The Talk Show

190: ‘Anything Luxury’, With Special Guest Ben Thompson


  lots to talk about what do you want to [TS]

  start with you wanna start with this [TS]

  Microsoft build keynote yeah it was it [TS]

  was interesting as you watch it now I [TS]

  didn't watch it I was going to whoever [TS]

  uh yeah sorry I failed to value out [TS]

  there uh it was it was good uh it was [TS]

  funny I really liked it the as I was [TS]

  listening to it he like there was a very [TS]

  much a sort of coherent vision you know [TS]

  that took the idea of you know Microsoft [TS]

  but you know by necessity has to kind of [TS]

  you know weep over the the mobile sort [TS]

  of area and to extent they certainly [TS]

  have in the cloud but kind of painting a [TS]

  vision beyond that and kind of from a [TS]

  big picture what I liked best is that at [TS]

  previous builds there's always two [TS]

  keynotes yeah and the first day is [TS]

  usually sort of the windows keynote and [TS]

  the second day is the azure keynote and [TS]

  this year it's the opposite as er is the [TS]

  first day in Windows the second day and [TS]

  I think that's appropriate because [TS]

  that's realistically where Microsoft's [TS]

  growth and opportunities are so so from [TS]

  that perspective I you know I enjoyed it [TS]

  I think the the problem though is all [TS]

  that stuff on the edge Mike I'll talk [TS]

  about building a sort of thing from the [TS]

  from the quality of the edge like they [TS]

  don't have very many edge end points and [TS]

  that continues to be a problem hmm [TS]

  edge being the devices that people use [TS]

  is that what you mean yeah yeah exactly [TS]

  I mean even on in not just mobile [TS]

  devices but also sort of on computers I [TS]

  mean the big computer the big criticism [TS]

  of always have for Microsoft and even [TS]

  under saturated data is they've done a [TS]

  great job of sort of you know locking in [TS]

  the folks that they've always had but if [TS]

  you're a new company starting today [TS]

  which piece of Microsoft software are [TS]

  you going to buy and why and Microsoft [TS]

  doesn't have a very good answer for that [TS]

  question yeah that's a very good point [TS]

  I would buy none yeah you right I mean [TS]

  it you would probably buy Excel right [TS]

  yeah I have office just e5 actually use [TS]

  that for for my email in it in part [TS]

  because I vastly prefer using email on [TS]

  an offline client even if it's outlook [TS]

  as opposed to the problem Gmail is I [TS]

  have it I have an assistant so I have [TS]

  some shared mailboxes [TS]

  and it only supports shared mailboxes [TS]

  through the online interface so that's [TS]

  obviously the reason why I use obviously [TS]

  five but the uh but yeah but I mean [TS]

  beyond that I used Google Docs for a [TS]

  year for you or Google Apps I should say [TS]

  irreverence called for for the first [TS]

  several years and there's times I miss [TS]

  it times I don't yeah but but [TS]

  realistically this it's not really if it [TS]

  wasn't for my own personal I can choose [TS]

  software based my own personal foibles [TS]

  if I were an administrator sir Ector II [TS]

  was a larger company I'm sure I would be [TS]

  on on Google [TS]

  I mean I'm obviously an edge case in [TS]

  that I'd I've lived a Windows free life [TS]

  my entire life but off the top of my [TS]

  head the only Microsoft software I can [TS]

  think that I use regularly is right now [TS]

  Skype I don't think I use anything else [TS]

  I haven't had office having a Microsoft [TS]

  Office and oh my god at least 10 years [TS]

  and Lee I don't even yeah late I don't [TS]

  know if I ever even used a Mac os10 ah [TS]

  you're probably better off his forehead [TS]

  over that case but but I mean if you use [TS]

  Excel like for real [TS]

  there it which I rarely do but but the [TS]

  occasional times I do it's like there's [TS]

  numbers is not really competitive if you [TS]

  want to just display stuff like make a [TS]

  little chart numbers is actually [TS]

  arguably better and easier and certainly [TS]

  you know Excel make some really ugly [TS]

  charts but if you there are some things [TS]

  I occasionally do on on Excel that I [TS]

  mean it numbers just it's not numbers is [TS]

  what it is like it serves its role well [TS]

  it's not an excel competitor though I [TS]

  don't know I have nothing but good thing [TS]

  I haven't used Excel in a long time but [TS]

  I was never a serious spreadsheet person [TS]

  but when I've seen like serious [TS]

  spreadsheets it's it's very impressive [TS]

  piece of software yeah it's kind of like [TS]

  the I mean people have made this this [TS]

  this point before but it's very true it [TS]

  really is sort of the programming [TS]

  language for normal people yes like I [TS]

  mean if you think about it people are [TS]

  bend it to do all kinds of crazy things [TS]

  in part because it's offering sort of in [TS]

  place computation in a way that is [TS]

  accessible for for you know sort of [TS]

  normal people who don't know how to code [TS]

  it is basic out or whatever it's clever [TS]

  chewy back hey remember it's called [TS]

  vbscript v yeah whatever [TS]

  scripting languages so you can do actual [TS]

  sort of programming which again is still [TS]

  different than you know still pretty [TS]

  basic but even just using a cell you [TS]

  know equals this cell plus that cell [TS]

  divided by that's like--that's [TS]

  programming and and in that respect it's [TS]

  even more impressive when you think of [TS]

  it that in that light even back in 1991 [TS]

  when I was a freshman in college for the [TS]

  as a freshman I ended up switching to [TS]

  computer science the next year but as a [TS]

  freshman I was an engineering major and [TS]

  there was a mandatory like intro to [TS]

  programming course but not it again this [TS]

  wasn't the computer science this was you [TS]

  know and it was all bit was ridiculous [TS]

  for me I mean I was like a in like the [TS]

  Donlin on the computer programming team [TS]

  in high school it could be I was I was [TS]

  it was great for me I was the type of [TS]

  student you don't know if you were the [TS]

  same but when I got a course like that I [TS]

  didn't try to place out of it I was just [TS]

  like oh this is great I'm to do any work [TS]

  but if we ended up I think like second [TS]

  half of the thing was like an intro to [TS]

  Pascal which dates me and we were still [TS]

  learning Pascal but I think the first [TS]

  like month of the course was all spent [TS]

  in Excel it was sort of like Excel was [TS]

  the this is how you learn you know learn [TS]

  the program and I think oh that's [TS]

  interesting [TS]

  just trying to build the mindset not [TS]

  necessarily build exactly that makes a [TS]

  ton of sense yeah and in honestly going [TS]

  through life I bet more engineers do [TS]

  programming in Excel than writing source [TS]

  code I mean at least in some ways um I [TS]

  think the other thing that Excel has as [TS]

  a and all spreadsheets but the thing [TS]

  that they have that really makes them is [TS]

  so much more approachable for people who [TS]

  think they can't program but are [TS]

  actually doing you know creating your [TS]

  own custom programmatic things is it [TS]

  makes data structures completely visual [TS]

  and there's yeah so there's this entire [TS]

  layer of abstraction of creating a data [TS]

  structure that is completely removed if [TS]

  you just see it and so much data [TS]

  actually fits to conceptually in a grid [TS]

  and you don't even know it you don't [TS]

  realize that as you're setting up this [TS]

  two-dimensional and you know I know you [TS]

  can do three dimensional stuff too but [TS]

  you know even if it's just to do a [TS]

  simple little two-dimensional [TS]

  spreadsheet [TS]

  you're creating a data structure but you [TS]

  don't even you know you're not really [TS]

  thinking about it that way yeah I think [TS]

  that's exactly it and you get and you [TS]

  can visualize you know you can literally [TS]

  visualize like how the numbers are [TS]

  moving around and moving through [TS]

  equations in you know like you're you're [TS]

  debugging you don't even realize you are [TS]

  but but that's exactly what's going on [TS]

  right anyway nothing but good things to [TS]

  say about excel so what else happened at [TS]

  this keynote what are they talking about [TS]

  what's the big what are people need to [TS]

  know about where Microsoft is is wants [TS]

  people to go and build it for those who [TS]

  don't know it's their developer [TS]

  conference so it's you know it's not [TS]

  necessarily consumer focus but it's what [TS]

  they want people developers to do yeah [TS]

  well I think that's that's part of the [TS]

  point is there really wasn't anything [TS]

  for consumers in in this at all I mean [TS]

  there was they had this or Cortana [TS]

  skills kit you know which which it would [TS]

  be you know a Dallas to sort of the [TS]

  Amazon echo skills things like that they [TS]

  have a new database service for Azure [TS]

  called cosmos DB which is very [TS]

  interesting but again speaking of data [TS]

  structure is not really something that [TS]

  people you know most people would think [TS]

  about or or or care about and where as [TS]

  tomorrow all right [TS]

  which I was yet tomorrow I always try to [TS]

  speak in terms of us time but even when [TS]

  I would it's not but tonight my time [TS]

  tomorrow they will have I think more [TS]

  consumer facing stuff but again I think [TS]

  it's it's really emblematic of the shift [TS]

  in the company that that is on day two [TS]

  and to me that's that's kind of the [TS]

  biggest high-level takeaway yeah it's [TS]

  they're sort of doing on their own [TS]

  volition you know under Satya Nadella [TS]

  what some people ten years ago add or I [TS]

  guess more than 10 years ago at this [TS]

  point I had argued that should be done [TS]

  by law which is break break the windows [TS]

  division off into its own subsidiary or [TS]

  separate company or something like that [TS]

  yep you know like I think that that let [TS]

  Microsoft stay focused on the future and [TS]

  let Windows sort of ride out the you [TS]

  know the role that it has to play is [TS]

  sort of legacy infrastructure yeah I [TS]

  think that's exactly that's exactly [TS]

  right and it's I didn't think they I [TS]

  didn't think they were capable of it [TS]

  like Windows was so long you know had so [TS]

  much gravitational pole in [TS]

  the company mej extent that at one of [TS]

  these keynotes a while ago like Asher [TS]

  was renamed Windows Azure even though it [TS]

  wasn't really Windows but but yeah [TS]

  that's a great point know here one of my [TS]

  favorite sort of little details here is [TS]

  they announced theirs now you could [TS]

  access the command line in this sort of [TS]

  your Azure dashboard or whatever it is [TS]

  like through web browser or on a mobile [TS]

  app and it supports bash today and [TS]

  PowerShell is coming PowerShell is the [TS]

  command line program for Windows and to [TS]

  me that that's that really that shows it [TS]

  right which one do they support first [TS]

  they support bash because what actually [TS]

  matters for most cloud applications is [TS]

  what most developers are used to is you [TS]

  know Linux and and the linux shell and [TS]

  that's where and so that's what they're [TS]

  serving first and the Windows part is [TS]

  coming but it will come it will come [TS]

  soon yeah I think it isn't PowerShell in [TS]

  a nutshell like there was the das prompt [TS]

  and PowerShell is sort of them okay we [TS]

  want a command line terminal type thing [TS]

  but das this piece of crap so here's [TS]

  something you know modern and and at [TS]

  least maybe not modeled after UNIX [TS]

  shells but at least as powerful as UNIX [TS]

  shell yeah I mean it's it's it's a it's [TS]

  a whole thing I mean it's you know it's [TS]

  a shell and a whole Wincott us its own [TS]

  scripting language and it's not actually [TS]

  open source lis or not but it yeah it [TS]

  was released in 2006 I believe I'm just [TS]

  looking it up so I mean it's it's very [TS]

  far removed from the sort of DOS days I [TS]

  mean it's a proper shell like if it's [TS]

  used very heavily by system [TS]

  administrators and and folks that are [TS]

  managing computers and things like that [TS]

  it's used on the server so it mean it's [TS]

  a proper shell it's but it's not you [TS]

  know it's different then as as one would [TS]

  expect it's different than than bash can [TS]

  I just as an aside it's so funny because [TS]

  I didn't think we'd be talking about [TS]

  shells but I do you ever use use command [TS]

  line on Mac os10 you use it sometimes [TS]

  right yeah rarely I have a couple [TS]

  servers that did not my not destroy your [TS]

  server that's managed but um I have a [TS]

  few other servers that I do stuff on and [TS]

  I use it for that but I rarely I don't [TS]

  do much scripting on on my [TS]

  computer do you do you care what shall [TS]

  you use no I don't care at all I use it [TS]

  I use it very rarely I've I've used the [TS]

  UNIX shell since at least 1990 - that's [TS]

  when ice when I switch to computer [TS]

  science at Drexel and I've you know I [TS]

  mean I'm um I know enough to get [TS]

  whatever I need to do done but I've [TS]

  never enjoyed it never really and I [TS]

  never really liked writing shell scripts [TS]

  and so if I ever had anything that you [TS]

  most people would write a shell script [TS]

  once I found out about parole I just [TS]

  wrote everything in Perl and just [TS]

  treated Perl if I needed to as my shell [TS]

  scripting language so I never really got [TS]

  deep roots and I know I think I think [TS]

  Mac os10 used to when it first shipped [TS]

  was using tcsh as the shell or something [TS]

  I don't know and at some point it [TS]

  switched to bash because bash sort of [TS]

  become is like the most popular modern [TS]

  scripting language because Linux uses [TS]

  that I think but I never had deep roots [TS]

  like it was never like like people get [TS]

  tied up and they have like these shelves [TS]

  or files you know the what do you call [TS]

  your profile where you've got all these [TS]

  aliases and all this stuff set up so [TS]

  that you can't really switch shells very [TS]

  easily because you'd have to rewrite it [TS]

  all [TS]

  so anyway recently I switched my shell [TS]

  err on my Mac's to fish have you heard [TS]

  about this shell I've heard you chatting [TS]

  about it but it's no I it's fascinating [TS]

  and I think anybody who has deep roots [TS]

  into a UNIX shell is not going to switch [TS]

  but it's a like a new shell it's you [TS]

  know something that this guy Peter a man [TS]

  made he's a engineer at Apple this isn't [TS]

  an apple project it's something he did [TS]

  on the side but it's amazing and I thing [TS]

  I like about it is it's like completely [TS]

  logical in terms of how you do stuff and [TS]

  it doesn't have any kind of it by [TS]

  separating itself from from the history [TS]

  of UNIX shells it breaks a bunch of [TS]

  things that other UNIX shells all do but [TS]

  it like just for one thing one thing [TS]

  that's so nice is that instead of [TS]

  spewing a whole bunch of like dot files [TS]

  you know the UNIX way of making a file [TS]

  quote-unquote invisible a start the name [TS]

  of the dot which is [TS]

  so gross that we're still using that but [TS]

  they did they had these you end up with [TS]

  like six of these files in your home [TS]

  folder for each shell that you use [TS]

  because in Iran they don't have names [TS]

  that make any sense and no they drive me [TS]

  up the wall I know exactly we talk about [TS]

  right it doesn't make any sense at all [TS]

  with fish you still have it you know a [TS]

  dot file but it's it's a folder which is [TS]

  it called it's called but I'm really [TS]

  exciting tonight aren't I [TS]

  I should do this later and I love that [TS]

  it's called I think it's called like dot [TS]

  config or something like that but [TS]

  there's one it's a it makes it folder [TS]

  instead of a file and it's just one [TS]

  folder called dot config and inside [TS]

  there is is where everything else goes [TS]

  so you just there's like a folder in dot [TS]

  config that says fish and then inside [TS]

  that folder is all officious stuff so if [TS]

  other utilities use this convention [TS]

  everything could go nice and neatly into [TS]

  one folder called config anyway it's [TS]

  really neat I'll put a link in the show [TS]

  notes to fish it's really I think it's [TS]

  really neat so oh that reminds me what [TS]

  is the last time I was on um 2000 [TS]

  January 2017 looks like and we talked [TS]

  about the Mac a little bit then and I I [TS]

  do have to say I think pretty much that [TS]

  that episode holds up I think pretty [TS]

  well after the after the the news that's [TS]

  come out about the Mac Pro and things [TS]

  like that like I think our general [TS]

  presumption was that there was a screw [TS]

  up they wand update it but couldn't and [TS]

  they're not abandoning the platform and [TS]

  and it was just a screw-up and I think [TS]

  that's basically what ended up would end [TS]

  up happening so that I'm glad we uh glad [TS]

  we got that one right yeah I think so [TS]

  too [TS]

  anyway before I glued fish I'll just say [TS]

  this if you're a nerd and nerdy enough [TS]

  to use the terminal but you've somehow [TS]

  never gotten attached to bash or [TS]

  seashell or Z shell or any of those [TS]

  things you should give fish a try it's [TS]

  really easy to install [TS]

  through homebrew and I like it so much [TS]

  more than any shell I've ever tried [TS]

  because it's just somehow makes sense it [TS]

  makes sense that it comes from somebody [TS]

  who works at Apple [TS]

  it sort of makes sense in the way Apple [TS]

  software does right that's what made me [TS]

  think of it is the idea of like change [TS]

  like one even having access to a shell [TS]

  and being able to change it and all the [TS]

  things you can do through a shell like [TS]

  that's it's it's a thing you do on [TS]

  computers which is that I start remember [TS]

  why I went back to that last episode but [TS]

  yeah that's why I mean it's a great [TS]

  example yeah it does things like it has [TS]

  like if you want to change the color the [TS]

  syntax colouring for the shell like for [TS]

  which like a command is this color the [TS]

  arguments are this color the outputs [TS]

  this color in error is this color when [TS]

  you config you don't have to just type [TS]

  in a file you can do something and it [TS]

  opens a little web local web browser [TS]

  window and so you can visually pick the [TS]

  colors and see actually see the colors [TS]

  as you add to them it's oh nice amazing [TS]

  stuff it's so anyway it's really cool so [TS]

  anyway PowerShell it's is coming soon it [TS]

  and bash is already is the default and [TS]

  first available thing that support for [TS]

  this for this dashboard sort of [TS]

  interface for the other thing I saw it [TS]

  was announced was I forget what they [TS]

  call it but whatever Microsoft version [TS]

  of Xcode is what's it called virtual [TS]

  studio visual studio whatever the visual [TS]

  studio universal studio is now I know [TS]

  it's not wasn't a surprise but it's [TS]

  there's a version of it for Mac now [TS]

  which is crazy yep and they did a demo [TS]

  and it was more like oh we're doing a [TS]

  demo on a Mac it wasn't like a we're [TS]

  definitely this program but there's [TS]

  actually when they were doing the I [TS]

  think is when they're demoing the shell [TS]

  and it was on a map yeah [TS]

  and that it you know it it's of a piece [TS]

  it's the exact same you know two sides [TS]

  of the same coin with the windows [TS]

  keynote being on day two the entire idea [TS]

  that if you're developing on Windows [TS]

  server side technologies the assumption [TS]

  that you're developing with a Windows [TS]

  client and with your hands on the [TS]

  keyboard is no longer there like they're [TS]

  completely come you know committed and [TS]

  realized that but I don't know if it's a [TS]

  majority of developers but certainly an [TS]

  enormous chunk of them are using Mac's [TS]

  as their client whether they're writing [TS]

