big chunks of their video and

  and playing the game of how little

  commentary can we possibly add while

  still considering this to be fair use

  and it's like oh we haven't substituted

  for your market because watching our

  video with our comments is not the same

  as watching your video but that's where

  I mean like I feel like I have this idea

  that there's like an additional concept

  here with fair use in the internet world

  that needs some exploration and I don't

  even know what directions that

  exploration would take there is one

  thing I will say that I think is the

  unambiguous great part about this case

  so like well the copyright part is a bit

  like ooh I'm happy about it but it's a

  bit of a less certain that it's going to

  be great for youtubers kind of thing the

  part that I do think is fantastic is is

  the part of the case which is about

  defamation and that is the thing that

  could have been really bad for all

  youtubers where the lawsuit it seems

  like a big part of it was the idea that

  they aren't just commenting on the other

  guy's video they're making fun of him

  yeah and then it's it's like does making

  fun of someone on the Internet is this

  going to be an example that we can say

  here is the bar where we set what

  defamation is and that defamation is

  making fun of someone's parkour skills

  on the Internet right like is that

  defamation or saying that like the

  treatment of characters in his video is


  like is that defamation now the judge

  had some funny language that they go

  over in their video about how it's like

  it is so clearly not defamation to make

  fun of someone on the Internet and that

  is a door that I'm very glad was more

  clearly closed in this case we haven't

  opened the door wider to what is the

  minimum bar for being able to sue

  someone for defamation because if this

  video was defamatory then it's like we

  have opened a Pandora's box of crazy for

  for what is acceptable or what is not

  acceptable content on the internet so

  that to me is is the best and the

  clearest wind out of this case by far so

  great another youtubey thing which has

  been in my life the last few days is

  this thing where YouTube are flagging

  videos that they think unsuitable for

  full advertising though automatically if

  this is done automatically

  videos are flagged as potentially being

  unsuitable for certain advertisers so

  they'll serve no advertising or very

  limited advertising against it I feel

  like there was a an asteroid called the

  ad pocalypse which crossed the sky of

  our YouTube planets and it is forever

  continuing to rain down chunks of it

  upon the earth this is yet another chunk

  of this is YouTube fairly recently in

  introducing some AI machine learning

  BOTS that are trying to scan the video

  for content and automatically determine

  advertiser friendliness or not I mean

  I've got a lot of videos on YouTube as

  you know and I haven't been particularly

  affected by this but in the last few

  days I've just noticed on a few of my

  lesser channels I had a whole bunch of

  videos flagged for her did you get a

  notification about them being flagged or

  did you manually look I manually looked

  well okay so I went had a look and I

  found some and I can sort of see why

  some of them maybe were flagged

  automatically because of the headline

  like I'll give you a give you an example

  of some that were flagged I did one

  about viagra which is actually about a

  chemistry of how viagra works there's no

  sexual content it is literally about

  chemistry do you say what the purpose of

  Viagra is is it hinted at in a playful

  manner hardly at all no

  in a way that's unsuitable okay another

  one called making nanoparticles in

  supercritical water right which is a

  really boring science II thing there was

  one that got flagged which has kind of

  amused me because it was one that it was

  a funny film that was unlisted that

  Destin and I made years ago called in

  the YouTube Mossad room because they

  have a Mossad room for staff in YouTube

  and we made a funny video pretending

  that I was giving Destin the message and

  we were being secretly that's wildly

  inappropriate for work however but yeah

  I remember that one anyway I don't care

  it got flagged another one's just called

  Subutai mole and asthma again you know

  just a technical video about how a

  certain chemical is used to treat asthma

  and then on my second numberphile

  channel where I have extras my big

  channels this doesn't seem to have

