Roderick on the Line

Ep. 249: "Blank Knobs"


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  [Music] [TS]

  hello hi John I'm herbals how's it going [TS]

  good do I detect in your voice at own [TS]

  world weariness now yes I stayed up a [TS]

  little too late watching TV but I'm good [TS]

  mm-hmm were you watching Indiana Jones [TS]

  and the Last Crusade no but I like that [TS]

  one were you know oh no no I like it [TS]

  better in the second one there's [TS]

  everything is better than the second one [TS]

  well and then there's the other 'mo we [TS]

  don't talk about there's a third one [TS]

  that's even worse hmm it's kind of a [TS]

  Godfather 3 type situation is it let's [TS]

  say you had to watch that or matrix 3 [TS]

  for all eternity ah you know I've never [TS]

  seen then the other two Matrix movies [TS]

  and it seems like there is a strong [TS]

  consensus that they are not very good [TS]

  and then there's a die-hard group that [TS]

  thinks one of them is really pretty good [TS]

  oh really [TS]

  yeah how do you saying I haven't I [TS]

  haven't seen the other two Matrix movies [TS]

  either hmm you know it's in that [TS]

  category of like why listen to another [TS]

  my bloody valentine records no I know I [TS]

  know yeah yeah it's it's frustrating [TS]

  sometimes [TS]

  I mean matrix is good but it but yeah I [TS]

  was a little bit old yeah a little bit [TS]

  old for it did I ever ever tell you the [TS]

  story of how I saw the matrix this is [TS]

  about 1998 1998 that's right um I was uh [TS]

  I was walking down the street in Seattle [TS]

  just Boop b'doop b'doop n' come on in 98 [TS]

  or 99 um it might have been mainly in [TS]

  theaters in 99 but I think officially [TS]

  let me look I think oh you know what 99 [TS]

  I stand corrected [TS]

  look at those 99 yep no you know what [TS]

  that's right that's right much 31st 1980 [TS]

  no March 31st see there it is [TS]

  and I had just learned that the western [TS]

  state hurricanes were breaking up [TS]

  because we'd gotten back from our South [TS]

  by Southwest trip and I'd written a [TS]

  bunch of new songs and I was really [TS]

  excited and we we met for our first band [TS]

  practice after we got back from the tour [TS]

  you know we got back and we we relaxed [TS]

  and didn't you know didn't get together [TS]

  for a week or two a couple of weeks and [TS]

  then it's like let's get back together [TS]

  band practice and we all show up and [TS]

  we've got some shows booked including [TS]

  our first-ever headlining of the show [TS]

  box a really big deal and Seattle Wow [TS]

  and we're in the practice base and we [TS]

  get in there and we and I'm like oh my [TS]

  god you guys I've got like four new [TS]

  songs this is gonna be amazing and the [TS]

  drummer and bass player have been [TS]

  meeting in secret and they say and I [TS]

  said let me let me put this all in my [TS]

  head because I honestly think that we [TS]

  put our shit on and practiced we played [TS]

  and then took a break and during the [TS]

  break they said we're quitting the band [TS]

  well like it was a lead a little bit [TS]

  there [TS]

  yeah it wasn't even you know they didn't [TS]

  like call and leave a voicemail or [TS]

  something it was just like and I said [TS]

  what are we doing why are we why did you [TS]

  put Y did we just practice for an hour [TS]

  and a half and they're like oh well do [TS]

  you know who knows why they who knows [TS]

  why they were like they were but it [TS]

  turned out that they didn't because [TS]

  we've gone on this week-long tour [TS]

  ten-day tour they they decided they [TS]

  didn't like touring and being in a band [TS]

  because they didn't have their own [TS]

  pillow every night and they had a job [TS]

  their jobs lined up the drummer was [TS]

  going to be a copywriter for like a [TS]

  sports equipment company and the bass [TS]

  player was going to go work at Microsoft [TS]

  or something [TS]

  and I was pretty mad but exceptionally [TS]

  sad because I had I'd this was this I [TS]

  had staked my hopes on this you guys had [TS]

  a bullet you were gone places that's [TS]

  right when they brought it to you their [TS]

  reluctance to bring it up before [TS]

  practice was not indicative I they felt [TS]

  strongly about this this was not [TS]

  something you could negotiate or talk [TS]

  them out of no they were pretty smug [TS]

  dudes and thought that they had it all [TS]

  figured out I mean they always acted [TS]

  like they had it all figured out but [TS]

  they had it all figured out here too [TS]

  they just you know this has been a [TS]

  factor a lot lately for me where you [TS]

  feel like your reality and someone [TS]

  else's reality just aren't sharing the [TS]

  same parameters yeah like you the two [TS]

  realities don't have a hard time [TS]

  coexisting and of course they do there [TS]

  they are able to co-exist there here in [TS]

  the world at the same time together it's [TS]

  June for me and it's June for you but in [TS]

  there cosmology somehow this breaking up [TS]

  the band didn't preclude continuing to [TS]

  practice mm-hmm and I think I think it [TS]

  was because you know we did have a show [TS]

  coming up and I say that makes sense [TS]

  well except for the exhibit to me like [TS]

  the show coming up is the whole point of [TS]

  the show coming up is that it continue [TS]

  our career in the job of playing shows [TS]

  like the show itself isn't isn't that [TS]

  you know like it's not that we throw [TS]

  ourselves on the sword and make a [TS]

  sacrifice in order to play this show for [TS]

  itself there's only one reason to play [TS]

  the show and that is to continue to play [TS]

  shows although we did end up playing our [TS]

  final show but I didn't want it suffice [TS]

  to say after they said we're breaking up [TS]

  the band I didn't want to go back in and [TS]

  practice more Sundays just call it that [TS]

  yeah but this whole like why is your [TS]

  reality so far from mine [TS]

  a thing is really well it's really a [TS]

  moment where you have to break down your [TS]

  reality and say where am I missing the [TS]

  peace cuz there you know I can't just be [TS]

  them right there's got a beauty to this [TS]

  to have to be still can't figure that [TS]

  one out that makes you wonder if if [TS]

  maybe we mostly got lucky for a long [TS]

  time and seeming to have the same [TS]

  reality and that the Venn diagram just [TS]

  happened to be like sailing over the [TS]

  same little area of the pool for a long [TS]

  time you know I mean maybe I wonder like [TS]

  I wonder if it's always been this way [TS]

  and I just never realized it yeah right [TS]

  well and what an end and it makes you [TS]

  wonder like how is it that I seem to be [TS]

  successfully sharing a single reality [TS]

  with a lot of people is that also untrue [TS]

  am i it is it is it just that I'm in [TS]

  most cases I haven't stumbled into the [TS]

  way and stumbled into the little little [TS]

  hole in the ground where all of a sudden [TS]

  the vast difference between our [TS]

  realities is revealed [TS]

  if only there you see the same green- [TS]

  thumbnail if only there was some kind of [TS]

  a movie that you could have gone to [TS]

  around that time that would help clarify [TS]

  the idea that maybe reality isn't what [TS]

  it seems so I'm walking down the street [TS]

  in downtown Seattle I have no idea why [TS]

  I'm downtown and I'm just like bummed [TS]

  I'd had an opportunity to go to South [TS]

  Africa that spring with the University [TS]

  of Washington compared to the history of [TS]

  ideas class and we were going to study [TS]

  the Truth and Reconciliation committee [TS]

  and my advisor Jim Klaus had said I [TS]

  don't want I don't want you down there [TS]

  as a as a student I want you to watch [TS]

  the students and then write a book about [TS]

  what happens like it was very thrilling [TS]

  it felt like a super secret spy mission [TS]

  to go do some world historical college [TS]

  work and if I'd done it I would be very [TS]

  ecology right now probably and I went to [TS]

  banned and I said I have this [TS]

  opportunity to go down there and they [TS]

  said I swear to you this was in October [TS]

  or November of the following year they [TS]

  were like you can't leave dude the band [TS]

  is blowing up you can't just go for go [TS]

  to South Africa and expect to come back [TS]

  and the band will still be here wait how [TS]

  are you how long before the breakup was [TS]

  this well we broke up in March and they [TS]

  were saying this to me in October [TS]

  November and so I looked at my life at [TS]

  that moment that crossroads where I was [TS]

  like if I go left I'm going to South [TS]

  Africa to write a book about the Truth [TS]

  and Reconciliation committee that seems [TS]

  really heavy and cool unlike what I've [TS]

  been what I've been aiming toward in my [TS]

  college life for a long time something [TS]

  like cool but if I go right I'm in a [TS]

  successful finally in a successful [TS]

  popular band that might have a shot at [TS]

  being rock and roll and I went to my [TS]

  professor and he was like well you know [TS]

  you got it this is one of those things [TS]

  you got to choose and I said I made that [TS]

  I made the decision based on the fact [TS]

  that which thing is less likely to be [TS]

  available to you which which thing is [TS]

  more strike while the iron's hot like [TS]

  the shot of being a rocking rock star [TS]

  the shot of being a university professor [TS]

  and it seemed like if you don't take the [TS]

  rock and roll shot when it comes it's [TS]

  never going to come again and so I said [TS]

  I couldn't go to South Africa and I was [TS]

  super bummed and then we went down to [TS]

  South by Southwest and we came back in [TS]

  the band broke up because they got jobs [TS]

  as copywriters and they didn't like to [TS]

  be on they didn't like to be in the van [TS]

  you know anyway I'm walking down the [TS]

  street I'm super bummed I'm dragging my [TS]

  feet and I hear beep beep and I turn [TS]

  around and there's Death Cab for Cutie [TS]

  the entire band all in their van and my [TS]

  recollection is that it was like the [TS]

  scooby doo van hey guys like there it's [TS]

  like a brown [TS]

  it's a rootbeer Brown like 80s Ford van [TS]

  and and depend in my memory there all [TS]

  four of them hanging out the windows [TS]

  like wait like the Cosby kids yeah [TS]

  exactly like they're all they don't fit [TS]

  in the van because they're they have [TS]

  cartoon heads right they're so big that [TS]

  they that they drive with their heads [TS]

  out of the van like here we come walking [TS]

  down your street and they're like what [TS]

  are you doing man and you know they live [TS]

  in Bellingham right so so uh so I'm like [TS]

  hey guys [TS]

  ah the West would say hurricane breaking [TS]

  up and they're like what get in the van [TS]

  and so I got in a van and they drove me [TS]

  to Bellingham because there was just [TS]

  nothing at you know I didn't have [TS]

  anything going on huh drove me to [TS]

  Bellingham and we all went to see the [TS]

  matrix which was a movie that I had not [TS]

  even heard of at that point because I [TS]

  hadn't been following the trades we got [TS]

  we got to the movie theater and they're [TS]

  like come on we're gonna go see a movie [TS]

  you know I was 29 at this point and they [TS]

  were all 22 23 so it was so it was so I [TS]

  always felt a little bit like okay you [TS]

  guys I'll go to the movies with you and [TS]

  it was it was great and it was great not [TS]

  necessarily because the matrix was great [TS]

  but because there wasn't anything like [TS]

  that before and then and I didn't have [TS]

  any foreshadowing and I just went into [TS]

  this movie and I'll stretch a good [TS]

  feeling yeah yeah it was it was neat so [TS]

  I still have a lot of a lot of [TS]

  sentimentality around the first Matrix [TS]

  movie and I can't separate it from [TS]

  whether or not I think it's a good movie [TS]

  because I suspect that it doesn't acquit [TS]

  with my normal desire for movie [TS]

  narratives to line up - you know what I [TS]

  mean I do yeah I watch it again not too [TS]

  long ago [TS]

  partly to figure out like when it's [TS]

  going to be appropriate to show this to [TS]

  my kid answer not yet um but uh man it's [TS]

  it still looks really good it still [TS]

  feels [TS]

  really good I mean for being as [TS]

  quote-unquote old as it is it still [TS]

  feels pretty fresh and it's I mean maybe [TS]

  again maybe I'm just reliving my first [TS]

  you know watching of it but it also just [TS]

  it still feels like this is one of those [TS]

  movies I don't know what like 2001 or [TS]

