The Talk Show

186: ‘Good News, My House Burned Down’, With Special Guest Matthew Panzarino


  we probably should record it last week [TS]

  but I had stuff so and so here we are [TS]

  one week later after you and I saw each [TS]

  other in cupertino for a mysterious I [TS]

  think it was billed to me as a Mac round [TS]

  table how was it built to you in advance [TS]

  of our meeting last week yeah but the [TS]

  feature the mac or whatever yeah so I [TS]

  went into it with a 50 50 50 in my head [TS]

  whether this was going to be that's all [TS]

  I knew was going to be about the mac i [TS]

  was going to be a roundtable discussion [TS]

  with a couple of executives and a [TS]

  handful of members of the media um and i [TS]

  went into it thinking well this has got [TS]

  to be about the mac pro because it's [TS]

  it's not an event it's certain of the [TS]

  opposite of events very small run its [TS]

  end the matter how can they have [TS]

  something about the mac and not address [TS]

  the elephant in a room that was the [TS]

  thousand and some day old mac pro so I [TS]

  went into it thinking fifty-fifty this [TS]

  is either going to be good news about [TS]

  the mac pro or bad news about the mac [TS]

  pro like it right we're done with the [TS]

  mac pro or we're not done with the mac [TS]

  pro but we can't show it yet and here's [TS]

  why well what were you thinking yeah you [TS]

  probably you're smarter than me I don't [TS]

  know I didn't I didn't really connect it [TS]

  directly to the mac pro although in you [TS]

  know in hindsight it seems fairly [TS]

  reasonable to do that I mean I guess I [TS]

  did a little bit you know obviously the [TS]

  mac pro is sort of the elephant in the [TS]

  room and a lot of ways for Apple and the [TS]

  mac in the sweep of the mac universe but [TS]

  i think it's definitely it was [TS]

  definitely an opportunity to say um you [TS]

  know hey here's some things were [TS]

  thinking about about the mac but i mean [TS]

  at all as you probably picked up on it [TS]

  was very odd because you know very [TS]

  rarely as a brain knows does Apple [TS]

  actually say hey we're going to talk [TS]

  about future things you know so that [TS]

  aspect of it was confusing to me and my [TS]

  only my only inkling about that was like [TS]

  oh they need to set something up you [TS]

  know right uh well my thinking was that [TS]

  could be that that would that would be [TS]

  very similar to how they would announce [TS]

  the end of life of the mac pro if that [TS]

  had been their decision that they're not [TS]

  going to hold an product announcement [TS]

  event for a product its end of life [TS]

  right and I feel like even if the answer [TS]

  was let's just make pro quality imax [TS]

  when they unveil them on stage they're [TS]

  not going to want to sully that on stage [TS]

  by saying oh and remember the mac pro [TS]

  that's we don't need that anymore right [TS]

  that that they would want to break it in [TS]

  a non keynote type scenario whether it's [TS]

  you know somebody in particular gets an [TS]

  exclusive or a handful of people getting [TS]

  exclusive and get a chance to ask [TS]

  questions about it I think it would have [TS]

  been very similar if that had been their [TS]

  decision and and I think that you know [TS]

  obviously the reason why they did you [TS]

  know that wasn't the news the news in [TS]

  fact is that they are hard at work on an [TS]

  all new mac pro but because they're so [TS]

  far away from shipping it which we we [TS]

  can get into next that they felt like [TS]

  they had to say something they had to [TS]

  they could not just wait and they wanted [TS]

  to I think combined with the fact that [TS]

  they wanted to release speed bumps or [TS]

  price drops whatever you want to call [TS]

  what it is they've done with the current [TS]

  mac pro last week where they at the same [TS]

  price levels they've they've gone from [TS]

  you know the entry level is no longer [TS]

  for core at six core and the mid-level [TS]

  one is no longer six core it's eight [TS]

  core or something like that if that's [TS]

  all they did is just update the store [TS]

  and not say anything about the future [TS]

  all right people would have lost their [TS]

  lost their damn minds rightly so people [TS]

  would have lost their minds rightly so [TS]

  because it wouldn't have made any sense [TS]

  that at that Apple was pretending that [TS]

  this was normal right it's one of the [TS]

  scenarios where context free you know [TS]

  update would have caused many many more [TS]

  problems than it you know solved I guess [TS]

  is the word right yeah and I I think [TS]

  that that's unusual an unusual position [TS]

  for them to be in to feel [TS]

  strongly enough about you know the [TS]

  future of a particular category for them [TS]

  to set it up or tee it up in that way [TS]

  because a lot of times they just sort of [TS]

  take their lumps yeah you know they'll [TS]

  just they'll just do it and people will [TS]

  misconstrue it or whatever and then [TS]

  they'll come out with the thing that [TS]

  they would they were teeing up and then [TS]

  either people will like it at they won't [TS]

  you know but in this case I guess they [TS]

  felt strongly enough about how long it [TS]

  had been or how you know how much [TS]

  culpability they felt I guess you know [TS]

  in how the thing played out that they [TS]

  felt that they needed to contextualize [TS]

  it I feel like a week later I feel like [TS]

  it there is no simple answer I feel like [TS]

  part of it in terms of you know I think [TS]

  you you and you asked the question and [TS]

  you preface it with I don't want to get [TS]

  too personal but the gist of the [TS]

  question was when the hell's always [TS]

  means that somebody's about to get [TS]

  personal right when did you guys realize [TS]

  you've done fucked up I mean that's not [TS]

  what you said but we so that for [TS]

  everybody doesn't have it in top of our [TS]

  minds it was it was nine of us at the [TS]

  table it was it was representing Apple [TS]

  was Phil Schiller Craig federighi [TS]

  talking software and John turness ter [TS]

  and us who was a vice president of [TS]

  hardware and and as it was described to [TS]

  us at the beginning of the meeting on [TS]

  his plate our iPad pro and Mac Pro and [TS]

  maybe macbook pro I forget what they [TS]

  said they did but but I know iPad pro [TS]

  and a couple of others and I think [TS]

  honestly it was you know had very good [TS]

  things to say at the round table but I [TS]

  just talking to a couple of other people [TS]

  that Apple in the last week after this [TS]

  came out it sounds to me like he's [TS]

  turness is a real up-and-comer at the [TS]

  company like I don't think it's the last [TS]

  time that we are going to hear from him [TS]

  in a some sort of you know publicity [TS]

  facing right of event it seems to me [TS]

  like he's a real up-and-comer and the [TS]

  fact that he's been tasked with all [TS]

  right you're right going to run point on [TS]

  Hardware on this new mac pro [TS]

  is a sign of that and I think a good [TS]

  sign I think people people who are [TS]

  hoping that this Mac Pro is everything [TS]

  Mac Pro users have been hoping for I [TS]

  think the fact that John turness is in [TS]

  charge of it is a very good sign and [TS]

  then on the press side it was me and you [TS]

  you know Nina freed who was recently a [TS]

  recode but is now at a new site called [TS]

  axios for those of you who don't follow [TS]

  the comings and goings of the press very [TS]

  closely John Pat's Kowski also recently [TS]

  have recode but now at BuzzFeed and last [TS]

  but not least lance ulanoff who was [TS]

  there from mashable so former recode [TS]

  writers were well represented nobody [TS]

  from recode was there at the moment it [TS]

  was a large category percentage wise yes [TS]

  the it of these before he present 40 [TS]

  resented the press attendees were [TS]

  formerly of recode and then last but not [TS]

  least or maybe possibly least was was [TS]

  Bill Evans from Apple PR was at the [TS]

  table but it's his Apple pr's wanti was [TS]

  more or less there to play defense and [TS]

  and pretty much just run the clock and [TS]

  didn't ready mmm so I I I thought that [TS]

  the we all tried to ask I i would say [TS]

  everybody except patch kowski who only [TS]

  popped piped in at the end with a very [TS]

  well time question about the mac mini [TS]

  everybody tried to ask a when did you [TS]

  guys figure out that you had a real [TS]

  problem on your hands with the design of [TS]

  the 2013 trashcan mac and be when did [TS]

  you guys start on this project of a new [TS]

  mac you know rethought from the ground [TS]

  up mac pro em and apple does not like to [TS]

  talk about timelines I mean that's I [TS]

  mean they don't like to talk about [TS]

  future stuff they don't like to talk [TS]

  about all sorts of things but they do [TS]

  not like to talk about when in the past [TS]

  they made decisions and how long things [TS]

  took it is more than almost more than [TS]

  anything else they don't like to like [TS]

  once a design of an erotic comes out [TS]

  they will talk of you know Johnny I've [TS]

  will talk at length openly and honestly [TS]

  and in his little [TS]

  narrated videos about why something is [TS]

  the way it is um they won't tell you in [TS]

  advance but once it's out they'll say [TS]

  here's why we have these gently sloped [TS]

  corners here or or whatever but in terms [TS]

  of how long they've been working on [TS]

  blank they just it is that's like the [TS]

  holiest of Holies the secret of Secrets [TS]

  and they you know I think they view that [TS]

  as their as as part of their IP almost [TS]

  because part of their process and so [TS]

  they view that those timelines and the [TS]

  how long it takes things to get things [TS]

  right or you know what abortive attempts [TS]

  they had at a particular thing or [TS]

  whatever before they settled on the [TS]

  right path they view that all is like a [TS]

  protected category of information that's [TS]

  about their process that's part of their [TS]

  secret their special sauce right um and [TS]

  so but there were little dribs and drabs [TS]

  that you going over it especially after [TS]

  the you know writing my piece all night [TS]

  long and then and then reading everybody [TS]

  else is the next day and then Gavin a [TS]

  day to sort of breathe and then rethink [TS]

  it all and look at the transcript again [TS]

  um I think that the most telling remark [TS]

  was federighi saying that they had [TS]

  painted themselves into a thermal corner [TS]

  and and and combined with his saying [TS]

  that they went through like the state's [TS]

  you know is it said in a jovial fashion [TS]

  and to get a laugh that they went [TS]

  through the stages of grief or something [TS]

  like that right on which to me reading [TS]

  between the lines says that they did try [TS]

  to update the mac pro at least several [TS]

  times in in between 2013 and the point [TS]

  where they said okay we got to give up [TS]

  on this and it seemed like by ant you [TS]

  know by trying to answer customers [TS]

  requests for what they wanted from a [TS]

  newer mac pro it was mostly about more [TS]

  powerful GPUs but more powerful GPUs [TS]

  threw off the thermal balance of the mac [TS]

  pro as we know it mm-hmm and that there [TS]

  were you know and so I who knows I'm [TS]

  guessing at least at least two years was [TS]

  spent on [TS]

  some degree trying to update and get [TS]

  more powerful GPUs into that that [TS]

  configuration and at some point they [TS]

  gave up mm-hmm what do you what was your [TS]

  take on that yeah i mean i mean that's [TS]

  two different questions right the [TS]

  timeline is one question you know how [TS]

  how long do you think it took them and [TS]

  then the other question is did they [TS]

  actually make attempts at it or did they [TS]

  go hey you know we really there's [TS]

  nothing really we can do here because [TS]

  they just knew from all of the from the [TS]

  building of the thing in the first place [TS]

  they built it specifically to take [TS]

  advantage of this split or balanced GPU [TS]

  scenario and you know shoving one hot [TS]

  GPU and it was never going to work I [TS]

  don't know you know I don't know how [TS]

  much modeling or prototyping or theory [TS]

  you know work they did on saying what if [TS]

  we jammed in nvidia 1080 yet you know I [TS]

  in here TI in here and and said can we [TS]

  get this to run in here you know in this [TS]

  shell with proper thermal properties or [TS]

  whatever I don't know how far along that [TS]

  road they went or did they just say well [TS]

  this is not the purpose we built it for [TS]

  it all so can we get two GPUs in here [TS]

  that will work together in such a way to [TS]

  where it would provide a significant [TS]

  value to our customers and then they get [TS]

  they said no you know all we can do is [TS]

  give it a bump so that people on this [TS]

  current gen can just roll with it until [TS]

  we get out what's due um I don't know [TS]

  you know I think it's it's hard it's [TS]

  harder for me to say that they went in [TS]

  and built whole new units in this case [TS]

  then if they were working on a new [TS]

  product which they wouldn't undoubtedly [TS]

  do you know they'll build fully full [TS]

  till all produced you know devices if [TS]

  they feel that they need to to figure [TS]

  out whether it works or not when they're [TS]

  creating a new product on something like [TS]

  this I guess maybe I guess maybe they [TS]

  did they would you know I have no [TS]

  information I'm just trying to like [TS]

  divine from what I know about the [TS]

  process that they go through but it [TS]

  seems like it seems like it's [TS]

  possibility one thing we don't have to [TS]

  speculate on I mean this is just a fact [TS]

  it's obvious just by studying the device [TS]

  and it's also obvious just [TS]

  listening to the way Apple described it [TS]

  in 2013 when it when it was announced is [TS]

  that the trashcan mac pro from 2013 was [TS]

  a bet on multi-threaded GPUs as the [TS]

  future of GPU power and and they had a [TS]

  software a story to tell about it I [TS]

  think you know without getting too [TS]

  complicated i think it was mostly sort [TS]

  of an open CL type thing but in the mean [TS]

  time in years since apple has sort of [TS]

  stepped away from open CL and i think [TS]

  the bigger story isn't even really [TS]

  Apple's own decisions on software but [TS]

  more just where did the industry go and [TS]

  in the pro market it's not so dependent [TS]

  on or defined by Apple in terms of how [TS]

  should you make software for the mac pro [TS]

  but more this is how industry standard [TS]

  powerful GPU hogging apps are written [TS]

  you know things like video editing and [TS]

  3d which a lot of it is cross-platform [TS]

  probably most of it is cross-platform [TS]

  and it's the way that that's gone in the [TS]

  four years since we first saw this mac [TS]

  pro it's gotten ever more dependent on [TS]

  super powerful single GPUs which is that [TS]

  the opposite of where the mac pro and i [TS]

  think in theory in theory the mac pro [TS]

  could have been the future of pro [TS]

  computing the sort of throwing lots of [TS]

  GPU cores and having software written to [TS]

  take advantage of that but that's just [TS]

  not where the industry went and with the [TS]

  software that is ever more dependent on [TS]

  just single threaded GPU performance the [TS]

  mac pro's just did it just wasn't apt at [TS]

  all you know what i keep going back to [TS]

  is this so I you know I grew up building [TS]

  computers i guess a lot of lot of folks [TS]

  who are probably listen to this did you [TS]

  know or group at least very interested [TS]

  in how they were put together and i am [TS]

  feeling I you know my first computer is [TS]

  like an Amiga that I pieced together out [TS]

  of you know rendo parts [TS]

  from a friend's stores of garbage cause [TS]

  his dad worked for a pacific bell and [TS]

  then so on and so forth spiraled [TS]

  outwards from there to pcs and you know [TS]

  x86 machines and you know on on through [TS]

  the windows trainer das train and then [TS]

  windows train and all that simply [TS]

  because I it was the thing that I could [TS]

  afford and I could put together myself [TS]

  somewhere long lane along the line there [TS]