  happened on but on my secondary

  numberphile channel called numberphile -

  I had some extra footage for this big

  video I did about derangements which are

  as mathematical thing liked arrangements

  are like permutations and it's just a

  boring mathematical thing and this video

  was called derangement extra footage on

  numberphile and you can ask for a manual

  review so I asked for manual reviews on

  all of these videos I don't think I did

  on the message one but I asked for a

  manual review on all of them and of all

  of them

  the derangement one within two seconds

  of watching her it's James grime with a

  piece of brown paper doing math

  equations talking about these things

  called arrangements and permutations and

  arranging cards in certain order and so

  while we've been talking I have got an

  email back from YouTube saying hi

  numberphile - after manually reviewing

  your video we've confirmed that it isn't

  suitable for all advertisers Wow as a

  result it will continue to run limited

  or no ads so they give a reason I use it

  too boring for most advertisers is that

  the reason is that's gonna shut down all

  of numberphile so he confirmed that your

  video is snore tastic and advertisers

  are uninterested he's quiet

  you know if you don't like mathematics

  okay but there is no way that it is

  unsuitable if this has been manually


  I am absolutely flabbergasted

  I mean it's had 66 thousand views and

  like it's not gonna make lots and lots

  of money and this isn't about money

  you know if they shut down all my videos

  fair enough you know it's not that it's

  just that I kind of put a toe in the

  water here and thought haha that's funny

  the system's a bit broken I'll go for

  the manual review right and the manual

  reviews broken so suddenly I'm thinking

  hang on what's going on here

  unless this video is going to take a

  very dramatic turn at some at some point

  in I have to admit later on there is a

  part where he does say n factorial take

  n factorial over 1 factorial plus in

  effect or over 2 factorial take n effect

  whoa whoa calm down well down there

  Brady I'm kind of a little bit outraged

  why do you feel outraged because they're

  now saying they manually review them and

  they think it's not suitable mm-hmm and

  that makes me think the manual review

  like the checks and balances aren't

  working so your frustration is that the

  system is broken I don't mind that it

  got flagged because derangement is a

  word that I could see could have other

  meanings right you know that they're

  concerned about I can see why maybe I

  mean I don't know why the main video

  which is also called arrangement on the

  main channel wasn't flagged maybe

  numberphile has protected status and

  it's a some white listed channel and

  maybe numberphile 2 is seen because it's

  a smaller channel it hasn't got those

  protections but I would also just posit

  here that like when people have

  conversations about what the YouTube

  algorithm does or or any of these

  machine learning systems that there are

  non human understandable reasons why

  these things occur that's just a part of

  the way yeah these systems work is that

  even if you were able to peer directly

  into the code there may be no human

  understandable explanation as to why due

  to similar videos end up with different

  results but that is precisely why say a

  human manual review is a necessary part

  of the process and it is not encouraging

  that it does not work no I've had my

  human manual review and unless yeah like

  you say unless there's something about

  that video other than I I'm a little bit

  I'm a little bit upset about it

  and like I said I'm not upset cuz of

  money I'm upset cuz it's wrong yeah well

  it's a it's upsetting as always with

  this YouTube stuff because it is a thing

  upon which like it's it's never about

  any one video but it is about the system

  upon which livelihoods depend that's why

  people always get real nervous when this

  stuff happens with YouTube so I have a

  question as someone who has gone through

  the manual review process hmm is there

  now a button that you can press that

  says you would like to appeal the manual

  review process no it only just says you

  can find more information about our

  advertiser friendly guidelines in our

  Help Center if they're going to have a

  manual review system at all I feel like

  it as a subjective experience as a user

  of YouTube it's incredibly infuriating

  to press a button that says hey human is

  going to look at this and you get a form

