The Accidental Tech Podcast

212: Meatspace Windows


  not only to my kids not know how to use [TS]

  computers but they all because they [TS]

  don't know how to use computers they [TS]

  don't know how to fix things on [TS]

  computers like they don't even have [TS]

  they've never had to fix anything on a [TS]

  computer it was like how do you learn [TS]

  how to fix crap on computers like [TS]

  because when we were kids I Princeton [TS]

  know anything so that was known to ask [TS]

  and you had to just figure it out [TS]

  yourself yeah we kind of broke [TS]

  everything and figured out how to fix it [TS]

  that's basically how we how we figured [TS]

  this all happened my son had a problem [TS]

  recently where he was like dad big [TS]

  appear only types capital letters and so [TS]

  I came over and he was like in a Google [TS]

  document and he's like look capital [TS]

  letters and it's not caps lock because [TS]

  cap lock light on or off either way just [TS]

  produces capital letters right and he [TS]

  was that was it that was the extent of [TS]

  his debugging like he'd he knew catbox [TS]

  resisted and he had tried toggling it on [TS]

  and off and it confirmed it in one [TS]

  position lightest animal position a lot [TS]

  is off but either by tap will let us [TS]

  come up but that was it he was out of [TS]

  ideas hmm and that's not that's not good [TS]

  what was it like a stuck shift key so I [TS]

  tried another application which is the [TS]

  first thing you try is this just Google [TS]

  Docs or the browser is everywhere so [TS]

  open text edit sure enough only capital [TS]

  letters in TextEdit right so I'm like [TS]

  like the things you learned from a [TS]

  lifetime of debugging the things that [TS]

  could potentially solve this problem you [TS]

  know so log out right we go to log out [TS]

  or you know switch users to master [TS]

  troubleshooting step turn everything off [TS]

  generically Becca and the login screen i [TS]

  went to log into my account and when you [TS]

  see the little password thing you see [TS]

  the little arrow that tells you that [TS]

  thanks cap locks is on you know yep that [TS]

  puts me right and so basically it was [TS]

  like the computers our caps lock was on [TS]

  all the time it wasn't you could look at [TS]

  the keyboard and doesn't matter the [TS]

  light was on or off but the computer was [TS]

  totally convinced the cap locks on it [TS]

  off so i unplug the keyboard and plug [TS]

  back in and i fixed and my son said to [TS]

  me why how could unplugging the keyboard [TS]

  and plugging it back in fix it and I was [TS]

  like if you've ever fix anything [TS]

  computer this fixes a surprising number [TS]

  of thing log out and back in unplug and [TS]

  replug reboot turn everything off wait [TS]

  10 seconds unplug it from the wall wait [TS]

  10 seconds all these things have reasons [TS]

  behind them but like even if you don't [TS]

  know the reasons behind them eventually [TS]

  you learn by fixing things that [TS]

  sometimes you just have to do crap like [TS]

  that and the only way you learn that is [TS]

  by actually fixing problems in the real [TS]

  world without understanding why they fix [TS]

  you just like what [TS]

  I do to make this problem go away and [TS]

  once it works for you once it is in your [TS]

  bag of tricks of like just you know the [TS]

  general idea of start the thing over [TS]

  again unplug it and plug it back in [TS]

  disconnected and reconnected and my kids [TS]

  don't even have that they don't even [TS]

  have the basics that they don't have any [TS]

  understanding of that because they never [TS]

  had to fix anything themselves like [TS]

  nightmares of like them leaving the [TS]

  house and living on their own as an [TS]

  adult and having a job and calling me [TS]

  and saying cake my TV show I can't watch [TS]

  my TV show it's not working like cuz you [TS]

  know like Netflix is broken or something [TS]

  I feel like this this might be kind of [TS]

  how like like whenever anything breaks [TS]

  about our house usually you know if it's [TS]

  not that critical that it gets fixed you [TS]

  know like there isn't water pouring all [TS]

  over everything and we're not like [TS]

  installing a fire hazard outlet in the [TS]

  wall but you know I but if there's you [TS]

  know like some like you know we have to [TS]

  like hang something that's kind of heavy [TS]

  duty on the wall somewhere or we have to [TS]

  like fix something that's made of wood [TS]

  you know usually those tasks just [TS]

  accumulate until my father in law comes [TS]

  to visit he will basically just go [TS]

  around in the first days here and just [TS]

  like fix everything around the house [TS]

  that we've been putting off forever and [TS]

  I feel like maybe the way that he thinks [TS]

  about it or at least the way he should [TS]

  think about how we seem to be totally [TS]

  incapable of fixing these things [TS]

  ourselves might be the same way that you [TS]

  are thinking about like how can your son [TS]

  possibly not know how to troubleshoot [TS]

  these computer issues himself so I gotta [TS]

  show up at his house when he's an adult [TS]

  and it's like oh thank god you're here [TS]

  we haven't been able to watch TV and six [TS]

  months maybe we can't figure out why I'm [TS]

  gonna go up to television unplug it from [TS]

  the wall plug it back in and got a go [TS]

  that very well might be how this [TS]

  generation plays out my word I feel the [TS]

  same way though like I can't think of a [TS]

  specific example other than my fired [TS]

  hazard plug that isn't actually a fire [TS]

  hazard but they're there plenty of [TS]

  things that either my dad who was very [TS]

  electrically inclined or Aaron's dad who [TS]

  in a prior life was a carpenter so he's [TS]

  like woodworking inclined there's many [TS]

  things that without them I would have to [TS]

  either pay someone to do something maybe [TS]

  figured out myself in the spare time I [TS]

  don't feel [TS]

