The Incomparable

155: The Cat Who Listened to Podcasts


  the incomparable number 185 artists 2013 [TS]

  welcome back to being comfortable i'm [TS]

  your host Jason L we're here in this [TS]

  installment to talk about neil gaiman [TS]

  most specifically his latest novel the [TS]

  ocean at the end of the lane we might [TS]

  also talk a little bit about other neil [TS]

  gaiman that we have read and thought of [TS]

  but basically we're gonna focus on the [TS]

  ocean at the end of the lane and joining [TS]

  me in this edition of our book club to [TS]

  talk about it i have two lovely guest [TS]

  dan morgan is here as he always is and i [TS]

  do think that i like is i do i know i'm [TS]

  playing his part tonight [TS]

  ok thank you think i will not speak much [TS]

  you can tell me what to read later and [TS]

  uh and also david lawrence here [TS]

  hi again hi back I have have I been here [TS]

  before I let me sit next to this pond [TS]

  and think about them [TS]

  Oh whoo that's a book reference that you [TS]

  did there was I don't know I don't get [TS]

  it [TS]

  so the ocean at the end of the lane a [TS]

  hundred ninety-two page [TS]

  I don't know the backstory here I don't [TS]

  know if who actually did read that he [TS]

  intended this originally to be a short [TS]

  story and then it kind of got out of [TS]

  hand through each other going and [TS]

  telling a little bit and if you're a [TS]

  famous short the successful writer like [TS]

  neil gaiman and you write something of [TS]

  any length that you might consider a [TS]

  novella from somewhere else your agent [TS]

  and your publisher say we wait that the [TS]

  novel but it's it's kinda short at it's [TS]

  a novel will it sell it so it's it's um [TS]

  it's 290 pages line along in my addition [TS]

  I according to wikipedia 292 page don't [TS]

  know you know what hardcover in my hand [TS]

  in 278 even shorter wow look at that so [TS]

  their wikipedia is overselling it [TS]

  well are you suggesting wikipedia is [TS]

  wrong about something my god we've [TS]

  broken the well I don't know tonight up [TS]

  the world is not as it appears dan oh [TS]

  yeah all right there are oceans that are [TS]

  pawns it's very strange [TS]

  so um I actually kind of like before we [TS]

  get into talking about it i really liked [TS]

  reading something that was [TS]

  self-contained and wasn't a [TS]

  thousand-page book that's one in a [TS]

  series it was really nice to read [TS]

  something short and sweet and I liked it [TS]

  a lot but also i like i like the words a [TS]

  lot and i liked the name [TS]

  for of words even more but there weren't [TS]

  that many of them it was kinda nice [TS]

  yeah it's a story that it's very [TS]

  efficiently told some ways which is not [TS]

  to suggest that it's not without its art [TS]

  obviously but can be efficient i think i [TS]

  mean i read this i read this on vacation [TS]

  the week before we're recording this and [TS]

  I read it in a day [TS]

  I mean like I finished a book the [TS]

  previous book I was reading and I was [TS]

  like all right I'm certain your game [TS]

  because I brought it specifically [TS]

  because i want to read on vacation and [TS]

  ended up you know i read in a couple [TS]

  like you know a couple settings settings [TS]

  like when i finished it before bed and [TS]

  yeah i mean that is that's where it's [TS]

  been a long time since i read a book in [TS]

  the day rather than couple settings [TS]

  rather than a tree that you like a [TS]

  forever by a lake [TS]

  I read by the lake i read it on a chick [TS]

  in a chair all right I like a comfy [TS]

  chair and a porch in a bed two sittings [TS]

  and two settings in a box with a fox fox [TS]

  yeah with my studies in my socks and [TS]

  planning I did not read it in the rain I [TS]

  would not could not read it in the rain [TS]

  it's true anyways yeah I wouldn't it was [TS]

  funny because I just talked to sit down [TS]

  have a vacation with my family and my [TS]

  cousin is a couple years older than me [TS]

  is also a bit of you know fantasy [TS]

  science fiction fan and so he's like if [TS]

  you read over the ocean at the [TS]

  underlying yet i was like no no I have [TS]

  it on this trip I'm gonna read it and [TS]

  he's he you know tried very hard not to [TS]

  spoil i actually knew very little about [TS]

  this book going in despite the fact that [TS]

  i follow him on twitter and read his [TS]

  blog like I I sort of got bits and [TS]

  pieces but not I did not read the book [TS]

  jacket or anything like that I kind of [TS]

  went in unprepared and I think you know [TS]

  what i think i like that you know i [TS]

  think that's something I don't do very [TS]

  often and it's refreshing it's like [TS]

  going to a movie that you don't know [TS]

  anything about right and then you're [TS]

  surprised and delighted by it like oh [TS]

  wow this is pretty cool i dont even into [TS]

  a trailer or commercial for anything and [TS]

  they're required backstory don't want to [TS]

  know what universe it's set in or what [TS]

  series it's a part of or anything like [TS]

  that it's just [TS]

  hey Neil Gaiman road new book i'm going [TS]

  to read it anyway yeah and i have a [TS]

  further point about that but I wait wait [TS]

  until we get to the book discussion so [TS]

  noted yet I mean I i read it in two [TS]

  sittings to just over two nights but any [TS]

  settings only only one only one to enter [TS]

  next Settings icon [TS]

  yeah yeah next time I'll build a set [TS]

  there you go there you do that [TS]

  and yeah i mean i originally I got it [TS]

  just because my older son is in to neil [TS]

  gaiman thanks to Coraline and the [TS]

  graveyard book and without alright you [TS]

  know we'll get this and yeah if if i get [TS]

  around to reading it [TS]

  so when you through this and there's no [TS]

  yeah alright i can do that and you [TS]

  mentioned it to an actor friend of mine [TS]

  and he said oh my god you're going to [TS]

  love it said okay you know whatever [TS]

  any-any didn't spoil and he wanted to [TS]

  you know it was the same kind of thing [TS]

  and so last night after i finished it i [TS]

  sent him a message [TS]

  I said oh my god and he said yep there [TS]

  you go and i'll tell you what else he [TS]

  said later but that's part of the book [TS]

  discussion one of the things I really [TS]

  liked about this book is ok first off [TS]

  Neil Gaiman is a really good writer [TS]

  let's just say yeah well he's either [TS]

  that's a given let's just put that you [TS]

  enter that into evidence [TS]

  well there are a lot of successful [TS]

  people were big fan followings I'm not [TS]

  naming names who are even even something [TS]

  like george RR martin who has got a lot [TS]

  of things going for people whose books I [TS]

  like we don't need to talk about like [TS]

  feed and things like that people whose [TS]

  books i like but I read them i think [TS]

  well I like the idea is more than I like [TS]

  the actual writing right real game is a [TS]

  good writer yeah and sometimes the words [TS]

  are to the you know to the service of [TS]

  the book we you don't stop and reread [TS]

  that particular turn of phrase for [TS]

  example and there's nothing wrong with [TS]

  that either plenty of books i read where [TS]

  it's like I've died like the story like [TS]

  the characters not really paying a lot [TS]

  of attention the writing but like that [TS]

  that that is sort of that's like gravy [TS]

  for me like if you know and sometimes it [TS]

  gets in the way like there are there [TS]

  definitely writers who try too hard to [TS]

  be like good like lyrical writers and [TS]

  they that it just gets obfuscating in [TS]

  terms of like the story but but his [TS]

  stuff is subtle and not something you I [TS]

  you know occasionally find myself [TS]

  re-reading sentences and I'm realizing [TS]

  that sir it's really really well-crafted [TS]

  sentence did not show we necessarily no [TS]

  no they're not just weren't but they're [TS]

  there to the point and yet I think about [TS]

  your laurita sensitive man if I wrote [TS]

  that sounds that sounds would be like [TS]

  super way boring way more boring [TS]

  yeah if you wrote that particular [TS]

  sentence you like punch the air and get [TS]

  up and go with you I'll be like oh my [TS]

  god i'm neil gaiman that's amazing but [TS]

  yeah yeah he's a good writer and um and [TS]

  then I like the tone of this book and [TS]

  and I've seen their similar tones and [TS]

  some of the other books that he's [TS]

  written a lot of his books have this [TS]

  kind of tone but I like that it's you [TS]

  know it starts off as a memoir it turns [TS]

  into sort of a fairy tale it never it [TS]

  never seems even when it's sort of at [TS]

  its most scary or at least has the most [TS]

  plot complication by the antagonist of [TS]

  the story [TS]

  it never I don't know it always seems [TS]

  kind of gentle I'll take issue with that [TS]

  one particular scene but overall I think [TS]

