88: Nobody Leaves Email


  oh that is a snarky comment about the [TS]

  show that i'm watching this is [TS]

  hypercritical weekly talk show [TS]

  ruminating on exactly what is wrong in [TS]

  the world of Apple and related [TS]

  technologies and businesses nothing is [TS]

  so perfect that it cannot be obliterated [TS]

  by my co-host and your friend John [TS]

  siracusa I'm Dan Benjamin today is [TS]

  Friday October fifth 2012 this is [TS]

  episode number 88 of our beloved [TS]

  hypercritical we have three sponsors [TS]

  that we would like to thank and tell you [TS]

  more about as a show continues Shopify [TS]

  calm shutterstock.com and of course [TS]

  squarespace.com I'm also like to thank [TS]

  our friends over cash fly also done come [TS]

  for sponsoring bandwidth for this entire [TS]

  month of October the best month of the [TS]

  year they're the fastest most reliable [TS]

  CDN in the business and if you're [TS]

  listening to me right now it means you [TS]

  are using cash fly because that's who [TS]

  delivers all of our content check them [TS]

  out cash fly calm and let them know you [TS]

  heard about them from us good morning [TS]

  John siracusa you'd mentioned right [TS]

  before we started that you have some [TS]

  kind of cold going I do I am under the [TS]

  weather today but I will soldier on you [TS]

  sounded like a little you know you sell [TS]

  like yourself but just maybe more [TS]

  gravely yeah a little extra foghorn [TS]

  right in the mix that's exactly what I [TS]

  was all right we're on a schedule today [TS]

  let's do it let's hit it we got it we [TS]

  got to get through different time today [TS]

  nobody and people who are downloading [TS]

  the show they don't they don't know they [TS]

  don't care yeah but starting early today [TS]

  because we gotta end early now i'm [TS]

  probably going to truncate some of the [TS]

  follow up just so we can get to the main [TS]

  topics okay the first bit follow up is a [TS]

  year-long follow up this is as most [TS]

  people know by now the anniversary of [TS]

  Steve Jobs is death last year the only [TS]

  note I want to do I make here is that we [TS]

  talked about this on episode 37 of [TS]

  hypercritical entitled a story of [TS]

  triumph it's five behind that TV / [TS]

  hypercritical that / 37 the link is also [TS]

  in the show notes so if you would like [TS]

  to hear some discussion of that topic i [TS]

  recommend you [TS]

  download that show I'm not going to talk [TS]

  about it again but it's sad and apple [TS]

  apple com has a little tribute today I [TS]

  didn't put it in the show notes because [TS]

  you know we will expire as soon as they [TS]

  pull down that tribute but if you're [TS]

  listening on Friday and I assume maybe [TS]

  saturday or sunday take a look at apple [TS]

  com I've got a neat little tribute video [TS]

  up there alright next item the last show [TS]

  we talked about the iphone 5 had some [TS]

  follow-up about the internals of the [TS]

  iphone 5 and one of them was about the [TS]

  thing that holds the Lightning connector [TS]

  inside and I had mentioned that uh two [TS]

  shows ago that I thought the little [TS]

  dents inside the Lightning connector [TS]

  were perhaps gripped by spring-loaded [TS]

  ball bearings that the balls would like [TS]

  push into those little dents and hold [TS]

  the thing in and that would be really [TS]

  neat but right in the ifixit teardown it [TS]

  showed that it was just like a little [TS]

  metal clip we're just kind of less [TS]

  exciting in a little bit more lame and I [TS]

  was corrected by a non mouse who I guess [TS]

  is anonymous but also a mouse telling me [TS]

  that those little balls those [TS]

  theoretical balls that I was imagining [TS]

  that would be on Springs and they would [TS]

  push into those little dents those are [TS]

  just called metal balls an actual ball [TS]

  bearing is the balls in with the two [TS]

  metal rings that are called races I [TS]

  think so I everyone I mean I think I [TS]

  knew this in the back of my mind but I [TS]

  think this is total idiot correction [TS]

  this is something we should all strive [TS]

  to be correct about ball bearings are [TS]

  not little metal balls they're just [TS]

  called metal balls I guess they don't [TS]

  have a special name it's only a ball [TS]

  bearing if it has those noble arranged [TS]

  in a particular way with metal rings [TS]

  around them sliding around really yes I [TS]

  believe I knew that back from my remote [TS]

  control car days because they use ball [TS]

  bearings actual ball bearings not just [TS]

  little metal balls so thank you a non [TS]

  mouse for that correction also in the [TS]

  iphone 5 topic last week we were [TS]

  pondering the new iphone 5 wall wart [TS]

  charger thing and since you actually [TS]

  have an iphone 5 you said that's not [TS]

  what my iphone 5 came with yours came [TS]

  with the much smaller like a vertical [TS]

  thing with the USB plug on the back and [TS]

  many listeners send us email to solve [TS]

  this mystery that we should have thought [TS]

  of this ourselves [TS]

  course we didn't because we're so [TS]

  us-centric apparently in other countries [TS]

  that have 240 volt power yeah they get [TS]

  the big one yeah they get the big fat [TS]

  ones we get the the rinky dink ones now [TS]

  did it to the big fat ones charge faster [TS]

  have you heard this I don't know like I [TS]

  know like you said like you said on the [TS]

  show like the ipad comes with the fat [TS]

  one I've got an ipad 3 it came with that [TS]

  little fat one and i do know that the [TS]

  ipad 3 charges faster from that little [TS]

  fat thing that it does if you plug it [TS]

  into a computer wife soon I assume it's [TS]

  this the same charging speed if you know [TS]

  if you plug it into the wall regardless [TS]

  of what size the adapter is but I don't [TS]

  know so there you have it u.s. and the [TS]

  rest of the world did we did we already [TS]

  clear up what was inside the little [TS]

  prongs that were inside of the little [TS]

  rinky-dink one yeah well you sent you [TS]

  sent me a picture of yours and says [TS]

  here's my small one came with the iphone [TS]

  5 and the place where the USB plug goes [TS]

  in is still surrounded by metal right [TS]

  not surrounded by plastic wood metal [TS]

  contact right yeah and I mean that makes [TS]

  sense because they want them to be small [TS]

  they want to be light and yeah maybe [TS]

  they'll revise that smaller one and I [TS]

  actually I actually think that the [TS]

  smaller one assuming that it charges at [TS]

  the same rate I think the smaller one is [TS]

  far superior to the the big fat one and [TS]

  I wish that the ipad 3 would charge with [TS]

  this moment oh yeah apple is always [TS]

  making these wall wart smaller smaller [TS]

  do you remember that I think the biggest [TS]

  one they ever made and in this shape [TS]

  like the little rounded corner [TS]

  rectangles the one for like that maybe [TS]

  was the original macbook pro intel it [TS]

  was just gigantic was like 85 watt or [TS]

  something it's huge and now you know [TS]

  that for the iphone they've gotten them [TS]

  down to being barely bigger than just a [TS]

  plug would be you know barely bigger [TS]

  than just a two prong plug with little [TS]

  thing for you to grab so apples making [TS]

  good progress in that area and all other [TS]

  things being equal you but you'd want [TS]

  the smaller one right why not yeah i [TS]

  feel bad for our our friends overseas [TS]

  they they suffer make many indignities [TS]

  did you know some of them don't even [TS]

  speak English that's what I heard how do [TS]

  they use the I'd have fun if they don't [TS]

  speak English I mean who's gonna talk to [TS]

  him I don't know how they talk to each [TS]

  other or though they talk to each other [TS]

  yeah now that's cute all right at the [TS]

  next bit is about what you get when [TS]

  you go into an apple store and they [TS]

  replace something for you so we talked [TS]

  about this two shows ago and then a [TS]

  couple of anonymous current and former [TS]

  apple geniuses wrote in to clarify and I [TS]

  read some of the clarifications and was [TS]

  a little bit confused by how they seem [TS]

  to contradict our first theories and so [TS]

  this week tons and tons of people former [TS]

  apple geniuses current apple geniuses [TS]

  apple authorized dealers current and [TS]

  former just tremendous amount of [TS]

  feedback i kept looking for the one [TS]

  golden piece of feedback that would give [TS]

  me like a bulleted list of exactly what [TS]

  goes on i try to try to kind of merge [TS]

  them all together but anyway here's [TS]

  here's what I've got this is not [TS]

  attributed to any person I think almost [TS]

  everybody who wrote in wanted to be [TS]

  anonymous anyway so this is a melange of [TS]

  feedback and my attempt to put this [TS]

  thing to bed maybe it's a foolish [TS]

  attempt but here we go all right I'm [TS]

  this I'm just going to read these things [TS]

  off it Apple will attempt to perform [TS]

  hardware repairs on Macs and replace [TS]

  them with new product if unable to write [TS]

  apple were rarely attempt to perform [TS]

  hardware repairs on mobile devices and [TS]

  accessories and will replace them with [TS]

  refurbished products when unable to one [TS]

  unable to repair them defective mobile [TS]

  devices are sent back to a central [TS]

  repair facility where the devices are [TS]

  refurbished and sent back to Apple [TS]

  stores to be used as a replacement [TS]

  devices so you got that like if you come [TS]

  in with a mobile device and there's [TS]

  something wrong with it and it can't be [TS]

  repaired in the store it's sent to be [TS]

  refurbished someplace else and then [TS]

  those refurbished ones are sent back to [TS]

  the Apple stores to be used as the [TS]

  replacement devices defective max that [TS]

  can't be repaired our return and [TS]

  returned by a customer and also sent [TS]

  back to the Central Depot these macs are [TS]

  refurbished but not sent back to the [TS]

  Apple stores all right so if you have a [TS]

  Mac they can't fix it as whatever they [TS]

  send it off to be refurbished depot [TS]

  doesn't send them back the Apple stores [TS]

  you cannot purchase used or refurbished [TS]

  products at apple retail stores so you [TS]

  know when we talk about refurbished [TS]

  macbook pros and stuff like that i can't [TS]

  buy them retail starts to have to be [TS]

  online refurbished macs ipads and ipods [TS]

  are only sold in apple's online store [TS]

  apple never never sells refurbished [TS]

  iphones anywhere all right they don't [TS]

  anywhere and that's that's this that's [TS]

  according to this melange your feedback [TS]

  here all right so when they say went for [TS]

  iPods [TS]

  iPads and iPhones and mobile devices any [TS]

  whole unit swap the part may be new or [TS]

  remanufactured and for Apple [TS]

  remanufactured means that every external [TS]

  part that can be seen or felt by the [TS]

  customer is actually brand-new as is the [TS]

  battery internal parts like speakers [TS]

  memory board stuff like that may be [TS]

  refurbished and reuse from a prior [TS]

  device so that's what when you go in and [TS]

  they give you a replacement iphone what [TS]

  you're getting is something that's been [TS]

  remanufactured or may be new but [TS]

  everything that you touch it is like new [TS]

  brand new never been touched by another [TS]

  person is just that the inside parts may [TS]

  be refurbished except for the battery [TS]

  which is always know which makes sense [TS]

  because batteries wear out you can't [TS]

  really remember refurbish those all [TS]

  right and another note here any unit [TS]

  that the apple store receives that has [TS]

  any liquid contact of any sort is [TS]

  completely recycled no parts from it or [TS]

  ever refurbished so as soon as liquid [TS]

  enters the pictures those parts will [TS]

  never go into another iphone so you're [TS]

  not going to get a remanufactured one [TS]

  like that there are circumstances where [TS]

  you would replace your mobile device and [TS]

  not end up with a remanufactured one for [TS]

  example if Apple hasn't started [TS]

  remanufacturing so if you go in with an [TS]

  iPhone you like get a defective one or [TS]

  you drop it or whatever and you i phone [TS]

  5 on me and you go back in you're going [TS]

  to get a brand new one because they [TS]

  haven't probably remanufactured on the [TS]

  iphone 5s left so you get you know just [TS]

  you know Polly new because they don't [TS]

  have any remanufactured ones if the [TS]

  customer is offered a crew CR you this [TS]

  stands for customer replacement unit [TS]

  this is where the geniuses decided that [TS]

  you've had far too many repairs on your [TS]

  machine in order to restore your faith [TS]

  and Apple he's decided to give you an [TS]

  entirely new unit from the shelf and [TS]

  replace it this can happen at any time [TS]

  in your warranty so this is dino just at [TS]

  the discretion of the Apple Genius if it [TS]

  looks like you're just going around in [TS]

  circles stuff like that they can just [TS]

  give you a new one customers never liked [TS]

  hearing that their phone has been [TS]

  remanufactured it's a difficult [TS]

  conversation that they ask I mean even [TS]

  if you can explain to them I imagine [TS]

  like okay well you know the batteries [TS]

  brand new or the outsides are brand new [TS]

  everything is remanufactured and we [TS]

  tested it and it's all fine they may be [TS]

  cranky about it right we were this is [TS]

  the Apple Store person we would often [TS]

  say that all the service parts were [TS]

  remanufacturers when in fact if a member [TS]

  of the genius team wanted their phone to [TS]

  be replaced we would always search [TS]

  through the piles to see if we could [TS]

  find one that had a serial number that [TS]

  we knew [TS]

  be a new phone so I guess if you're in [TS]

  the know if you're one of the geniuses [TS]

  when you want to get your thing replaced [TS]

  you can sort through which ones I [TS]

  remanufactured insides of which ones [TS]

  aren't now I don't know if that's a [TS]

  rational thing to do and if you have any [TS]

  better luck with the one with [TS]

  remanufactured insides at vs new but [TS]

  apparently there is a way for the people [TS]

  on the inside to know so let me let me [TS]

  ask you this let's say you let's say you [TS]

  you bring an iphone in as a problem [TS]

  let's say bought it the day before and [TS]

  it's it's a lemon it's got major [TS]

  problems you rollin you say like this [TS]

  the whole thing doesn't work and the [TS]

  genius men's a few minutes with it and [TS]

  says you know what you're right and [TS]

  since you just bought it we're gonna [TS]

  swap yeah this happens all the time yep [TS]

  you're saying just for total clarity [TS]

  here you're saying that that we might [TS]

  get a brand new phone or we might get a [TS]

  phone that is remanufactured right but [TS]

  the remanufactured means anything you [TS]

  would touch or feel is brand new and the [TS]

  insides might be old except for the [TS]

  battery which is also except for the [TS]

  battery now here's a question do and [TS]

  maybe this came out in in your feedback [TS]

  is there like a special pile of phones [TS]

  that should be used for replacement in [TS]

  other words do they have a special [TS]

  storehouse of this somewhere in the back [TS]

  that they go or they just grab a new the [TS]

  remanufactured phones like or anything [TS]

  like that that's you know that it sent [TS]

  off to be to the remanufacturing [TS]

  facility and those come back not [TS]

  necessarily assume to the same store but [TS]

  those come back and that's like here [TS]

  please use these as your replacement son [TS]

  hmm right so it's not you know and again [TS]

  it doesn't there because you may they [TS]

  may have none of that so then when they [TS]

  need to replace like if you drive home [TS]

  was bomb on the first day we're getting [TS]

  a brand new one because there were no [TS]

  remanufacturing remanufacturing takes [TS]

  time right and so and of course there's [TS]

  the the customer replacement unit thing [TS]

  so it's difficult to tell like many [TS]

  people said they always just say oh [TS]

  they're all remanufactured which is not [TS]

  necessarily true you may be getting a [TS]

  brand new one you may not but it's [TS]

  supposed to be you should make a [TS]

  difference you know what I mean like it [TS]

  it should look and feel brand new [TS]

  because the outsides definitely are [TS]

  brand new and so is the battery and it [TS]

  should work as well as a regular one in [TS]

  fact it's many people only the people [TS]

  sent feedback said that these [TS]

  remanufactured problems have a better [TS]

  chance of being good than a brand new [TS]

  one because only a small percentage of [TS]

  the iphones that come off the assembly [TS]

  line are like extensively tested you [TS]

  know and every possible and you just [TS]

  can't you just can't test [TS]

  five million um to the degree that you [TS]

  can retest these Mary manufactured [TS]

  phones so you know you can get a dead on [TS]

  arrival thing whereas the chances are [TS]

  very low that our remanufactured phones [TS]

  going to be dead on arrival because it [TS]

  had all its insides had were tested to [TS]

  death to see if they could be used as [TS]

  remanufactured parts power adapters [TS]

  batteries headphones and cetera are [TS]

  always brand new period no exceptions I [TS]

  guess they're just too small and cheap [TS]

  like it's not worth it three manufacture [TS]

  them computer boards is a mixed bag of [TS]

  new memory furbished and you know all [TS]

  them are tested and so on and so forth [TS]

  and all parts are warrantied the [TS]

  remainder of your applecare warranty or [TS]

  90 days whichever is longer so there you [TS]

  have it I hope we have put this issue to [TS]

  bed entirely it is a complicated process [TS]

  and by the way I'm sure these policies [TS]

  change and I'm sure all these policies [TS]

  are subject to the discretion of the [TS]

  store manager or whatever like you know [TS]

  you can always make exceptions so I [TS]

  actually feel a little bit better about [TS]

  you know if my phone was bad and I got a [TS]

  remanufactured when I wouldn't feel that [TS]

  bad about it because really what you [TS]

  care about is like the outside looks [TS]

  nice and everything and certainly the [TS]

  battery is new but like the [TS]

  remanufactured insides probably don't [TS]

  bother me that much yeah I know that I [TS]

  know you and I know that they bother you [TS]

  a lot I'm not like because I'm on the [TS]

  same like I want something that's going [TS]

  to be reliable and like how much human [TS]

  attention has been paid to the insides [TS]

  of a brand new iphone to make sure it's [TS]

  a hundred percent reliable versus a [TS]

  remanufactured wonder you're actually [TS]

  saying that you feel that maybe that [TS]

  remanufactured ones are better yeah well [TS]

  if you know again if there's no such a [TS]

  design flaw in the products already [TS]

  obscure thing that like at least at [TS]

  least I know a human has totally like [TS]