  Star Wars or I don't know there's lots [TS]

  of movies like that where like it's so [TS]

  difficult to when you go back and watch [TS]

  movies that were made after this you [TS]

  know like every phone looks like an [TS]

  iPhone now it's like that movie wasn't [TS]

  just the bullet time I mean you know [TS]

  everything being green had already been [TS]

  going on for a while but it was just so [TS]

  audacious the two of them the Wachowski [TS]

  czar so audacious about how they present [TS]

  things and they're not above like like a [TS]

  superhero shot of the team coming out [TS]

  the door and like it's just it's it's [TS]

  the wrong I think it's still really good [TS]

  I I mean my question to you is are all [TS]

  of the matrix tropes - it doesn't have [TS]

  that effect where you watch it and [TS]

  you're like it feels uh it feels cheap [TS]

  because everything that's come [TS]

  subsequently stole from it does it feel [TS]

  like tripe right right right I don't [TS]

  think so [TS]

  I mean you know bullet time filming [TS]

  became kind of a fad but it doesn't hurt [TS]

  that they did it was used in the service [TS]

  of the story so well like that in the [TS]

  sort of like pre credit scene when [TS]

  they're about to find Carrie Moss and [TS]

  she's just standing in that room like [TS]

  staring and then you know she just [TS]

  starts kicking the shit out of everybody [TS]

  and like it's it's I think it still [TS]

  looks fantastic it's it's a weird [TS]

  audacious movie I mean maybe a little [TS]

  bit I mean in a different way sort of [TS]

  like guardians of the galaxy we were [TS]

  like you know if you told somebody the [TS]

  story you go alright whatever [TS]

  but it's the implementation it's just [TS]

  it's so well implemented I don't know I [TS]

  don't think it feels dated at all I [TS]

  think there's a lot of like mumblecore [TS]

  for the last 10 years that is aged a lot [TS]

  more poorly uh you're talking about [TS]

  mumblecore which is the Seattle [TS]

  invention and we take that very [TS]

  personally sorry I did not mean to [TS]

  culturally-appropriate you're mumbling [TS]

  um tell me very briefly with no spoiler [TS]

  alerts because I know how passionately [TS]

  people feel about spoilers um tell me [TS]

  how you feel about the most recent [TS]

  guardians of the galaxy movie which I [TS]

  have to assume you saw an opening day we [TS]

  saw it pretty early on well I you know I [TS]

  went in with as much as I tried to mute [TS]

  my expectations they were still [TS]

  impossibly high because of how [TS]

  thoroughly I enjoyed the first one I [TS]

  remember you talking about I remember [TS]

  what two three years ago when you [TS]

  mentioned you saw it I didn't want to [TS]

  hear what you thought because I was [TS]

  scared you wouldn't like it and I'd be [TS]

  sad you know it's one of those I feel [TS]

  like there's I've been struggling for a [TS]

  while not a cop with a name for certain [TS]

  kinds of media properties you can't even [TS]

  really discuss rationally or [TS]

  intellectually we were like for an [TS]

  obvious example dismiss right where's [TS]

  like you know just give me that one like [TS]

  I'm not gonna I'm not trying to persuade [TS]

  you to like this but this is a thing [TS]

  that I like and that's just how it is [TS]

  when you try to persuade me to like the [TS]

  Smith for a long time I think I I think [TS]

  I tried to correct you on how wrong you [TS]

  are about this mess but I don't think [TS]

  I'd wanted you to like become a super [TS]

  fan but uh I went into it and I thought [TS]

  you know it um there's there's a there's [TS]

  several things about it on several [TS]

  levels that I didn't love one of which [TS]

  was like the team being split up like a [TS]

  lot of the fun throw us a movie the [TS]

  team's not together which works [TS]

  sometimes like in like a rogue one like [TS]

  that makes sense but like you know I [TS]

  Orion you know any the Star Wars movies [TS]

  you go off and have your little side [TS]

  adventures and stuff but you eventually [TS]

  get back together and ya get the team [TS]

  together yeah I mean by me a lot of what [TS]

  I mean they have their reasons for [TS]

  making it the way they did but it had a [TS]

  lot of the the pixie dust that made the [TS]

  first one special like the whole opening [TS]

  sequence with Groot dancing around is is [TS]

  really cute I think groots cuteness is a [TS]

  little bit overused and I'm a big Groot [TS]

  fan not by large I thought it was good [TS]

  I thought it was good but it's i damning [TS]

  it with faint praise because i like the [TS]

  first one so much and the basic test for [TS]

  all these kinds of things this goes for [TS]

  Pixar's goes for Miyazaki this goes for [TS]

  any of these Marvel movies especially [TS]

  with genre movies it's really comes down [TS]

  to how much I think about it after I [TS]

  leave the theater and I just I can't [TS]

  even remember [TS]

  what happened in the movie and I was [TS]

  absolutely paying attention it just it [TS]

  didn't it didn't feel you know it's [TS]

  there's this irony especially in [TS]

  superhero movies about like like the [TS]

  bigness of the adventure is not always [TS]

  you know the big Highness of the stakes [TS]

  does not always pay off and how it gets [TS]

  rolled out and so like for example the [TS]

  Netflix shows like daredevil the stakes [TS]

  are smaller but you're way more invested [TS]

  so I don't know I'm kind of rambling but [TS]

  like I wanted to love it as much as I [TS]

  loved the first one which is such a high [TS]

  bar but I thought it was merely good [TS]

  mm-hmm what about you well you know my [TS]

  experience of the first one was going in [TS]

  again with some you know some group of [TS]

  22 year olds in a van pulled up and said [TS]

  let's go to the movies I don't remember [TS]

  which band it was I was like all right [TS]

  I'll go to the movies with you some kind [TS]

  of superhero movie and I had never [TS]

  here's the thing right I don't I am such [TS]

  a such a non participate in Marvel [TS]

  Comics culture that I had never heard of [TS]

  guardians of galaxy I had never heard of [TS]

  any of the characters in it or any of [TS]

  the tangential characters I did not have [TS]

  any I had nothing I was like guardians [TS]

  of the galaxy okay whatever you say and [TS]

  I honestly even after I left the theater [TS]

  and for maybe a couple of weeks [TS]

  afterwards I thought it was a completely [TS]

  discrete creation like they had invented [TS]

  those characters for the purposes of [TS]

  this movie only I didn't realize it [TS]

  pre-existed right right as a as a comic [TS]

  book I guess right I think even even a [TS]

  fairly ardent reader of comics over the [TS]

  years would describe them as probably at [TS]

  best obscure there it's definitely not [TS]

  like an Iron Man kind of you know a [TS]

  level set of characters but I mean and [TS]

  the team's changed over time and like I [TS]

  don't think it's one of those things [TS]

  like Alpha Flight like how many people [TS]

  besides you know Wolverine can people [TS]

  name from Alpha Flight near the list of [TS]

  the items but just in a sense that like [TS]

  it was not it was it really felt like a [TS]

  like a Hail Mary in terms of bringing up [TS]

  these characters that the garden-variety [TS]

  comic fan is not familiar with in the [TS]

  garden-variety comic movie [TS]

  has probably never heard of and couldn't [TS]

  pick out of a lineup yeah and and you [TS]

  know where is the on paper like how is [TS]

  this going to be how is anybody going to [TS]

  identify with this or you know like [TS]

  where is the how is this a franchise [TS]

  right right and and I went and and the [TS]

  movie starts out and here the the guy [TS]

  comes with his goggles and he and he [TS]

  puts his cassette out there on a bow [TS]

  starts dancing and and initially I was [TS]

  like oh this is going to be this huh [TS]

  this here's where we are well that [TS]

  opened uh the kind of cold open is the [TS]

  flashback which was brutal I mean oh I [TS]

  was like oh my gosh I hope the rest of [TS]

  movie is gonna be this rough right [TS]

  that's right okay so I guess that did [TS]

  that cold open got me in it was like the [TS]

  cold open of uh of inglourious basterds [TS]

  right where I really did feel like this [TS]

  movie is gonna be really hardcore and [TS]

  and good because both cold opens [TS]

  fantastic right just like what am i [TS]

  watching yeah and then the then the [TS]

  cassette thing and I was like okay okay [TS]

  okay but then even that scene but by by [TS]

  three-quarters the way through I was [TS]

  like oh this is not bad this is good and [TS]

  the Garden guardians of the galaxy was [TS]

  such a thrill ride for me because I [TS]

  couldn't believe that there were people [TS]

  this smart and funny that we're making [TS]

  movies it just didn't seem it didn't [TS]

  seem possible given how I got the room [TS]

  assignment like wait a minute yeah are [TS]

  you sure you're supposed to be in here [TS]

  should you be in like French new-wave [TS]

  there are hundreds of thousands of [TS]

  people in Hollywood making movies all [TS]

  the time and I and none of them come up [TS]

  with anything close to this in terms of [TS]

  script in terms of you know whoever the [TS]

  continuity people were they were good [TS]

  you know that's the thing about [TS]

  continuity right there [TS]

  so unsung because if they're doing their [TS]

  job you don't notice them it's only the [TS]

  ones that are not doing it's only the [TS]

  script doctors that are not thinking [TS]

  about whether or not their ship makes [TS]

  sense that stand out so this is just [TS]

  like I fell in love with the raccoon I [TS]

  didn't even understand Groot I didn't [TS]

  end that whole right like why is this [TS]

  tree even in this but it was he's [TS]

  wonderful he's a [TS]

  really sweet tree who occasionally [TS]

  becomes incredibly violent yeah yeah and [TS]

  and I identified with everybody in the [TS]

  movie and and so when guardians of the [TS]

  galaxy 2 started coming out when that's [TS]

  they started to roll it out I I did that [TS]

  I got spooked I was like no no no no no [TS]

  no no how are you gonna do this this is [TS]

  you know you're gonna screw this up I [TS]

  bet Hollywood aren't you aren't you [TS]

  Hollywood yeah and then as it got closer [TS]

  and closer and everybody was so hyped up [TS]

  I was like I've seen this before I [TS]

  remember when you were waiting in line [TS]

  for the Phantom Menace you dumb people [TS]

  don't do this to yourselves what I saw [TS]

  my friend and more until he'd wondered [TS]

  if he'd ever see he's you know 10 maybe [TS]

  10 years younger than me maybe more but [TS]

  he uh he had wondered if there'd ever be [TS]

  another Star Wars in his lifetime and he [TS]

  saw it like three times in one weekend [TS]

  and each time he was like that was good [TS]

  right like if you try to figure it out [TS]

  yeah the thing you're like it must be me [TS]

  I mean this is George Lucas George Lucas [TS]

  is the force man like this is yeah I I'm [TS]

  missing something I should keep going [TS]

  back to this nothing until I get it [TS]

  right good right those guys right you [TS]

  guys right and everybody's like that [TS]

  yeah um I was I was like that when I [TS]

  went to see Hitchhiker's Guide to the [TS]

  galaxy because it had everything it had [TS]

  ever it had Sam Rockwell who I think is [TS]

  the greatest he's the greatest living [TS]

  actor everything like saying we watched [TS]

  Iron Man 2 a couple times in the last [TS]

  week which i think is a highly [TS]

  underrated movie and you know it's weird [TS]

  they bring his character and so late in [TS]

  that movie but like everything he's in [TS]

  the moment he appears on screen the [TS]

  movie just comes alive he Sarah is so [TS]

  entertaining he's so great he's the one [TS]

  Hollywood actor I'm I'm pretty confident [TS]

  when I say he is the one single [TS]

