The Incomparable

162: Disintermediated Peep Shows


  the Anton comparable number 162 [TS]

  october2013 welcome back to be [TS]

  comfortable podcast I'm your host Jason [TS]

  L and we are live in a room with people [TS]

  in portland oregon where at the XOXO [TS]

  festival which is a celebration of indy [TS]

  content creators and i'm joined in this [TS]

  room by three guess frequent visitor to [TS]

  the podcast Glenn fleischmann has [TS]

  returned hello Glenn hello I'm currently [TS]

  very sleeves of tattoos I've been [TS]

  important for three days they [TS]

  spontaneously form on my arm it's like [TS]

  magic [TS]

  it's crazy that's what the air in [TS]

  portland does greg NOS who only appears [TS]

  on a comparable podcast that are [TS]

  recorded live because he doesn't know [TS]

  how to use a computer is here hi Greg hi [TS]

  it's good to have you [TS]

  thank you and special cast Jeff Carlson [TS]

  joins us [TS]

  is this your first time have you been on [TS]

  i have been on been on your own without [TS]

  me right you were on the air in the [TS]

  aaron sorkin episode that's right yeah I [TS]

  I took your place so i am also only [TS]

  alive performed only one of the cards [TS]

  right [TS]

  not on the computer you're Amish [TS]

  basically basically i can bring my own [TS]

  equipment and I'm i don't understand [TS]

  these things that are in front of me [TS]

  that are stealing my voice yeah i know [TS]

  they are sorry I've stolen parts of your [TS]

  soul that's just how it is [TS]

  there's nothing like so I thought we [TS]

  would talk about it in the spirit of [TS]

  XOXO I thought we would talk about indie [TS]

  projects and and and culture and people [TS]

  creating things outside the bounds of [TS]

  sort of mainstream mainstream media [TS]

  distribution and i'm not i'm not sure [TS]

  what kind of stuff you guys are [TS]

  consuming that goes outside outside [TS]

  those bounds I've got a couple of [TS]

  thoughts i'm wondering Glenn you do a [TS]

  whole podcast about people who create [TS]

  new things and different things the new [TS]

  disruptors do you have some favorite [TS]

  indie culture stuff that you consume [TS]

  look up with like general and specific [TS]

  the general thing is I keep finding [TS]

  myself over time more and more [TS]

  gravitating to things that are created [TS]

  by a small number of people and it's [TS]

  funny I think it goes back even to the [TS]

  software [TS]

  where I like a lot of the software that [TS]

  I use on a regular basis is from small [TS]

  companies there's a few things I used [TS]

  for mass produce once but it's like that [TS]

  there's actually connection and software [TS]

  you can get things fixed and added you [TS]

  can't do that in media but I find that [TS]

  like there's a unless you George Lucas [TS]

  that's right [TS]

  please change that photoshop for me [TS]

  thank you but the leader like a indie [TS]

  game the movie is a great example of [TS]

  that is to filmmakers and they appear to [TS]

  last year's XOXO they're attending this [TS]

  year's they just finished kind of [TS]

  four-year odyssey of it and it's a great [TS]

  moving film and it was really two people [TS]

  work they brought in some people at the [TS]

  very end for post-production they had a [TS]

  composer to write the music for these [TS]

  two peoples and Jamie spin you know [TS]

  essentially spent four years of their [TS]

  lives producing a film which the filming [TS]

  was really done like three years ago [TS]

  they produced one version they produce [TS]

  the blocks tradition and you can feel [TS]

  the hand of individual people on one [TS]

  work that's created i was just a packs [TS]

  in seattle pax prime the big gaming [TS]

  event and I walked all over the place [TS]

  i'm not a game run fairly casual guy and [TS]

  i found that the big stuff was [TS]

  interesting i'm curious what people are [TS]

  playing from the big you know studios [TS]

  and microsoft and nintendo and what have [TS]

  you but there's an indian mini booth [TS]

  where a bunch of developers get together [TS]

  they buy space and they buy one big [TS]

  space they show small business than one [TS]

  of the booths is like this micro booth [TS]

  in which tiny tiny developers are [TS]

  crammed into this tiny times you can bet [TS]

  can't walk through and it's um and all [TS]

  that stuff was lovely like know two [TS]

  things look the same as some of it was [TS]

  artistic and like you know dramatic [TS]

  painterly and some of it was out of [TS]

  control so it was beautiful 3d but it [TS]

  was all the most interesting stuff was [TS]

  packed into this one boot space and the [TS]

  rest of it was mainstream and just all [TS]

  sort of looked a little bit of like to [TS]

  me to stop their better is that I was [TS]

  practicing Raptors just said i was [TS]

  reading for like small people to come [TS]

  out with tiny little new nano computers [TS]

  great what about you do i do you only [TS]

  watch only watch sitcoms on Monday [TS]

  nights on CBS is that you heard what did [TS]

  I that's why [TS]

  demographic yes your announcement of [TS]

  yours against um yeah i agree with Glenn [TS]

  is that I'm what you get out of this [TS]

  indie stuff is a singular vision people [TS]

  who really care about these projects [TS]

  they can make money from them and that's [TS]

  one of the points of XOXO is not only [TS]

  producing the stuff but using the [TS]

  internet newer technologies to find an [TS]

  audience and distribute it and that has [TS]

  allowed me as a consumer of this stuff [TS]

  to find it much easier in fact have too [TS]

  much of it and so the but the stuff that [TS]

  I do find its things that I that would [TS]

  have been passed around on videotape [TS]

  before they would have been produced [TS]

  they may have been more difficult to [TS]

  produce they may have taken much longer [TS]

  because they didn't have the tools but [TS]

  now you can stumble across professional [TS]

  quality movies like indie game which is [TS]

  terrific and because of the internet and [TS]

  I realize that's not a great insight but [TS]

  for me as a consumer I don't have to go [TS]

  anywhere which is really really nice i [TS]

  don't have to talk to people haha i [TS]

  don't have to do that interact with [TS]

  anybody to have this horrific stuff [TS]

  finding its way to me and the fact that [TS]

  it it is a passion project that is now [TS]

  easier to produce easier to distribute [TS]

  and easier to consume is there's so much [TS]

  more of it because of that and that [TS]

  makes it just the whole process becomes [TS]

  simpler you can feel it when a project [TS]

  is a passion project you can feel it [TS]

  when people aren't doing it for the [TS]

  money it's great when they make money [TS]

  but that didn't begin the project and it [TS]

  didn't sustain the project whose [TS]

  obsession that got them started [TS]

  sounds like a tagline movie was [TS]

  obsession i got them started but it is [TS]

  it's that thing that began with [TS]

  obsession ended with customer service [TS]

  back by midnight assembly brought that [TS]

  one by one but it's true is that this is [TS]

  goes back to like the blogging days [TS]

  people would ask me how do i started [TS]

  blogging I'm like is there something [TS]

  you're interested in that you can't stop [TS]

  talking about and did jeff carlson is [TS]

  not again because everything understand [TS]

  everything and I shared office space [TS]

  with him so he knows what I mean let me [TS]

  tell you about Wi-Fi that's not that's [TS]

  not what student pride but it shows that [TS]

  you have to have a session that drives [TS]

  you and [TS]

  it used to be you couldn't either turn [TS]

  that into a career make money from it or [TS]

  find an audience and now you can take [TS]

  your obsession and you can find a way to [TS]

  translate it into something that is not [TS]

  a mass market but that can reach an [TS]

  audience and then you're you know [TS]

  something you're doing something that [TS]

  feels productive because you're [TS]

  interacting with the community that [TS]

  appreciates what you're doing and I [TS]

  think the modern version of indie stuff [TS]

  started with software back in the [TS]

  eighties you people with you know ziploc [TS]

  bag a disc of the game they made and [TS]

  advertised in the back of a magazine and [TS]

  send it off to people in games got big [TS]

  and that kind of died down for a little [TS]

  while but with the introduction of [TS]

  mobile devices in the app store and the [TS]

  introduced the ability to for a single [TS]

  developer to create a passion project [TS]

  have it distributed worldwide to a [TS]

  single source and then reap the benefits [TS]

  and now the tools that allow that are [TS]

  also coming to other media so that [TS]

  somebody who is producing a movie like [TS]

  last year at the indy game people that [TS]

