Hello Internet

H.I. #82: God of Bees


  are you ready for my prepared statement

  about the news Brady have you been right

  it's like what you've been doing the

  last three or four days just just just

  handing it that's right yeah I have a

  have an opening statement about the news

  okay there's 20,000 words and I will I

  will truck no direct response afterward

  put a big piece of gaff tape over my


  I have penguin news this is gonna be

  penguin ooh

  a shaggy dog story okay I'll get

  comfortable and I've thought about how

  to tell that but I've decided to tell it

  chronologically so you can experience it

  as I experienced it so very very quick

  background ER for people who are new to

  the podcast a couple of years back now I

  think it was gray and I were involved in

  a fundraising event at Bristol Zoo

  raising money for South African penguins

  which I found I actually have the

  nickname jackass penguins because of the

  noise they make which was new

  information to me okay anyway and to

  thank us for helping with the

  fundraising the zoo took the very

  unusual step of naming one of their

  newborn penguins

  CGP grey this was only the second time

  they've ever named a penguin the other

  one that has a name is the generic one

  that anyone who sponsors penguins gets a

  certificate about so having a name was a

  big deal we were very grateful and I

  promised to sort of follow the Penguins

  progress and I have to admit besides

  getting some video of its first weigh-in

  and revealing the fact that the penguin

  was a lady mm-hmm that was pretty much

  the last we spoke about

  CGP grey the lady penguin yes you gave

  me a bit of a ribbing about not

  following it very closely but anyway

  only because you said you were going to

  take up the mantle of regular reports

  otherwise I would I would not have

  ribbed you okay Hey look I deserve I

  deserved it I'll take it you got you got

  me anyway some news came to hand a few

  weeks ago who was spotted by the Thames

  not by us that as a result of a tragedy

  in the capital of Georgia city called

  Tbilisi where there was serious serious

  flooding in which many humans died but

  it also was very very devastating

  for their zoo they lost many many of

  their animals and as a result the people

  that oversee zoos in Europe asked all

  the other European zoos to help them

  repopulate their animal population and

  Bristol Zoo was kind of requestor but

  also kind of instructed because how it

  works to give a certain number of their

  penguins to Tbilisi zoo which Bristol

  Zoo did this came to our attention and

  of course the first thing we wondered

  was was CGP grey among the Penguins

  shipped to Tbilisi and we didn't know

  there's the background what has happened

  since here we go okay it was story all

  right so the story has not yet begun the

  story hasn't again that was the vectra's

  was the background okay yeah now in true

  investigative nature some some of the

  more zealous fans of the podcast started

  trying to make contact with Tbilisi Zoo

  and I saw on reddit someone had

  contacted the zoo through Facebook and

  said is CGP grey the penguin with you

  this is easy to find out because CGP

  grey the penguin has a name tag or a

  number tag on the wing a two oh five

  eight three right it's the wing number

  anyway so you could look up databases in

  there and the word from Tbilisi was

  apparently this was their answer I

  couldn't read it because it wasn't in

  English but their answer was CGP grey

  the penguin is not here apparently the

  zoo has a popular penguin that it wasn't

  willing to send presumably CGP grey so

  CGP grey is still in bristol uh-huh and

  there was all chat on reddit about her

  and it was problem solved and well done

  and a second person said actually my

  mum's friend works at Tbilisi Zoo

  amazingly they also made some inquiries

  and confirmed that CGP grey wasn't set

  okay I had been trying to contact

  Bristol Zoo I'd sent some emails to

  various people in their media department

  I wasn't getting replies I wasn't happy

  about not getting replies you were not

  getting the reserved don't say it I just

  want to say cuz I like I know that tone

  of voice I like these people are not

  responding to my emails quick

  enough I know I know how you get pretty

  anyway and then I thought this is not

  the brainy way to be crowdsourcing

  hearsay on reddit or to be waiting for

  press people to maybe reply and maybe

  not especially when the zoo is only 20

  minutes from my house so I this was a

  call to arms and I thought I'm not just

  gonna sit here I'm gonna be a man of

  action I'm going to go to the zoo I'm

  going to find the penguin so I got my

  camera with my long lens Wow

  so okay so I could zoom in I've got a

  special new super long lens and you know

  I'm not going to deny I made bit of a

  hoo-ha on Twitter and on snapchat about

  it made a big deal saying that's it I'm

  coming to the zoo this ends today I said

  I took pictures on the way as I crossed

  the suspension bridge and I was going in

  so I'm you know I was I was not quiet

  about the fact I was doing this were you


  snapchat story about it were you doing

  that I was I wasn't a snapchat story I'm

  okay lie so I arrived at the zoo half

  expecting them to be waiting for me

  right with a red Carson head I

  understand yeah well no not necessarily

  the red car but I thought maybe it would

  be a bit more defensive than that the

  people on Twitter had seen my comments

  and it's at all well we've seen your

  email and we're going to get back to you

  and I'm like now you've had your chance

  and I've played on went straight to the

  penguin enclosure long-lens uh-huh

  and actually it was feeding time when I

  got there and I said to the woman

  feeding Oh have you said I'm looking for

  a specific penguin and she was like she

  wasn't having any of it she was like oh

  I'm not the usual penguin keeper I can't

  help ya she could hey I just love I love

  the idea from this person's perspective

  that like a crazy man with a telephoto

  lens like I'm here for a specific

  penguin yeah yeah anyway so I got out

  the long lens and I started zooming in

  on and then there's loads of penguins

  there yeah then it turns out it turns

  out even with the long lens it was quite

  hard to read the numbers and also the

  penguins don't make your job any easier

  like they face the way they want to face

  branding that's it that's the way they

  can her face so I was always waiting for

  penguins to turn around but sometimes

  the wing tag is flat the wrong way

  around and it's in there like wing pit

  like in that

  okay and so for those ones I had to wait

  for them to flap their wings to even get

  a look at the number some of them didn't

  seem to have a number they just had like

  a a wing band with no number written on

  ER and I was wearing that might be CGP

  grey huh and just as I was giving up

  hope this penguin steps out from behind

  the wall and I look at the number that's

  the number I've been looking for ends

  with the three and it's got all the

  thing I start taking loads and loads of

  pictures of it it even starts posing for

  me I go onto snapchat and say look who

  it is and I like put a fun thing and I

  you know make a big deal that I've found

  the penguin huh then I think I haven't

  got that I haven't got the killer photo

  yet of the wing number on the thing so I

  decided to get one more number before

  leaving the zoo and when I go for that

  photo and I look closely it turns out

  that's not the number that uh it's out

  by one digit it looked just like the

  number but it was out but I double

  checked I found my mistake okay so they

  actually do just number them

  sequentially they don't have check

  digits or anything like that I don't

  know this was a very similar number so

  anyway back to square one some of them

  are sleeping in their little hatches and

  things I'm having to wait for them to

  come out I must have been there 45

  minutes and then suddenly these two

  people appear behind me and this is a

  older man and a younger lady who it

  turns out is the social media manager

  for you know the Twitter person and like

  the head of communications with the zoo

  and they're like oh you're Brady and I'm

  like yeah I am

  I was really friendly really friendly

  yes I am I'm here looking for CTP great

  the penguin and they're like yeah to me

  you know can we have a chair and I'm

  like yeah yeah sure we can late and they

  wanted to take me away from the penguin

  enclosure and I'm like oh we can chat

  here and they're like no no let's go for

  a chat

  oh they took me ahead of the enclosure

  we went cells bench right they want you

  to have a seats there for a moment

  before we talk to you yeah okay mmm and

  I say before we go like is my penguin

  there I want to take a picture of CGP

  Grey and they say no it was you know in

  the gone to Tbilisi and I'm like oh

  that's great I thought they was scared

  that I was going to be upset they'd sent

  it to Tbilisi mm-hmm so I said don't

  worry like gray and I'll be really happy

  if it's going to timbala see we think

  it's a really good story etc etc you

  know we like that you know we'd like the

  story then Merc head of communication

  says well unfortunately CGP grey the


  and died on the trip to Tbilisi there

  were 19 penguins sent three of them

  actually died on this trip and one of

  them CGP grey the penguin and I tell you

  I have never I cannot think of a weird

  time in my life then sitting on this

  bench at the zoo with these two zoo

  employees either side of me and it was

  like in the movies like when the surgeon

  comes out and says yeah that's that's

  what it feels like that's what it feels

  like it was just like that or like when

  the police come and it was like and it

  was really difficult because like they

  would devastate to have to do this I

  felt really bad for them and I was kind

  of having to console them and I was

  saying putting the armor inside don't

  worry about it look you know this these

  things happen and they're like we're so

  sorry we should have told you we should

  have told you we were moving it and we

  should have told you what happened and

  we're really you know we really said

  that the Penguins died and was this

  really weird thing and then they got

  like the head of birds for the zoo to

  come and meet me and give me like the

  full story of everything that happened

  and his assistant and we're having this

  big long talk and we ended up talking

  for like half an hour in great minutiae

  about everything and then then I was

  like well all right I guess I'll be

  going now then sorry sorry that this

  happened and I left the zoo and CGP grey

  the lady penguin has died I feel very

  strange about this I tell you what I the

  more I think about it the sadder I feel

  because you know when that was just a

  baby we were there we saw it I feel

  attached to it I made that cute video of

  it with the cute music as a baby I

  posted the footage of it being weighed

  and I feel this real attachment and I

  feel I feel sad when any animal dies but

  I feel especially sad about this mmm-hmm

  wondering about those numbers for zoo

  animal transport like those seem like

  pretty high fatal numbers you said

  nineteen penguins went and three of them

  died in transit yeah it seems like a

  high percentage I was told that birds

  dying in transit is more common than say

  a gorilla right okay I have a somewhat

  like if you send 20 gorillas and you

  lose three of them it's really

  concerning I

  receive an autopsy report the zoo with

  all the details they haven't got it yet

  they've actually promised to give me a

  full briefing when they find out what

  happened they don't know exactly what

  happened themselves this is for real

  autopsy going to be done about this well

  there's some kind of report yeah

  apparently that has to happen I guess

  that makes sense that if you're

  transporting zoo animals back and forth

  the sending zoo is going to want to know

  the details it's just it just never

  occurred to me but it's serious it's

  very serious

  so I feel like I have to put this on

  record and fairness to the zoo because

  this is basically a publicity stunt gone

  terribly terribly wrong because of all

  the Penguins that could have died the

  one that like has this like really

  popular podcast following it and this

  like silly guy who made the big ruckus

  on Twitter and stuff mm-hmm

  I feel really sorry for them that they

  tried to do a good thing it's like blown

  up in their face and it's and it's made

  this penguin dying an even bigger deal

  than it would have been mm-hmm and I

  also want to say everyone has different

  views about the rights and wrongs of

  zoos and I can see all sides of the

  story but I do have to point out that

  the zoo does a lot for penguins the

  reason we were raising money for them is

  they have this special program will they

  send their experts to South Africa every

  year and they like rescue all these

  hatchlings and then hand reer them and

  release them back into the wild

  so like this zoo has an above-average

  interest in the welfare of South African

  penguins yeah so for us now to be doing

  a podcast about a penguin that they were

  transporting died I feel a bit sorry for

  them because they're try and do the

  right thing by penguins and it's kind of

  this has kind of gone a bit wrong so I

  feel like I should say that I also have

  taken lessons from it myself good and

  bad okay

  would it would have you learn really my

  first lesson is maybe be a bit more

  careful before you make a big ruckus on

  social media is love what do you mean

  because I was like oh this ends today

  and I was going in there all guns

  blazing and everyone was saying we can't

  wait to find out Brady what's the news

  and then suddenly I was like confronted

  by this horrible outcome mm-hmm and I

  didn't want to then like tweet

  or snapchat hey that the penguin has

  died right which is what had happened

  uh-huh so I kind of had to go quiet

  while I thought about it and that was

  just like getting people more and more

  fired up the suspense is killing us

  where's the penguin how is she maybe I

  played my hand a bit early on the on the

  social media side of things I can see

  how this particular time this worked out

  as an unfortunate outcome for you uh I

  don't think this is like a general

  lesson to learn from the situation like

  it is a lesson gray you know because

  this is not the first time this sort of

  thing has happened to me admittedly

  social media but like I remember this

  another thing that happened to me once

  twice in the course of a week I'd been

  trying to contact you know some of my

  academics around the university about

  making films and sometimes I just wander

  around the university and go to their

  offices just for a chat and I walked

  past a few of the offices of people I'd

  been emailing for a while and one of

  them I walked in and said hey how you're

  doing like jokey I was like why aren't

  you replying to my emails I emailed you

  like three or four times in the last few

  months what's going on and then he was

  like my mum died a few weeks ago and

  then I was like ah sorry and like that

  explains why you're not replying to my

  emails then so I was like maybe I should

  have been a bit more sensitive about not

  replying to my emails and then like a

  few days later the exact same thing

  happened with another academic and I

  made the same joke and again he'd had

  like I think it was a parent died as

  well so I don't know maybe I'm just

  unlucky perhaps there is a distinction

  to be drawn in the difference between

  the lack of Correspondence from a human

  being and the lack of Correspondence

  from a penguin it hadn't occurred to me

  that because of all that stuff that had

  been going on on reddit the idea that

  the penguin could have died had gone out

  of my head right right one never thinks

  of penguin mortality does one write

  until you have to face it directly I'm

  not like going through like you know the

  stages of grief or anything because it's

  just it's just penguin but I am also

  wondering whether I'm partly to blame

  because if I had done more that penguin

  in terms of coverage and publicity would

  it have become so valuable to the zoo

  that they would not have dared even

  Transporter like if it had become more

  famous did I not make it famous enough I

  think that's undeniable that is true

  if the penguin had been promoted more

  with updates about her weight and her

  health over time and and you had sent

  more people to the zoo through your

  efforts you could have saved her life do

  not think there's any way that isn't

  true like it has to be true that that's

  the case even if I just cold about it

  more often they would have thought

  because one of the things they were so

  sorry about was they were saying we're

  so sorry we didn't tell you it was being

  moved we probably should have told you

  but if I was someone who like you know

  called about it every month and stuff

  they would have known I was watching and

  maybe not had center so yeah that's true

  awful is true I think your negligence

  definitely does have a hand in this

  Brady I think there's I think there's no

  way around that

  by the way just to be clear I did say

  this earlier the zoo kind of did have to

  send penguins to tibula see this is how

  this is how Sue's work by the way like

  there's an overarching body that looks

  after breeding populations and what

  animals go where and if this body says

  you're sending animals here and there

  that's pretty much binding as long as

  where you're sending it is like a legit

  proper zoo and you and it was so yeah

  yeah that's totally understood I saw a

  few things on the reddit where people

  were actually discussing that about how

  I didn't realize that's video that

  there's like a it's like a meta su

  organization that directs the transport

  of animals around like you said for

  breeding populations against one of

  those things like it makes total sense

  once you think about it that that would

  exist it's in the interest of all zoos

  to mix their animals more than they

  would be mixing just within the zoo yes

  but yeah but yeah you can see like it

  becomes a kind of contract where there's

  meta organization directs the movement

  of animals around so okay I'm not I'm

  not holding the zoo in any blame at all

  I'm just saying that you're basically

  just blaming me yeah yeah that's that's

  exist to make it really clear it's not

  the zoo's fault if Brady had acted

  differently could things be different

  the answer is yes that's undeniable

  there's one more lesson from this okay

  this is a lesson to me kind of about

  journalism but also about you could you

  could talk about this in other aspects

  of life and it reminded me of lessons I

  learned in my early days and this I'm

  not making this part of our earlier

  discussions about the media and

  journalism this has nothing to do with

  any of that this is just a general thing

  about being a journalist okay and there


  the best journalism always comes from

  getting off your butt and going to the

  place because I thought the problem had

  been solved by this reddit Facebook

  stuff and also I thought I'll probably

  get an answer from the press department

  eventually although it didn't look like

  I was doing it but really I didn't get

  to the bottom of things as terrible as

  it was until I just like turned up and

  gotten faces and started counting

  penguins and looking at numbers and like

  being there on the spot and making them

