Hello Internet

H.I. #85: Another Person I've Never Heard Of


  all right here we go It's Showtime in

  kind of the feedback section I think two

  things have been burning a hole in my

  inbox and crashing the service at Reddit

  oh yeah and the first of those would be

  the continuing discussion about our use

  of the term ambulance drivers for people

  who drive ambulances whether they're

  paramedics whether they're ambulance

  drivers there are two things I've now

  learned and it's not really going to

  placate anyone the first is I now have a

  better understanding as to why

  paramedics were so upset by me

  describing someone who drives an

  ambulance as an ambulance driver and

  that is I think people in like the

  medical community like certain doctors

  or surgeons or people who think they're

  too cool for school use the term

  ambulance drivers as an insult for

  paramedics hmm it's like a way of

  belittling them it's like a nickname

  they give them to upset them so it's

  like a diddly brought wind up okay

  so saying look you he come the ambulance

  drivers is what you say when that the

  paramedics walk in the room so I can see

  why that would be upsetting on the other

  hand we've had a lot of feedback from

  people all around the world talking

  about various jurisdictions in which

  there are bespoke ambulance drivers

  there is a differentiation between

  people who drive ambulances and people

  who have the qualifications to actually

  tend to people in times of medical need

  so there are actually legitimate

  ambulance drivers who are not paramedics

  so that is a thing that exists cuz we

  were speculating about that last time

  like is that a thing very much so in

  certain countries and in certain places

  in other places it's not so much but

  that definitely is a thing that is

  interesting is very interesting I didn't

  come across that because I felt like at

  least from the feedback that I saw on

  the reddit my takeaway from reading a

  bunch of that stuff was wow there's a

  lot of different degrees of what this

  means people were describing in wherever

  they worked how in terms of paramedics

  it's like there's five different levels

  of what the person is and what they're

  qualified for and so once again like

  with everything in the world I felt like

  our discussion on ambulance drivers

  stroke paramedics opens up a door to

  another infinite world

  of complexity and differentiation that

  people are involved in so I felt frankly

  overwhelmed with all of the detail and

  differentiation of what is a paramedic

  where in the world what exactly does

  their job entail and how do you become

  one of these people well if you found

  that overwhelming how did you feel about

  the feedback to the 51 star American

  flag suggestions well I mean first we

  must say that I don't know who did it

  but at one point your design suggestion

  for the 51 star flag was living on the

  Wikipedia page for future suggested

  versions of how the 51 star flag might

  look and I feel like that was barely

  Wikipedia vandalization at all I feel

  like that's a legitimate proposal for

  what could be a future 51 star flag

  design so I was very happy to see that

  make its way into the Wikipedia article

  yeah I mean that list was all about

  suggestions like from various people

  who'd suggested them my favorite thing

  there was a little caption that sort of

  described how design proposed by Brady

  Haran and executed by CGP grey like that

  sort of play to that whole image that

  I'd tried to create of me as like you

  know the grand visionary at the top and

  you is like the drone that just like

  makes the stuff I was basically the

  seamstress in this situation right

  that's that's what was occurring there

  ya know if that caption was perfect

  great work for whoever did that so I

  really enjoyed that but of course as

  soon as you start showing something like

  that to the internet everybody wanted to

  jump in with their own version of the 51

  star flag so we said we got a whole

  bunch of interesting ones that were sent

  along I tried to create a reddit thread

  to capture them all together because I

  always just loved seeing what people

  make with this kind of stuff so I'll put

  it in the show notes there's a link to a

  reddit discussion which has just a ton

  of the designs all together in one place

  let me send a few of them along to you

  right now Brady and see what you think

  these ones that have your endorsement or

  your condemnation I'm just passing along

  a few that caught my eye

  no comment of endorsements or anything

  there say the first one Gray has sent to

  me in the star section

  has 51 stars arranged into the shape of

  a star so it's like a star of stars and

  it's a little bit on the silly side oh

  you think that's silly oh you have more

  stuff to cover okay but I thought it's

  interesting to see that the 51 stars can

  be arranged in a sense symmetrical

  because it's five ways is there a word

  for five way symmetry I feel like I

  should know this fivefold symmetry that

  sounds good

  fivefold symmetry yeah I think you're

  right there I think you're right so that

  can be done it's not too bad there are a

  few other versions of people trying to

  arrange the stars in a somewhat orderly

  pattern or at least pleasing so this one

  you've sent in the star section has the

  51 stars and they kind of arranged in

  diagonal rows rather than the horizontal

  rows that we're familiar with on the

  current American flag and yeah it just

  doesn't quite look right does it no it

  doesn't quite look right those are two

  sort of somewhat serious designs yeah

  there's one that's a little bit jokey

  but I actually kind of like it so I'll

  send this next one along to you okay so

  in this one what they've done is they've

  taken sort of the top corner where the

  stars live and instead they've made it

  the whole left-hand side of the flag

  like a vertical bar going down the whole

  height of the flag and they've arranged

  the stars in there the left-hand sixth

  of the flag is a pile of stars and then

  we have stripes all emanating from that

  and do you know what it looks wrong

  obviously because I'm so used to the US

  flag but if that had been the u.s. flow

  from day one I could easily look at that

  and think oh yeah that's just how their

  flag works I can see how that kind of

  works yeah I like this one doing a

  vertical banner on the left-hand side it

  gives you enough space to arrange the 51

  in a somewhat pleasing way I think it

  looks good I think it looks good

  because I feel like the 51 stars there's

  just no good way to do it in the

  existing format and so it's like maybe

  this is time for America to think

  outside the box if the flag is going to

  change so we have a couple of other

  thinking outside the box Options here

  Brady okay what do we go he comes

  another one why do 51 stars when instead

  you could do 51 stripes

  right say having 51 straps on a flag

  results in the straps being so close

  together that it looks almost just like

  a big rectangle of pinkness yep 51 yeah

  horizontal stripes with no stars just

  stripes yeah no stars at all hmm this

  next one very different thought on how

  to arrange the 51 stars which I quite

  like say here we've got the blue section

  at the top and the 51 stars have been

  arranged to write out the number 51

  mm-hmm yeah I quite like that that's a

  good contender yeah also okay our star

  is necessary I think we have some other

  options okay someone has put the lettuce

  Li this is the Roman numeral version of

  51 stars right which i think is great of

  course we can also just talk about the

  way America prefers to view herself says

  someone has just put the number one

  hashtag in the blue area instead of

  stars at all yeah

  we're number one that's America it's we

  are we now that's let's just say with

  romera we're number one my great

  disappointment is now that you have

  declared yourself the official US flag

  seamstress of hello internet people

  shouldn't even need to design flags they

  should just write written descriptions

  to you and then you knock it up for them

  and you know quick 5-10 minutes I wish

  them the best of luck with getting

  results for that people know what's

  gonna happen they know the results I

  felt like you were at my beck and call

  in the last episode when I was having

  you do I was just like throwing ideas

  out there and you were tapping away

  churning them out you know Brady I like

  to make your dreams a reality

  so I was very happy to do that

  immediately thank you you suggest I make

  I say jump graces hi that's exactly

  right that's that's how this

  relationship works all right thank you

  bedding flag designers at that you

  certainly took over our subreddit every

  time I went to the hello Internet

  subreddit it was just like Star Spangled

  Banner everywhere yeah there are

  absolutely everywhere if you go to the

  reddit link in the show notes there are

  a whole lot more than just the ones that

  I posted to Brady while we were

  discussing it I think there's something

  like 80 different takes on the flag and

  some of them are hilarious so I highly

  recommend you go check that out and see

  alternate flag designs

  the Tim's and gray will compile a list

  of his 51 favorites I will not know that

  what that happened so Brady I am

  recently back from America

  you were there forever I thought you

  were never coming home I wasn't sure if

  I was ever coming home

  it wasn't intended to be that long I

  wonder if your your accents like

  American dup a bit more whenever I go to

  Australia people say I sound more

  Australian when I come home for the

  first few weeks do people say you sound

  more American when you come back you

  couldn't say I'm more American actually

  now I think about it do you think I

  sound super American that is not

  possible for me to sound more American

  well I don't think you sound like tinged

  by Britishness you do sound a bit tinged

  by Britishness though Brady yeah but

  when I go to Australia I recharge my

  Aussie Nostromo is that how it works

  you're running low on Oz eNOS and need

  to charge back up every once in a while

  it's not intentional it just happens

  hang out with all my Aussie friends and

  I get a bit more ocka ocka ocka is like

  a it's an Australian thing saying you

  sound Orko means you sound really Ozzy

  oh it's probably incredibly racist and

  I've just insulted a whole bunch of

  people knowing the way the internet

  works now but I'd better look it up if

  you sound augur sounds Australian I

  don't see what the problem would be

  because you're Australian and then you

  could say that okay it means a rough

  uncultivated Australian man so a bit

  more uncultivated is it's you know it's

  a bit more rough around the edges slang

  for a stereotypical Australian someone

  with a strong accent who enjoys beer

  barbecues Australian football v8 cars

  behave cards that's a long story long

  story of you and asking was trailing

  about that kind of car yeah okay don't

  stop me on Holden versus forward I'm a

  hardened man for those who wandering

  there oh okay there you go yes so I

  don't think I'm sounding more American

  having come back from America I don't

  think the night of the case I'm sounding

  just the regular way yeah but while I

  was in America hmm I saw a thing Brady

  that I've been dreading for a while

  because a little while ago there was a

  article talking about how uber is going

  to introduce the much requested much

  requested feature of tipping the drivers

  in their app

  saw this public relations thing that

  uber is finally allowing riders to do

  what they have long desired which is tip

  their drivers I have some suspicions

  about how much riders have actually

  wanted that versus how much the drivers

  want that but anyway I saw this thing I

  had hoped in my heart of hearts that

  maybe it wouldn't come to pass but sure

  enough while I was in New York for the

  first time I saw it I took an uber thing

  popped up on my screen and it said I had

  a tip for your driver with three buttons

  on the bottom and an option to add an

  even larger custom amount if you so want

  to and honestly I feel like my heart

  sank very deeply that day so great when

  I get an uber and I get out of the car I

  don't even look at my phone usually for

  a cup or two later and then I see like

  you know the opportunity to do the star

  rating and everything is that when it

  happens is that next time you look at

  your phone so the driver could be long


  when you make this decision it has for

  me shown up on the page where you would

  normally give the driver the star rating

  I'll send you a screenshots I'm the

  first driver that I had who's asking for

  the tip okay yeah but so when it bothers

  you to give them the star rating you now

  have this additional mental burden on

  that page to decide if you want to give

  them additional money on top of the

  money that you have given them for the

  commercial transaction the clear

  commercial transaction that has happened

  but you don't have to give a tip you do

  not have to give a tip it's not required

  I'm not overly worried about this as

  long as it's not like a face-to-face

  awkward situation I'm kind of like I've

  always said I'm not opposed to tipping

  it's just the awkwardness of the moment

  and not having the money or how to give

  it to them and that sort of thing mm-hmm

  I mean if I was honest about that and I

  think I was then I don't mind giving the

  tip after the fact depending on the

  level of service and how I feel about

  how it went as long as I can do it like

  in the comfort of my sofa two or three

  hours later I'm alright with that what

  are the scenarios under which you would

  tip an uber driver I can imagine if they

  say we would have a conversation and

  they gave me

  useful information you know oh hey I'm

  new to town where's a good place to eat

  and they suggested a really good

  restaurant or they gave me some local

  advice or I really enjoyed the

  conversation maybe if the car was

  exceptionally clean or maybe if they had

  a couple of little goodies in there like

  a lovely or something I could have I can

  imagine scenarios that's really cute if

  there's a lolly in the back for Brady

  you might just give you a tip yeah I've

  had Reba rides where it was something

  really memorable I once had an uber

  driver whose name he was from Ethiopia

  and his name was millionaire that was

  actually his first name and I said how

  can I take a picture of you and like you

  know social media playing around with it

  and he was a really good sport and let

  me do it so he's a guy I would happily

  have tipped you know five bucks cause he

  he was a good sport and played around so

  I can see these things happening that's

  very interesting well although I can see

  immediately from your answer that of

  course you have more scenarios under

  which you might tip the driver because

  you're interacting with the driver

  whereas I have been thinking this entire

  time like I can't even imagine why I

  would give an uber driver a tip because

  my ideal situation is I just we just get

  in the car and I never really speak to

  the driver and then I just get out yeah

  I guess with me there is far less room

  for the ability to give a tip in the

  first place well then don't give a tip

  but do they know can they penalize you

  can they look later on and see who

  tipped and then who didn't and affect

  your star rankings with that information

  I was always under the impression it

  would be pulled at the end of the day

  and they wouldn't know who didn't didn't

  tip yeah that's my understanding is that

  the drivers do not know this is the best

  way to handle it like if they're going

  to do it doing it this way like the

  drivers don't know you can just do it

  later this sort of fine for me there's

  something about it being here that I

  feel like it is sullied uber it has

  taken this like clear commercial

  transaction in my mind and has now moved

  it into the world of somewhat ambiguous

  interactions and transactions is the

  best version of this that it could

  possibly be but I'm still sad to see

  that it's there

  I'm not surprised it happened why do you

  say that well I don't know how much you

  follow the news no I do know how much

  Father's Day Parade is you don't want to

  know how much I follow the news but like

  there's been a lot of in the UK in

  particular but

  elsewhere there's been a lot of

  confrontation lately as sort of drivers

  start to not unionize but get to a point

  where they're starting to expect more

  rights and they want to be treated as

  employees and have that rights to

  holidays and things like that which

  again sort of goes against how uber has

  always pitched itself but this is the

  whole other debate that we shouldn't

  wade into and while that's been going on

  at the same time uber itself is bit of a

  wounded ball at the moment because of

  all the problems that its former boss

  had been getting himself into and the

  culture of the company so we've got a

  situation where the drivers are sort of

  on the ascendancy and starting to make

  noise and the company at the top is kind

  of in a perilous condition and weakened

  so if there was ever a time where the

  drivers we're gonna get their way and

  start clawing back things they want now

  is the time I think the question of

  whether or not bird drivers are

  employees like that feels like a perfect

  thing that we could just argue about for

  a little while it seems to me like well

  they're clearly not but that of course

  gets us straight to the whole question

  of like the app economy which is a very

  big different sort of thing

  at least that's interesting that that's

  why you feel like it's obvious that this

  is going to happen because ubers in

  trouble the drivers are collectivizing

  it sounds like in some sense sober wants

  to make them happy I guess I mean we've

  got a culture where some people are

  thinking drivers aren't being treated

  well the company is getting this

  increasing reputation for being mean


  like this is obviously a move that would

  placate that somewhat so very

  unsurprising so after I saw that driver

  I was like ah here we are like now that

  now this thing has arrived my immediate

  next ride in New York in uber when the

  screen came up to do the five star

  rating it said that this driver does not

  currently accept tips

  and you know what I thought Brady I want

  to give that man a tip I've never had

  that feeling ever like boy I really want

  to give someone a tip but when I saw

  this one guy who didn't accept tips I

  thought you were the only person maybe

  in the entire history of the service

  industry that I have felt like please I

  would love to give you a tip for your

  refusal to accept tips but of course he

  had long driven away that wasn't a


  I couldn't hand him cash in the car

  because I didn't do the star rating

  until later I was hoping you're gonna


  you flicked him a cheeky Benjie flicked

  him a cheeky Benji that's what I would

  do baby but yes that's like I wish there

  was some way that I could reward better

  the drivers who don't accept the tips

  and just tell who burr

  please don't ever show me that tip

  screen because there's not a situation

  that I'm ever gonna actually want to

  press those buttons it just makes me

  feel a little guilty now every time that

  the star rating comes up and I don't

  actually press the tip button fair


  that's what tips are social gilts will

  chop that up as a loss to gray in his

  ongoing battle to have everything in the

  world shaped to his liking it totally is

  Brady like that's you know you're saying

  that it's like a joke but I do feel like

  this is a battle that I live every day

  in many many different ways I'm not even

  mildly taking this episode of Hello

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  I've been doing a bit of traveling