  XOXO talked about the ways they [TS]

  distributed they're distributing through [TS]

  steam which is of course a platform to [TS]

  distributing video games they're [TS]

  distributing through downloads directly [TS]

  from their own site that distributing [TS]

  through distributing through VFX and [TS]

  like say if somebody had a small indie [TS]

  magazine that could be distributed [TS]

  electronically never heard of such a [TS]

  thing how would that work exactly [TS]

  first you have somebody who creates it's [TS]

  jen is another guy comes along and buys [TS]

  beer genius who puts hundreds of [TS]

  thousands of dollars with his own time [TS]

  before getting an app that is awesome [TS]

  that's the solution brilliant i think [TS]

  the fact that an ingrate just touched on [TS]

  this but you know for a long time we've [TS]

  heard about how like the tools will let [TS]

  you make anything like you can you can [TS]

  make something United movie in which i [TS]

  wrote about four years you know like you [TS]

  can build your own moving you can do all [TS]

  this time you can create create create [TS]

  but then there was always that hurdle up [TS]

  okay now you've got it [TS]

  what do you do with it and so it's nice [TS]

  that there's so much focus on how to get [TS]

  it out there [TS]

  how to you know like what happens when [TS]

  you're halfway through the project and [TS]

  you know what needs to be done and you [TS]

  absolutely do not have the resources to [TS]

  finish it that the two guys that were [TS]

  talking last night at a little film [TS]

  festival part that film festival product [TS]

  XOXO they have a movie called strip that [TS]

  they're in the middle of working on and [TS]

  they have 300 hours of interviews with [TS]

  comic book creators and comic comic [TS]

  strip artists basically comes to [TS]

  acquiring yeah and so they are you know [TS]

  like they need to do something with all [TS]

  of that and by having a kickstarter and [TS]

  you know different resources they can [TS]

  actually finish it rather than have it [TS]

  just be the passion project that they've [TS]

  been working on in little bits here and [TS]

  there that you know just might fade out [TS]

  this used to be the software thing we're [TS]

  talking about is that is that software [TS]

  was the leading edge because the thing [TS]

  you have to distribute was bits and you [TS]

  can put on a floppy disk and then a CD [TS]

  and you can email it then you could be [TS]

  no torrent like there's a lot of ways to [TS]

  show you software and it was you know [TS]

  you could take credit cards and software [TS]

  costs enough that you could get into the [TS]

  credit card system there's paypal and [TS]

  whatever but physical goods or things [TS]

  that were media like funding a movie it [TS]

  was movie was too big to download a [TS]

  while ago and it was impossible to [TS]

  collect lots of money so it's like this [TS]

  felt like you could make the movie the [TS]

  tools were good enough on a computer and [TS]

  you can get decent of cameras cheap [TS]

  enough you could make something looked [TS]

  really good a few years ago [TS]

  there's no way you could fund it and [TS]

  there was no way you could distribute [TS]

  unless you got into like video stores [TS]

  maybe itunes not only pre-funding but [TS]

  then the post profit afterwards the [TS]

  district with distributing times profit [TS]

  that's right because remember indie game [TS]

  actually this is why don't we will talk [TS]

  about the whole time but like that was [TS]

  their thing too is they went to Sundance [TS]

  with the movie almost two years ago they [TS]

  gotta editing award and they got [TS]

  approached by distributors and they talk [TS]

  to them all they looked at the deal they [TS]

  said you know we will lose all control [TS]

  we can't send a movie out to the backers [TS]

  outside the United States for like a [TS]

  year and a half there like all these [TS]

  restrictions to maybe do it ourselves [TS]

  they called movie theaters the book [TS]

  stuff they got us corporate sponsor [TS]

  adobe love them because they were using [TS]

  final cut pro and so [TS]

  pro bono vacated the my godmother using [TS]

  a premier Premier front of the other [TS]

  using Adobe products that they were so [TS]

  indie game the sorry I didn't pan out [TS]

  that's what I can explore other people [TS]

  guys aren't getting paid by Adobe Oh [TS]

  said too much and put them and maybe the [TS]

  butt so they they want their own [TS]

  independent even with distribution of it [TS]

  I'm not just like downloads and discs [TS]

  but even like to the movie theaters [TS]

  because you can you don't need to make [TS]

  400 reels of film now you can take a [TS]

  digital disc and that's even fighting to [TS]

  the last year even further [TS]

  yeah I was um it's fascinating to see [TS]

  all the it's not just Kickstarter now [TS]

  there's IndieGoGo and there are other [TS]

  other sites that are doing different [TS]

  models for this and and and you see you [TS]

  do see two different models here you see [TS]

  people who are known who are able to cut [TS]

  out the middleman in some cases or [TS]

  change how they do their business and [TS]

  then you see complete unknowns like [TS]

  these filmmakers who have a subject that [TS]

  people like and want to see and are able [TS]

  to fund it and essentially they are [TS]

  pre-ordering but they're proving that [TS]

  there's an audience and these people [TS]

  can't afford to put their own money in [TS]

  upfront but they know that there's an [TS]

  audience and the audience helps make it [TS]

  which in some ways I mean that's how I [TS]

  always thought Kickstarter was at its [TS]

  core the most important way to do it was [TS]

  there's an audience for this thing but [TS]

  you can't you know make it for them [TS]

  without the kickstart so I most of my [TS]

  experience I got to be honest most of my [TS]

  experience with indie stuff is artists [TS]

  that I was aware of already but [TS]

  especially in the music industry where [TS]

  traditionally musicians the economics [TS]

  have been so terrible that a lot of [TS]

  musicians are now going direct to their [TS]

  audiences and bypassing the the studios [TS]

  and doing projects on their own [TS]

  I there's a couple music artist Mike [TS]

  Cody who we used to be in the band soul [TS]

  coughing released a an album of his old [TS]

  band songs that he recorded and he had a [TS]

  bunch of bonus things as you do i think [TS]

  it was an IndieGoGo project but you know [TS]

  you could get an acoustic album and [TS]

  there's a lot of back-and-forth about [TS]

  what he was going to do there but it was [TS]

  something that was kinda outside the [TS]

  realm of the usual i'm going to put out [TS]

  a release and then [TS]

  artist really like imogen heap decided [TS]

  to release her tracks for her next album [TS]

  as she was recording them instead of [TS]

  waiting for years and then releasing the [TS]

  album and so her album is gonna come out [TS]

  early next year and I've already heard [TS]

  half the tracks already bought half the [TS]

  tracks its kind of brilliant from a [TS]

  business standpoint but also i was happy [TS]

  to subscribe to you know attract every [TS]

  two to three months instead of waiting [TS]

  for the old model [TS]

  well this is what's happening to is I [TS]

  think you're getting the Baroque effect [TS]

  of having so much money pouring into the [TS]

  system when you find that people [TS]

  actually want to support the artist [TS]

  directly especially in the music [TS]

  business but was in film book cartooning [TS]

  cartoonist the musicians have made a [TS]

  terrible living is like cartoons or even [TS]

  lower down the heat in there at one of [TS]

  cartoonist I know now it's not like the [TS]

  rolling in money but it's like someone [TS]

  have the day job and this is now let's [TS]

  make a full living and they don't have [TS]

  to worry about the day job somewhere [TS]

  able to quit the day job because it's [TS]

  enough money that they can then move [TS]

  into the new project so they're [TS]

  superstars in every field but the thing [TS]