  actually come and see me and looking

  people in the eyes and having the

  discussion and it doesn't just apply to

  journalism applies to lots of other

  things in life like if you sit around

  and wait for stuff to get done by other

  people or nothing beats if it's feasible

  and possible going there and being there

  and being on the spot because you always

  find out more and you always get closer

  to the bottom of the things if you are

  like at the place the hello internet

  nation is indebted to your journalism on

  this particular issue really well I wish

  I wish I was the bearer of better news

  but that do you know what when I first

  started as a journalist you know I would

  interview and did lots of things over

  the phone because that's the way things

  work quite often but then often you need

  photographs to go with it and we would

  have these forms you would fill out and

  give to the photograph editor saying I

  need a picture of this or this place or

  this person and you'd organize it all

  and set it all up and then you'd fill

  out the form with the addresses and the

  phone numbers and the times and that and

  there was a box you would tick to say

  whether or not the journalist was going

  on the story or not whether the journals

  wanted to go with the photographer to

  sort of director or maybe you hadn't

  interviewed the person yet so you needed

  to be there so it was a yes or no and I

  would always tick no because I don't

  know maybe a little bit of laziness and

  a little bit of shyness you know I was I

  was still that younger journalist who

  was a bit who wasn't that confident I'll

  always take know and I remember one time

  the photo editor sort of took me to one

  side because I got along really well

  with him and he said you should go on

  some of these stories more often because

  it's good to go there and like see

  things and you know it'll make your

  stories better so then I started ticking

  yes more often and I would just go even

  though I'd spoken to these

  people on the phone often and I already

  knew the story I would go along just to

  be there for the photo shoot and I found

  that so valuable and so interesting and

  it always I always found it so mitt so

  much more amazing stuff and interesting

  stuff and like my stories became so much

  better by doing it that it just became

  my rule when I would take yes for

  everything like no matter what it was I

  just wanted to go and see the stuff and

  be part of the story it got to the point

  where a year or two later the photo

  editor pulled me aside and said do you

  actually have to go on all these stories

  because it's really inconvenient for me

  for the photographer's to always have to

  come back and pick you up and take you

  so it backfired on him but it was a

  really good lesson there's a really good

  lesson if you're doing anything and you

  feasibly can go there there's a lot to

  be said for I like that your enthusiasm

  was causing logistics problems for ya

  the organization that you're working for

  his like yeah okay buddy it's good to be

  enthusiastic but not this enthusiastic

  yeah we're just taking it and we're just

  taking a photograph of the person

  sitting at that desk do you have to be

  there yes I want to be there I could ask

  good query to do a ride-along once every

  couple months right but yeah it's not

  every day not twice a day not three

  times a day that's not what we were

  looking for yeah anyway I there we go

  CGP grey the lady penguin rest in peace

  rest in peace gone to that great rocky

  outcrop in the sky gone to a farm in

  upstate yeah I figured some I figured

  some rocky outcrop in the middle of the

  sea is the penguin equivalent of the

  farm no it's all the farm all the

  animals go to the farm together that's

  how that works that's what they could

  have done they could have put me on that

  bench and said

  CGP grey the penguin isn't here and

  isn't it Tbilisi she's gone to a special

  magical zoo for the firemen Tbilisi

  shall be we shall be running through the

  forest the happy penguin okay that

  doesn't make any sense don't question it

  too much man don't question it we're

  just telling you a story here we need to

  think of something to do about this gray

  I feel like it can't end here what do

  you mean I don't know I feel like this

  can't be the end of the story

  all stories come to an end and death is

  an ending I'm not sure what you're

  looking for here Brady yeah

  with those people who like that timing

  how long it takes

  death to come up in our podcast are

  gonna got a cracking opening opening for

  the Miss time don't we opening stories

  about that when I was thinking about how

  to tell the story like obviously I had

  to tell you and the listeners about this

  I was thinking do I tell it

  chronologically how it happened to me or

  do I just say it from the start look

  before I start the story who the penguin

  is dead and now here's how I found out

  because I was a bit worried as I told

  the story you'd be mr. jokey I Brady

  you're so funny and like you'd be

  laughing and stuff and then like I drop

  the bomb and then you'd feel bad about

  being jokey because that's what happened

  to me you know I was joking about it all

  the time and making a big joke at the

  whole thing yeah yucking it up on social

  media right right right right and check

  that you're gonna have to cache later no

  so I didn't want to put you in the same

  position but I felt like you should

  experience it as I experienced it I

  think there was the appropriate choice

  there breathing and you also had that

  moment that I had when they said

  actually no we want to talk to you

  somewhere else but yeah I know there's

  never good right there this ah ah okay

  whenever whenever people say they want

  to talk to you like how many times is

  that good news the answer is never right

  it's never good news and they literally

  took me somewhere where I could sit down

  yeah yeah if they want to talk to you

  and they also want to change locations

  that is never good right these just you

  just know you know something something

  bad is about to happen there so Marty

  black stump is ticking along there's

  been a lot of online investigations into

  the height of Marty black stump versus

  Telstra house people seem to be in in

  the same way they were relying on sort

  of redder and the internet to figure out

  what happened to the penguin they seem

  to be using sort of you know all this

  Google Earth and visualization stuff to

  settle the matter of which building is

  taller which I don't think is going to

  provide an adequate solution yeah all I

  want to know is if there's if there's

  somebody out there with I don't know

  what are those things people use like

  the little triangle things to measure

  this like the old a lot or something

  like yes okay so one of those things

  right yeah you see them in like old

  manuscripts that's what I want I want a

  dude with one of those measuring Heights

  in Adal

  that that's all we need I want sketches

  I want triangles

  I want trigonometry yeah parchment the

  sketches on a parchment would something

  like that that's that's a we near

  blueprints the thing that is crucial

  here Telstra house which claims to be

  one metre taller it does seem to make

  sense that would be one meter taller

  because it was built a lot later and why

  would you build a new building in

  Adelaide and not make it the tallest

  when you were so close

  you would chuck an extra meter on there

  just for bragging rights yeah of course

  even though it only held the title for

  one year before the other building came

  along but the problem is the mighty

  black stump has this antenna on top that

  Telstra house does not and the antenna

  clearly makes the mighty black stump

  taller if you include that and this

  leads to this can of worms about how do

  you define the height of a building and

  this is a huge issue there's a great

  Wikipedia article about it as there is

  about everything this is not a new

  debate this has been going on since they

  started building skyscrapers really from

  the moment the builders of the Chrysler

  Building put that cheeky spire on top

  that they hadn't told anyone about so

  that they could take top spot and they'd

  head the spire until the last minute

  like do you count antennas

  do you count spires is it from the

  architectural top of the building what's

  the difference between a spire and an

  antenna is that the highest level that

  people can actually habitate you're

  always a guy that has opinions if you

  were defining the height of a building

  what would you use is your cutoff point

  so thinking about this earlier today I

  think there's only two choices to go

  with hmm one is the ground height to the

  top of the structure including antennas

  or spires or whatever just anything

  that's physical anything that's physical

  I think that counts right like okay I

  think that's one measure to do is just

  like if a kid is asking how tall a

  building is I think that's their their

  idea the tallest point but I was

  thinking though I actually like the

  definition that it is

  it's not actually the top of the

  building it's the top most part of the

  building that is like where a person can

  stand that isn't maintenance right

  that's the usable part of the building

  that to me seems like a non Chiddy way

  to talk about what is the tallest

  structure I feel like those are the two

  things that I would go with like what is

  the the place at which someone can

  either have an office or an apartment at

  the top of this building or what is the

  actual tippy top of the building I think

  those are those are two not unreasonable

  ways to try to figure out what the

  tallest building is I hear a Brady sigh

  over there what are you thinking well

  it's fair enough what you're saying is

  fair enough but it just opens more cans

  of worms you know there's a big

  difference between that spire at the top

  of the Chrysler Building which is like a

  proper meaty structure and they're just

  bolting some token flagpole to the top

  to give yourself a few meters some

  rickety piece of wood in a you know in a

  pot I think now I think this way lies

  madness because you're right about that

  I know I know it Jimmy like the Chrysler

  Building is a great example

  it's like hollow on the inside isn't it

  it's just like a hat with the buildings

  wearing it's not a whole lot I think

  there is a difference between that and

  just sticking an antenna up as tall as

  it can possibly go but I think there's

  no meaningful way to try to come up with

  a way to say here's how we are going to

  distinguish essentially antenna from

  decorative adornments on the top of the

  building people do try by the way that

  there isn't a tent okay I'm sure you

  know I'm sure there is but I just think

  there's no there's no way that you can

  possibly get around that you always

  going to be rules lawyer ring about this

  whole thing maybe I'm wrong but I feel

  like the top most usable part of the

  building is a lot harder to rules lawyer

  your way around and I think it gets to

  the idea of why do we want tall

  buildings because they're fun to go up

  into yeah right there like there needs

  to be space for people at the top of

  these tall buildings otherwise what's

  the point of it so you would count

  observation decks yeah I would count an

  observation deck as

  top points like the Empire State

  Building the observation deck I think is

  that yeah is the highest part where

  people can go and that seems to me like

  I think that's where you should measure

  the height from for what the tallest

  building is I mean also it comes down

  here to whether we're counting things as

  buildings or structures because I think

  they're two different categories what

  you're talking about is a fair

  categorization of a tallest building

  maybe but not a tall structure okay you

  know so like a red so a radio masts

  could be a taller structure but it's not

  building obviously hmm okay all right

  yeah I think you have a point there

  right because the structure is going to

  be a place that doesn't have any human

  usable space on the inside of it there's

  a certain definition to our current

  member water is off the top of my head

  that precludes the CN tower from being a

  building but it is a structure even

  though it's got that lovely observation

  deck because so much of it is just Tower

  and lift mm-hmm to get you to what is

  basically just a floating observation

  deck that gets crossed off there's some

  definition of a building I don't know if

  it's a percentage of the structure that

  can be habited or you know I can already

  see here from the Wikipedia page right

  that they have three categories they

  have buildings structures and towers

  yeah so I guess I'm just going to make

  it up but I'm presuming then that our is

  a thing that a person can go up into so

  it has some limited amount of usable

  space versus the structure which

  probably has none like a radio tower but

  which is a structure within these

  definitions I'm gonna guess it's a mess

  but but and you know this is what

  happens when you deal with mighty mighty

  buildings like the mighty black stump

  these kind of questions need to be

  answered so there is some definition by

  which the mighty black stump is taller

  than Telstra house cuz it's got this

  wispy little antenna on top mmm but the

  jury's still out

  there's still a lot to go this is not

  the last you've heard of it but despite

  Grey's wishes once again I'm looking at

  these two buildings in the 3d rendering

  and it looks like Telstra house might

  have higher usable space but it's hard

  to tell are those just elevator banks on

  the top what is that I don't know who

  knows who knows someone needs to go out

  there in person to take care of them

  they using all this visualization

  software I don't

  what it is and what they've been doing

  is they've been like virtually going to

  the top of the mighty Black Star and

  when they do that they can like see onto

  the top of Telstra house and then they

  virtually go onto the top of Telstra

  house and you can't see onto the top of

  the mighty black stump so they're saying

  look it's proof it's proof but I don't

  even know what this software is like I

  don't know what's going on here it's not

  satisfactory to me they said this needs

  to be done I'm sorry this needs to be

  done in person this is not something

  that's going to be solved virtually

  google earth is not going to cut it for

  Brady that's what's happening here

  that's right I wasn't real earth in this

  particular case if the Black Star

  building manager had shown me the

  respect I deserved and had let me onto

  the roof I would be a lot closer to

  knowing the answer to this that's true

  that's true but he didn't let me up

  there so we don't know someone who had a

  lead has to be able to get access to

  those rooms I think that that's got to

  happen of course immediately following

  our discussion there was and there was a

  total lockdown of all Wikipedia pages

  pertaining to Adelaide buildings I'm

  getting a little bit upset about

  something and I've been dealing with

  this a lot on reddit and online but I

  want to have it on the podcast so that

  everyone has heard it the black stamp is

  a legitimate long term nickname for the

  Grenville Center it was cold that when I

  was growing up you can go through

  newspaper archives it's referred to all

  the time there is nothing wrong with the

  Wikipedia page referring to this

  building as the black stump the word

  mighty has been added by grey to be

  facetious no one calls up the mighty

  black stump in Adelaide that is a joke

  of course it should not be on the

  Wikipedia page but the black stump is

  completely legitimate and it's driving

  me crazy that people keep deleting

  references to the black stump saying oh

  this is just some hello internet joke

  and nuisance makers there is not

  nuisance making the black stump is 100%

  legitimate and it's driving me crazy

  that people now think it's some joke hmm

  and we do have a primary source for

  being called the black stump because we

  have a primary source of t-shirt sales

  that say is the mighty black stump

  I've gone and I've pointed people to old

  newspaper articles that predate hello


  referring to it you know Real Estate

  Sale articles referring to the black

  stamp but I just I can't win this one

  it's this Wikipedia vandalism backfiring

  on me I blame you me with your stupid

  mighty yeah because you because you put

  my tea in there and have confused

  everything if I have caused some kind of

  Wikipedia trouble I'm terribly sorry

  I've never wanted to cause I would like

  to get it on record here that I have

  never wanted to cause Wikipedia trouble

  I have never encouraged Wikipedia

  trouble I'm just saying like I think we

  have a primary source that shows that

  it's called the mighty black stump the

  I've never seen a primary source for

  saying that it's called the black stump

  and the mighty black stump is just a

  better name but you know like I'm sure

  people will sort it out in the Wikipedia

  like that's how this works the truth

  will triumph Brady now last episode just

  very very quickly last episode we spoke

  about something that both you and I

  disliked and that is April Fool's Day

  mm-hmm I'm adding to that list from my

  and at least Star Wars day as another

  completely naff day that everyone jumps

  on and thinks they're the master or dead

  jokes and they look like complete idiots

  stop it with all your may the 4th be

  with your jokes stop your corporate

  people photoshopping Darth Vader into

  whatever your corporate picture is to

  make it look like you're down with the

  Star Wars fans you look silly Star Wars

  day was cool for a couple of years it

  was funny for a couple of years now it's

  been co-opted by the idiots and anyone

  else needs to get the hell out of Dodge

  whoa wow that's just my opinion

  you for die yeah yeah pretty intense

  about this what about you you think Star

  Wars days you know oh is the last best

  breathing I don't want to be lumped in

  with you as this grump

  who doesn't like fun That's not me I'm

  about the fun and a holiday based on a

  pun like man I couldn't imagine

  something that'd be more down for I

  think that's a fantastic idea and yeah

  it's great

  I love seeing corporate cross promotion

  I love seeing dad jokes I've loved

  everything about it so so don't get me


  listening audience Brady is the

  curmudgeon here I'm I think it's great I

  think it's awesome is it purely the pun

  or is there some link to the data

  well like it wasn't the date that the

  film premiered or anything was it is

  purely the patent I think I think it's

  literally just a pun that's all it is

  Star Wars day Wikipedia yeah it's

  entirely just a pun it's just a pun

  based holiday I'm perfectly in favor of

  I think it's like a good pen yeah yeah

  it's my favorite it's it's the best I

  think Brady the problem is you just

  don't like things when they get too

  popular you like Star Wars when it was

  just you and your friends who knew about

  it yeah when when virtually no one had

  heard of Sarah was except me in my

  friends exactly just you and your

  friends back in the 70s had watched Star

  Wars right but now that everybody knows

  about it now you don't like it I think

  that's what's happening here

  yeah yeah I like Star Wars before it was

  popular so like that's like a day before

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  for supporting this show I saw something

