The Accidental Tech Podcast

232: You've Exceeded Some Limit


  I was going to buy a streaming box for [TS]

  fleeting moment when I thought uh when [TS]

  you were becoming a vlogger right well [TS]

  no I'm still I'm still becoming a [TS]

  vlogger just exceptionally slowly but I [TS]

  thought about buying a streaming box [TS]

  when I thought I was going to get into [TS]

  like switch streaming with with I mic [TS]

  and then never ended up doing stuff I [TS]

  wonder which happened which of us makes [TS]

  our second YouTube video first you or me [TS]

  it's a race to the bottom I see sure all [TS]

  right let's start with some follow up [TS]

  guess what we don't really have any oh I [TS]

  think that's because in part we just [TS]

  released or DeMarko just released last [TS]

  week's episode earlier today because we [TS]

  are recording the episode from the [TS]

  future in the past or something because [TS]

  it is currently the 20th of July we are [TS]

  recording the episode that will be [TS]

  released on or around the 26th of the [TS]

  Journal of July because our vacations [TS]

  are in serial and so we didn't really [TS]

  have time to amass follow up other than [TS]

  to say we are going to be doing a Q&A [TS]

  episode I believe what did you say Jon [TS]

  master of ceremonies siracusa you said [TS]

  the first recording on August 4th and [TS]

  we're doing a double recording with [TS]

  back-to-back episodes which is why we're [TS]

  doing the QA because we're just gonna [TS]

  answer questions until we all die and [TS]

  then sounds wonderful so anyway so yes [TS]

  please pile up questions at this time [TS]

  the only way to get a question put in it [TS]

  to be a contender for the show is to [TS]

  tweet with the hashtag ask a tipi please [TS]

  do not email us because it will get lost [TS]

  to the ether and if we were cooler like [TS]

  Hello Internet we would have asked for [TS]

  postcards but we are not that cool nor [TS]

  that organised so terrible mistake if we [TS]

  learned nothing post office or Pio box [TS]

  and bring it all the lunch pieces of [TS]

  paper and then transcribe the things on [TS]

  them terrible mistake yes so up to [TS]

  please tweet hashtag ask a teepee and [TS]

  and we will hopefully select your [TS]

  question anyway that's that's it for [TS]

  follow up write that that might be [TS]

  record time we should have a we should [TS]

  have somebody go through and Chronicle [TS]

  how long we spend on follow-up like what [TS]

  is the trend line look like I'm sure [TS]

  there's like [TS]

  angry fan who has already done that is [TS]

  that has that fan you know sometimes [TS]

  there's none at all sometimes there's [TS]

  just one thing sometimes there's a lot [TS]

  if we record two days before we do a [TS]

  second recording usually not that much [TS]

  [Laughter] [TS]

  [Music] [TS]

  right all right so let's start with the [TS]

  topics and first thing is the Apple a [TS]

  10x is ten nanometer that's cool [TS]

  so tell us about this John we're talking [TS]

  about Intel and their process advantage [TS]

  and how it's how on semiconductor was [TS]

  supposedly catching up but you know [TS]

  until still had a lead and also the [TS]

  stuff and we were seeing we're gonna say [TS]

  you know Intel it was gonna be first a [TS]

  10 nanometer with a significant you know [TS]

  type of chip not just memory or [TS]

  something like that but as people who [TS]

  took apart the new the new iPad with the [TS]

  apples a 10x and it discovered the the a [TS]

  10x system on a chip is using tile and [TS]

  semiconductors 10 nanometer process and [TS]

  a 10x is not a tiny chip I mean the [TS]

  grand scheme of things it's not as big [TS]

  as a Xeon but it's pretty complicated [TS]

  right it's got multiple cores and a GPU [TS]

  and iOS it's not just as simple as a [TS]

  memory chip so I haven't been keeping up [TS]

  with Intel and its various woes that [TS]

  much but bottom line you know of all the [TS]

  Apple devices we care about which [TS]

  includes PCs and and iPads and watches [TS]

  and phones and all sorts of other things [TS]

  first one as far as I'm aware to get a [TS]

  10 nanometer chip is this one and the [TS]

  chip is not from Intel so whether or not [TS]

  intel has coronal court lost its lead in [TS]

  process it is it continues to be [TS]

  embarrassing that Apple's system on a [TS]

  chip a xx line of chips are so fast and [TS]

  so low-power and now are on a smaller [TS]

  process than the chips that are in all [TS]

  of apples Mac's so it's kind of exciting [TS]

  slash depressing depending on how you [TS]

  look at it so remind me what it I'm not [TS]

  being funny at all [TS]

  what is the ten nanometer represent the [TS]

  the lines within the processor like the [TS]

  quote unquote wires is that correct or [TS]

  is that not even close [TS]

  I don't know they call it feature size [TS]

  I'm sure there's some standard for [TS]

  measuring from you know this thing to [TS]

  that thing like I think it was like a [TS]

  dot pitch on monitors I'm sure there's [TS]

  some standard because you say well what [TS]

  is a feature like it's from you know [TS]

  from one transistor to another how [TS]

  closely you can pack them together or [TS]

  like I have no idea maybe it's like the [TS]

  center of one to the center of the next [TS]

  one yeah but but there's different [TS]

  geometries like this is there FinFET [TS]

  thing like they're actually 3d if you [TS]

  look at the shape of where the source [TS]

  and drain and in gate and everything is [TS]

  they they all have all these clever [TS]

  arrangements of layers of stuff someone [TS]

  should look up you could probably just [TS]

  go to the Wikipedia to find out but it [TS]

  basically if you think of it like dot [TS]

  pitch on a monitor it's from you know [TS]

  how from the center like Mario saying [TS]

  from the center of one thing to descend [TS]

  the question is how do they determine [TS]

  that because I think there are different [TS]

  sizes and configuration of things that [TS]

  you can put down on a chip I'm assuming [TS]

  it is like the smallest distance between [TS]

  two features so anyway Taiwan [TS]

  Semiconductor doing pretty well Apple [TS]

  with it's a series ships doing pretty [TS]

  well Intel I don't know well doing okay [TS]

  kind of stumbling there was the recent [TS]

  announcement they were getting out of [TS]

  the wearables market that they were [TS]

  never really in yeah I'm gonna say what [TS]

  do they have in the wearables market [TS]

  they had a they had a program in an [TS]

  initiative and it's that like like I've [TS]

  done many times like remember and they [TS]

  tried to get into the standalone GPU [TS]

  market with uh what the hell was that [TS]

  called chat room will tell me you know [TS]

  seconds or so yeah five years ago maybe [TS]

  yeah where they were taking a bunch of [TS]

  little x86 cores and put that on a [TS]

  Larrabee [TS]

  I got a poor the chat room haha and they [TS]

  were gonna make a run at the the GPU [TS]

  market and they had evangelists and they [TS]

  had api's and they had some silicon and [TS]

  it just never came together I said no [TS]

  okay we're we're not gonna do that and [TS]

  then they concentrated them on their [TS]

  internal GPUs like the integrated ones [TS]

  and they've come a long way on that [TS]

  partially supposedly a rumor has it at [TS]

  the behest of Apple asking for more [TS]

  powerful integrated GPU so they don't [TS]

  have to include a discrete GPU and every [TS]

  single Mac just haven't have any [TS]

  graphics performance where the damn [TS]

  they were going to get into wearables [TS]

  and they had an initiative and the head [TS]

  of team and they had a blah blah blah [TS]

  and they've just bailed out they also [TS]

  had a bunch of things like getting into [TS]

  set-top boxes back in the day what I [TS]

  think about all the Intel fail programs [TS]

  so they're gonna enter a new market I [TS]

  mean if you want to trace it all the way [TS]

  backwards this one they divested of all [TS]

  their arm holdings they had boats at the [TS]

  another thing xscale they had arm CPU [TS]

  and they said now we're gonna get out of [TS]

  that business probably gonna turn out to [TS]

  have been a bad idea but in theory I [TS]

  mean it didn't have to be it could have [TS]

  been they get out of that business and [TS]

  they and they made a bunch of you know [TS]

  their own x86 chips that were just as [TS]

  good as the things that Apple's making [TS]

  out but they didn't they didn't make [TS]

  those I can Apple did and so that's how [TS]

  you lose you can trace it back though [TS]

  you should have said there's no [TS]

  guarantee that if they kept XScale that [TS]

  they would have been able to do as good [TS]

  a job as Apple is doing now so it's a [TS]

  weird world we live in for someone who [TS]

  grew up in the wind towel era but I'm [TS]

  still rooting for Intel because they're [TS]

  all those CPUs there and all the Macs [TS]

  and I want a really good Mac so let's [TS]

  get going yeah that's pretty much what [TS]

  why I care about this so much like I [TS]

  know that it's probably for lots of [TS]

  reasons we've discussed before it's it's [TS]

  probably unlikely that we're ever gonna [TS]

  see or at least I guess Never Say Never [TS]

  but that anytime soon we're gonna see [TS]

  Apple bring the a line of arm CPUs to [TS]

  the Mac and have arm Macs and that's [TS]

  kind of a shame because these CPUs are [TS]

  awesome like if they keep making these [TS]

  amazing chips and and with their [TS]

  in-house designs that are kicking the [TS]

  butts of everything else in the middle [TS]

  in the middle market and Intel is really [TS]

  you know having a hard time getting [TS]

  incremental performance scans every [TS]

  every time they release something and [TS]

  the reef having a hard time releasing [TS]

  anything so I I kind of wish that more [TS]

  of this excitement would be available on [TS]

  the Mac side because you know who knows [TS]

  what they could do right now they they [TS]

  have this amazing a 10x chip based on [TS]

  the amazing a-10 ship making the iPad [TS]

  very competitive with low ed max in CPU [TS]

  performance and imagine what they could [TS]

  do with that if they let it run in a 150 [TS]

  watt desktop enclosure that would be [TS]

  that could be really amazed [TS]

  but you know if lots of reasons we've [TS]

  discussed before basically like you know [TS]

  making our max is neither easy nor [TS]

  likely but I do think that's kind of a [TS]

  shame because there's all this exciting [TS]

  stuff happening over in the arm world [TS]

  that US Mac fans are just kind of you [TS]

  know not a part of or minimally a part [TS]

  of I continue to think that there is [TS]

  nothing specifically magical about arm [TS]

  that guarantees that if Apple did have a [TS]

  team and said hey you've got a hundred [TS]

  fifty watt power budget go nuts they [TS]

  would just have to end up doing all the [TS]

  same things that Intel does with its [TS]

  Xeon only until probably has a bunch of [TS]

  them patented and Apple doesn't [TS]

  experience with them because you do end [TS]

  up making different choices when you [TS]

  have a ridiculously high power budget [TS]

  like that and there's no secret sauce [TS]

  that only Apple knows and a lot of the [TS]

  tricks they know from their experience [TS]

  with low power stuff are not applicable [TS]

  to 150 watt power envelope so you know I [TS]

  think they would make good chips no [TS]

  doubt and maybe they would make ones [TS]

  that are actually better than what Intel [TS]

  offers but it's not I don't feel like [TS]

  they would be crushing them in the same [TS]

  way that they're crushing on the you [TS]

  know on the low power side because this [TS]

  is not Apple's first chip like what was [TS]

  the a6 was their first you know sort of [TS]

  their own design yeah they've had years [TS]

  and years to get this good at system on [TS]

  a chips in tablets and phones they have [TS]

  no experience so far and I'm making you [TS]

  know a Xeon class processor so even if [TS]

  they did make one the best you could [TS]

  hope for is probably like parity or a [TS]

  slight edge on Intel's things because [TS]

  they can make different choices but give [TS]

  them four or five years and I think [TS]

  they'd be doing really well but who [TS]

  knows then we wouldn't be able to run [TS]

  Windows as well as we can now so that [TS]

  would be friends Windows anymore what [TS]

  years this I do okay so you know I don't [TS]

  I don't need more used to real developer [TS]

  now my apologies to everyone who has to [TS]

  develop on Windows I feel bad for you [TS]

  hey man I I maintain c-sharp [TS]

  is an unbelievably good language it's [TS]

  just everything around it that's got me [TS]

  I agree [TS]

  I completely agree yeah and and [TS]

  Microsoft has almost always they do [TS]

  really good at developer tooling like [TS]

  they're really good at that just Windows [TS]

  is terrible but the developer tools are [TS]

  usually great but yeah and they're you [TS]

  know one thing before we cap off this [TS]

  topic is that I do think that you know [TS]

  even though my example of you know the [TS]

  hundred fifty watt Mac [TS]

  Pro slash you know high-end iMac ship [TS]

  would maybe be hard for them to to move [TS]

  to the a 10x you know the iPad class of [TS]

  chip they're making now which is not [TS]

  that different from the iPhone class [TS]

  chip they're making is probably suitable [TS]

  for at least the bottom two lines of Mac [TS]

  books at least the MacBook 12-inch and [TS]

  at least the what I call the macbook [TS]

  escape the the non touch bar 13-inch [TS]

  MacBook Pro I bet they could make an A [TS]

  Series chip that would be very [TS]

  competitive in those two form factors [TS]

  yeah I mean they already do practically [TS]

  yeah exactly like just a question of the [TS]

  GPU and by the way as making me think [TS]

  about things about Mac losing out like [TS]

  oh so they're missing out on apples on [TS]

  the potential of Apple's expertise in [TS]

  the areas where they've shown they can [TS]

  make really good chip and their [TS]

  potential expertise for higher bandwidth [TS]

  chips and also Apple thus far is missing [TS]

  out on the other place that the action [TS]

  is happening that is relevant to the Mac [TS]

  in terms of silicon chips that are [TS]

  inside their nvidia gpus that is [TS]

  currently where a lot of the exciting [TS]

  high-end action is happening on desktop [TS]

  computers and Apple is thus far [TS]

  pretending it doesn't exist and [TS]

  continuing to ship AMD / ATI GPUs which [TS]

  are fine but it's not you know it's like [TS]

  the excitement is happening on the arm [TS]

  side with Apple's own things and in the [TS]

  GPU land that discrete GPU land the [TS]

  excitement is happening on NVIDIA side [TS]

  of the fence and Apple is like now we're [TS]

  just don't Intel and AMD and we'll just [TS]

  ignore ignore all those fireworks and [TS]

  then the happy laughter happening in [TS]

  other areas and I do think ultimately [TS]

  one of the biggest reasons why we're [TS]

  unlikely to see our Mac's for the [TS]

  foreseeable future is I really don't [TS]

  think that a lot of Mac apps would be [TS]

  rewritten or recompiled four-armed in a [TS]

  prompt manner like I think the Mac is [TS]

  you know in some parts of the Mac are [TS]

  very healthy content creation [TS]

  you know Pro high-end productivity tools [TS]

  these are fairly healthy but there's a [TS]

  whole lot of Mac apps out there that are [TS]

  basically unmaintained and some of which [TS]

  are very very old and they continue to [TS]

  work now just because you know the [TS]

  architecture hasn't changed in a long [TS]

  time you know in over 10 [TS]

  and so it's they continue to work but I [TS]

  worry if Apple were to force an [TS]

  incompatible move to the basis of the [TS]

  operating system I worry about what [TS]

  would happen to the at the ecosystem I [TS]

  bet we'd lose a lot of apps as we're [TS]

  seeing right now with I mean look i OS [TS]

  in this way [TS]

  iOS is way healthier than the Mac OS and [TS]

  the transition to Mac o to iOS 11 is [TS]

  losing lots of apps just from the 64 bit [TS]

  change it was only a few years ago for [TS]

  the Mac to change CPU architectures it [TS]

  would be it would be it would be I think [TS]

  really difficult to move automatic [TS]

  software over just because so much of [TS]

  its up maintained numerically iOS [TS]

  obviously would lose marcus's [TS]

  numerically got so much more but on the [TS]

  Mac I have some confidence you know the [TS]

  Mac has gone through this multiple times [TS]

  before in the past that yes you always [TS]

  leave stuff behind [TS]

  but the apps that we care about would be [TS]

  ported just just like they report from [TS]

  68k to PowerPC and those same apps that [TS]

  we care about that we're still arm [TS]

  reported from PowerPC to Intel and they [TS]

  were ported from Intel 32-bit to 64-bit [TS]

  and they would report it from 64-bit [TS]

  don't think perhaps we care about what [TS]

  would be for this maybe like one or two [TS]

  random abandoned apps that you would [TS]

  lose but numerically speaking on iOS [TS]

  there's just so many apps and we all [TS]

  have some I think a lot do you think you [TS]

  have more apps installed on cumulative e [TS]

  on your iOS devices are on your Mac's [TS]

  like numerically each application icon [TS]

  counts as one thing oh it's no question [TS]

  iOS I would guess the same yeah yeah [TS]

  probably maybe not on my iPad or my [TS]

  iPhone yes I think my iPad is relatively [TS]

  lean and mean but but iPhone yeah I [TS]

  think Marco is right how many [TS]

  applications are in your Applications [TS]

  folder on your Mac just pick a random [TS]

  Mac I have a hundred and twenty-nine 112 [TS]

  although many of these I barely even [TS]

  recognize how long so infrequently yeah [TS]

  I know we all have junk in there oh this [TS]

  is this is reassuring so in my [TS]

  Applications folder I have two [TS]

  applications called System Preferences [TS]

  which apparently exactly the same name [TS]

  that's good [TS]

  does not make me feel good this is from [TS]

