The Accidental Tech Podcast

226: Smooth Scrolling Is For Suckers


  we're not going to get through all this [TS]

  follow so just a certain point someone [TS]

  just pull the ripcord and we'll get the [TS]

  hell out the show now we have crossed a [TS]

  wonderful threshold that is totally [TS]

  worth pointing out and calling out on [TS]

  this show we have on my desk is an iPad [TS]

  that is faster in every measure I could [TS]

  possibly think of then John's Mac Pro [TS]

  you are so mean oh you're so mean if it [TS]

  beats a single-core a couple generations [TS]

  ago and it is finally crossed the [TS]

  multi-core so now and I'm pretty sure [TS]

  the GPU is probably lay ahead I'm also [TS]

  pretty sure that the screen on it is [TS]

  higher resolution on the screen [TS]

  connected to Jon's Mac Pro so is if we [TS]

  have finally crossed the point where not [TS]

  even the best iPad but just like the [TS]

  middle-of-the-road iPad is faster in [TS]

  every respect I can possibly think to [TS]

  measure then John's Mac Pro it's the [TS]

  best iPad isn't it what set is the top [TS]

  100 faster higher clock or something I [TS]

  know actually I think it's the same in [TS]

  all respects just the higher extreme [TS]

  resolution yeah well my fans are faster [TS]

  so beat that I got so many more divided [TS]

  by 0 that's not fair [TS]

  yeah well just put up at an event in [TS]

  your calendar and we'll revisit that [TS]

  iPad in 10 years [TS]

  uh-huh we'll see how it's doing yeah [TS]

  that's what you're clinging to yeah is [TS]

  the shattered glass on its surface long [TS]

  after it's been dropped in at least my [TS]

  Hardware still works ten years on barely [TS]

  but it works it's all I've got [TS]

  so I've got to hang on to now and I want [TS]

  this I want this Mac to feel safe and [TS]

  loved and to just carry me through so I [TS]

  can turn funny of it oh now that Nev the [TS]

  iPad like medium sized has USB 3 over [TS]

  its lightning port I also have faster [TS]

  ports on your Mac Pro oh that's [TS]

  magnificent all right let's get this [TS]

  show on the road we this is going to be [TS]

  an all follow-up episode and it's just [TS]

  the way it's going to have to be well I [TS]

  all follow-up episode we will do an [TS]

  after show that has some quasi follow-up [TS]

  but we should dig right in [TS]

  John here we go tell us about a PFS so [TS]

  the AP FS session was on Friday at WWDC [TS]

  saved it till the very end so obviously [TS]

  we couldn't talk about it when we had [TS]

  our live WWC episode because the session [TS]

  hadn't been run yet Ron there was some [TS]

  new information in this session in [TS]

  particular all the issues about file [TS]

  name encoding that we've been talking [TS]

  about on the show we're still talking [TS]

  about of course so this was the the one [TS]

  and only bugga filed against ap FS like [TS]

  last year back when it was introduced [TS]

  with last year think it was last year [TS]

  whatever was yeah I filed a bug we [TS]

  talked about it on the show what are [TS]

  they going to do about encoding and we [TS]

  had you know and we've been talked about [TS]

  off and on for a long time so I think is [TS]

  the the biggest aside from a data [TS]

  integrity which basically was a no-go on [TS]

  that you know as we found out last year [TS]

  so set that aside such a feature doesn't [TS]

  have the encoding issue seem like a big [TS]

  deal and it turns out it is a big deal [TS]

  so some caveats here the session about [TS]

  it was kind of vague and I tried to talk [TS]

  to the Apple folks afterwards and I did [TS]

  get to talk to a few of them including [TS]

  one of the guys who implemented the [TS]

  stuff I'm going to talk about now but it [TS]

  didn't have that much time to talk to [TS]

  him because they went down to the labs [TS]

  and labs is your head like a big line [TS]

  and everything and it seemed like super [TS]

  official and I didn't want to get in [TS]

  that line and like hog the file system [TS]

  engineers from people who are developing [TS]

  apps so I only got a brief time to talk [TS]

  to them sort of in the hallways in [TS]

  transit so forgive me if I got some of [TS]

  this wrong if anyone wants to write in [TS]

  and clarify they can let me know but [TS]

  here's what I've got so in hi Sierra [TS]

  there's something that they're calling [TS]

  native normalization and that's going to [TS]

  be an AP FS I remember a B vest came to [TS]

  iOS and what ten point three point [TS]

  something or other a couple weeks or a [TS]

  month ago and we talked about it on the [TS]

  show and the question we had was what is [TS]

  going to be like when ApS comes to the [TS]

  Mac is it going to be the same deal so [TS]

  and so forth well one thing right off [TS]

  the bat is different AP FS on High [TS]

  Sierra has native normalization what [TS]

  that means is file names are stored as [TS]

  provided by the program in the file [TS]

  system so whatever whatever garbage you [TS]

  give it it says I'm writing that as the [TS]

  file name there you go [TS]

  but directory lookups are done through [TS]

  hashes of normalized versions of the [TS]

  file name so if you put in some file [TS]

  name that's you know I don't know if [TS]

  just any valid sequence of you know you [TS]

  whatever's and you do a look-up on it [TS]

  with a different but equivalent sequence [TS]

  and it's the whole thing with like cafe [TS]

  with a needle exclamation up with an [TS]

  accent on it you can do that with accent [TS]

  as a single character as to combining [TS]

  characters right as far as you're [TS]

  concerned that's the same file name so [TS]

  what native normalization will do is [TS]

  when it stores the hashes for that [TS]

  directory it will not hash the file name [TS]

  that you gave it the finally that's [TS]

  actually in the file system instead it [TS]

  will normalize that file name and store [TS]

  that hash and then when you try to look [TS]

  it up it'll take whatever you gave it [TS]

  normalize that hash it and compared to [TS]

  the other hash so it's kind of weird [TS]

  that you've got in the file system a [TS]

  file name and each file name has a [TS]

  corresponding hash that is not a hash of [TS]

  that file name it's a hash of the [TS]

  normalized version that file name and [TS]

  they're using NFD normalization put a [TS]

  link in the show notes to look at the [TS]

  different normalization forms in Unicode [TS]

  the one they're using according to one [TS]

  of the engineers to talk to is NF D and [TS]

  this is what they call native [TS]

  normalization so that will make it so [TS]

  that on the Mac when you when a program [TS]

  tries to look up a file name no matter [TS]

  how sloppy the program is with the [TS]

  encoding it will find it because it's [TS]

  going to be looking it up by a hash of [TS]

  the normalized version of that not by [TS]

  what you gave it so it's not going to [TS]

  take what you gave it and compare it to [TS]

  the actual file name because then it [TS]

  might not get it and here's the other [TS]

  interesting part about this so iOS still [TS]

  has still doesn't do this yet what [TS]

  they're going to add something they call [TS]

  run time normalization in iOS 10 3 3 and [TS]

  iOS 11 which will not change what's in [TS]

  the file system but will do something [TS]

  that is vague and I didn't understand at [TS]

  the file system level to make it so you [TS]

  can find your files and here's the [TS]

  kicker this this is right from the the a [TS]

  BFS presentation slide future update [TS]

  will convert all devices to the new [TS]

  native normalization so what that means [TS]

  is some point in the future they're [TS]

  going to update all iOS devices file [TS]

  systems again and they're not going to [TS]

  convert them from one file system to [TS]

  another they're going to basically add [TS]

  all the hashes of the normalized forms [TS]

  of all the file names I don't know if [TS]

  that is more dangerous or less dangerous [TS]

  than the other thing it seems to me that [TS]

  it could be more dangerous but I'm [TS]

  assuming they're doing in an additive [TS]

  way but this is what I was getting I was [TS]

  hemming and hawing over this encoding [TS]

  stuff it's going to cause them to have [TS]

  to [TS]

  the file system on every single iOS [TS]

  device at some point in the future like [TS]

  they didn't get it over with there's [TS]

  another one looming whereas the Mac is [TS]

  going to do this one time conversion and [TS]

  it will have the system from the get [TS]

  going it seems to me that Apple's file [TS]

  system engineers were surprised at how [TS]

  many iOS programs take strings directly [TS]

  from the UI and feed them to file system [TS]

  API without doing like a [TS]

  misrepresentation or any other sort of [TS]

  api's that turn the string into the form [TS]

  that the file system understands it just [TS]

  as though someone typed something in a [TS]

  field however that field in my [TS]

  application got that string however was [TS]

  typed however was you know whatever [TS]

  however was normalized and not [TS]

  normalized you composed or whatever I'm [TS]

  just going to pass it straight through [TS]

  to the file system and that that in turn [TS]

  ends up having people not be able to [TS]

  open up their files usually in non ASCII [TS]

  language is obviously because ASCII is [TS]

  very simple it maps one to one to utf-8 [TS]

  and all that so surprise your iOS [TS]

  devices are going to get updated again [TS]

  yay there's actually uh something really [TS]

  fascinating about that and I think I'm [TS]

  jumping ahead in the show notes and I [TS]

  apologize to mr. John siracusa during [TS]

  the talk show I think was federighi had [TS]

  mentioned that whatever version of iOS [TS]

  it doesn't really matter what version it [TS]

  was that the really flipped the switch [TS]

  on a PFS and that migrated everyone to a [TS]

  PFS apparently for like two or three [TS]

  versions prior during the upgrade they [TS]

  would do and jump in John when you're [TS]

  ready they would do kind of like a a [TS]

  trial run of the AP FS migration try to [TS]

  figure out did this work what went right [TS]

  what went what went wrong phone home the [TS]

  results and then revert it all back to [TS]

  hfs+ is that a fair summary yeah and [TS]

  that's the only way I think people were [TS]

  surprised by this but if you've ever [TS]

  done a sort of a production rollout on a [TS]

  large-scale it's the only way you can [TS]

  ever do something like this you the [TS]

  first time you run it for real on [TS]

  everyone's devices can't be the first [TS]

  time it runs right you have to have run [TS]

  it several times before doing it [TS]

  unbeknownst to them is certainly a novel [TS]

  way to do it one possible way to do it [TS]

  is to roll it out to a small subset of [TS]

  your users use them as the guinea pigs [TS]

  I'm not [TS]

  sure how big like that were everybody to [TS]

  get any things breather way you want you [TS]

  have to you never you know programmers [TS]

  no you never find a hugger thing [TS]

  actually works until you you know run it [TS]

  for real and server-side programmers no [TS]

  production is never like exactly like [TS]

  staging is never exactly like dev and so [TS]

  on and so forth you think it is you try [TS]

  to make them as much the same as you [TS]

  possibly can but inevitably you roll [TS]

  something out to production and surprise [TS]

  it behaves a little bit differently in [TS]

  strange ways that you never could have [TS]

  predicted in when you have millions and [TS]

  millions of users that is sure to be the [TS]

  case so yeah they you know since the [TS]

  conversion is non-destructive until the [TS]

  very last step as described in past [TS]

  episodes of the show they did the [TS]

  conversion just didn't do the last step [TS]

  and then ran a full integrity check to [TS]

  say if I was to do this last step would [TS]

  this thing be hosed or would it be okay [TS]

  and then obviously we report the results [TS]

  back to themselves and they could see [TS]

  how it goes and they could have kept [TS]

  doing that process until you know like [TS]

  it could be that you know iOS level [TS]

  would have been the conversion for it [TS]

  but I guess they did it enough times and [TS]

  got enough results to say it's safe to [TS]

  do it in 10 3 whatever that they you [TS]

  know conversion was so that's just a [TS]

  good engineering there and you know and [TS]

  like I said Ford's the design of a PFS [TS]

  the type of file system that is allows [TS]

  them to do both the trial runs and the [TS]

  conversion in a fairly safe way I just I [TS]

  mean again like you said it does make [TS]

  sense but I just found that fascinating [TS]

  that that was the path they chose and [TS]

  just very clever stuff i it's that's [TS]

  super cool it was really cool there were [TS]

  a couple of other interesting tidbits we [TS]

  got from the talk show which will I'm [TS]

  sure discussed later [TS]

  keeping with the a PFS train tell me [TS]

  about the compression versus HFS+ yeah [TS]

  this was a question I had a couple shows [TS]

  back hey hfs+ has compression and a lot [TS]

  of our West files are compressed and [TS]

  other files can be compressed both by [TS]

  user programs and by the OS and stuff [TS]

  like that that's totally transparent to [TS]

  you when you read the file off of a file [TS]

  system hfs+ if it's compressed just [TS]

  decompress is it on the fly you'd never [TS]

  see it it never looks any different they [TS]

  added that feature many years ago right [TS]

  my question was how do you [TS]

  non-destructively convert an HFS+ volume [TS]

  to a PFS while not moving any of the [TS]

  data because if you have a compressed [TS]

  file and you leave it compressed and you [TS]

  convert to a PF s and a PF s doesn't [TS]

  understand that compression when you [TS]

  read that file will be garbage because [TS]

  it's not abs won't know how to [TS]

  decompress it so it'll just read the [TS]

  compressed bytes which is not what [TS]

  you're going to expect and in the grand [TS]

  tradition of Gruber forgetting to ask [TS]

  Phil and Craig questions I forgot to ask [TS]

  anybody w do you see how the heck [TS]

  they're doing this so if anybody knows [TS]

  tell me and it'll be follow-up in a [TS]

  future show I just totally forgot to ask [TS]

  I should have like written it on my palm [TS]

  or something [TS]

  say hey by the way when I've got your [TS]

  heavy an impression again the easiest [TS]

  solution is obviously the day PFS just [TS]

  understands that compression handles it [TS]

  that could be the case you know it's a [TS]

  simple solution but I have no idea [TS]

  interesting alright so next time next [TS]

  WTC you'll have to remember iOS 11 dots [TS]

  for signal strength so I am only vaguely [TS]

  familiar with what's going on here but [TS]

  apparently in some contexts either [TS]

  screenshots or perhaps the OS itself is [TS]

  showing circles for signal strength for [TS]

  your cellular carrier but in other [TS]

  context it's vertical bars is that right [TS]

  I don't know what that who is running [TS]

  iOS 11 I have it on my iPad that's [TS]

  faster than John's Mac Pro and I can [TS]

  tell you that it is definitely using [TS]

  bars all the time yeah I think people [TS]

  were confused by that because in the [TS]

  keynote they showed like the [TS]

  Notification Center slides were near [TS]

  when you first saw the bar isn't it like [TS]

  and we all know Notification Center [TS]

  here's the things you can do in [TS]

  Notification Center those were all iOS [TS]

  10 screenshots that's why I was showing [TS]

  like existing stuff you can do [TS]

  Notification Center it was like a lineup [TS]

  of big things and they all had dots in [TS]

  them and the next slide was like here's [TS]

  what you can do in iOS 11 and those had [TS]

  bars someone told me they thought there [TS]

  was a screenshot in the keynote that was [TS]

  supposed to be iOS 11 that also had dots [TS]

  but I don't recall seeing either way [TS]

  Marko's got the actual beta and their [TS]

  bars again like it whatever you see like [TS]

  in betas and stuff is never actually [TS]

  final but I can tell you that in beta [TS]

  one on my iPad it is bars all bars all [TS]

  the time and this is a welcome change [TS]

  because dots always sucked I'm going to [TS]

  like dots but the most important thing [TS]

  about bars versus dots as far as [TS]

  everyone's conspiracy theories go on [TS]

  this is that bars take up less with in [TS]

  the top bar and why would that be [TS]

  important why do you need them to be [TS]

  smaller all of the weird rumors about [TS]

  the iPhone 8 or whatever they're going [TS]

  to [TS]

  having something in the middle of the [TS]

  top of your screen that doesn't leave [TS]

  enough room for the five dots to you [TS]

  know lay themselves out that something [TS]

  could be part of the case of the phone [TS]

  like the cameras and stuff and it could [TS]

  be like a little mono brow type thing [TS]

  where the top of the phone is not [TS]

  straight across but actually this is a [TS]

  little dip in the middle it could be [TS]

  that the cameras are behind the screen [TS]

  at that point I don't quite understand [TS]

  why you'd have to get rid of the bar so [TS]

  that anyway there are a lot of theories [TS]

  about why it has to be thinner the thing [TS]

  that bothers me about the bars is and [TS]

  one of the reasons that well I don't [TS]

  know if one reason Apple got rid of them [TS]

  but it was one of the things that people [TS]

  don't like about bars and it was [TS]

  discussed when they did get rid of them [TS]

  was that visually speaking like the [TS]

  visual weight of one two three four or [TS]

  five bars is not even so if you have two [TS]

  bars it doesn't look like half the lit [TS]

  up pixels of four bars because it's like [TS]

  a stair-step thing and you know it just [TS]

  it looks like your signal is weaker than [TS]

  it is then you do with dots if you have [TS]

  five evenly sized dots then sort of one [TS]

  you know two dots is exactly you know [TS]

  almost exactly half the lit up pixels as [TS]

  four dots you know and so it seems more [TS]

  fair and you don't like to see your [TS]

  phone with these tiny little one or two [TS]

  bars even though two bars could be [TS]

  perfectly good you feel a little bit [TS]

  better when you see two out of five dots [TS]

  at least that's my impression anyway [TS]

  remember when they fixed antenna gate by [TS]

  making the bars taller yeah or that [TS]

  didn't they just like change the scale [TS]

  because like what is three bars really [TS]

  that you know this isn't yeah they did [TS]

  some fussing that it'll actually did [TS]

  both like they I think they changed I [TS]

  think they changed some of you like you [TS]

  know decibel cutoff points of what the [TS]

  bars are presented and also they they [TS]

  made the shorter like the leftmost bars [TS]

  a little bit taller so that's why it's [TS]

  kind of like a like almost like a curved [TS]

  ramp up from the left instead of a [TS]

  straight ramp up it may call the bar is [TS]

  the same height so it's like a block or [TS]

  something well that's what dots are yeah [TS]

  but they're all spread out no but these [TS]

  whole things about like trying to like [TS]

  you know make room for you know a cutout [TS]

  in the 2017 new iPhone I don't I'm not [TS]

  sure I buy that be like the whole idea [TS]

  of having these like these protruding [TS]

  like camera and speaker things and [TS]

  having a screen that goes [TS]

  above to the left on the right of it I [TS]

  still don't get that at all because I [TS]

  just I mean I think we've learned by now [TS]

  that the rumor cycle with this kind of [TS]

  stuff gets about a third of what they [TS]

  predict correct like it's it's not a [TS]

  great ratio and I think this is just one [TS]

  of those things like this this sounds [TS]

  like something an Android maker would do [TS]

  not something Apple to do because if you [TS]

  think about how that screen space would [TS]

  actually be used first of all there's a [TS]

  lot of stuff that goes in the status bar [TS]

  still even in iOS 11 there's lots of [TS]

  stuff that goes in the status bar one of [TS]

  the big things is where the clock go the [TS]

  clock is right right there in the middle [TS]

  and there's not really room on the sides [TS]

  to put it there if you unless you get [TS]

  rid of something else that everyone [TS]

  likes or that you need so it's just like [TS]