  I'm sure people were gonna feedback said [TS]

  oh well you know in the assembly line [TS]

  every component is tested and so on so [TS]

  forth it just seems to me that you don't [TS]

  have enough time to dedicate the kind of [TS]

  human attention to testing the phones [TS]

  that come off the assembly line as [TS]

  compared the time you have dedicates [TS]

  remanufactured phones I don't know I [TS]

  haven't had a problem with any of my iOS [TS]

  devices not even a bad home button [TS]

  although the home button on my current i [TS]

  buy that is a little wonky but not [TS]

  enough for me to go to replace it and [TS]

  it's out of warranty anyway so so there [TS]

  you have it and I still haven't brought [TS]

  my thunderbolt spray display back in [TS]

  can we do our first sponsor so good [TS]

  times yeah you go cough or whatever [TS]

  you're gonna you don't sound as bad like [TS]

  when you first started you sounded awful [TS]

  I'm muting all I cough oh okay our first [TS]

  sponsor today is squarespace.com [TS]

  everything you need to make an amazing [TS]

  website fully hosted completely managed [TS]

  doesn't matter what kind of sight you're [TS]

  going to make I've told you about [TS]

  features a lot so today I'm not going to [TS]

  tell you about their features well maybe [TS]

  i'll mention it it's like drag and drop [TS]

  stuff you don't need to know CSS or HTML [TS]

  or if you do you can become a developer [TS]

  and you can SFTP or use get to tweak and [TS]

  modify and customize the templates or [TS]

  build your own but that's not what i'm [TS]

  going to tell you about the reason why [TS]

  we use square space in the reason why [TS]

  you might want to use Squarespace is it [TS]

  it's basically foolproof because I would [TS]

  rather spend my time doing shows and [TS]

  building this business then building [TS]

  software to do something that is a [TS]

  solved problem and they've done a really [TS]

  really good job at solving this problem [TS]

  and they're gonna save you a lot of time [TS]

  you need to worry about scaling you [TS]

  don't need to worry about downtime you [TS]

  don't need to worry about design even [TS]

  and if you're building something for a [TS]

  customer or client that you have you [TS]

  want to deploy it you want to make sure [TS]

  they're not going to screw it up that's [TS]

  what customers sometimes do you can give [TS]

  this to them and you can put it in front [TS]

  of them and you know that they will not [TS]

  mess things up because they can't really [TS]

  great software really great company [TS]

  behind it and they've been a great [TS]

  support to us here love it if you would [TS]

  go and check them out but you get what [TS]

  you pay for i say that all the time i [TS]

  like to understand completely my [TS]

  relationship with a company i don't i [TS]

  don't think things should be free if [TS]

  they're really good and they're [TS]

  Squarespace is not free i mean it's free [TS]

  to start out and try but it's 10 bucks a [TS]

  month for a standard playing twenty [TS]

  bucks for the unlimited plan if you sign [TS]

  up for a year you get twenty percent off [TS]

  you sign up for two years to get [TS]

  twenty-five percent off and in either [TS]

  case you get a free domain name with it [TS]

  and if you use my code you're going to [TS]

  get an additional ten percent off [TS]

  whether you do the month-to-month thing [TS]

  or not code is dan sent me ten because [TS]

  there's october tenth month dan sent me [TS]

  ten you can go to squarespace com / 5 by [TS]

  5 and even just going there will support [TS]

  the show that's all you have to do is to [TS]

  visit that URL supports the show but [TS]

  consider signing a boy in there [TS]

  squarespace com such five by five [TS]

  what's next shot you know I think I will [TS]

  do one more follow-up by them and then [TS]

  we'll be then we'll move on okay could [TS]

  we do this one quickly this is about the [TS]

  ipod touch wrist strap we talked about [TS]

  one last show why does it have a wrist [TS]

  strap why doesn't the phone never wrist [TS]

  strap is it because kids used ipod touch [TS]

  and kids drop it more will they will the [TS]

  strap because it can you imagine the [TS]

  strap ever coming to the phone what [TS]

  people use it all sorts of questions [TS]

  like that and so here the lots of [TS]

  theories we got the number one piece of [TS]

  feedback and i guess we didn't mention [TS]

  this on the show is that the idea that [TS]

  the wrist strap is on the ipod touch [TS]

  because cameras typically have wrist [TS]

  straps and it's emphasizing the improved [TS]

  camera on the ipod touch are emphasizing [TS]

  it's used as a camera and so here are a [TS]

  couple of variations in that theory Sam [TS]

  I wrote in to say that the camera theory [TS]

  is corroborated by the fact that the [TS]

  ipod touch page on the apple website [TS]

  shows the strap only in the picture [TS]

  promoting the improved camera so if you [TS]

  go to the ipod touch page just like a [TS]

  new taller screen and faster cpu and [TS]

  blah blah in a little section i say [TS]

  better camera that's the only one that [TS]

  shows it with the strap and it shows [TS]

  that you know horizontal like a [TS]

  point-and-shoot camera be with the strap [TS]

  Oh insane may also many people send us [TS]

  feedback but Sam I did as well that we I [TS]

  said the wrong price for the ipod touch [TS]

  on the show it's not two hundred and [TS]

  fifty dollars it's actually 299 but [TS]

  that's only because only 32 and 64 [TS]

  gigabyte models are available and so [TS]

  those are the same prices they always [TS]

  worth is just no more 16 gig model so [TS]

  it's still I mean the bottom line is [TS]

  still to get the good quote unquote the [TS]

  good new ipod touch the starting price [TS]

  is higher than it was before but it's [TS]

  actually three hundred not 250 but those [TS]

  aren't in kudos aren't you know like [TS]

  those aren't technically increases in [TS]

  prices because they're the same as the [TS]

  32 and 64 although i'm still fairly [TS]

  cranky about the memory sizes of these [TS]

  ipods like how many years can you just [TS]

  keep going with 16 32 and 64 and just [TS]

  say oh like that's you know your Flash [TS]

  RAM never gets cheaper mmm isn't that [TS]

  curious right like the 16 I'm glad to [TS]

  get rid of the eights I feel like the 16 [TS]

  should all be gone and there should be a [TS]

  128 there you know they just need to [TS]

  shift them up a year maybe they don't [TS]

  double them a year maybe they stay the [TS]

  same for two years and crank up but [TS]

  Apple is notoriously bad about [TS]

  that their previous really bad habit was [TS]

  putting a ridiculously low amount of [TS]

  stock ramener max which always boggled [TS]

  my mind because I know their margins are [TS]

  big on the RAM especially the for the [TS]

  crazy prices they charge and they make [TS]

  up all their money in that you know but [TS]

  it like it makes you it makes your own [TS]

  product look worse it makes your [TS]

  operating system look worse it makes [TS]

  your apps look worse to have a ram star [TS]

  Mac like when they were coming with like [TS]

  now 22 gigs of RAM it's painful like [TS]

  even know someone it's like hey I got a [TS]

  new mac and you help me come set it up [TS]

  and you go to their house and you're [TS]

  like oh god you have two gigs and RAM [TS]

  and so all these cool things that I wish [TS]

  I could show you you're gonna be [TS]

  grinding or crappy 5400 RPM like this is [TS]

  old technology but you're gonna be [TS]

  grinding here 5400 rpm laptop drive and [TS]

  everything's gonna be really slow and [TS]

  you're gonna be disappointed and boy [TS]

  this machine would really fly if it had [TS]

  four or eight gigs of ram and replace [TS]

  those numbers with whatever the modern [TS]

  equivalents are Apple used to be [TS]

  terrible about ran they're getting a [TS]

  little bit better these days and what's [TS]

  this what do you think the thinking was [TS]

  behind that John why why have such small [TS]

  allotment of RAM music is that I think a [TS]

  lot of the margin would be in the RAM [TS]

  because you'd be like uh you know anyone [TS]

  who knows anything would be like oh no [TS]

  I'm not buying the stock Ram I'm always [TS]

  gonna add more and if you're lazy to [TS]

  sell I'll have apple add more and they [TS]

  would charge you crazy markup on me [TS]

  additional RAM and you know even nerds [TS]

  are susceptibles that like I would [TS]

  always buy my own third-party ran but [TS]

  sometimes like I'm just doubling it from [TS]

  four to eight on my wife's laptop i'll [TS]

  just order from apple i know i'm losing [TS]

  like 50 bucks but just you know you just [TS]

  you just you know want to do it like all [TS]

  my mac pros i always buy with the [TS]

  minimal not a ram in the by third-party [TS]

  Rambis it was crazy to buy it you know [TS]

  Apple daram was tremendously expensive [TS]

  and they fully buffered dims that are in [TS]

  these mac pros were you know incredibly [TS]

  expensive to begin with and then apples [TS]

  were twice that price and so that really [TS]

  would start to add up but sometimes you [TS]

  just get lazy and I think Apple knows [TS]

  that I think Apple knows that people are [TS]

  going to get talked out of the bargain [TS]

  basement bottom line get the one with a [TS]

  little more ram but I just I still see a [TS]

  lot of people with the bargain-basement [TS]

  one that's not this is not a good [TS]

  machine and make this makes apple look [TS]

  bad they're making themselves look bad [TS]

  so I'm glad to see them crank that up a [TS]

  little bit I think they have the same [TS]

  exact problem with iOS devices that n [TS]

  eight gig device just makes apple look [TS]

  bad because you put like three apps on [TS]

  there with the stupid retina graphics [TS]

  now your host right and even a 16 it's [TS]

  like [TS]

  I got a season of you know my favorite [TS]

  TV show and nothing else yeah and then [TS]

  feel then it's not so easy to manage [TS]

  storage on iOS devices we all know this [TS]

  like even experts have like I have how [TS]

  do i free up some space it's not like [TS]

  you you know that they try to keep you [TS]

  from hosing yourself we just can't [TS]

  randomly delete stuff I guess you can [TS]

  delete apps but it's like well go to the [TS]

  storage management which no one knows [TS]

  where that is and see which apps taking [TS]

  up more room and people might think oh [TS]

  my god this this application is huge [TS]

  it's not the applications just all the [TS]

  files associated with that application [TS]

  are lumped into that application if you [TS]

  just delete the files but maybe there's [TS]

  no UI to do that you have to use itunes [TS]

  and it's it's a problem so i think it [TS]

  behooves Apple to crank up that flash [TS]

  memory a little bit faster than they are [TS]

  all right I Jim lipsy says that Apple [TS]

  didn't add the wrist strap as a feature [TS]

  of the ipod touch they added an [TS]

  accessory mount point and included a [TS]

  demo of what you can do with that [TS]

  accessory not point and he likens it to [TS]

  the Kensington security slot like you [TS]

  know what the he's saying the feature is [TS]

  not the strap the feature is the little [TS]

  bump out thing and hey you know that you [TS]

  could do whatever you want with that an [TS]

  apple says for example you can use a [TS]

  strap I think that's interesting to see [TS]

  if other you know third party accessory [TS]

  manufacturers start releasing all sorts [TS]

  of other things you can attach to that [TS]

  that thing I'm not sure quite how sturdy [TS]

  that is I don't know if it's Kensington [TS]

  security slots derby but someday I'll [TS]

  see 1 i'll check it out barbour tada [TS]

  tada says in Japan it's very common for [TS]

  ladies to have multiple little charms [TS]

  attached to their phone by the loop for [TS]

  the wrist strap right so there you go [TS]

  maybe that was partially influenced by [TS]

  that the idea of what you want to attach [TS]

  dangly things to it and by the way I'm [TS]

  not a dangly key person and it seems to [TS]

  me I don't want to be sexist here but it [TS]

  seems to me that if you were to look at [TS]

  the key ring or keychain of all the [TS]

  males in the United States and all the [TS]

  females there would be more dangly [TS]

  things on the females key chains on [TS]

  averages yeah absolutely absolutely [TS]

  right and my producer how do you shaking [TS]

  your head yes and and it's it's true her [TS]

  keychain is like 20 30 feet long with [TS]

  things looped on and she doesn't even [TS]

  have a bad one if I mind is like the [TS]

  minimum i have like one ring and the [TS]

  idea that i have to have like my office [TS]

  keys i even have a separate ring for [TS]

  those because i don't want to schlep [TS]

  that around me [TS]

  need it yeah like what's your key ring [TS]

  look like John I love to see that I have [TS]

  a single I have a good key ring story [TS]

  but I'll savor for the after dark okay [TS]

  but I just have a single metal ring with [TS]

  the only the keys that I need on it [TS]

  there are no accessories there are no [TS]

  additional things it's as small as I [TS]

  could possibly make it even that's too [TS]

  you know that's too much I bet you get a [TS]

  george costanza wallet don't you little [TS]

  remote door opener thing for your car [TS]

  those those are huge I don't like that [TS]

  you've got a george costanza wallet [TS]

  though five bucks says I do not know how [TS]

  about you do I keep I keep it pretty [TS]

  tight that will sit I'll be the judge of [TS]

  that all right and finally Tom in some [TS]

  says it doesn't matter which devices get [TS]

  dropped the most what matters is what [TS]

  the purchaser thinks will be dropped the [TS]

  most adults buying themselves iPhones [TS]

  probably think themselves competent and [TS]

  safe but when buying touches for kids [TS]

  maybe they want to strap so it's a sales [TS]

  time feature that's another interesting [TS]

  angle on it doesn't matter what gets [TS]

  dropped more because I was we were [TS]

  pondering that last show do ipod touches [TS]

  get dropped more like Apple would know [TS]

  based on like their repair rates maybe [TS]

  they could say percentage of iOS devices [TS]

  that come back with damage from dropping [TS]

  and maybe the ipod touch is way higher [TS]

  than the iphone but he's saying it [TS]

  doesn't matter what actually gets [TS]

  dropped all it matters is what people [TS]

  think we'll get dropped more so if [TS]

  you're going to buy your kid knight pod [TS]

  touch the strap is a sales feature to [TS]

  say oh don't worry it comes to the strap [TS]

  whether the kid will ever use the strap [TS]

  or whatever it's it's to get you over [TS]

  the hump and buy the thing so i thought [TS]

  that was an interesting angle I think [TS]

  it's all we have on straps time to get [TS]

  to today's topic we're doing pretty well [TS]

  I think so far they are doing good [TS]

  today's topic is saved over from last [TS]

  week I want to talk about app net and [TS]

  saved over from many many weeks ago I [TS]

  want to talk about 10 20 that was in my [TS]

  notes friend remember how long ago but [TS]

  it's just I've just been dragging it [TS]

  along and now finally the time is right [TS]

  to talk about these two things again we [TS]

  talked about apt than that on past shows [TS]

  about their funding model about the [TS]