  Mac software or not even if they're just [TS]

  doing like web development or Windows [TS]

  development or something like that [TS]

  or saw anything server-side I think [TS]

  there's an enormous chunk of them who [TS]

  are using MacBooks yep [TS]

  no yep and and the platforms that [TS]

  they're developing for um you know yes [TS]

  on PC it's still meal windows still as [TS]

  it you know dominant more the dominant [TS]

  share but pcs aren't a piece species are [TS]

  the fast I mean in a very real way or in [TS]

  you know to a topic I'm sure we'll get [TS]

  to there they were never even a thing so [TS]

  and that's that's the reality that [TS]

  Microsoft has to deal with for and to in [TS]

  and I think they by and large are again [TS]

  that doesn't mean that they're out of [TS]

  the woods because they still have this [TS]

  stuff to actually reach consumers [TS]

  actually get in front of them both in [TS]

  terms both in that applies to business [TS]

  just as much as applies to to end-users [TS]

  but at least they're you know not stuck [TS]

  focused on focused on the past yeah yeah [TS]

  so now we're in unusual how things [TS]

  change situation where Microsoft is the [TS]

  company that's flexible about what what [TS]

  machines people are using to develop [TS]

  against their technologies and apples [TS]

  the company that makes you develop on a [TS]

  Mac to write for their phone OS right [TS]

  exactly exactly [TS]

  not that I blame Apple for that might [TS]

  have come out as me you know blaming [TS]

  them I to makes profiles again but uh [TS]

  it's just it's just a funny situation [TS]

  yeah I mean the apples the company with [TS]

  an operating system was such over well [TS]

  at overwhelming market share that they [TS]

  can compel developers to buy a machine [TS]

  that they otherwise wouldn't buy just to [TS]

  do development for it yeah it's it it [TS]

  it's hard to especially if you were [TS]

  following Apple I'm sure it's harder for [TS]

  you than for me I mean back in I was [TS]

  following Apple that I used when I [TS]

  wasn't using one and to really [TS]

  appreciate the extent to which they are [TS]

  not the underdog [TS]

  at all it like it's it's easy easier the [TS]

  situation to change on the ground before [TS]

  it's before changes sort of your mental [TS]

  state and I think that's a proper app [TS]

  that was an app prom for Apple [TS]

  internally to like you [TS]

  you act and behave changes when you're [TS]

  when you're dominant as opposed to when [TS]

  you're you know the sort of scrappy [TS]

  scrappy underdog yeah um yeah totally so [TS]

  what else is going on at surface or not [TS]

  surface had build you know that's a [TS]

  conference I was I was at the one time I [TS]

  was in a video yes that's right uh feels [TS]

  like a long time ago well it's it's I [TS]

  mean it's crazy I'll lightning ahead Way [TS]

  was a while ago it has to been what four [TS]

  four or five years ago three years ago I [TS]

  think I think was wrong I think so that [TS]

  was somebody's I thought I was still in [TS]

  the states when that happened but yeah I [TS]

  think it was three years ago [TS]

  but I could be wrong but long story [TS]

  short for those who don't remember this [TS]

  was when I was working with Brent [TS]

  Simmons and Dave wish because they we [TS]

  called her social q-branch we had her [TS]

  app vesper and we did the sinking our [TS]

  own sinking back-end for various reasons [TS]

  but we built it on I guess I think we [TS]

  were there right we were doing it at the [TS]

  time when they called it Windows Azure [TS]

  and they made like they made us one of [TS]

  the like examples in a little video that [TS]

  they showed on the in the keynote flew [TS]

  us out there and everything was kind of [TS]

  nice kind of weird they have yeah they [TS]

  have this uh they have a real-time [TS]

  translator for Microsoft PowerPoint [TS]

  that's kind of nifty so when you can be [TS]

  presenting and it will be show like [TS]

  real-time translation of the of the UH [TS]

  yeah so that's kind interesting but [TS]

  again I mean it's it was mostly like it [TS]

  was it was mostly all back and stuff so [TS]

  which which which is fine I think as far [TS]

  as consumer-facing stuff you know the [TS]

  one today is probably going to be more [TS]

  more interesting but then again they [TS]

  just announced the the windows s and the [TS]

  new laptop so a couple weeks ago so I [TS]

  think they're disposed there's really [TS]

  might be a Cortana speaker like a like [TS]

  an echo type device yeah at which but [TS]

  again you know I mean actually getting [TS]

  customers to get customers hands is [TS]

  gonna is going to be the challenge I [TS]

  guess the reason I was going to say I [TS]

  gave somebody who observes Apple it's [TS]

  weird because I [TS]

  I have muscle memory you know and it's [TS]

  weird to see a company that's so on [TS]

  Apple like like it's baffling to me that [TS]

  they would hold an event a week before [TS]

  their big developer conference right or [TS]

  they would talk about a new operating [TS]

  system and unveil these new products [TS]

  like why wouldn't you do that in the [TS]

  keynote but I'm guessing you know that [TS]

  the keynote this morning ran long and [TS]

  then the Windows one tomorrow they're [TS]

  their keynotes already already run long [TS]

  right I mean today was really I mean it [TS]

  was much more of yeah it was pretty [TS]

  hardcore like back-end development or [TS]

  wine a business application sort of [TS]

  stuff I mean it wasn't a really consumer [TS]

  facing thing at all it not even on the [TS]

  slightest and yeah maybe they could have [TS]

  announced the the things tomorrow but I [TS]

  think yeah there's a very queer sort of [TS]

  bifurcation and I think you've nailed it [TS]

  before what Windows is sort of its own [TS]

  thing particularly the consumer facing [TS]

  side of Windows and I think they there's [TS]

  relatively free rein to do what they can [TS]

  to you know support and earn customers [TS]

  but that doesn't necessarily really have [TS]

  much impact particularly from a [TS]

  strategic perspective on the rest of [TS]

  Microsoft which is you know really the [TS]

  future of the company and that's [TS]

  probably this is probably a good example [TS]

  of that [TS]

  it was weird I know today's build they [TS]

  move it around I think all that I think [TS]

  they often move it around but this Sears [TS]

  is in Seattle when I went two or three [TS]

  years ago three four years ago whenever [TS]

  it was it was in San Francisco in [TS]

  Moscone which only added to this sort of [TS]

  we were feeling bizarro [TS]

  like I was in a bizarro developer [TS]

  bizarro WWDC because they even had the [TS]

  keynote at third floor you know we wrap [TS]

  what Apple always calls the room [TS]

  Presidio you know that the those big [TS]

  convention spaces are sort of like [TS]

  modular you know there's walls that can [TS]

  be moved around to change the shape and [TS]

  make room slightly bigger or smaller but [TS]

  the thing that Microsoft did what and [TS]

  I've seen so many keynotes in that room [TS]

  because Macworld Expo used to have [TS]

  keynotes [TS]

  in the same room WWDC every year I guess [TS]

  those are the two things but they're [TS]

  Macworld Expo and W [TS]

  Sika notes in that room and apples [TS]

  configuration of the room is almost [TS]

  always the same it's a very if you'd [TS]

  almost think that it the room always [TS]

  looks like that but it's actually like [TS]

  an apple setup like it when WWDC has [TS]

  done all that everything in there is out [TS]

  and the thing that Microsoft did was [TS]

  they had their stage along what in [TS]

  Apple's configuration is the side like [TS]

  Apple sits the room with the stage in [TS]

  the front and the room goes back long [TS]

  Microsoft set it up said that the stage [TS]

  was wide and the room wasn't as deep and [TS]

  they site in a way that that made sense [TS]

  even though it made more people [TS]

  everybody was closer to the stage and [TS]

  Microsoft's configuration but people [TS]

  were further from the center if you [TS]

  didn't have a center seat and they made [TS]

  up for that by having huge screens that [TS]

  were just showed the same instead of [TS]

  having one big screen that shows [TS]

  something they had like a wall of [TS]

  screens that all showed the same thing [TS]

  over and over again and it just weirded [TS]

  me out it was just guess it's you know [TS]

  it's like coming home and somebody has [TS]

  moved all of the furniture like [TS]

  everything is the same except they've [TS]

  rotated every room in your house by 90 [TS]

  degrees that would be weird uh but yet [TS]

  no no no Moscone keynote again this year [TS]

  I mean right well they've been in the [TS]

  the what is it the Billy Billy Graham [TS]

  auditorium oh is that what it's called I [TS]

  uh something like that I don't think I [TS]

  mean they might never do Apple might [TS]

  never do a Moscone right I was gonna say [TS]

  yeah what might be uh which is fine he [TS]

  wasn't it wasn't the greatest I didn't [TS]

  like the I'm not a big fan of the Apple [TS]

  set up in Moscow nee I'm not either [TS]

  really I don't have anything against it [TS]

  but I thought the Microsoft setup was [TS]

  actually very nice I've it worked very [TS]

  well and I felt like everybody got to [TS]

  you couldn't really see may not be able [TS]

  to see the actual people but if you know [TS]

  I feel like if you were sitting seated [TS]

  along the side you had a much bigger [TS]

  screen in front of you than you get [TS]

  seated in the back in Moscow me an apple [TS]

  setup right exactly yeah I don't think [TS]

  Apple Apple might never have an event in [TS]

  San Francisco again you never say never [TS]

  I mean who knows but I because I feel [TS]

  like for their smaller events they're [TS]

  going to have them at their headquarters [TS]

  in the Steve Jobs theater [TS]

  right I don't think you name the theater [TS]

  Steve Jobs theater unless you intend to [TS]

  use it quite a bit to unveil new [TS]

  products right like I'm sure they're you [TS]

  know have you been to the new campus you [TS]

  know I've never I don't even know where [TS]

  it is I was asking about it when I was [TS]

  out there for the Mac Pro summit [TS]

  whatever you want to round table [TS]

  discussion it was a I guess it just [TS]

  isn't close I don't know to be I just [TS]

  worked there [TS]

  so I one of the buildings that was that [TS]

  was torn down so I definitely know where [TS]

  it is be guys it's it's it's like [TS]

  another exit on the freeway from from [TS]

  where the current campus is right and I [TS]

  did you could drive there through [TS]

  through through city roads but yeah it's [TS]

  a little bit of a hike it on the other [TS]

  side of the freeway so it just wasn't [TS]

  convenient and I didn't have a car so [TS]

  what wasn't like I was going to take an [TS]

  uber to go look at a construction site I [TS]

  mean those fly overs that people publish [TS]

  from those drones are probably better [TS]

  than what you'd get looking at the [TS]

  ground from the outside yep yeah I think [TS]

  so I mean maybe uh I mean I imagine the [TS]

  ID well I guess we'll see with the [TS]

  iPhone with the iPhone announcement but [TS]

  they did that they did that in San Jose [TS]

  also not last year but for the when they [TS]

  did the watch the watch unveiling was [TS]

  was in San Jose uh yeah where was that I [TS]

  forget where it was I don't think it was [TS]

  San Jose no it was at the the watch [TS]

  unveiling was at the the College in [TS]

  Cupertino [TS]

  oh is that was that Cupertino I I hope [TS]

  it wasn't it's like some that I forget [TS]

  the name of the college but De Anza or [TS]

  something I I forget what the hell of [TS]

  this but it was not know the one that [TS]

  was in San Jose was an iPad event like [TS]

  in 2011 I think or 2012 I don't know it [TS]

  was right before Scott Forstall got [TS]

  fired how was the how was the the Danza [TS]

  auditorium or whatever it was I was all [TS]

  right it wasn't it wasn't anything to [TS]

  write home about that was the one where [TS]

  Apple build a big mysterious white box [TS]

  out front right right right and that was [TS]

  the end ecology of the ends is that what [TS]

  it is DeAnza College [TS]

  yep um it was okay uh I'm not surprised [TS]

  that they haven't been back since I [TS]

  don't think it was great I think the one [TS]

  thing people don't seem to understand is [TS]

  that this Steve Jobs theater is not that [TS]

  big either like there's no way they [TS]

  can't have like a WWE seeking out there [TS]

  some people have speculated that you [TS]

  know maybe this year they'll secretly [TS]

  bus everybody to the new campus to have [TS]

  the keynote there or something that's [TS]

  like--that's that no you can't but it [TS]

  can't bus 5,000 people there but B it's [TS]

  not a 5,000 person auditorium I don't [TS]

  know what this evening and see that they [TS]

  don't want 5,000 people writing her on [TS]

  that campus right I don't think yeah I [TS]

  don't think they want people on their [TS]

  campus well be the old the old uh the [TS]

  old one town uh what's called God [TS]

  yeah Tony Hall that was tiny that was [TS]

  turn it was like but I said I'm sure [TS]

  yeah that makes sense though I suppose [TS]

  the I bet WABC will end up back in San [TS]

  Francisco we'll see I'll probably see [TS]

  how it goes this year and then because [TS]

  the reason it's in San Jose this year is [TS]

  because Moscone Center construction I [TS]

  don't know what I don't believe that [TS]

  I really don't what well basically all [TS]

  of the but everyone is not in Moscone by [TS]

  and large like how they have there been [TS]

  any big events there I mean I know only [TS]

  part of Muskaan's are construction but I [TS]

  don't think Apple is the only one to let [TS]

  their stuff on their schedule if you [TS]

  look it's so north and south Moscone [TS]

  north and south the big like the expo [TS]

  hall ones are closed and they're ripping [TS]

  up the street i if there's an argument [TS]

  for it it's the fact that they've got [TS]

  the street ripped up I guess that's [TS]

  Howard Street is all ripped up for the [TS]

  north and south expansion but Moscone [TS]

  West is still open and is not being [TS]

  renovated and I've you know before Apple [TS]

  made this announcement you could look on [TS]

  the schedule in their world you know [TS]

  there was like one open week in June but [TS]

  the otherwise there's stuff in Moscone [TS]

  week Moscone West all the time I could [TS]

  be wrong yeah not are you right I don't [TS]

  know I mean who cares if the streets [TS]

  ripped up I've seen people say well the [TS]

  streets all ripped up oh who gives a [TS]

  crap [TS]

  I don't know you'd say nobody's done [TS]

  like everybody's driving down Howard [TS]

  Street to get to WWDC I think if Apple [TS]

  wanted to have it at Moscone West this [TS]

  year they would have [TS]

  I think there's other reasons you know [TS]

  whether they got a better deal whether [TS]

  they really you know I I do think I [TS]

  think Apple is if you can put a [TS]

  personality on a company there are a [TS]

  homebody company they they don't that [TS]

  are not a San Francisco company I know [TS]

  they have a couple of offices there but [TS]

  you know they really are at as a company [TS]

  they're at home on their campus in [TS]

  Cupertino and I feel like they being [TS]

  closer to home is better for them yeah [TS]

  no question I mean just being in the [TS]

  valley I mean they're they're not it's [TS]

  it's own insular sort of culture like [TS]

  it's much less sort of interspersed I've [TS]

  obviously an employee level that's on [TS]

  the solicit case but especially once you [TS]

  get more into senior management I mean [TS]

  it's it's it's own world like it's in [TS]

  the same geographic area but the rest of [TS]

  the valley I think is much more [TS]

  intertwined with Google and there's much [TS]

  more of a sort of back and forth in in [TS]

  that perspective when it comes to sort [TS]

  of Big Valley companies and and you know [TS]

  in San Francisco but yeah my Apple has [TS]

  always been its own its own sort of [TS]

  universe and you see it you see that all [TS]

  over the place not just in the valley [TS]

  you see it sort of online you see it [TS]

  when it comes to Apple fans there's a [TS]

  lot of people who are Apple fans or that [TS]

  are not necessarily tech fans you know I [TS]

  actually see that when it comes to like [TS]

  readers and you see it you know in [TS]

  popular culture where yeah it's [TS]

  interesting it really is its own sort of [TS]

  its own sort of entity for better or [TS]

  worse yeah and I think at a practical [TS]

  level it's absolutely the case I mean [TS]

  there's no argument no spin it's just [TS]

  just a fact that San Jose is so much [TS]

  closer to Apple's campus or campuses and [TS]

  Cupertino that for engineers at Apple [TS]

  who have things to do that week that [TS]

  they need to be at the office they can [TS]

  swing by they might be able to do a [TS]

  couple of hours work in their office and [TS]

  then go to WWDC in the afternoon for [TS]

  labs or something like that and people [TS]

  might get you know attendees might get [TS]

  interaction with significantly more [TS]

  engineers from Apple who couldn't take [TS]

  an entire day to go up to San Francisco [TS]

  because it's night and day [TS]