  I just don't I don't see how the status [TS]

  bar morphs to have a big cut out in the [TS]

  middle of it and still be good anyway [TS]

  and then I also don't see why you would [TS]

  have the screen extend with this giant [TS]

  rectangle sticking into the middle of it [TS]

  because what are you going to do with [TS]

  that space like are you going to show [TS]

  parts of a photo that extend into that [TS]

  into that space then you then you see [TS]

  the big black cutout like it's just I [TS]

  don't see any way in which that looks [TS]

  good and actually works in practice let [TS]

  us have eyebrows rendered there you know [TS]

  like rendered hair push your eyebrows [TS]

  yeah you know so the non [TS]

  conspiracy-theory [TS]

  other than someone that looks just like [TS]

  dots which is perfectly valid is that [TS]

  having more room in the status bar is [TS]

  always a good thing right I mean that [TS]

  gives you more options sometimes I saw [TS]

  as products kind of crowded up there and [TS]

  if you're taking up less room with dots [TS]

  then you get a little more breathing [TS]

  room and it looks nicer if they want to [TS]

  say take that weird back arrow thingy [TS]

  that is always squished up in the is [TS]

  that even in the status bar anyone know [TS]

  yeah it does yeah like lay that out [TS]

  differently now they have extra room who [TS]

  knows anyway it could just be that in [TS]

  like dots we'll find out you know a [TS]

  couple months indeed all right another [TS]

  thing that has happened in iOS 11 [TS]

  apparently the third-party service [TS]

  integration that came in a couple of [TS]

  versions ago and remember exactly when [TS]

  so this is integration at the system [TS]

  level with Twitter Facebook Flickr Vimeo [TS]

  you could enter your passwords [TS]

  it's for any of those services at the [TS]

  system level and then when an app wants [TS]

  to leverage those services you know it [TS]

  can kind of ask the system for for the [TS]

  accounts blah blah blah those have all [TS]

  been removed and according to the iOS 11 [TS]

  beta release notes quote social accounts [TS]

  have been removed from settings in iOS [TS]

  11 third-party apps no longer have [TS]

  access to those signed in accounts [TS]

  what's that about [TS]

  that's about adding one more thing to my [TS]

  to-do list this summer because I use the [TS]

  Twitter one and now I have to stop using [TS]

  it and write my own stupid Twitter login [TS]

  and I'm not happy about that sorry so [TS]

  Darren Cohen says that Facebook and [TS]

  Twitter get it rid of the API is that do [TS]

  that stuff and that's why Microsoft's [TS]

  also had to pull that support out of [TS]

  windows I'm not sure if that's the case [TS]

  but you know so fine [TS]

  Facebook and Twitter got rid of them [TS]

  what about Flickr and Vimeo like no one [TS]

  is even developing they'll ask you know [TS]

  it's all that some of might be [TS]

  developing do you know anyway um it [TS]

  seems more like it seems more like a [TS]

  policy decision this is interesting [TS]

  about the bay release notes by the way I [TS]

  read them a couple times like they have [TS]

  a known issue section and that but [TS]

  sometimes they just talk about changes [TS]

  and sometimes they phrase it so you [TS]

  realize oh in this build such and such a [TS]

  feature is like this but we don't mean [TS]

  it to be that way it's just way it is in [TS]

  this bill sometimes some things like [TS]

  that under or under a known issues [TS]

  header sometimes they're just in the [TS]

  changes section and the reason I quoted [TS]

  this is because I think this sentence [TS]

  expresses pretty clearly that this is [TS]

  not just something that's missing in [TS]

  beta 1 but that marker really does have [TS]

  to do work and they're just not leaving [TS]

  them in there though they're officially [TS]

  deprecated in the API they're gone like [TS]

  that it's not yeah it's not like a [TS]

  temporary beta 1 thing this is actually [TS]

  they're gone so it does simplify things [TS]

  because any time Apple has one of these [TS]

  things where it's like certain blessed [TS]

  third parties are given deeper hooks [TS]

  into the operating system than other [TS]

  ones it's kind of convenient but then [TS]

  Apple has to eternally maintain an [TS]

  awareness of the of the social service [TS]

  zeitgeist they're like what's popular [TS]

  now because they can't they can't just [TS]

  keep the same set of things and support [TS]

  them forever because three or four years [TS]

  later then there's something new and and [TS]

  some old one needs to go away but you [TS]

  take the old one and go away then people [TS]

  like Marco are sad because they use it [TS]

  in their [TS]

  but the the most a polite solution is [TS]

  you know what you don't get any just get [TS]

  yourself like because then you don't [TS]

  have to worry I would have to keep up [TS]

  with this anymore if they change their [TS]

  api's they won't break our stop we don't [TS]

  have to do deals with them every [TS]

  developer can handle it for themselves [TS]

  obviously the best solution would be [TS]

  some way for some sort of extension [TS]

  mechanism for the third-party services [TS]

  themselves who are highly motivated to [TS]

  have this type of integration to write [TS]

  such an integration for iOS but that's [TS]

  kind of long a lot and some third-party [TS]

  keyboards and that something doesn't [TS]

  seem like Apple would do but they could [TS]

  do it someday well and also like the the [TS]

  existing share extension framework [TS]

  really does most of what you need for [TS]

  that and and puts the power of creating [TS]

  those things and maintain them and [TS]

  designing them into the hands of the app [TS]

  makers who run those services and have [TS]

  their apps so it like you know it rather [TS]

  than having Apple design the share to [TS]

  Twitter sheet for instance that is built [TS]

  into the system and have the system [TS]

  maintain a separate Twitter login [TS]

  account that is separately set and [TS]

  separately managed now that's all on [TS]

  Twitter or whatever happens so now a [TS]

  Twitter can just with their app have [TS]

  your own login in their application [TS]

  Twitter can design their own share [TS]

  extension and have it do whatever they [TS]

  want it to do and look however they want [TS]

  to look and so it and then you know it [TS]

  isn't now just Twitter but now when [TS]

  something new comes along like if Manson [TS]

  wants to have a share tension from micro [TS]

  blog that will now get equal billing as [TS]

  a share extension as things like Twitter [TS]

  and that's great and again like like we [TS]

  were saying like this the the system of [TS]

  having Apple maintained this fairly [TS]

  short list of like services that matter [TS]

  that will have first-class integration [TS]

  that's not scalable and I think we've [TS]

  seen over time like you know so many new [TS]

  networks have come up since then like [TS]

  there was never a shared a snapchat [TS]

  that's crazy [TS]

  snapchat is bigger than some of the [TS]

  things that are noticed but it like it [TS]

  didn't get to it the share to Twitter [TS]

  that Apple made that that was there for [TS]

  you know the last few iOS versions the [TS]

  share to Twitter and iOS 10 broke on me [TS]

  all the time like it would I would post [TS]

  a tweet with it and it would just never [TS]

  post and presumably like it was hitting [TS]

  some weird API limit and was or it [TS]

  wasn't counting characters correctly or [TS]

  something and there was no interface [TS]

  to report an error to me or to report [TS]

  that it failed or to retry alright and [TS]

  looks like it's like the system Apple [TS]

  had before just did not scale and so [TS]

  it's nice to have now that we have a new [TS]

  system of its share extensions that [TS]

  we've actually had for like 3 iOS [TS]

  version though now Apple can step back [TS]

  and say alright you know what we tried [TS]

  doing this ourselves it was ok but now [TS]

  this is up to you guys and we're going [TS]

  to step back from it and you can always [TS]

  kind of tell like the the data sharing [TS]

  relationship between Apple and Twitter [TS]

  and Facebook you can always tell it was [TS]

  little bit tense you know there's there [TS]

  really very much at odds with their [TS]

  business models and what they want to do [TS]

  with the user and who owns the user and [TS]

  who owns the users data and what kind of [TS]

  integration they want and everything [TS]

  else and so to have Apple just fully [TS]

  step back from that and you just tell [TS]

  everyone else like look you're now cut [TS]

  off from any kind of privilege you can [TS]

  do these things but so can everyone else [TS]

  and everything that's part of the system [TS]

  is off limits to you that I think is [TS]

  better for everybody really yeah reminds [TS]

  me of when Apple first added Facebook [TS]

  integration to what was then OS 10 and [TS]

  one of our views remember hearing about [TS]

  how they sort of bent over backwards to [TS]

  try to integrate Facebook with apples [TS]

  contact databases without giving [TS]

  Facebook all of your contact info but [TS]

  having them sync and it was you know [TS]

  tense is definitely the right word for [TS]

  it [TS]

  the only bit about not having these [TS]

  things as part of system is I guess it's [TS]

  probably good for the services but maybe [TS]

  some users won't like it you have to [TS]

  have the app for these things installed [TS]

  now even if you're like oh I'm never [TS]

  going to use Flickr on my phone I just [TS]

  want to be able to post to it from my [TS]

  phone well you gotta have the flow graph [TS]

  installed because the extensions come [TS]

  from the app so whatever just put it in [TS]

  a folder somewhere and you will notice [TS]

  it we were sponsored this week by mail [TS]

  route stop spam today with a free 30-day [TS]

  trial at mail route net slash ATP you [TS]

  know you should handle your email [TS]

  security and delivery people who do only [TS]

  that and that is mail around now this [TS]

  applies to big companies or individuals [TS]

  in it pretty much anybody who hosts an [TS]

  email account on their own domain so [TS]

  whether you use Google Apps for business [TS]

  or whatever they call that this year or [TS]

  you're using your own IMAP host [TS]

  something like fast mail or whether you [TS]

  run your own servers whether for [TS]

  yourself or for your business if you're [TS]

  on your own mail servers you direct the [TS]

  internet to send their mail to mail rat [TS]

  through MX records in your DNS for your [TS]

  domain and then mail route delivers to [TS]

  your servers only the clean mail they do [TS]

  all the spam filtering virus filtering [TS]

  all that for you so you get only clean [TS]

  mail and in my opinion I'm using it now [TS]

  for over a year at least and it is Bar [TS]

  None the best spam filter I have ever [TS]

  seen and it's full of great features [TS]

  whether you're a business or individual [TS]

  there's the adeno date this is made for [TS]

  enterprise so they have all sorts of [TS]

  wonderful enterprise features that I [TS]

  personally don't understand they have a [TS]

  whole API to manage it including you [TS]

  know all sorts of you know crazy admin [TS]

  tools there's a nice interface if you [TS]

  want to use that instead of the API it's [TS]

  all designed to make your life better as [TS]

  either an end user of email or as an [TS]

  email administrator for a business and [TS]

  it is so so good I cannot tell you [TS]

  enough how good mail right is I hardly [TS]

  ever get spam anymore it's glorious it's [TS]

  it's really weird but I do get it that's [TS]

  how rarely I get it because it's [TS]

  noteworthy when I do get it it is so so [TS]

  great I cannot recommend mail route [TS]

  enough and so again whether you're an [TS]

  individual like me putting it in front [TS]

  of an IMAP host or whether you're [TS]

  running a bunch of servers for a [TS]

  business you need mail route to filter [TS]

  out all the spam and viruses before they [TS]

  get to your servers you can save server [TS]

  load you're more secure that way and [TS]

  it's way better at filtering out spam [TS]

  than anything else I've ever seen yes [TS]

  Gmail people even Gmail it is so so good [TS]

  at filtering out spam check out mail [TS]

  route today and if you use our link mail [TS]

  route dinettes slash ATP you get a free [TS]

  trial 30 days and you get 10% off for [TS]

  the lifetime of your account so every [TS]

  time they bill you [TS]

  you get 10% off that's pretty great [TS]

  check it out today mail route net slash [TS]

  ATP thank you very much - mail route for [TS]

  sponsoring our show moving on in iOS 11 [TS]

  according to Fraser Spears on the home [TS]

  screen there are like four different [TS]

  things you can do so a short tap means [TS]

  open whatever app icon you just tapped [TS]

  on a medium tap [TS]

  apparently opens a popover menu a medium [TS]

  hold what is a medium tap then anyway [TS]

  as I one thing it took me a very long [TS]

  time to figure out how to move multiple [TS]

  apps at once on springboard what like [TS]

  you can move an app around just with a [TS]

  regular drag-and-drop but you can't do [TS]

  multiple apps with that to do multiple [TS]

  apps you have to put it into wiggle X [TS]

  mode we're like the old way where you [TS]

  long press on it and eventually it goes [TS]

  into wiggle X mode then you can do the [TS]

  multi tap thing like it took my sudden [TS]

  this obviously it took me so long to [TS]

  figure out some of this stuff like it's [TS]

  there there are now like more modes than [TS]

  than ever before and it's very powerful [TS]

  but there are so many modes and gestures [TS]

  and alternate taps and everything it's [TS]

  going to be a while before even power [TS]

  users figure out what what all this [TS]

  stuff is so to come back to Fraser [TS]

  Spears source power user yes our short [TS]

  tap is open the app the medium tap is [TS]

  the popover menu medium hold is begin a [TS]

  drag long hold is enter rearrange mode [TS]

  all of those different things based on [TS]

  you putting your meaty finger against [TS]

  the screen on top of an icon for various [TS]

  amounts of time with various medicine [TS]

  movement I think for such is separate [TS]

  because force touches brings up the [TS]

  whatever the forced touch menu that the [TS]

  application implements this reminds me [TS]

  of course of the home button which [TS]

  started out as a button you press to go [TS]

  back to springboard and ended up having [TS]

  a Morse code set of things that you can [TS]

  tap on to do all sorts of weird stuff I [TS]

  mean at the point where there we talked [TS]

  about it before the accessibility thing [TS]

  where it slides down the screen wherever [TS]

  that's called that was like two taps but [TS]

  don't actually press the button that's [TS]

  what we level they were getting at were [TS]

  like they'd used up the one to tap and [TS]

  hold do this to that it's like okay now [TS]

  now this is a tap but don't press the [TS]

  button as the button doesn't move [TS]

  anymore but like don't press it enough [TS]

  that it would move if it did move it's [TS]

  very strange [TS]

  continuing title with iOS 11 a new [TS]

  feature of iOS 11 which was mentioned I [TS]

  thought somewhere maybe during the [TS]

  keynote but I might be wrong about that [TS]

  but I saw this somewhere last week you [TS]

  can now share your Wi-Fi passwords so [TS]

  this there's an article 95 Mac will put [TS]

  the show notes if a friend comes over [TS]

  with an iPhone running iOS 11 you can [TS]

  automatically log [TS]

  into your Wi-Fi in one tap and this [TS]

  looks very similar to kind of the the [TS]

  air pods charge status when you flick [TS]

  open the air pod case I don't obviously [TS]

  think that's how its activated but they [TS]

  have a screen shot in here on the 95 Mac [TS]

  article and what a cool idea I dig it [TS]

  my question is do they get to see your [TS]

  password like is this just a convenience [TS]

  feature of not having to read something [TS]

  off to somebody and they type it in and [TS]

  get capital that is wrong or is this a [TS]

  security feature where you can let [TS]

  someone log on to your thing but they [TS]

  can't see your password I'm inclined to [TS]

  think it's just a convenience feature [TS]

  because once the password is on their [TS]

  phone surely they can get it off if they [TS]

  wanted it it wasn't presumably I mean [TS]

  because they have to know like they have [TS]

  to have the password in their device a [TS]

  possession for it to be on the Wi-Fi so [TS]

  I'm guessing like it probably isn't [TS]

  shown to them it's probably just putting [TS]

  keychain but there are ways to access [TS]

  things in keychain like if you sync if [TS]

  it's synced with iCloud keychain and it [TS]

  syncs to a Mac then you can go to [TS]

  keychain access and you can get the [TS]

  password right there so what are the [TS]

  secure Enclave possibly get all right [TS]

  right so yeah I'm guessing that you know [TS]

  they end up having a way to get to the [TS]

  password if they want to and this is [TS]

  this is more for quick convenience and [TS]

  like casual security than it is about [TS]

  real security because real security is a [TS]

  go in them on your network then they're [TS]

  on your network that's it exactly [TS]

  everyone's Wi-Fi passwords are like the [TS]

  kids names anyway so come on yeah I no [TS]

  one ever changes their Wi-Fi passwords [TS]

  because now they have like sixteen [TS]

  different things on it and people have [TS]

  years and their Wi-Fi passwords and it's [TS]

  like 1999 oh yeah mine's 2008 if I'm not [TS]

  mistaken [TS]

  yeah Wi-Fi really needs like a like a [TS]

  token system like like oh where you can [TS]

  just like issue devices tokens then like [TS]

  you can change the password for new [TS]

  devices really so before everyone writes [TS]

  in I know there are flavors of Wi-Fi [TS]

  security that allow that sort of thing [TS]

  but it isn't generally speaking it is [TS]

  not the sort of thing you will ever find [TS]

  somebody's house is that like they'll do [TS]

  there is the possible yeah yeah and [TS]

  there I've seen installations in the [TS]

  home that will do this sort of thing I [TS]

  understand that's a thing it doesn't [TS]

  really matter the details like a friend [TS]

  of mine had some set up with like a [TS]