  I fair enough i think i'll see where I [TS]

  see where you're going a reminder there [TS]

  is [TS]

  yes that's right the core there's a some [TS]

  ugliness but around especially the first [TS]

  part of it i mean yeah you really [TS]

  essentially are reading his memoir and [TS]

  until suddenly it becomes something [TS]

  that's different but it's just it's i [TS]

  don't know it was very pleasant to read [TS]

  the whole experience was pleasant in in [TS]

  all the settings and settings that it [TS]

  took three did make me think that like [TS]

  other you mention the memoir part like I [TS]

  and knowing as much about neil gaiman as [TS]

  i did because i have followed him for [TS]

  many years and like personally like a [TS]

  foam around now I because I because I've [TS]

  read a lot of this stuff because i read [TS]

  his blog i know a little bit about you [TS]

  know his life whatever shares in the [TS]

  internet and so knowing that stuff it [TS]

  was very interesting to read and try to [TS]

  figure out how much of this is [TS]

  influenced by you know his own life [TS]

  because it's not hard to read into that [TS]

  at least in the beginning you know that [TS]

  there's they're certainly elements of [TS]

  sure but yeah I thought that was I [TS]

  thought that was interesting one and the [TS]

  gentleness is what makes those horrific [TS]

  moments stand out and makes them that [TS]

  much more effective to because it's [TS]

  almost like he's load you into this [TS]

  just beautiful storytelling in this [TS]

  beautiful setting and even when I mean [TS]

  the characters are doing that too right [TS]

  yeah the the family whose name now the [TS]

  hem stocks right they [TS]

  great they keep reassuring him to in his [TS]

  flashbacks that it's gonna be okay just [TS]

  hold my hand everything's going to be [TS]

  fine and so not only is the writer and [TS]

  the tone of the book reassuring you the [TS]

  characters are reassuring the the [TS]

  protagonist it's gonna be okay don't [TS]

  worry about it just hold on it's gonna [TS]

  be fine [TS]

  well I'm not that worried it's not gonna [TS]

  be a problem [TS]

  it's fine and then enforce it it's not [TS]

  entirely five break when it's a way of [TS]

  getting him through it and even at the [TS]

  end when he gets through in a different [TS]

  way [TS]

  trying not to spoil anything but again [TS]

  it comes back to the reassurance and the [TS]

  yes of course that's exactly how it went [TS]

  yes it's okay the the writer reminded me [TS]

  the most of the book that reminded me [TS]

  the most up was actually ray bradbury [TS]

  something wicked this way cause like [TS]

  yeah there's a very similar tone to that [TS]

  book which is also sort of about dealing [TS]

  with that childhood not quite the cusp [TS]

  of childhood but like there's an element [TS]

  of being a kid and being exposed to [TS]

  these fantastical elements and you know [TS]

  I think we all it's always interesting [TS]

  to read a book from the perspective of a [TS]

  child especially like fancy books like [TS]

  this because i don't know about you guys [TS]

  but I kind of really putting myself back [TS]

  in the you know in the mindset of [TS]

  feeling like a kid again and thinking [TS]

  about how when you're a kid how real all [TS]

  those things are to you and so there's a [TS]

  lot of the book which for me at least [TS]

  the first half or so I reading through [TS]

  like well there's a lot in here that you [TS]

  can kind of you could almost rationalize [TS]

  in a very logical like real world kind [TS]

  of way like there are real-world events [TS]

  that might cause a child to you know [TS]

  imagine these types of things compounded [TS]

  with you know something bad happening [TS]

  right like their traumatic events for [TS]

  example that could happen and how that [TS]

  might turn into a different sort of [TS]

  story in your head as a child thinking [TS]

  about it that are very different from [TS]

  the perspective of being an adult which [TS]

  is why you know when we sort of lead [TS]

  into the book it starts with the adult [TS]

  and then regreses back to the kid for it [TS]

  so I I thought that was very interesting [TS]

  very [TS]

  all done because it when you are kid all [TS]

  that stuff is so real to you like I mean [TS]

  being a kid you know if the idea of like [TS]

  a monster under your bed or something [TS]

  like that right like that is that is [TS]

  real tangible thing to you as a child in [TS]

  a way that doesn't really make sense [TS]

  into even looking back from an adult [TS]

  like oh how could I have even believe [TS]

  that but at the time it doesn't matter [TS]

  right like it's true as far as you're [TS]

  concerned because it has an effect on [TS]

  you so I think he's great at capturing [TS]

  that element of you know how real and [TS]

  visceral these things feel as a child [TS]

  and just the idea of the unexplained [TS]

  should we fire off the spoiler horn and [TS]

  talk about this a little more detail [TS]

  go for it [TS]

  right now I had so let me let me visit I [TS]

  was just saying it but in like concrete [TS]

  terms okay yeah i'm laying on me so you [TS]

  know we have to deal with the the fact [TS]

  that this this this kid basically she's [TS]

  like a dead body right like that's the [TS]

  first sort of major thing that happens [TS]

  in the book I feel like I mean and else [TS]

  is a really horrific i mean like the [TS]

  thing before before there's before [TS]

  there's real magic right there is he [TS]

  sees the well [TS]

  oh yeah you're right though damn i mean [TS]

  first off they may kill his kitten [TS]

  yeah that God man attacks the cab driver [TS]

  comes up and kills his kitten the new [TS]

  larger it's like what got you a new cat [TS]

  had like a million evil cat right now [TS]

  cat and his little black kitten honest [TS]

  with you mind that that's so sad because [TS]

  as I grew I grew up with cats and we [TS]

  were right on the highway and the cats [TS]

  didn't last very long i have I I cannot [TS]

  tell you how many kind of forward of [TS]

  things in my childhood I can mark by the [TS]

  death of an animal like that that might [TS]

  you know my cats that when they were hit [TS]

  by a car on the highway just awful and [TS]

  so that really hit home and that's [TS]

  before even the larger and kills himself [TS]

  out by the end of the lane right well [TS]

  and that to me that element i mean i [TS]

  didn't i did not have pets going up and [TS]

  the closest I got was like a friend of [TS]

  mine got a cat like a kitten and his mom [TS]

  was like oh well you know like you don't [TS]

  get to have a cat like a parent watching [TS]

  very carefully you can like have like [TS]

  part-owner so you can like come over and [TS]

  visit the cat and like and then they had [TS]

  to put the cat to sleep like two weeks [TS]

  later because I always and I was like [TS]

  three probably a really good thing that [TS]

  I didn't have a cat because that would [TS]

  just like broken me as a child but like [TS]

  but your he writes about it so so [TS]

  pointedly that you can't help that [TS]

  something was like I couldn't help but [TS]

  feel like this happened like it out real [TS]

  but it's almost rolled dollars yeah wait [TS]

  for me to where it's like you start the [TS]

  story and it's like here's a boy and he [TS]

  had a perfectly ordinary childhood and [TS]

  he had a cat and the cat was crushed by [TS]

  a cab driver because their parents had [TS]

  to rent out rooms because they're you [TS]

  know they they didn't have the money [TS]

  like wow whoa nobody came to his [TS]

  birthday party and nobody comes to a [TS]

  birthday party just him [TS]

  yeah very rolled all right i mean i [TS]

  always go back to change the gigantic [TS]

  that's it that's it that's it [TS]

  informative book for me [TS]

  and.and I read some of these books and [TS]

  every time i get there i get a little [TS]

  sensitive and sponge and spiker and I [TS]

  gah it's doing that and then their [TS]

  parents were eating at the zoo and admit [TS]

  I got some of that from the ocean at the [TS]

  end of the line and you know he has to [TS]

  give up his bedroom [TS]

  it's not just oh yeah he has to give up [TS]

  the bedroom that was especially you know [TS]

  to get the washbasin just his job for [TS]

  him sleep and sleep in his sister's room [TS]

  blue we see what I'm saying like in [TS]

  terms of like the effects of something [TS]

  that's real like so you know you feel [TS]

  like with the dead body and then later [TS]

  on there's in the other and i know this [TS]

  is skipping around a little bit like the [TS]

  the antagonist of the book Ursula [TS]