  2014 and the second one is from 2015 26 [TS]

  and one of them does not have a dot app [TS]

  extension that makes me feel good I got [TS]

  to clear a lot of this crap out of here [TS]

  my god anyway you want to guess how many [TS]

  applications I have in my application I [TS]

  mean if I have 129 and I keep things [TS]

  pretty minimal [TS]

  I'm gonna guess you have 200 maybe yeah [TS]

  I'm gonna say 250 is it Price is Right [TS]

  rules no no okay I don't about one [TS]

  application 311 oh wow you and but like [TS]

  how many do you actually use on a [TS]

  regular basis not 311 like I probably [TS]

  use something like 20 or 30 on a regular [TS]

  basis I mean you know the Mac Mac tools [TS]

  tend to be larger in scope and fewer in [TS]

  number for a lot of people I would bet [TS]

  there's a lot more like large [TS]

  productivity tools large creation tools [TS]

  large library tools as opposed to our [TS]

  iOS where you have a whole bunch of [TS]

  stuff that does like little things or [TS]

  one one thing at a time [TS]

  not to mention iOS has games and the Mac [TS]

  unfortunately doesn't I do have a [TS]

  subfolder for games let's see what's in [TS]

  that I have a supporter for Mac ports [TS]

  that I haven't touched I mean I mean I [TS]

  have a steam icon there too all right so [TS]

  the game's folder only have 42 items but [TS]

  there are subfolders in there so it just [TS]

  goes on I got a lot of here's the thing [TS]

  with the reason I have so many [TS]

  applications is they don't on the Mac [TS]

  applications don't aren't in your face [TS]

  like they are in iOS like in springboard [TS]

  they're in your face unless you bury [TS]

  them in a folder like all of them are [TS]

  like and I don't watch applications but [TS]

  on the application feel like nobody does [TS]

  you do command space or whatever right [TS]

  yeah um and whenever I use like disk [TS]

  inventory X or whatever to find out [TS]

  where all my space is being taken up [TS]

  it's never with applications because in [TS]

  the grand scheme of things they're tiny [TS]

  you know I one terabyte drive even a [TS]

  huge application like maybe occasionally [TS]

  like Markel I get cranky at some [TS]

  multi-gigabyte sound samples that are [TS]

  part of some stupid Apple application [TS]

  but other than that all the data is [TS]

  elsewhere so I never ended up deleting [TS]

  application it's like I look in here and [TS]

  I've got like multiple old I've got [TS]

  delicious library two and three I've got [TS]

  many applications where they're like the [TS]

  history of the application is present in [TS]

  the folder as the versions and the [TS]

  numbers in the [TS]

  yes I never I never ended up believing [TS]

  them because it's not as and don't get [TS]

  me wrong my iOS home screens are also a [TS]

  giant graveyard of ancient files which [TS]

  is why I'm kind of dreading when they [TS]

  drop 32-bit support because it's gonna [TS]

  well dreading and looking forward to [TS]

  because it'll it'll like reduce the [TS]

  number of applications by half because I [TS]

  think I still have applications there [TS]

  from like my original iPod Touch they've [TS]

  just been carrying along from iTunes [TS]

  backup to iTunes backup I only had I [TS]

  think two yeah i've scorekeeper excel [TS]

  and I cast Pro and the scorekeeper [TS]

  developer said he's updating it i cast [TS]

  has already done a new version that's [TS]

  like a million dollars so you know [TS]

  they're not actually really going to be [TS]

  lost he's I guess something you used to [TS]

  do the live broadcast from the road I [TS]

  used to yes it's a nice cast server [TS]

  nice cast broadcaster rather so I used [TS]

  to do that from the road now I just [TS]

  bring a Mac and use programming business [TS]

  nice cast AB because it's because it [TS]

  really I mean what I learned you know [TS]

  while doing our live show and you know [TS]

  setting up for that and doing various [TS]

  things over the last few years I've [TS]

  learned basically that I greatly prefer [TS]

  max to be in those kind of production [TS]

  roles and not just for like superstition [TS]

  of max being reliable on iPad and iOS [TS]

  not being but just for the flexibility [TS]

  they offer and and the like you can do [TS]

  what you can do these things in iOS if [TS]

  you need to but I'm much happier and [TS]

  more versatile when I'm doing it on the [TS]

  Mac if that makes sense I mean we all [TS]

  know that you can't get work done on iOS [TS]

  so that's why you're doing it on a [TS]

  minute oh my god I still have Firefox [TS]

  does anybody still use Firefox so we've [TS]

  gone during the pre-show that hopefully [TS]

  has not hit the regular show of watching [TS]

  TV as a group and now we're letting all [TS]

  the people listen to us lunge through [TS]

  and go spelunking through our [TS]

  application folders as a group this is [TS]

  the make MKV I haven't ripped a blu-ray [TS]

  in the years I just did that yesterday [TS]

  I have Firefox I also have make him kV I [TS]

  rip days of thunder yesterday it's a [TS]

  great movie see I don't need I don't [TS]

  need to rip anything I can just play [TS]

  some of your plex server I know that's [TS]

  whatever that's exactly what I was doing [TS]

  and we bought Days of Thunder on blu-ray [TS]

  but blu-rays are barbaric in [TS]

  I immediately ripped it and it is now on [TS]

  flex oh I still have openttd I should [TS]

  play that the Transport Tycoon I have [TS]

  applications with like the circle with a [TS]

  line through it I should just probably [TS]

  delete those I don't think I've ever [TS]

  even seen that did not run on my fancy [TS]

  new version of Mac OS called El Capitan [TS]

  man I can't even imagine cleaning out [TS]

  John's 10 year old computer like that [TS]

  there I what you must find there must [TS]

  never never clean it that's the secret [TS]

  we respond to this week by fracture a [TS]

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  photos directly onto glass visit [TS]

  fracture slash podcast for 10% [TS]

  off your first order fractures a photo [TS]

  de coeur company that's out to rescue [TS]

  your images from the digital ether they [TS]

  don't they know if you just post a [TS]

  picture to Facebook or whatever it's [TS]

  gone off people's timelines in what a [TS]

  day at most and you never see it again [TS]

  fracture wants you to take those [TS]

  favorite pictures and get them printed [TS]

  and hang them in your house or give them [TS]

  the people as gifts they make wonderful [TS]

  gifts for any occasion for family and [TS]

  friends and they really make your house [TS]

  look lived in and they show your [TS]

  memories to you and everyone comes over [TS]

  we have these all over our house they [TS]

  get tons of compliments it's nice to get [TS]

  photos printed once in a while it really [TS]

  isn't fracture is the best and easiest [TS]

  way to do that and these are printed on [TS]

  glass so it goes edge to edge if the [TS]

  colors look great they really pop the [TS]

  contrast really pops and it just looks [TS]

  sleek and it looks modern you'd like to [TS]

  get them framed because they are their [TS]

  own independent object it's wonderful [TS]

  they have a laser-cut rigid backing so [TS]

  the whole thing isn't it so it doesn't [TS]

  glass front to back that would be really [TS]

  heavy and fragile it's a glass in the [TS]

  front and there's rigid backing on the [TS]

  back so it's very lightweight and easy [TS]

  to hang they even include a wall anchor [TS]

  right in the box it's so easy to get [TS]

  these things all you have to do is [TS]

  upload a picture and pick your size [TS]

  that's it so you can bring a special [TS]

  memory to life with these prints give [TS]

  them as unique gifts or decorate your [TS]

  home with the moments to tell your story [TS]

  every fracture print comes with a 60-day [TS]

  happiness guarantees or your shirt all [TS]

  of your order and they're all handmade [TS]

  in Gainesville Florida from US source [TS]

  materials in a carbon neutral factory [TS]

  for more information and 10% off your [TS]

  first order visit fracture slash [TS]

  podcast the less you which podcast sent [TS]

  you tell them a tipi [TS]

  and that'll help support the show so [TS]

  thank you very much to fracture for [TS]

  sponsoring our show once again so in the [TS]

  show notes near ich the top but never [TS]

  ever ever high enough for us to actually [TS]

  talk about it has been three words and [TS]

  it has been here for months and those [TS]

  three words are Netflix credits skipping [TS]

  and apparently this is enough and John [TS]

  is flustered enough that he would like [TS]

  to talk to us about skipping credits in [TS]

  Netflix I don't know why I'm in for this [TS]

  ride as much as you guys are so let's [TS]

  all buckle up together we are really [TS]

  scraping the bottom of the barrel here [TS]

  we really this is from March so yes it [TS]

  has been there for many many months the [TS]

  story will link to the verge thing goes [TS]

  by now the only you are all we have for [TS]

  the stories that Netflix in their normal [TS]

  way was like testing this new feature on [TS]

  some platforms and some clients for [TS]

  Netflix that when you're watching a show [TS]

  on Netflix and the credits come on the [TS]

  opening credits to the show again there [TS]

  would be a button in the interface [TS]

  somewhere that says skip credits and [TS]

  yeah when we were in Chicago we were we [TS]

  were finishing up house of cards and I [TS]

  had done that by connecting my my [TS]

  macbook adorable to the TV and I saw and [TS]

  use that button and so that was on the [TS]

  web client yeah and then I'm not sure [TS]

  where they're rolling it out to my [TS]

  clients or whatever but it's not [TS]

  everywhere and it seems like this thing [TS]

  they're testing now already for several [TS]

  years Netflix had a thing where if [TS]

  you're like binge watching and you watch [TS]

  one episode and the next episodes gonna [TS]

  come that it will not show the credits [TS]

  to the subsequent episode so just get [TS]

  right to the program I've seen that I [TS]

  don't know if that shows specific or [TS]

  whatever but it's been doing that for a [TS]

  long time so if you sit down and watch [TS]

  five episodes of the program you don't [TS]

  have to see the opening credits five [TS]

  times but you would have to see it once [TS]

  for the first one and now with the [TS]

  skipped credits thing it would be like [TS]

  if you don't want to see the opening [TS]

  credits toss of cards because you're [TS]

  afraid you'll die of old age you're on [TS]

  the right interface you can click this [TS]

  button to skip it and the reason I put [TS]

  those notes so long ago is that [TS]

  four years ago four years before this [TS]

  feature was added to Netflix I am one of [TS]

  my rare fits of blogging wrote a blog [TS]

  post about this very thing about the [TS]

  idea of credit skipping in Netflix type [TS]

  environment specifically it was also in [TS]

  the context of the PlayStation 4 which [TS]

  was not yet out but had been announced [TS]

  and the features have been announced and [TS]

  it has had all this post is annoyance [TS]

  driven development the idea that if you [TS]

  look at technology product or something [TS]

  that you're working on and think about [TS]

  the things that annoy you and other [TS]

  people about your product and try to [TS]

  knock those down one by one even if they [TS]

  seem silly I think refreshing another [TS]

  thing that the PlayStation examples were [TS]

  things like being able to pick up a game [TS]

  right where you left off and not having [TS]

  the thing start downloading a software [TS]

  update as soon as you turn it on and so [TS]

  they did a lot of things in the [TS]

  PlayStation 4 to remove the annoyances [TS]

  of the PlayStation 3 by giving it a [TS]

  low-power mode and an auxilary processor [TS]

  that let it do useful things when it's [TS]

  quote-unquote off like the fans are off [TS]

  it's sitting there you think it's [TS]

  completely off but it's not it's [TS]

  downloading software updates in the [TS]

  background it's you know it's preserving [TS]

  the state of your game so you can pick [TS]

  up right where you left off even in [TS]

  tendo is come on this bandwagon a little [TS]

  bit with the switch where you can put a [TS]

  thing into sleep mode pick it up get it [TS]

  out of sleep mode and you are exactly at [TS]

  the second you left off and you're in [TS]

  your Zelda game which makes you want to [TS]

  pick it up and play more than if you had [TS]

  to like wait through a boot sequence or [TS]

  launch the game again or something like [TS]

  that and software updates which are [TS]

  ubiquitous nowadays having it download [TS]

  multiple gigabytes of stuff while you [TS]

  sleep so that when you wake up it's all [TS]

  just already there for you is a great [TS]

  example of annoyance driven development [TS]

  because it's not the end of the world [TS]

  like oh software operators have to [TS]

  happen and there's no getting around the [TS]

  fact that you got have multiple [TS]

  gigabytes and we can't make your [TS]

  internet connection faster it's like but [TS]

  can we design the PlayStation 4 in a way [TS]

  to make this less annoying for people [TS]

  going so far I still have a you know a [TS]

  separate mode with a separate CPU and a [TS]

  low-power state of like it complicates [TS]

  the hardware tremendously but but it's a [TS]

  big win so in terms of streaming video [TS]

  using house of cards as an example [TS]

  because the credit sequence is really [TS]

  really long was saying how how Netflix [TS]

  has changed how you watch television now [TS]

  you have to reconsider everything every [TS]

  part of the experience and think about [TS]

  how annoying [TS]

  and the opening credits aren't annoying [TS]

  in the old world of television where [TS]

  there were no DVRs and you just watch [TS]

  television when it was on and that was [TS]

  it [TS]

  commercials for annoying but that's [TS]

  almost every issue but already with [TS]

  people with Netflix and streaming video [TS]

  they understand that people do binge [TS]

  watching and they did that thing where [TS]

  it will skip the credits to the next [TS]

  episode they just need to go to the next [TS]

  step also by the way reusing entire [TS]

  seasons all at once instead of building [TS]

  them added episode of the time they [TS]

  reconsidered so many things and this [TS]

  seemed like the very next thing on the [TS]

  chopping block which is hey credits they [TS]

  make sense when you are watching [TS]

  television in the old world and the new [TS]

  world do they make as much sense to have [TS]

  opening credits before every single [TS]

  episode or before any episode and I know [TS]

  as I said them as posed as lots of [TS]

  things about union contracts for screen [TS]

  actors and writers and everything and [TS]

  then there's the other angle over like [TS]

  oh people should get credit for their [TS]

  work and blah blah blah like basically [TS]

  the motivation behind all those union [TS]

  rules and everything but I think you [TS]

  can't you have to change you have to [TS]

  change your outlook and the rules [TS]

  surrounding all the stuff as the [TS]

  technology changes and technology is [TS]

  changing how we watch television and so [TS]

  every single aspect of how we watch [TS]

  television should be up for grabs for [TS]

  reconsideration to say is this the best [TS]

  way to do it or is there a better way [TS]

  given how technology has changed how I [TS]

  watch television and apparently Netflix [TS]

  eventually how many years later four [TS]

  years later eventually more or less [TS]

  agrees with me that maybe the credits [TS]

  are a little bit too much and maybe we [TS]

  should give people the option of [TS]

  skipping them entirely if they want [TS]

  there's already no commercials so [TS]

  they've already got that going for them [TS]

  so anyway I was excited enough about [TS]

  this in March to put it in the show [TS]

  notes and to leave it there and now I [TS]

  finally get to talk about it and I feel [TS]

  like this is am I going to say it's [TS]

  vindication because I know a lot of [TS]

  people agreed with me when I originally [TS]

  posted this but it's more of a [TS]

  celebration to say you know I'm actually [TS]

  getting the thing that I was asking for [TS]

  and it seemed inevitable because Netflix [TS]

  is very aggressively set of things I'm [TS]

  just I'm actually surprised it took four [TS]

  years time to do it but more like this [TS]

  please Wow cool I feel better for having [TS]

  listened to that [TS]

  nothing you said was wrong but I felt [TS]

  like this has been sitting in the shoto [TS]

  it's like almost there but not quite [TS]

  there for months then I was expecting [TS]

  some sort that timely it's not like you [TS]

  know so much and you know you don't have [TS]

  a product speak up now that data what [TS]

  what did uh what's it doctor wave say [TS]

  your application was is it a fart app [TS]

  anyway anybody who's listening this who [TS]

  has a product or is involved in making a [TS]

  thing that people use like it's it's a [TS]

  potential edge in the market think about [TS]

  what is annoying about using products of [TS]

  your type and in the next version of [TS]

  your product tried to eliminate those [TS]

  annoyances and don't don't keep any [TS]

  sacred cows like oh we can't change that [TS]

  you will find out you'll find a lot of [TS]

  people hold sacred many things they [TS]

  won't even do anything consider changing [TS]

  like you have to consider everything and [TS]

  reconsider it in the face of technology [TS]

  and find the annoying things and be [TS]

  willing to you know do what something to [TS]

  make your product way more complicated [TS]

  and way more expensive potentially [TS]

  introducing bugs because the payoff is [TS]

  when you people turn on the playstation [TS]

  for us the eleven gigabytes of the [TS]

  destiny to beta is already downloaded [TS]

  and the system update has party happened [TS]

  and they can start playing immediately [TS]

  even if it takes forever to download if [TS]

  it does it while you're sleeping you [TS]

  don't care and there's a hundred percent [TS]

  worth it to add an entire separate CPU [TS]

  and low-power state and special OS mode [TS]

  for this so and also skip those house of [TS]

  cards credits because come on we've all [TS]

  seen them enough nervous so I mean [TS]

  they're beautiful but there's log oh my [TS]

  word it takes forever so uh alright so [TS]

  let's talk about something that always [TS]

  cheers us up Twitter and a while back [TS]

  there was how long was it how long was a [TS]

  while apparently it was October of 2016 [TS]

  why are we talking about a news article [TS]

  from October 2016 I have a reason for [TS]

  this one - oh my god [TS]

  bring it out - dead that's right I'm so [TS]

  sorry listeners for this entire episode [TS]

  you did you apologize here how do you [TS]

  where do Abbasids come from marco when [TS]

  when three podcasters love each other [TS]

  very much [TS]

  somehow every week there's an episode [TS]

  and it's because somebody some elves go [TS]

  into the show notes and find a bunch of [TS]

  topics and put them in there and if [TS]

  you're not gonna do it talk about and [TS]

  try to apologize but I build the show in [TS]

  the notes and that's what we're gonna [TS]

  talk about [TS]

  feel free to rotate something up to the [TS]

  top and then we'll talk about that [TS]

  instead in fact that will offer that [TS]

  opportunity to you now because I just [TS]

  talked about Netflix credit sipping is [TS]

  there something that you would like to [TS]

  talk about that you would like to move [TS]

  up let me see [TS]

  overcast springboard crash your stories [TS]

  that's a good one that's kind of boring [TS]

  and no it's not I think it's exciting [TS]

  it's exciting and it was exciting when [TS]

  it happened but now I forgotten most [TS]

  about it and probably you did too but it [TS]

  was cool it's not even old it's not even [TS]

  old by comparison to October and 2016 [TS]

  months again in a surprising turn of [TS]

  events Marco did not immediately command [TS]

  a and then delete the entire show notes [TS]

  in a fit of rage so down if you scroll [TS]

  down a couple pages we have an item that [TS]

  says Oh God TSMC ahead of intel and [TS]

  process soon question like a crystal [TS]

  ball look at that look at the slug on [TS]

  this ten Adam Eaton nanometer chip [TS]

  foundry process coming to Apple partner [TS]