  I have or just live with it forever I [TS]

  don't feel that incapable for home [TS]

  repair things is my my my parents do my [TS]

  father does come and fix everything [TS]

  exactly like you were saying your [TS]

  father-in-law meet you Marco but but [TS]

  it's not because I don't know how to fix [TS]

  it it's because I don't want to fix it I [TS]

  don't have time to fix it and and he's [TS]

  going to do a better job too because i [TS]

  have he's fix it more times than me but [TS]

  i do know what to do only because i [TS]

  spent an entire lifetime watching home [TS]

  improvement television just oh I spent a [TS]

  lot of time watching but not as much as [TS]

  you but I spent a lot time watching the [TS]

  shows too so all I can do is be the [TS]

  annoying person of like are you sure you [TS]

  want to do it that way like I can be [TS]

  like that guy which is the worst [TS]

  possible Robles that guy yet know it cuz [TS]

  like I know just enough to be a little [TS]

  like criticize and make stupid comments [TS]

  about something but not enough to [TS]

  actually do it right myself or to [TS]

  realize what the way they did is [TS]

  actually correct not what not my amateur [TS]

  view of what holmes on homes would think [TS]

  is the right thing to do any i keep [TS]

  watching them though like I'm severe [TS]

  sigh still have season passes for those [TS]

  shows I still watch them so then you're [TS]

  up to date on the latest technologies [TS]

  really just mold generation technologies [TS]

  criticizing and in making snarky [TS]

  comments whatever it is you said that [TS]

  isn't that pretty much our show in a [TS]

  nutshell just criticizing from afar not [TS]

  really knowing what we're talking about [TS]

  but I like to think that we at least III [TS]

  think we know more about what we [TS]

  criticize on this show then I know about [TS]

  home repairs yes yes I would say that's [TS]

  definitely the case because if the very [TS]

  least all of us do a lot of things [TS]

  related to the things we're talking [TS]

  about whereas despite me watching home [TS]

  improvement shows from my entire life [TS]

  I've never built the house not even once [TS]

  alright so we should start as always [TS]

  with some follow-up and somebody I think [TS]

  John phrased this section as pouring [TS]

  cold water on Apple USBC notions and so [TS]

  we talked last episode about whether or [TS]

  not the forthcoming iphone will call it [TS]

  for the purposes of this conversation [TS]

  the iphone 8 whether the phone itself [TS]

  will have a USBC port on it and there [TS]

  was a Wall Street Journal report that [TS]

  seemed ambiguously to say yes and then [TS]

  ming-chi Kuo has come out and said well [TS]

  we believe all three new iPhones [TS]

  launching launching in the second half [TS]

  of 20 [TS]

  17 will support fast charging by the [TS]

  adoption of type C power delivery [TS]

  technology while still retaining [TS]

  lightning port so probably sticking with [TS]

  lightning port which I think I'm in [TS]

  support of but having listened to most [TS]

  of the shows that that are like ours I [TS]

  cover this sort of thing I feel like I'm [TS]

  the only one which makes me wonder if [TS]

  I'm just the old man of the crowd all of [TS]

  a sudden I was hoping this was a [TS]

  reaction to the wall street journal [TS]

  story which was weird man big us and had [TS]

  everyone talk about us bc and then [TS]

  ming-chi kuo just says no no here I know [TS]

  how to speak in sentences to have [TS]

  meaning that is clear to the reader [TS]

  every single new iphone coming this year [TS]

  will have a lightning port on the bottom [TS]

  boom done and so I'm hoping is just [TS]

  simply a clarification I'm hoping what [TS]

  it's not is like a competing rumor of [TS]

  you know without any particular [TS]

  foundation but it certainly seemed like [TS]

  that ambiguous story was out there there [TS]

  was a lot of chatter and then this thing [TS]

  came and just shut everybody up and said [TS]

  it's the boring thing never mind yeah I [TS]

  mean at some point I think makes you [TS]

  quit needs to evolve into just the [TS]

  dalrymple just nope yep no I think you [TS]

  know as we said last show this we all [TS]

  thought this was fairly unlikely to be [TS]

  the case that they would have that they [TS]

  would replace the Lightning port with [TS]

