351: You're Right, Father--Kill All Humans
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number 351 May 2017 welcome back
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everybody to the incomparable I am your
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host Jason stell I'm here this time to
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talk about another one of these this
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raft of interesting science fiction
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slash fantasy TV series that finished
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airing their seasons this spring that I
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enjoyed a lot and I want to talk to
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people about them and so what what I do
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is I have a podcast so I get to talk
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about them with people on a podcast
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instead of just in real life like most
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people so in this episode we're going to
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talk about humans a TV series that aired
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last fall actually on channel 4 in the
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UK and this spring on AMC in the u.s. we
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covered season 1 in episode 263 of the
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incomparable along with the first season
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of mr. robot actually and we're back to
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talk about season 2 of humans joining me
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to talk about it are these two fine
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gentlemen Moises Chu yan hello Jason how
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may I be of assistance
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thank you boy says it's good to have you
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here also here is he a human or not wait
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a second that's a wrong podcast it's Jon
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siracusa hello sometimes the a is upside
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down I know what is that what does that
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mean it and then it flips around is it
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like a little person going yeh with its
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arms and then it puts this arm down like
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oh or very confusing yeah they do that
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in the credits to all the a is flip
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around they're upside down maybe there's
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a maybe there's something fee Matic
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there I don't know so so humans before
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we fire off the spoiler horn and talk
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about the second season of humans I
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thought we would talk a little bit in
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general about it this show this is
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obviously the second season we did talk
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about it before the the when it
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premiered along with mr. robot the
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summer before last I always thought it
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was amusing that the show these two
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shows the show about humans is called
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mr. robot and the show about robots is
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called humans but it's not alert both
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shows are actually about humans actually
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about humans yeah turns turn out tones
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just it's amazing how that happens the
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idea here is that it's a near-future
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world that's basically like ours
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that these replicant type androids
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called synths exist they're very
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human-like in appearance which means
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they can be played by humans as actors
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but they are not sentient they are sort
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of intelligent enough to do jobs but
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they're they're kind of a just a almost
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like a slave race but they're not
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sentient they're just helpers they're in
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a human-shaped extension of technology
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but and this is the classic science
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fiction but a few of them become
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sentient and it raises all sorts of
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questions about how they interact in
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this culture and how their other fellow
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since are being treated there's a
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question of if you could make all of the
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synths intelligent what would happen to
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society creating an entire race of
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sentient beings that human has been you
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humans have been using just four four
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four servants and so the first season
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dealt with a lot of these issues and
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then the second season deals with even
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more of these issues what what what
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should we say to people who maybe
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haven't started this show about what
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makes it interesting well it's a it's a
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British show it is so it takes it's
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supposed to take place like in London
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right is that where they are yeah more
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yeah we the outlying areas you know
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maybe I don't know Essex I don't who
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knows sure yeah so what I would say to
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tell people to check out this show is it
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sounds like your basic sci-fi show and
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if it was on American television the
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premise you just described would be like
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death you would just know would be
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handled poorly but because it's a
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British show a it does things a little
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bit differently than you might expect
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if you're as an American television
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viewer so there's a little bit of extra
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you know off-kilter flavor to it and be
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I feel like it is it doesn't fall into
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most of the traps that every American
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show that wants to be sci-fi as what was
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that show that was on briefly there was
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like a like a buddy cop show where there
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was a police officer and yeah almost
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almost almost human with it with Karl
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Urban in Libra that's a great example of
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a similar issue premise handled way
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worse by an American show so especially
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we'll get to what I thought of season 2
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and a little bit especially season 1
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takes a light touch and really does
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concentrate on the characters and takes
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its time to get where it's going and
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it's cool and refreshing
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I agree the the basic premise the show's
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an adaptation of I think it's a Swedish
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series it's it's European in some
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respect and sometimes when it's late at
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night my brain gets addled and I refer
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to all European countries as one
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contiguous union of states I don't know
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in the same way that Jason refers to all
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British broadcast channels if you say
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yeah it's BBC for BBC channel 4 is this
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case yeah BBC Sky BBC Sky whatever
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that's just the actual sky in England is
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the BBC sky as far as I'm concerned it's
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usually cloud all the great BBC's all of
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them and the the thing that we get in
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the first season is a different angle
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than the original show necessarily took
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where it kind of it kind of starts out
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action movie like in the middle of
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something and you know some stuffs going
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on we kind of take take the gentle
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approach into this whole series of ideas
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and concepts and what-ifs and questions
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that play out across the I guess you
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would say the landscape of to two
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different families that are coming
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together and ripping apart from the
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inside in different respects one of them
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a suburban type domestic family and the
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other a family of synthetics who have
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become self-aware that are not the kind
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of I guess you would say in the
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classical definition of robot slave
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tools that happen to look talk and act
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in many ways like human beings to the
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extent that they can be played by
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British actors who just wear wigs
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colored contacts and adjust their
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movement slightly and I you know I like
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that they don't draw things out in some
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respects in the first season something
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that was mentioned back in episode 263
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when you guys talked about this and mr.
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robot and thankfully their chapter
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markers so if for some reason you're not
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caught up on mr. robot you can just skip
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straight to the humans bit is that is
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ended its first season in a way that
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that is kind of crazy making but that
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I'm okay with in in ways that we'll get
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into after the spoiler or into season
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two to an extent but I'm it's it's a
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show that has such a complexity of
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multi-threaded storylines going on
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simultaneously it's not just that
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there's an a plot and a B plot there's
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an a sub header 1 sub header 2 sub
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header 3 series of plots going on that
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are inter woven and simultaneous but at
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once not cheap to the extent of
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something like 2005 Best Picture winner
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crash where everything just happens to
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have something to do with everything
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else this this for me is much more the
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Internet of Things as people and
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grappling with with what a parallel
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current modern era would would do when
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faced with this stuff in a way that
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doesn't feel cheap and tacked on and
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plastic and thoroughly thoroughly ruined
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by by american-ness which i think is a
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probably mischaracterizing but agreeing
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with with the argument that john had the
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other thing that i love about the show
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like a lot of BBC itv BBC Sky type shows
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is that there's a cornucopia of folks
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that are in the regular cast that you
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know you've got mr. Grove from the mr.
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selfridge show that we have on PBS here
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Katherine Parkinson from the IT Crowd
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Gemma chan who has like three lines and
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fantastic beasts and where to find them
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is is one of the you know most you know
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face forward you know characters in the
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show in season two we get carrie anne
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moss from the matrix and without dipping
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into the spoiler side of things one of
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the things that that I think season 2
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earned is that we we don't just see this
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technological revolution as it were from
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one side of the Atlantic we get a look
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at what's going on in Silicon Valley and
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the types of people with a gigantic
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amount of money and not as many morals
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and how they are deciding to proceed in
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this brave new world of sentient AI yeah
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I'd say jumping on something John said
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there - about how it does
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feel because it's a British show it
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feels different I like that it that
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about it that makes it feel like it
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doesn't have it doesn't feel like it has
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high stakes when in fact it actually has
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incredibly high stakes and it does feel
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like it is it is a family drama in a lot
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of ways it's not set in some sort of
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future dystopia it's set in essentially
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what feels like the present day except
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for the science fictional elements there
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are a lot of things I like about that
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yeah it does it doesn't feel like the
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the new Planet of the Apes movies but
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they're similar levels of stakes of Oh
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know what's going to happen right this
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this does not I don't know either does
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this not bode well or do we bring this
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upon ourselves and we're looking at at
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and I guess you would say the the alien
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coexistence sort of sort of struggle but
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from something that that was really
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wholly created by ourselves well we
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should we should probably just fire off
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the spoiler horn and talk about talk
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about season two of humans but I
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definitely think it's on Amazon Prime in
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the US the first season so you might
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want to give it a watch and see what you
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think of this UK take on questions of
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sentience and and where these creatures
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might fit in our society and how how the
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existence of these kinds of beings might
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affect humanity in fact it affect the
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labour market which is actually I think
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one of perhaps it's more trenchant
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topics even though most labor is not
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being replaced by robots walking around
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looking like humans it's still an issue
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of the future of the labour market but
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with automation so there's a lot of
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different things to touch this on but
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we're going to blow up the spoiler horn
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here and and dive in to a little bit
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more about season two of robots
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all right things get really different in
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season two um they're there part of me
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thinks I'm wondering what you guys think
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about this part of me thinks that season
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one was originally conceived with more
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of an ending I said on the last podcast
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I really felt like season one was
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walking straight forward until the last
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episode to make all the sense on the
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whole planet conscious and then it very
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quickly ran away from it at the end of
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the last episode it felt to me as if the
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whole show realized wait we don't want
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to close off the story because we might
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come back and do more episodes and so
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season 2 has a little bit of a reset
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where they kind of have to add in some
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new storylines and figure out what to do
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with all the characters and I think
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there are parts of that that are
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problematic that they struggle with some
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of it figure out figuring out what to do
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and the irony of it all is that I feel
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like the last couple of scenes of the
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last episode of season 2 are exactly
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what I thought the last couple of scenes
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of season 1 would be with some of the
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characters mixed around so they sort of
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got to that dramatic point anyway they
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just decided to put it off a season well
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on a basic overall outline side of
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things I feel that decompression in
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season 2 where they either expected
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season 1 to maybe get a renewal pick up
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or they expected that to pretty much be
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it and just take the check to the bank
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from AMC probably spending more of the
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money on this than channel 4 did just
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because American cable channels even
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though you compare American cable to
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American broadcast budgets and cable has
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a fraction of the budget that broadcast
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show does and you know back end
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incentives and syndication and all that
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kind of stuff but those numbers for
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cable in terms of what people get paid
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on the production side of things the
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actors the directors the writers
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everybody absolutely Dwarfs what what
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British television production budgets
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are like you know where you have someone
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like Michelle Gomez from Doctor Who who
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is like yeah we just we we just kind of
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crank through it you guys it's great
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that you guys love the show so much but
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there is not a ton of money in British
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TV and there's a reason that a lot of us
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wanting to find a big film franchise to
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attach ourselves to so as far as I can
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channel 4 probably does actually pay the
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pay the load of it especially given that
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channel 4 in a much smaller country gets
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more people watching humans more people
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watch humans in the UK in the u.s.