  Hollywood actor that I would actually [TS]

  want to meet that I've you know that I [TS]

  would be like if somebody said we're [TS]

  gonna go meet Sam Rockwell I would be [TS]

  like oh oh oh okay oh I'm cool you know [TS]

  like I would be I'm not I feeling I [TS]

  would be I would be weird right he's the [TS]

  one guy I would be weird and and my [TS]

  sense is he's he's not he's not one of [TS]

  those in like dumb intense Hollywood [TS]

  actor [TS]

  where he's out crashing his car or [TS]

  there's like swatting around being [TS]

  intense but he does feel like somebody [TS]

  who who I just I feel like he's probably [TS]

  a pretty intense dude [TS]

  i I'm maybe one day fate the fates will [TS]

  bring us together in Sam Rockwell and I [TS]

  will be able to carry on a conversation [TS]

  because I would be I would look forward [TS]

  to it cuz I just love I just love him I [TS]

  love his face I love his voice I love [TS]

  everything every time he's in a movie [TS]

  whatever reason he's really in the movie [TS]

  without having it up but he is such a [TS]

  presence somebody I mean in a completely [TS]

  different angle like Melissa McCarthy [TS]

  we're like whatever material she is [TS]

  given and it is certainly not always [TS]

  great like I feel like she just brings [TS]

  it alive and I just want to watch what [TS]

  she does next and I think he's like that [TS]

  and movie like moon I mean how many [TS]

  people could pull off a movie that crazy [TS]

  it's it's such a mode that no spoilers [TS]

  but it's a very strange movie but I [TS]

  totally agree but he okay so we're on Oh [TS]

  Hitchhiker's Guide and you got Tim from [TS]

  the office mm-hmm you can play who's the [TS]

  best guy in the office I thought oh [TS]

  absolutely and get severus snape as the [TS]

  voice of Marvin right yep yep Saravanan [TS]

  Magellan Rickman neon Marvin all right [TS]

  Alan Rickman is in the movie isn't he as [TS]

  a as a face character I don't know or am [TS]

  I thinking of I think he's more of an [TS]

  looking up there is there is a superhero [TS]

  movie or some kind of movie where he's [TS]

  in a spacesuit he's in a galaxy quest [TS]

  galaxy quests that very amusing movie [TS]

  that's it that's it 2005 another high [TS]

  concept movie that Galaxy Quest where [TS]

  it's like you guys came up with an idea [TS]

  that's good boy this is a haircut you [TS]

  got you got Zooey Deschanel in it you [TS]

  gotta fry richard griffiths that's a [TS]

  Vernon Dursley isn't it because of [TS]

  course I judge everything by who they [TS]

  were in a Harry Potter movie it's like [TS]

  he got a Malkovich I've never seen it I [TS]

  love the book my daughter and I have [TS]

  read the book oh you've never seen [TS]

  Hitchhiker's Guide the movie now I've [TS]

  heard some of the radio play from back [TS]

  in the day but I just the movie I don't [TS]

  know is scared you know the feel the [TS]

  book yeah the book has [TS]

  Jitender right it just has such a like [TS]

  any any anything can happen [TS]

  they just he just describes it so well [TS]

  and you're like I you know I don't even [TS]

  want to see what a Vogon looks like just [TS]

  just keep describing all that stuff yeah [TS]

  and it's tried there have been attempts [TS]

  made to adapt it for a long time as you [TS]

  know radio play and the everything right [TS]

  TV show the cereal box the and it's [TS]

  never 100% succeeded and here was this [TS]

  movie with all these perfect just the [TS]

  perfect cast I couldn't have done a [TS]

  better job of putting this movie [TS]

  together yeah and no spoilers but it is [TS]

  like just a it's a turnip unch Bowl is [TS]

  it it pretty leaden yeah that's exactly [TS]

  what happens there's no there's no [TS]

  where's the lightness like this is [TS]

  supposed to be hilarious and it there's [TS]

  everybody's just walking around mugging [TS]

  and there's no there's no joy in [TS]

  Mudville and uh that was one where I did [TS]

  go in with pretty high expectations and [TS]

  halfway through the movie I said this is [TS]

  not good this is no good this is like [TS]

  this is like every twenty no movie in [TS]

  the last ten years no good I have a [TS]

  friend who is a comic writer and one of [TS]

  his comics have you seen that trailer [TS]

  for atomic blonde with Charlize Theron [TS]

  no I like Shirley schuk is there on like [TS]

  kicking butt in Berlin in the late 80s [TS]

  good goosey god it's really good but but [TS]

  so anyway I've kind of cool awesome his [TS]

  his comic the coldest city is has been [TS]

  made into a movie that comes out soon [TS]

  but but he has done he's done all kinds [TS]

  of different work including adaptations [TS]

  oh yeah and yes he has some interesting [TS]

  thoughts on and I'm always interested to [TS]

  hear this kind of stuff from someone who [TS]

  actually does it versus somebody who [TS]

  just reckons how it should go [TS]

  so like you know don't ask most comic [TS]

  fans how you could make that into a [TS]

  movie um though we have no context for [TS]

  that you have your I mean you may but [TS]

  you mainly have your very strong you [TS]

  know emotional feelings like what to [TS]

  leave in what to leave out like a Bob [TS]

  Seger song [TS]

  against the wind still wanna dance to [TS]

  win but but you know it's and one of the [TS]

  interesting thoughts he has is that like [TS]

  you know he's not it this sounds obvious [TS]

  but it's so important he's not against [TS]

  changing the story like you've got to [TS]

  adapt to this medium there's all kinds [TS]

  of stuff that you have to there may be [TS]

  characters you have to add there may be [TS]

  characters you have to combine there may [TS]

  be things and like it's it's such an [TS]

  artful thing and look no further than [TS]

  our friend Coppola The Godfather [TS]

  the first Godfather book which I read [TS]

  most of is fine but it's fine it's not [TS]

  the movie that you see on screen it's [TS]

  the result of a fantastic collaboration [TS]

  adaptation obviously the town I mean [TS]

  it's you know where they say success has [TS]

  a thousand fathers and failures an [TS]

  orphan it's but you know it takes so [TS]

  many people to take something from one [TS]

  medium into another and if it isn't just [TS]

  a naked cash grab we're trying to cash [TS]

  in on you know like oh the popularity of [TS]

  Bratz dolls let's make a movie [TS]

  you know is there something very artful [TS]

  and special and then on top of it it's [TS]

  not even like you're like an [TS]

  up-and-coming indie director who wants [TS]

  to make something like like Primmer [TS]

  like let's say you've got or primer as [TS]

  you say like if you've if you've got to [TS]

  this got people in comics suffer from [TS]

  this you go in with all this weight of [TS]

  expectations I mean can you imagine [TS]

  being Joss Whedon and going into like be [TS]

  troubled Avengers project and then like [TS]

  taking over think that's it's incredibly [TS]

  difficult there's just there's so many [TS]

  requirements and so many boxes to tick [TS]

  and then on top of all that you have to [TS]

  make it even if you had like an int like [TS]

  I say with an indie film there's a [TS]

  chance you could get it through a small [TS]

  version of the Machine intact but like [TS]

  imagine that extra level of difficulty [TS]

  of having to make it an adaptation that [TS]

  survives all that stuff where you've [TS]

  like very carefully you've put together [TS]

  this thing that's like almost like a [TS]

  house of cards a character and plot and [TS]

  we have this much budget like you know [TS]

  like in The Hulk movie we can only show [TS]

  the Hulk this much because we don't have [TS]

  that much money etc etc so I just I have [TS]

  a lot of admiration for people who pull [TS]

  it off because like you said if it [TS]

  worked well you don't notice why it was [TS]

  great and if it doesn't work well all [TS]

  you can do is obsess about what they [TS]

  should have done differently yeah and I [TS]

  I feel like they're - you touched on two [TS]

  things right and one of them is the the [TS]

  classic thing that we had that we [TS]

  in the music recording business which is [TS]

  that the more people from the head [TS]

  office that come down to your recording [TS]

  session the more they are going to [TS]

  destroy what you're doing it's all they [TS]

  can do is destroy what you're doing all [TS]

  they have is the counter of subtraction [TS]

  yeah right and so on mixing boards in [TS]

  studios all over the world there are and [TS]

  I swear this is both done for comedic [TS]

  effect and also absolutely true there [TS]

  are little sections of mixing boards [TS]

  where the where things are like [TS]

  disconnected and when someone an A&R guy [TS]

  or somebody from the label comes and [TS]

  wants to contribute a really good [TS]

  producer will say hey here is this sect [TS]

  you know they're like why don't we bring [TS]

  the bass up why don't we take the [TS]

  tambourine down why don't we change the [TS]

  and he'll actually put his hands on some [TS]

  knobs and say here you know like as the [TS]

  mix is going by can you make those [TS]

  adjustments here on these four knobs and [TS]

  let me demonstrate for you next yes the [TS]

  knobs are not connected to anything and [TS]

  the the an our guy will sit there and [TS]

  make these minor minor adjustments on on [TS]

  blank knobs and be like they're like [TS]

  that and everybody's like whoa yes thank [TS]

  you [TS]

  really many sweetens up the sound yeah [TS]

  you did it man you found the sweet spot [TS]

  anyway thanks for stopping by [TS]

  and I think to to be in Hollywood and to [TS]

  keep your thing alive you have to be [TS]

  very good at that type of thing where [TS]

  you're where you're a little bit of bit [TS]

  misdirection of the of the A&R guy where [TS]

  there's all these people from the [TS]

  theater the studio they're like you know [TS]

  it would be great is it the if there was [TS]

  like a little kid like a precocious [TS]

  little kid that wears glasses that like [TS]

  says funny stuff and you go that is a [TS]

  great idea here you know like what if we [TS]

  made that kid a full-grown adult who [TS]

  didn't ever say anything funny what [TS]

  about that that was your idea my guy's [TS]

  like amazing so I think you've got to be [TS]

  able to do that and not do what I do [TS]

  which is like what get the fuck out of [TS]

  here you know because that's the way [TS]

  that you lose that's what you lose [TS]

  you gotta give them some kind of a like [TS]

  we got a computer here something called [TS]

  the heat sink right like you need to [TS]

  give them an input sink you need to give [TS]

  them some kind of a way to have input [TS]

  without unintentionally you know doing [TS]

  something destructive but you also need [TS]

  to not it seems to me you also need to [TS]

  not make it like Wow keep coming back [TS]

  because we could sure use lots of tips [TS]

  and tricks uh yeah [TS]

  yeah I don't know how you do it [TS]

  particularly when you've got people in [TS]