  Monkton moncton like you know so she [TS]

  basically like his father basically has [TS]

  an affair with her right like you can [TS]

  almost see that as like in a real world [TS]

  event that was viewed through the life [TS]

  of a child she must be a monster because [TS]

  she came in and broke up my family right [TS]

  like and and that's the the line that it [TS]

  walks that makes this so powerful for me [TS]

  is like you know obviously not [TS]

  everything is something that can be [TS]

  explained rationally in this in this [TS]

  story but there are like little touch [TS]

  points of that where that line is very [TS]

  permeable for children right the line [TS]

  between reality and fantasy and [TS]

  imagination and and I think that's he [TS]

  does such a great job of capturing what [TS]

  it's like to be a small child who has [TS]

  that imagination especially because I [TS]

  don't you guys but like identified with [TS]

  him in terms of like you talk about him [TS]

  read books all the time write like that [TS]

  was me like growing up like I read books [TS]

  like all the time I had my nose in a [TS]

  book all the time and that's and that's [TS]

  definitely how I felt at that point [TS]

  about like the imagining all these [TS]

  adventures and stories and great things [TS]

  that I could go off and be doing and and [TS]

  that is why it's such a such a great [TS]

  piece of work in in terms of bringing [TS]

  this character to life and that was to [TS]

  call back to an earlier point that I [TS]

  said about my cousin mention this book [TS]

  to me he said he he explained he was [TS]

  telling a friend about the book is like [TS]

  I really love this book about this boy [TS]

  you know and he has this interesting [TS]

  experience as a kid and he goes through [TS]

  some of it and his friend estimate its [TS]

  voice name and he suddenly stopped and [TS]

  realizes right action [TS]

  wait hold on you never told us they like [TS]

  and that's like but I didn't realize it [TS]

  until I was [TS]

  really acts asked about it like it [TS]

  didn't register in my in my mind that [TS]

  were never told what his name is right I [TS]

  that's amazing [TS]

  the framing sequence of this book to is [TS]

  that he's in town for a funeral [TS]

  I kind of assumed it's a funeral of one [TS]

  of his parents as well now although it's [TS]

  never made clear who [TS]

  yeah uh which i think i kinda like and [TS]

  given what we see about his parents and [TS]

  and how Ursula Monkton and you know [TS]

  basically inserts herself in this family [TS]

  and you know have sex with the father [TS]

  and and the and the narrator sees that [TS]

  there's something going on there and you [TS]

  could on one level blade say well it was [TS]

  magic it's not his fault but what is [TS]

  Ursula Monkton story she she wants [TS]

  everybody to be happy [TS]

  these horrible things that she does are [TS]

  all actually trying to give people kind [TS]

  of what they want which is even more [TS]

  horrible but then so this family that's [TS]

  had all this stuff i mean when we see [TS]

  the framing sequence we're seeing that [TS]

  he's an adult now and so presumably one [TS]

  of his parents has died and he's [TS]

  avoiding going to the reception have to [TS]

  the after the bear held by instead going [TS]

  to this this house at the end of the [TS]

  lane then and then we find out that he's [TS]

  gone there will be several times really [TS]

  his life but never remembers which is I [TS]

  mean I literally I this never used to [TS]

  happen to me I used to be you know stoic [TS]

  right [TS]

  all my life I mean I credits me come [TS]

  home when I was seven I cried at the end [TS]

  of Wrath of Khan and we're not even when [TS]

  Spock dies it's when Kirk's voice goes [TS]

  his was the most here right yeah it's [TS]

  just okay i'm done right [TS]

  yeah and and I cried when they did the [TS]

  memorial special after Jim Henson passed [TS]

  away and that you know they do the big [TS]

  song at the end of just one person [TS]

  believes in you long enough and strong [TS]

  enough to call God you know you know but [TS]

  aside from that nothing nothing got me [TS]

  Bambi nothing Old Yeller dog bad i just [TS]

  i right [TS]

  but just I'm sorry thanks them any sense [TS]

  more editing work for me them also use [TS]

  it wasn't me [TS]

  usually I'm worried about that but yeah [TS]

  after I had children I think was we had [TS]

  the first one for a couple months and I [TS]

  just needed something to read because [TS]

  you know I hadn't read books in awhile [TS]

  this year it's just baby baby baby oh [TS]

  baby and i read this Batman no man's [TS]

  land by gra├ža that's great I loved [TS]

  acting [TS]

  oh yeah and there's the adaptation of [TS]

  that arc in the graphic novels and it [TS]

  gets to the subplot where the Joker's [TS]

  kidnapped all the newborn baby boys in [TS]

  Gotham and is going to kill them one by [TS]

  one and I'm sitting there just tears [TS]

  pouring down my face and going this is a [TS]

  bad man novel what is wrong with me [TS]

  right [TS]

  and ever since then I much more [TS]

  sensitive to things like that and the [TS]

  end of this book i read the last two [TS]

  chapters with tears just pouring down my [TS]

  face not you know I'm not having [TS]

  hysterics may be quiet but just I [TS]

  couldn't stop and you know then it was [TS]

  just sort of like I described last night [TS]

  as the this sort of full chest feeling [TS]

  of sorrow and joy and redemption and [TS]

  sadness and you know just all-in-one and [TS]

  you know the thought that you know it's [TS]

  almost it's almost going back to wrinkle [TS]

  in time it's as if Charles Wallace [TS]

  didn't come back and saved the rest of [TS]

  them if that makes sense [TS]

  Yeah right right yes yeah it you're [TS]

  right because it's that sacrifice of the [TS]

  one who spoons special and has the most [TS]

  special talent to save everybody else in [TS]

  this case to save the unnamed narrator [TS]

  and you know so so having that echoing [TS]

  for me was kinda weird to like oh my god [TS]

  i was thinking of Florida rings during [TS]

  when when they explain what's happening [TS]

  with letty at the end of this book where [TS]

  she's been attacked and [TS]

  is dying and I I think it's the you know [TS]

  it's so see metaphors there in the ocean [TS]

  they're going off and the seabed might [TS]

  be back but the the ocean is the [TS]

  universe right it looks like you you [TS]

  don't recognize her when she comes back [TS]

  if she comes back i just love the the [TS]

  one line that i felt like i should have [TS]

  important i was reading this in [TS]

  hardcover so it's harder to highlight [TS]

  things but the one that I remembered was [TS]

  that the the narrator asks her at one [TS]

  point he says but how old are you [TS]

  she says 11 he says how long have you [TS]

  been 11 [TS]

  yeah what a great line the light falls [TS]

  on [TS]

  yes that that's a sense for a long time [TS]

  yeah so i mean her little brother is [TS]

  jeff t yeah well see that's I I felt [TS]

  like Ray Bradbury but i also got a lot [TS]

  of Harlan Ellison in this well Neil [TS]

  Gaiman I mean this is his yeah right i [TS]

  mean it's that it's that it's magical [TS]

  but it's it's it's not grounded [TS]

  yeah exactly right it's grounded yeah in [TS]

  a way that a lot of the the Harlan [TS]

  Ellison stuff is and I mean that's why [TS]

  Neil Gaiman Harlan also know i mean i [TS]

  think you know know each other pretty [TS]

  well and I mean but here they are very [TS]

  similar in in some ways and very [TS]

  different mothers [TS]

  even Neil Gaiman seems very gentle and [TS]

  not but up although i will take as i [TS]

  mentioned that one seal i was reading [TS]

  this out on the docket our lake and uh I [TS]

  got to the bathtub scene and so the [TS]

  scene in which his father basically [TS]

  tries to drown trying to drown him yeah [TS]

  and I finished reading that and I close [TS]

  the book and just sort of give a visit [TS]

  like a audible like you know I had to [TS]

  stop at that was like the end of my [TS]

  first sort of you know sitting reading [TS]

  it because it's just I could I needed to [TS]

  breathe after that right like it was so [TS]

  well done and so affecting of you know [TS]

  why I can imagine it right but like you [TS]

  know the idea of your father trying to [TS]

  drown you like it is terrifying and but [TS]

  you know that that element of being a [TS]

  kid and being not having control right [TS]

  and not having and something has entered [TS]

  your world and it's change your world [TS]

  and you don't like what's happened right [TS]

  fundamentally that's what Ursula Monkton [TS]

  is that she's invested their house but [TS]

  she's she's causing change and it's [TS]

  changed that the about this boy you know [TS]

  for lots of good reasons doesn't like [TS]

  but you can see the the metaphor there [TS]

  yeah absolutely i just did but it's just [TS]

  it was so affecting i had to put it on [TS]

  ya and that almost never happens to me I [TS]

  almost always you know so like yeah I've [TS]

  more stoic probably the day it's park [TS]

  yeah but like that but no idea that was [TS]

  it was a visceral like I need to set [TS]

  this aside for you know what our two [TS]

  before I can go back to reading it [TS]

  because that just that was that was [TS]

  pretty brutal [TS]

  so can I talk about cats [TS]

  we'll just we'll just turn around and [TS]

  you guys I'm not even about this book [TS]

  looks just like cats you know if they're [TS]

  so soft and no in there are some their [TS]

  cats in this book and it and it's not [TS]

  just the poor kitten and the mean cat [TS]

  that's the replacement for his poor kid [TS]