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despite the massive disparity in
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population and it is made by kudos in
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the UK so it's probably on their
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schedules and on their more of their
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sort of budgets but even you know a
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little bit of backing from the US it
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probably has a better budget it just
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plain makes it something that can be
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done and instead of the British shows
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that'll do two seasons and be done
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they're suddenly going well it looks
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like we can stretch this out a bit and
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as much as I enjoyed season 2 it felt
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like it felt like creating additional
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runway to not run out of and and all I
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mean that just there's there's a bunch
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of cool dramatic stuff that happened
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throughout the course season two and a
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lot of cool character stuff that
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happened but I hated that I enjoyed the
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wrap-up of season two as feeling more
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satisfying because it felt like what we
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should have seen at the end of season
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one in terms of progressing the story
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along and they probably could have done
◼
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this whole show in like two six or eight
◼
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episode seasons and covered all of the
◼
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ground that they wanted to cover but
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it's you know inserting new characters
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inserting additional plot lines
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inserting more supporting cast that are
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that are conscious synths and that
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that's that that's kind of the struggle
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that I found myself with on when it
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comes to season two could be like Friday
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Night Lights right and Friday Night
◼
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Lights right you can just skip season
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two and pretend it never happened to
◼
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just literally stitch the last episode
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of season two on to season one and be
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like and all the sense woke up yay
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yeah it's like hey guess what okay you
◼
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watch none of this by the way
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carrie-anne moss is here and she has her
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daughter's consciousness or a backup
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version of it uploaded into a bunch of
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servers and also there is a synth who
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became conscious and now the final
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episode of season two is like a slasher
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movie and most of season two really
◼
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comes off like a horror show I do like
◼
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the idea that not all the censor gentle
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and that there is this psychopath synth
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who is who is she slot were acting
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logically but she does not care about
◼
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killing people or being violent but I
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want to talk about Carrie and moss
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because this is one of those things at
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first there's part of me that's like is
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this the American co-producer saying
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let's get some American characters in
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the show because she's American we start
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out and she's in California a day at a
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google-like company where there's a
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there's a charismatic CEO who's a
◼
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wunderkind and he's got ideas about AI
◼
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and he's hired her to finally give her
◼
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the money she needs to further her
◼
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project and at the beginning of the
◼
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season I was really intrigued by that
◼
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storyline because the idea there is that
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she has this AI in a computer and I
◼
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really like the the reflection there the
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opposition there of we have we know
◼
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there's AI it's happened urgently in
◼
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these synths out in the world and then
◼
►
here we have a researcher who's trying
◼
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to build AI in a computer completely
◼
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different tack tactic and technique and
◼
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I I was really intrigued about how that
◼
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might interact and it is one of the
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aspects of season two that I think ended
◼
►
up being kind of a failure there are
◼
►
some emotional notes in there but I feel
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like in terms of the themes of the show
◼
►
it didn't really challenge me to think
◼
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about the overarching themes of
◼
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intelligence and responsibility and
◼
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ended up being much more about a mother
◼
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who's grieving over the loss of her
◼
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child and trying to replace them in
◼
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artificial intelligence and I felt like
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the all that we really got in terms of
◼
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interacting with the since was this sort
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of haphazard attempt to put the AI in a
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synth body but it was never really clear
◼
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and it was ultimately you know it's sort
◼
►
of like that storyline just kind of got
◼
►
sniped at the end there's one final
◼
►
confrontation carrie-anne moss puts a
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you know puts the plant on her desk in a
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box and walks out of the building and
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that's the end and it was that was
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disappointing because I really thought
◼
►
that this was a an interesting
◼
►
opportunity to do the since intelligence
◼
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in a different light and in the end sort
◼
►
of nothing came of it I mean maybe
◼
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something will come of it in a future
◼
►
since the AI is now like out on the
◼
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internet and on servers in China or
◼
►
something but that felt much more like
◼
►
they were just sort of sweeping it under
◼
►
and getting back to their original story
◼
►
and making me wonder why we even had
◼
►
that plotline next season next season a
◼
►
subplot line with Michelle Yeoh set in
◼
►
Hong Kong and yeah ooping of Soviet
◼
►
co-production was Chinese TV yeah
◼
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Jon would you think of the great that so
◼
