Top Four

Top Four 2: TV Shows


  I made notes about 15 minutes ago all

  right well that's good that's your usual

  prep time so uh I'm happy that you've

  prepared for our this so this is Episode

  two of top four top four

  we're spelling out the four right it

  makes it easier fo you are that is how

  it's spelled yeah however you want to

  add an e because a lot of people used to

  take out vowels now we could just like

  add a whole bunch is that the French

  spelling yeah with web 4.0 is adding

  bowels exactly more vowels

  yeah well the French are taking over you

  know we that's yes in French oh so this

  is the show where we BS for like an hour

  and what are our top four picks for

  something and this week I picked the

  topic the topic is favorite TV series so

  are you ready for this

  mmm so I'm curious I think we're gonna

  have a lot of overlap here but I think

  our our ordering might be different yeah

  I think that's why we're gonna have

  actually something to talk about because

  we have been together for 12 almost 13

  years now so we have had 13 years of TV

  series watching together which is what

  we normally watch we don't watch movies

  we watch TV series we always have brand

  new state TV TV yep you emphasize the T

  yep I watched the TV mm-hmm so yeah

  we're gonna have a lot of overlap but I

  think it's gonna be interesting because

  I think I have some surprises for you


  so we'll see I have I made a big short

  list it's not it's not so sure what does

  that mean

  all right well okay so on my short list

  which I believe might be a Mike Hurley

  term I'm not sure I think the word

  shortlist has been around for longer

  than my curly has been around well I'm

  gonna give it to Mike early because he's

  awesome that's fair short list is yours

  now Mike

  and so do you want me to just read off

  the series that I have listed on my

  short list here before we get into what

  our actual top floors are yeah sure all

  right let's see I got the wire six feet

  under the office American the office UK

  Breaking Bad Freaks and Geeks Arrested

  Development coupling Parks and

  Recreation orange is the new black

  Walking Dead house of cards Ally McBeal

  down now be the prayer the the Paradise

  Dexter the tutors and Mad Men Wow

  yeah so that was my short list of what I

  was picking from that's on the long list

  everything else so a lot of them I

  eliminated first off because they aren't

  finished yet or I haven't seen the final

  season yet like Parks and Rec so I

  haven't seen the final season of Parks

  and Rec so I don't think I can put it on

  my list yet even though I might end up

  seeing that next week and have it on my

  list so we'll see but do you have a

  short list

  I have like five things on here because

  I couldn't think of many in the last 15

  minutes you old you want to look at my

  list and we could pause and then take a

  minute and you can sip some tea you

  decide you keep going that's the spirit

  of the show is this is a natural you

  know show so I think one thing that you

  had in your list that I didn't have my

  list now I'm reconsidering is the office

  and you had both the UK and the u.s.