  TM TSMC a head of Intel reliable news [TS]

  source yeah September of sixteen oh my [TS]

  word you didn't talk about it but guess [TS]

  what they did it came true said that [TS]

  maybe there's how we can make things [TS]

  come true just put them in our show [TS]

  notes in the show notes and it's like [TS]

  burying a time capsule it's like it's [TS]

  like our show notes our show notes are [TS]

  the crock pot of Apple news just wait [TS]

  long enough it's gonna be there oh my [TS]

  god alright so let's talk about Disney [TS]

  since Marco hasn't come up with [TS]

  something better but it'll be the Marco [TS]

  show after this when we talk about [TS]

  overcast in Spring Bernardo should start [TS]

  remembering now all the details of the [TS]

  springboard cracker stuff did you know [TS]

  that letterpress moved off of GameCenter [TS]

  you always [TS]

  do if we get really desperate we should [TS]

  go from the bottom up and just say we're [TS]

  dedicated we have to do it we have to do [TS]

  it just start at the bottom oh my word [TS]

  so bad anyway alright I'm gonna try to [TS]

  bring this back around so at some point [TS]

  one day eventually or the years ago it [TS]

  seems there was some talk in late 2016 [TS]

  about Twitter potentially looking to be [TS]

  bought and there were some potential [TS]

  suitors I don't remember who they were [TS]

  other than Disney wasn't Salesforce in [TS]

  the running [TS]

  uh-huh maybe and so what ended up [TS]

  happening and I didn't get a chance to [TS]

  look at these show notes and refresh my [TS]

  memory so being Chiefs memorizer in [TS]

  chief is a little dangerous today but my [TS]

  recollection is that Disney was kind of [TS]

  sniffing around seeing it maybe we do [TS]

  want Twitter and then realized oh wait [TS]

  Twitter successful disgusting terrible [TS]

  people so yeah we don't want anything to [TS]

  do with that well the reason I put this [TS]

  in there not because I don't care about [TS]

  this whatever people bind is that's all [TS]

  news I don't know why it stayed in the [TS]

  notes I probably wouldn't deleted it but [TS]

  I saw it down there and it brought to [TS]

  mind something what was it was relevant [TS]

  its eternally relevant I forget what [TS]

  this specific inciting incident was but [TS]

  it's about when you have an online [TS]

  community of any kind oh I know what it [TS]

  was it was it was the the pub G thing [TS]

  you guys don't follow this do you do you [TS]

  know who that is [TS]

  anyways new game play or unknown [TS]

  battleground it's a game it's a cool [TS]

  game you'll you'll like the the premise [TS]

  of it we love games yeah well no it's a [TS]

  it's a game mode I think it might have [TS]

  started as a mod and now it's a zone [TS]

  game I always get confused by the [TS]

  details but anyway you are like an army [TS]

  guy you parachute into this you know [TS]

  fairly realistic looking world like a [TS]

  big open field with some trees and [TS]

  buildings and stuff like that and you [TS]

  have to sort of scrounge for weapons and [TS]

  bandages and stuff like that and it's [TS]

  fairly realistic and that you can't take [TS]

  500 bullets like a few bullets kills you [TS]

  right and there are teams and there's [TS]

  sort of a gamey shimmery circle ring [TS]

  dome around the entire play area that [TS]

  starts off really really big but it [TS]

  slowly shrinks over time [TS]

  eventually lever rallying all the people [TS]

  together and eventually there's one [TS]

  person who's left alive right so part [TS]

  your strategy could be I'm just gonna [TS]

  crawl in the grass and hide behind this [TS]

  tree and be like a mile away from [TS]

  everybody but the circle will shrink and [TS]

  shrink and shrink and if you're not out [TS]

  there fighting you're also not getting [TS]

  better weapons and getting healing [TS]

  supplies and stuff like that so it's a [TS]

  fun game mode and they're fun videos to [TS]

  watch because there are teams in this [TS]

  friendly fire and it's and there's no [TS]

  like radar or anything like that you're [TS]

  just like crawling around and going [TS]

  through buildings and some people like [TS]

  camp out and build things and you just [TS]

  go around the door and there's a guy [TS]

  anyway it's very popular game right now [TS]

  and the guy who made the game has like a [TS]

  you know community standards for you [TS]

  know for for his game basically saying [TS]

  if you and if you intentionally kill [TS]

  people on your team because friendly [TS]

  fire is a thing that's against the rules [TS]

  and you get banned [TS]

  you know temporarily banned and I [TS]

  assumed if you keep doing a permanently [TS]

  ban cuz that's bad behavior we don't [TS]

  want someone who comes and you join a [TS]

  game and the guy in your team kills [TS]

  everybody and his own team's takes their [TS]

  stuff like no we don't have that right [TS]

  and he did that to like a popular [TS]

  streamer like twitch streamer and the [TS]

  switch streamer was cranky about it and [TS]

  said some jokey things to him about like [TS]

  how he was going to kick him in the face [TS]

  or something like that and the guy [TS]

  because he had temporarily banned him [TS]

  and he explained to him why he doesn't [TS]

  tolerate even jokey sort of threats of [TS]

  violence or whatever and anyway that was [TS]

  the story like game creator bans popular [TS]

  streamer and has to explain to him why [TS]

  he doesn't think threats of violence are [TS]

  funny you know counter to everything and [TS]

  macho stupid gamer dude culture right [TS]

  and it made me think of Twitter and [TS]

  anybody who has any kind of community [TS]

  whether it's the game that you made and [TS]

  the standards you make for the people [TS]

  who play your game online or Twitter who [TS]

  makes a service that they let people use [TS]

  or you know just think of anything like [TS]

  a website and you have comments section [TS]

  or you have the old style where bulletin [TS]

  boards or whatever online communities [TS]

  and the policing of them it always [TS]

  amazes me that all reddit is a great [TS]

  example always amazes me how reluctant [TS]

  people are in these communities to to [TS]

  enforce any kind of to enforce their [TS]

  will like so we all have opinions about [TS]

  what we think is good and what's not [TS]

  good but the standard sort of nan-oh [TS]

  rest majority opinion of like I you know [TS]

  I haven't I'm not in a group that is [TS]

  frequently the target of abuse or I'm at [TS]

  the top of the pyramid therefore I think [TS]

  everyone should be able to do everything [TS]

  so even though I think something is bad [TS]

  I'm not going to tell people in my [TS]

  community that they can't do that thing [TS]

  because Who am I to judge right and I [TS]

  you know even if removing the motivation [TS]

  is the whole idea of like I want my [TS]

  community to be a place where everyone [TS]

  is free to be themselves and do whatever [TS]

  the heck they want and it almost seems [TS]

  to me at various times on Twitter and [TS]

  other places there is you know there is [TS]

  nothing so terrible that the community [TS]

  the people who run the community would [TS]

  decide that it's not allowed right so [TS]

  it's like I'm sure thank you something [TS]

  for the show that I could use an example [TS]

  like someone comes in and says I'm in [TS]

  favor of eating babies I love to eat [TS]

  babies they come out and I just eat them [TS]

  instantly right perfectly healthy babies [TS]

  I eat them right and people like you [TS]

  know we don't like baby eating can you [TS]

  ban all the people who promote baby [TS]

  eating in this community because they're [TS]

  really annoying and and we're all [TS]

  against it right like everyone here in [TS]

  this community of you know you know [TS]

  knitters or wood working people or you [TS]

  know go-kart enthusiasts or whatever can [TS]

  we just say that if you promote the [TS]

  eating of babies you get banned like no [TS]

  baby eaters right and people run the [TS]

  community be like well I don't like [TS]

  eating babies and I know most people [TS]

  don't like it but those people should [TS]

  have the right to talk about baby eating [TS]

  a second what do you what do you mean [TS]

  the right it's your community as a [TS]

  website that you made it's a product [TS]

  that you made it's not you're not the US [TS]

  government they can talk about eating [TS]

  babies all they want on their front lawn [TS]

  I don't want them in this human and so [TS]

  they decide to make you know where [TS]

  everyone is allowed to do everything [TS]

  because that feels like a gala terian [TS]

  for them and you know it's freedom and [TS]

  even if they don't invoke freedom of [TS]

  speech is like this is the kind of [TS]

  community we want everyone is feels free [TS]

  to say anything they want even is about [TS]

  baby eating and there's a place for that [TS]

  type of thing like you usually call that [TS]

  place for Chan right but whatever but it [TS]

  it it continues to be amazing to me [TS]

  that you see so little of the other [TS]

  thing where they say you know what this [TS]

  is my community and I don't like baby [TS]

  eating and we talk about baby eating [TS]

  here [TS]

  you're banned forever and they're like [TS]

  that's not fair just because you don't [TS]

  like yeah yeah just because I don't like [TS]

  baby eating that's the only reason and [TS]

  this is my community right whether it's [TS]

  this guy with his gamer and that's why [TS]

  you get a situation where this person [TS]

  saying hey killing people on your team [TS]

  is bad and threats of violence on [TS]

  Twitter are bad and you're gonna get [TS]

  banned for it that's why it's a story [TS]

  like that's a story in the gaming news [TS]

  it's it's a Man Bites Dog story right [TS]

  like whoa someone someone decided like [TS]

  their own personal opinion and they [TS]

  enforce their own personal opinion in [TS]

  our community is this first and the [TS]

  worst person ever and for us in their [TS]

  own personal afraid now in Twitter [TS]

  there's no personal opinion Arg is clear [TS]

  as a giant massive corporation but they [TS]

  have the same problem that they seem [TS]

  unable to choose to enforce you know any [TS]

  kind of standards was like well we don't [TS]

  want to enforce our standards and other [TS]

  people on the exam I use babying because [TS]

  I'm hoping to find something that [TS]

  everyone Arden to be like yeah I'm [TS]

  against baby-eating you know the pro [TS]

  baby people go ahead and email us [TS]

  whatever but now I'm gonna say one that [TS]

  you would have used years ago in place [TS]

  of baby eating feeling confident that [TS]

  everyone who's listening to my voice [TS]

  would be like yeah totally baby eating [TS]

  is bad but unfortunately I could not [TS]

  think that these days and that is the [TS]

  example from Twitter where Twitter is [TS]

  like hey are you the neo-nazi party you [TS]

  want to promote a Nazi agenda you're [TS]

  fine on Twitter as long as you don't you [TS]

  know threaten violence or blah blah blah [TS]

  or violate one of our things that we [TS]

  decide we're okay with Nazis like if [TS]

  they just want to talk peacefully about [TS]

  Nazi stuff that's fine with us as long [TS]

  as they don't threaten violence right [TS]

  using all of their speech kind of well [TS]

  like I would just hope that Twitter as a [TS]

  company but like you know what even if [TS]

  Nazis are just like talking calmly about [TS]

  you know their their Nazi agenda no no [TS]

  Nazis like not like are you in a group [TS]

  are you in the neo-nazis you were in an [TS]

  organization right are you affiliated [TS]

  with them you promote that in any way [TS]

  you're banned it's like well you can't [TS]

  ban them that's freedom it's like no no [TS]

  they can have their meetings like they [TS]

  can talk about their Nazi things they [TS]

  just can't be on Twitter but Twitter [TS]

  seemingly cannot bring itself to do that [TS]

  cuz it would be seen as like oh oh don't [TS]

  go there because they don't let you if [TS]

  they don't like what they're saying they [TS]

  ban you right and not just like you know [TS]

  things that we all agree are bad but [TS]

  just like political ideas like the Nazi [TS]

  Party like some people are just into [TS]

  that man why can't just looks like can't [TS]

  we just say no and Twitter and many [TS]

  other companies inability to draw the [TS]

  line [TS]

  yeah and draw whatever what it wants to [TS]

  draw it like they I feel like you know [TS]

  you lose all the Nazi people yeah the [TS]

  Nazi people would go elsewhere they'll [TS]

  have to go someplace else like well but [TS]

  if I then if I ban too many things [TS]

  everyone will leave in our daily active [TS]

  users will go it's like yeah you have to [TS]

  make that choice [TS]

  I feel confident if I was running [TS]

  Twitter did we ban all the Nazis just on [TS]

  principle like they don't have to do [TS]

  anything bad they're just they're just [TS]

  gone right that you won't lose so many [TS]

  users but and the user you do lose [TS]

  it's good that you're losing them right [TS]

  and so it frustrates me as a user [TS]

  Twitter and many other services to see [TS]

  the unwillingness to to enforce you know [TS]

  personal standards and even what you [TS]

  know if more people did this that would [TS]

  mean people gonna have weird personal [TS]

  standards they're gonna be like sorry [TS]

  nobody his name begins with the letter J [TS]

  and then I can't join their service and [TS]

  I would be mad about it right but it's [TS]

  their service like they can do to make [TS]

  up their own stupid rules right I'm just [TS]

  saying like maybe the baby years in the [TS]

  Nazis maybe get rid of them and it's [TS]

  like well who cares it the Twitter's [TS]

  being more successful if they let [TS]

  everybody in but things like these [TS]

  rumors about Oh someone was gonna buy [TS]

  you but your service is successful that [TS]

  you know the your choices have a [TS]

  material effect on your company not just [TS]

  on the users but you should care about [TS]

  like what's it like to use Twitter the [TS]

  decisions about what isn't isn't allowed [TS]

  effect what it's like to use Twitter [TS]

  they also affect potentially who's [TS]

  willing to buy you right and they they [TS]

  affect your image like there's tangible [TS]

  and intangible repercussions to this so [TS]

  I continue to hope that more services [TS]

  will act like small services with one [TS]

  opinionated person like the guy who runs [TS]

  the you know player unknowns [TS]

  battlegrounds to say I have rules and [TS]

  these are my rules and you might not [TS]

  like the rules that's my damn game you [TS]

  don't like the rules go somewhere else [TS]

  make your own game right you don't like [TS]

  the rules and Twitter Nazis we're [TS]

  banning you all from Twitter go [TS]

  make your own service go someplace else [TS]

  go do another thing because we're not [TS]

  the US government so anyway I'm against [TS]

  baby-eating up against Nazis I'm also [TS]

  against player killing in battleground [TS]

  how do you feel about people whose need [TS]

  to get with J neutral a lot of people we [TS]

  were sponsored this week by Eero [TS]

  go to eurocom and use code ATP for free [TS]

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  Wi-Fi made easy for you at home [TS]

  the single router model just does not [TS]

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  your whole house and it still doesn't [TS]

  what you need is a distributed Wi-Fi [TS]

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  the process it's quick easy and very [TS]

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  you right in the palm of your hand you [TS]

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  network if you want it's full of [TS]

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  through it very very easy to use app and [TS]

  it's all protected with state-of-the-art [TS]

  encryption an era also has incredible [TS]

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  expert within 30 seconds if you have any [TS]

  concerns about any devices during setup [TS]

  one of their experts can walk you [TS]

  through everything they can even help if [TS]

  you if you just want to know how many [TS]

  you should buy for your house just give [TS]

  them a call I've tried Eero and it's [TS]

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  it was to set up it literally took [TS]

  minutes to set up and the app is truly [TS]

  wonderful and they just released their [TS]

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  generation arrow is now they have an [TS]

  additional five gigahertz radio so they [TS]

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  tribe and it's twice as fast as the [TS]

  predecessor it includes a new thread [TS]

  radio for a certain low-power devices [TS]

  such as locks and doorbells and sensors [TS]

  and the new ero beacon which is it which [TS]

  is a new like separate type of just a [TS]

  repeater unit that they have is even [TS]

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  sighs now so it's even smell these [TS]

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  once again eurocom EE ro calm and use [TS]

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  shipping thank you very much to ero for [TS]

  sponsoring this the show once again [TS]

  [Music] [TS]

  Marco you had some very interesting [TS]

  overcast crashes that you had a little [TS]

  bit of trouble figuring out and [TS]

  justifiably because having heard the [TS]

  story back a couple of months ago when [TS]

  you did discover what this fix was I [TS]

  thought to myself my goodness I don't [TS]

  know if I would have ever been able to [TS]

  figure this out but I think it's a [TS]

  really interesting to the best of your [TS]

  recollection story of both what was [TS]

  going on why it was going on and how you [TS]

  discovered it so can you take us through [TS]

  this maybe starting with like how did [TS]

  you discover there was an issue in the [TS]

  first place [TS]

  iTunes Connect the backend for the App [TS]