  I developed like this parallel track [TS]

  with starting with the performer line [TS]

  and going you know up through there [TS]

  where I always had a Mac in the house as [TS]

  well and then my mom would use it i [TS]

  would use it for graphic design and like [TS]

  eventually photoshop stuff once they [TS]

  became more powerful and and you know [TS]

  variety of other things but i always had [TS]

  like this parallel track of computing [TS]

  but i spent the majority of my time on [TS]

  pcs simply because they were great for [TS]

  gaming and i was just a you know massive [TS]

  gamer and you know still him to a degree [TS]

  but the platform itself was obviously [TS]

  you know very much pushed forward by [TS]

  gamers you know there were other [TS]

  industries that were responsible for [TS]

  pushing certain components of the [TS]

  computer you know the cpu or the GPU or [TS]

  whatever forward depending on their [TS]

  needs their specific needs obviously you [TS]

  know data storage is very much like an [TS]

  enterprise thing and you know so on and [TS]

  so forth but the the GPU and cpu were [TS]

  pushed very hard for a lot of years by [TS]

  gaming and still are you know i mean [TS]

  obviously GP user where they are because [TS]

  of gamers they're not there because of [TS]

  you know true academics that some tina [TS]

  howe stage do need those but only [TS]

  because it was there it was sort of like [TS]

  a chicken egg thing and they it's that [TS]

  academics use heavily you know GPU [TS]

  centric computing platforms and things [TS]

  now because they can and they're the but [TS]

  the gps are there because the gamers [TS]

  wanted them and the game companies [TS]

  pushed them hard i mean i remember [TS]

  playing games that they said hey this [TS]

  game looks this good this year but it'll [TS]

  look even better next year right we've [TS]

  already programmed in you know the Lord [TS]

  the higher high resolution textures and [TS]

  so on and so forth that we in better [TS]

  physics engines that we know will only [TS]

  your [TS]

  will only support next year I was a [TS]

  constant thing I never much in forward I [TS]

  was never much of a gamer but I when I [TS]

  was you know 20 years ago I was much [TS]

  closer to a gamer than I am now and I [TS]

  remember the even on the Mac that was [TS]

  true that uh mm-hmm you know the [TS]

  marathon was the big game that's right [TS]

  the right yeah bungee the prick you know [TS]

  bungees wasn't their first game but it [TS]

  was the first real smash hit and sort of [TS]

  a predecessor to what's the game on xbox [TS]

  halo halo marathon was huge and and it [TS]

  was networked so we could play it [TS]

  against each other yeah love that game [TS]

  you had to be on a local talk network [TS]

  though you couldn't this is how old I am [TS]

  you could play over the Internet I don't [TS]

  know is that so yeah we played we played [TS]

  that and then we played doom locally and [TS]

  do dickham 3d all this stuff Mimi I mean [TS]

  you get that and that's what drove it [TS]

  you know what was that's what was [TS]

  amazing what was amazing though is that [TS]

  we'd get a new computer at the student [TS]

  newspaper would you know get a new [TS]

  quadra or something and all of a sudden [TS]

  marathon ran way better and it was like [TS]

  whoa I remember to a lot of times to it [TS]

  was framerate right like you could yeah [TS]

  and and certain games had settings where [TS]

  you could optimize for frame rate or [TS]

  optimized for graphics but you could get [TS]

  the girl you could get the good graphics [TS]

  but you wouldn't get a great frame rate [TS]

  and then all of a sudden you get a new [TS]

  computer and you get it all um every [TS]

  night in the right dark forces and [TS]

  everything was all smooth all of a [TS]

  sudden right now right yeah yeah it's [TS]

  right everything right that's what I [TS]

  mean that's definitely you know the [TS]

  money comes from gamers that's that's [TS]

  what's driving the industry to keep [TS]

  riping the billions of dollars into [TS]

  research into ever more powerful GPUs [TS]

  and then like you said like things like [TS]

  academics who are really just running [TS]

  math just math or data analysis it [TS]

  really aren't even pushing pixels to a [TS]

  screen they're literally just chewing [TS]

  through mounds and mounds of [TS]

  quote-unquote big data but you can do it [TS]

  where the algorithms run faster on the [TS]

  GPU than a cpu and they're taking [TS]

  advantage of technology that was [TS]

  developed for games and and the mac pro [TS]

  just was it just was not where the [TS]

  industry was headed and no matter i mean [TS]

  you know gamer ever looked at the mac [TS]

  pro and thought oh this is interesting [TS]

  and heck they they barely looked at [TS]

  the previous generation of Mac Pro's [TS]

  that way because they knew that they [TS]

  would be upgrading their GPU within six [TS]

  to nine months to 12 months right and [TS]

  that they would be pushing you know [TS]

  looking for that and they didn't have [TS]

  the confidence that AMD and NVIDIA would [TS]

  consistently release that highest you [TS]

  know highest performance graphics card [TS]

  for the the mac pro in that in that [TS]

  original configuration much less the new [TS]

  one obviously where Apple's the one who [TS]

  controls that yeah so what occurs to me [TS]

  and looking at this scenario and I mean [TS]

  it's not just in last week but I think [TS]

  having learned now what we now know I [TS]

  think it's almost certain is that [TS]

  there's at least a little bit of hubris [TS]

  here in the design of the 2013 Mac Pro [TS]

  that I think is fueled by the iphone and [TS]

  ipad where with the iPhone Apple the [TS]

  iphone market in and of itself is so big [TS]

  and so lucrative and that Apple can [TS]

  define the computer architecture of the [TS]

  iphone and can define the api's for [TS]

  creating software for it and runs the [TS]

  app store and can you know it it not [TS]

  really adhere to you know define which [TS]

  api's you use but sort of make sure that [TS]

  your software is is you know it within [TS]

  the lines of how they want software [TS]

  written um but primarily just by being [TS]

  able to define the hardware they can [TS]

  define if you want your software to run [TS]

  well you're going to have to do it the [TS]

  way we envision you doing it whether you [TS]

  know it's not even so much the app store [TS]

  forget the app store part it's just [TS]

  you've got to take advantage of the way [TS]

  the iphone is architected and the iphone [TS]

  is so big that developers will do it i [TS]

  mean literally they even you know and [TS]

  this is less of a big deal today or eat [TS]

  more easily overlooked because it's [TS]

  always been the case but in the early [TS]

  years of the iphone it was a big deal [TS]

  where an awful lot of developers were [TS]

  like well i want we want our software on [TS]

  the iphone we're buying their first max [TS]

  ever because you had to run xcode to [TS]

  write you still have to run xcode to [TS]

  write iphone software and xcode only [TS]

  runs on a mac and so it was literally [TS]

  developers were buying an [TS]

  Alton all new machine just to do it [TS]

  whereas in the pro high performance [TS]

  computing industry apple doesn't have [TS]

  that sort of dominant role they can't [TS]

  redefine or not it maybe not redefine [TS]

  it's too strong a word but they can't [TS]

  steer they couldn't push the industry to [TS]

  switch to a multi-threaded GPU model [TS]

  when everybody else you know more or [TS]

  less what Apple needed to do was be [TS]

  humble about it and go with the flow of [TS]

  the industry which is big honkin single [TS]

  GPUs mmhmm yeah I mean there's two so [TS]

  twice if he was twice and don't don't at [TS]

  me or whatever but I think twice during [TS]

  the interview they they said something [TS]

  about you know we want to make sure that [TS]

  whatever we do is new and innovative and [TS]

  I looked at I thought about that and I [TS]

  was thinking about that during you know [TS]

  when they said it because they said it [TS]

  again when they said it again I kind of [TS]

  my ears kind of perked up you know [TS]

  because I think that that is there's two [TS]

  ways to take that statement you could [TS]

  take that statement and say hey I'm [TS]

  doing something new and innovative and [TS]

  you can you could just take it at face [TS]

  value and go you know what great I'm [TS]

  glad someone is right I'm glad somebody [TS]

  cares enough to really push and make [TS]

  sure that they're not obeying accepted [TS]

  norms without questioning them that they [TS]

  are truly pushing boundaries and and [TS]

  questioning all of the underpinnings of [TS]

  computing and making sure that the way [TS]

  things are done is actually the right [TS]

  way and the way they should be done all [TS]

  of that right and you know you can [TS]

  extrapolate keep you can keep going from [TS]

  there all of the things that you would [TS]

  like to say to interpret that in the [TS]

  best light possible and then there's [TS]

  another way to take it which is we are [TS]

  so interested in doing something new and [TS]

  innovative that we overlook at the [TS]

  obvious hurdles because we are so [TS]

  addicted to the slash-and-burn of you [TS]

  know obeying our own recognizance right [TS]

  or relying on our own recognizance to [TS]

  chart the course of computing because if [TS]

  you go hey every phone let's apply this [TS]

  to existing you know what supplies to [TS]

  existing [TS]

  framework of the iphone you look at the [TS]

  iphone you go hey if you just said look [TS]

  guys you can do every other thing but [TS]

  keyboards are great you know keyboards [TS]

  are fantastic they're fun they work fine [TS]

  you know thumbs press keys makes total [TS]

  sense right week work since we were [TS]

  cavemen we've been manipulating things [TS]

  with our opposable thumbs why stop now I [TS]

  mean there's plenty of really great [TS]

  arguments that a lot of people made to [TS]

  themselves and really convince [TS]

  themselves we're right and that's why [TS]

  there was a lot of blowback against the [TS]

  no physical keyboard thing so Apple in [TS]

  that moment you know maybe this is [TS]

  Steve's genius of saying no this is the [TS]

  right way or maybe this is a collective [TS]

  genius which is more likely where Steve [TS]

  acts is the editor for a lot of people's [TS]

  flurry of ideas yeah I think we can make [TS]

  this work and you know it's so so much [TS]

  simpler less moving parts and blah blah [TS]

  blah tons of arguments on the other side [TS]

  right and they made a decision to to [TS]

  slice out a very well-established [TS]

  charted course of having that physical [TS]

  keyboard that was not necessarily evil [TS]

  right there's nothing bad about it it's [TS]

  just did they saw pathways that opened [TS]

  up for themselves if they got rid of it [TS]

  like man then we can manipulate the [TS]

  whole screen the keyboard can go away [TS]

  when you don't need it you know blah [TS]

  blah blah right you know all of the [TS]

  arguments that we all know so well but [TS]

  you look at that and it worked out [TS]

  incredibly well for them and in fact not [TS]

  only was it did it work out well for [TS]

  them it was the right thing to do that's [TS]

  why our phones look the same now right [TS]

  but in this case I think they looked at [TS]

  the problem and said hey this is the way [TS]

  it could go this parallel GPU that [TS]

  splits tasks it can run lower power when [TS]

  it needs to you know it's very you know [TS]

  power conscious which is great for the [TS]

  environment etc etc and there's really [TS]

  no reason that needs to be blowing all [TS]

  this air all over the place all the time [TS]

  and collecting all this unseemly dust [TS]

  and why has nobody ever thought of this [TS]

  and they got so excited about the fact [TS]

  that they could do this thing that they [TS]

  didn't stop and ask themselves well is [TS]

  the simpler straighter you know more [TS]

  common path is it a common path for a [TS]

  reason like do we use metal because [TS]

  metal is good you know or do we use a [TS]

  strong powerful GPU because the industry [TS]

  that we have [TS]

  traditionally not served gaming industry [TS]

  uses it and and that pushes everything [TS]

  forward and we can ride that wave like [TS]

  white why paddle out of the current [TS]

  right and and generate all of the force [TS]

  on your own when you can use additive [TS]

  force on the existing current and go you [TS]

  know what this is fine these this is our [TS]

  limitation that we have to accommodate [TS]

  this graphics card now what does that [TS]

  look like maybe it's a flat slab with [TS]

  almost nothing else to it that's [TS]

  essentially a GPU you know or maybe its [TS]

  external GPUs or whatever but I just [TS]

  think that the like the questions got [TS]

  asked and they applied roughly the same [TS]

  frameworks to it that they did with the [TS]

  iphone and end up with just the wrong [TS]

  answer yeah and I don't know why that is [TS]

  I'm I don't presuppose I'm dumb compared [TS]

  to all these guys they have and girls [TS]

  they have working on these problems so [TS]

  you know I don't pre supposed to know [TS]

  that's just my supposition as to how the [TS]

  argument went down you know and a one [TS]

  factor I guess I knew this but it got [TS]

  reiterated a few times is that the the [TS]

  Mac Pro had a sort of triangular shape [TS]

  in the tube in the middle the hollow [TS]

  Center to GP and a GPS CPU and it's not [TS]

  just that it was three things in the air [TS]

  flowed through the center to cool them [TS]

  but that it was specifically designed [TS]

  that all three sides of that triangle [TS]

  would remain roughly on par with each [TS]

  other in terms of the heat that needed [TS]

  to be dissipated and it wasn't a design [TS]

  that would accommodate one of the three [TS]

  sides getting hotter than the others and [TS]

  that season again with software that [TS]

  more so now than before them this Mac [TS]

  Pro was distributed that in intensive [TS]

  graphics intensive software today is [TS]

  about overloading a single GPU with as [TS]

  much performance as you can get and it [TS]

  just you know so even using this [TS]

  configuration to run software that's [TS]

  meant to run single threaded on a GPU [TS]

  it's just not conducive to that because [TS]

  you can't let one of the GPS get hotter [TS]

  than another and it probably plays into [TS]

  the fact that the mac pro as we know it [TS]

  is sort of notorious for [TS]

  almost like like a European sports car [TS]

  that they they're not the most rugged [TS]

  machines are durable machines in terms [TS]

  of reliability over the years that [TS]

  people who've been pushing these [TS]

  machines there's a lot of people who had [TS]

  you know they seemingly anecdotally at [TS]

  least after going to get GPUs replaced [TS]

  pretty frequently mmm primarily from [TS]

  overheating I mean that's the only way [TS]

  really a computer part wears out or it's [TS]

  part like a GPU could wear out all right [TS]

  let me take a break and we'll come back [TS]

  to this and but let me first thank our [TS]

  first sponsor of this show circle from [TS]

  Disney what is Circle Circle from Disney [TS]

  is a beautiful little device designed [TS]

  for families to manage content and time [TS]

  online for all the devices in your home [TS]

  it pairs with just about any Wi-Fi [TS]

  router and it recognizes every device [TS]

  connected to it tablets PCs smartphones [TS]

  even Chromebooks anything that connects [TS]

  to the Wi-Fi in your house it will [TS]

  recognize it and then parents can set [TS]

  profiles for each member of the family [TS]

  and tailor the individual preferences [TS]

  for each one it's very easy to set up it [TS]

  is exactly what you would think of from [TS]

  something from Disney it is not like [TS]

  setting up something from Cisco where [TS]

  you need a network engineering degree it [TS]

  is very much what you would think Disney [TS]

  would design for non network engineering [TS]

  moms and dads you just download the app [TS]

  choose your network it's that simple you [TS]

  go from there and just tap things on the [TS]

  app what kind of things did let you do [TS]

  it lets you filter content customize [TS]

  what's available and you can set time [TS]

  limits and you can set the time limits [TS]

  on specific things like YouTube [TS]

  minecraft Facebook Netflix and even [TS]

  snapchat kids staying up late on their [TS]

  tablet you can set a bedtime for each [TS]

  kid and their devices families can also [TS]

  see how they spend their time online [TS]

  with their insight to feature it's [TS]

  really great Disney super stoked about [TS]

  this they've just number a couple of new [TS]

  things they just launched a new thing [TS]

  about a month ago it's called circle [TS]

  connections it lets you connect app [TS]

  services and devices like friend of the [TS]

  show automatic you know the car dinkus [TS]

  well now you can hook that up and the [TS]

  family can [TS]

  share stuff like that through the circle [TS]

  Alexa ifttt chore monster and others you [TS]

  can all hook up to your circle it's sort [TS]

  of turning into a platform Disney is [TS]

  very excited about this recently Apple's [TS]

  CFO Luca maestri was held a meeting with [TS]

  the Italian press at the Italian [TS]

  consulate in New York City and he was [TS]

  talking about how his family uses Apple [TS]

  products and devices and he specifically [TS]

  mentioned circle with Disney something [TS]

  that his family uses to manage his [TS]

  family's devices i will put a link to [TS]

  this in the show notes i think you're [TS]

  going to need to translate it from [TS]

  italian but that's okay i'm sure most [TS]

  people listen to the show speak fluent [TS]