  Kickstarter like project we didn't [TS]

  actually use Kickstarter about how I [TS]

  funded it but had my doubts about it all [TS]

  sorts of stuff like that the reason it [TS]

  comes up again or came up again last [TS]

  week is because app.net started [TS]

  something called the app that net [TS]

  developer incentive program the link is [TS]

  in the show notes this is a [TS]

  system whereby app.net disperses money [TS]

  to developers of app net clients and so [TS]

  for this first thing that they're going [TS]

  to be dispersing at least twenty [TS]

  thousand dollars per month to eligible [TS]

  app that net developers and it starts on [TS]

  october first so that was a couple days [TS]

  ago and here's the interesting parts the [TS]

  the dollar amount will be allocated to [TS]

  participating developers based on their [TS]

  scores in relation to the total score [TS]

  among participating developers so [TS]

  basically if you are a user of the [TS]

  app.net service you know and you paid [TS]

  some money to be user of the app that [TS]

  service you have like a little slider [TS]

  type thing as it shows all hero the apps [TS]

  you used for this month the client apps [TS]

  are at the net that you use adjust these [TS]

  sliders based on how valuable you think [TS]

  they are to you so it's not based on [TS]

  like how much you use them whatever you [TS]

  just have sliders in sight you know [TS]

  application number one that was the most [TS]

  valuable to me i put the slider all the [TS]

  way to the right application number to [TS]

  maybe do it halfway or whatever it i [TS]

  don't think they have to add up to some [TS]

  total it just like adjust the sliders [TS]

  based on how valuable they think they [TS]

  are obviously you didn't use an [TS]

  application it won't show up on your [TS]

  list of things that you used and i'm [TS]

  assuming you get to do this after the [TS]

  month is over so you can't retro [TS]

  actively go back and use an app that you [TS]

  forgot to use or something so based on [TS]

  how many people you know if I just comes [TS]

  down to a ratio they add up all of those [TS]

  scores and see who what the number one [TS]

  most valuable and was the number two in [TS]

  the number three and figure out how they [TS]

  break down percentage wise and they [TS]

  divvy up the pot of money amongst the [TS]

  applications according to the percent [TS]

  and right um so a couple of the points [TS]

  in this this program is entirely [TS]

  optional at you if you are a developer [TS]

  out of apt on that clients and you don't [TS]

  want to participate you don't have to it [TS]

  just ignore it goes away developers are [TS]

  free to monetize their applications [TS]

  through their own mechanisms so this has [TS]

  no effect on how you want to make money [TS]

  from your app than that client you want [TS]

  to sell it on the app store you want to [TS]

  give it away for free you want it to be [TS]

  open source you want to sell it from [TS]

  your website you want to have [TS]

  subscription like whatever you want to [TS]

  do with your app that net client make [TS]

  money however you want app then it [TS]

  doesn't care you don't to participate in [TS]

  this program you don't have to they say [TS]

  this should we thought it was a bonus [TS]

  for building software that app that [TS]

  number members use in love [TS]

  and the final point on their little back [TS]

  here I think is really important one it [TS]

  says is important that users do not feel [TS]

  pressured bullied or guilted into [TS]

  providing feedback anyone who's used [TS]

  ebay notice how this goes you must send [TS]

  me feat five star feedback send me [TS]

  feedback I need you to say I'm awesome [TS]

  because John terrible right so you [TS]

  cannot do that is that they say they're [TS]

  for developers who attempt to influence [TS]

  the incentive program by directly [TS]

  soliciting votes from the users will be [TS]

  suspended from the program so if you [TS]

  even try to say hey guys don't forget [TS]

  you know put my slider all the way up to [TS]

  the end and say I'm super valuable at [TS]

  the end of that's it you're out of the [TS]

  program all right and I think these are [TS]

  all excellent rules and this system is [TS]

  definitely structured in a way that it [TS]

  doesn't mess with anyone else's stuff [TS]

  and you can totally ignore it if you [TS]

  don't think it's important now what [TS]

  surprised me about this like since the [TS]

  last week when this came out is that [TS]

  lots of people have come out against [TS]

  this program and that surprises me [TS]

  because it seems like you don't you [TS]

  don't like it I don't don't use it and [TS]

  like a dick and it doesn't seem to [TS]

  affect you one way or the other but it's [TS]

  like the mere existence of this program [TS]

  like poisons the well in some way and [TS]

  makes it makes the ecosystem for app net [TS]

  client applications worse in some way I [TS]

  just don't see that but I have put a [TS]

  link to something written by Charlie [TS]

  Kindel called ping developers is a bad [TS]

  idea that is actually referencing the [TS]

  idea of like rim and Microsoft and stuff [TS]

  like that trying to pay developers to [TS]

  write for their sort of beleaguered [TS]

  mobile platforms legitimate use of that [TS]

  term against non-apple companies [TS]

  achievement unlocked hey write write [TS]

  write your application port your [TS]

  application to rim you know and we'll [TS]

  pay you ten thousand dollars guaranteed [TS]

  and bubbles so like so here's the [TS]

  courtroom think paying developers to [TS]

  target your platform is a sign of [TS]

  desperation doing so I mean developers [TS]

  have no skin in the game a platforms [TS]

  were developed or not do not have skin [TS]

  in the game is artificially propped up [TS]

  and will not succeed in the long run [TS]

  like I agree with all this like if you [TS]

  if you can't get people to write apps [TS]

  for your platform and you're a solution [TS]

  is I'm going to pay you to do it that [TS]

  seems bad to me but I feel like there's [TS]

  a difference between that and what app [TS]

  that is doing because it's not like [TS]

  they're it's not like app that the [TS]

  company is taking a lot of its own money [TS]

  that came you know there's just like [TS]

  part of their budget and paying people [TS]

  out right please make an application for [TS]

  us we'll give you ten thousand dollars [TS]

  instead what they're doing is taking [TS]

  some small portion of the money that [TS]

  their users pay to use the service which [TS]

  right away is totally different than you [TS]

  know these companies who I guess maybe [TS]

  they're taking money from people who buy [TS]

  rim playbooks or something but it just [TS]

  seems different to me because it's more [TS]

  direct line and they're giving it to [TS]

  people who are already like they're [TS]

  already making applications and they're [TS]

  giving it based on how much the users [TS]

  like those applications so if someone [TS]

  makes them alright fine we'll make a [TS]

  stupid part of our application to the [TS]

  rim playbook and it's a crappy port but [TS]

  we don't care we get our money thanks [TS]

  see you later all right if you make a [TS]

  cruddy app that net application you're [TS]

  not going to get any of this money [TS]

  because no user is going to mark it as [TS]

  valuable or even use it at all right so [TS]

  i think the incentives are pretty much [TS]

  correctly aligned and i also kind of [TS]

  like the fact that it's a at least [TS]

  initially a pretty small amount of money [TS]

  twenty thousand dollars split among how [TS]

  many possible applications it's not [TS]

  going to make you rich or anything it's [TS]

  just like a nice little bonus yeah i [TS]

  think i think all of the incentives are [TS]

  correctly aligned make an application [TS]

  that people's like don't bug them about [TS]

  it and if they actually like it to move [TS]

  the little slider up you get a little [TS]

  money the end of the month like what's [TS]

  what's so bad about that and you know [TS]

  and let them make their money however [TS]

  they want let them sell through the [TS]

  after like this this does not affect [TS]

  their business at all right it remains [TS]

  to be seen hat just how low profile will [TS]

  be maybe no one will ever vote and so [TS]

  like three people will vote and give and [TS]

  the whole pot will go to like whatever [TS]

  those three people liked maybe being [TS]

  prompted to vote for which applications [TS]

  you like to be done an intrusive and [TS]

  annoying way and it might annoy the [TS]

  people who use the service i don't know [TS]

  at this point i think all the people [TS]

  involved in app net are kind of like the [TS]

  participants like me and you and the [TS]

  other people it's all kind of a kumbaya [TS]

  we're a bunch of nervous we don't love [TS]

  each other type of thing and so we'll [TS]

  all like be enthusiastic you'll be going [TS]

  oh i love this app let me put my slider [TS]

  up and I'm you know you know give [TS]

  feedback to the apps we like that may [TS]

  change if the the service ever becomes [TS]

  really popular and this may seem to be [TS]

  an annoyance is like I don't care which [TS]

  perhaps get money I'm just never going [TS]

  to look at that I just won't vote like [TS]

  voting is not mandatory I assume [TS]

  so I got actually got a little bit of [TS]

  feedback about this from Dalton Caldwell [TS]

  the app that net founder and I asked him [TS]

  there bro yeah I asked him if I could [TS]

  quote him to quote his email on the show [TS]

  but haven't heard back from so i can't [TS]

  really quote can you paraphrase it i [TS]

  mean basically he agrees with that the [TS]

  thing that paying developers to write [TS]

  for platform is a bad idea but he says [TS]

  that's not what they're doing oh and he [TS]

  actually tells a story about his [TS]

  previous company where her rim and [TS]

  Microsoft were actually wanted to pay [TS]

  them to port their stuff over but they [TS]

  turned him down because it just seemed [TS]

  to get oh and this is not the same thing [TS]

  is it's more of a a way to reward [TS]

  developers who build applications that [TS]

  users like like that's the whole you [TS]

  know everyone's incentives are aligned [TS]

  we want users to be happy we want [TS]

  developers to be happy if developers are [TS]

  not making users happy then they don't [TS]

  get anything no and presumably if a [TS]

  developer is making a cruddy application [TS]

  they would have trouble selling it as [TS]

  well right what's the next part of this [TS]

  I think the next thing I want to talk [TS]

  about is did I put this in the show [TS]

  notes this week was kind of a big weep [TS]

  week for app net for an interesting [TS]

  reason related to this now let's keep [TS]

  them in suspense let's let's do the [TS]

  second sponsor and then all right sighs [TS]

  I'm I'm I'm this is a good topic all [TS]

  right I mean they're all good John [TS]

  shutterstock.com is over 20 million [TS]

  stock photos they do vectors at the [TS]

  illustrations a new video clips you're [TS]

  looking for something if you're building [TS]

  something you're building a website [TS]

  you're building a presentation you want [TS]

  to put something on some swag that you [TS]

  want to you know give away in a show you [TS]

  just need some color for your website [TS]

  whatever it is go check these guys out [TS]

  they've got photographers artists [TS]

  illustrators all around the world it's [TS]

  not like it's you know Western centric [TS]

  we got a lot of listeners over in Asia [TS]

  did you know that young and there's [TS]

  photos and stuff from all corners of the [TS]

  earth it doesn't matter you need you [TS]

  need an image for a mock-up you're [TS]

  working on go check these guys out [TS]

  doesn't matter then what I really like [TS]

  about them is they don't nickel and [TS]

  diming they basically everything out [TS]

  there it's one price it's always the [TS]

  highest best quality you don't have to [TS]

  pay [TS]

  extra for that like many other sites [TS]

  it's one deal and as you're browsing [TS]

  around you don't have to open up a [TS]

  million tabs which I don't really like [TS]

  they have a really cool lightbox you [TS]

  just say oh I like this one checking [TS]

  your lightbox and at the end you decide [TS]

  what you want to keep what you want to [TS]

  buy what package you want to put [TS]

  together and done and even have an iPad [TS]

  app for all of this stuff because they [TS]

  like like the iOS people they have all [TS]

  kinds of Licensing to that's another [TS]

  question somebody's ask me they have [TS]

  enhanced licenses so that if you want to [TS]

  put something and print it or put it on [TS]

  swag or use it and yeah you can get that [TS]

  they offer that so here's what you do [TS]

  for our listeners John you can get [TS]

  thirty percent off any package once you [TS]

  find the images you'd like and decide to [TS]

  purchase again all they're all on board [TS]

  with the stand sent me thing dan sent me [TS]

  ten it's all you got to do [TS]

  shutterstock.com dan sent me ten thirty [TS]

  percent off and go check them out thanks [TS]

  very very much there a new sponsor [TS]

  shutterstock.com go check him out good [TS]

  job correctly surmising that I was [TS]

  blowing my nose when you yeah tried to [TS]

  ask me outside your death I figured [TS]

  something was going on so this thirty [TS]

  percent the record for highest discount [TS]

  offered on the show that's my baby that [TS]

  is big alright kudos so the important [TS]

  app.net happenings this week was they [TS]

  won net bot was really hot and as you [TS]

  might guess from the name if you are [TS]

  familiar with tap BOTS makers of many [TS]

  fine iOS products whose name and in bot [TS]

  net bot is sort of an app that net [TS]

  version of tweed bot which is an [TS]

  extremely popular Twitter client for iOS [TS]

  ah great your first of all this isn't [TS]

  this is my iOS Twitter app of choice [TS]

  it's also the app that I use on [TS]

  application that I use them OS 10 and [TS]

  when this thing came out now in cuz just [TS]

  just yesterday somebody started [TS]

  complaining saying Dan for someone who [TS]

  talks about app done that's what you [TS]

  sure don't use it well she has haven't [TS]

  had a good iOS app no offense to all the [TS]

  people have been making them but this is [TS]

  the one this is the one I've been [TS]

  waiting for yeah i've been using a [TS]

  app.net more than some of you other [TS]

  people who are extremely widely followed [TS]

  on app.net i might add anyway I've been [TS]

  using it anyway that i can and before [TS]

  there were iOS clients out there were [TS]

  web clients that you could use an iOS [TS]

  with a little you not just html5 web app [TS]

  and make a little home screen icon for [TS]

  it like short message with like the [TS]

  vowels removed right that was actually [TS]

  not bad it was actually pretty good i [TS]

  was using it that way in iOS for a while [TS]

  and then i started using river riv are [TS]

  because that was a fairly recent maybe [TS]

  like a week ago iOS client and like [TS]

  goddesses it was pretty good it's better [TS]

  than the web one but the reason net bot [TS]

  is such a big deal is because tweetbot [TS]

  is so incredibly popular and tap BOTS is [TS]

  you know I top-tier iOS developer not [TS]

  that I'm saying any of the people making [TS]

  the you know app that net was an [TS]

  opportunity for people who are not well [TS]

  known developers to make a name for [TS]

  themselves like hey the very best [TS]

  app.net client is blonde you've never [TS]

  heard of these guys but they make the [TS]

  bet it's kind of the same way you know [TS]

  icon factory made its name with [TS]

  twitterrific or tap box for that matter [TS]

  with tweet bot like you come onto the [TS]

  scene in and enter a space that either [TS]

  it hasn't isn't that crowded or you are [TS]

  the head and shoulders above everyone [TS]

  else and you become a name right and [TS]

  then maybe like the next time some [TS]

  social networking comes along people [TS]

  want you to port your thing over there [TS]

  the interesting thing about net bot is [TS]

  that net bot has been in development [TS]

  long before this developer incentive [TS]

  program was announced and you can tell [TS]

  if you look at the like they have some [TS]

  services that log which application [TS]

  using to post to app net and there was a [TS]

  very popular client whose clients string [TS]

  was alpha my understanding is that that [TS]

  was actually net bought in disguise you [TS]

  know during the beta testing period so [TS]

  that's been going on for a while like [TS]

  they didn't jump in here when they said [TS]

  oh $20,000 divided amongst ten different [TS]

  client applications we got to get some [TS]

  of that know they sell the application i [TS]

  think it's like three dollars or five [TS]

  dollars or something they sell it on the [TS]

  iOS App Store and that's how they plan [TS]

  on making their money and I think [TS]

  they're doing pretty well if you look at [TS]

  the stats i wish i could find this page [TS]

  with the thing of like what percentage [TS]

  of post app that are made by which [TS]

  clients and number one with a bullet is [TS]

  net bot and its previous incognito alias [TS]

  alpha and everybody who is doing that [TS]

  paid money to get net bought and the [TS]

  good thing about app that net is that [TS]

  everybody who's on app.net paid money to [TS]

  be on app.net so they've proven they're [TS]

  willing to pay money for the service and [TS]

  what's you know a couple more bucks [TS]

  now I'm bought net bought as well I have [TS]

  a tremendous number to our clients I [TS]

  have tweetbot I have twitterrific I have [TS]

  a bunch of other ones that have long [TS]

  since been deleted off my phone that i [TS]

  bought back in the day all I back to [TS]

  like twinkle do you remember that one [TS]

  mmm vaguely they would be so not within [TS]

  the the developer guidelines to Twitter [TS]

  because they were like trying to build [TS]

  their own social network on the back of [TS]

  twitter anyway i buy lots of Twitter [TS]

  clients but and I buy them because [TS]

  they're a couple bucks and I want to try [TS]

  them out but I have not ever really [TS]

  truly left my first love we just were [TS]

  terrific on both the mac and on iOS so [TS]

  I've had tweet bottom my phone forever I [TS]

  just don't use but net bot is I think [TS]

  the at least the most polished app.net [TS]

  client I was about to say twitter client [TS]

  on the phone available now I would still [TS]

  love to have twitterrific available um [TS]

  on the iOS instead of net pot I know [TS]

  they were called a peripheral something [TS]

  like that operation there you go that'd [TS]

  be a good one hey I'm gonna put that out [TS]

  there apparition good name for an apt on [TS]

  that client go for it serious run yeah [TS]

  someone I'm just nice guy John I know [TS]

  someone did avian a dia n which is a [TS]

  play on eight the letter a letter D [TS]

  letter n for appt net that was a cute [TS]

  name oh I was using was it rhino or [TS]

  something like that before that yeah III [TS]

  this is the magic of the iOS app so do [TS]

  you think about it like you know people [TS]

  that go you know if they know me that I [TS]

  Coheed you only use twitterrific yeah [TS]

  but I buy all the other applications cuz [TS]

  they're like three bucks and it's like [TS]

  huh you know you never know how are you [TS]

  gonna know like there's no trials so it [TS]

  makes you go alright well buy it like it [TS]

  you know it may seem like i'm only [TS]

  supporting twitterrific but i buy every [TS]

  other half anyway and they don't i bet [TS]

  those people enjoy me buying their [TS]

  applications than not using them because [TS]

  i don't bug them with with feedback but [TS]

  speaking of bugging with feedback people [TS]

  may be wondering this is a little bit of [TS]

  a tangent here but why what what's the [TS]

  difference between a net bot and a [TS]

  theoretical twitterrific thing why do I [TS]

  use Twitter Africa not and not tweet but [TS]

  when I for Twitter what's the big deal [TS]

  what's the big is like just because the [TS]

  graphics like a lot of people the bots [TS]

  you know the tap BOTS graphics are very [TS]

  sort of they do a custom ui's [TS]

  really nice but is kind of heavy it's [TS]

  not like a minimalist interface you know [TS]

  they they do their own thing and then [TS]

  make their own widgets and they would [TS]

  just look really cool but they are kind [TS]

  of heavy and some people don't like that [TS]

  heaviness so they don't like that it [TS]

  doesn't look native like that doesn't [TS]

  look like apples other application looks [TS]

  like it looks like a tweet bot advocate [TS]

  or a tap wats application so you like [TS]

  that are you doing that's kind of an [TS]

  aesthetic choice but that's not what [TS]

  keeps me away from tweetbot what keeps [TS]

  me away from tweet pot and what makes me [TS]

  wish I had twitterrific frap net is that [TS]

