The Talk Show

189: ‘Long Press on the French Fries’, With Special Guest Rene Ritchie

 

  uh so how are you it's been a while like [TS]

  I have a lot to cover because I my last [TS]

  episode was the Lisa Jackson episode so [TS]

  it wasn't really news related so it's [TS]

  there's a lot on the agenda [TS]

  um trying to think of more even where to [TS]

  start I guess we could start with board [TS]

  early results I don't know um I know I [TS]

  mean well I just wrote a big piece but [TS]

  about iPhone sales in China but I I [TS]

  don't know I don't think it's a major I [TS]

  don't think the quarterly results this [TS]

  time were all that bad or good you know [TS]

  I think long story short my take on them [TS]

  is that there was a pretty good quarter [TS]

  everywhere except China and it was sales [TS]

  iPhone sales continuing to slide in [TS]

  China turned a pretty good quarter into [TS]

  an ok quarter where yeah they flat you [TS]

  know glad I think is a great word to [TS]

  describe it and there were two things [TS]

  that Tim Cook said that really stood out [TS]

  to me and one was when they're talking [TS]

  about new customer acquisition that the [TS]

  rate of switchers from Android to iPhone [TS]

  was up everywhere when you discounted [TS]

  China yeah which is a different story [TS]

  than they used to tell but that's a big [TS]

  that's a big but because part of what I [TS]

  wrote about today based on a very good [TS]

  column by friend of the show Ben [TS]

  Thompson with some market research [TS]

  there's two at least two two pieces of [TS]

  market research one from China and [TS]

  another from UBS analyst that was that [TS]

  came out last year show that in China [TS]

  there's a lot less a lot lower retention [TS]

  rate meaning when an i somebody who [TS]

  already owns an iphone goes to buy a new [TS]

  phone do they buy another iPhone or do [TS]

  they switch to another brand that's [TS]

  retention rate and its really pretty [TS]

  considered in the West it's pretty [TS]

  consistently in the mid to high 80s in [TS]

  the u.s. in the UK and Germany it's you [TS]

  know for two or three years now it's [TS]

  very consistently 8485 Germany's even a [TS]

  little higher 88 89 Japan is a little [TS]

  lower like mid 70s but pretty flat year [TS]

  to year but in China it went from like [TS]

  Western levels in the 80s like a couple [TS]

  years ago to around 50 percent now which [TS]

  is not good from Apple's perspective [TS]

  then I say very different [TS]

  than what they spoke about previously if [TS]

  you flash back a couple years when they [TS]

  were talking about the lack of low [TS]

  entry-level pricing on iPhones one of [TS]

  the things that Apple said is they [TS]

  didn't need to be your first phone if [TS]

  all you wanted was the cheapest phone if [TS]

  cheapness was your primary feature that [TS]

  was great but it wasn't a feature they [TS]

  were competing on and they would count [TS]

  on the fact that you would get into [TS]

  smart phones and then if you wanted a [TS]

  better phone experience you'd upgrade to [TS]

  an iPhone and a lot of people did that [TS]

  either for status or for iOS for iOS [TS]

  apps but that's not that's no longer the [TS]

  case in China there is still the status [TS]

  symbol implement but has been pointed [TS]

  out the the platform layer has shifted [TS]

  from base operating system to messaging [TS]

  yeah and especially it's particularly [TS]

  this app WeChat which is I think only in [TS]

  China I don't know or at least it's [TS]

  really only a sensation in China but [TS]

  it's you know truly staggering numbers [TS]

  for it's a four year old comfort or a [TS]

  four year old app from another company [TS]

  but it's I don't 900 million monthly [TS]

  active users something like that and I [TS]

  don't want to go too I'll put it linked [TS]

  I swear to god in the show notes at [TS]

  least in my article which has a link to [TS]

  the to the post from a woman named [TS]

  Connie Chen at the Anderson Horowitz [TS]

  explaining more or less for you know [TS]

  here what is WeChat and why you know why [TS]

  is it a sensation in China and long [TS]

  story short it's sort of like an OS and [TS]

  a in an app where it's a messaging app [TS]

  but you can do so much stuff you can pay [TS]

  free it's like you know like an Apple [TS]

  pay type competitor where you can go [TS]

  into a store and use WeChat to pay for [TS]

  the lunch while you're in line and you [TS]

  know like Ben has said that in China [TS]

  it's it makes you look like a rube if [TS]

  you pay with cash everybody else is [TS]

  paying with WeChat just all sorts of [TS]

  stuff you can buy stuff it's a shopping [TS]

  app it's you know that all sorts of [TS]

  companies that would like to be on the [TS]

  WeChat platform set up their own like [TS]

  authorized account it's like a special [TS]

  account status that opens up a bunch of [TS]

  ABA API so you can have a programmatic [TS]

  back-end so other WeChat users can when [TS]

  they're chatting with you know you know [TS]

  Rene and John incorporated we can sell [TS]

  them t-shirts or sneakers or whatever [TS]

  right [TS]

  that we chat up yeah [TS]

  and messaging is fragmented so it [TS]

  doesn't really you don't have to own [TS]

  messaging everywhere as long as you in [TS]

  the China market with WeChat you're fine [TS]

  the Japanese market with line it's [TS]

  almost like people who are such casual [TS]

  computer users that all they ever uses [TS]

  Facebook it makes no difference in them [TS]

  if they're on a Mac or a Windows PC or a [TS]

  library terminal or anything their [TS]

  entire computing experience is Facebook [TS]

  and it makes it easy to migrate right my [TS]

  argument and I've said this you know [TS]

  I've always thought this and I still [TS]

  believe it's always been true and always [TS]

  will be true is that in the in the basic [TS]

  apples model is selling nice hardware [TS]

  differentiated by proprietary software [TS]

  that's also nice but it's the software [TS]

  part is more important than the hardware [TS]

  part because that's what makes people [TS]

  sticky to the platform you know and so [TS]

  like a Mac user and I you know I've put [TS]

  this forth before I think you would [TS]

  agree with Allah I just love it as a [TS]

  thought experiment but would you rather [TS]

  use Apple's OS on competing hard on some [TS]

  other hardware ah or would you rather [TS]

  use some other hardware platform that's [TS]

  running right some other hardware [TS]

  platform running Apple's OS would you [TS]

  rather use Apple's hardware running the [TS]

  other OS so for example would you rather [TS]

  have like I would rather have a Google [TS]

  pixel that runs iOS hypothetically since [TS]

  that's not really possible instead of [TS]

  say an iPhone 7 that's running Android a [TS]

  totally and I think is easy to see [TS]

  because there are other companies that [TS]

  can manufacture beautiful hardware and [TS]

  there in fact the suppliers of a lot of [TS]

  Apple's components so we know they can [TS]

  make really good components but no one [TS]

  else has proven they can make really [TS]

  good software yet that's a much more [TS]

  rarer skill right and and with the iOS [TS]

  example it's a real hypothetical because [TS]

  I don't even think it's possible I [TS]

  really think that there there's [TS]

  technical aspects of like the you know [TS]

  the secure Enclave and stuff like that [TS]

  that would keep something from my [TS]

  message from working like in my [TS]

  hypothetical example I'd have everything [TS]

  you know my iMessage would work my [TS]

  iCloud ID would work on this pixel [TS]

  running iOS but I would rather have that [TS]

  even though I do in the abstract prefer [TS]

  an iPhone 7 over [TS]

  the Google pixel which is the the latest [TS]

  Android phone that I'm most familiar [TS]

  with and which I have to say is actually [TS]

  you know the nicest Android phone I've [TS]

  ever I ever saw it versus the other way [TS]

  around [TS]

  it would drive me not have to use [TS]

  Qualcomm scrappy processors instead of [TS]

  the a series but you can look at it yeah [TS]

  I could live with it it's you know it's [TS]

  fast enough [TS]

  you know III peg it you know if you look [TS]

  at the specs it's they're like somewhere [TS]

  on 18 months to 24 months behind [TS]

  I mean I'd still you know I would rather [TS]

  use a two year old iPhone 6 then use you [TS]

  know cutting-edge Android because the [TS]

  platform is most important to me it's [TS]

  just my mind is warped around it it's [TS]

  part of the way I think about how to do [TS]

  stuff on the phone and whenever I pose [TS]

  that question you know and I with [TS]

  computers it's actually is possible [TS]

  because you could create you can create [TS]

  a hackintosh that that works although [TS]

  there's still as things like iMessage [TS]

  still you know has problems and stuff [TS]

  like that because there's security you [TS]

  know it's not perfect hackintosh just [TS]

  don't work perfectly but they do work [TS]

  I'd rather have a hackintosh I gotta [TS]

  think pad running Mac OS 10 then [TS]

  anything Windows you name it Chrome or [TS]

  whatever whatever else a desktop PC [TS]

  operating system I could have running on [TS]

  a MacBook yeah absolutely the same but I [TS]

  have heard I know there are people that [TS]

  probably listening to the show right now [TS]

  I've heard from them whenever I bring [TS]

  this up because I do think it's an [TS]

  interesting hypothetical question um [TS]

  there are definitely people who I hear [TS]

  from who you know read read my stuff or [TS]

  listen to the show and say no I you know [TS]

  used Windows forever but switched to a [TS]

  MacBook just because of the hardware and [TS]

  in a lot of times I'll say like and you [TS]

  know not just the way it looks but I [TS]

  just got sick of the fact like I wanted [TS]

  a laptop that just when I opened it up [TS]

  it turns on when I close it it shuts its [TS]

  networks trackpad Works trackpad working [TS]

  is a huge thing and I know Joe and a [TS]

  stern friend of the show is often she's [TS]

  like the the absolute queen of trackpad [TS]

  judgements like she's got the ranking in [TS]

  her head of him every single trackpad [TS]

  quality in the whole market and I [TS]

  totally trust her judgment on trackpad [TS]

  quality that's a huge one but the people [TS]

  who say that they switched like that a [TS]

  lot of times say but that's the only [TS]

  reason and that they're you know for [TS]

  example very comments and [TS]

  my audience at least are like web [TS]

  developers whose entire life revolves [TS]

  around Chrome a text editor in a [TS]

  terminal window and any you know so [TS]

  somebody like that if that's your life [TS]

  if your life is just Google Chrome a [TS]

  text editor and a terminal you can [TS]

  easily switch to some other brand of [TS]

  laptop running another operating system [TS]

  you know because those things are [TS]

  available on every platform yeah [TS]

  absolutely same as a Facebook example [TS]

  it's just your entire environment is [TS]

  abstracted away from your computer right [TS]

  well that's why I think Facebook is such [TS]

  a not really a threat to Apple but like [TS]

  a direct threat but certainly looms [TS]

  large as and an indirect threat you know [TS]

  like somebody like it's far more of a [TS]

  threat Facebook is far more threatening [TS]

  to Apple then to me at least then say [TS]

  Samsung even though you would think [TS]

  Samsung would be the one who's the [TS]

  threat because they do the same thing [TS]

  they make $700 cell phones that when [TS]

  somebody goes into a store to decide [TS]

  what to buy they're only going to buy [TS]

  one whereas I feel like Apple has it [TS]

  it's successfully as in-app has always [TS]

  been or at least has been for 20 years [TS]

  in a position where the quality of their [TS]

  products are enough that they don't [TS]

  really have to worry about somebody else [TS]

  who also sells nice things because [TS]

  they've got the software platform to [TS]

  differentiate themselves the problem [TS]

  with something like facebook is that [TS]

  Facebook in a way is sort of like the [TS]

  WeChat of the West where you know if [TS]

  it's the most used app and it from a lot [TS]

  of people it is and it does all the same [TS]

  things in mostly the same ways on iOS [TS]

  and Android it's a lot easier for [TS]

  somebody to switch from an iPhone to [TS]

  Android if their most important app just [TS]

  works exactly the same way and lets them [TS]

  do all the same things and it's [TS]

  interesting because the web arguably [TS]

  helped Apple at a time when they were [TS]

  very far behind in terms of just market [TS]

  share and and mine share with PC but the [TS]

  web let them it compete you could just [TS]

  have a web browser and you would have [TS]

  access to all these things and it did [TS]

  ease the the transition back to Mac but [TS]

  it goes that door goes both [TS]

  and it can let people write you this [TS]

  quickly so let them in right it was it [TS]

  that sort of cross-platform parody that [TS]

  the web created was helpful to Apple [TS]

  when Apple was struggling but it's [TS]

  detrimental to Apple [TS]

  now that Apple's in a position of [TS]

  strength and it's interesting because [TS]

  there's different layers of abstraction [TS]

  where Facebook abstracts away a lot of [TS]

  the operating system and you're just [TS]

  interfacing because for a normal person [TS]

  the interface is the app and the [TS]

  interface is the hardware it's the face [TS]

  that they literally the face that they [TS]

  see and they work with and you can [TS]

  change all the plumbing behind it and [TS]

  they may not notice but if you change [TS]

  one button on an interface you'll get [TS]

  complaints or you know people will tell [TS]

  you about it and there's voicemail [TS]

  assistance to where you use Siri for [TS]

  example which totally disintermediate [TS]

  schoo --gel and all they see is query is [TS]

  coming from Apple and it's really regard [TS]

  Apple could switch the plumbing for that [TS]

  and then Alexa inter mediate things and [TS]

  it's almost like this battle for who can [TS]

  be the final point of the user interface [TS]

  and that's the experience that becomes [TS]

  sticky right and you know and Facebook [TS]

  is doing which had some other things you [TS]

  know with messenger and stuff where [TS]

  there's sort of apps within apps and [TS]

  it's sort of this sort of it's a sort of [TS]

  thing that Apple it's in its in its way [TS]

  has tried to discourage in the App Store [TS]

  all along right like they were never [TS]

  going to allow say it's part of the [TS]

  whole flash thing in the early years [TS]

  when that was contentious and when adobe [TS]

  first had a sort of flash to native iOS [TS]

  development chain and Apple like put the [TS]

  kibosh on it it was sort of you know [TS]

  what I'm sure they're it strategically [TS]

  there were multiple reasons but one of [TS]

  them was they were never going to allow [TS]

  something like an Adobe app that when [TS]

  you open the app gives you like a [TS]

  secondary homepage of flash based games [TS]

  that you can play right you can't have [TS]

  an app store within the App Store except [TS]

  that if you already have a certain [TS]

  momentum and size and importance like [TS]

  Facebook and like WeChat has in China [TS]

  you can kind of get away from it you [TS]

  know get away with it because Apple [TS]

  can't really afford they can't say we're [TS]

  not going to allow we chat on the iPhone [TS]

  in China and they can't say we're not [TS]

  going to allow Facebook on the iPhone [TS]

  yeah people just buy something else at [TS]

  that point [TS]

  right but so you know they even talk [TS]

  about apps like you know Facebook has [TS]

  things they call apps that you can have [TS]

  within messenger and like if you and I [TS]

  started a new chat app and came out with [TS]

  it and we said that there were apps you [TS]

  could have within the app it would not [TS]

  it would not make it through approval [TS]

  that in the iOS App Store our probably [TS]

  wouldn't um it's just something that [TS]

  some you know a company like Facebook [TS]

  that has that sort of what would you [TS]

  call it stature yeah well it also blurs [TS]

  the web services line because like Apple [TS]

  wouldn't blink with just like you go to [TS]

  google.com and there's your Gmail and [TS]

  your Google Calendar those are just [TS]

  normal web experiences and they've done [TS]

  that they but they've packaged those [TS]

  things up inside chat clients or inside [TS]

  social networks instead of having them [TS]

  as a bunch of standalone URLs and that [TS]

  gives a very different experience and [TS]

  pull you a lot more compelling [TS]

  experience right and you know one of the [TS]

  ways that Facebook is sort of [TS]

  threatening to Apple is in theory like I [TS]

  don't think this would happen I think [TS]

  it's you know so far it's actually more [TS]

  likely the other way around [TS]

  where something like you know Facebook's [TS]

  subsidiary Instagram was iOS only four [TS]

  years before it came out for for Android [TS]

  but if in theory Facebook somehow got [TS]

  better it was a better experience on [TS]

  Android than it is on the iPhone that's [TS]

  a threat to Apple if people's favorite [TS]

  app and most used app is Facebook and [TS]

  word spreads around that oh but you [TS]

  can't do the cool new x y&z that all [TS]

  your friends who have Android phones are [TS]

  doing on Facebook unless you get an [TS]

  Android phone like that's Facebook is so [TS]

  big and so popular that if something [TS]

  like that happened hypothetically that's [TS]

  a problem for Apple yeah I don't want to [TS]

  real it'll get the whole App Store thing [TS]

  but when you look at it if you look at [TS]

  the App Store you look at Google Play [TS]

  for example Google play's offers [TS]

  freedoms and features that a lot of App [TS]

  Store developers have been wanting for [TS]

  years but you can't really point to [TS]

  those two things on Google Play and say [TS]

  those are apps that aren't those are [TS]

  transformative apps that are simply not [TS]

  possible an iPhone you can get snapchat [TS]

  an iPhone you can get uber on iPhone but [TS]

  if there was ever a case where an app [TS]

  could only exist on Android because the [TS]

  policies or capabilities of Google Play [TS]

  and the Android ecosystem we're such to [TS]

  make it so that would I think be the [TS]

  only thing that could really change [TS]

  Apple's outlook on how all that thing on [TS]

  how iOS and the App Store works right if [TS]

  you really think about it [TS]

  it's apples uh they have control over [TS]

  the AppStore that the software vendors [TS]

  haven't had previously over their [TS]

  platforms right that they didn't have [TS]

  over the Mac because you could you know [TS]

  you can install any app you want on the [TS]