  USBC port I do think it is still worth [TS]

  considering as a thought experiment I do [TS]

  think that if they were to actually like [TS]

  get drunk and do this I I would actually [TS]

  welcome that change I think it would be [TS]

  it would be temporary pain but long term [TS]

  would be great and Apple usually airs on [TS]

  that side of that kind of decision [TS]

  ultimately though I still think it's [TS]

  very unlikely with with one little [TS]

  exception that we keep hearing from [TS]

  people about the EU regulations about [TS]

  phones all having the same connector and [TS]

  for the for the last few years ever [TS]

  since the introduction of lightning [TS]

  basically the EU said all phones have to [TS]

  have you know what used to be micro USB [TS]

  i have not also been following this very [TS]

  closely but what I keep hearing from [TS]

  people is that that regulation is [TS]

  getting more strict now and that apple [TS]

  will no longer [TS]

  be able to get away with just shipping [TS]

  an adapter that that converts light into [TS]

  USB to microUSB rather or in this case I [TS]

  assume it's USBC so there's something [TS]

  going on there where the EU is putting [TS]

  pressure on Apple and I don't know if I [TS]

  can negotiate their way out of it again [TS]

  but there that there might be something [TS]

  there you know like that there might be [TS]

  a strong reason for Apple to say okay [TS]

  you know what in addition to all the [TS]

  other reasons we have to get rid of [TS]

  lightning and switched us bc these days [TS]

  it would also probably cause less [TS]

  friction with the EU and any other kind [TS]

  of similar regulatory body around the [TS]

  world that might get in the way you know [TS]

  I wouldn't expect in the next [TS]

  three-and-a-half to seven years that the [TS]

  US would really care that much about [TS]

  reducing waste in a regulation but I [TS]

  imagine other countries that that [TS]

  actually have functioning governments [TS]

  probably all have similar goals yeah [TS]

  that would be awesome right they [TS]

  probably all have similar goals of like [TS]

  you know reducing electronic waste and [TS]

  standardizing on things that really [TS]

  matter and stuff like that and so I [TS]

  think apples gonna keep getting pressure [TS]

  from large markets you know if I mean if [TS]

  China did it game over right like [TS]

  imagine if China said okay Fortis [TS]

  telephone and China after the after you [TS]

  know 2017 it has to have us bc on the [TS]

  bottom what lightning would be gone the [TS]

  next day you know so they can make two [TS]

  different they make two different models [TS]

  one for that market they've made [TS]

  different models with different things [TS]

  inside them before but like I China [TS]

  could do something like that but my [TS]

  understanding of the EU thing is not [TS]

  it's not like Apple can't sell it I [TS]

  think it's more like a guideline or [TS]

  agreement and I'm sure there's some kind [TS]

  of carrot and stick thing where if you [TS]

  follow along with the agreement [TS]

  voluntarily there's you get some boon or [TS]

  whatever but I'm not convinced that it's [TS]

  a type of thing where like if Apple [TS]

  doesn't do it then they can't cell phone [TS]

  in Europe and if it wasn't China we're [TS]

  trying to can say guess what you have to [TS]

  do this no matter what like actually [TS]

  make a requirement I think they would [TS]

  make a different model if if the [TS]

  conversation had not been one inside [TS]

  Apple for us be entirely because making [TS]

  a different model for China's and is [TS]

  probably fine I mean and they have done [TS]

  that in the past for other things but it [TS]

  seems like you know there's arguments on [TS]

  both sides of whether they should do [TS]

  this or not [TS]

  and so if there's a big thing external a [TS]

  big external factor that tips them one [TS]

  way or the other they would probably go [TS]

  that way right and so if there's like a [TS]

  major world market of buying phones that [TS]

  demands in a pretty strong way or [TS]

  absolutely requires that they that they [TS]

  have the standard port on the bottom [TS]

  instead of their proprietary report that [TS]

  would probably be enough to sway the [TS]

  argument one way or the other if there [TS]

  were no like massive downsides that we [TS]

  aren't thinking of you know if they're [TS]

  some kind of major engineering challenge [TS]

  of doing it but you know on a brand new [TS]

  phone that they could that they have [TS]

  designed separately from the iphone 7 [TS]

  and 6 god I hope I assuming we finally [TS]

  get a new design then they could totally [TS]

  do it and I don't see any obvious [TS]

  downside we talked to elastic anyway I [TS]

  still don't think it's likely i still [TS]

  think the most likely scenario is what [TS]

  makes you quote said where yeah this [TS]

  rumor from the washer no that was [TS]

  horribly written got the facts wrong and [TS]

  it's actually just us bc on the charger [TS]

  end that's the that's the way more [TS]

  likely explanation here but i still do [TS]

  think it would be better to go us bc on [TS]

  both ends or at least the phone end and [TS]

  there might be better reason to do that [TS]

  we don't know so the hardware mine virus [TS]

  worked on me because i was getting all [TS]

  excited about us bc phones until i read [TS]

  this cold water story oh my god [TS]

  nevermind but really what happened [TS]

  related to this is my nintendo switch [TS]

  did arrive which maybe we'll talk about [TS]

  later and and i got a pro controller [TS]

  with it and this is the first device [TS]

  besides my apple TV which i never plug [TS]

  in the USB see things into that i had [TS]

  occasion to see and mess with us bc [TS]

  connectors with what i got my pro [TS]

  control i had to plug it in to charge it [TS]

  and there's a little USBC connector [TS]

  inside the little switch dock or [TS]

  whatever and so i'm holding here the the [TS]

  pro controller charging cable and when i [TS]

  took us out of the box and plugged it in [TS]