  lately myself mm-hmm one of the places I

  went was the US as well I saw you at

  VidCon and lots of other people and well

  it was all good for us to catch up

  mm-hmm but one of the other things I did

  while I was there in Anaheim was I went

  to Disneyland for the first time in a

  long time I went with our very good

  friend Destin who had a great time

  together but the thing I were used for

  the first time was this so called

  Fast Pass which is the system at

  Disneyland that allows you to supposedly

  get on rides more easily more quickly

  and not spend all your day what I would

  call queueing what Americans might call

  standing in line yeah so you sent me a

  photo of you and Destin in Disney as I

  was making my way towards Anaheim and my

  first thought of course was oh my god

  you're a Disney in the height of the

  summer I can't imagine ever doing

  something like that and I sent you a

  message immediately like I hope to god

  you bought the Fast Pass or that

  whatever the heck it's called yeah there

  are additional ticketing system yeah

  because in my mind this is a thing which

  is almost like it feels anti fairness

  but my understanding of this is that

  it's an extra ticket that allows you to

  go on like an executive line that's just

  for the people who bought the Fast Pass

  and so then you can then get to the

  front of the line faster is that correct

  well you like me have that completely

  wrong it is nothing like that although I

  thought the same I thought I could use

  financial might to buy myself a golden

  ticket that would allow me to walk past

  everyone and get on the rides more

  quickly and I was willing to do that I

  was willing to sacrifice

  my hard-earned money to buy back time of

  course I was hopeful I could do that

  that's how life works isn't it we spend

  most of our life earning money so we can

  buy time correct this is not how it


  it couldn't be further from it okay I

  don't know how to explain I'm going to

  attempt to explain it I haven't really

  thought about this that the logical way

  to explain to you how it works but I

  don't know whether I should just tell

  you what it looks like on the surface or

  what I later learned how it actually is

  working probably the best thing to do is

  tell you how it actually is working I'm

  wondering because I haven't been to

  Disney in a long time I've always

  thought like if I'm going to Disney I'm

  going in the offseason and I'm gonna buy

  a Fastpass

  there is no fast pass to buy alright so

  I have this all wrong I don't even

  understand what's occurring

  okay got it you have this all wrong and

  so did I and like this tonight when we

  were buying our tickets we're like how

  do we buy a first pass mister sounded

  like idiots I now realize we did sound

  like idiots and like the people were

  saying wait till you get inside oh yeah

  like you already know there's something

  ominously wrong like they're just wait

  till you get inside so wait till you get

  inside you idiots so what happens is you

  get a ticket to go into Disneyland it is

  important you keep that ticket because

  that ticket becomes very important and

  what happens is at any given ride there

  are two queues there were two lines

  there is what I will call the slow line

  which is for people without a fast bus

  okay there's the first pass line right

  now let's pretend it's the middle of the

  day now and there are lots of people in

  the park and there are lots of lines

  everywhere what you can do is you can

  join the slow line and you'll have a

  long wait let's say an hour and a half

  to get on the ride or what you can do is

  you can scan your ticket to get a fast

  pass for that particular ride and the

  first pass can be used later on in the

  day at a specified time so I would say

  you can come back at between 3 and 4

  o'clock this afternoon and join the fast

  pass line

  that's how it works and during that time

  you can then move around the park and

  join other slow lines but you can only

  have one fast pass at a time you have to

  be really strategic and it's linked to

  your ticket so you can't like go around

  all the rides and get a fast pass for

  every single ride and have your day

  planned out for the whole day that was

  my immediate thought is you just run in

  and grab all the fast passes no no no

  you've got to be really strategic and

  what I'm not talking about here is all

  the ways you can obviously check the

  system and I'm sure people in reddit an

  email will say Oh Brady you should have

  done this and you should have done that

  and this is how you change did you not

  go to Disneyland hacking com to figure

  out your Fastpass strategy so I'm

  talking about if you follow the rules

  now this becomes really difficult later

  in the day Destin and I learned because

  there are couple arise we wanted to go

  on and they were having like you know up

  to two hours in the slow line but the

  fast pass line was like three or four

  hours in the future and you're having to

  like do all this mental mathematics

  you're thinking do I use my fasteners

  for this ride and join the slow line for

  that one which says it will be two and a

  half hours adieu I joined the slow line

  for that one and get the fast pass for

  that one but I can't use my fast pass

  for that one for two hours after that

  and that means I'm not going to be able

  to get another and like it becomes

  really really difficult and once you've

  got a first pass you're locked in you

  can't like cancel it and say oh I made

  them oh really yeah it's really

  difficult and there's no like gold and

  tickets or anything it's just like you

  know it's always good to have a fast

  pass because as Destin was always saying

  it's good for us to have a fast pass

  doing the work for us while we're

  standing in slow lines I totally get

  that yeah it feels like you have a

  virtual robot standing in line for you

  yeah and the way I believe it works

  underneath the hood is Disney allocates

  say a thousand fast passes every hour

  for every ride so as people are chalking

  up all these fast passes say you want to

  go on the roller coaster right as people

  were talking at the first passes they're

  all disappearing so all the fast passes

  between one and two are gone all the

  fast passes between two and three ago

  and all the fast passes between three

  and four are gone

  so very quickly that time that you can

  use your first pass on the

  roller-coaster is blowing right ahead

  like into the evening right if you don't

  get your first pass early you know you

  could have four or five hours into it

  you can use this fast pass and for that

  four or five hours you're going to be

  stuck in slow lines all that time you

  can only stand in slow lines so it

  becomes a real difficult decision I'm

  sure there are apps on websites that

  help you make such decisions we were

  using the Disney app all the time but

  I'm immediately feeling like you need

  some kind of app to help you plan this

  out okay I have a question I have a

  question Brady hmm do you know ahead of

  time when the Fastpass ticket is going

  to be good for or is it a surprise no

  you know ahead of time there's like

  screens and things that's all advertised

  so so it's like at the moment if you

  scan yourself for a first pass your

  first pass will be valid between three

  and four you know that beforehand got it

  got it all right now question about the

  fast pass line mm-hmm how does it work

  at the actual front of the line are they

  just pulling everybody straight off of

  the fast pass line on to the ride or are

  they mixing them in or like how does

  that work I'm not exactly sure but there

  seems to be like a blending okay of the

  lines that is heavily favored towards

  the fast passes it's not like every fast

  pass person gets on and then the slow

  people get on because that wouldn't work

  there's like a blending heavily-favored

  towards the fast passes I don't know the

  exact numbers but it felt like a fast

  pass line is about twice as fast as a

  slow line huh I don't know how

  beneficial this actually is for anybody

  who's in the park how did you feel about

  it going through the day with the Fast

  Pass this is what happened we went in

  early at the start we were getting loads

  of rides in at fast passes didn't even

  matter like we were like oh let's go on

  the Star Wars ride and it was like 9:00

  in the morning and the Fastpass said

  thing if you get a fast pass now it will

  be valid between 9:00 and 10:00 so we

  would like we didn't even need to get a

  fast bus you just walk straight in so

  for the first few hours the fast passes

  if you got a fast pass it would be valid

  in half an hour's time maybe it likely

  to be 9:30 or if you get a fast pass you

  can use it at 10:00 so we'd be like oh

  great let's grab a fast pass quickly go

  and do that ride and then come back at

  10 and do this ride so at first it

  seemed brilliant but then as more and

  more people

  into the park oh the first pass has

  started evaporating and that our slots

  were moving further and further into the

  day it got to a point later in the day

  where they were these two rides we

  wanted to go on and one of them had a

  slow line that was like two to two and a

  half hours and the other one if we got a

  fast pass we'd be able to use that fast

  pass in about four hours time so we were

  like oh God so we got the fast pass and

  then we're like okay well we can't go on

  that ride for four hours now we'll burn

  through two and a half hours in a slow

  line to get on that ride so as the day

  goes on it becomes much less useful whoo

  the thing I wondered for people who are

  wandering or why don't you just go and

  get lots of fast passes that a you can

  only get one at a time because it's

  linked to your ticket and if someone

  else gets one for you like you could say

  to someone are can you just scan your

  ticket and get me a fast pass for the

  roller coaster when you use your first

  pass it's wedded to your ticket so they

  do make sure I haven't just like got a

  fistful of fast passes that you've got

  off other people supposedly I don't know

  how well that's police but that is how

  it's supposed to work so they are trying

  to stop people scamming system okay you

  know what I'm just thinking though it's

  like okay wait a second you can't buy a

  fast pass but could you when you're

  entering the park could you tell the

  attendants that you're buying the

  tickets from like I would like to buy

  ten tickets please yeah but you know

  what they marry your tickets to your IDs

  and all sorts they're always like like

  wait I think I've found a loophole here

  nope the thing I wondered was if someone

  is like a guest of Disneyland and Disney

  I want them to you know have the

  corporate VIP experience what do those

  people get there must be some golden

  ticket and although I figure out unless

  there are secret entrances I was unaware

  of I think the golden ticket is some

  kind of pass that just gets you into any

  Fast Pass line at any time yeah I'm

  gonna bet that that's the case so you're

  still gonna be waiting half an hour to

  an hour but that must be the golden

  ticket I know for a fact that Disney has

  like a VIP system that people can try to

  approach their way through and that they

  have some special thing and I would

  assume given your description of this

  system that yeah it's like a Fast Pass

  that's available at all times that would

  be my yeah yeah and there's like lots of

  places have this at the airlines have

  special tickets they give out that will


  essentially be a ticket that will tell

  like the gate agent this person has to

  get on a plane and if you need to boot

  somebody off like you're gonna boot them

  off that's given out to super VIPs so I

  don't know like I can't articulate this

  but something about this fast pass

  system feels like a weird way in which

  people feel like they're winning

  something but I'm not actually sure they

  are not I agree with you like I said I

  think it's purely herd management it's

  just moving the cows around in a way

  that's not going to cause problems for

  Disneyland yeah that that's what's

  happening or maybe if I'm slightly more

  cynical about it it's constantly trying

  to give the guests more reasons to be

  hanging out at like the restaurants or

  places that you could pay and Disney

  like to make that an easier thing for

  people to do hmm

  so that they can feel like they're not

  wasting their time as much like they

  have the virtual robot waiting online

  for them hmm it's funny because it's

  like this conversation started out with

  my thought that there was something

  called a Fastpass that you could buy and

  gee I don't know how I feel about that

  but I feel like this system is somehow

  almost worse than just buying a VIP

  ticket I don't know is something about

  it that just feels like I don't quite

  like either because there's something

  democratic about oh we're all in an

  amusement park together and people just

  wait on lines and it's like an

  artificial environment so I don't know

  it's just it feels really weird and and

  there's something about it that I don't

  know almost adds like a layer of mental

  work on top of what you're doing like

  you have a thing to manage now while

  you're in the park as opposed to a more

  simpler task of you're just waiting on

  line or you're making a decision about

  how you want to spend your time versus

  your money I have to know though Brady

  these numbers that you're throwing out

  about being on line for an hour and a

  half or two hours are those real numbers

  or those exaggerated numbers please tell

  me there was one line for the cars ride

  that it felt like we were in that line

  for two or three hours

  I tell you what it would have driven me

  crazy except I hadn't seen Destin in

  person for about a year we were just

  like catching up so I enjoyed spending

  time with him but if it had been other

  circumstances it would have driven the

  absolutely crazy yeah I can totally

  leave that yes you have a great excuse

  to be able to spend a whole bunch of

  time with someone that you haven't

  actually seen in person for a long time

  so that mean yeah that makes it very

  fundamentally different but standing on

  line for two hours yeah do it's too much

  it's terrible the number of times I

  sounded like a grumpy old man and I said