  on the hello Internet reddit which I

  really liked Brady it was a picture of a

  guy installing his newbie house his new

  apiary wearing the nail and gear did you

  see this photo I'm looking at it now

  he's a handsome man

  it's a handsome man I have to say I gave

  him credit for not wearing the bee suit

  if you look closely in the photo he has

  bees all over him is that his real

  Bader's you got one of those babies oh

  it's good question ah let's enhance I'm

  enhancing click to enhance that is a bee

  beard Wow ok there's actually way more

  bees on here I first thought super

  impressive I wanted to mention this

  photo because this one made me really

  smile because you might think this is

  crazy I have this idea Brady that when I

  retire from the internet when I give up

  the tremendous volume of outputs that I

  create when I hang up my reddit user

  name and retire I have this like crazy

  idea that you know what I left you in my


  I'd love to raise bees I don't know why

  I have this idea that like I'll get a

  bee house and I'll tend to the bees this

  is just like this little idea that I

  have as an old man hobby I love a cgb

  gray why that what of all the old man

  hobbies you could have like you know I

  mean you know if you'd said I want to

  build a train set I'd be like oh yeah

  I'm totally on board and then who

  doesn't want to be able to I can awesome

  train set I don't want to build an

  awesome train set now that seems that

  strikes me as incredibly tedious

  that sounds uninteresting why the bays

  then why the base good I have no idea

  this is one of these things that I'm

  just aware that okay so sometimes I

  watch these property shows I think I

  mentioned before on the podcast I

  watches property show called escape to

  the country where people who live in

  London decide they're going to go retire

  out in the country you've just melted my

  brain why have i melted your brain

  that's like a TV show you don't watch


  hey how do you even watch that what

  device do you watch that on its you know

  you can you can find you can find the

  show I can't believe you watch escape to

  the country I'm so sure I've mentioned

  this before to you Bri this is a bigger

  shock to me than the penguin dying

  hahaha it's fantastic it's a great show

  it is a great show but I can't believe

  you watch it or like it it's a great

  show of essentially for pensioners my

  wife and I will make a cup of tea we'll

  put a blanket over our legs like we're

  80 years old and we'll watch escaped to

  the country and it's fantastic do you

  think you could ever live in a rural

  location with your base here's where I'm

  going with this right is because I watch

  this show and there's a funny thing that

  always happens on the show we're like a

  couple who's lived in London their

  entire life they're like oh we're gonna

  go retire and they'll be describing what

  they want to have in a house when they

  retire and they'll be like okay we want

  this feature we want that feature we

  want this other feature and then the

  husband will always say something dumb

  like oh and I want a really big yard

  because I'm going to manage goats right

  and there's like have you ever taken

  care of goats before he's like now

  that's just a thing that I want to do

  and I'm watching the show and I always

  feel like what an idiot like this this

  guy thinks he's going to be managing a

  herd of goats in his retirement like

  that's a disaster like we all know how

  this is going to end

  goats roaming the country free once

  they've escaped from his backyard right

  or if they're all gonna die like who

  knows it's just not going to end well

  like is idiot has never raised goats

  this is what he things he's want to do

  but like I have this same crazy idea in

  my head like at some point in my future

  I'm gonna be raising bees and I don't

  know why I don't know why I have it

  there Brady but it's just like it's this

  idea my old man hobby and it's a

  contradiction because I'm aware that I

  am totally disdainful of other people

  who on a TV show that I watch have

  essentially the same idea for their

  retirement and I'm like Otto's idiots

  right but now but me this somehow feels

  different I think this is gonna happen

  at some point Brady do you like honey

  yeah it's good honey's good are you

  allergic to bass ah seem like you would

  be do I that's a good question I've been

  stung but wait why do we why does it

  seem like I would be allergic to bees

  how can someone seem like they're

  allergic to bees

  I don't know you just seem like an

  allergic kind of guy oh yeah like all

  kinds of things I should just be

  allergic to them this is the way it

  seems let's just the vibe I get like you

  don't look sickly or anything but you

  just I get an allergic vibe from you


  yeah I've been stung by bees as a kid

  okay can you get allergic later in life

  I don't know I have no idea do you wanna

  hear my base tongue story of course you

  have a bee stung story tell me really I

  grew up with a swimming pool in

  Australia my parents had a swimming pool

  so my sister and I had a swimming pool

  by default and I remember one day my mum

  took us to the shops and bought us lots

  of fun stuff for the pool like

  inflatable stuff and these big plastic

  oars and things like that so we were

  going to have like the time of our life

  playing with them in the pool but for

  some reason I was going to go to my

  friend's house first to play cricket my

  sister and I because were little kids

  we'll funny about you know not getting

  to play with the toys first so we made a

  pet that when I got back we would play

  with the toys together one of us

  wouldn't get to enjoy the toys before

  the other one and my sister who's a lot

  just completely sweet just agreed to

  that and said yes that's fine so we put

  all the toys around the pole and said

  we'll play with them when I get home but

  first I'm going to go over to my mates

  house to play cricket and we were

  playing cricket and then after a while I

  said to my mates we've got all these

  awesome new toys in the pool my sister

  thinks I'm going to play with them with

  her but why don't we put our bathers on

  secretly and run around and go and play

  with them before she gets the chance

  because that would be like you know just

  to just a tormentor because that was

  what brothers do to sisters right yes so

  we changed into obey this and my sister

  was like watching TV in like a living

  room that looked out over the pole and

  we came storming into the backyard

  nobody was going whoo-hoo-hoo and we

  picked up all the inflatables and one of

  the oars was sitting by the side of the

  pool and I threw the inflatable in and

  picked up the yaw and jumped into the

  pool with the or ready to go rowing and

  my sister came into the backyard crying

  because what was terrible thing we were

  doing to her and tormenting her and

  suddenly I had this tremendous pain in

  my hand and I'd been stung by a bee and

  that was on the or and it turns out

  while I was playing cricket my sister

  had rescued a bee from the pole using

  the oar and had like fished it out and

  let it be or by the side of the pole

  because she's so humane

  she wanted the beach you know dry out

  and fly away right so when I'd come

  running and picked up the oil from the

  side of the pool my hands straight on

  the B and got stung that's how I got my

  I learned my lesson I got my comeuppance

  Oh believe you did that

  oh I was getting all angry after what I

  just done there so you learned to never

  torment your sister again isn't how that

  works that was the last day I ever

  tormented her ever that was the last day

  that's good yeah that's good I'm glad

  you learned that lesson it weren't

  pretty yeah my stepfather's a beekeeper

  oh yeah really hmm interesting I've

  never gone and seen his bees or hives he

  kept them on another property away from

  the house when I was growing up and yeah

  but he would sometimes go away and tend

  to his bees see even I like just the

  idea of it like it just sounds romantic

  like Oh tending to bees huh yeah of

  course that sounds like a great thing to

  do I've caught myself sometimes reading

  about how to keep hives and like what

  the hell am i doing right it's like I

  can't I can't help myself this is

  definitely one of the strangest things

  that I find my mind like vaguely drawn

  to every once in a while you can't leave

  them alone gray you could get an

  allotment somewhere and just go once a

  week just go check on them leave the

  allotment people to deal with life of

  ease that Ferguson I guess some around

  the country I can see why that would

  appeal to you because there's like you

  know because bees are all about

  organization and colonies and all those

  sort of things that you find so

  interesting you know organizational

  structures so being like the god of some

  organization I would quite a people to

  that's what I'm doing it for it's the

  power trip yeah that is I am the god of

  this hive you nailed afraid of yeah

  you've gotten to the core of my they're

  interested obviously I don't think you

  want to do it to be the god of bees but

  I can see why like you know studying and

  looking at it would be interesting to

  you I can see why I'd be an interesting

  hobby tea yeah it's just that just it

  captures my attention what are you going

  to do in your retirement breeding I

  would like to spend more time in

  mountains and walking up I'd like to be

  one of those people who like goes to

  Scotland and captures Monroe's you know

  how there are people who try and get to

  every peak in Scotland and stuff like

  that I would like to climb Hills in your

  retirement yeah how people do it it's

  not like you know cramp

  and an ice axe and stuff it's just okay

  Pleasant walks up Scottish Hills okay

  alright basically tell me that you're

  gonna be you're gonna be some budding

  peaks in your environment which seemed a

  little bit like I've got bad news for

  you yeah I think I would like to do that

  I like hills and mountains I like that I

  think that's that's a romantic image of

  a Brady when the Brady retires you'll

  see him on the Scottish hills in the

  distance walking around

  that's a Brady will do bagging another

  peak yeah bagging my list crossing it

  off my list I like there I like taking a

  pointing selfie at the top pointing to

  the the style or whatever's up there the

  trig point will say I like this will

  have relaxing retirements Brady mmm

  maybe maybe this is a good point to move

  on to Mount Everest then as you know I

  love talking about Mount Everest it is

  as we are recording at the moment we're

  just coming into the Everest climbing

  season it should be more accurately

  described as the Everest death season

  because that's when we start here start

  hearing all the stories about people

  dying at Mount Everest which seems to

  becoming more and more common more and

  more people go every year right isn't

  that how that works is it like a busy

  place now Everest

  all the tourists have ruined it there's

  a Starbucks at base camp there's not a

  stat bucket there's very good Wi-Fi at

  base camp I give it time not be a

  Starbucks there eventually right there's

  better phone reception at base camp than

  where I live that's for sure that is

  true you live in the center of a black

  hole of reception that can be crazy

  every time my droughts I'm like it feels

  like I'm in the third world as far as my

  phone is concerned like why can't I get

  no signal in your house it's crazy

  making a good place for Bay's though out

  here but the first death that was

  reported was not of a tourist or some

  amateur it was actually as far as

  Mountaineers go it was a guy who is

  probably the superstar of mountaineering

  at the moment is a guy called Ueli Steck

  or his nicknames the swiss machine and

  he's like a really famous mountaineer

  he's really good at climbing Peaks

  quickly and he was getting ready to try

  and do an unusual Everest climb this

  season and he was just kind of

  acclimatizing and

  warming up sort of sort of thing and he

  was actually just going up a little side

  peak called nutsy it's funny Mount

  Everest to my mind is really three

  mountains kind of joined together


  lot C and nutsy and yet they all are

  treated separately and lot C in fact is

  the fourth highest mountain in the world

  but actually I just it's really just

  like a southern peak of Everest hmm

  anyway so there's these three sort of

  mountains join together they form like a

  little cradle around this western room

  and he was sort of doing an

  acclimatization climb on nutsy and has

  fallen to his death which is terribly

  sad thing to have happened but an

  interesting thing about him is you ly

  stick is actually the star of my

  all-time favorite YouTube video which I

  actually have since found out I think

  maybe a little bit of a free boot but

  it's been free booted so much now I

  don't really know what to say this it's

  a clip from a longer film where he's

  climbing the Eiger in record time and

  it's got a really cool song that I

  really love to it as well this is the

  video that you sent to me before the

  show started of this again thing didn't

  even occur to me but obviously there's

  going to be records for how fast people

  can summit yes and it seems like that

  that was this guy specialty when I'm

  watching this video it starts off by

  he's saying oh you want to go quickly

  but you can't make any mistakes

  yeah and I'm just thinking like of

  course that's any kind of climb you want

  to get up quickly because you want to

  get to the top or you want this

  experience to be completed it didn't

  occur to me that people would be racing

  for time which just seems so crazy to me

  it's that you're doing an already

  dangerous thing and you're turning it

  into a vertical race but the video is

  very impressive to see him moving up the

  mountain at quite a rapid pace it's an

  impressive little video and I'll put it

  in the show notes I'm pretty sure it's

  the North Face of the Eiger which is

  that the famous Face of the Eiger and is

  also you always hear about North Face I

  think that must come from the North Face

  of the Eiger it's the famous difficult

  climb he would go up with you know very

  little equipment and super super fast so

  when I saw that this person had died

  oh that's the guy in that video isn't it

  and I went back and sure enough so so

  that was sad news that video is like

  quite beautiful though isn't it like did

  what did you think watching that video

  like it's beautifully filmed it must be

  really quite breathtaking to be in these

  locations and and that that shot of him

  right as he's like walking along the

  crest of the mountain right toward

  towards the peak it says I can't imagine

  what that experience is like to have the

  mountain plummeting down on on either

  side of you as you're as you're walking

  along this Ridge towards the top like it

  must be an amazing experience well I'm

  glad you said that that leads me to the

