Hypercritical

66: The Housewives of Siracusa County

 

  [Music] [TS]

  this is hypercritical weekly talkshow [TS]

  ruminating on exactly what is wrong in [TS]

  the world of Apple and related [TS]

  technologies and businesses nothing is [TS]

  so perfect that it can't be complained [TS]

  about by my co-host John siracusa I'm [TS]

  Dan Benjamin this is episode number 66 [TS]

  it's Friday May 4 2012 [TS]

  I want to say thanks very much to our [TS]

  three sponsors today tap typing [TS]

  Squarespace and text astok tell you more [TS]

  about them as the show goes on we want [TS]

  to also say thanks to a friend of 5x5 [TS]

  Jory [TS]

  Raphael who does all of the amazing show [TS]

  artwork that you see on 5x5 he did the [TS]

  logo among other things well he has an [TS]

  awesome icon set called symbolic cons [TS]

  comm and he is the one secretly [TS]

  providing and subsidizing our bandwidth [TS]

  for this month so go check out symbolic [TS]

  cons com thanks very much to him for [TS]

  doing that [TS]

  John greeting sir how are you I went [TS]

  back to programming yeah why not it's [TS]

  what you do it's what you do best [TS]

  might be Perl it up right that's what I [TS]

  was doing all right you want do show [TS]

  sure why not how are you doing fine [TS]

  feels like a long time since we've done [TS]

  a show I had just been a week seems like [TS]

  a lot longer just a week got another one [TS]

  of those shows today what does that mean [TS]

  shows that they're just saturated with [TS]

  follow up oh oh that's that's your [TS]

  favorite kind of show though no it's [TS]

  kind of getting becoming a mix now [TS]

  because a lot of the follow up things [TS]

  like what if you're following up on [TS]

  something that's from like last year is [TS]

  that still follow up are you talking [TS]

  about a new thing [TS]

  if you've ever mentioned it before then [TS]

  by definition is follow yeah I'm on the [TS]

  long graph it seems like everything [TS]

  eventually is follow up right yeah that [TS]

  no that makes sense in the long term [TS]

  we're all dead Dan all right on that [TS]

  note [TS]

  let's start alright there were some [TS]

  small ones fall up a Pattaya michael de [TS]

  gusta wrote in to say that in all his [TS]

  listening on 5x5 about WWC stuff across [TS]

  several different shows lots of [TS]

  different people talked about it he [TS]

  didn't hear anyone mentioned the idea of [TS]

  pronouncing the on sale date and time [TS]

  now I listen to a lot of these shows to [TS]

  him I thought this was actually [TS]

  mentioned by someone but I'm pretty sure [TS]

  wasn't mentioned by me so in that regard [TS]

  at least he's right [TS]

  now the idea is that if these tickets [TS]

  are going to sell out the least Apple [TS]

  can do is announce like okay in two [TS]

  weeks the tickets are going to go on [TS]

  sale at 8 a.m. Eastern Time whatever so [TS]

  that people around the world can decide [TS]

  then to stay up late or whatever instead [TS]

  of sleeping in their beds with their [TS]

  cell phones next to their head hoping [TS]

  they're going to be notified by some [TS]

  sort of alert system just simply pre [TS]

  announce the date and that would give a [TS]

  more fair shot to everybody who wants to [TS]

  just clamor to get the tickets [TS]

  immediately I'm not sure why they don't [TS]

  do that other than apples usual policy [TS]

  of never pre announcing anything they [TS]

  tell you when they're available and then [TS]

  they're available and I'm also not sure [TS]

  for our how much how much happier that [TS]

  would make everybody involved I don't [TS]

  know I guess it would make the people on [TS]

  the other side of the world happier but [TS]

  would they really be happy if they [TS]

  stayed up until 3 a.m. and still didn't [TS]

  get tickets so there's that downside as [TS]

  well but it's it's worth mentioning the [TS]

  idea of pre announcing the on sale time [TS]

  even though that's definitely not an [TS]

  Apple style thing to do we'll see next [TS]

  year if they consider that maurice kelly [TS]

  has a little bit of follow up about [TS]

  we're talking about things for sale in [TS]

  the ios app store that can only list [TS]

  their requirements based on what [TS]

  features they want but not based on the [TS]

  actual model of a phone or whatever so [TS]

  there was an example of a game that only [TS]

  ran on the 3GS but there was no way for [TS]

  the developer to specify that because [TS]

  you can only specify the features that [TS]

  you want and someone wrote in [TS]

  subsequently saying well if you just [TS]

  simply specify that you need a [TS]

  front-facing camera that would eliminate [TS]

  for example the ipad one from contention [TS]

  even if you're you know you don't need a [TS]

  camera for your game if you just [TS]

  that is a requirement then you will [TS]

  eliminate the iPad one from the in from [TS]

  the requirement sidebar then someone [TS]

  else wrote in and I think I agreed with [TS]

  the idea that Apple might frown upon [TS]

  that practice of you know saying okay my [TS]

  game doesn't really need a front-facing [TS]

  camera but I'm going to listed in the [TS]

  requirements anyway just to get the [TS]

  result I want on the website because I [TS]

  don't want people being confused by the [TS]

  requirements that make it seem like you [TS]

  can run this on your iPhone 3G or on [TS]

  your iPad one over time when you can't [TS]

  and so Maurice Kelly points out that [TS]

  Apple itself uh he was does this with [TS]

  iPhoto he was prohibited from buying [TS]

  iPhoto for iOS because he lacks a [TS]

  front-facing camera now I don't know if [TS]

  I thought we uses the front-facing [TS]

  camera I can you take a picture from [TS]

  within iPhoto it seems like you probably [TS]

  can't you can take it from the Photos [TS]

  app I guess but if Apple itself is not [TS]

  beyond doing this that doesn't mean that [TS]

  developers are free to do it as well but [TS]

  I guess is something developers can [TS]

  experiment with if you want to waste two [TS]

  weeks of your life [TS]

  submit your game with the requirement [TS]

  says you need a front-facing camera and [TS]

  see if the person who looks at it says [TS]

  sorry rejected your game doesn't [TS]

  actually use the camera please send it [TS]

  back with different requirements I'm not [TS]

  sure many people want to run that [TS]

  experiment it was last show when I was [TS]

  complaining about the new Gmail UI I [TS]

  mentioned the contacts were hidden away [TS]

  inside Gmail and that there wasn't a [TS]

  separate context at google.com via [TS]

  reticle site apparently there is [TS]

  emmerich writes in to tell me that there [TS]

  are there is a contact google.com and he [TS]

  uses it all the time and it's been [TS]

  around forever but I've never actually [TS]

  used it so there you go if you're [TS]

  looking for your contacts and you can't [TS]

  find them in Gmail just go to context [TS]

  google comm and you will find it's their [TS]

  family friends family acquaintances and [TS]

  circles and then there's something [TS]

  called most contacted other contacts are [TS]

  you or your Google contacts a mess I [TS]

  don't pay any attention to them I mean I [TS]

  never use this stuff mine RMS like I [TS]

  have a fighting chance kind of of [TS]

  managing my contacts in the address book [TS]

  but my Google contacts are just a big [TS]

  hairy mess and I cannot figure out what [TS]

  the problem is [TS]

  and it bothers me a lot because I would [TS]

  like [TS]

  - you know the original complaint was [TS]

  Google context it's like Oh every time I [TS]

  email somebody it adds in to my contacts [TS]

  list so Google said okay we can fix that [TS]

  while I add an option that says please [TS]

  don't add people to my context when I [TS]

  email them but that's not the solution [TS]

  like because then they don't appear in [TS]

  your autocomplete history or what you [TS]

  want to have is don't add every single [TS]

  contact the email to my address book but [TS]

  do add them to the autocomplete list in [TS]

  case I want to email them to the N again [TS]

  and I actually haven't tried turning it [TS]

  off because I do want the autocomplete [TS]

  the work I just basically ignore the [TS]

  contacts but it bothers me when I go [TS]

  into my contacts and I see it just a big [TS]

  mess with like a million duplicates and [TS]

  just knowing knowing it's out there [TS]

  bothers you well here's the here's the [TS]

  practical effect of it somehow I don't [TS]

  know how this happens but I'll be [TS]

  looking like my my a diem or a diem as [TS]

  the developers say buddy list and I'll [TS]

  see a window with a bunch of chat from [TS]

  somebody and I'll have the wrong name [TS]

  next to them it'll say like Bob Smith [TS]

  but I will see a bunch of chat from [TS]

  somebody who I know is not Bob Smith and [TS]

  I'll say what back is going on so I like [TS]

  right click on them in the Buddy list [TS]

  and see what the deal is and I will find [TS]

  that there's an ADM contact that has [TS]

  8,000 email addresses gmail email [TS]

  addresses and IIM names under it and [TS]

  some random alias you know it says Bob [TS]

  Smith like what who why does this [TS]

  contact have all these people's Gmail [TS]

  and gtalk and aim addresses them and [TS]

  then it says Bob Smith this is these are [TS]

  like 17 different people and then I'll [TS]

  go to my Google contacts listen I'll [TS]

  find sure enough I found a contact [TS]

  called Bob Smith that has a thousand [TS]

  email addresses attached to it and a [TS]

  whole bunch of AI AM addresses attached [TS]

  to it I don't know how that thing came [TS]

  to be and why it has all these things [TS]

  attached to it you know like literally [TS]

  fifty to a hundred email addresses Gmail [TS]

  addresses gtalk things and and names [TS]

  attached under some random name so I [TS]

  deleted I clean it all out and I forget [TS]

  about it and then it comes back I'm [TS]

  always afraid that I'm going to be [TS]

  talking to someone no I think oh I think [TS]

  I'm talking to one person I'll be [TS]

  talking to someone entirely different [TS]

  you know I got to keep right-clicking my [TS]

  contacts to make sure I know who they [TS]

  are so Google contacts angers me I [TS]

  haven't quite figured we didn't need [TS]

  that sidebar there all right that's one [TS]

  here's an email from Jason Gregory who [TS]

  was nice to point out that his [TS]

  name which is spelled G re G Ori is [TS]

  pronounced like the first name Gregory [TS]

  but not like Grigory which is exactly [TS]

  how I was going to pronounce that he [TS]

  says some reason everyone wants to put a [TS]

  big emphasis on a second G so I wanted [TS]

  to do I don't know why I see GRE GRE I [TS]

  want to say Grigory but no it's Jason [TS]

  Gregory so thank you for the [TS]

  appreciation guy he says that when I was [TS]

  talking about WOD C and how you get to [TS]

  talk to Apple developers and stuff he [TS]

  says he went to WC last year for the [TS]

  first time and didn't really get to do [TS]

  that he says I'm kind of shy and didn't [TS]

  know anyone else there let alone [TS]

  well-known personality like you guys I'm [TS]

  going again this year I was wondering if [TS]

  you'd give me some advice on about [TS]

  talking to Apple developers so there's [TS]

  two parts of that the first thing is [TS]

  what I was talking about when I said you [TS]

  developers want to go to WABC to talk to [TS]

  to the Apple engineers you can make an [TS]

  appointment to see an Apple engineer [TS]

  about a specific topic where you sit [TS]

  down in the lab with them and look at [TS]

  your source code and ask them your a [TS]

  specific question so like nothing to do [TS]

  with social anything is let they have an [TS]

  actual I don't know how hard it is to [TS]

  get those appointments maybe it may be [TS]

  there it's difficult to get them but I [TS]

  bet during the course of the week you [TS]

  will be able to get a slot with an [TS]

  appointment with the person you know [TS]

  with a with a particular person that you [TS]

  want to talk to maybe you don't know [TS]

  them by name but you just say hey I need [TS]

  someone to help me with core data I [TS]

  which by the way in the previous show I [TS]

  thought I was saying core data the [TS]

  entire time and apparently I was saying [TS]

  core foundation which is also a thing [TS]

  but it was not what I meant to say mouth [TS]

  and brain that connected so so that's [TS]

  the first thing you can actually make [TS]

  appointments in the labs and you will [TS]

  get to talk to an Apple engineer just [TS]

  you one-on-one by appointment no social [TS]

  anything necessary now the second thing [TS]

  is I'm totally the wrong person to talk [TS]

  to about how to socially find Apple [TS]

  engineers and talk to them [TS]

  because I don't know most of their names [TS]

  and I'm just lucky enough that some of [TS]

  them might happen to know my name and I [TS]

  get to talk to them so that is if you [TS]

  are not a social butterfly and don't [TS]

  know how to navigate that world and make [TS]

  friends with people and stuff it may be [TS]

  difficult to find the people you want to [TS]

  talk to in in a sort of organic social [TS]

  setting because before and after they [TS]

  give their that they give their talks I [TS]

  mean usually after someone gives a [TS]

  session you can kind of hang around and [TS]

  talk to them for a few minutes but [TS]

  really like the room is going to be used [TS]

  for another session and they've got [TS]

  somewhere to be and it's not is not the [TS]

  ideal environment I don't know [TS]

  advice to give you to try to find people [TS]

  outside of a structured environment so I [TS]

  would say make an appointment in the [TS]

  labs try to hang out afterwards to talk [TS]

  to someone you're interested in but [TS]

  maybe just say like hey can is there any [TS]

  time you can talk with me later if they [TS]

  just gave a talk about something you [TS]

  have more questions - or maybe they can [TS]

  direct you to someone else at the end of [TS]

  every session they also have a slide [TS]

  that says if you have any questions [TS]

  email such-and-such a person who's [TS]

  usually not the person who gave the [TS]

  presentation but hits some [TS]

  representative of this group or whatever [TS]

  so write down those email addresses and [TS]

  make contacts and maybe I guess the [TS]

  other thing I suggest is start following [TS]

  Apple employees and Apple developers and [TS]

  people indirectly related to them on [TS]

  Twitter and start communicating with [TS]

  them that way in a nice and respectful [TS]

  constructive manner and maybe they will [TS]

  notice your niceness and [TS]

  constructiveness and interest and you [TS]

  can form some kind of relationship with [TS]

  them 140 characters at a time and then [TS]

  maybe say hey I'm going to wotc will you [TS]

  be there blah blah blah that's one way [TS]

  you might be able to get to know people [TS]

  if you are also very shy and don't know [TS]

  how to do it because that's one of the [TS]

  great things about Twitter I think is [TS]

  that it's one it's a medium where you [TS]

  can end up having person-to-person [TS]

  contact with people you would never [TS]

  otherwise have contact with like they're [TS]

  never going to answer your email there [TS]

  your emails them probably goes to some [TS]

  sort of handle or PR firm because [TS]

  they're too big or famous type of [TS]

  celebrities or whatever but on any [TS]

  random day some celebrities are very [TS]

  needy people and they will say you know [TS]

  I'm up late at night and I'm a famous [TS]

  celebrity ask me anything and I will [TS]

  answer your questions and it's 3m where [TS]

  they are and it's a normal time where [TS]

  you are and you tweet them something and [TS]

  they tweet you back and you just had a [TS]

  140 character exchange with a famous [TS]

  person who you would never have contact [TS]

  with otherwise that's not so useful for [TS]

  celebrities but for Apple engineers [TS]

  again you're never allowed you know this [TS]

  person even worked at Apple or or who [TS]

  they wore whatever but you can find them [TS]

  through social networks on Twitter and [TS]

  sometimes they're bored and 140 [TS]

  characters not a big commitment and [TS]

  again they were probably never answer an [TS]

  email if you emailed them directly they [TS]

  would redirect you to develop all [TS]

  technical services or whatever but on [TS]

  Twitter they might send you a reply [TS]

  about something so give that a try but I [TS]

  will reiterate asking me for advice on [TS]

  social things it's probably not a good [TS]

  so I lounge has a one of those typical [TS]

  rumor stories that we start to see about [TS]

  like what is the next iPhone going to [TS]

  look like I thought this was a [TS]

  noteworthy not because I lend any [TS]

  particularly credence to it remember all [TS]

  the wedge rumors last year and we've got [TS]

  all these liquid metal rumors going [TS]

  around so we this is the season of every [TS]

  possible rumor about the phone you could [TS]

  imagine I linked to in the show notes [TS]

  though because I thought it was a nice [TS]

  sort of summation of the rumors that [TS]

  we've talked about elsewhere if you were [TS]

  to combine them all together and say [TS]

  what could this kind of look like they [TS]

  did some nice pictures of it so they're [TS]

  the one that they did was bigger [TS]

  you know taller screen as we discussed [TS]

  but also thinner and they put a metal [TS]

  back on the phone instead of a glass one [TS]

  and they made you know the glass to [TS]

  store more stuff like us but the thing I [TS]

  took away from their little mock-ups was [TS]

  that if you make the iPhone a little bit [TS]

  bigger but you get some thinness and [TS]

  return for that it does it makes the [TS]

  phone look new and the bigness of it [TS]

  like it's not you know humongous like [TS]

  some of the Android phones but the [TS]

  bigness of it is compensated I think by [TS]

  the thinness and it kind of makes the [TS]

  existing phone look squat and fat which [TS]

  is usually what you want from new apple [TS]