  Store reports your number of crashes for [TS]

  each version of your app and this is as [TS]

  reported by people who opt in to sharing [TS]

  the stats with Apple and developers [TS]

  during the iPhone setup process I [TS]

  started seeing a big uptick in crashing [TS]

  I started noticing a separate problem to [TS]

  which is my app would crash in the [TS]

  background a lot I get all these crash [TS]

  logs for background crashes I didn't [TS]

  immediately identify it as such what I [TS]

  immediately saw was my app would not [TS]

  resume playback if you if you hadn't [TS]

  been running in a while so like if you [TS]

  if you sent a play command like let's [TS]

  say you get in your car and you and the [TS]

  Bluetooth turns on it sends a play [TS]

  commander or you put on Bluetooth [TS]

  headphones and you hit the play button [TS]

  on them I notice that the app was not in [TS]

  memory anymore [TS]

  I started getting getting reports that [TS]

  were on a generator from springboard [TS]

  that that was it was terminating me in [TS]

  the background for [TS]

  holding on to a shared lock on the [TS]

  database file so I did a number of [TS]

  things to try to fix this [TS]

  I had read somewhere that if you open up [TS]

  a background task assertion so in I [TS]

  forget you know how if the Mac does this [TS]

  but but if the iOS you do the UI [TS]

  background task ID and you say begin [TS]

  background tasks with it then a fire and [TS]

  it can basically give you a little [TS]

  handle and you know you do your task and [TS]

  then you tell it okay I finished that [TS]

  end this task and then if your app is [TS]

  about to be terminated for whatever [TS]

  reason and you have one of these open [TS]

  the system will give you a little bit of [TS]

  extra time to go complete that so [TS]

  somewhere I read some articles that was [TS]

  you know that I can't find now you know [TS]

  which is probably good to protect the [TS]

  init the not so innocent but someone [TS]

  somewhere I read some article that said [TS]

  in order to fix these crashes about [TS]

  holding on to the lock too long just [TS]

  open up a background task for every [TS]

  database query that you make because the [TS]

  the way sequel Lite works is every query [TS]

  it temporarily locks the database file [TS]

  does what it needs to do and then [TS]

  unlocks it and this is required because [TS]

  that's how you have different processes [TS]

  sharing a file or rather sharing a [TS]

  database through sequel Lite without [TS]

  some kind of server managing the [TS]

  background blade like you mice QL would [TS]

  have a server but sequel Lite doesn't so [TS]

  anyway I sort needs to do firelock ug to [TS]

  do this stuff so I you know got this tip [TS]

  from some random blog post that Oh wrap [TS]

  every database query in a background [TS]

  task assertion and then you won't have [TS]

  this problem anymore that was [TS]

  technically true in the sense that oh [TS]

  you again when I shipped the version [TS]

  that included this fix it was [TS]

  technically true that I was no longer [TS]

  getting killed with that background code [TS]

  however what was happening is I noticed [TS]

  that my crash rate rather than going [TS]

  down went way way up it took me a while [TS]

  to figure out what was going on and [TS]

  during this time that I was trying to [TS]

  figure out was going on I also noticed [TS]

  that as I would be listening to overcast [TS]

  like in the car on on long car trips [TS]

  sometimes my entire iPhone would crash [TS]

  and it would do what nerds might know as [TS]

  a respring which is the phone does not [TS]

  reboot but it looks like it's rebooting [TS]

  and it just comes back up faster and [TS]

  what listen you see the little spinner [TS]

  all your apps quit and then eventually [TS]

  you get back to your lockscreen [TS]

  and the way you can tell that it wasn't [TS]

  the real reboot is a touch ID is still [TS]

  on because you know when you reboot for [TS]

  real you have to enter your passcode the [TS]

  first time but if it does a little [TS]

  spinner and back to the lock screen all [TS]

  your apps are gone and touch ID works [TS]

  that was a springboard crash not a full [TS]

  reboot and I noticed my phone was doing [TS]

  this more and more and it was very [TS]

  inconvenient at time such as when I was [TS]

  driving and following directions in in [TS]

  ways and and my directions were just [TS]

  gone for a little while while all the [TS]

  apps got killed when I had to restart [TS]

  everything but anyway and I started [TS]

  getting reapportion people saying my [TS]

  phone keeps crashing with overcast but I [TS]

  can't figure out why and it took until [TS]

  one guy sent me a video that he showed [TS]

  something amazingly useful to me he said [TS]

  look overcast if you if you pause it in [TS]

  the background and you bring up control [TS]

  center so you can see like that overcast [TS]

  is still in the now playing thing in [TS]

  control center after 10 minutes exactly [TS]

  or what no I think it was like three [TS]

  minutes anyway after some short duration [TS]

  of minutes it disappears reliably every [TS]

  time so that led me to finally catch the [TS]

  inner debugger and to see that I was [TS]

  being killed with a certain crash of a [TS]

  certain code and it still was not enough [TS]

  to actually figure it out because the [TS]

  code I was getting killed with was [TS]

  you've you've exceeded some limit it's [TS]

  like okay well helpful maybe you know [TS]

  thanks but you know I have no idea still [TS]

  and I kept I tried a few things trying [TS]

  to figure out what limit at my exceeding [TS]

  here what does this code mean eventually [TS]

  I I realized that this would also [TS]

  sometimes correspond with one of the [TS]

  springboard crashes for the whole film [TS]

  crash and so I thought I wonder if this [TS]

  is related I direct messaged somebody [TS]

  who who I know on the springboard team I [TS]

  basically said look I'm at my wit's end [TS]

  here I can't figure this out is there [TS]

  anything that would cause this [TS]

  - code to be sent to my app that might [TS]

  sometimes crash springboard little while [TS]

  later I hear [TS]

  oh there's actually like a bug report [TS]

  internal to Apple talking about how over [TS]

  cash is causing this problem oh they're [TS]

  just like I don't so there is actually [TS]

  there is like a process that happens [TS]

  sometimes inside of Apple where if you [TS]

  have an app that's causing lots of [TS]

  problems for for Apple like they there [TS]

  is sometimes you'll you will hear from [TS]

  one of the event one of the developer [TS]

  evangelists about it this has happened [TS]

  to me maybe like once or twice ever so [TS]

  it isn't this is nothing that happens [TS]

  often but this was happening in the [TS]

  lead-up to WWDC this is only a couple [TS]

  weeks before it everybody to see I think [TS]

  if I remember correctly and so the [TS]

  problem with that is that this is the [TS]

  time when the entire like all of Apple [TS]

  is basically freaking out rushing to [TS]

  finish the WDC betas because that's like [TS]

  the first time the OS is really going to [TS]

  see any kind of wide attention it's [TS]

  gonna be installed on a bunch of [TS]

  developer devices and a bunch of [TS]

  enthusiasts who say they're developers [TS]

  who aren't and just use the developer [TS]

  betas anyway so there's a massive rush [TS]

  right before it everybody see for [TS]

  anybody who works in any anything near [TS]

  these new os's to just get it done get [TS]

  to get that first beta ready for the [TS]

  public and so this was happening during [TS]

  that big crunch time so I imagine it's [TS]

  look at the cracks you know I'm sure it [TS]

  was on somebody's to-do list to maybe [TS]

  see if they get reach out to me or [TS]

  something and they didn't because you [TS]

  can you can imagine Apple is not so keen [TS]

  on an app that can crash springboard [TS]

  like that's not something that apps are [TS]

  supposed to be able to do basically so [TS]

  there was this internal thing that I [TS]

  just happened to like I happened to ask [TS]

  somebody who started looking around who [TS]

  happened to find this and then basically [TS]

  the notes that Apple engineering had had [TS]

  had noticed about it was that I was [TS]

  taking a large number of background [TS]

  assertions in the app which was [TS]

  apparently causing springboard is member [TS]

  has like a watchdog that goes along and [TS]

  checks various limits every few minutes [TS]

  and that watchdog one looked at how many [TS]

  background assertions I had because I [TS]

  was doing one for every database query [TS]

  but so like you know typical typical [TS]

  load the app is gonna make probably a [TS]

  few hundred database queries over the [TS]

  course of navigate in the first few [TS]

  screens so you know we're talking over [TS]

  the course of typical usage I might make [TS]

  a few hundred to a few thousand database [TS]

  queries over over like you know a [TS]

  well-used session of the app the [TS]

  background tasks API was designed back [TS]

  you know in the early days of iOS for [TS]

  you to take out like one background task [TS]

  assertion if you're like finishing [TS]

  uploading a file to a web service or [TS]

  doing let you know doing some kind of [TS]

  sync operation like okay take a [TS]

  background certian finished sync [TS]

  operation and then give it back and so [TS]

  apparently this was designed for [TS]

  something more on the order of like [TS]

  hundreds of these to happen during a [TS]

  process not thousands of these to happen [TS]

  the way I was doing it with every [TS]

  database query and this was causing two [TS]

  problems number one it would cause this [TS]

  this watchdog that goes around to check [TS]

  to see if you've exceeded your limits it [TS]

  would cause it to kill my app to say hey [TS]

  you've exceeded your limits but [TS]

  apparently there was also a bug in that [TS]

  watchdog in older versions of iOS before [TS]

  11 that sometimes if you had such a [TS]

  ridiculous number of him as I did that [TS]

  watchdog would crash and because it's a [TS]

  part of the system if that crashes [TS]

  basically all springboard comes down and [TS]

  is brought back up this has been fixed [TS]

  in iOS 11 but it was not fixed for at [TS]

  least the earlier parts of 10 I don't [TS]

  know if the very last version 10 might [TS]

  affect I don't know honestly but so [TS]

  basically overcast was not only exposing [TS]

  its own limit crossing behavior and by [TS]

  the way I don't know what that limit is [TS]

  nobody will tell me what that limit is [TS]

  it doesn't really matter for my purposes [TS]

  all that matters is background test or [TS]

  something to be you know used not in the [TS]

  thousands but basically I was causing [TS]

  springboard to crash and I greatly [TS]

  greatly appreciate both the the user who [TS]

  sent me the video who [TS]

  that it would be terminated after a [TS]

  certain number of minutes cuz that'll [TS]

  have me to get the crash code that was [TS]

  reliably causing this problem and I also [TS]

  greatly appreciate anybody inside Apple [TS]

  who who helped me track this down and I [TS]

  really don't appreciate the blog post [TS]

  I've read back forever ago and I'm glad [TS]

  I can't find it now but so but I tell [TS]

  you all now any developers listening [TS]

  don't use background task IDs for [TS]

  frequently occurring things like [TS]

  database queries that is too granular [TS]

  and the solution to the problem ended up [TS]

  being something totally different we are [TS]

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  investing made better so going back to [TS]

  the original problem the problem was I [TS]

  was holding on to a shared file lock it [TS]

  in the shared app container because the [TS]

  database file so quick very quick [TS]

  overview I apologize to non-programmers [TS]

  this is probably very boring I've been [TS]

  trying to not talk about this for weeks [TS]

  and John's finally making me this week [TS]

  anyway so I'm not just him okay you to [TS]

  it so anyway long long [TS]

  explanation slightly less long again iOS [TS]

  apps are totally isolated from each [TS]

  other [TS]

  other [TS]

  they you know for security reasons for [TS]

  for control reasons for user [TS]

  friendliness there's lots of good [TS]

  reasons [TS]

  iOS apps if you if your if your app [TS]

  wants to read or write a file for its [TS]

  Dylan for its own data purposes it [TS]

  writes it in a special sandbox folder [TS]

  that it can't read or write anything [TS]

  outside of that and no other apps can [TS]

  read its files and this is extremely [TS]

  enforced such that even if you have [TS]

  multiple apps from the same developer [TS]

  they are isolated from each other even [TS]

  if you have extensions of your app [TS]

  because an extension is technically [TS]

  running as a separate process on the [TS]

  system the extension can't read and [TS]

  write the same data as them as its [TS]

  parent app even like that's how walled [TS]

  off everything is in iOS for various you [TS]

  know good security reasons which by the [TS]

  way I love Anna and I kind of wish that [TS]

  the Mac had more of that anyway Apple [TS]

  created the system called shared app [TS]

  group containers to try to solve the [TS]

  problem of first of all you know if you [TS]

  have multiple apps from the same [TS]

  developer can they share any information [TS]

  and then second of all if you just have [TS]

  an app with an extension how do you like [TS]

  how do it's pretty hard to make a useful [TS]

  extension that can't read or write any [TS]

  of its parent apps data the shared app [TS]

  container is basically a it's literally [TS]

  what it sounds because it's a shared [TS]

  container that apps and extensions and [TS]

  it can all read and write from you know [TS]

  separately you know foot you know [TS]

  separately from their main data space so [TS]

  they can share data I had the bright [TS]

  idea back when the when watch OS first [TS]

  came out and I had to make my watch [TS]

  extension which was overcast extension [TS]

  what what if I just move the database [TS]

  file into the shared app container and [TS]

  then the extension can read and write [TS]

  the same database as the app and I can [TS]

  copy the same model files over and have [TS]

  the extension have had a lot of code [TS]

  sharing with the main app the thing with [TS]

  with iOS is that processes can be [TS]

  randomly suspended and terminated [TS]

  without their you know consent or [TS]

  whatever as the system deems them no [TS]

  longer necessary if the users quit see [TS]

  whatever else and this is especially [TS]

  enforced on extensions if you if you [TS]

  open up say a widget like the you know [TS]

  the the today will use to be called [TS]

  today widget now and I think the rig is [TS]

  called which is now right I don't even [TS]

  remember whatever they're called in this [TS]

  iOS release so widgets have very very [TS]

  low limits because you might have a [TS]

  screen that has like [TS]

  come on like if you open up your [TS]

  whatever Notification Center is called [TS]

  now and you have the part of [TS]

  Notification Center that used to be [TS]

  called today's screen that who knows [TS]

  what that's called now anyway and so you [TS]

  have all these things that might be [TS]

  called widgets on and so each one of [TS]

  those is running a separate process and [TS]

  so they have very very aggressive limits [TS]

  on those in the context of a widget or [TS]

  actually any extension technically there [TS]

  is no such thing as a background task [TS]

  assertion in the typical sense where you [TS]

  say you know begin background tasks and [TS]

  I'll tell you when I'm done they have [TS]

  this other thing this NS press info API [TS]

  that is horrendous and really hard to [TS]

  use but basically they very aggressively [TS]

  terminate the processes of those [TS]

  extensions whenever you're done with [TS]

  them so the problem is if you have a [TS]

  shared app group container and you have [TS]

  the ability for one of these processes [TS]

  to take a lock on a file in that you [TS]

  have a problem then what do you do if [TS]

  say the widget has a lock on the [TS]

  database file which is the the single [TS]

  copy that share between the parent app [TS]

  and everything else if the widget takes [TS]

  a lock on that file and then gets [TS]

  terminated before the lock is released [TS]

  what should happen it should the lock [TS]

  not be released then the app can't run [TS]

  because it's dead locked into waiting [TS]

  for that lock to be released from the [TS]

  extension that's not that's not running [TS]

  right now or should you just kind of [TS]

  force the lock to be released well then [TS]

  you have the risk of data corruption [TS]

  because then if the widget then [TS]

  relaunches the widget thinks the file [TS]

  has been locked that whole time in the [TS]

  meantime but it actually hasn't so the [TS]

  lock is kind of meaningless and can so [TS]

  yeah you either have lots of bugs or you [TS]

  have data corruption whatever else so [TS]

  Apple realizing this would be a problem [TS]

  built in this wonderful system of of [TS]

  this springboard the special springboard [TS]

  crasher that you will get a log if your [TS]

  app if your app is terminated while it's [TS]

  holding a lock in the shared container [TS]

  you get these crazy crash logs that were [TS]

  the kind I was getting to begin with [TS]

  this was the problem I was trying to [TS]

  solve the beginning and the reason I did [TS]

  this whole background test then that was [TS]

  horrendous finally the end of this story [TS]

  I had that problem for that reason and I [TS]

  tried to solve it with this background [TS]

  task on every database query thing which [TS]

  was a terrible idea that causes other [TS]

  springboard crashes way way [TS]

  way worse crash and so instead I decided [TS]

  you know what I'm just not gonna have [TS]

  the database in the share container [TS]

  anymore I just moved I moved it back in [TS]

  the das private storage and instead of [TS]

  the widget communicating with and the [TS]

  watch tension instead of them [TS]

  communicating with the parent app by [TS]

  reading and running the database [TS]

  directly now they just have their own [TS]

  little mini api's to the parent app [TS]

  where they are communicating via [TS]

  dictionaries that are just being written [TS]

  to little files in the share container [TS]

  that are not locked or anything like [TS]

  that so I took this you know elegant but [TS]

  complex solution of heavenly database be [TS]

  shared and made a much much much simpler [TS]

  lower tech solution of just passing [TS]

  around serialized dictionaries has [TS]

  unlocked files basically and now all [TS]

  these problems are gone it is totally [TS]

  solved my crash rate has dropped to you [TS]

  know barely anything relatively speaking [TS]

  and it is finally done and my users were [TS]

  very patient during this time and I [TS]

  greatly appreciate that along with the [TS]

  guy who reported the initial bug and the [TS]

  Apple people who helped me find it [TS]

  so that is the story I think this was [TS]

  now because this was before the wEDC [TS]

  barrier in the year of Apple scheduling [TS]

  I I have very little recollection of [TS]

  mostly details so I apologize I forgot [TS]

  anything wrong I apologize for the long [TS]

  with the nature of this but Casey and [TS]