  I my immediate thought was oh no way is [TS]

  Apple gonna you ever use this thing it's [TS]

  huge like I know it's not that much [TS]

  bigger than the Lightning it is barely [TS]

  bigger than lightning but just seeing it [TS]

  in real life like can you imagine how [TS]

  putting this thing on the phone no no [TS]

  way in hell like obviously this is just [TS]

  my gut reaction like I'm not using my [TS]

  brain at that point but my my visceral [TS]

  reaction [TS]

  disconnect here was how massive it was [TS]

  compared to lightning I was like if I [TS]

  was inside Apple I would like recoil in [TS]

  horror at the star of the conversation [TS]

  of like remind me again what we do in [TS]

  line again it would take a look at this [TS]

  look at this giant we can't we can't [TS]

  have this on our phones ridiculous [TS]

  what's next vga ports Oh God um it [TS]

  really is i know that much bigger I know [TS]

  I know I was like it it cracked me up [TS]

  that that was my reaction like it is not [TS]

  that much really I have a lighting [TS]

  partner right next to and I'm hold it up [TS]

  next to like it is bare millimeters but [TS]

  the fact that it's wider and also [TS]

  thicker it just makes it seem so much [TS]

  more matte so then it doesn't help that [TS]

  like I have one of the good old [TS]

  lightning connectors here that in front [TS]

  of me with a very small plastic part [TS]

  that's barely bigger than the metal part [TS]

  like it looks so small and dainty it's [TS]

  almost like the lightning can go inside [TS]

  a USBC port well it almost can because [TS]

  of the the gender flows between the [TS]

  connector and the and the wire you know [TS]

  like like and and that's actually the i [TS]

  suspect i don't know those for sure i [TS]

  have lived that that deeply into it but [TS]

  i suspect the design of us bc probably [TS]

  permits for there to be less clearance [TS]

  around the port opening like I bet you [TS]

  can shrink the device thickness closer [TS]

  around the port size with us bc then you [TS]

  could around lightning because lighting [TS]

  has to have all the pins and everything [TS]

  on the inside as opposed to us bc which [TS]

  has just like you know the flat [TS]

  conductors on the inside so i would [TS]

  imagine there might be something there [TS]

  with you see also they have tons of room [TS]

  they got rid of the headphone jack and [TS]

  this other speaker on the bottom is fake [TS]

  so they have tons of room I mean I mean [TS]

  thickness wise obviously with the [TS]

  they're not at a loss for but anyway [TS]

  it's it's it's not that big of a deal [TS]

  and I still I still think it would be [TS]

  cool for them to go us bc but this rumor [TS]

  seems to say they're not and so we're [TS]

  back to the default universe of Apple [TS]

  where it's lighting for a while longer [TS]

  yet what I do wish for at least since we [TS]

  since we're probably not going to get [TS]

  our our USBC on both ends cable does [TS]

  anybody make the USBC equivalent of [TS]

  these wonderful anchor like five port [TS]

  USB chargers like all I've seen out [TS]

  there are charges that have one USBC [TS]

  port I have not seen any that have like [TS]

  five like I would love to standardize on [TS]

  just one cable type and just like it [TS]

  might like I I'm traveling soon and I'm [TS]

  packing my travel [TS]

  bag and I have to have all these [TS]

  different cable types because it's like [TS]

  well I need every combination of [TS]

  something on one end and something else [TS]

  on the other end and like everything [TS]

  between us be a USB see lightning [TS]

  microUSB like I have all these stupid [TS]

  cable types and these 50 different [TS]

  chargers come on I mean anyway so I hope [TS]

  I hope there's I hope the USBC ecosystem [TS]

  blooms soon because when it does that [TS]

  will be even more reason for Apple to [TS]

  please for the love of God change the [TS]

  iphone use USB see speaking of vga you [TS]

  better hope USB a USB type a connector [TS]

  doesn't turn out to be the vga port [TS]

  hangouts reference you remember like [TS]

  remember how long vga held on we had so [TS]

  many other standards that like it was [TS]

  just like you could not get rid of ej [TS]

  just eight states ee on the side of pc [TS]

  laptops they stubbornly on projectors [TS]

  long after multiple better smaller [TS]

  standards existed and really hoping the [TS]

  USBA hasn't like gained enough momentum [TS]

  that it will not be dislodged by us bc [TS]

  for like an extra you know five to ten [TS]

  years just because that will be said you [TS]

  know it's certain sometimes transitions [TS]

  are easier like the second time through [TS]

  in this case like the transition from [TS]

  dock connector to lightning it was very [TS]

  painful but a lot of people took that [TS]

  opportunity to not just go to lightning [TS]

  for their devices or needs but to just [TS]

  go directly to wireless to airplay and [TS]

  bluetooth is like that with the with the [TS]

  vga in conference room projector [TS]

  situation I wonder like how many [TS]

  conference rooms actually just went from [TS]