  I was thinking about is that the the [TS]

  broke part is that i'm Kickstarter's [TS]

  probably on track to bring it on a [TS]

  foreigner finder million dollars this [TS]

  year I think something like that really [TS]

  supported billion dollars and completed [TS]

  pledges IndieGoGo is smaller but it [TS]

  might be I think I'm sure like twenty [TS]

  twenty-five percent of that they've got [TS]

  that different model like Kickstarter [TS]

  you have to raise all the money you sent [TS]

  out to raise you don't get any of it you [TS]

  can go over IndieGoGo you can say I only [TS]

  want to raise whatever I raised [TS]

  there's now a bunch of product sites [TS]

  where there's a it's a different compact [TS]

  with the buyer so it's we release money [TS]

  to the product designer only as they [TS]

  complete benchmarks or we're going to [TS]

  fully vet there's one site that's we're [TS]

  going to fully vet the product rating [TS]

  with engineering firms we're gonna have [TS]

  the ledge see if this is feasible before [TS]

  we even let someone listen it's not [TS]

  we're gonna have to go back and iterate [TS]

  so the only stuff we list we feel will [TS]

  be a little further along and more [TS]

  likely produced and so they're so it's [TS]

  not just this monolithic like you go to [TS]

  Kickstarter's one approach there's [TS]

  enough money that you're seeing like you [TS]

  know these sites could be doing 20 [TS]

  million dollars 50 million dollars [TS]

  there's a lot of nature like I mean [TS]

  there's a porn version Kickstarter hmm [TS]

  you can go out and get you know fund [TS]

  your fetish film what's called and asked [TS]

  us for some specific examples of indie [TS]

  art that i consider want to talk about [TS]

  haha be born there [TS]

  predictive is a call plz kick-started it [TS]

  just kick something like that yes well [TS]

  I've wanted to mix stopper right [TS]

  alternators when I was gonna I was gonna [TS]

  ask you that you talk about the the [TS]

  indie artists that you pursued that [TS]

  you've pursued have been label artists [TS]

  that have gone independent right right [TS]

  because the economics are problematic [TS]

  right and that or maybe artists that are [TS]

  on a label but want to do a different [TS]

  method of of releasing to the fans [TS]

  because they know that eventually [TS]

  they'll be a studio album that's in the [TS]

  old channel but could I do something in [TS]

  the intervening three years while making [TS]

  this album so there's a couple different [TS]

  right and then those are people that [TS]

  have built audiences already yeah it's [TS]

  not just one of the reasons that it's [TS]

  easy for them to do this [TS]

  yes just like just like zach braff or or [TS]

  you know Veronica Mars and there's a [TS]

  whole debate about whether they deserve [TS]

  to be on Kickstarter because they have [TS]

  access to your money and I think that [TS]

  deserve is not a question of it there's [TS]

  proof that people who come into the [TS]

  system the the crowdfunding system [TS]

  because of these larger projects then [TS]

  contribute to other stuff i was going to [TS]

  ask you have you sought out other [TS]

  artists through Kickstarter or through [TS]

  other crowdfunding means well I [TS]

  certainly don't use Kickstarter as a as [TS]

  a way to discuss we recommend it's not a [TS]

  discovery medium right so so I I'm you [TS]

  know you will find project music hard [TS]

  too because you really do want to listen [TS]

  to it and and and whether you find it [TS]

  through alternative means or mainstream [TS]

  means you know you want to make that [TS]

  connection to like this stuff and then [TS]

  you follow you follow that it they're [TS]

  different models i was going to mention [TS]

  in books that you know self-publishing [TS]

  we've been talking about Kickstarter [TS]

  crown fighting but self-publishing there [TS]

  have been several successes and and [TS]

  again I'll leave [TS]

  50 shades of grey Greg to talk about [TS]

  mice expertise as well have a whole [TS]

  other world of toilet fanfic what's up [TS]

  big so I was going to mention wool by [TS]

  Hugh Howey which is a best-selling novel [TS]

  that's now been released by a [TS]

  traditional publisher but it started as [TS]

  a series of novel let's basically [TS]

  released by toilet and how it's not [TS]

  twilight fan effect on although you can [TS]

  do that on amazon now it was it was [TS]

  released by him directly self-published [TS]

  amazon and it became wildly successful [TS]

  and is essentially a best-seller now and [TS]

  I think it was a nanowrimo in fact so [TS]

  now [TS]

  travel writing month disclosure i'm on [TS]

  the board everybody should write a novel [TS]

  in November Greg's gonna kill himself [TS]

  I'll write a story about Greg but i'm [TS]

  launching a kickstarter for someone to [TS]

  write a novel for the excellent i can't [TS]

  wait to read that the Kickstarter not [TS]

  the novel idea huh [TS]

  you have somebody write a novel then you [TS]

  buy it from them let's get this is money [TS]

  yes but she wouldn't we you know that [TS]

  it's a it's a pretty good book actually [TS]

  and it's what's funny about it is that I [TS]

  they bundle it up into an omnibus [TS]

  edition and that's the one that was [TS]

  published in a more traditional means [TS]

  and that that happens to a lot of this [TS]

  stuff to is once it gets discovered [TS]

  sometimes it just like webcomics that [TS]

  turn into printed books it's sort of [TS]

  like after the fact once you it's almost [TS]

  like the crowdfunding or internet [TS]

  popularity becomes a filter that it's so [TS]

  hard it's not that there is some good [TS]

  stuff out there it's it's hard to find [TS]

  it in if you're a publisher if your [TS]

  mainstream up with the money it's like [TS]

  where do you put in money it's like oh [TS]

  that's the the problem of editors and [TS]

  gatekeepers has now been transferred to [TS]

  the audience yeah is why the reason I [TS]

  asked you about whether you found [TS]

  anybody knew through Kickstarter [TS]

  crowdfunding is because you can go out [TS]

  there and swing a cat and hit 50 new [TS]

  things that you might be interested in [TS]

  and it's it's the mainstream media as [TS]

  well as producing an enormous amount of [TS]

  amazing stuff right and so now you have [TS]

  these sluice gates opened a terrific [TS]

  mainstream media available terrific [TS]

  indymedia and how do you filter that [TS]

  what this also that's the it's the the [TS]

  niche thing know the nice thing which [TS]

  word is that was quite a small space [TS]

  that happy the nice media we're in [TS]

  northridge el museo need the nice thing [TS]

  is that you have um there's small [TS]

  audience as you gaze into the [TS]

  Kickstarter the Kickstarter also cases [TS]

  it to you [TS]

  wow it doesn't bring me down I hope fun [TS]

  the it's that every small audience is [TS]

  whether the gatekeeper thing that the [TS]

  audience is not the gatekeeper as a [TS]

  certain level like you can have a [TS]

  fundamental there's the issue that the [TS]

  audience is fine what they like to write [TS]

  so Amanda Hocking is the big example [TS]

  where she was telling all these millions [TS]

  of vampire novels and and so forth and [TS]

  made a fortune selling a very [TS]

  specifically was Taylor but you also [TS]

  have we talked [TS]

  over and over again about the thousand [TS]

  true fan SI that kevin kelly roads it's [TS]

  seminal because it took a concept sort [TS]

  of codified it under one term that the [TS]

  idea that you know he was saying p1000 [TS]

  true fans I think it was a musician you [TS]

  can probably make a living or [TS]

  programming from it but what turns out i [TS]

  think that be true is it scalable so you [TS]

  can have a hundred true fans and produce [TS]

  certain kinds of things you know your [TS]

  ballet troupe in a small town or your [TS]

  gear it's every one side project but you [TS]

  have a hundred people who come to every [TS]

  performance and that's that I you look [TS]

  familiar to me [TS]