  thing that this has had be thinking over

  the last week or so obviously he died

  falling off a mountain and when that

  happens it's like well that's just a

  total tragedy but he was a guy who was

  very aware of the risk he talked a lot

  about the risks of what he did he wasn't

  like a cowboy he knew he was doing a

  risky thing and he obviously made this

  decision that it was worth it and when

  you see that video and you see the sorts

  of things he was experiencing it did

  make me think about how do you make this

  calculus of risk in your life versus

  getting to experience that sort of

  amazing stuff astronauts who walk go to

  the moon people who do amazing things

  and see amazing things but risk their

  life doing it and like how does one make

  that decision and it's very easy you

  know the week after the person dies to

  say well he made the wrong decision

  because he's died at the age of 40 but

  like I don't know I kind of think I get

  why you were doing it but I think it was

  and I kind of think it was worth the


  he you know he got to see and do lots of

  amazing things that you and I will never

  get to experience he got to experience

  what it's like to go up that snow field

  at the top of the Eiger on your own

  after having just climbed the North Face

  and that's pretty amazing stuff and I

  guess you could say what counts for

  nothing when you've died but I've been

  thinking a lot about that calculus to

  the last week or so because of his death

  well we're all dust in the end Brady

  like that doesn't change things but I

  don't think a guy like this makes these

  calculations I think people like this

  are I mean this in the best possible way

  I think they're total freaks

  I think someone like this is

  they're not doing any kind of like risk

  reward calculation and feeling like I'll

  see amazing things if I do this very

  dangerous thing I think this is just a

  person who was more or less born to do a

  very extreme thing and you probably

  couldn't possibly stop them whenever you

  see people doing like really extreme

  sports or or even things like astronauts

  all right like someone becomes an

  astronaut like those people are just

  such extremely driven people as to be

  such a small percentage of the human

  population that it's it's just like of

  course you were going to do something I

  don't think this is a calculation as

  happens in the human population like

  there's going to be somebody who wants

  to do this sort of thing they almost

  can't help themselves I think I think

  that's the way that works out okay is

  that not what you want to hear Brady no

  I mean yeah it makes sense um but I mean

  I feel like I make the calculations like

  I just I've gone to every Space Camp a

  couple of times you know despite this

  dicey Airport that some people are a bit

  scared of and walking at the altitude

  because I thought you know I waited up

  and my desire to see this place and go

  there was greater than mmm my fear that

  you know I'd come to an untimely end but

  on the other hand I really want to go

  and see k2 and there's like a trip that

  I've been looking into to go there

  but it does involve going through a few

  places that are not considered very safe

  for sort of political reasons and I've

  been put off that and I've decided not

  to do that at the moment because I don't

  think it's worth it you know when I've

  weighed everything up so I feel like I

  do make those decisions and I just

  wonder yeah but precisely precisely you

  making those decisions is the reason

  that you're not doing speed runs up

  Mount Everest right that's precisely

  what I'm saying right as I like I don't

  think that there's another person who's

  doing the calculus in the other way like

  yes no I think this is gonna be worth it

  I think someone like this is just like I

  got a client like I gotta climb

  mountains fast and I just I don't know

  why but I just have to do it like I

  think that's what this is so you think

  when he would do tall I know you haven't

  followed his career or read interviews

  with him but you think when he would do

  talk about you know I'm aware of the

  risks and I weigh things up you think

  that's just lip service and really he

  just had this drive that was


  yeah lips lip service isn't exactly

  right but it's like I just think that

  the like the way the person's brain is

  set up is doing this calculation in a

  very different way than anybody else

  would do it that's what I mean is like

  the adrenaline reward wired in his brain

  is like way higher than it would be for

  somebody else right and it's also a

  person who's probably had like just the

  right experiences to be this sort of

  person so that's what I mean by like

  people who do this kind of stuff are

  freaks in a particular way I often use

  this example of like like Richard

  Branson as a business person who I think

  is this similar thing he's like oh he's

  like a broken human being but he's

  broken in such a way that he can't stop

  starting businesses I think it's just

  things like kind of hardwired into him

  it's not a thing that's about whenever

  you're looking at anybody who's in like

  the top point Oh 1% of people in any

  category you just it's crazy to think

  that they'd be like a normal person

  who's just decided to do something else

  like I think all of those people are

  sort of freaks who can't help themselves

  that's why like you're saying they're

  thinking about all the political

  problems and wherever I need to fly

  through to get to k2 like yeah that's

  why you're not that's why you're not

  climbing up k2 I mean maybe in your

  retirement brain yeah you have more time

  to it you'll you'll do things a little

  bit differently but that's kind of my

  take on it like I just don't think these

  are normal people I think like

  definitionally they have to not be

  normal people he was the same age as me

  oh really

  and he twice won this award which is

  like the Oscars of mountaineering I like

  that there's like mountaineering has

  this rewarded for you how does that even

  mean the Oscars of mountaineering that

  doesn't make any sense I can't pronounce

  that the payload or which French for the

  golden ice axe the annual mountaineering

  award given by the French magazine

  Montag's I don't understand how that

  could work I think it's if you do

  something that year that's like

  pioneering lucky you know you piety or

  some new route or you do you climb

  something in a new way that hasn't been

  done before it's like I don't know I'm

  trying to I'm trying to get a nice

  little precis of what it's given for but

  I can't really find it anyway

  there has been another death at base

  camp he was attempting to become the

  oldest man to climb Everest he had been

  the oldest man before his record had

  been taken from him so he was trying to

  get it back and he was 85 and he died

  bassist here he died he was Nepalese so

  he was quite he was quite good at

  altitude but he died at base camp they

  think of a heart attack which you know

  again very sad hard to be completely

  shocked when someone really old dies

  trying to climb the highest mountain in

  the world yeah I'm not surprised when 85

  year old man dies of a heart attack at

  Everest base camp

  that's not exactly shocking news no this

  is the thing I wanted to ask you about

  was that the authorities now in Nepal

  are considering an age limit on people

  climbing Everest you have to be over 16

  to be allowed to climb Everest to get a

  permit they're now considering putting a

  limit on and for some reason I'm not

  exactly sure why I've got a theory why

  but I don't know they're thinking of

  setting the limit as 76 so okay I need

  to know your theory is what why do you

  think 76 this Nepalese guy that would

  held the record before did climber at

  the age of 76 so I wonder if maybe

  they're using that could the record know

  is 80 a Japanese guy who was 80 broke

  the REC broke the record but this this

  Nepalese guy that used to have the

  record was 76 when he did it so I wonder

  if maybe that number is being used

  somehow there could be other reasons I

  don't know but what do you think about

  setting an age limit on climbing Mount

  Everest because you're all into like you

  know freedom and people can do what they

  want yeah stuff that seems crazy I mean

  I there's a thing that I don't like

  which is rules for what I imagine are

  really rare circumstances how many

  people over 65 are trying to climb

  Everest every year how many people can

  that possibly be I'm imagining it's not

  a huge number and it's like if if

  someone someone who is older wants to

  try to climb Everest and presumably you

  know you have to sign some waiver or

  whatever be like yeah I know I'm

  climbing Everest I know is going to be

  dangerous like I don't I don't like this

  kind of stuff

  like why what what is the point of this

  to stop people from dying on Everest

  it's like well it seems like lots of



  well died on Everest what difference

  does it make if they dive they're old

  well I can give you a point if you want

  one just to make the argument and that

  is when people get into strife on

  Everest that actually can cause a lot of

  other people strife because inevitably

  sometimes they'll try to rescue them

  it's very costly to try and rescue

  people people can lose their life trying

  to help other people who are losing

  their life so getting more people on the

  mountain who are incredibly likely to

  get into strife has that implication you

  know if you send someone up there who's

  almost definitely going to get

  themselves into trouble and then

  everyone else is going to have to try to

  save them suddenly you're risking a

  whole bunch of other lives so that's

  that's an argument I have a question for

  you because I don't I don't know is

  there some kind of qualification that

  you need to do to climb Mount Everest

  do you need to prove yourself physically

  in some way I actually do not know the

  answer to that famously that people

  complain that you know any old tourist

  can get dragged to the top practically

  by their guides but I don't know how

  much that's an exaggeration and you have

  to prove some kind of ability I imagine

  most of the companies that help you get

  to the top of Everest would reply and

  say yes we have a vetting process we

  don't take any Tom Dick or Harry up

  there how stringent that is I don't know

  and I don't know I don't know that the

  answer is I don't know I guess I mean

  like what I'm wondering is like okay

  let's say I go out and I buy some boots

  and then I fly to Nepal and I all right

  I'm walking up that mountain with what's

  gonna stop me from doing that you would

  have to get a permit from the government

  okay to go above a certain height so if

  you are not doing it with a company and

  you're just going on your own right I

  don't know how easy it is to get permits

  for that and that I don't know what the

  government would require from you I

  don't know how they check so there

  exists some sort of permit yes to go

  above a certain height like I went to

  base camp if I when I was there I sat or

  I think I got the kubu ice fault and see

  how far I can get I would be breaking

  the law okay like that was as far as I'm

  allowed to go without a permit right and

  then the Everest police would grab you

  when they bridge whenever is Jail okay

  and the permits are super expensive all

  right my feeling and this is whatever

  you need to get the permit like that

  that should I just don't like this

  artificial like for your own good rule I

  would be totally fine if

  there was like Oh as part of the permit

  process when you arrived in Nepal

  there's a exercise room and you have to

  be able to complete a certain number of

  physical tasks to demonstrate that

  you're able to do this right yeah and I

  was like that's that's fine that's

  totally fine like I wouldn't have any

  problem with that I don't like the age

  limit seems to be arbitrary yeah it

  seems a bit arbitrary right but it's

  like if you have to go into a room and

  you have to be able to do 100 pushups

  yeah and if you can't do 100 pushups

  they don't let you climb the mountain

  yeah that seems fine right I would be

  okay with that if a bunch of pensioners

  want to freeze to death on Mount Everest

  thumbs up from greater that that's fine

  as someone who's a little bit fascinated

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  choose any

  other title as your freebie I finally

  met someone who made a strong case for

  the Apple watch

  really I almost feel a little bit

  insulted by the way you started this

  conversation because I feel like how

  many times have we discussed here we've

  discussed this many times Gray has often

  over dinner and over a drink

  you know women not podcasting I

  sometimes say to gray gray sell me on

  the Apple watch and he tells me why he

  likes it how it fits in with his life I

  understand the logic of the things that

  gray says the honey makes sense and like

  okay you know if that's if that's how

  your brain works and that's what you

  want I can get it but the case you make

  never seems compelling enough to me it

  doesn't it just never lands and they're

  really like like even in your case I

  think the things you're saying it helps

  you with don't seem strong enough to me

  for what I think the pleasure I imagine

  you could get from having like a nicer

  watch that's just me that's just me no

  it is like I wanted to get you on record

  for that because I do always think it's

  funny because it's it's not just that

  you find my reasons unconvincing for you

  you find my reasons unconvincing for me

  yeah I kind of play I kind of do I can't

  I mean obviously it's your decision and

  obviously the case is compelling enough

  because you wear an Apple watch and you

  don't wear the other watch but I feel

  almost a bit I know it sounds really

  arrogant but I feel almost like if only

  you knew but I know like I know yeah we

  have is like I can see it in your little

  baby eyes yeah but you're thinking like

  Oh gray I know better than you on this

  topic and if only I get that's how I

  feel that's how I feel but I spoke to

  someone the other day thinking it would

  the discussion would go the same way and

  at the end of it I was like now okay you

  should have an Apple watch okay I have

  to know what is this argument well he

  was the person driving me to the airport

  okay so he's our like a car driver

  he runs a car service for a living and

  he used to have nice watches and then it

  was an Apple watch tumbler why do you

  why do you wear the Apple watch tell me

  and the two reasons that seemed

  completely compelling to me and they

  were both relating to his work one is

  he's always driving and just being able

  to fix his wrist while still holding the

  steering wheel to see what's going on

  is a strong case as opposed to fishing a

  phone out which is not only dangerous

  but it's illegal mm-hmm and I don't want

  any driver fishing their telephone out