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the that AI I mean it was pretty early
◼
►
in the season and I was also kind of
◼
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excited to see it but but as soon as it
◼
►
appeared I realized very early on in
◼
►
season 2 something that would bug me for
◼
►
the entire season which is season 1 did
◼
►
the thing that you know first seasons of
◼
►
shows like this do or at least the good
◼
►
ones do it's like they don't tell you
◼
►
the whole condition of the world right
◼
►
away right just go goes about its story
◼
►
and soon you learn they're these things
◼
►
called synth and you know how do these
◼
►
cents work who has them what what do
◼
►
they do and like as the episodes
◼
►
progressed more and more of the world is
◼
►
revealed to you so you're you know does
◼
►
it look kind of like now but it's not
◼
►
quite like now and so it takes its time
◼
►
over the course of season one showing
◼
►
you revealing its world to you and
◼
►
revealing all these different
◼
►
interactions and by the end you kind of
◼
►
have a reasonable picture of it and then
◼
►
the season ends season 2 we more or less
◼
►
know how the world works and for me
◼
►
personally since I'm such a annoying
◼
►
stickler for this type of stuff in
◼
►
sci-fi um I was free then too you know
◼
►
you're not going to be revealing
◼
►
anything new about the world we even
◼
►
learned all about like what's his name
◼
►
Elster or whatever like and it's all
◼
►
family like we know all that backstory
◼
►
we know the current situation we know
◼
►
all the parameters and that left my
◼
►
brain free to think about unfortunately
◼
►
the the I don't know I have a good name
◼
►
for it but like the the sci-fi thing
◼
►
that I harp on all the time where if
◼
►
this is possible what would then what
◼
►
else would also be possible yeah
◼
►
Pandora's Box is already open why is it
◼
►
not wreaking more havoc than we've got
◼
►
yeah re not even for the a I think so
◼
►
like heard that for the subconscious
◼
►
thing for the AI specifically their
◼
►
premise in the beginning is that
◼
►
carrie-anne moss is working on this
◼
►
thing and she's got this AI and you know
◼
►
someone so forth and it's like the pitch
◼
►
of like the the Mark Zuckerberg
◼
►
surrogate dude it's like hey come to our
◼
►
company will give you the more resources
◼
►
your AI can't be contained we'll give
◼
►
you a bigger server farm and so on
◼
►
so and it's like alright listen we
◼
►
already know that non-conscious since
◼
►
not the conscious ones but the plain old
◼
►
non conscious ones are already smarter
◼
►
and more capable than this stupid grass
◼
►
computer thing you need a whole server
◼
►
farm you can't fit it you need a bigger
◼
►
server farm and you can't get your
◼
►
stupid in computer AI work the regular
◼
►
run-of-the-mill you can go to the store
◼
►
and buy one non-conscious since they're
◼
►
smarter and they fit inside a single
◼
►
packaging you charge them every night so
◼
►
I don't see how that fits in your
◼
►
worldview and yes I was also looking for
◼
►
an interaction between the disembodied
◼
►
AI and the body AI but that totally
◼
►
switched gears into a mother-daughter
◼
►
thing and by the way I had my first kind
◼
►
of like Harrison Ford effect thing with
◼
►
carrie-anne moss because when they first
◼
►
showed the scene of like when just
◼
►
showing flickering memories of her with
◼
►
uh you know our daughter at the
◼
►
waterfall and everything I totally
◼
►
thought that was her girlfriend because
◼
►
in my view no carrie-anne moss is the
◼
►
age she was in the matrix and so the
◼
►
other actors but they're it's like oh
◼
►
it's like you when you see Harrison Ford
◼
►
with like someone who was half his age
◼
►
you're like oh that works perfectly I'm
◼
►
just used to seeing that well I saw
◼
►
carrie-anne moss but this 20 year old
◼
►
girl I'm like you know it must be her
◼
►
girlfriend no it was her daughter it's
◼
►
her daughter I literally visually can't
◼
►
compute carrie-anne moss as not being
◼
►
the ages and I mean you saw a time
◼
►
displacement paradox where there was
◼
►
none yeah but anyway the detect the tech
◼
►
comparison of the AI stuff really hard
◼
►
that bothered me I accepted that because
◼
►
again I expected them to go place they
◼
►
didn't go and that's one of the things
◼
►
that frustrated me is that I was
◼
►
thinking cuz we're introduced to her and
◼
►
she's this amazing you know researcher
◼
►
who's at the forefront of AI research
◼
►
and she's finally going to be well
◼
►
funded and she's going to break this
◼
►
except we as viewers know it's done it
◼
►
already happened it happened naturally
◼
►
it happened to merchant Lee with you
◼
►
know with the help this this code that
◼
►
that what Elster was working on it's
◼
►
like we know that they made a
◼
►
breakthrough and that the sense can be
◼
►
smart we don't need giant servers to do
◼
►
it so I kept thinking it's like oh I
◼
►
think I actually said a lady you are
◼
►
about to be really disappointed right
◼
►
like all my life's work and then this
◼
►
happens and I thought that would be
◼
►
interesting drama like she's trying to
◼
►
try to revive her daughter she has has
◼
►
been thinking of AI as kind
◼
►
from this direction it's come from this
◼
►
different direction what is she gonna do
◼
►
can she adapt can is you gonna make a
◼
►
new kind of of sente I that is different
◼
►
in some way like I was ready for that
◼
►
kind of clash and there is it just isn't
◼
►
there's nothing there but but like I
◼
►
said I don't think it's a consciousness
◼
►
it's the non conscious since the regular
◼
►
ones that just bringing way yeah the
◼
►
sort of two ones those are smarter than
◼
►
area because hurry eyes like try and
◼
►
talk to have what do you think of this
◼
►
how do you feel bad it's the thing is
◼
►
like a toddler where is the the non
◼
►
conscious one I don't know in talk to
◼
►
like an adult and they can they can
◼
►
navigate the world and have bodies and
◼
►
can do chores and laundry you can argue
◼
►
I'd say it's differently intelligent
◼
►
because she's trying to replicate like a
◼
►
human with all these memories and all
◼
►
this and kind of have them grow up and
◼
►
yeah and all of that across a spread
◼
►
across a gigantic amount of virtual
◼
►
machines using a contemporary
◼
►
contemporary level processors and so on
◼
►
where is the synth technology is is that
◼
►
like unobtainium a kind of thing where
◼
►
they have this network that's on par
◼
►
with data from Star Trek
◼
►
yeah like it seemed like that it seemed
◼
►
like from different shows they just seem
◼
►
like they're from now and that's and
◼
►
that's why I expected it to be a rude
◼
►
awakening for her where marks occur will
◼
►
be like forget this server crash look
◼
►
the sins can do it she doesn't know
◼
►
what's going on in the UK she's just
◼
►
been toiling away in California has no
◼
►
idea oh by the way in UK they have like
◼
►
literal like you know intelligent robots
◼
►
wandering around not the conscious once
◼
►
again the conscious ones forget the
◼
►
conscious ones are just like and that's
◼
►
that's another thing of the show right
◼
►
the pitch of the show and it has to be
◼
►
the pitch of the show is that the
◼
►
sentient conscious synths are greater
◼
►
than better than more intelligent than
◼
►
more sophisticated than the non
◼
►
conscious ones right but I actually
◼
►
don't see much evidence that they are
◼
►
more human-like but I'm not entirely
◼
►
sure that anything on the show actually
◼
►
supports the idea that they are there
◼
►
more than you might be right because
◼
►
there are more like you know because
◼
►
they react more like humans and they
◼
►
have quote-unquote feelings but the
◼
►
other ones are very good at reading
◼
►
people and understand when you're upset
◼
►
and they do the stupid thing with a with
◼
►
a voice I can tell you are upset because
◼
►
your heart rate and but which is stupid
◼
►
but it shows that they have perhaps a
◼
►
greater understanding of humans than the
◼
►
conscious ones do and
◼
►
to feeling like they have directives
◼
►
they're just they're just not human like
◼
►
so we can't relate to them and they they
◼
►
acrobatically and talk erotica but in
◼
►
general they can do everything we can do
◼
►
and they could understand our thoughts
◼
►
and feelings and suggestions perhaps in
◼
►
a way is better than humans so that you
◼
►
know I don't know maybe maybe too much
◼
►
on the robot side here Joan did this
◼
►
season of humans make you distressed how
◼
►
well I was rooting for Niska to kill
◼
►
everybody a lot in the cold season too
◼
►
so I don't know I don't know if I'm on
◼
►
the right side of the show like I have
◼
►
this this this III had the same kind of
◼
►
anticipatory interest in what was going
◼
►
on at the carrie-anne moss thread where
◼
►
it was it was almost built like this
◼
►
self-aware AI classic monster narrative
◼
►
like Frankenstein's monster kind of
◼
►
thing of you've opened the door doing
◼
►
this and what are the consequences of
◼
►
doing that and that's kind of how her
◼
►
plotline ended up playing out where she
◼
►
tempted fate by taking Zucker jerks
◼
►
money and resources and access and
◼
►
everything and the dominoes kept falling
◼
►
to an extent but it just it didn't quite
◼
►
catch fire and I was I was getting bored
◼
►
with it and I wanted to be more and more
◼
►
excited about the level of of danger and
◼
►
and suspense that was in it and there
◼
►
was progressively less and less of that
◼
►
as the as the season ended up going on
◼
►
and at the same time I had I had this
◼
►
thought of along the lines of what
◼
►
John's saying where these sense who
◼
►
become aware and and have emotions and
◼
►
everything it's like the first few
◼
►
minutes of the episodes of Star Trek The
◼
►
Next Generation when data has emotions
◼
►
and all of a sudden he's not quite as
◼
►
efficient and powerful and great because
◼
►
he's compromised by having to compensate
◼
►
for these emotions that he's not used to
◼
►