  Italian but that's a pretty cool story [TS]

  i'm pretty you don't really hear disney [TS]

  or apple see c-level executives talking [TS]

  up products from other companies all [TS]

  that often so anyway very exciting stuff [TS]

  where do you go to find out more easy go [TS]

  to meet circle m eet circle calm and [TS]

  remember this code the talk show and you [TS]

  will get free shipping and ten dollars [TS]

  off your circle with disney device it's [TS]

  a ninety nine dollar product 89 bucks [TS]

  with the talk show code and circle go [TS]

  which is their service for mobile like a [TS]

  phone like cellular service is nine [TS]

  dollars and ninety-five cents a month [TS]

  for up to 10 devices ios-only but that's [TS]

  probably not a little problem for [TS]

  listeners of the talk show so my thanks [TS]

  to Disney meet circle dot com code the [TS]

  talk show great product so timeline wise [TS]

  more spectators here's my take my take [TS]

  is that in the 20 I mean because one [TS]

  thing a couple people have observed is [TS]

  it's not like this is the first Mac Pro [TS]

  that went a long time between updates [TS]

  the Mac Pro had sort of been on a longer [TS]

  than one year update schedule for a [TS]

  while so the fact that there wasn't an [TS]

  update in 2014 I don't think struck I [TS]

  don't think it really surprised anybody [TS]

  right my guess is sometime around 20 [TS]

  15 2016 is when an update certainly by [TS]

  2016 it was everybody was talking about [TS]

  and certainly Apple was aware of it I [TS]

  think I don't know this I don't have any [TS]

  sort of in you know super sources inside [TS]

  but i think and i don't i don't think [TS]

  anybody surprised by this i I think that [TS]

  as as the round 2015 2016 as it became [TS]

  more obvious that the design of the mac [TS]

  pro was problematic I think there was a [TS]

  sense within Apple that maybe that's [TS]

  okay and maybe macbook pros combined [TS]

  with ever more powerful imax it might be [TS]

  the way future to satisfy the Pro users [TS]

  of the Mac market mm-hmm and I think and [TS]

  I think this came up at our interview [TS]

  last week and I think that they sort of [TS]

  emphasized just what we want a war soon [TS]

  as be what would just what a large [TS]

  percentage of their what they define as [TS]

  Pro users are using macbook pros and [TS]

  imacs and they even mentioned this end [TS]

  if anything this might have been the [TS]

  most surprising part of the meeting is [TS]

  where they mentioned specifically that [TS]

  they have new imacs in the pipeline that [TS]

  are coming slated for some time this [TS]

  year that are including configurations [TS]

  that are that are geared towards pro [TS]

  customers I think that what happened is [TS]

  that it probably at a very high level I [TS]

  mean I'm not naming names I don't know [TS]

  but I think at a pretty high level [TS]

  within the company they talk themselves [TS]

  into believing that the imac including [TS]

  the ever better imax combined with the [TS]

  macbook pros could cover everything they [TS]

  needed to cover and i think at some [TS]

  point recently let's say within the last [TS]

  six months or so maybe a little more [TS]

  they realize no that's that the one [TS]

  percent of mac users who can't be [TS]

  satisfied by an imac need up a real pro [TS]

  computer that's my [TS]

  yeah I mean I think you're I think [TS]

  you're probably right if it sounds that [TS]

  sounds reasonable I I definitely think [TS]

  there was that moment which they alluded [TS]

  to because they said but we realized we [TS]

  needed more that they did feel that a [TS]

  larger and larger segment of the pro [TS]

  market was being served by the 5k screen [TS]

  and computer slept in the back and you [TS]

  know I certainly it's what I've been [TS]

  using for a long time and had a mac pro [TS]

  in years and I only had one briefly and [TS]

  honestly a lot of the times that I ran [TS]

  mac pro level machines on you know with [TS]

  OS 10 running on them I ran hackintosh [TS]

  is for that GPU reason yeah you know and [TS]

  Hagin touches are becoming a much more I [TS]

  don't doubt that Apple sees this all [TS]

  right you know the Diagnostics probably [TS]

  tell them you know general opt-in [TS]

  Diagnostics probably tell them if not [TS]

  pulling the community but there are an [TS]

  increasing number of people running [TS]

  hackintosh a--'s which are you know pc [TS]

  components that have OS 10 driver [TS]

  support or have you know some sort of [TS]

  crib together driver support and that [TS]

  are they're being put together and then [TS]

  you boot OS 10 on them either with the [TS]

  use of a bootloader piece of software or [TS]

  piece of hardware that allows you to [TS]

  boot OS 10 fulo ascendant is thinking [TS]

  that you're running a mac and the [TS]

  advantage that offers is of course you [TS]

  can build according to your precise [TS]

  power needs perhaps even more powerful [TS]

  than is currently on the market which is [TS]

  a situation we're in right now with the [TS]

  mac pro and then of course you can you [TS]

  know you can run windows on a mac but [TS]

  now you can run windows on a more [TS]

  powerful mac that can then run very high [TS]

  performance games or other applications [TS]

  and so you you'll see people like um who [TS]

  was it the recently wrote out a fairly [TS]

  solid you know kind of what it's like to [TS]

  build a hackintosh right now just [TS]

  recently it was was it my grundle I [TS]

  really think it was I think Mike was [TS]

  mentioning was talking about running [TS]

  agata somebody else just wrote a piece [TS]

  that was traded around a lot I mean you [TS]

  know many folks have over the years they [TS]

  build uh people graphics software for [TS]

  the mac [TS]

  and it's not due to my brains blanking [TS]

  I'll turn get back to it if I can but [TS]

  the the gist of it is is like best of [TS]

  both worlds scenario where they they [TS]

  love OS 10 and they just they should are [TS]

  using windows they'd use it when they [TS]

  they need to to to make it through you [TS]

  know or to run software that only runs [TS]

  on Windows AKA you know as Class A games [TS]

  that just don't ship on multiple [TS]

  platforms although steam is making that [TS]

  better to a degree but the OS 10 is just [TS]

  you know the beautiful experience and [TS]

  all that and they can build this really [TS]

  custom experience underneath it and I [TS]

  think that that more people being [TS]

  willing to consider a hackintosh and [TS]

  that the community really looking to [TS]

  those builders to try and tell them [TS]

  exactly what parts to buy and you know [TS]

  exactly how to build in all of that I [TS]

  think that really speaks to this desire [TS]

  to have OS 10 but with a more [TS]

  customizable hardware platform [TS]

  underneath it not just more powerful [TS]

  more with a capital P but also more [TS]

  customizable truly modular you're right [TS]

  the truly modular experience that people [TS]

  haven't had in in many years so even [TS]

  though they appreciate the design and [TS]

  the thoughtfulness that went into the [TS]

  mac pro as it currently exists I think [TS]

  many people feel that those choices [TS]

  being made for them stands out as an [TS]

  even more irritating decision because of [TS]

  the segments that they're going after [TS]

  like how many I Mac users I mean well [TS]

  scratch that they're plenty it like Mac [TS]

  Mac Apple users love to complain because [TS]

  they're so attuned to detail right the [TS]

  company has taught them to be picky [TS]

  about their stuff that's why they're [TS]

  that's the base reason that the Mac [TS]

  community the Apple community is so [TS]

  picky about stuff because they've been [TS]

  trained to care right by a company that [TS]

  ostensibly cares so but scratching that [TS]

  did setting that aside the average Mac [TS]

  user the eighty percent let's call it of [TS]

  the mac users out there who are like hey [TS]

  I just wanna I mean a big computer for [TS]

  my desk and I love apple stuff what do I [TS]

  get that's not a portable oh we buy an [TS]

  imac [TS]

  the vast majority of those are not going [TS]

  crazy about like oh I can't you know [TS]

  change this particular chipset right or [TS]

  whatever like I can't get this network [TS]

  card instead of this network card or [TS]

  whatever but the segment that they did [TS]

  it to was the one that was going to be [TS]

  the most allergic to it in the long run [TS]

  and like that is another thing that was [TS]

  kind of weird to me why you know I [TS]

  wonder if there was I mean I'm sure [TS]

  there was an advocate inside saying this [TS]

  is great but it actually something like [TS]

  the Mac Pro imagine if that was the imac [TS]

  now these days i think the imac is the [TS]

  right choice people just buy one thing [TS]

  and they're done nobody buys you know [TS]

  nobody wants to buy separate monitors [TS]

  they do it because they have to write [TS]

  like the average person so I think the [TS]

  imac is the right configuration I'm not [TS]

  trying to say the mac pro is right for [TS]

  the normal normal person but that [TS]

  segment of the market would have been [TS]

  much more receptive and and welcoming I [TS]

  think of a thing where it's like don't [TS]

  worry about it we thought it all out all [TS]

  right we got we've got the perfect sweet [TS]

  capsule for you that's gonna do amazing [TS]

  things performance wise totally enough [TS]

  for you plot this on your desk and plug [TS]

  it in and enjoy and that segment i think [TS]

  is much more receptive and welcoming of [TS]

  that whereas the pro segment is the [TS]

  opposite the first thing they do is [TS]

  refresh that i fix it basically see how [TS]

  things tear down and they want to know [TS]

  what's in there and all of added they [TS]

  want to be informed consumers and i [TS]

  think that that leads itself to the [TS]

  desire to have choice and all that stuff [TS]

  i don't know it's just the way i see [TS]

  that they just sort of pitched it to the [TS]

  wrong people yeah i think that there's a [TS]

  there's a continuum of everything but [TS]

  there's a continuum of people's price [TS]

  sensitivity but i think that at a [TS]

  certain end if you talk about like [TS]

  college age students who want a mac for [TS]

  gaming and what type or want a computer [TS]

  that can dual boot it but use a mac but [TS]

  have powerful GPU for gaming are going [TS]

  to more willing to spend the time to do [TS]

  the hackintosh and to put up with the [TS]

  incompatibilities and the worries about [TS]

  applying software updates and you know [TS]

  maybe wait until somebody else decides [TS]

  what [TS]

  this graphics card is going to work with [TS]

  the latest version of Sierra and all of [TS]

  that e versus the professional market [TS]

  where price isn't really the issue it's [TS]

  there they're begging Apple to charge [TS]

  them a lot of money for a computer and [TS]

  part of what they're willing to spend [TS]

  money for is that it just works factor [TS]

  of getting a real knack and and the [TS]

  hacking tag like I can see why the [TS]

  hackintosh root is more popular than [TS]

  growing unpopularity given the mac pro [TS]

  stagnation but I think it's a large part [TS]

  of that I mean and clearly like I said [TS]

  it's a continuum and there's obvious [TS]

  exceptions there might be real [TS]

  professional users there certainly are [TS]

  some who are doing it but I think for [TS]

  the most part of a real professional [TS]

  user who might be willing to spend you [TS]

  know ten thousand dollars or fifteen [TS]

  thousand dollars on a workstation isn't [TS]

  going to do it with the unsupported [TS]

  drivers and an unsupported configuration [TS]

  like they're going they're the type of [TS]

  people who are like if I if I can't get [TS]

  hardware from Apple that meets my needs [TS]

  I'd rather switch to windows and get a [TS]

  supported configuration mm-hmm where's [TS]

  the hobby that's totally right the [TS]

  hobbies community as always by [TS]

  definition been self-supporting they [TS]

  don't need support they are their own [TS]

  support yeah and whatever configuration [TS]

  they're coming up with they're getting [TS]

  live essentially live tech support on it [TS]

  from the community that they're in of [TS]

  those similar people that build those [TS]

  things hey is anybody ever come across [TS]

  this problem you know I did it a bunch [TS]

  of times and I was building hackintosh [TS]

  Azure it's like you know cuz I was just [TS]

  too poor to own a really powerful mac [TS]

  and so I would just build out of pc [TS]

  parts and then run OS 10 on it and you [TS]

  know I'm sure Apple's cringing and [TS]

  whatever but you know is what I could [TS]

  afford I think a lot of people start out [TS]

  that way you know those price sensitive [TS]

  people but there are also you know sort [TS]

  of hacker friendly or whatever you want [TS]

  to call it who don't mind instability [TS]

  and thinking around because they just [TS]

  lust after the list and experience and [TS]

  the apple ecosystem and all of that but [TS]

  i think that there's there's like it's [TS]

  sort of like a like an entry point for [TS]

  eventual mac pro owners right and so [TS]

  either sits i know there are other entry [TS]

  points right you you go to a company and [TS]

  you become a designer [TS]

  and all this in the company has a [TS]

  corporate budget and what are you going [TS]

  to buy right you're going to get your [TS]

  mac pro you're going to be a designer [TS]

  capital d and do all your design work [TS]

  and that's great but I think there's a [TS]

  long tail of people out there that are [TS]

  that become pros through alternative [TS]

  pathways don't have a lot of money to [TS]

  spend want to get into the ecosystem [TS]

  because they once again they love the [TS]

  fact that the company prioritizes design [TS]

  and prioritizes care and all of that and [TS]

  their software and they know in the end [TS]

  underneath it you know the hardware that [TS]

  it runs isn't perhaps as carefully [TS]

  picked and chosen as something Apple [TS]

  would do but they can get it to run [TS]

  right it's just a mishmash of junk but [TS]

  it sort of runs and you get it running [TS]

  and you feel good about it and you get [TS]

  hooked on the ecosystem which is why I [TS]

  always thought that like every once in a [TS]

  while Apple will take a stab at like [TS]

  trying to shut down hackintosh projects [TS]

  and things like that and I was always [TS]

  just like let it ride I mean if it [TS]

  becomes like a major component of of [TS]

  your your your business being stolen I [TS]

  guess you got to take some legal and [TS]

  there's also some legal things you have [TS]

  to plant because of trademarks and all [TS]

  that so that you can you can have a [TS]

  future court case against Samsung and [TS]

  say oh yeah we tried to protect it back [TS]

  then even with little people so I get [TS]

  the legal precedent thing but it's also [TS]

  just like let it ride because it's like [TS]

  the low simmering entry point to [TS]

  somebody who eventually once they have [TS]

  the means is like yes build me an [TS]

  amazing mac please apple and I you know [TS]

  powerful mac pro and i will buy it you [TS]

  know now i have the means i'm addicted i [TS]

  want the power but i also want to as 10 [TS]

  and so on you know that's the way this [TS]

  way oh i found that the hackintosh [TS]

  article by the way it was by dan council [TS]

  pasted in laid out 7 i'll send you the [TS]

  link yeah it's a dance den council of [TS]

  real mac um you know remix software [TS]

  makes lots of great lots of great apps [TS]

  this is not an ad etc but um he wrote an [TS]

  article called building a hackintosh pro [TS]

  we had a little earlier back in March [TS]

  but it's you know it's his reasoning was [TS]

  essentially they have an updated the mac [TS]

  pro you know I need a full-size graphics [TS]

  card for the stuff that I want to do and [TS]

  it's not complicated you know it's not [TS]

  like anybody's angry um well I mean I'm [TS]

  sure spooler angry but it's not like [TS]

  anybody's really you know thinkin Apple [TS]

  is is doing things that are our consumer [TS]

  hostile on purpose it's just that there [TS]

  are certain needs and once they have an [TS]

  apple didn't glom onto those needs and [TS]

  wants or sign enough importance to them [TS]

  soon enough to catch themselves so they [TS]

  didn't have this big gap now yeah uh I [TS]

  think you know bottom line I don't [TS]

  really see how this well I'm sure [TS]

  someone at Apple could deny it but I [TS]

  think it seems pretty clear now that at [TS]

  at some point in the last three years or [TS]

  so or maybe starting around three years [TS]

  ago that Apple sort of took its [TS]

  collective eye off the ball on the Mac [TS]

  at least on the hardware I think the [TS]

  software is is going fine i think it I [TS]

  think they're hitting their annual [TS]

  release dates I think that they're solid [TS]