  Hollywood or in business who really [TS]

  think they're they're hot and who are [TS]

  smart enough that they have gotten where [TS]

  they've gotten so they're not just you [TS]

  can't just misdirect them like throw a [TS]

  tennis ball down the hall and like hey [TS]

  go get it boy you know you've got a it's [TS]

  that it's these guys that we're always [TS]

  talking about right the the like the [TS]

  middle-aged dude who never thought you [TS]

  think's she's amazing and that's right [TS]

  that's who you have to find a way to [TS]

  like give him something real that they [TS]

  know because they're on the lookout for [TS]

  you to give them a button that doesn't [TS]

  work right they they're they that's how [TS]

  they that that's part of their identity [TS]

  is like they're nobody's fool so how you [TS]

  contend with them in a Hollywood [TS]

  situation I don't know but that's less [TS]

  interesting to me than the other thing [TS]

  that you were touching on which is [TS]

  somehow to maintain tonight then that [TS]

  the word outsider is is so overused that [TS]

  we that we forget that it originally had [TS]

  a meaning but like how to maintain the [TS]

  perspective of a child through a massive [TS]

  undertaking like this how to maintain [TS]

  that the simplicity of like does this [TS]

  work or not does this make me laugh or [TS]

  not does this do I understand this or [TS]

  not and not get not get broken up into [TS]

  all these sort of like here's a vignette [TS]

  we're working on this vignette and how [TS]

  it fits into the rest of the movie we [TS]

  don't care how it you know like we've [TS]

  got a team working on this vignette and [TS]

  they're honing it and everything they [TS]

  add or take away is actually [TS]

  screwing up how it fits into the film [TS]

  but no one's no one is coordinating it [TS]

  no one is there's no executive here [TS]

  because this has all been balkanized by [TS]

  someone up up higher who's like you know [TS]

  we need we need to bring in an action [TS]

  guy for this scene we need to bring in [TS]

  the script writers from this action film [TS]

  to put more action into this scene in [TS]

  this comedy or you know and I and I've [TS]

  hit on this in other topics to talking [TS]

  to you which is that at a certain point [TS]

  expertise can be the enemy we we are so [TS]

  you know we fetishize expertise in this [TS]

  culture and so all of our teachers are [TS]

  people who have pursued like an [TS]

  education trajectory in their own [TS]

  education yeah and all of our designers [TS]

  have pursued designing extensively [TS]

  exclusively and we have eliminated so [TS]

  much the the sense that what the world [TS]

  needs is people educated broadly and in [TS]

  a film especially I feel like there [TS]

  should be someone working in the working [TS]

  on a film that doesn't know anything [TS]

  about film right that that hasn't read [TS]

  the the book you know that's just a a [TS]

  reader and a knowledgeable person who [TS]

  you run things by and go what is this [TS]

  how does this I mean it's basically like [TS]

  running it by your dad or you know or [TS]

  like in my case your mom where like mom [TS]

  does this scan and mom's like who's the [TS]

  who's the one in the Hat and like oh [TS]

  right right right because when I wrote [TS]

  it I put in all this explication about [TS]

  the one in the Hat and then I took it [TS]

  out in a subsequent edit but the one in [TS]

  the Hat is still in the movie it doesn't [TS]

  make any sense because he because the [TS]

  the backstory got edited out thanks mom [TS]

  mm-hmm like a little bit of a sanity [TS]

  check yeah but how do you go into a [TS]

  business situation [TS]

  and say and and make a case for someone [TS]

  who isn't an expert make a case for the [TS]

  the input of someone where you all [TS]

  you're saying about them is I trust this [TS]

  person here just you a lot of directors [TS]

  and showrunners in TV have their own [TS]

  kind of brain trust that they can run [TS]

  stuff by you know that you wouldn't need [TS]

  necessarily somebody who's just like an [TS]

  absolute beginner but but I take your [TS]

  point it the other get one other [TS]

  challenge of expertise that can like I [TS]

  like that absolute beginners drop in [TS]

  their that like that the the other thing [TS]

  with expertise is though there's so many [TS]

  levels to expertise starting at the end [TS]

  of there's all in one end you start out [TS]

  not knowing what you don't even know you [TS]

  need to know or not know like there's [TS]

  just there's that you know the total [TS]

  zero I don't even know anything about [TS]

  this thing and of course you move up and [TS]

  up and up but even if you become very [TS]

  very good at something I think it's [TS]

  still important to understand where your [TS]

  expertise is appropriate and you know [TS]

  where your expertise applies where your [TS]

  expertise can be used useful or or where [TS]

  your confidence [TS]

  conversely where your confidence in your [TS]

  own expertise might be a cataract that [TS]

  causes you to start trying to solve a [TS]

  problem that you've been comfortable [TS]

  solving before to where you're almost [TS]

  like somebody who let's say you're a TV [TS]

  critic who's watched thousands of hours [TS]

  of reality cooking shows and like you [TS]

  know them backwards and forwards and so [TS]

  what you do you like walk into the [TS]

  kitchen and like here's the name of a [TS]

  pasta that you know that you say they [TS]

  should throw in the soup or you know [TS]

  what I mean like oh one time they want [TS]

  on top shell Top Chef with this the part [TS]

  of expertise is also knowing when to say [TS]

  like no I don't really know about this [TS]

  like you know what I mean that that I [TS]

  don't have to have you know I don't need [TS]

  to put my fingers on the faders in order [TS]

  to have an influence on how this works [TS]

  that there should be a way that I can [TS]

  adjust what I know and what I've learned [TS]

  to deploy that in a way that's useful [TS]

  and positive rather than something [TS]

  that's just there for you to be able to [TS]

  put a mark on it and and and this is [TS]

  something that I this is I think you're [TS]

  at the crux right where if you have [TS]

  tremendous accomplishment and you have [TS]

  made your bone [TS]

  and you and and you are already a hero [TS]

  in your craft and then you can be then [TS]

  you can be a character that uh that sits [TS]

  in the back of the room with sunglasses [TS]

  on maybe asleep maybe not while the [TS]

  whole thing goes and you are thinking to [TS]

  yourself this is all going well it does [TS]

  not need my intervention and you can get [TS]

  away with it because people are like [TS]

  well it's the master right that and so [TS]

  so that hands-off Ness is I mean Quincy [TS]

  Jones presumably does not sit in a chair [TS]

  and and or doesn't jump up out of his [TS]

  chair and go move the 57 on the snare [TS]

  yeah he's the producer is not the [TS]

  engineer right but but you know you'd be [TS]

  surprised right as yet the number of and [TS]

  so there are those people that you [TS]

  understand right that that Carol King is [TS]

  not going to say she's not going to be [TS]

  down in the deep in the weeds if [TS]

  something's going well right she's not [TS]

  going to screw up something but then [TS]

  there's the vast majority of people in [TS]

  the middle of their profession who in a [TS]

  lot of ways you know people are gunning [TS]

  for their job there's a lot of there's [TS]

  competition there in the mix and they're [TS]

  at a stage in their career where people [TS]

  are like are you the are you a genius [TS]

  are you the next genius and there's got [TS]

  to be so much pressure on them to look [TS]

  like they're working basically right [TS]

  it's got to be so hard for somebody in [TS]

  the middle of a creative career business [TS]

  business yeah right just to be like now [TS]

  this is going well and what what I meet [TS]

  you know what a great director does is [TS]

  not mess with success or you know like [TS]

  and so that accounts I think for the the [TS]

  giant jumble of garbage that's like that [TS]

  you know the the guy er the the guy er [TS]

  of plastic that's in the it's rotating [TS]

  around the Pacific that we call our [TS]

  mainstream culture but it's those [TS]

  creatives I just use the word okay you [TS]

  get a freebie get one it's it's the [TS]

  people that from a very young age have [TS]

  the [TS]

  confidence to be sparing from a from you [TS]

  know throughout their career like if [TS]

  when I think about Prince being a [TS]

  teenager walking around Minneapolis [TS]

  hears teenage Prince walking around [TS]

  Minneapolis and he's going to like open [TS]

  mics and he's in his high school band [TS]

  and he's you know like he was a high [TS]

  schooler right Prince didn't fall from [TS]

  the sky he was just another weird kid [TS]

  with temples he's a weird kid with [TS]

  pimples it was like practicing the [TS]

  guitar in on his bed nobody sees Prince [TS]

  coming but from the very beginning he [TS]

  had the confidence to be Prince because [TS]

  there there aren't like seven Prince [TS]

  albums where he's trying to figure it [TS]

  out right you know he's like he hit the [TS]

  ground pretty pretty running huh and [TS]

  doing all these things like I was [TS]

  listening to I was listening to a track [TS]

  a Prince track yesterday where he's like [TS]

  he has pre-delay right when I forget I'm [TS]

  blanking on the tune but like the vocal [TS]

  melody oh it's a little red Corvette um [TS]

  where there's where does oh it's on the [TS]

  bridge yeah there's a pre-echo yeah on [TS]

  the verge of being obscene that part on [TS]

  the verge on the verge of being obscene [TS]

  yeah and it's like what I mean that's so [TS]

  natural it's so beautiful and so [TS]

  wonderful and I'm I'm sure Prince didn't [TS]

  invent it but and and I let me see what [TS]

  what is the what is the explanation for [TS]

  I remember I remember hearing it [TS]

  described how it was discovered which [TS]

  was that um when the tape real when the [TS]

  when the the tune is being wound back on [TS]

  the tape real there's a little bleed and [TS]

  there's little bleed through the tape or [TS]

  on the tape where you get this pre-delay [TS]

  because the you know the part actually [TS]

  is like sort of [TS]

  ghosts into the track I think that's [TS]

  true on old on old recording media well [TS]

  but but this is not that this isn't [TS]

  bleed this was an intentional thing [TS]

  where he was like I'm gonna I'm gonna do [TS]

  this and and he was he was young enough [TS]

  then I guess and there weren't as many [TS]

  eyes on him that he could get away with [TS]

  it there wasn't somebody like wait wait [TS]

  wait Prince that's a little crazy that [TS]

  those people the people that that don't [TS]

  second-guess themselves or if they do [TS]

  they just they there's a voice of [TS]

  confidence in them maybe ken well you [TS]

  know new young to an extent because he's [TS]

  like whatever he's doing in the past [TS]

  he's pod committed on whatever that [TS]

  album is my god have you seen that [TS]

  footage of him on German television or [TS]

  whatever it is Dutch television have I [TS]

  sent you those links just him playing [TS]

  solo in playing solo I've seen ones from [TS]

  around the time between um that comes a [TS]

  time what's the one what's my favorite [TS]

  album after the gold rush but before [TS]

  harvest reads like playing songs from [TS]

  harvest I've seen a bunch of footage [TS]

  from that era that's like pretty [TS]

  stunning that were you talking about [TS]

  yeah yeah he's 22 years old he's sitting [TS]

  on a chair and he's like the techne one [TS]

  he looks like looks like he's from The [TS]

  Young Ones he's just long hair and just [TS]

  roll and he's like this is a new one I [TS]

  wrote it's called old man it's about a [TS]

  guy that lives in my farm and he plays [TS]

  it on the acoustic guitar and it's [TS]

  complete right it's it is a complete [TS]

  work it's not like he's it's not like [TS]

  he's working on it and that records not [TS]

  out and just him in a guitar it's all [TS]

  there you know you don't there isn't a [TS]

  banjo part there isn't a backing vocal [TS]

  but it doesn't matter because and you [TS]

  know and I'm I'm not just in awe I'm not [TS]

  just watching this and going like whoa [TS]

  because I know the song backwards and [TS]

  forwards and I and I don't have the [TS]

  ability to distinguish my own love of [TS]

  the thing from the actual thing like I'm [TS]

  I am capable of looking at that and [TS]

  saying that is actually phenomenal and [TS]

  his parts are simple this is the the [TS]

  wonderful thing about about truly great [TS]

  stuff it's just simple it'd be easy to [TS]

  play [TS]

  but there it is it's a kit some it's a [TS]

  masterpiece and he's just this young [TS]

  like dirt in his hair [TS]

  Canadian that's the least likely part [TS]

  yep [TS]

  with his with this bowl haircut driving [TS]

  around Hollywood in a Cadillac hearse [TS]

  like what the hell what what so so that [TS]

  those those people and then on the far [TS]

  far end of the spectrum you've got Neil [TS]

  Young now who's 75 who in a way the fact [TS]

  that he has never answered to anybody [TS]

  and doesn't have to answer to anybody [TS]

  maybe is a maybe is acting now slightly [TS]

  has a little bit of a deficit on him [TS]

  just because he's um cuz if he decided [TS]

  he was going to wear clown shoes now [TS]

  like everybody would be like a me [TS]

  amazing amazing Neil and he'd be like [TS]

  yeah but it's it's for those of us in [TS]

  the in the broad middle the giant the [TS]

  giant pile of us in the middle who are [TS]

  like I'm working here a worgen when I [TS]

  listen to the long winters records I put [TS]

  everything on them because if I came up [TS]

  with a with a shaker part I would want [TS]

  it on there mm-hmm [TS]

  and then it's like you know what this [TS]

  track doesn't have a harpsichord it's [TS]

  not like what does this track need a [TS]

  harpsichord it's like what does this [TS]

  track not have a harpsichord and so [TS]

  there are a lot of melodies going on in [TS]