  2010 Fresh perplex the field but they've [TS]

  got the they've got the the this kitten [TS]

  that they find in the other you know [TS]

  fairy world basically where they go and [TS]

  it comes back with them and it's just [TS]

  kind of flips around in between and in [TS]

  and it looks a lot like this kid many [TS]

  have the died it's another black kitten [TS]

  and it appears at various points and out [TS]

  at one point at the end I think there's [TS]

  a statement about him [TS]

  him bringing back a kitten at some point [TS]

  is gonna get his childhood and I just I [TS]

  I don't have a whole like deep meaning [TS]

  of what the kitten is other than then I [TS]

  really liked that there's this idea [TS]

  first off that there was this cat that [TS]

  was special to him and then the [TS]

  replacement was not acceptable and then [TS]

  also that cats are are these kind of [TS]

  mysterious and semi magical creatures [TS]

  and they there they don't even come from [TS]

  where you think they come from they come [TS]

  from this other land where they just [TS]

  kind of appear and and i I just I [TS]

  enjoyed that because it was just this [TS]

  element that is that recurs that was fun [TS]

  and and I as a as a boy you know when I [TS]

  was a boy I really liked cats and we had [TS]

  we had cats out you know because I grew [TS]

  up in the country and we have less [TS]

  outside cats and so that so that really [TS]

  resonated with me that this is a boy [TS]

  who's growing up and he has this cat and [TS]

  then and then the cats kind of recur [TS]

  which is just [TS]

  it's such a funny little thing we didn't [TS]

  have spawned the way accounts we had an [TS]

  ocean ocean we had three cats at any [TS]

  given time all through my childhood and [TS]

  and we and we were kinda out in the [TS]

  country in Florida but after after i [TS]

  left Florida didn't have cats until I [TS]

  got married and moved out here because [TS]

  my wife was are always a dog person and [TS]

  then we accidentally became cat owners [TS]

  and she just fell lock stock and barrel [TS]

  for cats and now we have three cats go [TS]

  figure [TS]

  so it's sort of like it was the same [TS]

  kind of thing for me was like they're [TS]

  very comforting essence and I like me [TS]

  back my childhood and I like the idea to [TS]

  the cats are they are you know these [TS]

  particular Creek particularly or unworld [TS]

  otherworldly let's say creatures that's [TS]

  that works in fact that we have some [TS]

  magical kind of strange they come and go [TS]

  where do they go we don't know [TS]

  yeah you suddenly just reminded me in i [TS]

  believe in terry pratchett swirled cats [TS]

  can see the colour of magic like [TS]

  naturally with humans can see which is [TS]

  interesting interesting to me because of [TS]

  course Terry Pratchett neil gaiman also [TS]

  friends and collaborators [TS]

  yeah but there is there is definitely [TS]

  that you're totally right about that [TS]

  there is something about the cats that [TS]

  like like children is that that wine is [TS]

  permeable for them what it's amazing to [TS]

  watch them in and if you want the long [TS]

  enough to see them looking at things and [TS]

  you can't you have no idea what they're [TS]

  looking at you are they looking at dust [TS]

  motes floating in sunlight [TS]

  I don't know but there's nothing there [TS]

  there's nothing on the wall [TS]

  what are you doing there reading your [TS]

  soul there can't reaches up and slaps [TS]

  the wall and you go okay magic if you're [TS]

  just tuning in this is the cat fanciers [TS]

  episode of and council podcast it's the [TS]

  cast now it's a podcast about it's a pod [TS]

  cat my cat cats for cats there cats [TS]

  funny cats listen to podcasts [TS]

  you'd be surprised and probably will [TS]

  need to press well most cats don't but [TS]

  those who have jobs and have to drive a [TS]

  car to ease you into my award-winning [TS]

  short story the cat who listen to [TS]

  podcasts [TS]

  no what award did that win that one cat [TS]

  fancy podcast of the year award that [TS]

  related word I knew it I knew it has [TS]

  asked cats a script by name [TS]

  alright it's time for this week's [TS]

  incomparable sponsor this week sponsors [TS]

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  Hostgator for sponsoring the [TS]

  incomparable so one of the other things [TS]

  I mean there's the there's there's a lot [TS]

  in this you know less than 200 pages i [TS]

  like the scene where they wear Letty [TS]

  forms [TS]

  the circle draws the circle which is a [TS]

  no-good magic kind of thing to do and [TS]

  tells the boy stay in here and you know [TS]

  he learned his lesson right that when [TS]

  she said always hold my hand and he lets [TS]

  go for a minute and you know which worm [TS]

  thing goes into his foot [TS]

  i wiii i did you know that was great [TS]

  about because i was reading through that [TS]

  and I was thinking that that seems that [TS]

  same scene i was thinking there's going [TS]

  to be the point where the monsters show [TS]

  up as Letty and try to convince him to [TS]

  go out of the circle [TS]

  I want him to be smart enough not to [TS]

  fall for that and he doesn't and i was [TS]

  so happy about that because I'm like if [TS]

  i can think of it this boy can think of [TS]

  it right like he's a smart kid we've [TS]

  learned that like he's made mistakes but [TS]

  like he's in you know he sort of has [TS]

  bought into the world and understands [TS]

  kind of how things are working now and [TS]

  so I liked that he he didn't leave the [TS]

  circle because that is like a lot of [TS]

  books that would have been like all [TS]

  right now we're off on another set of [TS]

  adventures but in this one like he [TS]

  learned his lesson [TS]

  another good lesson you learned his [TS]

  lesson i just read i was just reading [TS]

  them send Sandman preludes nocturnes and [TS]

  apparently key scene there were a circle [TS]

  is accidentally don't break those [TS]

  circles broken open and that it's bad [TS]

  things for the people who broke breaker [TS]

  the circle circle stream is on the [TS]

  inside now we can get out but here this [TS]

  is this is his he learned he he made the [TS]

  mistake of letting go of her hand at the [TS]

  beginning and here he knows that he [TS]

  needs to sit there but what's tough [TS]

  about that situation what's so [TS]

  interesting about in the dark outside [TS]

  the house is that he has to be alone and [TS]

  he can't make them go away all he can do [TS]

  is sit there and take it and so he's [TS]

  visited and he has to sit there and take [TS]

  it and he has to sit and take his [TS]

  temptations and abuse and he end and the [TS]

  sort of dashing of his hopes and he has [TS]

  to just sit there he learned his lesson [TS]

  and so he does and that's what saved his [TS]

  life and and one of the things that [TS]

  school is you know like when his father [TS]

  comes out and his sister comes out you [TS]

  don't know if those are really them but [TS]

  it could be right because they could [TS]

  come out and be like why are you out [TS]

  here in the backyard [TS]

  yeah yeah I was that was it or was it or [TS]

  was it who knows because they could have [TS]

  been under the under the spell of evil [TS]

  Ursula Monkton to the house the whole [TS]

  thing where the house [TS]

  just in the house is a threat and you [TS]

  know nobody believes the whole thing [TS]

  where the mother doesn't believe him and [TS]

  his sister doesn't believe him and and [TS]

  that was again I was having those and [TS]

  sponge and spyker kind of moments of [TS]

  just like this poor oh this poor kid he [TS]

  knows the truth but nobody will believe [TS]

  him and it's just so you know it it it's [TS]

  a classic thing but it's just it was so [TS]

  well done i gotta say I really loved [TS]

  there are some funny points too [TS]

  surprisingly the cart they got me [TS]

  actually made me laugh out loud was the [TS]

  scene where his parents come to collect [TS]

  them from the have stocks and this [TS]

  imagine your toothbrush [TS]

  he's like picturing and picturing it and [TS]