  they just let too many people in this

  place right they're just greedy they

  would double the number of people in

  that place and they should be you think

  they're greedy yeah I think I'm just

  wondering because there'd be probably a

  pretty easy way to get half as many

  people in the park and that would be to

  double the ticket price hmm would you

  think that they're less greedy if they

  double the ticket price to get half as

  many people in or is that more greedy

  well that would be one way they could do

  it they could do it with price that

  would be a greedy way to do it or they

  could just sell this tickets no no you

  can't just sell us tickets that's

  madness no yet keep it affordable for

  like the common man they're not running

  a charity over there at Disney like that

  Mouse has got to eat Brady I don't think

  you understand well I have to say I'm

  very interested to hear how the Fast

  Pass works I think I feel like this is

  gonna be on my mind for a while you

  should go next time just go like us for

  research I don't know I keep thinking

  like there should be some kind of

  auction system here to work this out oh

  no I really thought that sounded I don't

  even mean in terms of like money I just

  mean like I know you may park credits or

  something everybody has a certain amount

  of park credits that they just get when

  they walk in if there's a ride that you

  really wanted to get to the front of

  like you could spend park credits to get

  on an additional line that would let you

  get to the front faster and then you

  could buy more Park credits from vending

  machines conveniently located around the

  park no no right now that's the terrible

  idea all of a sudden oh wait a minute no

  we've just made it a free-to-play game

  everything becomes this everything is

  gamified so great another little bit of

  travel I did and I don't want to brag

  are you sure but Mike

  this was a beautiful place I went to

  Santorini the Greek island whoa okay I

  had no idea that you did this seriously

  was one of the most beautiful places

  I've been Santorini it sounds beautiful

  it's a volcano crater that's a huge sort

  of lagoon in the middle opening out to

  the sea and it's got all these beautiful

  little white washed stone villages like

  all around the caldera of the volcano

  almost spilling down the cliffs into the

  sea it was gorgeous Wow

  mmm anyway I'll send you some pictures

  I'm looking at pictures online

  it looks like Mamma Mia that's what it

  looks like yeah I think Mamma Mia was

  filmed in here which is the town I

  stayed in oh okay well there we go so I

  won't bore you with all the things I did

  because it's pretty boring most there ii

  sat around looking at the view I did

  film a bunch of video so maybe we'll use

  that as the YouTube video for this

  particular episode of the podcast sounds

  good are you featured bravely swimming

  in any of these videos no no although I

  did swim out in the caldera but I'll

  come to that in a minute

  because that's part of what I do want to

  talk about there are two little things

  that happened I want to talk about the

  first is something I did that I've

  always been curious about and I'll ask

  if you've ever done it but I'd be

  willing to bet a considerable amount of

  Disney Land credits and that is I did

  that thing where you put your fate in

  like a tank of fish and they nibble your

  fate mm-hmm have you ever done that

  I have not done that now right actually

  I wouldn't necessarily be opposed to

  that I think you think I really I would

  find like oh I would never possibly do I

  would do that I wouldn't actually have a

  problem with that I just happen do you

  have not I've ever been in that

  situation but was it nice Brady the fish


  it was interesting right I supposedly

  they're like nibbling around dead skin

  and stuff and they've got a little bit

  of like anesthetic or something in their

  saliva then causes some sensation your

  face I don't I don't really know why it

  was good and how legit it was but we all

  did it I was there there was my wife and

  another couple and we all stuck effe in

  and the things that were interesting the

  first thing that was interesting was my

  wife was very apprehensive about and

  very stressed because

  is not a fan of like fish and sea

  creatures but yeah well I mean the sea

  is disgusting I'm with her on that one

  okay so when she put her feet in she was

  very tense and the fish sense that and

  the other three of us were having lots

  and lots of fish nibbling on our feet

  and the very few of the fish very near

  perfect and I was like saying to the

  people running the place Hey look my

  wife's not getting any fish nibbling

  what's your game and they were like is

  she really worried and stressed about

  this and um well actually she is and

  they were like yeah the fish no I don't

  know that sounds like an excuse for a

  defective fish as far as anything she's

  got a bad batch yeah exactly

  I'm sorry those are defective but the

  other thing was this little place where

  they were doing it it was really set up

  as bit of a tourist trap it was a lovely

  looking house you could see into her and

  everyone was going in to do it and

  obviously we were sucked in with the

  rest of them so lots of people were

  taking lots of pictures and making lots

  of videos and I will share one in the

  show notes and you can look at me with

  my feet in the fish tank and look at the

  video I deliberately didn't post it

  because I was saving it for the temps

  Wow so they can have the first look but

  it did make me wonder because we were

  all like you know hovering our phones

  over the tank taking these pictures so I

  said to the staff how often do people

  drop their phones in these fish tanks

  taking pictures and they just looked at

  me completely deadpan I said three or

  four a day

  three or four times a day people drop

  their phones into the fish tank taking

  pictures of fish nibbling their feet in

  this one tiny shot and the other thing I

  did ask was how often do people get in

  because like when people first put their

  feet in some people like freak out and

  start screaming and my attitude is like

  calm down they just little fish that

  seems like someone's being a bit of a

  drama llama there yeah I'm doing that

  like they just want the attention for

  screaming it's what they want well yeah

  maybe so I did say to them how many

  times a day do people pay their money

  put their feet in and say not take their

  feet out and leave or do not even put

  their feet in at all ten times a day at

  least people hand over their money and

  then won't put their feet in or take

  their feet straight out because they're

  scared of the fish but kind of related

  to phone dropping there was one other

  thing that happened and you might think

  this is like a boring brady story no

  because essentially it is a boring

  Brittany story I don't think any of your

  stories are boring really

  one other thing happened that really

  affected me oh yeah on one of the days

  we decided we would get it and we went

  on this boat trip and we hired this like

  posh catamaran that takes you out into

  the center of Santorini you watch the

  sunset and they take you out to the

  middle where the center of the volcano

  is and the water is volcanic they're

  like it's like as you swim in it like

  there are like hot patches because of

  all the springs and hotness underneath

  mm-hmm so I was like oh I want to swim

  in that so they're like okay like not

  everyone wants to swim in it but I was

  you know how does now else I wanted to

  jump in the volcano water of course so

  they were like well you bathers might

  get stained by the unusual water because

  it's very smelly and full of sulfur and

  I'm well I didn't care and they said and

  also you have to take off like any

  jewelry because that stuff might get

  affected and I'm okay whatever so I took

  my ring off and took my watch off and

  everything and then I put them in my cap

  and stuff and my sunnies and stuff and

  then jumped in the water had a swim very

  good fun and then when I got out I was

  like oh I want to do like a snapchat or

  like take a picture now you know I feel

  invincible when it comes to phone

  dropping I don't worry about having my

  phone at the edge of things too much

  because like I'm invincible I'm

  invincible so I went and grabbed my cap

  which had my phone in it and came and

  went to the very back of the boat where

  it like slopes down into the water and

  took my phone out of my cap and started

  doing a snap and suddenly I heard this

  ding ding ding and like I thought like

  the people running the boat had dropped

  like a tool like a screwdriver or like a

  it sounded like an allen key being

  dropped I wonder what that noise was by

  I ignored it and then my wife says Brady

  that was your wedding ring which I'd

  also put in my cap I'm like oh my

  goodness and like the back of the boat

  here was like you know sloped down

  deliberately so water can run off into

  the sea and stuff you know and I'm not

  and I tell you what I've never let my

  heart just sank and I looked down and

  perched the very very edge of the boat

  hanging into the sea hanging over was my

  ring it had rode to the edge of the boat

  and just stopped and it was hanging over

  the edge and like I just saw her and

  then in the corner of my eye like the

  guy who was like running the boat one of

  the boat helpers had seen it too and he

  started leaning towards it to pick it up

  and I just screamed stop don't touch it

  look I did because I didn't want anyone

  stuffing up and knocking it in yeah yeah

  exactly it's like if this is going in

  the water it's gotta be my fault you

  know I just I just tiptoed up to it cuz

  just touching it could have knocked her

  over the edge

  sinking into the water and I just gently

  reached and just got my finger in it and

  just dragged along the thing off the

  edge until it was safe and then picked

  up and put it on my finger and like I

  was like I just sat down and I said oh

  my god I can't believe that just

  happened I was like what would I have

  done like I can't believe it my wife was

  nervous we support another one I was

  like for like 10-15 minutes I just I

  just had to have a little sit-down

  she's a very practical woman now yeah

  yeah it was it was very sobering it was

  very scary oh man I think you have my

  sympathies with that one it's funny

  because when when my wife and I got

  married we intentionally took a moment

  to say to each other if you ever lose

  the wedding ring

  we're both agreeing now like it's not

  any kind of big deal exactly like you're

  like what you mean like an omen or

  something yeah it's like yeah you just

  lose a wedding ring you just lose it

  right I can yeah it's an object you can

  just lose it we'll just get another one

  it's totally fine

  and actually I am on I'm on my second

  wedding ring in the exact same style my

  wife just surprised me as a gift and got

  a second wedding ring because after

  after the fitted Rollins stuff from last

  year my regular wedding ring was

  actually a little too big on my hand and

  it was bothering me so she got me one

  slightly a size smaller so I don't have

  this feeling of like you need to hold on

  to the original item but even even I in

  that moment like I think I would react

  the exact same way that you do I think

  there's there's like an impossibility to

  not have a kind of gut reaction about

  like this thing is incredibly valuable

  and irreplaceable and it's like perched

  on the

  even if in my head I know like oh my

  wife and I we agree like we'll just get

  another one and at this point if I were

  to lose it it wouldn't even be my

  original wedding ring it's just like a

  little gut reaction that I think what I

  would find impossible not to do even

  with intentionally no no put it like not

  trying to like D sacred ties the objects

  so that you're avoiding a future

  disaster yeah like it's funny on the

  total opposite end of the spectrum my

  father-in-law has never removed his

  wedding ring after he put it on for the

  first time at his wedding Wow and I I

  feel like that is a kind of streak that

  I couldn't psychologically handle it's

  just like this streak then becomes like

  too long and too powerful and I whenever

  anything like that would ever happen in

  my life I feel like I would

  intentionally D streak or D say critize

  those kind of things like you can't turn

  this into a thing it's like it's very

  impressive that he's done that but every

  time it ever comes up in conversation I

  just start getting nervous for him right

  but it's like you're gonna have to take

  off his ring at some point I wonder if

  like in quiet moments if he ever like

  loosens and let pulls it down towards

  his fingers like oh love the void maybe

  that's the whole reason he keeps the

  street going is that it's an exciting

  thing to do every once in a while live


  oh but I'm glad I'm glad you got your

  wedding ring back and I'm glad that your

  invincibility in dropping objects is has

  stayed with you it continues like it

  continues and I know I'm jinxing myself

  here and also I did too a bit of a lie I

  am very paranoid holding my phone at the

  edge of boats and things like that and I

  am the guy who always says do i careful

  with your phone when you're under bridge

  love like I do hold it really carefully

  so I am a bit paranoid about the edge of

  boats so I was being super careful when

  I took my phone out of the cap and just

  completely forgot that I put my ring in

  there is your wedding ring in there

  because I never take my ring off either

  really like I very rarely take it off

  interesting I take my wedding ring off

  fairly regularly like when I go to the

  gym I take it off because it's

  uncomfortable when holding the bars but

  I'm always aware of trying to remember

  very consciously like it is in the gym

  locker like in your pants pong and like

  don't forget like having a mental place

  of holding it where it is and I also

  just I tend to play with it as well like

  I tend to take the ring off and just

  like move it around in my hand and then

  put it back on yeah so I feel like it's

  a small miracle that I haven't lost a

  ring at some point it's only a matter of

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  thanks to them for supporting this