  right I have it on my short list but if

  you want to know my way which direction

  do we go with our top four well number

  one should be the best so should we talk

  about that first or last let's go first

  first yeah and then we're just like

  going down to like the crap down these

  are all good shows I mean are you well

  it is for the for the purpose of right

  now I mean are you I don't think either

  if the office is gonna be your number

  one is it actually it is American office

  is my number one favorite TV series Wow

  are you shocked and awed I yeah actually

  I I would say it would be in my top five

  but I'm not sure I would put it that

  high up in fact I definitely put it

  number one

  I'm gonna tell you why it's my number

  one over everything else because first

  of all I have rewatched it many times

  and every time i rewatch it i enjoy it

  it makes me happy and another thing they

  have i love the characters on it and

  throughout the whole series even when I

  was watching it more on time I guess

  when I wasn't just re watching it and I

  didn't really like certain seasons

  altogether as a whole it works really

  well and the each character even though

  they're super silly sometimes they

  really develop into real characters with

  depth and and lives and person you care

  about them very much and they're dynamic

  even though it's a comedy and it's it

  started off as a kind of shallow comedy

  but it just it just grew into this

  wonderful thing that felt like a little

  family and I cry like crazy whenever

  Michael leaves I cry like crazy when he

  proposes to Holly I cry at the end when

  Dwight and Angela get married I cry

  every time Jim and Pam have like their

  things together like during their

  wedding the proposed everything like so

  many spoiler alerts by the way yeah

  spoiler Bell dong whatever spoiler dawg


  so I just a for a comedy to make me feel

  that much is great and to make me laugh

  as much as it does and every time i

  rewatch it I find something new that's

  funny or I forgot one of like the little

  jokes here and there which I love that

  that it still stays rich for me and

  interesting and it's just kind of like a

  it's kind of like a what's that called

  when someone has like um a security

  blanket I feel like the office is kind

  of like my my cozy security blanket of

  comedy and fun and so that's why it's my

  number one that's interesting see

  because as soon as you mentioned it on

  your on your short long list your long

  short list as soon as you mention it

  I've got to put that in my top 5 for

  sure maybe I might talk for we'll see

  but it's gotta be my top 5 because

  I love a lot of that with you of like

  you know looking back on it went as it

  was running I never thought this is the

  best show ever I thought this is a good

  show yeah yeah and as I as I with you

  have rewatched it over the years and and

  as the show went through and eventually

  after probably a little bit too long

  ended you know and there were definitely

  like some some low points seasons that

  there were a lot of a lot of like dud

  episodes that were just kind of dumb or

  dud segments within episodes and but

  they were dud episodes I feel like a lot

  of the other series that I have on here

  some of them I just wish certain seasons

  wouldn't even exist like let me give you

  an example for something that actually

  didn't make my list which is Arrested

  Development which I loved Arrested

  Development when it was new

  I find it ivory watched it a whole bunch

  of times and the more i rewatch it the

  less funny I find it to be which is

  makes me sad so I've almost kind of

  stopped tree watching it so it remains

  funny in my mind yeah and then rewatch

  seeing that final season on Netflix or

  whatever that was trying to be yeah

  ruins it for me like that seeing even

  like the first like five episodes of

  that that we tried to watch kind of

  wrecked stuff for me and I feel like

  that that I wish that never was there

  and so that got that's why it got booted

  out of my top four completely see I I

  have it as somewhere around number two

  and I and and I that's soft that's not

  like a firm commitment there but Wow you

  have that up in your top four I do but

  to me Arrested Development I haven't had

  the same problem as you of like thinking

  it's less funny over time but I haven't

  leary watched it so maybe as much every

  watcher if I'm like rewatching the

  office Marco will come in and he'll sit

  down and watch an episode and I'll be

  like all right let's watch one more oh

  okay let's watch one more he totally

  ends up being a rewatch sure with me

  so even though he's not really a I'm

  gonna put this on her and watch it to

  veg out he's not that type of person no

  but but I think you're right though that

  you know obviously I think anybody

  considering Arrested Development needs

  to totally pretend like season four

  here's the net

  like season just didn't exist just that

  that was never there that was that was a

  fluke it was you know that did that

  doesn't exist like even even worse so

  than the people who pretend the Star

  Wars prequels didn't exist like

  definitely like the Star Wars prequels

  you believe well they kind of he's ever

  so development no season before there

  was no season for period

  I think Arrested Development started

  getting bad during season 3 and that

  that is somewhat that was somewhat

  controversial but I am very sensitive to

  when the writing of a show starts to get

  a little bit flatter where like the

  character start to become kind of like

  more like exaggerations or caricatures

  of themselves rather than like doing

  things that are more true to them and it

  gets a little bit stupid yeah it's when

  they stop acting like themselves yeah

  when they when they do things that are

  blatantly out of the character that they

  spent so much time building is when it's

  jarring and it makes me angry right and

  usually it takes the form of people

  becoming more extreme in some way

  usually like you know in comedies is

  everyone kind of just gets like stupider

  and and and like I think what what made

  the office so good is that the

  characters went in the opposite

  direction that you know with the office

  over it started out as this kind of

  stupid show that where the characters

  were kind of flat and then over time

  they developed them into very

  well-rounded characters because that's

  more like people in real life people in

  real life are not usually these extreme

  characters but with with Arrested

  Development I thought seasons 1 & 2 were

  pretty solid and then season 3 of the

  original series you know before Netflix

  season 3 I thought was getting stupid

  and so I I'm one of the very few people