  I mean San Francisco is can be over an [TS]

  hour away [TS]

  depending on traffic and San Jose it's [TS]

  you know probably like 10 15 minute [TS]

  drive yep yep exactly as you you found [TS]

  us you found a good spot for for the [TS]

  talk show yeah yeah I'm in that [TS]

  California theater where that iPad event [TS]

  was the one that was in San Jose so he's [TS]

  a lot bigger than the old place good [TS]

  place where I had my show yeah oh my god [TS]

  it's so much bigger it's guys like as I [TS]

  get 1,100 seat capacity and I thought [TS]

  that when we had it mezzanine in San [TS]

  Francisco which I love which I still if [TS]

  you know I love that facility I love [TS]

  doing a show there but I think we capped [TS]

  it at 500 I think you could mezzanine a [TS]

  attendance cap is significantly higher [TS]

  than that but 500 seems to you know and [TS]

  and judging from people's reactions over [TS]

  the years if it's it keeps it from [TS]

  getting too crowded like I don't want to [TS]

  attack the most number of people in [TS]

  there I feel bad when people like I [TS]

  think tickets sold out in like 10 [TS]

  minutes last year so I feel bad that [TS]

  people want to go can't come but I'd [TS]

  rather have everybody I draw there are [TS]

  fewer people come and more people [TS]

  excluded but have everybody be [TS]

  comfortable but I uh yeah are there [TS]

  gonna be drinks I think that's probably [TS]

  the the more pressing question there [TS]

  will be drinks and I don't know how [TS]

  that's going to work because it's a [TS]

  the--it's a real theater theater and I [TS]

  don't know yeah any pictures right now [TS]

  right I don't know how easy it'll be for [TS]

  people who are sitting in the middle of [TS]

  a road to go get drinks so I don't know [TS]

  it might have to be sort of a you know [TS]

  get your load on get your load on before [TS]

  the show starts that was the great thing [TS]

  about Bethenny's you could like every [TS]

  obviously there was the seating and if [TS]

  you're in a seat was the your [TS]

  interviewer or you know the show was [TS]

  going on you wouldn't get up and go but [TS]

  you could also just sort of be in the [TS]

  back and be you know mingling a little [TS]

  bit and getting a drink and uh so yeah [TS]

  it kind of served a you could watch you [TS]

  could watch the show in multiple in [TS]

  multiple ways okay which was nice well [TS]

  we'll see I don't know [TS]

  but 1,100 people Jesus that's going to [TS]

  be nerve-racking as a balcony and [TS]

  everything it does is it's very [TS]

  beautiful I'm looking at the looking at [TS]

  the pictures right now yeah take it [TS]

  still aren't on sale but they will be [TS]

  soon [TS]

  that's right now okay I forgot that you [TS]

  hadn't I like that maybe people give the [TS]

  Munsell with how you post what I am you [TS]

  know I'm not waiting till the last [TS]

  minute but it's just lots of little too [TS]

  it's not too much work I don't have to [TS]

  it's not like I'm sitting there hooking [TS]

  microphones up and stuff but there's a [TS]

  lot of details to be worked out yet [TS]

  anyway well hopefully hopefully I didn't [TS]

  give it give anything away no no no no [TS]

  no no that's a secret it even the venue [TS]

  is art it's right there on apple's [TS]

  website and stuff like that so i'm not [TS]

  keeping it secret anyway let's take a [TS]

  break i thank our four sponsors our good [TS]

  friends at fracture fracture is the [TS]

  photo decor company that's out to rescue [TS]

  your favorite images from the digital [TS]

  ether that's their words not mine here's [TS]

  what they do they take your photos they [TS]

  print them directly on glass right there [TS]

  on the glass on the glass not a piece of [TS]

  paper glued to glass they I don't know [TS]

  what they have they've custom [TS]

  proprietary stuff they just put glass [TS]

  into the printer the printer puts your [TS]

  photo right on the glass and then they [TS]

  mail it to you and it looks amazing it's [TS]

  got that Retina effect where it just [TS]

  looks like it doesn't look it looks [TS]

  there's just such a different effect [TS]

  than a piece of paper behind a piece of [TS]

  glass and frame and it takes all the [TS]

  pain-in-the-ass stuff out of hanging [TS]

  pictures up because this happens to me [TS]

  every time every time I used to get like [TS]

  Ikea frames or something like that you'd [TS]

  put a photo in there and then you have [TS]

  to get those little things on the back [TS]

  that take that secure the cardboard you [TS]

  flip them up and then you put the [TS]

  picture in then you put the cardboard [TS]

  back in and you flip them back down and [TS]

  inevitably the picture goes like two [TS]

  degrees off and you got to open it up [TS]

  start all over again what a pain in the [TS]

  ass with the pictures from fractured [TS]

  there's nothing like that can happen [TS]

  it's just a piece of glass so it's [TS]

  always perfectly aligned and they ship [TS]

  you everything you need to hang it on [TS]

  the wall in the box they even include [TS]

  the wall anchor just upload your digital [TS]

  photo on their website pick the size and [TS]

  just wait for it to show up in a mail [TS]

  that's it could not be easier where do [TS]

  you go to find out more fracture [TS]

  slash podcast not did everyone every [TS]

  time I read it I feel like I'm making a [TS]

  mistake and that that's some kind of [TS]

  placeholder but that's really the URL [TS]

  fracture slash podcast and then I [TS]

  guess they use the same URL for all [TS]

  podcasts but then at the end when you [TS]

  they'll say hey where'd you find out [TS]

  about fracture and you can say the talk [TS]

  show [TS]

  hey go buy something for Father's Day [TS]

  it's a great great gift too late for [TS]

  Mother's Day Mother's Day is like two [TS]

  days from now but fathers days coming up [TS]

  next month what an amazing gift go buy a [TS]

  fracture for your for your father your [TS]

  husband anything like that what a great [TS]

  gift [TS]

  well I fractured me is is memorable yeah [TS]

  and to your l's at euros are hard [TS]

  there's someone was making fun of there [TS]

  is a tweets and effective tech before so [TS]

  are so uncreated that they have a site [TS]

  about strategy and tactile trajectory [TS]

  and I'm like it's it's true I've no I've [TS]

  no excuse every dairy firewall as always [TS]

  I'm always like damaged I should have [TS]

  hired you to get a name you find me a [TS]

  name before I started but I know it's [TS]

  now it's too late [TS]

  it's the other thing too is is getting [TS]

  any URLs hard and the one of the things [TS]

  when I started I had no money I was I [TS]

  was in debt that you know and the idea [TS]

  like going out and spending money to get [TS]

  a a URL or whatever or Twitter handle [TS]

  stuff like one of the advantages of [TS]

  trajectory is it was available um I [TS]

  would I like I said I probably wouldn't [TS]

  use it again if I starting over because [TS]

  it's you know so hard to say hard to [TS]

  spell hahaha which is not a good not a [TS]

  good combo but but yeah it's it's hard [TS]

  you the whole URL Twitter handle thing [TS]

  is uh it's tough you know I remember [TS]

  fracture me especially now after you [TS]

  sort of made that that that little joke [TS]

  you know that I have during fireball [TS]

  calm right yeah but it redirects to done [TS]

  it right and some people don't ask about [TS]

  that anymore in the early years people [TS]

  would be like why why do you why do you [TS]

  redirect why don't you know [TS]

  wouldn't would most people if I have [TS]

  both redirected calm and I think it's [TS]

  like to me it's like I started using the [TS]

  internet so early when most domains [TS]

  weren't comms you know like dot orgs and [TS]

  dot ed use bed use were probably the [TS]

  most popular that I used uh and net to [TS]

  but to was sort of crass in the [TS]

  early years and I know that in the you [TS]

  know after the document even called the [TS]

  bubble the calm bubble like [TS]

  sort of became the the neutral one right [TS]

  it's like ground zero of all the [TS]

  top-level domains like by default you [TS]

  wanna calm but like when I was I'm in my [TS]

  mind it still is sort of crass I don't [TS]

  know [TS]

  again the early years all the dot-com [TS]

  sites were garbage right with it was [TS]

  supposed to be like commercial right I [TS]

  think it was dancefloor then try I like [TS]

  I liked I agree I like dotnet better but [TS]

  yes I give in to the to the prevailing I [TS]

  own trajectory got net also but it [TS]

  redirects in the opposite direction [TS]

  right and like Kottke I think a lot of [TS]

  really early types you know like me I [TS]

  was it like hockey org yeah and I just [TS]

  it wouldn't work like neither it somehow [TS]

  is part of the domain like cocky net [TS]

  wouldn't be right cocky calm would be [TS]

  awful like it just it wouldn't be the [TS]

  same like Kottke org is exactly right [TS]

  and for whatever reason in my mind it's [TS]

  just like when you rewrite a sentence [TS]

  and just use the same words but you put [TS]

  a clause in the middle of the sentence [TS]

  as opposed to at the end or something [TS]

  like that and one way reads great in one [TS]

  way it doesn't to me daring firebolt net [TS]

  reads better than daring fireball calm I [TS]

  relayed the great thing [TS]

  Mozart go ahead go ahead man oh no I [TS]

  just I just gonna say there's a great [TS]

  thing about daring fireball is it's so [TS]

  distinct that you can one if you type [TS]

  these if you type in URL and then the [TS]

  thing is that no one actually types you [TS]

  know us us nerds do but the best or [TS]

  people don't even you know type URLs [TS]

  like the google has the whole you know [TS]

  uh like a huge number back in the day [TS]

  like they they could track how popular [TS]

  Facebook was because my people you know [TS]

  typing Facebook into Google to go to [TS]

  Facebook know what's more people doesn't [TS]

  really rusher but that's great about [TS]

  during fireball even if you do your L or [TS]

  you do a Google search whatever it's [TS]

  going to its memorable and it's going to [TS]

  come up right away [TS]

  wasn't there a thing where oh off the [TS]

  top of my head I'm not remembering it [TS]

  right but there was a thing where the [TS]

  number one result for facebook login was [TS]

  no longer the facebook login page and [TS]

  the poor bugger who had it was just some [TS]

  guy site or something and they the guy [TS]

  was just inundated with thousands of [TS]

  people saying how to [TS]

  what have you done to Facebook this [TS]

  doesn't look like Facebook do you [TS]

  remember that I I don't but that would [TS]

  be brutal [TS]

  right it's pretty because that's how [TS]

  people get to the facebook login sign [TS]

  they go to Google and then type facebook [TS]

  login hit return I'll expect expect to [TS]

  be taken there funny stuff that's what [TS]

  my son gets around the internet he just [TS]

  type stuff into Google yeah that's [TS]

  that's pretty normal [TS]

  baby that's pretty normal behavior I [TS]

  mean if people you know to the extent [TS]

  people are still using the Internet I [TS]

  mean it's uh it it really shows the [TS]

  extent to which Google is the sort of [TS]

  linchpin for the Internet I mean yes you [TS]

  can type your Elle's go to places but [TS]

  the reality is in the way that people [TS]

  actually experience online is is the [TS]

  rule it's not just about like typing [TS]

  Facebook into Google search page but [TS]

  there's just so much stuff there's [TS]

  there's so many things that it's [TS]

  incomprehensible to to anyone even the [TS]

  smartest person person on earth I mean [TS]

  and Google what make schools so [TS]

  brilliant is such a brilliant sort of [TS]

  invention is that you know the old [TS]

  search engines the more stuff there was [TS]

  the more they bogged down because they [TS]

  were you know I mean the original Yahoo [TS]

  was literally a directory I mean [TS]

  obviously the future search engines [TS]

  weren't you were much more sophisticated [TS]

  but Google by sort of building on top of [TS]

  the link instead of building on top of [TS]

  the pages themselves it well it turned [TS]

  out when you got more links Google got [TS]

  smarter and understood it better and [TS]

  well when the web got larger everyone [TS]

  else got worse except for Google which [TS]

  actually got even better and and and [TS]

  that's you know that's sort of the core [TS]

  piece of the company's dominance and and [TS]

  why they're the you know the winch pin [TS]

  for for the entire Internet which brings [TS]

  us to Windows 10 s and the way that on [TS]

  Windows 10s you can't change your [TS]

  default search engine you get Bing and [TS]

  you like it [TS]

  yeah and I think that's I I believe [TS]

  they're giving away tennis to yes I am [TS]

  so that's that's at the primary way that [TS]

  they're going to I mean obviously [TS]

  there's app sells as well but app cells [TS]

  and and Bing searches and stuff like [TS]

  that I think Bing is actually profitable [TS]

  now or or very close to it it has been [TS]

  for a little bit actually it should be [TS]

  don't you think I mean it doesn't make [TS]

  sense that they would keep they'd keep [TS]

  losing money on it because I mean now [TS]

  I'm still you know how much could it [TS]

  cost other than labor you know yeah like [TS]

  yeah it's where those things where it [TS]

  it's not like a Winnie er sort of thing [TS]

  where they make a little more money a [TS]

  little more money and that now they're [TS]

  profitable they're going like it's like [TS]

  you're either losing a lot or you're [TS]

  making a good amount like once you get [TS]

  the sort of scale effects that are [TS]

  they're kicking in uh yeah it but it's [TS]

  still it's not actually growing pretty [TS]

  decently I should I think five five [TS]

  point three billion in revenue the last [TS]

  fiscal year I should try it again I [TS]

  haven't tried Bing in a while I done [TS]

  different max are different devices at [TS]

  any given time I sometimes switch to [TS]

  DuckDuckGo which I admire is the plucky [TS]

  little startup you know and their local [TS]

  to Philly to its which it gives me a [TS]

  little affection for them but I have to [TS]

  admit that there there's a lot of times [TS]

  with DuckDuckGo where it's semi-free [TS]

  yeah if you're going to do it you at [TS]

  some point in a week you're going to be [TS]

  typing to look there's a trick they have [TS]

  you can even type like GE exclamation [TS]

  mark and it redoes the same query but [TS]

  redirects you to Google because there's [TS]

  just sometimes it's you know it's it's [TS]

  not as good as Google search I mean they [TS]

  do some really cool stuff and I like the [TS]

  privacy aspect of it but it sounds good [TS]

  but the thing that surprises me is I I [TS]

  thought Microsoft might catch up to [TS]

  Google search with Bing cuz it seems [TS]

  like the sort of problem that Microsoft [TS]

  would be able to solve like it never [TS]

  surprises me that Microsoft software [TS]

  never has is nice of a UI as Apple [TS]

  software because it's institutionally [TS]

  they're just they just don't have the [TS]

  people who have the taste for that but [TS]

  web search is really just you don't have [TS]

  to have taste for that you know it's [TS]

  it's a purely algorithmic challenge to [TS]

  get that right well they're not quite [TS]

  you need data I mean the [TS]

  the thing with Google is it is a the [TS]

  algorithm itself is far bit far beyond a [TS]

  any one person could you know it was [TS]

  designed by a person to start at this [TS]

  point it's so complex and have loaded [TS]

  and a lot of it is is just constant [TS]

  iterative feedback so when people are [TS]

  doing searches it not in that I'm not [TS]

  about the individual I search is just as [TS]

  a whole like which results are they [TS]

  quick like Google wants the first the [TS]

  proper results we the first result so [TS]

  they are tracking which result you [TS]

  actually click on where how far down you [TS]

  go and and plus websites are optimizing [TS]

  cells for Google and they and so by [TS]

  crafty has to you know would attach on [TS]

  to that but it's one of those situations [TS]

  where thanks to the feedback loop that [TS]

  comes from having the most data and the [TS]

  most users and the most searches if two [TS]

  identical search engines if one starts [TS]

  at fifty one percent market share and [TS]

  one starts at forty nine percent market [TS]

  share [TS]

  absent sort of any exterior force the [TS]

  one with market share is going to get [TS]

  better over time relative to the other [TS]

  one it which means which and then when [TS]

  it gets better that lets it get more [TS]

  users because it's a better search [TS]

  engine and then it gets even more data [TS]

  relative to the competition so it even [TS]

  has a bigger advantage so the reality is [TS]

  is even Microsoft could have the [TS]

  smartest sort of search folks in the [TS]

  world but because it's a problem that's [TS]

  not just about algorithm design it's [TS]

  it's about the entire sort of system and [TS]

  having it a feedback loop they will it's [TS]

  very difficult to to ever catch up [TS]

  absent some sort of like incredible you [TS]

  know breakthrough you can't buy your way [TS]

  out and all there's no way to write that [TS]

  it doesn't get you there that's [TS]

  interesting I think your that to me has [TS]

  to be the explanation because I just [TS]

  don't think that I don't think the [TS]

  problem is that Microsoft doesn't have [TS]

  the intelligence in the engineering to [TS]

  do it I you know and they obviously will [TS]

  had no problem spending money on it you [TS]

  know for years famously they were losing [TS]

  billions on bing I think that's just it [TS]

  though that Google so popular that it it [TS]

  you know that their popularity feeds [TS]

  upon their accuracy right if there are [TS]

  seeds upon their popularity and this is [TS]

  where Google is in some respects it's [TS]

  like a Facebook effect but it's like [TS]

  there there is [TS]

  sort of network effect but it's not [TS]

  necessary about people per se it's the [TS]

  interaction between people and the sort [TS]

  of data they generate but you get the [TS]

  same sort of idea where the larger [TS]

  service like because did I think I [TS]

  always write a lot of about user [TS]

  experience and the point I always have [TS]

  to sometimes forget to make this and [TS]