  Harbor you wanted to admit make the old [TS]

  one look crappy so just seeing that you [TS]

  know the mock-up they have of this [TS]

  fantasy phone the data snot and it's not [TS]

  a ridiculous fantasies only two [TS]

  millimeters thinner right but they [TS]

  didn't you know a 3d rendering program [TS]

  and I'm assuming it's all to scale and [TS]

  they made the screen taller but not [TS]

  wider and it's a four inch diagonal [TS]

  screen now right just looking at that [TS]

  and then looking at you know my wife's [TS]

  iPhone 4s sitting here already it starts [TS]

  to look cool so I think a design like [TS]

  that a larger phone that happens to be a [TS]

  little bit thinner would be visually [TS]

  successful in making people feel that [TS]

  their old phone is crappy and they need [TS]

  a new phone and it doesn't look too [TS]

  gargantuan and the other exciting thing [TS]

  about this and I think one of the reason [TS]

  a lot of people send it to me is that [TS]

  they put a new dock connector at the [TS]

  bottom in this room or think - they made [TS]

  it like a smaller dock connector with [TS]

  fewer pins and it looks it looks very [TS]

  similar to the speaker holes at the [TS]

  bottom of the iPhone 4s where it's a [TS]

  kind of like a rounded rectangular or [TS]

  pill shape I don't know that's likely at [TS]

  all or you know there's no technical [TS]

  details it could [TS]

  be another fantasy but you know I don't [TS]

  like the existing dock connector so I [TS]

  say thumbs up to that rumor I hope if [TS]

  they have produced the phone exactly [TS]

  like that rumored phone I would be [TS]

  completely satisfied with it I think it [TS]

  would be awesome so go for that Apple [TS]

  true speaking of fantasy prototype [TS]

  things here's one I tried to chase down [TS]

  the origin of this and I kind of went [TS]

  around in circles and it's very [TS]

  confusing to me because I don't [TS]

  understand the internet apparently but [TS]

  this is a YouTube video showing a new [TS]

  prototype of a way to type on the iPad [TS]

  did you see that video I did not I [TS]

  tweeted it the other day I'll send it to [TS]

  you now or is it not going to be in the [TS]

  show notes and isn't a show notes aw [TS]

  that's right you can just look at the [TS]

  show yeah there you go [TS]

  so do you see the iPad prototype thing I [TS]

  was trying to say like who made this [TS]

  prototype so when you go to the YouTube [TS]

  video you can see it seems like it's the [TS]

  we turn off my speakers before this gets [TS]

  noisy yeah you can see that it this [TS]

  looks like the original like the [TS]

  original video or whatever but then at [TS]

  the bottom it says I just saw Daniel [TS]

  Hooper's iPad keyboard demo what are you [TS]

  are you aren't you Daniel Hooper that [TS]

  the the YouTube user name is Daniel [TS]

  chase Hooper like I can't figure out [TS]

  that he make this why would he write in [TS]

  his own description that he draws saw [TS]

  his own it's confusing to me Biya [TS]

  because he was trying to promote it and [TS]

  hoping that people who link this up [TS]

  Whittle that text copy and paste that I [TS]

  guess like so he's writing it for you [TS]

  you should follow me on Twitter kind of [TS]

  thing like oh I can just copy and paste [TS]

  this that's why yeah and I did I saw [TS]

  this originally a Daniel Jacque had [TS]

  tweeted it and he sent it from one of [TS]

  those you know reblogging sites and [TS]

  every blogging site had basically copied [TS]

  and pasted the same thing there this [TS]

  thing is urging everyone to file a bug [TS]

  report as a duplicate of an existing [TS]

  radar to say you should do this thing so [TS]

  anyway uh have you been looking at this [TS]

  video here yeah I had not seen this [TS]

  before and the text selection is what [TS]

  jumps out at me is being pretty cool [TS]

  yeah that's the the big pitch here is [TS]

  that it's annoying to place the cursor [TS]

  in iOS you know you got to put your [TS]

  finger on the thing you got to hold it [TS]

  down and the little magnifying glass [TS]

  comes up and you swipe around and then [TS]

  if you want to select you hold down the [TS]

  thing and the pop-up comes you would [TS]

  select and then you move the little [TS]

  lollipop things too so [TS]

  stuff and this solution this video is [TS]

  that you can move the cursor I think you [TS]

  believe you could do this on a web OS [TS]

  where you can tell me couldn't you swipe [TS]

  like in the little swipey area on webOS [TS]

  to move the cursor left to right I don't [TS]

  know I'm pretty sure you can do that in [TS]

  Palm OS with a stylus but yeah swipe in [TS]

  the graffiti area to move the cursor so [TS]

  here it is like that it was just for [TS]

  backspace I don't think it was well [TS]

  selecting right so this this is moving [TS]

  the cursor byte by either holding down [TS]

  the modifier key on the keyboard and [TS]

  sliding your finger across the keyboard [TS]

  or doing double finger slide across the [TS]

  keyboard basically it allows you to move [TS]

  the insertion point by making but by [TS]

  making scrolling type gestures on the [TS]

  keyboard area as if it were a trackpad [TS]

  and as if you know you were moving the [TS]

  cursor on a screen but it moves the [TS]

  insertion point when you do that and you [TS]

  can move it quickly and slowly if it's [TS]

  moving you know basically changing the [TS]

  stÃ¥le scaling between how far you move [TS]

  your finger and how far the insertion [TS]

  point moves and obviously the guy doing [TS]

  this demo is an expert at the system [TS]

  he's created but it's impressive looking [TS]

  and exciting to me because I am extreme [TS]

  an extremely impatient computer user I [TS]

  don't know if this is a class of people [TS]

  who fall into this category but I've [TS]

  been like this since I was a kid so I [TS]

  remember get when I had my first Mac you [TS]

  know the Mac 128k and everything which [TS]

  granted was a dog slow machine but even [TS]

  on the Mac plus in the SC 30 or whatever [TS]

  the way I would use the computer is that [TS]

  I would you know I would arrange my [TS]

  finder just so and I would have [TS]

  everything set up and when I wanted to [TS]

  navigate into my games folder that I had [TS]

  in some subfolder or whatever back back [TS]

  in the day people who don't know this [TS]

  you could have brain you could have put [TS]

  the folders on your Mac anywhere any way [TS]

  you wanted the only one you couldn't [TS]

  touch as a system folder but everything [TS]

  else was you know fair game so I had [TS]

  this little world I'd created on my [TS]

  computer where the stuff was and I would [TS]

  double click a folder and then it would [TS]

  do that little rubber band animation and [TS]

  you know draw the new window and by the [TS]

  time the new window drew I would have my [TS]

  cursor poised over the spot where I knew [TS]

  the next icon I wanted to click was and [TS]

  the same thing with dialog boxes well if [TS]

  I went to you know save or something I [TS]

  would have my cursor poised over the [TS]

  button that in the dialog box so that [TS]

  when the dialog appeared I was exactly [TS]

  over a notice hit click so from my [TS]

  perspective I'm going through this [TS]

  interminable wait like I've sent a [TS]

  command that [TS]

  I was going to produce a dialog box now [TS]

  I'll bring the cursor over to where I [TS]

  know the dialog box will appear so that [TS]

  when it eventually appears the button I [TS]

  want to press will be banila my cursor [TS]

  now I wait tap-tap-tap seeing some [TS]

  little animation [TS]

  tap-tap-tap yes the 8 megahertz CPU or [TS]

  whatever it was grinding away okay [TS]

  rubber-banding it's drawing the window [TS]

  it's drawing the titlebar drawing the [TS]

  buttons and click that's what using [TS]

  computer was like to me as a kid I was [TS]

  like I cannot believe how slow these [TS]

  things are and when people like my uncle [TS]

  and my grandfather would come over and [TS]

  asked me to show them something on the [TS]

  computer and they would say we can't see [TS]

  anything there's it by the time any [TS]

  window drew I had already dismissed it [TS]

  because I don't clicked whatever button [TS]

  I wanted to click in it so I was just [TS]

  like the computer spent most of its time [TS]

  partially drawing windows and then I [TS]

  would click as soon as I knew that the [TS]

  window could accept input even if it [TS]

  hadn't completely drawn so this is and I [TS]

  still feel this way and this comes up in [TS]

  iOS because that wait when you press [TS]

  your finger down to place an insertion [TS]

  point feels like forever to me it feels [TS]

  like oh my god what am i doing I guess [TS]

  and my brain will start thinking about [TS]

  something else now what am I gonna have [TS]

  for dinner today I'm gonna you know when [TS]

  am I going to pick the kids up on up [TS]

  it's now I see it's it's put up the [TS]

  little magnifying glass now I can move [TS]

  the insertion point so this type of [TS]

  thing where there is no delay because it [TS]

  doesn't have to distinguish between [TS]

  tapping and tapping and holding I makes [TS]

  me very excited but as I said on Twitter [TS]

  when I tweeted this my fear is that [TS]

  Apple is not particularly gung-ho about [TS]

  indirect input on the iPad like the [TS]

  whole deal with the iPad is you touch [TS]

  where you want to do stuff which is why [TS]

  when you want to place the insertion [TS]

  point you jab your finger between the [TS]

  two letters where you want to push the [TS]

  insertion point and they don't really [TS]

  care that you have to wait for a delay [TS]

  because they're not most people are not [TS]

  crazy [TS]

  impatient computer users like I am but [TS]

  this thing is like now your keyboard is [TS]

  become a trackpad and it's indirect its [TS]

  indirect input it's different than like [TS]

  people saying oh they have the iOS [TS]

  gestures and stuff they do but those are [TS]

  kind of like Universal like pinch [TS]

  together to go back to the home screen [TS]

  doesn't really matter where you do that [TS]

  it's not like you're doing it you know [TS]

  you're not doing an action in one place [TS]

  and seeing a real-time reaction [TS]

  someplace else as if like your finger [TS]

  and the insertion point are like quantum [TS]

  entangled but not touching each other [TS]

  right so I don't think they would ever [TS]

  make this like certainly not the default [TS]

  and if they even included it maybe would [TS]

  be like an option like the iOS gestures [TS]

  but I bet they would mostly say no this [TS]

  kind of goes against the philosophy of [TS]

  iOS where we want direct manipulation we [TS]

  don't want you fiddling with one part of [TS]

  the screen and and you know having stuff [TS]

  happen it's kind of like the graffiti [TS]

  area where you draw your little graffiti [TS]

  characters in the graffiti area and then [TS]

  the letters appear in the insertion [TS]

  point now obviously the keyboard itself [TS]

  is an indirect template advice you're [TS]

  tapping the G key a G appears not where [TS]

  you tap your finger but that's more of a [TS]

  oh we're modeling a real-world thing and [TS]

  you're familiar with that already you [TS]

  could say the same thing I was like well [TS]

  it's just like a trackpad make make the [TS]

  keyboard suddenly appear to be a [TS]

  trackpad and you can swipe the insertion [TS]

  point around so I don't know I was just [TS]

  very excited about this video and I [TS]

  really hope Apple does something like [TS]

  this and the music is neat in the [TS]

  production value on the on the video or [TS]

  need to so thanks daniel hooper if [TS]

  that's your real name so here we go for [TS]

  the super distant follow up well let's [TS]

  do it before you do that let's do our [TS]

  first sponsor okay do you have a [TS]

  preference I know you've been listening [TS]

  this week doing is there one you'd like [TS]

  for me to do first I don't know what the [TS]

  two are I'm so behind on podcasts I just [TS]

  I'm halfway through the talk show [TS]

  alright we we have to since we've been [TS]

  talking about typing on the iPad it [TS]

  would make sense to start with one of [TS]

  our first two and I get I guess we'll [TS]

  just start with with tap typing as our [TS]

  first one because here we are talking [TS]

  about it this is a really really cool [TS]

  app that it's a new sponsor and I really [TS]

  really enjoying using this at myself [TS]

  it's uh it is called tap typing and it's [TS]

  a typing trainer for iOS so here's the [TS]

  thing at touchscreens tablets these [TS]

  things are here to stay right they're [TS]

  not going away [TS]

  if anything people are using more more [TS]

  than computers but most people have [TS]

  never learned how to effectively type on [TS]

  their iPad they either fumble around [TS]

  they get discouraged they have feel like [TS]

  they have to go and you know like this [TS]

  guy created a whole different kind of [TS]

  keyboard it doesn't have to be that way [TS]

  you don't have to feel frustrated every [TS]

  time it's time for you to type something [TS]

  on the keyboard and with just a few [TS]

  lessons and that's what this tap typing [TS]

  is all about you can drastically [TS]

  increase your iPad typing [TS]

  and therefore you will increase your [TS]

  productivity you'll be able to grab your [TS]

  iPad with supreme confidence knowing [TS]

  that this is the only device that you [TS]

  need you don't need to worry about [TS]

  bringing your laptop you won't need it [TS]

  especially when I tell you about our [TS]

  second sponsor program I'm going to head [TS]

  myself because this is about increasing [TS]

  your productivity they have lessons [TS]

  ranging from beginner to advanced they [TS]

  have a speed test does global rankings [TS]

  so you can see how you compare with [TS]

  everybody else out there and this is the [TS]

  part that's really cool it tracks where [TS]

  your fingers hit the screen as you type [TS]

  and it creates a heat map of where [TS]

  you're making mistakes so you know what [TS]

  you're doing wrong the bottom line is [TS]

  this you spend time learning how to type [TS]

  and that is an investment in making [TS]

  yourself more productive all you need to [TS]

  do you go to get tap typing calm get tap [TS]

  typing calm you can see the app you can [TS]

  see everything about it you can go it [TS]

  will have links via to the store and [TS]

  everything else that's where you go get [TS]

  tap typing calm very cool in the guy in [TS]

  the video taps route types really fast [TS]

  and I've seen a lot of really fast [TS]

  iOS typist I and Andy and nacho is [TS]

  pretty fast yeah he's been using that a [TS]

  lot as his 11 inch MacBook Air [TS]

  replacement that's this way to get good [TS]

  practice also Carnegie Hall so this [TS]

  topic the distant follow-up that I [TS]

  wasn't going to talk about it all but [TS]

  massive Twitter and email pressure has [TS]

  convinced me that it's worth doing and [TS]

  lo and behold they giant spew of notes [TS]

  appears on this topic [TS]

  making makings the size of the fault in [TS]

  the show probably untenable but but here [TS]

  we go this is a ruby motion have you [TS]

  talked about this on other shows this [TS]

  week already uh this is something that's [TS]

  new enough and I think the only other [TS]

  show I might have discussed it on would [TS]

  have been built and analyzed but we did [TS]

  not talk about it I'm not sure if it had [TS]

  been announced yet but this is pretty [TS]

  interesting I was actually looking at a [TS]

  bit more this morning hoping hoping that [TS]

  you would discuss it yeah so is the the [TS]

  to get the story in this first of all I [TS]

  would suggest the arts technical story [TS]

  by Ryan Paul I which he interviews the [TS]

  person who created this and has lots of [TS]

  detail and he actually includes the full [TS]

  source code to a [TS]

  sample application that he wrote using [TS]

  tool because he's been in on the private [TS]

  beta so this is this is the place to go [TS]

  if you just want to know what this is [TS]

  about [TS]

  but don't want like the one paragraph [TS]

  summary sorry's link is in the show [TS]

  notes I know I will summarize the [TS]

  summary so Ruby motion is a commercial [TS]

  product that lets you develop [TS]

  applications for iOS it's currently on [TS]

  sale for hundred fifty bucks but their [TS]

  real price is 200 so that's the business [TS]

  model they sell you this development of [TS]

  iron trimming is a by Laurent sense and [TS]

  Eddie I hope I'm pronouncing his is it [TS]

  that's like is that a boy or girl's name [TS]

  I know nothing about French I don't [TS]

  sorry we don't either I'm going to [TS]

  assume chat room you can help me out is [TS]

  that a boy or girl's name should just [TS]

  assume that it's male because as a [TS]

  programmer is that sexist Laura [TS]

  sounds like a a male name to me but I [TS]

  don't know anything about French names [TS]

  everyone says boy okay I feel better uh [TS]

  he is the creator of Mac Ruby the Mac [TS]

  Ruby project which had much love when in [TS]

  our past episodes about developing on [TS]

  Mac OS 10 and Apple's various frameworks [TS]

  for doing so what were those episodes [TS]

  that put them in the show it was episode [TS]

  14 Dark Age of objective-c and episode [TS]

  15 The Bridges of Syracuse County both [TS]

  discussed the problems I saw in Apple's [TS]

  future of its development platform using [TS]

  Objective C which is a language based on [TS]

  C which is low-level and gives you [TS]

  direct access to memory and it's kind of [TS]

  cumbersome to use and all that other [TS]

  stuff so lots of people wrote in then [TS]

  said what about Mac Ruby lets you write [TS]

  cocoa applications then or iOS [TS]

  applications in a in using Ruby and it [TS]

  calls through the objective-c things [TS]

  under the cover so we talked a lot about [TS]

  bridges and stuff like that and a lot of [TS]

  people said well you know we I was [TS]

  saying I didn't know what Apple's future [TS]

  for its development platform would be I [TS]

  said well the guy who writes Mac Ruby [TS]

  works for Apple and Apple is you know [TS]

  sort of unofficially supporting that [TS]

  project they thought because he was [TS]

  working there and like they haven't said [TS]

  anything about it but maybe this is [TS]

  their secret thing that they're doing [TS]

  this is the future of their platforms [TS]

  it's going to be all Ruby Mason we're [TS]

  going to come to WC one year they're [TS]

  going to say okay well Objective C is [TS]

  great and everything but [TS]

  now we want you to check out Mac Ruby [TS]

  and you're going to be writing your your [TS]

  cocoa and and uikit applications in Ruby [TS]

  instead calling through to the cocoa API [TS]

  as you can still use Objective C if you [TS]

  want blah blah blah uh and I remember [TS]

  saying that it could be technically [TS]

  speaking there's nothing preventing [TS]

  Apple from fully supporting this but I [TS]

  seriously doubted that it would be [TS]

  mostly because I heard nothing and from [TS]

  Apple and saw nothing from Apple to [TS]

  indicate that they were behind this as a [TS]

  solution and I heard and saw many things [TS]

  to indicate that it was not behind us as [TS]

  a solution even before last year's [TS]