  Raspberry Pi or some such where you [TS]

  would push a little button on some [TS]

  device it would actually like print out [TS]

  a temporary Wi-Fi password for you just [TS]

  because this is the sort of thing you [TS]

  did [TS]

  for living so you had like crazy [TS]

  enterprise hardware in his house and it [TS]

  was actually very cool but but yeah for [TS]

  any normal person you're absolutely [TS]

  right Marco like this would be kind of [TS]

  cool if it was usable and I consider [TS]

  myself a normal person in this context [TS]

  because I'm not like a super network [TS]

  administrator so yeah so for me to like [TS]

  issue a temporary password would be [TS]

  pretty neat but that's not the sort of [TS]

  thing you find in normal like wpa2 or [TS]

  whatever it is households all right [TS]

  moving on a friend of the show Steven [TS]

  Smith he pointed out that drag-and-drop [TS]

  upload of files to Mobile Safari works [TS]

  now and I actually saw I don't think I'm [TS]

  going to have it handy and I'm not gonna [TS]

  be able to dig it up but I think it was [TS]

  trendy Caldwell had a tweet about this [TS]

  you can take several files from say like [TS]

  the files app for example and you can [TS]

  drag them into mobile safari much like [TS]

  you would do in regular desktop safari [TS]

  and it will actually upload all of those [TS]

  files which is super cool [TS]

  it's another thing Marko's ipad can do [TS]

  that my Mac can also do finally file [TS]

  uploads the final frontier for iOS web [TS]

  violence my word I put this in here is [TS]

  because not to get like dragon drop [TS]

  forks ever but because until I read this [TS]

  it wouldn't have even occurred to me to [TS]

  try that on iOS because I've been so [TS]

  conditioned but from so many years yeah [TS]

  you're gonna do like a file upload you [TS]

  got to go to a Mac for that right and [TS]

  even though we all know drag and drop is [TS]

  there I wouldn't like you have to change [TS]

  your mindset now with these drag and [TS]

  drop features to think to try something [TS]

  instead of just like walling it off in [TS]

  your mind is like oh you can only do [TS]

  that in the desktop not true anymore [TS]

  with iOS 11 this is I think going to be [TS]

  like one of the I mean this is always [TS]

  the case like with new platforms but [TS]

  like this is one of the reasons why I [TS]

  think young people have a way better [TS]

  chance of working on these platforms [TS]

  than we do because like it is so easy as [TS]

  someone who's been who's been around [TS]

  since the early days of iOS like us you [TS]

  know it's so easy to forget all the new [TS]

  things that you can do that you used to [TS]

  not be able to do and we just don't even [TS]

  think to try those things because we [TS]

  like quote know it you know [TS]

  subconsciously we just know that's [TS]

  that's nothing you can do here and like [TS]

  you need somebody younger than you like [TS]

  fatigued she to come around and be like [TS]

  no look you can do all this crap you [TS]

  guys are done and he's not that mean of [TS]

  course he's super nice but you know he's [TS]

  young at heart [TS]

  heeey yeah like you need somebody who's [TS]

  like more fresh to the platform or more [TS]

  willing to experiment or more [TS]

  open-minded than us old farts to to [TS]

  actually like push the boundaries of [TS]

  using the thing and actually use up as [TS]

  all these new features that we might see [TS]

  in a keynote for five seconds and [TS]

  immediately forget about the flip side [TS]

  of that by the way is whenever the [TS]

  youngsters see me and old fart use my [TS]

  Mac they never know all the things that [TS]

  I'm dragging around and like the fact [TS]

  that you you know proxy icons and title [TS]

  bars like totally undiscoverable stuff [TS]

  if you haven't been using the Mac [TS]

  forever or like which applications you [TS]

  have to hold long and then start to drag [TS]

  or start drag immediately versus holding [TS]

  to drag large pieces of text to copy it [TS]

  inside terminal without blowing away [TS]

  your buffer or you know before you even [TS]

  get into multiple clipboards and all [TS]

  those stuff there's lots of things that [TS]

  old platforms can do the young people [TS]

  don't learn as well because they didn't [TS]

  go through all the you know they didn't [TS]

  start out with a simple system and see [TS]

  new features get added they just use the [TS]

  system they use enough of the system to [TS]

  get their job done and it didn't have [TS]

  this history of learning all these other [TS]

  obscure features so there's there's [TS]

  secrets of lying and Mac OS as well [TS]

  especially if you're an old next user [TS]

  this stuff from next still lurking in [TS]

  there and there's stuff from the old Mac [TS]

  still working on there so we have [TS]

  something to teach the youth right [TS]

  before we die Wow on our slow Mac Pro's [TS]

  man you are really Jill in this homely [TS]

  Savage well I mean to be fair to be fair [TS]

  to John's very slow old Mac Pro it is [TS]

  really impress is kind of an argument [TS]

  for the Mac Pro that first of all that [TS]

  he's still using it almost ten years [TS]

  later and it's mostly fine a second of [TS]

  all its argument for upgrade ability [TS]

  because upgrades like an SSD and a new [TS]

  GPU have made this possible and third of [TS]

  all it really shows quite the difference [TS]

  when you buy a Mac Pro like the mat like [TS]

  the iOS hardware surpassed five-year old [TS]

  Macs you know long ago but it took it [TS]

  took until now for it to surpass this [TS]

  ten-year old Mac in multi-core [TS]

  performance is when you have eight cores [TS]

  it takes a long time for things to catch [TS]

  up to that and like one of the reasons [TS]

  why I love the Mac Pro so much is you [TS]

  get so much Headroom like you literally [TS]

  you know you're [TS]

  the core performance is always limited [TS]

  by whatever the technology of the era is [TS]

  for single core design but they cram so [TS]

  many cores in there that for parallel [TS]

  workloads which is what a lot of pros do [TS]

  you can basically buy yourself 10 years [TS]

  from now levels of performance today and [TS]

  so the Mac Pro like it's it's it's [TS]

  useful to a lot of types of people for [TS]

  way longer than any other computer is so [TS]

  that I it's it that just shows like why [TS]

  having these high core count [TS]

  workstations is still valuable because [TS]

  you're literally buying yourself like a [TS]

  place 10 years from now performance just [TS]

  wait for the iMac Pro with its 18 cores [TS]

  that'll give you another good head start [TS]

  on the phones okay so we made a [TS]

  reference to it earlier but there were a [TS]

  couple of things that were I mean the [TS]

  whole show was interesting but a couple [TS]

  of interesting tidbits that came out of [TS]

  the talk show live from last week so [TS]

  this was as per tradition it was John [TS]

  Gruber and then as of the last couple of [TS]

  years it's been Phil Schiller and Craig [TS]

  federighi and as usual was a great show [TS]

  I like that John doesn't just throw up [TS]

  the softball questions and I can't think [TS]

  of Tom my head of what the hard balls [TS]

  were but he always asked at least a few [TS]

  hard balls which I liked and at one [TS]

  point at the end chiller actually said [TS]

  to him hey man in so many words you know [TS]

  hey man you always say a couple weeks [TS]

  later man I wish I asked Schiller this [TS]

  so what do you got and I think it took [TS]

  Gruber by surprise which was kind of [TS]

  funny and and I forget exactly what he [TS]

  came up with but in summary it was a [TS]

  really great show if you haven't [TS]

  listened to it and/or watched it because [TS]

  there's a video available you really [TS]

  really should and John and I had the [TS]

  pleasure of being seated front row and [TS]

  watching it Marco had the pleasure of [TS]

  sitting in a 90-degree a sound booth in [TS]

  watching slash listening to it but but [TS]

  there were some interesting things that [TS]

  came from it one of them was the trial a [TS]

  PFS migrations we mentioned earlier but [TS]

  the other thing that all of us I think [TS]

  picked up on were also amazed by was the [TS]

  photo data that is synced in between [TS]

  devices which was mentioned in the [TS]

  keynote or maybe not the keynote with [TS]

  the State of the Union if not that isn't [TS]

  what we thought it was so the way [TS]

  I understood what was said in whatever [TS]

  keynoter State of the Union was that hey [TS]

  all of the metadata that we generate [TS]

  during the photo crawl process on any of [TS]

  our devices all of that is getting [TS]

  synced v iCloud to all your other [TS]

  devices we were all very very very [TS]

  excited about this turns out that that [TS]

  is not the case and what's actually [TS]

  happening is only the stuff that that [TS]

  Apple has complete certainty in and I'm [TS]

  slightly paraphrasing Craig here only [TS]

  the stuff that Apple is complete [TS]

  certainty in is what's inked which in [TS]

  turn means only the stuff that a user [TS]

  has actively said yes or no to so in the [TS]

  case of photos what that means is if [TS]

  there is a photo that has the three of [TS]

  us in it and I as a user say that one is [TS]

  Marco and that one is John that photo in [TS]

  the information about it that I've [TS]

  provided will be synced to B iCloud to [TS]

  the other devices but anything else any [TS]

  of the generated like metadata and all [TS]

  that that isn't synced at all which [TS]

  probably isn't a bad thing but I [TS]

  wouldn't necessarily it's a good say [TS]

  it's a good thing either and I presume [TS]

  that this is because of privacy concerns [TS]

  but it was I feel like it was a little [TS]

  bit of a bait-and-switch or maybe I just [TS]

  misunderstood what was said Nikki no but [TS]

  it felt like a bait-and-switch [TS]

  compared to earlier that week when we [TS]

  had heard oh yeah we're syncing things [TS]

  between devices it's great yeah I get I [TS]

  understand why they're doing it this way [TS]

  but I think it's the wrong choice so [TS]

  like you know basically you know that [TS]

  there are there were a few problems with [TS]

  the way it was before you know problem [TS]

  number one was that your if you actually [TS]

  took the time to enter things like like [TS]

  faces data that wasn't syncing multiple [TS]

  devices so it kind of it was very [TS]

  frustrating it's it's like a form of [TS]

  data loss like you input that on one [TS]

  device but then like you go to some [TS]

  other device and it's not there or it's [TS]

  different so that's no good so that's [TS]

  the part they're sinking problem number [TS]

  two is that every time you do an OS [TS]

  restore or get a new phone or replace a [TS]

  phone from service or a new Mac or any [TS]

  of any any new devices with with photos [TS]

  on them your device would basically run [TS]

  really hot and have terrible battery [TS]

  life if it if it misbehaved and CPU to [TS]

  be maxed out for hours or days after you [TS]

  got it as photo analysis do [TS]

  he went through your entire photo [TS]

  library and tried to recognize objects [TS]

  in the photos so you could search for [TS]

  them that one they didn't fix that one [TS]

  is still being done on all the different [TS]

  devices individually and it sounds like [TS]

  the reason why is because that's [TS]

  something that they're kind of guessing [TS]

  on each device they're like they're [TS]

  using you know machine learning to try [TS]

  to figure these things out and that's [TS]

  fine but it seems like the reason why [TS]

  they don't want to sync that is so that [TS]

  a newer device that maybe has a newer OS [TS]

  that can be smarter about what it [TS]

  recognizes you can get smarter results [TS]

  on that and that way you don't have like [TS]

  bad results synced forever from old [TS]

  photos but that creates the experience [TS]

  not only of having your devices be [TS]

  really hot for the first couple days you [TS]

  have them and your CPU core if you maxed [TS]

  out for a long time but that also makes [TS]

  so that you get different search results [TS]

  on different devices for like the same [TS]

  query and that's not really great either [TS]

  so I'm not really sure what what led [TS]

  them to make this decision there's [TS]

  probably more information here that we [TS]

  don't have I'm sure there were good [TS]

  reasons but from where I sit from the [TS]

  from the subset of the real information [TS]

  that I have I still think it's the wrong [TS]

  choice yeah it's not just an object [TS]

  recognition to the faces thing is the [TS]

  thing that bothers me the most because I [TS]

  think most people don't spend that much [TS]

  time confirming faces because it's [TS]

  annoying to do you confirm some or [TS]

  whatever the width system is supposed to [TS]

  work especially on a single you know [TS]

  device scenario is you confirm bunch of [TS]

  pages to say yes no no yes maybe make [TS]

  some Corrections and based on your [TS]

  confirmations the system then guesses [TS]

  all the other pictures that have this [TS]

  person's face in them and that type of [TS]

  feature I've always wanted this facial [TS]

  recognition feature to replace my manual [TS]

  tagging system or if I want to find all [TS]

  pictures of my wife I don't want to have [TS]

  to manually tag every single picture [TS]

  that she's in I just want to tell the [TS]

  system this is her this is our this is [TS]

  our this er I'll do that a hundred times [TS]

  like I am sure I've spent way more time [TS]

  in that photo [TS]

  Confirmation thing then most people have [TS]

  right and then based on that data set [TS]

  find all the other ones and the end of [TS]

  my interface to this is I want you know [TS]

  somewhere in the sidebar like a smart [TS]

  folder or whatever to say you know [TS]

  pictures of my wife right and as far as [TS]

  I'm concerned the set of pictures of my [TS]

  wife is not a thing like finding like [TS]

  telephone or plastic or like you know [TS]

  garbage can in a picture that new [TS]

  versions and different machine learning [TS]

  AI algorithms can you know do better and [TS]

  future things it should be the same like [TS]

  I want it to be at the same as if I had [TS]

  manually tagged it right and and I want [TS]

  the same experience on every device [TS]

  right and if it is better in some future [TS]

  device because it's like well we are [TS]

  technically guessing and this one is [TS]

  able to guess better if it is better [TS]

  another device they just need to like [TS]

  version that stuff or or you know that [TS]

  so that when as soon as they get the [TS]

  better version sync the better version [TS]

  ever at bottom line if I have that Smart [TS]

  Folder wherever this is pictures of my [TS]

  wife I don't want to see wildly [TS]

  different counts on them and they will [TS]

  be pretty different because depending on [TS]

  how much time you spent adding the [TS]

  people's faces or how many other people [TS]

  you have look similar or whatever I [TS]

  don't want it to to Regas at different [TS]

  times and see like oh why do I have a [TS]

  different number of pictures of my wife [TS]

  nice two devices you don't it's just [TS]

  that one has a different notion of how [TS]

  many pictures of your wife there are [TS]

  because there even though they're both [TS]

  working from the same small data set of [TS]

  manual selected pictures is too much [TS]

  variability blah blah I know it's better [TS]

  than it was but I still think this room [TS]

  to grow it's always funny to me that uh [TS]

  that Craig seems not like obviously [TS]

  uncomfortable but not totally in love [TS]

  with being on stage and I think we [TS]

  talked about this last year too until it [TS]

  a technical thing comes up and suddenly [TS]

  everything changes and he's like super [TS]

  confident [TS]

  awesome engineer guy it to the point [TS]

  that like his depth of knowledge in [TS]

  things that that are reasonably I don't [TS]

  know esoteric is the right word but like [TS]

  he'll happily go deep on damn near [TS]

  anything on the drop of a hat and I [TS]

  don't know how the man can keep that [TS]

  much stuff in his head it's just [TS]

  stunning to me because especially my [TS]

  stereotypical view of managers is that [TS]

  they're so far outside of the weeds [TS]

  there their gills they're sitting on [TS]

  their fancy Thrones looking down at [TS]

  their kingdom of minions and saying Oh [TS]

  minions take care of things not having [TS]

  any idea what the weeds are and what's [TS]

  in the weeds etc but but he can go all [TS]

  the way down like on anything it's just [TS]

  stunning and I mana I love listening to [TS]

  him talk that guy's well and Phil is [TS]

  great as well don't get me wrong but but [TS]

  man Craig is a a nerds nerd I dig it [TS]

  agreed I didn't listen to the recording [TS]

  you know because I saw a live but in the [TS]

  live thing there was one heckler who [TS]

  shouted out to her one clan Joe when is [TS]

  Siri going to get better I don't know if [TS]

  they cut that out of the final recording [TS]

  but that did happen no it's it's there [TS]

  but they you know they didn't address it [TS]

  because it was like they were basically [TS]

  like John was like in the middle of [TS]

  asking a question so they just kept [TS]

  moving like cuz it was it was not like [TS]

  at a at a pull at a point where it even [TS]

  makes sense to address it yeah so [TS]

  there's two ways you can go on this one [TS]

  is that from a hosting perspective it's [TS]

  a good idea not to encourage hecklers by [TS]

  by addressing them right so John [TS]

  ignoring the heckler is the way of [TS]

  saying don't heckle but in my show it's [TS]

  my show I'm going to pretend you don't [TS]

  exist on the other hand when is Siri get [TS]

  better so okay that that is a line of [TS]

  questioning that could have been brought [TS]

  up in the context of home pod or [TS]

  whatever and I think well but but again [TS]

  like when you have limited time on stage [TS]

  with Apple executives to ask questions [TS]

  there you have to have some degree of [TS]

  just predicting like you know what's a [TS]

  good question here like what's actually [TS]

  a good use of time and a question we're [TS]

  just going to give like a pretty canned [TS]

  PR like answer is not a good use of time [TS]

  because like what do you like what are [TS]

  they gonna say on stage [TS]

  what like do you honestly think like [TS]

  Phil Schiller is going to be on stage [TS]

  and be like yeah you know what you're [TS]

  right Syria isn't very good we're [TS]

  working on it like no like of course not [TS]

  like it's going to be an answer of you [TS]

  know even if you ask that question [TS]

  directly to them it's going to be a [TS]

  relatively you know information less [TS]

  answer of like well it's it's here's all [TS]

  the ways it's already world-leading and [TS]

  it's always getting better you know it's [TS]

  it's it's a PR question that's going to [TS]

  get a PR answer it's like all the [TS]

  stupid analyst questions on the on the [TS]

  earnings calls when you go make a TV [TS]

  it's like you know that kind of stuff [TS]

  that's not it's a useful question [TS]

  because you know they're not really [TS]

  going to give you an answer that you [TS]

  want so you might as well not even waste [TS]

  time on it and ask a better question so [TS]