  Ron made me do it so I have a couple of [TS]

  questions about this [TS]

  how many database queries were you [TS]

  making I never really measured like what [TS]

  what exactly the threshold of being a [TS]

  problem was but III think it's in the [TS]

  order of you know it's in the magnitude [TS]

  of hundreds over a short time and then [TS]

  maybe maybe approaching thousands if you [TS]

  use the app for a while and it's doing a [TS]

  lot of you know because the app syncs [TS]

  back to the server you know every few [TS]

  minutes as you're listening every few [TS]

  seconds it's writing your progress back [TS]

  to the database that way in case it [TS]

  crashes your phone crashed or whatever [TS]

  else that you don't lose too much [TS]

  progress so every few seconds I'm [TS]

  writing to disk at least and then when [TS]

  you do when you're doing a sync there's [TS]

  a lot more queries that go on there and [TS]

  if you're if you browse a list it's [TS]

  loading all that data as you as you page [TS]

  through that list you know as you scroll [TS]

  it's loading all those table cells for [TS]

  all the episodes with loading well [TS]

  that's [TS]

  so I do a good amount of queries that [TS]

  was my question so I would like when [TS]

  you're scrolling through a list it's [TS]

  like loading them on the fly at that [TS]

  point with like the for the data source [TS]

  of whatever it's called the data [TS]

  provider for the the table view or Never [TS]

  yep and it's not it's not like pulling [TS]

  the whole list and keeping it in memory [TS]

  and then just doling it out to the to [TS]

  the GUI data source provider thingy like [TS]

  you don't just do one big giant query up [TS]

  front to get the whole playlist and then [TS]

  just keep it in memory and and chuck it [TS]

  out as a table cells ask for it well I [TS]

  do and I have some caching built into [TS]

  the database layer as well so for [TS]

  instance like you know I do load the [TS]

  whole list of episodes for a playlist [TS]

  view but then as you scroll I need to [TS]

  know like the artwork you know and that [TS]

  that comes from the podcast record not [TS]

  the episode record like that's like one [TS]

  level up and so I have I have podcasts [TS]

  cache like I have that you know in a [TS]

  nice you know instance cache and [TS]

  everything but keep in mind a lot of [TS]

  this stuff falls over if people have a [TS]

  lot of podcasts you know if basically if [TS]

  it exceeds what my app reasonably [TS]

  expects to cache or what will reasonably [TS]

  fit in memory to cache there's a lot [TS]

  more a lot more queries happening as [TS]

  this have paged in also if if things [TS]

  change for instance if I get a change [TS]

  value from the server it invalidates a [TS]

  lot of these values that are cached so I [TS]

  have to then reload those on their next [TS]

  request if if the list of playable [TS]

  content changes which I basically is [TS]

  like if an episode comes in or if an [TS]

  episode gets deleted or if some if some [TS]

  criteria of an episode changes whether [TS]

  it is a member of a playlist or not then [TS]

  that is called you know in my app I call [TS]

  that the playable content change which [TS]

  is basically like the the some part of [TS]

  what belongs in the list of episodes [TS]

  somewhere is no longer valid and when [TS]

  that happens lots of things get [TS]

  invalidated and so there's a lot going [TS]

  on I mean a podcast app is a lot more [TS]

  complex than most people would assume [TS]

  it's certainly more complex than I [TS]

  assumed when I started writing one as I [TS]

  found out and they're only getting more [TS]

  complex over time as the market matures [TS]

  and and [TS]

  and as as the the scope of these things [TS]

  the scope of people expects expands yeah [TS]

  be interesting to see you know like I [TS]

  guess you'd probably get it in there [TS]

  looking at the console.log or using [TS]

  instruments or something like the flow [TS]

  of database queries because I you know [TS]

  using overcast everything well you know [TS]

  this does some database queries but [TS]

  surely I would never guess the the size [TS]

  of the number of database queries like [TS]

  over the course of a 10 minute period [TS]

  that it would literally do thousands [TS]

  like especially just during normal use [TS]

  even accounting for the hey I'm sinking [TS]

  your play position every few seconds so [TS]

  I found that pretty surprising in this [TS]

  whole thing and also I would I would say [TS]

  that whatever that blog post was that [TS]

  you found that was like just do [TS]

  everything as a background task can't [TS]

  really blame the blog post because any [TS]

  solution like that it's like the [TS]

  underlying assumption is you're not [TS]

  doing hundreds or thousands of database [TS]

  queries like you've got a couple [TS]

  database queries and you do them and [TS]

  just put them in the background you'll [TS]

  be fine and you would have been fine [TS]

  that the number was like twenty you know [TS]

  like a couple a minute like five five [TS]

  database queries every minute but if [TS]

  it's hundreds or thousands then [TS]

  obviously that's there's it's not gonna [TS]

  work um my question other question about [TS]

  your not having the database in the [TS]

  shared container and just having the [TS]

  thing right PS to share container does [TS]

  that mean that the main overcast app has [TS]

  to like be running to notice those [TS]

  things appearing in the shared container [TS]

  and take action on them because it owns [TS]

  database now like how does that work [TS]

  it would mean that but for a variety of [TS]

  reasons it either always is running or [TS]

  becomes running so let me go through [TS]

  basically there's only two extensions [TS]

  that matter for this purpose one of them [TS]

  is the widget the other one is the watch [TS]

  app when watch OS watch it watch get one [TS]

  back with four watch OS one the [TS]

  extension for the watch was actually a [TS]

  process running on the phone and so it [TS]

  had access to the shared data container [TS]

  on the phone so it was actually [TS]

  surprisingly easy to make watch kit one [TS]

  apps because you could just share the [TS]

  show the database share all the all the [TS]

  model files and everything and then just [TS]

  have the watchkit read and write the [TS]

  database directly and it kind of took [TS]

  care of that for you watch kit two and [TS]

  forward so watch OS two and three and [TS]

  also now for move the extension to run [TS]

  on the watch itself instead of on the [TS]

  phone [TS]

  because running it on the phone made the [TS]

  actually slow basic because it had to [TS]

  send all the interface stuff over [TS]

  bluetooth and it sucked that's one of [TS]

  the reasons why watch OS one was so so [TS]

  bad for apps and why the why the newer [TS]

  watch OS has since then have been so [TS]

  much better anyway so when the extension [TS]

  execution moved to the watch that minute [TS]

  could no longer read or at the container [TS]

  anymore because the attainers on the [TS]

  phone so that you know so that it's it [TS]

  had its own container on the watch now [TS]

  but anyway it couldn't read and write [TS]

  the ada base so that eliminated the [TS]

  whole reason i had there in the first [TS]

  place [TS]

  the only reason this came up is that [TS]

  when I made overcast 3.0 I made a widget [TS]

  and that and the widget was like the [TS]

  first time I was really using or really [TS]

  taking advantage of the fact that the [TS]

  database was somewhere shared to begin [TS]

  with the watch the watch extension [TS]

  already needed to have ways to [TS]

  communicate with the app to wake it up [TS]

  if need be and everything and it and the [TS]

  watch connectivity framework allows for [TS]

  all that like there's different commands [TS]

  and stuff that you know there there are [TS]

  ways for the like it basically is [TS]

  already communicating the way that I [TS]

  said I moved everything to it was really [TS]

  only the widget that was causing the [TS]

  problems and but you know because I'd [TS]

  already made this move with the watch [TS]

  out anyway so the widget either either [TS]

  the phone app is already running in [TS]

  which case it notices anyway or [TS]

  basically I have a mechanism in the [TS]

  widget because the widget has a play [TS]

  button and and you and there and if you [TS]

  tap any they aren't working it'll it'll [TS]

  play that one also so the widget needs [TS]

  to have some way to wake up the app if [TS]

  it was just one way data transfer if the [TS]

  widget was just like showing status from [TS]

  the app like you might have if you made [TS]

  like a weather app for instance like [TS]

  there's it there there'd be no reason [TS]

  for the widget to communicate back to [TS]

  the parent app and something like that [TS]

  you know you might just have the have [TS]

  the widget launch the app but that's you [TS]

  know you can do that already in my app I [TS]

  had to have some way for the widget to [TS]

  communicate back to the app and it might [TS]

  not be running so what I did for that [TS]

  was the widget basically sends a command [TS]

  through one of these serialize plate [TS]

  let's say just it like puts a file in [TS]

  the shared a container that says hey do [TS]

  this command and if it doesn't get a [TS]

  response within some very short time I [TS]

  think it's like a half a second or [TS]

  something then I launch a URL scheme [TS]

  that launches the app in the foreground [TS]

  and you'll notice that if you use it if [TS]

  basically the app was already running [TS]

  if you [TS]

  that play button in the widget it'll [TS]

  just play it'll start again in the [TS]

  background because the Apple is still [TS]

  running so basically this is all a giant [TS]

  pile of hacks but the short version is [TS]

  the widget tries to tries to send the [TS]

  app of command and if it doesn't get a [TS]

  response it knows it isn't running so it [TS]

  launches it in the foreground my final [TS]

  question because every overcast segment [TS]

  would not be complete without some kind [TS]

  of bug report slash feature request is [TS]

  my word I'm still this is gonna be about [TS]

  offline watch playback I swear when I [TS]

  set that feature on fire no it is not I [TS]

  know about your bows with that and I did [TS]

  try it myself and I had my own bows [TS]

  because the volume is so low and I [TS]

  couldn't hear anything but you know [TS]

  about that it's getting worse [TS]

  it's getting so much worse but my [TS]

  question is about the mysterious world [TS]

  of the internal state of something on my [TS]

  phone that decides what it is that will [TS]

  start playing when my phone connects to [TS]

  bluetooth on my car so very often I will [TS]

  and I just did it today actually before [TS]

  I entered the car I unlocked my phone [TS]

  and looked and either I either I've used [TS]

  the multitasking switcher to go do it or [TS]

  I tap the overcast icon or was already [TS]

  in it but the point is overcast was the [TS]

  frontmost application right i had [TS]

  previously built into a podcast i was [TS]

  not listening now i think i DoubleTap my [TS]

  air pods and like put them away or [TS]

  whatever but overcast is the frontmost [TS]

  app so it's a sleep button I go into my [TS]

  car connects to bluetooth and instead of [TS]

  overcast continuing to play the thing I [TS]

  was just listening to music starts to [TS]

  play and I have no idea how i OS [TS]

  determines what it should start playing [TS]

  when I get into my car and it connects [TS]

  to bluetooth but maybe 15% of the time [TS]

  it starts playing music instead of [TS]

  playing [TS]

  I mean sometimes like overcast is long [TS]

  gone like it kind of makes sense like [TS]

  the last time I listened over guess was [TS]

  last night and I've since used Twitter [TS]

  and browsed the web and done all sorts [TS]

  of stuff surely overcast is not running [TS]

  anymore because I've just thrashed [TS]

  through the memory and so when I get [TS]

  into my car maybe it's gonna be like oh [TS]

  I should start playing a random playlist [TS]

  right but when overcast is the frontmost [TS]

  app and I was just listening to it and [TS]

  it starts playing music makes me realize [TS]

  I have no idea what the hell's going on [TS]

  inside there I'm assuming you have very [TS]

  little control over this as with so many [TS]

  things did seem like os-level things but [TS]

  can you [TS]

  shed some light on what the hell's going [TS]

  on there sure I mean I can tell you [TS]

  right now I have zero control over it [TS]

  but I will tell you roughly what I know [TS]

  is happening and a lot of this is is [TS]

  conjecture a lot of this is just just [TS]

  figuring it out over time with [TS]

  experience and some of this some very [TS]

  little of this has been documented [TS]

  before but not most of it so the short [TS]

  version is it tries to do whatever you [TS]

  did last but there are some exceptions [TS]

  to when this will happen so first of all [TS]

  a lot of times especially recently with [TS]

  the rise of video clips on Twitter and [TS]

  Facebook what you did last might not be [TS]

  what you think you did last or you might [TS]

  have forgotten or it might have been [TS]

  something so for example if you are you [TS]

  know if overcast is paused and you're [TS]

  looking at Twitter and you view some [TS]

  kind of embedded video clip Twitter has [TS]

  just become the most recently audio [TS]

  playing app and iOS keeps track of [TS]

  whatever the most recently audio playing [TS]

  app was for this purpose but lots of [TS]

  things to take it so anything that plays [TS]

  video anything that plays audio if you [TS]

  view a video in Safari for instance that [TS]

  becomes then the latest you know the [TS]

  last app that played audio so it could [TS]

  be lots of different things that you [TS]

  don't even realize are taking it over [TS]

  but if you like you know plug that quick [TS]

  video and then it stops it doesn't give [TS]

  the like last audio app status back to [TS]

  what it had before it just stays on [TS]

  whatever that was so much of the time in [TS]

  practice that's the problem is you [TS]

  actually did play audio through [TS]

  something else and and either [TS]

  subconsciously assumed that would go [TS]

  back to overcast after that or that it [TS]

  just that you just forgot or didn't [TS]

  realize that that's happening that makes [TS]

  sense but that's never the case with me [TS]

  because it never I've never heard of do [TS]

  a tweet and I've done I think I've done [TS]

  what you've described like played a [TS]

  video on Twitter played a video on [TS]

  YouTube but I've never heard it resume a [TS]

  YouTube video resume a tweet video [TS]

  resume anything always starts playing [TS]

  seemingly random playlists in my music [TS]

  collection and I can tell you I'm not [TS]

  listening to music on my iPhone like [TS]

  ever like I have a dedicated iPod [TS]

  connected with the USB cable in my car [TS]

  like I don't even listen to my phone [TS]

  music on my phone in my car I have a [TS]

  separate iPod for that right [TS]

  and it's amazing to me and I know it's [TS]

  doing it this is taking really a long [TS]

  time [TS]

  it's amazing to me I don't I don't know [TS]

  how it picks the playlist cuz it's not [TS]

  even like the playlist that I was last [TS]

  like if I go into a music app [TS]

  intentionally and play a song and then [TS]

  forget about it that like it just I [TS]

  don't know what it's doing is it [TS]

  honoring my shuffle but at anyway it [TS]

  always plays music and it takes forever [TS]

  for it to start playing music because [TS]

  I've never even launched the music app [TS]

  so right so there's other things at play [TS]

  here so first of all even if it [TS]

  remembers properly the last app you used [TS]

  was overcast [TS]

  if overcast has crashed in the [TS]

  background it won't resume but you know [TS]

  again I try to minimize background [TS]

  crashes there are occasional ones that [TS]

  still happened that I'm still trying to [TS]

  track down but they're very very they're [TS]

  relatively rare compared to other things [TS]

  so that probably is not doing what [TS]

  you're doing there but I can't I can't [TS]

  tell you for sure it isn't the other [TS]

  thing that so other things that are at [TS]

  play here if it tries to resume [TS]

  something like in a car sighting like [TS]

  that and the last used audio app does [TS]

  not respond in a certain amount of time [TS]

  I think iOS default to music there's [TS]

  also it this was this has been a problem [TS]

  for for cars for a while that had iPod [TS]

  support there is there these iPod [TS]

  control protocols that wrote that work [TS]

  over with USB and Bluetooth I think and [TS]

  if a car has iPod support what will [TS]

  sometimes happen is the car will [TS]

  basically invoke that instead of like [TS]

  the generic Bluetooth play thing and iOS [TS]

  devices when prompted for music support [TS]

  try to do the right thing they try to [TS]

  show their music library to the car and [TS]

  and you said that was kind of ran it so [TS]

  it used to be whenever it would ask for [TS]

  the iPod library music stuff it used to [TS]

  be that most of them would default to [TS]

  playing the first alphabetical song [TS]

  title yeah so like whatever whatever [TS]

  song you had that began with a and [TS]

  you're in your it would just play that [TS]

  every time my car does that with the [TS]

  usb-connected ipod touch it always goes [TS]

  with the here's the thing it still takes [TS]

  me like two songs to figure out what [TS]

  it's doing [TS]

  the second song sometimes I'm up to [TS]

  third so because I kind of like suits on [TS]

  psychos good [TS]

  oh and I do use random plants like uh [TS]

  conceivably could have picked the Sun [TS]

  rain but by the third song like wait a [TS]

  second these all begin with a and like [TS]

  how many years am I gonna do that I'm [TS]

  dumb and just as a note okay as this [TS]

  episode was it has been somewhat about [TS]

  I'm not perfect I make a lot of mistakes [TS]

  but as a note to people who implement [TS]

  these kind of audio systems nobody ever [TS]

  wants to play songs alphabetically by [TS]

  their titles that is never a thing [TS]

  anybody ever wants it is never the right [TS]

  idea that just never ever ever do that [TS]

  and there are so many like cars and [TS]

  things that do that sometimes it's the [TS]

  only option for certain like views or [TS]

  certain parts of the UI [TS]

  nobody wants alphabetical song playback [TS]

  ever just don't do that anyway it seems [TS]

  like in recent times [TS]

  Apple has figured out okay nobody wants [TS]

  to hear all in by stroke 9 every single [TS]

  morning when they get in their car let's [TS]

  instead play something from Apple music [TS]

  that they might like so if you subscribe [TS]

  to Apple music you often get that we're [TS]

  like your car will suddenly start [TS]

  playing just some kind of some radio [TS]

  station or something playlists off of [TS]

  your phone if it you can't figure out [TS]

  what else to do and the car is your [TS]

  question music so that's a thing too and [TS]

  that that's been I think in the last - [TS]

  iOS version I think since iOS 10 at [TS]

  least so you know there's there's lots [TS]

  of things that that your car and your [TS]

  phone can negotiate and do what you [TS]

  quickly realize is you dive into the [TS]

  stuff is that this is just an incredibly [TS]

  complex system and most of its complex [TS]

  for a reason like you know I owe s this [TS]

  whole concept of the last used [TS]

  you know music playing or audio playing [TS]