  Tunes that are all very I think [TS]

  satisfying and when you listen to them [TS]

  on headphones it's fun but it doesn't [TS]

  have that um maybe this doesn't always [TS]

  serve the song as much as you would hope [TS]

  well or what five melodies do is not [TS]

  five times better than one great melody [TS]

  yes that's good way to put it like that [TS]

  it was so pepper well like once you [TS]

  start stripping the layers away you know [TS]

  you appreciate so much more of what's [TS]

  actually there mm-hmm and a lot of those [TS]

  decisions a lot of those decisions seem [TS]

  probably simple at the time which is [TS]

  George Wendt George Harrison went Bam [TS]

  Bam pow and they're like it's done and [TS]

  you listen to it now and you're like [TS]

  that's the part yeah what what what was [TS]

  how did they decide they've only got [TS]

  four tracks there's a lot there's a lot [TS]

  of things like that wheels new those the [TS]

  raw tracks there's a lot of stuff really [TS]

  Wow can't that's what they went with it [TS]

  totally worked [TS]

  I was listening the other day too [TS]

  so um uh still trying to figure out the [TS]

  Chris Cornell situation still spending [TS]

  some not in considerable amount of time [TS]

  in the middle of the night staring at [TS]

  staring at the ceiling above my bathtub [TS]

  and going what now what am i what what's [TS]

  my takeaway here but so I I was [TS]

  listening to burden in my hand which is [TS]

  a really wonderful song and burden in my [TS]

  hand has a has the feeling in the in the [TS]

  pre-chorus and chorus of this bass part [TS]

  that is just phenomenal and it's not [TS]

  when you're listening to the entire [TS]

  track you can't quite pick out exactly [TS]

  what the bass is doing but it sounds [TS]

  like a super-duper grunge bass like but [TS]

  we divided boom bidden to be better but [TS]

  differed about and there's a lot of like [TS]

  guitar and stuff going on and there's [TS]

  this Soundgarden II Polly rhythms but [TS]

  Ben Shephard the bass player of of [TS]

  Soundgarden is a local legend here he's [TS]

  a you know he's legendarily like intense [TS]

  guy I've known him tangentially for many [TS]

  years and he's one of the very few [TS]

  people who scares the shit out of me you [TS]

  just scare sketches this episode of [TS]

  Roderick on the line is brought to you [TS]

  by Casper you learn more about Casper [TS]

  right now by visiting Casper dot-com [TS]

  slash supertrain here's the thing Casper [TS]

  is a company that is focused on sleep [TS]

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  because I have slept on a Casper for lo [TS]

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  because we just don't like her that much [TS]

  yet buying a Casper mattress is so easy [TS]

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  our thanks to Casper for supporting [TS]

  Roderick on the line and all the great [TS]

  shows scares the shit out of me he's a [TS]

  he's a big guy and he is just his [TS]

  intensity is up there to the to the [TS]

  point of like hello [TS]

  scary guy but I had a good friend who [TS]

  worked who was oh you know Mike Squires [TS]

  you know Mike's work Harry are all our [TS]

  listeners know Mike Squires guitar [TS]

  player of Duff McKagan 'he's loaded they [TS]

  were on tour at a certain point a long [TS]

  time ago and he met Zakk Wylde for the [TS]

  first time and Mike was a Murray in the [TS]

  Marines Mike is somebody who grew up in [TS]

  an intense environment where you know [TS]

  you had to really be on your toes and he [TS]

  met Zakk Wylde and you know and tried to [TS]

  like Josh with him like hey you know [TS]

  what's up ding-a-ling her I don't know [TS]

  tried to be like Mike Squires about it [TS]

  and and Mike reported back to me that [TS]

  the one guy in the the one guy that [TS]

  scares the shit out of him is Zakk Wylde [TS]

  and he didn't want to he didn't want a [TS]

  monkey with Zakk Wylde which seemed like [TS]

  a reasonable approach to take to Zakk [TS]

  well he's also a very big man and an [TS]

  impressive now my my good friend Andrew [TS]

  mikeg who now is the tour manager of The [TS]

  Experience Hendrix [TS]

  show which tours the world with uh with [TS]

  like all-star cast like Ringo Starr's [TS]

  all-star band except playing Jimi [TS]

  Hendrix music Wow [TS]

  and Zach Zakk Wylde is in that band and [TS]

  he Zach and Andrew now are thick as [TS]

  thieves they they like post videos of [TS]

  each other on Instagram like like cuckoo [TS]

  cuckoo cuckoo cuckoo cuckoo like it's [TS]

  pretty great pretty rock and roll great [TS]

  so I'm no longer um I'm no longer [TS]

  worried about meeting Zach well because [TS]

  I feel like I happenin I can say I'm [TS]

  good friends with Andrew also Merlin [TS]

  this may surprise you to know but my [TS]

  understanding it's just remembering now [TS]

  is that Zach wilds manager listens maybe [TS]

  listens to this program get out of town [TS]

  I'm not a hundred percent sure but I [TS]

  think it's true or at least at one point [TS]

  was huh anyway Ben Shepherd has always [TS]

  scared the shit out of me and he's one [TS]

  of those guys that would just stare at [TS]

  you from across the room you're like [TS]

  that's not good like like hi and he just [TS]

  keeps just like staring but anyway so [TS]

  there's this bass line in the song [TS]

  burden in my hand [TS]

  that for years I wanted to tease out [TS]

  wanted to figure out what what's going [TS]

  on and so the other day I was like I bet [TS]

  you there's something on the internet [TS]

  about this and I'm surprised often when [TS]

  there is not something on the internet [TS]

  about a thing [TS]

  it feels you do this song this has got [TS]

  happened to you huh in my neighborhood I [TS]

  I feel like I'm about to talk about some [TS]

  I'm about to talk about a dream hmm but [TS]

  it's not a dream in my neighborhood [TS]

  there is someone and I'm gonna say I'm [TS]

  pretty confident that it's a guy this [TS]

  someone who late late at night walks [TS]

  around setting off sticks of dynamite [TS]

  mmm [TS]

  how I talked about this before I don't [TS]

  think so [TS]

  I mean they're not cherry bombs they are [TS]

  there's like some significant boomy [TS]

  bottom and so I'll because I'm up late [TS]

  at night I'm lying in bed and some [TS]

  nights I'll hear it all the way across [TS]

  the neighborhood like on the far far far [TS]

  side of neighborhood three o'clock in [TS]

  the morning and it's loud but you can [TS]

  tell it's also very distant and then [TS]

  other times I will hear it nearby so [TS]

  that the windows rattle my god middle of [TS]

  the night and some nights I hear two and [TS]

  maybe once even heard three of these [TS]

  explosions in a single night and heard [TS]

  them at a distance but moving like there [TS]

  was one and then 45 minutes later there [TS]

  was another one over there and then you [TS]

  know an hour later there was another one [TS]

  way over there we awake the whole time [TS]

  with [TS]

  be waking you up no I'm up I'm up and on [TS]

  this is even weirder and this person [TS]

  that I think is probably a guy is also a [TS]

  play but one time I was sitting in my [TS]

  bedroom in my house and a stick of [TS]

  dynamite went out off in the street in [TS]

  front of my house and I saw the flash [TS]

  through the windows it rattled the [TS]

  entire house it rattled my teak it [TS]

  rattled it was like a stick well a stick [TS]

  of dynamite in front of your house yeah [TS]

  yeah you know just like and you're not [TS]

  expecting it all right there's no like [TS]

  five four it's just like and so I [TS]

  typically you give a fella fire in the [TS]

  hole before you do something like that [TS]

  yeah and it's the middle of the goddamn [TS]

  night you know 3:00 a.m. and it's only [TS]

  that I'm just sitting here sorting my [TS]

  cufflinks into boxes that I was awake [TS]

  and saw the flash and so of course I [TS]

  sprinted downstairs in my underpants [TS]

  sprinted out the front door the entire [TS]

  Street is full of black powder smoke [TS]

  there's like shit floating in the air [TS]

  right paper and ship floating in the air [TS]

  and I run out into the middle and [TS]

  there's you know this big black spot on [TS]

  the on the pavement and I'm in the [TS]

  middle of the street and I'm in my like [TS]

  I didn't even have the forethought to [TS]

  take a fencing saber with me I'm just [TS]

  like I am ready to fight whatever [TS]

  mountain lion whatever human bear [TS]

  mountain lion in human shape just thinks [TS]

  that this is a good plan and I'm out in [TS]

  the military and there's no one and I'm [TS]

  looking and I'm looking and then nobody [TS]

  else is running on their underwear no [TS]

  hmm but there's definitely smoke Oh [TS]

  the street is full smoke coming and the [TS]

  and the smoke cloud is 30 feet high I [TS]

  mean it's like a well it's like a bomb [TS]

  went off and two blocks down [TS]

  there is a solitary figure dressed in [TS]

  black and just before and he's at the [TS]

  corner two blocks down and just before [TS]

  he turns [TS]

  he turns [TS]

  he turns and stops and looks back at me [TS]

  and I'm standing in my underwear in the [TS]

  middle of his smoke cloud and it so this [TS]

  this bomb had to have been on a long [TS]

  fuse because he's not running he's fully [TS]

  two blocks away and lit this either with [TS]

  a with a fuse a lit fuse or on some kind [TS]

  of timer or I don't think a remote [TS]

  detonator of some kind but like to put a [TS]

  thing to set off something like this in [TS]

  front of in just a neighborhood Street [TS]

  is one thing but to light it and walk [TS]

  away two blocks away you have no idea [TS]

  who's gonna come along right you could [TS]

  be a block and a half away and all of a [TS]

  sudden a family of five drives up in a [TS]

  super bill you know like a yeah a [TS]

  Griswold machine so and I stand in the [TS]

  street and he stands in the street and [TS]

  we look at each other across this long [TS]

  distance I can't see his face he's just [TS]

  a shadow and I'm like I'm in my bare [TS]

  feet but I just wanted to sprint after [TS]

  this guy but I just knew that it was not [TS]

  it wasn't doable and so he turned the [TS]

  corner and he and there was something in [TS]

  his body language something in his [TS]

  energy that was just like very much like [TS]

  fuck you like just super it felt like [TS]

  they felt like getting a glimpse of a [TS]

  serial killer to me because I've been [TS]

  listening to these bombs go off for a [TS]

  decade and then one other time a a bomb [TS]

  went off in my neighborhood like about [TS]

  two blocks away [TS]

  but close enough that I knew where it [TS]

  happened and I jumped out put on my [TS]

  shoes and ran the two blocks to that [TS]

  location again a huge cloud of smoke [TS]

  stuff still floating in the air and I [TS]

  was hoping that I was coming the [TS]

  direction that he was going but they [TS]

  were but I saw no one and in that [TS]

  situation there was somebody else that [TS]

  came out of their house [TS]

  stood there and looked at each other in [TS]

  the street like what the fuck but I go [TS]

  on the internet and and say you know [TS]

  like who's setting off fucking bombs and [TS]

  and you know there's so many NIMBYs and [TS]

  neighborhood activists and people that [TS]

  are on the internet like there's a [TS]

  barking dog in my neighborhood yeah [TS]

  right I can find nothing mm-hmm about [TS]

  the Mad Bomber of South Seattle noticing [TS]

  and that's so strange when that happens [TS]

  I feel like I'm I'm a crazy person like [TS]

  is no one else here these massive [TS]

  explosions I mean I don't think that [TS]

  he's ever doesn't seem like he's ever [TS]

  hurt anybody I've never heard a police [TS]

  car it never feels like I should call [TS]

  the police because it's like well fait [TS]

  accompli thing went off it's guy in a [TS]

  black hoodies who knows nobody just [TS]

  pranking everybody just pranking and [TS]

  where does he get these amazing bombs [TS]

  another thing I wanted but so I went on [TS]

  the Internet [TS]

  yeah and I googled soloed baseline of [TS]

  burden in my hand I wanted to hear the [TS]

  bass part because I felt like it was [TS]

  really the secret to the song and of [TS]

  course it's there it pops up and I [TS]

  listen to it and it is really hard to [TS]

  understand what is happening because [TS]

  soul load it sounds very bad it doesn't [TS]

  sound well played and it doesn't sound [TS]

  well thought out it sounds kind of like [TS]