  I think they're doing enough cool new [TS]

  things that are very useful like this [TS]

  the continuity stuff I use every day and [TS]

  I just think like how the hell did I [TS]

  ever go from having these links on my [TS]

  iPhone and then switch to another [TS]

  computer to look at them there before [TS]

  this stuff worked some great features I [TS]

  don't think that they should be [TS]

  radically you know I think that the [TS]

  complaint some people have about the mac [TS]

  is that they haven't done anything [TS]

  that's like a here's the radical new way [TS]

  to use a mac I don't want that I don't I [TS]

  mean obviously if they came up with [TS]

  something that i liked i guess i'd like [TS]

  it but I I kind of feel like they've [TS]

  they've you know that's what new [TS]

  products are for right that's why the [TS]

  ipad is drank product like here's a [TS]

  radical new way to do personal computing [TS]

  on a portable device I still want to do [TS]

  the stuff that the mac is great ad on [TS]

  the mac hardware wise though I think [TS]

  it's hard to deny that they kind of took [TS]

  their eye off the ball and I think part [TS]

  of this sort of let's hit the reset [TS]

  button mindset is that reaction to the [TS]

  macbook pros last fall i think was mixed [TS]

  I don't think it's fair to say it was a [TS]

  poor reaction but I do think it was a [TS]

  mixed reaction and I think that took [TS]

  Apple by surprised I think Apple [TS]

  internally thought they had a smash [TS]

  hit on their hands and was sort of taken [TS]

  aback by the number of people who [TS]

  expressed displeasure at the decisions [TS]

  they made with the macbook pro and [TS]

  during our discussions schiller had [TS]

  during his opening remarks addressed it [TS]

  you know in his usual way where it [TS]

  wasn't quite head-on but it was clear [TS]

  what do you know he mentioned him and [TS]

  said that they're hard at work on you [TS]

  know a next group of macbook pros that [TS]

  would address specifically address some [TS]

  of the complaints professional users had [TS]

  about the current ones mm-hmm although [TS]

  he didn't say any of things of what [TS]

  those are but I would presume where [TS]

  maybe he mentioned Ram did he mention [TS]

  Ram I mean one of the combines people [TS]

  have about them the current macbook pros [TS]

  is that there's still the maximum amount [TS]

  of RAM you can put in them as 16 [TS]

  gigabytes and the reason it's not 32 [TS]

  gigabytes is because Apple is using I I [TS]

  don't don't have to write me to tell me [TS]

  but they're using ddr whatever [TS]

  low-energy RAM and on the current Intel [TS]

  chipsets if you're using the the kind of [TS]

  low-energy battery-saving ram that Apple [TS]

  wants to use to keep battery life good [TS]

  the maximum you can get a 16 so they [TS]

  could in theory have macbook pros that [TS]

  have 32 gigabytes but it would involve a [TS]

  complete riorca texture of which intel [TS]

  chipset they're using and + to ship them [TS]

  last year they would have not been able [TS]

  to use the low-energy RAM and you know [TS]

  we went through this when the macbook [TS]

  pros came out and the answer from the [TS]

  people who are Ram starved in their [TS]

  professional work who really need more [TS]

  than 16 or at least want if not needs [TS]

  more than 16 gigabytes of RAM is I don't [TS]

  care about the low-energy I'll plug the [TS]

  goddamn thing in I I just write 32 [TS]

  gigabytes of RAM which is a completely [TS]

  reasonable trade-off it is completely [TS]

  reasonable for a a Mac user who gets the [TS]

  mac and loves the mac it's not like oh [TS]

  if you were a real mac user you'd see [TS]

  the genius of apples decision in this [TS]

  regard I could totally see how there are [TS]

  totally you know longtime diehard Mac [TS]

  users who get and love the Mac who are [TS]

  willing to say I would rather get eight [TS]

  hours of battery life instead of 10 if i [TS]

  could get 32 [TS]

  bytes of ram in this machine instead of [TS]

  16 totally reasonable I think the number [TS]

  of people who took that stance that took [TS]

  Apple by surprise I mean not it's not [TS]

  that Ram is the only issue you know that [TS]

  the complaint that people have about the [TS]

  macbook pros but it yeah yeah well then [TS]

  so there's two things that I think that [TS]

  are important touch i think the touch [TS]

  thing we should talk about because i [TS]

  think that's a very interesting you [TS]

  mentioned ipad yeah but the other branch [TS]

  of that discussion is you mentioned how [TS]

  many people it took them by surprise you [TS]

  know how to make people to that so it [TS]

  sort of begs the question like why did [TS]

  it take them by surprise you know right [TS]

  like why why did it sneak up on them so [TS]

  to speak well like I said best phrase I [TS]

  can come up with is that they took their [TS]

  eye off the ball a bit and and sort of [TS]

  got a little too insular I mean I think [TS]

  it's often the biggest risk to Apple is [TS]

  that they're so insular as a culture [TS]

  that they they can lose sight even if [TS]

  they think they're keeping track of the [TS]

  community and and they certainly I think [TS]

  they certainly try to but I think that [TS]

  they could talk themselves into just [TS]

  taking their eye off the ball [TS]

  specifically taking their eye off the [TS]

  ball of the needs of larger chunks of [TS]

  their of their users that's what I think [TS]

  they took their eye off the ball on and [TS]

  I think that there are so many things to [TS]

  really love about the new macbook pro [TS]

  that I think they I think that they [TS]

  somehow got caught up loving the things [TS]

  there are to love about them and lost [TS]

  sight of the ways that it was falling [TS]

  short of their profession some of their [TS]

  professionals needs what were you going [TS]

  to say about touch in that regard so the [TS]

  things they mentioned essentially was if [TS]

  you want touch by an iPad and use it [TS]

  together and we're going to work on ways [TS]

  to make those work better take or think [TS]

  about ways to make those work better [TS]

  together or whatever which says to me [TS]

  that they want the not want this is not [TS]

  the primary purpose of it but then iPad [TS]

  pro you know they wanted to act like a [TS]

  cintiq tablet of sorts that connects to [TS]

  a mac pro or imac or whatever in a more [TS]

  seamless fashion which makes a hell of a [TS]

  ton of sense [TS]

  because though the you know the pen [TS]

  tracking and things like that Apple [TS]

  feels superior to things like the [TS]

  surface studio and the even though I [TS]

  mean it's antiques quite obvious you [TS]

  know the the cintiq tablets which are [TS]

  made by Wacom are sort of like the de [TS]

  facto industry standard you know any [TS]

  design of it that earns enough money to [TS]

  spend you know 1,500 2,000 dollars on it [TS]

  is basically they're buying a pc with a [TS]

  touchscreen glued to the front of it and [TS]

  they lay it flat if you're not a [TS]

  designer you know they lay it flat then [TS]

  use the stylus directly on it therefore [TS]

  directly drawing the line on the screen [TS]

  it was like an iPad pro before and I [TS]

  better not just analogize it throw it [TS]

  backwards lens but the cintiq for many [TS]

  years ruled the roost all right from [TS]

  with designers and now I have this yet [TS]

  I'm sure you do too but just because I [TS]

  do happen to do a lot in apple stuff [TS]

  when I'm looking at pictures even in [TS]

  completely unrelated you know articles [TS]

  or bhatia looking at desks I always look [TS]

  at desks right and workspaces I'm [TS]

  fascinated with workspaces you know from [TS]

  machinists to the designers to anneal [TS]

  anything else I think there's a lot of [TS]

  fascination with a lot of fascinating [TS]

  things to learn about a person by the [TS]

  way they handle their workspace how [TS]

  messy it is or how clean it is neither [TS]

  of which are bad necessarily it's just [TS]

  the person right how we move through [TS]

  life you you made a keen observation [TS]

  last week and one because our meeting [TS]

  was held in in what they called the [TS]

  machine shop but it's their design [TS]

  realization lab where they take designs [TS]

  that I guess are like CAD or just [TS]

  prototypes and that it's a machine shop [TS]

  where they take ideas for designs and [TS]

  try to turn them into as realistic and a [TS]

  realistic and approximation of what it [TS]

  would actually be like as a real Apple [TS]

  project as possible mm-hmm and I got the [TS]

  feeling that a lot of that stuff was [TS]

  just so that they can wing it around and [TS]

  hold it and open and close open close [TS]

  open close it and you know see how a [TS]

  human like oh oh this feels really [TS]

  awkward now that I hold it [TS]

  made it as real as possible yeah but you [TS]

  made the keen observation that will [TS]

  looking around and they had a lot some [TS]

  stuff covered with black drapes and they [TS]

  obviously had shut down for the day they [TS]

  said ordinarily there's a very noisy [TS]

  facility for obvious reason but you made [TS]

  the keen observation I thought of that [TS]

  you could kind of see that they were [TS]

  that some of the benches and stuff and [TS]

  the machines were from different people [TS]

  who work there because they were set up [TS]

  in very different ways you know that [TS]

  there's somebody who works at this spot [TS]

  and that the person who works right [TS]

  across this aisle from them is a [TS]

  different person because there's their [TS]

  tools were laid out in a different way [TS]

  and I thought that was pretty [TS]

  interesting yeah I mean I'm [TS]

  hypersensitive to that I came from my [TS]

  grandfather was a machinist and my dad [TS]

  is a you know zach is a craftsman he's a [TS]

  painter find our painter now but he for [TS]

  many years was an install does works on [TS]

  cars and all kinds of other stuff got [TS]

  the same inclination obviously from his [TS]

  dad I mean I'm I'm a dummy when it comes [TS]

  to that stuff i just i can get my way [TS]

  around but their workspace is always [TS]

  fascinated with me with the like my [TS]

  grandfather had a you know i don't know [TS]

  what you call it a cabinet or whatever [TS]

  which was he built himself cuz he's a [TS]

  machinist so he worked in wood as well [TS]

  and wood was like butter to him after [TS]

  working on you know aircraft parts all [TS]

  day and so we built like this cabinet [TS]

  with these wooden drawers and there was [TS]

  maybe i don't know 50 or 60 wooden [TS]

  drawers and each one had a different [TS]

  kind of thing in it like you know you go [TS]

  like oh I need a washer like a split [TS]

  lock washer and he's like oh right here [TS]

  right and you look in and there's a [TS]

  bunch of split water lock washers and [TS]

  they're not new right there reclaimed [TS]

  right there like like a little bit of [TS]

  oil a grid on them but they're fine [TS]

  right they're fine and he put some back [TS]

  there and that way you know like hey I [TS]

  got to fix this thing under the sink or [TS]

  whatever he came from that generation [TS]

  where it's like I'm gonna fix this thing [TS]

  I'm gonna go out pull out a drawer grab [TS]

  this thing and put it in I'm not gonna [TS]

  go to the store and buy a whole new [TS]

  faucet and he's not whatever and he's [TS]

  also not going to jury rig it with with [TS]

  an ill-fitting part and just so no no [TS]

  scrappy together with a rag yeah [TS]

  dripping he's gonna have the exact [TS]

  washer that you need to make a complete [TS]

  you know make the right fit right [TS]

  they're right exactly in the same thing [TS]

  with the tools you know all of the like [TS]

  a punch or a work a pair of pliers or [TS]

  clamp or anything like that's all all [TS]

  laid out all kind of had its own place [TS]

  used worn grimy whatever but they're [TS]

  right and organized in some way to [TS]

  according to his brain and I just saw [TS]

  that reflected on the workspaces and I'm [TS]

  not like you know this is the same in [TS]

  machine shops around the world so I'm [TS]

  not trying to say that Apple is some [TS]

  sort of you know crazy special place I [TS]

  just found it really nice to see because [TS]

  it says hey these are craftsmen a lot of [TS]

  people think about this like Johnny [TS]

  designs it and some thing prints it out [TS]

  you know overseas and that's it but you [TS]

  know I think it is it is very important [TS]

  for us to remember that as you don't [TS]

  Steve said these are you know the world [TS]

  is made up of people who are no smarter [TS]

  than you then they made all these things [TS]

  you know ll it is is they apply [TS]

  themselves you know they put the effort [TS]

  into learning how to do this and so you [TS]

  see those wooden work boxes there with [TS]

  the they're measuring tools and punches [TS]

  and filing tools and those things all [TS]

  laid out in different bits for their CNC [TS]

  machines for the cutting machines and [TS]

  all of that stuff laid out and you could [TS]

  tell like a a man or woman works here [TS]

  you know and they their personality live [TS]

  in the sex yeah yeah exactly and so [TS]

  while the machines themselves may have [TS]

  the overall personality of somebody you [TS]

  know that a lot of man hours and 11 [TS]

  hours what are you gonna call I hate [TS]

  that term eight hours but they went into [TS]

  it and then it definitely rough was [TS]

  reflected in the workspaces you know [TS]

  what I found compelling but any I did [TS]

  grass but like from the workspaces thing [TS]

  I'm seeing more and more on more more [TS]

  designers workspaces they'll have [TS]

  whatever computer a mac or a pc or [TS]

  whatever invariably though ipad pro and [TS]

  a pencil hmm like everywhere like i was [TS]

  reading an article about nike the other [TS]

  day designing some shoe because i'm a [TS]

  shoe fanatic and on the table in the [TS]

  background ipad pro no pencil right I [TS]

  think it's sort of gaining a lot of [TS]

  traction in that industry and in that [TS]

  field and an apple Caesar says an [TS]

  opening for them to go hey we can serve [TS]

  these [TS]

  customers who have [TS]

  customers who have [TS]

  traditionally been very Apple centric [TS]

  and we can hopefully not lose them but [TS]

  at the same time hold to our beliefs [TS]

  which I from their discussion during our [TS]

  talk there they still very strongly [TS]

  believe that touches does not belong on [TS]

  that huge vertical monitor right you [TS]

  know and so this is a way that they can [TS]

  sort of serve both of those well and as [TS]

  Craig joked you know also allows them to [TS]

  sell more products yeah they do and [TS]

  they're very upfront about that that [TS]

  they like it when ya buy loads of apple [TS]

  products that's the person who is a [TS]

  recent iPad convert because of the ipad [TS]

  pro and pencil who I found fascinating [TS]

  and it was exactly what I suspected is [TS]

  Jonathan Hoefler of Hoefler and company [TS]

  though sure typographers and friend of [TS]

  the show icon designer and I con artist [TS]

  and and graphic designer illustrator [TS]

  extraordinary Louie Mancha is getting [TS]

  into creating his own typefaces and if I [TS]

  this is like any super artistic person [TS]

  it's it's not like you know he's so [TS]

  talented I mean he can draw [TS]

  illustrations he can make icons he can [TS]

  do logos and he's drawing typefaces um [TS]

  and put one up like a a through z [TS]

  specimen up and asked Hoefler first [TS]

  thoughts and Hoefler rather than just [TS]

  tweet his response like took it and [TS]

  marked it up with just a slew of of [TS]

  thoughts and just little details and and [TS]

  parts of a be that maybe should be the [TS]

  mirror image of the d you know like a B [TS]

  and a lowercase B and D and and other [TS]

  areas where you think like as a kid you [TS]

  grow up thinking Oh Abby and a dr just [TS]

  mirror images well sometimes you want [TS]

  them to be and sometimes you don't and [TS]

  with explanations of why you know maybe [TS]

  you'd want to take a bigger chunk out of [TS]

  this or you want to have this be curved [TS]

  or this Beach I found it as a as a as a [TS]

  fan of typography who does not have the [TS]

  artistic ability to create typography in [TS]

  any way shape or form like there's no [TS]

  chance that I could make a good looking [TS]

  typeface none but I can appreciate a [TS]

  good typeface and I'd like to think at [TS]

  least that I can appreciate that [TS]

  difference between a good typeface and a [TS]

  great typeface and I found his mark up [TS]

  to be fascinating from a typographic [TS]

  level but then I was also interested in [TS]

  how did he make this mock-up and he [TS]

  write like of course you would ask and [TS]

  he said that it on Twitter huh Fleur [TS]

  said that he switched he got an ipad pro [TS]

  like a year ago and took to it and I [TS]

  forget what jab he's using but it's like [TS]