  I want what I call for lack of a better [TS]

  term a unified timeline and for all the [TS]

  people who are making app that net [TS]

  clients since day one I've been like [TS]

  okay guys like I know you're all making [TS]

  apps I net clients I would like to use [TS]

  your clients but i would like a unified [TS]

  timeline so the first person to make a [TS]

  client with the unified timeline is [TS]

  going to get my you know my business if [TS]

  they sell it or my enthusiastic support [TS]

  if they don't sell it all just say oh [TS]

  you know people use people ask me what [TS]

  what client are using to readapt net and [TS]

  if you make me one with unified timeline [TS]

  i will use your client and so I used a [TS]

  series of app.net clients for the mac in [TS]

  the beginning but none of them offered a [TS]

  unified timeline and then finally wedge [TS]

  did and that's the one I'm currently [TS]

  using on the Mac I should put it get a [TS]

  URL for that like is like wedge net Nate [TS]

  sm com here asking me I don't know it is [TS]

  wedge dot Nate Steadman calm Nate [TS]

  Steadman why would I know that his [TS]

  handles Nathan o course named Aiden made [TS]

  Steadman yeah well you make it make a [TS]

  name for yourself I'd never heard of [TS]

  Nate Steadman before uh but now who [TS]

  doesn't know Steadman I mean he's the [TS]

  nice and he made an app that neckline [TS]

  which is you know interesting and it [TS]

  looks like a lot of the other clients [TS]

  but the big feature it has the unified [TS]

  timeline now what do I mean by that what [TS]

  I mean by unified timeline is on both [TS]

  Twitter and app.net and I these similar [TS]

  services I many applications I would say [TS]

  most application at this point let you [TS]

  choose what you're viewing so you can [TS]

  view what they usually call your [TS]

  timeline which is the the posts from the [TS]

  people you follow and also includes the [TS]

  posts that you make all right and then [TS]

  there's another usually a tab or a [TS]

  button or a view or some other screen [TS]

  that you change to that shows replies [TS]

  and or mentions where these are people [TS]

  you don't follow but they wrote [TS]

  at whatever your handle is in the name [TS]

  or they reply directly to you sometimes [TS]

  those are distinguished like a direct [TS]

  reply versus someone that just mentioned [TS]

  your name in the middle of a post it's [TS]

  so hard not to call these tweets and [TS]

  that that is what i say is a non unified [TS]

  thing so a unified timeline is what [TS]

  twitterrific has and by the way [TS]

  twitterrific was i believe the very [TS]

  first twitter twitter client application [TS]

  that wasn't a website i could be wrong [TS]

  on this but if it wasn't the first it [TS]

  was surely the first prominent one and [TS]

  it ad from day one what I call unified [TS]

  timeline which is that the post from the [TS]

  people you follow and also the post from [TS]

  the people who mentioned your name are [TS]

  replied to you are in a single list [TS]

  sorted chronologically and they're [TS]

  color-coded and stuff so you could see [TS]

  like oh this is a reply so you can tell [TS]

  it why am I seeing this is because [TS]

  someone mentioned my name versus this is [TS]

  a post from somebody who I follow and [TS]

  anytime I mentioned a unified timeline [TS]

  lots of people say I don't like unifying [TS]

  timeline I please don't listen to this [TS]

  person because I just make requests you [TS]

  know anyone who makes a cool client like [TS]

  hey I'd love it if you had a huge fight [TS]

  timeline guys and then other people say [TS]

  don't listen to him I don't want a [TS]

  unified timeline don't put that in there [TS]

  I mean you know we all we all can [TS]

  petition developers to make the [TS]

  application we want and the developers [TS]

  decide what you're doing is fine but [TS]

  it's really not an either-or proposition [TS]

  because a lot of these applications [TS]

  wedge included have like a little [TS]

  sidebar thing that is icons like a [TS]

  little @ sign that shows your replies [TS]

  and like a little house icon that shows [TS]

  like your timeline and there's just [TS]

  another icon that has a house with a [TS]

  little adnate that shows them both [TS]

  combined like it's just an additional [TS]

  view on the stream of things that are [TS]

  happening in iOS kinds it's a little bit [TS]

  harder because sometimes it's like well [TS]

  we don't have a room for another button [TS]

  there and so we have to choose do we [TS]

  include replies in the single stream or [TS]

  not and so maybe they might not want to [TS]

  add that me knows I developers can make [TS]

  the applications they want to make and [TS]

  if you look at the the Twitter [TS]

  applications out there I believe most of [TS]

  them do not have unified timelines but [TS]

  the thing I'm always stressing the [TS]

  people in discussing is a unified Taman [TS]

  is not some crazy thing that I made up [TS]

  it's what twitterrific did since day one [TS]

  the the grandfather of all Twitter [TS]

  clients and I've been using it since day [TS]

  one and I like it and so this is big [TS]

  this just reflects the way that you in [TS]

  particular have always used Twitter you [TS]

  use twitter yeah [TS]

  almost like a it's an email client of [TS]

  sorts for you yeah that's one of the [TS]

  questions from from developers is like [TS]

  Oh asking me because I'm the prominent [TS]

  person complaining about it what what is [TS]

  it about a unified timeline that you [TS]

  like I think you've actually mentioned [TS]

  this on past shows and it's pretty [TS]

  simple answer for me I just want to [TS]

  check one place for stuff it drives me [TS]

  crazy to to read you know Twitter or [TS]

  wrap the nut or whatever and say I gotta [TS]

  look at my timeline then I gotta look at [TS]

  my replies they don't look at my [TS]

  timeline I gotta look at my replies I [TS]

  want to see one list of stuff that I'm [TS]

  working my way through like 1q it's like [TS]

  why why separate your York you into two [TS]

  separate things uh it's one place to [TS]

  check right and the other part of it [TS]

  since I tend to get a lot of replies [TS]

  from people who I don't follow mostly [TS]

  because I followed very few people and [TS]

  you know second because I have a lot of [TS]

  followers and so they'll reply to me and [TS]

  I converse with them like I'm I'm not [TS]

  just looking at the replies with [TS]

  curiosity I reply back to them and with [TS]

  it with a split timeline my replies to [TS]

  them show up in the timeline but their [TS]

  replies to me show up on this other pain [TS]

  like they're not interleaved so it's [TS]

  hard to keep track of the conversation [TS]

  if they were all on one thing i could [TS]

  see i say this then you say that then i [TS]

  say this then you say that and you say [TS]

  that then i said this right it's like a [TS]

  conversation in a single place instead [TS]

  of being split up into two panes then i [TS]

  have to reconcile them by date stamp [TS]

  which is hard because they we say like [TS]

  to em for two minutes ago or something [TS]

  and you have to you know which one was [TS]

  refreshed at the right time and all [TS]

  those numbers updating real it's crazy [TS]

  making to me now when I think about I [TS]

  talked about this originally on the show [TS]

  I said that the only not the only the [TS]

  general reason but a reason that I could [TS]

  see that you would definitely want to [TS]

  split things if you have tremendous no [TS]

  deliver falls like I have a lot of [TS]

  followers but not like you know famous [TS]

  person number of followers like if you [TS]

  have like a hundred thousand followers [TS]

  or a million followers or whatever [TS]

  you've got to have those replies on a [TS]

  separate tab and those mentions on a [TS]

  separate n because otherwise you'll [TS]

  never be able to read anything than [TS]

  people you follow and maybe lots of [TS]

  famous people don't read anything from [TS]

  the people they fall anyway but you know [TS]

  the Gruber was my example he's got to [TS]

  have his replies on a separate tab [TS]

  because anytime he post anything is a [TS]

  thousand replies and he would it would [TS]

  destroy his timeline for him like if [TS]

  every time you post anything 500 people [TS]

  may contain replies to you or not or not [TS]

  not a name even you know thoughtful [TS]

  replies you can't read your timeline [TS]

  anymore because it's just totally filled [TS]

  with reply so [TS]

  I feel is a very legitimate reason to [TS]

  absolutely want to have replies and [TS]

  mentions separate there are there many [TS]

  other reasons including just personal [TS]

  preference that you want them separate [TS]

  like that's just the way you want to do [TS]

  it but that is a strong reason but it [TS]

  still seems weird to me that the [TS]

  dominant metaphor has become two [TS]

  separate places because i see i can [TS]

  imagine all these people you know [TS]

  checking the two places for each thing [TS]

  like it you know people don't like have [TS]

  the check both twitter and app.net and [TS]

  i'm getting annoyed by that too right [TS]

  but Twitter is Terms of Service don't [TS]

  allow unified client and blah blah blah [TS]

  anyway but now you're making yourself [TS]

  how to check for places you've got to [TS]

  drek your Twitter timeline your Twitter [TS]

  mentions and replies then your app then [TS]

  at timeline then your app that mentions [TS]

  in replies and one of them highlights [TS]

  but the other one doesn't and you're [TS]

  switching back and forth them adjust I I [TS]

  do not like it so I'm very happy that [TS]

  wedge provides a unified timeline and I [TS]

  would love it if an iOS client would [TS]

  provide a unified timeline it doesn't [TS]

  mean that that client has to provide it [TS]

  is the default it doesn't mean that it [TS]

  has to remove any of the other views you [TS]

  know I'll take what I can get make it [TS]

  make it a preference make it a another [TS]

  button on a toolbar you know whatever [TS]

  you want to do you know for example [TS]

  twitterrific has a separate view for [TS]

  mentions as well I never use it but it's [TS]

  there if that's what you want so I [TS]

  really hope that in the diversity of [TS]

  developers out there making clients wrap [TS]

  that knot that somebody on iOS does this [TS]

  and I would encourage the people who [TS]

  like who do it the other way to give the [TS]

  unified timeline a try because i think [TS]

  it's not going to be as crazy as i think [TS]

  it's going to be especially if you don't [TS]

  get a ton of replies it like it just you [TS]

  know it just makes it have one place [TS]

  that you're going to check I've [TS]

  certainly tried the other way for a lot [TS]

  like basically every other client that I [TS]

  try is it has split and like a now I'm [TS]

  using net bought as my main app.net [TS]

  client right split like so I'm doing it [TS]

  that way I'm not like I'm basing this on [TS]

  like fear of the unknown I have many [TS]

  many years experience using the split [TS]

  timeline so i would encourage people who [TS]

  use a split time when to give a unified [TS]

  want to try and where can you do that [TS]

  well twitterrific on the mac or on iOS [TS]

  or if you're not done that try wedge do [TS]

  you have any predictions on the [TS]

  possibility of a twitterrific type [TS]

  app.net client from our friends over it [TS]

  icon fat gun factory well that's the big [TS]

  thing about net pot coming in like so [TS]

  we've had these app that net accounts [TS]

  for [TS]

  like me you just mention people saying [TS]

  oh you're on at the net but you never [TS]

  use it right and one thing is like well [TS]

  I'm not using it because they didn't [TS]

  find a client that alike or just haven't [TS]

  worked it into my workflow or it's like [TS]

  annoying to check to place like I'm [TS]

  already on Twitter to have to check two [TS]

  places but someone is prominent as tap [TS]

  BOTS coming in with such a well-known [TS]

  property as the you know net bot tweet [TS]

  but type brand that says all wait a [TS]

  second this app that net thing might not [TS]

  be a joke it's not just a bunch of crazy [TS]

  nerds and a bunch of like first time [TS]

  developers trying to hack stuff together [TS]

  here some serious stuff was going on uh [TS]

  and the interesting thing is I would [TS]

  imagine that doesn't cause a flood of [TS]

  new users all it does is make all the [TS]

  users who page 50 bucks like a month ago [TS]

  like wake up and go what bring a pots [TS]

  made a client paramedical alright i [TS]

  guess i can use this service now oh I'll [TS]

  put it on I'll put it on my phone I note [TS]

  at lies i use tweetbot i love it i'll [TS]

  just put it next to the tweet by now i [TS]

  got the the blue nightmare duck and the [TS]

  gray nightmare done nice man i'm [TS]

  terrified by that icon i think it's i [TS]

  think it's horrifying uh it became [TS]

  beautifully drawn my objection is to the [TS]

  to the concept of giant robo duck with [TS]

  big orifice anyway and it great and the [TS]

  middle the orifice uh and so the [TS]

  activity on that that has exploded in [TS]

  like the past couple of days I mean [TS]

  you've noticed that oh yeah totally it's [TS]

  it's great and I'm like it used to be [TS]

  that I would look at at that end they'll [TS]

  be like to post since yesterday now [TS]

  keeping up with that but net sometimes [TS]

  is more activity there than in my [TS]

  Twitter for you now granted you know in [TS]

  the microcosm of my nerd world yeah all [TS]

  my nerd friends and the people i follow [TS]

  were like over enough net whereas just [TS]

  Joe random person has never heard of [TS]

  that the net and none of the people who [TS]

  follow her over there but in the nerd [TS]

  world activity really picked up and I've [TS]

  got to think it's not because a flood of [TS]

  new people decided to pay thirty-six [TS]

  bucks or five bucks a month for app that [TS]

  net I think what it is is people already [TS]

  paid woke up and start using the account [TS]

  they already had and I think that's a [TS]

  tremendously important milestone in the [TS]

  history of app net is that they got like [TS]

  a top-tier developer to bless their [TS]

  service now her icon factory get back to [TS]

  your question I'm sure liked at BOTS [TS]

  they had decided what their plan was [TS]

  trapped on that long ago before the [TS]

  developer incentive program and [TS]

  certainly like before the new with the [TS]

  other developers I don't think they were [TS]

  talking to each other and go [TS]

  factor you can do that net because we [TS]

  might do it like I don't I would imagine [TS]

  they don't have that type of [TS]

  communication but who knows but i think [TS]

  the calculus for tap BOTS probably was [TS]

  we've got a well factored application [TS]

  making a version of it for app that net [TS]

  would not be too difficult we've already [TS]

  done like most of the work if you make [TS]

  your application if you factor it out [TS]

  well and you don't mix your UI with your [TS]

  you know networking and content [TS]

  generation stuff you can't you know it's [TS]

  not so bad to make an application point [TS]

  to different service and they figured [TS]

  you know what the heck it seems like [TS]

  that probably do the same calculus we [TS]

  just talked about like all those people [TS]

  showed a willingness to pay money we [TS]

  know people like our products on Twitter [TS]

  maybe we'll make some money off of this [TS]

  and I'm sure when they saw the developer [TS]

  and center program they're like oh hey [TS]

  you know bonus will probably get some of [TS]

  that too so thumbs up right icon [TS]

  factories got to be doing the same thing [TS]

  I mean I can factory unfortunately my [TS]

  understanding is there in the middle of [TS]

  I mean they're always in the middle of [TS]

  like they're they're working on twitter [TS]

  if eclair flagship product and they made [TS]

  some post to say despite all these [TS]

  Twitter things that are happening we are [TS]

  still committed to twitterrific working [TS]

  hard on the next version like they made [TS]

  these blog post on our website you know [TS]

  all systems go we're still doing that [TS]

  this could be a distraction but on the [TS]

  other hand of their app is also well [TS]

  fact or not they figured hey I don't [TS]

  know give it a try maybe the next [TS]

  version of two terrific when it comes [TS]

  out we'll have a companion application [TS]

  that works in app net I would not expect [TS]

  a version of the existing twitterrific [TS]

  like ported tap net i would say whatever [TS]

  the new version is whatever that's going [TS]

  to look like for the mac and iOS and [TS]

  ipad and you know all that stuff there [TS]

  may be a version of that that appears [TS]

  app then i guess based on no inside [TS]

  information i'm just speculating Oh [TS]

  speculating / hoping you know because i [TS]

  love that application but it isn't hey [TS]

  wedge is coming along nicely and as the [TS]

  one developer who is most responsive to [TS]

  my incessant whining about features and [TS]

  bug reports I give a Nate Steadman's [TS]

  application I thumb up and it's also [TS]

  free right now so I just need something [TS]

  like that on iOS so I think it's been a [TS]

  good week trap net yeah very good week [TS]

  for them best maybe best week since they [TS]

  got their funding even yeah i mean like [TS]

  they've gotten stages one was this [TS]

  curiosity [TS]

  that I felt bad about even like I have [TS]

  to support it because I really want what [TS]

  they're doing to succeed but I just feel [TS]

  like it's not going to a Marco had the [TS]

  same feeling like God just seems like [TS]

  they're not going to make it but I [TS]

  really endorse what they're doing right [TS]

  and the second one was holy cow they [TS]

  made their goal right twice over right [TS]

  and then it's like now what like those [TS]

  two days where we all talk about app.net [TS]

  on app.net there we go all right so so [TS]

  what we do this is it anyway back to [TS]

  twitter right right and but now it's [TS]

  like all right now this is getting [TS]

  serious the people over there the money [TS]

  is there the client app is there and now [TS]

  people are talking and they're not just [TS]

  talking about the fact that net bought [TS]

  is there they're not just talking about [TS]

  bugs in app that net clients they're [TS]

  just having you know totally unrelated [TS]

  conversations about you know the normal [TS]

  stuff that you you converse about I [TS]

  don't know what they were talking about [TS]

  you know the singleton conference in my [TS]

  follow stream and what else would I need [TS]

  some question about whether you [TS]

  capitalize bullying and documentation [TS]

  that's nothing to do with app that net [TS]

  and that spawned a big conversation [TS]

  there like people are using it I'm [TS]

  talking about podcasts talking about [TS]

  five by five stuff you know people are [TS]

  using it as a real service now so you [TS]

  know there's it's this a stair-step type [TS]

  thing the next big hype i post i posted [TS]

  today i was going to say i tweeted i [TS]

  posted an app that net today that the [TS]

  next big step in app thought nets rise [TS]

  to power Fame and success is they need [TS]