  I tried to do the two tests are you can [TS]

  end but you can have the bat-rope you [TS]

  can happen to have a thousand people you [TS]

  have 10,000 hundred thousand so the ship [TS]

  famous people use Kickstarter issues [TS]

  well you know everybody's a little bit [TS]

  payments or could but it's like they can [TS]

  raise five million dollars for Veronica [TS]

  Mars movie but somebody else might raise [TS]

  five thousand dollars that is equally as [TS]

  significant for them right [TS]

  the scale at which they're working for a [TS]

  fanfic veronica mars movie exactly right [TS]

  handheld cameras running for and [TS]

  actually getting something that just [TS]

  just call it better do I sign up online [TS]

  not know this [TS]

  I mean this is one of the that this [TS]

  discussion has gone interesting [TS]

  direction which is and I could expect [TS]

  nothing less from you gentlemen have you [TS]

  have you not listened to the podcast [TS]

  yeah my podcast heart's beating really [TS]

  know the UH the idea that you don't you [TS]

  know a publisher is seeking a hit [TS]

  they're seeking a hit a very very [TS]

  because they know that a lot of the [TS]

  things aren't going to make it and some [TS]

  are going to break even and they want [TS]

  hits and when you're in this with it [TS]

  with distribution mechanisms we have met [TS]

  with ebooks and print on demand and a [TS]

  small run press and web comics and [TS]

  podcasts many podcasts are not every [TS]

  podcast is from a corporate behemoths [TS]

  like the uncomfortable [TS]

  oh you know the it's you don't need to [TS]

  have a hit that reaches a million people [TS]

  i mean like on TV a TV show that reaches [TS]

  a million people in unless that you know [TS]

  depending on the channel and the [TS]

  demographics it's kind of a failure [TS]

  happens [TS]

  travelocity well it depends now actually [TS]

  these days some shows on cable if you [TS]

  get a million you're doing ok well on [TS]

  CBS but a podcast that reaches 15 or 20 [TS]

  thousand people you know that that's a [TS]

  wild success in and and it doesn't have [TS]

  to reach a million you can be you know [TS]

  you can be uncomfortable and reach [TS]

  15,000 people and be okay because we let [TS]

  those are the because the comfortable [TS]

  listenership those are the best 15,000 [TS]

  people on the face of the earth [TS]

  let me flip it around to there's another [TS]

  part which is as a creator as an artist [TS]

  and Jeff Cross has written and enormous [TS]

  number of computer of technical books or [TS]

  technology books that brings us to our [TS]

  sponsor he works of Jeff Carl's going to [TS]

  the circumstances and all his books are [TS]

  fully edible the ok but I'm good [TS]

  so just written Jeff catoctin this [TS]

  experience being a ton of books when you [TS]

  want to talk about the hit concepts and [TS]

  terms any steps so you work for [TS]

  conventional computer but publishers [TS]

  turning into interview Jeff tell me [TS]

  about it but it's your written i don't [TS]

  know we have like 30 books including [TS]

  revision something on that order of [TS]

  magnitude higher but what happens when [TS]

  you don't you know you get in advance [TS]

  what happens when you don't you and you [TS]

  don't have a hit when you're working [TS]

  with the conventional publisher how does [TS]

  that work out for you financially things [TS]

  just kind of fade and then I mean it's [TS]

  they don't come and get your money but [TS]

  they just don't ask you for more [TS]

  yeah they'll give you exactly well I can [TS]

  turn this back on you because I didn't [TS]

  go tonight after written books we we [TS]

  wrote a thousand-page book about adobe [TS]

  golive and wow yeah exactly like 9000 [TS]

  Stephenson pro we didn't believe it at [TS]

  the time at three-thirty guns it will be [TS]

  all Stevens well it started as 800 pages [TS]

  so you know that was how much more [TS]

  manageable develop yeah exactly [TS]

  George RR Martin's game of colon [TS]

  is another we started with stephen king [TS]

  and ended up with george RR 1 and so the [TS]

  the the way publishing works is we [TS]

  received in advance and then when the [TS]

  book goes on on for sale [TS]

  the book has to earn back its advance [TS]

  before we see any royalties and [TS]

  fortunately if the book is not [TS]

  successful or moderately successful we [TS]

  you know don't have to give back any of [TS]

  the money or anything like that and so I [TS]

  mean at some point because goal i was a [TS]

  big deal for a very small amount of time [TS]

  after adobe purchased it and then [TS]

  dreamweaver just basically you know it's [TS]

  lunch and so we would get these monthly [TS]

  royalty statements and we were you know [TS]

  massively in the whole like we will [TS]

  never ever ever see any money from that [TS]

  and so there's the advantage thereof of [TS]

  having a a traditional book publisher [TS]

  that will take that risk and I mean I [TS]

  think ultimately they probably made a [TS]

  little bit of money because of the the [TS]

  markups and all of that but you have [TS]

  that that that mechanism in place where [TS]

  someone is going to say okay we're gonna [TS]

  put some money into this we're going to [TS]

  make this happen like it's going to be a [TS]

  thing and then we're going to put it out [TS]

  there and we have a Salesforce and we [TS]

  have like infrastructure to to make this [TS]

  happen and even if it's not a a wild [TS]

  success [TS]

  it's okay and and you know that look [TS]

  like the profits of this or or if you [TS]

  sort of you know mid-level sales things [TS]

  contribute to the bigger picture and [TS]

  that's not the case with it with indeed [TS]

  but this is what I this is what i think [TS]

  is interesting about the long tail had [TS]

  this conversation in fact with chris [TS]

  anderson when he was working on the book [TS]

  the longtail years ago because he was at [TS]

  work at amazon in 96-97 one of the great [TS]

  secrets of Amazon was that is special [TS]

  order fulfillment really well and nobody [TS]

  else that at the time even barnes and [TS]

  noble we could get any book within a few [TS]

  weeks and charged list price there is no [TS]

  markup at the time that was a secret [TS]

  because those you make the highest [TS]

  amount of money from because they're [TS]

  expensive books typically you don't [TS]

  discount them [TS]

  the thing about the long tail that's [TS]

  interesting Chris emphasizes a in a few [TS]

  places in his book is that the longtail [TS]

  benefits the publisher or the aggregator [TS]

  of the resale reseller amazon it is [TS]

  great for amazon they can sell one copy [TS]

  of a million books profitably the [TS]

  hundred thousand publishers that are [TS]

  selling 10 copies of books a half month [TS]

  through amazon they're not making very [TS]

  much money and the same thing goes for [TS]

  the publisher the publisher they can [TS]

  distribute their profits and losses [TS]

  across have some blockbusters and some [TS]

  not they want the big ones but i was [TS]

  thinking but they can still do okay even [TS]

  as long as an average and I was taken [TS]

  from the artist standpoint this new [TS]

  economy of things means that well this [TS]

  is why flipping around is like you have [TS]

  to sell 15,000 copies of the book to [TS]

  earn out and make probably a decent [TS]

  hourly wage from what you did write [TS]

  something in every twenty twelve to [TS]

  fifteen thousand copies from my but if [TS]

  you can control all the means of [TS]

  production if I go with Kickstarter I'm [TS]

  like I want really not going to kick [TS]

  start to write a book about Goliath via [TS]

  the classic program it's like an old [TS]

  video first you have to kick-start the [TS]