  who thinks that it was cancelled at the

  right time because I imagine if if it

  hadn't been cancelled and if Arrested

  Development had kept going on its

  original path you know not the stupid

  Netflix 1 but can't go on its original

  path and made like two or three or four

  more seasons like that I think it would

  have gotten really dumb and the writers

  would have gotten really worn out and we

  would have we would have seen the result

  of that I'm totally on that yacht with

  you I mean I agree that it was canceled

  at the right time I do yeah and I would

  say the same thing about the wire and I

  will I let sever the wire

  right into that where's the wire for you

  mr. Armand number one I thought so it's

  my number two that's yeah well because

  you know the office I mean no no part of

  the office to me ever gets as good as

  the wire to the in the way that I say

  like damn that's so good like like after

  like a particularly good episode of the

  wire like oh man that's so good you like

  the office the office never got there

  from where the office is more like it's

  more like the everyday lunch deli it's

  like you it's you can count on it being

  good never like totally stunning amazing

  but it's consistently good and it makes

  you feel good whereas the wire you know

  and and you know all like the more

  serious dramas are more like this like

  Breaking Bad is like this to where like

  you know it's just because of the nature

  of the kind of show it is it's going to

  be emotionally kind of more severe the

  highs are gonna be higher the lows are

  gonna be lower it's gonna just be like a

  bigger roller coaster ride than

  something like the office but I think

  that gives it the potential to really to

  really like be amazing during the good

  parts and the wire I think overall is so

  good and I will say though you know

  similar to Arrested Development season 3

  I think the wire season 5 was

  dramatically less good than the previous

  four seasons but was still really good

  it was I I'm not sure it was really good

  it rounded it out though I loved having

  all the different aspects of it okay I

  know what you're talking about ok

  spoiler dong happening whatever but what

  does that set what would that sound like

  I'd already showed you the sound which

  yeah okay I'm not doing it again so if I

  know the whole crazy thing with McNulty

  again what we said getting at a

  character going to the extreme that's

  what ruins things but if I kind of kind

  of forget about the McNulty storyline

  going out even though that was like the

  main part of see it's season five in the

  wire if you just focus on the spinning

  in the newspaper and how the journalists

  are affected in the whole ecosystem of

  the wire I guess like a you're going

  through each part of it and showing it's

  just kind of putting a microscope to it

  I think that that

  needed to happen but it was the McNulty

  crazy bum killing storyline that really

  ruined it for the wire yeah like that

  that to me I mean that that is mostly my

  problem with tease and five is that

  storyline McNulty in Leicester like that

  that that was really like grossly out of

  character for them and I don't think and

  they tried to write it in you know the

  in in ways that would that would

  allegedly make sense but I don't think

  they succeeded and I think you know I

  think maybe what happened

  you know David Simon the the creator of

  the wire he he had his background in

  newspaper reporting in Baltimore and it

  almost like when somebody has like a

  personal ax to grind

  in in this kind of medium you that the

  quality or the result usually suffers

  and I think maybe this was David Simon

  like finally getting his time to tell it

  to like grind some axes about his new

  Sabre background even though and I think

  that might have clouded his judgment a

  little bit in like what makes for a good

  story for the wire and what these

  characters really would and should be

  doing you know maybe maybe he so badly

  wanted to grind those axes that they

  clouded his judgment is what I'm saying

  that make sense yeah but I mean the wire

  can't be my number one because it is

  such a downer like I can't just pop on

  an episode of the wire and be like oh

  let me just cuddle up to this it's not

  boogie I I like it a lot I mean I agree

  I love it I love it too when we're

  looking forward to rewatching the

  remaster right yeah yeah so we're gonna

  how many times have we seen the wire

  together uh it's something like two and

  a half all the way through yeah I'm like

  that three yeah we everyone so we just

  get that bug to watch the wire and it is

  it is just so it's wonderful it's I just

  can't even put words to why it's so good

  it's just one of those things that you

  have to tell everybody if you haven't

  seen the wire please watch the wire but

  please watch the first episode like six

  times because you're gonna fall asleep

  every time you're doing the fall asleep

  through the first episode because it's

  so dense and there's so much happening

  and then

  when Yuri watch it you'll understand why

  the first episode of so dense but if

  you're watching him for the first time

  just plow on through just get there and

  you will be hooked yep same deal in

  season 2 starts the inter season 2

  you're like I don't know these people

  why are they on a docks I don't care

  about this who yeah they do everything

  everything's ruined

  yeah nobody now yeah it all ties

  together eventually it's worth it stick

  through it you'll see the first time

  watching it I didn't even get hooked

  until the dead girls in the container

  because it was kind of like a it made me

  think of like a crazy Law & Order

  episode I mean I was I was one season

  one and you were kind of nearby living

  with me at the time but you weren't

  paying attention you like you know you'd

  walk through the room and and see five

  minutes in one room we had like one room

  yeah well we had two rooms you'd walk

  through the other one yeah so and and

  then what hooked you was Omar in the

  courtroom in season 2 yeah that was that

  was amazing that was so funny we went

  back and started over again for you I

  had already seen I think all of it at

  that point I know you that was your

  first first watch yeah then we went back

  yeah but you went back for me to watch

  the first season and then we both caught

  up together and we both finish it

  together yeah that's right cuz you're

  your gentleman naturally yeah every

  start of the wire for you that's our

  romance right there he's starting TV

  shows together when one person says I

  don't want to watch that and then they

  get hooked and then they're like okay

  I'll watch that that's how you watch the

  tutors - that's true you're really gonna