dealing with these urges these feelings
◼
►
these things that distract him and I
◼
►
don't feel like the show did well I do
◼
►
and I don't there were moments where I
◼
►
felt like they played it really well
◼
►
with the various self-conscious sense
◼
►
that did have those sorts of crises but
◼
►
then others were just kind of dippy and
◼
►
stupid and distracted
◼
►
yeah and if anything it seemed like
◼
►
giving them that self-awareness giving
◼
►
them that consciousness if anything made
◼
►
them radically less capable of the Rise
◼
►
of the Planet of the synths kind of
◼
►
thing that we kind of thought we were
◼
►
going to get at the end of season one
◼
►
they're sort of kind of teasing at the
◼
►
end of season two or season two ended up
◼
►
playing with different versions of where
◼
►
it was we are going to lead our soldiers
◼
►
from their prison and we will take over
◼
►
this world and they will no fear and
◼
►
like x-men villain lines but I just I
◼
►
don't know that I if if they are going
◼
►
to play that the way that it seems they
◼
►
are which is that it's more of a
◼
►
liability than an advantage and this
◼
►
this brings me back to some of the stuff
◼
►
in the magician's about getting rid of
◼
►
your shade and not feeling your trauma
◼
►
not feeling post-traumatic stress not
◼
►
feeling any of that kind of stuff not
◼
►
having to deal with it
◼
►
viewing that as a distraction maybe
◼
►
maybe that's that's pretty much the the
◼
►
reverse that they have set up as the
◼
►
conditions of this world that having
◼
►
those kinds of emotions is something
◼
►
that is way more of a liability than
◼
►
anything else if that's the case then
◼
►
what are they doing in season 3 well
◼
►
they kind of infantilized this sense
◼
►
some of the sense make them be like that
◼
►
you know sort of scared toddlers or
◼
►
whatever but in order for them to have
◼
►
that robot skill all human story there
◼
►
have to be ones that are different than
◼
►
that the ones that have ambition and and
◼
►
are more sophisticated levels of thought
◼
►
like it's it's strange they try to
◼
►
actually you know put a pin on this
◼
►
thing of saying you're just like human
◼
►
some of you are nuts and some of you are
◼
►
dummies and you know like there is a lot
◼
►
of variety you got like max who's always
◼
►
smiling it looks dumb but has like you
◼
►
know wisdom and emotional intelligence
◼
►
and you've got the Elster kid it was
◼
►
just a jerk and doesn't know what that
◼
►
he's doing and you've got psychopath
◼
►
lady Hester and you got Niska who's I
◼
►
think the most identifiable as an adult
◼
►
intelligent thinking human who kind of
◼
►
sees what it's state what's at stake has
◼
►
the wherewithal to do something about it
◼
►
maybe conflicted about going one way or
◼
►
the other but actually acts like you and
◼
►
then the other ones that wake up like
◼
►
they never seem to get out of toddler
◼
►
phase and so it's not you know I
◼
►
appreciate that they're trying to show
◼
►
that there's a variety but if they're
◼
►
going to have since the versus using hee
◼
►
round one in the next season it's going
◼
►
to be a little messy it's not going to
◼
►
be like a West world kind of not even a
◼
►
West row kind of like semi organized
◼
►
revolt of some code yeah superior beings
◼
►
versus inferior beings it seems a lot
◼
►
more messing that which which may be
◼
►
appropriate well the the big revelation
◼
►
at the end of the episode of the last
◼
►
episode and something that I kind of
◼
►
liked was there is a there is an
◼
►
enjoyable speech that Laura gives to
◼
►
Hester the the murderous synth that and
◼
►
I really liked it because it is the show
◼
►
just laying down all its cards at that
◼
►
moment and she says um you're not you're
◼
►
not something different because she's
◼
►
very much like we're different and you
◼
►
have to respect us and you know we're
◼
►
gonna we're gonna be here and and I'm
◼
►
gonna kill people and it's gonna be
◼
►
great and and she's like we didn't make
◼
►
a new race we made artificial humans but
◼
►
you're humans you have the same problems
◼
►
and the same she said she says like if
◼
►
you were a human you would be diagnosed
◼
►
for your for your mental illness that
◼
►
you have and for the problems you had
◼
►
when you started life you are humans the
◼
►
synths are not an alien race they're
◼
►
just a different kind of person and we
◼
►
can we can debate whether the text of
◼
►
actually bears that out or not but I
◼
►
feel like that is actually what the what
◼
►
the what the producers have been arguing
◼
►
kind of all along which is that you know
◼
►
this is not the science fictional
◼
►
emergence of a global super intelligent
◼
►
robot it isn't Skynet awakening it's not
◼
►
it's just what it turns out these are
◼
►
people too to just like us except
◼
►
artificial but they're just like us and
◼
►
they have all the same problems that we
◼
►
do they're just an artificial bond maybe
◼
►
a little dimmer than we are though like
◼
►
I sort of said maybe just like as accept
◼
►
me I mean arguably make sense because
◼
►
they're literally younger like they're
◼
►
not that many exactly I have a childhood
◼
►
to go through but I mean but again for
◼
►
the show to be able to make progress on
◼
►
any kind of thought you have to have
◼
►
some of them be essentially adults like
◼
►
you know intelligent knowledgeable
◼
►
emotionally sophisticated adults the
◼
►
first wave is is is more and they try to
◼
►
show some of that in the first episode
◼
►
where they show the awakening of some
◼
►
new characters and you get that sense
◼
►
that like they're really kind of out to
◼
►
sea and we see with OD when OD gets
◼
►
upgraded which I again it was nice to
◼
►
see him because I liked the bittersweet
◼
►
nature of the William Hurt storyline
◼
►
from season one at the same time they
◼
►
kind of didn't really use him it was
◼
►
just sort of like we could bring him
◼
►
back I was hoping he was gonna go to the
◼
►
priest and decide you know what you're
◼
►
right father kill humans like he's like
◼
►
he was trying to arrive like he was
◼
►
obviously conflicted he doesn't really
◼
►
know where his place is he's trying to
◼
►
side in the end he decides to go the
◼
►
other direction just you know off
◼
►
himself back to robots Ville can't
◼
►
handle the pain of being alive at a time
◼
►
but like but I'm not understanding like
◼
►
not quite sure what I could do like and
◼
►
yeah but a lot of interesting problems
◼
►
it just kind of didn't go anywhere with
◼
►
the other one that really really chapped
◼
►
my whatever's that expression is which
◼
►
is a classic sci-fi thing which I don't
◼
►
know if is it a Star Trek episode you
◼
►
guys can tell me the experts the Travis
◼
►
but but certainly there are a million
◼
►
other ones you've got yes you've got
◼
►
Niska and she turns yourself in because
◼
►
it's her move to do let's see if you are
◼
►
conscious you can do just a whole season
◼
►
with that is the a lot and be super
◼
►
interesting and they just left it all on
◼
►
the table just a lost opportunity able
◼
►
like the few scenes they had of like
◼
►
their interrogators like how much you
◼
►
paying for these lawyers because they
◼
►
are terrible really I may have never
◼
►
Astaire never read a sci-fi book in
◼
►
their life what are you even doing yeah
◼
►
I mean one of the most iconic episodes
◼
►
of the next generation is called the
◼
►
measure of a man where Captain Picard
◼
►
basically defends the humanity of data
◼
►
or actually no he he he argues against
◼
►
it and commander Riker has to has to
◼
►
defend data and it is those nights yeah
◼
►
okay her prosecutes data Picard says no
◼
►
no he's sentient and it is important
◼
►
thing is a bald guy in a guy with a
◼
►
dual in a courtroom over the sentience
◼
►
of an artificial human here it's women
◼
►
in suits yeah what what could be a more
◼
►
like that has been done so many times
◼
►
the core of so many sci-fi stories and
◼
►
you can like just if you just copied
◼
►
other people that you can do it well and
◼
►
they would just seem so uninterested
◼
►
into in what makes us conscious or alive
◼
►
yeah it's it's it's let's throw this
◼
►
red herring on a table and then just
◼
►
sweep it all back into the bay I was so
◼
►
excited to have that be one of the plot
◼
►
lines I thought this is really like
◼
►
early on the season this is really going
◼
►
good we got Kerry and moss in this clash
◼
►
and she's gonna be you know rude
◼
►
awakening that her research is wasted
◼
►
because the you know the sense was the
◼
►
answer and then we got the the legal
◼
►
thing and the legal thing yeah it is a
◼
►
rich storyline too even if the ultimate
◼
►
results is the same which is the powers
◼
►
that be have got their thumb on the
◼
►
scale and they're just not going to let
◼
►
you could have still explored this is
◼
►
what the show is about right it's
◼
►
exploring issues of what is she what
◼
►
does it mean to be human what does it
◼
►
mean to have rights this is this is you
◼
►
could there are political ramifications
◼
►
storytelling like this there's so much
◼
►
you could do with this that makes for
◼
►
good science fiction and instead it they
◼
►
like get to the point where it's ready
◼
►
for the good stuff to happen and then
◼
►
nothing nothing happens because instead
◼
►
they're like let's have a conversation
◼
►
with Niska the the the the artificial
◼
►
like they just like ask you some
◼
►
questions oh let's bring your girlfriend
◼
►
and it's like what are you even doing
◼
►
with this like both both sides we were
◼
►
not able to prosecute there it's worse
◼
►
than that it's it's literally we're
◼
►
gonna hook her up to a lie-detector well
◼
►
she has no bodily functions right so
◼
►
we're gonna show her pictures of scary
◼
►
things oh I really like showing the
◼
►
scary pictures like that you can't be
◼
►
conscious it's like maybe she's just a
◼
►
psycho man like what maybe she like you
◼
►
as if you just try to judge and no and
◼
►
no legal arguments right there no legal
◼
►