  I think you can ask this question in a [TS]

  way they will get a non PR vague answer [TS]

  because Apple itself open the door to [TS]

  this line of questioning with their home [TS]

  pod announcement I said this in the last [TS]

  show too but to reiterate and further [TS]

  emphasize Apple's pitch for home pod was [TS]

  look at these two competitors Sonos and [TS]

  the Amazon echo so know it sounds good [TS]

  but it's dumb Amazon echo sounds like [TS]

  crap but is smart home pod sounds great [TS]

  and is smart typical great Apple sales [TS]

  pitch for the thing right but the own [TS]

  that so here's Apple opening the door [TS]

  but the only thing Apple demonstrated or [TS]

  in any way described both in the the [TS]

  live room where the press could hear it [TS]

  and in the slides they talked about it [TS]

  well we know how home pod sounds good [TS]

  because a whole bunch of people heard it [TS]

  and they said hey this thing sounds good [TS]

  it sounds you know as good or better [TS]

  than the Sonos which was the thing app I [TS]

  held up a sounding good but the pitch of [TS]

  home pod is unlike those two other [TS]

  devices this one sounds good and is [TS]

  smart right Apple itself is saying we're [TS]

  making a device that combines the best [TS]

  of these two things so the is smart part [TS]

  is your entree to say okay Apple you [TS]

  have presented us with home pod telling [TS]

  us it is going to be as smart as echo [TS]

  and sound as good as Sonos do you think [TS]

  Siri is currently a smart as echo or [TS]

  will it be getting better for home pod [TS]

  because it's not you know it's not a [TS]

  gotcha question like they haven't is the [TS]

  product isn't done yet like they did [TS]

  list a bunch of stuff that it's going to [TS]

  do on the slide here's all the things [TS]

  that home pod is going to do that are [TS]

  smart right so they put them up there [TS]

  but I think it's open question at this [TS]

  point okay like it gives them an [TS]

  opportunity to brag about the product [TS]

  they just announced they should say the [TS]

  good answer is this is going to you know [TS]

  home PI is going to be great it's going [TS]

  to be just as smart as Amazon echo it's [TS]

  going to do all these things so and so [TS]

  forth that's the answer to when is Siri [TS]

  going to get better it's going to say [TS]

  okay when home pod comes out Siri will [TS]

  be much better than it is now and they [TS]

  can explain all the reasons why or the [TS]

  progress they've made on Syria I feel [TS]

  like it is an opening for Apple to bro [TS]

  about the product they just announced [TS]

  but in in the stuff that they put out in [TS]

  the keynote and in every part of WWDC [TS]

  the only thing they demonstrated or [TS]

  pressed on at all was that it sounds [TS]

  good and the smarts they're like it'll [TS]

  be smart stresses we'll see which is [TS]

  fine like but now that's what I'm [TS]

  waiting for [TS]

  is your kind of work if this thing is [TS]

  just a Sonos you know if it's just a [TS]

  Sonos with like existing Siri built-in I [TS]

  mean I guess it's still smarter than [TS]

  Sonos you know but is it as smart as [TS]

  that go you know we'll see so I think [TS]

  this is this is the competitive question [TS]

  for the home pod Apple's pitch is clear [TS]

  we have to see if they can deliver yeah [TS]

  that's the thing like they really they [TS]

  showed us the home pod and they showed [TS]

  us why we should care about it and why [TS]

  it's cool but they didn't they didn't [TS]

  convince us like they didn't really like [TS]

  all they said was basically like it [TS]

  sounds great trust us and that's cool I [TS]

  mean the press hard press harder and [TS]

  they said it does sound good yep and [TS]

  that's great but but again but you know [TS]

  what you're saying is like that doesn't [TS]

  actually put it above where show nose is [TS]

  now all we have is a vague promise that [TS]

  it has Siri and it is smart but they [TS]

  didn't actually show that and I think [TS]

  you're right I think it's mostly because [TS]

  it's pretty clear that it's pretty far [TS]

  from being done not done yet so like [TS]

  they're hiding it if they could have [TS]

  demoed it they would have yeah I would [TS]

  honestly the the fact that it appears to [TS]

  be in such an early state now if they [TS]

  couldn't even demo a single Siri command [TS]

  but they say it's going to be shipping [TS]

  in December that actually sounds really [TS]

  aggressive to me I would be impressed if [TS]

  they hit that because it sure looks like [TS]

  it's a year away one of the well as [TS]

  December launches just in time for the [TS]

  holiday oh never mind March we are [TS]

  sponsored this week by betterment [TS]

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  investing made better all right [TS]

  WBC keynote and TV OS one of you picked [TS]

  up on and I it was not me a quote you'll [TS]

  be hearing a lot more about TV OS later [TS]

  this year and apparently it's a just shy [TS]

  nine minutes through the keynote [TS]

  interesting well first of all isn't hard [TS]

  to hear less about TV OS yeah it's a lot [TS]

  more though is it a lot we heard [TS]

  something about TV OS they're like look [TS]

  dark mode can turn on automatically at [TS]

  night [TS]

  that's something so it's nonzero and [TS]

  we're gonna be hearing a lot more about [TS]

  it later yeah I mean I guess that that [TS]

  means is gonna be like hardware and [TS]

  stuff like I'm sure that you know it [TS]

  would be nice to see 4k it would nice to [TS]

  see a redesign remote they're probably [TS]

  gonna tell or redesign remote oh you [TS]

  wanted to keep the current one I'm just [TS]

  like I wasn't even daring to think that [TS]

  I was just picturing the puck I'm like [TS]

  oh it'll finally be a puck that supports [TS]

  4k and HEV C and they'll be 4k content [TS]

  on the iTunes Store I didn't dare to [TS]

  even dream that they would fix that damn [TS]

  remote but I suppose they could I [TS]

  suspect the Apple TV remote is going to [TS]

  be looked upon in retrospect the same [TS]

  way the hockey puck Mouse is as like the [TS]

  worst design offence of the decade by [TS]

  Apple I really don't think it's that bad [TS]

  I will not say it's flawless by any [TS]

  stretch but it doesn't problem II near [TS]

  as much as it bothers pretty much [TS]

  everyone else in the world [TS]

  so I will never do the dented version [TS]

  the puck they they tried to like fix it [TS]

  they're like Oh puck the fuck is a [TS]

  problem so they put a little dent in [TS]

  like the button so you could feel for [TS]

  which side of is the top they should do [TS]

  that with the whole TV remote [TS]

  just put a dent and I guess you can't do [TS]

  it on a trackpad so I'd put a dent in [TS]

  the bottom side or something's you can [TS]

  feel for I mean yeah it's it's not great [TS]

  I'm not trying to say that it's grated [TS]

  flawless or anything like that but I [TS]

  just I really don't think it's that bad [TS]

  it works okay for me okay it is that I [TS]

  look better than the Apple TV remote [TS]

  your computer was like turning itself [TS]

  off randomly and you're like this is [TS]

  fine like this you might you might need [TS]

  to raise your expectations a bit of what [TS]

  technology should be especially for my [TS]

  evil you know like right this says [TS]

  whatever would be happy oh the thing I [TS]

  still use the Apple TV every day it is [TS]

  our primary TV device like the only [TS]

  things we ever use our TV for are the [TS]

  Apple TV and the switch and and so it's [TS]

  I use it all the time because why I'm so [TS]

  critical of it like one thing I would [TS]

  love to see in TV OS and this is thing [TS]

  like they say like you know be hearing [TS]

  more about TV iOS later this year [TS]

  actually all I want is hardware stuff [TS]

  like hardware changes I basically want a [TS]

  new remote 4k would be nice I don't have [TS]

  a 4k TV yet but it's probably going to [TS]

  happen with the next couple years so [TS]

  that would be nice and TV OS and maybe [TS]

  it's the hardware maybe it's a software [TS]

  I don't know it's just really slow I [TS]

  don't know why this is current hardware [TS]

  that isn't that old it's so slow I think [TS]

  the remote makes it feel slow it like [TS]

  because it's a clumsy if you don't like [TS]

  so by the way we always complain about [TS]

  the remote and I just want to [TS]

  re-emphasize this again Apple TV has an [TS]

  ability to learn remotes and if you are [TS]

  a lifetime TiVo customer like me you [TS]

  have extra TiVo remotes hanging around [TS]

  you can use an old TiVo remote with the [TS]

  Apple TV and makes it way better but um [TS]

  it doesn't have touchpad obviously but [TS]

  it has a five-way pad and I think [TS]

  clumsily swiping on that touchpad to [TS]

  move the focus feel slower than tap [TS]

  tapping on a digital you know right left [TS]

  up down Center d-pad so I attribute some [TS]

  of the slowest in that there's more with [TS]

  like hey I hit the little home button [TS]

  how long does it take for me to get [TS]

  out of this app and go back to the [TS]

  whatever screen that also feels slow but [TS]

  I tribute a lot of it to the remote well [TS]

  and some of it's clearly software some [TS]

  of it is like you know you'd like you [TS]

  you wake up the remote when you're [TS]

  sitting down and a few seconds later [TS]

  eventually you see the home screen okay [TS]

  swipe over to the thing you want oh [TS]

  nothing happened [TS]

  swipe swipe swipe swipe swipe swipe [TS]

  swipe swipe wait wait what's going on [TS]

  button button button swipe swipe swipe [TS]

  come on push everything what's going on [TS]

  wait wait wait [TS]

  and then BOOM everything happens all was [TS]

  queued up all that time is it come on [TS]

  like what year is this like it this is [TS]

  this device doesn't do that much like [TS]

  what what what is it doing [TS]

  is it conserving power all that time [TS]

  they're not using it why it's part of [TS]

  the wall like what is it doing I have no [TS]

  idea what it's doing yeah [TS]

  the sleep thing is the sleep thing is [TS]

  brutal like I mean there's no fans there [TS]

  just leave it on all the time I'll take [TS]

  the energy cost if it means that I don't [TS]

  have to wait for you know the internal [TS]

  seven seconds that it takes to be ready [TS]

  to respond to my commands but that's the [TS]

  things about why it like in 2017 for the [TS]

  most expensive TV connected box [TS]

  why am I ever waiting on the box for [TS]

  anything like why when I push the menu [TS]

  button to wake it up why does it take [TS]

  more than one second to become ready and [TS]

  most of that one second should be [TS]

  waiting for my TV to recognize the input [TS]

  like there is no reason it should take [TS]

  any time at all it's not doing that much [TS]

  I don't have that many apps on it I'm [TS]

  using the same like - over and over [TS]

  again like Netflix and plex that's it [TS]

  like what what is what is it doing so [TS]

  the other hardware thing I'm looking [TS]

  forward to is as alluded to in the the [TS]

  promotion stuff a output at 24 or 48 or [TS]

  whatever you know different frame rates [TS]

  so that movies can look correct and so [TS]

  it doesn't have to down sample [TS]

  everything or whatever do three to pull [TS]

  down to output everything at sixty Hertz [TS]

  and that will be great I don't know if [TS]

  that's in the cards I would assume it is [TS]

  but a lot of the things that could [TS]

  potentially that we talked about like [TS]

  why does it happen already do this so [TS]

  changing the output framerate is [TS]

  annoying because of HDMI and [TS]

  it's not an apple act experience [TS]

  although what marketers subscribe isn't [TS]

  exactly an apple like experience either [TS]

  one possible way to sort of deal with [TS]

  this is the same way LCD TVs dealt with [TS]

  this and the past and probably still do [TS]

  is to just take a really high frame rate [TS]

  that's a multiple of 24 this isn't you [TS]

  know you still ideally you should be [TS]

  able to support any reasonable frame [TS]

  rate but if you could just get 24 60 and [TS]

  30 or something that would go a long way [TS]

  so I'm I am looking forward to this is a [TS]

  lot of things that I would like to watch [TS]

  okay I had bought a blu-ray drive a [TS]

  while back because it was cheap to rip [TS]

  blu-rays so and I was like no well I [TS]

  have all the storage space why don't I [TS]

  lost Leslie rip them and have a way to [TS]

  watch any movie a blu-ray quality [TS]

  through Plex on my TV the problem is I [TS]

  have no device connected to my [TS]

  television that can read a ripped [TS]

  blu-ray and play it on my television at [TS]

  the correct 24 frames per second cadence [TS]

  for you know movies and stuff so I still [TS]

  have to put the blue area in the drive [TS]

  in my PlayStation 3 by the way which [TS]

  does output correct 24 frames per second [TS]

  cadence to my television which does [TS]

  display correctly and I can watch my [TS]

  boos the way I want to with plastic [TS]

  discs but I'm just waiting for maybe I [TS]

  have to wait for a new TV but it could [TS]

  be that Apple says now we're never going [TS]

  to support 24 frames per second on your [TS]

  old plasma TV get a new 4k TV with 240 [TS]

  or 120 Hertz refresh and hook it up to a [TS]

  new Apple TV and that's how we'll deal [TS]

  with it and I suppose I'll do that like [TS]

  Marco eventually fair enough but yeah [TS]

  we'll see what the announcements that [TS]

  are first coming include but apparently [TS]

  whenever the next grant or season starts [TS]

  if any of us choose to watch it which is [TS]

  dateable I can tell you one thing I'm [TS]

  not so yeah it's you guys if you want to [TS]

  watch it [TS]

  I certainly will but we'll see what [TS]

  happens but anyway apparently that'll be [TS]

  on the Apple TV I have to reserve all my [TS]

  TV watching time now for planet of the [TS]

  apps I didn't see the first one because [TS]

  I'm not an apple music subscriber but [TS]

  did you guys I haven't watched it's on [TS]

  my to-do list I I did not do my homework [TS]

  I did not watch planned out of the app [TS]

  really but I do plan to watch it I I [TS]

  think I should see it just [TS]

  to know what it is and to know whether L [TS]

  to know what it is and to know whether L [TS]

  like it or not I'm gonna have a somewhat [TS]

  interesting perspective maybe because [TS]

  I've never seen shark tank or any of the [TS]

  shows like shark tank so it might be [TS]

  slightly interesting for me to see it [TS]

  but I based on the reviews from our [TS]

  friends stuff so far I don't have high [TS]

  hopes but I do want to give it a chance [TS]

  yeah I'm gonna need a reason right now I [TS]

  don't have a reason and everyone who has [TS]

  seen it tells me it's bad so until I get [TS]

  a reason I will just let everyone else [TS]

  take that bullet for me fair enough all [TS]

  right [TS]

  iCloud storage prices Apple dropped the [TS]

  two terabyte iCloud storage price to [TS]

  $9.99 it eliminated one terabyte option [TS]

  so the one terabyte now is 2 terabytes [TS]

  it turns out Jason Snow had that upgrade [TS]

  happened to him one of you it sounds [TS]

  like had that upgrade happen as well yep [TS]

  came from back from that video you see [TS]

  pulled up my preference pane on my que [TS]

  guess what I got two terabytes now me [TS]

  too Merry Christmas and it actually and [TS]

  you can now share it with in families so [TS]

  I haven't actually tried this yet but [TS]

  TIFF and I have each been paying for the [TS]

  terabyte plan separately and we do have [TS]

  a family account so I want to try to see [TS]

  they might have just saved this 10 bucks [TS]

  a month do you know where you do that we [TS]

  mentioned it I actually mentioned the [TS]

  iCloud storage sharing on the last show [TS]

  but between then and now I never [TS]

  actually went onto my Mac and click [TS]

  around to try to figure out where you do [TS]

  that you happen to know I don't know [TS]

  family like manage family and the iCloud [TS]

  preferring Sam the geek and the chat is [TS]

  saying it requires iOS 11 which probably [TS]

  also means it requires high sierra and [TS]

  so as yeah so i'm this is this might be [TS]

  it has to wait till the fall yeah oh [TS]

  well can we also by the way this is not [TS]

  in the show notes but can we reconfirm [TS]

  that hi Sierra is a terrible damn name [TS]

  yeah I'm still not used to it no it's [TS]

  awesome [TS]

  alright pejorative rules sucks moving on [TS]

  and RuPaul's writes he hit regarding the [TS]

  Apple II GPU in the slide in the [TS]

  presentation in the in the keynote [TS]

  according to Andrew the pictured box is [TS]

  actually a sonnet eg FX box and we will [TS]

  put a link in the show notes to the box [TS]

  that we're talking about can you buy [TS]

  this so it says sign up for sonnet [TS]

  online shorter online store ship date so [TS]

  pair [TS]

  it is not available yet I mean you've [TS]

  been able to buy other similar boxes for [TS]

  a while now so it's not like this is a [TS]

  massive yeah you know thing that's [TS]

  that's all the sudden brand new maybe [TS]

  different maybe support for it in the OS [TS]

  is newer than that but the actual boxes [TS]

  are nothing new yeah people have been [TS]

  hacking this stuff together ever since [TS]

  Thunderbolt appeared even Thunderbolt 2 [TS]

  and by the way someone wrote in saying [TS]

  that if you're wondering if Thunderbolt [TS]

  2 is going to be officially supported by [TS]

  Apple for external GPUs the answer [TS]

  appears to be no Thunderbolt 3 only so [TS]

  oh well and by the way on that topic [TS]

  talk about more things that happen later [TS]

  than vici WABC Apple itself in one of [TS]

  the one of the sessions I think it was [TS]

  the AR or the VR thing or something put [TS]

  up a diagram that like with it with a [TS]

  graph that in no uncertain terms [TS]

  explained exactly how slow ton or [TS]