  want to watch it but really okay I won't

  watch it yeah yep yeah and and so with

  the wire I think one of the downsides of

  it is that I used to love cop shows

  before the wire

  I love cop shows now the wire has

  totally ruined all the cop shows hey we

  watch white-collar but that's that's

  true yeah chips and candy like it's like

  it's your trash it's so great white

  collar is like it's ice cream in TV form

  like it is ice cream on TV and it's

  indulgent and it's stupid and it's not

  very healthy but it we enjoy it it makes

  you smile

  exactly and I'd like you know before the

  wire I was really into like law and

  order and like live

  like the more serious cop shows but the


  yeah but but like the wire is so much

  better than any other serious cop show

  I've ever seen and it makes the other

  ones just seem so stupid

  by comparison like not even they don't

  just seem bad they actually seem stupid

  by comparison

  yeah I agree and so now I think I can

  only watch shows like white collar which

  are intended to be stupid presented as

  stupid and kind of tongue-in-cheek about

  how stupid they are yeah yeah like I

  think I think white collar knows how

  stupid it is oh it totally doesn't try

  to hide it and I appreciate that white

  collar yeah

  all right so let's take our first

  sponsor break our first sponsor this

  week is white collar this first sponsor

  is Law & Order SVU dude horrible please

  never watch it no I watched so many

  episode I watched so much of that but

  the wire ruined it and I'll tell you

  what I was like have you seen one

  recently um I try to but it's just

  they're so quick to like solve a case

  and everything yeah it's it's the same

  formula every episode oh yeah especially

  SVU it's like it's it's very formulaic

  it's yeah that show if you see one

  recently it does not hold up anyway

  let's move on because I want to talk

  about another another series that has

  the heavy part of it that makes it that

  keeps it from my number one which I

  believe you would think it would have

  been my number one does it underground

  it is six feet underground

  actually to be precise but yeah six feet

  under was previously my number one

  favorite TV series ever but in recent

  years I haven't I used to rewatch it at

  least once a year since the first time I

  saw which was like right after college

  and Marcos Pittsburgh apartment we were

  it's like what 2,000 who knows four or

  five I graduated 2005 so yeah 2005 and

  so it used to be my favorite I loved it

  I loved all the characters I loved the

  structure of it I thought it was so

  original I really loved the kind of

  absurdist like taking you out of the act

  to these quirky little not dream

  sequences but yeah I guess they kind of

  were like hallucinations

  yeah hallucinations of the characters

  that kind of added depth to who they

  were but I just everything about that

  show just spoke to my I don't know inner

  theater nerd maybe that's what it was

  but it was it was fantastic and I loved

  watching it and now I think in our life

  as we've gotten older a lot of the

  themes are way too heavy for me like I

  feel like some of them are a little bit

  too personal like and I just I can't

  watch them anymore in the same

  light-hearted carefreeness that I used

  to watch them and yeah it just it's too

  much for me I think about wanting to put

  on again and watch it but I'm just never

  in that mindset that I want to feel that


  so I guess I like the wire because thank

  God like we are we're pretty removed

  from the reality of the wire even though

  it is very much reality for many many

  people but I think six feet under is a

  reality also for a lot of people and

  yeah I still have it on my list is

  number three because it's so fantastic

  and I did love it for such a long time

  but it is down it is down two slots yeah

  that I I think that you know there's a

  number of factors going into that I

  first of all I agree it's a fantastic

  show and it was it was in my list of

  like top five that I should that I'm

  considering but you know you have to

  think about at the time it came out like

  when it came out in the early 2000s

  there there were no dramas like that

  really like no there was nothing like


  like now we have so many of these like

  HBO / Showtime premium dramas with like

  a lot of heavy themes and death and

  maturity and everything like now those

  dramas have become dime-a-dozen

  and so it back then it was it was such a

  like shocker like whoa this is so deep

  this is so heavy it's so real

  yeah it felt really real and it was

  really it was very original for for its

  time and now you know it's it's so easy

  to to minimize that now or or it's less

  significant now because we have so many

  other shows like that and you know and

  and the heavy stuff you're right like I

  think as you get older as you go through

  like you know growing up getting a job

  having kids having like you know getting

  having parents that are getting older

  and all sorts of like crazy stuff like

  if you're watching a lot of life stuff

  yeah all sorts of life stuff having

  relationships especially people who have

  relationships that that don't go well or

  have problems in the same way that these

  characters are having problems like I

  think that can very quickly become as

  you said like something that you'd like

  you're just never up for experiencing

  that again like if given the choice

  between burdening yourself with that

  emotionally for an evening or watching

  white collar and eating ice cream I

  think or watching the office again right

  I I think watching white collar and

  eating ice cream is gonna win every time

  every time you know it's it's like like

  aspirationally it's like how like

  Netflix put up this thing forever ago I

  don't know but it's like you know the

  people always like add these heavy Oscar

  movies to their - they're cute - why'd

  you never watch those Oscar movies I

  can't and it was just like I can't

  listen to like depressing grunge albums


  because I I can't listen I can't do it

  I'm sorry you know live you're over for

  me does anybody listen alive lightning

  crashes Marco oh my god like I think I

  think that maybe that's just like an old

  person thing you know like like as we

  old people now really in 30 where I'm 33

  right or am i 34 here 33 I'm 33 right

  and and so I you know we we have a house

  we have a kid we have a dog you know

  like we spent today at a party at our

  child's preschool so I think that makes

  us old people and you know what like it

  gets to a point I think where you're

  just not in the mood for that drama like

  even when Breaking Bad was happening we

  watched that basically one season two

  legs we're watching at all