  and checking their phone all the time

  but he can just flick his wrist at the

  wheel and he's driving all day long row

  so but the second part of that is is the

  business case he's self-employed he

  needs to get bookings it's an industry

  where booking cars I'm like this if I

  try to book a car with someone and they

  don't get back to me really quickly

  I'll just book one with someone else

  because I want to get it done so he

  can't afford to miss opportunities so he

  needs notifications to him are so

  important and he's driving all the time

  so being notified every time an email

  comes in from someone who might want to

  book him seems really compelling and

  like it would start to hurt his business

  if he was missing those messages those

  emails and those opportunities so the

  fact he's always driving combined with

  his really really compelling need for

  notifications which I think's much

  stronger than your need for

  notifications as you've told me he sold

  me on and I was like all right I still

  think your watch looks a bit Nath

  but I see why you're wearing it it

  sounds like you're just making a case

  for distracted driving that's what it

  sounds like that's like a prayer so I'm

  listening this is like this guy doesn't

  need an Apple watch that the all I'm

  hearing is like I'd be trying to talk

  this guy out of his Apple watch that

  sounds it's like oh great now I've got a

  guy who's looking at his watch a hundred

  times while he's driving this is no good

  hey dude look at his watch once the

  whole trip but I was soda I was Arthur

  okay I can't visit the worst argument in

  the world and this is what you feel like

  you finally see someone has a compelling

  reason to use the Apple watch I can't

  believe this no because you are like a


  mumsy about safety you're thinking mom

  say something something that is this

  slanderous there's a slanderous

  accusation where you are a bit you are a

  bit of a little you're a bit careful so

  I think so when I tell this story you're

  set you're seeing the horror of someone

  looking at their watchin crashing

  whereas I see more just a glance oh

  that's something I need to deal with and

  I will you know at the next petrol

  station I don't see it as a safety

  concern but I can see how the gray eyes

  of safety are seeing it somewhat

  differently he could just he could just

  check his phone at the pet

  no station instead this is a keg I feel

  infuriated that this is the argument you

  feel like is landed for you for an Apple

  watch this is crazy this is crazy

  Wow I think people using their phones

  while driving is like really really bad

  yeah of course and at least this is a

  bit safer and you're never going to stop

  people connecting while driving you just

  can't do it it's an impossible it's

  impossible gray like you cannot stop

  people wanting to check emails and

  Internet's and things and social media

  while driving it just can't be done and

  if the watch like scales that back a

  little bit okay I'll take it I'll take

  it okay so you're doing this thing is

  like it's not that he's going to be a

  responsible person and check his

  notifications at the petrol station you

  are saying it's less distracting for him

  using the watch but he's still doing a

  bad thing that's what you feel like here

  that's your argument

  I'm not doing anything I'm trying to say

  something I'm trying to say something

  nice about the stupid Kaka toy Apple

  watch for once and you're slapping me

  down because this is a little chunky

  silly thing and I'm like I'm trying to

  throw you a bone and now you're saying

  he should check his phone at the petrol

  station okay and get yourself a nice

  watch too while you're at it that's what

  I'm thinking this guy should this guy

  should be checking his phone at the

  petrol station and he should get a nice

  watch so I just disagree disagree we can

  never we can never come to a meeting of

  the minds on the Apple watch Brady until

  eventually one of these days you will

  end up with a SmartWatch just like I

  know you will it's only a matter of time

  so Brady I need an update on something a

  little bit more first-hand journalism

  hmm I know you've been to the US and I

  probably have very many US stories but

  there's one thing that I want to know

  which is tell me are the at-ats are they

  still a Dulles are they still there they

  most certainly are

  oh thank god yeah so I've just been

  there it was my first time at Dulles now

  gray has spoken rather negatively about

  Washington Dulles Airport uh-huh over

  the course of this podcast it's true

  Stan he made it sound pretty terrible so

  this was my first

  saying it with my own eyes and I have to

  say I'm inclined to agree with gray okay

  thank God I was like I was I was wait I

  could feel myself building up like this

  this tension because I don't like Brady

  Brady's gonna spout a bunch of nonsense

  about how it's not so bad and he's hard

  as nails okay so but you're on my side

  with this one I arrived but I was a

  little bit excited I was going to get to

  see these ATS maybe if they were still

  operating we didn't know if that there

  was there were rumors that they were no

  longer operating because of some train

  that's being built but anyway I got off

  my plane and I didn't quite realize how

  these ATS would work but it was like we

  were a bunch of dazed prisoners being

  led off the plane and before we could

  even like get our feet and figure out

  we're going you'll kind of Shepherd it

  around this steep corner into this

  holding area and then like cattle you

  have shuffled into through this door and

  you don't know what the door was to okay

  don't worry no it's not obvious where

  you're going and like you're not

  prepared for it don't say you're gonna

  get put on this thing there's no like

  chance to do anything else and suddenly

  you're in this weird room with carpeted

  walls that doesn't even seem like a

  vehicle mm-hmm and then it does it's a

  weird thing where it changes its height

  and starts driving the lack of

  communication about what's going on when

  you've just gotten off a long-haul

  flight it was really disappointing so

  anyway I chugged along in the app and I

  saw all the other ones crawling around

  and that was kind of cool I mean it was

  kind of otherworldly because I got this

  sort of late at night so seeing these

  things crawling all around the airport

  was kind of cool I was just one gate

  away from the cursed gate which I think

  was b50 I saw it from a distance but I

  didn't get to take a photo of oh and

  then I got and then the adapter posited

  us at the arrivals you know immigration

  area which again was kind of not a very

  pleasant place and not a very pleasant

  experience these places really are to be

  honest but this was particularly bad and

  they were pretty rubbish with what

  queues to put us in and then I got moved

  from Q to Q and I was thinking ah this

  couldn't get any worse and just when I

  thought it couldn't get any worse

  almost as if gray had arranged it that a

  little kid a little tiny kid standing

  next to me some toddler suddenly got

  down on his haunches and started

  vomiting before so some so I'm waiting

  in queue next to a pile of vomit Dallas


  you know I'd like to be sympathetic but

  no no this that's like though nobody is

  sympathetic to children when they're

  traveling right this is like lose a kid

  your only job is to be quiet and that's

  it to be quiet I know don't don't expel

  anything from your body right yeah just

  be silent and miserable like the rest of

  us yeah so like I finally got through

  and got my bag and then I had to join

  some other queue with my bag which was

  even longer than the immigration queue

  where they just wanted to take a piece

  of paper off me and let me continue so

  and then you know and then I ordered my

  uber and my uber guy phoned me up and

  wanted to figure out where I was going

  and just obviously decided I wasn't a

  good fare and canceled on me so I was

  having over problems as well I'm falling

  out of love with you but I can tell you

  that right now

  yeah and but that's a whole other story

  there anyway so my Dulles experience was

  terrible and when I left Washington

  I went via Ronald Reagan Airport which

  is lovely I'm realizing that you didn't

  actually you were barely in the CD

  terminals I didn't even have you know

  experience all the things you hate about

  it I had a quite limited exposure and

  even that put me offer it is now on the

  list of places that hello internet

  listeners can check off that they've

  gone to on a worldwide - hello internets

  scavenger hunt

  I guess so I'm glad I'm glad now that

  all this have been there yeah that's

  exactly what it is yeah I'm glad the

  both of us have been there

  so yeah I'm fun for you I'm sorry that a

  child vomited in line I'm sorry that

  you're falling out of love with uber it

  sounds like difficult travels but did

  you make it to your math festival on

  time I did I enjoyed Washington it was

  only my second time I'd spent any time

  there and I really enjoyed her mm-hmm I

  was there for this national math

  festival which was interesting it was

  really good it was I really loved it

  it coincided with the March for science

  which was held in Washington

  which I think there was some worry that

  it might sort of you know the Nerds

  might do the match for science instead

  of the math festival but I think the two

  sort of played off each other quite well

  and luckily for the math festival it

  absolutely poured with rain in

  Washington that day so I think a lot of

  people who were thinking I'll do the

  March and then go to the festival or

  I'll go to the festival and go to the

  match thought bugger that I'm just going

  to go to the math festival that's why I

  thought maybe the winners for them I

  love that Lee who have come all the way

  to protest oh but it's raining

  how much do I really care turns out not

  rains worth much it was a great success

  that match for science anyway and I must

  speak positively about it if only

  because our friend Duke from the Vatican

  was one of their like hosts of it and I

  didn't catch up with him for a drink in

  Washington the wave function that is

  Dirk did spread to Washington so I got

  to see him while I was there I didn't

  know he was there for that yeah he was

  the guy he was the guy up on the stage

  you know showboating around in the dry

  no doubt covered by the stage yeah ya

  know for for that pretty face they can't

  let him get wet no that's not happened

  exactly as sunshine machines at the top

  of the stage to keep him nice and warm

  I'm sure that's how that works

  so now you feel like you have to speak

  positively about it that's funny

  interesting I can show a bit of

  solidarity so the math festival well I

  obviously got there early mm-hmm and I

  had to do these like three presentations

  two of them with Matt Parker and one

  with cliff style who have people in

  might numberphile videos and there was

  just like really big room that we were

  doing it in and like I'm thinking

  there's no way people are going to come

  to this room hmm I get really nervous

  about that like I just imagine like

  three people turning up because I'm like

  who's going to want to come to this and

  then after that I knew I had to do this

  slacker they'd set up this kind of

  meet-and-greet thing for me like meet

  Brady from numberphile which I was a bit

  uneasy about and I want it to be as

  low-key as possible and then I went to

  the place where it was going to happen

  which was this huge area at the

  Convention Center in Washington that I

  swear was three times bigger than an

  aircraft hangar and then there's this

  one tiny desk over on the side with a

  sign saying meet Brady from numberphile

  and like a chair and like ropes and

  stuff and I'm like why their ropes that

  makes it like you do not need crowd

  control this is not going to be a big

  thing I felt really like really uneasy

  about it and really embarrassed about it

  hmm so so luckily lots of people came to

  the presentations there was a really

  good audience there were lots of Tim's

  my met the guy that does nerd stats on

  reddit okay you complain to him about

  that worth the weight measurement the

  terribly means worth the weight

  measurement I didn't I didn't really get

  time to discuss that but if I had I

  would have he was disappointingly normal

  I was hoping he'd be a bit nerdy abut

  anyway he seemed kind of normal but

  anyway anyway so I met lots of Tim's saw

  a few nailing gears around the place and

  then I went up like a three o'clock

  whatever I went up to this desk well I

  was going to have to sit for hours which

  I thought was going to be the most

  embarrassing moment of my life and I was

  going to be sitting at a table for like

  three hours on mine there are a few

  people milling there when I got there so

  I'm like hi and liked it signed a few

  things and did a few selfies and then

  amazingly like it was never like a long

  key like a you know VidCon where like a

  thousand screaming people line up to

  meet some vlogger but there was always

  just like 10 people like for the whole

  three hours like I think people would

  come along and think other queue there's

  a key oh there's no queue I'll join the

  queue now so like for the whole three

  hours that never stopped like I was able

  to just spend three hours meeting people

  which was nice and also incredible

  relief for my like personal pride really

  really what I love I love this stuff

  because it's like it's like you don't

  know who you are Brady if you're worried

  you worry did all these events that

  nobody is going to show up but you want

  like you're the mighty Brady Haran yeah

  you are a number file at a math

  convention like you think nobody's gonna

  show up

  to say hello like do you have any

  concept of who you are in the situation

  I'm amazed at that you weren't mobbed

  right the fans didn't dare you limb from

  limb screaming and excitement to see you

  there right it's like it's it's just

  it's so funny to me cuz like I saw the

  same thing at VidCon really like wonder

  anybody's gonna show but like now dude

  like you're Brady Haran you had a math

  convention like I think you're going to

  be fine for a meet-and-greet like I

  think you're gonna be just fine all

  right that's not that's that's fair


  but having said that and they were quite

  and quite a few hello Internet listeners

  came just for hello Internet I probably

  went who probably weren't numberphile

  fans but my favorite people who lined up

  and there were a few of these and I

  remain bamboos would buy them people who

  were waiting in line for maybe you know

  15 20 minutes because sometimes I would

  talk to people for a while and someone

  would get to the front of the queue and

  I'd say hey how are you mm-hmm and they

  would say to me yeah I'm good thanks who

  are you I saw this queue of people or

  people wanting to know so I thought okay

  I want to find out who you are and that

  I would have to like to a total stranger