  Thunderbolt 3 is compared to like [TS]

  internal cards to say all right so does [TS]

  it's for programmers like you would [TS]

  think ok internal GPU external GPO it [TS]

  doesn't make that much of a difference [TS]

  it's like it's all good Thunderbolt 3 is [TS]

  really fast but it's not it's like a [TS]

  quarter of the speed of an internal card [TS]

  and maybe your application doesn't need [TS]

  that but if you're not careful and you [TS]

  don't realize that your application is [TS]

  shipping stuff to and from the card a [TS]

  lot you're thinking a way slower an [TS]

  external GPU in this session was trying [TS]

  to emphasize like this is something you [TS]

  may not need to think about before but [TS]

  suddenly now that you're sipping through [TS]

  a smaller straw think you know you may [TS]

  need to think about it here's how you [TS]

  can you know check your application to [TS]

  see if it's doing this thing it's you [TS]

  know Apple is not a unified coordinated [TS]

  beast so it's very possible that that [TS]

  could have happened and also that that [TS]

  the future Mac Pro comes with a next [TS]

  term GPU or something but it seems to me [TS]

  that it would be a much better story [TS]

  much better coherent story even if it's [TS]

  like you know a retrospective story or [TS]

  in hindsight to say and that's why the [TS]

  Mac Pro has multiple internal GPUs [TS]

  because we don't have to worry about [TS]

  limited Thunderbolt 3 been we've got the [TS]

  full 16 PCI Express Lanes and your apps [TS]

  will just be superfast all the time and [TS]

  there's your Mac Pro I hope that's the [TS]

  case [TS]

  yeah I mean that's gotta be the case [TS]

  because like if that wasn't the case the [TS]

  iMac pro would beat the Mac Pro in GPU [TS]

  throughput well there's no external [TS]

  stuff on my micro its all-in-one yeah so [TS]

  no I'm pretty you know the e GPU support [TS]

  is [TS]

  is clearly meant for laptops like that's [TS]

  really what this is for it's for pro [TS]

  customers who have pro GPU needs who are [TS]

  using a MacBook Pro and they and they [TS]

  want something they can like dock with [TS]

  that has a big GPU for certain things [TS]

  but if you're going to be really pushing [TS]

  it the answer is still going to be get a [TS]

  desktop and probably get a Mac Pro or at [TS]

  least my Mac Pro indeed all right uh [TS]

  mattias bessman writes in with some [TS]

  nitpicky follow up in into his credit he [TS]

  actually labeled it himself as nitpicky [TS]

  follow-up Apple did actually have a [TS]

  previous Bluetooth keep on stealing [TS]

  Hackett they wrote this in Apple Apple [TS]

  that did actually have a Bluetooth uh [TS]

  keyboard on pad previously the Apple [TS]

  wireless keyboard which is a one zero [TS]

  one six and this was in 2003 uh we will [TS]

  put a google image search in the show [TS]

  notes for your viewing pleasure [TS]

  apparently it was a thing in the past [TS]

  and this is remember the keyboard I [TS]

  remember the I remember seeing it I [TS]

  never bought a Mac that came with this [TS]

  but when I was Matt curious for the few [TS]

  years before about my first Mac this was [TS]

  the one that was in the stores that I [TS]

  would that I would play with and then [TS]

  and try it's the one with the with the [TS]

  white keys and the clear plastic case [TS]

  around them so I've got one of these I'm [TS]

  course again full unsub might write this [TS]

  keyboard is most notable for being [TS]

  perhaps the most disgusting keyboard [TS]

  apple has ever made because like the [TS]

  entire top of it is open it's kind of [TS]

  like a bathtub like a clear plastic [TS]

  little tub and the keys are in it and it [TS]

  as like food and gross stuff falls [TS]

  between the keys the keyboard you can [TS]

  see it's like a glass-bottom boat for [TS]

  the scum of your keyboard you can see [TS]

  all the crap it is the worst like [TS]

  nothing makes you feel more disgusting [TS]

  than having one of these keyboards than [TS]

  just like tilting it up and looking at [TS]

  the sides at the bottom like the worst [TS]

  it's amazing sounds wonderful ever since [TS]

  then they've been opaque for a reason [TS]

  and way thinner like this is giant like [TS]

  this thing do you believe talk about key [TS]

  travel like the keys alone or like three [TS]

  times the thickness of the half aluminum [TS]

  key ports I would still prefer that oh [TS]

  here we go the keys the keys on this car [TS]

  keyboard were not great by the way like [TS]

  this like I was using like the reason I [TS]

  use my Apple extend [TS]

  - up until our si stopped me from doing [TS]

  it this was not a good keyboard in any [TS]

  sense of the word if we just not get [TS]

  Marco started on keyboards which [TS]

  actually uh tangential real-time [TS]

  follow-up my MacBook adorable should [TS]

  arrive tomorrow oh you don't have it yet [TS]

  oh yeah once I know about it yeah no not [TS]

  until tomorrow unfortunately but uh and [TS]

  in knowing GPS it'll be the end of the [TS]

  darn day which is frost will like [TS]

  several problems yep personal problems [TS]

  if there are any uh okay moving on uh [TS]

  there was some anonymous feedback about [TS]

  the home pod screen and and we're [TS]

  putting them quotes and so to set a [TS]

  little bit of context um there is [TS]

  there's been a little bit of debate over [TS]

  whether or not the home pod has a screen [TS]

  on the top and I think that some people [TS]

  had said like there were some leaks [TS]

  beforehand that it either absolutely [TS]

  would or absolutely would not have a [TS]

  screen and whatever the leak was doesn't [TS]

  really matter and then when I when it [TS]

  was announced last week there was a lot [TS]

  of debate over whether or not what they [TS]

  showed is or is not a screen because all [TS]

  they really showed was this like Siri [TS]

  waveform on the top of the device this [TS]

  is parallel with like the the surface [TS]

  its resting on parallel with the floor [TS]

  it's the Siri looking waveform on the [TS]

  top is that really a scream like you [TS]

  could hypothetically present that just [TS]

  by by having some LEDs like a you know a [TS]

  handful of larger LED lights behind some [TS]

  sort of like translucent top [TS]

  can you really interact with that can [TS]

  you show anything on that screen or can [TS]

  you only show the waveform and nothing [TS]

  else and so and also complicating [TS]

  matters some people have said that it [TS]

  can also show a plus and minus for [TS]

  volume control that are touch sensitive [TS]

  so there's some speculation but is it [TS]

  it's actually a touchscreen right and so [TS]

  there was some debate about this gruber [TS]

  I don't remember what side he came down [TS]

  on it doesn't really matter but he said [TS]

  it's one thing there are many people who [TS]

  disagreed so an anonymous person wrote [TS]

  in and told it's told us the following [TS]

  the Siri waveform on the top of the [TS]

  device is an LED array covered by a [TS]

  circular feathered mask to prevent bleed [TS]

  and a diffuser or two each led is rather [TS]

  large about half a centimeter in [TS]

  diameter arranged in a somewhat circular [TS]

  pattern [TS]

  this is only to display the Siri [TS]

  waveform but it does change behavior in [TS]

  color based on the state of Siri and the [TS]

  device there are also plus and minus [TS]

  buttons like Marco was commenting on for [TS]

  volume control which appeared during [TS]

  music playback or when hovering your [TS]

  hand over the device these work [TS]

  similarly similarly to the waveform and [TS]

  that they are white LEDs covered by mask [TS]

  and diffuser the entire top panel is [TS]

  covered in glass this individual would [TS]

  consider the controls more like a [TS]

  capacitive more like a passive buttons [TS]

  rather than a full-on display however [TS]

  the entire top panel is capacitive so [TS]

  gestures could hypothetically be [TS]

  performed for additional controls like a [TS]

  tap double tap swipe et cetera and this [TS]

  seems to be true as of what we saw at [TS]

  dub dub I don't know where I come down [TS]

  on this like I don't think it's a screen [TS]

  in the sense that most people mean and [TS]

  that it can show really anything I mean [TS]

  if that's the screen then the Amazon [TS]

  echo has a screen because the Amika the [TS]

  echo also has a whole bunch of LEDs on [TS]

  top that show different states right so [TS]

  it's it's it's like a semantic I think [TS]

  it comes down to a semantic argument [TS]

  about what is or is not a screen and I [TS]

  don't think it really matters but this [TS]

  was certainly some interesting feedback [TS]

  about how supposedly this is all wired [TS]

  together under the hood yeah I mean [TS]

  that's that's that's not a screen that's [TS]

  indicator lights you know it's it's [TS]

  indicating state with lights like that [TS]

  that is very much not a screen that [TS]

  might still be very useful I mean the [TS]

  LEDs on the Amazon echo cylinders are [TS]

  very useful they're they're quite nice [TS]

  they they do indicate the state of the [TS]

  device and they provide useful feedback [TS]

  so it's not to say that this is bad [TS]

  however I would never in a million your [TS]

  status has a screen and I think in this [TS]

  day and age I think what we're seeing [TS]

  from this market is maybe there's [TS]

  something to having a screen there are [TS]

  certainly cases where at least having [TS]

  some kind of screen output would be nice [TS]

  such as watching a timer countdown so it [TS]

  depends I think if this is very early [TS]

  Hardware probably you know this is [TS]

  probably why you couldn't even you know [TS]

  demo Siri and stuff on it so this could [TS]

  change that could be a placeholder maybe [TS]

  maybe the software UI for the final [TS]

  screen that will be there wasn't ready [TS]

  yet and so they just put this thing in [TS]

  there as a temper [TS]

  anything to show the demo units during [TS]

  this like listening test and stuff we [TS]

  don't actually know yet it does seem [TS]

  like a lot of stuff to put in there - [TS]

  and have like a big touch panel - then [TS]

  not have at least a small OLED screen [TS]

  below like I'm thinking basically have [TS]

  it be like you know that roughly the [TS]

  capabilities of an Apple watch face you [TS]

  know like not having a ton of smarts and [TS]

  a time like you know lots of apps and [TS]

  everything but just like some display of [TS]

  some things clock weather timers you [TS]

  know basic stuff like that so that when [TS]

  you when you ask for things it can be [TS]

  more useful that would be nice however [TS]

  if the focus of this is going to remain [TS]

  pretty much mostly for music and then [TS]

  just a little bit for smart home stuff [TS]

  basically the way it was presented to us [TS]

  then it doesn't maybe need a screen like [TS]

  if the idea of this is to have it in a [TS]

  big white IKEA room with nothing in it [TS]

  and you're looking at it from 10 feet [TS]

  away when you ask it to play something [TS]

  by Drake or whoever that I don't know [TS]

  anything about music [TS]

  at least modern music then it doesn't [TS]

  then it wouldn't need a screen [TS]

  especially one on top because you won't [TS]

  be able to see it from 10 feet away but [TS]

  if you're if you if it is going to [TS]

  compete also in the smart assistant area [TS]

  which I think it should and I would like [TS]

  it to then I don't think for a three [TS]

  hundred and fifty dollar product I don't [TS]

  think that's good enough I I think it [TS]

  should have a small screen that can [TS]

  actually do things like display timers [TS]

  and so I hope this is just a placeholder [TS]

  hardware thing until they get the final [TS]

  Hardware done or it's also possible this [TS]

  tip is complete garbage Jen total BS and [TS]

  maybe that was actually a bitmap screen [TS]

  but from the way people were describing [TS]

  it who saw it who had hands-on or if you [TS]

  know but had hands-on but people were [TS]

  like in the room with it yep and from [TS]

  what we saw this does sound like a [TS]

  pretty plausible explanation for what [TS]

  that was sure and why there's why there [TS]

  is now this kind of disagreement on [TS]

  whether and I has a screen because it [TS]

  kind of looks like one but this explains [TS]

  it pretty well so does the echo have a [TS]

  touchpad on top of it no it has the the [TS]

  whole top of the echo is is a turnable [TS]

  knob so you can turn it for volume which [TS]

  is very nice and it has a physical [TS]

  channel yeah and it has two physical [TS]

  buttons on top a mute and like a [TS]

  like an action buttons like if a timers [TS]

  beeping you can hit the action button it [TS]

  stops it rather than having to say [TS]

  ├Člook stop so on the Google home it [TS]

  seems like they're doing a very similar [TS]

  thing to the Apple thing where it is a [TS]

  bunch of colored LEDs like light [TS]

  changing LEDs underneath the diffuser [TS]

  type thing and for volume control in the [TS]

  Google home you trace out a circle along [TS]

  the line of the circle of elseit like it [TS]

  basically it's a touch pad like a very [TS]

  crude trackpad type thing an apple [TS]

  having a whole glass top and according [TS]

  if we should this thing is to be [TS]

  believed supporting not just arbitrary [TS]

  gestures like you would on a trackpad on [TS]

  the glass top of it but also apparently [TS]

  like hovering so the most that proximity [TS]

  detection like when your hand gets close [TS]

  to it the plus and the minus is light up [TS]

  yeah that definitely makes me think that [TS]

  this is not a temporary piece of [TS]

  hardware but like the day but this is [TS]

  this is a design that they have done [TS]

  whether they whether this is an earlier [TS]

  design and they have already changed [TS]

  their mind but they don't have a [TS]

  manufacturer and they're going to put a [TS]

  screen I'm not sure but the second thing [TS]

  is what marketers point out they can't [TS]

  put a screen on this to any great effect [TS]

  unless they totally redesign because a [TS]

  screen that faces the ceiling it's [TS]

  better than nothing but it's pretty crap [TS]

  compared to you know the Amazon whatever [TS]

  show thing like you can't glance at this [TS]

  from across the kitchen to see it your [TS]

  timer is because you probably won't even [TS]

  be able to see the top of it to see the [TS]

  time or time needs to be facing you you [TS]

  need the perfectly like multiple timers [TS]

  you can't sort of see it at an angle [TS]

  depending on where you nestle this thing [TS]

  in the corner so they need an entirely [TS]

  different device if they're going to go [TS]

  screen all which makes me think this [TS]

  thing on the top will be a thing that [TS]

  you can gesture and wiggle your fingers [TS]

  on and have some status information on [TS]

  but not a thing that Apple expects you [TS]

  to look at because it's just in the [TS]

  wrong place we are sponsored this week [TS]

  by Indo Chino go to Indo Chino calm and [TS]

  use code ATP to get any premium suit for [TS]

  just 379 Indo Chino makes [TS]

  made-to-measure suits you actually take [TS]

  your measurements and there's great [TS]

  videos to show you how to do this on [TS]

  their site and everything it's very very [TS]

  easy to do and they custom make a suit [TS]

  so you know you can get a generic [TS]

  off-the-rack suit and it'll it'll [TS]

  probably fit okay you know if you ever [TS]

  like rented a tux for a wedding or like [TS]

  you've seen this you know probably most [TS]

  suits that most people have [TS]

  are not really tailored there's [TS]

  off-the-rack and they fit you okay at [TS]

  best but there's always like some part [TS]

  that's a little too baggy you're a [TS]

  little too tight or doesn't flatter you [TS]

  well so one option you have is you can [TS]

  get them custom tailored and that's good [TS]

  that's better than nothing but there's [TS]

  only so much the custom tailoring can do [TS]

  to a suit that wasn't really made for [TS]

  you [TS]

  Indo Chino has completely made to order [TS]

  suits so this is made for you from the [TS]

  start so it fits you better it looks [TS]

  better and you feel better in it then [TS]

  anything else ever could and everybody [TS]

  looks better when their clothes are more [TS]

  fit to them and Indo Chino makes this [TS]

  easy at an incredible price that's [TS]

  available to you so you choose all your [TS]

  different fabrics options love health [TS]

  styles linings there's so many great [TS]

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  they have suited up hundreds of [TS]

  thousands of people and they are now the [TS]

  largest made-to-measure menswear brand [TS]

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  you given your measurements you place [TS]

  your order and it arrives in just a few [TS]

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  Indo Chino suit for just 379 at Indo [TS]

  Chino calm when using code ATP at [TS]

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  shipping is free so once again check out [TS]

  Indo Chino comm use promo code ATP to [TS]

  get any premium suit for just 379 with [TS]

  free shipping this is an incredible deal [TS]

  for a suit that will fit you better than [TS]

  anything off the rack ever could thank [TS]

  you so much to endo Chino for sponsoring [TS]

  our show all right so moving on to iPad [TS]

  we have a bunch of things to talk about [TS]

  but about the iPad and some of it we'll [TS]

  cover this week and I think some of it [TS]

  will cover next week because we have [TS]

  some food stories to tell but a friend [TS]

  of the show serenity Caldwell has [TS]

  written a lot about the iPad has used [TS]

  the new iPad quite a bit and has tweeted [TS]

  about the iPad a fair bit so I'm just [TS]

  going to kind of shock it approach some [TS]

  of the things she's talked about one of [TS]

  the things she was speaking of now [TS]

  serenity if you don't know her is a very [TS]

  talented illustrator I don't know if [TS]

  she's like professionally trained or not [TS]

  but Tamiya she's really really good at [TS]

  it and so she has [TS]

  some very strong and in in in good [TS]

  opinions about the pencil in a way that [TS]

  I would never be able to because I don't [TS]

  know how to draw anything but stick [TS]

  figures so so any was saying that the [TS]

  pencil has always been 240 Hertz on both [TS]

  old and new iPad pros Lightroom it [TS]

  samples a 240 Hertz right but the [TS]

  difference is is that the touch input on [TS]

  and in in bear correct me if I get this [TS]

  wrong the touch input on the old pros [TS]

  was much slower than 120 Hertz is that [TS]

  right yeah touch was sampled at I [TS]

  believe only 60 because touch I believe [TS]

  was sampled with the rest of the display [TS]

  only the pencil was sampled at the super [TS]

  high rate I think I know at least the [TS]

  pencil was but I think only the pencil [TS]

  was and then also the framerate of the [TS]

  display of the entire UI was 60 frames [TS]

  per second I think she's saying that [TS]

  touch was 120 okay so no matter it says [TS]

  in her tweet you know so it's the [TS]

  difference between input and output [TS]

  touch input was 120 pencil to 40 but [TS]

  output was only 60 so there you go the [TS]

  point we're driving at is the particular [TS]

  numbers don't actually matter that much [TS]

  it's just the point it's just that it's [TS]

  all better now [TS]

  so so serenity continues you know that [TS]

  was great info for predicting lines in [TS]

  touch but it couldn't render the input [TS]

  at the rate it was being given with [TS]

  these new pros the screen can now output [TS]

  at 120 Hertz so touches at par pencil [TS]

  input is closer to par less prediction [TS]

  and more accuracy and so there's a [TS]

  series of tweets that we'll put in the [TS]

  show notes talking about all this and [TS]

  one of them if I open these up I believe [TS]

  she has a video do we have that here the [TS]

  video of her showing the difference [TS]

  between the two different devices the [TS]

  old iPad pro and the new one if we don't [TS]

  have that in the show notes and I'll try [TS]

  to dig it up but uh it's just it's it's [TS]

  in some rates damned impressive it [TS]

  really really is it's super duper [TS]

  impressive yeah this is the kind of [TS]

  thing that I I wish I used the pencil [TS]

  more I wish I had that kind of [TS]

  sensibility and habit I don't but I wish [TS]