  episode so gray this next one's gonna

  require a little bit of background and

  for people who follow me on twitter

  they'll probably already be quite aware

  of it and apologies for the who

  but it has been a bit of a distraction

  for me this week it shouldn't have been

  some reason I got sucked into a black

  hole I'm ashamed to have been sucked

  into and I want to tell you about it now

  yeah but you know what

  something like black holes get us all

  this stuff that you know that you

  shouldn't get sucked into but you know

  what every once in a while everyone gets

  suckered into something that they

  shouldn't so it's become a bit of a

  guilty play toy for me so let me tell

  you about it yes so first of all just by

  way of background so you're kind of in

  in the picture maybe a little bit of

  unnecessary background but it does help

  put things into context for a long time

  now there's this institution in the UK

  called the Radio Times I believe was

  started by it was certainly part of the

  BBC for a long time and I think it

  started as like a printed guide to radio

  listings so you knew what was on like a

  TV Guide for radio yeah exactly but what

  happened was it very quickly became the

  TV Guide for all of the UK as well it

  just kept the name Radio Times ok that's

  confusing yeah so forever in a day

  well back in the good old days before I

  was even in the UK I think having a copy

  of the Radio Times was pretty important

  because it was a good way to find out

  what was on TV and even to this day if

  my wife wants to know what's on TV shows

  sometimes say oh why don't you check the

  Radio Times website because obviously it

  evolved into a website now for obvious

  reasons this is not a business model

  that seems to have a strong future

  certainly printed copies even the

  website I think has limited value yeah I

  mean that the very concept of what's on

  TV now is I think a concept that is

  dying yeah the Radio Times very much

  evolved into like most of these TV

  guides also evolved into kind of like a

  magazine about news and what's happening

  in TV shows and what's happening on the

  radio so it's always got articles and

  things like that as well

  it's not just purely a function of TV

  Guide now a while ago now I'm pretty

  sure this is right if I'm wrong I'll

  take my beating later but the BBC sold

  the Radio Times they sold the brand I

  think they thought it wasn't really that

  valuable to them it still had a little

  bit of value to it so they sold it off

  so it's no longer a BBC commodity or

  asset it's just the Radio Times I'm not

  a follower of it but from the little bit

  I've looked

  this week I have the distinct impression

  it's gone a little bit trashy it's gone

  a little bit town market since the BBC

  offloaded it you can imagine in you know

  the fight to survive maybe there they're

  going a bit down market

  just my opinion apologies if I'm wrong

  so that's what the Radio Times is

  they've got this website a little bit

  trashy populist might be a nicer way to

  put it yeah it looks like they just have

  a bunch of news about celebrities like

  I'm just clicking around and it's like

  celebrity TV news stuff yeah so again a

  lot of this I have found out in

  retrospect but last year they had on

  their website they did some kind of

  popularity contest

  with different categories like who's

  your favorite actor who's your favorite

  TV star who's your favorite radio

  presenter and they did all this public

  online voting mm-hmm and I don't think

  you win anything in particular you're

  just like I think they call it like

  their champion their radio times

  champion or whatever and apparently it

  was quite popular last year so they've

  done it again this year and early in

  this year's contest it was brought to my

  attention and this is where the story

  starts for me and unbeknownst to you

  also starts for you because one of the

  categories they created this year

  instead of just having radio stars they

  seem to have radio and podcast mm-hmm

  they created some audio section it's not

  entirely clear what you're voting on or

  how one becomes the champion whether you

  are like you know I don't know if it's

  if you're good at your job or just

  popular or have a nice voice or whatever

  it is that doesn't seem to be specified

  it's just like a trashy contest online

  to drive lots of people to their website

  with pages with ads on it and get lots

  of clicks

  it's like clickbait isn't it and they're

  taking advantage of people's popularity

  these things happen now for reasons

  again unbeknownst to me how this

  happened you and I were lumped into this

  contest no it's not exactly clear to me

  how one becomes the champion I'm not

  sure if it was like for the person who

  like has the best voice or is the most

  entertaining or it's just a raw

  popularity contest which i think is what

  a kind of

  today well it says here that the radio

  and podcast champion is about who's got

  the velvet voice to claim the title well

  but it's actually just a popularity

  contest I did read that a velvet voice

  line and that did make me think Grey's

  demand but anyway let's talk about what

  happened obviously this is just like a

  clickbait click farm that we're all

  getting suckered into this is a machine

  to generate page views as well yes yes

  so all of this has happened unbeknownst

  to me it was drawn to my attention by a

  benign tweet where someone pointed it

  out that I clicked on and I landed on

  the page near the star of this

  competition now the way the competition

  is structured is the same in all the

  different categories but I'll just talk

  about the radio podcast category and

  what they seem to have done is created

  this huge list of audio personalities

  for lack of a better term because it's

  radio and podcast people all lumped

  together mm-hmm

  and I'm assuming it's very UK skewed

  mm-hmm because there's lots of British

  radio presenters in there lots of famous

  names from over the years and things

  like that and you and I obviously was in

  this list I don't know how on earth has

  happened but it happened well I mean I

  guess we're a UK podcast yeah but I

  don't know how the people at Radio Times

  knew about us and stuff like I would

  have thought we were a little bit

  obscure for them anyway we're there I do

  not think we would be a little bit

  obscure for the bit continue on all

  right so what happens is all of these

  people this massive list was broken into

  four groups Group a group B C and D like

  a World Cup or a sporting competition

  and apparently this division was done

  randomly you and I ended up in the same

  group we were in Group D well it was

  drawn to my attention myself and this

  other chap called Greg James who I've

  learned is like a very famous Radio One

  presenter in the UK BBC Radio 1 very

  popular with the young people he's like

  he's a big deal so him and I were like

  near the top and you were like 3rd or

  4th or something but obviously there had

  not been many votes at this point

  because one or two votes here and there

  were dramatically changing the

  percentages of who got what right right


  when I drew people was attention to this

  things changed rapidly and you

  absolutely skyrocketed to the top of the

  group D at one point you were like

  garnering 70% of the vote and myself in

  this chap called Greg James was sort of

  slugging it out for second place we were

  quite close I was encouraging people to

  actually vote for you because this is

  obviously a nonsense thing and sort of

  the the public recognition and like you

  winning a public vote like this would be

  so awkward that it would tickle me no

  end and be quite funny so I was quite

  happy to see you streaking away but yeah

  no I know I know exactly what you're up

  to here right like you're trying to put

  me in a difficult position if I were to

  win this thing I know I know what you're

  doing you're not doing me any favors

  yeah so anyway I thought this was very

  funny and you were running away in

  winning Group D and it got to the point

  where so many teams were involved and

  there was all this red a coordination

  going that I was even trying to

  manipulate the percentages and I was

  sort of saying let's try and get gray

  onto exactly you know two-thirds of the

  vote and things like that and for a

  while that was working but then you sort

  of came back a little bit but you ended

  up with over fifty percent of the vote

  in group day big big winner and I

  indulged this Greg James guy for second

  place no doubt because all the Tim's

  were playing around and this vote is the

  worst structured voting system in the

  history of voting because you can just

  vote multiple times you could just sit

  there and click some people are saying

  you can't vote twice in a minute on

  their browsers but other people they're

  just voting over and over again so the

  whole thing's a debacle yeah yeah

  there's no way that's true I have voted

  immediately after it's a debacle so

  anyway you won and I thought that was

  good and I actually hadn't really looked

  into what happened next and I assumed

  you would go off and then now compete

  with the winners of Group A B and C but

  we are nowhere near that stage yet

  because what it turns out what they then

  did to keep this clique farm running


  was the top eight people in each group

  then have this kind of head-to-head

  knockout contest so you're paired up

  with people now and there are these

  head-to-head battles so you were paired

  up with a woman called Jenny Murray

  who's the present

  of the woman's hour on BBC radio and

  that vote went along and you won that

  vote congratulations so you got to go

  through to the next stage I was paired

  up with someone very interesting I was

  paired up with a radio presenter called

  Chris Evans okay that's the name I know

  I know the name Chris Evans I don't know

  why but I know that name our American

  friends would know him because he

  presented top gear for a year just

  recently when the big top gear up he he

  was the guy that was brought in to try

  and save the show he's very very famous

  in the UK less famous elsewhere and

  funnily enough on that exact same day

  that I was paired up with him the BBC

  the big news story of the day in the UK

  was the BBC had been forced to release

  the salaries of all of their celebrities

  that earned over a hundred and fifty

  thousand pounds a year and Chris Evans

  came top of the list here and like

  something over 2 million pounds a year

  from the BBC so he was really really

  heavily in the news that day mm-hmm it

  was a big deal can you believe Chris

  Evans gets 2 million pounds of public

  money and all this sort of stuff and

  then the BBC were defending at saying

  look he hosts the most popular radio

  show on Europe's most popular radio

  station of course he's worth all this

  money and on the same day I was in this

  popularity contest with Chris Evans so

  this really amused me and most of my

  friends have no interest or don't even

  know about hello Internet so for me to

  be able to go on Facebook and say to my

  friend say look I'm in a popularity

  contest with Chris Evans who everyone

  knows that was like quite funny my

  friends were quite amused by that and lo

  and behold again thanks to the Tim's and

  probably thanks to the fact recipients

  was keeping a low media profile that day

  and was unlikely to tweet and ask all

  his fans to vote for him I don't see why

  but let's ignore that I won the vote

  like I I smashed Chris Evans so this was

  very amusing to me I think this allows

  you to officially put on your CV Brady

  Haran more popular than Chris F yes

  anyway so this was really funny and for

  me this was like my Wimbledon like Timmy

  I was like the journeyman tennis player

  in the early rounds of Wimbledon tennis

  tournament playing a high seed and

  winning and even though I don't win the

  tournament I was like a giant killer and

  I'd had my moment so anyway we went

  through to the next round

  I was paired up next time with my

  nemesis Greg James again this red here

  one presenter who I advised for second

  place with the first time around

  and I was like joking around on Twitter

  like saying I look at my nemesis but I

  didn't actually know that much about him

  to be honest like I knew he was like

  very popular

  very popular

  hello and that so I went to his

  Wikipedia page just to learn more about

  him and the Tim's had already beaten me

  there and in the part of Wikipedia page

  where it was like you write about that

  personal information it said his arch

  nemesis is Brady Haran the YouTube video

  creator and podcast he was officially

  vs. no I'm just like man I'm just

  laughing because it's like there's this

  virus there's like these minor pages of

  Wikipedia yeah I have seen editors that

  specifically reference like hello

  Internet vandalism reverted know what

  people are up to and again I would never

  encourage these hilarious edits on minor

  pages like it's not something that you

  should do with the Wikipedia but it's

  just like it just really I love the idea

  that this random person is enlisted as

  your heart anyway that was me and you

  were put up against this guy called

  Steve Allen who I have to admit again I

  wasn't familiar with but I learned is a

  very popular London talk show host and

  has been around for years and years and

  has won awards and you know good on him

  very big name in radio apparently okay

  I'll take your word for it

  hmm so you are winning against him and I

  was holding my own against Greg James

  and like the teams were getting involved

  and I saw coordination on reddit which

  led to the coining of two new terms both

  of which I quite like

  one is Tim work whom Tim's work together

  to make cently happen I like that that's

  great yeah and the other one was Tim


  also a good one

  those are great words that's fantastic

  so there was a lot of Tim work and Tim

  foolery going around and I believe

  scripts and algorithms were being

  written to try and ballot stuff and help

  us out I mean hey the website says vote

  early vote often like forty one yeah so

  anyway I went on to win my vote against

  my nemesis Greg James and that was

  setting up the much-anticipated and

  talked about final in Group D against

  you and everyone was so curious about

  what would happen when you and I were

  placed head-to-head and I already had

  all my jokes and gags and things I was

  going to do ready it was going to be so

  much fun

  but Steve Allen supporters they got

  together on Facebook and elsewhere and

  they put in a really concerted effort

  and obviously you were oblivious to all

  this so you weren't trying to manipulate

  the process anyway well no I knew this

  thing was happening because you I'd seen

  it the day before get started but it was

  one of these things I quickly realized

  the last thing in the world that I want

  is to win this poll right so that's why

  I was like I'm gonna shut the hell up on

  Twitter like that's my strategy like I

  would I decided to close my mouth about

  this yeah well there were rumors

  abounded that you so didn't want to win

  that you were actually writing scripts

  and you were manipulating the vote in

  favor of Steve Allen I cannot comment on

  that well whatever the reason well Steve

  Allen came back and he won so that was

  the end of you I'm afraid you were

  knocked out yes thank you Steve Allen so

  to win Group D and this is going on at

  the moment I should point out for people

  listening so you're not going to get

  resolution in this podcast this is

  occurring live we're live podcasting

  about this so to win Group D it was me

  versus Steve Allen and like I have to

  say I didn't care about winning I didn't

  want to win I wanted you to win I wasn't

  competitive about it I wasn't too

  bothered I'd had my fun I had my moment