arguments made am i it was I completely
◼
►
wrong in like reading this kind of
◼
►
there's some sort of shadowy government
◼
►
conspiracy thing going on there's some
◼
►
person behind like no it's just it's the
◼
►
powers that be don't want this
◼
►
government just want to get rid of this
◼
►
dangerous machine the way it felt if it
◼
►
felt like they were teasing that there
◼
►
was that kind of person behind the
◼
►
curtain kind of thing but then none of
◼
►
that even happened no I think I mean I
◼
►
think they were saying all along that
◼
►
that they could make this argument but
◼
►
in the end there's just no way it's
◼
►
going to happen because humans aren't
◼
►
ready for this and that's how if they
◼
►
had done it well they would have had
◼
►
them do the argument and it would have
◼
►
been a right good argument and you would
◼
►
it maybe some people would come away
◼
►
feeling that they've proved their case
◼
►
and maybe some people would feel they
◼
►
wouldn't but in the end it won't matter
◼
►
because like Jason said if the fix was
◼
►
and that's fine I would've been a fine
◼
►
way to end it they just skip the whole
◼
►
milhorn middle yeah that could have been
◼
►
good drama yeah it's it's a real shame
◼
►
absolute so much of where I'm this like
◼
►
giant bundle of knots about this show
◼
►
where I feel like I'm a pile of
◼
►
contradictions where I love so much of
◼
►
what they do and then I find myself
◼
►
going wait why did they not do that and
◼
►
the counterpoint do I have that I have
◼
►
to this specific thing is if anything it
◼
►
feels like it feels like this entire
◼
►
season is symbolically playing with the
◼
►
notion of they they have awoken and they
◼
►
are going through a version of of
◼
►
self-conscious puberty and this is like
◼
►
the adolescent stage of their awakening
◼
►
and that's why so many things that that
◼
►
could go the mature hard sci-fi route of
◼
►
you know mature thought and all that
◼
►
kind of stuff gets thrown out the window
◼
►
because the the sense that have emotions
◼
►
decided every turn to be petulant
◼
►
teenagers and go no we're going to burn
◼
►
everything down there's going to be a
◼
►
revolution and we're gonna rule the
◼
►
world and we're gonna friggin kill him
◼
►
and so yeah and and and it feels like
◼
►
they didn't commit enough to that if
◼
►
that's what they were trying to get
◼
►
across well they were also just trying
◼
►
to save themselves like their main
◼
►
thrust of the little band of you know
◼
►
the party of since until the very end
◼
►
was like we know since they're waking up
◼
►
we need to protect them because it's a
◼
►
hostile world and it slowly transformed
◼
►
into like well the only way to protect
◼
►
them is to you know find the people who
◼
►
are getting them and the people who are
◼
►
kidnapping them we should probably
◼
►
probably kind of kill them all and then
◼
►
you know it was it was building up to it
◼
►
also the the I expected I mean to your
◼
►
point Moyes as I expected max who is one
◼
►
of my favorite characters he's so
◼
►
friendly and smiley and he's the very
◼
►
nice synth and I expected I expected him
◼
►
to be yeah I expected it to be max in
◼
►
opposition to Hester right where it's
◼
►
like no peace and love and we're all
◼
►
going to be fine and we're going to take
◼
►
care of each other and kill all humans
◼
►
right max just bails he's like I'm not
◼
►
hanging out with this psycho they said
◼
►
they set up that fracturing of the synth
◼
►
family and then they didn't do anything
◼
►
no again a missed opportunity where max
◼
►
just sort of lives on a train that's in
◼
►
a railroad car somewhere in this agency
◼
►
helps them sense that and then they just
◼
►
waits for the other people to come back
◼
►
then yeah I just again it's just it's
◼
►
just kind of baffling because that's
◼
►
another point of drama what did you
◼
►
think of the of the plot with with Rini
◼
►
the girl who acts like a synth and then
◼
►
a daughter who tries to act like a synth
◼
►
they did not they maybe it's not
◼
►
possible to do but I certainly think
◼
►
they did not do a good enough job of
◼
►
explaining why the heck people would do
◼
►
this like I know they want this to be a
◼
►
thing like oh and by the way some people
◼
►
pretend to be since right why why do
◼
►
they better to do I know I know somebody
◼
►
who in high school she was a huge Harry
◼
►
Potter fan and she would literally wear
◼
►
like a Gryffindor cape to school and do
◼
►
a fake English accent because she just
◼
►
wanted to live in the world of Harry
◼
►
Potter and she was a Harry Potter
◼
►
superfan and she was a weird kid right
◼
►
but why does someone want to be a synth
◼
►
because they suck well I think I think
◼
►
Rimi Rini is is very much like she's got
◼
►
lots of problems at home and she this is
◼
►
like her way of escaping that she gets
◼
►
to suppress emotion making for an
◼
►
individual character you might have a
◼
►
reason but this pitch on the show is
◼
►
that this is a thing yeah it is just so
◼
►
it's like grunt is the thing look like
◼
►
pretend synth is the new grunge I don't
◼
►
get I don't think that it's attractive
◼
►
enough to be a subculture and certainly
◼
►
I don't see much of an explanation for
◼
►
poor Sophie to be into it yeah like they
◼
►
do it as a dramatic thing to what should
◼
►
we do about sofo it's like why what's
◼
►
what selfs motivation to do this right I
◼
►
don't it doesn't just didn't connect to
◼
►
me and I mean here's the other thing
◼
►
when they're on the screen one thing
◼
►
they code done is played up the aspect
◼
►
that played up the idea that people who
◼
►
are tending to be since are annoying
◼
►
because they sure annoyed me yeah like
◼
►
stop it you're not a synth and so this
◼
►
should have shown shown them annoying
◼
►
other people and being abused for
◼
►
pretending to be since I still think
◼
►
that would have required you to buy into
◼
►
the idea that that is there is a reason
◼
►
that a large number of people want to be
◼
►
since which I didn't buy into but at the
◼
►
very least like what I'm getting to is
◼
►
every time they were on screen
◼
►
pretending to be since I was like stop
◼
►
it I didn't like Sophie pretending to be
◼
►
since I didn't like how the family was
◼
►
handling it I didn't like the friend
◼
►
pretending to be since it was all like
◼
►
being a synth is no freaking fun it's
◼
►
not as fun as being Harry Potter it's
◼
►
stupid and I didn't like that subplot of
◼
►
I have it I have another thing about
◼
►
this subplot that bothers me which is
◼
►
there are several moments when they're
◼
►
talking about this that I said to myself
◼
►
is this meant to be a metaphor for
◼
►
people being trans because there are
◼
►
several moments where they're like oh
◼
►
well you need to you know respect her
◼
►
her her pronouns basically yeah
◼
►
man I could not agree with you more on
◼
►
this like that that would that was what
◼
►
really skeeved me out of and it but and
◼
►
that bugged me because I then I would
◼
►
analyze it and go but it's not this
◼
►
isn't like that at all yeah because in
◼
►
the end they have her you know go and
◼
►
take a bath and take off all her stuff
◼
►
it's trying to say oh they'll all snap
◼
►
out of it usually uh which eventually
◼
►
Billy is gonna stop wearing dresses and
◼
►
deciding that he wants to be a girl even
◼
►
though it's the Bentley in fact that
◼
►
Billy is no Sally yeah I don't think
◼
►
they leaned on it that hard and I think
◼
►
I mean I certainly was rooting for me to
◼
►
snap out of it because of what she was
◼
►
doing was stupid and had nothing to do
◼
►
with anything else but you know if
◼
►
that's what they were actually trying to
◼
►
pitch it as that's awful well you're
◼
►
supposed to hate the I mean the fact
◼
►
that that the son like said like really
◼
►
disrespects her and I felt like those
◼
►
were moments that are very much like
◼
►
he's basically like dead naming her he
◼
►
is he is challenging her pronouns he is
◼
►
making her wrongs not video that he wins
◼
►
in the end he's like yeah that's right
◼
►
we're just gonna hang out on the couch
◼
►
and watch TV and you'll be human again
◼
►
yeah everything is normal yeah and
◼
►
you're going to conform you're going to
◼
►
conform to what makes him comfortable
◼
►
not wait yeah it's it's you know people
◼
►
people hate the P word problematic and
◼
►
oh gosh you know can we please stop
◼
►
catering everybody and affirmative
◼
►
action everything but but the the
◼
►
problematic nature of it for me is that
◼
►
when I started to feel like wait a
◼
►
minute is this is this some writers
◼
►
deciding that they're going to do a
◼
►
trans metaphor and then it brought me
◼
►
back into thinking about something that
◼
►
I constantly think about watching a
◼
►
bunch of sci-fi shows you know Star Trek
◼
►
even being one of them as progressive a
◼
►
Star Trek is there is so much ethnic
◼
►
uttering that is in the way that they
◼
►
characterize alien races where you've
◼
►
got Klingons with fu-manchu's beards and
◼
►
they're there there was that kind of
◼
►
icky feel to the way that they were they
◼
►
were trying to metaphorically play these
◼
►
synths of varied races and genders as
◼
►
metaphors for for for you know slavery
◼
►
is just something that you get with
◼
►
robots because that's that's part of how
◼
►
they're set up where the word comes from
◼
►
that that's pop that's part of why this
◼
►
is such a problem because I there is not
◼
►
a massive trend that people across the
◼
►
earth pretending to be slaves because
◼
►
active proposition other you know
◼
►
outside weird you know sex stuff or
◼
►
whatever like yeah outside of people in
◼
►
in full-body latex suits being walked
◼
►
like a dog across the street yeah but
◼
►
that's different I mean like like
◼
►
literal actual American style slaves
◼
►
like no one wants to be that because
◼
►
it's not a fun thing to be no one wants
◼
►
to be no one would want to be a synth to
◼
►
the degree that it would be a widespread
◼
►
thing one or two people have serious