  I did because seeing serenity do stuff [TS]

  with it in person everybody see like wow [TS]

  it's like I mean first of all I guess [TS]

  she's really good that's but you know [TS]

  it's typically it's a [TS]

  you know the talent of the person is way [TS]

  more important than the tools and most [TS]

  of these things but just has a nerd [TS]

  looking at the tools wow they're [TS]

  impressive wickets I could not believe [TS]

  the latency and and just the the [TS]

  smoothness of it it it is incredible and [TS]

  if you are a heavy pencil user I highly [TS]

  suggest you consider upgrading your iPad [TS]

  because it is it is remarkably different [TS]

  like I was able to see it side-by-side [TS]

  and and it really is a a big difference [TS]

  don't tell my wife because then I have [TS]

  to buy other iPad so yeah this the [TS]

  sample-rate thing like it may seem weird [TS]

  to people that both the previous and the [TS]

  new iPads are sampling at a faster rate [TS]

  than the screen could display because [TS]

  it's true both of them because the you [TS]

  know the pencils are 240 and now the [TS]

  screen is only 120 and back then the [TS]

  pencil was 240 the screen is only 60 [TS]

  what good what good is it to sample if [TS]

  your output is only a fraction of that [TS]

  frame rate and as certainty points out [TS]

  it's about knowing where the implement [TS]

  whether it be your finger or the pencil [TS]

  is so you can make predictions about the [TS]

  line it's kind of like client-side [TS]

  prediction and first-person shooters and [TS]

  that you want it to feel like there's [TS]

  less latency than there is and so as the [TS]

  pencil list is gliding along even though [TS]

  you don't get to display this frame and [TS]

  you don't get to display this frame but [TS]

  you're sampling it fast enough that you [TS]

  know okay now I know where it is and [TS]

  even time to render this frame and so it [TS]

  reduces the perceived latency and [TS]

  surroundings number earth were twenty [TS]

  milliseconds versus fifty so the old [TS]

  pencil was 50 milliseconds the new one [TS]

  is 20 and the pencils being sampled at [TS]

  exactly the same rate 240 Hertz on both [TS]

  the old and the new the difference is [TS]

  all about the display can now refresh [TS]

  more frequently and once again referring [TS]

  to that I was at the Microsoft video up [TS]

  with their little test demo device where [TS]

  they can scale the latency from like a [TS]

  hundred to ten to one all right so this [TS]

  have the latency less than you know so [TS]

  it was it got cut and cut in half even [TS]

  more more than half how close are we to [TS]

  an actual pencil which is zero [TS]

  milliseconds latency in the demo video [TS]

  we'll put a link in the show notes 10 [TS]

  mil [TS]

  Ekans still feels better than then [TS]

  obviously better than 100 and probably [TS]

  better than 20 one millisecond looks a [TS]

  lot better than 10 so if you want to say [TS]

  like how close are we for this being [TS]

  just like real pencil we're getting [TS]

  close but we're still in order of [TS]

  magnitude off we're still you know 20 [TS]

  versus one so hold on tight for I guess [TS]

  you know five years from now we can get [TS]

  it down from 20 milliseconds to five or [TS]

  something and we'll start to be in the [TS]

  ballpark and then things start to get [TS]

  really interesting also one more reason [TS]

  why you want to sample the pencil at a [TS]

  faster rate than just the display [TS]

  possibly is that if you're making if [TS]

  you're drawing very very like big lines [TS]

  quickly so like you're moving there's a [TS]

  lot of motion happening if you're only [TS]

  sampling it at 60 Hertz you might or [TS]

  even hundred twenty Hertz like if you're [TS]

  drawing really fast big squiggly lines [TS]

  the the number of points that you're [TS]

  capturing might be further apart than [TS]

  the pixels and so you have to then if [TS]

  you're drawing a line like that from the [TS]

  software side you just have to [TS]

  interpolate you have to write well it [TS]

  went from this dot to this dot and we'll [TS]

  assume it's going to be a smooth curve [TS]

  between those two dots and the higher [TS]

  sampling rate is the less interpolation [TS]

  you have to do and the more the more [TS]

  you're actually capturing what the [TS]

  movement was that the artist was doing [TS]

  if they're making a really big fast [TS]

  stroke yeah and it take time to render [TS]

  frames to you so you always have to pick [TS]

  like okay tell me where all the inputs [TS]

  are because I'm going to start doing the [TS]

  work to draw the screen and then it says [TS]

  okay I got all your inputs and that [TS]

  input if it was exactly the same frame [TS]

  rate as a screen you might fall on a [TS]

  boundary where like oh I would have [TS]

  liked to wait three more milliseconds [TS]

  and get the next input and that would [TS]

  you know that would be a better [TS]

  prediction but it turns out there you [TS]

  know they weren't lined up in the credit [TS]

  video games have a lot of problems with [TS]

  this like in terms of the game engine [TS]

  trying to get its work done at just the [TS]

  right time to give the rest of the [TS]

  system time to render out that frame you [TS]

  don't want big gaps and so this is also [TS]

  inviting the ARV are things where they [TS]

  put up a big like sort of a like a Gantt [TS]

  chart and Microsoft Project of like all [TS]

  the different things that are happening [TS]

  in a system and you don't want to have [TS]

  big gaps that you want everything to [TS]

  finish just in time to get the optimal [TS]

  frame rate out [TS]

  but for the optimal experience and same [TS]

  thing with those uh was the Nvidia I [TS]

  think g-sync thing where they try to [TS]

  synchronize the the refresh of the [TS]

  monitor with the game engine again to [TS]

  reduce those gaps so you get a smoother [TS]

  tear free you know drawing at variable [TS]

  frame rates instead of having like a 60 [TS]

  Hertz uh vertical blanking interval [TS]

  holdover from the CRT days doing away [TS]

  with that and trying to get the engine [TS]

  in the screen all in the same page [TS]

  having more samples also makes it more [TS]

  likely that you will be able to get a [TS]

  recent recent input close to the optimal [TS]

  window for handing off to the system to [TS]

  render and display and speaking of those [TS]

  sorts of things Joe LeBlanc writes in [TS]

  and saying people are preferring 120 [TS]

  Hertz huh displays in blind tests and [TS]

  this appears to be gamer related in fact [TS]

  the the actual title vast majority of [TS]

  gamers prefer 120 Hertz monitors but uh [TS]

  people like them although I did use that [TS]

  it's somewhere I feel like I heard some [TS]

  people saying that it kind of made them [TS]

  a little queasy which is interesting I [TS]

  hypothetically may have seen one of [TS]

  these iPads very briefly and I liked it [TS]

  but I haven't used it for a long time [TS]

  mark oh you received yours today [TS]

  yesterday yesterday okay and what do you [TS]

  think it is ridiculously good it is so [TS]

  good not only is a faster than John's [TS]

  Mac Pro but it is it is just so good in [TS]

  so many ways so you know I'm not a heavy [TS]

  iPad user I use my iPad lightly but [TS]

  frequently like I sold my old one on [TS]

  Twitter about 24 hours before my new one [TS]

  was going to arrive so I went like 24 [TS]

  hours without having an iPad and I [TS]

  actually really missed it and I never [TS]

  thought like two years ago I would never [TS]

  I never would have guessed that I would [TS]

  be in that state what really changed the [TS]

  iPad for me what what what you know and [TS]

  for everyone this is a different thing [TS]

  with what really made me get the iPad [TS]

  finally after years was the combination [TS]

  of having really great speakers and the [TS]

  smart Keyboard and basically leaving the [TS]

  smart Keyboard permanently attached [TS]

  combined with really great speaker so [TS]

  that it basically became my kitchen [TS]

  computer because it plays podcasts I can [TS]

  look stuff up if I have [TS]

  clicking off a recipe online I can look [TS]

  I can hold the recipe there I can browse [TS]

  the web lime waiting for coffee to roast [TS]

  and like it's just having it always in [TS]

  the keyboard made that difference for me [TS]

  and having the great speakers made it by [TS]

  far the best podcast player that you can [TS]

  have in a kitchen because you know [TS]

  overcast you know the experience of [TS]

  using overcast through something like [TS]

  Sonos or Alexa is not great and and [TS]

  using the app is always going to be [TS]

  better than that by a mile and the [TS]

  speakers are really good and the [TS]

  keyboard puts it up in a nice position [TS]

  for like standing up at counter use so [TS]

  it's just great I very much enjoy the [TS]

  iPad for that and then like you know if [TS]

  we're like watching some you know low [TS]

  mental effort TV at night I will bring [TS]

  the iPad over to the couch and it'll be [TS]

  my couch computer like what everyone [TS]

  else in the world has done for years so [TS]

  this is basically the me discovering [TS]

  what everyone else discovered with the [TS]

  iPad a long time ago so anyway I now [TS]

  like the iPad even though I'm not using [TS]

  it to get much work done [TS]

  I enjoy it as a you know basic [TS]

  entertainment device and a light work [TS]

  device anyway so the new hardware is [TS]

  ridiculously awesome you know in general [TS]

  away in general it you're not waiting [TS]

  for anything and I use I'm using the iOS [TS]

  11 beta first thing I do is all the beta [TS]

  because I was using it on my other one [TS]

  because this is clearly you know [TS]

  something that that that I want to be [TS]

  and I want to get used to it I want to [TS]

  learn it and the iOS 11 beta is buggy [TS]

  and slow and slaughters the battery [TS]

  nobody should be using the iOS 11 beta I [TS]

  am using it but nobody should it is it [TS]

  is a terrible idea to put this beta on [TS]

  any device that you rely on or care [TS]

  about at all [TS]

  it also apparently has been breaking [TS]

  some people's devices so again I really [TS]

  don't recommend that anybody install the [TS]

  beta but I did and so I can't really [TS]

  judge things like battery life and even [TS]

  performance like the beta is really slow [TS]

  and it was really slow on my old iPad [TS]

  but on the new one it's like [TS]

  substantially those will be faster [TS]

  because the hardware so much better if [TS]

  you do anything heavy on the iPad any if [TS]

  you if you were just a heavy iPad [TS]

  user I strongly suggest you check it out [TS]

  and this I should clarify also this is [TS]

  the 10.5 I do not get 12.9 because for [TS]

  my aforementioned use of basically like [TS]

  casual plus light work I think even the [TS]

  12.9 fans would agree the d 10.5 is the [TS]

  size to get for that the twelve point [TS]

  nine is the size to get if you are a [TS]

  heavy iPad productivity user and you [TS]

  want to full screen app side by side on [TS]

  a regular basis and you don't really [TS]

  need to carry it around a whole lot then [TS]

  the twelve point on is for you but [TS]

  that's not going to be most people most [TS]

  people detent the ten point five is the [TS]

  size to get and this is all everything [TS]

  I've just said is not even mentioning [TS]

  the 120 Hertz display but let me tell [TS]

  you when you see the 120 Hertz display [TS]

  it ruins everything else for you forever [TS]

  it is as big to a lot of people I think [TS]

  or will be as big 12 people as the [TS]

  retina transition was you know I'm glad [TS]

  you qualified that because had I [TS]

  hypothetically spent a little time with [TS]

  one of these last week I came into it [TS]

  the for my first impression was me [TS]

  then I saw it being used for a while and [TS]

  hypothetically I saw it being used for a [TS]

  while I was like actually this is pretty [TS]

  impressive and where I left it not [TS]

  having used one even hypothetically for [TS]

  more than a few minutes was this is [TS]

  important and it's a bigger deal than I [TS]

  initially thought [TS]

  but I a lot of people have been saying [TS]

  it's as big as retina perhaps I'll feel [TS]

  that way later but sitting here now [TS]

  after only brief usage it is certainly [TS]

  the most impressive thing that I've seen [TS]

  in a long time a la retina but I didn't [TS]

  think it was as big as retina but we'll [TS]

  see what I feel like in whatever I get [TS]

  my hands on one of these eventually one [TS]

  day or if the phone for example has them [TS]

  you know something like that [TS]

  it isn't as big as retina in in like the [TS]

  sense of like looking at it if you just [TS]

  look at a screen shot you know you don't [TS]

  see it it is basically the motion [TS]

  version of retina it's like that's [TS]

  interesting what I'm looking at it yeah [TS]

  any kind of motion any animation any [TS]

  touch input scrolling especially [TS]

  scrolling text like a lot like if you're [TS]

  reading a web page you notice that like [TS]

  because when you're scrolling the text [TS]

  blur is less so if you're reading while [TS]

  scrolling like it's it's a noticeable [TS]

  difference even just like moving page to [TS]

  page in springboard just like like [TS]

  that's the first thing I did when I got [TS]

  it before right right before I sold the [TS]

  beta was I just like swipe back and [TS]

  forth on springboard like between my two [TS]

  pigs of actions like whoa it's so smooth [TS]

  it really is it is a way bigger gain [TS]

  than I thought it would be you know III [TS]

  didn't think it would be that noticeable [TS]

  but it really is that noticeable and [TS]

  yeah I mean if I had to pick either only [TS]

  having retina or only having 120 Hertz I [TS]

  pick retina every time but we already [TS]

  have right now yeah right retinas a done [TS]

  deal now like it well tell it to the [TS]

  MacBook Air but for the most part [TS]

  because a done deal now and so now we [TS]

  now that we've all established that [TS]

  we've had that we can move on from that [TS]

  now Wow [TS]

  120 Hertz is that that level of [TS]

  advancement and it won't be as high for [TS]

  some people for me though I really think [TS]

  it is on that magnitude I think we [TS]

  comparison to retina is extremely apt [TS]

  because just like retina I guarantee you [TS]

  there are people who you will put this [TS]

  thing in front of who have no idea that [TS]

  is 120 Hertz will not be able to [TS]

  distinguish between the two and will not [TS]

  care about it like sure I've shown a lot [TS]

  of people Retina screens I like don't [TS]

  you see how different these screens are [TS]

  these pixels are the size of boulders [TS]

  and you can't even see them here they'd [TS]

  be like huh like the thing again in the [TS]

  TV parlance saying that they are much [TS]

  more likely no to say that screens [TS]

  brighter they they don't like some [TS]

  people just don't care about retina they [TS]

  don't see it you pointed out to him look [TS]

  at the text look at the serif see how [TS]

  they like oh yeah I don't care now it [TS]

  could be of those same people who don't [TS]

  care get used to it and can't go back to [TS]

  the other thing but it could be that [TS]

  they're just always like well that's not [TS]

  not important to me or my vision is not [TS]

  acute enough for me to be able to know [TS]

  such differences 120 Hertz is just like [TS]

  that some people will be like but how [TS]

  can you not it's just like what Marco [TS]

  said before about drawing with the [TS]

  pencil when you scroll really fast if [TS]

  you've only got 60 frames per second it [TS]

  could be that the line that was [TS]

  previously in the middle of the screen [TS]

  in the next frame is at the top of the [TS]

  screen so your device shows two frames [TS]

  line in the middle and line at the top [TS]

  and you get to see nope [TS]

  in between despite the fact that if you [TS]

  were taking a piece of paper and moving [TS]

  it by that same speed you would see more [TS]

  positions in between right and so 120 [TS]

  Hertz gives you more frames in between [TS]

  makes it appear smoother and I'll bet [TS]

  they're people you show that to you know [TS]

  look at the slow motion look looks the [TS]

  Contra celerity be like oh alright I [TS]

  guess that's nice oh but so I think a [TS]

  retina is perfectly app it's a thing [TS]

  that's going to mean so much to certain [TS]

  geeks and other people will absolutely [TS]

  take for granted and I think that [TS]

  everyone will just become accustomed to [TS]

  so that if you fast forward many years [TS]

  like say we get the screen up to 240 and [TS]

  you pull out it's too bad we never had a [TS]

  30 frames per second because iOS is [TS]

  always aiming for 60 wasn't it 60 from [TS]

  the beginning and earlier that's right [TS]

  like if we had 30 and compared that to a [TS]

  240 people like oh how did you ever use [TS]

  this 13 for a second thing it's so [TS]

  terrible I think it's back to this this [TS]

  gamer story here I mentioned in the last [TS]

  show like gamers always obsessing about [TS]

  framerate and the question was like what [TS]

  is the point of diminishing returns like [TS]

  should you get a system that can play [TS]

  this game you know at 500 frames per [TS]

  second or once you pass 60 or so like [TS]

  does it not matter anymore and that's [TS]

  what gamers are is obsessed with and [TS]

  this this test of under 20 Hertz [TS]

  monitors I was trying to figure out like [TS]

  asking these gamers who are presumably [TS]

  very sensitive to frame rates and their [TS]

  first-person shooters and everything one [TS]

  of the questions was can you even tell [TS]

  like they put them in front of a screen [TS]