  I'm like what does have to do and then [TS]

  they kind of distract you and then like [TS]

  they pull out the and you put thanks for [TS]

  bringing his toothbrush and like the [TS]

  father kind of puzzle bleep rope pulls [TS]

  the truth project this pocket I was like [TS]

  that's a mitt like you such a good job [TS]

  of the misdirection in the Senate [TS]

  everything there i laughed out loud at [TS]

  the ohio i guess i have his toothbrush [TS]

  in my pockets like is I see what you did [TS]

  there and that's and that's interesting [TS]

  magic because it doesn't play on are all [TS]

  the things we know about magic instead [TS]

  they're like stitching together like [TS]

  reading reality it's so mundane is not [TS]

  known which is hilarious [TS]

  yeah they're just doing their work and I [TS]

  ki think I can do this I can put this [TS]

  together and they're reading the fabric [TS]

  of reality but they're not casting [TS]

  spells or anything at some point he says [TS]

  are you [TS]

  you know gonna do a spell or something [TS]

  or like something else like that no we [TS]

  don't do that but they they do succeed [TS]

  in changing the parents memories and and [TS]

  and making the toothbrush like appear or [TS]

  retro actively be brought or whatever [TS]

  right [TS]

  this result like a doctor who moment [TS]

  there yeah oh yeah one I love the moment [TS]

  where he's being chased by the vultures [TS]

  of the void and that you know they start [TS]

  to attack and then it goes into [TS]

  parentheses and italics where he feels [TS]

  the sensation of dying he feels the [TS]

  sensation of the culture ripping his [TS]

  heart out [TS]

  oh yeah and and then oh yeah and then [TS]

  all of a sudden it's nip and [TS]

  everything's the seams came together and [TS]

  suddenly he's fine and let is on top of [TS]

  him and he set that up so beautifully by [TS]

  doing the earlier thing of talking about [TS]

  how they stitched together things and [TS]

  snip here and snip there and put it back [TS]

  together almost like a film [TS]

  and but he doesn't make a big deal of it [TS]

  in that moment it's just you have to [TS]

  remember that right but afterward they [TS]

  make it clear that they basically went [TS]

  back and fixed it so he didn't get torn [TS]

  up into little pieces [TS]

  yeah but it's so beautiful gasps oh I'm [TS]

  and part of the reason i love this and [TS]

  I'll say this is maybe my favorite thing [TS]

  of his I've ever read [TS]

  um because I I like bits and pieces of [TS]

  american gods but I don't like american [TS]

  gods [TS]

  it's just too long and and I like a [TS]

  Nancy boys but and i love the graveyard [TS]

  book um but this is just the right [TS]

  length it it really couldn't be shorter [TS]

  but it really couldn't be longer and I [TS]

  mean there's no padding there's no fat [TS]

  in this book it's just everything is [TS]

  right there and it's done and it's just [TS]

  beautiful [TS]

  oh yeah I don't know I've read [TS]

  everything I was looking through the [TS]

  front of the book where has the also by [TS]

  Neil Gaiman list I've read everything in [TS]

  that list is the for adults and i have [TS]

  read many of the things in the for all [TS]

  ages they're not most of the illustrated [TS]

  stuff honestly and I've red Sandman [TS]

  which is salmon may still be my favorite [TS]

  because i like those long epic things [TS]

  and Sandman is is amazing in terms of [TS]

  its ability to weave all these men you [TS]

  know huge amounts of genres together and [TS]

  it's so varied and so amazing and there [TS]

  are there are episodes there are issues [TS]

  of that than my mind are almost like [TS]

  almost a perfect almost a perfect story [TS]

  in my regards [TS]

  so I will but I i love this as well and [TS]

  I I like almost everything he's written [TS]

  i have enjoyed almost everything that [TS]

  he's written some of it I you know some [TS]

  of it sticks better than others in my [TS]

  head but I think he's amazing as an [TS]

  author I can turn one of those gushing [TS]

  podcast i know that's the people the [TS]

  people who like us to love things will [TS]

  love this episode the people who like us [TS]

  to tear things apart will be very sad [TS]

  I i did not like American my love I left [TS]

  American Gods I like tonight is great i [TS]

  I didn't think I like well it wasn't too [TS]

  long there was two there were probably [TS]

  some chapters in there that weren't [TS]

  necessary that's problem [TS]

  true but I liked it a lot i I really [TS]

  enjoyed that I just read never where I [TS]

  like never wear and I liked it is fun [TS]

  IIF I read it I haven't seen the TV the [TS]

  TV mini-series this we definitely has [TS]

  aged poorly well so there's things that [TS]

  are great about it and there are things [TS]

  that are weird about it and it [TS]

  definitely is low budget and what was [TS]

  odd about never wears the stories that [TS]

  started as the TV [TS]

  yeah and then he injected into a novel [TS]

  which is very odd but some of the [TS]

  performances in there are fantastic the [TS]

  guy who plays the Marquis is great and [TS]

  that that will that I think that 10 so [TS]

  yeah [TS]

  Harrison Joseph was great in that he's [TS]

  fantastic was rumored at one point to be [TS]

  a doctor in the lander eleventh Doctor [TS]

  contender and of course islington the [TS]

  angel is Peter Capaldi yes in radio [TS]

  adaptation they did this year [TS]

  benedict cumberbatch andy him mrs. [TS]

  Lincoln yeah I mean listen I had not [TS]

  listened to that but I i really i love [TS]

  the book I thought he does it again that [TS]

  is such an interesting because it that's [TS]

  really about the permeation between the [TS]

  lines of reality and fantasy right like [TS]

  very very strongly delineating there and [TS]

  that's kind of weird game and lives [TS]

  right like that's his that's his wheel [TS]

  her but that was also every having read [TS]

  them in the reverse of how when they [TS]

  were written i also have enjoyed the [TS]

  city in the city [TS]

  china mieville kind of feeling with a [TS]

  with me everywhere because it's that and [TS]

  I know that there are others navel [TS]

  drawing a book called on London they're [TS]

  a bunch of urban fantasy books that play [TS]

  this trope now but it's almost like you [TS]

  know game and got there a little while [TS]

  before this latest wave with never wear [TS]

  where it is the there's the London you [TS]

  know and then there's the magical London [TS]

  that's living you know underground [TS]

  mostly but just you know in parallel [TS]

  with what's happening on the what we [TS]

  regular people think of us as London and [TS]

  uh yeah i like i like it a lot is Nancy [TS]

  boys is fine i always remember too well [TS]

  that the story of Anansi the spider was [TS]

  something that I really remember clearly [TS]

  learning in childhood [TS]

  yeah and so to see that and that's [TS]

  essentially you know spin-off of [TS]

  American Gods uh but and I liked it but [TS]

  I loved american gods and the graveyard [TS]

  book now that is a book that's just [TS]

  amazing that is a that [TS]

  is a great piece of work that might be [TS]

  that might be my favorite of his uh and [TS]

  and you know the fact that it's [TS]

  essentially a young adult book but and [TS]

  he front loads it with the worst part [TS]

  the murder happens at the very beginning [TS]

  and everything else after that it's not [TS]

  so bad it's not that murder that [TS]

  happened at the beginning where the kids [TS]

  parents get killed get stabbed by the [TS]

  guy with the big knife man after that [TS]

  it's just ghosts and friendly ghosts and [TS]

  yeah it's fine but that beginning you [TS]

  know that's a yeah he's had an [TS]

  interesting career has me he's got his [TS]

  screenplays and he's got his comics and [TS]

  he's got stories and he's got a young [TS]

  adult and juvenile fiction and then he's [TS]

  got adult fiction he is all over the [TS]

  place [TS]

  Miriam ask ya so imagine [TS]

  yeah they're so there's a lot there [TS]

  without i have good omens and I haven't [TS]

  read it that I would only ask you that [TS]

  that was the first real game and thing [TS]

  i've ever read because i was huge terry [TS]

  pratchett fans starting back in cheese I [TS]

  must have been like 10 or something i [TS]

  started reading terry pratchett and and [TS]

  somehow i came across that when I was [TS]

  like well there's this other guy right [TS]

  to terry pratchett maybe this will be [TS]

  good though and i actually have a my [TS]

  copy of that is autographed by both of [TS]

  them because i saw them in close [TS]

  succession you notice my old like [TS]

  dog-eared paperback of them but they it [TS]

  was it still feels cool to me they have [TS]

  like that I love that book it's just [TS]

  it's it's such a fascinating melange of [TS]

  the two writers out there but there's [TS]

  parts of that book that stick with me to [TS]

  this day even though i haven't read it [TS]

  in like 15-20 years probably but yeah [TS]

  and there's some line about like a guy [TS]

  with a is his wound from Nam was acting [TS]

  up and there's a footnote it's like he'd [TS]

  gone to be at nam and slipped in the [TS]

  shower or something like that but that's [TS]

  a very terry pratchett but like it's [TS]

  still like it was its just oh it's a [TS]

  lovely book about the apocalypse [TS]

  so yeah I again i'm a huge fan of of i [TS]

  have I think devoured almost everything [TS]

  that he's written at least four adults [TS]

  mostly young adults i have to the [TS]

  volumes of absolute sandman sitting on [TS]

  my bottom shelf and some day will come [TS]

  not a collection but those aren't cheap [TS]

  no they're not like a hundred bucks a [TS]

  shot well you feel you can figure out [TS]

  how to do it right you can get a little [TS]

  bit cheaper than that but still he asked [TS]

  they're expensive [TS]

  yeah but they're gorgeous it's the only [TS]

  tough part with them is like it's hard [TS]

  to read because it's like they're so big [TS]

  it's like the giant heart like you know [TS]