  time machine that's right it's at [TS]

  legends of Zelda go live edition but if [TS]

  i were to do that I don't have to sell [TS]

  twelve thousand copies I'm I've been [TS]

  talking to so many people to kick [TS]

  starters who their have the price point [TS]

  maybe the rewards in the $25 range they [TS]

  sell a thousand their 25 grand it's [TS]

  enough for them to do 2,000 if it's a [TS]

  product or a book or whatever and then [TS]

  they have that they've they may be Nate [TS]

  made no money doing air quotes audience [TS]

  i'm doing air quotes i just made no [TS]

  money off the project but they used to [TS]

  literally kick-started they've sold my [TS]

  friend matt bors editorial cartoonist he [TS]

  printed like 5000 copies of the book for [TS]

  fulfilling a thousand order Kickstarter [TS]

  every bookie cells at this point makes a [TS]

  hundred percent of the cost of that book [TS]

  he gets to retain because he paid all [TS]

  the costs of production [TS]

  yeah it's a big tits video we did that [TS]

  actually when we started doing ebooks at [TS]

  macworld was the same calculation which [TS]

  was to sell direct you don't go through [TS]

  a middleman your-your-your unity books [TS]

  they take now we sell through a [TS]

  middleman which sam is on your Apple but [TS]

  it's it's believed me far more efficient [TS]

  than going through a book publisher or [TS]

  magazine distributor and that that's the [TS]

  beauty of this is that you can sell you [TS]

  don't need to sell 15,000 you can sell [TS]

  ten thousand five thousand of whatever [TS]

  you're doing and it comes back to that [TS]

  which is where [TS]

  it's a its audience fragmentation [TS]

  everybody wants to have a best seller [TS]

  but if you were building something that [TS]

  is liked by a small group of people you [TS]

  can you can do that and it's not a [TS]

  failure which it in the past it would [TS]

  have been a failure and know those [TS]

  things wouldn't have existed but even [TS]

  beyond that I think that the motivations [TS]

  are fundamentally different there are [TS]

  different methods for getting the stuff [TS]

  out to people and the the indie [TS]

  producers that are now able to take [TS]

  advantage of these methods not only the [TS]

  big corporations and they can like you [TS]

  know IDG with macworld being able to get [TS]

  more efficient distribution but people [TS]

  who were doing stuff anyway for their [TS]

  own edification can now find audiences [TS]

  and make a profit yes and that's that I [TS]

  think is the fundamental change [TS]

  obviously business efficiencies are [TS]

  really important and where was it this [TS]

  is different [TS]

  yes although i would argue with with [TS]

  macros I mean there is a business [TS]

  efficiency premiere but in the end we [TS]

  wanted to have our content live beyond [TS]

  where was that as editors and so and we [TS]

  without really any business supervision [TS]

  just 19 happened if you're using a book [TS]

  so there's that was a little bit you [TS]

  take the Robertsons and have passion [TS]

  about exactly you would probably speed [TS]

  sitting in your lonely apartment writing [TS]

  articles about the mac if you couldn't [TS]

  distribute them you know how do you know [TS]

  about my lonely person and they believe [TS]

  in taking them to your neighbor's door [TS]

  it's only apartment while I and their [TS]

  jobs well as / picture yeah I'm [TS]

  extrapolating your life if you've never [TS]

  met [TS]

  yeah i thought so haha well played i [TS]

  know that was where you were it's a [TS]

  wonderful I life [TS]

  yeah no it's not it's a lonely apartment [TS]

  with a self-published thing he'd been [TS]

  able librarian no I think all the the [TS]

  business efficiencies that come for [TS]

  traditional channels are terrific but [TS]

  it's really the people who were [TS]

  printings eens and there that can now [TS]

  reach a much larger audience and can [TS]

  make a living it [TS]

  so one of the speakers at XOXO was Erica [TS]

  moen right yeah who described her talk [TS]

  who well she's an indie cartoonist [TS]

  really what kind of into cartoon figures [TS]

  your specialty she's got she discusses [TS]

  many topics in her career things will [TS]

  involves things that go inside of the [TS]

  thing [TS]

  yes that's right there based on that [TS]

  make people happy but she her point i [TS]

  think the overall point of her talking [TS]

  to there's an excellent episode of clans [TS]

  podcast the new disruptive read the on [TS]

  another podcast the but was what was [TS]

  really great about that that is that her [TS]

  message was she's now able to be a [TS]

  cartoonist for her living and she had [TS]

  never in her life believed that her [TS]

  thing that she loved the most in the [TS]

  world would be anything but something [TS]

  she had to do on the side because [TS]

  artists you can't make a living being an [TS]

  artist and the internet and web comics [TS]

  and building her audience and selling [TS]

  you know books and t-shirts and whatever [TS]

  else she now makes her living as an [TS]

  artist and that's so not only are people [TS]

  getting this art that would otherwise [TS]

  kind of maybe not be visible to them but [TS]

  she can she can do that for her life and [TS]

  that's amazing i want to bring up [TS]

  something that will sound like I'm [TS]

  totally off topic which is not the time [TS]

  you and all I read those new york times [TS]

  article about webcam girls and discuss [TS]

  what I'm talking about anything but it [TS]

  actually was interesting it was him this [TS]

  time no unit is exactly the same [TS]

  economics if you disregard what the [TS]

  woman's job these are women who build [TS]

  and ship out [TS]

  webcams that's probably worth that's [TS]

  right there electronic assembly woman [TS]

  people like to watch electronics being a [TS]

  sentence it'll be fun to watch women [TS]

  assemble electronics there's already [TS]

  unstable severe weather doesn't its [TS]

  rules be going to have very few managers [TS]

  yeah you do around the the next great [TS]

  industry rule 34 is you can see women [TS]

  doing anything you want the including [TS]

  assembly electronics whatsoever but the [TS]

  economics of are identical is that women [TS]

  who used to be in operations you know in [TS]

  its sexual rings and with pimps whatever [TS]

  they're now independent producers they [TS]

  control their environment they keep it [TS]

  much fair percentage as much as fifty to [TS]

  sixty percent of what they make their a [TS]

  safer place [TS]

  they're entrepreneurs they have to [TS]

  employ marketing and it's a direct [TS]

  connection and you're like I'm so i'm [TS]

  actually not being contentious about [TS]

  this site it was reading it going like [TS]

  this is just like this is an independent [TS]

  producer thing yeah and it is [TS]

  disintermediated you know people shows [TS]

  or ok to live pictures in the same way [TS]

  that that yeah so tired [TS]

  haha the disinformation people do that [TS]

  that's that that's the old story that [TS]

  but you know that pornography always [TS]

  finds new technology i mean not really [TS]

  really didn't have any partner it wasn't [TS]

  the first time no nerds nerds got there [TS]

  first and only later did pornography [TS]

  rush in but absolutely I it's going to [TS]

  be rushed it and what you get is you get [TS]

  a you get stuff whether it's whether [TS]

  it's webcam girls or its books or movies [TS]

  or TV shows or whatever you get or [TS]

  webcomics you're getting there was a [TS]

  build-up then suddenly haha so you're [TS]

  getting i'm just going to sit here but [TS]

  you're you're getting a greater [TS]

  diversity of stuff to i mean that's [TS]

  that's that's what it's gonna add to [TS]

  turn pivot this from being talking about [TS]

  the creator's talking about that [TS]

  consumed the consumers you you get stuff [TS]

  that would you know it's like wow [TS]

  imagine if he had written more books and [TS]

  it turns out he wanted to write more [TS]

  books but they never sold so you never [TS]

  saw them now you'd see that the artist [TS]

  as executive development is is [TS]

  discoverability how you find this among [TS]