  I'm not going to tell you if this is one [TS]

  of the 2,100 Hertz one of the 60 Hertz [TS]

  one can you even tell if the screen [TS]

  you're in front of is 120 or 60 and most [TS]

  of them could not all of them though but [TS]

  most of them is like 88% could say oh [TS]

  yeah I've correctly identified the [TS]

  screen that I'm using this is a 120 and [TS]

  this is a 60 so the fact that there even [TS]

  some gamers who couldn't tell shows and [TS]

  by the way this was a game obviously [TS]

  this that with a frame rate that exceeds [TS]

  60 so they would you know it would look [TS]

  different Thanks sometimes it's not even [TS]

  that easy to tell any other question for [TS]

  the gamers perspective is like did I do [TS]

  better on the screen with the higher [TS]

  framerate and the methodology this [TS]

  article is not conclusive because there [TS]

  can you know have a few people playing [TS]

  something whatever that's what they want [TS]

  to know is like does this make me a [TS]

  better player or not and that probably [TS]

  all comes down with what it's used to [TS]

  but for things like drawing with the [TS]

  pencil it's pretty clear that you know [TS]

  if you're drawing with something in the [TS]

  line you're tracing lags behind your [TS]

  cursor by twice as much on one device [TS]

  another you're going to like the other [TS]

  one better but the fact that most people [TS]

  can tell shows that maybe the point of [TS]

  diminishing returns first-person [TS]

  shooters maybe hovering somewhere past [TS]

  60 or whatever but that people can can [TS]

  see the difference especially with very [TS]

  fast motions pretty easily if you're [TS]

  looking for if you know what to look for [TS]

  you have the two devices there and you [TS]

  move your finger arm you can totally see [TS]

  the difference which makes you think [TS]

  that you know where where is the limit [TS]

  on this for seeing the difference in [TS]

  terms of human visual acuity is would [TS]

  240 would we be able to tell adrims [TS]

  between 240 and 120 and look at it and [TS]

  go oh wow I can really see that 120 [TS]

  looks like it's all stuttery and this [TS]

  one is smooth as butter right or is [TS]

  there a point after which you know we [TS]

  can't tell anymore and you'd put the two [TS]

  devices side-by-side and you scroll them [TS]

  as much as you want any but I can't tell [TS]

  is this one 5000 every second in this [TS]

  one is 2,000 I can't tell anymore so we [TS]

  may be approaching that I'm not sure [TS]

  someone should write in about the human [TS]

  visual system and tell us at what point [TS]

  will be side by side scrolling test stop [TS]

  working on humans and that's where Apple [TS]

  can stop their work but in the meantime [TS]

  they they should keep going yeah I mean [TS]

  I would even go further to say like this [TS]

  is so impressive that first of all I [TS]

  think the reason why maybe some people [TS]

  this makes them feel weird and there [TS]

  actually is an accessibility option to [TS]

  to restrict to cap the framerate at 60 [TS]

  Hertz which is probably for this reason [TS]

  in addition to looking really cool it's [TS]

  jarring how different looks the first [TS]

  time you see it and the first time you [TS]

  you you touch it and move and you see an [TS]

  animation it actually is like jarring [TS]

  and it's kind of like the first time you [TS]

  see a like high frame rate movie and it [TS]

  like the soap opera effect on TVs the [TS]

  charm of so much like it's kind of like [TS]

  that but but like you know the the [TS]

  computer interaction version that we're [TS]

  like you're looking at you're like oh [TS]

  that's this is like surreal in some way [TS]

  it's it's a very jarring thing to see [TS]

  but I would so I will go as far as to [TS]

  say I like it so much it makes such a [TS]

  big difference that between the iMac pro [TS]

  and the Mac Pro if one of them somehow [TS]

  supports this on its display but the [TS]

  other one doesn't this might be enough [TS]

  to evince me too [TS]

  to make a decision one way or the other [TS]

  on that like in the same way that when [TS]

  the 5k iMac came out I gave up my [TS]

  cylinder Mac Pro because I wanted [TS]

  desktop Retina so badly and that was the [TS]

  only way to get it at that time at that [TS]

  size this this is that big of a deal to [TS]

  me now that I've seen it now that I [TS]

  played with it like now if the iMac pro [TS]

  se say the iMac Pro can do it like maybe [TS]

  the built-in screen can use the [TS]

  advantages of an internal bus and [TS]

  everything say the CDI Mac Pro can do [TS]

  120 Hertz but the Mac Pro over some [TS]

  cables some separate display can't I'll [TS]

  get the mi Pro for that reason alone [TS]

  that's how good that's how good this is [TS]

  I might consider that as well although [TS]

  the the Mac Pro is further hindered by [TS]

  the potential rumors of 8k because [TS]

  member we were just talking about boy [TS]

  when will we be able to do 5k at 60 [TS]

  frames per second over a cable it's like [TS]

  surprise 8 km 120 hearts where's your [TS]

  God now yeah like that's a lot of damn [TS]

  pixels coming over it's a there's almost [TS]

  no hope and that's why Marcos is right [TS]

  to like if you're gonna pin your hopes [TS]

  on anything pinch on the thing where [TS]

  they have everything of the box they can [TS]

  hide the two ugly cables and the timing [TS]

  chip and all that other stuff like they [TS]

  could conceivably pull it off but even [TS]

  then like the GPU starts to weep at a [TS]

  certain point like start doing the math [TS]

  that is a lot of pixels per second yeah [TS]

  it's it is a difficult challenge and [TS]

  honestly I would imagine that it is more [TS]

  perceptible on a device that you're [TS]

  constantly touching and swiping maybe if [TS]

  you have a you know the Apple touch [TS]

  Mouse and you're swiping for scrolling [TS]

  it would start to show up but I do [TS]

  boy that's that's that I know that's [TS]

  that's a difficult I have to Apple touch [TS]

  pointing devices one on each out of my [TS]

  keyboard yeah I mean and you're not [TS]

  drawing on your Mac screen with a pencil [TS]

  I suppose no you can use your iPad as a [TS]

  120 Hertz display that you can draw on [TS]

  when you connect to your Mac with that [TS]

  didn't get announced the WZ by the way [TS]

  but it's still out there if that feature [TS]

  ever shapes yeah yeah but it no I mean [TS]

  like you know one thing you doing on [TS]

  desktop a lot is scroll you know like [TS]

  you're scrolling webpages all the time [TS]

  on desktop so like you just page down [TS]

  and page up and have it set to jump [TS]

  smooth scrolling is for suckers instance [TS]

  growing so old [TS]

  I think they remove that feature I had [TS]

  that the secret prep set for a long time [TS]

  I think it's gone now though like I [TS]

  think you have no choice you get smooth [TS]

  swirling whether you like it or not yeah [TS]

  I think when they went when they went [TS]

  fully GPU rendered I think that happened [TS]

  so now I'll use another reason to use [TS]

  Chrome right guys oh god thanks for our [TS]

  three sponsors this week betterment endo [TS]

  Chino and mail route and we'll see you [TS]

  next week [TS]

  now the show is over [TS]

  they didn't even mean to begin cuz it [TS]

  was accidental oh it was accidental John [TS]

  didn't do any research Marco and Casey [TS]

  wouldn't let him cuz it was accidental [TS]

  it was accidental and you can find the [TS]

  show notes at a TPM and if you're into [TS]

  Twitter you can follow them at CAS pyl [TS]

  ISS so that's Casey list ma accion krm [TS]

  aunty Marco Arment li r AC USA Syracuse [TS]

  so [TS]

  we need to discuss a few things and the [TS]

  last of the three things we need to [TS]

  discuss the other two should be quick is [TS]

  the food at WWE this is your teaser [TS]

  everyone that it is coming it is coming [TS]

  this episode um so I can't wait because [TS]

  I haven't had it yet because I wasn't I [TS]

  didn't have a ticket I can't wait to [TS]

  hear about it mm-hmm before though we [TS]

  need to talk about a couple of different [TS]

  things number one I stole something from [TS]

  dub dub I'm in bidding it publicly [TS]

  except not really is it everybody's [TS]

  heart Casey no it is not everybody's [TS]

  heart that is very kind of you to even [TS]

  make that joke now I actually didn't [TS]

  really steal anything this is probably [TS]

  not interesting to anyone but me but I [TS]

  thought it was funny and a nice story [TS]

  about how Apple nerds are actually nice [TS]

  people so I forget what day it was I [TS]

  want to say it was Wednesday it doesn't [TS]

  really matter but one of the days toward [TS]

  the end of the week I went i sat down [TS]

  with my old and busted 2015 circa 2015 [TS]

  MacBook Pro before touch bar you know [TS]

  before anything fancy and cool and I had [TS]

  wanted to use Ethernet and so as as with [TS]

  prior years I plugged in my Thunderbolt [TS]

  Ethernet connector plugged in one of the [TS]

  Ethernet ports in let me back up a [TS]

  half-step so basically they have areas [TS]

  in in the conference center where [TS]

  they'll have Ethernet ports they'll have [TS]

  power strips and and in years past they [TS]

  used to actually provide Thunderbolt 2 [TS]

  Ethernet connections that that that you [TS]

  could use you don't have to bring your [TS]

  own but because the new hotness is USBC [TS]

  that's what they had this year instead [TS]

  so but they had just plain old ethernet [TS]

  cables that you could plug into a [TS]

  connector that you provide which is what [TS]

  I did so I sit down i plug in my you [TS]

  know ethernet adapter I download a bunch [TS]

  of videos I leave and I completely [TS]

  forget my Ethernet adapter crap I go [TS]

  back almost exactly 24 hours later you [TS]

  know it was still there my Ethernet [TS]

  adapter I was overjoyed because that's [TS]

  like a $30.00 damn adapter and no nerds [TS]

  so none of these nerds was a big enough [TS]

  jerk or noticed to take it I was so [TS]

  excited but then that then you have [TS]

  that awkward social moment where there's [TS]

  a bunch of people around you and you sit [TS]

  down and you plug in and then you take [TS]

  the adapter and walk off and I can only [TS]

  imagine what the people around me [TS]

  thought just hand on heart it was the [TS]

  exact same spot I was the day before I [TS]

  am 99% sure it was the same adapter but [TS]

  here it is I like sit down without an [TS]

  adapter and walk away with an adapter [TS]

  and I'm sure the people around me were [TS]

  like what just happened but uh but [TS]

  anyway so yeah so when I say I stole [TS]

  something from dub dub really I stole [TS]

  something that I had left at dub dub [TS]

  also tangential don't I don't know if [TS]

  you've ever talked about this on the [TS]

  show and you two obviously know the [TS]

  answer but for the listeners if you have [TS]

  one of these Ethernet to whatever [TS]

  adapters so maybe Ethernet to USB C [TS]

  Ethernet to Thunderbolt how do you [TS]

  ensure that the ones that Casey doesn't [TS]

  leave behind [TS]

  don't walk away what do you do because [TS]

  Apple came up with a completely genius [TS]

  solution to this problem [TS]

  so obviously you - no but the answer is [TS]

  take a what do you call that tie the zip [TS]

  ties tie [TS]

  thank you a zip tie take a zip tie and [TS]

  if you imagine an Ethernet cable the way [TS]

  they generally work is they have like [TS]

  the part with all the eight or whatever [TS]

  it is wires in it and then like a little [TS]

  tabby that pops up and in order to pull [TS]

  the ethernet cord out of the device it's [TS]

  plugged into you have to push the tabby [TS]

  down so what they do is they take the [TS]

  zip tie and tie it super tight around [TS]

  the Ethernet cable under the tabby thing [TS]

  so the only way to get this out is to [TS]

  push down on the tabby thing but you [TS]

  can't because the zip tie is there how [TS]

  frickin clever is that it's been the [TS]

  same way for years but I don't think [TS]

  we've ever had a in impetus to talk [TS]

  about it super clever such a low-tech [TS]

  but great solution to the problem which [TS]

  I thought was really funny so yep that [TS]

  was me stealing something from dub dub [TS]

  exception tell them you're using the [TS]

  Apple app that makes it look like you're [TS]

  stealing but you totally paid using easy [TS]

  just wait for a few seconds and then [TS]

  make it yeah just walk away surely no [TS]

  one thought that works with everything [TS]

  an apple [TS]

  the phone doesn't even need to be on [TS]

  doesn't even need to have a battery or [TS]

  work when it doesn't walk out with him [TS]

  oh my god please don't do that [TS]

  oh don't do that okay so uh we should [TS]

  also talk about what Marco did for the [TS]

  entire week and uh as far as I can tell [TS]

  from every time I saw you you just drank [TS]

  coffee and sat outside that's basically [TS]

  it it was glorious it was funny so uh so [TS]

  at at San Jose there was a coffee shop [TS]

  called [TS]

  social policy which was either genuinely [TS]

  or ironically called Sopo I don't know [TS]

  if that was that was intentional or not [TS]

  I mean their sign said SOPA on it so I [TS]

  guess it's embraced but anyways it was a [TS]

  from what I could tell a nice coffee [TS]

  shop like actually I guess I should say [TS]

  more of like a cafe because they had a [TS]

  little bit of food and you talked about [TS]

  this on was it run loop is that right [TS]

  which show were you on the yeah run loop [TS]

  and also under the radar but I don't [TS]

  think it's out yet but yeah so well I'll [TS]

  put a link to in the show notes to run [TS]

  loop but um but yeah so Marco basically [TS]

  each morning and you know jump in when [TS]

  you're ready but I'm just telling you my [TS]

  observation it would roll out of bed [TS]

  when it suited him and then shuffle on [TS]

  down to the social policy which was like [TS]

  across the street from the Fairmont [TS]

  Hotel across the street from the [TS]

  4-points hotel very very close to the [TS]

  conference center so you would roll into [TS]

  social policy and because California [TS]

  doesn't have weather you could sit [TS]

  outside and it seemed like no matter [TS]

  when I passed by social policy you were [TS]

  there to your credit often with [TS]

  different people but you were a fixture [TS]

  the entire week so it was really you [TS]

  just holding court in social policy if [TS]

  anyone wanted a conference with the king [TS]

  they just had to show up at social [TS]

  policy and that's where he would be [TS]

  that's basically true and there was even [TS]

  there was one day where I went there for [TS]

  breakfast I tried to leave and then ran [TS]

  to a bunch of our friends who were [TS]

  heading there and went right back there [TS]

  with them then I had a lunch meeting [TS]

  there like 40 minutes later so I just [TS]

  stayed I hung out with our friends and [TS]

  then change tables for the lunch meeting [TS]

  they then then had the lunch meeting [TS]

  then after that like there was some [TS]

  other reason why I had to be there like [TS]

  it was basically spent a whole day there [TS]

  but it was ya know it's a great place I [TS]

  mean this is one of the things in [TS]

  general [TS]

  you know that I like about having it in [TS]

  San Jose that that we have never had [TS]

  really in San Francisco is that there [TS]

  there are these clear like common places [TS]

  because it's it's a much smaller area [TS]

  that most people are really walking [TS]

  between like the hotels that most people [TS]

  are staying in we're very very close to [TS]

  the conference center right there and [TS]

  there were more affordable hotels close [TS]

  to his conference center than there are [TS]

  on San Francisco and so everyone was in [TS]

  not everybody like more people were in a [TS]

  smaller area they were it seems like San [TS]

  Jose is a much quieter town most of the [TS]

  time we know outside of conferences at [TS]

  least in this part of the town is so [TS]

  like they were there was there were very [TS]

  few other people walking around who [TS]

  weren't conference attendees or adjacent [TS]

  people like me and so it was it was a [TS]

  really really good hangout area in [TS]

  general there were a handful of coffee [TS]

  shops a handful of bars handful of [TS]

  restaurants that are all right around [TS]

  there and you could just hang out at one [TS]

  of them and you would see tons of people [TS]

  that were conference attendees and if [TS]

  you know if you know a lot of people [TS]

  there like like we do you'd see a lot of [TS]

  your friends and so it was a really [TS]

  really great scenario and Sara never had [TS]

  that they were there was no place in San [TS]

  Francisco that you could sit and just [TS]

  run into people that easily and that [TS]

  quickly that was that nice and and that [TS]

  you would that you would learn as people [TS]

  that often it was it was great for that [TS]

  summarize Marcos review San Jose a great [TS]

  place not to attend WWDC honestly yes [TS]

  yes it it like I I don't know I don't [TS]

  know what to expect going into it this [TS]

  is my first time going without a ticket [TS]

  but Wow was it great and and and I [TS]

  should you know and to to clarify here I [TS]

  talked a little bit this on the radar [TS]

  which should come out about the same [TS]

  time as this to clarify one of the [TS]

  reasons I was able to do that is because [TS]

  I've been going for so many years with a [TS]

  ticket that I know a lot of people now [TS]

  so when you know a lot of people's is [TS]

  this is like that's why I'm for [TS]

  marketing like when you know a lot of [TS]

  people you can do that really easily [TS]

  it's harder if you don't know it's like [TS]

  if you don't know any [TS]

  I would not recommend going out there [TS]

  with no conferences to attend because I [TS]

  think you need something to anchor your [TS]

  day if you know most unless you know a [TS]

  lot of people there you have a lot of [TS]

  other things scheduled you need [TS]

  something to anchor your days so go you [TS]

  know get a ticket to a conference [TS]

  whether it's WTC or layers or all conf [TS]

  honestly it doesn't matter that much [TS]

  which one you pick you know pick [TS]

  whichever one appeals to you most and [TS]

  that you that you can get into and [TS]

  afford and everything else but if you [TS]

  are going out there mostly for social [TS]

  reasons and you already know some people [TS]

  out there that you can hang out with and [TS]

  stuff then going totally ticketless is [TS]

  pretty cool and I can recommend it [TS]

  because it's a very different experience [TS]

  in San Jose than it ever was in San [TS]

  Francisco I mean I can't count the [TS]

  number of breakfasts I had in San [TS]

  Francisco in that sad little bagel deli [TS]

  next to the park 55 just like as I was [TS]

  working out of the door like on the way [TS]

  out to try to make the morning session [TS]

  like I've had so many like sad [TS]

  breakfasts alone just like rushing to [TS]