  AB that is complex in itself because of [TS]

  all the things I mentioned like videos [TS]

  and Twitter and Facebook and stuff like [TS]

  that you know embedded stuff in Safari [TS]

  YouTube videos like it's so complex to [TS]

  even just try to keep tracking in a [TS]

  reasonable way of like what was the last [TS]

  app that played media and so if the user [TS]

  says play what should I play so I don't [TS]

  have a good answer for you except it [TS]

  might be it might be one of those things [TS]

  or it might be something else almost [TS]

  most time it works 85% of the time 90% [TS]

  of time it does what I expect you to do [TS]

  but it's the times that it doesn't like [TS]

  well what was your problem this time at [TS]

  what you said about it trying to get it [TS]

  to play [TS]

  but like it's giving up after a short [TS]

  period of time [TS]

  and going to music brings true of me [TS]

  because it always seems to take longer I [TS]

  can always tell when oh I'm not gonna [TS]

  hear my podcast I'm gonna hear music [TS]

  because everything on my car takes a [TS]

  long time in terms of booth and booting [TS]

  up and everything you know and so [TS]

  they're countered in seconds I can say [TS]

  oh I know it's gonna know it's gonna [TS]

  happen next gonna play music and it does [TS]

  but almost all the time it works so [TS]

  anyway another thing I mean I guess that [TS]

  can be solved by Honda updating their [TS]

  in-car infotainment system which by the [TS]

  way they did the new Accords have an [TS]

  all-new Android based presumably non [TS]

  disgusting you know like but what do I [TS]

  have now is like pre Android iOS like [TS]

  the old world of car infotainment [TS]

  systems the bad old world and the new [TS]

  one is just you know the modern era so [TS]

  I'm hoping it's better and I'm hoping [TS]

  the professor's CPUs then and I'm hoping [TS]

  it will take less time to connect to [TS]

  bluetooth so at the very least I can get [TS]

  the wrong thing playing faster in the [TS]

  meantime just you know I mean it's [TS]

  pretty pretty high success rate all [TS]

  things considered but yeah it does sound [TS]

  complicated it almost makes me wish that [TS]

  there was a way that I could say look [TS]

  all I ever wanted to happen ever ever [TS]

  ever want to enter the car is for you to [TS]

  start playing overcast and that's it but [TS]

  that doesn't seem like something cards [TS]

  so before you get a ton of email [TS]

  hopefully you were able to back-channel [TS]

  kind of directly to Apple and say hey [TS]

  what's going on here what do you think [TS]

  would have been your course of action if [TS]

  that wasn't available to you like don't [TS]

  there would be that's what I thought so [TS]

  if you're not marklar mint and you know [TS]

  yeah that's fine for Marco but you would [TS]

  have opened a DTS ticket and [TS]

  hypothetically that would have been [TS]

  escalated to an engineer who could have [TS]

  helped you hopefully maybe yeah and the [TS]

  way these works and forgive me for not [TS]

  having the details right cuz I've [TS]

  actually never filed one but basically [TS]

  every pay Apple developer membership [TS]

  includes I believe two developer [TS]

  technical support of the DTS incidents [TS]

  per year and you basically like you know [TS]

  you you you say you want to use one and [TS]

  you can you can actually this you can [TS]

  actually get like code level support you [TS]

  can actually say like okay look here's [TS]

  this code it is not working here [TS]

  I can't figure this out can you help an [TS]

  apple internet Apple engineers will [TS]

  actually help you with that problem and [TS]

  so it's it's a pretty involved process [TS]

  that's why they're limited so it's two [TS]

  per year and and I think there's some [TS]

  provision where like if what you found [TS]

  is actually an Apple bug then I think [TS]

  they don't they don't like charge you [TS]

  your ticket for that year they don't [TS]

  accumulate so you know I would have a [TS]

  lot if they did note but yeah so there [TS]

  actually is this you know there is a way [TS]

  to do this and while I have no [TS]

  experience with it myself I've heard [TS]

  from people who have used them that [TS]

  they're incredibly helpful and so this [TS]

  is something that all developers have [TS]

  access to so that's pretty cool that's [TS]

  awesome all right we good I mean I can [TS]

  tell some more long boring stories if [TS]

  you want well we got to figure out an [TS]

  after show because I have something [TS]

  brief but I don't know if it's gonna be [TS]

  worth it oh I know what we should do [TS]

  all right thanks for our three sponsors [TS]

  this week betterment zero and fracture [TS]

  and we will see you next week now the [TS]

  show's over even though [TS]

  [Music] [TS]

  research Marco and Casey wouldn't let [TS]

  him because it was accidentally was [TS]

  accidental [TS]

  and you can find the show notes at ADP [TS]

  [Music] [TS]

  yl is s so that's Casey less and a are [TS]

  Co a RM auntie Marco Arment si are a [TS]

  Syracuse [TS]

  so John tell us about your Mongoose [TS]

  californian trying to really clear out [TS]

  the things in there yeah we have to set [TS]

  the stage we have to set the stage so [TS]

  forever and a day ago at the so the very [TS]

  top of our show notes has some sections [TS]

  and then including follow-up and then [TS]

  the topics right so the very very very [TS]

  top like the fifth line down in sitting [TS]

  in this document for maybe a year now is [TS]

  my Mongoose Californian parentheses 1984 [TS]

  parentheses in two links and this has [TS]

  been sitting there staring us at the [TS]

  face at the day in the face at the top [TS]

  of this document for probably a year [TS]

  maybe two it's been three years and now [TS]

  is the time that we were going to [TS]

  finally clear this out good call Marco I [TS]

  the thing that we really should be [TS]

  clearing out I was like early on someone [TS]

  probably Casey was trying to put [TS]

  sections in the notes we didn't have [TS]

  names for things as you know the naming [TS]

  problem with program again like it [TS]

  hadn't actually come up with with you [TS]

  know precise names for things so there's [TS]

  all sorts of like pre post show public [TS]

  post show after show pre show like we [TS]

  didn't have the names for all the [TS]

  different times that we can talk to each [TS]

  other the times when we're live when [TS]

  we're not live up blah blah blah so this [TS]

  section got anchored up here with public [TS]

  post show which now we call the after [TS]

  show and is lower in the document and so [TS]

  that's that's how old this was so I will [TS]

  be able to delete this entire section [TS]

  when we do this the problem with this [TS]

  yeah is it was the thing I was angry [TS]

  about [TS]

  I was angry about it in 2014 [TS]

  unfortunately it's hard for me to muster [TS]

  that anger again oh oh really is that so [TS]

  John [TS]

  well I demand me to it because you made [TS]

  me dig up my crash story you weren't [TS]

  angry about it that was story detect the [TS]

  anger should have subsided you've [TS]

  defeated the Beast now you can look back [TS]

  on that and that's more like you know a [TS]

  detective story if like it was this [TS]

  mystery and I solved it and it was weird [TS]

  and it's like a programming problem so I [TS]

  had you do it in the middle of it like [TS]

  your app is currently out there and [TS]

  crashing you still can't figure what it [TS]

  is and then you talked about it that [TS]

  would be different story but anyway I'll [TS]

  see what I [TS]

  do to bring myself back to 2014 this is [TS]

  a precipitated by me being on a podcast [TS]

  that will link in the show notes [TS]

  storming mortal where I talked about a [TS]

  whole bunch of things including in the [TS]

  words of a show that God helped me Casey [TS]

  must have seen and please Marco know [TS]

  that at least exists [TS]

  the best president the best Christmas [TS]

  present I ever received and ever would [TS]

  receive my 1984 Mongoose Californian BMX [TS]

  bike Casey do you know I was referencing [TS]

  no come on come on what was it maybe [TS]

  that did I get it wrong the best [TS]

  Christmas present I ever received and [TS]

  ever would receive I'm close I'm really [TS]

  close unless you're not close enough for [TS]

  us a Christmas story they only play it [TS]

  24 hours a day I really see that like [TS]

  once or twice ah what do you mean you've [TS]

  always seen it once or twice I think [TS]

  I've seen it all the way they play it [TS]

  literally 24-hour I know I never pay [TS]

  attention yeah exactly it's one of those [TS]

  things it's always on and so you never [TS]

  pay attention if you had said you'll [TS]

  shoot your eye out with that thing I [TS]

  would have known immediately always [TS]

  cares that anyway it that movie by the [TS]

  way is a really really really good movie [TS]

  ignore the fact that it's played 24 [TS]

  hours that you did not play a 24 hours [TS]

  it is a really good movie the kid in the [TS]

  movie gets BB gun for Christmas and he [TS]

  says the narrator the older version of [TS]

  it says the best Christmas present he [TS]

  ever received never would receive that's [TS]

  my that's my bike for a variety of [TS]

  reasons and the reason the reference we [TS]

  were supposed to recognize there was not [TS]

  the bike itself just the best present [TS]

  that you know you know yeah it's a lot [TS]

  of very very near the end of the movies [TS]

  like the second or third to last line in [TS]

  those weeds we didn't stand a chance [TS]

  no it's pretty significant line it's [TS]

  pretty significant sentiment anyway I [TS]

  would get that quote exactly right so I [TS]

  can repeat it with more confidence in [TS]

  the future anyway on this podcast talked [TS]

  about a whole bunch of things I also [TS]

  talked about BMX and around this time I [TS]

  was buying bicycles from my kids of [TS]

  various sizes like like non-training [TS]

  wheel bikes like their first like real [TS]

  bikes and I found that experience [TS]

  incredibly frustrating so I I grew up in [TS]

  a bike culture which is like 70s 80s [TS]

  suburban New York metro area whoo [TS]

  bike culture kids were on bicycles can [TS]

  we tell people that you're a biker [TS]

  different different thing different [TS]

  context although we did put it up [TS]

  playing cards in our spokes with the [TS]

  clothespin so your bike sound like I was [TS]

  like oh yeah that really confused [TS]

  anybody ever that's right awesome so [TS]

  kids kids were on bikes all the time [TS]

  like if you watched a Steven Spielberg [TS]

  movie showing kids in the 70s raised and [TS]

  they're riding around in bicycles if you [TS]

  watch stranger things and kids are [TS]

  riding around on bicycles that was a [TS]

  real thing that's all we did we come at [TS]

  school we get on our bikes we'd go all [TS]

  over the place nobody had helmets we [TS]

  would fashion jumps out of garbage we [TS]

  found in other people's trash on trash [TS]

  day in the middle of the street so all [TS]

  very dangerous and scary and we've never [TS]

  let our kids do it today but that's what [TS]

  we did and because we were in a bike [TS]

  culture and bikes are so important [TS]

  there's a hierarchy of what kind of bike [TS]

  you had and all the fancy rich kids had [TS]

  Mongoose or Red Line which were [TS]

  expensive bikes and I wanted a mongoose [TS]

  I think I thought red lines were more [TS]

  expensive I don't even think they were [TS]

  but that's what I thought and I wanted [TS]

  one for Christmas and I thought there's [TS]

  no way I'm gonna get along because [TS]

  they're really expensive and they were [TS]

  and my parents totally surprised me with [TS]

  it like the president you don't think [TS]

  you're ever gonna get it's not even I [TS]

  was like hopeful for looking forward it [TS]

  wasn't even didn't even enter my mind [TS]

  it's like being a kid and saying I want [TS]

  a Lamborghini Countach and you're like [TS]

  yeah but like whatever am I gonna get [TS]

  one and you wake up Christmas morning [TS]

  it's in your garage and it's yours right [TS]

  it was like that basically and I rode [TS]

  the hell out of that bicycle I rode it [TS]

  everywhere jumped it off jumps and dirt [TS]

  bikes and trails that rode up and down [TS]

  highways on this bike has no gears by [TS]

  the way it to BMX bike bike is just [TS]

  straight up you know took really good [TS]

  care of it you know cleaned and oiled it [TS]

  all it's not like all the things you can [TS]

  imagine his bike is like my prized [TS]

  possession I still have this bicycle [TS]

  it's still in my house oh my Wow in the [TS]

  attic and the basement I tried to get my [TS]

  kids to ride the bike right it's like [TS]

  the reason I saved it for my kids but [TS]

  they couldn't care less hey they didn't [TS]

  care and B they didn't like it I rode I [TS]

  rode the bike Here I am 37 years old on [TS]

  my BMX bike you know what it's still a [TS]

  really good bike you get on it and you [TS]

  can tell this is you know it's not a [TS]

  complicated thing it's the other pedals [TS]

  and a gear then a chain that connects to [TS]

  another gear and some hand brakes and [TS]

  tires and of course the tire is a member [TS]

  place over the years because you know I [TS]

  went through many tires and [TS]

  herbs over the time of owning this but [TS]

  pretty much everything else on it is [TS]

  original and to this day like how old's [TS]

  this bike is that 1984 bike it rides [TS]

  great you pedal and it feels like I [TS]

  don't know like like I'm gonna sit for [TS]

  KC like it like a BMW manual [TS]

  transmission I guess Swiss watch for [TS]

  Marco Swiss watches don't like precision [TS]

  piece of machinery there is no slippage [TS]

  there is no slop all the bearings in it [TS]

  are smooth there is a very very little [TS]

  friction the brakes are low crap because [TS]

  you know the pads and the brakes have [TS]

  been replaced many times they're kind of [TS]

  you know hard and crusty for me in the [TS]

  basement but but the pedaling [TS]

  experiences bike there are no squeaks [TS]

  and rattles 100% solid so when I'm [TS]

  looking for bikes for my kids and my [TS]

  club you know they don't whatever I just [TS]

  need any old bike right but you know me [TS]

  being the obnoxious suburban rich dad [TS]

  trying to buy things that are expensive [TS]

  first kids it's like well let me try to [TS]

  get you know I know it's just a kid's [TS]

  bike but let me get a good quality one [TS]

  because I want my kids to have a good [TS]

  quality but not just some some cruddy [TS]

  like Toys R Us made of like some weird [TS]

  terrible cheap aluminum alloy that you [TS]

  could bend with your fingers they're [TS]

  just gonna fall apart or rust or just [TS]

  you know Bend if it goes off and a [TS]

  little bump in the road I want to get a [TS]

  good bike right and maybe we'll have [TS]

  good resale value or whatever and I'm [TS]

  looking to try to find one kid sighs you [TS]

  know not an adult bike but at a kid size [TS]

  bike I'm not gonna spend thousands of [TS]

  dollars but I would spend you know a [TS]

  couple hundred bucks on or whatever that [TS]

  may be it's not gonna be as good as my [TS]

  Mongoose but just its competent that you [TS]

  know you you pedal and it feels like you [TS]

  are pushing yourself forward you don't [TS]

  feel the gears and the chain or any [TS]

  other stuff like that [TS]

  and we went through a couple of bikes [TS]

  and a couple of different ways to get [TS]

  them and a couple of different stores [TS]

  and I felt like Marco buying something [TS]

  and then returning it and buying [TS]

  something and then returning it because [TS]

  they were all just terrible I heard [TS]

  sometimes sometimes they they the [TS]

  problem was like the shipment like that [TS]

  shipment would come and the box would be [TS]

  damaged you could see that it was like [TS]

  crushed and like the gears would have [TS]

  been like jams against concrete or [TS]

  something is the little teeth on the [TS]

  gears were bent because you could tell [TS]

  with the paint which [TS]

  sometimes you'd get it and you know no [TS]

  matter how much you tried to lubricate [TS]

  things in it and get it up and running [TS]

  it always just you know the bike chain [TS]

  would bend and get a kink in it and [TS]

  never straighten out or the the chain [TS]

  would jump off and you know I know how [TS]

  to I have a lot of experience fixing and [TS]

  maintaining bikes over life or all the [TS]

  way up to ten speeds everything when I [TS]

  was old like I know what I'm doing and [TS]

  these bikes were just crap every part of [TS]

  them was crap their bearings if they had [TS]

  them at all were crap the the parts were [TS]

  not precisely manufactured they're made [TS]

  of crappy metal that I could Bend with [TS]

  my fingernails the paint jobs were [TS]

  terrible they were heavy they were ugly [TS]

  they were slow they felt terrible every [TS]

  one of them was like I you know I [TS]

  wouldn't have created a thousand of them [TS]

  for my Mongoose right and I didn't [TS]

  understand why you know what the deal is [TS]

  with bikes like is it only like super [TS]

  adult multi-thousand dollar even more [TS]

  obnoxious rich dude bikes that you have [TS]

  to get like is that the only place good [TS]

  quality components are even Mongoose [TS]

  which is brand that still exists and I [TS]

  think red lines still exist to their [TS]

  bikes are these weird monstrosity is [TS]

  that just don't seem to be the quality [TS]

  they used to and it got me into the [TS]

