The Accidental Tech Podcast

223: Throw the Fork Away

 

  out of curiosity he can choose my dances [TS]

  what did we conclude with regard to [TS]

  headgear for the live show did we ever [TS]

  reach a conclusion you have to wear your [TS]

  retainer Casey yeah I'm definitely [TS]

  wearing headphones I don't care how [TS]

  nerdy I look you guys are welcome to [TS]

  make that choice for yourselves should [TS]

  have you should have headphones [TS]

  available for us put them on the table [TS]

  in front of us we can choose to put them [TS]

  on or not it really for me it depends on [TS]

  whether it's weird for me enough to be [TS]

  able to hear myself or whether just the [TS]

  the in room speakers will be enough and [TS]

  hearing the audience and so I'll just [TS]

  I'm going to make up the call at the [TS]

  moment to see what it's like and try it [TS]

  without first and if it's weird up in a [TS]

  month okay so what I'm hearing is I will [TS]

  bring a pair of scissors and hundreds of [TS]

  dollars to refund Marko for the [TS]

  headphone the headphones that I break if [TS]

  John tries to put them on no I myself [TS]

  not gonna put them on you I know but it [TS]

  but if you put them on and Marko has him [TS]

  on what am I gonna be the lone cool kid [TS]

  nah you can totally you're your own [TS]

  person you I'm not the boss of you you [TS]

  do what you want with your own head Ian [TS]

  McDowell writes in this is he he is not [TS]

  an apple genius but apparently heard [TS]

  from an apple genius if I understand [TS]

  this correctly that the key caps on the [TS]

  new scissor key keyboards are not [TS]

  removable dirt commonly gets under the [TS]

  keys and they now have special tools in [TS]

  the stores to help fix them I would love [TS]

  to know what the special tools are so [TS]

  like tiny nano machines they send in [TS]

  through those little cracks in the keys [TS]

  and there they grab little pieces of [TS]

  dirt and come out like actually it's a [TS]

  it's a it's a magical School Bus that [TS]

  they drive ruined used to clean things [TS]

  up uh speaking of the keyboard and [TS]

  cleaning it there is actually and uh [TS]

  what did it did Steve Hackett send this [TS]

  to us somebody sent this to us there's [TS]

  actually a knowledgebase article so I'll [TS]

  just assume it was Steven that's [TS]

  entitled to clean the keyboard of your [TS]

  MacBook Retina 12-inch 2015 and later uh [TS]

  and it describes holding your MacBook at [TS]

  exactly 75 degree angle things that is [TS]

  very important you hold the day this [TS]

  does not work [TS]

  forget ninety forget it what are you [TS]

  even doing 75 obviously I'm joking but [TS]

  it really does show a 75 degree angle [TS]

  and with a little diagram of what that [TS]

  looks like I mean it's kind of I don't [TS]

  know if that's really 75 someone get [TS]

  your protractor but but anyway they're [TS]

  very insistent about the degree [TS]

  yeah and so then you use compressed air [TS]

  to spray the keyboard or just the [TS]

  effective keys in a left-to-right motion [TS]

  very important then rotate your MacBook [TS]

  to its right side and spray the keyboard [TS]

  again from left to right and they have a [TS]

  little diagram you rotate it to your [TS]

  left side this will not work point what [TS]

  warranty voided right exactly so anyway [TS]

  so yeah they have this whole process [TS]

  that apparently amounts to blow crap out [TS]

  from under the key caps and that is an [TS]

  actual knowledgebase article so in in [TS]

  the time since our last show uh I have [TS]

  my whole rant about the heat and the [TS]

  keys right well that was less yeah the [TS]

  expanding like when it gets warmer [TS]

  weather you thought maybe the keys are [TS]

  expanding and filling the openings more [TS]

  and getting stuck so I've actually so I [TS]

  I went on a little Twitter rant about [TS]

  this almost a week ago and I heard from [TS]

  a lot of people up who have who have [TS]

  computers with the new keyboards and it [TS]

  actually seems like this might not be as [TS]

  much of an issue on the MacBook ones [TS]

  keyboard the the first generation of [TS]

  this on the 12 inch but it seems like [TS]

  this is a major issue for a lot of [TS]

  people and you know and when I say a lot [TS]

  of people I'm saying like I've heard [TS]

  from a lot of people on Twitter that [TS]

  doesn't mean that like a large [TS]

  percentage of customers have this [TS]

  problem only Apple knows that but it [TS]

  certainly seems like this is a [TS]

  noteworthy problem that Keys get stuck [TS]

  or feel different or get stuck down or [TS]

  repeat or or somehow don't work properly [TS]

  on a pretty regular basis with with [TS]

  largest keyboards a lot of people have [TS]

  to get them replaced and also it seems [TS]

  to be related to heat that when they are [TS]

  warm when either either when the [TS]

  computer is working really hard so it's [TS]

  getting warm or if you're in a hot [TS]

  environment like I was when I was having [TS]

  this problem I was I was outside on a [TS]

  hot day and the keys tend to stick a lot [TS]

  more than and so I don't know enough [TS]

  about the way these are built to know [TS]

  why that is you know some of the Twitter [TS]

  people were speculating that maybe like [TS]

  the tolerances are so tight that maybe a [TS]

  little bit of thermal expansion is [TS]

  enough to make it not work properly I [TS]

  don't know but it does seem like that's [TS]

  kind of a problem if that's true [TS]

  that's you like a big problem so I don't [TS]

  really know what the answer here is I [TS]

  hope that Apple is [TS]

  doing so many replacements of these [TS]

  keyboards under warranty that it [TS]

  motivates them to change things if they [TS]

  can the only question is can they or are [TS]

  they going to have to wait until the [TS]

  next major revision of the keyboard in [TS]

  new in new laptops entirely and everyone [TS]

  who owns this generation might just be [TS]

  out of luck and just might have to get [TS]

  frequent keyboard replacements and I [TS]

  hope that's not the answer because [TS]

  that's not a good answer and as an owner [TS]

  of one of these I'm really not happy [TS]

  with this [TS]

  the idea that I'm going to have to bring [TS]

  it to Apple at least once and go without [TS]

  it for like a week at least once to get [TS]

  this keyboard fixed I want to work [TS]

  reliably that is not very appealing to [TS]

  me because I buy a laptop because I need [TS]

  a laptop and going without it for a week [TS]

  is usually not very convenient not to [TS]

  mention having to get an appointment [TS]

  with Apple or call them wait on the [TS]

  phone and do mail order or whatever else [TS]

  like none of these are good options [TS]

  none of these are great solutions to [TS]

  what should be a pretty basic thing [TS]

  which as I expect the keyboard of my [TS]

  laptops to work reliably and this is all [TS]

  like feeling aside like we've talked at [TS]

  length about how much we like or dislike [TS]

  mostly does like the new you know [TS]

  shallow keyboards and I've heard from [TS]

  people who defend them who like the feel [TS]

  and that's fine that it's it's a [TS]

  personal preference the feel of the [TS]

  keyboard doesn't bother me as much as it [TS]

  used to and now they've used it for a [TS]

  while but what does bother me is [TS]

  reliability being verb being bad and I [TS]

  think regardless of what you think of [TS]

  the feel of the keyboard I think we can [TS]

  probably all agree that in that an [TS]

  unreliable keyboard in a laptop [TS]

  especially such a young laptop is really [TS]

  worrying if it was just me then that's [TS]

  fine and you can you can disregard it I [TS]

  would disregard it as well I got a bad [TS]

  keyboard and you know just get it fixed [TS]

  but from what I keep hearing from people [TS]

  over and over and over again when I [TS]

  bring this up a lot of people have had [TS]

  to get multiple replacements and the [TS]

  replacements have the same problem and [TS]

  so it just seems like it's a design flaw [TS]

  and that's a pretty big design flaw I I [TS]

  hope that this is smaller than it seems [TS]

  I hope that I can just get it replaced [TS]

  once and then [TS]

  have a reliable laptop keyboard for the [TS]

  next you know one to four years that I [TS]

  use this laptop whatever it ends up [TS]

  being I hope that's it but so far what I [TS]

  have heard is discouraging in that area [TS]

  it sound that this might just be a [TS]

  problem with this entire generation of [TS]

  keyboards in the 2016 MacBook Pro this [TS]

  is solvable if they you know if Apple [TS]

  figures out what the problem is like [TS]

  they you know they diagnose this and [TS]

  they figure it out and say aha if we [TS]

  change design in this way change a [TS]

  different material make little bits of [TS]

  the key differently shaped or larger or [TS]

  smaller or whatever it takes make the [TS]

  key caps themselves slightly smaller [TS]

  this all seems like something that could [TS]

  be solved by it kind of like they did [TS]

  with the screen image retention where [TS]

  it's like oh we sold you a bunch of you [TS]

  know retina MacBook Pros and if you got [TS]

  the lg screen or the Samsung screen I [TS]

  can't remember which one was the bad one [TS]

  you might have energy tension problems [TS]

  they don't fix it by giving you another [TS]

  one of the same screen that image [TS]

  mention problems they give you a [TS]

  different better screen that still [TS]

  fulfills the same purpose has the same [TS]

  resolution in the same characteristics [TS]

  but doesn't have burnin but it's like a [TS]

  different part either a new part from [TS]

  the same maker or apart from a different [TS]

  manufacturer so if they figure this out [TS]

  with a keyboard it will make a new [TS]

  keyboard that fits these things and when [TS]

  you come in for a repair they'll replace [TS]

  it with the new version it's just a [TS]

  question of how long it takes them to [TS]

  figure out what the heck the problem is [TS]

  assuming it even is a problem according [TS]

  to their numbers well first first of all [TS]

  to save you a bunch of email image [TS]

  retention 15-inch 2012 retina MacBook [TS]

  Pro screens they didn't guarantee that [TS]

  you got a better one like the LG was the [TS]

  problem the Samsung was the good one [TS]

  when you got it replaced you could get [TS]

  either one it was just kind of dumb luck [TS]

  which one you got and you just hope you [TS]

  got the Samsung panel well I but they [TS]

  could they could do that like nothing if [TS]

  they no one's good in one's bad assume [TS]

  well that's even true like that's our [TS]

  that's our conventional wisdom of like [TS]

  oh if you got this one you're okay and [TS]

  if you got this one you're not but [TS]

  assuming they know one is better they [TS]

  have the option what I'm saying is they [TS]

  have the option of gaming they don't [TS]

  have to redesign the thing you don't [TS]

  have to wait for the next model if Apple [TS]

  knows replace this part with this other [TS]

  part that is different and it will fix [TS]

  the problem they have the ability to do [TS]

  that with you're not you're not out of [TS]

  luck that's what I'm saying with this [TS]

  thing you don't have to wait until you [TS]

  buy the Mexican periodic returns one and [TS]

  get a different one you just need Apple [TS]

  to a make an improve thing and B [TS]

  actually give it to you in their place [TS]

  when it comes to you know moving along [TS]

  with Apple moving along with the newest [TS]

  technologies and and getting the newest [TS]

  stuff and keeping up with Apple you have [TS]

  to swallow some things you have to okay [TS]

  yeah I guess I'll get rid of my [TS]

  headphone jack you know I guess I can [TS]

  get rid of all my ports and my SD card [TS]

  reader and everything else and a lot of [TS]

  these things are easier or harder to [TS]

  swallow having a keyboard not be [TS]

  reliable is a massive problem like I [TS]

  don't care what you think of this [TS]

  keyboard having it not be reliable for [TS]

  almost everyone who buys one that is [TS]

  unacceptable that is not a trade-off [TS]

  that is not moving towards the future [TS]

  that is not like there's no excuse for [TS]

  that that is a design flaw and that [TS]

  needs to be fixed yeah I I really want [TS]

  to tell you that you are especially [TS]

  early on there being a big baby about [TS]

  the keyboard and how you didn't like it [TS]

  blah blah blah but you know you're [TS]

  allowed your opinion that's fine however [TS]

  I could not agree with you more that if [TS]

  V if these reliability problems are as [TS]

  widespread as they anecdotally seem to [TS]

  be then this is definitely a step [TS]

  backwards and needs to be addressed [TS]

  alright moving on if you do have a [TS]

  problem with your keycaps there are some [TS]

  people that apparently do remove them [TS]

  without breaking them according to a [TS]

  somewhat shady uh YouTube master risk [TS]

  asterisk at the edge without breaking [TS]

  the biggest well will continue to the [TS]

  next volume but this is a video of [TS]

  someone showing you how he can price he [TS]

  cap off with a guitar pick and kind of [TS]

  how they work under the cover so you can [TS]

  kind of visualize what it is that you're [TS]

  doing when you pry this thing up so some [TS]

  people are doing it yeah it's a thing [TS]

  but I would certainly wouldn't recommend [TS]

  it that was sending by kuba be [TS]

  additionally Michael M writes in [TS]

  regarding the fragility fragility of the [TS]

  new keyboard types and how they differ [TS]

  from the days of rolled here are some [TS]

  photos of the damage key caps so far [TS]

  that I've replaced and we'll put a link [TS]

  in the show notes there are four [TS]

  pictures here of what appears to be four [TS]

  different or three different key caps [TS]

  and a scissor switch that have been an [TS]

  issue note the clips at the top each top [TS]

  corner should have two fingers to clip [TS]

  around a pin on the butterfly and hooks [TS]

  at the bottom to remove the [TS]

  keys must be pried up at the top and [TS]

  then removed by moving the capped or at [TS]

  the top of the keyboard [TS]

  anything else break the fragile clips as [TS]

  well anything as well any misalignment [TS]

  and reassembly I only broke the pins off [TS]

  two butterflies why damage to at least [TS]

  70 caps I first generation MacBook Wan [TS]