  10-pound hardcover books and you're like [TS]

  all right it's not exactly something [TS]

  like take on the train for like what [TS]

  yeah I've got the absolute watch men and [TS]

  it's the same thing is it's great but [TS]

  it's it in Norma's the coffee table 10 [TS]

  ya light light on the caption balancing [TS]

  on your chest and wake up just before it [TS]

  kills you when you fall it falls on your [TS]

  face [TS]

  actually yes that's basically it so what [TS]

  else what else to say about ocean at the [TS]

  end of the lane before we move on you [TS]

  have any any other the scene we didn't [TS]

  touch upon which i really like to my [TS]

  cousin actually was saying it was his [TS]

  favorite teen was the scene where they [TS]

  bring the ocean to him and he goes into [TS]

  the illusion right yeah that's that's [TS]

  that that's the premise of that I mean [TS]

  the story it's the title and it's the [TS]

  idea that she calls it upon our notion [TS]

  even though it's just a pond and then we [TS]

  you know we we finally see we get the [TS]

  payoff of you know that had just how [TS]

  this thing is an ocean when he's he's in [TS]

  it and he has to go in there there are [TS]

  they going to put a minute to protect [TS]

  him [TS]

  yeah yeah yeah yeah and he but he can [TS]

  see and he knows everything in the [TS]

  universe right yeah but if he was going [TS]

  to stay there [TS]

  the longer he would stay there the more [TS]

  diffuse he would become until he was no [TS]

  longer a person or being or a an [TS]

  intelligence who just be spread out [TS]

  yeah you can you can't know everything [TS]

  in the universe without just being the [TS]

  universe so you have to you'll you'll [TS]

  you know you like a little alka-seltzer [TS]

  pillage could get out of there is really [TS]

  just dissolve away and that and then of [TS]

  course that's what at what happens when [TS]

  a lady is you know she has to go off i [TS]

  like to that the the family came from [TS]

  across the ocean to the old country [TS]

  yeah so that that's that that that's a [TS]

  nice bit of mythology that if the ocean [TS]

  is essentially the universe that they [TS]

  are from somewhere else and I you know I [TS]

  without there's a lot of that just now [TS]

  touches where it's not overbearing and [TS]

  it's not full of detailed you know well [TS]

  we came from this place and all that [TS]

  it's just like they're from somewhere [TS]

  else you get it but if anybody needs any [TS]

  more than that [TS]

  what's wrong what's funny to me is that [TS]

  there's you know we're talking about [TS]

  your practice i can go and there's the [TS]

  old mrs. hemp stock character is very [TS]

  reminiscent to me of so there's there's [TS]

  a series of terry pratchett about these [TS]

  witches including a Granny Weatherwax [TS]

  was like the oldest of old witches and [TS]

  like there's not there's some there's [TS]

  something there with those two [TS]

  characters in some ways they're very [TS]

  similar very built from the same mold [TS]

  these like the wise old women who are [TS]

  kinda kinda Reverend at the same time [TS]

  kinda catchy but like you know clearly [TS]

  incredibly powerful and I think that's [TS]

  that there's interesting something in [TS]

  there and also the fact that you know so [TS]

  many of the characters someone mentioned [TS]

  so many it i think it's one of the [TS]

  blurbs here I thought that was [TS]

  interesting is someone comments and all [TS]

  thinking all the women are brilliant and [TS]

  I was like this is interesting that this [TS]

  is this is a book that that very much [TS]

  revolves around female characters [TS]

  despite the the antagonist being a boy [TS]

  but female characters certainly make up [TS]

  the ball I mean the only other male [TS]

  characters i can think of are the father [TS]

  and the Minor Roger yeah and yeah he [TS]

  doesn't last very long new but yeah and [TS]

  even the father who spends most of the [TS]

  book being sort of a pond of Ursula [TS]

  Monkton right so that's you know that's [TS]

  an element to he asks the narrator asks [TS]

  them about the about the women are made [TS]

  about the men are there are there men [TS]

  around there like why would we yes yes [TS]

  why we need them [TS]

  Willingham sometimes but they go away [TS]

  again we only need men to make more men [TS]

  yeah yeah I was there why would we want [TS]

  to do that and get point it know it [TS]

  struck me reading the acknowledgments we [TS]

  talked about how he wrote it and he goes [TS]

  into how each night he would read it [TS]

  aloud in bed to his wife and he he [TS]

  learned and discovered more about the [TS]

  words while he was reading them aloud [TS]

  and that had never happened to him [TS]

  before [TS]

  and I think that really comes through [TS]

  that's that's part of why it just sound [TS]

  you know it's yeah and I mean I do that [TS]

  all the time as a playwright because i'm [TS]

  writing for things to be spoken aloud [TS]

  and so it was really neat to see how [TS]

  this kind of shifted because it does [TS]

  feel different to me from some of his [TS]

  other novels and I don't know if that's [TS]

  it or if it's the just that the narrator [TS]

  is supposed to be a child but he's [TS]

  written from children's point of views [TS]

  before so that area is not child though [TS]

  the narrator is an adult for calling [TS]

  being right right right not like the [TS]

  same next write the same i don't know I [TS]

  i read a few chapters of one of my [TS]

  novels while we were my wife and I were [TS]

  driving back from LA to San Francisco [TS]

  and the car radio was broken and she had [TS]

  been reading this novel written so I [TS]

  just was reading chap the next chapters [TS]

  boy was that and I mean honestly time [TS]

  it's a humbling experience [TS]

  what an incredible thing to do because [TS]

  all of your weaknesses are laid bare [TS]

  when you read 11 I I once tried to [TS]

  record an audio book of one of my novels [TS]

  and like could not record the first [TS]

  chapter because i kept changing like no [TS]

  got that sounds terrible have to change [TS]

  that like and then you get to the point [TS]

  where it's like all right [TS]

  even this is gonna take a ton of editing [TS]

  oh I've gotta like go through read it [TS]

  all out change everything then go get [TS]

  back and reread it and recorded but then [TS]

  I'm probably just gonna find more stuff [TS]

  that i need to change but it does your [TS]

  words take on a totally different [TS]

  character when they're spoken aloud like [TS]

  the hay singh and that you mean you know [TS]

  this but like you know the pacing in the [TS]

  and where you take poz with them on the [TS]

  rhythm yeah and all this the sound [TS]

  yeah well one of the things I love i'll [TS]

  find a link to this for the show notes [TS]

  because it's it is a lot of fun to read [TS]

  Elmore Leonard has these ten rules of [TS]

  writing and I don't have them memorized [TS]

  but they're fantastic and there he is [TS]

  right i mean they work their one of them [TS]

  is you know nobody expressed relates [TS]

  they said just say I know I know he's [TS]

  got the central I've heard that one you [TS]

  know and they didn't say it explicitly [TS]

  they just said it [TS]

  you don't need your adverbs let the [TS]

  adverbs go you know and then when you [TS]

  need one [TS]

  it's there and it's effective because he [TS]

  does he use adverbs every now and then [TS]

  just not very much and it really helps [TS]

  with that rhythm and it really helps [TS]

  with you know because a lot of the [TS]

  things we add in to sound smart when [TS]

  we're writing he would never say out [TS]

  loud you know and and when you strip all [TS]

  those things away suddenly have [TS]

  something that just it sounds real one [TS]

  of the things that bugs me in reading [TS]

  dialog is when people address each other [TS]

  by names a lot and then like that always [TS]

  sounds fake to me yesterday and yes [TS]

  exactly convenient [TS]

  I know what yes Jason Jason I understand [TS]

  what you're saying Jason but Jason's I [TS]

  don't think you're fully thinking this [TS]

  through Jason I don't think i am and it [TS]

  feels weird for me just like I'm saying [TS]

  guy but like which is interesting when [TS]

  applied to this book where we have a [TS]

  character who never gets named right [TS]

  like that's kind of on the other end of [TS]

  the spectrum but it works right like [TS]

  it's at the hem stocks get named the ham [TS]

  stock Sanderson to get named the opal [TS]

  miner the father insisted the mother [TS]

  nobody else is only half sister doesn't [TS]

  have a name and it does she [TS]

  yeah not that's not even occur to me [TS]

  until writer that's amazing yeah like [TS]

  that singular way it doesn't it's not it [TS]

  doesn't bother me registers a lot of [TS]

  books in which you would be like what [TS]

  the heck is this guy's name already but [TS]

  like you know I haven't seen that that [TS]

  so effectively pulled off since fight [TS]

  club so the ocean at the end of the lane [TS]

  has already been optioned by Tom Hanks's [TS]

  production company play tone and then [TS]

  he'll make a great little boy [TS]

  yeah that's right to be great now the v [TS]

  well Tom Hanks's company which which [TS]

  obviously was one of the co-producers of [TS]

  like band of brothers and from the earth [TS]

  to the moon and they're making they're [TS]

  the ones who are making American Gods is [TS]

  an HBO series [TS]

  mhm and then they are also doing [TS]

  apparently for a feature a option to [TS]

  this so that's why i think a [TS]

  pre-existing relationship there I the [TS]

  the less the new story I've got on this [TS]

  is from februari so obviously there you [TS]

  know there's there's more purple an [TS]

  introduction and the options it's [TS]

  interesting options don't always mean [TS]

  that [TS]

  always filigree lights but that's [TS]

  interesting that the dead but that's [TS]

  where it is and yet you know again 200 [TS]

  less than 200 pages [TS]

  this is the kind of story that you do [TS]

  want to make a movie out of because you [TS]

  don't have to drop you know seventy [TS]

  percent of it in order to get online and [TS]