  who've been waiting in queue to meet me

  I would have to say oh well my name's

  Brady and I make these YouTube videos

  about mathematics and some people like

  them they're like oh really oh that

  sounds really interesting how long have

  you been doing that for and I talk to

  them for like five minutes they had no

  idea who I was and then and then there

  would be oh can I have a picture with

  you I'm like yeah of course you can't or

  can I have a signature yeah yeah you can

  yeah and then they would just walk away

  I feel like I can't believe that that's

  real it's true it happened three times

  one of them was a family it was a mum

  with like all her kids and then I had to

  like have pictures with the kids and

  none of them knew who I was I really

  almost can't believe that what kind of

  person would do that and I were just

  saying a cue and thought maybe I was

  someone interesting or famous but like

  it's not like this is Soviet Russia and

  you see a line and you just have to get

  on the back of it because maybe they'll

  be bred like it there I don't oh my god

  I don't know I cannot him okay I mean I

  was grateful for them because they kind

  of you know patted out the line a bit

  but but I've kind of felt a bit sorry

  for I would find out the strangest

  moment to be in a way justifying the

  existence of the line to see you like

  someone gets at the friend like you

  don't seem that impressive who are you

  that is so weird I can't believe that

  that happens at all let alone like if

  you told me one person did it I'd be

  like well obviously there's some


  in this world but three people hmm

  that's one an hour on average I don't

  understand how those people can exist

  that is very strange to me I'm sorry

  that you had to go through that so from

  Washington I went on to Miami and like

  I'm not going to talk for ages about

  Miami but it was a weird place also were

  there expectations that you are going to

  talk for ages about Miami because

  everybody knows it's a place that you

  talk a lot about I have never been to

  Miami tell me how about a Brady I'm not

  going to go too much into Miami because

  you know I don't want to turn hello

  internet into what Brady did in his

  holiday but there was one thing that

  struck me as interesting and this was I

  mean probably the thing that's most

  famous for and its greatest essay is

  it's lovely big long beautiful beach big

  long sandy beach beautiful water always

  great weather all the hotels look out at

  the beach I had a hotel room looking out

  over the beach everyone sits by the

  pools at their hotel that are oriented

  so you can look out over the beach or

  you sit on the beach itself mm-hmm and

  everyone gazes this marvelous Vista so

  being America obviously this is seen as

  an advertising opportunity and they have

  lots and lots of planes dragging ads

  behind them and I actually quite like

  that I find that quite quite quaint and

  I'm in favor of those planes dragging

  ads through the sky on one condition

  they have to be those ads that are like

  made of like letters that have obviously

  been you know taken from a stockpile of

  letters and they just rearrange the

  letters depending on who the advertiser

  is you know that you know that cliche

  kind of I'm talking about right well I

  get would you want letter like you you

  want letterpress here like like a

  Gutenberg rearrangement of the letters

  for the advertisement because what

  happens now is some of the planes are

  dragging behind them like these huge

  obviously like silk-screened posters

  with like pictures of women holding

  machine guns saying come to our firing

  range and that sounds pretty awesome I

  think I could be sold on that that one

  was awesome but generally those ones I

  don't approve of it's a bit too

  high-tech but when there's those ones

  just like dragging

  like letters I feel like I've gone like

  to the 1960s or something and it's quite

  I feel like I'm in like Scarface or

  something and I'm back in Miami in some

  cool time okay but it but if it's like a

  bottom third banner advertisement on a

  YouTube video that's not cool

  that you don't like yeah what I want the

  letters I want the printing press

  letters so they're okay but there's

  another kind of advert that I was

  horrified by and that was every sort of

  20 minutes or so probably about a

  hundred 200 meters out to see this

  slowly chugging boat goes along like you

  know from right to left and then left to

  right along the whole stretch of the

  beach with this giant TV screen facing

  back to all the people on the land

  playing video ads at them and it just

  chugs along and you've got to watch all

  these video ads from this advertising

  boat that just chugs up and down the

  beach all day and I do not approve of

  that I'm gonna say that might be one of

  the most offensive kind of ads I've ever

  heard it was terrible

  it was terrible I cannot believe they're

  allowed to do it I think right below

  that the kind of ad that always bothered

  me the most is and it particularly see

  the minute in in Las Vegas is they have

  these in quotation marks I wanna say

  like trucks like their little trucks but

  on the back of them they're carrying

  nothing except a gigantic vertical

  poster right in either direction and

  those things always bother me because it

  feel like your whole job little truck is

  to drive up and down some of the busiest

  streets in a city just causing more

  traffic while advertising you offend me

  here at least don't have the

  advertisement be actively in the way of

  everybody else on the road and I've seen

  them in London every once in a while too

  and I was like those really bother me

  but to have someone essentially

  literally drag a TV across an ocean view

  yeah I feel it I would make me furious

  if I was on vacation that is horrific

  it's the way you know it's your thing

  it's their beautiful thing it's why

  you're there and like I like I said I

  can get on board with the planes because

  I don't know it's like from another era

  but the TV screens that's like a crime

  against humanity

  that's that looked like to me come on

  Miami sort yourself out yeah those


  quick sports ball corner gray doesn't

  involve a bowl this is from the world of

  athletics and something that I thought

  you might find interesting

  mm-hmm and there is obviously you know

  who wins things is quite important in

  athletics you get your gold medals and

  stuff but a sub important thing about

  athletics is who has the World Records

  who has you know run the fastest 100

  meters or who was throwing the javelin

  the farthest right now because of all

  the problems that athletics has been

  having with doping and things like that

  and drug cheats a controversial proposal

  seems to be close to becoming a thing

  and that is they are thinking of

  scrubbing the record books of any world

  record that was set before 2005 and

  that's because before 2005 they didn't

  keep samples since then they do keep

  samples so as they come up with like

  better drug tests and better ways of

  finding cheats you mean they can run in

  blood samples I think blood or urine and

  things like that I'm not sure exactly

  sure which I think I think that's the

  reason I'm pretty sure that's the reason

  so basically the rule the rules are such

  for World Records to be recognized it

  has to have been achieved at a

  competition that's unlike a list of

  approved events where I guess they have

  you know the right clocks and tape

  measures and stuff right the athlete has

  to have been subject to an agreed number

  of doping control tests in the months

  leading up to the event okay

  and the doping control sample that was

  taken from them after they set their

  record has to have been stored and

  available for retesting for ten years

  and basically up until 2005 that didn't

  happen since then they've had these more

  stringent requirements so I think for

  like the integrity of the sport because

  some of the some of these World Records

  for example the world records set by

  Florence Griffith Joyner who was a

  American sprinter and her records are

  considered pretty suspect but they still

  stand they've decided we can say that

  because she's died so we can defame her

  but anyway is that how that works okay

  yeah all right that's okay I'm not

  better than this I don't know how that

  in caves in defamation so what they've

  said is for sort of the integrity of

  these records they've decided to take

  this heavy-handed broad brush approach

  and say let's just wipe out all the

  records from before 2005 and of course a

  whole bunch of people who probably are

  clean and certainly say they're clean

  are saying hang on this is really unfair

  we're losing all our world records but

  this is the decision that there seem to

  be coming to let's wipe the slate clean

  start World Records from then I was

  wondering what you would think of this

  this is an interesting decision my first

  impression is you're telling me that

  somewhere in the world there's a vault

  with ten years worth of athlete's blood

  and urine samples like this that's what

  I'm getting out of this story's like

  somewhere they have these samples stored

  that is weird

  that is really weird to think about I

  think they would only keep the ones of

  people who have like won the medals and

  set the World Records I don't think like

  anyone who ever does anything has

  everything kept although I imagine they

  must have to try and keep 4th and 5th

  and 6th maybe they do it for all the

  finalists you've gotta keep a few right

  because we're gonna we're gonna go back

  in time and we're going to reset who's

  the record you're gonna have to test

  who's number two as well right yeah

  otherwise you're just filming the lead

  golfer all the time right and that's no


  to film everybody okay so after you get

  over the shock of the way in the blood

  no but isn't that interesting to you

  like do you think they're all in one

  place where do you think they I want to

  know where their caps I don't know I've

  seen like reports and stuff before from

  these facilities that do this it's like

  a whole industry you know checking

  athlete's samples for doping they always

  just look like big giant labs with

  fridges and freezers and if they decide

  to pass this new rule and then let's say

  one of the facilities that's storing all

  of the blood and urine burns to the

  ground do all of those people then lose

  their record there is an interesting

  question I think I think maybe there's a

  degree of higher powers there and people

  would say well that's not your fault

  you're not going to lose your record for

  that I think this 2005 thing is they've

  said we didn't really get our act

  together in terms of you know having

  good mechanisms in place to stop

  cheating into 2005 let's make that our

  new start point let's reset the clock

  you know and if there's a whole bunch of

  people who are saying they're sort of

  innocent victims but I mean I mean World

  Records are funny things anyway because

  it's not like they're it like you don't

  get medals for having a world record

  they're just like they're just pieces of

  information anyway yeah and even if

  someone new has the world record for the

  hundred meters

  women's hundred meters everyone's going

  to know it was run quicker you know in

  2002 but that one doesn't count yeah

  everyone's everyone's going to know that

  yeah that's how that works

  hmm I thought it was an interesting

  decision that you might have thoughts on

  because I I never really know where you

  stand on drugs in sport anyway I kind of

  part of me thinks you think maybe there

  okay so I'm pro doping really yeah it

  seems like a stupid arbitrary thing to

  say like oh we can do all of these

  things that are sports training which

  are all about manipulating the chemicals

  inside your body

  through physical means yeah and you can

  eat healthy food oh that's not fair you

  ate too many carrots that's making you

  really strong it's dumb like I'm all in

  favor of doping I don't even mean that

  as a joke I won a hundred percent I'm in

  favor of doping I think it's it's dumb

  that it's not allowed point people then

  like put their own lives at risk as I

  sort of push themselves to the limit own

  sports be more exciting when people are

  at people's lives are on the line or the

  game what's the downside here alright it

  seems like it's all upside the sport

  gets more exciting you're gonna have

  more impressive physical feats which is

  the whole purpose of it I have no

  problem with this I've no problem with

  this whatsoever

  well it amuses me that you think that I

  think it would be a little bit

  irresponsible if we allowed doping in

  sport yeah cuz sport is filled with

  nothing but responsible necessary

  responsible field it's all aboveboard

  everything's fine there's nothing you're

  responsible about the whole notion of

  professional sports in the first place

  but doping no that is too far sir right

  that work definitely that's not allowed

  I mean like all that crazy stuff about

  people doing like high-altitude training

  and like taking out their blood and then

  like pumping their own blood back into

  them it's like well that's not doping

  because it's your own genetic material

  like this stuff is crazy I'm totally

  fine with it like you want to take some

  steroids to be a better athlete I'm okay

  with that I have no say yes saying let's

  make sport like you know technological

  arms race and just take it to its


  wherever that is that it's that already

  like yeah yeah I got a camera where I

  came across it I came across something

  which was just talking about even like

  sports records as they relate to like

  baseball bats and tennis rackets and all

  kinds of things where you just you don't

  even really think about it but it's like

  oh of course of course there's actually

  quite a lot of technology that goes into

  a tennis racket and how it responds yeah

  to the tennis balls like oh yeah

  this is all like a thing anyway that's

  that's about progress yeah I mean your

  people so are countries with the best

  you know chemists will start winning all

  the medals but as it stands now the

  countries with the best training

  facilities win all the medals so I

  understand that argument I do think

  there's like a human safety element to

  some of the drug stuff that probably is

  worthy of consideration don't get me

  wrong it's worthy of consideration but I

  think well we'll just end up happening

  as well start genetically breeding

  people to be more receptive to those

  drugs to compete in our sports and we'll

  just end up with an entire class of

  people who are bred to be athletes I

  think that's the natural logical

  conclusion of this and it'll be an

  amazing sporting future would you rather

  watch that sporting contest between like

  the super bred drugged up uber humans or

  robots competing hmm or base this

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  supporting this episode of hello