  Netflix and stuff and and we would watch

  it and like we watch like one episode

  and that show is so heavy that even like

  after one episode every like I don't

  want to watch another one tonight yeah

  you couldn't watch I wanted to watch him

  another one but yeah but no but I was

  like I'm like it's so heavy I'm so down

  and stressed out right now can we just

  like watch white-collar now and go to

  bed like like it was so I just couldn't

  take it and and Breaking Bad I think as

  an excellent show that I have I have

  that as my you know in my top five to

  consider as well but I haven't rewatched

  it yet so it's a little early to say

  yeah ivory watched it and it didn't make

  my top 5 it didn't even make my

  three-way tie for fifth yeah but I still

  really really like it and I think it's a

  fantastic series and I wish I kind of

  had room for it in my top 5 it might it

  might be maybe it's next to 6 feet under

  because you know they're kind of in the

  same boat where I can't really rewatch

  them more than I already have now kind

  of kind of burnt out that's fair

  so what other ones do you have have we

  have all of your top 4 now no that was

  just number 3 was talking about Six Feet

  Under and I'm gonna final one yeah are

  you ready for this I am

  it is Mad Men did you forget Mad Men

  existed yeah you did yeah yeah you know

  it just finished like we just saw it

  really no actually it's on the very

  bottom of my short list in like fading

  pen that I grabbed like at the very and

  I'm like oh my god I forgot about Mad

  Men and then I quickly popped it into

  the number four slot because it is so

  good it we just finished watching it so

  it's pretty fresh in my mind

  we after we finished watching it we went

  back and watched the first episode and

  it was even better like it was but we

  haven't gone through a full rewatch I've

  every watched it the whole thing not

  what the last season but oh I don't know

  I don't know you've gone through yeah

  I've gone through it because I usually

  have TV shows on while I'm editing

  photos so you have a lot of stuff but I

  just again it's it's great depth it's

  great human stories but yeah it's

  because it's like period if

  very removed from my life so I don't I

  don't feel like it's as heavy as

  something like a Six Feet Under

  right I think you can't like the issues

  these people are facing are not usually

  issues that we face it's more of like a

  lens into history and you're you're

  watching these people and there are

  extremely painful moments and there's

  very frustrating moments and there are

  very down moments but overall I I found

  the phenomenon I guess of Mad Men to be

  worthy enough of a spot in the top four

  yeah I I might be with you in that I

  have to rewatch it first up before I can

  say for sure but it was very good but

  again like I've only seen it once

  through really and it has spanned the

  last what like six years it's been on

  for a long time but I mean like the

  whole all the themes of women's rights

  and how that evolved and that just

  powers me up man I just want yeah you

  know punch my fist in the air and just

  be like yeah so it enrages me you know

  what I mean it's just it's insane how

  poorly treated women were and people

  were like and how how different

  everything was it really does put quite

  and was a anthropological lens

  I guess into into the history there of

  that part of history and especially you

  know being from New York living in New

  York we worked in the city like we have

  a little bit of a taste of that culture

  that they are looking back into at a

  time that we weren't there and our pant

  you know our parents were children at

  that time and that's also cool to think

  about because I don't know about you but

  I had my oh yeah no I do know about you

  because you're my husband like our

  relatives were the ones that were

  working in the city yeah and and doing

  similar jobs I mean not in advertising

  but I mean my my grandma would go into

  the city as a working woman and work for

  a patterning company I think

  McCall's I can't think of any way stat I

  mean she would go into the city and she

  had a job in Manhattan during that time

  so it was it's kind of it's kind of neat

  to think about it historically in a

  personal way as well

  as a universal people way yeah so that's

  why it's in my top 4 yeah that makes a

  lot of sense and now I want to rewatch

  it the first first we gotta watch the

  widescreen wire that was that first

  before I think so okay well we already

  been long we already started watching

  the first episode so I love madmen


  we went back right after the final

  episode again spoiler dong but you know

  it's I'm not gonna talk about it so I

  guess it was great unspoiled Ong but if

  you do watch it stop thinking about

  spoilers all right yeah so what's so now

  that we've heard about my list and you

  are kind of envious of my picks a little

  bit yeah I know because you forgot about

  like half the things we've watched yep

  what's on your list and I think we

  should talk about runner-ups at the very

  end yeah so number one was wire no

  question the wire number one although I

  do have note of you know season 1

  through 4 is really the star of the show

  season 5 is week season 5 is in your

  number 5 slot yeah somewhere in the top

  few I want Arrested Development but

  again seasons 1 & 2 Rockstar season 3


  season 4 did not exist if this is gonna

  be like your video games where you're

  like I have a number 7 yeah yeah it's

  basically was that and then and six feet

  under I think should be somewhere around

  here - probably probably around the same

  level as Arrested Development Wow see

  I'm surprised at 6 feet under is on

  there for you it was a very good show I

  know and we have a lot of his we have I

  also have like the memory of us watching

  it together for the first time which you

  know changes things - absolutely yeah

  like I remember sitting there in

  Pittsburgh on the cold fall evenings the

  windows open yep

  yeah it's great on your hand me down

  couch from your brother-in-law uh-huh

  yeah that was arranged badly until you

  came over amazing because I apparently

  can't arrange furniture in a room okay

  focus list so then and Breaking Bad I

  think I had down here as well that

  should be somewhere in probably didn't

  top ten at least okay so why Breaking

  Bad make the list for you well again I

  think it's a little early to say but I


  I do want to really consider it for this

  presence because I do think it was well

  it had a good

  it was very encompassing like the whole

  series it felt closure i I couldn't I

  I'm sorry to interrupt you but real

  quick I couldn't put on something like

  um like The Sopranos because I didn't