  with Chris Evans who was the only person

  in the list who was really really famous

  to me yeah and I'd beaten him so I felt

  like I'd had my fun and I had my moment

  and whatever happens happens

  yeah and I was keeping an eye on it from

  time to time because people were

  tweeting me and early on I was like a

  head and then Steve Allen was pegging me

  back and it was pretty much 50/50 and he

  seems to have these surges later that's

  what happened against you he had this

  late surge so I thought okay well he's

  gonna win he's obviously a big famous

  award-winning radio presenter and good

  luck to him but then someone pointed out

  to me a tweet that he had written and it

  kind of riled me up a little bit yeah so

  I came across this as well and I

  understand what you're sort of

  hesitating to say here because in like

  in this story I am totally with you it's

  like oh this has been like a funny thing

  but then Steve Allen tweets

  I'm through to the quarterfinals so we

  need to vote again on the

  Radio Times website it's another person

  I've never heard of please vote another

  person I've never heard of yet so this

  is referring to the both of us yeah as

  like it's somebody I've never heard of

  vote for me against this nobody that's

  what it sounds like it's kind of feels a

  bit that way doesn't know we're a couple

  of nobodies and go and vote for me a bit

  sort this out

  it totally does like always with tweets

  you know it's like you can't people are

  terrible at reading the thing the way

  someone means for it to be read yeah but

  when I came across this because now I'm

  in the position of I have nothing to

  worry about and it's you versus Steve

  Allen now in my mind this thing is

  totally switched because I feel like

  Steve Allen well guess what Steve Allen

  I don't know who the hell you are right

  but you you are not treating Brady with

  the respect he deserves and Dave and I

  want to see you crushed like I don't

  want to see Brady just win like I want

  to see you a crowned into the goddamn

  dust by a podcast with many many

  hundreds of thousands of followers right

  it's like somebody you've never heard of

  and what like you can't bother to type

  it into Google for two seconds to look

  up who dr. Brady Haran is like you can't

  figure this out you can't even look at

  this guy on Twitter who has way more

  Twitter followers than you like there's

  something about it which whether he

  intended or not like just comes off as

  incredibly dismissive and it's like it's

  because he's against you I feel really

  emotionally invested your victory over

  Steve Allen like I really do this guy

  I've never heard of but like I would

  never go on the internet and be like Oh

  Brady's got a beat some Rando I've never

  heard of just go vote right and in it

  like in a very

  assumptive way like something about it

  just drives me crazy and so like

  whatever you're gonna say I feel like I

  feel it ten times more than you do

  oh that's nice I tell you what gray he's

  heard of us now yeah I hope so

  so I don't know what's gonna happen I

  don't know whether Steve Allen is going

  to defeat the both of us well here's the

  thing I don't know what's going to

  happen I can simply say at this very

  moment I have just checked the results

  and so far we have managed to push you

  into an 81 percent victory over 19

  percent for Steve Allen so so far we're

  doing pretty well I don't know when this

  round finishes but he's got quite a lead

  to overcome at this point and I'm I'm

  still going to be promoting this on

  Twitter like I want to see that

  disparity get as high as it can get

  I'm kinda hoping he gets a bit sour

  grapes about if it happens that way but

  I don't know what's gonna happen but I

  don't know when it ends it ends in a

  couple of days actually so it's gonna be

  a long battle this one but you know what

  couple of days it gives us plenty of

  time to push that up even higher yeah

  like keep going and keep cut but like

  okay so I feel like I sort of jumped in

  over you here because of the intensity

  of my emotion over this pointless and

  poorly rigged popularity contests that

  is a fartist that is entirely to

  generate money for a lowbrow TV Guide

  right the whole thing is just comical

  but like what is life if we don't get

  ridiculously upset over things that

  don't matter right no fun at all that's

  what it is but so I feel like I jumped

  in on this how do you feel Brady how

  does that tweet make you feel do you

  know what not really riled but there are

  you know among my many vices two of them

  are people treating new media with

  disrespect like old media like TV and

  radio people treating online video and

  podcasts disrespectful yeah like it's

  the second-class citizen I feel like

  he's done that a little bit and the

  other problem I have is like I do get a

  bit competitive about games this is why

  I don't play games like those read on

  that because I'm a little bit

  competitive I'd managed to completely

  Park that I was like I don't care I

  still don't care about like what happens

  when it goes to group a and B and D you

  know those people

  there's some big famous people in there

  and I I hope they win like I don't care

  about winning but this one now

  like I've kind of got a little bit

  about and I'm like ah you know what now

  I do kind of want to win this one yeah

  I'm with you on that entirely yeah yeah

  and like if the other people in the

  other groups I'm sure they don't even

  care about this and I'm sure they're not

  kind of like tweek you know I'll look

  I'm against some nobody

  I don't even know what's happening and

  that's fine and you know they deserve to

  win because they're big famous popular

  people and this is just a popularity

  contest but this guy riled me a bit and

  so it has brought out a little bit of my

  competitive streak so I was saying to

  people come on you know help me out so

  when a big protective uncle gray weighed

  in and said let's crush this going to

  the grave I did feel like thanks man one

  of my favorite things I saw today a

  friend of ours Logan from who works for

  Ted ed and call me Ishmael

  of course he saw what was going on and

  he sent out a small message to some of

  his friends on slack and not only do I

  like that he was helping me out I also

  loved how he described the competition

  he wrote our pal Brady Haran from purely

  videos in hello internet etc has

  advanced to round four of the radio

  turns radio and quad cast Championships

  and then he wrote the contest is

  basically the Grammy Awards meets human

  of the year makes Twitter polls but

  bigger cast your vote here so I don't

  know what's gonna happen I don't know

  what's gonna happen but like I kind of

  wouldn't mind flying the flag for group

  D now just because of this but we'll see

  it's gonna be a long day and a half if

  we're gonna do it but I think we're

  gonna win but it's totally right that

  this does this does touch on this weird

  I don't even know how to put it but

  there is like this weird still dismissal

  stroke antagonism between old media like

  toward new media and particularly in the

  personalities and I don't know I feel

  like there's something that has really

  shifted here because I remember you and

  I a few years ago we used to have

  conversations about internet fame versus

  what I used to call real fame I was like

  oh there's real famous people and

  there's internet famous people yeah and

  while I do think that there are still

  important differences between those two

  levels and in terms of things like pure

  name wreck

  mission for example yeah I feel like

  with the with the changes that have

  happened over the past few years I feel

  like something has switched and now the

  now like internet fame feels more like

  the real Fame and old media or like

  movie or TV people they're famous in a

  way that is more widely recognizable but

  just somehow feels less real to me than

  internet fame I simply mean this in the

  way like when I think of the creators

  that I follow the people who are famous

  to me because I follow the work that

  they do

  yeah when I say it's more real I have

  this feeling like I have some better

  sense of who those people are and

  there's something that just feels very

  produced and artificial about old media

  creations and of course sometimes that's

  what you want like you want a movie to

  be an artificially created thing but I

  just I feel like there's something that

  has switched in my mind about these two

  things and I would never I would never

  use that phrase any more like real Fame

  to describe someone who is in movies

  it's just like internet fame now feels

  more real or it may be it's like it's

  more close is a better word to describe

  it I don't know it's just but it's like

  partly because I feel like the switch

  has happened in my mind I feel more

  riled when I see old media people be

  like casually dismissive of a thing and

  especially even like the incredibly

  broad audience of YouTube channels and

  podcasts it's it's like on the Internet

  you don't know who you're necessarily

  messing with when it's at like another

  internet creator because it's sometimes

  harder to find out like what our viewer

  listenership numbers so yeah it's just

  it just bothered me it really did bother

  me that tweeted riled me up well I've

  appreciated your support because I have

  no delusion that you that big popper

  weighing into the Twitter debate has

  certainly upped the ante someone I have

  to say though I don't entirely agree

  with what you said about the internet

  fame and I I don't think I'm completely

  on board with you like tell me what you

  mean well certainly going to this most

  recent VidCon because this was the first

  time I've been to VidCon since epoch

  oh god of course I feel my monster that

  it is yes I keep forgetting that this

  was your first VidCon yeah okay I went

  to like the second one when it was a bit

  more low-key but this was my first one

  where it was like yeah and certainly

  saying that like hysteria around teenage

  boy is being chased latter the Beatles

  was eye-opening for me and all this and

  all the screaming and stuff was

  something to behold yes don't think the

  world is a good way to put it yeah but I

  still feel like internet fame internet

  notoriety or whatever you want to call

  it is a step down like it is lower and

  it's fragmented across so many people

  now so it's diluted basically it's like

  more dilute Fame but what I think is

  happening is like you know the old radio

  presenters I think this is more like a

  backlash to because certainly the last

  six months or so podcasts have like

  exploded like it's just become massive

  now and radio people must be seeing this

  like they must be starting to think I

  hang on this is our Netflix this is our

  YouTube this is the thing that's gonna

  come and start hitting us hard exactly

  yeah so I imagine there's like a lot of

  hostility towards podcasts and I don't

  think like podcasters are going to

  become the new radio DJs because there's

  too many of us like there's too many of

  us to keep in your head like you're not

  going to become the old radio stars of

  the past but what's going to happen is

  the radio stars are just gonna like fade

  away you know the podcasts are gonna

  kill the radio star and people like this

  so you know I'm gonna sort of fade away

  and the recognition and the attention of

  people who consume audio is going to be

  just spread much much thinner I still

  don't think of you know people like you

  and I as like famous people we're just

  like you know people that are sharing a

  portion of this new way that people can

  give their attention there's many things

  in there but I couldn't help but look up

  what radio program Steve Allen hosts

  yeah and find what the listenership

  numbers are right and hello Internet has

  more listeners than his radio program

  does right it's just like it's an

  interesting thing just to see this

  immediate comparison and it's like yeah

  I agree with you that podcasts

  dilute radio the thing that's happening

  here is is like a lot of radio stuff has

  to be broader because you're trying to

  broadcast it to everybody in a country

  mmm like hello internet is not a podcast

  that I feel like oh is this podcast for

  everyone in the world like what but

  hello Internet make a great national

  broadcast like of course it wouldn't

  right it's not a thing that you would

  put on a national radio and be like hey

  guess what for an hour and a half we're

  gonna have these two guys talking about

  a trip to Greece and fish eating your

  feets right this is like it's just it's

  not something that you're going to do

  yeah but for the people who like it they

  really like it and I know like I feel

  that way about all the podcast and I

  listen to like I listen to all sorts of

  podcast none of which would make any

  kind of sense as a national broadcast

  but for the people who like those shows

  like they like them much more than they

  like something that's produced for

  everyone so I see that narrower content

  is almost always going to win out over

  something that is produced for a general

  audience and the thing that has just

  happened is I feel like podcasting has

  really gotten over some kind of hump

  where now it's easy enough for regular

  people to subscribe and listen to

  podcasts and so there's a big influx of

  audience who are finding the things that

  they really like that really suit their

  personality and their tastes and their

  sense of humor and is like yeah if I was

  working in radio of course I'd be

  worried because the listeners ship

  numbers that you have from something

  like radio it's just like traditional

  broadcast TV used to be but of course

  everybody used to watch a few shows

  because there was no choice whatsoever

  but in in the modern world like you have

  infinite amount of choice which means if

  you can find something that you like you

  probably really like that thing and you

  can fill your life up with a bunch of

  stuff that you really like as opposed to

  something that you just kind of like so

  yeah if I was radio I'd be worried I

  just went and looked at Steve Allen's

  Twitter and an hour ago he's just

  tweeted vote vote vote

  in capital letters I'm gonna retweet

  that to say I shared the sentiment

  retweet that I have to retweet that too

  yeah well none like him I'm gonna

  include the link to the place where you

  vote well yeah because you know how the

  internet works yeah of course all right

  where is he yeah there he is Steve Allen

  live update vote vote vote all right

  yeah let's do this

  let me add a comment yep what do you

  guys think so the same thing I'm gonna

  say couldn't agree more dr. Brady Haran

  for the wind exclamation mark did you

  put the link yeah yeah I'm free the link

  in there we go great all right great

  you've gotta stay on the ball who's

  working for me you gotta see this arena

  oh yeah man I am I am here 110 percent

  buddy I'm here for you until the bitter

  bitter end and it's a great day only

  four great day oh yeah yes I don't care

  after this round whatever right but this

  is like cuz I feel a little big I feel a

  little bit guilty about like the

  technological expertise of the Tim's

  don't feel guilty about it at all

  because as far as I'm concerned this is

  exactly what the Radio Times wanted they

  wanted a gigantic click machine they

  left all the doors wide open for every

  possible way that you could click so as

  far as I'm concerned Radio Times is

  getting exactly what they wanted they'll

  be able to show their advertisers we had

  10 billion page views over the weekend

  right yeah they'll be able to sell that

  right along so far as I'm concerned

  everybody wins

  except Steve Allen hello listeners do

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  this show quick finish on 5,000 whoo