  Debussy I was like if they're going to [TS]

  do Mac Ruby you would think I would see [TS]

  more hints in that direction and what I [TS]

  saw was hints in the direction of things [TS]

  like Arc and tweaking Objective C and [TS]

  you know really sort of doubling down on [TS]

  their that trying to make Objective C [TS]

  better versus saying oh you're just [TS]

  going to use Ruby for everything and so [TS]

  far that's been the case arc was [TS]

  introduced last WWC and they've been [TS]

  enhancing Objective C an increasing pace [TS]

  and they've really committed to their [TS]

  compiler infrastructure which granted [TS]

  micro-b uses as well but they're adding [TS]

  a lot of features to the Objective C [TS]

  language and stuff so I didn't see them [TS]

  using Mac Ruby now Mac Ruby was created [TS]

  in 2007 and the person who created it [TS]

  Laurence ensign Eddy recently left his [TS]

  job at Apple after seven years there to [TS]

  start his own startup to do this thing [TS]

  and what the Ryan polls and the articles [TS]

  that said his desire to continue working [TS]

  on Mac Ruby there you go his I could [TS]

  have just looked at in the article his [TS]

  desire to continue working on Mac Ruby [TS]

  was one of the factors that motivated [TS]

  him to leave Apple want his own company [TS]

  hmm that's pretty conclusive saying that [TS]

  he wanted to do Ruby he thought you [TS]

  could develop applications with Ruby for [TS]

  iOS and Mac OS 10 Apple disagreed so he [TS]

  left the company this is very similar to [TS]

  the guy who was running what is it [TS]

  called tens compliment for the for the [TS]

  ZFS port to Mac OS 10 he was working on [TS]

  that internally Apple said no we're not [TS]

  going to do ZFS for Mac OS 10 so he left [TS]

  to start his own company to do ZFS for [TS]

  Mac OS 10 so here's another example the [TS]

  same thing but I think this is pretty [TS]

  much as confirmed as you can get that [TS]

  Mac Ruby is not going to be the future [TS]

  of the development platform for Apple at [TS]

  least as far as Apple is concerned right [TS]

  now because he had to leave the company [TS]

  to pursue what he wanted to do now lot [TS]

  people have been asking me you know [TS]

  isn't this much better than what you [TS]

  talked about on this bridge episodes [TS]

  well if you've listened to all those [TS]

  episodes where I talked about the future [TS]

  of their platform and bridges and stuff [TS]

  I don't see how the announcement of Ruby [TS]

  motion changes anything that I said [TS]

  because it's basically I don't know if [TS]

  it's exactly the Mac Ruby code but it's [TS]

  it's very it's it's Mac Ruby with a nice [TS]

  IDE and stuff like that and I don't [TS]

  think it changes any of the fundamental [TS]

  things that I talked about then other [TS]

  than you know being more nicely packaged [TS]

  implementation and commercially [TS]

  supported and all the other stuff so [TS]

  just I'll go over a few of them briefly [TS]

  and you can go back and listen to those [TS]

  shows - here's long drawn-out version [TS]

  but I still think you don't get all the [TS]

  benefits of your fancy new high level [TS]

  language if you're using it to call into [TS]

  an API design for a lower level language [TS]

  and I went into more detail about in the [TS]

  shows but and to be fair to Mac Ruby it [TS]

  is the best I've seen in terms of okay [TS]

  so use your your cool high level [TS]

  language to call into objective-c api's [TS]

  I mean it does does the native bridging [TS]

  of types like you know your Ruby strings [TS]

  or any strings in Ruby classes or your [TS]

  Ruby objects or NS objects and it [TS]

  bridges NS array and NS dictionary and [TS]

  all that stuff to the native Ruby types [TS]

  like it's a bet that's the best you can [TS]

  hope for and the ID has some cool demos [TS]

  of showing like hey since this is Ruby [TS]

  you can when you start your app in the [TS]

  debug or whatever you can get a ripple [TS]

  where you can just do real-time changes [TS]

  to your application like you can put a [TS]

  breakpoint stop and then inspect some [TS]

  properties and fiddle them in your [TS]

  running application now you can do that [TS]

  in the fancier versions of gdb and LD be [TS]

  but it's considerably easier to do that [TS]

  in a high level language rep one by the [TS]

  way the ARS technica article use the [TS]

  word use the abbreviation repple capital [TS]

  repl without linking it anywhere without [TS]

  explaining it which is pretty brave if I [TS]

  had written that article I would have [TS]

  linked it somewhere so for people who [TS]

  don't know what a repple is its length [TS]

  in the show notes it's read eval print [TS]

  loop it's basically you get an [TS]

  interactive prompt in your program where [TS]

  you can manipulate any data in the [TS]

  current you know where you are on the [TS]

  current stack frame or whatever on the [TS]

  particular line of code and you can [TS]

  fiddle with it and inspect it modify it [TS]

  and then continue your program that's [TS]

  interactive debugging people who use the [TS]

  high-level languages like JavaScript or [TS]

  Python or Perl or Ruby are used to this [TS]

  is just the way we do development you [TS]

  set your breakpoint you get up to that [TS]

  point and [TS]

  you see what the heck is going on what's [TS]

  going to happen inspect your data maybe [TS]

  change it see if you can continue you [TS]

  know it's a nicer way to debug then if [TS]

  you have a compiled language and you're [TS]

  not familiar enough with the debugger to [TS]

  be able to do the same things most again [TS]

  most low-level languages do have some [TS]

  sort of modify and continue debugger but [TS]

  it's not kind of it's not something that [TS]

  everybody uses those type of languages [TS]

  use as whereas in the high-level [TS]

  language is just taken for granted [TS]

  that's something you have so I think Mac [TS]

  Ruby is great there but regardless of [TS]

  you know the regardless of the level of [TS]

  your language even ignoring like high [TS]

  level versus low level using one [TS]

  language to call into an API written in [TS]

  another language adds all sorts of [TS]

  weirdness like and then example they [TS]

  give me articles at the Cohen Convention [TS]

  is just different it's not because ones [TS]

  high level on the level but it's just [TS]

  that just different in this regard it's [TS]

  nice that Ruby and Objective C are [TS]

  similar in so many ways which is what [TS]

  makes the bridging better than other [TS]

  kinds of bridges like for example from [TS]

  like Java Objective C bridge was worse [TS]

  because Java was more different than [TS]

  Ruby is and stuff but just having two [TS]

  different languages even if they're [TS]

  exactly the same level when the calling [TS]

  convention of different makes things [TS]

  weird [TS]

  so Objective C has like the function [TS]

  signatures where it's like set the thing [TS]

  colon with the thing colon and the thing [TS]

  colon and that's the whole signature but [TS]

  you you put the arguments interspersed [TS]

  in the middle those it looks like name [TS]

  parameters but it's really not it's [TS]

  really just a fancy way of calling [TS]

  something someone in Ruby you got to do [TS]

  like object dot set the thing with and [TS]

  then the thing comma the other thing [TS]

  colon and then the other thing value it [TS]

  it's kind of like weird and awkward [TS]

  because it's just you know it looks [TS]

  strange and you can't even like the same [TS]

  string searches because the method [TS]

  signatures include like the first [TS]

  argument and then you have to make some [TS]

  sort of decision about alright how do I [TS]

  translate from the square bracket [TS]

  expression of an objective-c message [TS]

  send into my object dot something parens [TS]

  version in Ruby and so they just choose [TS]

  a way to do it but it just ends up being [TS]

  weird and so you're using it you know [TS]

  getting back to the high level versus [TS]

  low level thing you're presumably you're [TS]

  using Ruby because you like it better [TS]

  than Objective C you know like it states [TS]

  those people who love Ruby it's like Oh [TS]

  beautiful and elegant and all it is [TS]

  succinct [TS]

  and but like that's why you're using it [TS]

  but then here are all these ugly warts [TS]

  like you would never write a ruby API to [TS]

  look like the things that you have to [TS]

  call because they're objective-c api's [TS]

  it the beauty is partially lost because [TS]

  most of what your program is doing is [TS]

  calling through to an API written in [TS]

  another language that you must call in [TS]

  your Ruby code and it just looks weird [TS]

  you just know it's not a native Ruby API [TS]

  because no sane Ruby person would ever [TS]

  make any bad it looks anything like this [TS]

  it's just weird and the final point that [TS]

  I made in all those episodes is that the [TS]

  hard part of making an iOS app or a Mac [TS]

  app using cocoa or whatever is learning [TS]

  the API as learning UI kit an app kit [TS]

  and foundation and all these things [TS]

  that's the hard part the hard part is [TS]

  not the language and once you know the [TS]

  API once you know enough to make an iOS [TS]

  application or cocoa application or [TS]

  something at that point is like why not [TS]

  just use objective-c like how much of [TS]

  your program how much of what you're [TS]

  doing in your program is someplace where [TS]

  you're like okay now this is just a [TS]

  block of plain old Ruby and I'm just [TS]

  going to do some simple string [TS]

  manipulation that's so much easier to do [TS]

  in Ruby and that's I think that's true [TS]

  it is probably easy to do simple string [TS]

  manipulation and stuff like that in Ruby [TS]

  than it is an objective-c but the vast [TS]

  majority of the time in your program [TS]

  you're calling into API is that you [TS]

  didn't write and the hard part is [TS]

  figuring out which one of those to call [TS]

  and how to call them and what sequence [TS]

  and how to arrange your program and that [TS]

  doesn't change with the language and so [TS]

  like you're so close to just writing a [TS]

  native objective-c that it's like you [TS]

  know there's the confusion of having to [TS]

  go through the bridge layer and [TS]

  everything balanced with the supposed [TS]

  benefits you're getting but once you [TS]

  learn that API I know if I would did [TS]

  this and did like a Mac Ruby application [TS]

  and I got it working everything I'd be [TS]

  like man now enough about know enough [TS]

  about a UI kit that I could just write [TS]

  this in Objective C and not have this [TS]

  intermediary layer that I have to worry [TS]

  about right and the other thing of [TS]

  course is that objective-c is Apple [TS]

  supported platform that they keep [TS]

  improving it that you can use a full [TS]

  Apple tool chain one of the points that [TS]

  Ryan polemics and the article is that [TS]

  Ruby motion does not use what used to be [TS]

  known as interface builder and it's now [TS]

  integrated into Xcode right you can't [TS]

  lay out your you eyes using a GUI you [TS]

  got to use it programmatically which is [TS]

  something that not everyone is familiar [TS]

  with it certainly has a higher learning [TS]

  curve at the learner all the api's a [TS]

  pedal they stuff out and if you [TS]

  visually oriented is not quite as nice [TS]

  and there's a lot of design shops app [TS]

  design shops where the person doing the [TS]

  user interface has no connection to the [TS]

  code they're simply designed I I know [TS]

  there are a lot of people that work in [TS]

  this way maybe it's a team of two people [TS]

  one writes code one does the user [TS]

  interface usability part and then that [TS]

  should bother people yeah and like [TS]

  they're trying to help like Cincinnati [TS]

  says that they have their own layout [TS]

  system that they've developed that they [TS]

  said Xcode integration is on the roadmap [TS]

  but not the short-term roadmap so that's [TS]

  out there and they're their own things [TS]

  so it works this is kind of like CSS and [TS]

  it's similar to the cocoa auto layout [TS]

  which uses little ASCII art diagrams [TS]

  except it's something that's done in [TS]

  Ruby with a DSL type thing so it's more [TS]

  Ruby flavored but it's a way to [TS]

  programmatically layout controls it's [TS]

  nicer than just having to make a bunch [TS]

  of calls giving some sort of web evil [TS]

  DSL a kind of way to do stuff but I [TS]

  still think people like you know I again [TS]

  like you said if there's if there's [TS]

  designers doing it or something you're [TS]

  not going to hey check out this cool DSL [TS]

  or check out Auto layout with ASCII art [TS]

  they're just going to roll their eyes [TS]

  they they want to drag buttons onto a [TS]

  form and connect not put lines into all [TS]

  that stuff oh let's see what else do we [TS]

  have on this what else you got no we're [TS]

  not done with this topic since it [TS]

  continues on and on so the thing about [TS]

  being on the Apple training using [TS]

  Apple's tool chain it's worth noting at [TS]

  this point that not using Apple's tool [TS]

  chain can be seen as a benefit to many [TS]

  people because the latest version of [TS]

  Xcode has a lot of detractors both in [TS]

  terms of user interface but primarily in [TS]

  terms of its bugginess and performance [TS]

  so this is coming at just the right time [TS]

  I think of people who are just annoyed [TS]

  at the latest version of Xcode because [TS]

  it's slow and it keeps crashing and [TS]

  screws up their projects and stuff like [TS]

  that like mad they just want to get out [TS]

  of that like I want to build navigation [TS]

  want to get out of that unfortunately [TS]

  those people who are complaining are [TS]

  usually pretty hardcore iOS or Mac [TS]

  developers who have a tremendous amount [TS]

  of knowledge invested in objective-c in [TS]

  that platform and I don't think they can [TS]

  just slide right into Ruby cocoa but not [TS]

  Ruby cocoa Mac Ruby or Ruby motion so [TS]

  maybe they'll give it a try and play [TS]

  with it and maybe it will get some [TS]

  traction if ever there was [TS]

  for it to land and have the best chance [TS]

  of getting traction I think it's now [TS]

  with the dissatisfaction of apples with [TS]

  apples tools I think Apple will [TS]

  eventually get its tools settled down [TS]

  that the latest version of Xcode is a [TS]

  quite a change from the previous one and [TS]

  it's been rocky for a while but [TS]

  presumably like you would assume they [TS]

  would eventually get it settled down a [TS]

  lot of people are like alright let's [TS]

  consider Xcode for a bad joke and WWC [TS]

  they're going to Xcode 5 and it will [TS]

  actually work so there's lots of [TS]

  fantasies going on in that regard but [TS]

  the latest version of Xcode 4 is not [TS]

  well loved so we'll see how they do [TS]

  but the final point I have to make on [TS]

  this is that Apple really really hates [TS]

  it when people don't use its tools like [TS]

  that's that's the elephant in the room [TS]

  about all this they've really hate it [TS]

  they do not want you developing [TS]

  applications for that platform using any [TS]

  tools other than their own they [TS]

  seriously hate like the flash stuff [TS]

  making you know making applications with [TS]

  flash and porting them and I like all [TS]

  those debates they just know you want to [TS]

  make applications our platform use our [TS]

  tools to do it [TS]

  and then people camera at all these [TS]

  workarounds right we'll use a different [TS]

  tool but we'll produce objective-c code [TS]

  and you won't be able to tell the [TS]

  difference Apple and so far apples been [TS]

  like ah well fine I mean it's [TS]

  objective-c code and you're submitting [TS]

  us binary that looks like it was built [TS]

  with our tools and it looks like it was [TS]

  written Objective C and we don't know [TS]

  that it was and like that's a constant [TS]

  struggle but you just know Apple doesn't [TS]

  like that because that what they don't [TS]

  want is a code warrior situation where [TS]

  the vast majority of their user base is [TS]

  using an IDE that they don't control and [TS]

  all of a sudden the progress of their [TS]

  platform is controlled by a third-party [TS]

  company that they have no control over [TS]

  right because like I think we made this [TS]

  awesome new thing and like oh well I [TS]

  can't even use that until code warrior [TS]

  updates to support it all right they do [TS]

  not want that to happen ever ever again [TS]

  and it's just like an institutional [TS]

  hatred of using any tools other than [TS]

  their own they want complete ownership [TS]

  of the tools they want you to use them [TS]

  and if they can force you using they [TS]

  will so that is the grim outlook for [TS]

  anybody trying to make any sort of tool [TS]

  that you use instead of Xcode to make [TS]

  your applications even if you use their [TS]

  full compiler tool chain you know [TS]

  they're using LLVM and clang and like [TS]

  that's that's what Ruby motion is using [TS]

  it's totally native it's making its [TS]

  making Objective C applications like you [TS]

  don't have to know that it was written [TS]

  in code [TS]

  and Ruby but I just know that Apple does [TS]

  not like that so if one of these IDs [TS]

  ever got traction it became insanely [TS]

  popular look for a confrontation of some [TS]

  kind or something coming to a head the [TS]

  best thing that could happen to remotion [TS]

  ik is that it could be used by a few [TS]

  really great developers and get popular [TS]

  enough to be self-supporting [TS]

  but still not be in widespread use [TS]

  because that would keep it safe sort of [TS]

  one of the point I had in us I have too [TS]

  many things bolded here was that I think [TS]

  Sansa matey's heart is in the right [TS]

  place with this thing I quote from the [TS]

  the ARS technica article does it has [TS]

  some quotes from him right in it says an [TS]

  iOS application written in Ruby will [TS]

  contain significantly less lines of code [TS]

  than a comparable app written in [TS]

  objective-c like that's what you want [TS]

  right that's why all these doodles you [TS]

  don't want to just like oh what looks [TS]

  prettier because there's no funny square [TS]

  brackets like that's not the goal [TS]

  like that's maybe one of the goals but [TS]

  that's not what you want it to be less [TS]

  code that's what you want and I think [TS]

  this delivers on that just if only [TS]

  getting rid of like declaration [TS]

  boilerplate and headers and the example [TS]

  code in the in the article is only 100 [TS]

  lines it's only hundred lines because [TS]

  you can put it all on one file you just [TS]

  do multiple class definitions and you [TS]

  don't have to have like separate MS and [TS]

  dot H's and interface and property [TS]

  declarations and synthesize calls and [TS]

  it's just you know it's less noisy and [TS]

  there's less boilerplate and so there is [TS]

  a real benefit there I think but it's [TS]

  obviously not what Apple wants to go [TS]

  with and if I was writing an application [TS]

  for the Mac or iOS I would probably just [TS]

  bite the bullet and learn and learn [TS]

  objective-c because that feels like [TS]

  still be safe bet to me that's why the [TS]

  advice I've always heard from every [TS]

  developer that I've ever talked to is [TS]

  you know bite the bullet learn Objective [TS]