  when I forget to make this point I was [TS]

  regretted because I get a bunch people [TS]

  ask me you know pointing asking [TS]

  questions user experience does not mean [TS]

  user interface user interface is an [TS]

  important part of the user experience [TS]

  and is critical you know for something [TS]

  like a phone for example that's in your [TS]

  hand you're interacting with and [TS]

  actually you know we talked about you [TS]

  know we can stuff in Congress in a [TS]

  little bit but the user experience is [TS]

  the totality of the experience which [TS]

  means you know having better search [TS]

  results means it's a better experience [TS]

  having more friends on Facebook more [TS]

  family on Facebook not having to try to [TS]

  recruit people to get on there means [TS]

  it's a better it's a better experience [TS]

  that has nothing to do with the [TS]

  interface per se and these aspects of [TS]

  the experience are they build on [TS]

  themselves and this is why you have [TS]

  these companies that are so dominant and [TS]

  what makes it so tricky and I've been [TS]

  writing a lot about this you know over [TS]

  the last years so these companies are so [TS]

  powerful because of these sort of data [TS]

  effects and these network effects and [TS]

  they're powerful in a way that's [TS]

  actually better for the consumer like [TS]

  google is popular because it's better [TS]

  which means it gets more users and when [TS]

  it gets more users it actually becomes [TS]

  even even better which means it's it's [TS]

  so there is it's positive on the user [TS]

  perspective and same a Facebook it has [TS]

  the most user so it more people join it [TS]

  because it's there and the more people [TS]

  join it now it has more users and you [TS]

  get the same sort of feedback loop where [TS]

  people choose it because it's better and [TS]

  that sort of makes from a anti-trust [TS]

  perspective that makes sort of US [TS]

  antitrust like fall completely apart [TS]

  because it's based on consumer benefit [TS]

  and there's actually they're providing a [TS]

  ton of consumer benefit that's why [TS]

  they're winning right [TS]

  all right as a summary of like 15 [TS]

  scenarios I've been writing about did [TS]

  you see the story that in the verge had [TS]

  it that the surface laptop now the most [TS]

  like unique thing about these surface [TS]

  laptops that they announced is that the [TS]

  other than the keyboard and a trackpad [TS]

  that what you touch on the front face is [TS]

  like a like a soft touch leather like [TS]

  fake leather type thing but it's like [TS]

  it's called which looks awful to me but [TS]

  how Cantara [TS]

  apparently a lot of carmakers use it [TS]

  high-end car makers well I don't want to [TS]

  judge it on photos but from the photos [TS]

  to me it looks terrible I would not want [TS]

  that I wouldn't if I had the choice when [TS]

  buying a laptop whether I just have the [TS]

  bare aluminum surface or like no pun [TS]

  intended surface or have it covered with [TS]

  this stuff if without having seen it in [TS]

  person I would zero hesitation I would [TS]

  just say just give me the aluminum this [TS]

  seems like a disaster yeah but I saw [TS]

  people excoriating Microsoft for having [TS]

  said told the verge that you need to [TS]

  treat it like a like a luxury purse or [TS]

  something like that or a luxury handbag [TS]

  and I think people took that as meaning [TS]

  that it's like dainty and that it's [TS]

  you're like you have to treat it [TS]

  preciously I think that's how people [TS]

  reacted to this like the headline I [TS]

  think Microsoft says the fabric on the [TS]

  surface laptop should be cared for like [TS]

  a luxury handbag and I think the verge [TS]

  did a disservice with that headline [TS]

  because it's not really that's that [TS]

  that's not a quote the only quote in [TS]

  that headline is the word luxury here's [TS]

  the actual statement from Microsoft I [TS]

  hate this use of the word luxury just [TS]

  like anything luxury that you buy like [TS]

  that it should be luxurious or something [TS]

  or any luxury product that you buy but [TS]

  it still it seems self-serving for them [TS]

  to describe it as luxury but anyway just [TS]

  like anything luxury that you buy like [TS]

  great handbags or a pair of shoes or [TS]

  even expensive cars there is a care [TS]

  that's needed for the device the so I [TS]

  you know I think Note has to be some [TS]

  care for but I think the thing that [TS]

  people aren't maybe maybe now you and I [TS]

  understand it with with our spouses but [TS]

  you can get like there are handbags that [TS]

  that are might be you know from a luxury [TS]

  brand and they're not really dainty [TS]

  they're actually the opposite they're [TS]

  actually very they're they're built to [TS]

  last for decades you know and yep and [TS]

  you know you do have to treat leather [TS]

  and if you get it wet you have to take [TS]

  care of it right away and stuff like [TS]

  that but they actually hold up [TS]

  surprisingly well they're not dainty [TS]

  little Faberge eggs that are actually [TS]

  much more rugged in some ways than than [TS]

  typical lower-cost bags so that [TS]

  sometimes you like as long as you buy a [TS]

  nice bag or some nice pair of shoes that [TS]

  are luxury but you buy them because they [TS]

  last way longer and hold up much better [TS]

  and age much more attractively than [TS]

  something that's that's lower costs [TS]

  right a difference it was a weird [TS]

  Twitter account I was into for a while [TS]

  was it was one of those ones that was [TS]

  interesting only when it was anonymous [TS]

  and then when somebody figured out who [TS]

  the guy was there's no fun anymore [TS]

  GS elevator remember that it was oh yeah [TS]

  yeah it was so so put it was written [TS]

  from the perspective of stuff overheard [TS]

  in the elevators at Goldman Sachs and it [TS]

  was often hilarious often very very rude [TS]

  sort of from the that very lewd that bro [TS]

  a alpha male banker mentality um but I [TS]

  remember the guy who wrote it had liked [TS]

  it was like a he also had like articles [TS]

  I was just like alright so you got a job [TS]

  and an investment bank here's what did [TS]

  you know your kid out of college here's [TS]

  what here's the clothes that you need to [TS]

  buy and one of his things was that you [TS]

  should get like I forget I forget if you [TS]

  recommended Gucci or what but you know [TS]

  something like get like a nice pair of [TS]

  Gucci shoes yes there's $800 or $700 but [TS]

  they will last you way longer than 10 [TS]

  pairs of $200 shoes if you take care of [TS]

  right yep you know there's obviously [TS]

  some things that are luxury priced that [TS]

  are not you know that you're just you [TS]

  know like a sports car like if you buy a [TS]

  Lamborghini you're just pissing money [TS]

  it's not really it you're not really [TS]

  buying it for the value of I mean the [TS]

  car is valuable but it's not like you're [TS]

  not going to sink tens of thousands of [TS]

  dollars in it maintenance as you go like [TS]

  nobody buys a Lamborghini because it's [TS]

  worth it's a good investment reliability [TS]

  wise compared to a Honda right yep we're [TS]

  but there are some things like a nice [TS]

  shoe or a nice belt or something like [TS]

  that where you actually yes you're [TS]

  paying a lot of money but it's actually [TS]

  might be you might be paying five times [TS]

  more than what you're used to but you're [TS]

  actually getting like ten times better [TS]

  product I don't think that the surface [TS]

  laptop is like that though I don't know [TS]

  yeah yeah I went to that's not I went to [TS]

  use that word choice and yeah that now [TS]

  that I'm looking at that just like [TS]

  anything luxury that's driving me up the [TS]

  wall that's that's terrible they have to [TS]

  they have to have tested this I know [TS]

  it's like last week on the showed Renee [TS]

  and I were joking about that the iPad [TS]

  our iPod that Kate I think was like an [TS]

  iPod Nano that was super easily [TS]

  scratched do you remember that was the [TS]

  original the original nano yeah it was I [TS]

  almost in a you know I would love is one [TS]

  of those like behind the scenes things I [TS]

  would love to someday get that story out [TS]

  of Apple as to how in the hell did they [TS]

  make tens of thousands of these things [TS]

  or a half a million of these things out [TS]

  of a plastic that you scratch with your [TS]

  fingernail like what the hell are they [TS]

  thinking how did that not get caught in [TS]

  testing I don't mean if you saw one like [TS]

  they and with in not long I mean they [TS]

  would be just completely destroyed like [TS]

  to the point where you could barely even [TS]

  read the screen we in the whole it was [TS]

  the whole front not just the screen like [TS]

  the entire surface would be right would [TS]

  be just completely yeah all shredded up [TS]

  yeah it's hard to remember compared to I [TS]

  phones where everything is so much [TS]

  closer to the surface now but with the [TS]

  iPods even with the Nano there was sort [TS]

  of a thick layer of screen or not even [TS]

  screen but just plastic on the whole [TS]

  front of all these models or a bunch of [TS]

  them I remember we got demand when I was [TS]

  working at Giant I forget we hit some [TS]

  kind of milestone or something and so [TS]

  everybody in the company got one as a [TS]

  gift [TS]

  and in our company like Chad I forget we [TS]

  even used for chat it wasn't slack [TS]

  obviously wasn't around but the [TS]

  equivalent of slacks IRC I wasn't IRC [TS]

  that I forget what we were using but uh [TS]

  hip hip hip tin and that was a long [TS]

  title - yeah I don't remember uh I don't [TS]

  know why I'm trying to bank on it but we [TS]

  had like a company-wide chat who [TS]

  everybody got these in we're like [TS]

  everybody was you know having fun with [TS]

  their new iPod in and it took like an [TS]

  hour for people to be like holy shit [TS]

  it's mines all scratched up yep anyway [TS]

  it doesn't five man has already been 12 [TS]

  years I can't help but think that [TS]

  Microsoft had to have like stress tested [TS]

  these things with actual sweaty palms in [TS]

  you know warm you know use it you know [TS]

  use this for a while with you know maybe [TS]

  have us in a warm room with somebody who [TS]

  sweats through their palms or something [TS]

  right these things can't just pick up [TS]

  ugly palm sweat stains yeah I mean I'm [TS]

  not that's right I want to admit to this [TS]

  but my even my MacBook is always the [TS]

  keyboard and that all ends up just [TS]

  totally filthy it's pretty disgusting [TS]

  actually I should probably clean it yeah [TS]

  you probably should that's Crispin I [TS]

  don't know I I just doesn't see my the [TS]

  more I think about it this just doesn't [TS]

  seem like a good idea I don't know it [TS]

  just seems it too many laptops get too [TS]

  grungy as is as as as easy to clean a [TS]

  surface as aluminum is I mean it's [TS]

  pretty hard to think of something that's [TS]

  easier to clean than that it everyone [TS]

  just wants everyone just wants them to [TS]

  make a nice laptop that's all they want [TS]

  just a regular they like but so they did [TS]

  the surface book thing over they did the [TS]

  surface and the surface book thing and [TS]

  now there's a laptop but yeah it has it [TS]

  has did but I mean there's I know [TS]

  there's lots of politics and competing [TS]

  with the OEMs all sort of stuff but but [TS]

  yeah I'd rather get it I'd rather get a [TS]

  think pad with the nub anyway I know I [TS]

  know I mean I think it's it's so [TS]

  different [TS]

  I don't know didn't they used in the old [TS]

  days it was like the nub was the only [TS]

  thing right they didn't even have a [TS]

  trackpad yep it used to be just just to [TS]

  Justin up but not yeah they are both now [TS]

  that's almost like an apple like [TS]

  devotion like apples devotion to the [TS]

  single button Mouse [TS]

  you know in the world where everybody [TS]

  went the other way the old IBM ThinkPads [TS]

  devotion to the little red nub yeah well [TS]

  I mean if you there's a lot of people [TS]

  that I mean not like as relatively [TS]

  speaking out a ton but there are you [TS]

  know people like it I mean once you is [TS]

  if you're used to it it's one of those [TS]

  things where if you really like it like [TS]

  why would you you're gonna just keep I [TS]

  think that you drive even think about it [TS]

  and I think part of the problem too is [TS]

  this you know touchpads have always been [TS]

  so terrible on Windows right that [TS]

  showdown that was the big reason yeah [TS]

  those are the big reasons that I when I [TS]

  rise using OS that Microsoft I used to [TS]

  think pad and that was the biggest [TS]

  reason I started using it up in the [TS]

  first place that the trackpad was [TS]

  atrocious but then you know you use it [TS]

  and you actually grow to really really [TS]

  like it I mean the the not having to uh [TS]

  like it I mean the the not having to uh [TS]

  um I mean you're absolutely used to it [TS]

  moving you move your hand much on on a [TS]

  um on a computer but on a MacBook but [TS]

  just having right there what you're used [TS]

  to it's it's nice yeah it's great it's [TS]

  given them an actual like [TS]

  differentiation it's it in a world you [TS]

  know like the big problem that PC OEMs [TS]

  have is that what what's to keep you [TS]

  know let's say you sell somebody an HP [TS]

  laptop once they keep them from buying a [TS]

  different brand the next time they buy [TS]

  one nothing really [TS]

  it's yep and the little red nubbin is [TS]

  actually a little bit of a [TS]

  differentiator if they have the the [TS]

  muscle memory port yep I always thought [TS]

  they were weird anyway what else do want [TS]

  to talk about before we get to that what [TS]

  Oh to to the to the WeChat thing yeah uh [TS]

  well I think I actually think we've [TS]

  through talk about various things have [TS]

  have set the stage set set the stage [TS]

  nicely so um oh yeah what do you think [TS]

  about the two new echoes there's the oh [TS]

  yeah there's the camera one and then [TS]

  there's the the one with the screen well [TS]

  let's talk about that after I thank [TS]

  another one of our friends it's our good [TS]

  friend just a new sponsor first time I [TS]

  really like this company though Pingdom [TS]

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  go to wpm calm /l p / talk-show Pingdom [TS]

  comm /l p / talk-show and have a nice [TS]

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  anything with these guys it's really [TS]

  great so you got a web server you can [TS]

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  their name but they can actually [TS]

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  certain [TS]

  components and modern websites have so [TS]

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  my thanks to Pingdom great great service [TS]

  yeah so Amazon they have two new what do [TS]

  they call them echo products they both [TS]

  yeah there's an echo look which is the [TS]

  just a camera and then there's the in [TS]

  bill met they're pitching it for putting [TS]

  in your closet right or wardrobe and [TS]

  then the echo the bigger probably the [TS]

  one they made a bigger splash about was [TS]

  the echo show which is a has a screen [TS]

  pen screen this is now now echo can show [TS]

  you things I believe is the tagline [TS]

  right and obviously also has a camera [TS]

  since it does like photo video calls [TS]

  right which I actually think is is the [TS]

  most the most interesting part of it and [TS]

  it really featured very heavily in the [TS]

  sort of the introductory video yeah I [TS]

  have to I have to watch that again but [TS]

  it did seem like it's almost more like [TS]

  the bigger announcement is that they're [TS]

  doing their own they don't have a name [TS]

  for it though right there's no they [TS]

  don't have like a name like FaceTime [TS]

  right no it's just it's just uh yeah and [TS]

  it's not just the echo show because they [TS]

  updated the the Alexa app and so you can [TS]

  go between phones and the echo show and [TS]

  or or echo showed echo show I don't know [TS]

  for sure if you can go phone to phone [TS]

  but I presume you I presume you can [TS]

  yeah that's not about yesterday I wrote [TS]

  that I presume you can and that's gonna [TS]

  look it up and then I backed it up right [TS]

  but yeah but it but it is basically a [TS]

  FaceTime competitor without being called [TS]

  a FaceTime competitor but that's [TS]

  certainly what it is well it's because [TS]

  it would so that the the trick to the [TS]

  whole thing is that they've updated the [TS]

  the phone app for I guess Android and [TS]

  iOS I know the iOS once updated where [TS]

  both for you to have one of these calls [TS]

  with somebody who doesn't own an echo or [TS]

  you know what good who would want to use [TS]

  this if you had to be in the room where [TS]

  your echo is to get the call thank it's [TS]

  like yours all of a sudden you're back [TS]

  to like landline days where you've got a [TS]

  quick run to the kitchen to take a phone [TS]

  call that that's not gonna fly but well [TS]

  yeah but I mean I remember all the I [TS]

  think the with the echo first first came [TS]

  along you know it was it had in the [TS]

  original interactive video which [TS]

  unfortunately taken down but it was even [TS]

  it was super corny and I'm a rock with [TS]

  made fun of it but actually I kind of [TS]

  liked it because it was and you can see [TS]

  the same thing in the new echo show [TS]

  video which is it's very sort of there's [TS]

  no like fancy like marketing commercial [TS]

  stuff going on here it's very [TS]

  straightforward like showing people [TS]

  explicit use cases for this product and [TS]

  people go through use cases like the dad [TS]

  is changing the baby's diaper and he's [TS]

  ordering new diapers like it's not [TS]

  subtle at all but I kind of like that [TS]

  like it's you're not limited to a [TS]

  30-second grab you're not trying to [TS]

  instill sort of I think it's a mistake a [TS]

  lot of marketers in tech have [TS]

  traditionally made is they've they hire [TS]

  these branding agency especially in the [TS]

  early attack these Brian agencies that [TS]

  we're used to doing like consumer goods [TS]

  because we were packaged goods and there [TS]

  it's all about building sort of brand [TS]

  affinity because the goal is when [TS]

  someone's in a store and they're faced [TS]

  with like 15 options for crackers that [TS]

  they choose [TS]

  one or they or Joe or might be they [TS]

  choose one and they don't really know [TS]

  why they chose it they just they just do [TS]

  and that's the payoff of all that [TS]

  advertising and branding and all that [TS]

  all that that sort of stuff with with [TS]

  tech products it's much more of a [TS]

  deliberate choice so to use sort of [TS]

  brand type marketing I think is much [TS]

  inferior to just showing it showing how [TS]

  it works I mean this is something that [TS]

  somebody my favorite Apple ads actually [TS]

  were the original iPhone ads not the [TS]

  first one like the holo hello at the [TS]