  I've had it since shortly after release [TS]

  my F and key worked properly but didn't [TS]

  return to its full height correctly from [TS]

  new I ignored the issue turns out that [TS]

  key cap had been broken for years the [TS]

  bigger and more concerning issue which [TS]

  is why I've not yet made a second or [TS]

  third round of key cap and butterfly [TS]

  replacement part purchases is that a [TS]

  couple of keys I'm having difficulty [TS]

  with do not have any apparent physical [TS]

  damage to the key cap or the butterfly [TS]

  and they do not have any bit stuck under [TS]

  them that that can be seen upon very [TS]

  close inspection so I still dearly [TS]

  regret taking these key caps off this [TS]

  isn't a keyboard to be worked on by an [TS]

  expert its keyboard to be worked on by a [TS]

  trained expert with this with a spare [TS]

  parts stash that's the lesson of all [TS]

  portable devices like everything that [TS]

  you know Apple increasingly the things [TS]

  that are assembled with glue or the [TS]

  one-way assembly where it goes together [TS]

  but it does not come apart and go back [TS]

  together the same way it was maybe you [TS]

  can take it apart and maybe you can put [TS]

  it back together but it will never be [TS]

  the same and so the idea of like oh I'm [TS]

  a do-it-yourselfer I can pry these he [TS]

  caps off I can see how they work you [TS]

  look at these pictures and look at the [TS]

  size the sort of the feature size in the [TS]

  and you know silicon chip parlons how [TS]

  small the little Clippy things are on [TS]

  the bottom of this and the tiny little [TS]

  pins on the on the butterfly switch that [TS]

  they grip very very small very delicate [TS]

  right and so if you are thinking about [TS]

  prying these things off the possibility [TS]

  that you're going to break off or bend [TS]

  or otherwise screw up one of those clips [TS]

  or one of those pins seems very high [TS]

  which is probably why Apple doesn't like [TS]

  repair these keyboards they give you a [TS]

  whole new one was not a last show [TS]

  someone said it's not designed if [TS]

  they're going to fix one key view they [TS]

  inter placed all keyboard as far as [TS]

  that's true yeah it this doesn't seem [TS]

  like a repairable thing now an apples [TS]

  you know knowledgebase article they tell [TS]

  you how to blow compressed air on it to [TS]

  maybe get the grit out you know because [TS]

  it's not going to shake out on its own [TS]

  because all the gaps are so small and [TS]

  that might solve your little grit type [TS]

  problem but the other interesting thing [TS]

  about Michael story here is that he had [TS]

  a key that had one of the little Clippy [TS]

  things underneath it [TS]

  broken you know from the I'm not sure [TS]

  how he knowses because maybe he broke [TS]

  him when he took it off or whatever but [TS]

  that it hadn't been working and and he [TS]

  had just been ignoring it and it had [TS]

  been broken for a really long time [TS]

  if these little Clippy things are broken [TS]

  under one of your key gaps you can't [TS]

  know that it's like if x-ray vision like [TS]

  maybe that could explain why it's not [TS]

  working because the little Clippy things [TS]

  help the key rise and fall and sequence [TS]

  with the butterfly switch and stay you [TS]

  know stable and everything and if it's [TS]

  not connected to one of the little [TS]

  cookie things it's kind of like you know [TS]

  it independent suspension when you want [TS]

  are you know really a live real acts [TS]

  rear-axle and strong anti-roll bars the [TS]

  core analogy okay work I think this one [TS]

  actually works but it only works for [TS]

  people to know what those things are so [TS]

  I can imagine if you have a bad clip and [TS]

  one corner of your key is not being [TS]

  pushed upwards and pulled downward with [TS]

  the whole rest of your key no matter [TS]

  where you hit it because it is basically [TS]

  like you know an anti-roll bar under the [TS]

  cover even when when one corner of the [TS]

  key goes up or down you want the whole [TS]

  rest of the key to go with it that can [TS]

  make the key tilt in a way that it [TS]

  doesn't expect think it's stuck and do [TS]

  also saw the things and got you just [TS]

  looking at pictures of these keyboards [TS]

  make me start freaking out a little bit [TS]

  about how how delicate these little bits [TS]

  are and how easy it is for something to [TS]

  go wrong now if you open up a scissor [TS]

  key keyboard like the one I use every [TS]

  day it's also extremely delicate and [TS]

  tiny inside there I don't know the [TS]

  features of the key caps and mechanisms [TS]

  are actually all that different could [TS]

  just be a matter of you know butterfly [TS]

  versus scissor and and travel distance [TS]

  and maybe the switching mechanism [TS]

  underneath it but I do not do not like [TS]

  keyboards I don't like thinking about [TS]

  these keyboards it almost makes me long [TS]

  for a non-moving [TS]

  iPhone 7 home button style key barbar [TS]

  nothing actually no don't say that [TS]

  they'll do it no like I don't like [TS]

  thinking about keyboards either that's [TS]

  why this ought this annoys me so much [TS]

  because I've had every other laptop I've [TS]

  ever had from Apple I have never had to [TS]

  think about the keyboard it just worked [TS]

  and it was fine that's why this bothers [TS]

  me so much like this I feel like we're [TS]

  moving backwards in technology if the [TS]

  basics become unreliable [TS]

  Hector Ramos wrote in to tell us that he [TS]

  worked at a big companies tech [TS]

  conference at the McKenry Convention [TS]

  Center last [TS]

  on switch I don't even know but I'm [TS]

  assuming that's the one that we're going [TS]

  to be in for WotC having been to WB DC [TS]

  says Hector I think it's fair to say [TS]

  that the box lunches in the San Jose [TS]

  McHenry were worse sad trombone so don't [TS]

  get your hopes up the box lunches were [TS]

  all cold sandwiches with either soggy [TS]

  bread or hard and impossible to eat [TS]

  bread along with mystery dessert they [TS]

  also had salad only options that were [TS]

  passable however the real news here [TS]

  which is terrible there was no Odwalla [TS]

  sorry Casey I'm so sorry man are you [TS]

  gonna be okay well I'm hopeful that it's [TS]

  just that this particular event may not [TS]

  have sprung for the Odwalla option but [TS]

  I'm nervous and also a real-time [TS]

  follow-up from friend of the show Jason [TS]

  Snell it's Mick enery [TS]

  not machemer II so that's MCE and ery [TS]

  before i get all the san jose residents [TS]

  writing me who i'm hector he wrote it [TS]

  with Em's yep so any in any case yeah so [TS]

  no Odwalla for this particular tech [TS]

  conference and reading between the lines [TS]

  it was not the sort of tech conference [TS]

  where they needed to worry about money [TS]

  this was a spared no expense kind of [TS]

  experience so I'm nervous but hopefully [TS]

  hopefully Apple will will spring for the [TS]

  Odwalla just for me there I know that [TS]

  there's discussion somewhere in in in [TS]

  Cupertino you know Casey made it this [TS]

  year he won the lottery this year and we [TS]

  don't want to hear him whining and [TS]

  moaning for a year if there's no odd [TS]

  Wallace we might as well just pony it up [TS]

  my favorite thing about this is that we [TS]

  have become the podcast of conference [TS]

  box lunches so true so anyway so we'll [TS]

  see what happens but that is a that is [TS]

  sad times tentatively we are sponsored [TS]

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  just see what you can build you don't [TS]

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  purchase make your next move with [TS]

  Squarespace news broke earlier today as [TS]

  we record this Denise young smith who [TS]

  used to be the vice president of [TS]

  worldwide HR has now been named the vice [TS]

  president of inclusion and diversity [TS]

  which is cool I think that's pretty [TS]

  awesome we don't really know much about [TS]

  it yet so you know obviously we don't [TS]

  want to celebrate it too much quite yet [TS]

  but this is absolutely a step in the [TS]

  right direction and she's not a white [TS]

  dude because that seems to be the [TS]

  classical thing to do which is to put a [TS]

  white dude in charge of diversity and [TS]

  inclusion and so at least Apple wasn't [TS]

  so tone deaf that that made that faux [TS]

  pas so this in theory seems like a great [TS]

  thing this is a newly created position [TS]

  like this position didn't exist as a new [TS]

  vice president level position that [TS]

  they've created in I don't know how this [TS]

  is going to work out because so much [TS]

  corporate stuff is is opaque like I [TS]

  always when I see stuff like this in [TS]

  companies other than Apple ID [TS]

  is I think apples and exception in many [TS]

  many ways but in when a big company [TS]

  makes a new role for like a [TS]

  vice-president or someone who's going to [TS]

  address some problem they think they [TS]

  have I always fear that that person is [TS]

  being set up for failure because how is [TS]

  it that they're going to pursue their [TS]

  agenda in a company that didn't even [TS]

  have this position previously and and to [TS]

  pursue the agenda requires you know [TS]

  massive company shifting policy changes [TS]

  so that's that's my usual fear with [TS]

  these type of things that you know what [TS]

  can they even do is it just symbolic [TS]

  will the rest of the company listen to [TS]

  them and you know this will they be [TS]

  empowered to make change the thing that [TS]

  encourages me about this for Apple [TS]

  specifically is that it seems like Apple [TS]

  has done this to pretty good effect in [TS]

  the past one example is that was at Lisa [TS]

  Jackson who was on the talk show the [TS]

  does like environment or whatever I'm [TS]

  assuming that great position was newly [TS]

  created at some point in the past to [TS]

  like you know Apple Apple 20 years ago [TS]

  probably didn't have a you know [TS]

  environment bizarre or whatever her [TS]

  title is and she's got results like she [TS]

  does things that change the way Apple [TS]

  makes its products right and so she [TS]

  wasn't just putting this ability to say [TS]

  oh ya know we have someone worrying [TS]

  about environment that's a whole [TS]

  vice-president role and they just [TS]

  continue to do what they did and you [TS]

  know put out press releases or like you [TS]

  know it becomes like a PR type position [TS]

  from the interview you should definitely [TS]

  listen to like Apple is changing what it [TS]

  does across its entire business because [TS]

  of initiatives spearheaded by this [TS]

  person and what an any other company [TS]

  would be like a symbolic position so [TS]

  let's hope that this newly created [TS]

  position is you know just successful [TS]

  that's a good sign and you know apples [TS]

  been reasonably good about publicly [TS]

  sharing their diversity report I think [TS]

  at the end of the year I forget exactly [TS]

  what it is but at some point during the [TS]

  year they share it and so in theory we [TS]

  can judge them on you know what their [TS]

  results are after this move over the [TS]

  coming years obviously they massaged [TS]

  that report to be as complimentary as [TS]

  they possibly can while still being [TS]

  truthful hopefully anyway but certainly [TS]

  this is a good sign and I'm hopeful and [TS]

  and I think we should celebrate it [TS]

  alright John tell us about thunderbolt [TS]

  three and what's going on with Intel [TS]

  every time we talk about Apple not using [TS]

  Intel chips [TS]

  someone will brightest many someone's [TS]

  rise and say oh but that's not going to [TS]

  happen because if you don't use in El [TS]

  jefe's you can't have thunderbolt and [TS]

  Apple needs to have Thunderbolt because [TS]

  reasons therefore don't worry about it [TS]

  and I think the last time we discussed [TS]

  this what I tried to emphasize was I [TS]

  think when we talk about like risin [TS]

  AMD's risin and you know making [TS]

  reasonably competitive chips in certain [TS]

  market segments again and they're sort [TS]

  of they're their comeback bid that if [TS]

  Apple decided to go to AMD for whatever [TS]

  reason you know [TS]

  AMD Apple Intel are all companies things [TS]

  can be worked out money can change hands [TS]

  deals can be made I feel like it's a [TS]

  type of type of thing that all three [TS]

  parties would be able to work out that [TS]

  none of them would be so adamant that it [TS]

  would say there is literally no amount [TS]

  of money that you can give us Apple that [TS]

  would allow that would let us you know [TS]

  they would make us license Thunderbolt 3 [TS]

  to AMD like there's no kind of grudge [TS]

  like that going on there so I'm like set [TS]

  that aside yes it's an issue it have to [TS]

  be worked up by the people involved but [TS]

  if Apple thought it was to their [TS]

  advantage to start going to AMD for [TS]

  certain chips or certain things like it [TS]

  has the advantage that it wouldn't be an [TS]

  architectural change and having two [TS]

  vendors is the thing that Apple loves to [TS]

  do for every part in all of its things [TS]

  and at a certain point it's kind of [TS]

  against apples instincts and general [TS]

  policy to have a single vendor for like [TS]

  an extremely important component you [TS]

  know a single non apple vendor I suppose [TS]

  like they always want to have multiple [TS]

  people multiple people fabbing their [TS]

  chips up buying their chips from [TS]

  multiple vendors if they can help it [TS]

  ping them against each other like you [TS]

  know just typical business so today's [TS]

  announcement from I think it's today [TS]

  from Intel adds an interesting twist to [TS]

  this first is that Intel is adding [TS]

  Thunderbolt to their CPUs so you don't [TS]

  have to buy a separate chipset which [TS]

  apparently has been a barrier to you [TS]

  know PC manufacturers you know aren't [TS]

  willing to spend the money to you know [TS]

  license or buy the you know Alpine Ridge [TS]

  or whatever the latest chipset is for [TS]

  Thunderbolt support like that will just [TS]

  take the CPUs they have support for like [TS]

  USB blah blah blah [TS]

  pci-express like on the chips I don't [TS]

  care about thunderbolt I'll buy another [TS]

  chip it's it's it's pointless right so [TS]

  now they're putting it on the CPUs with [TS]

  so many other things and that will make [TS]

  it cheaper for people to use and you [TS]

  basically can't not get it if you buy a [TS]

  part that has it built-in I mean maybe [TS]

  they'll still sell parts that don't have [TS]

  a built-in and I assume Lee's better for [TS]

  packaging probably also better for power [TS]

  and it's a move that will make Apple [TS]

  computers better because Apple likes to [TS]

  put Thunderbolt 3 on you know it's high [TS]

  in computers and if Apple can get that [TS]

  built into the CPU they love it because [TS]

  they'd love to make everything small and [TS]

  lower power and if it's cheaper on top [TS]

  of that all the better right and the [TS]

  second part of this story is Intel is [TS]

  going to license Thunderbolt 3 for free [TS]

  to anybody who wants it then that that [TS]

  would a club obviously include AMD so [TS]

  that barrier to Apple using AMD CPUs [TS]

  assuming it ever was a barrier because [TS]

  I'm not entirely convinced that Apple is [TS]

  so wedded to Thunderbolt 3 that they [TS]

  wouldn't consider a CPU consider [TS]

  building a Mac without it because they [TS]

  do that barrier is gone Thunderbolt 3 [TS]

  and from Intel's perspective it's not [TS]

  like they're doing this to let Apple [TS]

  take AMD CPUs they're doing this because [TS]

  they want thunderbolt to spread more [TS]

  widely and a barrier to adoption as you [TS]

  got to buy this extra chipset for own [TS]

  and you can only get it from us and you [TS]

  can't make your own thing so it went to [TS]

  like no no we want to see Thunderbolt 3 [TS]

  everywhere it's really important for us [TS]

  to the standard to spread guess what [TS]

  it's free for everybody and it's cheaper [TS]

  when you buy until CPUs and I'm hoping [TS]

  that all the other manufacturers of pcs [TS]

  and parts and so on and so forth will [TS]

  take the ball and run with it [TS]

  I'm hoping the reason they were staying [TS]

  away from Thunderbolt was that it was [TS]

  too expensive I'm assuming Intel and you [TS]

  know Intel an apple or you know the [TS]

  people who created this standard have [TS]

  still had the most influence of it so [TS]

  maybe people were staying away because [TS]

  they feel like it's not like an industry [TS]

  standard it's more like an Intel or [TS]

  until Apple standard but either way I'm [TS]

  happy to see moves that bull that have a [TS]

  chance of keeping Thunderbolt from [TS]

  firewires fate firewire just never got [TS]

  the wide adoption that that it would [TS]

  have helped it to stick around longer [TS]

  and be a viable technology only used by [TS]