  to have crippling performance and [TS]

  reliability problems because that seems [TS]

  like one of the stepping stones right [TS]

  you have to go through that phase [TS]

  otherwise you haven't you haven't really [TS]

  made it that was half a joke but it's [TS]

  kind of half because what that means is [TS]

  that people you know what it means is [TS]

  you're on a hockey stick now they're [TS]

  like your usage has gone up to such a [TS]

  degree that you just can't keep up with [TS]

  it like you thought you were prepared [TS]

  you thought you had you know a solution [TS]

  that would handle you're scaling but you [TS]

  just didn't anticipate like the huge [TS]

  ramp up in activity and like everything [TS]

  goes down and we see your fail whale and [TS]

  we complain about it and hopefully we [TS]

  stay with the service and you know so [TS]

  maybe that's the next stair step what [TS]

  stores i sponsor John before you jump [TS]

  into your next speaking right thing it's [TS]

  a Shopify com a hosted e-commerce [TS]

  solution these guys are the really i am [TS]

  in my opinion the best e-commerce store [TS]

  around this is who we use whenever we [TS]

  sell our t-shirts and anything else [TS]

  we've ever sold in fact going back way [TS]

  to the old days of Hiva logic when i [TS]

  used to sell t-shirts back there I've [TS]

  always used Shopify to do this because [TS]

  it's the simplest way to do it it's a [TS]

  most straightforward way to do it and [TS]

  they really just handle everything you [TS]

  can make their store look exactly the [TS]

  way that you want it to just by [TS]

  customizing their templates you have [TS]

  full control over the HTML over the CSS [TS]

  and in fact if you go to Shopify calm [TS]

  well go to shop 5.com / 5 by 5 and [TS]

  you'll support the show and you'll also [TS]

  get a discount I'll tell you about but [TS]

  once you're there click examples there [TS]

  are over 30,000 stores powered by [TS]

  shopify and most of them look completely [TS]

  different from one another and on this [TS]

  examples page you can go in there and [TS]

  you can totally see what's possible [TS]

  these are customized templates these or [TS]

  unique designs and oh so what if you're [TS]

  not a designer pick one of the templates [TS]

  there's also galleria templates you can [TS]

  buy you can spend you know 10 20 bucks [TS]

  for something that a professional [TS]

  designer has built and you can customize [TS]

  it and use it for your own store it's [TS]

  really really cool and these guys have [TS]

  been a long time supporter and and then [TS]

  they are really really great these are [TS]

  the guys again that i use and i totally [TS]

  believe in them what they're doing oh [TS]

  and by the way the technical thing they [TS]

  do something called level one pci DSS [TS]

  compliance well if you want to sell [TS]

  something there's a lot of government [TS]

  regulations you get to know about [TS]

  there's a lot of security measures [TS]

  you're supposed to take and they do it [TS]

  they do it all for you it's all secure [TS]

  it's all ssl to everything you could [TS]

  possibly want and if you if you go to [TS]

  that that URL Shopify accomplished five [TS]

  by five not only will you support the [TS]

  show you'll also get three months free [TS]

  instead of the typical one month free [TS]

  three months free so you can open your [TS]

  store and sell stuff and it's on us so [TS]

  go check it out Shopify 2.com / 505 all [TS]

  right all right next bit [TS]

  I guess I have to skip this little [TS]

  little bit because running a little bit [TS]

  long time so I want to talk about tent I [TS]

  owe or just tint as they refer to [TS]

  themselves like this tent dot IO is [TS]

  their domain because I'm sure tint comm [TS]

  net and org we're all taken by domain [TS]

  squatters / camping [TS]

  squatters / camping [TS]

  paraphernalia sellers so they've got 10 [TS]

  I 0 which kind of makes sense because [TS]

  it's nerdy and I Oh input-output all [TS]

  that 8d it's a say open decentralized [TS]

  social network in protocol right I mean [TS]

  this comes up in the context of abnett [TS]

  because it its goal not its goals but [TS]

  like what the what you what would you do [TS]

  with 10 thought I do you kind of do [TS]

  similar stuff what you do with a planet [TS]

  and like app net there's the promise of [TS]

  doing more than just Twitter like status [TS]

  updates with it and so this has been [TS]

  around for a while like I said I've had [TS]

  it on my show notes for weeks what tent [TS]

  is is a protocol not so much a company [TS]

  or a service and they do that's part of [TS]

  the decentralized thing so talk about [TS]

  centralized versus decentralized I'm try [TS]

  to explain it to the people and [TS]

  understand what the difference is there [TS]

  centralized is something like Twitter [TS]

  Facebook Netflix or something like that [TS]

  there's one owner of the service twitter [TS]

  is a corporation they own twitter [TS]

  facebook owns facebook netflix owns that [TS]

  and and that defines the service the [TS]

  owner defines the service twitter is [TS]

  twitter and cooperated facebook is that [TS]

  company Netflix is that company to to [TS]

  you know to figure out what it is by [TS]

  seeing what it's not it's as if gmail [TS]

  was the only place you could do email [TS]

  the gmail was email and we know that's [TS]

  not true gmail is an email provider [TS]

  email is the open decentralized service [TS]

  but gmail doesn't define email female [TS]

  goes away tomorrow email lives on if [TS]

  Netflix goes away tomorrow Netflix is [TS]

  gone streaming video isn't gone but [TS]

  Netflix of the service is gone Facebook [TS]

  the company goes away Facebook the [TS]

  service goes away and same deal with [TS]

  Twitter right and same deal with App net [TS]

  if app.net goes away that service goes [TS]

  away as well because it is owned and [TS]

  defined by the company decentralized you [TS]

  can think of Lee centralized as a thing [TS]

  not as a place or a company so email is [TS]

  a thing right gmail is like a place you [TS]

  go to do email and gmail is owned by [TS]

  Google which is a company but email is [TS]

  the thing I'm an email is decentralized [TS]

  nobody owns email so if gmail starts [TS]

  doing evil things like putting ads in [TS]

  the middle of your outgoing mail or you [TS]

  know whatever you pick another email [TS]

  provider email doesn't go away you just [TS]

  you just say okay I don't like Google [TS]

  anymore they are a provider of the sea [TS]

  centralized service called email but I [TS]

  can go to yahoo hotmail make my own [TS]

  hosting service you could run your own [TS]

  mail server like email is an open [TS]

  decentralized protocol [TS]

  by no single company right and it is [TS]

  kind of a pain to change emails so the [TS]

  owners of your you know your email [TS]

  service provider whether sort of do [TS]

  matter a bit like for example if you [TS]

  have a crappy owner of your email [TS]

  service who won't allow forwarding to [TS]

  your new address i think hotmail did [TS]

  that for a while like if you want or [TS]

  yahoo maybe unremember which one if you [TS]

  wanted to forward to a new address you [TS]

  had to pay money or whatever so you'd [TS]

  want to change the new email and tell [TS]

  all your friends hey everybody my new [TS]

  email address is going to be whatever at [TS]

  whatever service or my own server com or [TS]

  whatever start emailing me there but you [TS]

  also want people who don't have who [TS]

  didn't get that updater things going to [TS]

  your old address to be forwarded to your [TS]

  new place so it does make a difference [TS]

  who you pick as your email provider but [TS]

  email itself cannot be killed by the [TS]

  evil deeds of any single company by a [TS]

  company going out of business or [TS]

  anything like that and in the end you [TS]

  can change your email like sometimes it [TS]

  is painful and you got to pay for [TS]

  forwarding or you gotta you know all [TS]

  sorts of shenanigans I i had an email [TS]

  address for two decades or something [TS]

  that I continued to pay for it just [TS]

  because too much stuff kept going to it [TS]

  and I did the conversion to gmail [TS]

  several years ago and I still find ones [TS]

  that are going to that old email address [TS]

  that I no longer have but it can't be [TS]

  done it can be done successfully uh and [TS]

  once you do that six you know that the [TS]

  changeover you change from gmail to [TS]

  hotmail to self hosted to whatever you [TS]

  want but you never leave email nobody [TS]

  leaves email I don't think I've ever [TS]

  seen anyone who does to leave the [TS]

  internet like you can leave twitter and [TS]

  you can leave facebook but you can't [TS]

  really leave email because you're still [TS]

  in the same system as everybody else [TS]

  right I thought I was out they dragged [TS]

  me back yeah maybe Merlin's trying to [TS]

  leave email but I look he's being [TS]

  successful he doesn't that guy's and [TS]

  used a computer in years that and so [TS]

  what this means is that no one bad actor [TS]

  can kill email right bad actors can [TS]

  cause people to change services and they [TS]

  have most most nerds fled yahoo and [TS]

  gmail and hotmail for gmail because they [TS]

  didn't like those people most people [TS]

  left AOL mail but none of those people [TS]

  could kill email so the next bit i have [TS]

  in the show notes is a story from dave [TS]

  winer entitled this from while ago and [TS]

  tired protocols don't mean much [TS]

  because 10 thought I 0 is a protocol [TS]

  like the protocols that make up email [TS]

  and so Dave is weighing in to say you [TS]

  know it does anyone can write a spec [TS]

  right it doesn't doesn't really matter [TS]

  how awesome your protocol is what [TS]

  matters is the software supporting that [TS]

  protocol what content is available [TS]

  through it and how compelling that [TS]

  content is and his point is the RSS a [TS]

  protocol that he was intimately involved [TS]

  in it became popular not because of its [TS]

  great design but because there was a [TS]

  significant amount of valuable content [TS]

  flowing through it so RSS is popular [TS]

  because people who have blogs that [TS]

  people want to read put in RSS feeds and [TS]

  you didn't you weren't interested in [TS]

  like oh I love the RSS protocol you were [TS]

  interested in oh this guy whose stuff I [TS]

  want to read I want to know every time [TS]

  you post something new if I subscribe to [TS]

  his feed this cool Mac application [TS]

  that's the software supporting the [TS]

  protocol is out there called netnewswire [TS]

  and it will tell me when all the people [TS]

  i'm interested in post new stuff and i [TS]

  can read it that's why RS has succeeded [TS]

  certainly not because it's an austin [TS]

  protocol and i think anyone's work with [TS]

  RSS might have some complaints about it [TS]

  he points out sometimes the protocol is [TS]

  so bad that it can kill a chance of your [TS]

  thing catching on like for example the [TS]

  soap w SL did you ever actually do any [TS]

  of that stuff yeah i did all that I did [TS]

  soap I did xml-rpc I did all that [TS]

  garbage what is it w DSL I don't [TS]

  remember the other acronym one with the [TS]

  W yeah thus those are hideous protocols [TS]

  awful yeah and like they were so bad [TS]

  that I think that contributed greatly to [TS]

  that not catching on and like you know [TS]

  rest and JSON they're like oh god like [TS]

  now we never have to look at soap again [TS]

  please just go away right so it only [TS]

  really works as a negative if you have [TS]

  an awesome protocol it doesn't matter if [TS]

  you don't have other things if you have [TS]

  a terrible protocol yeah I can kind of [TS]

  sink right so he finishes with this [TS]

  think of protocol as a road you could [TS]

  have a wonderful road well-paved wide [TS]

  lanes great rest areas but if it goes [TS]

  from nowhere to nowhere it's not going [TS]

  to be very popular no matter how nice it [TS]

  is um so I think basically what he means [TS]

  is it a good protocol alone doesn't get [TS]

  you that much ah but of course at the [TS]

  protocol doesn't meet some minimum level [TS]

  of sanity i guess like soap did not meet [TS]

  that minimum level of sanity then you [TS]

  can end up having big problems now [TS]

  getting back the email for a second [TS]

  emails protocols were not designed for [TS]

  today's and [TS]

  emails protocols you know smtp pop IMAP [TS]

  to some degree were designed a long time [TS]

  ago in the very different world smtp and [TS]

  pop have very little security and [TS]

  security should be in like seventeen [TS]

  levels of scare quotes you know because [TS]

  pop security used to be you know user [TS]

  space username pass space clear text [TS]

  password going over and unencrypted [TS]

  channel that's not that's not great like [TS]

  it was it was a kinder gentler world [TS]

  back then and people didn't really think [TS]

  about security that much right uh and in [TS]

  both cases smtp in pop there is no [TS]

  reliable method of global authentication [TS]

  like there's no ability to prove you are [TS]

  who you are and some might say this [TS]

  helps smtp and pop get along because [TS]

  there's no way you could heard those [TS]

  cats into any kind of central authority [TS]

  back then or even distributed authority [TS]

  for that matter but to this day I still [TS]

  have extreme trouble explaining to my [TS]

  parents that anybody can email anybody [TS]

  as anybody this this still boggles their [TS]

  mind this doesn't seem like like their [TS]

  the mental model of the world of the [TS]

  modern computer user is that if you get [TS]

  an email from somebody it came from them [TS]

  and as anyone who spent you know their [TS]

  misspent youth tell heading to port 25 [TS]

  and fake mailing people hmm anyone can [TS]

  email anyone as anyone like you just [TS]

  it's just something you type in a head I [TS]

  can type anything like that the [TS]

  president united states like Steve Jobs [TS]

  do you understand and it's like what do [TS]

  you mean wouldn't it no you're not no [TS]

  what no there's no global authentication [TS]

  it's just whatever you type in the [TS]

  Heather and I try to explain why you can [TS]

  trace it back through the hops and where [TS]

  the thing came from compared to [TS]

  legitimate mail and see if it came [TS]

  through the right smtp servers but like [TS]

  they don't understand all that stuff man [TS]

  you know it that is if you would say [TS]

  like how bad does the protocol have to [TS]

  be uh to kill itself well SMS be and pop [TS]

  are pretty ill suited to the modern [TS]

  world of the internet and yet through an [TS]

  accident of history they happen to catch [TS]

  on um but this is mostly a good thing [TS]

  because nobody owns smtp and pop that's [TS]

  why nobody owns email and if there was a [TS]

  central authority method making it so [TS]

  you had to actually prove who you were [TS]

  it would probably be owned by somebody [TS]

  at the very least the government or [TS]

  something and that would mean that email [TS]

  as a concept as a thing would be [TS]

  vulnerable to a single bad actor or [TS]

  multiple bad actors [TS]

  whereas now it's not because it's based [TS]

  on mileage protocols now it also made [TS]

  them easy to implement with the lack of [TS]

  security and everything so the [TS]

  consequences of these things one that [TS]

  caught on everywhere and the second [TS]

  consequence of S&T being pop being the [TS]

  way they are is a consequence we all [TS]

  live with every day and which has had a [TS]

  tremendous impact on the global economy [TS]

  and that's spam you know the consequence [TS]

  of making her protocol wrong not wrong [TS]

  enough to kill it but just wrong enough [TS]

  not wrong but like it'll suit it to the [TS]

  current application to the current [TS]

  environment is that we all have to do [TS]

  deal with spam we're all living with [TS]

  that now and many attempts have been [TS]

  made to fix it oh how about we make it a [TS]

  global authentication service and that [TS]

  was like man I don't want to do that [TS]

  well you know Microsoft will manage your [TS]

  identity and I don't think so how do you [TS]

  do domainkeys and encrypted like there [TS]

  have been steps to try to make this [TS]

  better but you can't get everybody on [TS]

  the same page and it's all kind of like [TS]

  smtp pop and imap or gateways they're up [TS]

  just so we can all talk to each other [TS]

  with email so it's this tough situation [TS]

  and we're still living with the [TS]

  consequences so I think the shows that [TS]

  protocols do matter and maybe maybe not [TS]

  as much as we wish they did like it you [TS]

  kind of wish that sng being pop had been [TS]

  because of it there so badly suited that [TS]

  we come up with better decentralized [TS]

  protocols of course the doomsday was [TS]

  scenario would be you'd come up with [TS]

  some sort of centralized protocol unlike [TS]

  email is dead we all use facebook [TS]

  messaging and that's that is a total [TS]

  doomsday snare or we all use AOL right [TS]

  I'm glad we dodged those boats but we [TS]

  still live with the consequences of pop [TS]

  and smtp not being suited to their [TS]

  current uses and so none of the [TS]

  alternate systems have yet gained the [TS]

  kind of universal support that the old [TS]

  school email protocols have I think the [TS]

  lesson of this is that being used at [TS]

  Universal is more important than being [TS]

  good and if something not so good [TS]

  becomes Universal we all suffer the [TS]

  consequences okay so back back to tint [TS]

  which is you know tent is trying to [TS]

  define you know a protocol like the you [TS]

  know not like the email protocols but in [TS]

  the same way that like the protocol [TS]

  exists as an independent thing and [TS]

  anybody can implement that protocol just [TS]

  like anyone can implement an email [TS]

  server you know you want to make a [TS]

  service to compete with Gmail go ahead [TS]

  write one you [TS]

  not the you know there's no proprietary [TS]

  protocol or gateway or whatever you can [TS]

  be part of the ecosystem so if you want [TS]

  to implement a set of servers or [TS]

  whatever called my cool you know service [TS]

  com and it's a tent service and you can [TS]

  sign up for it you can do that you can [TS]

  participate in the ecosystem just like [TS]

  you you could participate in the email [TS]

  system people on your tent server are [TS]

  part of the same world they can [TS]

  communicate with other people on other [TS]

  tent servers all the way down to the [TS]

  most granular thing in both email and [TS]

  tent is you could run your own email [TS]

  server your own outgoing and incoming [TS]

  email so ever many nerds do this not [TS]

  many regular people have many nerds do [TS]

  well you could run your own tent server [TS]

  then you were completely master of your [TS]

  own destiny you just need some [TS]

  connection to the internet and you need [TS]

  an email server and you have your email [TS]

  client point to your email server and [TS]

  you're off to the races well exactly the [TS]

  same thing intent if you know if you are [TS]

  super paranoid tinfoil hat you want to [TS]

  run your own tent server you totally can [TS]

  you are still part of the same system [TS]

  that's what decentralized means that you [TS]

  don't need the blessing from anybody [TS]

  else to run a tent server and be part of [TS]

  the tent service on exactly equal [TS]

  footing with everybody else who's part [TS]

  of the tent service so here's a couple [TS]

  of excerpts from the fact I think [TS]

  they've actually updated their fax since [TS]