  VGA to DVI or lightning and how many [TS]

  just switched to other solutions like [TS]

  air playing to an apple TV or something [TS]

  like that well it's fucking for someone [TS]

  doesn't spend a lot of time in corporate [TS]

  America ya know they don't have their [TS]

  play though airplay as airplay is not [TS]

  the answer but I gotta tell you so my [TS]

  office is all in on the Google ecosystem [TS]

  which it at first glance for an apple [TS]

  centric show like ours might sound [TS]

  terrible but truth be told it actually [TS]

  works out really well and so in most [TS]

  conference rooms there's a chromebox and [TS]

  I don't know enough about chrome boxes [TS]

  to know if there's something special [TS]

  about them like I've seen the physical [TS]

  cardboard boxes that the chromebox comes [TS]

  in and I think it says like chromebox [TS]

  for meetings or something like that on [TS]

  it the specific specific [TS]

  it doesn't matter but what ends up [TS]

  happening is there's a TV in each of [TS]

  these conference rooms there's a [TS]

  chromebox hooked up to the TV and the [TS]

  chromebox shows like that rooms schedule [TS]

  for the day and you just select you know [TS]

  the the current oftentimes the currently [TS]

  active button and that will jump into [TS]

  the google hangouts for that meeting and [TS]

  not having used Google Hangouts prior to [TS]

  coming to the company i had heard like a [TS]

  lot of mixed things about it i thought [TS]

  it would be kind of garbage but it's [TS]

  actually pretty nice and that what we'll [TS]

  do is if you are trying to present [TS]

  something to the meeting you just hop on [TS]

  the Hangout on your laptop and it will [TS]

  it will thus it implicitly go to the TV [TS]

  in the conference room and it will also [TS]

  be presented to anyone that happens to [TS]

  be remote as well it works out [TS]

  surprisingly well and yes there's [TS]

  hiccups and coughs and whatnot from time [TS]

  to time but it's really solid I was very [TS]

  surprised how much I've really gotten to [TS]

  like hangouts in this regard when your [TS]

  other choices WebEx anything looks good [TS]

  yeah that's true too amen brother I have [TS]

  so well before we get on topic of [TS]

  conference rooms like I remember going [TS]

  through this several years back at work [TS]

  when we were going through a corporate I [TS]

  don't know disturbance upsetedness about [TS]

  conference room tech like everyone was [TS]

  cranky about it especially the tech [TS]

  people and we tried all those things we [TS]

  had a Google box we tried to Google [TS]

  Hangouts and I you know airplane to [TS]

  Apple TVs came up because if you look at [TS]

  how much money all the equipment we had [TS]

  that we were installing to see how much [TS]

  it was costing it's like an apple TV is [TS]

  nothing compared to that and this is yet [TS]

  another market that Apple could have [TS]

  done well in with either a dedicated [TS]

  product like a chromecast or just by [TS]

  making apple TV better but it was [TS]

  basically a non-starter partially [TS]

  because you know no airplay on PCs and [TS]

  everything but we had a lot of Max and I [TS]

  don't think that would have stopped it [TS]

  mainly because it was so much of a pain [TS]

  to get Apple TV's on to the corporate [TS]

  network you could do it but you needed a [TS]

  special weird utility and it wasn't [TS]

  simple and no one wanted to go through [TS]

  with that so now instead of being able [TS]

  to bring your mac into the room and [TS]

  airplay to the projector you plug into [TS]

  one of the 800 cables that's poking out [TS]

  of this giant Hydra one of hgs is still [TS]

  vga [TS]

  who knows what they're going to do if [TS]

  and when my work ever buys the new [TS]

  laptops that have the USBC connectors [TS]

  because most of the time in mac users [TS]

  plugged in to hdmi these days yeah i [TS]

  have to mention to like hdmi because you [TS]

  know Vijay was analog and then we [TS]

  finally got DVI and then HDMI which is [TS]

  basically DVI with bonus stuff attached [TS]

  to it I feel like it's easier to adapt [TS]

  to the to the new digital standards [TS]

  these days and HDMI is also pretty [TS]

  pretty well supported now I mean I don't [TS]

  think it's I don't think it's as big [TS]

  like as universal as vga was at its peak [TS]

  but I think it's getting there and and [TS]

  it's going to be fairly trivial for [TS]

  almost any new port standard to adapt to [TS]

  hdmi for the foreseeable future if this [TS]

  is going to be in such high demand every [TS]

  new device that has video out capability [TS]

  will have some way to transit that's a [TS]

  HDMI for a long time so I think that [TS]

  it's mostly a moot point these days [TS]

  we're sponsor this week by Pingdom my [TS]

  favorite server monitoring service start [TS]

  monitoring your websites and service [TS]

  today at Pingdom calm / ATP you get a [TS]

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  it happened to not be where you live you [TS]

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  otherwise but Pingdom can tell you that [TS]