  Apple and video and if [TS]

  other things that USB meanwhile went [TS]

  literally everywhere so this seems like [TS]

  yet more of the USB if ocation of [TS]

  thunderbolt you know they already stole [TS]

  their connector and and their port [TS]

  confusing the world with the port that [TS]

  is 17 different things at one but i [TS]

  think that's really cool tech wise and [TS]

  now it's free for everybody so go forth [TS]

  and thunderbolt do you think that [TS]

  thunderbolt has already been fire wired [TS]

  because i see a lot of the same signs of [TS]

  it like you know thunderbolt and you [TS]

  know the earlier versions of it I think [TS]

  had had a more severe problem of this [TS]

  where it just very few peripherals were [TS]

  ever really made for Thunderbolt and [TS]

  what was made for Thunderbolt was always [TS]

  much more expensive than the USB 2 or 3 [TS]

  version of the same thing and for things [TS]

  like hard drive enclosures or SSD [TS]

  enclosures like there's almost no reason [TS]

  for anybody to do a thunderbolt when USB [TS]

  3 is an option [TS]

  unless you have really really high-end [TS]

  parts and you need maximum bandwidth and [TS]

  you don't care about the price for most [TS]

  people one of those things is not true [TS]

  so like I don't think Thunderbolt really [TS]

  has taken off very far I would say [TS]

  Thunderbolt is exactly where firewire [TS]

  was both 400 and 800 of like it is this [TS]

  this you know standard in quotes but in [TS]

  practice it is only used by some Apple [TS]

  stuff and some high-end like peripherals [TS]

  and storage enclosures but almost [TS]

  everything that most people use uses USB [TS]

  2 or 3 well Apple did a really smart or [TS]

  Apple Intel did a really smart thing [TS]

  here because when they when they change [TS]

  the connector because you're right that [TS]

  there are many people who don't need [TS]

  thinner bolt they just need USB it's the [TS]

  same little hole in the side of your [TS]

  computer right yeah and so if [TS]

  Thunderbolt gets confined to be oh it's [TS]

  just this weird thing that Apple does [TS]

  like Intel may not be happy that because [TS]

  maybe Intel wants it to be used more [TS]

  broadly for whatever strategic reasons [TS]

  but it's not like Apple has to change [TS]

  anything about its strategy as long as [TS]

  thinner ball continues to be made or [TS]

  like like basically the little plugs on [TS]

  the side of you already have a situation [TS]

  where you can get don't some it doesn't [TS]

  the low end like MacBook not have a [TS]

  Thunderbolt 3 port but instead just has [TS]

  the USB C and [TS]

  our thing am I wrong about that that's [TS]

  correct the 12-inch MacBook does not [TS]

  have you it does not have Thunderbolt it [TS]

  only has USB three over that port but [TS]

  it's the same old little connector and [TS]

  similarly the Thunderbolt ports can just [TS]

  run USB off of them the main the paint [TS]

  the main place sadly the main place or [TS]

  maybe not sadly depends on how you look [TS]

  at the main functionality the [TS]

  Thunderbolt 3 Bank brings to Apple's [TS]

  products is they can put a small set of [TS]

  very very small uniform ports on the [TS]

  side of their portable computers and [TS]

  people can connect stuff to them they [TS]

  give them all the other ports all the [TS]

  other things you can imagine all those [TS]

  different breakout boxes that's the [TS]

  magic of Thunderbolt right do you need [TS]

  sunder bowl 3 for that or whatever and I [TS]

  guess I suppose you know high end [TS]

  monitor support depending on how they [TS]

  want to implement that what they want to [TS]

  do with like multiple DisplayPort [TS]

  streams or telling things of our [TS]

  Thunderbolt and external GPUs and all [TS]

  the other fancy stuff you can get but if [TS]

  you don't take advantage of that fancy [TS]

  stuff it still just looks like you're [TS]

  plugging the little USB type-c connector [TS]

  into the side of your computer if you do [TS]

  take advantage of it you buy the fancy [TS]

  Apple computer and the same little port [TS]

  you can plug in all that other stuff but [TS]

  also you can plug in these other things [TS]

  to get these cool breakout boxes I think [TS]

  Apple would be perfectly fine with that [TS]

  they're not faced with the firewire like [TS]

  situation where that is that all those [TS]

  peripherals you bought are useless as [TS]

  long as Thunderbolt continues to be an [TS]

  ongoing concern in some fashion Apple [TS]

  can continue to ship all that's you know [TS]

  peripherals all of its Mac stuff all of [TS]

  its dongles and adapters with that one [TS]

  little hole on them so I think they're [TS]

  better off but the reason I brought a [TS]

  fire or exactly the reasons you said [TS]

  that it seems like Thunderbolt is being [TS]

  confined because USB 3 is so fast and so [TS]

  good and so cheap and so ubiquitous but [TS]

  in some respects the other angle on this [TS]

  USB type-c is kind of I'm gonna say it's [TS]

  the same as firewire but I get a little [TS]

  bit of the width of that firewire on it [TS]

  in the general reluctance of the rest of [TS]

  the industry to follow Apple along with [TS]

  this even like Microsoft not putting USB [TS]

  C on all this new surface stuff and then [TS]

  making excuses about like well when we [TS]

  think the world is ready for USB C we'll [TS]

  change it but in the meantime you can [TS]

  get a dongle to let you connect USB C [TS]

  stuff which is a pretty pretty good [TS]

  snark there like it seems to me if you [TS]

  when I look around I see laptops the [TS]

  only ones I ever see with USB see [TS]

  it's our Apple 1 so maybe they're just [TS]

  ahead of everyone else and people will [TS]

  convert over but that stupid USB type a [TS]

  connector may be very difficult to [TS]

  dislodge and it could be that like [TS]

  firewire the only hardware you ever see [TS]

  with these weird USB these things are [TS]

  probably cell phones because size is [TS]

  going to make those people turnover and [TS]

  mini USB sucks and then max but every [TS]

  other portable you know PC or tablet or [TS]

  surface thing or whatever love just a [TS]

  bunch of USB type a connectors on the [TS]

  side of it I don't know I'll tell you [TS]

  one thing I like now that I'm in the [TS]

  USBC ecosystem with my new laptop and [TS]

  I've been looking at USB see peripherals [TS]

  and looking for adapters and dongles and [TS]

  various like peripherals that use it [TS]

  there are not many like I thought that [TS]

  with the 12-inch MacBook being now 2 [TS]

  years old I figured you know there was [TS]

  there's probably got to be tons of them [TS]

  now and there are a small number of [TS]

  things that can plug into that port [TS]

  natively but it seems like almost all of [TS]

  them are like cheap crap from no-name [TS]

  brands on Amazon for 40 bucks that is [TS]

  all unreliable and badly built and all [TS]

  the probably uses the same chipset [TS]

  inside and and and it's it seemed like [TS]

  it's a very still a very immature market [TS]

  and I hope that I hope it matures soon [TS]

  now that all the MacBook Pros use only [TS]

  these ports that should be enough of [TS]

  motivation for peripheral makers but [TS]

  we'll see it's it's not where I thought [TS]

  it would be by now yeah I don't know [TS]

  what the resistance is here SBC Kazan [TS]

  it's not it's just us beasts though I [TS]

  mean there it's a different spec and [TS]

  there the cables are different and maybe [TS]

  they're more expensive and the [TS]

  connectors are more expensive than they [TS]

  used to be but it seems like I I fully [TS]

  expect just a complete turn over [TS]

  eventually to USBC because it's not it's [TS]

  not a fire or a situation in it oh it's [TS]

  so much more expensive and you have to [TS]

  put these way more expensive chips and [TS]

  the things and the chips have to be on [TS]

  both ends and you know our Thunderbolt [TS]

  with the weird chips and the wires for [TS]

  the high-speed connection and all sorts [TS]

  of stuff like that like that's not it's [TS]

  just a different physical connector for [TS]

  USB plus a different you know chipset [TS]

  and USB 3 I think is rolling out pretty [TS]

  well 3.1 maybe I don't know what the [TS]

  with the hold of this people chatter I'm [TS]

  saying the windows there are windows [TS]

  lots to have USB see of course there's [TS]

  been a lot of tops to have everything on [TS]

  it it's just that I don't I don't see [TS]

  the it's it's not like remember in USB 2 [TS]

  came along yours [TS]

  one point one did not last long in the [TS]

  face of USB - USB - just rolled out [TS]

  across the whole industry and you know [TS]

  you would have USB 2 port everywhere [TS]

  except for like a keyboard and mouse [TS]

  which would be one point one for a while [TS]

  but us PC has not rolled out like that [TS]

  well for a long time like almost every [TS]

  PC you would buy would have like two [TS]

  blue ports and then six blackboard yeah [TS]

  but the point is it had the blue ones [TS]

  like it had like you know keep the old [TS]

  ones around the same reason they kept [TS]

  like parallel port and the ps2 port rank [TS]

  is there if their PC makers I'll always [TS]

  do that but you have the new ones USB to [TS]

  buy a PC without USB to anywhere on it [TS]

  and the USB to age was unheard of but [TS]

  like I said Microsoft with these very [TS]

  expensive high-end fancy Surface tablet [TS]

  laptop convertible whatever thingies [TS]

  seems proudly to be shipping them [TS]

  without any USB C ports and defending [TS]

  their decision by saying oh you can get [TS]

  an adapter it's USB through front one [TS]

  it's totally the same thing we just [TS]

  don't like that connector which is weird [TS]

  you know um having now had my first well [TS]

  what I consider to be my first USB C [TS]

  device which is the switch yes I have an [TS]

  Apple TV and yes that's us PC but that [TS]

  doesn't really count [TS]

  the idea of a theoretical future where I [TS]

  have a a MacBook that has been updated [TS]

  which in and of itself is a very [TS]

  theoretical future I have a MacBook [TS]

  that's been updated that is powered by [TS]

  USB see I have a switch that is bent [TS]

  that is powered by us PC the thought of [TS]

  a phone being powered by USB see for [TS]

  convenience alone sounds pretty awesome [TS]

  doesn't now I don't really love the USBC [TS]

  connector as much as I like lightning [TS]

  connector no small part because the [TS]

  Lightning connector smaller and also [TS]

  because I have eleventy billion [TS]

  lightning cables strewn throughout my [TS]

  entire life but having one port that one [TS]

  connector that can really be all things [TS]

  to all people is pretty neat and does [TS]

  sound appealing so as much as I don't [TS]

  actually begrudge the Lightning [TS]

  connector because I think it it's really [TS]

  really good in especially in ways that [TS]

  the dock connector wasn't I still think [TS]

  a USB see future might be pretty cool [TS]

  hell it would make the phone's get [TS]

  - right that's that's a way in as well [TS]

  that means more battery exactly I don't [TS]

  know well we'll see but uh I mean it [TS]

  certainly does sound appealing in that [TS]

  sense idea I'm a little bit envious of [TS]

  the Android folks with their USBC lives [TS]

  we are sponsored this week by mail route [TS]

  stop your spam today with a free 30-day [TS]

  trial at mail route net slash ATP you [TS]

  know who'd handle your email security [TS]

  and delivery people who do only that [TS]

  that's mail route even the big companies [TS]

  are bowing out of the email protection [TS]

  business because it's hard work Postini [TS]

  went away [TS]

  McAfee MX logic Google even came out and [TS]

  said they want you to use a gateway [TS]

  service like mail routes so they don't [TS]

  have to filter all your Google Apps mail [TS]

  so who can you trust to do the job [TS]

  properly and stick around that is mail [TS]

  route this team has been focused [TS]

  entirely on email security since 1997 I [TS]

  was in middle school mail route protects [TS]

  your email and hardware against spam [TS]

  viruses and other threats and they [TS]

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  server can't and there's no hardware or [TS]

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  service if you own your own domain name [TS]

  that's all you need you point your MX [TS]

  records at them and you tell them where [TS]

  to deliver your clean filtered mail the [TS]

  interface is incredibly easy to navigate [TS]

  it's loaded with admin tools including [TS]

  even a full api all designed to make [TS]

  your life better as an email admin or [TS]

  even just an end user like me [TS]

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  whether you're a small home business or [TS]

  a huge ISP mail route handles customers [TS]

  of all sizes and provides the same level [TS]

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  they protect your email from spam and [TS]

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  during outages and that's all they do [TS]

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  I think the best discount on all [TS]

  podcasting ten percent lifetime discount [TS]

  once again mail route net slash a TP [TS]

  thank you very much two mail routes for [TS]

  sponsoring our show once again [TS]

  [Music] [TS]

  all right so Apple has maybe started [TS]

  working on and presumably started [TS]

  working on a series thing with the [TS]

  screen and obviously this is all rumors [TS]

  there's been a lot of rumors that this [TS]

  might happen in a couple of weeks at WDC [TS]

  there's TechCrunch article get ready for [TS]

  a new iPad and a mysterious series [TS]

  speaker at WWDC uh as we've talked about [TS]

  numerous times I currently anyway don't [TS]

  really care about ladies in a tube so [TS]

  Marco or John you want to kind of take [TS]

  this one over I mean our timing on this [TS]

  is terrible because this is an old story [TS]

  and there's no rumors about it now well [TS]

  no just because it's rumored to be [TS]

  announced in two weeks so it's it's [TS]

  probably not a great time to speculate [TS]

  too much on it I would simply say that [TS]

  if you're in the market for one of these [TS]

  home speakers like the Amazon echo or [TS]

  Google home or whatever else I would say [TS]

  it's probably worth waiting for this [TS]

  announcement just to see what it is see [TS]

  what you know what you're dealing with [TS]

  but I also am concerned because this is [TS]

  the kind of product that Apple [TS]

  historically has not done well something [TS]

  that has to be cheap and integrates well [TS]

  with everything else people have and [TS]

  based on a really reliable really [TS]

  advanced voice assistant maybe they've [TS]

  become a different company maybe they [TS]

  have really ramped up the API I mean I [TS]

  do expect WGC to have a lot of Sirikit [TS]

  advancements the seer API for [TS]

  third-party apps I would love to have [TS]

  some kind of like audio library [TS]

  functionality so that overcast could [TS]

  actually use the seer API because right [TS]

  now there's nothing for it to use but it [TS]

  that would be nice if there was some way [TS]

  to say you know hey thing play this [TS]

  podcast and overcast or something like [TS]

  that that would be awesome you can't do [TS]

  it you can't do that now you can't say [TS]

  hey play episode number 17 of my [TS]

  favorite podcast no can't do it [TS]

  that's right because they I figure [TS]

  whether we talked about this at the last [TS]

  hour you see if it was like a really [TS]

  limited domain of things you can do it's [TS]

  not so much the playing of the audio is [TS]

  the idea that this is a voice command [TS]

  that you can issue that causes something [TS]

  to happen like the head I've abstracted [TS]

  it away from the level of the [TS]

  app to just be like this is a desire for [TS]

  a thing to happen that is not up [TS]

  specifically your app can deal with [TS]

  they'll is all coming back to me now it [TS]

  will come back to me more Debbie WC [TS]

  sessions but that's that's a killer [TS]

  feature they're just described right [TS]

  there like just like it is a killer [TS]

  feature of many of these TV attach pucks [TS]

  where you can say you know play stepa [TS]

  sewed five season two of seinfeld and it [TS]

  does that and even if you don't have the [TS]

  world's worst television remote okay the [TS]