  I think it's like PDF pro PDF Expert I [TS]

  one of the third-party PDF markup apps [TS]

  and that it was so good for him that he [TS]

  got ipad pros for the entire company and [TS]

  they switched their entire crit critique [TS]

  process for typefaces from paper to PDFs [TS]

  and it was all specifically it never [TS]

  could have happened before the iPad prom [TS]

  pencil and that they're a loving it [TS]

  they're way more efficient and be there [TS]

  saving like eight thousand sheets of [TS]

  paper a day right right like an unlit I [TS]

  don't know what exactly said but it was [TS]

  you can imagine how many you know a [TS]

  company full of type designers who do [TS]

  lots of critiques and and lots of [TS]

  iterations over and over and over again [TS]

  and every letter that they're saving an [TS]

  awful lot of yepper and they've got now [TS]

  they've got a paper trail of the [TS]

  evolution of a typeface that is [TS]

  electronically you know searchable and [TS]

  doesn't need to be archived in filing [TS]

  cabinet or something like that anyway I [TS]

  thought that was interesting yeah i mean [TS]

  like as a long time you know scouting i [TS]

  came come from a family of artists and I [TS]

  never fully went down that path there [TS]

  was like a brief period where I thought [TS]

  I was gonna be a fine artist and I went [TS]

  into I went more into the photographic [TS]

  side of things but I did take all of the [TS]

  required you know drawing classes life [TS]

  drawing etc sewing and I could I could [TS]

  still sketch you a reclining nude if you [TS]

  want one but the that process of like [TS]

  pencil to paper the way everybody holds [TS]

  a pencil every artist holds one slightly [TS]

  differently different angle different [TS]

  inflection and it feels organic and [TS]

  natural to them and a typical stylist [TS]

  requires that you have a fairly precise [TS]

  specific angle on it to make it react to [TS]

  the surface in a certain way and the [TS]

  pencil doesn't I mean you within a [TS]

  certain bounds you can't go as extreme [TS]

  as you can [TS]

  with a pencil but you can go a lot more [TS]

  extreme because of the way that they [TS]

  built it and a way of course that they [TS]

  built the screen to match it whereas [TS]

  most people are working with a fairly [TS]

  standard touch screen and then mating [TS]

  whatever you know Swizzle they can get [TS]

  in a stylist to it to try and make it [TS]

  feel more organic you know you've seen [TS]

  the ones with the little disks at the [TS]

  tip so that you could see what's under [TS]

  the stylist and all that but it's really [TS]

  the hold of the pencil that is the most [TS]

  important thing and I find it amazing [TS]

  that you can you know do a four finger [TS]

  hold on a pencil and shade and then you [TS]

  can flip it and do a standard stylist [TS]

  type hold and so on and so forth and I [TS]

  think that that organic way that those [TS]

  work coupled with the very incredibly [TS]

  low latency on the screen are just [TS]

  selling people on it the moment that [TS]

  they try it or work can figure out a way [TS]

  to work it into their workflow and I [TS]

  think that if they if Apple can leverage [TS]

  that and use that as a way to say you [TS]

  don't need touch because you've already [TS]

  got all the touch you need here I think [TS]

  that you know it could work it could [TS]

  work for that pro all right I've looked [TS]

  it up I've got it in the show notes but [TS]

  I've got the whole thread on Twitter of [TS]

  this typeface critique and the app that [TS]

  I've learned is don't have foreign [TS]

  company Heffel Durant is company are [TS]

  using specifically is notability [TS]

  notability or is it notability pro no [TS]

  notability app which he describes as the [TS]

  only app that he's ever felt feels like [TS]

  a real pen uh damn so anyway it's a [TS]

  great app I do have it don't really have [TS]

  a need for like he does but boy it's [TS]

  great and I agree with what you said I [TS]

  really do it did come up though I came [TS]

  up at the meeting as to whether they're [TS]

  overworking on touchscreen meant at max [TS]

  I feel like it's a it's the question [TS]

  that will never go away until one day [TS]

  they find out a way to do it nobody says [TS]

  see and they're like well you know we [TS]

  were just waiting or what I I don't [TS]

  think they will I really don't I think [TS]

  that they could do it and shut people up [TS]

  but I feel like it's a bad idea let's [TS]

  hold that thought and I'll explain why I [TS]

  think it really is a bad idea and I [TS]

  don't think I think some people suspect [TS]

  that it's oh they know touch is the [TS]

  future and they just want people to this [TS]

  it's all hinges on this theory that they [TS]

  that [TS]

  quote unquote want everybody to use a [TS]

  macbook pro or iPad pro use an iPad pro [TS]

  and so they're starving the mac of [TS]

  touchscreens out of spite to encourage [TS]

  people to buy ipad pros which i think is [TS]

  nonsense um but I think that's the [TS]

  working theory of the otherwise it makes [TS]

  no sense why the Mac has no touchscreen [TS]

  whereas I think that they're great I [TS]

  think what Apple is saying about the mag [TS]

  and touchscreen is the literal truth [TS]

  that it's a bad combination of form [TS]

  factor and in the UI design anyway let [TS]

  me take a break though and thank our [TS]

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  on each side of the bed I like mine and [TS]

  I like it a lot my wife actually comes [TS]

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  nice bed without a hollow pillow we've [TS]

  had it i just gotta be at least a year [TS]

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  like them here's what it's like it's [TS]

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  it and unlike traditional squishy soft [TS]

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  of your head hello pillows hold their [TS]

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  to pillows fed with feathers or foam [TS]

  because there's air between these little [TS]

  buck wheat husks that are that it's sort [TS]

  of our the quote-unquote beans in the [TS]

  bean bag no matter what happens there [TS]

  remains air in there and it keeps stuff [TS]

  flowing and so it doesn't get hot [TS]

  it's really great ours have been like I [TS]

  said we've had them for at least a year [TS]

  they last great it doesn't seem like [TS]

  it's any different than it was when it [TS]

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  with just one pillow it's very true it's [TS]

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  you're going to think there is no way [TS]

  that this thing is actually going to be [TS]

  a good pillow because it is so unlike [TS]

  traditional fluffy pillow here's the [TS]

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  product what are we talking about I [TS]

  always forget no touchscreen Madame's to [TS]

  scream at I get into I get into that's [TS]

  no I I get hypnotized by my own sponsor [TS]

  like wheat pillows yeah so think about [TS]

  like the one that and I'm not saying [TS]

  it's a bad design but I feel like the [TS]

  trade-offs are too much so people are [TS]

  you know talking about the the windows [TS]

  surface file tablets where the you can [TS]

  dock it to a keyboard part and then you [TS]

  can undock it somehow and then the [TS]

  screen is a standalone tablet with a [TS]

  separate processor and its own little [TS]

  battery [TS]

  it is to me it's a worse tablet than an [TS]

  iPad because it's it's it can't have [TS]

  it's not doesn't have a full-strength [TS]

  processor the full strength processor is [TS]

  in the base but it's so it's worse as a [TS]

  tablet but it's also worse as a laptop [TS]

  because then the screen of the laptop [TS]

  when it's in laptop mode is thicker [TS]

  especially compared to the new macbooks [TS]

  and macbook pros like one of the best [TS]

  little things and it's like I can write [TS]

  about it but I don't feel like it's ever [TS]

  convincing to someone until they [TS]

  actually try it for awhile is how much [TS]

  nicer the screen opens on a Mac on the [TS]

  latest macbook pros like I'm still using [TS]

  as my daily driver I still have a [TS]

  two-and-a-half-year-old 13-inch macbook [TS]

  pro from the previous design and it [TS]

  still suits my needs because on a day to [TS]

  day basis the imac is my main computer [TS]

  and it's this is an imax the do what I [TS]

  tend to do with my max is when I do buy [TS]

  a new one I just max it out I get the [TS]

  fastest and I get the most ram and I get [TS]

  the biggest SSD and then use it for [TS]

  years until I feel like I really need a [TS]

  new computer and then max one ad again [TS]

  rather than upgrade like every year or [TS]

  so to a mid-range computer or something [TS]

  like that I think of everything else on [TS]

  the new after getting those review units [TS]

  of the new macbook pros the thing that I [TS]

  miss the most isn't the touch bar and it [TS]

  isn't touch ID although touch ID is [TS]

  closed it's the the way that it opens [TS]

  and closes that's it's so light the [TS]

  screen is so light and thin and the [TS]

  hinge is so much better that it's just [TS]

  effortless it always goes it just lifts [TS]

  the base never comes up when you lift it [TS]

  the base never right shift Swami face [TS]

  thing the fobby base syndrome was like [TS]

  it was always a huge issue for me on [TS]

  what aires yes and macbooks i just got [TS]

  used to I used an 11-inch macbook air [TS]

  for years and liked it in so many ways [TS]

  and I just had it out recently to do a [TS]

  battery test on it and I still love the [TS]

  form factor when it's closed but opening [TS]

  and closing it is sort of a two hand [TS]

  operation or a pinch finger operation [TS]

  because it [TS]

  just like you said a floppy base the new [TS]

  MacBook Pros have the best feel of a [TS]

  laptop opening and closing of any device [TS]

  I've ever seen in my life but the the [TS]

  part of that though is that the screen [TS]

  part the part that you move up and down [TS]

  if you could magically detach that it's [TS]

  way too thin to be a tablet it wouldn't [TS]

  have any room for a battery it's way too [TS]

  thin and light there's no way that that [TS]

  could be a tablet and if you wanted to [TS]

  turn it into a tablet you'd end up with [TS]

  a device with a totally different [TS]

  balance of weight and and etc it's [TS]

  almost inverted really because the [TS]

  keyboard would be on the bottom that's [TS]

  it well and that's it and that has [TS]

  struck me with the iPad pro with a smart [TS]

  keep keyboard like I get it if you to me [TS]

  that that configuration of using an iPad [TS]

  with a smart keyboard or even a third [TS]

  party like a logitech keyboard with a [TS]

  you know click click keys it's so [TS]

  top-heavy I can see it if if your goal [TS]

  is I love my iPad so much that I want to [TS]

  use it for more stuff and I want to use [TS]

  it for writing and so for you know [TS]

  writing I want to have a real hardware [TS]

  keyboard there you know therefore being [TS]

  able to do it and do it with a smart [TS]

  connector for the ease of you know [TS]

  hooking it up and unhooking it up that's [TS]

  great but it's so inferior just as a [TS]

  laptop compared to a real macbook pro [TS]

  like putting the software aside and your [TS]

  preference for iOS over mac OS or vice [TS]

  versa just the art the action of opening [TS]

  and closing it and putting it away you [TS]

  can't beat the macbook pro with with a [TS]

  tablet that docks to a keyboard right [TS]

  it's like you could you could have your [TS]

  macbook pro open close it realize you [TS]

  forgot to do one last thing reopen it [TS]

  and especially if you're using the Apple [TS]

  watch to unlock it or use touch ID be [TS]

  logged back in before somebody else [TS]

  could close up an iPad pro and get the [TS]

  smart keyboard fold it up it's you know [TS]

  again I'm not saying that that means [TS]

  iPad pro with smart keyboard or a [TS]

  Logitech keyboard is a bad design but it [TS]

  certainly is a huge trade off in terms [TS]

  of just just the art of opening and [TS]

  closing the laptop [TS]

  and so I just don't see I'm curious to [TS]

  see so like me I've had a couple of the [TS]

  surfaces have had the surface pro 3 and [TS]

  surface pro 4 and I found them to be you [TS]

  know interesting devices that just [TS]

  really got schizophrenic in the software [TS]

  so like the hardware I wasn't you know [TS]

  the surface pro 3 was okay the four was [TS]

  better hardware wise not too bad the [TS]

  software was just super schizophrenic [TS]

  because it was trying to be two things [TS]

  at once you know trying to be touch and [TS]

  mouse and all of that and mashed into [TS]

  one which is Apple's constant refrain [TS]

  that they don't want to run into that [TS]

  problem and I agree having used you know [TS]

  Windows 10 on a surface pro 4 it just it [TS]

  still felt really schizophrenic to me [TS]

  and I I don't think that it's unusable [TS]

  right so I think there are plenty of [TS]

  people out there that can get used to it [TS]

  I am very curious though people are [TS]

  saying hey you know surfaces are selling [TS]

  more devices obviously their quarterly [TS]

  reproach reports show that they have [TS]

  something there right there's something [TS]

  there that people like and maybe that is [TS]

  the pitch of having the all-in-one so [TS]

  they don't have to buy a tablet in a [TS]

  computer you know that marketing is [TS]

  working and then people get the devices [TS]

  and they like them enough to keep them [TS]

  and so that's working but I'm very [TS]

  curious to see what will happen one [TS]

  generation out when people go I mean how [TS]

  exhausting was using that you know how [TS]

  exhausting was this constant caught [TS]

  being caught in between two worlds and [TS]

  so I think Microsoft has an opportunity [TS]

  right now this sort of gap of time where [TS]

  they've got a little traction and it's [TS]

  going well and so the positive word of [TS]

  mouth is causing more more people to try [TS]

  that that paradigm out where they have a [TS]

  chance to figure it out and maybe they [TS]

  can write maybe they can suss something [TS]

  out and they figure it out and it's like [TS]

  wow this is this really hits the mark [TS]

  and the surface book obviously is a nod [TS]

  to that trying to they're trying to [TS]

  Swiss trying to find their their niche [TS]

  to like put that clawing and that's [TS]

  great but i think that apple looks at [TS]

  that and goes why would we do that when [TS]

  we have these two more pure devices that [TS]

  we feel service just different needs [TS]

  completely and that's our philosophy [TS]

  like hit these nails straight rather [TS]

  than trying to hit the nail in at an [TS]

  angle to try and catch both boards or [TS]

  whatever yeah and I think it fits with [TS]

  apples philosophy of we're not going to [TS]

  we're not going to create enough devices [TS]

  to come [TS]

  every possible desire we're going to [TS]

  have a fewer number of devices and and [TS]

  hopefully have them meet almost [TS]

  everybody's needs and it almost comes [TS]

  back to the fact that I I suspect that [TS]

  there might have been an inkling to you [TS]

  two years ago to a year ago where maybe [TS]

  they thought they could even get rid of [TS]

  the mac pro and just have imax and [TS]

  macbook pros that they were you know if [TS]

  anything I think that they were leaning [TS]

  towards having fewer configurations of [TS]

  Max then adding more by adding something [TS]

  like a surface studio mm-hmm and that [TS]

  gets ass I've said this before many [TS]

  times but it's you know there's all [TS]

  sorts of things on screen on a Mac that [TS]

  are just are not conducive to touch just [TS]

  in terms of how big they are and you [TS]

  know I've done it I know you know people [TS]

  feel strike I get a lot email about this [TS]

  but uh I've I've done it myself I am an [TS]

  anti screen touch her I i liked it i [TS]

  generally i will sometimes buy a new [TS]

  macbook and and it might I might go [TS]

  hopefully many many months before any [TS]

  human being ever touches the dessert [TS]

  display right yeah I'm a hover hander [TS]

  myself I mean I I like to stay I screen [TS]

  it makes me very nervous like people [TS]

  might get nervous there was a scene in [TS]