  Academy Awards but now all the ads after [TS]

  that for the first year they were just [TS]

  showing people using the phone the ones [TS]

  were they know that Bob Bircher I think [TS]

  is nameless right yeah at the very end [TS]

  the phone with the phone and ring so [TS]

  they show them reading their times they [TS]

  show them uh you know scrolling playing [TS]

  a game or not playing a game but doing [TS]

  stuff on the phone that you could do on [TS]

  the phone and then active at the very [TS]

  under commercial and it's the same one [TS]

  every time the phone would ring say oh [TS]

  and it's a phone and it was so effective [TS]

  both in explaining what the iPhone is [TS]

  they're also teaching people how to use [TS]

  it it was some of my favorite [TS]

  commercials just because I think the way [TS]

  they really it was a new way of doing [TS]

  commercials I think it was much better [TS]

  for a tech product and uh something I [TS]

  was always very frustrated by when I was [TS]

  at Microsoft because I thought they were [TS]

  so so many the commercials were in this [TS]

  CPG branding mindset when you're selling [TS]

  a very different kind of product yeah [TS]

  yeah those I phone commercials were [TS]

  brilliant because they were fast they [TS]

  when they were 30-second spots but they [TS]

  they showed things and they I you know [TS]

  they showed it they showed the product [TS]

  but David was like real things and [TS]

  they're like look you maybe you don't [TS]

  believe it maybe you hear somebody [TS]

  saying you know you can get Maps on your [TS]

  phone now and on these iPhones you can [TS]

  get a usable map but they'd show it they [TS]

  say here look type Starbucks and hit up [TS]

  one button very easy just says you know [TS]

  like search or whatever and then a map [TS]

  shows up showing how far you are from [TS]

  Starbucks or whatever the example wasn't [TS]

  a commercial yep yep exactly yeah the [TS]

  map one was it was it was it was a big [TS]

  one and that was any it was so [TS]

  immediately became apparent what the [TS]

  value was to people right right yeah and [TS]

  yet this is something you can it's this [TS]

  is something you can understand like [TS]

  Apple on [TS]

  stood that did it sounds funny but it's [TS]

  the thing that I think a lot of tech [TS]

  people even tech marketers overlook is [TS]

  that you tell a lot of people okay [TS]

  you've got a cell phone we know that we [TS]

  know you're frustrated by it we know [TS]

  that you probably can't figure out how [TS]

  to do anything on it other than make the [TS]

  phone calls we're trying to sell you a [TS]

  phone that does browses the web gets [TS]

  your email has maps let you watch [TS]

  youtube videos but trust us none of this [TS]

  is more complicated and making phone [TS]

  calls is even easier than it was on your [TS]

  old phone yep [TS]

  yeah is that it's exactly right so I [TS]

  mean these these at these Amazon echo [TS]

  spots are not like that there and [TS]

  they're not nearly as you know high [TS]

  producing they're still pretty corny but [TS]

  if you're showing a product a two [TS]

  hundred dollar product and in the [TS]

  original echo I think was the same it [TS]

  was $99 for Prime members but people are [TS]

  on your you're on the web you have [TS]

  infinite space you can show as short or [TS]

  long a video as you want you're not [TS]

  limited to 30 seconds and people are [TS]

  being deliberate about their choice why [TS]

  not take advantage of that and actually [TS]

  show how this product might be useful [TS]

  and and I think that's something they've [TS]

  done pretty consistently with these and [TS]

  and I think I think it's smart I think [TS]

  it's a much better way to think about [TS]

  you know marketing your product because [TS]

  you're marketing a different kind of [TS]

  product in a different context [TS]

  particular for Amazon because it's you [TS]

  know it's it's on there they have a big [TS]

  website that they can use yeah I know [TS]

  that the I'm going to get the name wrong [TS]

  I can't remember these right because [TS]

  there's weird like the echo show and I [TS]

  could look but it's like to me adopt is [TS]

  the little one well echo show is is the [TS]

  one with the TV set and right go look is [TS]

  the one that's like for your dressing [TS]

  room right but you could call it like [TS]

  it's one of those things where all right [TS]

  echo look is the one that is a camera [TS]

  and you show it you get dressed and you [TS]

  get like a selfie and you can get like [TS]

  some kind of analysis as to whether your [TS]

  shoes match your belt or whatever but it [TS]

  just the name echo look it could also [TS]

  mean the thing that you look at the [TS]

  thing with your screen right and echo [TS]

  show which is the one with the screen [TS]

  that could be the name of the one that's [TS]

  the camera like here echo let me show [TS]

  you what I'm wearing right yeah I would [TS]

  call the other one like just this is [TS]

  called echo camera laughing so too good [TS]

  is it clear that's what it is right and [TS]

  I think the the whole like gives you [TS]

  tips on what you wear I I always feel [TS]

  like they put that in for the tech geeks [TS]

  like I mean the reality is like this [TS]

  whole like taking pictures of your [TS]

  outfit is a huge thing like a massive [TS]

  thing and people do do it every day they [TS]

  mostly do it by holding up their arm and [TS]

  taking a selfie or staying in front of a [TS]

  mirror and snapping a picture like and [TS]

  like it's a is it like it's a massive [TS]

  massive massive thing so I think that's [TS]

  clearly what this product is focused on [TS]

  that's the point of it and every maybe [TS]

  in the long run it will be useful to [TS]

  like do the sort of AI stuff but I was [TS]

  like that was like throwing a bone to to [TS]

  all the techies saying like oh and [TS]

  there's this thing - it's a selfie [TS]

  camera like that what it is and it's and [TS]

  that's not to belittle it because that [TS]

  is a massive market and and it's a [TS]

  massive market that's really interesting [TS]

  there's lots of stuff about like retail [TS]

  and retail changing and one of the big [TS]

  drivers of this is social media and on [TS]

  social media it used to be back in the [TS]

  day like what drove fashion was it was [TS]

  all status thing right you want to go [TS]

  and you're them all you buy the high [TS]

  status items and then you would wear [TS]

  them to school or whatever now it's much [TS]

  more about standing out poppin on social [TS]

  media and variety and having something [TS]

  interesting and different is much more [TS]

  important and I think playing into that [TS]

  I love because you said we wear it to [TS]

  school or whatever and you're I know [TS]

  exactly why you said that and I think I [TS]

  even know why you hesitated after saying [TS]

  is I think you had the same thought that [TS]

  I had did as you said it is you're [TS]

  talking from the perspective of me and [TS]

  you two guys in our Latino because when [TS]

  when retail was the only way to buy [TS]

  clothes that's when you and I were in [TS]

  cyka school idol and and by the time we [TS]

  got out of school that was when the [TS]

  internet was a thing and I had the same [TS]

  thought it's like well yeah back in the [TS]

  days back in the days when you used to [TS]

  have to buy all your clothes at the mall [TS]

  you'd wear them school everybody worn to [TS]

  school but of course there were [TS]

  generations of adults ahead of us who [TS]

  wore than [TS]

  to other places yeah Venera it's it is [TS]

  funny like it's always hard to uh or it [TS]

  you have to be like super you're right [TS]

  because the hesitation was the snap of [TS]

  self-awareness like I'm probably over [TS]

  personalizing this experience but but I [TS]

  you do see this you know this sort of [TS]

  like traditional brands that dominated [TS]

  sort of malls and you know they're all [TS]

  struggling you know mightily and you you [TS]

  you see other things like there's this [TS]

  uh other websites and services that are [TS]

  much more inexpensive and it's much more [TS]

  about having something unique and [TS]

  indifferent uh as opposed to having the [TS]

  same branded [TS]

  you know teacher is everybody saying [TS]

  that I think the New York Times just had [TS]

  a story that the j-cruise [TS]

  and financial distress the gap is too [TS]

  there's a company know companies that [TS]

  ankle and grumpy and Fitch like all of [TS]

  them all of them are struggling right [TS]

  and he would thought well Abercrombie [TS]

  and Fitch was always a little bit more [TS]

  niche you know because they had the you [TS]

  know it smells weird and it purposefully [TS]

  made an unwelcoming front it's actually [TS]

  kind of an interesting retail strategy [TS]

  where they they kind of made the front [TS]

  of their stores sort of hard to get into [TS]

  like I said I'm a big wide opening they [TS]

  would just have a door and it was sort [TS]

  of you know like they wanted you know [TS]

  it's totally contrary to most retailers [TS]

  but it was sort of like they only wanted [TS]

  the right people to come in you know [TS]

  young people who were shopping for [TS]

  Abercrombie Coll clothes but anyway the [TS]

  gap to me is more of the universal my [TS]

  god everybody can go in the gap and find [TS]

  something that they would consider [TS]

  wearing too weird that they're having [TS]

  fun and I'm not weird but it's just it's [TS]

  it's obviously like a foundation of [TS]

  American retail is crumbling if stores [TS]

  like that aren't doing well [TS]

  here's a question for you do you still [TS]

  do you do you ever like when you need [TS]

  like you feel like you need like some [TS]

  new shirts do you go out and buy shirts [TS]

  in a retail store and you buy everything [TS]

  online I I look I usually every summer I [TS]

  go and just buy a ton of stuff actually [TS]

  we always it's a thing because my [TS]

  brother lives in Minneapolis and so we [TS]

  always go there and see my brother and [TS]

  then one day we go to the Mall of [TS]

  America and there's no sales tax on [TS]

  clothing there and everything's there [TS]

  and we just like spend one day buying [TS]

  Early's I do try to buy all the clothes [TS]

  I need for the entire year is what I do [TS]

  need things otherwise yeah I go to [TS]

  department stores here I don't I don't [TS]

  buy I don't buy online but I mean [TS]

  everything online here is mostly in [TS]

  Chinese and whatnot and obviously a [TS]

  little more difficult but my wife buys a [TS]

  ton of stuff online she buys stuff [TS]

  online all the time my wife finds [TS]

  everything online every almost [TS]

  everything I don't I can't recall the [TS]

  last time she went out shopping for [TS]

  clothes she just buys everything online [TS]

  and unlike me she's not afraid to send [TS]

  stuff back like that's my problem I I [TS]

  don't I hate I just don't like packing [TS]

  stuff up stand back it's irrational it's [TS]

  completely irrational and it's not like [TS]

  I've amassed all these like a big pile [TS]

  of clothes that I don't like or that [TS]

  don't fit that I just suck the you know [TS]

  just eat the cost of it because I don't [TS]

  send but it's why I don't buy stuff like [TS]

  shirts like if I was going to buy like a [TS]

  dress shirt I don't buy it online in [TS]

  your last night I know I'm the same way [TS]

  if I know that there's like a shirt from [TS]

  Banana Republic that I already have one [TS]

  and I know the exact size and I can [TS]

  judge from the picture exactly what this [TS]

  one looks like I would buy that online [TS]

  but that's because I've actually tried [TS]

  it on yeah I'm the same way I just [TS]

  that's sort of like yes it's a hassle to [TS]

  get in the car like go to the store or [TS]

  however you get you to the store but for [TS]

  me that that sort of hassle doesn't [TS]

  register whereas having a bunch of boxes [TS]

  and having to pack stuff up and put it [TS]

  out and oh that's just like sounds like [TS]

  absolute torture to me even if you know [TS]

  even if you were to actually go through [TS]

  and add up the number of minutes that it [TS]

  takes it's less the the feeling of it is [TS]

  is much worse so I'm now completely [TS]

  view but for stuff like like underwear [TS]

  and socks and stuff like that I don't [TS]

  think I've bought anything like that in [TS]

  a retail store in ten years I mean why [TS]

  would you you know it's crazy I feel [TS]

  like you feel like you need some new [TS]

  underwear boom just like a couple of [TS]

  items and it's at your house the Amazon [TS]

  Apparel thing all is very interesting [TS]

  because they're they've not announced [TS]

  any numbers about it but there's sort of [TS]

  hints that that it's actually doing much [TS]

  better than you think and they're [TS]

  growing really rapidly I suspect a lot [TS]

  of it you know is probably things like [TS]

  you just said you know basics and [TS]

  whatnot but they're making for at a [TS]

  minimum there for sure making massive [TS]

  investments in it like just huge not [TS]

  just the Amazon book although I think [TS]

  that is interesting in that regard but [TS]

  they have all kinds of interesting [TS]

  projects going on they've watched [TS]

  multiple brands uh you know that you [TS]

  know that because they're brands for [TS]

  they sort of categories own they own [TS]

  Zappos yeah but this is this is all in [TS]

  Amazon itself like I think it's not it's [TS]

  not the Zappos thing was I think at they [TS]

  bought them because they were doing well [TS]

  in their own e-commerce sites and so [TS]

  they want to bet they wanted to take [TS]

  them out I mean they just closed down or [TS]

  they're on the verge of closing down [TS]

  what's the other when they bought [TS]

  diapers diapers calm yeah same thing [TS]

  they you know I think in the long run I [TS]

  would I'd be surprised if Zappos remains [TS]

  ongoing concern but I mean people like [TS]

  it people go there so maybe they'll keep [TS]

  those they'll keep it around but the [TS]

  long run for sure is is all Amazon maybe [TS]

  they want because in this is the other [TS]

  thing oh this is the top of which talk [TS]

  about I'm writable this yet but um the [TS]

  Amazon Prime video be on Apple TV oh [TS]

  yeah well that's here I'm making a note [TS]

  we'll talk about that a minute yeah well [TS]

  because I think Amazon is really trying [TS]

  to own every aspect of your they they [TS]

  want to be the facilitator of basically [TS]

  everything in your life particularly [TS]

  everything in the home and this is what [TS]

  makes the whole echo line so brilliant [TS]

  for Amazon it's I mean the opportunity [TS]

  the reason the opportunity is there is [TS]

  because the home is the one place you [TS]

  don't necessarily have your phone with [TS]

  you right if you're out and about you [TS]

  always have your phone with you if [TS]

  you're at phone if you're at home it's [TS]

  plugged in and charging and whereas and [TS]

  the other thing is if you aren't about [TS]

  to just suddenly talk a Tran [TS]

  it's getting perhaps more and more [TS]

  socially acceptable but still a little [TS]

  weird where it's at home to kind of [TS]

  shout at Chartres and echo is is totally [TS]

  fine but there's nothing like it's your [TS]

  house you can do what you want but also [TS]

  it fits with the sort of long-term [TS]

  Amazon model of basically being the [TS]

  infrastructure for your for your home [TS]

  it's how the things your home get there [TS]

  is how you resupply it's how you do [TS]

  everything and so that's the focus on [TS]

  clothes and echo and all sort of stuff [TS]

  fits into that and having a uh having [TS]

  another brand that's not Amazon I think [TS]

  doesn't fit into that in the long run [TS]

  especially with prime because they want [TS]

  to be it's all Amazon it's all prime and [TS]

  so I I will see how long that poses for [TS]

  this world but it's I doubt it'll be a [TS]

  focus of their sort of apparel efforts [TS]

  oh I think that is doing well I just [TS]

  maybe it's just continues to run as a [TS]

  sort of independent you know I think you [TS]

  could easily be it well maybe not maybe [TS]

  they make you sign in with Amazon I [TS]

  don't know but I thought I was going to [TS]

  say that I think you can shop at Zappos [TS]

  and not even know that they're a [TS]

  subsidiary but yeah right and I think [TS]

  that that's fine fram's I mean as long [TS]

  as it's not someone else as long as they [TS]

  own it here's the thing that it doesn't [TS]

  surprise me but it's it it it still I [TS]

  still found it striking was how much of [TS]

  the reaction to the Amazon are the echo [TS]

  look the one that's a camera for you [TS]

  getting dressed was a sort of knee-jerk [TS]

  you think I'm putting a camera connected [TS]

  to the cloud in my dressing room you got [TS]

  to be kidding me [TS]

  um like a sort of knee-jerk I am NOT [TS]

  putting a computerised camera that you [TS]

  know uploads pictures to the web I don't [TS]

  you know that you don't trust it or [TS]

  whatever and I understand it and it you [TS]

  know it certainly is it's a reasonable [TS]

  concern that you'd want it to be private [TS]

  and you want it to come from a company [TS]

  that you trust and you know it common [TS]

  sense that you'd think you know at least [TS]

  think twice before you bought it and [TS]

  installed it [TS]

  but I think it's almost silly to take [TS]

  the point that you don't think that [TS]

  we're going to have cameras all over our [TS]

  houses soon like it's clearly that's [TS]

  where it's the only way to go yeah the [TS]

  other thing too is I mean is a is a [TS]

  camera really much worse than the echo [TS]

  itself I mean the the entire category is [TS]

  very but that's how we've acted that a [TS]

  couple years ago they just dies down it [TS]

  and I'm not saying that we should yeah I [TS]

  think you know I think anybody who knows [TS]

  me at all through the show or Darren [TS]

  fireball would would guess that I'm it's [TS]

  not like I rush headlong into new things [TS]

  without thinking about them you know in [TS]

  some ways on the lowercase C [TS]

  conservative a lot of it you know and I [TS]

  don't but you know I find out what I [TS]

  like it and I stick with it so I'm not [TS]

  drawn to new and shiny all the time [TS]

  but I feel like everybody's a little bit [TS]

  - in some ways it's good that there's a [TS]

  lot of people who are whose first [TS]

  concerns privacy as opposed to thinking [TS]

  about the cool things you could do with [TS]

  something like this but I'm reminded of [TS]

  God it must probably like 99 or [TS]

  something like that but way back you [TS]

  know around the the millennium when like [TS]