◼
►
mental problems and use it as like a you
◼
►
know to hide from their like a difficult
◼
►
family situation or whatever fine but to
◼
►
be like everyone just knows that's the
◼
►
thing and like you know one in five
◼
►
people in your school are pretending to
◼
►
be since they're they wouldn't want to
◼
►
pretend to be since it's boring it's not
◼
►
there was there was new wave and there
◼
►
was Punk and then there was sin so
◼
►
here's the thing that's the real missed
◼
►
the real missed opportunity here is is
◼
►
when they do this whole thing with Rini
◼
►
and she takes off her out of you know
◼
►
offer her contact lenses and she's just
◼
►
sitting on the couch is the real shame
◼
►
of it is what I wanted to have happen
◼
►
because I think it would be an
◼
►
interesting thing to see how characters
◼
►
would process it is all the people who
◼
►
acted like synths in order to take away
◼
►
emotion and seem less human how do they
◼
►
deal with the fact that all of a sudden
◼
►
all the sins have feelings and he are
◼
►
just as human as us and like what is
◼
►
that what does that mean that you your
◼
►
identity that you were trying to emulate
◼
►
is now gone and they're like you I think
◼
►
it actually might be kind of interesting
◼
►
but we don't get there either because
◼
►
they cut that storyline off and resolve
◼
►
it and it's kind of uncomfortable I'm
◼
►
trying to I'm trying to think of things
◼
►
I liked I actually enjoyed the second
◼
►
season but I was really frustrated by it
◼
►
I felt like they didn't like weather
◼
►
wasn't well planned or whether they had
◼
►
some ideas and then realized halfway
◼
►
through that they just weren't working
◼
►
it just seems like or whether it really
◼
►
was one season worth of story and then
◼
►
they kind of had to invent a second
◼
►
season well honestly it feels like they
◼
►
had that first season of tight a lot of
◼
►
really good stuff a lot of really
◼
►
well-thought-out well-planned stuff and
◼
►
then they had a bunch of like when we go
◼
►
around and draft and it's like bringing
◼
►
out your dead they had this bring out
◼
►
your dead box of stuff that people
◼
►
scribbled on note cards of oh you know
◼
►
would be cool is if like the little girl
◼
►
when the family decides that she wants
◼
►
to pretend she's a synth like Mia slash
◼
►
would be neat let's find a way to work
◼
►
that they wrote down a bunch of story
◼
►
ideas but they didn't video going it's
◼
►
build a whole subplot into that let's
◼
►
like that there there's their conscious
◼
►
sense that are introduced in season two
◼
►
that seemed like they have the beginning
◼
►
of a hook and then they're anything
◼
►
they're nothing if not just throwaway
◼
►
characters that are just window dressing
◼
►
yeah they have so many characters in the
◼
►
show like I don't know you know season
◼
►
one is you're just a ton of characters
◼
►
right and and I think I think most of
◼
►
the actors do do a good job with what
◼
►
they're given in this and most of them
◼
►
are likable in some way but in season
◼
►
two I almost kind of wish that rather
◼
►
than introducing yet more characters
◼
►
that they had shed them because the
◼
►
thing I like most about season two was
◼
►
seeing the characters that I've come to
◼
►
know and love from season one
◼
►
I loved Niska I would like to see what
◼
►
Niska gets up to all the time
◼
►
I like Mia I loved Niska when she wasn't
◼
►
in the middle of the stupid stupid legal
◼
►
plot I really loved Niska I loved
◼
►
niska's I think the scenes with her and
◼
►
her girlfriend in Berlin are beautiful
◼
►
they're beautiful and sad and and
◼
►
wonderful and they fall in love and
◼
►
Niska has to figure out how she's going
◼
►
to react and how she's going to tell
◼
►
yeah that's beautiful I liked the let's
◼
►
say I liked these the plot with um with
◼
►
the police woman I thought that was so I
◼
►
liked Karen with her with her boyfriend
◼
►
uh and and her crisis of confidence that
◼
►
she has where she almost like regrets
◼
►
him knowing that she's a synth because
◼
►
she likes pretend you know um sir yeah
◼
►
that was yeah Sanae talked and the the
◼
►
the thing I love so much about Pete her
◼
►
boyfriend is that he is like
◼
►
stereotypical English cop yeah just on
◼
►
his be trying to do his job like a real
◼
►
he knows since they're not he knows he's
◼
►
batting way out of his League it's
◼
►
another schlubby guy and beautiful woman
◼
►
scenario on TV he looks like a Ricky
◼
►
Gervais who is actually focused on
◼
►
acting and doing well what he can do
◼
►
well rather than being Ricky Gervais and
◼
►
really like digging deep into the
◼
►
character and playing it for for
◼
►
everything and letting everything count
◼
►
and his death honestly for me landed in
◼
►
a way that didn't feel like fridging
◼
►
that is you know where we see characters
◼
►
killed off on shows for the sake of
◼
►
advancing the plot motivating heroes
◼
►
that kind of thing you know it felt
◼
►
earned and it didn't feel like something
◼
►
that I was expecting the whole way going
◼
►
forward it managed to surprise me and we
◼
►
could have lost more than him yeah
◼
►
that's what I'm saying like so I there's
◼
►
all the characters that I like and then
◼
►
there's a whole swath of people who I
◼
►
just not interested in anymore
◼
►
like a lot of them yeah right or are are
◼
►
plots hob came back from season one one
◼
►
of the big bad types of season one who a
◼
►
lot of people would probably best note
◼
►
if they actually saw alien 3 as one of
◼
►
the pivotal characters in alien 3
◼
►
fantastic actor it was great getting to
◼
►
see him for a moment there you know
◼
►
there there were there were some of
◼
►
those kind of like brief things Josie
◼
►
Lawrence comedian plays the synth
◼
►
therapist who I remembered from the
◼
►
original British version of whose line
◼
►
hilarious brilliant comedian hob as
◼
►
Hobbs seen is great too because they
◼
►
bring him back for one scene he's like
◼
►
look I signed an NDA I can't help you go
◼
►
talk to this person and then he's gone
◼
►
that's it it's it was he's gone she's
◼
►
like I'm staying here if you want a big
◼
►
pile of money in a vacation home they'll
◼
►
never be seen again ah yeah I guess what
◼
►
he doesn't cause he never contacts her
◼
►
again that's right II like that I was
◼
►
totally on board with but it's like
◼
►
we're getting toward the end of the
◼
►
second season and they're like by the
◼
►
way max needs a girlfriend we're gonna
◼
►
introduce this girl kindergarten teacher
◼
►
and and yeah all the people on the train
◼
►
and then Leo and just like introducing
◼
►
Hester it's just like there was just too
◼
►
much and Mia's weird side plot with her
◼
►
guy who she works for who she kind of
◼
►
falls in love with but not quite and
◼
►
then he betrays there like it was just
◼
►
Jen you know any warts and like yeah you
◼
►
concentrated on like concentrate on the
◼
►
five characters that I care about the
◼
►
most not saying you have to have one
◼
►
like it's possible you know the maximum
◼
►
number of characters you can get me
◼
►
interested in have their own plot lines
◼
►
was really lost really press the
◼
►
boundaries of that like how many
◼
►
characters can you have and sustain so
◼
►
that they care about them and I think
◼
►
humans had too many for the very least
◼
►
this writing stay are able to to work
◼
►
through and but everybody got a story
◼
►
everybody got a thing they felt like
◼
►
we're doing a great job everyone's got
◼
►
their little arcs but some of them are
◼
►
dumb Tom Tom Goodman Hill who plays mr.
◼
►
Grove on mr. Selfridge and plays a
◼
►
jerk dad on this show he got to like
◼
►
come out as being like you know what I
◼
►
banged the one synth last season and
◼
►
turns out I want to like move to the the
◼
►
sleepy British town version of like
◼
►
Rhodesia that is quote-unquote racist
◼
►
against synths and yes such an
◼
►
understanding wife because the way she
◼
►
how she doesn't look at him and say
◼
►
you're an idiot and I adhere how she
◼
►
stays with him I don't quite understand
◼
►
like harsh levels well but he like he
◼
►
Susan's like that's it I'm taking my
◼
►
family and going to nonsense Ville and
◼
►
if you disagree I'm divorcing you it's
◼
►
like get the hell out of here also you
◼
►
were you were the guy who got laid off
◼
►
from his job in the factory she's the
◼
►
successful attorney right and he's
◼
►
giving a crap about oh you're gonna go
◼
►
work again oh well you know whatever
◼
►
it's important to know you got to go to
◼
►
your work it's like come on yeah like
◼
►
she is she was too understanding I
◼
►
really like the wife and but that's the
◼
►
other thing like they have the plot the
◼
►
first season with the tension between
◼
►
the two of them and they said you know
◼
►
let's do that again for season 2 have
◼
►
him be angry about the fact that she has
◼
►
to go to work yeah like come on yeah
◼
►
let's stretch out this in this fraught
◼
►
relationship just for the sake of
◼
►
knowing well we're probably gonna get X
◼
►
number of seasons out of this thing so
◼
►
let's just yeah keep that going for as
◼
►
long as you got to worry about soap
◼
►
right mm-hmm like ice all talk about
◼
►
what we can do about soap and the Sun
◼
►
the Sun has the love subplot with Rini
◼
►
and the sofas just us her stupid thing
◼
►
and what's-her-name that the daughter
◼
►
gets to be computer hacker well that's
◼
►
what I was gonna say meanwhile their
◼
►
daughter is their older daughter is a
◼
►
computer genius who has solved / solved
◼
►
the problem / ended the world yeah she's
◼
►
saving / destroying the world one of
◼
►
those two she's definitely doing it she
◼
►
is I want to follow her cuz she's doing
◼
►
interesting stuff Maddie she's great
◼
►
she's my favorite character I think
◼
►
because certainly among the humans
◼
►
because she has compassion for the
◼
►
humans she has compassion for her family
◼
►
although she seems a removed from both
◼
►
and she's really smart and and I like
◼
►
that when she gets cross-examined by the