  Mac and so technically yes they could [TS]

  ban anything but practically speaking [TS]

  they don't really have they have lots of [TS]

  control but they don't really have total [TS]

  control like there's only so far that [TS]

  they can push Facebook on if Facebook is [TS]

  doing shady stuff behind the scenes like [TS]

  they have in the past like when I use [TS]

  the audio api Zoar right what yeah you [TS]

  know like they you know that was one of [TS]

  them like where where in the over the [TS]

  years when you look and say well why in [TS]

  the world is Facebook doing so much in [TS]

  the background and how are they doing it [TS]

  with there's rules of you know that apps [TS]

  get killed in the background and [TS]

  Facebook at one point one of the things [TS]

  they did it is they they were playing if [TS]

  there was an API so that an app that's [TS]

  playing audio can keep playing it in the [TS]

  background indefinitely and it won't get [TS]

  killed because if you let's say playing [TS]

  a podcast and you're not you're doing [TS]

  other things on your phone like you're [TS]

  going through email and browsing the web [TS]

  while you're listening to the podcast [TS]

  you don't want your podcast player to [TS]

  get killed by iOS because it's [TS]

  quote-unquote in the background because [TS]

  you're you're getting something from it [TS]

  it's playing audio so Facebook use that [TS]

  API to play completely silent audio [TS]

  track so that they could keep going in [TS]

  the background while they do other [TS]

  things like waiting for notifications [TS]

  and whatever else that are doing it is [TS]

  almost as egregious as when they had to [TS]

  hamburger buttons on both sides of the [TS]

  app all right I'd say that this was [TS]

  worse I do hamburger buttons don't run [TS]

  your battery down but it so in this [TS]

  problem still exists like I think was a [TS]

  month ago people started complaining [TS]

  about the same issue with Pokemon go and [TS]

  I started investigating and if you go it [TS]

  says we're like two or three hours on [TS]

  the background audio which is not [TS]

  something that any rat app besides a [TS]

  streaming client to ever present all [TS]

  right you should get jettisoned [TS]

  immediately right and so Facebook can [TS]

  get away with stuff like that in a way [TS]

  that other companies can't the other [TS]

  good example of that I mean I don't want [TS]

  to tie too many stories together it's [TS]

  but while we're on it is the [TS]

  a story that came out of a few weeks ago [TS]

  about uber yeah getting caught by Apple [TS]

  we could save that though maybe we [TS]

  should save that forever from the Zurich [TS]

  so anyway iPhone in China what else what [TS]

  else we have to say about that well I [TS]

  think just beyond China is that Tim Cook [TS]

  used the same sort of wording when he [TS]

  spoke about iPad and said that you know [TS]

  I large screen iPads were up sales of [TS]

  all our screen iPads were up when [TS]

  overall iPad sales were down again and [TS]

  that sort of was pointing the finger [TS]

  right at the iPad Mini yeah I think so [TS]

  that I think the reading between the [TS]

  lines on that that is a good that did [TS]

  strike me to reading between the lines [TS]

  on that and also looking at the revenue [TS]

  number yeah which wasn't really up [TS]

  either like like for example for the Mac [TS]

  sales unit sales were up 4% good [TS]

  year-over-year from the same three [TS]

  months last year but revenue is up 14% [TS]

  yeah so 4% units 14% revenue that tells [TS]

  me that the new MacBook Pros are selling [TS]

  pretty well yeah because that's the only [TS]

  thing that's new in the lineup and the [TS]

  ASP s are higher on those models and the [TS]

  ASP s are higher on those models and so [TS]

  you know that it's you know if you're if [TS]

  there's any concern out there that the [TS]

  sort of mixed reviews those MacBook Pros [TS]

  got it doesn't seem like it's had an [TS]

  adverse effect on sales seems like the [TS]

  opposite that they're actually proving [TS]

  to be pretty popular because they've [TS]

  driven the revenue per unit up but with [TS]

  the iPad with them saying and again you [TS]

  know it those those analyst calls are [TS]

  you know they can't lie on them or else [TS]

  they're committing securities fraud like [TS]

  they're very very careful I mean you [TS]

  know because you got you read the [TS]

  transcript and read every word I mean [TS]

  it's not loosey-goosey talk no and they [TS]

  are well prepared they have every fact [TS]

  in front of them before they get on that [TS]

  microphone right so if they say I mean [TS]

  again they don't they you know in the [TS]

  actual PDF data document for the [TS]

  quarterly numbers they they give you [TS]

  units per product line like just for [TS]

  iPad and their revenue for the product [TS]

  line and that's it and so the [TS]

  they don't break down in the old days [TS]

  like ten years ago they used to break [TS]

  down like for example Mac sales by [TS]

  desktop and notebook but they don't have [TS]

  any breakdown like that for iPads like [TS]

  between big and small but if they say on [TS]

  the call the big ones are up it but they [TS]

  must be up all right like it's either [TS]

  that or they're committing securities [TS]

  fraud but given that that everything was [TS]

  still down that must mean that iPad Mini [TS]

  sales have just dropped off the face of [TS]

  the earth which makes sense given the [TS]

  event of the larger phones and the lack [TS]

  of updates to the iPad Mini platform [TS]

  yeah I'd sort of a chicken and egg [TS]

  question for me is it are they not even [TS]

  updating the iPad Mini because people [TS]

  aren't buying the iPad Mini or people [TS]

  not buying the iPad Mini because they [TS]

  haven't updated the iPad Mini in a while [TS]

  this is this is a bit of a tangent but I [TS]

  went to a mutual friend of ours sort of [TS]

  potted us about Mac OS server the other [TS]

  day so I went to pick up a Mac Mini so [TS]

  that we can write a series of articles [TS]

  and I more about the benefits of Mac OS [TS]

  server and I went to the Apple store I [TS]

  bought it took it home and it was [TS]

  running L cap much I mean that to me [TS]

  shows is not a huge turnover rate on Mac [TS]

  minis we talked about how Mac Mini is a [TS]

  languishing product it's the same [TS]

  chicken and the egg problem but that [TS]

  sort of gave me an indicator about how [TS]

  few Mac minis might actually be moving [TS]

  it's pretty telling uh [TS]

  so trying ELQ be funny if it opened it [TS]

  up and it was running like tiger or [TS]

  something like oh that'd be great right [TS]

  sky lady old office telling us it's like [TS]

  how old is this uh PowerPC ABS uh trying [TS]

  to think anything else from the [TS]

  quarterly results services are way up [TS]

  which is as is predicted I mean they've [TS]

  been saying this for a while that hey [TS]

  we're you know we're hell-bent on [TS]

  services and it's showing in the results [TS]

  and it's repeatable revenue from the [TS]

  same customer base though it's sort of [TS]

  the revenue that Wall Street likes [TS]

  because you like we saw in China you [TS]

  can't guarantee someone's going to buy [TS]

  the next iPhone but are they're paying [TS]

  you subscription revenue you have a [TS]

  certain amount of period you can look [TS]

  forward to that revenue well and I think [TS]

  I think the other thing that and it ties [TS]

  into by arguing [TS]

  on the software being more important [TS]

  than the hardware in terms of not in any [TS]

  particular quarter but in the long run [TS]

  of having a loyal customer base that [TS]

  when they go to replace their blank [TS]

  whether it's their watch or whether it's [TS]

  their phone or whether it's their laptop [TS]

  if they've already got an Apple one [TS]

  they're going to buy another Apple one [TS]

  yeah and to have the services revenue is [TS]

  the sign that they're creating new ways [TS]

  that make more stickiness in that regard [TS]

  yeah I mean it's good in both directions [TS]

  too and I think they've even said this [TS]

  on the call is that you not in these [TS]

  terms though is that you can either [TS]

  double your amount of customers or you [TS]

  can double the amount of revenue you get [TS]

  from your customers and both of them [TS]

  result in substantial increases and as [TS]

  Apple starts to reach those those big [TS]

  numbers where it's really hard to start [TS]

  opening up new iPhone markets you've got [TS]

  Verizon you've got international [TS]

  carriers you've got China Mobile getting [TS]

  people on to higher revenue streams with [TS]

  things like subscription services just [TS]

  creates more value from each customer [TS]

  all right and I think it's important too [TS]

  because Apple is if Apple is Apple [TS]

  they're never going to they're never [TS]

  going to have market share like monopoly [TS]

  market share of these products because [TS]

  they're just they just does it's just [TS]

  not what Apple does is make products [TS]

  that are so low-priced [TS]

  as to you know take over the commodity [TS]

  level market I mean it just it wouldn't [TS]

  an Apple that tried to do that would no [TS]

  longer be recognizable as the Apple we [TS]

  know there's certain markets they just [TS]

  choose not to compete in right and you [TS]

  know it's you know whatever percentage [TS]

  of the PC market they have four five six [TS]

  10% whatever you want to call it you [TS]

  know their market of the phone you know [TS]

  is higher than significantly higher than [TS]

  that but it still is a minority and not [TS]

  even close to 50% it's you know even in [TS]

  the most popular iPhone countries it's [TS]

  you know 20% something like that is [TS]

  where we see the differential between [TS]

  the market share and their profit share [TS]

  right and you know being able to get [TS]

  more money out of the existing customers [TS]

  is a path to growth that is it lets them [TS]

  still be Apple there was one other thing [TS]

  that I thought was really interesting [TS]

  and that's when he was talking about [TS]

  Apple watch and they still won't give [TS]

  numbers they did the Amazon like thing [TS]

  where they said we had almost twice the [TS]

  amount of sales as last year so X was [TS]

  last year this was 2x but then Tim Cook [TS]

  said that if you take Apple watch [TS]

  you combine it with air pods and with [TS]

  beats although it wasn't specific which [TS]

  beats products just two w one or all of [TS]

  them that might be halogen 500 company [TS]

  yeah my guess is this there's a large [TS]

  amount of beats money in there it makes [TS]

  a fortune 500 company yeah yeah well [TS]

  let's take a break and we'll come back [TS]

  to that cuz I have some comments on them [TS]

  the watch but let me take a break and [TS]

  thank our first sponsor it's a good [TS]

  friend of ours you know [TS]

  Squarespace Squarespace is the place to [TS]

  go if you need to make a new website I [TS]

  say this all the time they sponsored the [TS]

  show for a long time I'm telling you [TS]

  right now next time you have an idea for [TS]

  a website any kind of website any [TS]

  project that needs a website a podcast a [TS]

  store try it at Squarespace first you [TS]

  will be if you haven't recently or never [TS]

  have you will be surprised at how easy [TS]

  and flexible Squarespace is to create a [TS]

  website how non totally non-technical [TS]

  you have to be you just do it right [TS]

  there in the website you see the website [TS]

  you pick from a template it looks like [TS]

  it you see it right there on your screen [TS]

  and then if you want to move elements [TS]

  around you just drag them around if you [TS]

  are technically savvy enough to want to [TS]

  put your own JavaScript in or do some [TS]

  modify the CSS or something like that [TS]

  you can do it you would be surprised [TS]

  here's the other thing too because part [TS]

  of the easiness of using Squarespace is [TS]

  this ability to pick templates and they [TS]

  have so many of them from different [TS]

  types of sites and have a [TS]

  professional-looking website but I hear [TS]

  that if I hear that if I'm listening to [TS]

  this show and I hear that my thought [TS]

  turns to well I don't want to have a [TS]

  cookie cutter site that looks like [TS]

  everybody else's like say back in the [TS]

  day when you'd get like a blogspot blog [TS]

  and you'd know it was a blogspot blog [TS]

  because they were like two or three [TS]

  templates to choose from and everybody [TS]

  had one of those Squarespace has so many [TS]

  templates to choose from and the [TS]

  templates they have you can modify them [TS]

  so easily to customize them to your own [TS]

  brand that you don't even know when [TS]

  you're on a Squarespace site it's [TS]

  unbelievable to me how many sites when [TS]

  you start poking around and looking in [TS]

  the source code and you see that it's [TS]

  Squarespace site you're like wow I never [TS]

  would have guessed that because it looks [TS]

  so uniquely branded to this restaurant [TS]

  or a clothing company or whatever it is [TS]

  you're trying to make so next time you [TS]

  make a website build it with Squarespace [TS]

  and use the code Gruber my last name and [TS]

  when you pay you will save 10% off your [TS]

  first order remember that next time you [TS]

  need to make a website so I I sometimes [TS]

  I worry that I repeat myself too often [TS]

  Renae that I've got like three or four [TS]

  columns and I just can't keep writing [TS]

  them all over and over again but the one [TS]

  I just wrote a couple weeks ago was some [TS]

  I forget the guys name but somebody [TS]

  wrote a column that the Apple watch [TS]

  hasn't changed Apple it hasn't done [TS]

  anything for Apple at all and I think if [TS]

  you read between the lines of his [TS]

  argument it's that it is more or less [TS]

  that it the I Apple watch is nowhere [TS]

  near I phone size product and probably [TS]

  never will be and therefore it's it's [TS]

  meaningless to Apple or close to [TS]

  meaningless and I just think that's such [TS]

  a wrong way to look at it it's like [TS]

  there's there really might there might [TS]

  never be another iPhone size product in [TS]

  any industry let alone Apple like Apple [TS]

  may not ever have an iPhone size hit it [TS]

  may well be that no other company has an [TS]

  iPhone size hit in terms of just how [TS]

  much money and how many people around [TS]

  the world the market size is and so I [TS]

  ain't judged by that nothing Apple ever [TS]

  does will succeed by that merit and I [TS]

  think if Apple internally took that [TS]

  mindset it would paralyze the company [TS]

  yeah yeah I mean i phone creates more [TS]

  profit than companies that have [TS]

  oligopoly control over scarce fossil [TS]

  fuel resources and people forget that [TS]

  perspective and they create this false [TS]

  equivalency where everything for Apple [TS]

  has to be measured by the success of [TS]

  iPhone and then everything is seemed to [TS]

  be lacking where for other companies you [TS]

  could sell three surface books and it's [TS]

  a rousing success you get 19 articles [TS]

  out of that when we saw that I think I [TS]

  forget if it was Neil Seibert or Ben [TS]

  Benedict Evans who tweeted that based on [TS]

  their metrics Apple watch vastly outsold [TS]

  by it was a factor of two or three [TS]

  Amazon's Alexa echo product and yet [TS]

  people were telling how great and [TS]

  transformative echo was and what a [TS]

  dismal failure Apple watch was and it [TS]

  was [TS]

  lutely out of whack with anything [TS]

  assembling any resemblance to facts [TS]

  right it's it's graded on such a bizarre [TS]

  curve and it's a perfect example because [TS]

  Alexa like every other Amazon product [TS]

  the echo doesn't get numbers reported [TS]

  and Apple watch gets a Bezos curve of [TS]

  twice as much as ever [TS]

  yeah this games really important [TS]

  technology you can kind of at least with [TS]

  Apple watch it's in that other category [TS]

  and you can there is a revenue number [TS]

  for the you know the it's like the [TS]

  headphones and beats and Apple TV and [TS]

  Apple watch yeah [TS]

  and given a Apple TV is almost certainly [TS]

  pretty static that Gator hasn't been an [TS]

  update there hasn't been a big [TS]

  promotional push there hasn't been a big [TS]

  change you know since the fall 2015 when [TS]

  the current Apple Apple TV came out so [TS]

  you know I it's pretty reasonable to [TS]

  assume Apple TV is flat at best earpods [TS]

  is a little hard to gauge for this [TS]

  quarter because they're obviously [TS]

  popular enough that they're backordered [TS]

  but there's something strange yeah it's [TS]

  hard to connect just how constrained [TS]

  they are and I think you pointed out [TS]

  that they're not sold at a huge margin [TS]

  there right sold as cheaply as possible [TS]

  well the revenue number though might be [TS]

  big because they don't you know they're [TS]

  not going to break that down by profit [TS]

  but I have reason to believe that [TS]

  they're theirs they're not a big [TS]

  moneymaker at this point and it makes [TS]

  sense that obviously it must be hard to [TS]

  make because the you know that's four [TS]

  months in and there's still six weeks [TS]

  out if you go to order them as an aside [TS]

  on that for anybody looking to buy our [TS]

  pods I've every wrote about that on [TS]

  during fireball a couple times recently [TS]

  and a couple people have written to me [TS]

  and said that they scored earpods [TS]

  it on the fly recently from like 18 t [TS]

  stores they're like Verizon stores that [TS]

  there's they're they're showing up if [TS]

  you're you know if you really want them [TS]

  and you don't want to wait six weeks [TS]

  try-try stores like AT&T and Best Buy [TS]

  and stuff like that and you might just [TS]

  get lucky and get them before you would [TS]

  if you place an order at Apple comm so [TS]

  that's my my tip for anybody out there [TS]

  looking for airport [TS]

  but you know I I think it but the [TS]

  numbers from those that Apple reported [TS]

  another backup you know the idea that [TS]

  Apple watch is selling pretty well and [TS]

  personally I mean this is obviously very [TS]

  unscientific but personally I see more I [TS]

  see more and more Apple watches on real [TS]

  people out in the streets than ever [TS]

  before I see a lot an awful lot of them [TS]

  I went to the deli the other day just to [TS]

  order a Montreal smoked meat sandwich [TS]

  and the waiter was wearing an Apple [TS]

  watch and I asked him highlight and he [TS]

  said best thing in the world well I'll [TS]

  have our phones with us when we work but [TS]

  I can still check my text messages on my [TS]

  Apple watch now there's a big [TS]

  construction project across the street [TS]

  from from my house and I just I noticed [TS]

  the other day that the guy who controls [TS]

  the crane is wearing an Apple watch and [TS]

  I thought that you know it might be the [TS]

  same that that might be the exact reason [TS]

  for that is you know that he you know [TS]

  while he's doing this he can't have his [TS]

  phone out but he if he glances at his [TS]

  wrist he can see you know text [TS]

  notifications I don't know but just [TS]

  seems you know I see him all the time I [TS]

  see a lawful autumn it backs up daily [TS]

  and again not like it's as popular as [TS]

  the iPhone but nothing is really [TS]

  literally but I sure see him a lot I [TS]

  really do it does a subset of important [TS]

  brief tasks for you in a way that saves [TS]

  you having to go to your iPhone the same [TS]

  way your iPhone does a subset a really [TS]

  important task that stays you having to [TS]

  go to your Mac yeah but why is that [TS]

  important those are to you while we're [TS]

  talking about Apple watch we can tie in [TS]

  the other what story from this week [TS]

  where Apple Insider discovered that a [TS]

  couple of big-name apps iPhone apps have [TS]

  dropped their Apple watch counterparts [TS]

  was it Amazon eBay and yet the one up to [TS]

  me was most telling was Google Maps yeah [TS]