  C it's got the best support [TS]

  it's from Apple it's by Apple they're [TS]

  always going to make sure that this [TS]

  works unless they invent something new [TS]

  but this is official why if you're going [TS]

  to embrace the platform would you not [TS]

  embrace the infrastructure that they've [TS]

  provided for you otherwise because the [TS]

  infrastructure sucks and keeps crashing [TS]

  in annoys me and I don't like the [TS]

  language as much as other stuff but but [TS]

  again I truly think the hardest [TS]

  these applications is that you have to [TS]

  learn the API it's not learning the [TS]

  language Objective C takes you know an [TS]

  experienced programmer a day to get the [TS]

  basics you know you're fine right it's [TS]

  not the language it's the API and the [TS]

  API is a lot to learn no matter what [TS]

  language you program it in so that [TS]

  that's always been a sticking point to [TS]

  me so that's the end of Ruby motion I [TS]

  applaud the effort I think it looks [TS]

  really cool and I hope they do not get [TS]

  big enough to go into Apple's crosshairs [TS]

  that was like a follow up but also kind [TS]

  of a topic because it's so distant but [TS]

  now back to the regular follow up I [TS]

  really wanted to limit this to shows but [TS]

  due to my own incompetence I have failed [TS]

  to do so games games and gaming well [TS]

  this is a big this is a big follow up [TS]

  topic let's do our second sponsor [TS]

  quickly and then we can get into games [TS]

  okay are you can will will you allow I [TS]

  will text astok this is something I [TS]

  would think you like no didn't do you [TS]

  have an iPad that you could use do you [TS]

  have an iPad you could grab and have for [TS]

  the afternoon it's sitting right in [TS]

  front of me right now okay so I want you [TS]

  to go and install and I think I have a [TS]

  promo code for you if you want if you [TS]

  don't already have this app text a stick [TS]

  it's powerful and fast text editor for [TS]

  iPad I love this app it's an advanced [TS]

  code editor it has a rich support for [TS]

  syntax highlighting it does Dropbox [TS]

  integration it does WebDAV it does a FTP [TS]

  and SFTP and it supports more than 80 [TS]

  different types of files while you're [TS]

  typing HTML objective-c Ruby Python and [TS]

  if you don't if you like John siracusa [TS]

  have invented your own superior [TS]

  programming language you can use your [TS]

  own text make compatible syntax [TS]

  definitions just use your own thing it's [TS]

  written from the ground up uses a you [TS]

  know native iOS API is like core text so [TS]

  it has interactive search it has a very [TS]

  fast quick very responsive text editor [TS]

  that this whole thing is built around [TS]

  it's got these great little additional [TS]

  keys over the virtual keyboard to make [TS]

  it really easy for you to enter code and [TS]

  it has an awesome little cursor [TS]

  navigation wheel that makes selecting [TS]

  text really easy so first use our first [TS]

  sponsor to get up to speed so you can [TS]

  type really fast then you get this [TS]

  and now you're like coding machine with [TS]

  just your iPad you're a coding machine [TS]

  and you can update right on the server [TS]

  you got SFTP I mentioned that you got [TS]

  Dropbox you get all of this stuff and it [TS]

  even has code completion for HTML and [TS]

  CSS and if you have an external keyboard [TS]

  you can use that too it's really awesome [TS]

  you go to text asta Capcom let me spell [TS]

  that text txt astok ast I see app text [TS]

  as de Capcom and if there's developers [TS]

  out then even if you're not a developer [TS]

  you just want a really really great [TS]

  editor with all these features just go [TS]

  check it out text tastic they just see [TS]

  that thing recently about some a guy or [TS]

  a group of people created an entire game [TS]

  on an iPad it was an iOS game they [TS]

  created entirely on an iPad all the [TS]

  coding all the graphics all everything [TS]

  pretty cool shows what you can do yeah [TS]

  and said what I think when I thought of [TS]

  when I saw that was like like hey look [TS]

  at this we made we made a whole app on [TS]

  the iPad see is not just for consumption [TS]

  blah blah it reminded me of kind of like [TS]

  if someone had been bragging back in the [TS]

  early days of the personal computer or [TS]

  our game consoles where you used to need [TS]

  to have another bigger fancier computer [TS]

  to make programs for the other computer [TS]

  yeah like you you I can't think of a [TS]

  good concrete example and so someone can [TS]

  come up with one but like used you know [TS]

  game consoles you'd have to use a [TS]

  development thing that was way more [TS]

  powerful than the game console itself to [TS]

  write it like you don't write the game [TS]

  on the game console and even for [TS]

  personal computers like a lot of the [TS]

  original Mac software was written on a [TS]

  Lisa I believe someone can correct me if [TS]

  I'm wrong on that because you needed the [TS]

  big computer or at least the computer [TS]

  was already done to make the connect [TS]

  software for the other computer but now [TS]

  that seems silly it's like I'm a rogue [TS]

  this Mac application on my Mac isn't [TS]

  that amazing like no not really uh I [TS]

  think in 10 years looking back in the [TS]

  stories like someone wrote an iPad [TS]

  application on an iPad they'd be like so [TS]

  so what that's exciting for what reason [TS]

  we're in this weird in-between period [TS]

  where we think you can't do we think you [TS]

  can't create things for the thing on the [TS]

  thing all right [TS]

  Gaming gaming gaming so again listening [TS]

  to myself on the previous episode I [TS]

  immediately struck with [TS]

  the points that I totally miss a lot I'm [TS]

  listening to mess I'm going wait you now [TS]

  don't talk about that now you're missing [TS]

  the point here don't you sit in I'm [TS]

  again I'm it it's frustrating to listen [TS]

  to yourself and realize you're being an [TS]

  idiot but there you have it so I'll [TS]

  start with some smaller gaming fault and [TS]

  then we'll get to the P one major point [TS]

  any mess if you recall I last show I [TS]

  repented for not having focused enough [TS]

  on the distinction I was making that [TS]

  games are a weird kind of art because [TS]

  they have these qualities of the forms [TS]

  of art Don I thought that on the [TS]

  original show I had muddied the water by [TS]

  bringing by talking about things that [TS]

  are not arts to try to illuminate other [TS]

  aspects of the analogy but it was a it [TS]

  was a tangent that was dragging me off [TS]

  course and so on this episode I have a [TS]

  point that I missed last time but let's [TS]

  start with small follow-up first I have [TS]

  something from someone who's I hate when [TS]

  I go to someone's Twitter account and [TS]

  all I see is the Twitter name and they [TS]

  don't have a real name listed because I [TS]

  don't know how to credit you so this one [TS]

  is stic kan which I don't know how to [TS]

  pronounce and if you had provided a real [TS]

  name I would have given an effort but he [TS]

  sent me a link to oh here's another name [TS]

  Dara O'Brien but it's it's not O'Brien [TS]

  like Oh a posture fee its Dara da RA and [TS]

  then a space then a capital o and then a [TS]

  space and then Bri a ayan anyway he's [TS]

  Irish I think yeah that's an Irish name [TS]

  for sure yes but no pottery so he's a [TS]

  stand-up comedian he has a stent he has [TS]

  a stand-up comedy skit about the [TS]

  difficulty of playing games very similar [TS]

  to topic like you know he makes one line [TS]

  it's not the point of his comedy routine [TS]

  but one line is about it you know other [TS]

  forms of art you aren't prevented from [TS]

  enjoying because you are not skilled [TS]

  enough and it's a good funny routine you [TS]

  should watch it at the link is in the [TS]

  show notes so I recommend that cage it [TS]

  healing chat room says obreon obreon [TS]

  well he would know so there you go and [TS]

  what it reminded me of seeing the [TS]

  stand-up comic talking about video games [TS]

  was that it packs this year someone in [TS]

  audience asks question during one of the [TS]

  Q&A sessions of Mike and Jerry why don't [TS]

  you guys have stand-up comedians at PAX [TS]

  and what they said was that it's not [TS]

  it's a lot of [TS]

  people have proposed that but it's not [TS]

  easy to find stand-up comedians who do [TS]

  like video game relevant humour who [TS]

  aren't like patronizing or like not [TS]

  really one of us or or just aren't funny [TS]

  you know what I mean [TS]

  like you can't just say oh I'm a [TS]

  stand-up comedian I do video game stuff [TS]

  and you can you can tell when the person [TS]

  doing the comedy either doesn't get the [TS]

  culture isn't a real gamer and the [TS]

  people who do get the culture and our [TS]

  real gamers are often are not funny so [TS]

  it's not easy it's not easy to find a [TS]

  stand-up community who's gonna do [TS]

  because there it is possible to have [TS]

  very funny skits about video games that [TS]

  are relevant to gamers but it's rare so [TS]

  I looked through this guy I'm like he [TS]

  seems like a real gamer to me maybe kind [TS]

  of like a in-between II casually kind of [TS]

  you know like but and the questions like [TS]

  whether he's funny now maybe they can't [TS]

  get him maybe he's too big and wherever [TS]

  he's from maybe there's don't feel like [TS]

  he's a good fit the show and I don't [TS]

  know if he is but when I saw this that I [TS]

  thought of that like it is difficult to [TS]

  find people doing humor about narrow [TS]

  interest subjects that are acceptable to [TS]

  the people who are into that but who are [TS]

  also broadly funny the next one is from [TS]

  ash furrow and he I'm something that's [TS]

  he again like many other people are [TS]

  following my advice and when they have a [TS]

  whole bunch of stuff to say about some [TS]

  show write a blog post I will link to it [TS]

  in the show notes it's better than [TS]

  sending me the big giant email that only [TS]

  I see and then I have to summarize for [TS]

  everybody else all right [TS]

  okay Julie says Dara was a physics major [TS]

  in college and he's a big science nerd [TS]

  yes but doesn't mean he's a gamer [TS]

  doesn't mean he is more connection to [TS]

  the nerd so anyway ash furro furro wrote [TS]

  a blog post that was titled the joys and [TS]

  sorrows of being an almost gamer and [TS]

  that's in the show notes and he [TS]

  complains about he says that he really [TS]

  understood what I was talking about when [TS]

  I said that some people play games and [TS]

  don't have the skills to complete them [TS]

  and can be frustrating like games such [TS]

  as Zelda to have a soft ramp up to get [TS]

  you familiar with mechanics but then [TS]

  eventually the game gets too hard and [TS]

  you have to stop and he said he has [TS]

  experiences this and it kind of sucks [TS]

  and it's why he stopped playing video [TS]

  games he says he says I've played 2/3 of [TS]

  the way through so many game I've almost [TS]

  finished it doesn't Zelda games that's [TS]

  rough right he says he was getting at [TS]

  the portal which is first-person shooter [TS]

  he's it [TS]

  came to the section that introduces [TS]

  turrets I literally panicked I put down [TS]

  the game and didn't touch it for a month [TS]

  because suddenly had it become a [TS]

  first-person shooter and I hated it [TS]

  because he's not particularly good at [TS]

  first-person shooters and doesn't like [TS]

  this kind of games but was encouraged to [TS]

  play portal because he said it was like [TS]

  a puzzle game but eventually there's [TS]

  some first-person Ori stuff import [TS]

  first-person kind of stuff in portal [TS]

  where you have to be kind of good at [TS]

  controlling the character and that makes [TS]

  it frustrating so he says he has played [TS]

  a whole bunch of games like Mario games [TS]

  and Smash Brothers and joy port on [TS]

  portal 2 but never enjoyed playing Halo [TS]

  or called duty and he says that he [TS]

  thinks marginal improvements in gamers [TS]

  killed the high level the spectrum can [TS]

  result in massive improvements in the [TS]

  joy experience while playing so if he [TS]

  was a little better shooters he'd enjoy [TS]

  them more I would say about this person [TS]

  that he's mostly a gamer like he's not [TS]

  really the people I was talking about [TS]

  the fact that he's gotten as far as he [TS]

  has shows that he has much more [TS]

  competence in gaming than the vast [TS]

  majority of the public I think he could [TS]

  play enjoy and get through completely [TS]

  like a game like eco and and journey [TS]

  very easily shall the classes probably [TS]

  still beyond his reach because they does [TS]

  get hard drugs in and not finishing [TS]

  Zelda games is really rough because like [TS]

  especially if you like two-thirds of the [TS]

  way through you want to see the ending [TS]

  you want to see the conclusion of the [TS]

  story you want to have satisfaction for [TS]

  the work you've done and if you just [TS]

  can't get there that's that's rough so I [TS]

  encourage everyone to go read that [TS]

  because it is much more interesting than [TS]

  my brief summary of it and speaking of [TS]

  finishing games Bruce Phillips wrote in [TS]

  to point me to an article that shows [TS]

  completion percentages for a bunch of [TS]

  Xbox 360 games it's a little bit old but [TS]

  on the past show I said I would love to [TS]

  know how many players actually complete [TS]

  games and this isn't necessarily a [TS]

  measure of a skill because they could [TS]

  you could not complete a game because it [TS]

  gets boring or it gets annoying or you [TS]

  just don't use it's not fun anymore or [TS]

  you think you've played the whole game [TS]

  and you're not interested anymore but [TS]

  the range is huge so this is a link in [TS]

  the show notes it's a game of suture [TS]

  article or Gamasutra if you want to [TS]

  pronounce it that way and there's like a [TS]

  low of a ten percent completion light [TS]

  for Guitar Hero game which I assume is [TS]

  completely a skill barrier to completion [TS]

  because completing 100 percent of Guitar [TS]

  Hero takes tremendous textarea musical [TS]

  ability that most people don't have and [TS]

  it all I think it also gets kind of [TS]

  boring as you go and to a high of 75 [TS]

  percent for a call duty game which is [TS]

  a mass-market game like said they want [TS]

  to reduce the scale factor to get to [TS]

  find the broadest audience but called [TS]

  Duty's is still a pretty hardcore gamer [TS]

  game but it's a huge range there in [TS]

  completion percentages and I was I wish [TS]

  I had more relevant more comprehensive [TS]

  data on that on about game makers due to [TS]

  that's the point of the article was like [TS]

  how to get people to keep playing your [TS]

  game I don't know if the article I just [TS]

  looked at the graphs I confess I did not [TS]

  read the entire thing but I don't know [TS]

  if the article goes into whether skill [TS]

  is a factor like are people leaving your [TS]

  game because they're not engaged or do [TS]

  they consider the people leaving your [TS]

  game simply because they can't get any [TS]

  father oh the next one is Mike F who [TS]

  writes in without his full last name [TS]

  Mike F mentions the Dean axel F exactly [TS]

  Eddie Murphy writes and to say that he [TS]

  he doesn't like journey so right away [TS]

  he's suspect to me like this was the end [TS]

  of this thing I read his entire entire [TS]

  email then at the very end he takes a [TS]

  jab a journey I'm like oh then why did I [TS]

  read the hell mail you're I just written [TS]

  you off entirely sorry he suspects but [TS]

  what's hearing now let's see what he had [TS]

  to say let's try to consider his [TS]

  arguments without considering his [TS]

  terrible taste in games uh say it says [TS]

  it's pretty common to hear video game [TS]

  journalists making the same argument you [TS]

  did about video game length and how [TS]

  meaningless it is as a measure of value [TS]

  taken to the extreme that's obviously a [TS]

  bad argument a copy of quake three that [TS]

  shuts off after a week is worth less [TS]

  than one that does not and he suggests [TS]

  that it's because if you're not dealt [TS]

  with a job and you have less time [TS]

  obviously you're going to be if your [TS]

  time constrained you value the quality [TS]

  of the entertainment more than the the [TS]

  length of it but if your money [TS]

  constrained like a kid you want to get [TS]

  the most bang for your buck you've got [TS]

  plenty of time but you only have a [TS]

  little bit of money so you don't have [TS]

  spend 60 bucks on a game that's that's [TS]

  only like five hours long because now [TS]

  you got to save up sixty bucks again so [TS]

  it's it's you know a difference in [TS]

  perspective of what you want to think so [TS]

  he says if you're a kid on a budget and [TS]

  you can only get a game every two months [TS]

  but you really recommend the kid by [TS]

  journey well first of all journey is $15 [TS]

  so that's not quite a fair comparison [TS]

  but what I was specifically talking [TS]

  about and complains about how long it [TS]

  takes to finish game is that it applies [TS]

  mostly to single-player games like when [TS]

  someone or someone review a [TS]

  single-player game and [TS]

  it was only nine hours gameplay and I [TS]

  think there should be twenty right and [TS]

  the they didn't get X hours enjoyment [TS]

  for Y amount of money complaints almost [TS]

  exclusively focus on single-player games [TS]

  a replay value in dollar for money is [TS]

  like a legitimate concern but it's [TS]

  mostly wrapped up in in game type very [TS]

  very few single-player games having a [TS]

  replay value to come close to even a [TS]

  mediocre multiplayer game so a game like [TS]

  quake 3 yes it'll be ridiculous if the [TS]

  game shut off but you try reading your [TS]

  review you know what genre you're [TS]

  getting into very few people are [TS]

  complaining that mmo's don't have enough [TS]

  like they're not long enough like there [TS]

  are very few MMOs where you can hit the [TS]

  level cap in five hours because that [TS]

  that I think would be worth complaining [TS]

  about you when you get an MMO and [TS]

  especially when you get a multiplayer [TS]

  multiplayer game is like you can just [TS]

  play that forever and ever [TS]