  Apple remote it's a pain not to use to [TS]

  use any remote to do that I the sentence [TS]

  I just said you will be watching that [TS]

  episode so much faster than if you have [TS]

  to navigate fine Seinfeld so my recent [TS]

  shows Oh seasons season two scroll [TS]

  Scroll scroll episode five like it's so [TS]

  much better so being able to do that [TS]

  especially on you know overcast feature [TS]

  suggestions especially if it doesn't [TS]

  expect you to all have that already [TS]

  downloaded like you have overcast [TS]

  understood you don't have to be [TS]

  subscribed to the podcast that will go [TS]

  to overcast directory find the podcast [TS]

  that I think is the best match for that [TS]

  download the episode number that us or [TS]

  and start playing it like all in one [TS]

  thing again doing that by hand you could [TS]

  do it by hand overcast right now but [TS]

  being able to say that sentence into the [TS]

  earphone and have it do that that would [TS]

  be like magic right and and that is I [TS]

  assume if and when they do any kind of [TS]

  like music or audio type integration [TS]

  with Siri with Siri kit I mean I assume [TS]

  that's the kind of thing that they will [TS]

  do because most other services that we [TS]

  do this you know think of like a music [TS]

  streaming service they're not going to [TS]

  have the entire index of all songs that [TS]

  are available on the service stored [TS]

  locally in the app they're going to have [TS]

  to make a network request they're going [TS]

  to have to have some way for Apple to [TS]

  index their libraries and and to it that [TS]

  way like the Siri logic probably [TS]

  server-side could then figure out what [TS]

  you're actually asking about and and you [TS]

  know send like an ID to the to the app [TS]

  and I think this is probably why they [TS]

  didn't have it last year because all the [TS]

  existing intents they call them for the [TS]

  for Siri Kate like all the different [TS]

  ways you can use Siri kid you know it's [TS]

  stuff like booking a ride or sending a [TS]

  payment or things like that and those [TS]

  are things that have like a limited [TS]

  command dictionary that you could pretty [TS]

  much deal with locally without having to [TS]

  custom index content from uber or [TS]

  whatever else or [TS]

  you know it and or you know any any what [TS]

  the other things like they can do [TS]

  whereas if you say like integrate with [TS]

  overcast or Spotify or things like that [TS]

  Siri has to has to have some way to to [TS]

  index these services just to see what [TS]

  other possible things people can be [TS]

  asking for and and you know and then [TS]

  have some way to interpret what people [TS]

  are asking to be those things and then [TS]

  tell the app this person just asked for [TS]

  the you know artist with this IDE and [TS]

  the track with this ID or whatever else [TS]

  and that's a lot more to build so that's [TS]

  why I assume that it wasn't there last [TS]

  year and I don't even know if it's going [TS]

  to be this year or ever but if if they [TS]

  give the the option for Siri to [TS]

  integrate with audio services to do it [TS]

  right is going to involve all that stuff [TS]

  and that's a lot of work and that's a [TS]

  lot of stuff for us to implement on our [TS]

  site as well but it could be awesome the [TS]

  one advantage I feel like they have on [TS]

  this is the you know we this happens [TS]

  every time we talk about thing is if [TS]

  you're in the audience and they're [TS]

  announcing whatever whatever their Siri [TS]

  thing is that you talk to right and you [TS]

  don't already have one of the existing [TS]

  things that you talk to almost anything [TS]

  the demo will look amazing if you've [TS]

  never seen it done before so assume [TS]

  speaking of the audio thing assume they [TS]

  say even if it's just integrated with [TS]

  Apple music it's not third-party you [TS]

  can't do it but Apple music has it and [TS]

  they go up there and demo something and [TS]

  they rattle off some sentence that's [TS]

  like what's that song that goes blah [TS]

  blah blah and maybe they hum a tune or [TS]

  do the lyrics or want you know some kind [TS]

  of a touchy-feely thing that you [TS]

  definitely were through that right and [TS]

  it finds it because like you know all [TS]

  the you know amazon and google both have [TS]

  the say an arbitrary lyric from a song [TS]

  and it will find it I don't know if [TS]

  either one of them has a do you know [TS]

  some the tune and it will find it I mean [TS]

  I guess people aren't in tune enough to [TS]

  do that echo has lyrics search at least [TS]

  I don't know if it has like like melody [TS]

  sir yeah as I'm saying like the Google [TS]

  home has it too if you say we say [TS]

  literally any lyric from a song if you [TS]

  get it close to right it will find that [TS]

  song and play it it works amazingly well [TS]

  right so it's almost as if an apple [TS]

  doesn't demo that they're just showing [TS]

  that they're behind two people to note [TS]

  but if you don't have an echo and don't [TS]

  have a Google home that demo is [TS]

  incredibly powerful and because it's [TS]

  Apple this is one of those places where [TS]

  it's true [TS]

  Oh Apple just announced something [TS]

  whatever else has had for years and I [TS]

  just get pressed goes there Apple that [TS]

  effect exists right because you know [TS]

  they're good showman's and you know the [TS]

  showmanship that they have and the the [TS]

  way they're able to you know give a [TS]

  compelling demo in in ways that like the [TS]

  Amazon echo commercial or the Google [TS]

  home things are not able to and because [TS]

  there's so many eyes on Apple and yada [TS]

  yada yada it is an opportunity for them [TS]

  to really sell features that other [TS]

  people have had for years that Apple is [TS]

  probably going to do worse and come out [TS]

  looking like Wow Apple is amazing and [TS]

  innovative and the only stories that [TS]

  will be hey apples playing catch-up are [TS]

  going to be in the nerdy tech press that [TS]

  we read you know well I mean I think [TS]

  Apple is going to own privacy looks [TS]

  probably the UI on the screen uh and [TS]

  then you know maybe sound quality [TS]

  because the echoes sound quality is not [TS]

  that great I don't have a Google home [TS]

  but who cares and it's sorry Shawn it's [TS]

  not it's not great I mean you've seen [TS]

  it's not very big it's a one little [TS]

  dinky speaker thing in there right right [TS]

  so Apple is probably going to own those [TS]

  things but the usefulness of these [TS]

  products is based so heavily on the [TS]

  incredible speed and reliability of the [TS]

  voice service that's where I have [TS]

  concerns about Apple because Siri for [TS]

  all of its smarts for all of its [TS]

  wonderful international support for all [TS]

  the different you know the more advanced [TS]

  API that it has compared to like the [TS]

  echo because like what I was saying [TS]

  earlier about like Sierra having to [TS]

  parse the way that people say things and [TS]

  kind of just pass off to the application [TS]

  like alright the user requested this [TS]

  artist ID this track ID the way that [TS]

  like the echo does it is that has a very [TS]

  limited vocabulary of what you can [TS]

  specify and then it just can tell you [TS]

  like the exact words somebody said but [TS]

  then it's up to the application to [TS]

  figure out like how do i parse that [TS]

  which is easier to implement it is it [TS]

  enables a lot more things from day one [TS]

  to be possible that API because you [TS]

  don't have to wait around for them to [TS]

  like to design your specific use case [TS]

  but it's way harder to actually use for [TS]

  anything non-trivial where Apple is [TS]

  going to come in from is that you know [TS]

  they're going to come in with Sirikit [TS]

  support only I would imagine it's going [TS]

  to be really great for these like 12 [TS]

  the app types to integrate with this but [TS]

  nobody else can or nobody else can do [TS]

  anything useful with this so that's [TS]

  gonna be problem number one and part [TS]

  number two is just like again the [TS]

  reliability of Siri and and the the [TS]

  advancement of Siri I don't think they [TS]

  have kept up and you know ever this is [TS]

  always an argument everyone always [TS]

  thinks like oh well I asked the Amazon [TS]

  device about this thing and it gave me [TS]

  this kind of weird answer and then I [TS]

  asked Siri to give me a better answer or [TS]

  the the Google or amp and Amazon devices [TS]

  don't support my language or my country [TS]

  and Siri does and that's all valid [TS]

  everyone can have their own opinions but [TS]

  I think overall it's fairly clear that [TS]

  Siri has been for most people less [TS]

  reliable and less smart on the whole [TS]

  than the other services and this is the [TS]

  kind of device where like you know on [TS]

  your phone it's kind of a secondary [TS]

  thing you know some people use it [TS]

  heavily but for the most part like [TS]

  everywhere else the Siri exists kind of [TS]

  a secondary input type with this kind of [TS]

  device it is the primary input method [TS]

  and it has to be fast and it has to be [TS]

  reliable and it has to get it right [TS]

  almost every single time and that's what [TS]

  makes the Amazon products which I have [TS]

  the most experience with that's what [TS]

  makes them so compelling when you're [TS]

  used to the Apple ecosystem when you're [TS]

  used to Siri when you first see an echo [TS]

  you're like oh my god that was fast and [TS]

  then as you start using it more more [TS]

  you're like this this works like every [TS]

  time and that has just never been a lot [TS]

  of people's experience with Siri so for [TS]

  this product to succeed I think Siri has [TS]

  to be way better than it is now and [TS]

  maybe it is maybe they're about to [TS]

  unveil a brand new version of Siri to [TS]

  everybody see that is way better and way [TS]

  more reliable I guess I think it's very [TS]

  likely based on their past performance [TS]

  yeah those are all things that can hide [TS]

  in the demo though from the PR [TS]

  perspective like of course it's going to [TS]

  work amazing in a demo because they [TS]

  rehearse and you know it's all set up to [TS]

  work perfectly [TS]

  we won't know whether they've actually [TS]

  done a good job with it until we get the [TS]

  things in our hand so why they get I [TS]

  think a bunch of positive reactions from [TS]

  the audience that's there because most [TS]

  people don't you know won't have any [TS]

  experience with the existing devices [TS]

  like this oh everything they see is new [TS]

  and amazing and the performance will be [TS]

  awesome on the stage because they're [TS]

  good at making a demo and everything [TS]

  like that and they'll get good press out [TS]

  of it from everybody except the tech [TS]

  press who knows they're playing catch-up [TS]

  and this is assuming they don't even [TS]

  have some big Wow feature I bet they [TS]

  probably [TS]

  have at least one headlining feature [TS]

  that echoing home don't have whatever it [TS]

  may be something that plays the Apple [TS]

  strike it'll be privacy this is the [TS]

  privacy angle too but also especially if [TS]

  there's a one with the screen I bet they [TS]

  can put better stuff more impressive [TS]

  things on that screen than Amazon can on [TS]

  their Amazon show whatever their [TS]

  terrible name is oh yeah their thing [TS]

  like it was like we were they in [TS]

  something but Amazon is so bad at user [TS]

  interface design I expect that to be [TS]

  clunky and it'll be underpowered so they [TS]

  can't do like whatever crazy GPU is [TS]

  gonna be in the Apple one to have cool [TS]

  effects and you know like just the same [TS]

  kind of functionality but it's you know [TS]

  even if it's just like nice screen [TS]

  savers of your family that it pulls from [TS]

  your photo library this is another angle [TS]

  by the way of like a it's why Casey will [TS]

  get one of these no matter you know and [TS]

  these why might you interested like it's [TS]

  cuz the Google home on I got because I [TS]

  have lots of my life I used the Google [TS]

  ecosystem it's got my email my calendar [TS]

  and one copy of my photos but the real [TS]

  copy of my photos are in Apple's photo [TS]

  library and Google hoes is just my sort [TS]

  of redundant backup that I use for you [TS]

  know for search and other things like [TS]

  that I'm interested in this one because [TS]

  the other half of my life is not in the [TS]

  Amazon ecosystem is in the Apple [TS]

  ecosystem so I would like one of these [TS]

  in my house so they'll have something [TS]

  that I can talk to that has access to [TS]

  the other half of my stuff and hopefully [TS]

  can do something interesting with it the [TS]

  other problem is going to have is that [TS]

  the support for home automation devices [TS]

  is going to limit it to home kit and the [TS]

  echo and other and the other things echo [TS]

  supports way more than just home kit and [TS]

  home kit is still like like every new [TS]

  smart home device is still not shipping [TS]

  with home kit today many of them are but [TS]

  there's still a lot out there and [TS]

  especially most of the cheap ones that [TS]

  most people are probably actually buying [TS]

  a lot of them are not home compatible [TS]

  they could play that up with a the [TS]

  privacy angle right like I think you're [TS]

  right about that but the way they can [TS]

  spin that is part of their pitch to you [TS]

  about privacy like I think it's one of [TS]

  the strengths homekit has in the [TS]

  stringent requirements during the more [TS]

  stringent security requirements with for [TS]

  devices that comply with it they won't [TS]

  come right out and say yeah there's not [TS]

  as much home good stuff out there and [TS]

  the best stuff is not home kit [TS]

  compatible [TS]

  but the stuff you do by that is actually [TS]

  home kit certified will have a slightly [TS]

  less chance of letting people own your [TS]

  entire house that's true yeah but so [TS]

  like again it's gonna be the kind of [TS]

  thing we're like the main selling points [TS]

  to this are going to be things that most [TS]

  people aren't really going to think to [TS]

  ask about or care about and the main [TS]

  downsides of it are probably going to be [TS]

  cost and support of devices out there [TS]

  and the reliability and and intelligence [TS]

  of its voice assistant those are pretty [TS]

  big things that's why I'm worried about [TS]

  this product I don't think that it's [TS]

  going to go very far in the market [TS]

  unless there's I mean we haven't seen it [TS]

  or know anything about it yet we don't [TS]

  even know technically that it's real so [TS]

  this could all change when we see it but [TS]

  I am very skeptical this product just [TS]

  because it seems like it requires [TS]

  strength that Apple doesn't have you [TS]

  know it'll be a good test for this [TS]

  because this device is in many ways like [TS]

  Apple TV like it's you know a especially [TS]

  the one with no screen a kind of a [TS]

  faceless device that's cheap small it's [TS]

  not a Mac it's not an iOS to buy [TS]

  strictly speaking even those running iOS [TS]

  under the covers and Apple TV is like [TS]

  well look look how badly they've done [TS]

  with that device they've made so many [TS]

  revisions have used to be this giant mac [TS]

  running you know tiger that did some [TS]

  weird stuff with iTunes and it morphed [TS]

  into this puck which was better but then [TS]

  it didn't get much better this the Siri [TS]

  in a puck in a tube and or whatever [TS]

  thing is a great test to say is the [TS]