  Mac apps into Indy Mac apps first [TS]

  started adding features where they would [TS]

  phone home and just say like you [TS]

  couldn't even upgrade it would like [TS]

  sparkle the technologies where you can [TS]

  hit a button and have you know you're [TS]

  using version 3.1 version 3.2 is out [TS]

  would you like to upgrade you just hit a [TS]

  button and it downloads and upgrades and [TS]

  quits and relaunches and there you go [TS]

  you're running the new one but there [TS]

  were apps that would just just put a [TS]

  dialogue up and say hey there's a new [TS]

  version do you want to go to the website [TS]

  and download it and people freaked the [TS]

  fuck out because they were like what the [TS]

  hell you'd you know and and you know [TS]

  sniffing the network traffic and you [TS]

  know and and it's not like they were [TS]

  revealing anything but the fact that the [TS]

  app was phoning home with anything even [TS]

  just check the version was too much for [TS]

  people and there were people who would [TS]

  be like I'm you know and a minute I'm [TS]

  deleting this app I'm switching to a [TS]

  competitor because there's no way that [TS]

  any song [TS]

  where mine is going to phone home to the [TS]

  developer server even if it's just to [TS]

  check the Virgin and I I don't want to [TS]

  make fun of it too bad but I mean that's [TS]

  you know there is there an app that you [TS]

  use today that doesn't doesn't notify [TS]

  you when there's a new version and I [TS]

  feel like yeah we're going that way with [TS]

  microphones and cameras we are with us I [TS]

  think there's there's two sort of points [TS]

  to make one is your broader point in [TS]

  this is the most important point is this [TS]

  is sort of inevitable like we're going [TS]

  down this direction and the fact of the [TS]

  matter is that most people just don't [TS]

  care and and this applies to their [TS]

  online privacy it applies to and this is [TS]

  the big problem with with you know sort [TS]

  of fighting for for privacy when it [TS]

  comes technology products is that [TS]

  unfortunately people don't care and [TS]

  maybe at some point there will be some [TS]

  scandal that's so bad that is so big [TS]

  that it will actually become something [TS]

  that people care about but to date [TS]

  there's no evidence that that's going to [TS]

  happen people value convenience they [TS]

  just they just do and and related to [TS]

  that though that it actually is really [TS]

  concerning like the whole echo thing [TS]

  like I have I have echoes over my house [TS]

  but the actual like it's not really [TS]

  clear [TS]

  I mean amazon says that that they're [TS]

  that they're secure and all this sort of [TS]

  stuff but there's no really recourse for [TS]

  people if they were used badly like it [TS]

  really is just kind of trusting this [TS]

  massive corporation is going to do the [TS]

  right thing and uh and yeah obviously [TS]

  people can and will track their network [TS]

  and make sure that it's only sending [TS]

  when you know when Alexis triggered [TS]

  whatever might be and but then once it's [TS]

  on the servers you don't really know [TS]

  what's happening to it it really is a [TS]

  massive massive problem unfortunately [TS]

  it's a problem that absent some sort of [TS]

  like popular will it's hard to see [TS]

  anything being done about it right once [TS]

  you once your yo dingus you know turn [TS]

  out turn out the lights in the kitchen [TS]

  command goes there you have no idea [TS]

  where that audio [TS]

  and how long and lasts and what they do [TS]

  with it it's a bit as a black box so I'm [TS]

  not discounting the privacy concerns but [TS]

  I think and it's just like it's such a [TS]

  small example but just like how apps [TS]

  that can run a version check and notify [TS]

  you of a new version it is a trade-off [TS]

  of privacy where you know there is some [TS]

  information of yours that is going to [TS]

  the developer and they can you know [TS]

  maybe you know a lot of times send other [TS]

  things too like what model McIntosh [TS]

  you're on and how much RAM you have or [TS]

  something like that you're are trading [TS]

  some privacy by allowing the software to [TS]

  do it but in return you're getting [TS]

  something of such convenience it is so [TS]

  much that the days when you used to have [TS]

  to manually you know like follow you [TS]

  know there's to be a website like Mac [TS]

  update where you'd like part of my [TS]

  morning was go to Mac updating and what [TS]

  was the other one version version [TS]

  tracker you'd go to version tracker and [TS]

  just see if any of the software I use [TS]

  has a new version out and if so go go [TS]

  and update it yeah I mean that was [TS]

  actually part of my like daily routine [TS]

  it seems like madness at this point and [TS]

  you know there's so much of the [TS]

  convenience of these AI assistants the [TS]

  in were just just touching our toes in [TS]

  it like I don't know I the more I think [TS]

  about it and I know I've been talking [TS]

  about it a lot more on the show like if [TS]

  I were to go to a company like Apple or [TS]

  Microsoft or something or n8 or Google [TS]

  like what what would I want to be [TS]

  working on I mean until now it almost [TS]

  unquestionably what I would want to be [TS]

  working on is you visual user interface [TS]

  stuff for the GUI I think if I were [TS]

  there now I think the AI stuff would be [TS]

  what I would want to work on because I [TS]

  feel like there's so much potential [TS]

  there wasn't it's interesting about the [TS]

  echo and with the echo show is I think [TS]

  it's in some respects it was good for [TS]

  Amazon to watch with just the speaker [TS]

  because it sort of it was like the [TS]

  original Mac launching without arrow [TS]

  keys so you like you had to use the [TS]

  mouse and like the foundation of it [TS]

  being a voice interface was is baked in [TS]

  very very deeply and so now the show [TS]

  comes out and it has a screen but it's [TS]

  not a touch screen it's still all [TS]

  voice-controlled but it's a weird [TS]

  because if [TS]

  came out originally we say why there's a [TS]

  screen it's not touchscreen this is so [TS]

  weird in people like wouldn't really get [TS]

  how to interact with it now it's like oh [TS]

  wow it's so much so convenient is it you [TS]

  it's an echo with a screen like the [TS]

  whole framing in the way you think about [TS]

  the product is actually totally [TS]

  different because they it was a more [TS]

  sort of limited product to start out [TS]

  with I did not realize it was not a [TS]

  touchscreen I find that shocking it's [TS]

  not a touchscreen I know wow that's [TS]

  shocking to me I find that crazy I think [TS]

  that's a huge mistake I think there's [TS]

  all sorts of things that you'd want to [TS]

  do that you'd want to be able to touch [TS]

  to confirm or something like that [TS]

  wait ah yeah no that's I'm totally wrong [TS]

  it is a touchscreen oh I thought I [TS]

  thought maybe someone at Amazon had a [TS]

  stroke or something yeah I know I did [TS]

  that's funny I don't know I knew it's a [TS]

  touchscreen and I guess I got stuck in [TS]

  my head that was not a touchscreen the [TS]

  the the the point I was been meaning to [TS]

  make talk about it ordered altitude no [TS]

  way man we're living on the point I try [TS]

  to make though is the the primary means [TS]

  of interacting with it is is voice I had [TS]

  it been a touchscreen to start out with [TS]

  as I'm trying to say it would have it [TS]

  would have been much more limited than [TS]

  it is because every developers all the [TS]

  skills would have all been biased [TS]

  towards touch now they're all biased [TS]

  towards voice you can add on touch yeah [TS]

  that was weird I just completely [TS]

  hallucinate for like five minutes there [TS]

  I just wrote about it yesterday I wrote [TS]

  about of being a touchscreen I just [TS]

  think I do see your point that I see [TS]

  your point though that it is it is voice [TS]

  first and it matters what's first you [TS]

  know that the Mac being Mouse first [TS]

  influenced the design that the GUI in a [TS]

  way that if you could have treated it as [TS]

  keyboard first it that's how the [TS]

  software would have been written because [TS]

  that's how all the other software and [TS]

  all the other platforms was written [TS]

  right exactly exactly [TS]

  now is you could use an original [TS]

  Macintosh like if you had two of the [TS]

  original Macintosh side by side and one [TS]

  of them only had the mouse hooked up and [TS]

  the other one only had the keyboard [TS]

  hooked up you could get more done on the [TS]

  one that had the mouse hooked up and [TS]

  there might have been things that you [TS]

  couldn't even do on the keyboard one [TS]

  yeah you couldn't even get to the menu [TS]

  bar the only thing you could do in the [TS]

  menu bar was have the keyboard shortcuts [TS]

  memorized [TS]

  right and I mean in the long run day [TS]

  they brought them back and it's better [TS]

  it's better to have all you know the [TS]

  arrow he's there and right and whatnot [TS]

  but but as far as like getting the [TS]

  paradigm watch and and you know if had [TS]

  it been a touchscreen to start it would [TS]

  have you know it that's just kind of [TS]

  like it it was just a phone but worse [TS]

  because it's locked in went one spot in [TS]

  the to really drive home that it is a [TS]

  voice interface yeah I think they're [TS]

  better off starting there but that said [TS]

  the other thing though with the screen [TS]

  is I think this this calling thing we [TS]

  mentioned do talk board with the phone [TS]

  and stuff like that but I think there [TS]

  really is value to being able to just [TS]

  initiate a conversation and probably the [TS]

  most interesting thing here in here [TS]

  Amazon totally sort of ripped off one of [TS]

  their one of their companies like that [TS]

  they have a venture fund for like [TS]

  companies that enamel acts have built in [TS]

  there's company that built a voice [TS]

  communication device that has the echo [TS]

  built in and it's basically Amazon just [TS]

  completely Sherlock them it which is bad [TS]

  enough when its software and it's [TS]

  probably far more painful when it's [TS]

  hardware but once you have trusted [TS]

  people you can drop in which basically [TS]

  means you can initiate a call without [TS]

  there having to go through it like [TS]

  actually answer it or do whatever you [TS]

  you just be like sort of instant sort of [TS]

  thing now if that sounds terrible a lot [TS]

  situations but for me I'm in a different [TS]

  a separate office from down the street [TS]

  from from the house to be able just like [TS]

  turn on bail to literally drop in its [TS]

  someone if I was working from home to [TS]

  have some be able to you know come in [TS]

  the stop the door stick their head in [TS]

  it's the same sort of idea obviously [TS]

  you're not gonna use it all the time but [TS]

  the possibility I think is is compelling [TS]

  and interesting and fundamentally [TS]

  different from FaceTime fundamentally [TS]

  different from having to get your phone [TS]

  and pull it out for the kids to call you [TS]

  know grandma like something like this is [TS]

  really is more convenient than than [TS]

  having to use FaceTime mmm-hmm [TS]

  I forget what it was in the context on [TS]

  one of these things where I was like you [TS]

  know but just how crude all of these [TS]

  things whether whatever your favorite is [TS]

  you know the Alexa platform or Siri or [TS]

  Google or whatever it's so early days on [TS]

  them that will we will look back and you [TS]

  know this is like to the you know [TS]

  personal computer like what the Apple to [TS]

  was in 1981 you know its we're just at [TS]

  the tip of the iceberg but that you can [TS]

  see where we're going and I wrote that I [TS]

  know really what I want is I want like a [TS]

  c-3po but I thought about a couple days [TS]

  later I realized I was totally wrong [TS]

  that that's too much because the that's [TS]

  a having the actual like robot who can [TS]

  walk around is an entirely different set [TS]

  of problems for these AI assistants what [TS]

  I want is how from 2001 and I I wrote [TS]

  that and I feel like every time you [TS]

  bring up how everybody just goes [TS]

  immediately to yeah but he you know [TS]

  killed a bunch of astronauts and tried [TS]

  to kill the other you know tried to kill [TS]

  the last one too and had to be how'd it [TS]

  be put right on alright put aside the [TS]

  fact that he killed people [TS]

  hahaha and he but he did kill people for [TS]

  a very logical reason you know that I [TS]

  don't want to spoil the movie but it's [TS]

  you know and about it if you haven't [TS]

  watched doesn't what do you watch [TS]

  doesn't one but if you just if you think [TS]

  about the stuff that how does in the [TS]

  movie and how the astronauts interact [TS]

  with them it's exactly where we're going [TS]

  it is exactly the it is it it could not [TS]

  be a better [TS]

  everybody is racing towards how where [TS]

  it's not just a voice in a speaker where [TS]

  you can ask how you know what's what's [TS]

  the square root of 256 or something like [TS]

  that and get an answer it's that it's [TS]

  the home automation integration where [TS]

  you can say things like tell your dingus [TS]

  to you know close all the blinds if you [TS]

  have blinds that are hooked up to the [TS]

  smart house or something like that or [TS]

  change the color of your lights or [TS]

  something like that like that's how they [TS]

  ran the spaceship is they would tell how [TS]

  to you know open the pod bay doors or [TS]

  something like that like that's exactly [TS]

  where we're going with all these things [TS]

  and it's you know and you watch and one [TS]

  of the things that you know if Kubrick [TS]

  got so well in that movie is that they [TS]

  you know from the perspective of [TS]

  somebody watching it in 1968 it was like [TS]

  whiz-bang futuristic stuff like wow you [TS]

  can tell how to open the door and the [TS]

  door opens but the astronauts acted like [TS]

  it was the most normal thing in the [TS]

  world because they were used to it [TS]

  right [TS]

  anyway I think everybody needs to watch [TS]

  how and realize that that's exactly [TS]

  where we're going any other thing too [TS]

  about how was that and it would have [TS]

  been so easy from 1968 perspective to [TS]

  imagine how as a big refrigerator [TS]

  computing device that's located in like [TS]

  the bridge of the spaceship and did [TS]

  think of that you know because that's [TS]

  what computers were but how was [TS]

  everywhere right they were just little [TS]

  little red cameras all around the ship [TS]

  he was a system that was running [TS]

  throughout the whole ship right and [TS]

  that's exactly the model of like I mean [TS]

  in the Amazon tivity where you you you [TS]

  could sprinkle these dots throughout [TS]

  your house so that you know if you're [TS]

  upstairs or downstairs you can access [TS]

  the exact same system the other the [TS]

  other I completely agree I think it is a [TS]

  great example of of the what what [TS]

  everyone is going for the other point I [TS]

  would make I was just think about this [TS]

  in terms of FaceTime is Google launched [TS]

  a FaceTime competitor I came or what [TS]

  it's called [TS]

  um wowing or was it a low no hellos the [TS]

  chat app we have weirdly they launched [TS]

  two apps separately the Google duo yeah [TS]

  I mean it's a problem the problem with [TS]

  that is it's a separate app you have to [TS]

  go download it etc and it's work beyond [TS]

  you know why FaceTime is built-in [TS]

  now obviously the advantage is you can [TS]

  through I could go across platform then [TS]

  you're competing against Skype those [TS]

  which which has similar capability and [TS]

  it's just it's just a hard is it the [TS]

  Google's problem is always sort of the [TS]

  go-to-market how they actually get their [TS]

  products and technology into people's [TS]

  hands and you know obviously Android is [TS]

  one way to do that but then you have the [TS]

  the other cross people on iPhones [TS]

  download its anyhow it's hard my [TS]

  impression of Google from the outside [TS]

  and a load a load duo thing is a perfect [TS]

  example of it is that they're their [TS]

  company culture is so resistant to like [TS]

  product people [TS]

  you know like in and of itself there's [TS]

  nothing on product like about a lo or [TS]

  duo but there's clearly no overarching [TS]

  strategy connecting the two or otherwise [TS]

  they wouldn't exist as separate products [TS]

  but there's nobody I don't feel as [TS]

  anybody in position of authority to sort [TS]

  of crack that whip and and guide it it's [TS]

  you know it's just a thousand individual [TS]

  cats wandering around Mountain View [TS]

  doing whatever the hell they want yeah I [TS]

  I don't know it is it is it doesn't [TS]

  certainly does not seem ideal but the [TS]

  difference here with the with Alexa and [TS]

  this voice calling is because of this [TS]

  show device like there is actually a [TS]

  reason to download the app and to use it [TS]

  because there is capability that is like [TS]

  it's it's not just a ripoff it's [TS]

  actually doing something new and unique [TS]

  that is worth going to the trouble of [TS]

  downloading the app for and so it's [TS]

  actually I would argue much more of a [TS]

  threat in the long run to FaceTime than [TS]

  Google or Skype whatever even though [TS]

  those have the advantage of being [TS]

  cross-platform ello is not only [TS]

  cross-platform but also has this third [TS]

  dimension that makes you want to want to [TS]

  use it hmm yeah I can sort of see that I [TS]

  wonder how many people use a low I never [TS]

  really hear about it anymore seems like [TS]

  one of those things that you know an [TS]

  example using it well I mean this is a [TS]

  it's created for Google's benefit [TS]

  because they need a chat app right yeah [TS]

  like there's there's no market need for [TS]

  it like there are plenty of chat apps [TS]

  and this is the and you can't they added [TS]

  some features like you can't just tack [TS]

  on some features like you have to you [TS]

  have to create a fund like the echo show [TS]

  creates a fundamentally new use case for [TS]

  video calling because it's like this [TS]

  omnipresent object in a civil occasion [TS]

  like you know in a place where it [TS]

  actually makes sense yes it's kind of a [TS]

  landline and blah blah blah but you know [TS]

  you can't when you're wondering on your [TS]

  house and your phone with you to be able [TS]

  just shout out call whoever and you can [TS]

  call other echoes you can it's not just [TS]

  a show [TS]

  so you [TS]

  can call from echo to phone like there's [TS]

  it's a fundamentally new use case [TS]

  whereas these Google products had some [TS]

  new features but the actual use case was [TS]

  well served by plenty of other apps that [TS]

  were there early and it's even more [TS]

  difficult because it's a network [TS]

  products and the single most important [TS]

  feature the single most important [TS]

  feature of any chat app is do your [TS]

  friends and family use it like nothing [TS]

  else matters beyond that yep because [TS]

  it's it's like the old argument about [TS]

  you know who bought the first fax [TS]

  machine right who the hell are you [TS]

  getting faxes from you just bought the [TS]

  first one but all of a sudden if one guy [TS]

  across town buys the second one all of a [TS]

  sudden you've got something that's [TS]

  valuable I mean it has more value than [TS]

  it did when you each was the only fax [TS]

  machine on the on the phone network and [TS]

  this is what one thing was really [TS]

  interesting was when the whole messaging [TS]

  app like revolution would not it was [TS]

  very brief was like two or three years [TS]

  and what happened was it was really one [TS]

  sort of country by country and in [TS]

  countries which basically settle on one [TS]

  service and that was it and it was over [TS]

  like the fight was the it was done there [TS]

  was no more there's no more of a fight [TS]

  to be had and you had companies like we [TS]