  I can never people are still playing [TS]

  quake 3 that game never ends [TS]

  you know single-player games have an end [TS]

  I mean to give a X hours of gameplay [TS]

  thing you have to have an end to the [TS]

  game and single-player games do have an [TS]

  end and there are single-player portions [TS]

  of other games you can complain about [TS]

  multiplayer games pretty much don't have [TS]

  an end even when you hit the level cap [TS]

  you can just hang out there in MMO and [TS]

  you're not going to get like a level 80 [TS]

  wherever that is Wow person in 12 hours [TS]

  you're just not I don't know what the [TS]

  fastest speedrun up to love lady was but [TS]

  it takes normal people are really a long [TS]

  time to do that and even when you hit [TS]

  the level cap you can just keep playing [TS]

  and playing and playing and doing raids [TS]

  and just you know there's no end to them [TS]

  so I've never personally seen a length [TS]

  complaint for a MMO or a multiplayer [TS]

  game I only see it for single-player [TS]

  games where you play through some sort [TS]

  of story and occasionally you see [TS]

  complaints about the story mode of a [TS]

  multiplayer game like oh yeah it's got [TS]

  as awesome multiplayer and stuff but the [TS]

  single-player campaign is only four [TS]

  hours long and we don't feel like that's [TS]

  enough and those are the complaints that [TS]

  that I am saying are silly because you [TS]

  know if the quality of those four hours [TS]

  of single-player game was high enough it [TS]

  shouldn't matter and by the way if it's [TS]

  part of a multiplayer game is that [TS]

  really even the focus aren't you buying [TS]

  this game so you can you know play [TS]

  multiplayer forever and ever and ever [TS]

  until you get bored of it so for people [TS]

  who are on time constraint for on money [TS]

  constraints I would definitely tell a [TS]

  kid who's online straight to buy journey [TS]

  because it is only $15 so it's not going [TS]

  to hurt their money budget uh but even [TS]

  if it was $60 I would still tell I was [TS]

  telling me but I recommend that game to [TS]

  any [TS]

  any [TS]

  study if you like good things then you [TS]

  should like journey and I think if you [TS]

  divide the enjoyment and quality [TS]

  you know amount that you get by the time [TS]

  money ratio you will still get a higher [TS]

  value than you would for even from any [TS]

  multiplayer games so but really what I'm [TS]

  getting is I don't think people are [TS]

  being tricked or duped or gypped by at [TS]

  home let's see that's not good that's [TS]

  rude for gypsies and very sorry many [TS]

  things that come out of my mouth are [TS]

  unintentionally racist there's a show [TS]

  title for you people who feel like [TS]

  they're being swindled by not getting [TS]

  what they wanted for their money if [TS]

  you're a gamer you know what you're [TS]

  getting when you buy an MMO you know [TS]

  what you're getting when you buy a [TS]

  multiplayer game are you going to you [TS]

  buying this game so you can play [TS]

  deathmatch so you can play a sports game [TS]

  against people online you know how much [TS]

  content you're getting and for a [TS]

  single-player game I still say it comes [TS]

  down to quality and not length I would [TS]

  much rather play and even if I wasn't [TS]

  totally not time concerned I'm retired I [TS]

  have no kids at all the time in the [TS]

  world I would still rather play an [TS]

  awesome to our game than a mediocre [TS]

  crappy 10 15 20 hour game and of course [TS]

  the if you really want value for the [TS]

  money what you're really looking for if [TS]

  you're not into multiplayer games is a [TS]

  70 to 80 hour single-player game where [TS]

  it's good all the way through and those [TS]

  are few and far between Zelda games are [TS]

  the only ones that come to mind as what [TS]

  you say about journey's as it's a [TS]

  pretentious pile of overproduced [TS]

  ham-fisted twaddle that's what he said [TS]

  about journey hmm so pretentious maybe [TS]

  maybe that's the only one I'll possibly [TS]

  give him me or maybe he's just too [TS]

  cynical but it's a strong argument for [TS]

  them for journey being pretentious right [TS]

  but overproduced no no no I was very [TS]

  understated and it's not over produced [TS]

  called duties over produced you know [TS]

  journey is not over produced and [TS]

  ham-fisted not ham-fisted at all very [TS]

  subtle very you know ham-fisted is the [TS]

  square jaw jarhead marine guy cursing at [TS]

  you about how he's going to crush the [TS]

  enemy bugs and like that's that's [TS]

  ham-fisted [TS]

  Journey has cutscenes with no text and [TS]

  no dialogue that is not yeah anyway he's [TS]

  wrong about journey I'm right you should [TS]

  go buy that game it's $15 this show is [TS]

  brought to you by journey [TS]

  we've been on pause to the show I can't [TS]

  I can't believe it [TS]

  well you know they are losing money so [TS]

  maybe they don't have that bit see [TS]

  they're losing money because they're not [TS]

  sponsoring the show that's how this [TS]

  works [TS]

  finally you get a getting it let Horace [TS]

  know that you've cracked it [TS]

  Sony what's wrong with Sony not [TS]

  sponsoring five-by-five caused the [TS]

  downfall of the company it didn't cause [TS]

  it but it simply didn't it didn't [TS]

  suspend it either her dear first yeah [TS]

  all right uh there was I had a Twitter [TS]

  exchange shortly after the last show [TS]

  about gaming with someone whose Twitter [TS]

  handle is frankly and whose name is [TS]

  listed only as Frank the original tweet [TS]

  started it was saying to me you're still [TS]

  making an incorrect assumption that time [TS]

  investment can't prove skills I suggest [TS]

  reading outliers by Malcolm Gladwell [TS]

  which I'm sure Merlyn is glad to hear [TS]

  another person recommending a Mountain [TS]

  Gladwell book and so just of this [TS]

  Twitter thread which I tried desperately [TS]

  to find a service that can like there's [TS]

  a million like show with Twitter thread [TS]

  websites out there and I found a whole [TS]

  bunch of them but none of them showed [TS]

  the complete thread probably because we [TS]

  like we must have like had a [TS]

  discontinuity in there where we started [TS]

  replying to different threads so none of [TS]

  them showed the entire thread and all of [TS]

  them are like ugly and weird so please [TS]

  don't send me 8,000 Twitter thread [TS]

  things if you found one that you like [TS]

  then go for it but you can just look [TS]

  through I'll put this frankly tweet and [TS]

  the original treatment Charlotte's and [TS]

  you could find the cheyna replies the [TS]

  last like 10 in 15 minutes and this was [TS]

  an example of a good Twitter exchange I [TS]

  think it probably would have been better [TS]

  if it had gone to email but I think is [TS]

  more entertaining to other people if [TS]

  they want to follow in that it was going [TS]

  on Twitter and it kept us short so I'm [TS]

  going to summarize the beginning portion [TS]

  of it in even shorter version Frank was [TS]

  basically saying time investment leads [TS]

  to skill and I was saying there's a [TS]

  limit and that was the major the major [TS]

  point of our disagreement was that he [TS]

  was saying like you know they're not in [TS]

  Gladwell 10,000 hours to gain expertise [TS]

  blah blah blah I was obviously never not [TS]

  saying that you don't get better when [TS]

  you practice obviously you do but I was [TS]

  saying that there are limits and that [TS]

  those limits are really low for most [TS]

  people when it comes to gaming because [TS]

  they're not skills that most people have [TS]

  and can't develop so that was our our [TS]

  disagreement that he seemed to think [TS]

  that if you practice enough anybody can [TS]

  get really good at games and I think [TS]

  that is not the case but [TS]

  regardless of that disagreement like [TS]

  even ignore who was right in that debate [TS]

  the meta point I made after I realized [TS]

  that was our disagreement was like it's [TS]

  moot because if people won't invest the [TS]

  time to practice it still results in the [TS]

  same thing the majority the population [TS]

  not having the skills to enjoy games and [TS]

  is it because they can't get the skills [TS]

  or because they're not engaged enough or [TS]

  because they're put off by their their [TS]

  lack of expertise in to begin with or [TS]

  because they don't know what their [TS]

  whatever the reason they either can't [TS]

  gain them or won't gain them the end [TS]

  result is the same [TS]

  most of the population can appreciate [TS]

  these what we think are the best that [TS]

  this medium has to offer America gone on [TS]

  Twitter pointed out that opera is kind [TS]

  of like that and because you know if [TS]

  you're if you don't have a knife you [TS]

  don't understand what they're saying you [TS]

  don't know the foreign language in that [TS]

  then you can't really appreciate opera [TS]

  and I think that probably applies to all [TS]

  foreign language art not that it's the [TS]

  art form itself but it's the fact that [TS]

  it's in a foreign language you know [TS]

  foreign movies have subtitles but you're [TS]

  kind of missing some of the cultural [TS]

  stuff but really any any art created in [TS]

  a foreign society is in a different [TS]

  language or in a different culture than [TS]

  you are there is necessarily a knowledge [TS]

  barrier to you fully appreciate not so [TS]

  much a skill barrier in terms of [TS]

  physical skill but there's definitely a [TS]

  barrier there and that I think is the [TS]

  closest I've seen as in a commonplace [TS]

  example of art being not able to be [TS]

  appreciated by people because of [TS]

  something close to a skill or knowledge [TS]

  that they don't have so and I would just [TS]

  lump all four and stuff under that but [TS]

  finally we'll get to the main point that [TS]

  upon listening to myself I immediately [TS]

  realized and then eight billion people [TS]

  emailed me and tweeted me about this [TS]

  distinction that I guess I was kind of [TS]

  making implicitly but doesn't matter if [TS]

  I make it implicitly if I don't actually [TS]

  say it because this is an audio medium [TS]

  the distinction not versus art and not [TS]

  art but participant versus the observer [TS]

  producer versus consumer many people [TS]

  wrote in to give examples of other types [TS]

  of things they thought were either [TS]

  counter-examples or support for my [TS]

  statements about games and a lot of them [TS]

  made this name same mistake I did of not [TS]

  distinguishing correctly between the [TS]

  person creating the art and the person [TS]

  consuming the art and I thought that was [TS]

  key to what I was talking about here is [TS]

  a blog post by [TS]

  Jonathan do gak do D ug e C which says [TS]

  everything that I'm about to say but in [TS]

  a much better manner so I will put it in [TS]

  the show notes and you can read it let's [TS]

  see if I've got a portion I can read [TS]

  here so the type of gaming that [TS]

  enthusiasts engage in is as opposed to [TS]

  casual games is interesting in that it [TS]

  is a participatory pastime there is [TS]

  perhaps no division between participants [TS]

  those who play and consumers those who [TS]

  consume because necessarily consumption [TS]

  is participation in this instance it is [TS]

  the ability to participate the necessary [TS]

  physical skills to fully enjoy journey [TS]

  that are the barriers to entry here this [TS]

  is a fairly unique proposition for a [TS]

  pastime particularly one as creative as [TS]

  video games it may have the effect of [TS]

  ensuring that gaming is never [TS]

  legitimized by the cultural [TS]

  establishment is more than a simply [TS]

  frivolous pastime this is disappointing [TS]

  for fans of creative video games so this [TS]

  this distinction many people will bring [TS]

  up things like music or like all you [TS]

  need physical skills to to play music [TS]

  and music is an art and therefore it's [TS]

  exactly the same thing the big [TS]

  distinction here is that playing music [TS]

  and composing music is difficult [TS]

  creating art is almost always difficult [TS]

  create crew the creation process of [TS]

  course is difficult the weird thing [TS]

  about gaming is that consumption is [TS]

  difficult so it's super hard to write a [TS]

  symphony or to play an instrument [TS]

  masterfully right but to listen to that [TS]

  music you sit in the room with your ears [TS]

  open and you listen and almost everyone [TS]

  can appreciate music babies little [TS]

  babies and toddlers sway their little [TS]

  bodies to the music it's like not you [TS]

  know it's it's as an innate as you can [TS]

  get appreciating music so yes of course [TS]

  creating music step of creating hands is [TS]

  typical creating photography writing [TS]

  everything the creation act is always [TS]

  hard the gaming is weird because to [TS]

  consume it you are also partially [TS]

  participating and that's the one of the [TS]

  you know that that distinguishes games [TS]

  from these other media that people think [TS]

  are analogous because you are not [TS]

  creating music by listening to it you [TS]

  are not creating a movie about watching [TS]

  it right you are not creating a novel by [TS]

  reading it and the participation [TS]

  required of you there's a low skill [TS]

  barrier listening to music and enjoying [TS]

  it that's not you know that's [TS]

  practically something that's innate [TS]

  almost as close as you can get right [TS]

  watch [TS]

  movie it helps to have that cultural [TS]

  background the knowledge and everything [TS]

  but there's no skill factor really in [TS]

  terms of watching better I did make this [TS]

  point in the very first episode about [TS]

  this and music is the same way so [TS]

  Jonathan goes on to say there are no [TS]

  simple consumers of creative video games [TS]

  what is unusual about video games is the [TS]

  drive from the audience and the industry [TS]

  to legitimate for the genome ization is [TS]

  a art form [TS]

  Tenace had never attempted to legitimize [TS]

  itself as high art and is perceived as [TS]

  it is a participant in that sport [TS]

  tracted consumers in the form of the [TS]

  audience video games seem to be [TS]

  relatively unique in that there are [TS]

  participatory activity seeking to be [TS]

  legitimize it's an art form so I'm going [TS]

  to talk more about legitimization in art [TS]

  forms a little bit later but this [TS]

  distinction between producer and [TS]

  consumer participant and creator is I [TS]

  think key to understanding what's going [TS]

  on here because there are no simple [TS]

  consumers of video games you must [TS]

  participate in the and that's why I was [TS]

  trying to get last time with like the [TS]

  two-way communication between the [TS]

  original creator of the game and the [TS]

  player they are communicating over time [TS]

  to help create this thing and it's not [TS]

  completely performance art and the [TS]

  player isn't creating the game the game [TS]

  was created for him but there's a [TS]

  necessary participation participation [TS]

  element that requires skill and yes [TS]

  knowledge and experience like many other [TS]

  things to do that that it's like a [TS]

  barrier to consumption there and Adam [TS]

  drew had another email instead of blog [TS]

  post about the same thing classic gaming [TS]

  is not a form of art consumption is a [TS]

  form of art performance the player does [TS]

  not consume the art of the game he or [TS]

  she performs it and again I think [TS]

  there's a lotta mungus component of that [TS]

  that's done by the Creator you're not [TS]

  really performing it the same way as you [TS]

  were I think it's even different like [TS]

  say oh the composer writes the symphony [TS]

  and then a musician performs it and then [TS]

  the people listen well it's still [TS]

  different than that because the composer [TS]

  in that analogy is the person who [TS]

  created the game but the player doesn't [TS]

  just perform the game like you're not [TS]

  following a series of instructions and [TS]

  doing what the composer said and yes [TS]

  this plenty of room for variation and [TS]

  playing style stuff like that but the [TS]

  variation in gameplay you can do things [TS]

  that the original creator of the game [TS]

  didn't intend at all like that's the [TS]

  beauty of gaming that you are it's not a [TS]

  direct type of thing where I make the [TS]

  game you play the game you do exactly [TS]

  what I wanted with variations in style [TS]

  or whatever you want it's not what it's [TS]

  like it's much [TS]

  more much more variation between the you [TS]

  know the game that was created and the [TS]

  way the player experiences it and also [TS]

  the person who's playing the game who's [TS]

  consumed he's also the consumer you say [TS]

  well what if someone's watching him it's [TS]

  not like the music listener [TS]

  it's like someone writes a symphony [TS]

  someone plays it and some dude listens [TS]

  to the symphony in gaming the person [TS]

  listening and the person playing are the [TS]

  same and again I don't think the person [TS]

  playing is simply carrying out the [TS]

  instructions of the game creator far [TS]

  from it that's not what gaming is like [TS]

  it's not what gaming is about and then [TS]

  the more games get towards that more [TS]

  people tend not to like them it's being [TS]

  just like oh I'm just basically pressing [TS]

  a bunch of buttons to make a movie play [TS]

  in front of me using computer graphics [TS]

  characters instead of you know [TS]

  pre-rendered things that's not what [TS]

  gaming is about let's see we're gonna go [TS]

  so he makes another good analogy here [TS]

  the reason I included is that he says [TS]

  the emergence of recording artists and [TS]

  their much wider mark ability with a [TS]

  double-edged sword for music it was [TS]

  great that music got a larger exposure [TS]

  and that people can make a boatload of [TS]

  money for music but it also replaced [TS]

  learning playing and performing music as [TS]

  a prior previously primary vehicles for [TS]

  music appreciation so he's making the [TS]

  comparison between like you know back [TS]

  before we had record players and radio [TS]

  and stuff like that the way people [TS]

  experience music was they had to learn [TS]

  how to play it but I think music music [TS]

  had a barrier to distribution which led [TS]

  to people having to learn how to play [TS]

  because if you couldn't where could you [TS]

  get music there was no radio there was [TS]

  no record store if you wanted to have [TS]

  music someone in your village or [TS]

  whatever had to know how to play right [TS]

  and this again definite skill barrier to [TS]

  production if you want to have music in [TS]

  your home someone in your families got [TS]

  to learn how to play there's a huge [TS]

  skill barrier to doing that like all art [TS]

  forms but the consumers still had no [TS]

  skill barrier you go down to the pub and [TS]

  you listen you didn't know have to know [TS]

  how to play if your dad knew how to play [TS]

  the fiddle you sit there and you listen [TS]

  right no skill barrier to consumption [TS]

  and a clear pretty clear separation [TS]

  between consumption and creation and the [TS]

  idea of performance that's kind of what [TS]

  they were getting at and the are things [TS]

  like performance I don't think it's the [TS]

  same as performing a play or performing [TS]

  a piece of music I think it's much [TS]

  there's much greater variation in that [TS]

  and the creative act is not the same as [TS]

  writing a book writing a play or [TS]

  composing a song but [TS]

  and I also think the consumer is also [TS]

  the person doing the performance so it [TS]

  is weird in many different ways but this [TS]

  this distinction is important between [TS]

  producer consumer performer and how [TS]

  those blend and combine and who takes [TS]

  what roles in the creative process let's [TS]

  see more on participation casual games [TS]

  uh I'll read this part here it's the [TS]

  last part from true in my view the [TS]

  emergence of modern casual games is [TS]

  directly analogous to the emergence of [TS]

  recording artists in the early to mid [TS]