  I pulled this many weeks ago but I think [TS]

  it's all still relevant one of the fact [TS]

  questions is can I switch tents servers [TS]

  like what if I make a tent account on [TS]

  some server and then I want to switch [TS]

  like you know what if I wanted to which [TS]

  email service they say absolutely you [TS]

  can take your relationships your [TS]

  followers with you you take your data [TS]

  and relationship with you and set up [TS]

  someplace else and they've done it in a [TS]

  clever way where they have built into [TS]

  the protocol that when you move like [TS]

  from one tent server to another you tell [TS]

  all the people who are you have [TS]

  relationships with on the tent network [TS]

  hey everybody I'm over here now like [TS]

  through the protocol like you don't have [TS]

  to eat it's like it's like an email you [TS]

  have to send out an email to your [TS]

  friends again everyone please update [TS]

  your address books and they don't like [TS]

  trust me from experience they do not [TS]

  update their address books people still [TS]

  have my ancient not exist an email in [TS]

  their address books like you're not [TS]

  relying on a human the Machine tells the [TS]

  other machines you know you used to be [TS]

  looking over here for this guy well in [TS]

  the future he is going to be over there [TS]

  update your database right and that's [TS]

  that's a built-in part of the protocol [TS]

  which is again you know they got a leg [TS]

  up an email because they figured in the [TS]

  centralized service people might change [TS]

  their [TS]

  providers and we don't want to make [TS]

  humans have to do all that updating one [TS]

  of the fact question is what content [TS]

  users do they cannot do on other social [TS]

  networks like what does the centralized [TS]

  by you and so 10 users can take their [TS]

  relationships the users they follow on [TS]

  the user's you follow them and their [TS]

  content with them 10 lets them control [TS]

  their data decide who sees it and decide [TS]

  how they can use it 10 to distribute a [TS]

  protocol so if they don't like a nap or [TS]

  service they can change providers or [TS]

  write their own I mean write their own [TS]

  obviously no one's going to do that or [TS]

  almost no one but you own your content [TS]

  you own your relationships you don't [TS]

  have to beg like Twitter to let you [TS]

  extract your list of followings or [TS]

  followers or let them all please Twitter [TS]

  I want to download all my tweets or [TS]

  secretly scrape them from your website [TS]

  you own all your content no matter where [TS]

  you go and you can bring all that stuff [TS]

  with you like when you change services [TS]

  you don't lose like when you change from [TS]

  hotmail to gmail or your mail that was [TS]

  on hotmail doesn't go over to gmail with [TS]

  you unless you like manually forwarded [TS]

  to do some hack that someone else [TS]

  doesn't mean most people don't know how [TS]

  to do intent it's built into the thing [TS]

  you take your stuff with you no matter [TS]

  where you go um there's some it's more [TS]

  geeky stuff you don't have to tell [TS]

  anyone about your tent service you can [TS]

  run a tent server as a tor hidden server [TS]

  making it even harder for anyone to [TS]

  silence the voices online or track them [TS]

  down so you know like email like you can [TS]

  have an anonymous impossible to track [TS]

  email account that you jump around and [TS]

  you can have a tent server that's like [TS]

  totally hidden from the world I guess [TS]

  this would be like useful for people [TS]

  under oppressive government regimes to [TS]

  have a decentralized way to communicate [TS]

  in an encrypted hidden manner all that [TS]

  stuff so what about Federation then this [TS]

  is the definition of Federation I think [TS]

  holds from users from the fact from [TS]

  Wikipedia Federation is multiple [TS]

  computing and our network providers [TS]

  agreeing on standards of operation in a [TS]

  collective fashion this term may be used [TS]

  when describing interoperation of two [TS]

  distinct formally disconnected [TS]

  telecommunicate communication networks [TS]

  that have different internal structures [TS]

  this term may also be used when groups [TS]

  attempt delegate collective authority of [TS]

  development to prevent fragmentation so [TS]

  this is like Federation is if you have [TS]

  multiple services that are totally [TS]

  different on the inside but they talk to [TS]

  each other through in a common protocol [TS]

  on the outside let's see what else they [TS]

  have about federated things here see [TS]

  private because private messages and [TS]

  other important features [TS]

  are beyond the scope most federated [TS]

  protocols user cannot send private [TS]

  messages to users of other social [TS]

  service providers so because they're [TS]

  different on the internal side it's [TS]

  difficult to private message from one to [TS]

  the other in a actually private way [TS]

  Federation is like decentralized service [TS]

  but like what seems like with larger [TS]

  with larger chunks like you can imagine [TS]

  a federated system where twitter is one [TS]

  member and at the end is another and [TS]

  they agree to talk to each other through [TS]

  a central thing but internally Twitter [TS]

  and app done that are totally different [TS]

  than their protocols are totally [TS]

  different and their feature sets are [TS]

  totally different they just agree on [TS]

  this common protocol that's you know a [TS]

  lowest common denominator between them [TS]

  ah you don't look here's a note to [TS]

  myself a note a note from you to you [TS]

  they said from the future self from the [TS]

  past self oh all right so here's me [TS]

  trying to clarify the distinction [TS]

  between central decentralized and [TS]

  federated so it's mostly one of [TS]

  evolutionary origins two systems created [TS]

  independently with different differing [TS]

  internals that are made to work together [TS]

  through a third system that's that's [TS]

  Federation right but if two systems are [TS]

  created from the start based on a single [TS]

  standard that's decentralization so tent [TS]

  is decentralized because everyone is [TS]

  participating the tent protocol and I [TS]

  seen the protocol will evolve and blah [TS]

  blah blah that's decentralized federated [TS]

  is if tent and app.net decide to [TS]

  cooperate with each other because they [TS]

  evolve totally separately they're [TS]

  totally different internally but maybe [TS]

  they also want to talk to each other and [TS]

  it seems to me the private messaging can [TS]

  work in a federated system but it's of [TS]

  course it's a lot easier when they're [TS]

  all you know when everyone's working off [TS]

  the tent protocol and don't have to [TS]

  worry about internal differences here's [TS]

  a fat guy t'me added to the 10-track can [TS]

  i donate to tent i'm sure you're not [TS]

  looking my notes and i'm not sure if you [TS]

  looked at the fact but what do you think [TS]

  the answer to that question is hmmm now [TS]

  i'm not looking at your notes that's the [TS]

  fact can i donate to tent what's the [TS]

  answer did I wake you I'm going to say [TS]

  no it says tent needs you not your money [TS]

  right all right this this is a pretty [TS]

  stark contrast to act that net where the [TS]

  entire point of the service is we want [TS]

  to create a financially sustainable [TS]

  system where all the incentives are [TS]

  aligned you know a reaction to Twitter [TS]

  which doesn't take money from its users [TS]

  takes monies from it [TS]

  advertisers or wherever the heck they're [TS]

  getting in sells its users 10 says we do [TS]

  not want your money we want you and that [TS]

  makes sense from the perspective of [TS]

  protocol like they're not trying to [TS]

  start a company like it's decentralized [TS]

  they're not trying to start Facebook or [TS]

  Twitter that would be a centralized [TS]

  service what they want is for people to [TS]

  use their protocol in the same way that [TS]

  if you were trying to if you were the [TS]

  creator of smtp and pop and you weren't [TS]

  like the internet engineering task force [TS]

  or whatever and if you're just some dude [TS]

  and you're like boy we could all send [TS]

  messages to each other electronically if [TS]

  we all just agreed on this protocol you [TS]

  don't want someone to give you money or [TS]

  to sign up for your service you want [TS]

  everyone to use your protocol right [TS]

  clients right servers right and so here [TS]

  the things they offer you know in lieu [TS]

  of you giving money how about starting [TS]

  your own tent server obviously you know [TS]

  become a member of the system we've [TS]

  published a protocol I think they [TS]

  publish some code some server code but [TS]

  you can just write your own you know [TS]

  follow the protocol and start your own [TS]

  tent server tell your friends about it [TS]

  suggests a feature or a change like if [TS]

  you're into the protocol look at the [TS]

  protocols I'll used to have this feature [TS]

  of that feature build a client [TS]

  application that talk to the servers or [TS]

  ask ask people who use popular [TS]

  applications you like boy I'd like for [TS]

  you to add tent support like ask Marco [TS]

  hey can you add ten support Instapaper [TS]

  that's what they want you to do because [TS]

  they want this to be a protocol that [TS]

  everybody uses a complete open [TS]

  decentralized protocol and the way to [TS]

  get that sucede is to get everybody to [TS]

  use it not for a bunch of people to give [TS]

  this these people money because they're [TS]

  not starting a service they're not going [TS]

  to charge you money to use it it's a [TS]

  protocol not a service and this is [TS]

  really weird for people to get their [TS]

  heads around and it's kind of [TS]

  unprecedented in modern internet history [TS]

  in in ancient internet history this is [TS]

  the way everything worked everything was [TS]

  like an open protocol and you vote on it [TS]

  and have rfcs and you know debate about [TS]

  it and then people go and implement it [TS]

  and if you can get people to write [TS]

  implementations your protocol succeeds [TS]

  and if you couldn't get anyone to our [TS]

  implementations it doesn't but in the [TS]

  modern world people like I'm going to [TS]

  start a company I'm going to start [TS]

  instagram and it's gonna be a company [TS]

  and even though i don't take any money [TS]

  like it is not an open protocol for [TS]

  photo sharing that we just want people [TS]

  to implement its service I'm gonna start [TS]

  Facebook and I may have an API and stuff [TS]

  like Eric Twitter and they have an API [TS]

  but we control that API we could turn [TS]

  the non off anytime we want you know [TS]

  the final item I hair is where did tend [TS]

  to come from tent began as a [TS]

  conversation between names that I'm [TS]

  going to mangle and I'm sorry Jonathan [TS]

  rutenberg Daniel ciders Jessie Stewart [TS]

  and Lucas oh my goodness Lucas w ojciec [TS]

  h 0 WS ki I'm not even going to try [TS]

  don't even yeah it was inspired by [TS]

  Harper texts an ado smtp yeah there you [TS]

  go and the world wide web to be and [TS]

  distributed peer-to-peer services okay [TS]

  so I'm very interested in tent from a [TS]

  nerd perspective but i also have doubts [TS]

  from a nerd perspective and in light of [TS]

  reason at the net activity it seems like [TS]

  they their work cut out for them so when [TS]

  I was making these notes I think on past [TS]

  shows I kept mentioning Tenten we never [TS]

  actually got to the topic and one of the [TS]

  people involved Daniel cider so I just [TS]

  read off in that previous thing [TS]

  responded by email to a bunch of my [TS]

  questions he is one of the architects [TS]

  and core contributors to tent so here [TS]

  are what I think the biggest issues with [TS]

  tent and other decentralized services [TS]

  when it comes to doing something like [TS]

  Twitter does this is the section I had [TS]

  to trim out about orders of magnitude [TS]

  maybe we'll get back to it but the part [TS]

  that makes Twitter interesting unique [TS]

  with are a couple parts one is the [TS]

  asymmetrical follow you know friend [TS]

  thing where you can follow people and [TS]

  they don't have to follow you that's [TS]

  different than like the symmetrical [TS]

  relationship and Facebook friends like [TS]

  that was clearly an important point in [TS]

  making Twitter attractive and successful [TS]

  right second part is really limited [TS]

  length that also made Twitter unique and [TS]

  contributed to its success at the third [TS]

  part though and it's probably like equal [TS]

  parts these three things the third part [TS]

  though is that Twitter is real time and [TS]

  not hard real-time like anyone knows our [TS]

  real real-time computing is it's not [TS]

  hard real-time there you know it's but [TS]

  it's real time in quotes I guess that [TS]

  just means like lower latency than other [TS]

  similar protocols that you may be [TS]

  familiar with so for example email has [TS]

  very different expectations about [TS]

  latency if you send an email you don't [TS]

  expect the recipient to see it like [TS]

  within a handful of seconds maybe they [TS]

  will and in many many cases they will [TS]

  see it but if they don't see it for two [TS]

  minutes you're not like oh my god email [TS]

  is broken they don't see it for five [TS]

  minutes you might [TS]

  cranky but you don't have the [TS]

  expectation for it to be like you hit [TS]

  send the up they can see it right that [TS]

  is if they're looking through email at [TS]

  all instant message is real time I send [TS]

  you an IM and I return I have [TS]

  expectation that you see those words on [TS]

  the screen not a minute from now like [TS]

  you see them pretty much now right but [TS]

  instant message is not a broadcast media [TS]

  I'm sending to you you're sending to me [TS]

  and you can have group chats but it's [TS]

  not like you know where you're sending [TS]

  up to thousands of people who are [TS]

  interested in what you have to say on IM [TS]

  right and the web webs web sites mostly [TS]

  are require polling well you have to [TS]

  like you know pull from them and get the [TS]

  new information other modern web [TS]

  protocols like you know Ajax and comet [TS]

  where WebSockets where you keep a [TS]

  connection open and keep going through [TS]

  that but for the most part web is you [TS]

  know HTTP stateless on-demand type of [TS]

  thing and you have to be looking at it [TS]

  so if I update my website in theory [TS]

  everyone should see that update [TS]

  instantaneously but in practice not [TS]

  everyone is looking at my website so [TS]

  we'll take them all why look at like [TS]

  Apple put up the Steve Jobs tribute [TS]

  video anyone could see that once it came [TS]

  up plus or minus see the end caching but [TS]

  the order in which people did see it was [TS]

  distributed over you know some bell [TS]

  curve of people hitting the site right [TS]

  so there's an article by Dan Wineman not [TS]

  dave winer it's called that is a whole [TS]

  different a whole different person it is [TS]

  this kids are confusing apparently is a [TS]

  federated Twitter even possible this is [TS]

  in the show notes right his well by the [TS]

  way we haven't said the show notes URL [TS]

  okay this is my fault sorry about that [TS]

  five by five TV / hypercritical sash 88 [TS]

  go there and all of the links and [TS]

  everything that John has created and [TS]

  saved and organized are awaiting you [TS]

  there yes and uh Dan womens website I [TS]

  host names is venomous porridge calm so [TS]

  thumbs up on that one dan good job [TS]

  getting venomous porridge I can't [TS]

  believe that wasn't taken I know [TS]

  poisonous porridge obviously taking but [TS]

  he got the venomous one alright so he [TS]

  lists a bunch of constraints that people [TS]

  come to expect on what he calls their [TS]

  social timelines and what I've got here [TS]

  are Daniel ciders responses to these [TS]

  concerns [TS]

  and some my own obviously immediacy if a [TS]

  post is made by someone fault who I [TS]

  follow I can see it in my timeline right [TS]

  away or close enough to ride away they [TS]

  don't even notice so what daniel says [TS]

  about immediacy is he says we expect [TS]

  opposed to show up and uses you know [TS]

  again tenten Daniel sliders from 10 [TS]

  thought I oh and the 10th protocol we [TS]

  expect post to show up and other users [TS]

  timelines quickly should be around for [TS]

  HTTP requests each of which can be [TS]

  around a hundred milliseconds making the [TS]

  total trip under one second right so it [TS]

  when someone makes a post you should see [TS]

  it in less than a second which is [TS]

  definitely within the realm of what we [TS]

  are considering real time and when it [TS]

  comes to you know things like Twitter [TS]

  and points that on a shared hosting [TS]

  provider this is much shorter because [TS]

  there's never any extra syndication hubs [TS]

  or other apparatus slow down the [TS]

  publishing process like if you and [TS]

  someone else are both on the same tent [TS]

  server it doesn't have to you know go [TS]

  through an HTTP you it's all happening [TS]

  in the same data store so that's much [TS]

  faster and it says because it's [TS]

  decentralized periods of extreme load [TS]

  and larger ecosystems don't necessarily [TS]

  make communications sluggard sluggish [TS]

  for any specific group of users this is [TS]

  the advantage of it being decentralized [TS]

  and same thing with email if hotmail [TS]

  goes down or a super slow you don't care [TS]

  unless you're receiving email from [TS]

  people at hotmail are sending email to [TS]

  people at hotmail obviously if everyone [TS]

  had their own tent server you wouldn't [TS]

  care if someone's server caught flames [TS]

  or was slowed today unless you are a [TS]

  relationship with them that's the most [TS]

  granular one there's currently a service [TS]

  called tent is made by the 10th I Oh [TS]

  guys which is a tensor ER that they run [TS]

  mostly it's kind of like a [TS]

  proof-of-concept type of thing like [TS]

  here's what it would look like and stuff [TS]

  like that uh and currently most of the [TS]

  people who are on tent are on tent that [TS]

  is I know many of them are like I should [TS]

  get my own host name you know right John [TS]

  siracusa calm yeah and move my identity [TS]

  to John's Eric easy 2.com run my own [TS]

  tent server and that's part of the [TS]

  protocol but they haven't done it yet [TS]

  but the most of the viewable said this [TS]

  haven't done it so there are a lot of [TS]

  people on 10 thought is I am Siracusa [TS]