  the vast see what's available is I have [TS]

  limited amount of time I person with a [TS]

  publisher was a really good filter right [TS]

  because it's somebody had already found [TS]

  and there are tools for finding out with [TS]

  my friends like and but it's I don't [TS]

  think that's a solved problem yet is how [TS]

  can you find new things [TS]

  the the most worthy new things how did [TS]

  they find audiences they have the tools [TS]

  available to them now but how do you [TS]

  break out how do you get past the noise [TS]

  and I don't think that's assault [TS]

  no word of mouth came up a lot of XOXO [TS]

  and and it struck me because I feel like [TS]

  with with with this podcast with other [TS]

  podcast that I like nobody's ever heard [TS]

  of any of them and I and I'm and it's [TS]

  strange paths like John siracusa worked [TS]

  with a guy whose brother did a podcast [TS]

  and that was the flophouse and junk [TS]

  siracusa told me [TS]

  yeah and I told people on this podcast [TS]

  and i love the flophouse and you know it [TS]

  gets around but it's not like there's [TS]

  you know marketing there are millions of [TS]

  people who would love the uncomfortable [TS]

  billions of people who have less income [TS]

  from just not that I States this is the [TS]

  problem is that we're in the Golan [TS]

  Golden Age of podcasting gentleman and I [TS]

  propose we take advantage of but no this [TS]

  isn't this is a new renaissance Harry [TS]

  this is the new renaissance and [TS]

  podcasting because for some reason we've [TS]

  seen many total explosion new podcast [TS]

  people brought passion back in there is [TS]

  a little more money in the system that [TS]

  helps people are chasing it thanks like [TS]

  this for thanks to our sponsors a panda [TS]

  but but i would say that like that [TS]

  hinders discoverability there used to be [TS]

  when i was at amazon 96 there were I [TS]

  want to say 25,000 new books published [TS]

  by major publishing houses like the top [TS]

  200 a year and they were like 250,000 [TS]

  books published if you include all the [TS]

  self-publishing small house in ds1 [TS]

  office whatever there are something like [TS]

  if you don't include me but now there's [TS]

  a million-plus books in the united [TS]

  states now published every year and that [TS]

  only counts the number of things that [TS]

  get ISBN and so forth includes ebooks [TS]

  are now half of that how do you find [TS]

  something when there's a million new [TS]

  passat read most of them haha he's [TS]

  forgotten [TS]

  yes was that no help there and then he [TS]

  forgets it so yeah we put on goodreads i [TS]

  mean i have to say that again if you can [TS]

  get in the water somewhere somewhere in [TS]

  the water supply then social media can [TS]

  help then think sites like goodreads or [TS]

  whatever problems you're trapped into [TS]

  the bubble of your friend but that's [TS]

  that's which turned my friends happen to [TS]

  be nerd i love that song trapped in the [TS]

  bubble of my friend of scientists way [TS]

  back to the origin you know how it is i [TS]

  find the kind of the little other things [TS]

  and and it's it's their it I feel it [TS]

  lost sometimes because there's so much [TS]

  out there that i know i'm missing and I [TS]

  i have you should use 12 OCT 10 0 as [TS]

  it's totally unlike most people of our [TS]

  ilk and I want to be able to be a [TS]

  completist but also sample widely and [TS]

  with the a limited amount of time that I [TS]

  have I don't know where to find things [TS]

  that would blow me away that aren't what [TS]

  I'm normally consumer and you can get [TS]

  some of that from word-of-mouth but you [TS]

  know you're missing the things that just [TS]

  didn't like I said we know about the [TS]

  flophouse if John siracusa hadn't worked [TS]

  with dan McCoy's brother [TS]

  I mean that's such a random connection [TS]

  right and and that goes for almost [TS]

  anything that we would discover it's [TS]

  like how do i hear about you named the [TS]

  favorite book favorite artists [TS]

  maybe through luck it got here but [TS]

  there's gotta be [TS]

  would think that this technology would [TS]

  enable us to do as a child and that [TS]

  every problem can be solved with [TS]

  technology i'm sure i'm including a [TS]

  personal and emotional problems [TS]

  yeah and you're going on a pit stops all [TS]

  some of that I like that I i want this [TS]

  social problem solved as well and my [TS]

  approach is technological but that's [TS]

  maybe not the right approach that's the [TS]

  hammer i have to hit this particular [TS]

  nail I just that I feel like the [TS]

  allowing people to create was no 8 [TS]

  age-old you know they're painting on [TS]

  cave walls they have an impetus to [TS]

  create now extending my cave paintings [TS]

  there and and for a long time [TS]

  traditional media methods built up in [TS]

  order to distribute this stuff and they [TS]

  became ossified and inefficient and then [TS]

  new technology has come in and and her [TS]

  damaged a lot of that's traditional [TS]

  things while replacing it with new stuff [TS]

  that is more egalitarian more democratic [TS]

  more open to alternative voices you know [TS]

  the the gatekeepers argument well i [TS]

  think that you know but but what's the [TS]

  next step [TS]

  where do we go am I being impatient [TS]

  because we're still undergoing the [TS]

  previous revolution partly really i mean [TS]

  i think we'll what's nice is that is [TS]

  that like now there are also a lot of [TS]

  hammers but you can but one thing about [TS]

  the the only want to be hammered by [TS]

  somebody else and we're back to that [TS]

  again for huh i was thinking it is [TS]

  better but what's interesting about [TS]

  about it all was the indie stuff that is [TS]

  being talked about here is that you have [TS]

  a lot more I know [TS]

  audience participation that's not really [TS]

  the right term but but you have more [TS]

  like direct interaction more people [TS]

  yeah who like your thing who are willing [TS]

  to to to spread that message I mean like [TS]

  I i think with indie game one of the [TS]

  things that they talked about you people [TS]

  that are on getting all this i think um [TS]

  was it straight friends like like they [TS]

  would go and do screenings in different [TS]

  places but they would have volunteers [TS]

  who would like set them up there and [TS]

  like look like advanced people that [TS]

  because they love this thing right are [TS]

  willing to do work half of having that [TS]

  connection you you would go to the mat [TS]

  like I would read books favorite books [TS]

  as a kid and that the novelist was [TS]

  literally [TS]

  the name on the cover and I knew nothing [TS]

  more about them and that that doesn't [TS]

  happen today right i mean that and with [TS]

  made big artist it does but with the [TS]

  smartest you feel like you know them you [TS]

  you hear them on a podcast or you follow [TS]

  them on Twitter and you would go it's a [TS]

  funny thing about human societies in the [TS]

  way we're kind of Wired is you would go [TS]

  to the mat for some because they're not [TS]

  they're no longer this person who is a [TS]

  musician they're like I know that person [TS]

  you have back-channel to them you can [TS]

  subscribe to their twitter account you [TS]

  can read their blog suddenly there's a [TS]

  conversation going on even if it's not [TS]

  my strength I was the writer it's not [TS]

  sign out there I work and then there's [TS]

  much more intimate connection speed that [TS]

  is also i think there's the danger is if [TS]

  there is a jerk there's a problem but [TS]

  why does that happen to you Jason you [TS]

  whippersnapper [TS]

  what are you tired i'm not talking about [TS]

  anybody here know I'm talkin about 10 [TS]

  more now other than that there's a [TS]

  result in sorry I didn't look for [TS]

  recommendations we talked about this [TS]

  before my friends that's like there's [TS]

  people who go for the so from the [TS]

  artist's perspective they now have [TS]

  possibly right there's people go to the [TS]

  mat for them they're people who have [TS]

  very little some audience people who [TS]

  read or bi or enjoy their stuff a much [TS]

  smaller audience and true fans but the [TS]