  20th century as the art form is matured [TS]

  and the devices that can play them have [TS]

  become more ubiquitous the audience of [TS]

  people who appreciate facets of gaming [TS]

  such as the fun graphic sense of reward [TS]

  bragging rights and things of that [TS]

  nature has increased [TS]

  however the pool of people people with [TS]

  skill to play games has not so he's [TS]

  comparing casual games to like well [TS]

  casual games or equivalent to the people [TS]

  who just listen to pre-recorded music [TS]

  whereas the hardcore gamers are the [TS]

  people who would learn how to play I [TS]

  think this is again I think this is an [TS]

  imperfect analogy but it's interesting [TS]

  in that it it does echo the [TS]

  marginalization of the people who are of [TS]

  the people with skills in favor of the [TS]

  people with lesser skills it doesn't it [TS]

  like the broadening the base of music [TS]

  making more people be able to get it [TS]

  music he's saying has similar to has not [TS]

  isn't that has made everyone into music [TS]

  players so hey now everyone listen to [TS]

  the radio everyone will know how to play [TS]

  that's not how it works people will just [TS]

  consume it by listening they will not [TS]

  all go out and learn as anything about [TS]

  lessen the number of people who need to [TS]

  learn how to play and so as gaming has [TS]

  become popular it's saying the pool of [TS]

  people with skills to play games has not [TS]

  broadened I think it has broaden [TS]

  tremendously simply from exposure but [TS]

  it's still a vanishingly small [TS]

  percentage of the total people who play [TS]

  Angry Birds or whatever so finally I [TS]

  think it's the end of the game thing on [TS]

  God's it goes on forever games as art [TS]

  this is something that I mentioned the [TS]

  way we started heard about in the [TS]

  previous letter and a couple people [TS]

  wrote in to ask me about David she was [TS]

  right saying to say one thing that [TS]

  interests me greatly is why so many [TS]

  gamers seem to feel the need to defend [TS]

  games as being art I'm not sure what the [TS]

  goal is here is it being labeled as art [TS]

  somehow give games a magic shield or [TS]

  invulnerability from criticism [TS]

  you know what why why is it that gamers [TS]

  want games to be known as art and a past [TS]

  show I mentioned that I just thought [TS]

  that they were and that wasn't something [TS]

  I wanted to talk about but I think it's [TS]

  worth discussing as people keep bringing [TS]

  it up I think the you know why why the [TS]

  gamers feel the need to defend games as [TS]

  being art it's mostly defensive I think [TS]

  it's not something that I ever saw [TS]

  offered by gamers like they weren't [TS]

  promoting it until there was an attack [TS]

  until many people would say the games [TS]

  aren't hard so it's a reaction to people [TS]

  trying to belittle gaming and obviously [TS]

  the reaction of gamers to people trying [TS]

  to blow gaming is to defend so it's [TS]

  entirely defensive in my view and why [TS]

  are they defending why do they even care [TS]

  well gamers want other people to [TS]

  experience what they experience but [TS]

  gaming they know gaming has like the [TS]

  stigma as a time waster and a frivolous [TS]

  thing and they think it's great and [TS]

  maybe no one will say anything until [TS]

  that until someone comes out and says oh [TS]

  well you know games are not art and are [TS]

  to something good and and something with [TS]

  not art is lesser and we are now saying [TS]

  that games will always be stupid time [TS]

  wasters and they're not a worthwhile [TS]

  pursuit and then gamers get upset about [TS]

  that as many people who wrote in and [TS]

  many people who have debated this online [TS]

  and stuff have pointed out people said [TS]

  the same thing about the novel now you [TS]

  know this it's a silly time waster [TS]

  Mitchell Cohen wrote in to give me a his [TS]

  passage here is the first 18th century [TS]

  novels were stigmatized as trifling [TS]

  indulgences for idle women since their [TS]

  contents were fictional and therefore [TS]

  have no use to working adults and there [TS]

  are many things you can google for the [TS]

  things that we said about novels because [TS]

  it just seemed like garbage words today [TS]

  novels are like oh my child is reading [TS]

  books isn't that wonderful [TS]

  no one says what he's reading fiction [TS]

  that trash he needs to get out and plow [TS]

  the fields I don't know what they wanted [TS]

  to do instead of I guess read nonfiction [TS]

  or you know learn about fake science so [TS]

  it's kind of natural for any new medium [TS]

  to go through this thing where people [TS]

  say it's not worthwhile it's it's it [TS]

  rots your brain it's not a worthy [TS]

  intellectual pursuit it's not hard or [TS]

  whatever and videogames are new mediums [TS]

  so I think you have to expect this now [TS]

  Roger Morgan wrote in to say [TS]

  I have to take issue with the way you [TS]

  begged the question regarding the notion [TS]

  of video games that video games are an [TS]

  artform [TS]

  perhaps they are but you simply asserted [TS]

  this and then drew conclusion based on [TS]

  that assertion [TS]

  so Roger Morgan is probably very proud [TS]

  of himself for successfully using beg [TS]

  the question which is very rare in the [TS]

  internet the wrong way for people who [TS]

  don't know that they use it as they use [TS]

  it to mean which leads me to ask the [TS]

  question so you know this begs the [TS]

  question that bla bla bla what you're [TS]

  trying to say is this leads me to ask [TS]

  the question XY and Z but that's not [TS]

  what beg the question actually means I [TS]

  put a link to the Wikipedia page of [TS]

  course and the show notes about this the [TS]

  little summer here is begging the [TS]

  question is a type of logical fallacy in [TS]

  which a proposition is made that uses [TS]

  its own premise as proof of the [TS]

  proposition so despite Roger using the [TS]

  phrase correctly I don't think it [TS]

  applies to what I was talking about [TS]

  because I was using games as art as a [TS]

  premise and sort of if you accept the [TS]

  games that art then I say the games have [TS]

  an odd characteristic most found not [TS]

  found in most other forms of art it's [TS]

  not like games art was being used to [TS]

  support the proposition the games have a [TS]

  skill barrier consumption right it was [TS]

  the premise and yet you can reject the [TS]

  premise and then you don't you know you [TS]

  don't agree with me that's fine but it [TS]

  wasn't them being art was not used to [TS]

  support my proposition that there's a [TS]

  skill barrier to consumption that there [TS]

  are among art forms so I I would say [TS]

  that that is correct use of the phrase [TS]

  but not entirely applicable but on the [TS]

  substance of what were you saying oh he [TS]

  says he says he's neutral on this topic [TS]

  having never having been particularly [TS]

  drawn to these games I would be [TS]

  generally interested to know how you [TS]

  come to the conclusion that they're an [TS]

  art form are you talking from the [TS]

  creative perspective of the players [TS]

  would love to hear the reasoning on the [TS]

  internet and on podcast I have not been [TS]

  particularly interested in defending [TS]

  this premise that I have like I [TS]

  mentioned it just offhand last oh that [TS]

  but I do strongly believe that they are [TS]

  art but really the reason it's not an [TS]

  interesting debate to me because it's [TS]

  its semantics it's not games are art [TS]

  it's really my definition of art either [TS]

  includes or excludes games because games [TS]

  are what they are right and so all [TS]

  you're really debating is what your [TS]

  definitions of art are so lots of people [TS]

  are say well my definition art [TS]

  doesn't include games and here's why and [TS]

  other people say well my definition does [TS]

  include and you just debate forever [TS]

  about your definitions of art doesn't [TS]

  change what games are my definition of [TS]

  art includes games if yours doesn't then [TS]

  you know fine if we can agree on the [TS]

  definition then we can have a debate [TS]

  about whether games qualify but always [TS]

  the debate is the other way people are [TS]

  just shifting around their definitions [TS]

  to conform to what they wanted not [TS]

  saying before we begin a debate we would [TS]

  agree we agree that this is our and then [TS]

  we can argue about whether games call [TS]

  your saying you need you need a [TS]

  definition of art to begin with before [TS]

  you can even engage in a debate with [TS]

  these people you just have that first [TS]

  agreement as a presupposition yeah [TS]

  otherwise yours goalposts moving the [TS]

  whole time all you're doing is just [TS]

  shifting around your definition like [TS]

  that you see that in all the time of [TS]

  mostly for the people who are like [TS]

  obviously I'm reading I'm reading the [TS]

  ones where the people who are saying [TS]

  it's not art or getting trashed right so [TS]

  they'll they'll say games are not art [TS]

  because art has to XY and Z and then 50 [TS]

  gamers who write in and say well here [TS]

  these games do XY and Z and they'll say [TS]

  well also art has to do PQ and X and [TS]

  like it's just constant back and forth [TS]

  they keep changing the definition [TS]

  because every they'll make a definition [TS]

  they're like well you know art has to [TS]

  evoke emotional reaction this is [TS]

  obviously made up right this is a silly [TS]

  example art has to emotion emotional [TS]

  reaction games cannot evoke emotion [TS]

  reaction therefore games are not art and [TS]

  so dudes write in and say I cried when [TS]

  I'm playing this game correct right and [TS]

  then they say well but art also has to [TS]

  do and they just keep changing you know [TS]

  you just shifting the goalposts [TS]

  constantly that's the way many internet [TS]

  debates go and so those were silly [TS]

  examples but that's what I see a lot of [TS]

  and it's like if they coming to an [TS]

  agreement about what art is is almost as [TS]

  difficult about coming to agreement [TS]

  about what life is and I find the life [TS]

  one much more interesting because I know [TS]

  so much less about biology actually I [TS]

  wish I had a link to this but this some [TS]

  good articles in recent years about the [TS]

  increasing realization among scientists [TS]

  that there is no reasonable definition [TS]

  of what life is because every time you [TS]

  try to define it like there's some [TS]

  exception is found and it eventually [TS]

  it's like life there's no such thing as [TS]

  life you know you the definitions are [TS]

  broad now that it encompasses everything [TS]

  it's impossible to exclude anything [TS]

  because we keep finding counter examples [TS]

  and so what the hell is life it makes no [TS]

  sense I always like things like that but [TS]

  for art I bet there probably is a [TS]

  definition but if you're going to debate [TS]

  with somebody about whether games are [TS]

  not you have [TS]

  in that definition and that's I think [TS]

  where I would end because my definition [TS]

  totally necessarily includes it and they [TS]

  would not agree to my definition and so [TS]

  debate over so I'm not particularly [TS]

  interested in defending it I would just [TS]

  say that I think games are worthwhile [TS]

  are worthy of your investment of time [TS]

  and an effort and emotion and everything [TS]

  and they're as worthy as any form of art [TS]

  whether you think games are art or not I [TS]

  think they are among the most worthy [TS]

  thing you could possibly do with your [TS]

  time for entertainment purposes and [TS]

  that's that's the point I would try to [TS]

  get across to somebody no I wouldn't try [TS]

  to convince them the games or I would [TS]

  try to convince into the games or [TS]

  something that it should be part of [TS]

  their life in some way because they're [TS]

  worthwhile and they can decide what they [TS]

  think about them right so the end of [TS]

  this thing from Roger it says people who [TS]

  enjoy football aren't clamoring to find [TS]

  legitimacy by being described as art [TS]

  reality TV shows don't seem to feel the [TS]

  need to define themselves at art so why [TS]

  is it such a preoccupation with gamers [TS]

  does it makes games any less enjoyable [TS]

  unless the gym if there aren't art again [TS]

  I don't think it's a preoccupation with [TS]

  gamers until they were attacked I think [TS]

  a lot of people in TV industry would be [TS]

  really upset and vocal if a well-known [TS]

  movie critic publicly proclaimed it like [TS]

  TV shows can never be art if there was [TS]

  some sort of critic and are some sort of [TS]

  person in another industry or someone in [TS]

  theater that says theater is our but [TS]

  television shows can never be our not [TS]

  like a particular reality show is not [TS]

  art not the new Housewives of whatever [TS]

  County is not our but TV shows can never [TS]

  be art if anyone who had any sort of [TS]

  public platform came out to say that [TS]

  especially with someone associated with [TS]

  another medium like theater or something [TS]

  all right you pick the people all of a [TS]

  sudden you'd be hearing all these TV [TS]

  shows and then people saying why are [TS]

  these TV people also preoccupied but [TS]

  they're considering their medium art [TS]

  what are they trying to prove because [TS]

  they were just working under the [TS]

  assumption like gamers were that of [TS]

  course television shows can be are like [TS]

  there's no exclusion of course they can [TS]

  and it was just that you never heard [TS]

  them talk about it because like duh like [TS]

  the same way gamers pretty much also of [TS]

  course get games art you know like is [TS]

  that a debate until someone comes out [TS]

  and says games as a concept can never be [TS]

  art and then you get a lot of crankiness [TS]

  so I think it is defensive it's not [TS]

  offensive they're not you know they're [TS]

  not out trying to evangelize games as [TS]

  art but when someone starts crapping on [TS]

  them and saying it's not you would see [TS]

  exactly the same thing in any other [TS]

  media [TS]

  if you all say well of course TV shows [TS]

  actually are that's why they were [TS]

  complain but games aren't yeah well you [TS]

  see how it goes one final one in games [TS]

  and then we'll probably the cap this [TS]

  will say let's do our final sponsor then [TS]

  oh you got three two they only have [TS]

  three go for it because when the shows [TS]

  get longer you know we've got a we've [TS]

  got to subsidize the cost because every [TS]

  second that I talk is another 13 cents [TS]

  83 minutes 43 seconds so far yeah and [TS]

  the hard drive can only handle another [TS]

  318 so alright squarespace.com they just [TS]

  added self foot so first of all what is [TS]

  Squarespace because there there are [TS]

  probably a few people who don't know [TS]

  it's everything you need to create an [TS]

  amazing website they do the hosting of [TS]

  it they scale it when you get a lot of [TS]

  traffic they have a really really great [TS]

  analytics and they have 24/7 support in [TS]

  case you run into trouble I've got [TS]

  beautiful templates more than 85 85 [TS]

  professionally designed style variants [TS]

  from big-time designers you [TS]

  point-and-click control over every [TS]

  single element or you can just [TS]

  completely customize it on your own it [TS]

  has the integration with all the social [TS]

  tools that you like to use but here's [TS]

  the big thing this is the big news they [TS]

  now have free custom domain names this [TS]

  free if you sign up for a year with them [TS]

  if you don't sign up for a year it's a [TS]

  it's not free but they register it all [TS]

  in one one step so you go in there [TS]

  you've never used Squarespace before you [TS]

  sign up you create your account and you [TS]

  register the domain name it takes [TS]

  minutes and you have a full-fledged site [TS]

  up and running you don't have to go to [TS]

  separate registrar you don't have to do [TS]

  it it's all integrated it's all right [TS]

  there and it's free if you sign up for [TS]

  their one-year thing that you don't have [TS]

  to you can go month-to-month with them [TS]

  it's ten bucks a month if you do that if [TS]

  you sign up for a year it goes down to [TS]

  eight bucks a month you get the free [TS]

  domain and if you use the coupon code [TS]

  and sent me five the number five Dan [TS]

  sent me number five you get an [TS]

  additional ten percent off so if you [TS]

  just wanna go month-to-month then you [TS]

  get ten percent off you go for a year [TS]

  you get the domain you get eight bucks a [TS]

  month and then you apply the domain [TS]

  the coupon code on top it's a pretty [TS]

  good deal these guys are really great [TS]

  squarespace.com I'm moving as much as I [TS]

  can over them because I'm just I'm tired [TS]

  of dealing with hosting stuff myself I [TS]

  don't have to it's all going their [TS]

  squarespace.com Dan sent me five it's [TS]

  all you need to know they should do like [TS]

  that one of those late-night TV [TS]

  infomercial or commercial things where [TS]

  there's only some device they want you [TS]

  to buy like that takes the shell off an [TS]

  egg or something and they show like [TS]

  making eggs is such a pain official the [TS]

  person trying to make eggs like the eggs [TS]

  are in their hair and eggs are up their [TS]

  nose right does everything as a disaster [TS]

  and their hair is all frazzled they they [TS]

  look at the camera and go ah I'm so [TS]

  exasperated and then you see the new [TS]

  shiny things they should it's very [TS]

  difficult to show the frustration of bad [TS]

  hosting on television but if they can [TS]

  pull it off yeah right [TS]

  when John reminds me that the fallacy I [TS]

  was trying to get out before with the [TS]

  the goalposts moving is the no truth no [TS]

  true Scotsman thing I should put that in [TS]

  the show notes to people who don't know [TS]

  what that is they can google it TV in [TS]

  the chatroom is saying that uh the games [TS]

  is our thing has gone way beyond [TS]

  defensiveness I would say yes it's a [TS]

  counter-attack at this point and I think [TS]

  it's kind of a wake-up call because [TS]

  again you don't see television show [TS]

  people producers a television show out [TS]

  there evangelizing the fact that [TS]

  television shows there are and why [TS]

  didn't you see that because no one is [TS]

  questioning that and like it's just an [TS]

  assumption that we all agree on all [TS]

  right not that all TV shows are art but [TS]

  that TV shows can be art like that it is [TS]

  possible that it is not excluded [TS]

  categorically by the medium or whatever [TS]

  right and I think gamers and gaming was [TS]

  in that state for a long time or like [TS]

  was just an assumption and when it was [TS]

  revealed that this assumption was not [TS]

  shared by the rest of society then you [TS]

  get the counter-attack so yeah it's [TS]

  going to be on an offensive now for a [TS]

  long time it's an activist type movement [TS]

  uh but it was triggered by you know it's [TS]

  it's defensive in origin like everyone [TS]

  gamers are sitting there going light of [TS]

  course this games just like the TV [TS]

  people are now so that's what I feel [TS]

  about that oh so someone suggested by [TS]

  the way and so probably being the show [TS]

  things the Housewives for Syracuse [TS]

  accounting I don't know if we can double [TS]

  up on the County thing I think we can [TS]

  yeah I know you like it but it really is [TS]

  totally disjoint it just happens to [TS]

  share the structure and the names [TS]

  because it's different you know it's [TS]

  television show instead of movie reality [TS]