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  expressions or patterns or substrate or [TS]

  anything else and all sorts of you can [TS]

  take you can have it served with cookies [TS]

  and conditions and everything it's [TS]

  incredibly powerful stuff breaks on the [TS]

  internet all the time and I mean heck [TS]

  this this past week there was an [TS]

  interesting outage of Amazon s3 and that [TS]

  caused a lot of stuff to break and [TS]

  Pingdom had a lot of outages to report [TS]

  and of course they did they did their [TS]

  job very well there because they always [TS]

  do their job very well i've been using [TS]

  Pingdom since I think 2007 [TS]

  it's it's been a very long time I used [TS]

  it for the vast majority of tumblr all [TS]

  events to paper all of overcast so far I [TS]

  use it for my personal site our friend [TS]

  underscore David Smith used to use it to [TS]

  monitor the Apple WBC page for changes [TS]

  and have it alert him every time [TS]

  whenever the page change so we'd know [TS]

  when tickets went on sale because you [TS]

  don't have to actually own the URLs that [TS]

  you're testing there's all sorts of [TS]

  great uses for Pingdom and of course if [TS]

  you run a server or a website or any [TS]

  kind of web service you need to know [TS]

  when your site goes down and you need to [TS]

  be the first to note you shouldn't need [TS]

  to wait around to the two later read [TS]

  Twitter and see like you've had 50 [TS]

  responses people on Twitter that your [TS]

  site's been down over the last three [TS]

  hours and you didn't even know about it [TS]

  with pingdom you'll be the first to know [TS]

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  business check it out today go to [TS]

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  first invoice with offer code ATP thanks [TS]

  to pingdom for sponsoring our show ah [TS]

  Eric Peterman rights in part of the USBC [TS]

  spec is two-way power devices choose [TS]

  what charges what based on the order of [TS]

  plugging them in so aim at hood charge [TS]

  the switch so this is Harry way to do it [TS]

  it really is this is with regard to the [TS]

  rumor or or or maybe what I guess wasn't [TS]

  a rumor but but somebody had plugged a [TS]

  switch into one of the new macbook pros [TS]

  and they said oh this is weird the [TS]

  switch is charging the macbook pro [TS]

  rather than what you would expect which [TS]

  is the reverse and this is what Eric's [TS]

  talking about so i had heard separately [TS]

  from a not reliable source that that was [TS]

  actually a firmware issue with the [TS]

  switch but this indicates that it's all [TS]

  about who plugs into what when which is [TS]

  kind of bananas the fact that it [TS]

  wouldn't be deterministic like that it [TS]

  would like imagine imagine like in real [TS]

  life you know anybody using these [TS]

  devices who isn't intricately familiar [TS]

  with the USBC spec you know oh I [TS]

  accidentally plug this in backwards and [TS]

  depleted the device that I was trying to [TS]

  charge plug your phone into your laptop [TS]

  and it drains [TS]

  run to climb yeah why would you design [TS]

  spec that who knows III haven't looked [TS]

  this obviously but i think is actually a [TS]

  reasonable way for things to work in the [TS]

  absence of anything else dictating and i [TS]

  would imagine if you plug a phone into [TS]

  an apple out you know an iphone into an [TS]

  apple laptop they have already they [TS]

  already have a system through some [TS]

  resistor values some other crap to [TS]

  ensure that it never goes in the [TS]

  opposite direction but if you have two [TS]

  devices that are basically from their [TS]

  perspective but I don't know making up [TS]

  terminology of like to host devices like [TS]

  laptop and the switch that's as [TS]

  reasonable way as any if they both [TS]

  expect to be the thing charging but [TS]

  their plugs into each other there has to [TS]

  be some kind of negotiations a plug [TS]

  water sounds fine but I would hope that [TS]

  for the common case where it's like one [TS]

  really big one and one really small one [TS]

  like I would hope that the phone doesn't [TS]

  have the power to charge anything I mean [TS]

  I suppose it does it powers like audio [TS]

  peripherals but it's not charging them [TS]

  right now barely yeah all right daniel [TS]

  klein rights in us bc vs lightning isn't [TS]

  the middle part of us bc a lot more [TS]

  breakable than the solid lightning [TS]

  connector in he continues more important [TS]

  than springs i'm not entirely sure what [TS]

  he's referring to there like the little [TS]

  springing bits this is a my concern [TS]

  about the USBC before seeing them and [TS]

  even when you see you can kind of you [TS]

  know look and look into the the female [TS]

  connector on us bc and you see the [TS]

  little circuit board thing with the [TS]

  contacts sticking out and in theory you [TS]

  can stick your finger nail in there and [TS]

  just crack that thing down your port is [TS]

  dead I haven't don't have enough [TS]

  real-world experience plugging and [TS]

  unplugging USBC to say how fragile that [TS]

  thing is and how likely it is to either [TS]

  get stuff jammed around it or break [TS]

  these are all question marks I would [TS]

  imagine that it is probably sturdier [TS]

  than you think because it's wedged up in [TS]

  there and unless you actually stick [TS]

  something in there to get at it it's not [TS]

  it's not some place where it can get [TS]

  bumped or hit or anything and when the [TS]