  true fans now have a way to spread the [TS]

  true religion in a way they didn't [TS]

  before right so i have people and it's [TS]

  actually exciting I people are out there [TS]

  saying like you should listen to the new [TS]

  disrupted by the way people how to do [TS]

  these references or or what i read the [TS]

  magazine or whatever i'm working on and [TS]

  it's exciting to Jeff cross those people [TS]

  read his book and you know you should [TS]

  get this book there's usually blog for [TS]

  the only way to spread that people have [TS]

  to find a blog news RSS whatever in the [TS]

  old days the old and it is well here we [TS]

  know and tell you already got 10 years [TS]

  ago but now I think that there's an [TS]

  acceleration is that you get the viral [TS]

  edge and so projects like indie game or [TS]

  things that are going to the glyph is [TS]

  the classic when the ipod or ipad iphone [TS]

  tripod-mounted is a these guys went from [TS]

  zero to you know hundred thousand [TS]

  dollars in 2010 i think it was for this [TS]

  plastic they were x XOXO last year too [TS]

  that's right and they and then they've [TS]

  done stuff ever since but the but they [TS]

  got there because a few people saw it [TS]

  was fascinating and pushed it out to [TS]

  some influencers you have the dairy [TS]

  fireballs that were [TS]

  and don't dig may come back yet and [TS]

  other sites and things that you go to [TS]

  where if it's mentioned i know somebody [TS]

  like twitter is fascinating where you [TS]

  could have something with five million [TS]

  followers will mention one kind of thing [TS]

  and nothing happens to be like really [TS]

  like LA and it's crickets anything [TS]

  that's another thing and 50,000 people [TS]

  pledge twenty dollars in five minutes [TS]

  yeah it's it seems to me that what we're [TS]

  saying here is that we've revolutionized [TS]

  the ability to distribute and create [TS]

  independently but it's all still really [TS]

  random when it comes to discovery and [TS]

  market is stolen and famous well I mean [TS]

  and that's why you get this tendency to [TS]

  have stuff by famous people stuff by [TS]

  existing artists things like that [TS]

  because they it's a perfect time for [TS]

  there's other ways because they're good [TS]

  they're good at I think that I think the [TS]

  ones that excel this the most are um you [TS]

  know like musical artists and and maybe [TS]

  some writers but I think about the [TS]

  musical artists that have a fan of a fan [TS]

  base that's too small that there they [TS]

  were big they had one hit ten years ago [TS]

  they had four hits 20 years ago or [TS]

  something like that and there you know [TS]

  they can go from effort to every city [TS]

  and and get a thousand people but that [TS]

  there as a you know it's too [TS]

  it's not hot enough they're not they're [TS]

  not a superstar and I think it used to [TS]

  be really hard for them and I think it's [TS]

  easier now I think that some of them [TS]

  saying playing 200 state fairs a year is [TS]

  not a great one looking well they're [TS]

  really retro and if you don't like i'm [TS]

  thinking more like musical artists that [TS]

  whenever they were never the rolling [TS]

  stones and and they were never journey [TS]

  right where they were huge and now [TS]

  they're very small and they replaced the [TS]

  lead singer and still bitter about that [TS]

  but uh sorry journey but that's a lot of [TS]

  podcasts variability we already did our [TS]

  podcast on journey we're going to st [TS]

  mary's pipettes that's just an example [TS]

  which is the other oceans is three [TS]

  sisters to perform years ago they were [TS]

  fairly popular folk song act and one of [TS]

  them is the mother of the rufus [TS]

  wainwright the 1300 former and so [TS]

  they're kind of this circle and one of [TS]

  them tried to raise money think was [TS]

  zeros try to raise money on IndieGoGo [TS]

  and did [TS]

  reach a goal for it because it was so [TS]

  different than anything you've ever done [TS]

  if she'd try to do another album of the [TS]

  kind of stuff people that like her [TS]

  producing for a 30-plus years I think [TS]

  she would have even easily succeeded [TS]

  this trouble for that kind of artist [TS]

  where they want to shift direction then [TS]

  these mechanisms don't necessarily work [TS]

  is kickstarter exbest as either i'm [TS]

  really famous and I want to do a thing [TS]

  that's different than a thing or you [TS]

  know me sort of and I want to do another [TS]

  thing that's so much like the things you [TS]

  like that you'll find this because you [TS]

  want another one of those things you [TS]

  like one of the things about XOXO and [TS]

  about the enthusiasm that we're talking [TS]

  about here for these new methods is that [TS]

  not many people are talking about the [TS]

  failures about the difficulties of his [TS]

  system that that this is a very survivor [TS]

  biased tape on the new strands is that [TS]

  we talked about the successes because [TS]

  they're the interesting things we talked [TS]

  about the people who haven't really [TS]

  working but there are also people that [TS]

  have put their passion into it put into [TS]

  the system and then it doesn't play [TS]

  I thought about doing a couple different [TS]

  to Kickstarter projects and I'm [TS]

  terrified to do it because i'm i'm [TS]

  almost certain that it will fail and it [TS]

  what about your marinated unquestioning [TS]

  fanbase minus minefield looking up on [TS]

  going out myself by myself live and [TS]

  reminded that i was going to do a quick [TS]

  kick start background actually I know [TS]

  anyone with two problems are several [TS]

  problems and I learned a lot from it i [TS]

  started the podcast and change my whole [TS]

  life but that this is over a year ago [TS]

  and one of them was I said the reward [TS]

  levels too high that's pretty clear [TS]

  there's issues there but the other one [TS]

  was people I've never written a book [TS]

  like this i don't have an audience yet [TS]

  the new structures help me build an [TS]

  audience that might be interested in [TS]

  buying a book of the kind of wrote third [TS]

  thing was people thought I was joking [TS]

  because people know I joke and Twitter [TS]

  and I'm like I'm i'm writing a [TS]

  crowdfunding a book about crowdfunding [TS]

  was very mad haha like no really so I [TS]

  think everybody's tender people what you [TS]

  always have a Kickstarter so you could [TS]

  produce a Kickstarter to do your book [TS]

  that's what I'm working on that but it's [TS]

  a variance that was the other hand [TS]

  conception or interpretation but but I [TS]

  didn't you know what the key is can you [TS]

  learn from your failures in that regard [TS]

  and I totally did and I've done a lot of [TS]

  things I feel very successful as an [TS]

  outcome [TS]

  and I'm the new disruptors podcast is my [TS]

  attempt to build an audience says Oh [TS]

  Glenn does this thing maybe a book [TS]

  version of or some other version of this [TS]

  thing that he's been doing for a year or [TS]

  two years would not be worth I don't [TS]

  need to put you on the spot why haven't [TS]

  you talked about that about the failure [TS]

  yeah I did actually SI but you just [TS]

  don't read everything i would not meet [TS]

  every time haha it's a full-time job and [TS]

  salary [TS]

  whens Kickstarter is going to be a book [TS]

  starts a hundred-thousand-dollar [TS]

  genomics it's a book series following [TS]

  our mechanical turk degree the Thousand [TS]