  I have to admit when I first heard this [TS]

  story my guess and I checked into it but [TS]

  I couldn't get an answer was that it [TS]

  happened at the same time they launched [TS]

  their iMessage app I just thought they [TS]

  screwed up something in their bundle and [TS]

  enabled the iMessage app and disabled [TS]

  the Apple watch app by accident and I [TS]

  don't know if that's true or they're [TS]

  going to be updating it for our watch OS [TS]

  four or whatever but their state their [TS]

  subsequent statement made it sound like [TS]

  it was it was returning it was not a [TS]

  deliberate removal well the but the [TS]

  telling part is that it it seemingly [TS]

  happened weeks ago and nobody really [TS]

  noticed a smartie noticed right away and [TS]

  she's like what's happening here and [TS]

  started looking into it but you [TS]

  wasn't huge story now I just think [TS]

  though I really do I think and I think [TS]

  it's you know I think the emphasis that [TS]

  Apple I think Apple is fully aware of [TS]

  this based on what they worked on for [TS]

  iOS 3 and what how they build it that [TS]

  even with the iPhone it was true that [TS]

  they'd you know they certainly obviously [TS]

  at the outset didn't see how much a how [TS]

  big a deal it would be there be an app [TS]

  platform they might have had the inkling [TS]

  but it certainly you know and I think [TS]

  it's played out in ways that that even [TS]

  they couldn't foresee I don't think [TS]

  Apple would have predicted in 2007 that [TS]

  the iPhone would become the most [TS]

  important and popular camera in the [TS]

  world it you know it's you don't know [TS]

  you know and I feel like they rolled out [TS]

  the Apple watch and obviously I think [TS]

  initially thought that apps were going [TS]

  to be a bigger part of what might make [TS]

  it popular and in real use in even their [TS]

  own use like not just surveying users [TS]

  but I think you know Apple people using [TS]

  the watch themselves that the health [TS]

  tracking and the using it as a [TS]

  notifications input and output device [TS]

  are far more important than the app [TS]

  story I think that's absolutely true [TS]

  it's almost like they over compensated [TS]

  for the lack of an app store at launch [TS]

  for iPhone by making sure no matter what [TS]

  happens or how poorly it performed they [TS]

  had one available for Apple watch and [TS]

  almost the the heartbreaking part about [TS]

  that is if they launched it at the same [TS]

  time that extensibility was launched and [TS]

  extensibility was one of the [TS]

  technologies that allowed them to have [TS]

  apps on the Apple watch but they at the [TS]

  same time that like a you've written [TS]

  this really well like what HTTP what web [TS]

  services were to websites where they [TS]

  basically didn't need a website anymore [TS]

  you could just provide an API extensions [TS]

  were like that to apps you didn't [TS]

  necessarily need a binary blob on the [TS]

  same device you could have features and [TS]

  functionality that could be on the same [TS]

  device but what could be projected or [TS]

  surfaced in many different places in [TS]

  many different ways and they had that [TS]

  with Apple watch but instead they sort [TS]

  of took this mentality of binary blobs [TS]

  where you had to have an app on a [TS]

  carousel screen that you could tap with [TS]

  your finger to launch and we've seen [TS]

  them move away from that but I think in [TS]

  hindsight we're going to see that the [TS]

  app the watch has to be a [TS]

  function uh so a feature device and not [TS]

  an app device yeah and I think you know [TS]

  it and it I played around I don't want [TS]

  to he's a friend and I appreciate the [TS]

  feature but Marco Arment has worked on a [TS]

  much improved watch app for overcast and [TS]

  I know that he spent an awful lot of [TS]

  time in the last few months on it and it [TS]

  shipped recently and then over the [TS]

  weekend I thought well I was I was was [TS]

  gonna go for a run and I thought yeah I [TS]

  in theory I would love to go with just [TS]

  my watch and air pods um and not have to [TS]

  figure out a way to carry my phone [TS]

  because there's just no great way I've [TS]

  got some kind of like belt like thing [TS]

  that I put underneath my shirt where I [TS]

  can strap it in [TS]

  but I'd you know I don't want to run [TS]

  with it in my pockets I don't like using [TS]

  an armband there's no good way to go [TS]

  with a phone um so I thought well I'm [TS]

  participer fect head I'm not just trying [TS]

  this watch app of overcast out I'm you [TS]

  know I actually actually want this [TS]

  feature I would love to do this and it [TS]

  was absolutely horrible it's just [TS]

  terrible it was hard to get it was hard [TS]

  to get it installed on the watch in the [TS]

  first place which shouldn't be the case [TS]

  it was like that from the watch app on [TS]

  the phone it said installing and it just [TS]

  said installing dot dot forever and then [TS]

  once it was installed getting an audio [TS]

  it's like getting audio from the phone [TS]

  to the watch takes forever and even once [TS]

  it did and I got a I got a podcast over [TS]

  there to listen to and I went to play I [TS]

  got my air pod sync to it the audio was [TS]

  like whisper quiet and and I'd you know [TS]

  I mentioned this to Marco and it's [TS]

  obviously not always the case and other [TS]

  people are saying it happens sometimes [TS]

  but he has no idea why uh it just and it [TS]

  was I wasted like 45 minutes and I was [TS]

  just like you know what screw it I'm [TS]

  just going with my phone like I always [TS]

  do it was so much better I mean it's [TS]

  just it's just too finicky it's way too [TS]

  finicky whereas there are other things [TS]

  like do you ever use this app you ever [TS]

  use the service nuzzle and use these egl [TS]

  I've seen it yeah I've used it on the [TS]

  iPhone it's really great it's it's a [TS]

  service you sign in with your Twitter [TS]

  account and what it does is [TS]

  it's really really great if anybody out [TS]

  there wants to try it I find a tons of [TS]

  stuff that I link to wondering fireball [TS]

  from it but what it does is it follows [TS]

  your own the people you follow on [TS]

  Twitter and when a certain threshold of [TS]

  the people you follow have all tweeted [TS]

  the same link or a link to the same [TS]

  article it gives you a notification [TS]

  about it on the assumption that if like [TS]

  five people you follow have all tweeted [TS]

  the same link to blank you want to know [TS]

  about blank and it gives you a [TS]

  notification for that and when I first [TS]

  heard about it I thought that this is [TS]

  going to be something that I'm going to [TS]

  try and quickly get rid of because I'm [TS]

  sort of sensitive to getting to I don't [TS]

  want too many notifications from [TS]

  anything I find out whatever algorithm [TS]

  nuzzle uses to do this I mean maybe it's [TS]

  super simple maybe it's just I don't [TS]

  know you know just but just the idea [TS]

  that if five of the people I follow on [TS]

  Twitter link the same thing I want to [TS]

  know about it [TS]

  the ratio of interesting links to the [TS]

  times they notify me is so high that I [TS]

  have no interest in turning it off but [TS]

  they don't even have a watch app but the [TS]

  notifications go to my watch just [TS]

  automatically like you don't you know [TS]

  like the the only thing I would want [TS]

  from them on my watch they don't even [TS]

  need a watch out for because the [TS]

  notifications if my phone is in my [TS]

  pocket automatically go to my watch it's [TS]

  I remember so Ellis was saying that when [TS]

  I forget when right watch was introduced [TS]

  that he and his opinion developer should [TS]

  spend more time making a really awesome [TS]

  notification experience and not worry [TS]

  about an app at all and I got that turns [TS]

  out to be candy advice right so like [TS]

  nuzzle doesn't even have a watch app and [TS]

  to me the watch app that they are that I [TS]

  get is exactly what I want yeah and if [TS]

  poor Marcos spent months working on an [TS]

  advanced watch app that maybe someday [TS]

  will turn into something that's actually [TS]

  good and useful on like a future version [TS]

  of the wot deck that maybe the [TS]

  foundation will be there so that when a [TS]

  watch actually gets its own LTE or [TS]

  something like that it actually will be [TS]

  useful but he spent all this time on it [TS]

  and it's I I don't want to use it at all [TS]

  even though I use overcast almost every [TS]

  day yeah I've tried it I like it it has [TS]

  the issues that you mentioned and I [TS]

  always have my iPhone with me even if [TS]

  I'm out so I haven't had the I haven't [TS]

  been forced to use it but it's it's a [TS]

  problem that people want solved but it [TS]

  is not something that's technically [TS]

  solvable right now all right like in all [TS]

  honesty i if overcast didn't have a [TS]

  watch app it wouldn't matter to me at [TS]

  all because the only thing I ever [TS]

  do I can do through the now plane anyway [TS]

  yeah so I don't know it's I feel like [TS]

  there's something that Apple I think [TS]

  they're well aware of it that's what I [TS]

  think and I think we'll see more I think [TS]

  you'll see it go that way yeah I think [TS]

  it's a classic example of the you know [TS]

  they saw everything is a nail they had [TS]

  an app store hammer and then everything [TS]

  looked like an app nail to them and in [TS]

  hindsight you can look back and say we [TS]

  needed a different approach for this [TS]

  yeah I think they recognize they have [TS]

  known that for over a year and a half [TS]

  which is why we saw watch it was three [TS]

  and we'll see watch it was four be [TS]

  different yeah yeah be interesting to [TS]

  see what they do with that [TS]

  anything else on quarterly results [TS]

  before we move on no I mean I saw at the [TS]

  same time he was a Tim Cook was on Jim [TS]

  Cramer and said they don't have a watch [TS]

  to lose thirty pounds right which I [TS]

  don't know where that was from like and [TS]

  again and Tim Cook does not strike me as [TS]

  a bullshitter right now like he is I if [TS]

  he says he lost thirty pounds I think he [TS]

  probably lost thirty pounds but I mean [TS]

  I've seen him on stage every six months [TS]

  for five six years and there was never [TS]

  any point where it looked like he put on [TS]

  you know or put on our lost thirty [TS]

  pounds yeah I mean that's but anyway my [TS]

  power to him it just it was amazing um [TS]

  what did they Annette it was a pretty [TS]

  good interview I mean for you you know a [TS]

  you know I give Jim Cramer credit for a [TS]

  guy who's not really an Apple person but [TS]

  rather a finance person I thought it was [TS]

  a pretty informative interview I think [TS]

  that this announcement of a billion 1 [TS]

  billion dollar fund to promote advanced [TS]

  manufacturing jobs in the u.s. is pretty [TS]

  interesting that's that's wood cooking [TS]

  out the details aren't out yet I think [TS]

  he said to come in at the end of May um [TS]

  I think so it was it was entirely I mean [TS]

  it was super interesting we start to [TS]

  decompose interest the relationship that [TS]

  Apple has with the administration who is [TS]

  heavily pro US jobs and US manufacturing [TS]

  all these elements where Apple has a [TS]

  massive manufacturing capacity outside [TS]

  the US but also a massive amount of [TS]

  money which we heard about the call as [TS]

  well they want to repatriate and the [TS]

  last time that happened was under the [TS]

  Bush administration [TS]

  this administration might be more [TS]

  amenable so I think it's a very careful [TS]

  balancing act right and it's a yeah we [TS]

  cuz it one thing that has happened in [TS]

  recent years is apples had this large [TS]

  cash hoard for a long time now although [TS]

  the definition of large keeps keeps [TS]

  growing letting up the waistband but it [TS]

  has changed even though they've sort of [TS]

  capped it off now we're like it's not [TS]

  really growing so much in rather however [TS]

  much it would be growing they just keep [TS]

  giving to the the shareholder whatever [TS]

  they call it it's growing despite the [TS]

  biggest give back and one of the biggest [TS]

  give backs of corporate history right [TS]

  but one shift that has happened though [TS]

  is that their us Holdings have shrunk [TS]

  and it's almost entirely overseas what [TS]

  they have now is almost entirely [TS]

  overseas and so for like this billion [TS]

  dollar fund in in the u.s. they're going [TS]

  to borrow to get the money rather than [TS]

  use it because they don't really have a [TS]

  bill you know they have a billion but [TS]

  it's it's it I don't have it on me right [TS]

  to my to my wallet over in Ireland now [TS]

  very true but it'll be interesting to [TS]

  see you know what comes to that and it's [TS]

  you know it I don't think Apple is a and [TS]

  they've been thinking about this for a [TS]

  while I mean it and and you know with [TS]

  the Mac Pro that was 2013 where they [TS]

  announced that it would be assembled in [TS]

  the US I mean so it's not like they [TS]

  haven't like like all of a sudden just [TS]

  with Trump in office they're now looking [TS]

  to toe the line on bringing [TS]

  manufacturing jobs back to the US but I [TS]

  I don't think and I think if there's a [TS]

  trumpian aspect to it I don't think it's [TS]

  so much about toeing the line or wanting [TS]

  to please the Trump administration but [TS]

  more a a pragmatic let's make sure we [TS]

  don't get caught flat-footed if they [TS]

  start a trade war with China or do [TS]

  something impose some other you know [TS]

  tariffs or something like that like [TS]

  let's let's be ready for anything that [TS]

  might happen now that the [TS]

  somebody with his temperament and his [TS]

  his stated policies toward you know [TS]

  overseas manufacturing jobs is in office [TS]

  it's almost like pre-emptive positioning [TS]

  when they bought you know stake in DD in [TS]

  China you know because those there's [TS]

  certain volatility and that leadership [TS]

  as well and it's true I think that was [TS]

  back when they were doing the I factory [TS]

  Series in New York Times and and that [TS]

  was a big story and Apple you know [TS]

  making Mac's MacBook Pro sorry Mac Pro's [TS]

  in the US was a very good story for that [TS]

  2lbs you can see where this goes yeah it [TS]

  will be an you know again you can say [TS]

  like I saw it on CNBC after after the [TS]

  Kramer thing had aired where somebody [TS]

  was like you know given apples it you [TS]

  know two hundred and fifty billion [TS]

  dollar cash holdings and the you know [TS]

  their quarterly revenue you know it's [TS]

  easy to say a billion dollars isn't that [TS]

  much to Apple but still a billion [TS]

  dollars is a billion dollars and saying [TS]

  you're going to commit a billion dollars [TS]

  to assembling you know to advanced [TS]

  assembly and manufacturing jobs in the [TS]

  US is significant yeah I don't have $250 [TS]

  you got to give $1 away still dollar you [TS]

  got to give away right and it's you know [TS]

  a billion there's a little different [TS]

  than one dollar and it's any problem is [TS]

  easy to solve provided you're not the [TS]

  one in charge of solving it that's what [TS]

  the media keeps forgetting I think let [TS]

  me take another break here and thank our [TS]

  next sponsor it's our good friends at [TS]

  Casper you guys know Casper [TS]

  they make obsessively engineered [TS]

  mattress at a shockingly fair price we [TS]

  just bought a new Casper mattress here [TS]

  at the Gruber family home our son needed [TS]

  a new bed got him a Casper he loves it [TS]

  absolutely loves it he literally honest [TS]

  to god he was mad at me that I didn't [TS]

  get him one sooner it was that we were [TS]

  that happy with it he's that happy with [TS]

  it it's a great mattress so here's the [TS]

  deal there's my favorite thing about [TS]

  them they don't make you choose a type [TS]

  of mattress when you need a mattress you [TS]

  go there you pick a size and that's all [TS]

  and then it comes to you and you open it [TS]

  up and you've got a mattress how do you [TS]

  ship a mattress to somebody guess what [TS]

  it's the the fact that they make it out [TS]

  of like this [TS]

  their own custom blend of like foams it [TS]

  comes in a little box little box meaning [TS]

  like it might be the biggest package [TS]

  that you're going to get this year [TS]

  delivered to your house but for a [TS]

  mattress it's a surprisingly small box [TS]

  and then they have nice instructions on [TS]

  the outside they tell you to bring it up [TS]

  to the room where you want it first [TS]

  don't open it don't open it up [TS]

  downstairs go to the bedroom follow [TS]

  their instructions you open it up it [TS]

  sucks all the air out of the room to [TS]

  fill the mattress so be careful be [TS]

  careful make sure you you know take a [TS]

  deep breath before you open it up and [TS]

  there you go you got a mattress and it's [TS]

  comfortable and it's nice it's just a [TS]

  nice mattress and the price is because [TS]

  they sell directly they make them right [TS]

  here in the US by the way they make them [TS]

  here in the US they sell them to you [TS]

  directly there's no middleman there's no [TS]

  markup for a retail store or anything [TS]

  like that their prices blow away the [TS]

  prices for premium mattresses from the [TS]

  big-name mattress companies there's just [TS]

  no comparison where do you go get yours [TS]

  today you try it for a hundred nights in [TS]

  your own home with free delivery [TS]

  so you don't take my word for it that's [TS]

  comfortable go buy one have it delivered [TS]

  try it out you've got over three months [TS]

  100 nights and if you're not happy with [TS]

  it no questions asked they will just [TS]

  arrange for someone to come and get it [TS]

  out of your house no questions asked go [TS]

  to Casper comm slash the talk show and [TS]

  use that code the talk show and you will [TS]

  save 50 bucks towards any mattress put [TS]

  an asterisk right here [TS]

  you can't save 50 bucks on their dog [TS]

  mattresses I'm sorry because the dog [TS]

  mattress is only like a couple hundred [TS]

  bucks but if you have a dog and you want [TS]

  to get your dog a bed get them a Casper [TS]

  they have an amazing amazing dog [TS]

  mattress and I keep mentioning it and [TS]

  readers keep saying that they bought it [TS]

  for their dog and their dog won't get up [TS]

  off the mattress so there you go my [TS]

  thanks to Caspar makers of fine [TS]

  mattresses what else happened recently [TS]

  that gets this week at Microsoft had [TS]

  their education event and they unveiled [TS]

  two things they unveiled on the hardware [TS]

  size outside their own this is their [TS]

  first true laptop something that's now I [TS]

  get detachable tablet type thing that [TS]

  they call the surface laptop [TS]

  and they unveiled an new operating [TS]

  system called Windows 10 ass which do [TS]

  you want to talk about first I was going [TS]

  to say Joe Belfiore is new blonde hair [TS]

  cut Wow he famously windows phone Joe [TS]