  Apple TV not great because apples not [TS]

  good at making this kind of device or is [TS]

  the Apple TV not great because they were [TS]

  never able to do the content deals or is [TS]

  it some combination because it could be [TS]

  that the Apple TV [TS]

  the biggest thing hobbling it is all [TS]

  their grand visions for how this is [TS]

  going to change the way you watch TV [TS]

  have been thwarted by the fact that they [TS]

  can't get their deals done they cannot [TS]

  produce a compelling offering that lets [TS]

  people actually do all the things they [TS]

  want to do and the poor are kind of [TS]

  orphaned ghost town TV app on the Apple [TS]

  TV is you know there's no better example [TS]

  of the apples failure to bring it all [TS]

  together on the TV front most people [TS]

  don't have complaints about the hardware [TS]

  again [TS]

  terrible remote which hopefully will not [TS]

  be an issue on this tube thing so it [TS]

  could be that Apple is really good at [TS]

  making embedded devices that efficiently [TS]

  listen to audio and play music and make [TS]

  it you know maybe they're really good at [TS]

  that and in this case they don't need [TS]

  any content deals because it's just a [TS]

  you know a speaker and the microphones [TS]

  at a tube but on the other hand if they [TS]

  roll this out and it looks to us two [TS]

  years later like up it's one of those [TS]

  things that Apple makes like the Apple [TS]

  TV that is kind of mediocre more [TS]

  expensive than the competition and not [TS]

  as good and then we just like sit there [TS]

  and wait year after year for it to be [TS]

  updated in some way well Apple refuses [TS]

  to acknowledge the shortcomings yeah I [TS]

  take small issue with what you said I've [TS]

  really loved my Apple TV now to be fair [TS]

  I use it for a very particular set of [TS]

  tasks and it is very well suited to [TS]

  basically what it boils down to is [TS]

  playing Plex or playing Netflix and [TS]

  that's basically all it ever does but [TS]

  for those things it's actually quite [TS]

  good in I mean I'm not saying the remote [TS]

  is perfect by any stretch but it's fine [TS]

  it's not great but it's fine it works I [TS]

  I don't know I I wish it wasn't so [TS]

  symmetrical but but complete compare it [TS]

  to the competition the other pucks that [TS]

  have 4k support that cost less money [TS]

  that play Netflix just as well the [TS]

  remotes are better on like that's why [TS]

  people say I believe is not bad the [TS]

  remote is bad [TS]

  but Apple TV itself is not bad I use it [TS]

  all the time too right but if you are in [TS]

  the market for a puck and you don't have [TS]

  a bunch of movies that you bought on [TS]

  iTunes [TS]

  apples puck costs more does less and is [TS]

  worse in pretty much every way than the [TS]

  competition and that's why people say [TS]

  it's you know it's not the best puck [TS]

  offering yeah that's fair I don't know [TS]

  we'll see I mean we're only a couple [TS]

  weeks away so we'll see what happens [TS]

  yeah oh and then the other puck front is [TS]

  like when the various versions were [TS]

  introduced sometimes they were pretty [TS]

  darn good right but Apple just is not [TS]

  interested in keeping up with the [TS]

  Joneses so everyone else gets 4k support [TS]

  or does 24 frames per second output for [TS]

  the film nerds or whatever and apples [TS]

  like the one we got is fine let's say [TS]

  there for a few years [TS]

  don't worry about it maybe you update it [TS]

  maybe we won't needs 4k is that a thing [TS]

  that can't be a thing no way that's a [TS]

  thing that's not a thing we are [TS]

  sponsored this week by fracture a [TS]

  wonderful photo decor company go to [TS]

  fracture me calm [TS]

  podcast editor ATP in the one-question [TS]

  survey so they know you came from here [TS]

  fracture prints photos in vivid color [TS]

  directly on glass and look these days we [TS]

  know you put your photos on on you know [TS]

  Facebook Instagram whatever the case may [TS]

  be you put them on these online services [TS]

  they're at a timeline for what a day at [TS]

  best and then they're just gone so many [TS]

  of these photos just kind of get lost [TS]

  forever because you never really go back [TS]

  and look take the best ones whether it's [TS]

  for you to decorate your house or [TS]

  whether it's to give them as gift they [TS]

  make wonderful gifts and get them [TS]

  printed and hang them in your house or [TS]

  give them to people who appreciate them [TS]

  and if you're going to get them printed [TS]

  there's lots of options to do this you [TS]

  can get you know a paper kind of print [TS]

  and everything then you have to frame it [TS]

  then you got to hang it and you know the [TS]

  frame frames are expensive or cheap [TS]

  looking that you got to pick one of the [TS]

  other usually and they you know they're [TS]

  kind of a pain with fracture the prints [TS]

  are glass it's it's like H it's a pane [TS]

  of glass that is a photo print that goes [TS]

  edge to edge you don't need a frame it [TS]

  is kind of its own standalone object it [TS]

  is a sleek frameless design and photos [TS]

  look incredibly clean and modern in [TS]

  these fracture glass sheets and they [TS]

  even optimize color and contrast of your [TS]

  photo to really make it pop in this [TS]

  environment and it is incredible looking [TS]

  I have these all over my house all over [TS]

  my office people compliment them all the [TS]

  time and again they make wonderful gifts [TS]

  fractures come with a 60 day happiness [TS]

  guarantee so your Cheryl of your order [TS]

  and each fracture print is handmade in [TS]

  Gainesville Florida [TS]

  from us source materials in their carbon [TS]

  neutral Factory so check it out today I [TS]

  highly recommend it for more information [TS]

  and 10% off your first order visit [TS]

  fracture me comm / podcast and then they [TS]

  ask you what podcast you came from and [TS]

  say ATP and that one questions here [TS]

  right that's it it helps support the [TS]

  show once again 10% off your first order [TS]

  at fracture me calm slash podcast make [TS]

  sure you list at ATP as the source there [TS]

  thank you very much to fracture for [TS]

  sponsoring our show we're going to take [TS]

  a really weird turn now [TS]

  my name's talk about Google i/o that's [TS]

  the thing and it was somewhat [TS]

  interesting leave it's all timely right [TS]

  and it's so timely giving are typically [TS]

  a few weeks ago a indeed so Google IO [TS]

  happened uh May 17 through 19 recording [TS]

  this on the 24th and the only bit of IO [TS]

  that I watched was the keynote but I did [TS]

  watch the keynote and it was very well [TS]

  given it was not an apple keynote it was [TS]

  very good and if there's anything that [TS]

  we can all agree that Apple is very good [TS]

  at its doing a keynote presentation and [TS]

  so I watched the keynote and by and [TS]

  large I didn't think that there was that [TS]

  much to discuss for us to discuss there [TS]

  were a couple things though one was the [TS]

  updates to Google photos which I am a [TS]

  devout fan of yes I understand that I'm [TS]

  giving Google my data yes I understand [TS]

  that that can be creepy yes I understand [TS]

  that there are penalties for doing so [TS]

  yes I understand I am paying them and [TS]

  yet they're still scanning all my data [TS]

  despite the fact that I'm paying them [TS]

  however I made the choice that to me the [TS]

  benefits are worth it in the case of [TS]

  Google photos and so that's just my [TS]

  choice may not be right for you but it's [TS]

  right for me um so what they've done is [TS]

  they've done a lot with um sharing with [TS]

  Google photos so me it's it's much [TS]

  easier that to share kind of your photos [TS]

  with your spouse or with those that are [TS]

  at like an event like a party or [TS]

  something like that and that looks [TS]

  really cool it's trying to be more [TS]

  proactive about you know hey it looks [TS]

  like Marco and John are in all these [TS]

  pictures do you want to share this with [TS]

  them you'll make an album and [TS]

  automatically share it with them [TS]

  and that sort of stuff is really cool [TS]

  and I'm looking forward to it although I [TS]

  think it'll be more useful if I knew [TS]

  more people that that were devout Google [TS]

  photos users like myself but we'll see [TS]

  but I thought the photos improvements [TS]

  look neat so I tried to merge this in [TS]

  the notes with the old question that we [TS]

  had many many months ago from Marco Adam [TS]

  was asking about family iCloud photo [TS]

  libraries this is a broad general [TS]

  question I think it was like we talked [TS]

  about a long time but what back do we [TS]

  mean and it's suddenly more relevant [TS]

  because like Casey said this was a [TS]

  headlining feature of their Google i/o [TS]

  presentation of the Google Photos [TS]

  portion of it like hey look at this neat [TS]

  way to do a thing that they think is [TS]

  common like you know you and your [TS]

  partner your spouse would ever just want [TS]

  to share all of your pictures with each [TS]

  other not like on a case by case [TS]

  spaces like AC was on [TS]

  spaces like AC was on [TS]

  which is another feature of like Oh [TS]

  suggest sharing these or whatever would [TS]

  just say look everything that I take [TS]

  also short to this person and the way [TS]

  they implemented it is they get to see [TS]

  that stuff and then they can look at [TS]

  them and save them into their own [TS]

  library if they like them right oh I [TS]

  like that one I want to keep that one I [TS]

  keep that one so it's not it's it's more [TS]

  like automatic by default offering of [TS]

  your photos to someone else it but it's [TS]

  still two separate libraries and the [TS]

  broader question about from you know [TS]

  from way back and then I hypercritical [TS]

  and no I life is an island is the very [TS]

  difficult problem the Apple has not yet [TS]

  tackled but that they're slowly building [TS]

  up the infrastructure to tackle I feel [TS]

  like and I hope they address it soon is [TS]

  the way my family at least uses photos [TS]

  and the way I think a lot of families [TS]

  would use photos if given the option [TS]

  which is you know if you have two [TS]

  parents and children both parents take [TS]

  pictures of their children depending on [TS]

  maybe at the same time at the same event [TS]

  or one parent is with one child one [TS]

  parents with or they take pictures on [TS]

  their phone that they pictures with [TS]

  their cameras however they take them [TS]

  each parent is an adult and has their [TS]

  own Apple ID or whatever Google account [TS]

  or where they have their own accounts [TS]

  which means in the Apple and Google [TS]

  world they have their own photo [TS]

  libraries and you know it's it's kind of [TS]

  this siloed arrangement and yet in a [TS]

  family situation usually you want all [TS]

  the pictures at least all the pictures [TS]

  of the kids probably all the pictures [TS]

  period to be together in one big library [TS]

  and not have to deal with you know two [TS]

  different people's libraries and sharing [TS]

  between them it's it's inefficient it's [TS]

  hard to keep track of like the one [TS]

  master library of family photos very [TS]

  often the solution is oh just designate [TS]

  one parent to be the official holder of [TS]

  their Apple ID has this library right [TS]

  that's what we do at our house [TS]

  my wife's Apple ID she is the owner of [TS]

  the photos library so on her iOS devices [TS]

  she has access to all of our pictures on [TS]

  my iOS devices and on my Mac I have [TS]

  access to only the pictures I've taken [TS]

  with my iPhone because all the other [TS]

  pictures go into the big library and [TS]

  periodically I have to manually export [TS]

  unmodified original you know to make [TS]

  sure I get all the stuff you know I [TS]

  can't bother editing them I on my phone [TS]

  or anything I have [TS]

  just let them stream into my Mac export [TS]

  all the unmodified originals and import [TS]

  them into the quote-unquote real photo [TS]

  library that is hers and we use that [TS]

  this used to be mine and now it's hers [TS]

  we've gone back and forth it but this is [TS]

  this is not what I want and it's not [TS]

  what any family wants and I think a lot [TS]

  of families do get by by having the [TS]

  designated person who owns the photo [TS]

  library but it's terrible because of [TS]

  some you know we take so many pictures [TS]

  on our phones I don't to be signed into [TS]

  my wife's Apple ID on my phone right [TS]

  it's bad enough that we all had to do [TS]

  that from the you know the old days of [TS]

  like buying things through the App Store [TS]

  and Apple does let you be signed into [TS]

  the App Store as your spouse but sign it [TS]

  everything else is you like they let you [TS]

  do that for sharing of apps that's what [TS]

  we do that we you know Aaron is me for [TS]

  the app store but she is her in every [TS]

  other way yeah an Apple added the [TS]

  capability to do that because it is a [TS]

  common arrangement but it's not great so [TS]

  Apple eventually added a couple years [TS]

  ago now the concept of a family where [TS]

  you can make a family in Apple's [TS]

  interface say here are the people who [TS]

  are members of the family here are the [TS]

  adults here are the children and family [TS]

  sharing allows you to share applications [TS]

  that that allow this I think the default [TS]

  is to allow but Marco would know I think [TS]

  you could configure your app to say it's [TS]

  not shareable like I don't want you to [TS]

  be able to share this but in my [TS]

  experience pretty much all apps are like [TS]

  this if I buy an app my children's the [TS]

  iOS devices have access to to that app [TS]

  just because I bought it it's a little [TS]

  bit weirder with in-app purchases and [TS]

  since so many things are free with [TS]

  in-app purchases now it's still a little [TS]

  bit weird but it is you know the the key [TS]

  thing is Apple allows the concept of a [TS]

  family to exist and membership in that [TS]

  family to exist and that membership [TS]

  bring certain sharing privileges that [TS]

  only exist within the family including [TS]

  some things of like my kids try to buy [TS]

  stuff on their iOS device and it sends [TS]

  me a notification that I have to approve [TS]

  or deny like they're leveraging that [TS]

  functionality to do that so they're [TS]

  they're creeping up on it before it just [TS]

  you be a bunch of a bunch of Apple IDs [TS]

  that you'd be shared in weird ways [TS]

  now you can construct a family unit and [TS]

  and specify everything about it you can [TS]

  give kids Apple IDs which you didn't use [TS]

  to be able to do now you can they just [TS]

  need to take the next step which is stop [TS]

  siloing libraries of photos and it's a [TS]

  really difficult problem because you [TS]

  might think well I don't want all the [TS]

  photos from two people to be shared [TS]

  forever into one giant library [TS]

  like how would that even work in terms [TS]

  of billing and how do I keep some photos [TS]

  private if I'm taking a million pictures [TS]

  of my phone of like you know a bunch of [TS]

  you know things in the hardware store [TS]

  for some repair I'm doing and my wife [TS]

  doesn't want them appearing at her phone [TS]

  because you know that's just relevant to [TS]

  me like it is a hard problem don't get [TS]

  me wrong it is not like they should just [TS]

  snap their fingers and do this they just [TS]

  need to make incremental progress [TS]

  towards in it eventually they need to [TS]

  get there and even Google with their [TS]

  thing of like oh you can just see all my [TS]

  pictures and pick the ones that you want [TS]

  that is still incremental progress [TS]

  because this is still two entirely [TS]

  different libraries it's just easing the [TS]

  friction of how you get think money from [TS]

  one thing to the other but I wouldn't [TS]

  like that solution either beside [TS]

  constantly thinking oh did you pull on [TS]

  all the photos of yesterday or did you [TS]

  did you forget some or where did you [TS]

  leave off I just want them all to be in [TS]

  one big pool I just wanted to be our [TS]

  photos like the way it is now and so I [TS]

  really hope Apple is slowly but surely [TS]

  working towards it and I hope moogle is [TS]

  too because I think that is that is a [TS]

  better way for families to manage their [TS]

  photos than any of the current systems I [TS]

  agree with you who has the photo [TS]

  libraries in your houses I do we have [TS]

  two different ones with lots of [TS]

  duplication and lots of wasted effort [TS]

  and lots of wasted iCloud space and hard [TS]

  drive space and we are our own people [TS]

  and we you know have our own ways of [TS]

  doing things we have some of our own [TS]

  pictures we have a bunch of family [TS]

  pictures it would be nice to have both [TS]

  but usually what actually happens is [TS]

  whenever one of us wants a picture the [TS]

  other one took we asked cross the office [TS]

  hey can you send me that picture [TS]

  whatever whatever and then we either [TS]

  airdrop it to week to each other or we [TS]

  go browse our hard drives on our network [TS]

  share and do it that way you get freaked [TS]

  out about whether you're actually [TS]

  getting original quality when you share [TS]

  them with each other because almost all [TS]

  the sharing interfaces do not give you [TS]

  original quality yeah we don't we don't [TS]

  do any of the sharing with like you know [TS]

  in inside the Photos app like the shared [TS]

  albums like that will do with like [TS]

  sharing photos with friends or you know [TS]

  for an event but but those are not full [TS]

  quality as Jason's now pointed out I [TS]

  think I upgraded this this past week [TS]

  those are only like three megapixels I [TS]

  mean they're very very small when when [TS]