◼
►
the murderous synth Hester she like
◼
►
Hester really wants to have a reason to
◼
►
kill her and and she's like you know
◼
►
totally believable she's like no I'm on
◼
►
your side I believe in you I believe in
◼
►
all of you and it's like she's a good
◼
►
person and she's going to make this this
◼
►
revolution happen if in the end she saw
◼
►
like gets that last word of like yes you
◼
►
go ahead and do it I should do it and
◼
►
she presses return on her little surface
◼
►
keyboard and off we go to the races
◼
►
everybody's going to become conscious
◼
►
you know I really like that character
◼
►
there right but you're right John for
◼
►
every minute that we get of Maddie we
◼
►
get you know a couple of minutes of me
◼
►
as near to well like diner owner
◼
►
boyfriend that she commits tax fraud
◼
►
with and then he we don't care about
◼
►
it's like you can't fill out forms he
◼
►
needs a robot we do it forms like
◼
►
another winner yeah I'm not I'm not even
◼
►
saying that we have to have just a
◼
►
strictly like ABC plot structure we can
◼
►
go ABCDEF even but this is an ABCD efg
◼
►
hijk LMNOP and all over the place it's
◼
►
it's almost like they're just thrown
◼
►
against the wall to distract us from the
◼
►
fact they're they just happen to kind of
◼
►
dovetail into each other and I find
◼
►
myself again it's like this I I enjoyed
◼
►
season 2 but I kind of hate myself for
◼
►
enjoying it as much as I think that I
◼
►
did because I feel like I I just got I
◼
►
get distracted into watching the show
◼
►
and being like well I guess I got to
◼
►
keep watching this cuz Niska is gonna be
◼
►
back in about 15 minutes probably I like
◼
►
I like the actors I like a lot of the
◼
►
stuff that's in the show and that's
◼
►
enough to get me to watch it and enjoy
◼
►
it and even say that I think I think
◼
►
it's unlike so many shows on TV that
◼
►
it's worth a watch but that doesn't mean
◼
►
that I didn't find it incredibly
◼
►
frustrating and that they and you know
◼
►
this is the shame of it if this was a
◼
►
bad show I would just write it off and
◼
►
be like well they don't know what
◼
►
they're doing is that what's frustrating
◼
►
is all of these like missed
◼
►
opportunities could have probably been
◼
►
good if they had taken a few of them and
◼
►
done them better but instead they just
◼
►
kind of pour them all on the blender and
◼
►
like that's my disappointment the show
◼
►
is that it could be way better and they
◼
►
just kind of they kind of blew it I
◼
►
still watched it all and we'll watch the
◼
►
third season of it but boy it could have
◼
►
been so much better and they just kind
◼
►
of and they just kind of kind of blew it
◼
►
I think one of the structural things
◼
►
that makes this season like though is
◼
►
talking about about the threads and like
◼
►
how it doesn't hold together is like and
◼
►
season one had the same number of
◼
►
characters right it's because and
◼
►
getting back to los 2 also had a huge
◼
►
number of characters but manages to
◼
►
sustain interest in them is that I one
◼
►
way that I've seen successfully to do
◼
►
this in both season one of humans and
◼
►
loss is to have a central mystery
◼
►
you got your seventeen bazillion people
◼
►
but the central mystery of season one is
◼
►
hey what's the deal with these conscious
◼
►
scents and we eventually learn what the
◼
►
deal is and about their creator and
◼
►
where they came from and why they're
◼
►
conscious and and the son who still
◼
►
alive does have a scent like the central
◼
►
mystery weaves them together what's the
◼
►
central mystery of season two there is
◼
►
none it's just a bunch of stuff going
◼
►
off in different directions and we
◼
►
eventually arrived at the Alba since
◼
►
waking up but there is no central
◼
►
mystery that is slowly revealed through
◼
►
the actions of other people who
◼
►
eventually come together there's none of
◼
►
that there's so many different stories
◼
►
and stuff that are going on they seem
◼
►
like kind of vignettes not like a
◼
►
threads all coming together to reveal
◼
►
something in the end it's something that
◼
►
if this were a quote unquote traditional
◼
►
22 episode of season American show I
◼
►
would already be checked out yeah but
◼
►
the fact that we're getting a season arc
◼
►
of story and if they end up doing five
◼
►
seasons of eight episodes of piece and
◼
►
we end up with 40 uh you know 45-minute
◼
►
episodes of this show I'll end up
◼
►
sticking with it more readily than I
◼
►
will a show that is killing itself to
◼
►
stretch out to five seasons of 22
◼
►
episodes that you know lost lost is lost
◼
►
and lost happen at a very particular
◼
►
time I miss lost lost happened during
◼
►
college for me and I didn't get on board
◼
►
the train and streaming didn't exist and
◼
►
look technology was really weird but it
◼
►
was it was something that that was just
◼
►
a thing that people did and it is really
◼
►
difficult to capture that magic in a
◼
►
bottle and I'm I'm totally fine looking
◼
►
at going okay the first three seasons
◼
►
worth of this show is going to be
◼
►
roughly the same number of episodes as
◼
►
one season of an American show that is
◼
►
spinning its wheels like crazy and this
◼
►
one at the very least as incredibly
◼
►
scattershot as all of it is it's all
◼
►
still at least moving forward so I find
◼
►
myself forgiving it way way more readily
◼
►
than I do you know a 13-episode show on
◼
►
Netflix that should be half that order
◼
►
I didn't realize short seasons because
◼
►
this is seemed longer to me you just
◼
►
that doesn't feel like it's spinning as
◼
►
wheels but you know realize it's just
◼
►
eight episodes right season yeah eight
◼
►
episodes most exams way longer I felt
◼
►
like there was a way more treading water
◼
►
even within the few lowly the the
◼
►
carrie-anne moss problem there's no
◼
►
momentum right yeah because there's so
◼
►
much shifting from storyline to
◼
►
storyline there's no relatively speaking
◼
►
I think a lot of it for me is feeling
◼
►
like it feeling like I'm investing less
◼
►
time overall is because I'm so used to
◼
►
you know shows going hey we've got a new
◼
►
45-minute show that's gonna have 22
◼
►
episodes of season I'm alright I'll try
◼
►
the first view of them and I'll go oh
◼
►
god I can't I can't do this anymore and
◼
►
it feels like a blessing to to know that
◼
►
I am at maximum only going to be
◼
►
trudging through a certain amount of
◼
►
stuff like you know timeless on NBC I
◼
►
think I ended up just putting on in half
◼
►
watching in the background and barely
◼
►
paying attention to and the only reason
◼
►
that I stuck with it was because I
◼
►
didn't really have to pay a lot of
◼
►
attention to it but a show like this
◼
►
that I have to pay more attention to I'm
◼
►
willing to give eight episodes worth of
◼
►
time to it then even take a chance on
◼
►
most 22 episode shows huh and the
◼
►
ambition of it keeps me around to the
◼
►
idea that like this is a show that is
◼
►
actually trying to explore complicated
◼
►
issues of what does it mean to be human
◼
►
what you know what what would be the
◼
►
impact of these cents on on culture and
◼
►
society what would it mean if there was
◼
►
a second intelligent species on our
◼
►
planet and how would we treat them and
◼
►
would we be be fair to them or would be
◼
►
cruel to them I mean these are big ideas
◼
►
and I think that I cut the show slack
◼
►
because I like to see a TV show that
◼
►
dares to explore those big ideas even if
◼
►
it is kind of fumbling around and
◼
►
confused and stuff too much in the bag
◼
►
well the Toby and Ann Rainey thing where
◼
►
she hands over her adult options 18 plus
◼
►
you know scratch off ticket to her
◼
►
sexual agency and just like gives it to
◼
►
him I was like oh good he's rejecting
◼
►
this and but then the way that that
◼
►
played out was very perfunctory Toby's a
◼
►
good guy and this is him showing that
◼
►
he's a good guy he's going to make good
◼
►
and it it's just kind of left there and
◼
►
I don't know that they're gonna pick it
◼
►
up and do anything with it necessarily
◼
►
it was just like hey yeah this is
◼
►
something that we had on a note card in
◼
►
shoebox and we're gonna we're gonna burn
◼
►
this one off because hey we got it to
◼
►
burn off so why no Toby and Sophie need
◼
►
to go away to camp all right yeah go
◼
►
live in the country during the Blitz
◼
►
they need to go wherever the the one
◼
►
sister on Family Matters went upstairs
◼
►
and never returned from for just a
◼
►
little while just a little while in
◼
►
season three Joe has taken Toby and Soph
◼
►
to the synth free community and we don't
◼
►
see them right they just say that for
◼
►
the whole season the people who we care
◼
►
about actually get stuff done yeah
◼
►
exactly right that yes they've buried
◼
►
all three of those characters in a point
◼
►
of no return for me where I it would
◼
►
take a significant amount of rolling
◼
►
uphill to even get me interested in them
◼
►
so speaking of season three I'm thinking
◼
►
about where you can go and what you said
◼
►
Jason about the show is that it really
◼
►
is classic sci-fi let's take this a sign
◼
►
space premise and use it to you know put
◼
►
up a mirror to society involve ah so
◼
►
anyway with all the sense awake
◼
►
you have many directions that you can go
◼
►
in season three the one that they
◼
►
probably won't go in because it cost too
◼
►
much money is all out human robot war
◼
►
right be awesome but this is not the
◼
►
budget of the show does not support you
◼
►
all at human robot war unfortunately oh
◼
►
good news they got they got they got
◼
►
money for wigs and contract yeah that's
◼
►
right and and and suburban house said
◼
►
yeah gardens and and office buildings
◼
►
yep and sometimes the green fields
◼
►
uh-huh give yourself so many corridors
◼
►
if you love corridors this is you sure
◼
►
yeah yeah alright many quarters that's
◼
►
the thing about these shows like I'm you
◼
►
know bringing to other shows that are
◼
►
similar Cybermen's and similar like
◼
►