  Belfiore who went away for a year and [TS]

  decided to focus on education then came [TS]

  back and is now leading this initiative [TS]

  I didn't see that part of the show yeah [TS]

  he was I don't think they put him on [TS]

  stage which is involved that's why I hit [TS]

  my person on stage yeah he was out front [TS]

  beforehand I think maybe the hardware [TS]

  first because we use their know we had [TS]

  Daniel Rubino when my colleagues was [TS]

  there Wow I watched the video but I [TS]

  really only watched the video for the [TS]

  10s part I didn't watch the hardware [TS]

  part so what do you want talk about [TS]

  first the hardware all right let's talk [TS]

  about the hardware it's so interesting [TS]

  and I'm gonna start off with this [TS]

  because why not it's the talk show if [TS]

  this if this laptop had an Apple logo on [TS]

  it I think the coverage would have been [TS]

  very different [TS]

  well we saw how so because this was like [TS]

  there was a lot of things about this [TS]

  laptop that were very Apple as like the [TS]

  design looks almost identical to a [TS]

  MacBook Air the price was almost [TS]

  identical to a MacBook Air you know a [TS]

  lot of the of the video and the language [TS]

  that you used for it was very similar to [TS]

  Apple it's got one port on it USB a port [TS]

  instead of a USB C port but just one [TS]

  port on it and it does have the surface [TS]

  dock you know so you can do other things [TS]

  with it but I think a lot of people who [TS]

  were highly critical of Apple for doing [TS]

  things like a single port MacBook or any [TS]

  of a dozen decisions they made recently [TS]

  were strangely silent when it came to [TS]

  Microsoft making very similar moves with [TS]

  his laptop yeah one port its USB a which [TS]

  seems outdated and then they have a [TS]

  proprietary display port right yeah and [TS]

  a surface dock that to me that the [TS]

  proprietary display port seems like the [TS]

  weird the part that like whoa if Apple [TS]

  did that that would be that that would [TS]

  seem generate a lot of criticism I don't [TS]

  get your you are true I wasn't even [TS]

  going to bring that aspect up but [TS]

  there's it how can Apple release a [TS]

  laptop with one port and get like at a [TS]

  month of criticism or years of criticism [TS]

  people still complain about the MacBook [TS]

  you know people call it the MacBook one [TS]

  and then [TS]

  Microsoft releases one with one port it [TS]

  happens to be outdated the only other [TS]

  port is a proprietary one which is an [TS]

  Apple move and it gets headlines like [TS]

  here's the laptop the apples apples or [TS]

  Microsoft's macbook killer that Apple [TS]

  can't ignore and it gets it gets funnier [TS]

  after that because it is running KB Lake [TS]

  which is a generation beyond what Apple [TS]

  ran and there's reasons for that the [TS]

  quad core version of Kaiba Lake wasn't [TS]

  ready when Apple needed at the graphics [TS]

  that Apple one of the more powerful [TS]

  graphics were not available when Apple [TS]

  wanted to put them into the MacBook Pro [TS]

  and this in fact doesn't have those [TS]

  sorts of graphics options so a Microsoft [TS]

  made a different choice they went with a [TS]

  better CPU but arguably a much worse GPU [TS]

  but at the same time there's 8 gigabytes [TS]

  and 16 gigabytes of RAM but the 16 [TS]

  gigabyte version doesn't ship for months [TS]

  and can you imagine if Apple announced [TS]

  the new MacBook Pros we went to in [TS]

  October and said oh by the way 16 [TS]

  gigabyte versions lock in a chip for a [TS]

  few months and I also think I went [TS]

  through the configuration on it because [TS]

  there was also some initial Twitter [TS]

  feedback that I saw where it was that [TS]

  that it shows how overpriced the MacBook [TS]

  Pros are and I found the exact opposite [TS]

  where I configured one with core i7 16 [TS]

  gigs of ram and a 512 megabyte SSD and [TS]

  the price was 21 99 and a MacBook with [TS]

  core i7 and 16 gigs of ram and a 512 [TS]

  gigabyte SSD was $21.99 the exact same [TS]

  price [TS]

  $21.99 for Flex John and Apple offers a [TS]

  one terabyte SSD Microsoft doesn't and [TS]

  Apple will let you get a 16 gigabytes of [TS]

  RAM configuration in the core i5 variant [TS]

  of the MacBook Pro and Microsoft doesn't [TS]

  if you want to get 16 gigs of ram you've [TS]

  gotta also upgrade to the core i7 and on [TS]

  personally me personally I've actually [TS]

  totally changed my my personal take on [TS]

  but laptops were for me I think the the [TS]

  I'm a podcasting from it right now I [TS]

  have a 2015 or is it 2014 cheese I don't [TS]

  even remember [TS]

  MacBook Pro 13 inch MacBook Pro let's [TS]

  see what they say I don't remember it so [TS]

  I might take four years Oh mid 2014 [TS]

  so yeah it's a late 2014 MacBook Pro 13 [TS]

  inch one of the best computers I've ever [TS]

  owned I maxed out everything when I [TS]

  bought it I got like three gigahertz [TS]

  Intel Core i7 I got the 16 gigs of ram [TS]

  which is the most I could get and I got [TS]

  the one terabyte SSD and I'm happy with [TS]

  all those decisions because I've got a [TS]

  couple hundred gigabytes left but way [TS]

  more than 512 I'm like 700 or something [TS]

  like that so I need the one terabyte was [TS]

  useful to me I would lie as the biggest [TS]

  thing I need because I'm lazy and I [TS]

  always keep lots of Safari tabs open and [TS]

  slack take slack itself even if you run [TS]

  it as an app takes like a gigabyte of [TS]

  RAM yeah I don't think I need a core i7 [TS]

  I think and I thought this I when I was [TS]

  testing I had a couple of the review [TS]

  units of the the new MacBook Pros from [TS]

  from October there's nothing I do a [TS]

  daily day-to-day basis where having a [TS]

  core i7 instead of a core i5 really [TS]

  makes a difference I don't use Xcode or [TS]

  if I do I do it rarely enough that the [TS]

  difference in build times I'm not doing [TS]

  it all day all day long we're shaving [TS]

  some time off the the building run cycle [TS]

  would really make a difference other [TS]

  things I do that might be like batch [TS]

  processing it doesn't matter to me [TS]

  because it's running in the background [TS]

  you know it the difference between core [TS]

  i5 and core i7 performance wise isn't [TS]

  meaningful to me personally and the core [TS]

  i5 is going to get better battery life [TS]

  and that actually is that's more [TS]

  important to me so I think the next time [TS]

  I get a MacBook Pro I'd get a core i5 [TS]

  that would get better battery life and [TS]

  it's way more than fast enough and then [TS]

  just max out the SSD in the RAM and [TS]

  Microsoft won't let you do that and I [TS]

  find that to be a very useful [TS]

  configuration I have the exact same [TS]

  MacBook Pro that you have from before [TS]

  the exact same configuration and I came [TS]

  to the exact same conclusion about this [TS]

  one and in fact I can't mention any [TS]

  names but someone who knows those [TS]

  chipsets inside it out just told me [TS]

  point blank don't give Intel the f [TS]

  your money I I really I I believe that I [TS]

  really do and it's not so much that [TS]

  there's anything wrong with the core i7 [TS]

  but that the core i5 is just good enough [TS]

  and I really do on that curve and I [TS]

  think that's why Apple has wisely made [TS]

  at the default even on the pros it's not [TS]

  just that it's more expensive but that [TS]

  it's really it's a good even for someone [TS]

  with who needs a hyper you know [TS]

  relatively on the scale of all of [TS]

  Apple's MacBooks higher performance [TS]

  model the MacBook Pro with the Core i5 [TS]

  is a good one so anyways that money you [TS]

  get an extra port meaning I'm just [TS]

  getting one port my MacBook Pros so [TS]

  anyway I do find that interesting on the [TS]

  surface I'll give them kudos I don't [TS]

  think it looks like a MacBook Air I [TS]

  think it's obviously I think Apple is [TS]

  largely defined the modern laptop in a [TS]

  way that there are some basic [TS]

  fundamental similarities to the MacBook [TS]

  energy design [TS]

  yeah the wedge design is certainly one [TS]

  but I don't think that's the sort of [TS]

  thing that even me as somebody who's [TS]

  relatively sensitive to people ripping [TS]

  off Mac books I don't think that's [TS]

  something that they can that they could [TS]

  lay ownership to you know it's even sort [TS]

  of like Tim Cook mentioned this I think [TS]

  when at the event last last year when [TS]

  they the when I introduced the MacBook [TS]

  Pros when they went through all of [TS]

  Apple's portables from the beginning of [TS]

  the I'd like from at least from the [TS]

  first power book I think they skipped [TS]

  the Mac portable but all the ones that [TS]

  you had identifies a laptop like the Mac [TS]

  portable was portable but wasn't the [TS]

  laptop like it seems crazy now but Apple [TS]

  was the first one who put the keyboard [TS]

  back so that you have palm rests in [TS]

  front all previous laptops had the keys [TS]

  right up to the front of the device and [TS]

  you know so the fact I just think that's [TS]

  just something that when you see it [TS]

  you're like oh that's an obvious way to [TS]

  do it I think the no wise design yeah [TS]

  right I think the wedge shape of the [TS]

  MacBook Air is an obvious way to shave [TS]

  weight off off a device where only some [TS]

  of the components need need the full [TS]

  thickness at the back and if you can [TS]

  make it thinner in a front you might as [TS]

  well so I don't hold that against him [TS]

  like at a glance you don't look at it [TS]

  and you wouldn't look at that and think [TS]

  that two MacBook Air [TS]

  I did but you know but I'm willing to [TS]

  concede the point that you watch the [TS]

  video because the video again is very [TS]

  similar to Apple design language you see [TS]

  that computer opening up and if you [TS]

  squint a little bit you can't tell the [TS]

  difference all right and they do you [TS]

  know they obviously took a lot of pride [TS]

  in the video and and it is Apple style [TS]

  video but it's there's a lot of pride in [TS]

  the internals too [TS]

  yes they showed the what would you call [TS]

  it the the it's obviously done in CGI [TS]

  but yeah the the computer the renders [TS]

  yeah coming apart that the different [TS]

  parts of it are you know the little [TS]

  screws and everything going in other [TS]

  words do they've gotten much I mean from [TS]

  for a software company they've gotten [TS]

  remarkable hardware chops over the last [TS]

  few years well it's funny that they've [TS]

  always had a good reputation for making [TS]

  like mice and keyboards right the device [TS]

  that Microsoft mice and keyboards have [TS]

  ever since they got into the business [TS]

  have had reputation as world-class you [TS]

  know but the Xbox Live not so much no [TS]

  red rings and squeaky boxes right um but [TS]

  yeah they you know and I I even like the [TS]

  way that the I think is it the windows [TS]

  logo or the Microsoft logo the four [TS]

  rectangles thing the windows logo yeah [TS]

  is that what it is it's you know it [TS]

  looks good it's you know they've finally [TS]

  gotten it to a point where it's reduced [TS]

  to a real icon it was really the de [TS]

  facto Microsoft logo by now so I think [TS]

  they use it everywhere it they're using [TS]

  a different material they've got like a [TS]

  soft touch forget the name of it there's [TS]

  a brand name that I wasn't familiar with [TS]

  but yes settle something yeah it's some [TS]

  kind of like fake leather type yeah [TS]

  artificial synthetic leather what [TS]

  astroturf is - grass or something um [TS]

  yeah but that it's used by you know [TS]

  premium luxury automakers for components [TS]

  and caught you know like the dashboards [TS]

  of cards or stuff like that [TS]

  so supposedly a great material would be [TS]

  will be interesting to see how it wears [TS]

  and you might think hey well duh of [TS]

  course it's going to wear well why would [TS]

  they use it if it doesn't wear well but [TS]

  you know then you think about the [TS]

  remember the iPod touch that yep they [TS]

  were sir well whatnot ipod touch it was [TS]

  an iPod Nano or something that was like [TS]

  you could be scratch it with your [TS]

  fingernail yeah no totally you can it's [TS]

  hard to but there's no amount of QA that [TS]

  can prepare you for a million customers [TS]

  about it so we'll see but that's it [TS]

  that's new I don't I don't recall ever [TS]

  seeing a premium laptop that was [TS]

  something other than aluminum or you [TS]

  know plastic as the surface yeah they [TS]

  said they wanted to be less sterile to [TS]

  be less cold to be more like a warmer [TS]

  feeling I just thought that's going to [TS]

  pick up a lot of stains and a lot of [TS]

  interns at least the lighter sellers [TS]

  would I think I don't [TS]

  would I think I don't [TS]

  oh um but I mean the argument I guess is [TS]

  that's going to patina like a good [TS]

  leather I don't know but there's a fancy [TS]

  way of saying this T yeah but it's weird [TS]

  though I think things that patina by [TS]

  touch are different than things like if [TS]

  you have like a leather watch strap or a [TS]

  leather belt it will get get a patina [TS]

  over time but it doesn't look like two [TS]

  sweaty palm prints yes right no yeah [TS]

  exactly you know it's coming from use as [TS]

  opposed to coming from just sweat on two [TS]

  spots right right on the palm rest and [TS]

  those are heavily using that's heavy [TS]

  trafficked area yeah so we'll see you [TS]

  you know but but give them credit for [TS]

  something original yeah it looks pretty [TS]

  good but I don't think the price is all [TS]

  that compelling I mean I don't think [TS]

  it's bad but I don't I don't get the [TS]

  argument that it makes Apple's MacBook [TS]

  pricing we've got a line no like the the [TS]

  one thing you could criticize Apple for [TS]

  is that at $99 $909 they do not have a [TS]

  retina computer that the MacBook Air is [TS]

  still a non retina machine although it [TS]

  does have an available wide over a [TS]

  variety of ports then this machine does [TS]

  right for people who want to always [TS]

  wanted a retina MacBook Air the MacBook [TS]

  MacBook Pro Escape is not quite that and [TS]

  this is close writer right and that is [TS]

  the take you know there are a couple of [TS]

  tweets along the lines of you know this [TS]

  is the MacBook Air that Apple the retina [TS]

  MacBook Air that Apple never made and [TS]

  you can kind of see that in you know [TS]

  squint your eyes and that's sort of [TS]

  basically what it is it's the wedge [TS]

  shape it's 13 inches display it has a [TS]

  Retina display it's got the Core i5 and [TS]

  core i7 chipsets as opposed to the Intel [TS]

  m3 m5 and seven chips that that the [TS]

  MacBook has yeah which I still don't [TS]

  like mean whenever those chips see my [TS]

  iPad pro they just cry it's you know [TS]

  that's the truth I mean for people who [TS]

  don't pay attention to those specs and I [TS]

  know some of you know some of you people [TS]

  listening obviously do but I think a lot [TS]

  of you probably don't but you know the [TS]

  the MacBook the one-port MacBook that we [TS]

  have today is very very very similar [TS]

  conceptually to the original when the [TS]

  iPod when the iPad if not iPad air [TS]

  macbook air first came out where it was [TS]

  not priced based on performance right [TS]

  that's the [TS]

  you know that and in traditional [TS]

  computer thinking you spend more to get [TS]

  a faster computer and you spend less and [TS]

  you get a slower computer by some you [TS]

  know by some multiple measures often of [TS]

  speed io CPU graphics you name it you [TS]

  spend more you get faster you spend less [TS]

  you get slower and the MacBook Air was a [TS]

  dramatic exception to that where the [TS]

  MacBook Air was a lot more expensive and [TS]

  a lot slower but what you got was [TS]

  something remarkably thinner and lighter [TS]

  you know famously taken out of a manila [TS]

  envelope by Steve Jobs on States to [TS]

  announce it to gasps outright gasps from [TS]

  the audience like the appeal was [TS]

  immediate but in terms of how is it [TS]

  priced it was very different it was a [TS]

  premium price product even though the [TS]

  performance was far behind a MacBook Pro [TS]

  like far less expensive computers the [TS]

  MacBook today is sort of like that the [TS]

  difference isn't is dramatic it's not [TS]

  super expensive you know I think what [TS]

  does it start at $12.99 and a reasonable [TS]

  configures by I would say around fifteen [TS]

  sixteen hundred dollars but it's slower [TS]

  than a $999 MacBook Air yeah and I think [TS]

  it's also if you actually look at that [TS]

  computer the components that Apple used [TS]

  in that are expensive and it's a really [TS]

  bad analogy but they delivered [TS]

  futuristic computer technology in the [TS]

  present and that's always expensive and [TS]

  I remember sort of asking like why it [TS]

  was this price and it seemed overpriced [TS]

  I got this aghast sort of look and then [TS]