  I'm doing like transferred between TIFF [TS]

  and I you know we just we either do [TS]

  airdrop or like direct file transfer [TS]

  over the network [TS]

  like airdrop from the photos thing on [TS]

  iOS sometimes is that full is that full [TS]

  quality like do you get the raw if she [TS]

  shot it in raw do you get a raw coming [TS]

  over the wired you get a JPEG for four [TS]

  transfers of Raw's that's when will [TS]

  usually involve just the network shares [TS]

  we're all just I will just open up her [TS]

  hard drive on my computer over the [TS]

  network and pull the file over Ethernet [TS]

  because Ethan it's awesome airdrop is [TS]

  usually when the photo has originated on [TS]

  an iPhone when it was taken by an iPhone [TS]

  then we will a or drop it you know you [TS]

  know and that's that I'm pretty sure [TS]

  that is the original file then in that [TS]

  case the other terrible thing about [TS]

  separate libraries and sharing photos is [TS]

  it it either discourages you the [TS]

  individual people from doing edits or it [TS]

  makes you feel bad about it because say [TS]

  you both have your own photos and your [TS]

  own things and you've all done your own [TS]

  edits and crop things and made them look [TS]

  nice you would like it and like what I [TS]

  would want to happen is look we're both [TS]

  say you are both using photos I don't [TS]

  know if you are but if you are both [TS]

  using Apple's Photos app why can't I get [TS]

  all of that give me the unmodified [TS]

  original give me your modifications like [TS]

  it keeps them all losslessly like it has [TS]

  all that information your only choices [TS]

  instead are what I do would export [TS]

  unmodified original which I really hope [TS]

  does what it says because I'm trusting [TS]

  it but you are you are losing all of the [TS]

  edits at that point because you're [TS]

  saying forget about the edits and it's [TS]

  like oh why did I even bother do it [TS]

  happens when we go on vacation lot of [TS]

  times we go on vacation and I'll putting [TS]

  the photos into my photos library and my [TS]

  Apple ID and like picking favorites and [TS]

  doing edits and then I have to do this [TS]

  laborious manual sync process it reminds [TS]

  me of the old days when I would get a [TS]

  new Mac and like manually do what [TS]

  migration assistant does today which you [TS]

  know it was fun the first five or six [TS]

  hundred times so it eventually gets old [TS]

  I will you know do all this picking and [TS]

  editing and cropping and all this other [TS]

  stuff and then when I come back to the [TS]

  home computer I have to like make a [TS]

  bunch of smart albums to like pull all [TS]

  the favorites and export on modified [TS]

  originals for those and then redo my [TS]

  edits to make them look like I did over [TS]

  there cribbing off of them to see how I [TS]

  decided to crop it and so it's just it [TS]

  is not good at all and the other choice [TS]

  is to just be like okay well I'm not [TS]

  going to I'm going to import them into [TS]

  my library because I I have the device [TS]

  with me and then when I get home to the [TS]

  real library I well you know I'll just [TS]

  dump them to haven't done [TS]

  yeah modifications to them or I'll be [TS]

  logged in as my wife the whole vacation [TS]

  and use her account in this thing it's [TS]

  just a bunch of bad options yeah we we [TS]

  solved that problem again by duplication [TS]

  there's lots of duplication the only [TS]

  thing that helps here is that TIFF and I [TS]

  both have very different editing styles [TS]

  she's way better at it but I will often [TS]

  take my own pass at things before her or [TS]

  if I don't think she's going to care [TS]

  about that photo more for something I [TS]

  took and so usually my usually anything [TS]

  edited in my library was edited by me [TS]

  and she takes her version it makes a way [TS]

  better version later but that's again [TS]

  just we solve this vert we saw this [TS]

  problem just by duplication more and [TS]

  more duplication and it's a terrible [TS]

  solution but it does avoid a lot of the [TS]

  problems that any kind of shared library [TS]

  would add it's just really inefficient [TS]

  another feature request our photos [TS]

  anything that I do a lot is that I don't [TS]

  have to people because like the editing [TS]

  styles I have just me who has different [TS]

  ideas about editing it's a very frequent [TS]

  operation for me is to duplicate a photo [TS]

  so I can do a different edit on it [TS]

  because you can't have more than one [TS]

  edit per photo alright so with a faired [TS]

  a shared library family photo library [TS]

  one of the features they should have is [TS]

  the ability to do multiple edits of a [TS]

  single photo so then you could have the [TS]

  TIFF edit and the Marco edit with one or [TS]

  you know unmodified original beneath [TS]

  them and have an interface to that that [TS]

  would be great instead of me you know [TS]

  instead of me duplicating a thing [TS]

  getting image one two three four you [TS]

  know copy JPEG and do modifications [TS]

  there and you know like it's a thing I [TS]

  think I think people do multiple [TS]

  possible edits even if it's just two [TS]

  different crops right one one crop that [TS]

  you're going to use for sharing with the [TS]

  family because you know they're going to [TS]

  be looking at on a phone and then a [TS]

  different crop and edit for the one that [TS]

  you're going to like you know print on a [TS]

  fracture or something and then throw up [TS]

  on the wall because it'll be much bigger [TS]

  yeah but lots of a low-hanging fruit in [TS]

  the photo world for you know just [TS]

  features like this but then the family [TS]

  sharing is not lying for it is a really [TS]

  difficult problem and I do see Apple [TS]

  making progress towards that I just [TS]

  can't wait for them to just finally to [TS]

  finally do it I think in general like [TS]

  kind of broadening this a little bit one [TS]

  of my biggest wish list items for the [TS]

  Mac specifically and I know this is it [TS]

  probably involve iOS also just because [TS]

  of the way this big sink setup works but [TS]

  I just want the photos app to just get [TS]

  more just get better and get more added [TS]

  to it you know like first on the realm [TS]

  of get better I really hope they finally [TS]

  sync the recognition data between images [TS]

  so that each new device doesn't have to [TS]

  run its CPU hot for three days just to [TS]

  figure it all out itself that's your [TS]

  still do you still use that feature I've [TS]

  kind of given up on it already I don't [TS]

  think you can turn it off [TS]

  I know but like in terms of oh I'm [TS]

  thinking mostly of the faces I know [TS]

  you're talking about like find me the [TS]

  picture of like a boat right that whole [TS]

  thing which I think works okay yeah it [TS]

  works a google photos one is better but [TS]

  the face one is the one that I had the [TS]

  most hope for and that makes me the most [TS]

  disappointed I continue to manually [TS]

  keyboard key word label the faces that I [TS]

  care about which is incredibly tedious [TS]

  and the Photos app fights you every step [TS]

  of the way like when they remove the [TS]

  keywords from underneath you can't [TS]

  display them anymore yeah it's so hard [TS]

  to figure out which ones have keywords [TS]

  on them or not and I was like well why [TS]

  you need to do that just let the face [TS]

  recognition figure it out and I try to [TS]

  train it and I try to convince it and [TS]

  it's close but it still just you know [TS]

  guess what people who are genetically [TS]

  related to each other tend to look [TS]

  similar and it's it's a hard problem I [TS]

  don't blame them for a Google doesn't [TS]

  get it perfectly either but I just wish [TS]

  I could just say I don't have to worry [TS]

  about that if I want to find pictures of [TS]

  my son I can just type in his name and [TS]

  it will find all the pictures of my son [TS]

  reality and photos it will find 15 [TS]

  percent of the photos of my son [TS]

  yeah so photos there is so much area for [TS]

  improvement with photos not only in the [TS]

  intelligence of what you're just talking [TS]

  about the intelligence of the [TS]

  recognition and the faces and everything [TS]

  and the syncing of that data which is [TS]

  always my complaint that like why does [TS]

  you still eyes have to do this over and [TS]

  over again and burn through with battery [TS]

  for the first few days or weeks that you [TS]

  own it and then just the entire Photos [TS]

  app on iOS it's fine I wouldn't say it's [TS]

  great but it's fine the Mac Photos app [TS]

  really needs a lot of help it is it is [TS]

  seemingly designed by people who don't [TS]

  use photos apps and who have never used [TS]

  it if to edit more than like one photo [TS]

  or to browse a library that had more [TS]

  than ten photos it really does seem like [TS]

  it is it was like rushed out once [TS]

  three years ago whenever it came out and [TS]

  then not touched since in any meaningful [TS]

  way and I really hope that changes [TS]

  because there's so much promise because [TS]

  the sinking system they've built for [TS]

  iCloud photo library has been rock-solid [TS]

  for me and for everyone else I've talked [TS]

  to who uses it it has been rock solid [TS]

  it's a great sink system it's integrated [TS]

  into everything it gets everything look [TS]

  your phone automatically the sharing is [TS]

  decent you know it's not amazing what's [TS]

  decent good enough I just wish the app [TS]

  on the Mac was better it is still not as [TS]

  good or not as responsive or not as easy [TS]

  to work through you know more than four [TS]

  photos as even iPhoto let alone aperture [TS]

  or Lightroom like it there's so much [TS]

  room for improvement in just the basics [TS]

  of navigating it picking through photos [TS]

  rating photos deleting the ones you [TS]

  don't want to keep editing ones with [TS]

  uniform and minor edits like it seems [TS]

  like it's designed right now for maximum [TS]

  friction and to be as error-prone as [TS]

  possible and I just really really wish [TS]

  and and this is a long shot I wish they [TS]

  would like I don't put a different team [TS]

  on it put a different designer on it [TS]

  something get some new blood in there to [TS]

  make the Photos app on the Mac great and [TS]

  it or even just good I'm not asking for [TS]

  a lot here but like make it usable for [TS]

  people to actually go through and sort [TS]

  through the thousands of pictures that [TS]

  we can now take with these amazing [TS]

  devices in our pockets all the time like [TS]

  make that better make it easier make it [TS]

  like don't show me 16 different [TS]

  animations to all these different levels [TS]

  deepen in this weird hierarchy just do [TS]

  it just you know respond to my [TS]

  keystrokes quickly when you're deleting [TS]

  photos out of a big list move it to the [TS]

  right to the next one instead of like [TS]

  just do do what every other photo app [TS]

  has ever done before and this one [TS]

  doesn't do it so I really really hope [TS]

  they got better imagine if they added [TS]

  features to imagine that like they [TS]

  actually added features like there the [TS]

  next year there would be more features [TS]

  in it imagine that would be great I'm [TS]

  not I'm not even see I'm not asking for [TS]

  much I'm kind of asking for features at [TS]

  this point enough but like what you said [TS]

  about that my I think I listed photos [TS]

  apples photos of all my favorite [TS]

  applications one year and we did like a [TS]

  favorites list and it's for the reason [TS]

  you [TS]

  said it's for the sinking and yeah I [TS]

  know people have horror stories about [TS]

  like all my images for black thumbnails [TS]

  and I lost all my data in bla bla but [TS]

  like you Marco for me it is bid and [TS]

  solid I just had my fingers crossed that [TS]

  I'm not just lucky right and that you [TS]

  know that it really is I think it really [TS]

  is reasonably reliable and so that's why [TS]

  I love it because it solved that problem [TS]

  for me or not for me for my wife because [TS]

  it's on her phone but anyway it's all [TS]

  the problem for one of us that's by the [TS]

  way that's one of the things I use a [TS]

  google photos for because we have this [TS]

  thing where her Apple ID is the family [TS]

  photo library and it's on her phone and [TS]

  her iPad but then I have Google photos [TS]

  running on her account on her Mac [TS]

  uploading to my Google account so if I [TS]

  want to pull one of our family photos i [TS]

  launched google photos on my phone [TS]

  because it's the only way on my phone [TS]

  that i can get to our families photos [TS]

  and so yes i pay for you know one [TS]

  terabyte of storage in google and also [TS]

  the maximum that you can buy an apple so [TS]

  it is not particularly monetarily [TS]

  efficient this is the system I have I've [TS]

  just never remembered that we're talking [TS]

  about Google i/o yeah yeah this is a [TS]

  song about Alice well I mean the photo [TS]

  photos was the thing photos the thing [TS]

  they talk about in like credit where [TS]

  credit is due to Google they are very [TS]

  smart for giving them me that ability [TS]

  the fact that I can run a client a thing [TS]

  a terrible thing on my Mac that somehow [TS]

  sucks all of the photos out of my Apple [TS]

  photos library and uploads into Google [TS]

  by the way and I give it to second rant [TS]

  on this little thing it's like it's a [TS]

  little menu bar icon it does what I want [TS]

  it to do which is like I'll find I don't [TS]

  know how I'll do it but I'll dig through [TS]

  your Apple crap and I will find your [TS]

  photos probably in a way that Apple [TS]

  doesn't want us to do what they do it [TS]

  and it works and I will push them up to [TS]

  the Google account of your choosing and [TS]

  so from my wife's account I can push up [TS]

  to mine but this little menu bar thing [TS]

  has this feature in terrible scare [TS]

  quotes where it will say it will tell [TS]

  you how many uploads failed and [TS]

  sometimes it will give you a [TS]

  notification site try try to upload this [TS]

  these pictures to Google photos and they [TS]

  failed click here to learn more and you [TS]

  click and it gives you this terrible [TS]

  little tiny dialogue that lists these [TS]

  very long file paths that you can't see [TS]

  the right-hand side of unless you scroll [TS]

  all right and it says these are all the [TS]

  ones that failed and there's a button on [TS]

  it or other you know other is a button [TS]

  or menu item whatever lets you through [TS]

  this thing say [TS]

  please retry them it's like don't wait [TS]

  for me to tell you just keep trying [TS]

  little google thing and maybe here's the [TS]

  thing maybe it does automatically retry [TS]

  maybe it's going to retry no matter what [TS]

  anyway but the fact that the UI has a [TS]

  way for you to see what failed and click [TS]

  the retry button compels me to every [TS]

  time I'm on her computer do that and and [TS]

  because their file names are all obscure [TS]