  Islands i wrote a post to the time and [TS]

  actually some forgot the site some site [TS]

  that is the thing which was like haha [TS]

  crowd funding grant money transfer book [TS]

  doesn't go and i taught that doesn't [TS]

  fire and I talked to the guy is like all [TS]

  this is actually you know I'm sorry [TS]

  nearly exactly funny it was like I [TS]

  understand what sounds funny and he went [TS]

  back and he broke something was actually [TS]

  fairly reasonable when i explained like [TS]

  here's the five or six things that are [TS]

  wrong and I didn't cost me that cost me [TS]

  time for us Jeff Rossen shoot the videos [TS]

  that cost him time to but what I didn't [TS]

  have any hard costs feeling into it and [TS]

  then I've developed a whole new career [TS]

  and I think that's awesome and I wish we [TS]

  had more stories like that the this [TS]

  there's hype around this man is just a [TS]

  probable light right but there's also an [TS]

  entire other side of it for things that [TS]

  don't work and how we fix that now [TS]

  before we go really quickly i wanted to [TS]

  because we're running out of time I [TS]

  wanted to go around the table and which [TS]

  is an actual table because we're sitting [TS]

  at a table and just really briefly if [TS]

  you've got some specific thing that you [TS]

  want to mention that you that you've [TS]

  enjoyed or supported that was a an indie [TS]

  project or something that is just out of [TS]

  the traditional means because I know [TS]

  that that's what we usually talk about [TS]

  on the podcast and I wanted to at least [TS]

  able for us to give some shouts out to [TS]

  two ND stuff that we liked Greg to you [TS]

  you haven't some things you want to [TS]

  promote one of the first web comics ever [TS]

  started reading and it was eons ago was [TS]

  lucky freelance and that's actually been [TS]

  going for 16 years now and he's been [TS]

  doing it as a full-time job for 12 I [TS]

  think wow and it is insane [TS]

  it is an epic epic story in comic strip [TS]

  form it's hilarious [TS]

  it's well-drawn you can see his art [TS]

  improving over the past 16 years along [TS]

  with his characterizations and the depth [TS]

  of his story he will [TS]

  reference things from a decade ago and [TS]

  if you happen to have that knowledge it [TS]

  makes the the interaction so let your [TS]

  deeper and so when I started reading it [TS]

  like 10 12 years ago I went back and it [TS]

  during a slow time at work and I read [TS]

  six years of archives and I've kept up [TS]

  with it ever since [TS]

  and that was my first real interaction [TS]

  with somebody who was doing something on [TS]

  the side that had a level of success and [TS]

  allowed him to go ahead and do it [TS]

  full-time [TS]

  alright cool Jeff what about you [TS]

  actually I don't have anything to [TS]

  recommend because i'm on that that that [TS]

  other side which is like like I'm the [TS]

  beneficiary of all of this like there's [TS]

  this great podcast called the [TS]

  incomparable that that that has 11 i was [TS]

  going to recommend that i'll go ahead [TS]

  it's led me to wonderful things yeah [TS]

  yes is the jibber on about yeah just one [TS]

  or two yeah that's got McNulty you can't [TS]

  shut up i'm touching likes but but you [TS]

  know like you for example Jason like I [TS]

  never done you just wanna do dis ruptor [TS]

  your new disruptive i feel like i'm [TS]

  reading comics now because of your [TS]

  recommendation and and and and more and [TS]

  then I think that that you know i would [TS]

  probably miss a lot of the indie stuff [TS]

  like I'm the target market out to say oh [TS]

  like here's something that's interesting [TS]

  and and usually it's because you know [TS]

  like Glenn has has contributed to a [TS]

  kickstarter and because i have had done [TS]

  stuff in the past i get a thing from [TS]

  them saying when freshman did this maybe [TS]

  you will be like right yeah that's [TS]

  totally what so you're the recipient of [TS]

  the word of mouth from these projects [TS]

  and end up supporting some of them are [TS]

  reading the comics or whatever yes [TS]

  you're listening to yeah exactly it and [TS]

  now I want to add one more thing what [TS]

  greg was seen that jack chang who who [TS]

  spoke he wrote a novel called these days [TS]

  one of the things that was great about [TS]

  his talk was that you know he talked [TS]

  about how great it is to to to crowdfund [TS]

  that his is novel which I thought was [TS]

  sort of weird at first like like it [TS]

  can you just write the novel and then go [TS]

  searching for it but you know like the [TS]

  different models but then he said he's [TS]

  like oh and you don't have to quit your [TS]

  day job like this italia sigh thing [TS]

  right and I'm [TS]

  my living doing something else which [TS]

  like sounded kind of refreshing here [TS]

  because it like most of things always [TS]

  get guess somebody somebody understand [TS]

  their jobs seriously considering [TS]

  starting a conference called don't quit [TS]

  your day job is about being an [TS]

  independent content creator he sort of [TS]

  fulfilling your dream while also meeting [TS]

  your family your family isn't yeah he [TS]

  said I expected value of the speakers [TS]

  will be middle-aged people with families [TS]

  gonna really gonna do it wasn't like it [TS]

  was great to be able to hear that 24 in [TS]

  the afternoon yeah go home to bed now it [TS]

  starts at seven at night and engines [TS]

  love you [TS]

  what about you oh well uh i was looking [TS]

  through i was looking through my [TS]

  Kickstarter back to things because i [TS]

  think i've put most of my effort into [TS]

  supporting stuff that's wound up on [TS]

  kickstarter and I flaming carrot comics [TS]

  they did this great Kickstarter where [TS]

  it's like I don't even know Bob burden [TS]

  the Creator is still alive he's kind of [TS]

  can't figure if he's actually crazy or [TS]

  he has an incredibly good active and [TS]

  sustaining for decades i think its a mix [TS]

  about but he put out a Kickstarter to [TS]

  finish some stuff put it about deluxe [TS]

  collection he threw in all kinds of [TS]

  weird stuff and it's a it's one of the [TS]

  most surreal comics i forgot i even [TS]

  known issues i have a pile of them from [TS]

  the early days and and it was great so I [TS]

  back that and I was delighted to see [TS]

  something that was truly in the end of [TS]

  indie spirit 30 20 30 years ago with [TS]

  they did everything on their own and [TS]

  they kind of went out of some of the [TS]

  comic book labels and come back and see [TS]

  some new material and collection the old [TS]

  stuff very cool and I'm i mentioned a [TS]

  bunch of stuff earlier you have these [TS]

  wool being a successful nanowrimo novel [TS]

  that turned into a successful self [TS]

  published novel that is now a successful [TS]

  actually professionally published novel [TS]

  and it's pretty good so check it out [TS]

  well this wraps up our time in the one [TS]

  in this little room i also want to give [TS]

  a thanks to luma labs for providing the [TS]

  space they are the makers of fine [TS]

  product called cinch cinch which if you [TS]

  are a photographer and you want to have [TS]

  your SLR not be annoying to you and [TS]

  readily available to take pictures the [TS]

  Cinch is here we were getting struct [TS]

  yeah that's sort of it kind of murder [TS]

  and go to luma dad has [TS]

  dot-com you put it around your they [TS]

  didn't even know we were going to [TS]

  mention the biggest space and we really [TS]

  appreciate a great conductor for letting [TS]

  us a barge into their space on sunday [TS]

  morning and record this so thanks to [TS]

  them and i would like to thank my guests [TS]

  for gathering around this table Glenn [TS]

  fleischmann thanks for being here [TS]

  I didn't mention Stephen Fry just want [TS]

  you to know you did actually using it [TS]

  nice try nice try Jeff girls and thanks [TS]

  for being back I can't wait till we do [TS]

  another life never liked that the only [TS]

  time I into your life you don't show up [TS]

  on on recording so we live and great NOS [TS]

  thank you again for showing up like I [TS]

  can't wait until we do another life but [TS]

  ya be on the podcast some other time [TS]

  yeah to do you have a family history and [TS]

  science really busy creating yes I know [TS]

  that's right independent content [TS]

  creation of code someone sound like [TS]

  earlier yeah I didn't tell you what I [TS]

  was created planned and then and for the [TS]

  comfortable i'm your host Jason don't [TS]

  thanks for listening and guys did you [TS]

  think anybody noticed that we were naked [TS]

  when we recorded this [TS]