  SuperDuper old man you know second only [TS]

  to my literal telling children to get [TS]

  off my lawn of like they don't make [TS]

  things like they used wait do you do [TS]

  that that was one of my that's my [TS]

  favorite tweet I have ever made look at [TS]

  why the show notes so is the tweet I'm [TS]

  gonna try to recite it from memory the [TS]

  school bus stops in front of my house [TS]

  this morning I found myself literally [TS]

  telling children to get off my lawn this [TS]

  is a real thing that happened because [TS]

  the school bus stop is in front of my [TS]

  house and when school bus stopped the [TS]

  kids like oh let's just go on this lawn [TS]

  here and like play ball and like run [TS]

  around and you know stop through the [TS]

  planting beds and throw balls so they [TS]

  end up hitting our house to get off my [TS]

  lawn like seriously you think you [TS]

  wouldn't do this but just think about if [TS]

  you had a bus stop in front your house [TS]

  and every single morning fleet of [TS]

  children are there just running around [TS]

  and stomping on your downspouts and [TS]

  bending them and crushing your bushes [TS]

  and throwing balls and bouncing off [TS]

  their house and the ball is hitting your [TS]

  car in your driveway Casey you would go [TS]

  out there and you tell the kids to get [TS]

  off your lawn so I literally went out [TS]

  and told the kids to get off my lawn the [TS]

  school bus stop is [TS]

  in front of my house period I am now [TS]

  literally telling children to get off my [TS]

  lawn period January 2009 and you would [TS]

  too you know that's the oldest but the [TS]

  second oldest ever felt is I might hurt [TS]

  my grandfather says all the time and I [TS]

  mostly just ignored him and rolled his [TS]

  eyes but he would show me how they don't [TS]

  don't make them like they used to like [TS]

  they don't make him over them it was [TS]

  cars right and I contend they do not [TS]

  make bikes for kids like they used to [TS]

  that there is no bike at any price [TS]

  anywhere in the world that is of ego [TS]

  quality to my 1994 Mongoose California [TS]

  in terms of the simple machine with [TS]

  bearings and petals and wheels and [TS]

  chains that that you you know that takes [TS]

  your leg energy and turns it into [TS]

  forward momentum that stupid thing in my [TS]

  basement right now hanging from the [TS]

  ceiling is better than anything you get [TS]

  at any price and I find that depressing [TS]

  and I'm assuming it's just because I [TS]

  don't know the secret place and the [TS]

  secret brands for today's good bikes or [TS]

  maybe kids don't like bikes at all until [TS]

  they're adults and you know ride [TS]

  grown-up bikes but anyway that was [TS]

  depressing and ended up getting my kids [TS]

  a series of terrible bikes from like I [TS]

  think they had a couple from bike stores [TS]

  and a couple from Target and it's like [TS]

  it doesn't matter it doesn't matter how [TS]

  much you spend or where you get them I [TS]

  just resigned to the fact that they're [TS]

  all crap so just you know after in the [TS]

  end times instead of pushing a shopping [TS]

  cart through the ruins of civilization I [TS]

  will be the 50 year-old man riding a way [TS]

  too small for him BMX bike that is [TS]

  awesome [TS]

  John I have good news my friend you have [TS]

  successfully mustered up the appropriate [TS]

  amount of anchor I was so because like [TS]

  you know I think it's the Marco style [TS]

  anger is like something that money can't [TS]

  fix what what is wrong with the world [TS]

  I'm willing to spoil my children and buy [TS]

  them things that they should known that [TS]

  they're not going to appreciate and yet [TS]

  I can't I'm not allowed to spoil my [TS]

  children the thing I want is not [TS]

  available on Amazon no I was I was going [TS]

  to bike stores but actual bike stores we [TS]

  did actually buy a couple bikes the bike [TS]

  stores at least we got some that were [TS]

  sturdy from bike stores at tremendous [TS]

  expense on you but I'm totally willing [TS]

  to support a bike store if it's gonna [TS]

  keep a bike store business because if [TS]

  you don't go to bike store it's [TS]

  Walmart Target Toys R Us and like [TS]

  sporting goods stores [TS]

  none of which know anything about [TS]

  bicycles so if you have a local bike [TS]

  store go there and give them whatever [TS]

  they want because if it's better than [TS]

  shopping elsewhere I think you guys have [TS]

  does Adam have a scoop bike [TS]

  he has a balance bike I don't know if [TS]

  it's the same thing it's it's basically [TS]

  a bike with no pedals yeah those are [TS]

  awesome yeah he and he he has taken like [TS]

  he's had it now for over a year I think [TS]

  maybe even two years and he said he took [TS]

  to it immediately and is really into it [TS]

  it's it's almost to the point now where [TS]

  I was thinking about in a few weeks I'm [TS]

  thinking about like trying him on a like [TS]

  a real bike to see if he if he can do it [TS]

  yet I think he might be able to he's a [TS]

  hundred percent ready I've seen video of [TS]

  him doing it he is ready for a bike he [TS]

  is you know that that's a good bike he [TS]

  hasn't totally mastered it he's yeah [TS]

  when my kids never wanted to do this [TS]

  good bike of course throughout this [TS]

  group bike so that I understand the [TS]

  theory business go bike it'll be awesome [TS]

  my kids were like nope no way in hell [TS]

  I'm getting on that so they took a long [TS]

  time to learn how to ride bikes but Adam [TS]

  I'm just gonna running back tomorrow if [TS]

  you give him the bike with pedals [TS]

  don't even bother the training wheels [TS]

  he's ready yeah I didn't ride a bike [TS]

  until like middle school took me a long [TS]

  time saying cuz I was like I was really [TS]

  into scooters and just didn't really I I [TS]

  thought I would I didn't need the bike [TS]

  it didn't understand mechanical [TS]

  advantage not at all no yeah so 200 [TS]

  middle school you learned about lever [TS]

  ISM other simple machines well and [TS]

  actually I at the beach it's a it's like [TS]

  a no cars community like there's no cars [TS]

  anywhere so they only wagons yeah [TS]

  everyone bikes everywhere and and and [TS]

  there was some bikes in the basement of [TS]

  this place and so I took one out and the [TS]

  last couple times you've been there and [TS]

  and started riding it around and I [TS]

  haven't ridden a bike since my high [TS]

  school bike it which was never quite [TS]

  adult sized it was like a couple exist [TS]

  smaller than like a regular it was like [TS]

  to be fair yeah [TS]

  see what that was going yeah hoping you [TS]

  would autocomplete the joke but I had [TS]

  they had to go a little farther yeah so [TS]

  I started writing in and first of all [TS]

  riding a bike when you haven't ridden [TS]

  one in you know probably 20 years it's [TS]

  just a bike yeah the old saying I mean [TS]

  yes but not well and it's terrifying and [TS]

  also like the bike oh wait a second I've [TS]

  I took a long break riding bikes too [TS]

  like most people like you ride a bike [TS]

  when your kids and you become an adult [TS]

  and you get a license to get a car so I [TS]

  think there was a pretty big gap between [TS]

  riding bikes and my experience it was [TS]

  like riding a bike I'm no problem I'm [TS]

  like of course I know how to do this [TS]

  maybe your gap was longer than mine or [TS]

  maybe you didn't know you didn't have [TS]

  the hours the flight hours in the end [TS]

  the seat of a bike but I just rode my [TS]

  bike I like to pick up my car from the [TS]

  the body shop I got a you know scratch [TS]

  is fixed in my paint and I had to go [TS]

  pick up the car but of course he can't [TS]

  drive a car to pick up the car so a car [TS]

  and you know it was that's not the first [TS]

  time ridden a bike on the 10th but [TS]

  anyway my experience it was just like [TS]

  riding a bike and wasn't terrifying but [TS]

  maybe maybe your campus longer well it [TS]

  kind of an exasperated factor is that [TS]

  the the bike that that was in the [TS]

  basement of this house is not only very [TS]

  very old and has a lot of rust and [TS]

  failing parts like it is an 18-speed [TS]

  mountain bike I don't know what brand I [TS]

  don't think it would be a brand anybody [TS]

  would recognize it like it isn't it's [TS]

  it's cheap bike but it's also a cheap [TS]

  old bike that has been around sea air [TS]

  for a long time so there's lots of rust [TS]

  and it's to the point where like the [TS]

  gears like if you shift the the big gear [TS]

  like by the pedals if you shift that the [TS]

  the thing falls off like the the thing [TS]

  that moves the gears back and forth like [TS]

  it just falls off and you have to like [TS]

  it jams up in weird ways and you have [TS]

  like unjam it and weird kinks and you're [TS]

  chained to something like that yet but [TS]

  only if you shift the middle gear and [TS]

  then the the back gears at the smaller [TS]

  ones that are supposed to be like more [TS]

  fine-grained the the gear shifting thing [TS]

  seems to just like skip every 2 or 3 at [TS]

  a time so it is technically an 18-speed [TS]

  but i can only actually give it to [TS]

  engage maybe three distinct speeds and [TS]

  they're very far apart from each other [TS]

  I've been in one gear and I rode to get [TS]

  my car I was using you know some ancient [TS]

  like it was like a given to us by a [TS]

  friend who was gonna throw it in the [TS]

  garbage and the same same problems a [TS]

  mountain bike with a whole bunch of [TS]

  gears and in theory you have a bunch of [TS]

  them but in practice it jumps over all [TS]

  the gears and the worst part for me is [TS]

  because I have kinks in the chain [TS]

  if you try to pedal hard the chain pops [TS]

  off the teeth of Jesus and then catches [TS]

  again like seven notches later and that [TS]

  is the worst thing when you're trying to [TS]

  pedal it's like I just I mean I don't [TS]

  blame that bike I'm I know there are [TS]

  available good mountain bikes if I was [TS]

  willing to buy them I'm just a [TS]

  hand-me-down bike but brighting a bad [TS]

  bike feels gross the other problem is [TS]

  this bike is way too tall for me like [TS]

  it's first of all not comfortable if [TS]

  your tippy-toes to reach the pedals I [TS]

  have to almost jump onto it like that's [TS]

  it that's how it's written way to fall [TS]

  video this tip periscoping if not right [TS]

  you took the words right out of my mouth [TS]

  like of all this stuff that you [TS]

  periscope and the seat the seat is at [TS]

  the bottom like it can't be adjusted any [TS]

  further down than it where it is now and [TS]

  it's just it's just too big for me we [TS]

  get you to do a running start and get [TS]

  that on periscope you come do the [TS]

  running start and jump on yeah it's so [TS]

  it's it's quite terrifying if I if I [TS]

  have to slow down like to go around some [TS]

  people on the sidewalk I just have to [TS]

  just just stop and put my feet down just [TS]

  I'll just wait them to pass please like [TS]

  and put your feet down when the seats [TS]

  are really high like when I first got a [TS]

  couple of my 10 speeds or when I had [TS]

  riding my dad's 10 series I couldn't [TS]

  reach my feet couldn't reach the ground [TS]

  I have to jump off of the seat and even [TS]

  when I was on the bar like rest resting [TS]

  on my balls tilt it over so one foot [TS]

  could be on the ground yeah I mean that [TS]

  yeah I'm only putting one foot down I [TS]

  don't I don't quite have your bar issue [TS]

  but it's it's not that far off like it's [TS]

  really so yeah I I and I so actually [TS]

  this was interesting this was the second [TS]

  time I'm looking at bikes online today [TS]

  earlier today I thought you know I would [TS]

  like to get you know obviously a bike [TS]

  that that fits me for this place cuz I'm [TS]

  about to go be there for a long time for [TS]

  my big summer vacation so I would like [TS]

  to maybe get my own bike that actually [TS]

  fits me it would be less terrifying to [TS]

  write and maybe has here's the work I [TS]

  thought maybe there's like a bikes and I [TS]

  thought you know if there's one bike [TS]

  that I would really want to have okay [TS]

  John you know the decade that we grew up [TS]

  in can you guess what bike I want I do [TS]

  know the decade you grew up in but I [TS]

  didn't grow up on that decade I know [TS]

  that what the answer would be if you [TS]

  were my age but I'm assuming because [TS]

  your 90s children that you want some [TS]

  kind of grouse mountain by key thing [TS]

  with suspension Casey can you guess the [TS]

  one bike I might want from our childhood [TS]

  oh the pee-wee Herman bike yup there you [TS]

  go that's that's closer to my general oh [TS]

  my word I should have known [TS]

  I should have well that's better than a [TS]

  gross pounding I want the bike from [TS]

  pee-wee's big adventure right and it [TS]

  turns out that there there is a [TS]

  community of people who make replicas of [TS]

  these bikes but they only make them like [TS]

  for themselves as projects like they're [TS]

  they basically never go for sale [TS]

  anywhere [TS]

  there's no gears on the peewee bike you [TS]

  don't want that well but actually for [TS]

  the place that I'm staying at like [TS]

  there's no Hills and you can't go that [TS]

  fast because you're on sidewalks with [TS]

  people on them but it could be too hot [TS]

  it could be too tall geared and then [TS]

  it's like hard to go slow [TS]

  that's I guess it's your way I imagine [TS]

  there would be some way to maybe swap [TS]

  out one like the front gear or something [TS]

  to fix that in some way right of course [TS]

  but I would think you could get get me a [TS]

  pee-wee Herman replica bike because I'm [TS]

  Marco but also give it to me with like [TS]

  five speeds or something look I mean [TS]

  it's a whole custom build anyway so like [TS]

  I'm sure I give them to make ones [TS]

  actually my size and maybe give me three [TS]

  speeds maybe like it would not have [TS]

  occurred to me I'm thinking like he's [TS]

  gonna get one of those expensive like [TS]

  you know carbon-fiber racing bike that's [TS]

  you know that type of thing and like [TS]

  those are gonna cost like no Marco want [TS]

  someone to build him a bike some [TS]

  ridiculous bike from a movie yeah and [TS]

  like one of them that was actually in [TS]

  the movie like one of the actual prop [TS]

  bikes sold on eBay in 2014 for $36,000 [TS]

  yeah so yeah well I'm not gonna get that [TS]

  also I wouldn't want to ride it that was [TS]

  not gonna ride I'm gonna ride good yeah [TS]

  but and apparently like in order to [TS]

  build this bike you have to get like a [TS]

  frame from I think it's a Schwinn it's [TS]

  it's some kind of like goodbye frame [TS]

  from the 40s like the 1940s like that's [TS]

  it's like fine one of these frames and [TS]

  then get all this custom stuff like it's [TS]

  it's totally crazy so I'm all for these [TS]

  bikes as [TS]

  as if I get on them and I pedal the [TS]

  pedals I feel an efficient transfer of [TS]

  my my leg force to forward momentum I [TS]

  don't want to feel the gears or the [TS]

  chains or friction of the parts moving I [TS]

  want to feel like like my legs are [TS]

  magically attached to like forward [TS]

  momentum and I swear to you like no no [TS]

  no children's bike that I've sat on is [TS]

  like 1/8 as efficient as money and the [TS]

  fancy bike looks like the pee-wee Herman [TS]

  bike also make sure that when you pedal [TS]

  it it feels like a hundred times better [TS]

  than those crap bicycles you're trying [TS]

  to ride now you're like wow suddenly [TS]

  biking is easier because all the [TS]

  friction has been taken out of this [TS]

  mechanical system and yet the other [TS]

  thing is like if I actually want to bike [TS]

  a lot in this Beach place there are [TS]

  parts of it like I can only go so far [TS]

  I don't let someone to go on sand for [TS]

  some horse then you end up in the ocean [TS]

  of the day no no no it mean it's it's a [TS]

  long space island but there's at some [TS]

  point like there are certain parts of [TS]

  like there's just private property for [TS]

  the whole width beyond so you actually [TS]

  can't progress or then then the ticks [TS]

  get you you can't go any farther well [TS]

  you can if you're willing to drive in [TS]

  the sand for a little bit so I actually [TS]

  so they have like there are people [TS]

  around there who have those like giant [TS]

  sand Cruiser tire bikes like the ones [TS]

  that like the 5 inch tires like so I [TS]

  actually and there's a rental place [TS]

  there so I think I'm gonna I think about [TS]

  renting one while I'm there just for a [TS]

  day and just try it and see if I imagine [TS]

  I'm going to hate trying to buy krantz [TS]

  and it's probably ridiculously hard [TS]

  those yeah those tires don't make it [TS]

  that much easier [TS]

  yeah still biking on sand the other obso [TS]

  so basically I'm looking at the consider [TS]

  two options the other option is an e [TS]

  bike which is the very this is like this [TS]

  would be the high-end option so if [TS]

  you're willing to spend like 2 grand at [TS]

  least on a bike you can get one that has [TS]

  an electric motor assist and so well but [TS]

  listen I'll I'll address that in a [TS]

  second so you can get one that has an [TS]

  electric motor assist and a small [TS]

  lithium battery in it and those would be [TS]

  nice too when going on the sand to just [TS]

  assist you through the sand and you can [TS]

  get back on the pavement and turn the [TS]

  assistant so that's that's one thing [TS]

  however one thing I really hate about [TS]

  the practicality of using a bike in a [TS]

  place with this [TS]

  is that you have to lock it I locked up [TS]