  I can't tell is it trying to reach up [TS]

  load these seven rows over and over [TS]

  again just not upload rows at all and [TS]

  every time it fails to upload them it [TS]

  tells me about it or is it if I never [TS]

  touched it would it merely retry [TS]

  constantly and eventually succeed no way [TS]

  to tell one of the worst like sort of [TS]

  like nerd baiting interfaces because [TS]

  once you give me an interface to see the [TS]

  failed and give me a button to tell it [TS]

  to retry it's cruel it is a cruel [TS]

  interface and if someone Google's [TS]

  listening to this a either make your [TS]

  thing never tell me about this and just [TS]

  upload them all or be make it so that [TS]

  they have some explanation for the [TS]

  failures and like or some kind of [TS]

  progress indication or something that [TS]

  will like if you're going to give me [TS]

  information give me actionable [TS]

  information but otherwise I would prefer [TS]

  it if you just did your best and kept [TS]

  trying without any input from me and it [TS]

  drives me nuts I've lost my train of [TS]

  thought and I was in too busy being [TS]

  angry about the thing Google i/o no I [TS]

  know I know exactly what you're thinking [TS]

  of and it's so bad you're absolutely [TS]

  right you use that thing as well Casey [TS]

  yeah yeah the uploader that's on the [TS]

  mandy do you get suckered into going [TS]

  into the fail dialog Phyllis I do and it [TS]

  seems like there's about 10 files mostly [TS]

  raw now I have a ton of raw files don't [TS]

  get me wrong so it uploads the raw as a [TS]

  general point of fact but there are like [TS]

  10 files that it just seems to forever [TS]

  be confused about and you can sort of [TS]

  figure out what they are but yes the [TS]

  everything you described an emphatic [TS]

  thumbs up to well really thumbs down to [TS]

  the uploader but thumbs up to what you [TS]

  were saying because I completely agree [TS]

  have you gotten to the point where you [TS]

  wrote down the file paths so the next [TS]

  time a dialog comes up you compare or [TS]

  screenshot it or otherwise try to record [TS]

  it because I'm coming close to that [TS]

  because you know you can't remember what [TS]

  they're all like nonsense names or [TS]

  whatever like is it the same 3 files [TS]

  that it's been telling you about every [TS]

  day for the past you know year and a [TS]

  half and I don't know it's different [TS]

  amounts I can tell you that sometimes [TS]

  it's five sometimes it's a hundred [TS]

  sometimes it's three [TS]

  five sometimes it's 50 like it tells you [TS]

  the counts on them anyway I'm this is a [TS]

  very long trip around for me too and [TS]

  fatica Lee agreeing with Marcos other [TS]

  complaint and that using Apple's photos [TS]

  feels like walking through like [TS]

  waist-deep molasses right and this is [TS]

  this is an esoteric thing that I think [TS]

  only that I'm particularly sensitive to [TS]

  and I think not everybody has the same [TS]

  hang-ups that I do about responsiveness [TS]

  right but I have big deep deep hang-ups [TS]

  about responsiveness and everything I do [TS]

  in photos because in photos you do a lot [TS]

  of repetitive go to the next thing crop [TS]

  move resize adjust star favorite keyword [TS]

  go to the next thing delete go to the [TS]

  next thing like that cycle that thing I [TS]

  do when I when I do photos when I go [TS]

  through my photos every single operation [TS]

  takes just a little bit longer than I [TS]

  think is reasonable it everything has [TS]

  this lag has this okay eventually I'll [TS]

  do that oh did you want to crap oh you [TS]

  want exit full-screen oh you want to [TS]

  enter full screen oh you want edit [TS]

  DeSoto wait a second okay now I'm [TS]

  drawing the other thing like I want this [TS]

  to be so fast that before the key comes [TS]

  up off the keyboard I have it activated [TS]

  on key down for cry like I wanted to be [TS]

  so incredibly fast because I mean I but [TS]

  at the time we bought this 5k iMac it's [TS]

  the fastest iMac you could buy and the [TS]

  fastest Mac you could buy period in [TS]

  single threaded performance I don't know [TS]

  what the holdup is I do have a massive [TS]

  library I admit that my library is not [TS]

  small maybe if I literally did have a [TS]

  hundred photos it would be fine I have I [TS]

  think I'm up to 80,000 90,000 I forget I [TS]

  don't know if I broke 100k yet I have a [TS]

  lot of photos I understand it's a [TS]

  difficult problem case but if like this [TS]

  is this is what I want out of it and my [TS]

  perception of it is that it is slower [TS]

  now than it was a life oh that's not [TS]

  fair because when I was I was using [TS]

  iPhoto especially older versions of I [TS]

  froze I had way fewer photos right but [TS]

  on the other hand I also had a slower [TS]

  Mac and there was no SSD and like I know [TS]

  either way that's what I personally want [TS]

  out of this program and aside from the [TS]

  features I want it to just be so so much [TS]

  faster make every single operation that [TS]

  I do like have as little lag as possible [TS]

  no transition no no you know redrawing [TS]

  things and again it's not just a [TS]

  transitions very very often I will hit a [TS]

  key combo to like zoom to full screen [TS]

  and either will ignore the fact that I [TS]

  hit spacebar to be like that never [TS]

  happened I'm never going to do that more [TS]

  it will it will start at the animation [TS]

  to go into editing mode but I you know [TS]

  double click the thing or click into [TS]

  edit mode it will start it perceptively [TS]

  after I am completely done with the [TS]

  input I have clicked or double clicked [TS]

  or whatever nothing happens on the [TS]

  screen for fractions of a second that [TS]

  seemed like an eternity and then the [TS]

  animation begins I just want to strangle [TS]

  somebody [TS]

  alright let's bring this back around [TS]

  remember we were talking about Google [TS]

  i/o like three hours ago is that related [TS]

  to that and getting photos getting by [TS]

  some of us there was a comment I saw [TS]

  from somebody maybe it was Gruber maybe [TS]

  who's just retweeting somebody somebody [TS]

  saying that using Google photos in your [TS]

  web browser it's more responsive than [TS]

  using the native Apple Photos app I [TS]

  wouldn't quite go that far because I [TS]

  don't do the sort of going through [TS]

  photos picking and editing and tagging [TS]

  and stuff in Google photos but I do use [TS]

  Google photos in the web interface [TS]

  frequently basically to find a picture [TS]

  that I'm looking for I go into it I use [TS]

  the search which i think is pretty neat [TS]

  I try to use its facial recognition [TS]

  which is not really that much better [TS]

  than apples but it's you know it's what [TS]

  I've got or whatever and my perception [TS]

  of scrolling through fro especially like [TS]

  scrolling through photos by date or [TS]

  filtering or searching those operations [TS]

  do actually feel faster in Google photos [TS]

  in Chrome then using the native app but [TS]

  for the picking and zooming and [TS]

  everything I imagine you'd end up with [TS]

  like download speed being an issue [TS]

  because you gotta you know I if I want [TS]

  to see the full res photo to edit and I [TS]

  want to go to the next full res photo [TS]

  that's going to happen a way faster on [TS]

  my 5k iMac with everything coming off [TS]

  the SSD than it is going to be pulling [TS]

  that stuff over the network so I'm not [TS]

  going to go as far as whoever that [TS]

  person was who said that the web version [TS]

  felt better than the native but the fact [TS]

  that there are any operations in which [TS]

  is a contest shows that Apple though is [TS]

  a long way to go and kudos to Google for [TS]

  making essentially a web page that you [TS]

  can go to that I can scroll through [TS]

  literally 90,000 photos and find what I [TS]

  want it's pretty amazing yeah because [TS]

  this isn't like a web versus native [TS]

  argument this is just the Photos app on [TS]

  the Mac it's just not very good at all [TS]

  like it [TS]

  really is quite poor and especially when [TS]

  you get into any kind of operation like [TS]

  this where you're trying to go through a [TS]

  batch of photos and pick through and [TS]

  delete and maybe star or do minor edits [TS]

  on even its again it's just like it [TS]

  fights you at every turn like it seems [TS]

  like it wants to show you its animations [TS]

  more than it wants you to get your work [TS]

  done [TS]

  you're just you're always waiting for it [TS]

  to do its thing [TS]

  to transition itself to animate [TS]

  something it's also I don't know it what [TS]

  do you guys think of the the incredibly [TS]

  deep like modal hierarchy that it has in [TS]

  the various editing controls like you [TS]

  know they typically like in a lot of [TS]

  image editors you have like a browsing [TS]

  mode and then you enter editing mode and [TS]

  in editing mode pretty much all the [TS]

  controls are visible it were or at least [TS]

  very close or at least like can be [TS]

  collapsed out really quickly with like a [TS]

  triangle drop-down thing but with photos [TS]

  both on iOS and on the Mac it it has [TS]

  these like this like second-tier so [TS]

  everything is like 2 or 3 levels in [TS]

  where like you go into editing mode and [TS]

  you don't just have a crop control you [TS]

  have the like you know it controls box [TS]

  and you open up the controls box and [TS]

  then you can crop from in there or so [TS]

  and like everything is like 2 or 3 [TS]

  levels deep and I find that quite [TS]

  cumbersome in real use and I know it's [TS]

  kind of a challenge on mobile because [TS]

  there's not a lot of space for controls [TS]

  but on the Mac that's not true but it [TS]

  seems like on the Mac they have copied [TS]

  over the iPhone style anyway [TS]

  unnecessarily I guess for consistency or [TS]

  because they didn't have any better [TS]

  ideas I don't know but there are a lot [TS]

  of powerful controls that photos on the [TS]

  Mac has but they're buried under so many [TS]

  different levels and modes and you have [TS]

  to toggle them on every single time and [TS]

  all these different things that I find [TS]

  it just incredibly cumbersome is it just [TS]

  me no that's that was I remember the [TS]

  last time I complained about it was [TS]

  about the crop aspect original crop [TS]

  aspect original price because because it [TS]

  wouldn't remember and also as you point [TS]

  out because why do I have to go three [TS]

  levels deep to get to this anyway like [TS]

  on my 5k IMAX screen it's comical that I [TS]

  have to click the thing to go to the [TS]

  screen where I can get my crop options [TS]

  then click the thing that brings up the [TS]

  crop options then click like there's so [TS]

  much room on the side of that screen you [TS]

  could put literally every edit control I [TS]

  mean [TS]

  is a big screen there's a lot of [TS]

  resolution there's not that many [TS]

  controls here like you know that's why [TS]

  applications you know from Adobe and [TS]

  summit have a bunch of configurable [TS]

  power pallets I'm not saying photos [TS]

  needs configurable palettes that is you [TS]

  know Pro feature the regular people you [TS]

  don't to throw a bunch of Palestinian [TS]

  faces it's too much but the old version [TS]

  you know iPhoto before photos had a more [TS]

  mac like interface where they said well [TS]

  we got all the screen real estate [TS]

  let's put as many of the commonly used [TS]

  editing functions on the screen at the [TS]

  same time it's you know it's visible [TS]

  interface in the same way that Apple [TS]

  used to be all into the toolbars and [TS]

  stuff like don't hide everything away if [TS]

  you have if you can make the controls [TS]

  visible to somebody it's easier them [TS]

  going going hunting for them and the [TS]

  multi-layer certainly is elegant and [TS]

  clean but it adds insult to injury on [TS]

  the timing thing because even a setting [TS]

  aside the mysterious lag before anything [TS]

  happens all those transitions have you [TS]

  know some kind of animation and they add [TS]

  up and it doesn't remember your [TS]

  preferences and if you do the same thing [TS]

  over and over again you just feel like [TS]

  you're it's like you're eating dinner [TS]

  but every time you wanted to take a bite [TS]

  of your dinner you had to go to the [TS]

  kitchen take a fork out of the [TS]

  silverware drawer closed sword will come [TS]

  back down take a line take a bite of [TS]

  your dinner and then throw that fork [TS]

  away into the garbage the next time you [TS]

  want to take a bite you got to get up [TS]

  from your seat go to the chicken go to [TS]

  get a floor or take out your fork closer [TS]

  to our come back sit down take a bite [TS]

  with it throw the fork away that's what [TS]

  using photos feels like my word I could [TS]

  not have put it better that's that's [TS]

  perfect that's exactly how it feels so [TS]

  Kotlin is a thing remember we're talking [TS]

  about i/o kids so Google announced first [TS]

  party support or official blessing if [TS]

  nothing else for Kotlin now Kotlin is [TS]

  the language by JetBrains JetBrains is a [TS]

  third party entity if you're done a [TS]

  developer or were once a.net developer [TS]

  like myself [TS]

  resharper is a JetBrains thing if i'm [TS]

  not mistaken your recovery i'm a [TS]

  developer [TS]

  recovering content developer and so [TS]

  JetBrains knows development tools pretty [TS]

  darn well and they decided to come up [TS]

  with Kotlin which my vague understanding [TS]

  is runs on the JVM it is it is [TS]

  compatible with the Android libraries [TS]

  what does it Android studio [TS]

  I believe it is shoot I probably have [TS]

  that wrong I apologize but anyway the [TS]

  thing the ide that is the official [TS]

  blessed ie [TS]

  I believe started as a JetBrains IDE [TS]

  this is for all of Android development [TS]

  not just Kotlin and so um so yeah now [TS]

  Google has said hey we understand the [TS]

  Collins a thing we embrace it if you [TS]

  want to make your apps and in Colin [TS]