  Chad and line spending all kinds of [TS]

  money trying to break into other [TS]

  countries but once you're already [TS]

  established absent absent some massive [TS]

  leap in functionality like the reason [TS]

  why messaging you know was such a big [TS]

  deal is that in nearly every country the [TS]

  world except for the US you have to pay [TS]

  for SMS and I think this is why they I [TS]

  still this is why the US thing is more [TS]

  fragmented and is much further much more [TS]

  behind as opposed to like message it at [TS]

  penetration I mean and why I message is [TS]

  probably the strongest the strongest [TS]

  network because it's piggyback on SMS [TS]

  but it's different it was different in [TS]

  almost every other country in the world [TS]

  we're not having to pay is a really [TS]

  powerful way to drive adoption right uh [TS]

  but once that was done once everyone is [TS]

  already using a chat app that lets them [TS]

  chat for free to get them to switch and [TS]

  not just switch one person because you [TS]

  have to switch everyone simultaneously [TS]

  at the same time is basically these all [TS]

  you know extreme [TS]

  be difficult alright the lack of [TS]

  foresight that the carrier's had by [TS]

  trying to milk the SMS revenue at the [TS]

  expense of well if we just give [TS]

  everybody free at the very least they're [TS]

  they're attached to the phone right then [TS]

  a right number and we've got we've got [TS]

  like a at least got a sticky platform [TS]

  like in the way that I message has been [TS]

  very very good Apple even though they've [TS]

  never once charged a send one of apples [TS]

  yeah right yes yeah I mean it's one of [TS]

  apples but III probably - uh Natasha [TS]

  before for sure I've complained about of [TS]

  exponents but people often ask like or I [TS]

  get emails whenever I write about [TS]

  messaging messaging apps and people like [TS]

  you know Oh Apple why is an iMessage [TS]

  in the stock price well you know we ten [TS]

  cent is worth X amount Facebook's worth [TS]

  X amount Facebook Apple stock should be [TS]

  higher because they have this this they [TS]

  have iMessage and I know [TS]

  iMessage is absolutely accounted for [TS]

  it's accounted for in the phone like it [TS]

  is a reason why Apple can maintain [TS]

  charge such high margins on the phone [TS]

  can maintain its share can be so [TS]

  dominant in iMessage is it's not the [TS]

  reason but it is a significant reason [TS]

  why people on iPhones continue to buy [TS]

  iPhones and so it's super valuable and [TS]

  it is accounted for [TS]

  it's just embedded in the iPhone yeah I [TS]

  do think it might be discounted in some [TS]

  ways but it's different than the [TS]

  independent messaging platforms like [TS]

  what do it make [TS]

  yeah but if you broke it out if I messes [TS]

  was actually available on Android and [TS]

  and why is that's all that matters yes [TS]

  maybe the iMessage category or whatever [TS]

  division would be worth a lot but the [TS]

  iPhone I think the cost that would be [TS]

  borne by the iPhone would actually be [TS]

  even greater than that [TS]

  right alright anyway when there was that [TS]

  rumor last year that Apple was going to [TS]

  ship uh I you know I message for Android [TS]

  I I do believe in fact I heard from [TS]

  people that they're absolutely [TS]

  positively were mocks that were floated [TS]

  within Apple but that doesn't mean that [TS]

  there was ever any serious intention to [TS]

  do it it's almost more like well [TS]

  why wouldn't there be why wouldn't they [TS]

  at least you know sketch out how it [TS]

  would work whether they have any [TS]

  intention of doing it or not but it just [TS]

  seemed to me so unlikely because it [TS]

  seemed to me like whatever they would [TS]

  get from it they would lose in the [TS]

  stickiness that my message gives to the [TS]

  phone in terms of yeah any kind of [TS]

  temptation you have if you have tons and [TS]

  tons of blue bubbles in your text with [TS]

  your friends and family any temptation [TS]

  you might have to switch to an Android [TS]

  phone when it dawns on you that you lose [TS]

  all those AI messages and everything [TS]

  goes green it's like it maybe not right [TS]

  and that's why they in that that's a [TS]

  motivation for making AI messages more [TS]

  and more have more and more features and [TS]

  and things like that I mean I think [TS]

  they've done a poor job of it but the [TS]

  motivation is to differentiate it from [TS]

  SMS even further so that yet to switch [TS]

  something else doesn't you know feel it [TS]

  feels like a terrible idea [TS]

  yeah I mean I I you know I'm not a I'm [TS]

  not a big fan of I don't like using [TS]

  Android in part I'm not used to it but [TS]

  there's there's little things that I [TS]

  don't like um that that kinda off the [TS]

  wall but without question the but I [TS]

  still I have a pixel now I've use [TS]

  Android phones occasionally but I [TS]

  messages without question the most [TS]

  straight-up frustrating aspect of using [TS]

  a Android phone for any period of time [TS]

  I don't like there's little stuff but I [TS]

  need with us a flirt or you can use [TS]

  student get over it you can't really get [TS]

  past their not being our message right [TS]

  but it's interesting to think of [TS]

  iMessage as a wholly owned proprietary [TS]

  to iOS and Mac OS to a lesser degree [TS]

  messaging platform that Apple owns and [TS]

  think about this and tell me if you [TS]

  think this is interesting hypothetical [TS]

  but what if when Instagram was on the [TS]

  market [TS]

  what if Apple had bought Instagram [TS]

  instead of Facebook and kept it [TS]

  io io s only is [TS]

  interesting I think of I I think it kind [TS]

  of is like in the way that people use [TS]

  you know that it that the blue bubbles [TS]

  are seen as having more status than [TS]

  green bubbles like imagine if there were [TS]

  tens of millions of people sharing [TS]

  photos on Instagram you know and you do [TS]

  only wait you couldn't even look at it [TS]

  unless you had an iPhone it is really [TS]

  interesting I mean because you're it's [TS]

  valued destructive uh you know II [TS]

  according like theoretically its value [TS]

  destructive to by a sort of like [TS]

  horizontal service and limit it to we're [TS]

  platform in the context of the service [TS]

  itself so like Instagram is worth what [TS]

  you know however a huge amount of money [TS]

  vastly more than Facebook paid for it [TS]

  they paid 1 million dollars I don't know [TS]

  what I pay 1 billion but I would I [TS]

  wouldn't be surprised if they tried to [TS]

  sell it now I would I mean I would think [TS]

  like 50 billion I don't know I mean it's [TS]

  all yes it's worth so much that it's [TS]

  almost you know you you have to it's a [TS]

  who whatever somebody would be willing [TS]

  to pay for it it's kind of like a value [TS]

  on it and and they'd be pay they be [TS]

  willing to pay a lot but so it would not [TS]

  be worth that it by itself but to your [TS]

  point by the time [TS]

  Android came out and which was like [TS]

  three days before Facebook bought it the [TS]

  momentum and sort of place that [TS]

  Instagram had in sort of like popular [TS]

  culture even with only having however [TS]

  many users it had it was it was it was a [TS]

  thing it was very much a thing just [TS]

  being on iOS and yeah I would it still [TS]

  be a thing I think that's sort of the [TS]

  longer-run question like would it be [TS]

  able to maintain that or would a [TS]

  cross-platform service really you know [TS]

  whether I mean snapchat would probably [TS]

  be much better shape today if if Apple [TS]

  had done that uh being a something [TS]

  that's more broadly accessible and um [TS]

  it's a really missing it's a religion [TS]

  point I Oh clearly Facebook would have [TS]

  been would have if Apple had bought [TS]

  Instagram Facebook would have done their [TS]

  best given we see what they do with like [TS]

  snapchat they would have tried seven [TS]

  different ways to copy Instagram you [TS]

  know whether it was with a their own new [TS]

  app or whether putting it in your [TS]

  regular Facebook feed you know just like [TS]

  they've copied snapchats stories gimmick [TS]

  like seven different ways so maybe it [TS]

  would have been Facebook somehow would [TS]

  have done it but I still think there's [TS]

  something interesting there and the idea [TS]

  would be that it would wouldn't [TS]

  necessarily like Instagram itself as an [TS]

  Apple subsidiary wouldn't be worth [TS]

  anywhere near what Instagram is worth [TS]

  today it's a Facebook subsidiary with [TS]

  all the so many more users but it might [TS]

  but with the iPhone be worth that one [TS]

  buy the iPhone might be worth more [TS]

  because people would be terrified of [TS]

  getting a different phone because they [TS]

  wouldn't be able to share their stuff to [TS]

  Instagram anymore and they've got 4,000 [TS]

  followers or whatever on Instagram and [TS]

  the only way they can keep that going is [TS]

  if they keep buying iPhones yeah and I [TS]

  can't help but think that that was I've [TS]

  never heard this from anybody so this is [TS]

  just complete speculation on my part no [TS]

  not single birdy has ever said anything [TS]

  to me but I thought it was so [TS]

  conspicuous I thought it right at the [TS]

  time that Instagram for Android shipped [TS]

  coincident with their acquisition from [TS]

  Facebook like it was only after the [TS]

  Facebook acquisition was made official I [TS]

  forget if like all the eyes were dotted [TS]

  ya know it was like the same week yeah [TS]

  you know I cannot help but think that [TS]

  Apple might have at least been at the [TS]

  table and you know the fact you know [TS]

  would be a lot easier to never have had [TS]

  an Android version than to sell the [TS]

  Apple right exactly exactly Android [TS]

  version and I think the only part of it [TS]

  that was even interesting to Apple was [TS]

  that it was iOS exclusive yeah and [TS]

  famously without without question yeah [TS]

  Instagram as it is today is not labeled [TS]

  it isn't wouldn't know he's not [TS]

  available Apple and you're in the end [TS]

  right that you're not any cutting at all [TS]

  right that's the funny thing is that [TS]

  Instagram is more valuable today but it [TS]

  wouldn't be more valuable to Apple it [TS]

  was only valuable to Apple as an iOS [TS]

  exclusive and it emphasizes their [TS]

  product marketing that that camera is [TS]

  better on the iPhone uh that you know it [TS]

  it kind of fit in yeah you know mr. [TS]

  Schiller shouldered deleted his [TS]

  Instagram account right after that the [TS]

  Android version the more you mention it [TS]

  yeah I think they probably should have [TS]

  done it again [TS]

  Instagram would not be worth what it is [TS]

  today as a part of Apple and it's very [TS]

  possible to your point another network [TS]

  will come along against and supplant it [TS]

  but would it be [TS]

  worth more than 1 billion dollars of [TS]

  value to the iPhone franchise without [TS]

  question I bet you don't have to sell [TS]

  that many marginal iPhones to to make up [TS]

  a billion dollars I mean my end yeah [TS]

  it's it's a really interesting point and [TS]

  even now today I may forget what year [TS]

  that was when that happened but even now [TS]

  today it's it plays even more into the [TS]

  camera emphasis of Apple's iPhone [TS]

  product marketing yeah absolutely [TS]

  yep I agree I agree is amiss I need the [TS]

  real the real shame is any script sold [TS]

  at all I mean the I feel like things [TS]

  would be so much healthier if I mean [TS]

  Instagram is really the purchase that [TS]

  cemented Facebook's dominance yep [TS]

  because it's its Instagram that that is [TS]

  it's different enough from Facebook in a [TS]

  way that it really the market need [TS]

  market niche that it's filling is uh is [TS]

  is really it was really a big a big hole [TS]

  for Facebook and it'd be nice was an [TS]

  independent company it's yeah yeah and [TS]

  it's it a terrific complement to [TS]

  Facebook and it's a better Twitter than [TS]

  Twitter in some ways or at least a [TS]

  Twitter it's a Twitter that knows and I [TS]

  love Twitter I do love Twitter and an [TS]

  Instagram is of course completely [TS]

  pointless and useless for something like [TS]

  news like as we speak today 24 hours ago [TS]

  we just found out that the Trump fired [TS]

  the head of the FBI it was a I'm sure I [TS]

  don't know if what you did if you were [TS]

  up maybe you were sleeping at the time [TS]

  but as soon as you found out about it I [TS]

  bet you went to Twitter right right I [TS]

  mean you know politics over there side [TS]

  when I found out that Trump fired head [TS]

  of the FBI is investigating his own [TS]

  campaigns ties to Russia I went to [TS]

  Twitter to see you know what were the [TS]

  news articles that were coming out what [TS]

  were people who I was opinion I value on [TS]

  such subjects Instagram has nothing to [TS]

  do with something like that you don't go [TS]

  to Instagram for breaking news but the [TS]

  problem that twitter has that's part [TS]

  that's that's part of history badly [TS]

  right right and that's part why people [TS]

  you know it it but it's Twitter like in [TS]

  that it's the same basic model that [TS]

  Twitter pioneered which is you [TS]

  you it's very simple it's it's brilliant [TS]

  it seems so obvious but nobody did it [TS]

  before Twitter which is you have a feed [TS]

  of the things you post and you pick [TS]

  people whose feeds you want to see and [TS]

  then when you look at the app you see [TS]

  all of the posts from the people who [TS]

  you've chosen to follow it you know in [TS]

  one stream and you scroll down and then [TS]

  when you get bored you hit one that [TS]

  you've already seen before you stop it's [TS]

  like they took that basic model and made [TS]

  something that was very self-assured and [TS]

  knew exactly what it was for and what [TS]

  people would do with it like people [TS]

  don't look at Instagram and say I don't [TS]

  know what to do with this like they'd [TS]

  like a lot of normal people do when they [TS]

  see Twitter they're like I don't know [TS]

  what I'm looking at right and the end [TS]

  photos are are such a and this is [TS]

  something that Facebook knew when they [TS]

  bought Instagram I mean Facebook was [TS]

  built on photos photo sharing but to [TS]

  take to be break that down just to a [TS]

  stream of individual photos and not only [TS]

  that is it super understandable super [TS]

  approachable and something people like [TS]

  but it went itself very obviously and [TS]

  easily to advertising and in a way that [TS]

  Twitter you know it's advertising on [TS]

  Twitter is is hard like yes you can have [TS]

  the promoted tweet thing but it's so [TS]

  like you're strolling past it so quickly [TS]

  and it's hard to really sort of get [TS]

  immersed in it and it's part you know to [TS]

  start to add more media in part because [TS]

  it makes a better canvas for advertising [TS]

  but just the way you use Twitter is not [TS]

  really amenable to it and Twitter's had [TS]

  zero luck getting any sort of direct [TS]

  response where you see something and you [TS]

  take an action that's just not how [TS]

  people think and operate when they're on [TS]

  Twitter where's Instagram you know [TS]

  you've had it there is successes you [TS]

  people like put products like people [TS]

  mall brands on Instagram because they [TS]

  know they like looking at products and [TS]

  sometimes they will look at a product I [TS]

  want to buy the product and it's another [TS]

  baking that possible no I've seen [TS]

  product I you know just watch stuff I [TS]

  follow a lot of watch accounts on [TS]

  Instagram like and for obvious reasons [TS]

  the watch stuff is way to me at least [TS]

  it's way more interesting on Instagram [TS]

  than it is on Twitter because it's all [TS]

  visual it's like hey you know take a [TS]

  look at this picture of a watch it's if [TS]

  you're interested in watches that's you [TS]

  know interesting whereas here's some [TS]

  text about a watches not really [TS]

  interesting I mean but yeah there's [TS]

  product shots they have [TS]

  thousands and thousands of likes it's [TS]

  you know thousands you know it's people [TS]

  definitely you know I for an advertiser [TS]

  to get likes under ad that's that's a [TS]

  huge deal [TS]

  like I don't all right like in the rest [TS]

  of the web you know they're trying to [TS]

  get people from blocking off their heads [TS]

  and whereas on Instagram they're looking [TS]

  for them and yeah I know is it no it's [TS]

  it's like no one is yeah exactly no one [TS]

  is I mean some people do complain about [TS]

  yeah you know as the getting the ads in [TS]

  front of people do plan Instagram to [TS]

  two-degree but um same thing with the [TS]

  sort of Facebook you know sort of feed [TS]

  there's the like what's so brilliant [TS]

  about these mobile advertisements and [TS]

  why they're actually it turned out never [TS]

  ever was how about Oh mobiles were so [TS]

  much less prioritized in desktops better [TS]

  Baba well it turned out actually no [TS]

  mobile was way more valuable you said to [TS]

  figure out the format right and what's [TS]

  so brilliant about the format of both [TS]

  Instagram and Facebook is you [TS]

  simultaneously have a much more of a [TS]

  grip on a user's attention like an ad on [TS]

  Facebook or Instagram literally takes [TS]

  over the entire screen of your device [TS]

  alright but it's a very but because it's [TS]

  embedded in this feed that you're going [TS]

  through it doesn't feel nearly as [TS]

  obtrusive as I'm looking at this article [TS]