  Ben Shephard through a bass down a [TS]

  flight of stairs I'm listening it's got [TS]

  a kind of meandering grungy feeling the [TS]

  song or the baseline to baseline by [TS]

  itself yeah at a great tone well even [TS]

  you know yeah sort of but there are a [TS]

  bunch of comments after the basement [TS]

  afterwards on the youtubes the [TS]

  sloppiness is part of his brilliance [TS]

  yeah exactly and then a lot of other [TS]

  people are like this is an amateur [TS]

  garbage [TS]

  for months well so then somebody in that [TS]

  comment thread posted a thing where they [TS]

  said you need to listen to this in the [TS]

  context and they posted a thing where [TS]

  the band is in the right channel and the [TS]

  base is soloed in the left chance okay [TS]

  and listening to not even you I mean at [TS]

  least I think I get what he's doing I [TS]

  get the bass part now I understand where [TS]

  it lives but I'm just surprised he [TS]

  didn't take another take like I'm [TS]

  surprised that he didn't just try and go [TS]

  and get it a little better mm-hmm and [TS]

  this was a record that they recorded a [TS]

  bad animals studio it must have been you [TS]

  know $1500 a day in the studio this is a [TS]

  major major professional rock album so [TS]

  it had to be intentional everything [TS]

  about it was intentional and when you [TS]

  listen to the track it not only works it [TS]

  works amazingly but there's nothing [TS]

  about the part that would suggest it if [TS]

  you were sitting in the studio and you [TS]

  so load that bass part he tends I mean [TS]

  he sounds I don't get in trouble with [TS]

  this guy because he sounds like a tough [TS]

  guy it says a little bit like a guitar [TS]

  player playing a bass part yeah and [TS]

  they're like weird hammer offs that just [TS]

  sort of you know they're like like a [TS]

  root in a fifth the root routing and [TS]

  octaves and a lot of sliding around but [TS]

  it's a sliding around yeah yeah [TS]

  hammering and like just sort of fret [TS]

  noise and clanks and clunks there are a [TS]

  lot of clanks and clunks it's not a [TS]

  family it's not a clean take um and I've [TS]

  really been chewing on that bass part uh [TS]

  for the last few weeks sort of like if [TS]

  you walk out of Gallic guardians of the [TS]

  galaxy are you thinking about the movie [TS]

  afterwards I'm still thinking about [TS]

  guardians of the galaxy where do you [TS]

  stand it as of now the way she did [TS]

  another take do I wish he had done [TS]

  another take uh no because I think the [TS]

  track is perfect what I listen to burden [TS]

  in my hand I do not think oh I wish that [TS]

  the [TS]

  song was better like it I do feel within [TS]

  at least the Soundgarden style it's it's [TS]

  a high watermark for Soundgarden and yet [TS]

  I cannot as a recordist and a person [TS]

  that's making rock albums I cannot I [TS]

  cannot picture myself in the studio as [TS]

  the guy as the star of the band [TS]

  listening to that bass take and saying [TS]

  great write print it and so it's another [TS]

  example another piece of evidence that [TS]

  I'm missing something or you know that I [TS]

  that that there is a that that's a form [TS]

  of perfection but if it works for their [TS]

  song it works right well but that's [TS]

  exactly right and that's what we're [TS]

  saying about George Harrison BAM all [TS]

  right yeah but if you solo things which [TS]

  is what you do in a studio like you [TS]

  record the bass part live with the band [TS]

  and then you go and you solo things to [TS]

  hear how they sound to make sure that [TS]

  they all line up and they work contrary [TS]

  to what you might imagine listening to a [TS]

  song or an album like for the early [TS]

  stages of that song you're doing nothing [TS]

  but listening to solo solo or grouped [TS]

  instruments like for a long you don't [TS]

  get to hear what the song really sounds [TS]

  like really for a long time you've [TS]

  probably heard that bass line you know [TS]

  numerous numerous times by its size yeah [TS]

  or oh and usually you're listening to it [TS]

  with the drums right and you're saying [TS]

  does this does this work and even if it [TS]

  was working with the drums when you so [TS]

  load it and you heard all the noise and [TS]

  the chaos I cannot imagine that the [TS]

  people who were getting paid big big [TS]

  dollars to do this had the the [TS]

  cleverness I guess to say that's done I [TS]

  see you know because they because I [TS]

  would assume that they would be trying [TS]

  to justify their enormous salaries by [TS]

  saying let's do this 50 times until you [TS]

  get it right and that's the somewhere in [TS]

  the chain either Ben Shepard was like [TS]

  that's perfect I'm not doing it again [TS]

  which requires either tremendous [TS]

  confidence from him or tremendous fuck [TS]

  you a tude or the producer heard it and [TS]

  was like I wouldn't change a thing which [TS]

  is super smart or like crazy smart or [TS]

  Chris Cornell is like nope that's our [TS]

  sound I mean somewhere somebody made a [TS]

  stand for that bass line I guess is what [TS]

  I'm saying yeah I see SM and I don't see [TS]

  how you could make a stand about that [TS]

  particular part so all these little all [TS]

  these little bread crumbs crumbs that [TS]

  that that the world leaves behind that [TS]

  if you're if you you find them you walk [TS]

  through the forest and you find this I'm [TS]

  gonna pick it up and you look at and you [TS]

  go what's the story here how how does [TS]

  this acquit with my theory of how good [TS]

  things get made one of the reasons I was [TS]

  up late I've been watching a lot of [TS]

  videos from this guy Adam Neely who has [TS]

  a really I think a really good YouTube [TS]

  channel um he's a bass player a [TS]

  multi-instrumentalist but mainly a bass [TS]

  player and he's a teacher he teaches [TS]

  music and he did this thing I think this [TS]

  is the right one a familiar with the [TS]

  notion of Hockett no hoc ke T and it [TS]

  basically he lays out like with music [TS]

  and with showing you the notation it's a [TS]

  little bit it's kind of like it's where [TS]

  basically you break up the rhythm across [TS]

  multiple voices or instruments where [TS]

  there's like sort of a continuation and [TS]

  a coverage and you give this kind of [TS]

  strange like magical quality to having [TS]

  passing off the melody to different [TS]

  instruments I mean here a lot you might [TS]

  hear a lot in like I'm guessing like I [TS]

  want to say like Bebop weird like [TS]

  somebody will continue the line or [TS]

  something like that but this is also [TS]

  like by design you can be write this in [TS]

  such a way that this voice starts that [TS]

  this hands off to this voice maybe [TS]

  there's a harmony but it completes and [TS]

  it's but it's one of those things were [TS]

  like I have never [TS]

  given that much thought to something [TS]

  like this even existing but like once [TS]

  it's explained to you it's kind of a [TS]

  mind blower and you go back and you [TS]

  listen to stuff and you're like wow you [TS]

  would have to be so trusting of the [TS]

  people in this Corral to attempt [TS]

  something like this and I don't know if [TS]

  I'm describing it very well but but you [TS]

  it's maybe a little bit I want to say a [TS]

  little bit like a cannon but something [TS]

  where there might be some repetition but [TS]

  you're like handing off in music haka is [TS]

  the rhythmic linear technique using the [TS]

  alternation of notes pitches or chords [TS]

  as a single melody shared between two or [TS]

  occasionally more voices such that [TS]

  alternately one voice sounds while the [TS]

  other rests right and one example he [TS]

  gives is you know that Daft Punk song [TS]

  faster make it that oh the faster [TS]

  stronger [TS]

  yeah like were you like passing you're [TS]

  like but you can do more easily [TS]

  electronically I guess but like I don't [TS]

  know I I'm I'm still so interested in [TS]

  learning about this kind of stuff [TS]

  because then you go back and you listen [TS]

  to stuff again you're just like this is [TS]

  like triply amazing to me now that [TS]

  somebody pulled this off yeah yeah I [TS]

  change the change the subject little on [TS]

  you there no not at all not at all I [TS]

  think that that is that reality as [TS]

  mental realities right both well and and [TS]

  and you say you say collaboration a lot [TS]

  and I think it is it's important to hear [TS]

  the word collaboration over and over [TS]

  it's important for me to think about [TS]

  collaboration I am now I don't want to [TS]

  give too much away I don't want to [TS]

  spoiler alert oh no I do want a spoiler [TS]

  alert I don't want to spoiler [TS]

  okay thank you I don't want to alert hmm [TS]

  but I am embarking upon a new thing in [TS]

  multiple different venues where I am [TS]

  intentionally collaborating that's been [TS]

  the never you in the past hasn't it it [TS]

  it has and I forget it over and over and [TS]

  because I think that what I want is to [TS]

  be left alone and I think that that it's [TS]

  you know like hard to collaborate and it [TS]

  is but like that track that I sent to [TS]

  Amy that ended up on her record [TS]

  it wasn't exactly a pure collaboration [TS]

  in the sense that I wrote a thing and I [TS]

  sent it to her [TS]

  wasn't a bunch of back-and-forth I sent [TS]

  it to her she added her parts it was a [TS]

  completed thing and and so but it did [TS]

  feel like I had to surrender this thing [TS]

  I had written it I was proud of it I [TS]

  thought it was good I had a very strong [TS]

  idea about where it should go [TS]

  I handed it to her she went where she [TS]

  wanted it to go and it became an Amy man [TS]

  song because you don't give a song to a [TS]

  me man and then have it be anything [TS]

  other right if she's gonna use it it [TS]

  becomes hers and she did she did an [TS]

  amazing work right she she wrote the [TS]

  bridge which i think is a great bridge [TS]

  like she she made it hers and I had to I [TS]

  had to say goodbye thing that I made [TS]

  right have a new life somewhere else go [TS]

  to college in a different town but it [TS]

  was it and it wasn't easy because it's [TS]

  like but I wanted to be the one that did [TS]

  everything right that's that's what I do [TS]

  yeah but it turned out great and it [TS]

  lives in the world right now and I and [TS]

  it was a reminder don't be precious make [TS]

  your thing hand it off you know you eat [TS]

  everything is a collaboration in that [TS]

  when you hand it off to the world they [TS]

  add their two cents right like somebody [TS]

  else loving a thing and loving it in [TS]

  their own way like adds to what the [TS]

  thing is that's going to put it so I'm [TS]

  collaborating now with two different [TS]

  people [TS]

  more broadly where I'm like let's do [TS]

  this together let's do this project [TS]

  together and boy Merlin is it hard just [TS]

  to say that over and over because the [TS]

  person comes back and they're like great [TS]

  while I was thinking that I would put I [TS]

  would play you know I would call it [TS]

  Connecticut and put a whipped cream on [TS]

  it and I'm like I don't that's not what [TS]

  I had in mind [TS]

  I don't even know what you just said and [TS]

  they're like no no it's going to be [TS]

  great Connecticut that's what we're [TS]

  calling it now and but it has so far [TS]

  I've picked a couple of collaborators or [TS]

  they picked me who are exciting and [TS]

  we're doing something that I wouldn't do [TS]

  otherwise [TS]

  so boy I'm every day I'm I'm trying to [TS]

  wake up and say you can't do this by [TS]

  yourself nothing good is going to come [TS]

  of do you doing it by yourself you have [TS]

  to you have to live in the world an [TS]

  interesting analog that jump straight to [TS]

  mind as I read more stuff in like New [TS]

  York Times Washington Post I've [TS]

  subscribed to those and I read them a [TS]

  lot is I think about um there's a writer [TS]

  I like a lot of the New York Times [TS]

  Maggie Haberman I like her Twitter I [TS]

  like when she's interviewed on shows and [TS]