  connector is around it it's very secure [TS]

  because it's a police surrounded by the [TS]

  thing so I'm going to give them the [TS]

  benefit of the doubt give Apple the [TS]

  benefit out of rubber design is [TS]

  connector that that it is okay and what [TS]

  this question maybe think about and some [TS]

  other people who ask similar questions [TS]

  about the springy bits in the contacts [TS]

  and maybe think about my what I was [TS]

  saying last show about how it is better [TS]

  to have the springy bits in the cable [TS]

  because if they fatigue didn't start [TS]

  making bad contacts you just threw out [TS]

  the cable and get a new cable where it's [TS]

  the springy bits fatigue inside your [TS]

  iPhone what can you do there's not much [TS]

  you can do about it but that was in the [TS]

  context of the hardware virus where the [TS]

  the springy bits get less springy and [TS]

  don't contact well with the contacts and [TS]

  start arcing and make a little Bernie [TS]

  spot and that Bernie spot doesn't [TS]

  connect with other one it spreads from [TS]

  things the thing seems to me that that [TS]

  could still happen no matter where the [TS]

  springy bits are because if it starts [TS]

  arcing because the springy bits in your [TS]

  cable or bad it's going to leave that [TS]

  little scorch mark on the the stationary [TS]

  part inside the female USBC connector [TS]

  you won't see it you won't see the [TS]

  little stripy thing but it'll be there [TS]

  which means that even after you throw [TS]

  out the cable now one of your contacts [TS]

  inside your USBC connector inside the [TS]

  female end is a little bit scorchy and [TS]

  so when you stick your brand spanking [TS]

  new cable that you bought in there it's [TS]

  going to have poor contact with the [TS]

  score so like that that it could still [TS]

  happen what is what I'm saying now I [TS]

  guess it's all depends on how resilient [TS]

  the springy bits are maybe it's the [TS]

  design of the springing bits this [TS]

  different they certainly you know look [TS]

  different if you look inside the [TS]

  connectors and they do inside lighting [TS]

  so I don't know again it's very [TS]

  difficult to eyeball these things based [TS]

  on like the few people you know and your [TS]

  guesstimation by looking at connectors [TS]

  only the companies that make the [TS]

  products have actual numbers and they [TS]

  don't seem to be sharing them but I [TS]

  imagine if there is a large reliability [TS]

  difference between lightning and USB see [TS]

  we as a society will learn that together [TS]

  over the next few years because even [TS]

  though we won't have the data eventually [TS]

  it'll be clear is there some sort of [TS]

  widespread problem with this and not a [TS]

  widespread problem with that or is there [TS]

  problems with both of them or you know [TS]

  like I imagined it'll be about a wash [TS]

  but we'll say Jeff Spivak writes more [TS]

  naked robotic macbook pros and there's a [TS]

  link to yanko design which has a super [TS]

  case for your macbook what the deuce is [TS]

  going on here it's just like the macbook [TS]

  pro this isn't a macro pro this is a [TS]

  macbook but hey you know these these [TS]

  laptops at apple mix have us bc and or a [TS]

  thunderbolt three ports on them but [TS]

  don't have any other reports that people [TS]

  wanted no SD card slot no big honkin USB [TS]

  a slot or whatever maybe you want more [TS]

  battery on it and these sort of cases [TS]

  for your laptop's that plug into the USB [TS]

  see and or Thunderbolt three port [TS]

  and add a bunch of other ports just like [TS]

  one of those adapters or docks that they [TS]

  sell it or external and maybe also add [TS]

  the battery and so here you go Nick [TS]

  robotic or of your macbook you want it [TS]

  to be thicker and a little bit heavier [TS]

  and have an SD card slot in the USB a [TS]

  thing and another USBC pass through and [TS]

  I might micro USB I can't even tell what [TS]

  the hell this thing has on it anyway you [TS]

  want a bunch more ports and you want to [TS]

  talk like an ugly pc laptop with a bunch [TS]

  of plastic crap get this way to sell it [TS]

  it doesn't look good but I'm saying it's [TS]

  like this is this is one hundred percent [TS]

  the naked robotic or as applied to max [TS]

  like we made it as small and as thin as [TS]

  possible if you want something different [TS]

  you can add it like the tech is there [TS]

  you know like all the like all those [TS]

  breakout docks and adapters like the [TS]

  tech is there you could put an Ethernet [TS]

  port in this thing right go ahead and [TS]

  it's kind of amazing that this you add [TS]

  this thing to it and it makes your [TS]

  laptop like seven times thicker but it [TS]

  really does on one side have us be a in [TS]

  an SD card slot on the other side have [TS]

  another USB a USBC in a micro USB or [TS]

  wherever the hell it may be just another [TS]