  Moscone and that never happened in San [TS]

  Jose like I would say for breakfast and [TS]

  there would already be four people I [TS]

  know at the coffee shop I would have [TS]

  food and eight more people would show [TS]

  like it but it was just it was awesome [TS]

  it was a very very different experience [TS]

  so I really did appreciate that yeah you [TS]

  know I'm giving you a hard time but if [TS]

  it were me I'd probably be in the exact [TS]

  same boat and it was really nice to have [TS]

  a place that we could all gather that [TS]

  would appeal to everyone because I'm not [TS]

  a coffee drinker but you know they had [TS]

  other things to drink and they had food [TS]

  to eat and it was right by the two most [TS]

  popular hotels or at least amongst our [TS]

  you know kind of social circle and and [TS]

  yeah you would end up because often [TS]

  times should be eating outside you know [TS]

  you would be walking by maybe to go to [TS]

  your hotel via KHOU there's Marco I'll [TS]

  swing by and say hey and next you know [TS]

  it's three hours later so I'm giving you [TS]

  a hard time but but I I couldn't agree [TS]

  more with pretty much everything you [TS]

  just said pretty much the only thing I [TS]

  regret about not having a ticket this [TS]

  year is I didn't get one of those cool [TS]

  jackets they are pretty cool and the pin [TS]

  is mine so in the pins that's right now [TS]

  for the first time in I would say four [TS]

  years however long they've been doing [TS]

  those weird nylon track jackets they [TS]

  finally have great jackets like [TS]

  and look on eBay like should I just buy [TS]

  one Arnie Biggs I'm sure people are [TS]

  dumping them and sure enough the answer [TS]

  is yes people are dumping them but [TS]

  they're going for like a hundred and [TS]

  fifty dollars or more Wow okay I don't [TS]

  want one that badly suddenly I don't [TS]

  want mine if it's a large maybe let's [TS]

  talk yeah right but no they were they [TS]

  were nice jackets and yeah I don't think [TS]

  we did we talked about this last episode [TS]

  with the pins I don't recall [TS]

  I don't think so the pin yeah that other [TS]

  people have but we haven't okay so short [TS]

  short version is when you walked in and [TS]

  registered you would get a package of [TS]

  six pins and a country pin so you know a [TS]

  pin that shows like the US flag or maybe [TS]

  like Federico got the Italian flag etc [TS]

  and the six pins there they're differing [TS]

  reports as to how many of them were [TS]

  consistent how many were different it [TS]

  doesn't really matter the point is that [TS]

  not all six were the same amongst every [TS]

  single attendee so what ended up [TS]

  happening was you started like wheeling [TS]

  and dealing just like Disney style [TS]

  trying to find somebody who like what [TS]

  was it John that you traded with [TS]

  Federico you took a happy Mack and he [TS]

  took a metal logo is that right I had to [TS]

  sacrifice my metal pin which is one of [TS]

  the ones I liked but I had to do what it [TS]

  took to get a happy Mac see end up like [TS]

  trading with people and then at certain [TS]

  points throughout the week if you went [TS]

  to certain things or did certain things [TS]

  they would give you a pin so at some [TS]

  point I was hanging out downstairs maybe [TS]

  when I was leaving my dongle behind and [TS]

  I got a San Jose pin when you walked [TS]

  into the into the bash on Thursday [TS]

  afternoon you got like a you know metal [TS]

  not metal to the am but metal like you [TS]

  know pinky and forefinger up with WDC on [TS]

  it and I think if you went to one of the [TS]

  labs you got like a space invader thing [TS]

  if you went to another lab you got [TS]

  something else if it was it was [TS]

  something at Arak oh yeah [TS]

  and so if you're if you're curious what [TS]

  the pins are almost all of them if not [TS]

  all of them are in the WWDC app on the [TS]

  iphone and they're a sticker pack for [TS]

  messages which I also thought was kind [TS]

  of nets cute yeah so so [TS]

  I'm being told via Sam the geek and it's [TS]

  in the chat room that space invaders was [TS]

  the game's meet up and there were some [TS]

  other ones also elsewhere as well but [TS]

  anyways the the point is you would like [TS]

  kind of exchange these pins if you so [TS]

  desired throughout the course the week [TS]

  and you could kind of quote-unquote earn [TS]

  more as you did different things [TS]

  throughout the week when you got your [TS]

  wristband to go into the bash you got [TS]

  either command-z or one other kind of [TS]

  pan africa the other one was but anyways [TS]

  the it was I thought that was really [TS]

  clever at first I was like come on [TS]

  really but it ended up being really cute [TS]

  and really fun and and I am fully on [TS]

  board with them doing that again I put a [TS]

  sunglasses emoji and a thumbs up emoji [TS]

  on my laptop bag so I I'm a sunglasses [TS]

  guy given a thumbs up jelly in the chad [TS]

  jelly bean super said born to code was [TS]

  the other one when you got your [TS]

  wristband it to be honest it doesn't [TS]

  really matter but the point is these [TS]

  pins I thought really cool also if you [TS]

  happen to be selling on eBay with like a [TS]

  good set of pins they're going for over [TS]

  three hundred dollars then my were like [TS]

  I had no if you would have asked me [TS]

  before I did the search to predict how [TS]

  much they were going for I would guess [TS]

  maybe like you know fifty bucks and no [TS]

  they're coming for a lot you have all [TS]

  this receive a lot of pins that's Apple [TS]

  is late to the pin trading game I think [TS]

  maybe Disney started it but met several [TS]

  years ago the Penny Arcade Expo picked [TS]

  up on it [TS]

  xoxo would search going yeah go and [TS]

  search for how much a complete pin [TS]

  collection than any of those other [TS]

  conferences or venues goes for Apple has [TS]

  finally found another market where they [TS]

  can make a small number a finely crafted [TS]

  things sell for a huge amount of money [TS]

  but they're not selling them it's but [TS]

  that's why they're worth a huge amount [TS]

  of money well secondary market is it's [TS]

  like when people get their iPhones early [TS]

  and then they sell them immediately on [TS]

  eBay same thing only there will never be [TS]

  any more of these pins if you didn't get [TS]

  one it's too late and thanks again to [TS]

  our friend Sam the geek in the chat we [TS]

  have learned that if I want to buy the [TS]

  same jacket without the WTC logo on it [TS]

  it appears to be the Levi's it's called [TS]

  the trucker jacket and it's 70 bucks no [TS]

  puddling can show yeah so we actually [TS]

  might it's a really it looks really nice [TS]

  on everybody the only thing is I don't [TS]

  really know what I'm a medium [TS]

  large that's the only question so I'll [TS]

  have to see okay the time has come we [TS]

  need to talk about food and Marco I know [TS]

  that there's going to be this isn't [TS]

  going to be as exciting for you perhaps [TS]

  we have to talk about the food this is a [TS]

  so exciting for me you have no idea [TS]

  let's start with the most important [TS]

  thing there was Odwalla however there [TS]

  was no Mango Tango and it it was just [TS]

  basically the whole week was a long [TS]

  troll of Casey Liz there were trams I [TS]

  don't know what they're called it [TS]

  doesn't really matter but there are [TS]

  trams that ran actually right next to [TS]

  social policy one of the tram or many of [TS]

  the trams one of the designs on the tram [TS]

  there was a like billboard that took up [TS]

  the entire side of the tram was one of [TS]

  the situations are they like painted a [TS]

  advertisement on the side of the tram [TS]

  one of them was not wala advertisement [TS]

  and not only that but it was featuring [TS]

  Mango Tango we get into the show and [TS]

  actually I think people had seen some [TS]

  odd wallet coolers which is what we had [TS]

  seen in the past and they had sent me [TS]

  pictures on Twitter and I'm all excited [TS]

  with myself and I did not see one mango [TS]

  tango all week you guys the struggle is [TS]

  real but I was orange juice but there [TS]

  was a chalky um chocolate milk sort of [TS]

  thing there was what was the other one [TS]

  shows that aren't one was the decoy I [TS]

  almost rush you're the one to get my [TS]

  girl finally a mango tango pick when [TS]

  he's up for Casey but it was a decoy it [TS]

  was there was a decoy a mango in it [TS]

  right [TS]

  yeah it was a I think so I tweeted about [TS]

  at some point uh but yeah it was the [TS]

  entire week in terms of Odwalla was one [TS]

  long troll Casey list and now I know [TS]

  exactly how you felt several years ago [TS]

  Marko when you had the long troll of [TS]

  Mark Worman when they took away [TS]

  strawberry sea monster yep it was the [TS]

  worst you guys was the worst it was also [TS]

  funny talking to people because you know [TS]

  after I've been chatting about it both [TS]

  online and on the show people came up to [TS]

  me and one of the common things that [TS]

  everyone said to me was did you ever [TS]

  look at the nutrition information on a [TS]

  nod wallah [TS]

  and the story I told that much is true [TS]

  is that it wasn't until like my third or [TS]

  fourth dub-dub that I finally took a [TS]

  look at the nutrition information those [TS]

  things are like three or four hundred [TS]

  calories of [TS]

  or something like that whatever the [TS]

  number is it is intense there's no way [TS]

  like any kind of like juice that you're [TS]

  gonna be having like in general public [TS]

  drink it needs tons of sugar to taste [TS]

  good it's always gonna have tons of [TS]

  sugar yeah it was it's bad but anyway so [TS]

  the Odwalla that was the thing so the [TS]

  box launches in John at this point feel [TS]

  free to jump in whenever you're ready oh [TS]

  I'm sorry I shouldn't get to box lunches [TS]

  I should mention the breakfast the [TS]

  breakfast I think I only had one day [TS]

  because I was running around most the [TS]

  other day sometimes in social policy uh [TS]

  did they have the world's worst bagels [TS]

  John as per usual oh they did that's [TS]

  right we have to talk about the cream [TS]

  cheese yeah that was a downgrade I feel [TS]

  like I said downgrade on the breakfast [TS]

  starting off with a breakfast I always [TS]

  have the breakfast because they have [TS]

  they usually have a lot of junk food for [TS]

  breakfast is like well you're gonna get [TS]

  bad quality food make it junk food [TS]

  because drunk I'm gonna tell you one [TS]

  thing by the way the breakfast the [TS]

  social policy was amazing like they had [TS]

  like five or six different amazing [TS]

  options it's so good it was like yeah [TS]

  options it's so good it was like yeah [TS]

  I've ever had at a conference yeah if [TS]

  you the social quality breakfast this [TS]

  definitely looks better but the junk [TS]

  food they usually have in San Francisco [TS]

  the past few years is they have various [TS]

  kinds of danishes with some kind of [TS]

  fruit jelly again ninety percent sugar [TS]

  speaking of things that appear to be [TS]

  fruit but are actually just sugar donuts [TS]

  is it would normally have at San [TS]

  Francisco they also have bagels and that [TS]

  are they really is that whatever West [TS]

  Coast bagels with with with a bunch of [TS]

  different spreads that butter you can [TS]

  put on usually jelly and also whipped [TS]

  cream cheese alright so this year it [TS]

  seemed like the same stuff oh there are [TS]

  the danishes with a little fruit in the [TS]

  middle oh there are the quote-unquote [TS]

  bagels but the cream cheese and the [TS]

  spread situation was kind of grim they [TS]

  did have butter in little balls but I [TS]

  think it was unsalted butter which is [TS]

  kind of a technical foul there I don't [TS]

  like that cream cheese I did not have [TS]

  yeah they do not have a giant you know [TS]

  open vat of whipped cream cheese instead [TS]

  they had Casey proof packages [TS]

  Philadelphia looking for the toilet off [TS]

  your brand Casey it was okay case you [TS]

  from okay alright so now I have to use [TS]

  these a tiny man yeah like I have to [TS]

  fill in some color commentary so I don't [TS]

  know I don't think I'm going to be able [TS]

  to find an image of this but um but it [TS]

  Americans anyway I think this is a [TS]

  uniquely American thing so Kraft makes a [TS]

  cream cheese call it the brand is [TS]

  Philadelphia Cream Cheese and one of the [TS]

  ways it comes is rather than in a tub it [TS]

  comes as like a little brick if you've [TS]

  ever held or opened a brick of [TS]

  Philadelphia Cream Cheese it has this [TS]

  unique wrapper in it Marco do you know [TS]

  what I'm talking about it's like sort of [TS]

  aluminum foil but yeah it's it's a [TS]

  rectangle that's kind yet kind of oily [TS]

  but it's it's thick it's lined right and [TS]

  and then it has that weird Ridge across [TS]

  the top you gotta like try to peel apart [TS]

  exactly okay so with that mental model [TS]

  in mind and again if you're not from [TS]

  America or I've never seen this III [TS]

  genuinely I'm sorry but I don't know I [TS]

  I'm looking at Google search and Google [TS]

  Images I can't find an example so if we [TS]

  find one we'll put in the show notes but [TS]

  anyway imagine like a really thick [TS]

  aluminum foil and on the top of the [TS]

  brick it's kind of P it's pushed [TS]

  together the two ends of it are pushed [TS]

  to get [TS]

  you're supposed to peel them apart just [TS]

  like Marco said so what they had a dub [TS]

  dub was they had kind of like little [TS]

  mini versions of that so it was the same [TS]

  material but it was the size of like a [TS]

  catch mail a little bit bigger than a [TS]

  catch a packet but kind of around that [TS]

  size so you with me so far Marco yeah [TS]

  like similar material much much much [TS]

  smaller so I sit down embarrassingly [TS]

  right at the edge of that outdoor [TS]

  seating area so anyone can walk by and [TS]

  see me and I try to open and I actually [TS]

  got two of these cream cheeses because [TS]

  I'm a man that likes my cream cheese and [TS]

  so I didn't think one would be enough I [TS]

  get two of them you've never sounded [TS]

  more New York than you just have right [TS]

  then thank you so I try to open it on [TS]

  the side because it says open here and [TS]

  it points to the side and I noticed that [TS]

  you know at first I try to do the tear [TS]

  thing like tear off the side because you [TS]

  know you would expect like a perforation [TS]

  or something like that so I go to tear [TS]

  off the side I really shouldn't be [TS]

  telling the story publicly but it's too [TS]

  funny not to I go to tear off the side [TS]

  and that doesn't work and then I [TS]

  realized wait a second [TS]

  this looks a lot like the top of the [TS]

  brick of cream cheese I know what I have [TS]

  to do I have to pull it apart no no I [TS]

  kid you not I spent five minutes across [TS]

  two different creams Jesus trying to [TS]

  pull this damn thing apart I've never [TS]

  felt dumber in my life but it's the [TS]

  truth I could not figure it out so I [TS]

  ended up having the world's worst bagel [TS]

  plane because I just couldn't figure it [TS]

  out I didn't have like seven hours to [TS]

  work on this you just gave up that's the [TS]

  best part of the story is that that you [TS]

  were defeated that it wasn't like it was [TS]

  really hard to get it out or you made a [TS]

  big mess when you opened it up you were [TS]

  defeated you you uh surrendered to the [TS]

  cream cheese to of I did like you had a [TS]

  second run you like okay let me just put [TS]

  this down it's all hot and like slippery [TS]

  now for my finger Reese let me get a [TS]

  second fresh one let me take a new [TS]

  approach nope did it Owen - you were [TS]

  Owen - again that's true cream I wish I [TS]

  could I wish I could tell you I was [TS]

  making this up just for listeners [TS]

  enjoyment I swear to god this is exactly [TS]

  what I feel like you should have at [TS]

  least resorted to you're sort of like [TS]

  animalistic nature and just torn the [TS]

  thing open with your teeth to just be [TS]

  like you know what you're not gonna beat [TS]

  me packet of cream cheese it's true I [TS]

  tried with my teeth couldn't get it so I [TS]

  am I am i I I can laugh about it because [TS]

  it is pretty damn funny but it is also [TS]

  super and let me clear these containers [TS]

  not hard open after he said that the [TS]

  next day I had to get a package I didn't [TS]

  even see the package first time I I [TS]

  didn't even bother getting a Bao's I'm [TS]

  like oh there's no cream cheese what the [TS]

  hell am I gonna do with that bagel [TS]

  I had already discovered the DIA [TS]

  exercise but ever dissever the the the [TS]

  butter was in salt anyway I took one of [TS]

  those packets it has little things open [TS]

  here I tore it opened it was like like [TS]

  yeah it was with opposable I can open [TS]

  these but not lies John siracusa lies I [TS]

  opened the first jar - thank you - he [TS]

  did send me a text [TS]

  and basically said you idiot look at [TS]

  what I was able to do oh my god it's so [TS]

  funny so by getting back to the [TS]

  breakfast like the lack of cream cheese [TS]

  for the bagels was good it seemed to be [TS]

  less variety of stuff the croissants [TS]

  were ok but sometimes the head weird [TS]

  almonds on top of them unsalted butter [TS]

  no good Dana just seemed about the same [TS]

  maybe less variety like usually in the [TS]

  old thing there would be like all five [TS]

  flavors of danishes and there was no [TS]

  doughnuts no doughnuts at all not the [TS]

  doughnuts were great at San Francisco [TS]

  but some doughnuts are better than no [TS]

  doughnuts [TS]

  alright this is so I know Howard another [TS]

  thing that I regret about not having a [TS]

  ticket to the conference I regret [TS]

  watching me for watching the two of you [TS]

  react and in experience this food uh [TS]

  it's so true ok so let's talk about the [TS]

  lunches so we had heard room rumblings [TS]

  of maybe there were executive box [TS]

  lunches maybe they were just box lunches [TS]

  and um and so on keynote day we were [TS]

  eventually shuffled outside if I'm not [TS]

  mistaken and they were they were [TS]

  distributing lunches so immediate when [TS]

  they offer diet coke I believe we talked [TS]

  on the legendary dub-dub food episode a [TS]

  few episodes back that they had either [TS]

  the world's worst lemonade or the [TS]

  world's worst iced tea and those used to [TS]

  be here to launch selections and if you [