  10th is everyone gets like your username [TS]

  tent that is if I'm communicating with [TS]

  another tent that is user that's much [TS]

  faster than sending a bunch of HTTP [TS]

  requests because they're there and this [TS]

  is almost kind of like it's not [TS]

  federated really because all [TS]

  same protocol but the granularity of [TS]

  these units everyone doesn't have to run [TS]

  their own server because everybody won't [TS]

  run their own server it's just like [TS]

  email I'm when I send email to my wife [TS]

  on gmail I'm assuming he gets to her [TS]

  much faster than it would if she was on [TS]

  hotmail this doesn't have to go anywhere [TS]

  really it just travels within Google's [TS]

  data centers and their services so in [TS]

  the same way that tons of people use [TS]

  gmail tons of people use hotmail tons of [TS]

  people use yahoo and a bunch of people [TS]

  run their own email servers or they [TS]

  contract out to a commercial company [TS]

  that runs the email service rather than [TS]

  like in that that exam ratio of how many [TS]

  people are on each service and how its [TS]

  distributed and how many go run their [TS]

  own servers those ratios are not baked [TS]

  into the protocol people say a tense [TS]

  never going to succeed because no one [TS]

  wants to run their own server that's [TS]

  right no one wants to run their own [TS]

  email story either and no but it's no [TS]

  one does most people go to a service [TS]

  provider they move between services [TS]

  writers or whatever so I don't know what [TS]

  the breakdown assuming tent was [TS]

  successful would be of people all piled [TS]

  onto one server but the whole point is [TS]

  it doesn't matter if like ninety percent [TS]

  of the people are on you know tent that [TS]

  is if tent that is if people run tempt a [TS]

  test you know if their service is slow [TS]

  or they start doing things that we don't [TS]

  like or running ads we leave and go [TS]

  someplace else right you can't do that [TS]

  so much with Twitter because like oh I [TS]

  don't get to take my followers with me [TS]

  and they're not gonna see you know if I [TS]

  move the appt net and I start posting [TS]

  all my stuff and apt on that instead of [TS]

  Twitter all the people who follow me on [TS]

  Twitter aren't going to see my updates [TS]

  but if I leave gmail and go to someplace [TS]

  else I can still send email to anybody [TS]

  you know so it's I think the backlash [TS]

  against the centralized services is like [TS]

  a misunderstanding of decentralized [TS]

  doesn't mean it's gonna be a success but [TS]

  it does mean that like ten for ten to [TS]

  succeed everyone doesn't have to run [TS]

  their own server like a lot of people [TS]

  said I looked at it but then I saw [TS]

  something but running my own server and [TS]

  I was like I'll forget that hey that's [TS]

  not going to succeed it be that's not [TS]

  what I want to do well that's true of [TS]

  email to you don't want to run your an [TS]

  email server probably but email succeeds [TS]

  and you don't have to do that if you [TS]

  don't want it chronology post always [TS]

  appear in order by time posted I don't [TS]

  really understand this objection you can [TS]

  read the Dan alignment article but it's [TS]

  like from a programmers perspective you [TS]

  just sort them by time like it yeah yeah [TS]

  they come in it's just like email [TS]

  sometimes you get an email and there's [TS]

  two things about emails his day received [TS]

  and date sent and you could sort by both [TS]

  of them in your client if you sort by [TS]

  date received ya an email someone sent [TS]

  later may come after [TS]

  someone sent you know they may come out [TS]

  out of order quote unquote but if you [TS]

  sort by date sent it will insert one [TS]

  into the middle and the chronology thing [TS]

  is like I don't want I don't want things [TS]

  to be all weird and out of order and [TS]

  come in strange places and so dance [TS]

  lattice is the same thing it's like [TS]

  emails emails don't show up in your [TS]

  inbox out of water there are two [TS]

  timestamps that you know the center [TS]

  received and you just sort so I see this [TS]

  as a non-issue this is the same thing in [TS]

  twitter by the way sometimes tweets will [TS]

  come in like replies or whatever and get [TS]

  mixed into the timeline because my [TS]

  client made a request for my my timeline [TS]

  stream and then made a later requester [TS]

  my replies and it turns out one of those [TS]

  replies happen before you know the thing [TS]

  in my timeline it goes up to the client [TS]

  to sort them at once motto monotonicity [TS]

  I think I got that one right timelines [TS]

  grow only from the top older posts are [TS]

  never retro actively inserted that's up [TS]

  to the client you can retro actively [TS]

  insert and preserve the time the [TS]

  creation time or you can just put them [TS]

  on top and use receive time this doesn't [TS]

  really change from centralized [TS]

  decentralized it you know unless you [TS]

  believe that a centralized service will [TS]

  always give you a single stream of [TS]

  content but they don't you sometimes you [TS]

  make one request for your replies and [TS]

  one request for your stream and you have [TS]

  to interleave them or not and relieve [TS]

  them if you don't use unified um I think [TS]

  that was all of the nose at all [TS]

  concerned concerns in in in that [TS]

  particular article but here's here's [TS]

  here's one of my own that I got some [TS]

  feedback on alright so for popular [TS]

  people running even if you run your own [TS]

  server there are some challenges there [TS]

  right so to maintain this real-time [TS]

  thing which I really believe is a key [TS]

  key feature of Twitter as important as [TS]

  having short messages in the [TS]

  asymmetrical follow thing has to be real [TS]

  time because there's an expectation that [TS]

  have um sitting there watching TV show [TS]

  and I make a snarky comment everyone who [TS]

  follows me sees that snarky comment not [TS]

  five minutes from now not tomorrow yeah [TS]

  right right then that's what makes [TS]

  Twitter different I don't send out an [TS]

  email to everyone go on oh that was a [TS]

  snarky comment about the show than I [TS]

  watch it cuz like they'll check their [TS]

  email later and they'll see it and it's [TS]

  like what do you mean but like Twitter [TS]

  is real time that is I'm not gonna say [TS]

  it's the most important feature Twitter [TS]

  but it's [TS]

  got to be top three like it's one third [TS]

  of what makes it important so you you [TS]

  have to you can't just say oh well it's [TS]

  good enough it's within like a minute or [TS]

  two minutes like it's got to be i [TS]

  thought i'm using is under 30 seconds [TS]

  because i think it was a 30 second lag [TS]

  you don't notice it but once you start [TS]

  going over that and this really changes [TS]

  the nature of twitter this is my sidebar [TS]

  about orders of magnitude and changing [TS]

  the nature of things maybe we'll say [TS]

  that for another show so if you have a [TS]

  hundred thousand Paulo errs and you say [TS]

  something in the tenth protocol you and [TS]

  I have to send a hundred thousand [TS]

  requests all the people who follow you [TS]

  not request but you have to tell them [TS]

  you have to send your thing to them [TS]

  right ah and if you want to do that in [TS]

  30 seconds or less you have to send 3333 [TS]

  responses per second and anyone who's [TS]

  done web development knows once you [TS]

  start getting to the thousands of [TS]

  responses for a second it's not hard but [TS]

  like you start talking like performances [TS]

  then suddenly a concern you can't just [TS]

  at all any computers fast enough to do [TS]

  that it's no I have no problem sending [TS]

  three thousand responses a second from [TS]

  any computer entire world depending on [TS]

  the nature of the responses you may like [TS]

  if you're on shared hosting and there's [TS]

  latency and you know have enough threads [TS]

  or processes available know how many [TS]

  sockets can you open it once you're [TS]

  starting to get a little scary say you [TS]

  have four million followers right now [TS]

  you're getting two semi famous people [TS]

  and you wanna you want to say something [TS]

  and then you want them all to see in 30 [TS]

  seconds now you have to send 130 3333 [TS]

  responses per second or post requests [TS]

  per second now we're getting into some [TS]

  serious like all right that's not one [TS]

  machine anymore that's that's some [TS]

  serious hardware there now Daniel [TS]

  Sturridge responses that normal people [TS]

  in quotes on Twitter have about 27 [TS]

  followers as of 2011 and he references a [TS]

  core a question about that I put in the [TS]

  show notes so for normal people this is [TS]

  not a concern because you want to send [TS]

  up you know I send a message I send it [TS]

  out to 27 people's tenth servers no [TS]

  problem like that's you can do that [TS]

  within 30 seconds easily right and so [TS]

  those you know normal people will be [TS]

  fine people likely justin bieber and [TS]

  lady gaga are gonna need more serious [TS]

  hosting solutions all right and daniel [TS]

  says that could absolutely be self [TS]

  hosted in the sense that their websites [TS]

  are self hosted right [TS]

  they have professional web presences and [TS]

  this would just be another component of [TS]

  the professional web presence because [TS]

  lady gagas website I'm sure gets tons of [TS]

  hits and they have to pay money to run [TS]

  that this would be the same deal so [TS]

  users with a highly skewed asymmetrical [TS]

  follow ratios will have a low base need [TS]

  but a huge burst need because one [TS]

  ladygaga says something I got to tell 30 [TS]

  million people now if you were designing [TS]

  that like you know I have to send out 30 [TS]

  million bits of information in 30 [TS]

  seconds that's not now we're talking not [TS]

  just serious money but like know how is [TS]

  involved here all right and this is very [TS]

  different than this current system where [TS]

  lady gaga gets a free Twitter account [TS]

  and just post and Twitter foots the [TS]

  entire bill I figure out how to get Lady [TS]

  Gaga's things out to everybody and it's [TS]

  kind of easier for Lady Gaga to do that [TS]

  on twitter because doesn't have to go [TS]

  anywhere I mean it does kind of but like [TS]

  it's inside the Twitter system now [TS]

  here's the thing about this type of [TS]

  scaling thing people think oh well when [TS]

  Lady Gaga makes that post it doesn't [TS]

  have to send it anywhere is just all [TS]

  inside Twitter they can all see it just [TS]

  making that work on a centralized [TS]

  service yeah as we've seen for the years [TS]

  of the fail yeah that's naughty this not [TS]

  easy like the int what the inside of [TS]

  Twitter looked like would make the head [TS]

  of someone who hasn't done service I'd [TS]

  web development spin do you like isn't [TS]

  it just like a bunch of servers and they [TS]

  like it's extremely complicated and very [TS]

  difficult to do and they had lots of [TS]

  difficulty doing it like that they did [TS]

  have difficulty because they're dunces [TS]

  they difficult because it's the hard [TS]

  thing to do and that's a centralized [TS]

  service right so decentralized is even [TS]

  harder um that one of the things daniel [TS]

  says is that this is kind of like the [TS]

  ideal theoretical solution for cloud [TS]

  computing because you would want to be [TS]

  done some sort of cloud thing where when [TS]

  you're not tweeting there's no big deal [TS]

  but when you want to make a tweak you [TS]

  would just use a tremendous number of [TS]

  virtual machines and do this giant [TS]

  scaling thing to send out your tweet and [TS]

  then it would scale back down oh but [TS]

  that's it's still a very different model [TS]

  than currently oh you know they just [TS]

  make a twitter account and they don't [TS]

  worry about the details right right [TS]

  follower discovery is another possible [TS]

  issue when it centralizes a lot easier [TS]

  to find people decentralize you can [TS]

  still kind of find people the same way I [TS]

  kind of did a nap net how do I find [TS]

  people on there you just kind of guess [TS]

  what their username is going to be or [TS]

  you look at someone who you follow and [TS]

  after that and see who they follow and [TS]

  find you know oh [TS]

  this friend is following these friends [TS]

  and eventually you find all the people [TS]

  but when it's decentralized is not a [TS]

  single place to search for people and [TS]

  speaking of search how do i do something [TS]

  like can I see a real-time feed you know [TS]

  like 30 second lags or so of all of the [TS]

  messages on tent that contain a [TS]

  particular term across all users of the [TS]

  system like on Twitter you can you know [TS]

  do a search and have like a be a real [TS]

  time stream of people who are at [TS]

  mentioning you people who are mentioned [TS]

  your product name you know or a hashtag [TS]

  or whatever again even that's hard to do [TS]

  in a centralized system in a [TS]

  decentralized how do you do that how do [TS]

  you even find all the people and ask [TS]

  them that you're interested in this uh [TS]

  so what Daniel said is that tempt is [TS]

  basically like the web you know how do i [TS]

  do a search across the entire web well [TS]

  Google spiders the whole web yeah within [TS]

  the massive array machines and bonds [TS]

  with up so subsequently 24 hours a day [TS]

  seven days a week yeah and like Google's [TS]

  been working for years to get that lower [TS]

  like so if I make a web page right now [TS]

  and I type some string in there that I [TS]

  know is like you know totally made-up [TS]

  it's not a word it's going to be on one [TS]

  place and then I just start doing google [TS]

  search and see how long will it take for [TS]

  google to discover that i wrote that [TS]

  string on that webpage the answer [TS]

  currently is greater than 30 seconds [TS]

  maybe if you have extremely popular site [TS]

  Google spidering you every 30 seconds [TS]

  but most people known if I just put [TS]

  something on my blog is going to take [TS]

  Google a while to pick that up so Google [TS]

  a solution like Google can't do [TS]

  real-time search of new content on the [TS]

  web and couldn't do real-time search of [TS]

  tent now i'm not sure if people have [TS]

  noticed this but at various times i [TS]

  think this is still true google has a [TS]

  real-time search for Twitter if I tweet [TS]

  something I can go to Google very [TS]

  quickly and do a search and find my [TS]

  tweet how long like what do you mean [TS]

  very I think it's like you know 10 [TS]

  minutes less than 30 seconds oh really [TS]

  yeah Wow the reason that I mean I've [TS]

  never tested it right so I but I've just [TS]

  always been amazed that I google or [TS]

  something I'm like I just made that [TS]

  tweet like earlier today and there it is [TS]

  like wow that's fast and the reason that [TS]

  works at my understanding of this is [TS]

  that google is the recipient of the [TS]

  Twitter fire hose as they call it google [TS]

  gets a sort of backdoored just for you [TS]

  real-time feed of every single tweet [TS]

  made on twitter hmm [TS]

  winner can provide that because every [TS]

  single tweet made to Twitter goes in [TS]

  goes through Twitter right no as they [TS]

  happen and they just they this fire hose [TS]

  is available to a couple people and so [TS]

  as tweets happen they're instantly fed [TS]

  to Google Google instantly indexes them [TS]

  and they show up right but tent can't [TS]

  provide that feed to Google tent can't [TS]

  say I'll here you go Google here's a [TS]

  firehose feed of every single thing it's [TS]

  like saying can you do that for email [TS]

  can you send me a feed of every single [TS]

  email sent by every person as they send [TS]

  it in the entire world of course you can [TS]

  like though their privacy concerns aside [TS]

  like that's just not possible that you [TS]

  can't you can't give Google a real-time [TS]

  feed of every email Google can see every [TS]

  email sent through gmail but they can't [TS]

  see what sent through hotmail or AOL [TS]

  Mail irregular services or self post of [TS]

  things and it's the same thing with tent [TS]

  there is no way to get a unified [TS]

  real-time feed because it's a [TS]

  decentralized service ah so you're back [TS]

  to the problem of like how do you do [TS]

  real-time search well you'd have to [TS]

  either crawl the whole system or monitor [TS]

  the whole system and the way you could [TS]

  do the monitor the whole system is you [TS]

  could you know first you discover every [TS]

  single tent server that's out there and [TS]

  then you follow the status updates of [TS]

  each one obviously you can't see their [TS]

  private ones right you know I don't know [TS]

  if Twitter since the probably want to [TS]

  google I probably don't want to know but [TS]

  you would become a follower of every [TS]

  single tent user and what that would [TS]

  mean is that every time a tent user [TS]

  makes a post it would say oh this google [TS]

  bot thing is following me uh i need this [TS]

  in this update to them as well and then [TS]

  google would have every single tent [TS]

  update made in the entire world also [TS]

  sent to it so then google becomes the [TS]

  decentralized server well they follow [TS]

  everybody right but what that that [TS]

  doesn't mean a single stream like the [TS]

  fire hose that means like so said how [TS]

  many people do you think are tweeting [TS]

  right now like a one two three how many [TS]

  tweets just happened probably like a mil [TS]

  yeah million well if they're listening [TS]

  to this show it's a million many [TS]

  millions right what that would mean if [TS]

  you were Google is what they see is just [TS]

  a million new entries come through the [TS]

  stream that listening on in the tent [TS]

  situation they see a million new socket [TS]

  connections each of which tells them [TS]

  information about one tweet I mean if [TS]

  anyone can handle a type of scale school [TS]

  so I'm not saying it's impossible to do [TS]

  real-time search but it's a very [TS]

  different solution than been dealing [TS]

  with the fire hose ah and it does [TS]

  require unkind of the good graces of all [TS]

  the tent services [TS]

  they might say you know what I'm you're [TS]

  not allowed to follow you Gogol like [TS]

  you've blocked google and that would [TS]

  make it so your stuff as an indexed [TS]

  which i think is actually a feature of [TS]

  the system because if you don't want [TS]

  your tweets indexed by google i guess [TS]

  you can do protected updates and stuff [TS]

  but really you're at the whim of twitter [TS]

  and cooperated like you don't control [TS]

  that but if you ran your own tent server [TS]

  or you were on a tent server owned by [TS]

  somebody who agree with your philosophy [TS]

  you could block them right yeah so the [TS]

  short answer the search is basically you [TS]

  need a search engine and it would not be [TS]

  easy to build but it seems like it is [TS]

  possible what's the next one here [TS]

  following your tent user yeah that the [TS]

  bottom line from daniel is it [TS]

  distributed definitely make search [TS]

  harder than centralized no doubt about [TS]

  it but i have been convinced that it [TS]

  actually is possible if the service [TS]

  became popular on the final bit is [TS]

  streaming because the tent thing is like [TS]

  you make a post and then it sends HTTP [TS]