  Game of Thrones or flipping through the [TS]

  pages really fast like a harry potter [TS]

  book where it's like now just supposed [TS]

  to say then over here you know I've [TS]

  argued for years the that a short story [TS]

  makes a better movie than a novel right [TS]

  because a novel is kind of it and short [TS]

  story every word has to count movies are [TS]

  short stories you're exactly stories TV [TS]

  shows and movies TV shows novels example [TS]

  comic books [TS]

  yeah yeah movies are short stories and [TS]

  so adapting short stories are in this [TS]

  case it's a short novel makes a lot of [TS]

  sense and he's got another let and knew [TS]

  not the lie T and it's novel ish it's [TS]

  establish a novel is it novel is it new [TS]

  was their novelty little think there was [TS]

  a novelty of it yeah course it's novel [TS]

  ask its novel ask excellent well before [TS]

  before we go I want to ask you gentlemen [TS]

  the musical question that's not actually [TS]

  musical but i like to ask and whenever [TS]

  we talk about books which is what are [TS]

  you reading i'm kind of curious what [TS]

  other you look what are you reading [TS]

  oh yeah we should get lex friedman to do [TS]

  a jingle for what are you reading he [TS]

  would totally do that then we could play [TS]

  it because it would be we would want to [TS]

  listen to it but he would do it for us [TS]

  just imagine your head with nobody has [TS]

  to do it because then we'll have to play [TS]

  it [TS]

  I personal various it's it's nice [TS]

  because we read lots of things we did [TS]

  this was a short book i'm sure there Dan [TS]

  even mentioned that he had been reading [TS]

  another book before he started reading [TS]

  the ocean available and i started [TS]

  reading another book directly after [TS]

  finishing the ocean and you just tearing [TS]

  it up on vacation i tell you i'd like [TS]

  that especially when there's no internet [TS]

  i read like crazy [TS]

  yeah that's book it's booked this my [TS]

  family my family so we have this this my [TS]

  uncle's got this place in the finger [TS]

  lakes and there's no internet there in [TS]

  the very little cell signal it makes up [TS]

  made of it is haha my family which I [TS]

  mean is primarily made up of of [TS]

  librarians and a lot of teachers and we [TS]

  sit around and [TS]

  read a lot and my my cousin's husband [TS]

  once commented after like walking into a [TS]

  room with like six people reading books [TS]

  like man you must really drive your [TS]

  neighbors crazy with that sound of [TS]

  flipping pages then you can I come with [TS]

  you to finger like sometimes like the [TS]

  pacification it's pretty awesome but I'm [TS]

  not gonna lie it's great my god i love [TS]

  it's very quiet and then yeah so I'm so [TS]

  i finished you've been reading before [TS]

  that I finish the second book in been [TS]

  Aaron bitches rivers of London's here's [TS]

  your urban fantasy 7 london i was gonna [TS]

  drop his neighbor yes I read so I read [TS]

  the rivers of London which i think is [TS]

  marketed in the u.s. under a midnight [TS]

  riot which is kind of a not as good [TS]

  title in my opinion but I read the [TS]

  second book which is called moon over [TS]

  soho which I liked [TS]

  I like those books they're they're not [TS]

  they're not quite my favorite urban [TS]

  fantasy book remains the guy carries [TS]

  Felix caster series which is awesome and [TS]

  this is this is fun but like doesn't [TS]

  quite get up there for me i had been [TS]

  part of the Felix caster what makes [TS]

  those whose greatest they're basically [TS]

  such a tone perfect noir set in London [TS]

  acceptance imagine Philip Marlowe were [TS]

  an exorcist in London look it's just [TS]

  it's brilliant it's incredibly well done [TS]

  but these are still fun and they're kind [TS]

  of they deal with a young man who is a [TS]

  police constable and in his first book [TS]

  in the first book he encounters a ghost [TS]

  and then somehow gets recruited to work [TS]

  under the last sort of remaining wizard [TS]

  who works for the Metropolitan Police [TS]

  who is like a you know [TS]

  Detective Chief Inspector and so he's an [TS]

  apprentice wizard as everybody is also a [TS]

  police constable that's fun and then I [TS]

  picked up before i left about a [TS]

  paperback which had been a while I [TS]

  realized end up on a paperback book and [TS]

  so long that my ebooks have become my [TS]

  paperbacks I'll still buy occasionally [TS]

  books in hardcover like I bought the [TS]

  neil gaiman book hardcover but if I want [TS]

  some this kinda like the quick disposal [TS]

  read like i usually buy books but about [TS]

  a the back of the latest book in the in [TS]

  nyomi Novak's Temeraire series my book [TS]

  one of that [TS]

  yeah my simple the latest one is called [TS]

  crucible of gold about a dragon's [TS]

  halfway to two-thirds of the way through [TS]

  it probably I I read everything else in [TS]

  the series but it's been many years [TS]

  since i read the last one so i kind of [TS]

  like but it's it's it's pretty good in [TS]

  terms of the ability to sort of pick [TS]

  it up even years later and be like oh [TS]

  yeah I kind of remember who the main [TS]

  characters this are in she's quite a [TS]

  good writer and she does a great job of [TS]

  capturing that sort of the other CS [TS]

  forester Patrick O'Brien like elements [TS]

  of the the swashbuckling nautical tales [TS]

  but like she goes interesting places [TS]

  with those books which I didn't think [TS]

  that she would both quote-unquote [TS]

  literally in terms of like they spend a [TS]

  lot of time sort of globe-trotting as [TS]

  well as they could have been just sort [TS]

  of adventure fun series but she actually [TS]

  gets into some issues that i thought [TS]

  were really interesting in terms of like [TS]

  well these dragons are sentient em are [TS]

  they basically slaves like what's the [TS]

  deal with that so it gets a little more [TS]

  little more depth than I thought it [TS]

  would originally and so this is like the [TS]

  sixth book in the series i think the [TS]

  seventh one is coming out pretty soon so [TS]

  those are fun enjoy them all right well [TS]

  I've got the first one on my candle it's [TS]

  ready to go i had enough people [TS]

  recommended that i had to buy it [TS]

  David what a what have you been reading [TS]

  anything interesting [TS]

  well I've been reading been doing [TS]

  research for something that involves [TS]

  magic and magicians [TS]

  so what I'm not reading fiction reading [TS]

  this book called slights of mind which I [TS]

  know Lex Friedman has red actually [TS]

  because we've talked about it and it's [TS]

  about it's not just an optical illusion [TS]

  but it's how illusions work and how our [TS]

  minds try to rationalize them and [TS]

  especially how we know that a magic [TS]

  trick is a trick you know we know we're [TS]

  being distracted and yet we still go for [TS]

  it [TS]

  we still accept it why and so it's [TS]

  really interesting and it's it talks [TS]

  with Penn & Teller a lot and a couple of [TS]

  other magicians and pickpockets and so [TS]

  it's really fascinating research then on [TS]

  the fiction side I've got this book [TS]

  called summer and bird by Catherine [TS]

  Catmull which my friend who just read [TS]

  ocean as well he said if you really like [TS]

  the last two chapters of that [TS]

  try reading a book that's all that right [TS]

  oh my god you know it's a little more [TS]

  poetic it's a little more fantasy [TS]

  oriented than this necessarily but he [TS]

  claims it's very much in line [TS]

  that so I'm giving it a try and then [TS]