  Bella I don't we'll see how I feel I [TS]

  like it so here's one from another game [TS]

  ol gamer Michael O'Hara no apostrophe no [TS]

  space capital L capital H it does sound [TS]

  like a real name though yeah says I was [TS]

  really into games like Miss driven and [TS]

  such I certainly believe that my [TS]

  methodical troubleshooting nature helped [TS]

  me develop very high skills to play [TS]

  these types of games I watched a number [TS]

  of people in my crowd who just couldn't [TS]

  get how to do these kinds of things you [TS]

  describe in today's games like moving [TS]

  around visual acuity shortcuts etc and [TS]

  this inclusion is some of us can be very [TS]

  skilled indeed with the complex [TS]

  difficult games just not the kind of [TS]

  games you're talking about this is [TS]

  definitely true there is a whole other [TS]

  category of games which as many people [TS]

  are said about has become much less [TS]

  popular but the kind of games where the [TS]

  skill barrier it it to entry is not [TS]

  about physical hand-eye coordination so [TS]

  much as puzzle solving and problem [TS]

  solving like it used to be that that was [TS]

  a whole very popular genre of game Myst [TS]

  yeah or the you know the Sierra Tex the [TS]

  Sierra graphical adventures oh sure [TS]

  stuff and before that the text adventure [TS]

  games where you were being faced with [TS]

  basically brain teaser type puzzles of [TS]

  varying levels of fairness there's a [TS]

  good incomparable podcast about text [TS]

  adventures that people should find that [TS]

  they're interested uh you played Ultima [TS]

  right no I did not play Ultima well I [TS]

  might've sidesaddle played that I [TS]

  remember I had a Mac so any game that [TS]

  was only available on a PC I have to [TS]

  watch my friend play over his house or [TS]

  help him play but I don't think really [TS]

  got into Ultima we did I the beholder [TS]

  and a couple of SSI stuff but not Ultima [TS]

  uh so Ultima Ultimo's a Commodore 64 [TS]

  game well I mean I'm not saying it [TS]

  wasn't a PC game for me the way I think [TS]

  of it the early Altimas Commodore 64 ya [TS]

  know I never had a c64 vic-20 yeah not [TS]

  bad not a bad machine that's terrible ah [TS]

  so he goes on to the Mon the current [TS]

  state of games the games today have gone [TS]

  on the same road gone the same Road to [TS]

  Perdition that happens to movies movies [TS]

  today are almost entirely about shock [TS]

  and awe the CGI and violence scene one [TS]

  you've probably seen most of them the [TS]

  state of games today is the same no one [TS]

  makes mine challenging games like Riven [TS]

  anymore [TS]

  they are a much smaller percentage of [TS]

  the market that is true this type of [TS]

  venture game is now so narrow that only [TS]

  a few super nerds are into it and these [TS]

  are nerds who they have a different kind [TS]

  of skills where you put you put the [TS]

  average person in front of like [TS]

  Hitchhiker's Guide to the galaxy text [TS]

  adventure they get nowhere and you could [TS]

  say well they could get somewhere if [TS]

  they even cared but there's no way [TS]

  they're going to bang their head against [TS]

  that wall because and again it's gets [TS]

  back to can they learn that skill versus [TS]

  will they learn it I you know the end [TS]

  results is the same they will not finish [TS]

  that game whether because they can or [TS]

  never could or just simply don't want to [TS]

  learn they won't but there are people [TS]

  who do like these kinds of games and [TS]

  there are there are a smaller percentage [TS]

  of the market than they used to be I [TS]

  agree with that so second collusion is [TS]

  they're only making games that are 100 [TS]

  different ways to kill no wonder as a [TS]

  society we have a problem with men [TS]

  desensitized to violence I would say [TS]

  about this and about you know games like [TS]

  Riven and as a percentage of the overall [TS]

  gaming and games just being shocking on [TS]

  stuff like that in the absence of any [TS]

  kind of artificial controls any mass [TS]

  media is going to end up with a mix of [TS]

  content that reflects human nature and a [TS]

  lot of people don't like that reflection [TS]

  like I think you know if you don't have [TS]

  any sort of controls like where there's [TS]

  someone determining what is worthy of [TS]

  being shown or whatever those kind of [TS]

  artificial controls where you know some [TS]

  powerful cabal and Hollywood decides [TS]

  that or you know the comic book code is [TS]

  an example from your world if they just [TS]

  decide that there's only going to be [TS]

  certain kind of things that they think [TS]

  are appropriate to seeing comic books [TS]

  and stuff like that right no vampires no [TS]

  vampires yeah those are artificial [TS]

  controls right but in the absence of [TS]

  artificial controls any kind of media TV [TS]

  books movie any kind of art form [TS]

  painting music anything is going to be a [TS]

  reflection of human nature [TS]

  percentage-wise [TS]

  and like it or not you know adolescent [TS]

  boys like killing things and they like [TS]

  sexy ladies and all these things that we [TS]

  you know that intellectually we think [TS]

  are you know Basin and not particularly [TS]

  enlightened if you don't have some sort [TS]

  of control forcing the media to avoid [TS]

  the things that we think are an [TS]

  enlightened you're going to end up with [TS]

  that right and one of the artificial [TS]

  controls is obscurity if a media like [TS]

  games is obscure a lot of people don't [TS]

  even know about don't even play it [TS]

  there's such a small audience that is [TS]

  not yet such a giant lucrative draw [TS]

  that it can't be resisted right it takes [TS]

  less willpower to produce produce [TS]

  sophisticated games when you're not [TS]

  foregoing a giant windfall by doing so [TS]

  right you say well there's only like 50 [TS]

  people in the whole world who play games [TS]

  anyway so I don't need to make the space [TS]

  marine you know shoot them up boob space [TS]

  galaxy adventure game when I'm not going [TS]

  to get any more of the market than I [TS]

  would if I just sold like a really [TS]

  sophisticated interesting text I'll get [TS]

  100% of the market by selling the [TS]

  Hitchhiker's Guide you know to text [TS]

  adventure game for these nerds I don't [TS]

  have to to dumb it down and make it [TS]

  broader right uh but now the gaming is [TS]

  widespread you it starts to become more [TS]

  like movies become more of a reflection [TS]

  of society as a whole percentage-wise [TS]

  there are great movies but there are a [TS]

  small percentage very enlightened movies [TS]

  you know that been there movies that [TS]

  just appeal to our baser instincts and [TS]

  they make a lot of money and so they [TS]

  keep getting made that's capitalism [TS]

  right uh but all that said I think there [TS]

  are more good games available today than [TS]

  ever there yes they are a smaller [TS]

  percentage of the overall thing and yes [TS]

  is this you know the ones that get most [TS]

  publicity and have awareness are those [TS]

  very broad games that are not in [TS]

  particularly sophisticated and don't [TS]

  appeal to those you know discerning [TS]

  gamers right that's what gets the press [TS]

  but in terms of raw numbers I think [TS]

  there are more great games now than [TS]

  there ever were simply because they're [TS]

  just more games overall so Michael [TS]

  continues if the definition of skills is [TS]

  simply a premium on fast reaction and [TS]

  kill before being killed that leaves [TS]

  behind a whole other whole lot of other [TS]

  skills usually ones that require some [TS]

  intelligence and at least value thought [TS]

  over raw primal skills it's not that [TS]

  they're being pushed into premium is [TS]

  just a different kind of skill barrier [TS]

  and the skill barrier I'm talking about [TS]

  is it's much worse than like you know [TS]

  very few people can can play through one [TS]

  of those text adventure games or will [TS]

  play through them because they find them [TS]

  frustrating nothing interesting it's [TS]

  just kind of obscure and you have to be [TS]

  really into that kind of like people who [TS]

  are into like super hard crossword [TS]

  puzzles most people like crossword [TS]

  puzzles but at a certain point you're [TS]

  weeding everybody out and it's like oh [TS]

  well these people seek out the super [TS]

  hard crossword puzzles because that's [TS]

  what they need to to be a challenge and [TS]

  to be interesting to them right I'm [TS]

  talking more about games they really are [TS]

  odd like I think journey is a super [TS]

  broad game that anyone can appreciate [TS]

  without any history in gaming knowing I [TS]

  think about it except for the fact that [TS]

  they can't successfully play it and [TS]

  that's the frustrating thing to me that [TS]

  that that is not a really obscure thing [TS]

  or what a bit that only a few people can [TS]

  appreciate it but it's just regular [TS]

  people being prevented from experiencing [TS]

  it because they lack these basic skills [TS]

  to play games they really don't have [TS]

  anything to do with the game they just [TS]

  assume that you're supposed to have it [TS]

  he continues as someone who parents kids [TS]

  I don't like kids playing such violent [TS]

  trash and no World of Warcraft is not [TS]

  analogous to pinochle this kind of [TS]

  revelation drives me crazy and his final [TS]

  conclusion societies in decline we are [TS]

  doomed but young people haven't figured [TS]

  it out and there are too many older [TS]

  folks who will sell the young whatever [TS]

  they want so in reaction to this letter [TS]

  I will quote this thing that I googled [TS]

  the heck out of to try to find the [TS]

  sourcing for but the Google results were [TS]

  totally destroyed by spammy reposting [TS]

  garbage results where they need to get [TS]

  their act together children the children [TS]

  now love luxury they have bad manners [TS]

  contempt for authority and they show [TS]

  disrespect for elders and love chatter [TS]

  in place of exercise children out IRA [TS]

  not the servants of their households [TS]

  they no longer rise when elders into the [TS]

  room they contradict their parents [TS]

  chatter before company gobble up dandies [TS]

  of the table across their legs and [TS]

  tyrannize their teachers this probably [TS]

  poorly translated probably misattributed [TS]

  quote about the kids today often seen on [TS]

  the Internet is attributed by Plato to [TS]

  Socrates around 420 BC so kids today [TS]

  it's eternal refrain what they're doing [TS]

  is bad they are badly behaved they go [TS]

  into hell and handbasket Socrates [TS]

  thought it and 400-something BC every [TS]

  person thinks it today I don't think [TS]

  it's any more or less true at any one of [TS]

  those times I think world work is [TS]

  analogous to pinochle in the sense that [TS]

  I was discussing it which is the idea [TS]

  that certain things that you play as a [TS]

  child you should stop playing as an [TS]

  adult because they're frivolous and no [TS]

  one seems to say that about pinochle as [TS]

  people continue to play it well into old [TS]

  age but for video games and media that [TS]

  did not exist when the current [TS]

  generation of old people were young [TS]

  uh they think it's some crazy thing that [TS]

  the kids are doing and it surely it's [TS]

  only for kids three generations and now [TS]

  when we're three generations through [TS]

  adults you know we're long past the [TS]

  point where adults of the vast majority [TS]

  of gamers but many generations from now [TS]

  from the people who were not alive uh [TS]

  people who were alive when there were no [TS]

  video games all them are dead I think it [TS]

  will be more like pinochle ah Michael [TS]

  doesn't give any particular arguments on [TS]

  why it's not analogous to pinochle [TS]

  probably because pinochle existed before [TS]

  he was born but video games did not that [TS]

  is my guess so [TS]

  when I listen to myself in this episode [TS]

  we'll see how much about gaming I miss [TS]

  but I think I got it all this in my a my [TS]

  leaving any holes here [TS]

  you're asking me you're the gear the [TS]

  game or you're the expert I know this is [TS]

  the three Episode attempt to articulate [TS]

  some half-formed topic that I could not [TS]

  have written about successfully because [TS]

  obviously I hadn't thought it through [TS]

  enough and yet if we get three shows [TS]

  worth of content under I think I think [TS]

  it's interesting for me to think about [TS]

  again getting back to Merlin's thing is [TS]

  the podcast being like a first draft and [TS]

  your ideas I think this is you select [TS]

  the exercise is produced a lot of good [TS]

  thoughtful feedback and and blog posts [TS]

  and tweets about it so I hope people [TS]

  enjoyed it as people people loved your [TS]

  discussion of gaming they wish there was [TS]

  a gaming show and they wish you would do [TS]

  it yeah well you know I can't do a [TS]

  gaming show end this show and as I think [TS]

  I've discussed this before but you keep [TS]

  bringing it up so I'll talk about it [TS]

  again the reason I don't think I could [TS]

  do a regular gaming podcast is I don't [TS]

  play enough games gaming and gaming [TS]

  podcast people want to hear about you [TS]

  know what do you think about this game [TS]

  and every time that would come up I [TS]

  would say I don't know I haven't played [TS]

  it I don't know I haven't played it I [TS]

  don't know I haven't played it I don't [TS]

  plan to play it I'm not qualified to do [TS]

  that no let me let me let me toss out an [TS]

  idea for you it's just an idea you're [TS]

  gonna have to run with this if you want [TS]

  to do it but here's my response to that [TS]

  statement which you repeat every time [TS]

  what if we were to start a Kickstarter [TS]

  project so that those interested could [TS]

  subsidize a salary for you to do your [TS]

  own gaming show podcast [TS]

  assuming we could not get any sponsors [TS]

  for it and they could raise enough to [TS]

  you know create a salary for you for [TS]

  several years and then you could do a [TS]

  gaming show and you would have enough [TS]

  time because now you're in all of your [TS]

  free time whatever your hands could [TS]

  physically do [TS]

  could be spent playing games and then [TS]

  you could talk about them yeah you're [TS]

  correct we found the other problem which [TS]

  is that even if I had unlimited time [TS]

  could I actually physically play all [TS]

  these games probably not probably not [TS]

  yeah do you do you know how what your [TS]

  physical limits would be without you [TS]

  know creating an injury those who don't [TS]

  know we're talking about John and I [TS]

  don't know the episode number offhand [TS]

  maybe you remember it number six I think [TS]

  okay so episode I'll verify that but [TS]

  episode number six you detail the RSI [TS]

  issues that you have and that those [TS]

  frivolous things yes RSI travel phobia [TS]

  I'll put that into the show notes you [TS]

  detail that you have some issues with [TS]

  RSI and that is why you dictate many of [TS]

  your long articles that you write about [TS]

  Mac os10 it's also a limiting factor in [TS]

  how many games you could play as well as [TS]

  how much typing you can do but what if [TS]

  you were to if you were no longer typing [TS]

  at work if your work was playing games [TS]

  perhaps it would balance out perhaps if [TS]

  the audience is serious enough they [TS]

  could raise another I don't know to play [TS]

  more games but probably not enough to be [TS]

  like I see how many games like that the [TS]

  actual gamer he was like Ben Kuchera who [TS]

  used to work for hours now we're [TS]

  spending our kid he plays a tremendous [TS]

  number of games I know how long he's [TS]

  playing the games because I know how [TS]

  long these games take to complete and I [TS]

  know which games he's completed right [TS]

  and I just could not take that much just [TS]

  just could I mean it even comes up with [TS]

  typing like when I'm doing documentation [TS]

  at work that involves a lot more typing [TS]

  the programming because it is less like [TS]

  pausing to think or moving around or [TS]

  compiling or like clicking around in a [TS]

  web browser you know what I mean because [TS]

  documentation is just like writing [TS]

  straight yeah a good a good programmer [TS]

  you might even say a good programmer [TS]

  doesn't type that much yeah well you [TS]

  it's not it the very least there's more [TS]

  break so I find even just when I doing [TS]

  lots of documentation that starts [TS]

  reaching my limits if I was playing a [TS]

  video game with a controller for that [TS]

  amount of time I could not now so mainly [TS]

  the reason I don't think I do a game [TS]

  thing is I don't think I'm qualified you [TS]

  obviously disagree many other listeners [TS]

  disagree but I think the important [TS]

  person here is whether I think I'm [TS]

  qualified and I wouldn't I would never [TS]

  collect Kickstarter money to do [TS]

  something I'm not qualified for [TS]

  especially since that's such a thing [TS]

  with Kickstarter where people are not [TS]

  worried like some given all this money [TS]

  I'm actually gonna get anything I you [TS]

  know I don't think I'm qualified new [TS]

  gaming podcast and I think gaming is [TS]

  on topic ish for this thing and whenever [TS]

  we want to talk about gaming we can you [TS]

  know that's fine you know but the [TS]

  listeners will have to accept that yeah [TS]

  I mean sometimes we'll talk about file [TS]

  systems you know you never know what [TS]

  you're gonna get you don't know it's a [TS]

  mixed bag yeah outside not the analogy I [TS]

  would use it it's not the expression I [TS]

  would use box of chocolates yeah man [TS]

  we're getting better mixed bag is as a [TS]

  negative connotations because it's like [TS]

  some good and some bad it's an unknown [TS]

  quantity yeah [TS]

  all right are we done I was I do have a [TS]

  few more little things we want to do [TS]

  them but we can stop here if you'd like [TS]

  to I mean let's have what would wait a [TS]

  minute what is a few more little things [TS]