  I've been at the gym lately trying to

  get back on the horse again after

  falling off numerous times and I was

  having a discussion with my trainer the

  other day and it brought up something

  that I was curious to ask you and that

  is when you are doing like an exercise

  that involves counting like ten reps or

  twelve of them will do 20 of that do you

  count up or count down

  it's really interesting that you ask

  that Brady right because I have always

  counted up right but I have I don't know

  maybe a month ago I decided that that

  was the wrong way to do it yeah I should

  switch to counting down this seems like

  the better way to do it because it feels

  like more finality and more motivation

  to get to the end because then you're

  just keeping in your mind the number

  that's counting down you're not keeping

  in mind two things like counting up and

  the target that you're counting to you

  right you're a smart boy can you know

  hold that if not much information in

  your head it's not about that it's just

  about simplification it seems like this

  is the better way to do it it's not it's

  not of course Brady I can hold two

  pieces of information in my head at once

  but if I can hold just one piece of

  information in my head I would prefer to

  do that however I have found this is

  almost impossible to do

  I cannot mentally retrain myself to

  count down versus counting up like I

  keep mine constantly keep forgetting to

  do it or I find my internal count

  subroutine just wants to count up it

  just does is not designed to count in

  the opposite way so in my attempts to

  make something mentally simpler I have

  found that I have made it mentally

  impossible to do like I just cannot

  convince my brain to count down which

  way do you do it I definitely count up


  I prefer that too I haven't thought

  about the reasons but I'm gonna I'm

  about to speculate on it on the fly but

  I'm so into counting up that if my

  trainer counts down like towards the end

  like he used to go okay three two like

  so that's telling a philosophy I like

  tell him to stop I don't like it it just

  confuses me so he now knows not to speak

  he just says do do 10 silence no we talk

  a lot but just not to count mm-hm so

  like I count up and I don't like him to

  count with me event I think the reason I

  might like counting up is I like the

  idea that the thing I'm doing is growing


  a bank account growing or your scholar's

  wallboard growing like the numbers

  getting bigger and I'm achieving

  something look look now I've done five

  now done six the numbers getting bigger

  that's how strong and powerful I must be

  whereas if the if the number was

  diminishing I'd feel like I was just

  like hmm that's all going away I think

  that's why the count up happens because

  at least in my experience when you first

  tried to do any kind of exercise and you

  realize oh my arms are weak noodley

  appendages that could be nothing it's

  like oh wow lifting a bar above my head

  once this feels like a great

  accomplishment and then being able to do

  it twice that's why you start counting

  up I think that's why I started counting

  up without even thinking about it is you

  want to mark all of those achievements

  yeah I just think further along in the

  exercise routine now that I can do like

  five sets of five of an exercise it

  feels like the counting down is is the

  more correct way to do it but yeah I

  totally get you want to mark your

  achievements especially in the beginning

  when you were making very poor progress

  yeah another thing we were talking about

  was how much people like to know like

  for example when some people doing like

  the planks and things are that way you

  time it some of his clients don't like

  to be told the time at all they just

  want to be told at the end all right

  stop you learn the linen weaved other

  ones like tonight okay it's 5 seconds 10

  seconds 15 seconds and another thing he

  said was some people don't want to know

  how much weights been put on the bar

  like he'll put the things on there and

  say okay we're gonna do 10 reps you know

  and he wouldn't even tell them what the

  weight is and other people are really

  into it they want to know exactly what

  they're lifting and hours at our counts

  45 is okay right I say what about you I

  imagine you you quite like the

  information I would imagine when I was

  working in a very limited way with my

  trainer I found all of these additional

  things I just didn't I didn't like I

  didn't like any of these extra exercises

  I felt like I'm here to do a very simple

  and very narrow thing so I want to make

  sure that I'm not hurting myself on the

  exercises that I'm doing yeah like my

  trainer was trying to sell me on a bunch

  of like hey let's do these routines

  because you know we want to complicate

  to profit and have you here all the time


  me feeling like I want to extract

  knowledge from you and then be done with

  you right was was my my feeling of how

  this interaction should go I'll just say

  that I I felt very aware that on the

  times that my trainer was getting me to

  do like the routines that he wanted to

  do I felt like there were always like

  tricks being pulled like I don't think

  you're reporting the amount of time or

  weight accurately to me I think you're

  reporting it in a way that makes me feel

  better about what I'm accomplishing and

  I don't need any of these tricks I don't

  want to know that that's my feeling

  about it I think you're a little bit too

  distrustful there but yeah

  oh yeah you don't you don't think any

  trainers would pull tricks to make you

  feel better about cutting down the

  seconds a little bit so you feel like

  you accomplished something

  I think trainers would do that well

  maybe they do that they certainly try to

  boost your confidence and encourage you

  but I don't think that's like a bad

  thing but I mean yeah I guess I'd go to

  a trainer for a different reason to you

  I mean of course I could just go and do

  all the exercises myself but the problem

  is I won't do it unless I have like an

  appointment and someone making me do it

  for an hour a if I don't have an

  appointment I probably won't go and if I

  do go I'll just watch cricket on the TV

  and skive off after 15 minutes and get a

  Chinese on the way home basically think

  of there was this gym my parents old

  place in North Carolina that had a bagel

  shop in the gym right at the entry I

  used to wonder like I bet there's a a

  non-trivial number of people who say I'm

  going to the gym they go in they get a

  nice breakfast bagel and orange juice

  jump on it for a while and then just go

  home I bet that bagel shop tat up did a

  pretty good profit of people just

  turning around and feeling like well I

  tried I went to the gym I didn't make it

  inside of course but I made it to this

  suspiciously placed bagel shop which is

  right at the entry another thing I do is

  if I'm doing an exercise that's quite

  difficult and I know I'm gonna be really

  pushing it to get to the end like he

  says like I do 12 reps of this and it's

  something really heavy I will sometimes

  break it into two lots of six in my head

  I'll count up to six and then I'll do

  another six mm-hmm I guess it's just

  making things achievable yeah it's like

  any goal Brady you got to break it down


  achieve Abul parts because 12:12 the

  number too big for any mortal but two

  sets of six that might just be

  accomplishable or another thing is that

  makes me realize how psychological it is

  is how often the number he sets is my

  breaking point

  like okay you have to do seven at this

  really high way and the seventh one is

  like oh well I couldn't have done eight

  it would have been physically impossible

  that was my absolute limit but if he'd

  said to do eight it would have been the

  same thing but your body just like knows

  the finish line and like just falls over

  the finish line each time yeah yeah I

  want to be clear to any any Tim's who

  are listening who want to get on the

  fitter Tron lifestyle even though I have

  a particularly weird relationship with

  my trainer that was also extremely

  temporary I am again the first to

  acknowledge that if you want to do this

  kind of stuff like I highly recommend

  that you get a trainer because I was

  super aware of that effect to that the

  number he would mention would be the

  breaking point but it would also very

  often be further than I I would have

  been able to do if it was just me in the

  gym if it was just me thinking like oh

  instead of doing five reps I'm gonna try

  to do seven like I would never have been

  able to do seven but when he says do

  seven there is also that effect of like

  you're with another person and you want

  to try to do the thing so it's like it

  is definitely way more effective to have

  the person there but yeah I also found

  that effect very noticeable and very

  funny that I could always just barely

  achieve the thing that the trainer had

  said and I don't think it's because

  trainers are preternatural and their

  ability to predict exactly what your

  breaking point is I think there's

  something psychological about pushing

  yourself toward a limit that another

  person has specified what's your finish

  on five thousand set up at the moment

  what are you doing oh man so okay so

  here's the thing here's the thing that I

  find a little depressing I've been in

  America for six weeks very very long

  time America as we know streets are

  paved with donuts mm-hmm but more than

  that one of the problems that I have

  with traveling is that okay so in my

  regular routine I use freeway

  to do like bench presses and squats and

  this kind of stuff like this again very

  very low weights like I'm not doing

  anything impressive but I have found for

  me those are the exercises that I stick

  with the most that also have the most

  obvious impact for the minimum amount of

  time that I can possibly put in don't

  say the weights are low gray I always

  think it makes you sound like an awesome

  gorilla when you say I had to first seek

  professional advice to make sure I

  wasn't hurting myself it makes it sound

  like you're pulling planes with your

  teeth and lifting up cars with your bare

  hands yeah but that's exactly why I want

  to specify two people the weights are

  low because when they see my noodley

  body in person it's like wait a minute I

  thought you lifted weights and like yes

  I do

  they're very sad oh I thought maybe you

  were gonna say yeah I'm saying the

  weights are low just for other people's

  safety when in fact I'm just lifting

  incredible amounts that would kill a

  normal human like it's almost like a

  public safety reason that you're saying

  you live low weights when in fact you

  are lifting cars I wish that was the

  case but so I build up the weight very

  slowly over time because I'm just there

  in the gym myself so I want to be

  cautious again about injuring myself and

  so like my progression is

  extraordinarily slow but then what

  happens is over the summer it's way

  harder to get access while traveling to

  the kind of equipment that I'm normally

  using and so for six weeks I've been

  trying to exercise using crappy gym

  equipment essentially and you know

  you're going to get the machines at best

  to try to replicate some of the

  exercises that you do and I felt like I

  thought over the summer I was doing a

  pretty good job of probably maintaining

  my level of strength using resistance

  machines but just just two days ago

  after having finally come back from

  America and getting into my regular gym

  and getting back to the regular

  equipment I discovered that I was

  basically starting again from zero

  because those machines in the gym that

  just do one motion if you just don't

  realize how much they're helping you in

  the way that you don't have to use all

  kinds of stabilizing muscles you don't

  have to use any other part of your body

  it's like oh I'm doing a bench press on

  this machine it's like I'm literally

  exercising too

  muscles exactly and nothing else what's

  the benefit of those machines then is it

  the fact that you can really target a

  muscle la la I think the benefit of

  those machines is that it's less likely

  that people are going to injure