  letter back that explains nothing right

  that's just sent out thousands and

  thousands of times an hour I'm sure as a

  content creator the thing that I would

  want to have happen is when you press

  the manual review button maybe it comes

  back with the judgment that you don't

  want but it should also come back with a

  time stamp that says like here then a

  link to the policy that it is deemed

  that this violates I mean I can see how

  that would be very time consuming for

  the five people they've got doing the

  job but I just don't know what the

  person did like did the person not watch

  it did they just look at the headline

  the same as the algorithm did and think

  are derangement it must be about mental

  illness or something what did the manual

  person do the whole point of the manual

  process is to understand what the hell

  is going on like I'm very happy to use

  machine learning to do a whole bunch of

  sorting like I understand this like I

  said it is an intrinsic part of the

  machine learning that it is not

  understandable and so then when you're

  kicking it over into a human the whole

  benefit of the human side of the system

  is there is at least the possibility of

  understanding and and that a reason can

  be given but that's why a form letter

  back is frustrating because it's just oh

  it might as well have been a robot right

  like for all you know the appeal is just

  another like it's a peeled app which is

  doing a different algorithm to take a

  look at the videos

  yeah gives you no explanation of what is

  occurring like it's not unlikely that

  that's really genuinely possible right

  that it's just oh it's just a different

  system that we have and if the two

  systems agree then we say yes of course

  it's not friendly to all advertisers or

  whatever their their language is that

  they use they have used the word manual

  which is an interesting word to have

  chosen I mean what does menu were very

  meaning it it could just be a clockwork

  AI right that's that's what it is it's

  City right it's marbles and it's rubber

  bands but it's still they built a big

  machine somewhere that's watching the

  YouTube videos it's interesting that

  that you mentioned this because I've

  been hearing grumbles and grumbles about

  this this kind of content system or once

  you can it just seems like YouTube has a

  very hard time making a correct maneuver

  and I manually went through a bunch of

  my videos and I wanted to take a look Oh

  have I been caught by this because again

  it seems like people just get surprised

  like you don't get notifications that a

  thing has occurred and I look through my

  videos nothing has been flagged yet but

  you know who knows maybe I have to keep

  checking when they update their

  algorithm but coincidentally literally

  today as I was putting up the YouTube

  video for the previous episode that just

  went live for listeners hello internets

  number 86 banana republic that episode

  has the little badge next to it which

  says this video is not suitable for all

  advertisers review requested had you put

  something in the metadata or the

  description like was there a word in the

  show notes that would have flagged

  Tripta sister I mean I mean looking

  through the show notes there's nothing

  that I can think of maybe the word

  pirate we link to the hello Internet

  pirate flag is perhaps that's be

  rustling is maybe be rustling is a kind

  of thing that would scare off

  advertisers there's a link to Audrey

  perhaps her cuteness is so great that

  YouTube advertisers wouldn't want to

  compete with that kind of thing who

  knows who knows the reason why it feels

  kind of ridiculous that a that a podcast

  has been flagged up into the system I

  have pressed the manual review button

  and I can't wait to find out if we make

  it through the manual process whatever

  that means

  for this episode but good luck I don't

  know I feel like this is all just this

  endless mess that has come about since

  the ad pocalypse where YouTube is is

  trying to do things that are sort of

  undoable for appeasement reasons that I

  think might not be super valuable in the

  first place like it's a complicated

  unwinnable mass this whole thing it

  makes content creators really frustrated

  to not be able to understand why things

  have been demonetised and your

  experience of a manual review that is 0%

  and lightning is not encouraging this

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  think of all the news stories that have