  I enjoy when she is on the byline and [TS]

  frequently she's not alone on the byline [TS]

  these days you know with this fast news [TS]

  cycle and all this crazy stuff coming [TS]

  out and the leaks and everything you [TS]

  know she might be one of often to [TS]

  occasionally three and sometimes many [TS]

  more people and for some reason that [TS]

  leaps to mind for me or maybe it's a [TS]

  little bit like the wu-tang clan I don't [TS]

  know but like with her like I'm just I'm [TS]

  because I know that because I like the [TS]

  stuff that she does I could not tell you [TS]

  which sentence she wrote in this [TS]

  particular article but but I know that I [TS]

  really I like her work even when I can't [TS]

  identify which part it was that she made [TS]

  and I'm not saying that works across the [TS]

  board for collaborations like you can [TS]

  tell like John wrote that bridge that [TS]

  was not a paul bridge that was a john [TS]

  bridge like you can tell those kind of [TS]

  things but I guess I'm just saying like [TS]

  maybe that's one model to think about [TS]

  because there's a little hidden part in [TS]

  that that I think is interesting Maggie [TS]

  Haberman is not gonna spend four years [TS]

  to write one article she's got to put [TS]

  stuff out every day sometimes more than [TS]

  once a day so that it seems to me that [TS]

  the idea of having to produce and I [TS]

  realize of you know a rock album is not [TS]

  the same thing as a news article but I [TS]

  am saying that like the pressure to [TS]

  release often combined with the need to [TS]

  have ad hoc short term relationships [TS]

  with other people who do what you do [TS]

  must make you pretty cool about you [TS]

  would have to get okay with how you [TS]

  collaborate with people you couldn't [TS]

  spend five years at that job saying no I [TS]

  want the only byline on this and like [TS]

  well no that's that's not how this works [TS]

  in this in this economy and in this [TS]

  environment like this is how we produce [TS]

  news stories but that again that though [TS]

  that pressure of like some somebody I [TS]

  don't know and actually I would love to [TS]

  be a fly on the wall for figuring out [TS]

  who [TS]

  sign to water who chooses what but you [TS]

  take my meaning a little bit but yes you [TS]

  seems like you would have to get less [TS]

  Precious about whether it's good enough [TS]

  and ready enough you have to get less [TS]

  Precious about like putting your own ego [TS]

  aside and I guess ultimately maybe you [TS]

  know it could be an editor who's going [TS]

  to make those kinds of decisions but did [TS]

  you see any an analogy there well yeah [TS]

  and I and honestly when you put it that [TS]

  way the way that they have to be [TS]

  thinking is that it's about the work [TS]

  it's about it'll eventually put out we [TS]

  know there's going to be a story that's [TS]

  mostly about this topic or topics needs [TS]

  to come out in the next few hours so how [TS]

  do we collapse on them yeah right and [TS]

  and it isn't it they're just not [TS]

  thinking about the they're not thinking [TS]

  about their solo right they're just like [TS]

  the my job is to put this out or not to [TS]

  be remembered and then consequently they [TS]

  get remember difficult to do so [TS]

  different I know I know oh the bastards [TS]

  but I mean else I just did further on to [TS]

  music though um I'm trying to think like [TS]

  I don't know that much about like the [TS]

  personalities of the various jazz [TS]

  musicians but I mean you think about [TS]

  somebody like Max Roach for example is [TS]

  one that comes to mind we're like you [TS]

  know I can't always identify every [TS]

  drummer on every pop album but I'm often [TS]

  often as not I am unsurprised to find [TS]

  out that was telling max rich playing on [TS]

  that because you guys have a certain [TS]

  style but in jazz like when you're in a [TS]

  small combo it's it seems like like just [TS]

  to even get noticed to get noticed to [TS]

  get invited up like all the kinds of [TS]

  things that you would hope for when [TS]

  you're starting out a huge piece of that [TS]

  is how well you play with others and [TS]

  like if you go up there your first day [TS]

  this your first day you show up and you [TS]

  start rapping about that bap bap bap bap [TS]

  bap bap when nobody else is even playing [TS]

  yet like you're gonna you're gonna kind [TS]

  of get clocked as a loser [TS]

  like Luigi ality and listening and that [TS]

  kind of as I say collaboration the the [TS]

  maybe the ironic turns out part is that [TS]

  would make you very desirable to other [TS]

  people like you've got chops when you [TS]

  get your eight bars but you're not [TS]

  stepping on everybody's stuff and you're [TS]

  you know I mean you know how to be [TS]

  classy onstage with other people be [TS]

  supportive and then like respond to what [TS]

  they're doing and where you don't like [TS]

  wave your arms around and say okay [TS]

  everybody stop this wasn't what I [TS]

  intended I have a I have a friend here [TS]

  in Seattle who is making a TV show and [TS]

  she has a she's the writer of the head [TS]

  writer and also the showrunner and she [TS]

  has a writing staff that she has [TS]

  compiled from the ranks right people [TS]

  that wrote for Gracey and Frank or [TS]

  people that wrote for my own private [TS]

  Idaho or people that I don't know [TS]

  writers all the great chefs that have [TS]

  that have their own that have you know [TS]

  that have credits yeah and she said I [TS]

  was talking to her the other day we went [TS]

  to a baseball game and she said you know [TS]

  normally what happens a person in my [TS]

  position they have this team of writers [TS]

  that have been put together to write [TS]

  their show and everybody rights and [TS]

  rights and rights and we all write [TS]

  script and then I would put my name on [TS]

  it and they would be being paid to do [TS]

  this work like Lena Dunham and it's a [TS]

  Joss Whedon who's her collaborator I [TS]

  [Music] [TS]

  don't know yeah like another writer on [TS]

  girls [TS]

  yeah well producer of girls oh yes it's [TS]

  like right yeah famous guy [TS]

  film film person okay move movie person [TS]

  maybe he made super bad or 40 year old [TS]

  virgin Apatow yeah [TS]

  Apatow if you look at the entire season [TS]

  all the seasons of those shows those two [TS]

  I think man maybe with one other person [TS]

  are credited with having written all the [TS]

  show I've heard that they wrote almost [TS]

  all of them yeah and but there is a [TS]

  writing staff right there are people [TS]

  that are brighter that are working on [TS]

  the show there and those writers are [TS]

  writing but they're not they're not they [TS]

  don't take the ultimate credit for the [TS]

  script and and my friend who is making [TS]

  this TV show said you know what I did I [TS]

  ended up just giving each one of my [TS]

  writers a script you know they're going [TS]

  to we're all going to write just like a [TS]

  normal TV show but I'm going to give [TS]

  each one of them the credit for it [TS]

  because I don't need that like I'm a [TS]

  successful person I don't need to also [TS]

  own all the scripts even though their [TS]

  first time as the showrunner will have a [TS]

  heavy influence on how it gets edited [TS]

  and implemented Oh for shizzle and [TS]

  she'll have the final edit the final [TS]

  writing uh shield she will do that work [TS]

  she just won't take the credit and she [TS]

  said you know if you get a script it's [TS]

  an extra thinking $50,000 to this person [TS]

  that's a little yeah why be greedy but [TS]

  she said one of the writers you know [TS]

  everybody on this on this show has [TS]

  multiple credits of TV shows except for [TS]

  this one young playwright that she hired [TS]

  who was you know some fresh out of [TS]

  college gal from you know some college [TS]

  uh-huh who's a talented young playwright [TS]

  and and she's on the writing staff and I [TS]

  and and by this description I imagine [TS]

  that she's pretty young right early [TS]

  early to mid-20s not having worked in [TS]

  television before not having been a part [TS]

  of a writing staff but just somebody [TS]

  that was writing plays and and my friend [TS]

  described her as like she knows exactly [TS]

  what to do in the writing room which is [TS]

  to not say anything until there is a [TS]

  time for her to say something and then [TS]

  when she says something is brilliant [TS]

  uh-huh she waits for a shot and I was [TS]

  like boom well done and so my friend [TS]

  said I'm giving her a script to which no [TS]

  one can believe right that's because [TS]

  this absence such a noob in this medium [TS]

  yeah it's just not done you know like [TS]

  this person's twenty five you don't give [TS]

  them a script but like she earned it by [TS]

  knowing her job right by not being the [TS]

  one that was standing on the table like [TS]

  no no no no right right but by being by [TS]

  being consistently good and also knowing [TS]

  how to be patient so I mean that show is [TS]

  in development and I have my fingers [TS]

  crossed about it but but that kind of [TS]

  glimpse into [TS]

  a world where it also requires that that [TS]

  my friend who is not you know above like [TS]

  wanting to be known and make money and [TS]

  and and be a famous person is able to [TS]

  say like the collaborative nature of [TS]

  this is important enough to it getting [TS]

  done that there should also be some [TS]

  acknowledgement than some reward that's [TS]

  also like spooned out to everybody [TS]

  because these people are working their [TS]

  butts off and even though they're lucky [TS]

  to be here [TS]

  yeah it doesn't mean that that they [TS]

  should that they should have to pay to [TS]

  play I can show is it just generally is [TS]

  it drama [TS]

  uh you know what I don't know why I'm [TS]

  being so coy about it um my friend is [TS]

  Maria Semple who wrote where'd you go [TS]

  Bernadette and two things are currently [TS]

  in development one of them is a film [TS]

  being made of where'd you go Bernadette [TS]

  which is being made and I think that [TS]

  Maria has sort of had she had her input [TS]

  into it and now has sort of stepped away [TS]

  from the making of the film she's not [TS]

  like a daily presence on the film but [TS]

  there's also a television show that is [TS]

  being developed so it's like a time it [TS]

  is I don't know listening to Maria talk [TS]

  about it it is like until the show is on [TS]

  the air you cannot be confident oh yeah [TS]

  sure alright shows you know though [TS]

  they'll spend a hundred million dollars [TS]

  making a show and then at the last [TS]

  minute just decide to pull it and put on [TS]

  ABC's Wide World of Sports Wide World of [TS]

  Sports [TS]

  quite a cash got for the movie Kate [TS]

  Blanchet Kristen Wiig Judy Greer Billy [TS]

  Crudup you got dr. manhattan's yes right [TS]

  big penis man big penis big blue penis [TS]

  John yep [TS]

  big blue penis man [TS]

  um yes it's a great cast and and then [TS]

  the TV show also is pretty extraordinary [TS]

  but I'm guessing that there's nothing oh [TS]

  well there there's the article right [TS]

  there so it's something I don't have to [TS]

  it's in The Hollywood Reporter Julia [TS]

  Roberts is playing Maria Semple oh my in [TS]

  the in the television show that they are [TS]

  developing and the show and it's about [TS]

  her second book or their her follow-up [TS]

  to where'd you go Bernadette called [TS]

  today will be different which is ah at [TS]

  your local bookstore on sale now so [TS]

  Julia Roberts it's very unusual I mean [TS]

  even for me to have a friend who is [TS]

  being played by Julia Roberts on a TV [TS]

  show get up to that but all for you [TS]

  don't get that more than maybe four or [TS]

  five times in your life right right like [TS]

  sitting at a baseball game talking about [TS]

  a TV show that is where Julia Roberts is [TS]

  is the you know the star but Maria is [TS]

  show running the show in addition to [TS]

  having uh written the book and in [TS]

  addition to being the kids main [TS]

  character of the TV show and god am I [TS]

  getting some lessons about collaboration [TS]

  um it's just really heavy to watch how [TS]

  much work has to go into making this [TS]

  thing and how much self-effacement has [TS]

  to happen how much like stepping back [TS]

  and saying in order to make this big [TS]

  thing work I have to let I have to let [TS]

  people do their jobs Oh God [TS]

  I can only imagine I can oh I can only [TS]

  imagine there must be so much stuff [TS]

  where you have to make a pretty fast [TS]

  decision about well am I going to get [TS]

  big deal out of this would be one [TS]

  another one would be if this does happen [TS]

  how likely is this thing to happen right [TS]

  and if it does happen like what are the [TS]

  likely consequences and you start doing [TS]

  a little bit of like thinking you know [TS]

  chest style a little bit ahead but I I [TS]

  just I can't even imagine and you got [TS]

  the whole time you got to stay cool and [TS]

  keep your powder dry yeah I got so much [TS]

  in with the writer Elizabeth Gilbert [TS]

  you've met having I I have met Elizabeth [TS]