  themselves in a gym and so the insurance

  costs are lower like I think okay if I

  had to wager something I would wager

  that's why they're there oh so if I went

  to a gym and all their head was free

  weights I would think what am I paying

  for just a whole bunch of lumps of metal

  right have you not spent anything you

  know what I would believe that I would

  believe that that's an effect that

  people want to see a bunch of equipment

  because I feel actually like I've even

  kind of fallen for that because again in

  America when I've gone into gyms I feel

  like I'm Way more impressed by the gyms

  that have like a ton of equipment hmm

  even though I'm trying to walk to the

  very back of the gym to find the one

  free weight area and I want to skip all

  the rest of it but I still feel like I'm

  psychologically influenced by the

  existence of all of those machines even

  though I don't necessarily think that

  they're super beneficial for me my

  feeling is like I'm a little bit

  disappointed because I thought strength

  wise I had done a much better job of

  maintaining but I'm essentially starting

  over again from zero with the actual

  free weights because this is like oh man

  I am dramatically overestimated where I

  could continue from and so I'm building

  it back up but I don't mind because

  again I feel like the travelling was

  necessary and just like we're always

  saying with the fit of Tron lifestyle I

  feel like it's all about just getting

  back on all the time like as long as you

  as long as you're willing to continually

  get back on that's what really matters

  as opposed to any absolute position at

  any point in time do you get affected by

  the presence and the makeup and the

  demographics and the number of other

  people who are in the gym when you go

  like will you go into the free weights

  section and if there's like a bunch of

  huge bodybuilders doing awesome things

  will you just like sneak away because

  you're a bit embarrassed to be noodle

  man or are you completely oblivious to

  who's there and what who's doing what my

  only care is how many people are in the

  gym in terms of can I get access to the

  equipment right so I have strategically

  figured out the times when the fewest

  people are in the gym and I arrange my

  whole schedule around that right because

  it's like an immovable externality in my


  but the thing I found really interesting

  and again I want to specify to anybody

  who's thinking of going to the gym is I

  have found the super muscley guys

  nothing but the nicest guys in the world

  at least at least in my gym like it's

  not a lot of interaction but on

  occasions that I've had interactions

  it's always just like oh yeah they're

  super happy to see other people in the

  gym exercising like always very nice so

  I've never felt intimidated by any of

  those people if anything I always feel

  just super impressed because I have a

  much better sense now of how much work

  and effort that really represents in a

  way that I never had before I think I

  just have a much better sense for when I

  see a guy who's really built up his body

  it's like that is a lot of work two

  thumbs up to you dude fair enough

  are you intimidated by them Brady I am

  affected by how many people are in the

  gym and I don't like making a spectacle

  of myself so you don't throw the the

  weights down on the floor and you go

  hard as they make a big bashing sound

  yeah and also like even with my trainer

  he's now learnt like if I'm doing

  something that is likely to turn

  people's heads just because it involves

  eye catching motion or noise I want to

  do that like hidden away like if I'm

  doing something as simple as box jumps I

  don't want to do that out in the middle

  of the gym in a public area he knows I

  just don't like yeah that kind of stuff

  I would hate I would hate to do yeah I'm

  with there are certain exercises I won't

  do like I won't do like you know when

  you could hold weights at your side and

  you do lunges but you like walk across

  the gym oh yes no no I won't know that

  I'll do lunges on the spot but I'm not

  going to be that guy walking across the

  gym doing lunges like down the aisle in

  front of everyone and stuff I'm like no

  I don't want to be looked at I'm not

  quite sure I obviously I'm not a shy

  person but I don't know at the gym I

  don't like being a spectacle I just want

  to be in my corner do my stuff yeah yeah

  I'd veto a spectacle exercises as well

  can I just do a little bit of sports

  Ball corner so I just thought I'd sneak

  that in it's a question that immediately

  rolls into the start of sports ball


  it's really a question its but I of

  course Brady of course go ahead with

  sports ball corner because it starts

  with a little little sports spoke on a

  sequel that I thought you would

  appreciate ooh

  because we talked about this golfer who

  lost a big tournament because she had

  marked her bowl incorrectly on the green

  and put it back like a centimeter in the

  wrong place and she got this huge

  draconian penalty and it cost her an

  entire tournament and I thought that was

  really unfair right right

  as a result they actually changed some

  of the guidelines in golf to give people

  running tournaments a bit of discretion

  when that happens

  lo and behold there was another big

  tournament recently that was one there

  was the Irish Open this was a men's to

  on him at this time the exact same thing

  happened there was a slight miss placing

  of a bowl that was discovered very minor

  I don't it doesn't affect the results

  for my opinion and I think sanity

  prevailed and he wasn't penalized and he

  won the tournament okay he won the

  torn-up by six shots anyway but but

  anyway another golfer took to Twitter to

  complain about this you know what I

  could describe as a very gray like

  response that I thought you would


  Jimmy Walker replied to the European

  Golf Tour

  nice enforcement of the rules of golf

  and then he followed up with a second

  tweet saying if we don't have rules then

  we have nothing and that desmet of

  grayness to me I thought I thought you

  would appreciate that I do I mean the

  rules are civilization that's that's how

  everything holds together I agree with

  that but from your description it sounds

  like discretion was built into the rules

  so I'm not I'm not sure that this is a

  case where that's a violation how can

  you have like discretion in rules though

  like basically what's happening is you

  have now have flexible rows where it

  could be enforced or not enforced

  depending on a human decision don't get

  me wrong I don't like the discretion

  right like if I was in charge of any

  kind of sports body I would work to

  remove the discretion as much as

  possible in every step in every way but

  nonetheless what I'm what I'm saying is

  if the rules as currently written have a

  place where there is room for human

  discretion the players are operating

  within those rules yeah

  that is what is happening but there's a

  meta question here about should you have

  rules where there are human discretion

  and I think you end up having

  essentially human discretion results

  when there's no technological solution

  and so like before you have replay

  cameras you have to have umpires making

  decisions on the spot because otherwise

  the game would take a thousand hours to

  play out so then that's what I mean it's

  like I'm fine with it if it's written

  into the rules but on a meta level we

  should work overtime to reduce the human

  discretion in sports games because it's

  just like it it feels like ultimately a

  human discretion call has to have some

  element of unfairness because it depends

  on so many things happening at that

  exact instant I mean a statement from

  the people who make the rules of golf

  and oversee golf is quite telling but

  also could lead to problems it says

  players should not be held to the degree

  of precision that can sometimes be

  provided by video technology and like on

  the face of it that seems quite a

  reasonable statement you know no I don't

  ok I don't agree with that at all that

  reasonable in the slightest no no that's

  a rule that's rejecting the available

  technology I don't like that one tiny

  bit no but like basically the context of

  this is though it's not saying you know

  who crossed the line first in a race

  let's look at the video to know once and

  for all this is about things like

  replacing your bowl you know you pick up

  the ball and like wipe the grass off it

  can you put it back in the exact same

  spot that you picked it up from like a

  video will show actually it was half a

  millimeter to the left of where you just

  put it down players aren't robots they

  can't do that

  yeah ok physically can't do that I'll

  agree with that one that seems fair but

  here the technological limitation is the

  human eye right we're conceding that the

  resolution of the human eye and and

  memory for exact placement has limits

  so yeah I can go along with that that

  seems okay to me but then it does open

  this blurry line like ok how much can

  you be wrong by can you be wrong by 3

  millimeters can you be wrong by 5

  millimeters or can you just be wrong by

  whatever Jeff the rules man says on the

  day anyway what this is making me think

  of is I may have told this before but

  ages and ages ago when I was merely

  training to be a teacher there was this

  big list of boxes that we need to tick

  and I mean quite literally

  several hundred there was either like

  things you need to do to demonstrate

  evidence for your becoming a teacher

  mm-hmm and I'll never forget this

  conversation that I had with my advisor

  that essentially boiled down to I was

  like okay how many of these boxes do I

  need to tick

  she was says it would be great if you

  could take all of the boxes that's like

  okay yes I understand it would be great

  if I could take all of the boxes but

  what's the minimum number of boxes I

  could tick and you would still certify

  me as a teacher right it's like she she

  just would not give me an answer about

  that but it's like of course you want to

  know like what is the biggest boundary

  that I can push and yes I can

  immediately see that next year if the

  rule is the ball can be placed within

  the range of the human ability to

  determine what is the exact same spot I

  would be the guy who as a golfer who'd

  be saying the same thing like okay

  obviously I can't put it down the exact

  same spot but if I put it down a

  centimeter away is that still a good

  right and like they're not gonna want to

  say yeah

  whatever they're thinking in there and

  that would become the new norm Yeah

  right exactly it was like so I can move

  the ball a centimeter each time is that

  what you're saying and they're like no

  no you can't do it on purpose is like no

  of course not on purpose but like

  there's gotta be some number so it just

  it feels like the same situation again

  well great I enjoy your perspective on

  sporting controversies and incidents I'm

  glad you do there was one that came up

  earlier this year though I also I'm just

  dying to hear your opinion on and it

  happened so long ago that I thought I'd

  kind of missed my opportunity to ask you

  about it but it came up again in the

  news recently because of like ongoing

  action and it gives me a second bite of

  the cherry so I want to tell you about

  this other story that happened and just

  to get your perspective because it

  always illuminates me so what happened

  was at the start of this year there was

  a football match in the UK a soccer

  match and I won't go into the reasons

  why but there's one or two knockout

  tournaments in the UK we're really

  really lowly teams that bordering on

  amateur if not completely amateur get to

  play against the big professional teams

  in the early rounds and it's like it's

  always a big treat for them they hardly

  ever win if they win it becomes massive

  but it's always a big occasion Oh

  you know this lowly group of footballers

  who are plumbers and carpenters and that

  are playing against all the millionaire

  superstars this week can they beat them

  they normally get crushed sometimes

  sometimes they went really anyway it's

  always very romantic and the media gets

  very carried away with it when these