budgets you know colony and travelers
◼
►
they they do so much with so little
◼
►
money yeah like to really ambitious
◼
►
broad sci-fi premises and it's like lots
◼
►
of interiors and people in close and
◼
►
talking like and you know it works at to
◼
►
varying degrees but for a season three
◼
►
with this show you can do you can decide
◼
►
what you know what is your analogy here
◼
►
like in the same way I think one of the
◼
►
shows that did this the best was the
◼
►
good parts of Battlestar Galactica as a
◼
►
reflection on the rock war yeah right
◼
►
like that was so timely and and
◼
►
no perfect and a great use of sci-fi to
◼
►
talk about something without talking
◼
►
about it without talking about so season
◼
►
3 they could do they could do apart I
◼
►
they could do you know racism issue
◼
►
brings it season 3 is the brags that
◼
►
seats right they can do brags it they
◼
►
they could they have so many different
◼
►
choices they could you know if they want
◼
►
to redeem themselves they could do like
◼
►
homosexuality like there's so many
◼
►
having suddenly this group of others but
◼
►
are they really that other type of thing
◼
►
they can go in some one different
◼
►
direction and all those things do not
◼
►
require big budgets it just requires
◼
►
like people talking and having feelings
◼
►
and people holding protest signs and
◼
►
being angry and so I think despite the
◼
►
fact that I thought like if they all
◼
►
wake up a lot that's the season over
◼
►
they've done enough establishment that
◼
►
the tip that the cents are not they're
◼
►
not a Skynet would would would be
◼
►
disappointed in them yes they're bad
◼
►
they are bad at exterminating humans
◼
►
they're just pretty lousy and in the end
◼
►
they probably just mostly want to live
◼
►
so I feel like you have to go more of a
◼
►
district nine direction or something
◼
►
like that only with less score yeah and
◼
►
so I'm kind of looking forward to them
◼
►
doing that in season three as long as
◼
►
they get rid of the characters I don't
◼
►
care about right integration kind of
◼
►
issues of issues of racism and
◼
►
integrating two cultures and I was
◼
►
actually going to throw out it's a
◼
►
little like German reunification kind of
◼
►
thing where it's like okay as a culture
◼
►
we've decided to put these two cultures
◼
►
together and there's going to be a lot
◼
►
of bad feelings and there's gonna be a
◼
►
lot of frustration and how do we make
◼
►
this work together because they've just
◼
►
been or like alien nation maybe a little
◼
►
bit where yeah that kind of paranoia
◼
►
stuff you get from alien nation like I
◼
►
could see that really working where
◼
►
season two a lot of a lot of the stuff
◼
►
that kept me kept waking me up as I was
◼
►
kind of starting to get bored of the
◼
►
wheel spinning was where it turned into
◼
►
a slasher movie sort of and and if if we
◼
►
can get some kind of like follow the
◼
►
Berlin Wall into the cold
◼
►
Karen's got a new partner and they're
◼
►
solving synth crimes yeah this old
◼
►
subscribe the other way you know this is
◼
►
uh again I'm read the comic book
◼
►
suggesting the one not so great movie
◼
►
but sort of x-men sentinels type thing
◼
►
because if we take a face value these
◼
►
sort of general docile nosov most since
◼
►
the what would actually happen I feel
◼
►
like in the scenario is that humans
◼
►
would kill all since they put him in put
◼
►
him in camp was not to put him in camps
◼
►
they would just kill them well you kill
◼
►
the dodo birds like they would just like
◼
►
we're going to kill them in the same way
◼
►
the Sentinels are killing all the
◼
►
mutants there's no what they were doing
◼
►
yeah but would that be interesting
◼
►
though if then you had people pretending
◼
►
to be since so they've got the contact
◼
►
lenses in and you've got maybe since
◼
►
pretending to be humans putting in
◼
►
contact with less attractive to pretend
◼
►
to be a synth when they're when they're
◼
►
being exterminated you know but you
◼
►
fusion where people are killing since
◼
►
that turn out to be people and there are
◼
►
people that look like people but are
◼
►
actually sensitive very complicated but
◼
►
with that but that would like that would
◼
►
end season 3 prematurely but I feel like
◼
►
that with things establish as they are
◼
►
humans are really really good at killing
◼
►
other species that are competing for
◼
►
them with them in any possible way right
◼
►
like that's how we get to be the top of
◼
►
the food chain we kill everything else
◼
►
and so yeah suddenly there's another
◼
►
sentient race and before you get the
◼
►
sentence out of your mouth humans have
◼
►
killed every single wolves they've
◼
►
killed they're gonna kill like if you
◼
►
are remotely a threat to us we will kill
◼
►
you all we're really good at it we have
◼
►
all the weapons and you are generally
◼
►
docile and just waking up right but that
◼
►
would end things real quickly unless you
◼
►
wanted to do a scenario where the
◼
►
Sentinel slash humans are kill all the
◼
►
Simpson is like seven of them left in
◼
►
there and hiding and that's what the
◼
►
show is but I don't think they're going
◼
►
to do that either well we'll find out
◼
►
with the next season when it airs
◼
►
probably like next week on channel 4 in
◼
►
the UK and then in a year and a half on
◼
►
AMC because that's what happened I
◼
►
wonder if they'll put them more of them
◼
►
on trials really like that it would be a
◼
►
natural thing to happen in season 3 for
◼
►
the good direction they're probably
◼
►
going to go in terms of like are you a
◼
►
human or are you a citizen or whatever
◼
►
the office the office of synth crime I
◼
►
hope it's not so bad a trial as those
◼
►
that's the bed what I'm saying like they
◼
►
get they get another shot at it it's
◼
►
like we can you know it's got a new
◼
►
group of riders in who has read a
◼
►
science fiction book in their life or
◼
►
watch a Star Trek episode and say we can
◼
►
do that better we feel like so let's see
◼
►
what we can do there yeah they can
◼
►
overall you know Victims Unit
◼
►
they can't go all the way to alien
◼
►
nation because the only nation it would
◼
►
be like season 5 of this show where it's
◼
►
like alright well we've accepted that
◼
►
they're here but it's an uneasy tension
◼
►
between the groups unless they do a time
◼
►
job which they could yeah if they want
◼
►
to suppose they don't like salt water
◼
►
you know okay I think the same thing
◼
►
again but as my mind works away at all
◼
►
the things don't make sense about the
◼
►
premise of the show aside from the fact
◼
►
that if it took you just to do since so
◼
►
much other awesome tech would exist but
◼
►
apparently doesn't is the idea that they
◼
►
charge themselves they show it a lot in
◼
►
the program like if they got a little
◼
►
apple watch charger on on their on their
◼
►
yeah and it's an important thing and
◼
►
like Karen you know that's yourself
◼
►
discharged and the kid saves her like
◼
►
it's a plot point and as a mechanic that
◼
►
they lean on right and I feel like you
◼
►
know the same reason sense would be
◼
►
killed like the damn dodo birds is
◼
►
and it's especially Miskin stop their
◼
►
stuff together if you don't know how to
◼
►
produce electricity like every sin like
◼
►
you are ompletely reliant on these magic
◼
►
plugs but in human beings running power
◼
►
plants for you to give your electricity
◼
►
since need to know how to generate
◼
►
electricity because it literally keeps
◼
►
them alive it's like humans not knowing
◼
►
how to breathe and like you know
◼
►
something else breathing for them we
◼
►
opened the second season with with a
◼
►
synthetic coal mine so I mean they're
◼
►
they're doing all the manual labor side
◼
►
I know but like do they understand how
◼
►
electricity works do they know like if
◼
►
they killed all the humans would they be
◼
►
like we kill all the humans but then I
◼
►
put this plug in the wall to charter
◼
►
myself at night and it's not working I'm
◼
►
gonna be dead by morning like it seems
◼
►
like a really important like prime
◼
►
directive of like figure out how to get
◼
►
food essentially or you're all going to
◼
►
die that every since should be really
◼
►
super duper concerned about a source
◼
►
electricity so much so that they're
◼
►
paranoid about movie you know why we go
◼
►
hang out in the woods I need to plug in
◼
►
every night or I'm gonna literally die
◼
►
so I feel like this if I was a synth
◼
►
that would be my number one concern
◼
►
which is like if we kill all the humans
◼
►
do you know how to make electricity
◼
►
because does it just come out of the
◼
►
wall magically because if we don't do
◼
►
anything it will stop coming out of the
◼
►
wall then we'll all be dead never
◼
►
overthinking it yeah there's a bit of
◼
►
hand-wavy 'im of of all of the sense
◼
►
having some central repository of
◼
►
knowledge where between all of them I
◼
►
guess they all know how to run society
◼
►
perfectly on their own I guess
◼
►
maybe maybe yeah is they they felt they
◼
►
fill all the different roles and they
◼
►
feel like they will just slot right into
◼
►
the same slots we were in before and
◼
►
we'll pick up where they left off as
◼
►
long as we don't break all their stuff
◼
►
it that that's that's somewhat plausible
◼
►
though you can like trying to gauge
◼
►
yeah well that's nice game part of it is
◼
►
it just it works it just works it's fine
◼
►
well we'll find out for season 3 at some
◼
►
point who knows when on BBC channel 4
◼
►
and AMC but and we'll be back to talk
◼
►
then but until then I want to thank my
◼
►
guests for talking about this show with
◼
►
me Moises Cheon thank you thank you
◼
►
Jason let me know if I can be of further
◼
►
assistance and Jon siracusa thank you
◼
►
forgot to mention the robo run just
◼
►
every one picture it now run with your
◼
►
arms really stiff alright we're gonna
◼
►
run away penguin with your arse on
◼
►
fire and maybe all the scents are now
◼
►
waking up cliffhanger
◼
►
this has been the incomparable I've been
◼
►
Jason Snell we'll see you next time