  Colin then feel free and what's really [TS]

  fascinating about Colin is it's really [TS]

  eerily similar to Swift now at this [TS]

  point anyone with a neckbeard is [TS]

  probably saying well actually it's not [TS]

  exactly like Swift at all and bla bla [TS]

  but the point is at a glance it looks [TS]

  really really really similar to Swift [TS]

  and that's a huge improvement because if [TS]

  you've ever seen how absolutely bananas [TS]

  closures are in Java or at least up [TS]

  until modern versions of Java which I [TS]

  don't think Android supports or maybe [TS]

  has just recently supported closures are [TS]

  comically awful and so Kotlin is a new [TS]

  ish language it was started around the [TS]

  same time as Swift and looks really [TS]

  really similar to Swift there's a [TS]

  website that's going around we'll put a [TS]

  link in the show notes it is not a [TS]

  flawless comparison of Swift and Kotlin [TS]

  but it gives you a basic idea of what [TS]

  the two of them look like side by side [TS]

  we'll put that in the show notes like I [TS]

  said this is super cool the team at work [TS]

  had been kind of looking at Kotlin and [TS]

  debating whether or not they they wanted [TS]

  to dive in with it but it kind of pushed [TS]

  their pump the breaks because it wasn't [TS]

  officially blessed [TS]

  well now it's officially blessed and so [TS]

  now we're going to start using it as for [TS]

  well really the Android teams go and [TS]

  start using as far as I'm aware so this [TS]

  is all really cool stuff and I'm really [TS]

  excited about it and I'm interested to [TS]

  see if server-side Swift and server-side [TS]

  Kotlin if either of those really becomes [TS]

  a thing and if so do both of them become [TS]

  a real thing or is it just Swift or just [TS]

  Kotlin and you know we are there like [TS]

  cross compatibility libraries between [TS]

  the two I'm just curious to see where [TS]

  all this goes but I think this is a [TS]

  super positive move by Google cuz man [TS]

  the versions of Java that our team is [TS]

  using oh they're ugly man are they ugly [TS]

  so this website that compares Swift's [TS]

  and Colin I mean it's a useful thing to [TS]

  have and you know one of the things [TS]

  people are most interested about when [TS]

  they hear in your language is like what [TS]

  does it look like and so this website is [TS]

  kind of saying at the top level here's [TS]

  how they look similar and they do look [TS]

  very similar like what is the syntax so [TS]

  what are they use for defining these [TS]

  common constructs and everything as you [TS]

  scroll down this page you eventually get [TS]

  to things that I'm more interested in [TS]

  which is alright well so for the easy [TS]

  stuff like addy define a function in a [TS]

  variable and iterate over things and [TS]

  stuff like that yeah every language has [TS]

  those but you get to the things that [TS]

  define the language that have nothing to [TS]

  do with the syntax like the way swiftly [TS]

  --nz on protocols and how it uses them [TS]

  to implement its standard library and [TS]

  how you're expected to use them in your [TS]

  functions versus using inheritance and [TS]

  stuff like that and the struct versus [TS]

  class thing those are the things that [TS]

  make swift swift more you know [TS]

  practically speaking more than the than [TS]

  the syntax because the syntax is the [TS]

  thing people care about it's kind of [TS]

  like that's the cover of the book but [TS]

  what's in the book is what really makes [TS]

  it different and if you scroll on this [TS]

  thing you see the Colin is actually at [TS]

  least superficially similar to Swift in [TS]

  that it supports a lot of the same [TS]

  constructs as tuple return values it [TS]

  does have protocols it's difficult for [TS]

  me to tell without knowing anything [TS]

  about Colin other than reading up a web [TS]

  pages about it how deep the similarity [TS]

  goes in terms of the things I just said [TS]

  with like you know how how does it use [TS]

  protocols in you know how does it the [TS]

  language expect you sort of culturally [TS]

  and as expressed through its own [TS]

  standard library to use protocols versus [TS]

  inheritance does it have the struct [TS]

  versus class distinction with the same [TS]

  trade-offs of Swift has or does it not [TS]

  have that at all that's that's kind of [TS]

  the interesting question to me is you [TS]

  know how language looks is kind of good [TS]

  in that you'll be like okay I'm not [TS]

  scared of this it doesn't look like you [TS]

  know or lying or Haskell it looks like [TS]

  something I'm familiar with so I feel [TS]

  comfortable diving right in but then you [TS]

  know what does this language bring in [TS]

  terms of new constructs and new ways of [TS]

  programming and to that and the more the [TS]

  other things I've heard about Colin [TS]

  maybe Casey can correct me if I'm wrong [TS]

  is that it has some things in its tool [TS]

  chest or standard library or whatever [TS]

  the Swift doesn't yet [TS]

  in terms of concurrency is that the case [TS]

  I don't know if Kotlin has it but I can [TS]

  assure you that that Swift is not really [TS]

  yet I mean they swift as Grand Central [TS]

  Dispatch but it's not entirely the sort [TS]

  of thing that most people want like what [TS]

  most people want is more along the lines [TS]

  of dotnet say sink await and that [TS]

  certainly does not exist in Swift I I [TS]

  honestly don't know if it exists in [TS]

  common yeah but that's why I had heard [TS]

  that it had either some son-of-a sinks [TS]

  that the Kotlin has some kind of async [TS]

  stuff or maybe also co-routines like go [TS]

  or you know that it was ahead of Swift [TS]

  in the area of concurrency because they [TS]

  had they had chosen a solution for that [TS]

  and had undertaken it and so if ii still [TS]

  like it still swift knows that it needs [TS]

  to add it eventually and they don't have [TS]

  their the big solution for that and like [TS]

  i said of the meantime it's like use [TS]

  Grand Central Dispatch obviously Colin [TS]

  is not an option for Apple because Colin [TS]

  does not press Objective C Interop which [TS]

  is kind of important for Apple so yeah [TS]

  there's that and you know for our Google [TS]

  this is kind of weird that this is [TS]

  coming from a company that's outside [TS]

  Google like this is the move for Google [TS]

  to buy them now because they're the [TS]

  reason this can happen is a JVM based [TS]

  language and they have is you know you [TS]

  don't have to use Java there's lots of [TS]

  other language there on top of the JVM [TS]

  and here's one of them and they're [TS]

  Kotlin is reportedly really really good [TS]

  about Java compatibility because that's [TS]

  that's their equivalent of objective-c [TS]

  inter-app it's you know no you totally [TS]

  can use this with your java code and [TS]

  even the weird nitty-gritty corner case [TS]

  details will make that interrupt like [TS]

  perfect because that's that's this [TS]

  thing's whole purpose in life so it [TS]

  could be the Kotlin ends up being Google [TS]

  Swift do they just buy this company or [TS]

  whatever is an open standard just [TS]

  adopted whole-hog and say you know what [TS]

  stop like Apple has said stop using the [TS]

  other language use this one instead from [TS]

  now on all of our examples are all [TS]

  libraries all over everything will be in [TS]

  this Kotlin world I mean the two main [TS]

  barriers that one this company is not [TS]

  owned by Google yet and to the name is [TS]

  terrible letter enough k ot li n big [TS]

  thumbs down apologize that's someone's [TS]

  last name but when you're naming a [TS]

  computer language marketing counts and [TS]

  Swift is a better name it's an island [TS]

  off Russia I believe or something like [TS]

  that it's there is a thing or place that [TS]

  it is named after [TS]

  and I don't remember what it is and I [TS]

  mean it's okay on the plus side on the [TS]

  plus side it's a little easier to search [TS]

  for because there are a few things other [TS]

  than this island or whatever that are [TS]

  named Kotlin whereas there's a gazillion [TS]

  things that are named Swift or that have [TS]

  the word Swift in them not the least of [TS]

  which is Taylor Swift but um but I don't [TS]

  think it really rolls off the tongue [TS]

  either so I don't know win some lose [TS]

  some [TS]

  it's like Apple with the place names for [TS]

  Mac OS like it's good for you just this [TS]

  year's OS is named at this place in [TS]

  California you can get it with kind of [TS]

  vanity place name sort of regional [TS]

  things like that with yearly releases [TS]

  but if you're going to name a language [TS]

  probably not the best idea to name it [TS]

  after some obscure place that's like [TS]

  near the people who made it but what can [TS]

  you do it's their thing they name it [TS]

  right up until Google buys it and [TS]

  rebrands it indeed but now I'm really [TS]

  excited about this I think this is [TS]

  really awesome again I mean look it I [TS]

  forget what version of Java that our our [TS]

  team is using but it's at least a [TS]

  generation or two old and when you look [TS]

  at how they use closures and what they I [TS]

  think what they have to do is they have [TS]

  to make like an anonymous class and like [TS]

  implement a function on that class or [TS]

  something along those lines the [TS]

  particular details aren't really that [TS]

  important just the point is that to make [TS]

  a closure it is just comically just [TS]

  weird [TS]

  and in clunky and ridiculous and so even [TS]

  just getting a language that supports [TS]

  closures better I think is a huge win [TS]

  yes I know that more modern versions of [TS]

  Java do support this sort of thing but [TS]

  but again based off of what I see [TS]

  day-to-day it isn't a thing in our world [TS]

  in whatever version of Java we're [TS]

  running on and this is already a huge [TS]

  improvement [TS]

  I thought jumper programmers liked tons [TS]

  of complexity in making tons of classes [TS]

  isn't that the whole point of [TS]

  programming in Java they're like when [TS]

  their ID does that for them I just I'm [TS]

  to two or three characters and just [TS]

  autocomplete at all thanks to our three [TS]

  sponsors this week Squarespace mail [TS]

  route and fracture and we will see you [TS]

  next week [TS]

  now the show is over they didn't even [TS]

  mean to begin cuz it was accidental oh [TS]

  it was accidental John didn't do any [TS]

  research Marco and Casey wouldn't let [TS]

  him cuz it was accidental it was [TS]

  accidental and you can find the show [TS]

  notes at 80 P dot F M and if four into [TS]

  Twitter you can follow them at CAS II [TS]

  while ISS so that's Casey list and a are [TS]

  Co AR m and T Marco Arment SI r AC USA [TS]

  Syracuse [TS]

  you know I really hope that the new [TS]

  MacBook actually comes out soon like you [TS]

  know and and you know people are saying [TS]

  they might come out next week or two [TS]

  weeks from it everybody see I really [TS]

  hope that it does because I cannot wait [TS]

  to hear what you think of it after you [TS]

  use it for like a month [TS]

  I really am curious to hear this because [TS]

  you tend to have relatively similar [TS]

  needs as I do yeah and you know most [TS]

  most people who I know who have had the [TS]

  12-inch MacBook who have enjoyed it have [TS]

  had much lighter needs you know it's [TS]

  people who were who were writers or her [TS]

  doing like basic productivity tasks like [TS]

  email and stuff on it mostly I don't [TS]

  know a lot of programmers who used them [TS]

  and so I would I would love to hear your [TS]

  opinion of it when you when you get it [TS]

  and I can't say I'm rooting for you to [TS]

  hate it but I am it that might be [TS]

  interesting if you did I don't know I I [TS]

  just I really want to hear your opinion [TS]

  of it and that's assuming that they [TS]

  don't make like massive upgrades to it [TS]

  on this next version which I doubt they [TS]

  I'm expecting the same thing but with KB [TS]

  Lake well to be fair I don't think I [TS]

  would be doing very much development on [TS]

  it you know if I did it would just be [TS]

  for personal things like it's unlikely [TS]

  that I would do any real work and by [TS]

  that I mean work for my job work on it I [TS]

  would certainly write for my blog and [TS]

  that's just Visual Studio code which is [TS]

  electron based but unlike slack is [TS]

  actually well done and though and so III [TS]

  would do a little development sort of [TS]

  kind of in that regard but the [TS]

  likelihood of me running xcode for more [TS]

  than a few minutes to do like a quick [TS]

  fix or something like that is not [TS]

  terribly likely so i understand what [TS]

  you're saying and by and large I agree [TS]

  with you and I am also interested in it [TS]

  but I don't think it's a perfect apples [TS]

  to apples comparison because I will [TS]

  probably not be doing much quote unquote [TS]

  real work on it [TS]

  so eventually assume my work ever buys a [TS]

  new line of apples laptops and doesn't [TS]

  continue to buy the 2015's all three of [TS]

  us will have daily access to a Mac with [TS]

  the new low profile keyboard and that [TS]

  will [TS]

  be interesting test case one I guess for [TS]

  reliability well speaking of reliability [TS]

  I just learned that the Mac the 2015 [TS]

  MacBook Pro I have a work has the screen [TS]

  delamination problem Oh like the first I [TS]

  thought it was I thought it was like [TS]

  someone had rubbed off the anti glare [TS]

  surface but now seeing Gruber post [TS]

  pictures of his issue and hearing other [TS]

  people talk about it that it's a [TS]

  delamination thing which in theory I [TS]

  could just go again replace but I'm not [TS]

  going to because it's not my computer [TS]

  and I don't want to be without it at [TS]

  work but then all three of us having the [TS]

  keyboard we'll see where we all end up [TS]

  with in terms of liking or disliking the [TS]

  feel of the keyboard we'd have heard a [TS]

  lot of reports from people saying that [TS]

  they really loved it and that the old [TS]

  keyboards feel like junk now and I feel [TS]

  like that could definitely be a thing [TS]

  but then also reliability if all three [TS]

  of us get it and within a couple months [TS]

  all three of us have keyboard problems [TS]

  that caused them to be repaired again [TS]

  perhaps not statistically significant [TS]

  even though that phrase means nothing [TS]

  and then with no anything but anyway it [TS]

  is something versus if it's just Marco [TS]

  that has the problem in our keys work [TS]

  fine for year after year yeah I mean if [TS]

  ends up being the case and if yours are [TS]

  perfect then I will gladly go in and get [TS]

  mine serviced and not complain about it [TS]

  anymore after well for maybe we should [TS]

  also use like outdoors where it's hot [TS]

  I'm in case you can do that down there [TS]

  in the south but like if you're gonna [TS]

  take your beach and stuff I'm just using [TS]

  mine in that condition office I'm never [TS]

  gonna run into whatever heat expansion [TS]

  thing you're running into what seemed [TS]

  that it was like in the 70s it wasn't [TS]

  even that hot but but what happened like [TS]

  when I when I first the problem like [TS]

  just the Oh key was stuck down and then [TS]

  I eventually dislodged it and it kind of [TS]

  you know stuck back up what when I [TS]

  realize it was a bigger problem was when [TS]

  I was sitting you know in this like you [TS]

  know 75 degree you know environment [TS]

  typing away all of a sudden lots of keys [TS]

  started misbehaving and feeling weird [TS]

  sounding different and clicking weirdly [TS]

  and being less reliable and that's when [TS]

  I realized this is not just one speck of [TS]

  dust under one key this is like many [TS]

  keys suddenly misbehaving and then since [TS]

  that day it hasn't happened again so [TS]

  like this is not just a dust thing this [TS]

  is this is an actual flaw in the way [TS]

  these things react to something that [TS]

  seems like it might be heat but I don't [TS]

  know it's it's really I hope this is a [TS]

  very thing that I can just get fixed [TS]

  once but I just I don't have high hopes [TS]