  Gilbert she and I have spent some time [TS]

  together okay so now you know two people [TS]

  portrayed by Julia Roberts in a film [TS]

  kind of film oh holy shit yeah that's [TS]

  two we should probably look into this [TS]

  see if there's any others you know it [TS]

  could be done to you do you think this [TS]

  is a situation where in the rest of my [TS]

  life there will be two more people that [TS]

  I know Tyler for Trinity Roberts [TS]

  I think there will be at least one more [TS]

  clearly Wow do you think maybe I will [TS]

  ever be portrayed by Julia Roberts in a [TS]

  film mm-hmm probably like a [TS]

  fictionalized version of me I think it [TS]

  would probably be Tilda Swinton playing [TS]

  Julia Roberts playing you I think it [TS]

  might have some laughs it might be it [TS]

  might be a South Korean movie I think [TS]

  it's going to have a lot of layers to it [TS]

  and yeah and there's no question I think [TS]

  that still counts you think it might be [TS]

  like a Being John Malkovich situation [TS]

  where people are just like Malkovich [TS]

  Malkovich I never saw that whole movie [TS]

  my own urn on DVD and I still never seen [TS]

  the whole thing [TS]

  hast we new here show us a full frontal [TS]

  well she's been in a lot of movies look [TS]

  at that she has she's uh she's a good [TS]

  actress [TS]

  and you know Maria speaks highly ever [TS]

  you know um you know who knows so maybe [TS]

  we'll all go to a ballgame or or a movie [TS]

  um it's a whole maybe looking behind [TS]

  their van and pick you up but it's such [TS]

  a whole different set of skills it's [TS]

  it's one reason I am so reluctant to [TS]

  utterly poopoo the experience one gets [TS]

  from team sports and being in the [TS]

  military um because uh you know if [TS]

  you've made it through film school for [TS]

  example you've almost certainly had to [TS]

  collaborate with people but you know [TS]

  you're collaborating probably mostly [TS]

  with other students but the the skills [TS]

  that made you good at what you are as a [TS]

  musician a rock musician as a stand-up [TS]

  comic as there's all kinds of things [TS]

  where you can hone elements of what you [TS]

  do even publicly kind of mostly by [TS]

  yourself not always true comedians have [TS]

  people write jokes for them you know [TS]

  obviously if you're if you're the [TS]

  director you also gotta have a [TS]

  cinematographer etc etc [TS]

  like it's um it's like so many jobs it [TS]

  means the full weight of what's involved [TS]

  in what you're doing may not be fully [TS]

  upon you until you're like getting ready [TS]

  to go into production where like you may [TS]

  realize and I get I mean you get that [TS]

  because you've had successes in the past [TS]

  but it is it's kind of weird you think [TS]

  about something like Herb Alpert like [TS]

  herb Albert I think started primarily as [TS]

  a trumpet player and then he became like [TS]

  a trumpet player with a band and then [TS]

  became a trumpet player with a band he [TS]

  was it sometimes sing not very well and [TS]

  then fast forward just a little bit and [TS]

  he's the guy who started anm records [TS]

  right and there's that kind of classic [TS]

  celebrity refusenik idea of the person [TS]

  who's always taking every job to get the [TS]

  next higher up level job but like some [TS]

  people just want to be implementers some [TS]

  people I don't say just be a [TS]

  cinematographer because there's a lot to [TS]

  that but there's a lot of practitioners [TS]

  who like the piece of the pieces of the [TS]

  puzzle that they're responsible for they [TS]

  don't they don't want to be the [TS]

  showrunner necessarily you know I wonder [TS]

  I wonder I don't know there are some [TS]

  people who just seem like wunderkind [TS]

  where you're like we know they've done [TS]

  one thing and now they're getting all [TS]

  these offers and they keep you'll get [TS]

  somebody like let's go say Damon [TS]

  Lindelof but especially Noah Hawley the [TS]

  guy who did Fargo and Legion and like [TS]

  he's doing so many things and it just [TS]

  seems like he he he just never misses a [TS]

  pitch but there's a there's people [TS]

  skills at the heart of all of those [TS]

  kinds of jobs and like it seems like [TS]

  there's always this potential disaster [TS]

  if you try to move into an increasingly [TS]

  people centric job when you are [TS]

  primarily a gifted and mercurial [TS]

  practitioner I'm starting to get it a [TS]

  little bit that you know through years [TS]

  and years right we've talked about [TS]

  intelligence as being not a single thing [TS]

  right the first time somebody said oh [TS]

  that person has emotional intelligence I [TS]

  remember thinking that it was a kind of [TS]

  a revolutionary thought technology like [TS]

  oh right yeah that had no one had ever [TS]

  spoken that idea before and now we have [TS]

  the concept of emotional intelligence to [TS]

  work with [TS]

  yeah you know we had street smarts but [TS]

  street smarts you know didn't it it [TS]

  clearly wasn't being discussed as a kind [TS]

  of intelligence as much as it wasn't [TS]

  kind of smarts just the use of the word [TS]

  smarts took some of the power away but [TS]

  now we think of intelligence as being [TS]

  this you know this multifaceted thing [TS]

  and you can have the mathematical [TS]

  intelligence or you can have a lot of [TS]

  different kinds of intelligence well [TS]

  like if you you see if you observe [TS]

  people in your life whose skill with [TS]

  something seems not only impossibly easy [TS]

  they seem impossibly confident but like [TS]

  it's if it feels like magic to you that [TS]

  somebody is capable of that there's [TS]

  probably some chance that they have an X [TS]

  fill-in-the-blank intelligence that you [TS]

  lack and and and I think my maybe this [TS]

  is from my era or just maybe this is [TS]

  natural but I always think of them as [TS]

  being smarter somehow how is joss whedon [TS]

  capable of all this got to be smart [TS]

  somehow and so I don't know if we talked [TS]

  about this last week but I just met [TS]

  Tommy Gevinson yeah a Mishnah and what [TS]

  was what stood out about her was that [TS]

  she was very smart like clearly a very [TS]

  very smart person but over time I've met [TS]

  a lot of people who are very [TS]

  accomplished and it isn't their [TS]

  smartness that stands out right I mean [TS]

  John Hodgman is smart Maria Semple is [TS]

  smart they're very smart yeah but it's [TS]

  not like they are unnaturally smart or [TS]

  smart to a point where you can it where [TS]

  their accomplishment can be attributed [TS]

  to their smartness and Tommy is young [TS]

  not not she can't possibly have the [TS]

  experiences that an older person has had [TS]

  but and she's very smart clearly but [TS]

  there's something else and it's this it [TS]

  is this quality of being it's the self [TS]

  possession or whatever whatever that [TS]

  neil young young neil young feel [TS]

  is where they just are following their [TS]

  own star but without without a lot of [TS]

  Jim Morrison trappings you know it's [TS]

  just when something comes onto their [TS]

  desk they have a they have a skill of [TS]

  being able to say this isn't what I'm [TS]

  doing this just isn't what I'm doing [TS]

  this thing mm-hmm and I didn't have that [TS]

  everything came on my desk and I was [TS]

  like maybe I'll be a Shakespearean actor [TS]

  and there wasn't a thing in my head that [TS]

  was like no that's not what you're doing [TS]

  you're not doing a Shakespeare thing in [TS]

  life and so I spent however many hours [TS]

  however many daydream hours imagining [TS]

  shakes imagining that I would do [TS]

  Shakespeare and you know maybe burned a [TS]

  lot of time yeah could I lose you no no [TS]

  I'm done I'm thinking about it I don't [TS]

  know I mean as one of those things that [TS]

  is it's a little bit of an obsession for [TS]

  me I don't know I've said so much about [TS]

  this so many places but it still [TS]

  continues to dog me is the incredible [TS]

  gulf between how it feels like in your [TS]

  terms when you put your hands around it [TS]

  the incredible gulf between the idea of [TS]

  doing something and what happens when [TS]

  you actually have to do that thing and [TS]

  you know when we say have to that you're [TS]

  committed to that there's like there's a [TS]

  budget there's a timeline all that kind [TS]

  of stuff but just it's uh it can [TS]

  sometimes be so shocking yeah I hate to [TS]

  repeat myself but no I I do still I do [TS]

  still really obsess and like you I think [TS]

  I lie I want to be left alone but like [TS]

  it's it's beneficial to be pushed into [TS]

  situations with other people well that's [TS]

  encouraging my daughter to get over her [TS]

  shyness and order her own food or for me [TS]

  to be saying okay I'm going to reach out [TS]

  to this person try to do a podcast [TS]

  episode with them I mean it's not my [TS]

  natural impulse at all and given the [TS]

  varying intelligences of other people I [TS]

  look at somebody or you know you [TS]

  suddenly need some [TS]

  and you're like wow I can feel like I [TS]

  can tell a little bit why you're so good [TS]

  at your job like you really you really [TS]

  get this in a way you get this on a [TS]

  molecular level because you've done this [TS]

  a lot and because you understand that [TS]

  people are part of the process and I I [TS]

  admire that and I'm stunned by that well [TS]

  I've said it before and I'll say it [TS]

  again I mean the fact that you reached [TS]

  out to me however many years ago and [TS]

  explained to me what the internet was [TS]

  and then after explaining to me what the [TS]

  internet was he explained that there [TS]

  were other people on the other side of [TS]

  the Internet and after I asked a few [TS]

  questions about that that you patiently [TS]

  answered then you said and I said why [TS]

  would a band want to be on the Internet [TS]

  and you were very patient with me and [TS]

  explained some of the reasons why a band [TS]

  might want to be on the Internet and [TS]

  then you said I want to do a podcast and [TS]

  then you patiently explained what that [TS]

  was a lot of layers and and I was like [TS]

  mm hmm hmm hmm and now we've been doing [TS]

  this podcast for 40 years 40 years and [TS]

  it really has there have been times when [TS]

  this podcast was the thing that kept me [TS]

  in the world mm-hmm it was the one thing [TS]

  I was doing that that was collaborative [TS]

  and interactive and and outside of [TS]

  myself dependent dependent on someone [TS]

  else not just doing work but on that [TS]

  someone else being into it mm-hmm [TS]

  right like bringing their own they're [TS]

  not just their their participation but [TS]

  they're there I mean like the love of [TS]

  doing it enough to do it and I never [TS]

  would have thought you know what I mean [TS]

  I mean we knew a lot of people 10 years [TS]

  ago that we still know but we don't know [TS]

  very well anymore and we knew those [TS]

  people as well as we knew each other [TS]

  then but you and I know each other now [TS]

  still because we do this [TS]

  and I mean I wish it wasn't as [TS]

  depressing to say this out loud as [TS]

  depressing as it sounds and actually is [TS]

  but like a lot of this is this is an [TS]

  opportunity for me to have regular [TS]

  meetings with friends of mine I mean [TS]

  honestly this is this show in particular [TS]

  that was kind of you know little talk [TS]

  about the show on the show but it is [TS]

  kind of legit about how it started was [TS]

  that this you know what's on stove [TS]

  whatever's in the show is in the show it [TS]

  wasn't like we had to say well let's [TS]

  come up with a topic list and hope we [TS]

  can figure out something to say and yeah [TS]

  I um you know I don't know I know I [TS]

  don't do it enough and I don't do it [TS]

  well but I admire the people who do I [TS]

  love other people's intelligence maybe [TS]

  we should maybe we should start a band [TS]

  know my dad's got a barn my dad's got a [TS]

  killer set of tools you gonna play the [TS]

  chainsaw yeah when didn't know I'm gonna [TS]

  set I'm gonna set off my job is going to [TS]

  be the set up one stick of dynamite [TS]

  every 14 days and skulk around the [TS]

  corner see you bitches that's my role in [TS]

  the band out of here oh we laughed [TS]