  I got a very behind-the-scenes rundown [TS]

  of what actually went into make it like [TS]

  that displays incredibly sophisticated [TS]

  and a lot of Technology they had to [TS]

  invent to make the computer the way it [TS]

  is incredibly expensive and [TS]

  sophisticated and you could argue that [TS]

  they don't need to do that kind of thing [TS]

  and I think we'll see that again with [TS]

  the iPhone 8 when it ships that it's [TS]

  going to be more expensive than the [TS]

  current iPhones but because the [TS]

  technology they're putting in it would [TS]

  otherwise not come to market for a [TS]

  couple years and that's the cost of [TS]

  bringing that stuff forward sooner so [TS]

  you really are skipping ahead but you [TS]

  really think that they're going to [TS]

  they're going to ship an iPhone pro or X [TS]

  or eight or something that actually [TS]

  raises the prices from the current [TS]

  iPhone 7 and 7 plus prices yeah I think [TS]

  the 7 I mean I think they saw that [TS]

  there's price elasticity when they made [TS]

  the iPhone 7 plus 20 bucks more than [TS]

  previous iPhone 7 sorry the previous [TS]

  iPhone plus and that's going to carry [TS]

  forward [TS]

  they start introducing things like it's [TS]

  always a balancing act if we want to put [TS]

  something like distance charging and if [TS]

  we want to put a much better camera [TS]

  system and if we want to put much better [TS]

  screen technology all these things have [TS]

  a cost and they'll come down over time [TS]

  but if we do it today it's going to be [TS]

  this price if we do it next year the [TS]

  year after it's going to be this price [TS]

  and once in a while I think they're [TS]

  going to gamble and say we can afford to [TS]

  test the upper limits of life on pricing [TS]

  yeah and the other factor that comes [TS]

  into that is that they can they can not [TS]

  have to Bank on having seventy million [TS]

  of those components in the first oh yeah [TS]

  it controls demand the price is higher [TS]

  less people want it and then you know [TS]

  the constraint supplies don't matter as [TS]

  much I think if that's going to be their [TS]

  strategy with the iPhone which I don't [TS]

  think I don't think they would call the [TS]

  iPhone eight I really don't I think they [TS]

  would call the iPhone pro but or iPhone [TS]

  something and there because I think I [TS]

  think it in and if they also have iPhone [TS]

  7s and iPhone 7s plus that stay at these [TS]

  same prices we know today and just do a [TS]

  typical S upgrade which is often if not [TS]

  usually a better upgrade component wise [TS]

  than the non S years I think calling the [TS]

  new on the iPhone eight makes the iPhone [TS]

  7s it look older than it would if they [TS]

  gave it a non numbered name like the [TS]

  iPhone Edition was the other way it's [TS]

  funny because I think MacBook was [TS]

  macbook stealth originally and they just [TS]

  went with macbook right so they can play [TS]

  around with those things until they just [TS]

  make a last-minute decision right and [TS]

  those things the leak the least because [TS]

  that the yeah you know they don't print [TS]

  the names on the devices so they don't [TS]

  come out of the you know like you look [TS]

  on the back of your iPhone 7 it doesn't [TS]

  say iPhone 7 it just says I I phone and [TS]

  so that you know it's just a small [TS]

  number of product marketing people who [TS]

  do not do not leak and then my stuff [TS]

  around for a while anyway [TS]

  backed back to the surface laptop the [TS]

  other thing that so the other the [TS]

  flipside of the event was the software [TS]

  which was Windows 10 s which is and [TS]

  again the comparisons were all to Apple [TS]

  apples so it's fascinating to me as [TS]

  somebody who's been following this stuff [TS]

  obsessively you know for mine you know I [TS]

  was a teenager [TS]

  it is absolutely fascinating to me how [TS]

  central Apple is added to this entire [TS]

  announcement but yes software everything [TS]

  was compared everything on the hardware [TS]

  was compared to the MacBook and [TS]

  everything software was compared to iOS [TS]

  and Mac OS yeah but the big news there's [TS]

  a Windows 10s it's a cut-down version of [TS]

  Windows 10 and it is iOS style in some [TS]

  ways where apps can only come from the [TS]

  windows App Store and to get out of that [TS]

  it's not like the Mac where you can [TS]

  click a checkbox and you know there's or [TS]

  there's a radio button in the Mac and [TS]

  the security thing where you can choose [TS]

  a purse while out yeah the gatekeeper [TS]

  switch allow apps only from the app [TS]

  store or allow apps from the app store [TS]

  and from known identified developers and [TS]

  you can also you know even with that [TS]

  checked you can also use apps from [TS]

  unsigned developers but you have to be [TS]

  nerdy enough to know that to open them [TS]

  is by not just by double-clicking them [TS]

  you have to like ctrl click and choose [TS]

  open or use the gear menu in the finder [TS]

  just to double insure that you know [TS]

  exactly what you're getting into in [TS]

  terms of using an app from an untrusted [TS]

  developer so you can do that on the Mac [TS]

  the Windows 10 s is like iOS where the [TS]

  old there is no option d'arnaud options [TS]

  like that there's no options to get apps [TS]

  from sideload apps from outside this [TS]

  store from known developers and [TS]

  certainly no options to to get unsigned [TS]

  apps yeah you have to pray your way out [TS]

  of it it's a huge huge deal I mean it's [TS]

  the sort of thing that like if Microsoft [TS]

  had tried it ten years ago would have [TS]

  had antitrust law that was a suspicion [TS]

  like when the Mac App Store was first [TS]

  announced it was a whole bunch of people [TS]

  who panicked immediately said that we're [TS]

  one step away from Apple locking down [TS]

  the Mac with a lockdown iOS and this is [TS]

  just the first stage and Apple thus far [TS]

  not done it at all and it's it's [TS]

  interesting that Microsoft got there [TS]

  first right because as everybody's fear [TS]

  and and and I highlighted a tweet on [TS]

  during fireball from dieter bone of the [TS]

  verge who said that you know Apple you [TS]

  know [TS]

  Microsoft's the first dish might be [TS]

  paraphrasing but Microsoft's the first [TS]

  Microsoft ships a completely lockdown [TS]

  computer before Apple odd which I [TS]

  thought was interesting just because [TS]

  it's you know when he's talking about a [TS]

  computer it's clear that what he means [TS]

  is that he only thinks of max as real [TS]

  computers and not iPads because the [TS]

  iPads been out since 2011 and has been [TS]

  locked down the exact same way the whole [TS]

  time yeah other changes that they've [TS]

  done that are even tighter than Apple's [TS]

  iOS restrictions in some ways are with [TS]

  web browsers you can download other web [TS]

  browsers but only from the store and [TS]

  chrome is not in the store it was at one [TS]

  point so it might return but my [TS]

  understanding I've poked asked around [TS]

  was more or less that when Microsoft [TS]

  went to Google and said hey with the [TS]

  version of Chrome in the windows App [TS]

  Store you're turning it into Chrome OS [TS]

  you know that it was you know had its [TS]

  own App Store it do it again [TS]

  circling back to our discussion of Apple [TS]

  and apps that have quote-unquote [TS]

  apps within apps they were like knock it [TS]

  off and so rather than sort of take out [TS]

  that Chrome OS style integration of [TS]

  quote apps within Chrome Google just [TS]

  took the ball and went home but even if [TS]

  you do get a browser from the their App [TS]

  Store you can't set it as your default [TS]

  so like an email if you get an email [TS]

  with a URL in it and click it it's [TS]

  always going to open an edge and and [TS]

  here's the part that it would have been [TS]

  so much more interesting if they had [TS]

  done this years ago and if they had done [TS]

  it in Windows itself is the search [TS]

  feature in edge is Bing and only Bing [TS]

  and you have no other options so unlike [TS]

  let's say even iOS which is pretty [TS]

  locked out you can you get Google search [TS]

  by default still but you have the option [TS]

  for Bing Yahoo and DuckDuckGo yeah it's [TS]

  I mean it's hard to take things away [TS]

  from people and I think the expectations [TS]

  are different with it with iOS the [TS]

  expectation has always been that you've [TS]

  never been able to have third-party [TS]

  rendering engines which means like you [TS]

  know you've never been able to you've [TS]

  always been able to change your your [TS]

  default browser and with Microsoft in [TS]

  they're calling this Windows it feels [TS]

  like Windows it looks like Windows those [TS]

  features now feel taken away [TS]

  you've taken away my ability to get [TS]

  chrome you've taken away my ability to [TS]

  search with Google rather than being a [TS]

  feature of the operating system [TS]

  yeah generous things I'm intrigued to [TS]

  see how it plays out because I don't [TS]

  know who the market is for this exactly [TS]

  and there is an option last but not [TS]

  least there's an option where you can [TS]

  get this you could get if you buy any I [TS]

  guess any of these windows 10s devices [TS]

  if you pay 50 bucks you can upgrade to [TS]

  Windows 10 Pro but it's clear it's not [TS]

  just like you're paying 50 bucks to [TS]

  toggle a checkbox like you're changing [TS]

  the OS in certain ways keeper where you [TS]

  can turn it off download the app you [TS]

  want to turn it back on it's not like [TS]

  you can download Windows Pro get Chrome [TS]

  and go to bed to Windows s you know and [TS]

  I don't know enough about Windows to say [TS]

  for sure but it's clear that this the [TS]

  difference in Windows 10 s in Windows 10 [TS]

  Pro is more like it's two different [TS]

  versions of Windows 10 and there's [TS]

  obviously a lot of it shared stuff in [TS]

  there and it's not not like the [TS]

  difference between iOS and Mac OS where [TS]

  it's two entirely different operating [TS]

  systems yeah one Windows but they did [TS]

  advertise repeatedly during the event [TS]

  that Windows 10 s like there is you know [TS]

  that these the they don't call I forget [TS]

  what they call it but they don't call it [TS]

  sandboxing but there's the equivalent [TS]

  idea of sandboxing where apps from the [TS]

  Windows Store you know have can't do it [TS]

  like the old days where you can do it [TS]

  you know write all over the file system [TS]

  yeah at dll's [TS]

  do you note at the system level blah [TS]

  blah blah [TS]

  they had repeatedly said that as you use [TS]

  a Windows 10 s device over time it won't [TS]

  slow down which is you know III again I [TS]

  haven't used Windows on a regular basis [TS]

  and I don't know 10 or 15 years but it [TS]

  was always true and as far as I have [TS]

  heard recently is still true that you [TS]

  you know people can't nobody who's like [TS]

  an expert Windows user gets a Windows [TS]

  machine and four years later is still [TS]

  using it without having reinstalled at [TS]

  some point just to clean out the gunk [TS]

  yeah it's yeah it's super interesting to [TS]

  me the a lot of the choices that they [TS]

  made with this operating system and are [TS]

  they competing is clear they're [TS]

  competing with Apple in some aspects but [TS]

  they're also competing with chrome and [TS]

  Chrome OS and the growth of Chrome OS [TS]

  in schools and Chrome OS is the virtue [TS]

  is like the Chromebooks are super super [TS]

  cheap Chrome OS is essentially free [TS]

  chrome services Google services are [TS]

  essentially free makes it an incredibly [TS]

  easy to manage environment which [TS]

  education you know schools everybody [TS]

  loves and is Windows s really an answer [TS]

  to that is a way to get a super cheap [TS]

  free version of Windows onto a bunch of [TS]

  super cheap really inexpensive laptops I [TS]

  think the surface blacktop aside a lot [TS]

  of the third-party surface laptop style [TS]

  machines will be much less expensive but [TS]

  that brings with it a whole other sense [TS]

  so a whole other set of concessions or [TS]

  compromises I get the impression that at [TS]

  a at a practical level and from their [TS]

  business their what they really need to [TS]

  be concentrating on is chrome and [TS]

  Chromebooks and in you know they [TS]

  announced that they have through their [TS]

  noting Microsoft branded but through [TS]

  their partners oh my sir and a couple of [TS]

  others that they're coming out with $189 [TS]

  notebooks that run Windows 10 S which is [TS]

  you know pretty pretty good price point [TS]

  and clearly you know very specifically [TS]

  the event was education they marked at [TS]

  the education market the the surface [TS]

  laptop is clearly not aimed at the that [TS]

  part of the education market the tray [TS]

  full of laptops for kids to you know the [TS]

  grade school kids to get as they come in [TS]

  the school school there is though you [TS]

  know it's sort of it's still [TS]

  quote-unquote education but it's there's [TS]

  the like teenagers who are going to own [TS]

  their own computer for high school and [TS]

  college and it's a that's where Apple [TS]

  thrives right like so Apple because [TS]

  their prices are so much higher and [TS]

  because chrome you know for various [TS]

  reasons chrome has really really taken [TS]

  off in the classroom education market [TS]

  and it's kind of using to see if it [TS]

  repeats because when I was young there [TS]

  was at you know a lot of us had Apple [TS]

  computers but you'd go to schools and [TS]

  sometimes they would have PC computing [TS]

  labs because they were cheap and all [TS]

  you'd hear is kids go I hate this my Mac [TS]

  at home is so much nicer and I wonder if [TS]

  I'm going to get to the point where [TS]

  because schools you know are regimented [TS]

  the way that they are there's a bunch of [TS]

  cheap window [TS]

  is Essen probably a lot more Chromebooks [TS]

  and kids will go in and go us it's not [TS]

  like the iPad I have at home you know I [TS]

  hate it and that sort of builds a whole [TS]

  separate cliche cachet where maybe Apple [TS]

  isn't as competitive in the schools [TS]

  anymore but they're super competitive in [TS]

  the homes with the same sort of [TS]

  population yeah I think it's definitely [TS]

  true as the father of a seventh grader [TS]

  and its seventh grade it's a little [TS]

  different but in the lower grades just [TS]

  in the last few years at Jonas to school [TS]

  most of the computers that they had [TS]

  access to were Chromebooks um and the [TS]

  kids hated him but they're not hated him [TS]

  but they they didn't really see them as [TS]

  something desirable hates a wrong word [TS]

  but they more or less were just they're [TS]

  just Google Docs machines really that's [TS]

  really all they were and you know I [TS]

  guess they do some research on you know [TS]

  web browsers but they're just literally [TS]

  just used for searching the web for some [TS]

  amount of research and for you know [TS]

  writing reveaied a written assignment [TS]

  you do it in Google Docs and it saves to [TS]

  a folder where the teacher can get it [TS]

  and they're kind of junky and they're [TS]

  kind of squeaky and they're kind of [TS]

  mushy it's just like right I was because [TS]

  my clock is the same way they have [TS]

  chrome at school now it's all you want [TS]

  all in on it but they have iPads at home [TS]

  and they can tell like it's not they [TS]

  don't put it in those terms but they can [TS]

  tell that it just feel like I saw like [TS]

  their got the same experience all right [TS]

  and that's not necessarily a bad thing [TS]

  and I totally understand it from the [TS]

  school's perspective yeah because I [TS]

  don't you know that they don't think you [TS]

  know you don't want a more expensive you [TS]

  know the price is a huge issue and the [TS]

  durability is a huge issue and if you [TS]

  can combine it and have a device that at [TS]

  least is reasonably rugged and even if [TS]

  it does break it's only hundred eighty [TS]

  dollars to replace or whatever I totally [TS]

  get it but I bet the kids like the [TS]

  mindset of the kids on what they [TS]

  actually use and wanted to use was you [TS]

  know in our own time was I phones really [TS]

  I think that's an important part of the [TS]

  discussion in the overall education [TS]

  market yeah [TS]

  but the surface laptop clearly is is [TS]

  aimed I feel like from a business sense [TS]

  app Microsoft really needs to stem the [TS]

  growth of Chromebooks they need that [TS]

  market they need that you know they're [TS]

  their business to set up on the [TS]

  assumption that all of these low-end [TS]

  machines will be running Windows [TS]

  and we'll figure out a way to make money [TS]

  even if the margins are really low that [TS]

  that's you know that windows everywhere [TS]

  strategy is important to them I feel [TS]

  like it's more of a psychological pride [TS]

  thing that they are and for years now [TS]

  it's not just with the surface laptop [TS]

  but that they've sort of been not even [TS]

  sort of that they've been outright [TS]

  gunning for the MacBook in advertising [TS]

  with their products right they had a [TS]

  whole ad campaign based on the I I [TS]

  forget the name of their products but I [TS]

  think it's the surface book surface pro [TS]

  and sort of the surface pro I don't know [TS]

  but it's Dora was the first one that was [TS]

  the convertible tablet and the surface [TS]

  book was the laptop II convertible [TS]

  righted so the laptop be convertible [TS]

  there's an ad campaign that was pretty [TS]

  big where they ran and it the whole [TS]

  thing was based on can't do this on a [TS]

  MacBook and it's usually just drawing or [TS]

  touching this gray [TS]

  trying to make that look we've made a [TS]

  high quality laptop and it has a [TS]

  touchscreen trying to make that into a [TS]

  differentiating issue and they they [TS]

  mentioned you know in that campaign they [TS]

  mentioned MacBooks specifically and [TS]

  nothing else I mean and they can't [TS]

  really mention anything else because [TS]

  it's not targeted at Chromebooks it's a [TS]

  very different class machine these are [TS]

  like the thousand dollar range machine [TS]

  and they can't piss off their OEMs by [TS]

  talking about other Windows laptops but [TS]

  it feels like Microsoft is caught in a [TS]

  heart is he sort of caught in the middle [TS]

  right now and you have Apple at one side [TS]

  and Google get a cider and Microsoft is [TS]

  sort of running back and forth between [TS]

  them not really certain of its own [TS]

  identity sometimes competing with [TS]

  Microsoft with Google sometimes with [TS]

  Apple and I don't want to bring up the [TS]

  toaster French thing but I think it's an [TS]

  apt description of it's sort of changed [TS]

  it sort of bachas your focus with [TS]

  products because you're not you don't [TS]

  have your own clear destination you're [TS]

  sort of like what Apple's doing over [TS]

  here what Google's doing over here and [TS]

  you're meshing them together and I think [TS]

  that's sort of the disconnect that I see [TS]

  in the surface book yeah ok surface [TS]

  laptop well and the other thing too is [TS]

  that they tried to make some Hey at the [TS]

  end of last year in the wake of the [TS]

  mixed reviews of the new MacBook Pros [TS]

  and it said you know this is the end of [TS]