  The Walking Dead this week where you [TS]

  know without revealing anything in [TS]

  explores but there was a character [TS]

  threatening another character by holding [TS]

  a knife very very close to this [TS]

  characters I ball for a very long time [TS]

  and it bhisma I I can only have they had [TS]

  to have done it with computer graphics [TS]

  because there's no way they it looked [TS]

  too convincing that this but it was very [TS]

  nerve-racking to see a character with a [TS]

  knife held right in front of his open [TS]

  eye ball during a threatening situation [TS]

  for a long period that's how I feel when [TS]

  I see somebody reach towards a non touch [TS]

  display with the right to try and point [TS]

  at a document yeah I get nervous is when [TS]

  they as soon as they start boy um i [TS]

  would rather and the thing is i might [TS]

  touch phobia with screens goes even [TS]

  further i would rather not clean it then [TS]

  touch it is that weird like I've Mike [TS]

  screams like I often have like I open up [TS]

  my macbook ago [TS]

  wow this has like maybe its knees [TS]

  residue maybe it's dust I don't know [TS]

  like eventually gets bad enough to where [TS]

  you have to clean it but I'd almost [TS]

  rather not touch it because then I'm [TS]

  afraid I'm gonna clean it and this can [TS]

  be spongy at the corners no-win scenario [TS]

  in my days as a graphic designer I [TS]

  remember I would work with people who [TS]

  were screen touchers themselves back in [TS]

  the CRT era and I'd you know we'd be [TS]

  Colet you know like hey let me show me [TS]

  show you this is what do you think about [TS]

  this and they'd start pointing to the [TS]

  screen and touching it I'd be like what [TS]

  what are you doing it's just great why [TS]

  why did you scream uh-uh big smeary [TS]

  snail trails across it all right all [TS]

  that said yeah after back when the first [TS]

  ipad pro came out and i had a review [TS]

  unit and and I did what I tried to [TS]

  always do is immerse myself in it by [TS]

  doing as much of my computing on it as [TS]

  possible during the review period [TS]

  including writing the review itself [TS]

  using it um and then when I was done [TS]

  like a day later or so I was using my [TS]

  macbook pro and I went over and I tried [TS]

  to scroll I remember exactly which Apple [TS]

  was it was tweetbot and I think the fact [TS]

  that tweetbot it sort of shares a [TS]

  aesthetic with the iOS version helped [TS]

  write me in I touched my macbook pro [TS]

  screen and tried to scroll it so I get [TS]

  it if it happened to me I could see how [TS]

  it could happen to do more people where [TS]

  they just want to scroll by touching the [TS]

  screen or whatever but you can't it's [TS]

  it's and I get it it's not pretty though [TS]

  it's just not pretty like I mean in [TS]

  terms of the physical interaction it's [TS]

  not pretty I've seen it happen like I've [TS]

  even been like at events and stuff and [TS]

  I've seen people with touchscreen you [TS]

  know max or whatever and they're [TS]

  hurrying to file that's like a reporter [TS]

  you know they're hurrying to file their [TS]

  story and they're bashing away and maybe [TS]

  they go to close up or whatever and [TS]

  they're trying to do a couple last [TS]

  things or even if they're like reading [TS]

  news while they're doing it they're [TS]

  scrolling they reach up and let's do [TS]

  this sort of thing where they they're [TS]

  pulling the laptop in and half closing [TS]

  it and using the screen with their [TS]

  thumbs like stuff like that which I look [TS]

  at it and go you know I get it it's kind [TS]

  of nice to be able to have this duel [TS]

  mode thing where you're like clickety [TS]

  clackety clickety clack and then [TS]

  there's a big touch target and you want [TS]

  to just touch it really quick or perhaps [TS]

  like some some interactions might make [TS]

  sense like swiping on the screen to move [TS]

  an entire desktop space right thank that [TS]

  makes a ton of sense to me logically you [TS]

  know philosophically but just going like [TS]

  hunt I've seen I'm also hunting to try [TS]

  and click buttons if they really should [TS]

  have click with the mouse but the touch [TS]

  pads are so shitty on those on those [TS]

  particular computers or the they don't [TS]

  have a mouse right that they're just [TS]

  like right and then you know you hit the [TS]

  target wrong because the thumb is really [TS]

  calculated to hit it right and all this [TS]

  stuff you know they don't do what Apple [TS]

  does to offset the target you know all [TS]

  of that and remember there's not a [TS]

  predictable angle that they're hitting [TS]

  it from you know because it's a laptop [TS]

  screen within with your phone Apple has [TS]

  offset the key targets so where they're [TS]

  not over the keys they're actually [TS]

  slightly above the keys because of the [TS]

  parallax the way you look at it and the [TS]

  way you type on it and so when people go [TS]

  whack it they don't realize they're [TS]

  hitting above the key but it's still [TS]

  hitting the key and like that kind of [TS]

  thing they can't do because it's [TS]

  unpredictable how people are gonna touch [TS]

  them so I think there's a lot of hurdles [TS]

  that manifest themselves in the weird [TS]

  gymnastics people do when they start [TS]

  actually interacting with those kinds of [TS]

  screens you know especially laptops you [TS]

  whack it and it tilts backwards and [TS]

  flops back down and all this stuff you [TS]

  know right you'd almost want to build [TS]

  one it probably has more resistance than [TS]

  the current macbook pros resistance and [TS]

  in terms of resistance to whether it [TS]

  moves down but not in the electrical [TS]

  sense um yeah yeah there's also a kind [TS]

  of a fundamental difference between [TS]

  tapping and clicking like when you just [TS]

  if you had a touchscreen Mac and you [TS]

  just touch the screen and then start [TS]

  dragging did that touch count as a click [TS]

  and then a drag or is it just that's [TS]

  just where you start dragging and if you [TS]

  think about that it's totally different [TS]

  both ways but you would want it [TS]

  sometimes you'd want one and sometimes [TS]

  you'd want the other like how how do you [TS]

  differentiate between scrolling and a [TS]

  Finder window full of icons and by [TS]

  touching and moving your finger and [TS]

  dragging an icon so you can drag and [TS]

  drop by touching and dragging it's the [TS]

  exact same gesture you put your finger [TS]

  on the screen and it happens to be on [TS]

  top of an icon and you [TS]

  it does it start dragging or does it [TS]

  start scrolling the view of icons mm-hmm [TS]

  right it's there's two things that you [TS]

  want the same gesture to do and on the [TS]

  with the mouse pointer it's it's easily [TS]

  solved because it only does the drag if [TS]

  you click before you move it you know it [TS]

  all sorts of problems that open up like [TS]

  that and it all gets very messy and I [TS]

  feel like most of the people who are [TS]

  kind of hoping that apple would do this [TS]

  haven't really thought through any of [TS]

  those issues and and would be right at [TS]

  least in some ways would be dissatisfied [TS]

  with the result because they would see a [TS]

  dis loppy whereas it it's really not [TS]

  it's that there's no there is no easy [TS]

  solution to it there's no way to make [TS]

  putting your finger on the screen and [TS]

  dragging it do both scroll the view and [TS]

  drag and drop the item you know and iOS [TS]

  gets away with it but not having dragons [TS]

  it's like we'll just cannot do that uh [TS]

  yeah and that's the thing they could do [TS]

  by burning it down so to speak right the [TS]

  interface a layer anders things like [TS]

  onto iOS where maybe they're going to do [TS]

  drag and drop because now they're adding [TS]

  the haptic engine and you can ya get a [TS]

  touch and drag and a click and drag on [TS]

  the iOS but even if you thought well [TS]

  that's then there's your solution for [TS]

  mac OS for a touchscreen but now you're [TS]

  making the top of the macbook even [TS]

  thicker than it was already again [TS]

  another layer of thickness you're adding [TS]

  which is all problematic and if you want [TS]

  to be able to press it hard enough to [TS]

  get a 3d touch you've got to make the [TS]

  you know the hinge has to be even firmer [TS]

  etc etc etc I don't want to go down this [TS]

  route any further but I think I think [TS]

  it's a bad idea and I think it's a [TS]

  rabbit hole right it really is and you [TS]

  once you start going down it you find [TS]

  yourself mixing metaphors and i think [TS]

  that's that's something that's apples [TS]

  super allergic to if you have a touch [TS]

  metaphor that works on the ipad why [TS]

  would you introduce a completely [TS]

  separate metaphor for the same exact [TS]

  action on a desktop machine and the [TS]

  answer of course the easy answer is 0 [TS]

  because desktops different but i don't [TS]

  think Apple views it that way I think [TS]

  they view it well if it's different then [TS]

  why are you trying to like shoehorn this [TS]

  inner this interaction methodology onto [TS]

  it and i think that's that's where they [TS]

  they don't want to [TS]

  and answers for what happens when I [TS]

  touch things you know they just want one [TS]

  answer right i think that's that's the [TS]

  kind of the key there right and I feel [TS]

  like the way like part of the brilliance [TS]

  of the original iphone design was that [TS]

  they had I'm sure entire whiteboards [TS]

  full of these issues to resolve over [TS]

  what happened when you just touch what [TS]

  happens when you drag what happens you [TS]

  know and came up with okay this is what [TS]

  will happen when you do this is what you [TS]

  happen when you do that and came up with [TS]

  an overall design that when you [TS]

  presented it to our normal person they [TS]

  didn't realize any of those things had [TS]

  been designed that it all felt natural [TS]

  that yes this is just you just put your [TS]

  finger on the screen and swipe it and it [TS]

  starts dragging the view and etc etc you [TS]

  know you just touch the button and let [TS]

  go and the button is activated right [TS]

  yeah hot I think they're they're gonna [TS]

  ask the walk into a world of hurt if [TS]

  they start saying different things [TS]

  happen when you touch different things [TS]

  simply because they have come so far [TS]

  instructing people on the one to one you [TS]

  know then the what the one to one is [TS]

  like their mantra you know and it was [TS]

  it's something that they didn't invent [TS]

  but they did perfect and popularize and [TS]

  I think that that is you don't want to [TS]

  give up ownership of that by going oh [TS]

  just kidding that's not actually what we [TS]

  believe I don't know yeah you're walking [TS]

  into a problem there all right I don't [TS]

  believe fundamentally I do not believe [TS]

  that all computers should be touchscreen [TS]

  I think most should be and I think most [TS]

  clearly already are because I think you [TS]

  should count phones as touch screens or [TS]

  as computers and overwhelm if you [TS]

  combine iPhones and Android phones it's [TS]

  you know it's over they overwhelm all [TS]

  the other personal computers and use in [TS]

  the world today let alone tablets and [TS]

  anything else that might have a touch [TS]

  screen but I don't think all should I [TS]

  think there's a place for a [TS]

  non-touchscreen mouse and keyboard it is [TS]

  kind of anyway yeah yeah nike I mean [TS]

  intersects with the whole nother [TS]

  discussion of [TS]

  voice but that's literally a hold of [TS]

  there that's a whole other thing let me [TS]

  take one last break here and thank our [TS]

  third and final sponsored longtime [TS]

  friends at the show back place back [TS]

  plays offers unlimited native backup for [TS]

  your mac or pc no credit card required [TS]

  to get started no risk you get a 15 day [TS]

  free trial at Backblaze calm / daring [TS]

  fireball all data is backed up all data [TS]

  on your computer's backed up that's how [TS]

  much data is backed up what would you [TS]

  say well I not mine i have a four [TS]

  terabyte external drive nope they'll [TS]

  back it all up only hitch is it well [TS]

  however much data you have to back up on [TS]

  your computer however long it takes to [TS]

  upload through your home internet or [TS]

  your office internet it just takes [TS]

  longer to get to get the initial backup [TS]

  up there that's it that's the only hit [TS]

  there is no catch you pay five dollars [TS]

  per Mac per month unlimited data the [TS]

  software is terrific it's written the [TS]

  mac version is written by former Apple [TS]

  engineers and it feels like it it's [TS]

  seamless in the background you never [TS]

  notice it running you just set it up and [TS]

  forget it and it's there and you get the [TS]

  peace of mind the wonderful wonderful [TS]

  you'll sleep an extra hour and night [TS]

  with the peace of mind of knowing that [TS]

  everything on your Mac that's important [TS]

  is backed up to the cloud is it should I [TS]

  be the only way you back up no back [TS]

  plays will be the first to tell you that [TS]

  there's a great place in your back flows [TS]

  backup solution for something like time [TS]

  machine something like super duper to [TS]

  clone your startup disk so that you have [TS]

  a second external drive with a complete [TS]

  clone of your startup disk that you [TS]

  could just switch to and boot from and [TS]

  have go back to local stuff is great [TS]

  it's always going to be faster but for [TS]

  when disaster strikes like if somebody [TS]

  breaks into your house and steals your [TS]

  stuff or if a pipe bursts and a roof [TS]

  over your office and drips water over [TS]

  all your all your computing equipment [TS]

  anything that could go wrong that might [TS]

  go wrong locally having an off-site [TS]

  backup is just a tremendous peace of [TS]

  mind and it can be a lifesaver so where [TS]

  do you go to find out more I've been [TS]

  using back place for years I recommend [TS]

  it I [TS]

  would recommend it if they stop [TS]

  sponsoring the show if they stop [TS]

  sponsoring during fireball I would still [TS]

  recommend it five bucks a month per [TS]

  machine go to Backblaze calm / daring [TS]

  fireball and they will know that you [TS]

  came here from the show and you'll get a [TS]

  15 day free trial by thanks to them I [TS]

  like that back please I mean using that [TS]

  for a long time yeah it's great service [TS]

  I always forget that I have it wrong I [TS]

  really do yeah the only time i remember [TS]

  i restart and i see the little flame [TS]

  icon every once in a while i have an [TS]

  external drive on my desktop that i [TS]

  don't always keep plugged in it's just I [TS]

  just call it storage and it's where I [TS]

  keep all sorts of big ass stuff like [TS]

  video and stuff that I don't necessarily [TS]

  want to fill up my ass my SSD with and [TS]

  every once in while I don't have it [TS]

  plugged in for a while and they send you [TS]

  a nice little email that says hey you [TS]

  know that that device hasn't been backed [TS]

  up in 21 days or something like that [TS]

  right and that's like oh yeah back boys [TS]

  are still running yeah I don't really [TS]

  need I don't really need to plug it back [TS]

  in because part of the reason it hasn't [TS]

  backed up in 21 days as I obviously [TS]

  haven't changed anything so exactly yeah [TS]

  but I use carbon copy cloner for local [TS]

  and then back place for yep for external [TS]

  kiss house burns down yep and then you [TS]

  think wow this is good news my house [TS]

  burned down but I've I get to reset up [TS]

  my computer it's awesome any nerds will [TS]

  take any excuse to reset up on computer [TS]

  oh so all right one of the points I [TS]

  wouldn't say of contention but one of [TS]

  the the the the things that we didn't [TS]

  really think about last week during at [TS]

  that meeting in cupertino was with a [TS]

  with Schiller had said was hey all right [TS]

  we're working on a new mac pro thought [TS]

  up thought from the ground up we are [TS]

  working on new apple branded displays to [TS]

  go along with them neither you're not [TS]

  going to see these products this year [TS]

  and ever I think every single other [TS]

  person at the table heard that and [TS]

  thought okay these things are coming [TS]

  next year and wow that in and and sort [TS]

  of in the context of Wow Apple is [TS]

  telling us about a product that's a year [TS]

  out [TS]

  which is you know sort of unprecedented [TS]

  I guess it's the longest ever I mean [TS]

  they've done things like they unveiled [TS]

  the iphone at macworld in January and it [TS]

  didn't ship until June there's that's a [TS]

  six-month lead a year is pretty unusual [TS]

  if not unprecedented but I had that in [TS]

  my story at least one point where I used [TS]

  the phrase quote unquote next year and I [TS]

  got pinged the next morning from someone [TS]

  an apple PR just to clarify that Apple [TS]

  didn't say next year they did not say [TS]

  next year either they just said not this [TS]

  year and that there's this there's [TS]

  obviously a subtle difference between [TS]

  not this year and next year which is [TS]

  that in theory it might not come until [TS]