  like one of the seasons and then I also

  didn't like how it ended like it didn't

  feel close to me so like I couldn't

  really put it on but see The Sopranos

  I think the Sopranos also benefits from

  what I described what I just described a

  six feet under which is like at the time

  it was out there were no other shows

  that really like that surprises even its

  that's that to me when there like some

  of the scenes I can't even watch yeah

  it's crazy like there are certain things

  I can watch and certain thing I don't

  know why but certain Sopranos scenes

  just rub they were so angry and violent

  yeah like it was so so much anger in the

  violence that I couldn't watch it or I

  feel like a lot of the times violence in

  the wire a lot of it is kind of

  circumstantial and it's business it's

  business or it's like the it's kind of

  like the the situation that a lot of

  these people are in in the wire and it's

  almost like they have no choice I mean

  they definitely have a choice but it's

  so ingrained in their culture and the

  wire that this is how life works that it

  feels different and then the violence in

  I guess not really violence but strange

  deaths and six feet under that's just

  some of its that's just a random random

  yeah bizarre death it's not really

  particularly violent so yeah I had the

  mm-hmm I can't do Sopranos Sopranos well

  surprise I think also like so I do think

  a lot of people say best show ever and I

  think it really was it benefited from

  its newness at the time and also I think

  it had really spotty writing like like

  some of the seasons and episodes were

  way way better than others some of them

  I thought were downright stupid

  I think spoiler dong or whatever after

  after Tony got shot I think there was a

  long span of really terrible episodes in

  season there's like two seasons that

  were just awful like almost unwatchable

  bad characters doing things that were

  way out of character things like that

  like it was just like I being so

  sensitive to what I perceive as poor

  writing I I had a hard time with The

  Sopranos and I don't think I would

  rewatch it just because I I don't think

  I would get past those points very well

  we'll see Breaking Bad now let's get

  back to your right so I'm in Breaking

  Bad has a lot of that angry violence in

  it too it does and I have a very hard

  time watching especially like a lot of

  the scenes with Tuco you know like I I


  it's very hard for me to watch that and

  well Breaking Bad so much because like

  it's such a strange mix of yeah well

  what it is also like it's it's kind of

  it has a similar problem that weeds has

  which is like breaking bad is really

  didn't even make my short list it's not

  good but we watch out anyway but it's

  not good I would also say Dexter has a

  similar issue

  Dexter's better than weeds but I like

  Michael something Hall what I see

  Michael see home sure I think I don't

  know yeah he's a great actor but you

  know III think Dexter had has a really

  big problem with consistency and also it

  just gets so repetitive at the end was

  so bad oh yeah the last season because

  the end was so bad yeah and it had a

  couple of seasons in the middle that

  were like the whole season was stupid -

  yeah yeah but so it's really how many

  serial killers are there in Miami like

  why are there so many serial killers in

  one small area of the United States the

  moral of the story is don't go to

  Florida oh my god there's so many people

  killing people down there they're just

  oh no just don't even cross the border

  like it yeah crazy town just stay away

  from Florida that's what I couldn't buy

  about Dexter like yeah every it was like

  a bad cop show that every episode they

  kept the bat they like someone caught

  the bad guy and it's fine when the

  crimes vary but when it's all serial

  killers like that just boggles my mind

  yeah anyway so going back for you going

  back inside we got

  here so I think weeds and Breaking Bad

  both had a similar issue of the main

  plot point was everything just keeps

  going wrong and getting worse like

  that's like that's the only thing that

  just keeps happening is everything just

  keeps getting worse the characters try

  something and they get themselves into

  some horrible situation and everything

  just gets worse because they're horrible

  I can't stand when the failure in a TV

  show like the the big crisis moment is

  due to miscommunication that makes me

  insane like like or a lack of people I

  can lost like a lack of communication

  like don't even talk about loss is three

  just tell people look we're from this

  side of the island oh so are we oh these

  open your mouths and talk to each other

  like the whole like just like the big

  thing in Breaking Bad when he lost his

  money to those crazy people because he

  thought someone was gonna spoiler dong

  because you know he thought someone was

  coming for them and then he gave someone

  the coordinates and then they showed up

  but the wrong person showed up and then

  they start you oh my god just talk to

  each other and say what you're doing

  like that would have solved every I hate

  when I can figure out the one line that

  they needed to say to solve everything

  that ruins a show for me right and also

  that like a normal person in its in the

  situation would have just said that one

  line yeah exactly like it's it's not

  like it's not like there was this some

  unfortunate tragedy where this doesn't

  this you know would never have happened

  you know if you put regular people in

  the situation they would have you

  communicated something more and this

  wouldn't have been a problem yeah the

  show kind of would have been over if

  Walter was like hey Skyler I might be

  able to sell some drugs what do you

  think about this exactly anyway so yeah

  so the whole like the type of show where

  everyone just keeps messing themselves

  up and getting themselves into

  increasingly horrible situations I think

  is kind of like a cheap shot and and I

  get tired of it easily and so that's why

  I could watch weeds Breaking Bad's on

  your list now it yeah because you

  couldn't think of anything else to put

  on your list yeah pretty much I ended it

  last minute you want to see you remember

  coupling yes I have I have one more on

  my list that we haven't talked about yet

  okay and that's what I've been saving as

  my finale even though it's not my number

  one is it a surprise special guest

  it is freaks and geeks

  nice Freaks and Geeks I would put

  somewhere in the top three probably my

  number three I it is such a good show

  and and I darted that are very painful

  for you you vote yet whenever we watch

  they are yeah because you know I've

  always been a geek and and I had you