  2016 that they that that I forget if [TS]

  they said their surface in particular or [TS]

  the you know that the premium market [TS]

  which is defined as like a 999 and up [TS]

  for laptops that they're taking share [TS]

  away from Apple in that market and there [TS]

  were a couple of statements that they [TS]

  had but it was all Bezos numbers where [TS]

  they didn't give specific numbers or [TS]

  sources and just set it but the actual [TS]

  numbers that have been released and [TS]

  we're really since then don't bear that [TS]

  out Apple's Mac sales have been up and [TS]

  again Apple doesn't in their numbers [TS]

  release the split between notebooks and [TS]

  desktops but there's no reason to [TS]

  believe that their desktop sales are up [TS]

  because their best selling one the iMac [TS]

  is over a year old and there are other [TS]

  ones the Mac Pro and the Mac Mini are 17 [TS]

  and 23 years old respectively and even [TS]

  the best desktop year the the laptops [TS]

  dwarfed just right dwarfed the desktop [TS]

  sales and so there's absolutely you know [TS]

  apples Mac sales are up in the last two [TS]

  quarters they've reported so there's [TS]

  absolutely no sign that that Mac sales [TS]

  are down and so if they're if if it's [TS]

  true that Windows PCs in the premium [TS]

  market have taken share from Apple it [TS]

  doesn't make any sense because if [TS]

  Apple's sales are up technically it [TS]

  would be possible if the overall market [TS]

  were growing so fast that they could [TS]

  take share away even though apples still [TS]

  growing by outgrowing it but absolutely [TS]

  no nobody is reporting that premium [TS]

  Windows laptop sales are a growing part [TS]

  of the market in fact everybody's [TS]

  reporting that there's that it's a [TS]

  shrinking part of the market you're not [TS]

  collapsing but you know like a slowly [TS]

  deflating tire yes and there's no sign [TS]

  of that there's no sign of that abetting [TS]

  yeah and it's funny that again going [TS]

  back to the Apple watch they never [TS]

  watched the considered beleaguered is [TS]

  considered doomed that a lot of the [TS]

  angles taken reports where surface was [TS]

  you know by no measure selling well we [TS]

  had no idea what it was selling but it [TS]

  was being ballooned it was being propped [TS]

  up it were headlines all over the place [TS]

  hanging out like the resurgence of the [TS]

  Windows laptop and the coverage of the [TS]

  numbers you talked about that had no [TS]

  backing from Microsoft as far as I can [TS]

  tell though that was pretty extensive [TS]

  and the coverage of the surface not [TS]

  doing well is not been similarly [TS]

  right they've just announced that this [TS]

  you know sales room not now again not [TS]

  collapsing but the surface sales were [TS]

  down pretty significantly in the last [TS]

  quarter yet they reported so I don't see [TS]

  that happening all right let me take a [TS]

  break here and thank our third and final [TS]

  sponsor of the show two good friends at [TS]

  audible audible has an unmatched [TS]

  selection of audiobooks and this is [TS]

  pretty new to them original audio shows [TS]

  they've got news comedy and more their [TS]

  own audio shows you get an account you [TS]

  sign up and you get access to all of it [TS]

  you get a 30 day free trial if you go to [TS]

  audible.com slash talk show if you want [TS]

  to listen to it whatever it is for you [TS]

  audible has it they've got audiobooks [TS]

  from virtually every genre anytime [TS]

  anywhere and you can play there [TS]

  audiobooks on phones tablets computers [TS]

  most Kindles even your iPod you can sync [TS]

  it to your computer anything you can [TS]

  listen to digital content on you can [TS]

  listen into audible stuff on it's great [TS]

  for flights it is great for long road [TS]

  trips it is great for your daily commute [TS]

  anywhere where you listen to podcasts [TS]

  like wherever you are right now [TS]

  listening to me tell you about this [TS]

  great spot to list an audible content [TS]

  when you run out of episodes of my show [TS]

  and the other shows that you'd like to [TS]

  listen to [TS]

  they've even got something that they [TS]

  call the great listen guarantee if you [TS]

  start an audiobook from audible.com [TS]

  you don't have an audible account but [TS]

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  talk show know that just slash talk show [TS]

  my thanks to audible I should point out [TS]

  when I say about when I talk about the [TS]

  coverage I don't mean that Apple should [TS]

  be given a free ride on these things I [TS]

  think it's the same thing as like when [TS]

  touch ID is considered a disaster at [TS]

  launch but the botched facial [TS]

  recognition is fine I think everybody [TS]

  should be scrutinized to the level that [TS]

  Apple is it's not that they should give [TS]

  Apple a break but they should hold [TS]

  everybody to that same standard because [TS]

  as a consumer I want to know all that [TS]

  stuff when I make my decision on what I [TS]

  want [TS]

  next and I feel like I'm being [TS]

  underserved right now because I hear [TS]

  every little all the hot takes about [TS]

  Apple and everything else sort of just [TS]

  skates by yeah well I think it's we're [TS]

  talking about the elephant in a room of [TS]

  Apple's MacBook lineup is the MacBook [TS]

  Air because it's I think it's I think I [TS]

  checked today I think it's 788 days [TS]

  since they updated the the specs so it's [TS]

  two years old it still cost $9.99 it [TS]

  doesn't have a Retina screen and and you [TS]

  know it I it it's the existence of that [TS]

  product that gives rise to the hate at [TS]

  Microsoft just put out this thing and it [TS]

  makes it the MacBook lineup look [TS]

  overpriced I don't think that if you [TS]

  look at the if you look at the MacBook [TS]

  and I you know the MacBook one port I [TS]

  don't even know it I think we'll [TS]

  probably due for an update on that [TS]

  because the last one came out a year ago [TS]

  but a year is not an unreasonable period [TS]

  of time to wait for an update so if we [TS]

  get one at WWDC I would say right on [TS]

  time MacBook Pros obviously just came [TS]

  out last fall and I think are you know I [TS]

  don't buy the argument that they're [TS]

  overpriced I think for what they are [TS]

  they are correctly priced even though at [TS]

  certain price points that means that [TS]

  getting a quote-unquote new MacBook Pro [TS]

  has a higher price the price of a [TS]

  MacBook Pro plus the Apple watch that's [TS]

  essentially embedded inside it right [TS]

  exactly and and I think that the if you [TS]

  respect things out like when I did the [TS]

  comparison to the to the surface laptop [TS]

  what I was configuring it against I [TS]

  don't think I mentioned this I was [TS]

  configuring it against the new MacBook [TS]

  Pro with the buttons not the touch bar [TS]

  because that's to me the most apt [TS]

  comparison like to me that is the [TS]

  MacBook Air with retina that everybody [TS]

  claims that they want Apple to make the [TS]

  MacBook Air with with with a Retina [TS]

  screen is the new MacBook Pro that [TS]

  doesn't have the touch bar social or is [TS]

  that as much when you introduced it yeah [TS]

  identity well yeah it's so much in so [TS]

  many ways by comparing it to the size [TS]

  and weight and thickness of the MacBook [TS]

  Air which it compares very favorably you [TS]

  know it matches up with and it's way [TS]

  faster and as a beautiful screen and etc [TS]

  but the MacBook Air is old in ass in [TS]

  there $9.99 and doesn't have a Retina [TS]

  screen and you know not arguing but just [TS]

  having a very very nice debate with [TS]

  people on Twitter about it recently like [TS]

  Marco Arment and Twitter made that point [TS]

  and it's hard to argue with that in 2017 [TS]

  Apple should not be selling any device [TS]

  that has a display that's not redneck [TS]

  caliber in terms of resolution and I [TS]

  agree with that in theory it that's it's [TS]

  - its 2017 is too late to still be [TS]

  selling a brand new product that brand [TS]

  new meaning that you're buying it out of [TS]

  the box [TS]

  yes factory sealed not price retail yeah [TS]

  right I think it's you know the non [TS]

  retina MacBook Air is like the new 16 [TS]

  gigabyte iOS device yeah I can't defend [TS]

  it I think it's I would recommend [TS]

  against it I if somebody asked me if [TS]

  they should buy one I would say no and [TS]

  that would be the reason why but you [TS]

  pointed out so well with the Mac Pro [TS]

  thing is that Apple doesn't have a game [TS]

  plan for this it's like if we don't have [TS]

  something new to announce and we're not [TS]

  cancelling it it just stays at exactly [TS]

  the same price in the right lock because [TS]

  they want to keep something at that [TS]

  $9.99 price that is a Mac laptop but [TS]

  they feel like they can't sell the [TS]

  MacBook one port at that price yet yeah [TS]

  and still keep the margins they want you [TS]

  know I think what they're doing is [TS]

  waiting and and I don't know if it's [TS]

  this year I have no inside information [TS]

  but my theory is what they will do is [TS]

  eventually they'll have an updated [TS]

  state-of-the-art MacBook just plain [TS]

  MacBook yeah and put the year old just [TS]

  plain MacBook at a lower price point [TS]

  until it gets to $9.99 and then at that [TS]

  point the MacBook Air goes away yeah [TS]

  it'll be a little sad if they stick to [TS]

  the Intel Core M platform for that [TS]

  because it just is not the same either [TS]

  analyst it's fabulous which is great but [TS]

  it's just I don't know how to get out of [TS]

  that though because I don't yeah you [TS]

  can't use a court I don't know you know [TS]

  I think you're I think you're stuck [TS]

  waiting for the for the the M series to [TS]

  get fast enough that you don't mind I [TS]

  mean it can happen I mean you know the [TS]

  the a-10 is a fanless design and you [TS]

  know it's faster that's the other thing [TS]

  that's sort of great about the MacBook [TS]

  yes that the iPad pro in in my opinion [TS]

  has a faster CPU I think that the you [TS]

  know the single core Geekbench scores [TS]

  are a reasonable you know I realized [TS]

  that they don't correlate exactly the [TS]

  real-world use no and they're [TS]

  purpose-built so the two things that you [TS]

  note right off the bat is that Apple can [TS]

  build those cores exactly for what they [TS]

  want so they can have super fast there's [TS]

  a single-threaded operations because [TS]

  that's what people hit money do [TS]

  interface and stuff like that but they [TS]

  can all retire for the second generation [TS]

  MacBook it could barely handle one [TS]

  stream of 4k well while that ea9 not [TS]

  even the a-10 version of the iPad pro [TS]

  there is no a 10 version yet the a9 [TS]

  version of the iPad pro could handle [TS]

  three streams of 4k because Apple built [TS]

  that chip exactly to do that and they [TS]

  don't have control over Intel and until [TS]

  will do things like the a as far as I [TS]

  can tell they core m3 is a hot a [TS]

  deliberately hobbled chip then maybe [TS]

  Apple shouldn't use but Intel just makes [TS]

  it worse than the m5 because they want a [TS]

  lower price point for that chipset so [TS]

  you know there's you know there's a [TS]

  waiting game involved there and because [TS]

  part of it I think too is like you just [TS]

  alluded to is some a big part of it is [TS]

  out of apples hands where they were [TS]

  waiting for Intel and that opens the [TS]

  door to the whole Mel maybe they'll go [TS]

  you know put an ARM chip being on their [TS]

  own custom ARM chip in them in a mat why [TS]

  AMD they've all this money writer by who [TS]

  knows who knows what they're thinking [TS]

  but it's you know switching to arm on [TS]

  one model of Mac is a lot more [TS]

  complicated yet and then we have time to [TS]

  discuss and I don't think it's going to [TS]

  happen and therefore you know there [TS]

  might be something I don't foresee there [TS]

  might be some way out of this but [TS]

  basically they're waiting for Intel on [TS]

  that so I don't know I don't know you [TS]

  know I don't know what to say and I'd [TS]

  but I can totally see I wouldn't also [TS]

  wouldn't recommend that Apple you know [TS]

  update the MacBook Air and put a Retina [TS]

  screen in there yeah I feel like there's [TS]

  something and there were rumors of a [TS]

  device in between now sort of a larger [TS]

  version I was a 14 inch Mac yes [TS]

  something yeah whatever happened to that [TS]

  ID hasn't shipped all right there's no [TS]

  kb lake version of the macbook there's [TS]

  no 14 inch version of the macbook this [TS]

  rest then the updated i've Mac's not [TS]

  here yet now now the 14 inch MacBook was [TS]

  a weird there was a weird rumor that [TS]

  some people seem certain of and never [TS]

  shipped anyway let's move on [TS]

  WD see stuff [TS]

  I just quickly want to say I am having a [TS]

  live show it's announced I people keep [TS]

  asking about tickets soon very as you [TS]

  listen to this it will be very soon we [TS]

  are moving but I don't have anything to [TS]

  announce yet so patience yeah sorry [TS]

  there are a couple of other events I [TS]

  know that they're on the same webpage on [TS]

  Apple's ww2 they're very very it's very [TS]

  very nice of Apple to promote these [TS]

  alternate or at home for you with the [TS]

  column but community events there is a [TS]

  Coco conf taking place in a hotel right [TS]

  adjacent to the Convention Center that [TS]

  where WWC is Coco conference held a [TS]

  couple times a year I've never been but [TS]

  it I have friends who've spoken there [TS]

  and have attended and and swear up and [TS]

  down that is amazing conference to try [TS]

  cat 1299 conference for developers are [TS]

  they have a great speaker line-up [TS]

  they'll be right there next to WWC so I [TS]

  would I think Coco confidence so sort of [TS]

  a great plan be for people who wanted to [TS]

  go to WWE and did lost the the lottery [TS]

  for tickets so look into that if you're [TS]

  a developer and you want something like [TS]

  that there's alt comp which is also in a [TS]

  hotel [TS]

  adjacent to the convention hall it I've [TS]

  never been there but it seems to me like [TS]

  there's two hotels that are literally [TS]

  connected to the Convention Center and [TS]

  that those hotels themselves have [TS]

  convention space yeah and so one of them [TS]

  is a Coco Kampf the other one is alt con [TS]

  fault Kampf is free so that's a great [TS]

  option if you're not looking to spend [TS]

  money but I think is also sort of [TS]

  developer oriented and then last but not [TS]

  least in fact last but probably the [TS]

  opposite least is the layers conference [TS]

  which is a great great great conference [TS]

  it's more design or in it is it's not a [TS]

  developer conference so for those of you [TS]

  who aren't interested in design or in [TS]

  development [TS]

  you're not coders but your designer it [TS]

  is a great conference I was a there was [TS]

  two years ago where I got to interview [TS]

  Susan care the designer of the original [TS]

  Macintosh icons and all the original [TS]

  Macintosh fonts which is still maybe [TS]

  that but I can't believe I'm the most I [TS]

  can't believe I'm doing this moment of [TS]

  my entire career like you know like [TS]

  having Phil Schiller on the talk [TS]

  was a thrill and meeting Steve Jobs was [TS]

  thrilled but for me personally the not [TS]

  necessarily thrilling but just like I [TS]

  can't believe I'm doing this [TS]

  interviewing Susan kare on stage was [TS]

  just absolutely amazing because she's [TS]

  just one of my favorite designers of all [TS]

  time like literally got me you know it [TS]

  it was as famous to me as Steve Jobs was [TS]

  at a very young age because I knew that [TS]

  she did all of this amazing work almost [TS]

  single-handedly on the original Mac and [TS]

  it was all down to the pixel just [TS]

  perfect um that was great but that [TS]

  speakers there it's great and it's so so [TS]

  nice layers is just one of those [TS]

  conferences where it's like I cannot [TS]

  believe that once a year these people [TS]

  put together a conference for everything [TS]

  is so nice and you get nice coffee and [TS]

  it's a nice room and stuff like that so [TS]

  I have a special deal for people listen [TS]

  to the talk show you go to layers is [TS]

  that's the website or you can just [TS]

  google for layers conference but the [TS]

  website is layers dot is and if you use [TS]

  this code you'll save a hundred bucks on [TS]

  registration and I know they're doing [TS]

  pretty well I know that but there's [TS]

  definitely still openings and if you're [TS]

  going to go if you're thinking about [TS]

  having an excuse to be in the W DC area [TS]

  during WWC you're going to want to book [TS]

  stuff you know now's the time to book so [TS]

  you get you know you're not making [TS]

  arrangements at the last minute you will [TS]

  save a hundred bucks and here's the code [TS]

  you can use that they'll know you came [TS]

  from me there's not a sponsorship this [TS]

  is something I'm doing as a friend to [TS]

  jesse charge runs the conference yeah [TS]

  because I wholeheartedly recommend it [TS]

  this isn't a sponsorship but I just it's [TS]

  just a great conference so you save 100 [TS]

  bucks here's the code martini [TS]

  use that code and I worked it out i [TS]

  adder test it you can also get the same [TS]

  you can get the same code same discount [TS]

  if you type the martini emoji I dare you [TS]

  to try it I think it'll perfect that's [TS]

  perfect [TS]

  it isn't that perfect yeah I hope it [TS]

  works don't try that out layers is it is [TS]

  such a good conference and it's such a [TS]

  great I think she'd be pretty excited I [TS]

  don't know who knows this whole thing [TS]

  could be weird but if you're thinking [TS]

  about if you're hoping to make last [TS]

  minute I just talking to somebody else [TS]

  today it was like on the fence about [TS]

  whether they are going to be you know [TS]

  can they book you know get to San Jose [TS]

  for WWC week [TS]

  so I know that there's people out there [TS]

  whose are still thinking maybe they will [TS]

  maybe they won't but if you want to have [TS]

  a good reason to be there layers it's a [TS]

  good good as good as anything yeah and [TS]

  if your designer is a perfect complement [TS]

  to BC because I know every year they try [TS]

  more and more to have more and more [TS]

  design sessions and they have the design [TS]

  review labs but it's really a developer [TS]

  show and layers is such a great [TS]

  complement to it yeah and I forget what [TS]

  else they do did that there's some [TS]

  integrations with WWC Apple people come [TS]

  in to talk about interface design and [TS]

  stuff like that so check out their [TS]

  website you have salt the info also I [TS]

  just love the layers logo this year it [TS]

  is so great because it is so self [TS]

  referential to the name where it's very [TS]

  design looking but anyway check out [TS]

  their website even if you're not a nurse [TS]

  in a conference just to see the [TS]

  excellent graphic design what else do [TS]

  you got there was that we didn't talk [TS]

  about it but the we mentioned it before [TS]

  but we didn't go into the whole whole [TS]

  thing with uber tagging iPhones you can [TS]

  tell it's an interesting week for uber [TS]

  when they have not one but two [TS]

  controversies on the same day what was [TS]

  the other one I heard you had them both [TS]

  in your original ride out I don't know [TS]

  everything yes and now he's canceled his [TS]

  recoded I mean right well that was they [TS]