  Ike sucks and bikes you always have to [TS]

  worry so much about theft because [TS]

  they're stolen so often and even if you [TS]

  get the most ridiculous locks and [TS]

  they'll just like steal all the parts or [TS]

  whatever it like it's gonna be stolen [TS]

  where you are because there is a [TS]

  physical reason why bike thieves would [TS]

  have more difficulty like in this is [TS]

  gonna be stolen by your neighbor right [TS]

  yeah it's like like was like where you [TS]

  gonna take the bike like yeah exactly [TS]

  but you haven't you have time to catch [TS]

  them there's a bottleneck you just show [TS]

  up at the ferry with some goons and be [TS]

  like eh yeah where you gonna go you [TS]

  drive it off into the ocean no I know [TS]

  where you're going but but I feel like [TS]

  there are two there are two approaches [TS]

  here that would make sense [TS]

  number one get a nice bike you know get [TS]

  like a pee-wee Herman bike or something [TS]

  that something is up that style that I [TS]

  can really be proud of get like a nice [TS]

  like a Schwinn like a nice brand and and [TS]

  give it some gears make it a really nice [TS]

  bike and that's probably gonna be about [TS]

  a thousand bucks or you go the crazy II [TS]

  buy crap but I don't think that's really [TS]

  necessary or practical or worth the cost [TS]

  esses airily none of those things have [TS]

  ever bothered you before ever true or [TS]

  just get the cheapest bike you can [TS]

  possibly find and just don't lock it [TS]

  like who cares like if you steal they'll [TS]

  still steal it they will still steal but [TS]

  if it's if it's like a $60 walmart bike [TS]

  then it's like it's a lot less of a loss [TS]

  you know you don't want to ride that [TS]

  you're gonna be spending all your muscle [TS]

  strength will be going to friction those [TS]

  things is just not an enjoyable [TS]

  experience it's terrible [TS]

  don't do it I mean you don't have to [TS]

  spend there's something in between two [TS]

  thousand dollars in sixty dollars you [TS]

  can buy $200 bike don't lock it resign [TS]

  yourself it's gonna get stolen every 1.5 [TS]

  years and just go right honestly like I [TS]

  think I would rather have that than like [TS]

  a fancy expensive bike that would worry [TS]

  about getting stolen all the time yeah [TS]

  and $2,000 by the way is look like if [TS]

  you if you were to buy like a racing [TS]

  bike like a road bike you know ten speed [TS]

  is you know dated lingo or whatever you [TS]

  can go up ten grand easy on those like [TS]

  it's it's it's not like watches but it [TS]

  is like max you can you can keep going [TS]

  and just keep going and keep going and [TS]

  it's insane and and also those like [TS]

  digits yeah yes holy Wow I mean I guess [TS]

  once you start getting to like carbon [TS]

  fiber and so if I guess they get the [TS]

  skies down there right [TS]

  and and and there's the unlike max there [TS]

  is the premium above and beyond yes this [TS]

  is made of fancy materials in [TS]

  engineering but also we know that you [TS]

  know you are you're the pro users and [TS]

  your actual racers in yeah it's it can [TS]

  get very expensive very fast yeah who [TS]

  knew it's better than a watch actually [TS]

  this this people in the chat suggested [TS]

  the Schwinn cruisers line it looks [TS]

  pretty nice yeah they're like the same [TS]

  between anything they look like pee-wee [TS]

  Herman style but they're just you know [TS]

  playing up the middle bikes couple [TS]

  hundred bucks I've never been on one but [TS]

  I assume they peddle okay available [TS]

  exclusively at wooden signature [TS]

  independent bike shops yeah oh wow 800 [TS]

  bucks I guessed too low [TS]

  yeah the high-end ones are 800 bucks the [TS]

  lower ones are more like in the four to [TS]

  five range but yeah well this thing I [TS]

  don't know at what point in this price [TS]

  range pedaling becomes just like [TS]

  grinding a bunch of metal gears truce [TS]

  and at what point does it become like [TS]

  you know sliding the bolt under a [TS]

  well-oiled rifle that's that's the bike [TS]

  you want you can borrow my Mongoose it [TS]

  might be the right size actually no I [TS]

  would not let you borrow my augers well [TS]

  you wouldn't know it was the best [TS]

  Christmas present I ever received never [TS]

  would received it is still one of my [TS]

  prized possessions so that's why I still [TS]

  have it I would not want to borrow your [TS]

  Mongoose because I'd be too afraid of [TS]

  damaging it Oh am i I did a pretty good [TS]

  job on it like this this is one of the [TS]

  this tells you how different I was at a [TS]

  child and how it took me a long time to [TS]

  become the thing that you see before you [TS]

  today at one point I wanted to make sure [TS]

  that I had fear of my bike being stolen [TS]

  because the Mongoose and red lines were [TS]

  highly coveted in the neighborhood and I [TS]

  wanted to make sure that I could [TS]

  identify my Mongoose and the way my 9 [TS]

  year old brain decided to do this was it [TS]

  was like a sticker on the front like I'm [TS]

  a little tube that connects the [TS]

  handlebars down to the front fork right [TS]

  and there's a sticker on the front I [TS]

  decided to take one of my dad's razor [TS]

  blades from like his little tool area [TS]

  and cut a big line down the middle of [TS]

  the sticker like cut like a valley and [TS]

  not even like a straight home but it's [TS]

  like this big jagged you know as if [TS]

  you've taken something and just scrape [TS]

  the front of the thing so like now I can [TS]

  always identify my bike and that's what [TS]

  I did does that sound saying to you like [TS]

  what no version of [TS]

  brain as exists today would considered [TS]

  like like I literally damaged my own [TS]

  bike to identify themself down there is [TS]

  down the basement with a big giant gash [TS]

  there and me looking at it and saying [TS]

  what were you thinking nine year old me [TS]

  Wow oh my word [TS]

  now we just need to get Casey a bike and [TS]

  we'll all be ready to go I I wanted not [TS]

  the Mongoose Californian I want to say [TS]

  was the huffy white heat which was like [TS]

  obvious crap the bottom of the was the [TS]

  bottom of the neighborhood there was [TS]

  nothing below there was no like Walmart [TS]

  brand buy huffy that was the bottom oh [TS]

  my god [TS]

  are you done just saying I don't you [TS]

  want to tell the story I'm done like now [TS]

  is the huffy what white heat I was [TS]

  looking for a picture earlier I never [TS]

  found it terribly great oh it [TS]

  auto-completed it must be a popular bike [TS]

  I don't know I I wanted it because if [TS]

  memory serves it had a pretty serious [TS]

  like marketing push and I think it had [TS]

  like the little like guards in front of [TS]

  the handlebars which I thought was super [TS]

  cool it totally did it's a mountain bike [TS]

  not a BMX bike yeah yeah [TS]

  and it was like neon green as you do in [TS]

  the late 80s early and I just wanted it [TS]

  so hard and I eventually did I get it I [TS]

  don't remember now really I'm assuming [TS]

  you stole a bike because you know how [TS]

  sure it was I mean these days huh keys [TS]

  probably like you know it's a it's a [TS]

  name-brand it's above like the whatever [TS]

  the random Walmart brands are so it [TS]

  actually probably is probably the same [TS]

  probably the same quality as Mongoose in [TS]

  redline these days but when I was a kid [TS]

  huffy was you just you know no you just [TS]

  got a huffy it was a very materialistic [TS]

  gogo eighties money equals status [TS]

  environment for the single-digit year [TS]

  old boys in suburban New York [TS]

  neighborhoods 100% huffy is a funny name [TS]

  I'm looking at this cool Schwinn bike [TS]

  the only is it's like what's I doubt I'm [TS]

  a 26-inch I'm pretty sure that's like do [TS]

  they have a bike star there near you [TS]

  there is a bike store in my town it is [TS]

  not whatever kind of dealer Schwinn says [TS]

  these are exclusively sold within it is [TS]

  not showing up on their map [TS]

  cuz you do want to what you probably fit [TS]

  oh you can fit a pie can you test lazy [TS]

  but you want to do is ride it like go to [TS]

  a bike store to buy it first of all even [TS]

  though you're gonna pay way more and [TS]

  then they'll let you ride it like try it [TS]

  out see how it feels and then you'll [TS]

  know which size and you'll be able to [TS]

  distinguish the crap bikes from the good [TS]

  ones you ride them back to back it's [TS]

  well worth it yeah and that is how I [TS]

  would do it because I especially because [TS]

  I don't know what I'm doing so I would [TS]

  want the expertise of a local shop this [TS]

  is exactly what local shops are good at [TS]

  yep should I get a mongoose californian [TS]

  from an 84 for abs first bike [TS]

  how would be amazing if you could find [TS]

  one a new condition and if he fits on [TS]

  the bike yes absolutely how old of a kid [TS]

  need to be to fit on it like I think [TS]

  he's two you think he's too small he [TS]

  would have to be much bigger than he is [TS]

  but like you know if your kid was tall [TS]

  enough for it at the time that he wanted [TS]

  his first bike yes if you could find one [TS]

  because judging by the condition mine is [TS]

  in and I don't know if they're expensive [TS]

  to get in good condition but yeah let's [TS]

  see what I have looked at but I was [TS]

  looking for pictures of other people the [TS]

  problem is a lot of them they seem to be [TS]

  modified a lot it's like trying to find [TS]

  a 1990s Honda Civic with no [TS]

  modifications in good condition is that [TS]

  basically impossible I can get just the [TS]

  fork for $400 yikes here's there's one [TS]

  on eBay for 600 oh my god these are much [TS]

  more than I expected it's a popular bike [TS]

  the ones that the plastic wheels know [TS]

  you want the ones with the wire spoke [TS]

  wheels think of those plastic wheels are [TS]

  they worth an option or aftermarket and [TS]

  just say I know that let me find you a [TS]

  picture of my actual bike as close as I [TS]

  can find yeah it looks like the the [TS]

  going rate for these is generally looks [TS]

  like it's around for 500 bucks if you [TS]

  look like eBay sold items that's [TS]

  probably close to what they're oh look [TS]

  at this every single one I find is [TS]

  modified so this picture I'm going to [TS]

  put in the chat room now it's close to [TS]

  mine it has the mine does not have the [TS]

  bent back seat my seat pull is straight [TS]

  the stock seat pulls were straight and [TS]

  also those pedals are [TS]

  but that is very very close and you can [TS]

  see the sticker I put scratching right [TS]

  in a little tube there this is very [TS]

  close to it it's also probably better [TS]

  condition than mine but it's very close [TS]

  to mine you should do a scratch [TS]

  technique with your jet-black iPhone [TS]

  yeah I always wonder what it looks like [TS]

  sometimes I forget I have a jet black [TS]

  fungus is in the case and I think about [TS]

  what it might look like I know the best [TS]

  thing about the day for Californian is [TS]

  like Power Rangers it came in colors [TS]

  black red blue almost like color but [TS]

  anyway it was you know you can see if [TS]

  you do a Google search for 1984 mongos [TS]

  California you can see the red [TS]

  California you can see the red [TS]

  and the blue ones and the black ones I [TS]

  got the black one obviously this is the [TS]

  coolest yeah I put but they were like [TS]

  the wheels on the red one or red which [TS]

  was pretty cool the wheels on the blue [TS]

  one or blue total Power Rangers vibe and [TS]

  the colors looked awesome they were they [TS]

  were like the candy colored IMAX before [TS]

  they were I think III the point I would [TS]

  like to have if I could get mint [TS]

  condition I'm trying to think if there [TS]

  was a color other than red blue and [TS]

  black but if I get mint condition [TS]

  versions of all those with all the [TS]

  original stuff like that would be [TS]

  they'll be right next to my laferrari [TS]

  and my fantasy unlimited money mansion [TS]

  if you could get a mint condition what [TS]

  now through all three of these colors oh [TS]

  of these bikes [TS]

  what is a two-speed kickback drivetrain [TS]

  what is that is that the money when you [TS]

  pedal backwards to break I don't know [TS]

  never heard that term newfangled [TS]

  technologies I was a kid thanks for [TS]

  thanks were simpler then have these [TS]

  weird there are these things to make [TS]

  changing gears some you know easier like [TS]

  you just like making a binary I click [TS]

  this little wheel and it clicks to the [TS]

  next number you've changed gears where I [TS]

  come from the generation where you pull [TS]

  lever that pulls a cord and you have to [TS]

  pull up the right amount to get the [TS]

  thing onto the gear right it was old you [TS]

  know completely analog adjustment of [TS]

  knowing just where to put it now they [TS]

  try to make it mechanical all these [TS]

  things have some sort of ratcheting my [TS]

  customers like click and it's exactly on [TS]

  the gear or it's not so the the people [TS]

  in the chat are saying what this means [TS]

  is that you pedal backwards really hard [TS]

  to shift gears what it's a two-speed [TS]

  that you just like pedal backwards to [TS]

  ship beeping so I guess it probably [TS]

  still has some kind of like you know [TS]

  handle brake here I'll place this up in [TS]

  the chat room this bike for some reason [TS]

  has a built-in cup holder and bottle [TS]

  opener seemed like a bad idea [TS]

  that's a high-performance machine right [TS]

  there holder and bottle opener yeah I [TS]

  guess the weight maybe it's a way to [TS]

  have gears and a bike that doesn't have [TS]

  a derailleur like it's yeah it probably [TS]

  just keeps the keeps like the handle bar [TS]

  area simpler like you don't have like [TS]

  the big cables running up to do the gear [TS]

  shifting and a suspension that's a [TS]

  popular thing now for old people's [TS]

  delicate butts like lots of bikes have [TS]

  suspension yeah yeah yeah you expect [TS]

  that [TS]

  well I expect that excuse me expect a [TS]

  cushion for your bum you say bum you're [TS]

  one of those people no it's like your [TS]

  precious cushion so you got to say bum [TS]

  yes you know the cool one I'm looking at [TS]

  here this big classic one this one has a [TS]

  cruiser Springer Fork does that mean [TS]

  it's like a little spring suspension in [TS]

  there what does that mean maybe I mean I [TS]

  said every almost every bike for [TS]

  grownups has some form of suspension [TS]

  because grown-ups don't like going over [TS]

  the pothole ridden infrastructure and [TS]

  are you know crumbling nation yeah and [TS]

  realizing about the shocks transferred [TS]

  directly through to you it's unpleasant [TS]

  where is it as a kid I remember being [TS]

  Baba's at all but as an adult as a much [TS]

  heavier larger adult I can tell you it [TS]

  is jarring tough those jolts come [TS]

  through this one is totally awesome if I [TS]

  can get if I can somehow try this in [TS]

  person somewhere and if it actually fits [TS]

  me I would seriously consider this [TS]

  yeah that's pretty stylin it's much that [TS]

  the other one it was much more kind of [TS]

  like black and ugly this this one looks [TS]

  awesome like and it has this is like [TS]

  total like you know 50s throwback it has [TS]

  a built in a headlight and a horn oh you [TS]

  gotta get a place to put like a basket [TS]

  so you can put like groceries and stuff [TS]

  yeah it has the big back rack thing can [TS]

  use like hang stuff off of that right [TS]

  yeah well like you get companions or [TS]

  something for the for the back on the [TS]

  sides of the wheels a little exciting [TS]

  something yeah or you can just get a big [TS]

  like crazy task to ask the Portland [TS]

  people they were all riding their bikes [TS]

  and like they have these kind like [TS]

  wheelbarrows that you put your kids in [TS]

  that you push in front of your bike and [TS]

  they didn't everything on bikes up there [TS]

  which I don't understand because this [TS]

  isn't always raining there but here or [TS]

  there and also so one of the reasons I [TS]

  don't have a bike here at home is [TS]

  because I live in a very hilly town and [TS]

  biking on hills sucks but WIMP at the [TS]

  beach it's totally flat like there's no [TS]

  hills and and because you're riding on [TS]

  sidewalks that are shared with people [TS]

  you can't go that fast anyway you're [TS]

  riding the bike on the side I guess [TS]

  there's no streets right yeah they're [TS]

  gonna go there like broad walks like [TS]

  they're big like alleys yeah there yeah [TS]

  well they're there they're basically [TS]

  like double wide sidewalks so those are [TS]

  the streets there's a lot of people [TS]

  around like during peak weekends and [TS]

  stuff so like you do have to be cautious [TS]

  people and you know as you're walking [TS]

  you hear like the bike bells behind you [TS]

  ding-ding and you gotta move over yeah [TS]

  so it's that kind of but like so I'm [TS]

  never going that fast [TS]

  I'm never going uphill that's where I [TS]

  can get a ridiculous bye feel like a big [TS]

  cruise like this and it's not really [TS]

  impractical at all with the exception of [TS]

  you know having to lock it up and not [TS]

  worry about getting stolen but the only [TS]

  thing I'm worried about with these bikes [TS]

  is because there are like 50 style bikes [TS]

  the reason they don't make bikes like [TS]

  those anymore is they're heavy like all [TS]

  that all that metal stuff for the guards [TS]

  to like go so the rain doesn't splash [TS]

  back up and you're not gonna be riding [TS]

  them in the rain like that [TS]

  everything about it that the metal cover [TS]

  for the chain and the big tube thing [TS]

  like this is a heavy bike and have your [TS]

  bike equals harder to pedal and you know [TS]

  like not good that's why all the bikes [TS]

  like to be light actually so actually [TS]

  for my purposes here I actually want [TS]

  basically I I've been enjoying biking [TS]

  there for exercise and kind of [TS]

  sightseeing but exercise is one of the [TS]

  primary goals because I do a lot of dog [TS]

  walks but you know my dog is fairly [TS]

  small and he can only take so much like [TS]

  if I want to keep going with the [TS]

  exercise for the day I can I gotta go [TS]

  out on a bike and get some more distance [TS]

  that way but for my purposes it's [TS]

  actually better if the bike is less [TS]

  efficient you were saying that you [TS]

  didn't want to ride bikes where there [TS]

  were hills you gonna make up your mind [TS]

  you want exercise you're not what [TS]

  exercise I want some exercise but not [TS]

  that much yeah exactly [TS]

  anyway I think in the grand scheme of [TS]

  things you want a bike that is efficient [TS]

  that doesn't have a lot of friction [TS]

  losses and that it is not too heavy [TS]

  because it is much more satisfying to [TS]

  ride an efficient bike for longer [TS]

  distances or faster than to ride a [TS]

  heavier bike for shorter distances I get [TS]

  the same amount of exercise work but it [TS]

  feels worse to do the heavier bike for [TS]

  shorter distances that makes sense so [TS]

  you want