  I've got the last policeman by Ben [TS]

  winters sitting on my kindle which I i [TS]

  think it one mystery award actually but [TS]

  it's about a cop in it it's a [TS]

  pre-apocalyptic story where they all [TS]

  yeah there's like this this asteroid [TS]

  coming that they know is going to hit [TS]

  the earth and destroy it and so all [TS]

  these people have you know quit their [TS]

  jobs and they're going off to do [TS]

  whatever they want in the last few [TS]

  months before it hits and there's a [TS]

  murder and this is his chance to step up [TS]

  and be a policeman to be a real [TS]

  detective instead of just a policeman so [TS]

  he goes and tries to solve this murder [TS]

  and it's the first of a trilogy and the [TS]

  second one just came out apparently and [TS]

  so again I've had you know like five or [TS]

  six people including scott McNulty hated [TS]

  the first one was very good and I was [TS]

  like all right i'll give it a try i read [TS]

  accelerometer by charles stross which I [TS]

  really liked and charles stross is funny [TS]

  because some of his stuff i really like [TS]

  and some of the stuff leaves me kinda [TS]

  cold his his halting state series that [TS]

  set in the near future in Scotland an [TS]

  independent Scotland as part of the EU [TS]

  they're fine they don't really thrill me [TS]

  I like Saturn's children which is his [TS]

  wild sex pot takes a grand tour of the [TS]

  solar system novel that was nominated [TS]

  for Hugo accelerant oh I really liked it [TS]

  so it's a little bit older [TS]

  that's one of his more well-regarded [TS]

  like that sort of one of his flagship [TS]

  novel yeah it's really good i guess [TS]

  published 2006 it does feel a little bit [TS]

  the first few chapters he's doing a lot [TS]

  of jargon that is recognizable uh that [TS]

  that is cultural references and now [TS]

  they're a little bit dated there seven [TS]

  years dated uh but but as you might have [TS]

  set it as you might guess from the title [TS]

  things accelerate rapidly and you leave [TS]

  the the weakest chapters that are set in [TS]

  the near very near future behind and it [TS]

  gets increasingly weird as it goes and [TS]

  it tries to portray in a way that vernor [TS]

  vinge e and a bunch of other writers [TS]

  who've tried to [TS]

  about the singularity when when [TS]

  acceleration of human growth is a [TS]

  exponential and it's like you could be [TS]

  humans won't even be able to understand [TS]

  it will be things will be advancing so [TS]

  fast and and so if you can portray that [TS]

  you're like all right i mean like one of [TS]

  my favorite veggie novels he basically [TS]

  just everybody ahead in time a hundred [TS]

  years and there's nobody left in my cup [TS]

  the singularity must happen to well and [TS]

  then continue on right so in [TS]

  acceleration dos tres actually like [TS]

  shows you tries to show you what the [TS]

  singularity would be like if you're a [TS]

  person who was living through it and I [TS]

  think he does a pretty good job it's not [TS]

  I mean it's not perfect because it's a [TS]

  very difficult concept he does have a [TS]

  little bit of a plot to string you along [TS]

  as well it does a lot of the same things [TS]

  that I I sort of feel like Kim Stanley [TS]

  Robinson was trying to do in his Hugo [TS]

  nominated 2312 but what I really liked [TS]

  about a XL Rondo and people i know who [TS]

  listened to our Hugo cast know that I [TS]

  didn't really like 2312 I don't like [TS]

  accelerometer did all sorts of things [TS]

  that that Kim Stanley Robinson just [TS]

  failed to do with 2312 that for a guy [TS]

  who gets tagged a lot of times as being [TS]

  a strong as being a guy who's a you know [TS]

  tech guy and he's more interested in a [TS]

  lot of the technology stuff than the [TS]

  than the people i think that's one of [TS]

  the I i think that might be a knock on [TS]

  him is that is that he doesn't always [TS]

  have these his character healing Karen [TS]

  have these his character healing Karen [TS]

  that's right but and yet in Excel Rondo [TS]

  like people are people in the future and [TS]

  they have passions and they have loves [TS]

  and there's there's even in these women [TS]

  there is a scenic accelerometer where [TS]

  there's an entire culture that is [TS]

  running in a in a virtual reality [TS]

  simulation on a little chip that's in a [TS]

  spaceship the size of a soda can that's [TS]

  half way to Alpha Centauri on a giant [TS]

  solar sail and yet there is still petty [TS]

  human jealousy and misunderstandings and [TS]

  all sorts of things happening in the [TS]

  virtual reality in the soda-can because [TS]

  people are people and i like that that [TS]

  he you can you can talk about the future [TS]

  and completely indescribable social [TS]

  change and technological change and [TS]

  still have a novel with a real beating [TS]

  human heart which accelerometer I think [TS]

  house so I liked it and it's it is weird [TS]

  but but I think good weird so I like [TS]

  that and then the other one I would [TS]

  mention is i'm reading roger ebert's [TS]

  memoir life itself [TS]

  he is a good he is a really good writer [TS]

  speaking of people who are good writers [TS]

  and a lot of that was in blog form and [TS]

  various points on his site and but [TS]

  there's also a lot of original material [TS]

  and it's all put together it's not like [TS]

  a collection of blog post is written in [TS]

  chapters about his life and it's [TS]

  fascinating because it even as just a [TS]

  portrait of a an American from the [TS]

  Midwest in the middle you know from the [TS]

  middle of the 20th century and looking [TS]

  at that and then looking at sort of the [TS]

  height of newspaper journalism and I [TS]

  it's a fascinating read by a guy who is [TS]

  really you know a really good writer and [TS]

  you know it's funny we talk about a lot [TS]

  of books on this podcast the thing that [TS]

  strikes me more than anything else [TS]

  within the characters more than the [TS]

  story more than the plots is if you get [TS]

  somebody who can write who like has a [TS]

  has a great style and tone I'll follow [TS]

  them almost anywhere because those [TS]

  people are not that easy to find [TS]

  yeah we were saying sometimes you follow [TS]

  along with a writer because it'll be [TS]

  like you like two plots you like their [TS]

  characters you like their sense of humor [TS]

  and then there are those writers that [TS]

  you think they just got it and I Roger [TS]

  Ebert of all you know people we think of [TS]

  him as the two thumbs up you know movie [TS]

  critic [TS]

  he is such a great writer and in some [TS]

  ways I think we didn't realize it until [TS]

  or most people didn't realize it until [TS]

  he started blogging after he lost his [TS]

  voice anyway great fun and that's why [TS]

  when we were in the Midwest we went to [TS]

  steak and shake because inside it must [TS]

  be right and I'm California I've never [TS]

  been to a snake and check before but we [TS]

  went because of roger ebert so there [TS]

  don't ya [TS]

  now we have a burger city that's sitting [TS]

  on my kindle right now and drank it's [TS]

  good it's good i mean i read it i was [TS]

  reading bits because you can just sort [TS]

  of read a few chapters and co-read novel [TS]

  and then come back and read a few more [TS]

  chapters and it's enjoyable [TS]

  alright I think we got to the end at to [TS]

  the ocean at the end of the lane at the [TS]

  pot and the podcast have probably been [TS]

  here before so many times do that I'm [TS]

  not cast about but we don't remember it [TS]

  yeah oh no it's good it's a book which [TS]

  will find a book [TS]

  yeah in the ocean at the end of the lane [TS]

  at the end of the pot the Monster at the [TS]

  End of the whole monster line the vast [TS]

  ocean at the end of the lane at the end [TS]

  of it I guess I'm very confused man [TS]

  alright well this was fun and I guess I [TS]

  guess we had to summarize that we would [TS]

  say we let we really liked it perhaps [TS]

  even loved neil gaiman the ocean at the [TS]

  end of the lane got a lot of hype he's a [TS]

  very well-known author guess what [TS]

  it's good he's a good writer that's why [TS]

  he's well known that because the hype [TS]

  not because of marketing it's because [TS]

  these are really good at it right [TS]

  that's about right you yet in a nutshell [TS]

  alright excellent well that's it for [TS]

  this edition of the uncomfortable and I [TS]

  want to thank my guests my my two guests [TS]

  who excellently went through neil gaiman [TS]

  and the ocean at the end of the lane Dan [TS]

  Morgan thank you as always [TS]

  always a pleasure to actually read [TS]

  something beyond a podcast about it it's [TS]

  nice it's nice to read books isn't it it [TS]

  is great it is especially on vacation [TS]

  where ya been through all over that [TS]

  finger lakes I'm coming and going back [TS]

  and going back on vacation next week and [TS]

  is that I wish you have in your mind [TS]

  David lower thank you for being him [TS]

  thank you always a pleasure always a [TS]

  pleasure very nice to have you here and [TS]

  thank you everybody out there in podcast [TS]

  land for listening to us talk about [TS]

  books and be silly at the same time [TS]

  that's pretty much the Charter the [TS]

  uncomfortable so thank you for listening [TS]

  and until next time I remain Jason sell [TS]

  your post [TS]

  goodbye [TS]