  I had to happen there was no way that he [TS]

  yes possibly get up there I mean it [TS]

  really I I [TS]

  I almost wish what they should have done [TS]

  is like Kickstarter like just like [TS]

  alright I'll do it but we've got to like [TS]

  Kickstarter a million dollars for you [TS]

  know app camp for girls or so some good [TS]

  cause like that like can you imagine how [TS]

  much money you would've raised to kick [TS]

  Kara Swisher and Walt Mossberg discover [TS]

  him on stage oh my god but anyway the [TS]

  story came out Mike Isaac of the New [TS]

  York Times had a story in a profile of [TS]

  Callen ik the CEO of co-founder of uber [TS]

  and mentioned that a couple of years ago [TS]

  he got called in to for a meeting with [TS]

  Tim Cook at Apple's camp conference or [TS]

  campus and cook confronted him with the [TS]

  fact that Apple figured out that they [TS]

  were and this is where the story was [TS]

  murky or initially where the initial [TS]

  version of the story that was up in the [TS]

  New York Times in the morning said that [TS]

  they were tagging and tracking iPhones [TS]

  even after the app was deleted or even [TS]

  if the OS was erased from the phone and [TS]

  reset and then the word tracking was [TS]

  taken out in a subsequent edit in the [TS]

  afternoon but the you know the horses [TS]

  were out of the barn at that point where [TS]

  people were panicked and part of it is [TS]

  rightfully fueled by uber has been [TS]

  caught with so many shady practices that [TS]

  if they could do that of course they [TS]

  would like it [TS]

  it passes the sniff test of yes if a [TS]

  believable right but there was no [TS]

  tracking meaning you here tracking [TS]

  phones and you think well I had the uber [TS]

  app and if I have the rap I you know it [TS]

  can use my location because that's how [TS]

  the car comes and gets you and so you [TS]

  hear that what people think is well I [TS]

  deleted the uber app because I don't [TS]

  like the company I've used lyft or for [TS]

  whatever reason they deleted the app and [TS]

  the fear that Hooper is still tracking [TS]

  them and doing something like figuring [TS]

  out if they're using lyft even if you [TS]

  don't have the app and you know it's if [TS]

  you know iOS you'd know what that sounds [TS]

  like it should be impossible because [TS]

  when an app is delete at all you know [TS]

  it's you can't do things like you could [TS]

  do on traditional PCs like sneakily put [TS]

  a background process in a system [TS]

  directory so even if your app is deleted [TS]

  you've still got this remnant of you [TS]

  behind you know that's the whole point [TS]

  of these containers that apps ship and [TS]

  now is that when you delete the app as a [TS]

  user just hold the app make it jiggle [TS]

  hit the X anything it could run on your [TS]

  phone is gone but that's not what they [TS]

  were doing I think basically we're still [TS]

  not sure exactly what was going on but [TS]

  basically they were quote-unquote [TS]

  fingerprinting the phone and they were [TS]

  figuring out a way to get a uniquely [TS]

  identify a phone phoning that home to Oh [TS]

  BRR so they could store it it's not like [TS]

  they were just essentially [TS]

  fingerprinting it and then using that [TS]

  fingerprint as a way to tell whence when [TS]

  the same device was reassessing the [TS]

  service right I lost my train of thought [TS]

  there but that's exactly right and it [TS]

  was to counter some sort of fraud that [TS]

  was going on in China where I think [TS]

  basically the story was that they had [TS]

  like a promotion to get people to start [TS]

  using uber where you could get a free [TS]

  ride if you're new to BRR [TS]

  and if you're a driver and you pick up [TS]

  one of these free rides you still get [TS]

  the credit as a driver they're not [TS]

  you know ubers the corporation is eating [TS]

  the free ride not the drivers because [TS]

  you know drivers would rightly revolt [TS]

  so what drivers are doing is setting up [TS]

  some kind of scam where they would get [TS]

  stolen iPhones and configure them as new [TS]

  and put the uber app on and get the free [TS]

  ride and pick them up you know like me [TS]

  and you could work as a team and I'll [TS]

  pick you up and with the free thing and [TS]

  drop you off and then you erase the [TS]

  phone and and put it on all over and [TS]

  pretend to be somebody new and get [TS]

  another free ride and I pick you up and [TS]

  you know somehow bilking them out of [TS]

  free rides like that [TS]

  and so if they could uniquely identify [TS]

  the phone it would it would it I guess [TS]

  it did actually allow them to sort of [TS]

  block that sort of thing where they [TS]

  could tell hey this phones collected [TS]

  free rides twice already forget it you [TS]

  know and abruptly con a company that [TS]

  less regulations get in the way of their [TS]

  doing you know doing business right so [TS]

  the basic story you know and again this [TS]

  is it certainly did not seem to come [TS]

  from Apple's side it seemed to more [TS]

  likely come from somebody on ubers side [TS]

  but the gist was that you know Tim Cook [TS]

  supposedly told him hey so knock it off [TS]

  yeah and they did oh and the other thing [TS]

  that they had was that the somehow knew [TS]

  that Apple might look at this in app [TS]

  review and they put at Cal annex request [TS]

  put a geofence around apples campus so [TS]

  that when uber app was running within [TS]

  you know X distance of Cupertino it [TS]

  wouldn't do the fingerprinting that's [TS]

  it's a remarkable to me that a company [TS]

  that is such a based on such like [TS]

  geolocation technology we think you know [TS]

  not think about Apple having other [TS]

  offices like well Sunnyvale what are [TS]

  they doing Oh San Francisco what's [TS]

  happening with uber Boston what's going [TS]

  on here it's I know if it's hubris or [TS]

  naivete or some mixture of both well [TS]

  both but I think hubris largely an [TS]

  arrogance and and the outrage on Twitter [TS]

  and you know in a moral sense it was [TS]

  correct was you know why in the world [TS]

  does Ober just Kim Tim Cook give Boober [TS]

  hey knock it off [TS]

  slap on the wrist and give them a chance [TS]

  to just remove this and stay in the App [TS]

  Store when [TS]

  um you know other apps if again just me [TS]

  and you [TS]

  jointly together make an app you know or [TS]

  put a new version of Vesper out and it [TS]

  tags and identifies phones they're just [TS]

  going to kick the app out of the App [TS]

  Store I I get it I see that you know in [TS]

  a certain moral sense I see the argument [TS]

  there that are just a sense that that's [TS]

  it doesn't seem fair that a small guy [TS]

  would get kicked out in a big company [TS]

  let alone a big company full of jerks [TS]

  like uber gets to stay in but that's the [TS]

  way the world works right like uber has [TS]

  some you know has more stature because [TS]

  it's a super popular app that iPhone [TS]

  users use and in some ways yes it's up [TS]

  you know apples doing the right thing by [TS]

  making identifying this and making it [TS]

  stop [TS]

  but our iPhone users as a whole call you [TS]

  know however many 100 million of them [TS]

  there are happier or sadder if uber is [TS]

  literally kicked out of the App Store [TS]

  yeah Pulaski it means the same thing [TS]

  discussion we had with Facebook earlier [TS]

  where Apple has to be pragmatic about [TS]

  these things they have a certain amount [TS]

  of like don't you have to wait these [TS]

  things they can't all be done on a [TS]

  strict black and white scale because [TS]

  that sounds great in the abstract but [TS]

  doesn't work in life and we make those [TS]

  decisions all the time we as we will be [TS]

  upset that apples not doing things [TS]

  fairly or morally we have the same [TS]

  problem when we're dealing with our [TS]

  client or the same issues when we're [TS]

  dealing with different people in our [TS]

  lives it's that you know these companies [TS]

  are all not they're not equal they're [TS]

  companies which Apple has beholden their [TS]

  companies to which Apple has absolutely [TS]

  no interest in and they're companies [TS]

  where maybe you burr is like this where [TS]

  they sort of both need each other and it [TS]

  would be devastating for uber to be off [TS]

  of the iPhone but it would hurt Apple [TS]

  considerably to have uber off the iPhone [TS]

  as well yeah I think and I don't know [TS]

  you know I don't know the backstory on [TS]

  this I don't even know how much of it is [TS]

  technique you know exactly what happened [TS]

  it's all from this one Mike Isaac story [TS]

  and doesn't seem like anybody's got to [TS]

  follow up but what I would have liked to [TS]

  have seen is not for Apple to kick [TS]

  Cooper out of the store I really from a [TS]

  pragmatic standpoint I understand why [TS]

  that you know you I mean I I think it [TS]

  might have happened if Kalin had said [TS]

  that Tim Cook screw you we're going to [TS]

  keep doing it you know [TS]

  there's a certain you know all right you [TS]

  know you get called into the principal [TS]

  and maybe the principal gives you [TS]

  another chance but you can't to give the [TS]

  principal the finger right yeah but I [TS]

  think what Apple what I would have liked [TS]

  to seen them do if everything that we [TS]

  know about this if we think we know [TS]

  about the story is true is I think that [TS]

  they should have made Eber disclose what [TS]

  they had been doing in exact detail and [TS]

  say here's the information we were [TS]

  collecting about phones here's how we [TS]

  did it and you know you know you have [TS]

  our word that we've deleted our database [TS]

  of these identifiers yeah ia refused [TS]

  then I think Apple should have disclosed [TS]

  it I that the part that is doesn't sit [TS]

  right with me from what Apple did is [TS]

  that Apple knew that they were doing [TS]

  this they knew that their customers had [TS]

  had their phones fingerprinted by uber [TS]

  and Apple was apparently willing to to [TS]

  let that go unknown I mean there's a [TS]

  chance that maybe Apple did do something [TS]

  which is that maybe Apple somebody at [TS]

  Apple was the source from Mike Isaac for [TS]

  that story and that by leaking that that [TS]

  was their way of disclosing that that's [TS]

  what Oprah had done [TS]

  but I would have liked to have seen to [TS]

  do it in a way that's on the record even [TS]

  if it was Apple who was somebody at [TS]

  Apple who was the anonymous source for [TS]

  that I still think that this should have [TS]

  been in a some sort of official [TS]

  acknowledgement that this went on even [TS]

  though I don't think it was all that [TS]

  gross of a privacy violation in the [TS]

  grand scheme of privacy violations yeah [TS]

  so I think the you know if uber had been [TS]

  literally tracking people I think it [TS]

  would have forced a much greater [TS]

  response from Apple or a much more [TS]

  public response from Apple because [TS]

  there's some offenses that are just so [TS]

  egregious that there's no other [TS]

  alternative but this to me is and [TS]

  against the horrible analogy but if like [TS]

  Grenada does something the US doesn't [TS]

  like they can literally just drop in [TS]

  take over the airport and do whatever [TS]

  they want it doesn't work in Moscow [TS]

  right right it is mutually assured [TS]

  destruction there right well you know [TS]

  and there maybe there's other countries [TS]

  that are bigger there wouldn't be [TS]

  mutually assured destruction like London [TS]

  you can't just take the London Airport [TS]

  right uh [TS]

  well pick a country without nukes but [TS]

  you know yeah Australia let's say yeah [TS]

  classy knee I don't know cuz our [TS]

  relations with Sydney I don't know if [TS]

  you've heard they're a little rocky okay [TS]

  uh but uh yeah it's not a bad [TS]

  gee that you know yeah grenade is a [TS]

  little different than you know bigger [TS]

  countries yeah I still just feel like [TS]

  they should have forgot you know in old [TS]

  days this the funny part is you know in [TS]

  the old days with any innocent days of [TS]

  i/os you know it's just funny because it [TS]

  it's hard I think it's hard for Apple [TS]

  people who work at Apple to even think [TS]

  from the perspective of like these ad [TS]

  networks that want to do all this [TS]

  tracking and stuff but in the old days [TS]

  they were API is official API is not [TS]

  like private API is but like it the idea [TS]

  that you might want to uniquely identify [TS]

  a phone was like a feature and it was [TS]

  only once that started getting abused by [TS]

  ad networks in privacy invasive ways [TS]

  that Apple you know deprecated and then [TS]

  remove those API yeah you could say just [TS]

  take the edid right and carrot I think [TS]

  is you wanted to write like when you [TS]

  plug your phone into iTunes itunes can [TS]

  still see it you see there's a unique [TS]

  Device Identifier I think it's it [TS]

  printed on the back of the phone still [TS]

  in that small print I can't read it just [TS]

  like so is but they used to sometimes on [TS]

  some models that they would print it on [TS]

  but you can go to the settings screen in [TS]

  iOS and get the UDID you get the MAC [TS]

  address in other words each Ethernet [TS]

  port in the world yes a unique MAC [TS]

  address that that can uniquely identify [TS]

  a device I mean I remember in the old [TS]

  days when when I first started being [TS]

  used and it wasn't all that reliable [TS]

  because people you know had you know [TS]

  building their own pcs would take the [TS]

  ethernet you know it was a card that you [TS]

  could take out and so you know you [TS]

  couldn't necessarily associate the [TS]

  ethernet ID the MAC ID with a device but [TS]

  obviously nobody is changing the MAC [TS]

  idea of an iPhone there were all sorts [TS]

  of ways to uniquely identify a device [TS]

  that were officially supported and [TS]

  Apple's one by one eliminated them all [TS]

  but it's you know it's obvious to [TS]

  anybody [TS]

  when Apple eliminated those things that [TS]

  figuring out a way around it to still [TS]

  get a unique identifier on it on an [TS]

  iPhone was contrary to Apple's [TS]

  intentions like this is not a loophole [TS]

  this was a direct circumvention yet you [TS]

  know of a lock door you know anything [TS]

  somebody leaves the door unlocked and [TS]

  you go in you can maybe argue I didn't [TS]

  know I wasn't supposed to go in the door [TS]

  was a lock if you get to a door and it's [TS]

  locked but [TS]

  figure out a way to unlock it yeah did [TS]

  you have no excuse yeah no totally and [TS]

  again this is a is famous value and [TS]

  sometimes they've been applauded for [TS]

  their pugnacious you know a combative do [TS]

  what we want to do aspirin you know [TS]

  don't ask for permission and this is the [TS]

  flip side of that all right the other [TS]

  thing that rolled out of this story was [TS]

  sort of an aside in this Mike Isaac a [TS]

  story about uber in this collection of [TS]

  data was that uber had been one of the [TS]

  other theatres hits of all the shady [TS]

  stuff that they've done but that they [TS]

  paid money to a company called unroll me [TS]

  or no I guess that was the parent [TS]

  company of unroll me and they slice [TS]

  slice analytics and that's a company [TS]

  that's come up before in iPhone and [TS]

  Apple related products where slices this [TS]

  company that claims to have and it does [TS]

  have access to people's in in boxes [TS]

  because they offer these services where [TS]

  they they let people sign up and get [TS]

  some kind of rewards and exchange for [TS]

  slice getting to see their incoming [TS]

  email which again sounds crazy to me [TS]

  that you know but you know some people [TS]

  you know have different people yeah they [TS]

  people do not see the value of their [TS]

  data only they see the value of their [TS]

  cash or their time despite the fact that [TS]

  these companies will spend unlimited [TS]

  amounts of time and money just to get [TS]

  your data the slice has come up before [TS]

  where they've they've used this data to [TS]

  command and make projections about what [TS]

  what iPhones people have bought and how [TS]

  it compares your over a year because [TS]

  their customers last year got so many [TS]

  iPhone receipts in their email in the [TS]

  first 72 hours since it went on sale and [TS]

  this year to this and that and so I you [TS]

  know my mention of them previously is I [TS]

  don't really you know it's interesting I [TS]

  don't think it's complete noise but I [TS]

  don't trust data when it only comes from [TS]

  people who've signed up for service that [TS]

  lets internet marketing firm read all of [TS]

  your email but they bought a company [TS]

  called unroll me that offers a service [TS]

  that again you filter all your email [TS]

  through them and they make it easy to [TS]

  like unsubscribe from things you can [TS]

  unsubscribe to or to put all of your [TS]

  not spam but like it you know newsletter [TS]

  type things that would have an [TS]

  unsubscribe me link at the bottom put [TS]

  them all together in a folder or [TS]

  collapsin or something like that and [TS]

  these bastards it turns out were then [TS]

  selling it they sold so they sold [TS]

  information to Ober that using their [TS]

  their access these people in boxes gave [TS]

  you know uber bought like all of the [TS]

  lyft receipts from these people [TS]

  supposedly anonymized but like I wrote [TS]

  on daring fireball will supposedly you [TS]

  know an iPhone that you do a factory [TS]

  reset on is anonymized to an uber was [TS]

  tracking that I don't can't trust them [TS]

  there's all sorts of ways that they [TS]

  could you know backwards correlate you [TS]

  know even some somewhat anyway I think a [TS]

  lot of people and a lot of people were [TS]

  rightly like whoa I use this unroll me [TS]