  Internet so Brady piece of news broke

  through my bubble net which is we're

  going to have an election here in the UK

  a snap election a snap election how

  exciting the Prime Minister Theresa May

  is just decided let's have an election I

  thought this new law where you had an

  election every five years which was new

  to the UK was designed to stop this

  being like a thing you were allowed to

  do but obviously it's not I don't

  actually know what that new five-year

  law is for now if you can call snap

  elections anyway I don't understand how

  she's allowed to do it but it's

  happening so yeah we're we mentioned

  this once when the law first came out

  and my understanding is that that law

  was primarily to just shorten the

  maximum length between elections in the

  UK it was six years before wasn't it oh

  okay okay so this new this law whatever

  it's called about having a set election

  every five years on a set date is just a

  fancy way of saying the limit now is

  five years between elections that was my

  understanding of it and that seems to be

  the case background for Americans right

  there's there's this thing in the UK

  just very briefly where you can have an

  election at any point and then you have

  its what six weeks is the whole whole

  cycle before

  the election actually takes place like

  this is a thing that can happen in UK

  politics and it can happen either

  because you have a coalition government

  that falls apart or it can happen as has

  happened in this case where the party in

  power thinks that they can more firmly

  lock in their power and you can just you

  can have an election and the thing that

  happens now which i think is interesting

  is that it looks like it resets the

  clock so it's again the next election

  can be no more than five years from this

  election is the way it works so we don't

  have like a fixed election cycle in the

  UK in the same way that the United

  States does yeah and that is what has

  happened most recently with Theresa May

  calling the snap election in the UK and

  for those who don't follow British

  politics pretty obviously what's

  happened is the the opposition party in

  the UK is in such dire state and it's so

  far behind in the polls that I think the

  Prime Minister here thought it was a

  fait accompli that she would win an

  election and win it handsomely and

  probably increase her mandate and not

  only would it reset her clock she's

  probably arguing it'll give her a bit

  stronger mandate for all the bricks at

  who her and stuff that's to follow so

  it's sort of a opportunism isn't it or

  shrewdness or whatever you want to call

  it I saw your tweet I saw your tweet but

  which one tweet I don't even remember

  what we don't have a gate wait I think

  it was I think it was right because it

  was one of these things where obviously

  I don't follow the day-to-day of

  politics I have no interest of this but

  this did burst through my bubble from

  bunch of people sending me stuff about

  the election happening as soon as I saw

  it I thought it wouldn't have occurred

  to me but it does seem like there was a

  very clever move on her part some of

  those things in retrospect it seems

  almost obvious like it's a good decision

  for her to gain more power and to sort

  of lock in more more victories for her

  party I mean it may disgust for months

  and months but she just kept promising

  she wouldn't do it it wasn't a shock

  because no one thought she would do it

  like everyone thought it was a really

  obvious move but she just promised that

  she wouldn't do it so the reason it was

  a shock was because it was such a

  a brazen break of her promise I have a

  hard time holding someone to the notion

  of like if you've had the opinion once

  you have to have that opinion for

  forever yeah right yeah I wouldn't even

  pass it off cynically as like Oh

  politicians you can't trust them it's

  just like no you know you don't

  necessarily know what reasons like why

  things change even if it was just

  straight-up strategic to say like oh

  we're not going to hold an election and

  then later we're gonna do it anyway it's

  like yeah people have their reasons some

  I can never like fault someone for

  changing their mind I think it's okay to

  change your mind I don't think it's okay

  to lie for strategic reasons when you

  are a leader of people because then

  people could make decisions like if

  before an election you promised you

  would do something mm-hmm and you knew

  for a fact you wouldn't do it and

  everyone voted on you on that basis and

  then you did the other thing what hope

  have we got for democracy if like Strich

  eat like I'm not saying it will stop

  happening but if it's like acceptable

  and everyone's saying I know it's fine

  yeah yeah it's okay to lie I think when

  you do strategic lying that will never

  stop but I think you need to be cold on

  it and slept over the wrists I think if

  we create a world where strategic lying

  is like fine then what hope have we got

  as like voters but what like what like

  we dislike we're just flip flopping in

  the wind now because they can just do

  whatever they want there has to be some

  penalty for your strategic yeah and too

  much strategic lying has to result in

  you like you know getting kicked out

  we're a little bit of strategic lying

  you kind of get away with it yeah it's

  funny because it's like when I when I

  was first saying that I was having in my

  mind like I was going to go to some like

  World War two analogy about what will a

  leader say on the radio that's a dirty G

  collided like win a victory it's like

  yes but at the other end of that

  spectrum is just straight-up lies that

  we can all agree you're like terrible

  like I'm never gonna fulfill this

  promise at all lies so yeah obviously

  there's got to be somewhere there's got

  to be something that's somewhere in

  between there yeah I'm okay with being

  strategic about when you want to

  announce a snap election feels like it's

  someone who is already in office trying

  to time a thing I feel like I'm okay

  with that but maybe maybe much further

  is not okay is it a little bit like that

  because I know you're someone who is

  really opposed to gerrymandering ie like

  you think you think that's pretty poison

  thing that happens in the u.s. yeah

  right and that is a prime example of the

  people who are in power being able to

  manipulate the electoral system is snap

  elections another example of that they

  like she had the power and she's

  manipulated the system by calling the

  election at the moment that gives her

  the maximum opportunity to win not like

  an arbitrary fair time that's been

  decided this date in the future is this

  not like a kind of gerrymandering how is

  it different so yeah I think you're

  right that in a way this is a kind of

  gerrymandering but I'm more okay with it

  because I think this is again we have to

  talk like in the abstract about how do

  you have a government yeah system work

  like we're not talking about this

  particular election yeah I'm kind of ok

  with it because I think this is just the

  natural consequence of the way this

  system is set up that you could also

  have a moment where you have like an

  impasse in the government and then you

  can have an election that that occurs

  when there is an impasse and the

  election is like the thing that solves

  this political impasse if a coalition

  government isn't able to stick together

  and I think it's very hard to imagine it

  like a set of rules where you can have

  the government dissolve but not have it

  dissolved strategically this is like the

  consequence of the way the system is set

  up but I totally agree that there's this

  what has occurred now is probably the

  situation where someone is strategically

  dissolving the government in order to

  win by a bigger margin I mean she's

  pretty upfront about that just to

  quickly come back to this practical

  example they were mainly talking in

  abstractions I mean there was no real

  impasse in the UK and no one has even

  pretended there was she she basically

  has said I want a stronger mandate you

  know going into the next few years with

  all the things that are ahead for the UK

  and to be fair the opposition all the

  other parties lay down and approved it

  like you know it went through the

  Parliament so it's not like they all

  said cried foul and said stop that so

  but I don't think it's not even like


  she manipulated the system and created

  some bill over which no one could agree

  that would result in the Parliament

  collapsing she just basically said I

  want more votes what do you all say who

  and you know what opposition isn't going

  to approve an election because you look

  cowardly if you say no

  putting aside the particulars of the

  policy this was just a totally brilliant

  game theory move right because I think

  this whole situation with brexit and

  then the UK having another election

  she's able to do the like do you want to

  vote to make us stronger in a

  negotiation or do you want to make us

  weaker in a negotiation it is such a

  killer electoral move and to time it at

  a place where yet the opposition party

  seems like they are particularly weak I

  don't follow the details of a day to day

  but I expect that the Conservatives are

  going to walk away with like a huge a

  huge victory over this one it's hard to

  imagine how that that wouldn't happen I

  do think that that she's right in a way

  that the more resounding of a victory

  she can win like the better it makes it

  for the UK negotiating with the European

  Union and it's like oh god like what

  like you're trapped in this in this

  position where is she's made it almost

  feel like if you don't vote her way you

  were voting against the best interests

  of the UK that's why I did think like as

  soon as I like I heard that the election

  was occurring and then I saw her little

  speech about like oh you need to you

  need to vote with us or you're against

  us you're against the UK thing I was

  like man it just feels like it's a

  really clever little game theory win on

  the behalf of the Conservatives so I

  just I think it's an interesting

  situation and I'm going to be very

  curious to see how it turns out but I'm

  expecting that they're really gonna

  clean house yeah they're anything I

  disagree with him what you just said was

  capturing it as like some brilliant move

  like she's just solved from ours Last

  Theorem or something I think it was like

  just bit of an no brainer and she was

  just a bit ruthless I don't think you

  know she's pulled off some political act

  of genius like it was just like everyone

  was saying for months

  yeah she'll probably call a snap

  election because she'll crush him and

  increase her majority and then sure

  enough that's what she did it's not just

  calling the snap election it's the it's

  the tie in with brexit that's what makes

  it a stronger position I'm not saying

  that this is like ooh this is some

  strategic 3d chess move it's an

  interesting thing that has occurred in

  the way this system works and I think

  combining it with brexit it just feels

  like a kind of trap for the voters where

  you you have yeah very little

  maneuverability yeah I guess I guess

  that the the sneaky move was calling a

  snap election after triggering yeah yeah

  that's what it is

  it's no longer a revote on bricks like

  bricks that's happening you can't stop

  it now but are you going to sabotage the

  country or not that's probably the

  interesting thing about the timing if

  she'd said I'm not going to call article

  50 until you decide on me as your new

  prime minister then it would have become

  referendum too right it's like oh well

  you know I'm flying this plane we've

  taken off we know where we're going and

  now are you going to let me pick the

  crew that I fly the plane with or not

  we're all on this plane together like we

  needed to get where it's going and we

  can't get you out of the cockpit so it's

  almost crazy to try to like pick people

  who are going to work against you it's

  just that's why I think it's just it's

  an interesting thing it's also sort of

  like sad to see the opposition parties

  are trying to negotiate with each other

  to run candidates or not run candidates

  in various districts based on who was

  going to win or who is like it's just

  you can see all of the side effects of

  the strategic voting that has to occur

  everywhere else it's just you know again

  that's just like a just a very

  frustrating situation take an

  interesting thing about politics cry

  yeah like just to touch on you know my

  consumption of news again I'm really

  into my political podcast at the moment

  there are quite a few I like listening