  I got the Dropbox app store retract [TS]

  rejections I've got a little bit [TS]

  Instagram and then some like remainder [TS]

  stuff so another couple hours well you [TS]

  know it's up to you we can we can be [TS]

  done here I'll save those for the next [TS]

  show if you want or I can do one of them [TS]

  or show you do what you and do do you [TS]

  have a schedule today you need to keep [TS]

  them I do but I'm already late for my [TS]

  appointment so now at this point you [TS]

  know well the whole day a whole day [TS]

  screwed so whatever you know what [TS]

  everyone do it let's do it go for it [TS]

  let's do another couple hours now we [TS]

  should stop then if you have to be [TS]

  something no that's it I'm already I [TS]

  already think I had to cancel it because [TS]

  it's right I'm already late well you [TS]

  know you were late to start this I know [TS]

  I'm pre camp Abed entirely on my own not [TS]

  entirely I assume to just just drop bar [TS]

  Dropbox app store rejections cuz I think [TS]

  that will be short let's see let's see [TS]

  don't limit yourself people love it when [TS]

  you go when you when you do like a two [TS]

  three hour show I mean that's what [TS]

  people really look that's what they line [TS]

  up for that's his listeners want you [TS]

  know give them what they want [TS]

  I've done three hour uncomparable z-- [TS]

  but they were split into two shows [TS]

  that's something you could sit it we [TS]

  could take these long ones you can you [TS]

  break it up into two shows a live [TS]

  listeners to get to hear at all but the [TS]

  other one else has to wait but then [TS]

  would we would we not do another show [TS]

  the following week I don't know you [TS]

  double it up you can start banking [TS]

  things you know give yourself some time [TS]

  off by by working a little bit harder [TS]

  that's right or actually working the [TS]

  same amount but just putting a cut in [TS]

  the middle of the fun I say do do both [TS]

  of the topics do the Dropbox thing and [TS]

  do the Instagram thing all right we'll [TS]

  see so the Dropbox apps are reductions I [TS]

  know you did talk about this your [TS]

  applications submitted to the iOS app [TS]

  store that are being rejected because [TS]

  within the interface there's some sort [TS]

  of Dropbox integration and when you try [TS]

  to integrating you don't have an account [TS]

  it says you know enter your login [TS]

  information here but if you don't have [TS]

  an account you know go here and you can [TS]

  get a Dropbox account and that [TS]

  eventually leads you to a Dropbox page [TS]

  where you you know enter information and [TS]

  even though Dropbox accounts are free [TS]

  there's also a way to give them money [TS]

  and apples rejecting it because under [TS]

  the umbrella of if you have an iOS [TS]

  application you can't solicit money from [TS]

  people through a web interface so Amazon [TS]

  Kindle application can't link the [TS]

  amazon.com to buy books you can't even [TS]

  link to the web page like you can't [TS]

  certainly you can't do it in the UI you [TS]

  can't have like a built-in UI a friend [TS]

  of mine doesn't [TS]

  he booked reader called e-reader or he [TS]

  broke the original version of it as a [TS]

  contractor and they had an interface [TS]

  inside it where without leaving the [TS]

  application you could buy ebooks which [TS]

  makes perfect sense right but Apple [TS]

  eventually put you know cut that out so [TS]

  I was like alright everyone everyone [TS]

  says I can't do that we'll just put a [TS]

  link to our website go here to get books [TS]

  and you tap there and it launches mobile [TS]

  zafar and you can buy books and Apple [TS]

  said no no we don't like that either no [TS]

  no going elsewhere and so now people [TS]

  just do merely doing integration with [TS]

  Dropbox using their SDK or whatever [TS]

  apparently is some standard part of the [TS]

  SDK that eventually leads you to a [TS]

  screen on the Dropbox website which [TS]

  could potentially optionally take some [TS]

  money from you if you wanted to pay the [TS]

  money for you know a non free Dropbox [TS]

  account and Apple's putting the hammer [TS]

  down those saying no no no you can do [TS]

  that so Gruber talked a lot about how he [TS]

  doesn't think this is a particular [TS]

  attack on Dropbox and I agree it's not [TS]

  some sort of particular Vendetta because [TS]

  apples trying to move into the cloud [TS]

  storage space or anything it's just a [TS]

  natural extension of their existing [TS]

  policy on things but the place where I [TS]

  part ways with what Gruber was [TS]

  suggesting and I think you might agree [TS]

  with me a little bit more on this when [TS]

  you're talking about it seemed like you [TS]

  were more in my side is it's not about [TS]

  the 30% cut it's not like Oh apples got [TS]

  to get there 30% cut the Apple doesn't [TS]

  make money off 30% cut of sales like [TS]

  that's just enough to keep the lights on [TS]

  for the business Apple makes all their [TS]

  money are selling hardware the amount of [TS]

  money they make off software and other [TS]

  services is negligible compared to the [TS]

  rest of their money I think people ought [TS]

  to think about that anything relating to [TS]

  iTunes or any of that as just break even [TS]

  for [TS]

  well if they and I think that's how [TS]

  Apple thinks of it is either slightly [TS]

  losing money or break even if they do a [TS]

  little bit better then yeah we did a [TS]

  little bit better but for them it's it's [TS]

  all part of selling hardware this is a [TS]

  vehicle to selling hardware yeah and [TS]

  like it doesn't mean they don't care [TS]

  about it where Apple makes its money [TS]

  doesn't mean like oh that's their entire [TS]

  focus and they don't care about software [TS]

  that they care about everything but like [TS]

  the place you know the place where the [TS]

  money comes from isn't the thing they [TS]

  concentrate on that's one of the great [TS]

  things about Apple is like just because [TS]

  they make all their money from power it [TS]

  doesn't mean I will then forget the [TS]

  software screw that we don't care about [TS]

  the software we don't care about [TS]

  services they see it all as a piece and [TS]

  where the money happens to come from is [TS]

  just kind of like well that's that's [TS]

  where we can happen to make money uh and [TS]

  so they're not optimizing their entire [TS]

  company just in the part they're making [TS]

  money for but it's clear that there's [TS]

  not some sort of strategy like oh geez [TS]

  the future of the company depends on [TS]

  getting those 30% cuts because they've [TS]

  clearly seen with the way car things [TS]

  currently are now the big money they [TS]

  their income comes from what they get [TS]

  the profits they get on hardware and [TS]

  they need to do all this other stuff too [TS]

  now if that shifted someday if suddenly [TS]

  like their Hardware margins disappeared [TS]

  and the software volumes drastically [TS]

  increase and suddenly they're making the [TS]

  vast majority of the money from this 30% [TS]

  cut then that argument be true like oh [TS]

  they had needs a 3% cut but at this [TS]

  point it's not about getting the 30% cut [TS]

  of everything because getting or not [TS]

  getting a 30% cut of like ebooks sales [TS]

  and stuff it's not going to make or [TS]

  break their business they could double [TS]

  their software revenues it would still [TS]

  be totally dwarfed by the iPhone alone [TS]

  right it's just not the way their [TS]

  business is structured now and I don't [TS]

  think they're trying to shift their [TS]

  business so that we feel uncomfortable [TS]

  making all this hard this profit or hard [TS]

  would we rather make the profit on [TS]

  softwares or our services if anything I [TS]

  think it's the other way I think Apple [TS]

  is the master of its own destiny much [TS]

  more in the hardware market than they [TS]

  are and trying to get a cut of other [TS]

  people's sales because that is a much [TS]

  more tenuous business where you don't [TS]

  have control over all the factors you [TS]

  have to rely on people submitting [TS]

  applications to you and selling to the [TS]

  store and so on Laura I'm by the way one [TS]

  side tangent there that ruber was trying [TS]

  to express how a 30% cut was not tenable [TS]

  for people who are selling ebooks so [TS]

  Amazon can't sell ebooks through the iOS [TS]

  like you know in-app purchase thing [TS]

  because doesn't work financially you [TS]

  tried to give an example and couldn't [TS]

  come up with one [TS]

  I should have researched this better but [TS]

  just listening to the podcast back when [TS]

  I was in the e-book business way back [TS]

  when in 2000 I can give you an example [TS]

  from then which shows how [TS]

  couldn't have done a 30% cut and that [TS]

  was because and I don't know people can [TS]

  tell me in various emails which one of [TS]

  these things I'm I don't know if this is [TS]

  the agency model or not the agency model [TS]

  or whatever I'm just going to tell you [TS]

  how things were in 2002 and why at that [TS]

  time this this 30 percent cut would not [TS]

  have worked and I assume the current [TS]

  situation is if not identical then [TS]

  similar it just you know fine [TS]

  financially speaking the publishers [TS]

  would give us e books and we would sell [TS]

  them and when we sold one we would owe [TS]

  them a percentage of the list price for [TS]

  that ebook so let's say the list price [TS]

  is $10 to make it simple right and they [TS]

  needed like you know a 30% it's this one [TS]

  these aren't real numbers but a 30 [TS]

  percent royalty right so when we sold [TS]

  that book we needed to give them $3 [TS]

  right but nobody would sell the books [TS]

  for list price everyone had the same [TS]

  book and everyone wanted to sell this [TS]

  cheap as possible so what's the cheapest [TS]

  you can possibly sell that book for you [TS]

  can sell that book for three dollars and [TS]

  one cent give the three dollars for the [TS]

  publisher and make one cent back and [TS]

  because of competition among booksellers [TS]

  the prices really drove themselves down [TS]

  so yeah the list price may have been ten [TS]

  dollars but everyone selling the books [TS]

  like three dollars and fifty cents three [TS]

  dollars and 99 cents because they know [TS]

  they owe the publisher three dollars no [TS]

  matter what and it's like well how much [TS]

  profit can I eat out of that by driving [TS]

  my prices down because you drive your [TS]

  prices down you get more customers to [TS]

  come to you in that model when [TS]

  everyone's sign when you owe the [TS]

  publisher three dollars and everyone's [TS]

  selling the books for like three dollars [TS]

  and 50 cents or whatever there's no way [TS]

  you can give another three dollars to [TS]

  Apple right because then you have to [TS]

  raise your price to six dollars and one [TS]

  cent to make one sense of profit and [TS]

  you'd be out of business you know you [TS]

  would lose the people who are continuing [TS]

  to sell it for three dollars and fifty [TS]

  cents it would just be so much cheaper [TS]

  so that's an example not maybe that's [TS]

  not the way it is now but that's one [TS]

  example of how there just isn't a number [TS]

  three another 30% to go to anybody in [TS]

  these cases I think now I'm going to [TS]

  start talking out of my butt I think the [TS]

  problem with Amazon was that Amazon was [TS]

  selling books below cost and losing [TS]

  money in every sale thus driving down [TS]

  the perceived value of e-books and [TS]

  making it more difficult for publishers [TS]

  to sell their ebooks at higher prices to [TS]

  other vendors and they didn't like that [TS]

  and so I think the model they have now [TS]

  is where [TS]

  the publishers are forcing the sellers [TS]

  to sell it at a certain amount not just [TS]

  asking for a particular percentage but I [TS]

  think either of those models due to [TS]

  competition makes situation where [TS]

  there's just not another 30% cut for [TS]

  another middleman because Amazon is a [TS]

  reseller and they want to cut up with [TS]

  the sales and the publisher wants their [TS]

  piece and if Apple wants another piece [TS]

  is just it's not it's untenable the [TS]

  prices go up too high right so I don't [TS]

  know if there's any better than grouper [TS]

  there but I do know that my example I [TS]

  gave about the when I was in eBook [TS]

  industry was accurate in 2002 and is a [TS]

  is one example of how there might not be [TS]

  enough room for another person to cut [TS]

  but I think you know the dis not [TS]

  allowing you to go someplace else to pay [TS]

  money even in like the silly example [TS]

  where it's like so indirect where you [TS]

  really you know you just it's just a [TS]

  Dropbox integration map that happens to [TS]

  lead you to get a Dropbox account that [TS]

  happens to possibly ask you for money [TS]

  and how ridiculous it is that they're [TS]

  stopping that it's not about Apple [TS]

  wanting a piece of that money because I [TS]

  think in many of these cases especially [TS]

  in ebooks Apple knows it's never gonna [TS]

  see a cut of that like it's not dumb it [TS]

  didn't like say AHA now we're gonna get [TS]

  30% cut of all ebooks and was all sad [TS]

  when nobody started selling ebooks [TS]

  through in-app purchase they know they [TS]

  know the realities of the business [TS]

  better than any way they have their own [TS]

  book store [TS]

  yeah Apple can sell them in there [TS]

  because they don't know themselves you [TS]

  know an extra 30% right that's a [TS]

  competitive advantage and that's the [TS]

  Apple strategy tax thing that I talked [TS]

  about a while ago but they knew they [TS]

  weren't going to get that 30 percent cut [TS]

  so enforcing this rule is not a way for [TS]

  them to we need to turn the screw so we [TS]

  can get some of that money all you're [TS]

  doing is driving those people out and [TS]

  many people say you're making the [TS]

  experience worse because it wouldn't it [TS]

  be better if on an iOS device inside the [TS]

  Kindle app you could buy books wouldn't [TS]

  that be better for everybody what is [TS]

  Apple's problem isn't apples making its [TS]

  user experience but like oh it's all [TS]

  about the user experience we want it to [TS]

  be nice well isn't it aren't you making [TS]

  crap your apps why can't I buy the books [TS]

  inside my Kindle app it's it seems like [TS]

  it's anti user and you know and that's [TS]

  why people start thinking well we know [TS]

  it's not good for the users because [TS]

  obviously we'd all like to buy our [TS]

  ebooks inside the Kindle app so what is [TS]

  Apple's motivation oh they must be [TS]

  greedy they want a 30% cut and they're [TS]

  not letting you sell it or they want [TS]

  they want to provide an advantage to [TS]

  their book store which can sell inside [TS]

  the app I don't even know the iBooks app [TS]

  does that but they certainly good [TS]

  because they make the rules right and [TS]

  they don't know themselves an extra 30% [TS]

  I think though that it actually is [TS]

  perhaps a misguided but I think Apple [TS]

  actual motivation for this rule set is [TS]

  is user focused and what they want is [TS]

  they want when you launch an app not a [TS]

  website but when you launch an app by [TS]

  tapping an icon on the home screen it's [TS]

  not one of those little website things [TS]

  Apple and then you pay money for [TS]

  anything inside that application or from [TS]

  that application Apple wants to control [TS]

  that experience and the reason they want [TS]

  to is not so they can make money from [TS]

  everybody or not so they can provide [TS]

  advantage for the iBook store but it's [TS]

  so everyone who uses an iOS device knows [TS]

  what to expect and feels comfortable [TS]

  spending money inside applications and [TS]

  the lack of fear like not being afraid [TS]

  to spend stuff is good for everyone [TS]

  selling anything on the platform and [TS]

  what they're trying to event is like [TS]

  they have this Populi popular platform [TS]

  like Hegelians of applications are being [TS]

  sold who wouldn't want to be in on that [TS]

  they're trying to prevent their gigantic [TS]

  platform with tons of users and tons of [TS]

  people from being hijacked by people who [TS]

  basically just want to spam you with [TS]

  waste is to make money make money fast [TS]

  like in this in their nightmare scenario [TS]

  every single app you buy in the App [TS]

  Store [TS]

  you can't tap on anything without being [TS]

  sent somewhere to put money and it's not [TS]

  using Apple's payment frameworks like [TS]

  every time I launch an app someone's [TS]

  asking me for money and I don't know who [TS]

  these people are and I don't know what [TS]

  websites are sending me to and I don't [TS]

  want to spend money in any apps because [TS]

  I know that every single time I launch [TS]

  an application I like collecting money [TS]

  give me money here give me money there [TS]

  and it's like I under my credit card [TS]

  here enter my credit card there yeah [TS]

  hook this up to PayPal I don't know what [TS]

  I'm doing anymore I'm so terrified that [TS]

  I don't want to spend money in any [TS]

  application this I think is what Apple [TS]

  is trying to prevent they do not want is [TS]

  that that's a great way to make money if [TS]

  you know you have a massive platform [TS]

  with tons of users everyone wants to say [TS]

  launch my application you know how it [TS]

  says like the worst the example they [TS]

  have now is the ones you launch where [TS]

  it's like give me a five star rating [TS]

  that's annoying as hell but at least [TS]

  they're not asking for money it turns [TS]

  people off of rating things and makes [TS]

  people hate the application and stuff [TS]

  but at least they're not asking for [TS]

  money if they open this door every [TS]

  application we spouting some money [TS]

  begging thing that would send you off to [TS]

  their own website scammy or not that [TS]

  Apple can't control and the experience [TS]

  would be that people would be afraid to [TS]

  ever give any application money Apple [TS]

  wants you to never be a [TS]

  afraid to do an in-app purchase never be [TS]

  afraid to spend money they wanted you to [TS]

  be confident that it's going through the [TS]

  iTunes thing that you know that's how [TS]

  you buy apps that's how you buy music is [TS]

  how you buy movies is how you buy [TS]

  everything it you know it's your Apple [TS]

  ID there's only one way to do it it's a [TS]

  solid you know experience that they [TS]

  control that everyone's comfortable with [TS]

  and that I think it actually is good for [TS]

  everyone who's on the platform uh [TS]

  and it's you know that you don't want [TS]

  people to be afraid to spend money I [TS]

  think if if people left their own [TS]

  devices they would make everyone afraid [TS]

  to spell money and there would be this [TS]

  period where they would be this gold [TS]

  rush where they take money off from [TS]

  people like crazy and then everyone [TS]

  basically say always it's now accepted