  affected me mostly over the last week or

  two mm-hmm it has to be a story about

  Big Ben which if you're gonna be

  pedantic is the name of like oh no one

  cares no don't don't even give in to

  those people don't just ignore them just

  move right along Big Ben the tower yeah

  the big famous clock in London right

  what everybody thinks of as Big Ben the

  big famous clock but in fact the story

  is about Big Ben because it's about the

  Bell they're doing a big restoration job

  on the tower which I think it's called

  the Elizabeth tower that houses Big Ben

  it's the tower with the clock at the top

  so they need to do all this renovation

  and as a result the bells not gonna ring

  except like for very special occasions

  like New Year's even stuff like that so

  they're they're silencing the Bell and I

  thought fair enough you got to do your

  work you could you know I can imagine

  you've got to switch the Bell off and it

  just suddenly emerged that the Bell is

  going to be deactivated for like four


  mmm-hmm and at first people were like us

  for years okay and then I think within

  the course of a day or two people just

  started saying hang on a second for

  years and then the politicians have

  chimed and even the Prime Minister I

  think has said this seems excessive like

  does it does it really have to be four

  years and I agree I think it is

  absolutely outrageous that you won't be

  able to hear big ben ring for four years

  and there's gonna be scaffolding on that

  tower for ages as well I think this is

  such an important thing in London you

  know for tourism and just for the look

  of London

  I cannot believe anything can take that

  long to fix you look at your pair and

  they get those sink holes in the road

  and I fixed within twenty minutes and

  they're gonna take four years to fix a

  clock like I know it's a difficult job

  it's an important

  it's pressures and clocks are hard to

  fix and this requires expertise but just

  throw more people at it

  nothing should take four years nothing

  should take four years that's a bold

  statement there we go up the Manhattan

  Project took four years

  I checked it actually took four years so

  they're saying they can go from not

  having a nuclear bomb to like the

  nuclear bomb in the same amount of time

  it takes to fix a clock mm-hmm what well

  it's a historical repair of the tower I

  thought was the primary thing this is

  one of these things where I don't read

  the mythical man-month right you put a

  thousand men on it it's going to take 40

  years to fix it to have the most this is

  the most famous monument in London if

  not the world maybe there's only

  probably two or three more famous

  monuments in the world do you think

  that's reasonable to have it so out of

  commission for four years I don't know I

  don't know I've been aware of the story

  because I think being in London somehow

  I was I've been aware for a really long

  time that the tower was going to be

  covered up in scaffolding for a long

  period of time I don't remember where it

  was but I feel like I've known this for

  months and months and months but it has

  suddenly become a story because it's

  like people can crystallize around the

  concept of the bell not ringing which

  has turned it into a thing and it's

  happening now it's yeah come the repair

  job of the century yes it becomes a

  repair shop of the century but when I

  when I came back to London from the

  summer the scaffolding was just going up

  and I took a picture of it at that time

  because I knew like oh yes it's going to

  be a while before the tower is fully

  uncovered again like this has been this

  is going to be some big huge job but the

  four years thing it's just like I don't

  know because it's hard to say with

  projects like this what are what are

  they doing if they are trying to restore

  the tower so that it can last another

  hundred years taking four percent of the

  time to restore the tower doesn't seem

  like a crazy number to me that would

  seem quite reasonable if this is a

  restoration job to last a hundred years

  now if it is a restoration

  to last six years then yes there is some

  horrible bureaucratic problem going on

  with how long the repairs taken what it

  is that they're actually doing here all

  right I don't know with construction

  projects in particular like I'm also

  just aware of this in London that I I

  like to take photographs of some places

  that I know that are under construction

  when they're foolish enough to put up a

  date and I have a few places where I

  have photographs of the exact same sign

  as they have changed the date over the

  years for like opening for the Olympics

  as opening for 2015 opening 2017 opening

  2080 right and they just keep bumping it

  back I wouldn't be surprised if once

  that scaffolding goes up it actually

  ends up taking them six years or eight

  years to really do the thing like four

  years is they're optimistic outcome

  right now but they're going to discover

  something in the process of doing the

  restoration that actually makes it take

  much longer can you imagine being an

  American tourist coming to London and

  Big Ben's covered in scaffolding it's

  amazing it's like such a problem or what

  I wonder is they're very good in London

  about putting up those drawings of the

  building on the outside of the building

  and if the thing is it's amazing