  to particularly American politics you

  know it's become so interesting now that

  I've really increased my intake of

  American politics stuff and there's also

  like a few like there's a satirical

  magazine that comes out every two weeks

  in the UK called Private Eye which deals

  a lot with politics and it's one of my


  of things to read and I've always got

  great pleasure from these things but the

  problem is because you know I'm a busy

  person and there's so much of this stuff

  you can't consume it straight away you

  know you've got a picture times when you

  go for a drive or you go to the gym and

  stuff and in the last year or so

  politics has just started changing so

  quickly that all of these things become

  completely pointless to listen to within

  hours of coming out it's been a really

  crazy thing I guess I'm helping make one

  of your arguments here in a way but like

  this stuff is changing so soon that if I

  have any podcast about American politics

  and I don't listen to it that day and

  leave it three or four days I may as

  well be listening to them talk about

  Andrew Jackson or something it's so out

  of date like stuff they're talking about

  it's crazy I don't know why politics is

  moving so quickly now I don't know

  whether it's changed or I've changed or

  something but it's just everything's

  just happened so fast now it makes my

  head spin has something changed that's

  made politics go into some kind of

  fast-forward or is it just like it's

  just a weird little time we're living in

  at the moment or is it just the way I'm

  perceiving it right I know I know you

  don't follow it but you must be aware

  that all this stuff that's happening so

  quickly now I feel resistant to

  arguments about how things are happening

  faster now than they have ever been I

  wonder because I think that that is

  almost certainly going to be affected by

  how much people are discussing things

  the amount of talking is going to make

  stuff feel faster than otherwise like I

  am NOT saying that things aren't faster

  I'm just saying that like your

  perception of how fast things are

  essentially what I'm saying here Brady

  is I think you might be subscribed to a

  lot of political podcasts right which

  are talking about a whole bunch of stuff

  and you only have so much time to

  actually listen to your political

  podcasts which then makes you aware of

  all the ones you didn't get to have

  become totally meaningless and

  irrelevant than the time that has passed

  and so then it feels like wow things are

  things are going by so quickly because I

  didn't get a chance to listen to these

  three other political podcasts about

  this thing yeah I understand the point

  you're making there perhaps I framed

  that incorrectly and made it sound like

  I listened to loads and loads of them


  like two or three of them and I do

  listen to them within a few days and

  they just seem out of date really really

  quickly so why do you listen to them

  then I think a big part of it is the

  Fiat the handful I do listen to I like

  the people as much as anything which is

  always an import of a podcast I'm just

  enjoying smart hearing smart people talk

  about interesting things in an

  interesting way so it's not that I'm

  like some you know total political

  junkie I mean I think what's happening

  in America is quite interesting at the

  moment it's quiet it's quite a show but

  I don't think that's the whole reason I

  think I also just enjoy listening to

  these people but like so many things

  that landscapes is changing really

  quickly it's kind of a bit dizzying

  sometimes and the UK doesn't feel that

  much different and this snap election

  has certainly hasn't helped like it's

  just just when the UK felt like okay

  let's sped in for two years of brexit

  slog it's like no no we're having

  another election she called the election

  you know a few days before the council

  elections and so there are election

  results coming in during the election

  campaign and it's like wow man it's a

  bit fatiguing to be honest it's a bit

  fatigued maybe you should you should

  listen to fewer blue and I need a good

  beekeeping one do you know any however

  find some like it I get a good

  beekeeping recommendation start one it

  could be called the buzz with CGP grey

  and it's just all about that latest

  happenings in the world of beekeeping I

  was about to say there's no possible way

  that there can be news in the beekeeping

  world but if there's anything I've

  learned from the internet right it's

  that is that everything is a world unto

  itself right every topic has an infinite

  amount of depth to it so I'm absolutely

  sure that there's like beekeeping

  monthly and a podcast and politics

  within the beekeeping world every topic

  is an infinite topic of course there's

  been another big election though this

  has been the French election did you

  follow this ah do you know what happened

  no I was already there was been a French

  presidential election I wanted to ask

  you about their voting system but if you

  don't even know what happened you

  probably not going to oh I know about

  the two-round French voting system yeah

  okay I know that okay okay I think you

  probably should know that there was a

  which presidential election on the

  weekend but I totally respect that you

  don't win see and let's think that's

  good because that will make your

  discussion completely non-political

  which is which is great how many

  elections happened worldwide every month

  there must be a bunch yeah but from

  France is a pretty big important country

  and this is like you know particularly

  in the context of are you saying other

  people's elections are not important

  Brady that's what that's what I'm here

  is particularly in the context of what's

  happening in the EU and although we're

  not going to go into the details the

  nuances of this election you know

  involving you know who was running and

  what was going on and some of the

  implications in a broader context this

  was an interesting one this was why did

  I miss something important like as

  someone who missed the whole thing

  what's different now than before the

  father runt the final two-person runoff

  was between a centrist candidate and a

  far-right candidate who was very anti

  Europe so it was considered bit of a a

  referendum on that was this going to be

  like a you know brick suit

  rerun after recent election results

  where more right views have prevailed a

  lot of people were thinking is this a

  trend that's going to continue this

  woman who was running for French

  president was quite extreme from quite

  an extreme side of politics so there

  were lots of eyeballs on it to see what

  what would happen and in the end the

  sort of more centrist candidate won the

  two-person runoff

  in bit of a landslide but the thing that

  was interesting from purely a voting

  perspective was the round before where

  there was just this right-wing candidate

  and then lots of other candidates who

  were left and centrist in that they all

  split the vote amongst themselves and

  the right wing and that did really

  really well so but then what happened

  was when it became a two-person runoff

  all the people then consolidated behind

  the the centrist one so it was just

  really interesting from a sort of an

  electoral Theory perspective so I

  thought maybe you'd followed it for that


  now that sounds like the system works

  then that is the French system like it's

  round one one vote per person and then

  you pick the two most popular and they

  face off in the final election it's a

  better system than the

  first-past-the-post system but that's

  not hard to do because first bad suppose

  is the worst ever is it a better system

  than the transferable vote though what

  are the advantages or disadvantages to


  run off system versus a transferable

  vote just having one round in the first

  place and everyone just has their

  priorities and knows that everything's

  going to get shuffled around in the end

  to where it should be if I'm going to

  rank these two things I would say that

  the two round system is better than

  first-past-the-post but it's not as good

  as a as a ranked method like single

  transferable vote or Instant Runoff

  around it's because you're losing you're

  losing information about preference what

  you're essentially doing is you're

  having to first-past-the-post votes one

  after the other in the two round system

  and so it sounds like in this latest

  French election that what can happen is

  exactly this where you get you get a

  candidate who has a smaller fanatical

  base that sticks together wins they get

  a bunch of votes and then there happens

  to be somebody else who is also has a

  bunch of votes who might be like a

  centrist candidate like the round two

  essentially is an option to undo the

  winner of round one in a way like that's

  what the two round system is doing

  whereas if it was just a straight run

  off of straight first-past-the-post vote

  wasn't happen but the thing with like

  with a single transferable vote system

  or an instant runoff system is you're

  able to say like oh I like this person

  and that person is more information to

  work with yeah about how much the people

  like each of the candidates and and what

  their ranking is better than

  first-past-the-post not as good as some

  other systems even with this you get

  very quickly into this this kind of like

  fun debatable area where with all voting

  systems like I like them because you you

  have to be making some kind of

  negotiation between what the mathematics

  tells you about how systems work and

  then what is it that you are valuing in

  an electoral system which the math can't

  possibly tell you and it's why arguments

  about this stuff will never end because

  there's no mathematical answer to say oh

  this system is obviously the best you

  can only just say this system meets a

  bunch of different criteria in better or

  worse ways and then ultimately there has

  to be

  human judgment about which of the

  criteria matter more than others there's

  no way to just say like oh this is the

  best or this is not the best but we can

  all agree that first-past-the-post is

  the worst

  I guess the advantage of the runoff I

  mean I think I agree with you I already

  like the transferable vote but I guess

  the advantage of the runoff is once you

  know people's preferences the first time

  around and the landscape changes you can

  like debate again in in the new context

  like yet you know you have the second

  election campaign for a few weeks

  suddenly now that the stakes are

  different and who's against who is

  different you might want to change your

  vote like you might think oh like hey if

  I knew it was good if I knew those two

  were the two most popular I'd want to

  hear what they thought about this and

  that and that it might change the way I

  vote so what I also think is really

  valid in a voting system is this whole

  idea of you know again in theory you

  should be voting for the person that you

  totally like that you agree with more

  and that you like more but let's be

  honest there's there's a huge amount of

  the voting system which is well I don't

  want that person in charge right like

  I'll take anybody but that person and so

  I think the two-round system it gives

  you that moment of saying like okay well

  I didn't like Joe Bloggs but when Joe

  Bloggs is running against Bob logs like

  oh he's that guy's the worst like I'll

  take anybody over here and it allows you

  to do that kind of switch like this

  there's that information change that

  happens between the rounds it's why

  something like a ranked system just

  happens to collect all that information

  upfront by asking you to order the

  candidates because that's implicitly

  what you're doing like would you like

  this person over this person over that

  person and then you're able to run like

  a bunch of theoretical elections like

  that's again that's the main problem

  with just a single first-past-the-post

  election is that you can very often end

  up with a candidate that the majority of

  the citizens all agree they'd rather

  have anybody else than that candidate

  and at least the two round system

  prevents that from happening because it

  allows people in the second round to

  consolidate around a candidate that

  everybody prefers to the other person

  it's fine but I do fine

  it's fine but I do fine

  mildly amusing that this massive country

  which is the nearest country to the

  country you live in just had this really

  like tumultuous interesting presidential

  election and you were just like mm-hmm

  like hell I plodding away driving your

  truck simulator and having the time of

  your life and then I would no idea was