  I've there's absolutely no way that I [TS]

  thought that something like my lyft [TS]

  receipt would be sold to uber yeah and [TS]

  it's again it's one of those things [TS]

  where we don't appreciate the value of [TS]

  our data and there's a bunch of apps [TS]

  that you can just give permission like I [TS]

  remember when I signed up for TripIt I [TS]

  would just forward them an email with my [TS]

  travel information they said why are you [TS]

  going to this trouble just give us [TS]

  access to your Gmail and at no and I [TS]

  eventually I stopped using Gmail because [TS]

  there's just so many services that want [TS]

  to tie into it I know that's not exactly [TS]

  an equivalency but I just don't want to [TS]

  provide access to that stuff because [TS]

  there's so much information in there and [TS]

  mine is all just it's a business emails [TS]

  all just a bunch of like travel stuff [TS]

  but that that data is incredibly [TS]

  valuable valuable to me and they're not [TS]

  really they're not really making a fair [TS]

  purchase decision there so the CEO and [TS]

  founder of this company Joe had a and [TS]

  the day after this came out he he he [TS]

  wrote a blog post or he said our users [TS]

  are the heart of our company and service [TS]

  so it was heartbreaking to see that some [TS]

  of our users were upset to learn about [TS]

  how we monetize our free service and [TS]

  while we try our best to be open about [TS]

  our business model recent customer [TS]

  feedback tells me we weren't explicit [TS]

  enough and it really again it if you [TS]

  read their Terms of Service yes it was [TS]

  in their in certain words but people [TS]

  don't read the Terms of Service and [TS]

  everybody knows they don't and there was [TS]

  certainly no bullet point in the main [TS]

  ky you should sign up for this service [TS]

  here's how we make money and I think [TS]

  what it is is that people who haven't [TS]

  just had their because they don't think [TS]

  like this good good honest people who [TS]

  just don't think that someone would do [TS]

  something like this here about the [TS]

  service they know that their inbox every [TS]

  day that you know two thirds of it isn't [TS]

  spam but also isn't like the most [TS]

  important stuff and so something that [TS]

  could help organize that so that the [TS]

  actual like email from colleagues or [TS]

  family or friends is all they're [TS]

  organized sounds like a good deal [TS]

  signs up for it and even if you say well [TS]

  you know you're giving them access to [TS]

  your email they might think ah you know [TS]

  I don't really care there's nothing [TS]

  there's nothing in there that I care [TS]

  about but then later on you tell them [TS]

  you know I know exactly what you bought [TS]

  your husband for Father's Day last year [TS]

  why yeah yeah you bought them this and [TS]

  because we have your email and it's like [TS]

  all of a sudden you tell them an example [TS]

  like that or you tell them yeah yeah [TS]

  they you know you know those four times [TS]

  you got a lift yeah that we sent those [TS]

  the uber well they knew when you were [TS]

  out of that we knew you were traveling [TS]

  you were out of the house nobody was at [TS]

  your home I mean it's and this is not [TS]

  new I remember 10 years ago 15 years ago [TS]

  for example if you go to 7-eleven and [TS]

  buy a coke coke has no idea you bought [TS]

  it but 7-eleven does and they'll sell [TS]

  that information back to coke but [TS]

  they'll also sell to Pepsi for [TS]

  competitive analysis and to like Lay's [TS]

  potato chips so they can say we want to [TS]

  be positioned next to coke on the on the [TS]

  shelf not next to Pepsi and you think [TS]

  that it's anonymous but it's not because [TS]

  they could figure out based on one [TS]

  unique identifier one phone number one [TS]

  time or one email address or something [TS]

  that you were the person buying the [TS]

  diapers and the beer you know that that [TS]

  supermarket that day anyway like I wrote [TS]

  about this give me a fucking break that [TS]

  they're heartbroken that their users [TS]

  upset they're not upstate new their [TS]

  users would be upset which is why they [TS]

  hid exactly what they're doing in the [TS]

  small print of the Terms of Service [TS]

  they're upset because there were [TS]

  suddenly the focus of a massive [TS]

  spotlight of a story that every [TS]

  reasonable person would say wow that is [TS]

  outrageous and his offensive event I [TS]

  wouldn't use that service which was [TS]

  obviously going to hurt their brand and [TS]

  make people I I never even heard of this [TS]

  unroll me before so the first time I [TS]

  heard of it was in the context of don't [TS]

  sign up for this thing yeah or I know [TS]

  people who use it and they were they [TS]

  were shocked right like like if you [TS]

  think in the back of your mind that [TS]

  signing up for a free service that can [TS]

  read and index all of your email is a [TS]

  bad idea [TS]

  guess what it is heartbroken they got [TS]

  caught I think he said that well right [TS]

  right and it you know there was somebody [TS]

  on on Hacker News who posted that he [TS]

  worked for a company that was thinking [TS]

  about acquiring them and when they did [TS]

  their due diligence that unroll me was [TS]

  literally keeping an archive of every [TS]

  single email of every single email that [TS]

  all their customers ever got since they [TS]

  signed up for the service yeah [TS]

  and that they were sort of served in a [TS]

  scary fashion in Amazon AWS buckets yeah [TS]

  and I mean that's part of the problem [TS]

  here is those buckets could be hacked it [TS]

  could be an employee decides to abuse [TS]

  the information contained in there when [TS]

  there's extra copies of your stuff [TS]

  hanging around you no longer have [TS]

  control over that information yeah what [TS]

  else we have I got I got this Hulu live [TS]

  had they've shipped a new live TV thing [TS]

  a $40 a month like cable cutter package [TS]

  do you see this just came out today I [TS]

  did I'm jealous there's all these great [TS]

  services in the US I just simply don't [TS]

  have access to it and you guys have none [TS]

  of that [TS]

  in Canada no like where we allow our [TS]

  telcos to own our broadcasters so we [TS]

  have Bell and Rogers who owned those [TS]

  things and they don't wanna give it to [TS]

  us so I I looked into this recently [TS]

  because I had to switch [TS]

  edit we moved so I had to get new cable [TS]

  service and Internet service and stuff [TS]

  and at first because we were a TiVo [TS]

  family we've always been a TiVo family [TS]

  and I couldn't get and this always [TS]

  happens this is happening 10 years every [TS]

  time I've tried to say changing or [TS]

  getting a new TiVo or something like [TS]

  that the cable card thing doesn't work [TS]

  there's like a card and and it's I guess [TS]

  the idea is that that they try to make [TS]

  this super secure it's the way that they [TS]

  can get the security of the cable signal [TS]

  on a device they don't own and part of [TS]

  it I think is just that they want you to [TS]

  buy their stupid box they have their box [TS]

  I don't want their box I want TiVo but [TS]

  we had a hassle getting our TiVo working [TS]

  and so I I looked into these services [TS]

  for the first time seriously because I [TS]

  don't watch a lot of TV or cable TV but [TS]

  but my wife does and I looked at like [TS]

  the PlayStation View service and it [TS]

  looks great it's it I think it's like 30 [TS]

  bucks a month or 40 bucks a month I [TS]

  don't know but it's it's a reasonable [TS]

  price compared to cable and I looked at [TS]

  the list of channels they had [TS]

  and it's I couldn't find any channels [TS]

  missing that I ever watch and I asked [TS]

  Amy to look and she you know as far as [TS]

  she could tell they had all the channels [TS]

  that she watches they had some it varies [TS]

  by City here in the US but like it in [TS]

  Philadelphia [TS]

  you get ABC all the major networks not [TS]

  just the cable networks you get the [TS]

  broadcast networks apparently in some [TS]

  cities there's the play station for you [TS]

  to missus on them but it like it I [TS]

  honestly have just because I don't watch [TS]

  a lot of TV and I'm happy with the TiVo [TS]

  and for what I do watch and what I when [TS]

  I watched on my TV I'm using Apple TV [TS]

  usually um it just hadn't been paying [TS]

  attention I know the phrase cable [TS]

  cutting I know what it means but I [TS]

  wasn't aware that when you sign up for [TS]

  something like this just how much it's [TS]

  it's equivalent to having cable TV in [TS]

  terms of what you get per month you know [TS]

  that it's the same channels and content [TS]

  it's just delivered in a different [TS]

  fashion and so Hulu's getting into it [TS]

  now there but it's weird like Hulu like [TS]

  one of the network's that they don't get [TS]

  is AMC and there's a couple of good [TS]

  shows on AMC and I don't understand you [TS]

  know what the what how that you know [TS]

  obviously I guess that's all [TS]

  negotiations but somehow Hulu doesn't [TS]

  have AMC and my question for you is [TS]

  where's Apple in this because I feel [TS]

  like like this PlayStation View thing is [TS]

  so much exactly like what we've been [TS]

  hearing Apple might do at what the heck [TS]

  do you think is going on yeah and it's [TS]

  especially frustrating because one of [TS]

  the reasons that we kept hearing that [TS]

  the Apple TV who didn't launch earlier [TS]

  is that they were working on these [TS]

  over-the-top services or originally an [TS]

  Apple video version of what Apple music [TS]

  was where you'd pay one price $30 and [TS]

  you have access to all the major [TS]

  channels and then the negotiations broke [TS]

  down and then we heard them again they [TS]

  become like a set-top box sort of thing [TS]

  and those broke down and it sort of [TS]

  reminds me of music when it went DRM [TS]

  free they just didn't give it to Apple [TS]

  it was DRM free on Amazon mp3 first and [TS]

  they wanted to break apples hold on the [TS]

  music industry and that was one of the [TS]

  levers they tried to pull and then [TS]

  eventually it broke down and Apple got [TS]

  and DRM free mp3 music like everybody [TS]

  else and I wonder if there's still this [TS]

  sort of feeling in the entertainment [TS]

  industry that Apple destroyed their [TS]

  music business and they'll be damned if [TS]

  they let Apple [TS]

  destroy their video business and it ends [TS]

  up being not an advantage to Apple that [TS]

  they did iTunes they did Apple music but [TS]

  a disadvantage and now it's these [TS]

  companies are more reticent to give up [TS]

  all this product and you want to make [TS]

  sure they see the market with a lot of [TS]

  active competitors before they agree to [TS]

  terms with Apple yeah I think that that [TS]

  might be it I really do that Apple is [TS]

  having a much harder time negotiating [TS]

  just because [TS]

  just because [TS]

  is exactly what you said and as nothing [TS]

  really to do about dollar amounts but [TS]

  just sort of a vague notion that the [TS]

  entertainment industry feels like Apple [TS]

  picked their pocket last time yeah even [TS]

  though I don't think there's any aspect [TS]

  of it that wasn't above the board I just [TS]

  think that they I think basically they [TS]

  thought when they first did you know [TS]

  allowed Apple to create the iTunes Store [TS]

  that Apple has had this reputation as a [TS]

  niche player yes and you know the iPod [TS]

  at the time was a Mac only device and so [TS]

  it limited you know even if it was [TS]

  wildly successful among the all the [TS]

  people who could get an iPod got an iPod [TS]

  it still wasn't that big of a market [TS]

  because it would only be one-to-one with [TS]

  the number of people who have a Mac and [TS]

  that they just never foresaw that Apple [TS]

  you know and you know even people who [TS]

  don't pay close attention to the [TS]

  computer industry had the basic rough [TS]

  outline of a sketch where Apple was this [TS]

  little tiny California company that was [TS]

  like a ninety nine to one dwarf compared [TS]

  to Microsoft and Windows and PCs no I [TS]

  think that's it entirely and there was [TS]

  that famous quote and I know you [TS]

  reference this recently in the Netflix [TS]

  article where Steve Jobs said your [TS]

  competition is free and he needs piracy [TS]

  and it's theft and it was Napster and we [TS]

  just saw that's with Netflix we're [TS]

  orange is the new black was essentially [TS]

  stolen and held for ransom but the the [TS]

  privacy like the piracy rates for [TS]

  Netflix are extremely low because the [TS]

  service is so popular but also so [TS]

  reasonably priced right and so [TS]

  reasonably policed in terms of like [TS]

  sharing you know that your you know your [TS]

  kid goes to college and still has the [TS]

  family Netflix password so what they [TS]

  don't care they don't care if you know [TS]

  your kids going to University of [TS]

  Michigan and your family lives in [TS]

  Philadelphia and obviously you know uh [TS]

  you know that they do the geolocation on [TS]

  IP and they know that they don't care [TS]

  it's like it's you know I'm sure that [TS]

  there's some kick off we're at a certain [TS]

  X number of people using the same [TS]

  Netflix account it automatically [TS]

  triggers something but if that number is [TS]

  reasonable they don't care they fit so [TS]

  reasonably I actually had a family [TS]

  member who was using my account when [TS]

  when they were staying with me and they [TS]

  went got their own place and they you [TS]

  know they used my account for a little [TS]

  while I think a month then they got [TS]

  their own because it was so reasonably [TS]

  priced they just didn't want to be bound [TS]

  to my like they didn't wanna see the [TS]

  same things that I was watching all the [TS]

  time I sorry I just feel like you cannot [TS]

  overstate [TS]

  how important that is to Netflix's [TS]

  runaway success their generosity in [TS]

  terms of or not generosity but relaxed [TS]

  Ness almost like a pragmatism right [TS]

  comparing Comcast with the the Comcast [TS]

  attitude with these cable cards in the [TS]

  TiVo where literally the actual service [TS]

  person came to the house twice and [TS]

  failed to get one to actually work and [TS]

  register they treat you like a criminal [TS]

  not like a customer when I say that they [TS]

  were very nice to me it's just that [TS]

  they've set up the technology the [TS]

  service people were super nice but that [TS]

  the technology is designed from a [TS]

  perspective to be super super [TS]

  persnickety in terms of this and I the [TS]

  only logic behind it is that they're [TS]

  fearful that I'm going to like pop the [TS]

  cable card out of my TiVo and go to your [TS]

  house and put it in your TiVo and watch [TS]

  Game of Thrones one Sunday night for [TS]

  free it you're hooking up to a computer [TS]

  and get their high quality stream of [TS]

  Star Wars I guess on the internet [TS]

  whatever it's crazy but the Netflix [TS]

  style has proven you know in their [TS]

  runaway success in every regard shows [TS]

  it's like iTunes and instead of assuming [TS]

  that you're someone who will wants to [TS]

  rip them off they assume that you're a [TS]

  customer who wants to be good and they [TS]

  give you a product that engenders that [TS]

  right and so it's very interesting to me [TS]

  to see that like the BitTorrent rates [TS]

  for all this stuff has actually gone [TS]

  down yeah and that a lot of what is left [TS]

  it seems to be attributable to content [TS]

  that's not available in certain places [TS]

  so like Game of Thrones in particular is [TS]

  probably I think I don't even think [TS]

  there's a question it's the most pirated [TS]

  you know content on BitTorrent but [TS]

  really travelers because a lot of stuff [TS]

  was stream only for a long time but I [TS]

  dabble with them on a plane a huge part [TS]

  of that though is the parts around the [TS]

  world where Game of Thrones isn't even [TS]

  legally available so it's it's pretty [TS]

  interesting and I do think that there's [TS]

  a huge convenience factor on that I mean [TS]

  part of it for me is that uh I I do III [TS]

  you know I know there's some people who [TS]

  pirate all sorts of stuff and don't [TS]

  think twice about it but I you know when [TS]

  I was younger I did I had you know [TS]

  pirated copies of Photoshop you know [TS]

  when I was in college because what was I [TS]

  gonna do spend $600 for Photoshop no I [TS]

  mean but I'd stop pirating stuff as soon [TS]

  as I could afford to buy stuff you know [TS]

  just because I knew it was wrong [TS]

  you know I don't know and so there's a [TS]

  honestly I'm not trying to make anybody [TS]

  feel bad but I do foul and I create and [TS]

  you know partly unbiased I create [TS]

  content I happen to give my stuff away [TS]

  but in you know in theory I can imagine [TS]

  you know selling it and I would not make [TS]

  me happy if people were bootlegging it [TS]

  but you still want them to go to daring [TS]

  firewall to get it you don't want [TS]

  something else is reproducing your [TS]

  entire website exactly on their website [TS]

  exactly a perfect example right I you [TS]

  know it's so I you know as a content [TS]

  creator I might be more sympathetic but [TS]

  just seems like it's the right thing to [TS]

  do but also even just putting the morals [TS]

  of a behind as a lazy person I the [TS]

  BitTorrent thing just seems like so much [TS]

  work [TS]

  oh my god it's just like I I can be [TS]

  bought all aware and all sorts of things [TS]

  yeah but just in its these crazy file [TS]

  formats and part 1 part 2 part 3 and you [TS]

  got to sketch them together and all at [TS]

  what the hell I just wanted honest to [TS]

  god I really and you know I just want to [TS]

  talk to the microphone and say put the [TS]

  Godfather Part 2 on yes I really do and [TS]

  did yeah spins for a little bit and then [TS]

  I hit a button and it starts playing [TS]

  yeah no it's totally so I can't do it [TS]

  alright anything else you wanted to talk [TS]

  together uh no I mean I think we hit on [TS]

  all the major points now that was that [TS]

  that minor flare up again in Apple's [TS]

  role in App Store and and indie apps but [TS]

  that's what was a new argument well [TS]

  there Apple put out there their job [TS]

  creation and they often tout how many [TS]

  iOS developers they've empowered to this [TS]

  so Mac again will put up a post thing [TS]

  that Apple you know and he was he also [TS]

  mentioned consumers and developers and [TS]

  everything once again but the App Store [TS]

  was responsible for devaluating software [TS]

  yeah I saw that and I was nodding my [TS]

  head the whole time but I didn't see [TS]

  anything as new and I don't know I mean [TS]

  there is something to be said there and [TS]

  I sort of agree with it I don't know [TS]

  though that anything has actually [TS]

  changed in that regard so I wrote about [TS]

  it earlier today because I sort of I [TS]

  talked to a lot of our developer friends [TS]

  and a lot of people you know who are [TS]

  involved in the industry and there's [TS]

  sort of this consensus that and I think [TS]

  this is true that it sort of hit a [TS]

  traditional software developers hard [TS]

  because they thought that they were the [TS]

  new thing but they turn out to be [TS]

  tradish [TS]

  in every sense of the word and that's [TS]

  just as open to disruption as any [TS]

  industry and we no longer live in an age [TS]

  where only a few people have computers [TS]

  and you spend $500 for WordStar and [TS]

  there's a box of software on the shelf [TS]

  and all of those things are true we now [TS]

  have almost everyone has access to [TS]

  ubiquitously connected computing devices [TS]

  thanks to the smart phone and what we [TS]

  perceive of as apps is incredibly [TS]