  2019 mmhmm yeah nobody from Apple [TS]

  reached out to me like proactively like [TS]

  that but I did look at my when I was [TS]

  looking at the through my transcript [TS]

  just you know kind of make sure I got [TS]

  everything right and all that I realized [TS]

  that nobody did I think it was Lance [TS]

  kind of mentioned twice hey you know [TS]

  these things that are coming next year [TS]

  blah blah blah you know just that speed [TS]

  into another question and there was no [TS]

  pushback right so I think that's kind of [TS]

  where my brain clicked over okay fine [TS]

  they didn't push back against these but [TS]

  it was a conversation so I didn't expect [TS]

  them to necessarily push back against [TS]

  every little thing or maybe they were [TS]

  just waiting for the point of the [TS]

  question right and they didn't you know [TS]

  did slipped their mind or whatever well [TS]

  yeah I know we're in that that they [TS]

  specify next year so that makes sense [TS]

  and I don't think that it means that it [TS]

  won't come next year maybe it will but I [TS]

  also think that they want to leave [TS]

  themselves wiggle room in case they [TS]

  can't get it done and in its first [TS]

  quarter the year after a second quarter [TS]

  of the year after you know I mean I [TS]

  can't fathom lovely see it being three [TS]

  years from now but no I definitely think [TS]

  that they did not want to commit to eat [TS]

  you know exactly 18 months from now no [TS]

  longer kind of thing you know I think [TS]

  it's I at first I was a little alarmed [TS]

  by it but then I thought you know what I [TS]

  think it's just it's just not it's their [TS]

  institutional resistance to talking [TS]

  about stuff in the future and making any [TS]

  promises at all and and they're sort of [TS]

  desire to under-promise and over-deliver [TS]

  I can't help but suspect that internally [TS]

  they certainly are [TS]

  for next year if not early next year I [TS]

  can't help but think that but that they [TS]

  know that Murphy's Law can hit and that [TS]

  they might spend six months pursuing [TS]

  path X and decide nope we need to [TS]

  backtrack and go down paths why instead [TS]

  and now we're 6 we've lost six months [TS]

  that that can happen with the product [TS]

  but given the fact that they're hitting [TS]

  this reset button on a what's now four [TS]

  year old computer or almost four coming [TS]

  up for it but that's call it three I [TS]

  guess because it shipped at the end of [TS]

  2013 a let's be generous and call it a [TS]

  three and a half year old computer uh it [TS]

  that they're doing this now and saying [TS]

  it's still going to take at least a year [TS]

  that that's a pretty long time for the [TS]

  world's most most successful profitable [TS]

  company that specializes in making [TS]

  computers to make a great cuter that [TS]

  should be at a basic level fundamentally [TS]

  similar to you know high-end intel-based [TS]

  workstations you know that that part of [TS]

  this is isn't you know it's not designed [TS]

  in her own at least we think they're not [TS]

  designing their own cpu to go with this [TS]

  right you know that and you know and on [TS]

  the flip side of that i want to so I [TS]

  want to hear your thoughts about is is [TS]

  part of the pushback I got from my [TS]

  article was specifically about this it's [TS]

  not coming this year and and the [TS]

  pushback I heard was from people readers [TS]

  and listeners of the show were obviously [TS]

  frustrated at the mac pro who didn't [TS]

  take this announcement as the good news [TS]

  that I took it as because my biggest [TS]

  fear like I said going in was that they [TS]

  were going to say we're not gonna make a [TS]

  mac pro anymore right like nothing at [TS]

  all right right that's my that was my [TS]

  bad news and my good news scenario is [TS]

  the the mac pro is coming but it's not [TS]

  coming for a while and I thought that [TS]

  that was the good news because if the [TS]

  the in theory good news would be we have [TS]

  a new mac pro and here it is or we have [TS]

  a new mac pro and it's coming at WWDC [TS]

  they wouldn't have had the meeting they [TS]

  would have just either shown had an [TS]

  event and shown it or they would have [TS]

  waited until June they could have at [TS]

  least one [TS]

  did that long and then it shown it I [TS]

  three of fact that it couldn't even be [TS]

  shown in June meant that they needed to [TS]

  do something like this and so I knew [TS]

  that going into the meeting that there's [TS]

  no way they're going to show it to us [TS]

  you know it can't be coming soon so the [TS]

  best possible case would be that they [TS]

  say to us you know it's coming at the [TS]

  end of the year I thought would maybe be [TS]

  the ideal case but I what I heard from [TS]

  people was god damn it why can't apple [TS]

  just take a motherboard from intel and [TS]

  some high-end nvidia graphics cards and [TS]

  put them in a goddamn box and sell it to [TS]

  me mm-hmm right how long did it take [TS]

  right how long can it take to make a [TS]

  nice to unity eyes aluminum case done [TS]

  right you know give jony ive's team a [TS]

  month to make a nice looking box and [TS]

  ship the goddamn thing and I wonder what [TS]

  you did what you think about that like [TS]

  what is it that they're doing that's [TS]

  going to take them at least a year [TS]

  combated to however long they've already [TS]

  been working on on this which right [TS]

  eames to be at least six months probably [TS]

  a little more but at least six months [TS]

  since I I think they'd flip the switch [TS]

  and said full speed ahead yeah I don't [TS]

  know I mean I keep going back it's like [TS]

  almost like hunting me now when they're [TS]

  saying like you know if we're gonna do [TS]

  anything we want to make sure that its [TS]

  innovative and that you know it's not [TS]

  the same old thing and I think I think [TS]

  that it's fine like the best case [TS]

  scenario of that is iphone you know it I [TS]

  don't know what that could be there's [TS]

  two things that stick in my mind [TS]

  completely unrelated to Apple well not [TS]

  not completely but you know sort of [TS]

  unrelated to Apple that they did sound [TS]

  intriguing one of the reasons I asked [TS]

  you know what's your feeling on external [TS]

  GP is was that was my assumption of what [TS]

  the mac pro was because I had heard a [TS]

  little bit before the mac pro was [TS]

  announced you know these things start to [TS]

  come up in conversation as you have them [TS]

  nothing I could put together really [TS]

  solidly but I'd heard you know it's a [TS]

  little blob of a machine and they're [TS]

  going to focus on peripherals which is [TS]

  essentially what they were trying to do [TS]

  but the peripherals never really [TS]

  materialized because of federal issues [TS]

  and all that stuff you know in terms of [TS]

  the vast array of them they thought [TS]

  we're going to accompany [TS]

  this thing but the peripheral that I was [TS]

  really focused on in my mind was an [TS]

  external GPU so it's saying hey like [TS]

  this is what we launched today we think [TS]

  it's going to be great for most people's [TS]

  computing needs blah blah blah and then [TS]

  you know in six months we're gonna have [TS]

  a partner like Nvidia or AMD obviously [TS]

  who they work very closely with who has [TS]

  an external GPU you can plug in and [TS]

  we'll handle your rendering tasks and [TS]

  run your games and you can just pick [TS]

  which GPU you're going to use in boom [TS]

  right and you can just do that and this [TS]

  that way this little blob of a machine [TS]

  lives on your desk for 45 years 8 years [TS]

  10 years and you get the newest GPU and [TS]

  plug it in and as long as the i/o [TS]

  doesn't change you know we don't have [TS]

  some massive change in shift in i/o [TS]

  which will happen every five eight years [TS]

  whatever then you're good you're golden [TS]

  and you're going to be able to keep [TS]

  using this for the GPU intensive tasks [TS]

  that you have that was my thought [TS]

  originally for it mmm I was obviously [TS]

  too aggressive in the way I was thinking [TS]

  about it it gets one way to put it big [TS]

  apple was too though I do well yeah yeah [TS]

  yeah I guess so but not in that way [TS]

  right in a different way in a different [TS]

  direction completely so what I thinking [TS]

  is like maybe that's the answer may be [TS]

  that they figured out like hey maybe [TS]

  external GPUs are the thing and they can [TS]

  go to Nvidia and say hey build us a GPU [TS]

  or an accessory the people plug their [TS]

  GPUs into and then we don't have to [TS]

  worry about it but it doesn't it doesn't [TS]

  seem right to me right because like then [TS]

  they would be doubling down on their [TS]

  current shape and form factor and I [TS]

  don't think that they would be doing [TS]

  that if they they brought us in to have [TS]

  this the whole discussion yeah I but the [TS]

  answer was unambiguous though you asked [TS]

  you know what would you guys see a [TS]

  future for external GPUs and i think was [TS]

  federighi who answered I'm ambiguously [TS]

  yes you know we see a place for external [TS]

  gps it was very short there was there [TS]

  interesting and then turness i think [TS]

  said for some applications absolutely [TS]

  for others know which is another way of [TS]

  saying get doesn't work always but does [TS]

  work sometimes right but not you know [TS]

  I'd not those are terrible terrible idea [TS]

  like touch right right uh right and that [TS]

  was like a long discussion about why [TS]

  there no no [TS]

  they're not you know of all that you [TS]

  know a lot of the questions they [TS]

  wouldn't give a yes or no to but they [TS]

  gave a note to touch and it was it [TS]

  wasn't just know it was no and it was a [TS]

  long discussion but the external GPU is [TS]

  yes and some for some cases I think the [TS]

  other thing that they were pretty [TS]

  ambiguous about is that the new Mac Pro [TS]

  has to be able to support a big honking [TS]

  internal GPU that whatever you might do [TS]

  as a niche within an itch that would [TS]

  require external GPUs fundamentally this [TS]

  machine has to accommodate a big honking [TS]

  GPU that's there all the time and can [TS]

  can get pretty can do things that will [TS]

  make it hot and have the heat dissipate [TS]

  I thought that was pretty unambiguous to [TS]

  UM there was so the other trend besides [TS]

  the external GPUs I'll just interject [TS]

  this I don't I don't know why this is [TS]

  tickling my brain but there's there are [TS]

  types of computers obviously the people [TS]

  who build pcs are very familiar you know [TS]

  you have like the full-size ATX case [TS]

  right which is your big case and then [TS]

  you have mini ATX micro ATX so on and so [TS]

  forth right basically smaller and [TS]

  smaller cases and at some point they you [TS]

  have to get like a smaller motherboard [TS]

  or motherboard that's meant specifically [TS]

  to conserve space and maybe it doesn't [TS]

  have as many ram slots or maybe it [TS]

  doesn't you know have as many uh [TS]

  creature comforts or whatever and it [TS]

  shrinks and shrinks and shrinks but [TS]

  there are their miniature Capri Bo [TS]

  computers called nukes or knucks and [TS]

  that are Microsoft has a very popular [TS]

  one where if it's like you need you know [TS]

  you need somebody who needs a computer [TS]

  but they don't really need anything [TS]

  special they just buy a nuk right it's [TS]

  like 200 bucks and boom you get yourself [TS]

  computer plug a monitor and you're good [TS]

  and then there's other ones that are [TS]

  about really about like fitting really [TS]

  robust graphics cards into tiny cases [TS]

  like really small cases and some of [TS]

  these pc and i'll have to look it up [TS]

  once again i don't have it a finger tips [TS]

  but some of these cases are essentially [TS]

  an excuse for a graphics card right they [TS]

  just they wrap around the graphics card [TS]

  the motherboard is specifically designed [TS]

  to fit inside the case as small as [TS]

  possible and the thing looks like a [TS]

  bread loaf right and [TS]

  just it's all about the GPU and and it's [TS]

  for gamers who want the power but don't [TS]

  want to sacrifice the space and I think [TS]

  VR and to a lesser extent AR are driving [TS]

  this cut this sort of category where [TS]

  you've got a person who wants to do VR [TS]

  and maybe they want to port it around [TS]

  and go to groups to you know go to their [TS]

  friend's house and bring it or whatever [TS]

  like these evangelists fvr evangelists [TS]

  pushing the thing forward in gamers who [TS]

  want the latest bleeding edge you know [TS]

  thing like hundred thousand VR headsets [TS]

  or so have been sold so far so you [TS]

  figure a hundred thousand users that's [TS]

  enough for some case manufacturer to go [TS]

  hey let me build a specialty case right [TS]

  and I think for me it makes it a ton of [TS]

  sense like I love it I love the idea [TS]

  because like if I travel between cities [TS]

  and I want which I do often and i want [TS]

  to bring my VR kit I can pack my headset [TS]

  in my cords into a relatively small bag [TS]

  but then I got this big old tower [TS]

  computer that runs this thing and that [TS]

  sucks right right and in a laptop sort [TS]

  of runs it but won't run it really well [TS]

  it won't run it like an nvidia high-end [TS]

  1080 or no high-end AMD card well and so [TS]

  there's something about that it's like [TS]

  maybe that you're thinking like well [TS]

  heck if this is the future let's lean [TS]

  into it right let's honor the shape and [TS]

  the the power and the the desire to slot [TS]

  these things in here and just build a [TS]

  case that accommodates two full-size [TS]

  graphics cards and up to four SSDs and [TS]

  that's it and I mean I don't know you [TS]

  know it's like same kind of ideas but [TS]

  leaning in a different direction I just [TS]

  don't know if they do that or if they go [TS]

  full-on like bunch of space I think VR [TS]

  is is an interesting topic to combined [TS]

  with this discussion of the Mac Pro and [TS]

  the most powerful possible graphics you [TS]

  can get running on an Apple device today [TS]

  but not in the obvious first level [TS]

  scenario of hay in the current world Mac [TS]

  users can't run vr in a mass-market way [TS]

  or can't do it well and that things like [TS]

  the oculus don't even support it because [TS]

  there's no graphics card that's up to [TS]

  their specs etc etc I think from Apple's [TS]

  perspective that's not really relevant [TS]

  and I thing [TS]

  that they're correct that it's not [TS]

  relevant that the ultimate matts market [TS]

  way for Apple to do vr or ar is to [TS]

  create a standalone device with a this [TS]

  is what Apple does so when they go to a [TS]

  new form factor they create a new and [TS]

  entirely new interface that is meant to [TS]

  be optimal for that form factor and so [TS]

  from Apple's perspective the right way [TS]

  to do VR is to bide your time and wait [TS]

  until the technology can be put into a [TS]

  desirable product that you just put over [TS]

  your eyes and you've you're using their [TS]

  new VR product and it's running a VR OS [TS]

  but in the meantime Pro users have a [TS]

  need to do VR now not the consumer users [TS]

  for playing games and stuff like that [TS]

  that's not really apples purview but [TS]

  like I can totally see you likewise tony [TS]

  has I have one in the house the kid has [TS]

  it you know has a VR headset that runs [TS]

  right now and and people who've you know [TS]

  can play games and it's kind of cool and [TS]

  immersive right um but at a professional [TS]

  level somebody's got to make the VR [TS]

  stuff and somebody's got to do the work [TS]

  and if you assume that Apple just think [TS]

  about Apple's own needs internally is [TS]

  you know it's widely rumoured that Apple [TS]

  has teams working on VR and especially a [TS]

  are apples even said publicly that [TS]

  they're interested in augmented reality [TS]

  mm-hmm they what are the what are apples [TS]

  engineers inside the company using to do [TS]

  these things that is so super right [TS]

  right exactly like if they're gonna be I [TS]

  mean I know perfect obviously that [TS]

  they're working on AR and VR who would [TS]

  you know they'd be dumb not to and they [TS]

  have these teams of people you know [TS]

  poking and prodding at it from different [TS]

  varying angles trying to figure out is [TS]

  this the right way to go is that the [TS]

  right way to go do we build glasses do [TS]

  we built this thing to build the other [TS]

  thing like what the hell are they using [TS]

  right hackintosh is probably I have [TS]

  heard I don't know yeah in recent weeks [TS]

  both both after from a couple people [TS]

  after last week's news broke and and you [TS]

  know our stories hit but even in the [TS]

  weeks leading up to this as I've you [TS]

  know after I linked to a thing about a [TS]

  video editor long time Mac user who's [TS]

  reluctantly moving to win [TS]

  just just because the GPU situation [TS]

  didn't meet his needs on Mac I heard [TS]

  from people within Apple little birdies [TS]

  just saying I guess in some ways it's a [TS]

  shitshow and that there have been you [TS]

  know people in Apple were like I don't [TS]

  know what to do should i try to [TS]

  requisition the Linux box and you know [TS]

  he's not even going to you know it [TS]

  because it's like apples not even set up [TS]

  for things like that to go through like [TS]

  for an engineer right to ask for non [TS]

  apple hardware but that it you know you [TS]

  know just different needs within the [TS]

  company i mean but AR i didn't heard [TS]

  from anybody working on they are but i [TS]

  heard from somebody who's working at [TS]

  apple with large data sets let's say and [TS]

  that that there is no apple computer [TS]

  that actually has state-of-the-art for [TS]

  for the needs of their work uh-huh which [TS]

  is a really weird situation for Apple to [TS]

  know I really is like I'd love to see [TS]

  the POS all right it goes back what are [TS]

  they ordering what it reminds me of is I [TS]

  forget the exact details of the story [TS]

  but that in the early days like 19 83 or [TS]