  actually how often you don't necessarily

  notice there is I think I have a

  photograph was it seen Paul's Cathedral

  there was some place where they they put

  up that kind of scaffolding and from the

  right view like down the street you'd

  never know like you wouldn't know yes if

  you didn't do you never know if it's

  just the background to you and you see

  st. Paul's Cathedral the time but if

  you've come just to take a photo of Big

  Ben which is what most people come to

  London to do you're gonna notice well

  people come to London to have fun in

  Trafalgar Square

  that's the primary reason that they they

  come here and I think we've discussed

  before there are the danger to London's

  tourism around that particular tourist

  attraction is is much much worse than

  this I only mentioned the construction

  around Big Bend because you know there

  is going to be some nonzero number of

  tourists who see the scaffolding around

  it with the drawing of the tower on it

  who think that is the thing like that

  someone is going to have that experience

  that's definitely going to put the

  drawing on it day oh oh they have to if

  they don't put the drawing on it I will

  be very surprised they're gonna put the

  drawing on there maybe if they're really

  clever they can do some rear projection

  of a clock on the actual drawing so they

  could get the time right that would be a

  good thing to do I

  think the scaffolding won't cover the

  clock itself until the very last minute

  but hmm what could be wrong about that -

  as possible that's possible here's the

  other thing though that I think is

  interesting around this this

  construction thing like it's going to

  take so long

  but what has happened like I kind of

  love when this happens and I also hate

  when it happens is that now what the

  bell will chime for is turning into like

  a fun political issue where everybody

  gets to argue about what events are they

  going to ring the bell for right so

  somebody somebody made a terrible

  mistake where they said oh the Bell

  isn't going to ring for four years right

  and then as you mentioned like

  politicians came in and they said well

  well what about for New Year's and I

  said okay well we can make the bell ring

  for New Year's so it's like no no if you

  say the Bell won't ring don't concede or

  I don't ever concede because then all

  you're going to deal with for forever is

  people asking you to make the bell ring

  for their idea of what a special

  occasion is and so already there's a

  little storm about is the bell going to

  ring for the moment of the glorious

  Independence of the UK when it leaves

  the EU like surely Big Ben should ring

  for that as like oh no you've opened

  yourself up to this problem of everybody

  asking now that you have declared this

  period of silence of everybody asking

  for the bell to ring on a special

  occasion like you know in the next four

  years there's going to be some dramatic

  news event right some tragedy of some

  kind and people will be calling for the

  bell to ring as respect for this moment

  right like it's inevitable that this is

  going to happen at the moment they're

  saying anything New Year's Eve and

  remembrance Sunday it'd be interesting

  it's a really really important member of

  the royal family does for example in the

  next four years which is not an

  inconceivable thought it's not

  inconceivable that the queen is going to

  die in the next four years right I said

  it not me

  we're not jinxing the Queen here Big Ben

  was ringing everyone would be saying it

  should be silenced so I don't know what

  they're gonna do when that happens yeah

  you can't say hey the Queen's dead let's

  so bring a bow don't um yeah I've put my

  money right now but if the Queen dies

  they will ring the bell

  right I bet that will happen that's

  that's what I put my money on but when

  someone dies isn't it all you know stop

  the bills that's like birth that's even

  the poem isn't it it's when someone

  it's an inversion you're totally right

  because the Bell is silent we had now we

  must ring the bell to not ring the bell

  incredibly disrespectful do you know

  what's gonna happen what every bad thing

  that happens in the next four years is

  gonna be put down to the curse of Big

  Ben it's gonna be like you know when

  local celebrities start dying and think

  bad things happen it's gonna be all this

  just started happening when Big Ben's

  stopped ringing you know I think you're

  right I think you're right Brady Big Ben

  it's it's the beating heart of the

  United Kingdom it's terrible terrible

  luck to still the beating heart of this

  kingdom and is it a coincidence they

  stopped the Bell the same day as the

  eclipse of the century I don't think it

  is yeah no I don't think it is mm-hmm

  it's concerning it's really really

  concerning point that you brought up

  their curse the big ten I hope we make

  it through it

  do I sound Pasha yes you sound Pasha

  without a doubt I think we could do with

  double-blind posh tests on this and if

  people would definitely say this is the

  Pasha one although because it's like

  that old-fashioned type of microphone I

  was hoping would maybe make me sound

  like those people who did like

  voiceovers for nineteen fifties

  newsrooms like now having set the new

  land speed record out on the lakes of

  North America it's pretty good