  POST request using this protocol to all [TS]

  the people who are following you right [TS]

  but streaming protocols where you open a [TS]

  socket and you're just like listening [TS]

  and any time a new stuff comes you see [TS]

  it immediately you don't it's not [TS]

  polling you're not saying is there new [TS]

  content is the new content and it's not [TS]

  pushed like I have a server that's [TS]

  sitting there and then as soon as [TS]

  someone tweets they push it to me I [TS]

  respond to it and then i showed in my [TS]

  data stores and stuff like that so he [TS]

  says streaming is coming soon that poses [TS]

  all sorts of other problems because if [TS]

  you have 30 million followers if they're [TS]

  all if they're all streaming to you that [TS]

  means you have 30 million open sockets [TS]

  again anyone who's done any service i [TS]

  developed and those 30 million open [TS]

  sockets is not probably a tenable [TS]

  solution are really not a situation you [TS]

  probably want to be in and it certainly [TS]

  means that you're not serving this from [TS]

  a single machine like there are all [TS]

  sorts of things bad things that happen [TS]

  when you have you know Colonel resources [TS]

  are limited and connections break and [TS]

  have to be remade and so streaming is [TS]

  something that you don't necessarily [TS]

  have to support ah I was trying to get [TS]

  more details in this but it's like if [TS]

  you don't support streaming you're still [TS]

  part of the 10 to eco system but if you [TS]

  would like to support streaming you can [TS]

  this is all speculative because this [TS]

  product the string pro whole isn't out [TS]

  but it shows that they can't they do [TS]

  plan to be able to do streaming and I [TS]

  think in the common case it will work [TS]

  where you be able to get up you know you [TS]

  follow hundred people find have 100 open [TS]

  sockets and see their stuff in real time [TS]

  so you don't have the pole you don't [TS]

  have to bring up your HTTP connection [TS]

  tear down bring it up tear down right [TS]

  then you also mention that tent tent d [TS]

  their current demon implements [TS]

  exponential back-off or retries in the [TS]

  event that follower server is [TS]

  unavailable just like emails like if you [TS]

  can't send an email it's not responding [TS]

  it'll just keep trying so if your tent [TS]

  server is down you don't miss your [TS]

  updates from from someone else it really [TS]

  does seem like this is a neat system but [TS]

  maybe this is just something that people [TS]

  will use internally like you were kind [TS]

  of saying and I can't tell what they're [TS]

  what the success is going to be so [TS]

  here's here's a note from Paula Dodd of [TS]

  tap BOTS fame I would say what his role [TS]

  is it hot pots but I don't know he's the [TS]

  top BOTS guy maybe he writes all their [TS]

  applications himself with a stick in the [TS]

  dirt or maybe he's just the CEO of the [TS]

  company I don't know but anyway Paulin [TS]

  Dodd of tap pots Fame says he checked [TS]

  out the tent API and it's listed his [TS]

  version 0.1 and he agrees with that now [TS]

  this there's no favoriting there's no [TS]

  reposts the post dimensions and direct [TS]

  messages all intermingled in a single [TS]

  stream which I actually kind of like but [TS]

  so this is their protocol and there you [TS]

  couldn't call their server so their [TS]

  protocol is not quite as mature as out [TS]

  then that then that is the head of them [TS]

  the question is does it matter they say [TS]

  they have an awesome protocol and we [TS]

  think it's good and we like the idea of [TS]

  decentralized how do they get traction [TS]

  because that that net has a plan like [TS]

  the Cylons right not only they really [TS]

  have a plan charge people money for the [TS]

  service use that money to pay to make [TS]

  the service good for the people who are [TS]

  paying you money and give a little bit [TS]

  of it to the client developers that's it [TS]

  like that may not be a business model [TS]

  that ever gets them to be big and [TS]

  massive and famous but it's a business [TS]

  model right like you can it's very easy [TS]

  to understand but at the net is not [TS]

  decentralized so what is tense thing [TS]

  they don't want your money they don't [TS]

  necessarily want like the entire world [TS]

  to sign up on 10th is I think what [TS]

  they'd like to see is [TS]

  like what happened with the email you [TS]

  know hotmail comes along and they make a [TS]

  web-based email and it talks the email [TS]

  protocols and then Google decides to [TS]

  make one and some people join hotmail [TS]

  and some people on google and yahoo has [TS]

  a wet like and all those things don't [TS]

  make the people who invented pop and [TS]

  smtp famous or rich or anything like [TS]

  that but it does make a system with a [TS]

  decentralized protocol that we all [TS]

  participated in that has all the [TS]

  advantage of a decentralized system [TS]

  right I think that's their success [TS]

  scenario is they don't expect to get I [TS]

  guess probably rich or famous off of [TS]

  this it's not a money grab it's they're [TS]

  not trying to be the next Facebook [TS]

  they're not even trying to be the next [TS]

  app that net they want their to exist a [TS]

  decentralized protocol for these type of [TS]

  things i'm sure people going to send [TS]

  feedback like what about statusnet and [TS]

  diaspora and all these other things that [TS]

  existed before yes there have been [TS]

  several other attempts at this and i [TS]

  have to confess that i have not paid [TS]

  that much attention to the previous ones [TS]

  i don't know if that's because the you [TS]

  know perfect storm of twitter crankiness [TS]

  that's happening lately as not you know [TS]

  that's why we haven't pay attention [TS]

  because we were all loving Twitter and [TS]

  it's like oh yeah this is doing some [TS]

  open source thing but I'm not paying [TS]

  attention and now suddenly when app that [TS]

  comes along we're all cranky about [TS]

  Twitter we do pay attention and we do [TS]

  pay attention intent I don't know how [TS]

  tent compares to statusnet or diaspora [TS]

  or any other things that have been out [TS]

  there all i know is that tent is the one [TS]

  I'm currently paying attention to [TS]

  because of just the context that I'm in [TS]

  so it's not not a slight under those [TS]

  other services but uh I I think that [TS]

  tent has many challenges ahead of it [TS]

  related to how do you make a [TS]

  decentralized service work let's do [TS]

  zentai service like to work I believe it [TS]

  is possible but it's a very different [TS]

  type of situation than a centralized [TS]

  service very very different like [TS]

  presumably a nap dunnet say ladygaga [TS]

  comes to have net app that net has to [TS]

  have its business model such that for [TS]

  the fees of all the obscure subscribers [TS]

  add up to enough money to host lady gaga [TS]

  right like that's that's they have to [TS]

  balance their business that way they [TS]

  have to say our income has to equal the [TS]

  amount that we have to expend so if they [TS]

  have 20 million users each paying thirty [TS]

  dollars a month presumably they'll are [TS]

  thirty dollars a year thirty-six dollars [TS]

  a year presumably they will have enough [TS]

  money to put out a bunch of servers so [TS]

  that lady gaga can also pay thirty-six [TS]

  dollars a year and successfully talk to [TS]

  the you know millions of users who are [TS]

  app.net right uh but in the 10th thought [TS]

  I Oh thing like Lady Gaga like her [TS]

  website would be responsible for paying [TS]

  for her own server or paying someone [TS]

  who's like we host celebrities on our [TS]

  tent server and we have massive volume [TS]

  and come here you know what I mean like [TS]

  I can envision a world where tent is [TS]

  successful and exists everywhere but I [TS]

  don't know how you get from there to [TS]

  here and app that net I also think [TS]

  challenges ahead for them but it seems a [TS]

  little bit more clear to me but i think [TS]

  this these two guys doing this in the [TS]

  space is very interesting two very [TS]

  different approaches both of which i [TS]

  think are getting some traction now like [TS]

  the fact that that Paula Dodd was [TS]

  looking at UH tent you know he makes [TS]

  like that's a good sign like all right [TS]

  so we made this thing trap net which is [TS]

  like a port of our extremely popular [TS]

  Twitter cried could we do the same thing [TS]

  for tent that I oh and it seems like [TS]

  he's saying not quite yet kind of wait [TS]

  and see but they could also have their [TS]

  own net bought moment right where [TS]

  suddenly start people start paying [TS]

  attention to the tent um and I think [TS]

  finally wrapping up here the meta [TS]

  problem is do I want to check Twitter [TS]

  and app.net and tent that aisle like [TS]

  don't I want to just concentrate on one [TS]

  we all just want a winner right uh [TS]

  currently I'm checking three places and [TS]

  let me tell you it's not fun right I [TS]

  didn't I didn't leave Twitter wrapped on [TS]

  net I'm not leaving apt than that [TS]

  pretend that I oh I'm on all those [TS]

  places at the same time uh and app that [TS]

  net suddenly cranked up in volume so now [TS]

  it's like almost as activists Twitter [TS]

  during some periods if ten thought I [TS]

  also cranks up that level activity yeah [TS]

  I'm not gonna be happy yeah you're [TS]

  screwed like we want something to win [TS]

  here kind of like we would all be I [TS]

  think we would all just be happy with [TS]

  Twitter if they didn't do things that we [TS]

  didn't like you know they made the Nerds [TS]

  angry and so the nerds are doing this [TS]

  hose stuff and now the nerds are just [TS]

  torturing themselves by it getting [TS]

  involved in stand now I feel like Merlin [TS]

  with thistle what was this whole thing [TS]

  of like you know I don't want I don't [TS]

  want to know the service I don't want to [TS]

  look at another thing you guys just sort [TS]

  it out and tell me how it turns out [TS]

  despite the fact that he is an app that [TS]

  not but has never made any post I don't [TS]

  know if he's intent on it i'm gonna say [TS]

  no is it an exciting time and may you [TS]

  live in interesting times [TS]

  I think this is an interesting time if [TS]

  you're interested in real-time social [TS]

  networking protocols and services and [TS]

  I'm sure we will revisit these topics [TS]

  has these companies either implode or [TS]

  become wildly successful I think I think [TS]

  I'm I'm all out do you think that I mean [TS]

  this is pretty this is a good rant for [TS]

  you not really rant it's like well I [TS]

  mean you've been saving up for this it's [TS]

  confusing and interesting and by the way [TS]

  both of the people people involved [TS]

  intent and the people involved in abnett [TS]

  because I've like even just mentioned [TS]

  them or been talking about it they're [TS]

  trying to like you know they're emailing [TS]

  me and saying hey if you're going to [TS]

  talk about the stuff like let's you know [TS]

  let's talk i'm here at answer any [TS]

  questions you have like they're doing [TS]

  the evangelization to say we want to get [TS]

  the word out we want our services to be [TS]

  represented fairly if you have any [TS]

  questions about like they're doing all [TS]

  the right things so the fact that [TS]

  they're talking to me shows that you [TS]

  know it there maybe it's because they're [TS]

  not talking to the New York Times and [TS]

  Wall Street Journal or maybe as because [TS]

  they know that if you want to start with [TS]

  the Nerds maybe start with a nerd [TS]

  podcast but I appreciate their time and [TS]

  the feedback they've given and they have [TS]

  especially the tent guys have helped [TS]

  clarify many doubts and questions I had [TS]

  about their service and I think I'm kind [TS]

  of on the same page with all of them [TS]

  like I believe all their stories I [TS]

  believe there is success scenario for [TS]

  all of them but maybe not all the same [TS]

  time like maybe maybe one success kind [TS]

  of depends the other one not quite being [TS]

  successful or maybe maybe there's some [TS]

  sort of date on they can come to like [TS]

  what about a client that does apt on [TS]

  that end tent that I owe at the same [TS]

  time that can exist because neither of [TS]

  their terms of services are evil like [TS]

  twitter's you can't make a client that [TS]

  combines tweets with a bedpost with 10 [TS]

  posts Twitter Terms of Service forbid it [TS]

  so fine Twitter took its ball and went [TS]

  home whatever right but you can't make [TS]

  one that combines the other services so [TS]

  what if app net becomes another tent [TS]

  server I put a link in the show notes [TS]

  from Dalton a blog post that lists all [TS]

  the open protocols that that after that [TS]

  has already committed to supporting [TS]

  they're going to support I don't even [TS]

  know what these are all just read them [TS]

  exit if ities 3ms it's like streams with [TS]

  a dot before the M Adam and JSON feeds [TS]

  RSS feed [TS]

  pub sub hub exposing user identities to [TS]

  the web finger what else do we have [TS]

  commitment to coordinate between [TS]

  internal external parties to create and [TS]

  support open source lightweight clients [TS]

  as in as many flavors as we can Allah [TS]

  stripe I don't even know what that mean [TS]

  I know what stripe as though commit to [TS]

  enabling and supporting users in [TS]

  building inbound and outbound [TS]

  syndication to and from app.net so [TS]

  they're already committed to be open [TS]

  like they're not a walled garden they [TS]

  want to interoperate but the question is [TS]

  do we ever come up with a way where they [TS]

  you know is it like AOL mail like AOL [TS]

  mail was a thing and then sigh well AOL [TS]

  mail is going to be internet mail we [TS]

  have a gateway to the Internet and then [TS]

  eventually feels like okay look we're [TS]

  just all email right and your internal [TS]

  details go away maybe that's the success [TS]

  in there right when I think about these [TS]

  two services or two ideas competing I [TS]

  tend to think that the winning strategy [TS]

  frap that net is to do the apple thing [TS]

  and the apple thing is to pretend that [TS]

  tent doesn't exist and plow forward as [TS]

  fast as you can and making your service [TS]

  awesome and not to do the open source [TS]

  which is everybody stop everything let's [TS]

  figure out a way that apt on that and 10 [TS]

  thought I out can work together to make [TS]

  a good protocol for the good of everyone [TS]

  that will slow you down and when you [TS]

  know it sounds evil like this is why [TS]

  people think apples evil example would [TS]

  not do that Apple and say whoa we need [TS]

  to stop because someone else is doing [TS]

  some way summer google let's work [TS]

  together so we can make a single [TS]

  operating system that's a combination of [TS]

  Android and iOS no that's not what you [TS]

  know what buh-bye we're going ahead as [TS]

  fast as we can try and catch us google [TS]

  and you know that's so since app thought [TS]

  that is a little bit ahead i would [TS]

  imagine the the these steve jobs in [TS]

  honor of steve jobs death the steve jobs [TS]

  strategy for after that he would say uh [TS]

  keep making your product and service [TS]

  better as fast as you possibly can do [TS]

  not waste any time trying to [TS]

  interoperate with tent but the nerd [TS]

  answer is oh god guys come on let's do [TS]

  then let's do the good thing for [TS]

  everybody let's get this together and [TS]

  figure out what we're doing and just [TS]

  we're not we nerds are few relatively [TS]

  right let is not further fragment [TS]

  ourselves let us try to agree on a [TS]

  single standard and move forward and my [TS]

  counter example that would be the linux [TS]

  standards base or any other efforts to [TS]

  try to get all the people in the Linux [TS]

  community to move together in unison [TS]

  though [TS]

  not worked and have only made delayed [TS]

  innovation in the linux pace i think [TS]

  especially in you know the consumer [TS]

  lending space I feel the same way about [TS]

  this so I'm I'm hesitant to give advice [TS]

  to any of them because the device advice [TS]

  will be most successful is the worst for [TS]

  me as a user is also slightly evil but [TS]

  that seems like the current winning [TS]

  strategy and in the meantime I I'm [TS]

  checking status updates in three places [TS]

  all right I think I'm really don't feel [TS]

  good I feel tired I feel sick sorry not [TS]

  because of these topics because I have a [TS]

  cold okay so speaking of places to [TS]

  follow people you are on Twitter as [TS]

  siracusa SI RAC USA you're also on Alpha [TS]

  abnett Siracusa I'm damn Benjamin on [TS]

  Twitter Dan on Alpha and and that's it [TS]

  don't forget Syracuse it is I a man tent [TS]

  by the white tent has a free and paid [TS]

  think tent that is not the protocol but [TS]

  the service tent that is can give you an [TS]

  account for free and you can also pay [TS]

  some amount of money for writing again [TS]

  that doesn't mean that tint charges you [TS]

  money that I mean it's like gmail either [TS]

  charges your money or don't doesn't mean [TS]

  email charged with you mine anyway I'm [TS]

  on 10th at Syracuse attended is and if I [TS]

  move to a new tent URL you won't have to [TS]

  update it manually is in theory though [TS]

  all talk to each other and figure it out [TS]

  yeah and the show notes for this episode [TS]

  5 by 5 TV such hypercritical / 88 thanks [TS]

  very much to our sponsors who make this [TS]

  show possible if you would like to hear [TS]

  more episodes of the show check out our [TS]

  sponsors and you can also leave a review [TS]

  or rating for us in itunes go to itunes [TS]

  search for I / critical do your thing [TS]

  thanks everybody for tuning in I'm gonna [TS]

  1 John hope you feel better thanks [TS]

  [Music] [TS]