  I'm looking at a web page on the on the [TS]

  browser right now on the back and [TS]

  there's this big banner ad on the side [TS]

  it's so annoying and it and despite the [TS]

  fact if you actually think about it it's [TS]

  not actually obstructing me at all right [TS]

  but it feels weird how that via the feed [TS]

  is such a perfect advertising vehicle [TS]

  right it it's as you know as you know as [TS]

  the inventor right it just makes [TS]

  intuitive sense to me in that it always [TS]

  had it always did from the moment the [TS]

  iPhone came out that of course it's [TS]

  eventually is going to be a terrific [TS]

  place to do advertising in some way like [TS]

  the hard part is only figuring out the [TS]

  right way but to discount it as less [TS]

  valuable ad you have to be a moron [TS]

  because it's obviously the device you [TS]

  only have to spend two minutes in 2007 [TS]

  you know looking at an iPhone original [TS]

  iPhone owners relationship with their [TS]

  phone and see that it's by far and away [TS]

  than the most emotionally attached [TS]

  computing device that they own it's [TS]

  right it's intimate and of course that's [TS]

  valuable it's super value and it's with [TS]

  them all the time [TS]

  if Crockett that not be more valuable [TS]

  you know it's again not I'm not saying [TS]

  it was obvious at all that something [TS]

  like inst you know Instagram I'd be a [TS]

  very wealthy man if I had come up with [TS]

  the idea for Instagram in 2007 but it I [TS]

  just knew though that there was some [TS]

  kind of opportunity there right right [TS]

  crazed actually a discounted just [TS]

  because you couldn't show the same type [TS]

  of ads that you could show on that on a [TS]

  on the desktop and write it yet let me [TS]

  take a break let me take a break here [TS]

  and think it our next sponsor unless you [TS]

  had a good point to make you have a good [TS]

  point [TS]

  now I now I know no good point point all [TS]

  right our third and final sponsor of the [TS]

  episode is our good friends at [TS]

  Squarespace look next time you have to [TS]

  do something new you got a new company [TS]

  you're starting you want to start a [TS]

  podcast your own podcast you want to [TS]

  start a blog your and it's it's may may [TS]

  be your student your graduating you want [TS]

  to put together a portfolio site of your [TS]

  work do it in Squarespace make your next [TS]

  move on Squarespace you want to make a [TS]

  website do it on Squarespace I'm telling [TS]

  you do it first by the time you spend [TS]

  half an hour trying it in Squarespace [TS]

  you'll be halfway to have in your thing [TS]

  done whereas if you did it by hand you'd [TS]

  still be you know learning PHP or [TS]

  something like that I'm telling you you [TS]

  can make your own website with [TS]

  Squarespace with no coding experience no [TS]

  programming experience no system [TS]

  administrator experience all of that [TS]

  stuff is all taken care of it's an [TS]

  all-in-one platform this is the thing I [TS]

  think people don't know don't get about [TS]

  Squarespace is that everything from [TS]

  registering your domain name to keeping [TS]

  the server running to collecting the [TS]

  stats that show you which pages on site [TS]

  people are going to and and stuff like [TS]

  that it's all there it's all in the [TS]

  platform so you don't have to do well [TS]

  you do this and then you have it's just [TS]

  hosted but then if you want to get stats [TS]

  you've got to install some other [TS]

  analytics package or something like that [TS]

  none of it all of it is right there in [TS]

  Squarespace platform [TS]

  and the thing I always keep emphasizing [TS]

  is they have all these templates to [TS]

  choose from but they have so many [TS]

  templates and the templates are so [TS]

  easily configured with your own graphics [TS]

  or fonts or something like that [TS]

  that your site doesn't look like a [TS]

  cookie cutter Squarespace site I [TS]

  guarantee you you you visit Squarespace [TS]

  sites every day and don't even realize [TS]

  they're Squarespace sites because they [TS]

  look original to the brands of the [TS]

  company whose site it is so next time [TS]

  you need a new website go to Squarespace [TS]

  calm and slash talk show and use the [TS]

  code Gruber my last name when you [TS]

  actually fork over the dough and you'll [TS]

  save 10% off your first order my thanks [TS]

  to Squarespace longtime sponsor the show [TS]

  good friends all right we got to get to [TS]

  China right this all right [TS]

  China right this all right [TS]

  no but you're on the show yeah III this [TS]

  is my busy season um by busy season I [TS]

  mean it's the NBA playoffs so I haven't [TS]

  had a chance to listen to the your [TS]

  episode last week where I think you [TS]

  discuss this by a little bit but it was [TS]

  it's what I wrote about was more you [TS]

  know if you read my article than here [TS]

  you know where I stand [TS]

  got it yeah I hope I represented you [TS]

  Farrah do you feel like I represented [TS]

  you fairly uh yeah I think so I mean I I [TS]

  still think I think the part where you [TS]

  disagree with me you're wrong which is [TS]

  fine because we can we can talk about it [TS]

  it should we should because I forgot [TS]

  jesting I would say that more like I got [TS]

  more hey I usually agree with you but I [TS]

  think you're wrong on this I got more of [TS]

  that for that that stance then anything [TS]

  that in recent memory [TS]

  which doesn't make me dig in my heels it [TS]

  makes me think there's a good chance I'm [TS]

  wrong about this yeah and this is one of [TS]

  the great things about writing for the [TS]

  web generally that like it like you've [TS]

  made this comment before and I've stolen [TS]

  it because I think it's such a great way [TS]

  to put it the goal I love being right [TS]

  but the way you're right is by fixing [TS]

  the parts when you're wrong right and [TS]

  having tons of people giving you [TS]

  feedback and is a great way to get right [TS]

  much more quickly than was ever possible [TS]

  before right I like to be right all the [TS]

  time and a way to be right all the time [TS]

  is to catch the times that you're wrong [TS]

  and correct them and right is it like [TS]

  that I totally stole that right like [TS]

  from you but I think it's a great way to [TS]

  think about right and too many people [TS]

  who want to be right all the time [TS]

  it's and let's say they're right most of [TS]

  the time it they're defensive about the [TS]

  times that are wrong and when they are [TS]

  wrong they you see it all the time you [TS]

  see it in politics you see it in tech [TS]

  you see that anything you follow but [TS]

  when they're wrong you can see it that [TS]

  they're digging in and trying to spin a [TS]

  way to make it that they're right [TS]

  whereas the racist thing in the world to [TS]

  do is to just publish an update and say [TS]

  you know what totally wrong yeah I mean [TS]

  I write these every now and then like I [TS]

  actually I like it in some respects when [TS]

  something comes along that I was wrong [TS]

  about and sometimes I'm factually wrong [TS]

  or I get and that's fine [TS]

  easy correction I just screwed something [TS]

  up or whatever I'm like saying that [TS]

  there's no touchscreen sometimes like I [TS]

  predictions are wrong or my analysis is [TS]

  wrong and in some respects I actually [TS]

  value that because as soon as that [TS]

  happens I will write a big post that I [TS]

  will say what I got wrong I'll say why I [TS]

  got wrong my thought process that went [TS]

  into it what part of my thought process [TS]

  in retrospect was incorrect and then the [TS]

  value that that accrues is not just that [TS]

  now I'm right but also you know it kind [TS]

  of gives you capital to say other stuff [TS]

  in the future because people will take [TS]

  you more seriously because even if you [TS]

  what you're saying is wrong like they [TS]

  they will know that you're you know you [TS]

  won you will correct yourself in the [TS]

  future but - there's a process that goes [TS]

  into it that it's not just sort of like [TS]

  shooting from the hip sort of thing so [TS]

  for me I actually think it's not just a [TS]

  benefit of the web I don't need an [TS]

  editor so although that's that is from a [TS]

  very sort of small perspective the case [TS]

  I think from a big perspective it's is [TS]

  one of the wonderful things about [TS]

  writing for a large audience yeah yeah [TS]

  and it's sort of I could have chose to [TS]

  you know like being happy what every [TS]

  once in a while when you you know after [TS]

  correct a pretty big error or just you [TS]

  know like oh I was convinced that it was [TS]

  all doors should open from the left but [TS]

  dude that's idiotic sometimes the door [TS]

  should open from the right he publishes [TS]

  you know you just say it like that it's [TS]

  sort of proof that the system works like [TS]

  I you know a way of you know I like to [TS]

  think that when I'm wrong I will [TS]

  recognize it instantly and you know [TS]

  swallow my pride and do what I can to to [TS]

  fix it as unambiguously as possible but [TS]

  if I don't do it for a while how do I [TS]

  know that I'm not even though I think [TS]

  that that's what I'm willing to do how [TS]

  do I know that I'm not just going into [TS]

  denial every time I'm wrong ya know [TS]

  exactly and this is something that I [TS]

  think about a ton like this idea of like [TS]

  confirmation bias where you're you [TS]

  always look for evidence that supports [TS]

  your position and and what it takes like [TS]

  a lot of like discipline to actively [TS]

  look for reasons why you might be wrong [TS]

  which I absolutely try to do [TS]

  but then also just having like I said [TS]

  the the fact you get instant feedback [TS]

  and people pushing back on you like [TS]

  forces you to to think about that I mean [TS]

  it's wonder yeah so any I'll is just [TS]

  stay sort of meta sort of commentary the [TS]

  oh so go ahead well I I think a good [TS]

  example of that I think probably the the [TS]

  review that I'm as a product review that [TS]

  I probably did the worst job on was the [TS]

  original Apple watch and that's why I [TS]

  like a month later I wrote like a second [TS]

  one was more or less the same basic idea [TS]

  of here's this new product from Apple [TS]

  what is it what do I think about it like [TS]

  the first one was just it I don't know [TS]

  it wasn't awful but it wasn't like [TS]

  poorly written but just I just never sat [TS]

  right with me and rereading it a month [TS]

  later I was like just I did I don't know [TS]

  it felt like a swing on a mess and I [TS]

  feel like part of the problem was that [TS]

  it was it was too much of a what's good [TS]

  about this product review whereas it [TS]

  should have you know it wasn't it was [TS]

  written from that perspective I don't [TS]

  know if that's quite confirmation bias [TS]

  but it's it Apple wouldn't do this if [TS]

  they didn't have a good reason to do it [TS]

  so what are those good reasons whereas [TS]

  think the story was more this is a you [TS]

  know especially that 1.0 watch was this [TS]

  is a product that doesn't really know [TS]

  what it's good for [TS]

  yeah yeah no I mean it's funny I I was [TS]

  all over the place on the watch my [TS]

  original take was that which is like [TS]

  this is a product that is lacking vision [TS]

  like it doesn't know what it is [TS]

  I think that's get more accurate [TS]

  writings I was then I went back and I in [TS]

  I actually fell into the like I had too [TS]

  much faith in Apple like dunno really [TS]

  are they really just watching this [TS]

  beautiful device and then that's really [TS]

  the point and and so I actually went [TS]

  back and changed my mind and that this [TS]

  very notorious contentious episode of [TS]

  exponent were being James arguing about [TS]

  it and then I and then eventually I [TS]

  didn't back my in this case my fix was [TS]

  actually wrong and worse and so I had to [TS]

  go back into like you know actually I [TS]

  had it right the first time and now it's [TS]

  a I hate that I hate that that happened [TS]

  especially because I actually had it [TS]

  right the first time but yeah I mean [TS]

  whatever it happens if you're giving [TS]

  your if you're giving your analysis or [TS]

  opinion four days a week you're going to [TS]

  get it wrong which is fine as long as [TS]

  you as long as you correct it so you you [TS]

  run in as we've spoken about this that [TS]

  we you don't right Stratego e is not [TS]

  it's the tech in general I mean and if [TS]

  you tend to fight against er tech reef [TS]

  so to take your attacker ease detectors [TS]

  a daiquiri tech about tech I honestly [TS]

  don't even do it to brass you I honestly [TS]

  have done it I though I make it a [TS]

  certain amount the mister I pronounce it [TS]

  differently at the beginning so I made [TS]

  it even worse is already a bad name and [TS]

  I made it worse so it's all 100 my fault [TS]

  but alas it is what it is so um I just [TS]

  tell people why people as what my slide [TS]

  I just um to search for Ben Thompson on [TS]

  Google because the that's the to don't [TS]

  Jason freed thing like we were talking [TS]

  about domain names like for years and [TS]

  years base camp [TS]

  they didn't have base camp comm they [TS]

  have it now but they just had basecamphq [TS]

  calm because he didn't yeah he didn't [TS]

  you know somebody had base camp dot-com [TS]

  and he didn't feel like paying their [TS]

  exorbitant price he did eventually but [TS]

  he was like screw it people just google [TS]

  for base camp anyway right it is true [TS]

  anyway I you've written about this like [TS]

  so you don't um it's certainly not your [TS]

  writing is not Apple focused it not even [TS]

  in a way that mine is but you certainly [TS]

  do right enough about apples simply [TS]

  because if you write about tech in [TS]

  general Apple is kind of a big company [TS]

  and they kind of do enter a lot of tend [TS]

  to do interesting things but you've [TS]

  spoken about this that when you write [TS]

  articles or have like a column that's [TS]

  sort of critical of Apple you you get [TS]

  like on subscriptions sometimes it so [TS]

  yeah I don't want to hear it no way [TS]

  that's always been the case I mean it [TS]

  was so when I started I wrote a lot more [TS]

  probably even more about Apple in part [TS]

  because that was the company I knew the [TS]

  best like I've been following closely [TS]

  I'd written like I'd written a huge [TS]

  paper about them in school uh like in I [TS]

  spent a lot of time trying to understand [TS]

  and think about what made them [TS]

  successful and I was saying in turn [TS]

  there um it at a university would in [TS]

  what God came to learn and understand so [TS]

  much about sort of the inner workings it [TS]

  was a fantastic experience and [TS]

  especially when I started also it was [TS]

  when the whole Samsung is gonna is [TS]

  disrupting Apple narrative was was in [TS]

  was in place [TS]

  and so I got tons of articles saying [TS]

  this is dumb like India trying to [TS]

  explain Apple and their differentiation [TS]

  and back then it was controversial to [TS]

  say that iOS it was not going to be [TS]

  swamped by Android and developers [TS]

  working awfully on mass and all the sort [TS]

  of stuff like that was still a thing [TS]

  back then yeah so I am an iPhone dead in [TS]

  the water Henry Blodgett right right and [TS]

  and the biggest you know as I've [TS]

  recounted the sort of biggest event in [TS]

  the early church every day's for gaining [TS]

  readership was you linking to me and [TS]

  saying you know this is a fantastic new [TS]

  blog and you wink too much are a bunch [TS]

  of articles and as per kind of like this [TS]

  column this week like oh this is a great [TS]

  blog the really good biloba but for the [TS]

  first time I disagree with mr. Thomson [TS]

  that he like explained where explain [TS]

  where I was wrong um which but that was [TS]

  an outright disagreement though not this [TS]

  time this time it's like I said it's a [TS]

  subtle difference of of wait I would say [TS]

  yeah and I actually I actually think [TS]

  you're right in that case um and so it [TS]

  was definitely right back then I was [TS]

  just waited that's the I was just really [TS]

  I was just waiting for you to make a [TS]

  mistake and then I knew I could link to [TS]

  you because then instead of just saying [TS]

  how great it was I could also point out [TS]

  that you made an error and you're [TS]

  thinking I was just a hit for it would [TS]

  the the lot of service always sort of my [TS]

  initial and then after that I got linked [TS]

  to by Marco a couple times and so I [TS]

  really started in the sort of Apple [TS]

  blogosphere is where awareness of me [TS]

  started to grow so a lot of my initial [TS]

  followers were were in that in that [TS]

  arena so if that's forward like a year [TS]

  or something and I wrote something about [TS]

  Apple and services and basically I was a [TS]

  this was a I said it was in a good point [TS]

  it's a point that I brought up again and [TS]

  again is how companies are sort of [TS]

  shaped by their by their origin and [TS]

  they're there and that influences the [TS]

  culture and the way they approach [TS]

  products for the entire life of a [TS]

  company and I gave talk about Google [TS]

  talked about Microsoft talked about [TS]

  Apple talked about a bunch of examples [TS]

  and this case I was make trying to [TS]

  explain that Apple struggle with [TS]

  services not because they're dumb but [TS]

  because they're so great at products and [TS]

  this is a point you know obviously I've [TS]

  returned to this point in the past like [TS]

  to say that Apple strove the services is [TS]

  not to criticize Apple or say they're [TS]

  dumb people it's [TS]

  in a recognition that the same things [TS]

  that make Apple the best product company [TS]

  an amazing product company work against [TS]

  being a great services company right ETL [TS]

  people didn't want to hear after people [TS]

  did not want to hear it so I had just [TS]

  started the daily update then and so my [TS]

  you know my subscriber numbers were in [TS]

  the you know I think at that point as [TS]

  only a couple months in so maybe the low [TS]

  hundreds and I got like 20 or 30 like [TS]

  unsubscription like immediately people [TS]

  were met and it was it was shocking like [TS]

  I did not expect that to come at all um [TS]

  it was good it was a good lesson to [TS]

  learn like the people were cared more [TS]

  about Apple than they did about me and [TS]

  that's fine I have no no problem with [TS]

  that and over time you know certainly [TS]

  I've come to build up you know a user [TS]

  base and when the great things why model [TS]

  is it's ten dollars a month so if you [TS]

  want to quit it doesn't really affect me [TS]

  my life in the slightest which is great [TS]

  but I actually love that about about [TS]

  this model but yeah it's funny whenever [TS]

  I write something that is not purely [TS]

  optimistic about Apple there is [TS]

  definitely an uptick in people turning [TS]

  off auto renewal and there are other [TS]

  subscriptions I've seen it on sports [TS]

  - like I follow some Yankees beat [TS]

  writers on tweeter