  know a similarly hard time in school as

  a lot of those a lot of those geek kids

  and that in that in that show and I had

  a really hard time with with a lot of

  that stuff and so it is very painful to

  watch at times but they manage like the

  show they I've heard I've read

  interviews here and there and you know

  from some of the writers and cast and

  everything and like the show was written

  mostly from real stories that actually

  happened to the writers and cast members

  as you're growing up and the show was

  made by geeks for geeks

  it wasn't it like you know now that now

  that there's money to be made in the

  geek label because now he could

  compasses lots of very lucrative things

  now it's like geek has been invaded by

  like people who just want to capitalize

  on it who don't really understand it and

  who kind of like portray it almost like

  a parody like kind of Steve Urkel style

  geeky but freaks and geeks was made by

  people who you could tell they were

  genuine you could tell they actually it

  you could tell it was painful for them

  too because they went through challenges

  like this when they were in school when

  they were young and and so and that

  comes through you can really feel it as

  as a geek like it comes through as

  genuine I also like how a lot of the the

  people who the people who play the geeks

  in this in the series they are the right

  age yeah for who they're playing yeah

  they're all like you know sixteen and

  they well they're you know I think James

  Franco and a couple of the other people

  who were playing the freaks were a

  little bit older yeah I think they wrote

  like like this like Sam Weir and his

  friends like I think they were all

  pretty they were they were all very

  young and they looked like high school

  students were supposed to look they

  don't look like the Freak mutated high

  school students they were all 35 or

  series yeah we're like it's more of the

  high school of the cool kids that you're

  following the way this was totally


  I love freaks and geeks I thought it was

  fantastic - yeah and and it was all you

  know it was only on for what

  two seasons it was really short it was

  canceled was it two or three have it in

  the closet anyway there aren't that many

  episodes of it I think there's only 20

  episodes it's a very short show and they

  were short episodes there was even some

  mixup on some of the episodes right it

  wasn't like one minute I think they

  aired them out of order like after after

  it had been decided that it's gonna be

  canceled they like aired them in a weird

  order but you know with now at the

  Internet with you can get him in the

  right order but anyway it never had a

  chance to get bad because there weren't

  that many episodes and and so I I really

  hold that very highly that even though

  like if you if you would like if there

  was some article on BuzzFeed or

  something that was like top you know top

  five shows ever made like I don't think

  it would ever get that kind of

  recognition but it does for me because

  similar to like what your feelings about

  the office of it being and I think and I

  will put the office in this list too I

  think I put it above Breaking Bad but

  it's similar to your feeling but the

  office like I just feel good watching

  freaking geeks and it there was never a

  point in it where I was like oh this is

  so dumb or the characters would never

  have done this like there was never one

  of those big writing flaws it never felt

  like too like too much or too outrageous

  or too patronizing or anything like that

  it just is a very good show

  and I think it portrays you know growing

  up a portrays high school and and and

  that awkward stage and and being a geek

  it portrays those things in a very fair

  way in a way that really feels true and

  I don't think I've ever seen another

  show that really nailed it the way they

  did in that way I agree with you I think

  it's a fantastic series but the reason

  it didn't make my list just you know it

  was because I didn't feel completely

  rounded out and finished as a series it

  left me wanting a little bit more but

  like you said it didn't have a chance to

  get bad which is a definite plus but at

  the same time the way the the end a

  couple of the episodes being a little

  strange and disjointed towards the end

  and not I just didn't feel like it was

  really finished like I needed to a

  little bit more about these people

  to round it out and make it be like I

  just watched a series like a lot for me

  a really good TV series feels like an

  extremely long movie yeah it needs the

  the ups and downs of each episode but

  each episode needs to connect to each

  other and then form this whole arced

  story that kind of gets tied up in a

  nice little bundle of of this is this is

  how it ends and series that didn't end

  well or were left open I couldn't put

  them on my list and in addition to

  series that I haven't seen the end of

  like something like house of cards which

  we love Brian I couldn't really put that

  on my list or The Walking Dead or which

  oh my god that gives me so much anxiety

  well I also have a problem orange is the

  new black like it's not done yet

  so I can't judge it but I love it I have

  a problem highly ranking shows where I

  end up hating everyone in them by the

  end and so I would definitely have

  Breaking Bad as as one as that's one of

  its downsides I would also put six feet

  under on that list where they're in your

  top you just said they're near the top

  are they getting knocked down now

  because you're thinking of some other

  things well no yeah they're near the top

  but but like like six feet under by the

  end you hate Nate you hate Brenda yeah I

  mean who else isn't it I mean you know

  like you just hate them you really care

  about like you know Clare and Clare

  pretty much the whole end is about

  Claire yeah the whole end is about her

  but no but yeah like you're gonna need

  to put a serious dog in the front of

  this show to say that we're gonna be

  talking about all these shows and then

  you're gonna be spoiled yeah well so you

  know six feet under it had that problem

  where at the end you just hate all the

  main characters Breaking Bad I think had

  the exact same problem where like you

  just you hate wall you hate Jessie like

  hates Kyla you hate Skye like you just

  hate all those people by the end and I

  don't but you love Saul that's true like

  I don't feel great about those shows as

  much as I do with the shows that kind of

  make you love everybody and like the

  wire I think is excellent this kind of

  balance because the wire you know it has

  like ostensibly good guy

  as you said earlier like with the

  violence the wire it writes things and