  84 so like when the original mac was [TS]

  getting on the cusp of launching they [TS]

  added they bought a Cray to do certain [TS]

  supercomputing needs you know for the [TS]

  development of the mac which made total [TS]

  sense because you know super computers [TS]

  were totally different things from [TS]

  personal computers for super computers [TS]

  were at least by the standards of the [TS]

  day the fastest possible computers money [TS]

  could buy and they would cost like a [TS]

  million dollars or something like that [TS]

  and a personal computer was supposed to [TS]

  cost two thousand dollars for twenty [TS]

  five hundred dollars or whatever and you [TS]

  know obviously it was only ran a [TS]

  fraction of the power but in recent [TS]

  years you know at least certainly for [TS]

  the entirety of the mac OS 10 era where [TS]

  you know it was a unix workstation you [TS]

  know you didn't need to go outside the [TS]

  company to buy my next work station you [TS]

  know and they run into all sorts of [TS]

  problems where it doesn't you know you'd [TS]

  really have to go down the head like you [TS]

  said the hackintosh route because just [TS]

  buying a linux box to do this doesn't [TS]

  let you run xcode and your stuff might [TS]

  require xcode in particular not just any [TS]

  c compiler or whatever so mm-hmm it's it [TS]

  you know and then it just think of [TS]

  anybody outside the company who's [TS]

  working on VR [TS]

  and stuff for the future where it [TS]

  becomes a much more mass market product [TS]

  well the work is being done today that's [TS]

  laying the groundwork for the future [TS]

  where AR and VR are mass market [TS]

  technologies that everybody just sort of [TS]

  takes for granted like we take for [TS]

  granted touch screens and everything [TS]

  else down the chain uh-huh at work is [TS]

  going on today and it really is not [TS]

  suited to the mac pro yeah and it is I [TS]

  mean the people that are at some point [TS]

  you have to think to yourself okay the [TS]

  people that are shaping the future of [TS]

  computing what tools are they using like [TS]

  the shovels are incredibly important I [TS]

  mean it's in the startup community you [TS]

  know you always have this I mean it's [TS]

  you know tech in general but startups [TS]

  especially yet you have this philosophy [TS]

  that you know you'll hear VCS or [TS]

  entrepreneurs talk about where they say [TS]

  you know build the shovels right or [TS]

  invest in the shovels because in the end [TS]

  everybody needs a shovel you gotta have [TS]

  you gotta dig the hole you got to pour [TS]

  the foundation and build your thing on [TS]

  top of it but if you're the shovel maker [TS]

  everybody needs a shovel right right at [TS]

  some point either the shovel gets [TS]

  acquired by somebody who's like I really [TS]

  did this particular shovel or it gets [TS]

  widely used in either case is some you [TS]

  know a major minor success scenario for [TS]

  a start-up and it just goes to you know [TS]

  leasing this line of thinking Apple for [TS]

  many years they built the shovels right [TS]

  they built the what what you would used [TS]

  what were you would launch your thing on [TS]

  and build your thing on top of but they [TS]

  also built the shovels and they still [TS]

  are a shovel builder to a degree but you [TS]

  know with Xcode and with you know the [TS]

  macbook pros at all and imax as they [TS]

  said more and more people are using that [TS]

  for things like software development and [TS]

  whatnot but if they are if they want to [TS]

  maintain this hold on being the shovel [TS]

  builder so people by the shovels and [TS]

  they build on top of your platform with [TS]

  your shovels and all of that which has [TS]

  been a major component of apples success [TS]

  with the iphone and everything else then [TS]

  you've got to go okay well what's the [TS]

  next big platform and what are the [TS]

  shovels for that platform you know if AR [TS]

  and VR our in fact you know a big [TS]

  component of the next era of computing [TS]

  and it's not something else then [TS]

  you were where your shovels for those [TS]

  people and right now they don't have any [TS]

  you know or they have some that sort of [TS]

  work but are not really the ideal [TS]

  shovels so no major swath of those [TS]

  people are really going to consider it [TS]

  right now hmm I totally agree with them [TS]

  I think that's sort of what they tacit [TS]

  Lee acknowledged last week which was you [TS]

  know it was sort of a dual emphasis it [TS]

  was conflicting where it was well maybe [TS]

  not conflicting but they they strongly [TS]

  emphasized that the needs of most of [TS]

  their Pro users are met by the current [TS]

  macbook pros and imacs and even more so [TS]

  in the near future as the new macbook [TS]

  pro form factor gets improved and with [TS]

  the imax that they emphasized include [TS]

  quote pro configs um but they realized [TS]

  that for what was the phrase a small [TS]

  single digit of their users which i [TS]

  think means one percent but they didn't [TS]

  want to give an exact number but for [TS]

  yeah it's got to be close to that if [TS]

  it's not one it's close to one but it [TS]

  would say a small single digit of their [TS]

  users they need something else and [TS]

  they're committed to building that for [TS]

  them that they get it you know and that [TS]

  they clearly obviously had their eye off [TS]

  the ball in recent years on that that [TS]

  segment of the market yeah i don't know [TS]

  i don't know if it's like everything is [TS]

  so much more open and rapid now i think [TS]

  i mean i'm casting about a little bit [TS]

  here for why but i think that software [TS]

  development is a completely different [TS]

  ball game now you know where it used to [TS]

  be you had pipelines that were being [TS]

  built and legacy pipelines that that [TS]

  sort of evolved into newer pipelines [TS]

  right and now you have sort of pipelines [TS]

  having to be created out of whole cloth [TS]

  with in years you know a couple of years [TS]

  versus pipelines that evolved over [TS]

  decades and i think that there's [TS]

  something there to where it's so quick [TS]

  you have to like readjust your your [TS]

  frame of reference you know and how fast [TS]

  you got to move on these things and [TS]

  provide those those tools for p [TS]

  I don't know maybe it's that on a [TS]

  meta-level I don't fear anything else [TS]

  right talk about but the other thing I [TS]

  wanted to talk about was the meta level [TS]

  of art our afternoon in cupertino was [TS]

  the campus itself like one thing it was [TS]

  at the old campus it was in a really old [TS]

  building across the street from one [TS]

  infinite loop across de anza boulevard [TS]

  in this sort of nondescript old [TS]

  California style with a single story [TS]

  office building they did treat us to [TS]

  lunch at the new cafe max which I didn't [TS]

  even know existed which is sort of cafe [TS]

  Alves they call it coffee cafe Alves was [TS]

  just a beautiful new building I mean it [TS]

  it's a really impressive architecture so [TS]

  that it would struck me about the fact [TS]

  that the cafe Alves is so nice it's all [TS]

  brand new it's got I don't know [TS]

  quadruple height ceilings I mean it's [TS]

  truly a huge space really nice fit and [TS]

  finish but it also looks very new it [TS]

  looks like new Apple you know it did a [TS]

  lot of apples campus is obviously very [TS]

  old and sort of still it mean predates I [TS]

  mean the whole one infinite loop campus [TS]

  really predates the return of Steve Jobs [TS]

  and the architecture really kind of [TS]

  looks like it yeah but that they've made [TS]

  this very modern new current Apple [TS]

  cafeteria on the old campus which just [TS]

  emphasizes what we've been hearing which [TS]

  is that yes they're opening this massive [TS]

  new spaceship campus this year uh but [TS]

  that they're not abandoning any any of [TS]

  the previous office space they're just [TS]

  bursting at the seams right now head [TS]

  count yeah they're gonna fill the new [TS]

  headquarters and still be full at both [TS]

  which is some sort of bigger on the [TS]

  inside thing happening there yeah well [TS]

  they still saw the need to build this [TS]

  massive new cafeteria or main cafeteria [TS]

  wrong word but cafe I guess but I [TS]

  thought that was pretty interesting and [TS]

  in a wheat which somebody asked during [TS]

  the event about whether people on their [TS]

  teams were moving in had moved into the [TS]

  new campus yet and and it was another [TS]

  one of those topics were for whatever [TS]

  reason Apple does not want to talk about [TS]

  it they do not want to talk about who [TS]

  has moved into the new campus who hasn't [TS]

  and when [TS]

  anybody is moving in did you get that [TS]

  sense that they're just yeah yeah [TS]

  there's oh I mean you know give a couple [TS]

  times they're like hey you know it's [TS]

  like we don't mind asking but we really [TS]

  want to talk about the mac bah blah blah [TS]

  and that was one of them and yeah they [TS]

  definitely are not interested at all in [TS]

  talking about how many people have moved [TS]

  which departments have moved which [TS]

  departments are moving you know all of [TS]

  that yeah and I I don't know what state [TS]

  it's in I really don't i mean i've [TS]

  watched those flyover videos every once [TS]

  in a while and you can see you know that [TS]

  it certainly is ever closer to [TS]

  completion and it you know like [TS]

  landscaping is probably the last thing [TS]

  to be done and it's probably the biggest [TS]

  thing remaining but you know for [TS]

  whatever reason it was clearly not never [TS]

  never on the table that that last week's [TS]

  meeting was going to be held on the new [TS]

  campus even though if you would have [TS]

  told me a year ago that we'd be having a [TS]

  interesting roundtable discussion at the [TS]

  very end of March was it the fit yeah it [TS]

  was the very end of or is it the [TS]

  beginning of vapor I guess it was the [TS]

  beginning of April yeah it was April yes [TS]

  uh in April 2017 I would have thought [TS]

  but that's on the new campus yeah no I [TS]

  think they're still trying to get [TS]

  everybody's uh work table set up yeah [TS]

  hide the LG logos under under five nice [TS]

  boys trying to move the routers further [TS]

  away from the LG mine sorry was there [TS]

  anything else that you want to talk [TS]

  about before we wrap up no I mean I [TS]

  think that covers it I think I think it [TS]

  was an interesting discussion I think it [TS]

  was very interesting to hear them say [TS]

  I'm sought we're sorry twice yeah to the [TS]

  community which come you know honestly [TS]

  that there there's one aspect of this [TS]

  where people are like yeah well there [TS]

  again they never say they're sorry which [TS]

  is not totally true they have apologized [TS]

  for things but there's also an enormous [TS]

  amount of responsibility that a [TS]

  corporation you mean you have to think [TS]

  about it this way strategically there's [TS]

  an enormous amount of responsibility [TS]

  that a corporation takes on when they [TS]

  say I'm sorry because they're admitting [TS]

  some sort of culpability and now this is [TS]

  not like a consumer harm scenario really [TS]

  I mean I'm sure somebody will try to [TS]

  make an issue of it right at some point [TS]

  that's that's not for me to determine [TS]

  I'm no I'm no legal analyst in that [TS]

  regard [TS]

  but it it's a big statement for the [TS]

  biggest company on earth to [TS]

  biggest company on earth to [TS]

  say we're sorry you know twice in in an [TS]

  on-the-record discussion like that and [TS]

  not you know try to crib adore ya or [TS]

  couldn't you know beyond contextualizing [TS]

  and of course and trying to like [TS]

  protector about why it happened and [TS]

  that's like a you know that's a pretty [TS]

  big ballsy thing to do I think for a [TS]

  product that is not a disaster it's a [TS]

  disappointment it is something that they [TS]

  were rightfully proud of when right now [TS]

  like there's this is not a situation [TS]

  where we're headed role or something [TS]

  like that and you know we can laugh [TS]

  about shoulders can't innovate anymore [TS]

  my ass it's I mean it's hold maybe all [TS]

  different discussion but we don't think [TS]

  we need to argue it is that it was [TS]

  innovative it just was the wrong [TS]

  direction for innovation but it was [TS]

  truly an innovative design and to [TS]

  apologize for disappointing people for [TS]

  that I think is different as I say [TS]

  comparing compare and contrast with this [TS]

  week's United Airlines fiasco where took [TS]

  them 36 hours to to apologize for what [TS]

  was literally a disaster where yeah yeah [TS]

  yeah where they issued right right [TS]

  before we started recording they issued [TS]

  a press release that was pretty good I [TS]

  think but should have been the press [TS]

  release they issued 36 hours like it's [TS]

  pretty good but right now it's like it [TS]

  has no and has no impact whatsoever [TS]

  right too late you know 36 hours [TS]

  shooting somebody and then like offering [TS]

  them a band-aid and being like oh man [TS]

  sorry about that all right like Diddy I [TS]

  already have a bottle in me well / PR is [TS]

  the analogy to fires is often used with [TS]

  PRS that it said you know it's put out [TS]

  to put out the fire as the job PR does [TS]

  but it's a really get Surrey alee good [TS]

  analogy and at at when the story first [TS]

  leaked that this poor fellow on the [TS]

  flight had been bloodied while they [TS]

  forcibly removed him and disoriented and [TS]

  had a really bad experience it it was [TS]

  bad it was a fire but it was like a [TS]

  trashcan fire and they let it they let [TS]

  it turn from a trashcan fire into a [TS]

  house that had burned down fire well [TS]

  which can you know like real fires [TS]

  happens very quickly it's is why you [TS]

  need you know PR professionals need to [TS]

  be quick thinking and right [TS]

  to go and United certainly blew that but [TS]

  any just comes to mind when it comes to [TS]

  apologies that there's a big difference [TS]

  between apologizing for a man who's been [TS]

  beaten to a bloody pulp and apologizing [TS]

  for a rather subtly disappointing [TS]

  years-long dawdled down the wrong path [TS]

  of the future of pro hardware [TS]

  engineering and I thought it was [TS]

  bridling something that was ultimately [TS]

  well executed but served the wrong needs [TS]

  right I thought that was pretty [TS]

  interesting and I thought it was it it [TS]

  filled me with I think that they've got [TS]

  this i think they've i think they lost a [TS]

  handle on this and didn't quite realize [TS]

  they had but now they've got a firm [TS]

  handle on it again yeah yeah all right [TS]

  Matthew Panzer II know we can we can [TS]

  read your fine writing and that of your [TS]

  staff at what's the name of the site [TS]

  TechCrunch check crunch Tech Crunch it's [TS]

  a new up and coming site on the [TS]

  internets NAND and on Twitter you are at [TS]

  Panzer they get a right PA and zer [TS]

  that's it that's it so find fine twitter [TS]

  account where you have very very good [TS]

  commentary on the day's events my thanks [TS]

  to you [TS]