  random draws happen that allow this to

  happen happened this year at the start

  of the year this lowly team called

  Sutton United got to play against the

  millionaire superstars from Arsenal so

  there was all this there are all these

  profile pieces and media stories before

  the game about all the players for

  Sutton how they're all amateurs and how

  they're all these you know just normal

  chaps and they're getting to have their

  big day in the Sun and the thing the

  media really fell in love is was the

  fact that Sutton United's goalkeeping

  coach and also like their reserve

  goalkeeper in a way like if their

  goalkeeper got injured he was the guy

  that would come on in an emergency was

  this guy called Wayne Shaw and basically

  he seems like a nice guy

  but he's like very he's overweight he

  doesn't he doesn't look like a sportsman

  he's big he's a big fat guy and he's

  like a character of the club and I think

  he was also responsible for like you

  know cleaning the toilets or locking the

  gates and stuff you know he was like a

  salt of the earth important guy for the

  club that they all loved but he also

  happened to be their reserve goalkeeper

  in an emergency would he get to come on

  and play if there was an injury you get

  the picture but another thing that

  happens in the UK around sport is the

  betting markets the companies that take

  bets love creating publicity for

  themselves of course and one of them

  started a betting market on whether or

  not because this guy Wayne Shaw would be

  sitting on the bench for the whole game

  unless you had to play which was

  unlikely while he was sitting on the

  bench would this guy eat a pie a meat

  pie because like the thing you do at a

  football match if you're in the fan is

  you eat these small meat pies which I

  know I know they're not a big deal in

  America these sort of handheld sized

  pies full of mate but that's what you

  ate at a cold football game in England

  yeah only in a pie haha we'll give you

  these odds that he will or he might and

  they gave some ridiculous odds yeah I

  think just to be clear for the Americans

  like you need to understand that there's

  like a small handheld

  thing all right this is not like a like

  a cream pie or a big fruit pie now it's

  like yeah it's like a small half muffin

  it's a it's a very small thing but it's

  an unhealthy thing to it it's an

  unhealthy things eat and the word pie is

  just a funny word yeah and also pies are

  traditionally associated with like

  overweight people like yeah like a mean

  chart that people do is you know who ate

  all the pies who ate all the part as it

  was you because you're overweight so pie

  is that the stereotypical thing to say

  it if that person will eat so anyway

  towards the end of this game Arsenal won

  the game as expected the goalkeeping guy

  didn't have to come on because there was

  no injury so he set on the bench the

  whole game about 5-10 minutes before I

  can tell you eight minutes before the

  end of the game

  this guy Wayne sure eats of pie say sup

  someone passes in my pie is obviously

  going along with the joke and there's

  all these pictures and footage of him

  eating a pie and for like the first few

  hours it was really funny and it became

  the big funny story of the game because

  otherwise it was just a pretty boring

  game a big famous team beat a lowly

  little team but there's also a lot of

  like controversy around betting on sport

  literally in the UK and things being

  rigged like you know if someone said you

  know we're gonna win three nil and you

  rigged the game to win three nil that

  people could go to prison for that but

  should there be a scandal about a guy

  eating a pie like he knew this thing

  existed these bets existed when he made

  the decision to eat the pie he was like

  affecting the outcome and apparently

  some people won very large amounts of

  money because he ate the pie no I'm

  thinking I hope he bet on him eating a

  pie right like I want this guy to be a

  millionaire it would definitely be

  illegal for him to it would be illegal

  for him or people he was conspiring with

  to rig a betting market lada anyway who

  couldn't that's happen offshore like

  this I feel like there's a way to get

  this guy is pie money well you're quite

  right I think some people believe maybe

  he did conspire with people to make

  money I don't know but in the end he got

  in so much trouble from the football

  authorities he had to resign this guy

  that everyone at the club loves who

  paints the Lions and locks the gates and

  has loves the club with his heart and so

  he had to resign he's like being

  charged under football rules and he's in

  a whole bunch of trouble it's called pi

  gate it's this huge scandal that is like

  rolling on and I don't know what to

  think about it because if he didn't eat

  the pie he would have been affecting the

  marker as well once he knew this was

  happening he had sole control over

  whether he ate the pie or not it's not

  like he was out on the field and could

  you know didn't have total control over

  whether a girl was caught or not he had

  total control over whether he did or

  didn't eat the pie yeah I don't know

  what to think I want it I want you to

  sort this out for me

  well it just sounds like a big pile of

  bullshit because what it sounds like

  because first of all this whole

  situation is hilarious so there's an

  element of why don't we all just calm

  the hell down everybody and second of

  all you're right like as soon as the

  betting market is created we're in

  action triggers a betting results it's

  like well it doesn't matter what he does

  heats of pi he doesn't need to PI he

  goes to the game he doesn't show up to

  the game like all all of this now

  affects bets one way or the other

  yeah so what's a guy supposed to do and

  I feel like this hero knew what he was

  supposed to do he did the funniest thing

  which is to eat a pie so yeah like you

  put a man in a no-win situation he does

  something funny hopefully he's a secret

  millionaire offshore in the Bahamas for

  his actions but he's caught up in in

  some PI gate scandal like this seems

  crazy to me is this feels like people

  are too upset about a thing and the

  guy's in a no-win situation and having

  him resign from from his position it's

  like makes me angry Brady that's how I

  feel about that yeah the odds were 8 to

  1 you could put an 8 to 1 bet on him

  eating a pie mm-hmm just for

  clarification I'm pretty sure I don't

  know this for sure but I'm pretty sure

  you couldn't place a bet on him not

  eating a pie like that wasn't a bet you

  could place I don't think but presumably

  the betting company that was setting the

  odds would make money if he didn't eat

  the pie because all the people who

  placed bets would lose their wager yeah

  exactly he could he could have been

  equally in trouble from people saying

  are you were in cahoots with the betting

  company you deliberately didn't eat the

  pie so they could keep all those wages

  and he'd get in trouble for that as well

  in action causes and effects anyway

  right so god it's yeah this feels

  ridiculous to me and look maybe the man

  just want to eat a pie right well he was

  hungry he insisted afterwards that none

  of his friends had profited from the

  stunt and he only consumed a snack for

  quote a bit of banter as they love to

  say in the UK sure said this was a quote

  from him immediately after the game a

  few of the lads said to me early on

  what's going on with 8 to 1 about eating

  a pie and I said I don't know I've eaten

  nothing all day so I might give it a go

  later on I thought it would give them a

  bit of banter but the FA and gambling

  Commission failed to see the funny side

  and launched investigations the

  integrity in sport is not a joke

  said Richard Watson enforcement and

  intelligence director at the gambling

  Commission no hope this sounds like a

  fun guy great um a sort of related thing

  is I just I don't understand a lot of

  laws around like gambling and investing

  it's just sometimes they feel like laws

  that are kind of nannying laws like oh

  they're for your own good like oh you're

  not allowed to place bets or gamble

  regularly but you can do it with these

  various companies that we sanctioned

  like this this is a whole bunch of

  complications around the stuff that I

  just don't like anyway why shouldn't

  people be able to bet on whatever they

  want to bet on why is that wrong you

  know like if people want to set up a

  betting market for hello Internet like

  why would that be wrong about we know

  whether or not sports ball corner shows

  up in an episode what is wrong with

  people doing like a like a private wager

  on something like that I don't I don't

  get it

  well obviously the problem is it can be

  manipulated and cheated and if you and I

  found out about it and placed bets and

  then just cut sports poor corner so we

  could profit like that would be

  profitable it feels kind of wrong but

  like like I don't think this bet should

  have existed like you said it was like a

  no-win situation and there weren't two

  parties to the yeah you know what that's

  that that's actually a really good point

  because it's like the sanction cuz

  there's like these sanction companies in

  the UK that allowed the sports Spedding

  that I don't fully understand exactly

  how they work but in the UK you're

  allowed to bet on foreign elections like

  you can bet on the US presidential

  election results for example I'm just

  kind of vaguely wondering last time

  about the legality of

  so an American citizen you're not

  allowed to bet on the presidential

  election which seems like it's spoiling

  the fun but I just wanted like in an

  American citizen bet on a election while

  abroad like is that legally okay is that

  not legally okay I don't know whatever

  but nonetheless these companies exist

  that are allowed to create the bets that

  people can bet on and so it feels like

  well wait a minute yeah I think you're

  right Brady I feel like this this

  company is actually at fault because

  they're the ones that created this

  ridiculous bet like you got sanctioned

  to be the official holders of what can

  be better what cannot be bets and you

  messed it up by making this stupid pie

  bet your fault I think the company that

  made the pie bet they should resign from

  their ability to have the license for

  sports gambling that's what I think hmm

  shut him down I do see the problem with

  my liked to party

  comment earlier because obviously you

  could bet on whether Usain Bolt will run

  100 meters in under 10 seconds and he

  could affect that presumably

  without another party but like there are

  sanctions for that too but yeah it's

  difficult d gamble grade you ever bet on

  things when i gamble i gamble big so

  I'll buy lottery tickets but I find most

  gambling is too small stakes to be of

  interest to me when you said that I

  thought what do you buy like a thousand

  pounds with the fluttery tickets or

  something like this

  I does mean like the the payoff has to

  be really big in order for me to be

  interested in the gambling because

  otherwise it feels like oh I'm just

  putting money into a machine that is

  guaranteed to skim some money off the

  top and give it back to me obviously

  lottery tickets do the same thing but I

  feel like I'm happy to pay the skimming

  fee in order to get a potentially big

  reward so that's that's me go big or go

  home with gambling that's my rule have

  you bought lottery tickets lately

  because I know that in a your happiness

  barometer is it has been a long long

  time since I bought a lottery ticket so

  that's good I haven't bought a lottery

  ticket him probably a couple years

  actually oh that means you're happy

  basically since hello internet started

  yes that's right since hello internet

  started and I've I get to talk to you

  every two weeks my life has been filled

  with rainbows and happiness all the time

  I wonder if there's a

  market going on at the moment for Brady

  Haran versus Steve Allen I know where

  I'd place my bet

  are you still there

  not I thought you're being very

  unresponsive I'm calling you back and

  then I'll find out when you dropped out

  I'm just talking to myself now