  depicts things such that it kind of

  shows everyone's basically doing what is

  plausibly sensible to them given the

  situation they're in yeah everyone feels

  justified in their actions so you do end

  up hating anybody and you feel horrible

  that they have to do the stuff that they

  have to do exactly like everything it's

  the it's the it's the drug dealers it's

  the people who are in the wake of the

  drug dealer like every everybody you

  they're victims of their circumstances

  and it's their very they're not tragic I

  mean they it is tragic but you want them

  to succeed and you want them to be

  better yeah and and that's and I feel

  like like you just said it some of the

  other shows you just don't feel like

  they have much hope of succeeding

  because they've proven over and over

  again that they are incapable of

  changing and being better right because

  the other shows all they can like all

  the riders can ever do is just make

  everything worse well it's because most

  of the people that they're writing are

  all like whiny people I also want to

  mention like on an upside Parks and Rec

  I love Parks and Rec but I didn't see

  the last season yet so can boy they're

  done I didn't see the last season no

  dong I'm saying it for everyone else so

  they don't dong and don't dog us yeah

  don't Don us if you have a podcast about

  TV shows we won't listen to it and

  totally watch it right I mean the funny

  thing is like what what the heck are

  they gonna do like what-what could

  really be spoiled in Parks and Rec that

  would really ruin like the last season

  for us it doesn't it's not the kind of

  show the problem is it already felt like

  it finished

  yeah it's recent one that we watched the

  one before the last season it felt like

  it was done because they went ahead in

  the future and they showed like Leslie

  doing her thing you know in the Central

  Park office or whatever like the

  statewide park yeah yeah that she made

  and like the upstairs but so that felt

  finished to me yeah and so I haven't

  been like akin to get my hands on the

  last season because I kind of felt like

  it ended yeah like seeing that if I

  didn't know there was a next season I

  would have assumed that was the end of

  the series yeah so I'm a little scared

  yeah me too okay could you guys give me

  some Ron Swanson well but again I think

  Ron Swanson has been a victim

  bad writing over time yeah he has some

  spots that are bad like he turned stupid

  like in the last couple seasons that we

  saw like he he actually like he just

  became kind of a clown and kind of an


  rather than like the like you know

  eccentric you know hard-ass that he was

  in the earlier ones like he just became

  an idiot well that's what makes the

  Michael Scott character so fantastic I

  think because in general he's written as

  an idiot but then you see him being

  really good at his job in certain

  episodes and you're like that makes

  sense why he has this job now yeah even

  though he acts like a fool in between he

  really can get his job done being that

  as a documentary about an office and

  working and and you see him being a

  competent person and it makes him just

  so much doubt I love it yeah well and I

  think that's one thing that the u.s.

  office did way better than the British

  office and granted the British office

  only had like he was season 12 episodes

  yeah it was barely yeah plus the

  Christmas special thing it was it had

  almost no time relative to like the

  amount of time that the US office had to

  devote to anything have you watched the

  UK office after watching the American

  office recently not recently

  I tried putting it on because it's on

  Netflix it is hard to watch yeah this is

  not it was amazing when we first saw it

  before the American office came out

  remember how bad we thought the American

  office was because it was trying to be

  the British office which we loved well

  the first few episodes the American

  office was bad because it was trying to

  pick the British one yeah but you know

  the British one never developed the

  David Burke character it never developed

  that the way the Michael Scott character

  did of like you just like at the end you

  just hated the boss you just hated David

  Brent you never liked it never developed

  him into it developed him into a jerk

  whereas the u.s. office developed

  Michael Scott into a lovable idiot

  which is and and naughty and not like an

  idiot in like a charming way like it in

  like a kind of like a cool he was he was

  a yeah court jester but at the same time

  but in the charming yes sir it can has

  to kind of be a little bit smart to

  yeah it was it was always like Michael

  Scott was was charming and and he was

  lovable and David noxious yeah David

  Brent was obnoxious but they didn't

  build any character depth into David

  Brent we knew a lot about Michael

  Scott's character in his history in his

  childhood and his relationships like we

  knew a lot about him throughout the

  series of the office that we never got

  from the British office yeah and and you

  know the British office yeah I mean yes

  it was very short but I think I think it

  had to be that short because they

  basically did what they could do like

  like they I think they had exhausted

  most of the value out of the relatively

  shallow characters that they that they

  had created

  all right Marco so what is your real

  list we are all very confused yeah so am

  I so I know number one the wire number

  two may be between between Arrested

  Development freaks and geeks and the

  office so that's my top four but I'm not

  entirely sure of the order all right and

  Six Feet Under

  is then Breaking Bad or kind of like

  down like in like the five through ten

  range I love it like ten minutes ago

  Breaking Bad was like your number two it

  was it knows my number five it's right

  here okay one day one of these one of

  these times we're gonna get you to have

  like a real list I will never have know

  that'll be like the thing with the shows

  I will never actually have a solid top

  four list prepared in advance we'll see

  you'll have to pick the topic next time

  I have a whole list of possible topics

  my idea is to spring them on you without

  any warning like we'll just do it one

  night all right now we're talking about

  you know hey I put it on the eighties

  cars what the hell I couldn't even name

  an 80s car besides being like yeah the

  Fords something from the 80s or the

  Mustang from the 80s or the Corvette

  from the 80s all right well thanks a lot

  to our sponsors this week

  Law & Order SVU and ice cream and we

  will see you next recording interval

  that was really lame wasn't it that was

  so lame I'm sorry

  do you want me to sing again

  do-do-do-do-do-do Dick Wolf