  USB see I can't tell like suddenly your [TS]

  macbook one is macbook way more than one [TS]

  yeah this this thing is is something [TS]

  else I I do commend the effort of things [TS]

  like this to make these lifetimes more [TS]

  useful but i think they are destined to [TS]

  have the same problem the same thing i [TS]

  was complaining about with with battery [TS]

  backpacks on phones that all of the like [TS]

  casing and electronics overhead of [TS]

  having to have like the separate [TS]

  standalone device with its own plastic [TS]

  on both sides and its own like metal [TS]

  shielding and different parts and [TS]

  charging opponents and discharging [TS]

  components and everything else like the [TS]

  additional bulk of having to bolt this [TS]

  on as an external thing makes the entire [TS]

  package end up being so bigger so much [TS]

  bigger and heavier than if you had a [TS]

  laptop that just had these things in the [TS]

  first place built in that it just [TS]

  doesn't it just seem compelling to me [TS]

  and so the alternative in apple's [TS]

  universe assuming apple doesn't actually [TS]

  make a machine that has the ports that [TS]

  you want on it like the apple does make [TS]

  these things with a very capable port on [TS]

  it that is capable of supporting opus [TS]

  like the reason he's going to exist [TS]

  because there is a capable the apple [TS]

  turnip is a whole mess of adapters and [TS]

  hours and we look at this we sell ways [TS]

  and ugly as it inconvenient it makes it [TS]

  thicker it makes it heavier is it uglier [TS]

  and more inconvenient than a whole mess [TS]

  of adapters or an external breakout box [TS]

  doc I mean it really depends on the [TS]

  environment you're using it I wouldn't [TS]

  want to be I would be more happy [TS]

  carrying this from conference room to [TS]

  conference room attending a series of [TS]

  meetings no matter how ugly it is [TS]

  because it's self-contained and I don't [TS]

  have to have like put down my laptop [TS]

  then dumped on the table a handful of [TS]

  adapters or a breakout box or this big [TS]

  Hydra of cables like that that is worse [TS]

  in many ways for a machine that is [TS]

  supposed to be portable so yes it is [TS]

  technically possible to plug in a bunch [TS]

  of wires it kind of reminds me of those [TS]

  old imac ads were they would you like [TS]

  the pc with a million wires poking out [TS]

  of the back of it and sure like the imac [TS]

  and how clean it wasn't you didn't need [TS]

  all this stuff just one power cable [TS]

  right that's some of the mouse that is [TS]

  like every macbook one that people use [TS]

  to get anything beyond like the basics [TS]

  done on yeah i really they're using [TS]

  their own computer for that but even I I [TS]

  recall seeing like if you ever see a [TS]

  picture of a real persons like not just [TS]

  a marketing shot but someone who bought [TS]

  a mac pro and uses it for work bought a [TS]

  trash can to work as a million wires [TS]

  coming out of it and it looks for all [TS]

  the world like those ugly pcs I'm not [TS]

  saying this is the wrong solution but [TS]

  it's kind of like how they always show [TS]

  like lamps in product shots without [TS]

  wires coming from them or like [TS]

  appliances like there's never any wires [TS]

  like wait how does that lamp get power [TS]

  they erase the wires because wires are [TS]

  ugly they don't want you to see them [TS]

  when they're showing a picture like you [TS]

  know here is Samsung's fancy new TV they [TS]

  don't show the wires coming out of it [TS]

  because that's ugly you know even when [TS]

  they show the back of it they don't show [TS]

  the wires they want to show you all the [TS]

  ports wires are ugly and inconvenient [TS]

  and make your products look worse and [TS]

  are generally annoying to wrangle and so [TS]

  as ugly as this weird little sleeve [TS]

  thing is i hope the signal is sending to [TS]

  Apple is hey Apple if you made a laptop [TS]

  that made a different set of compromises [TS]

  you may be able to you know I feel like [TS]

  it should be apples job to make sure [TS]

  that no one ever wants to buy this thing [TS]

  and maybe they don't want to buy just [TS]

  because it's ugly but say they had [TS]

  Justin SD card slot as we've discussed [TS]

  on the macbook pro 13-inch would that [TS]

  satisfy everybody know because it [TS]

  doesn't have micro you know USB and and [TS]

  the USB a ports or whatever but it would [TS]

  satisfy slightly more people and what [TS]

  would the cost be so it's very difficult [TS]

  knowing what what the right compromise [TS]

  is for the complement of ports I do like [TS]

  the idea that things like this are [TS]

  possible I don't like the idea that [TS]

  people would be driven to buy them [TS]

  because they're you know they're going [TS]

  to say they're they're not of Apple [TS]

  quality for the most part yeah i mean [TS]

  this like you know what you said like if [TS]

  Apple were to allow us to make a [TS]

  different set of compromises if you had [TS]

  to boil down all of my complaints about [TS]

  Apple's hardware lineup from the last [TS]

  five years or so that's it like I wish [TS]

  Apple would allow me the choice of [TS]

  different compromises because for the [TS]

  most part they tend to enforce the same [TS]

  compromises on their entire product line [TS]

  on every member of the family so for [TS]

  instance like you know all the laptops [TS]

  are now hidden lights which sacrifice [TS]

  ports and now keyboard usability and [TS]

  trackpad usability like they set for the [TS]

  things in the name of thinness and for a [TS]

  lot of people that's great it's great to [TS]

  have that as an option in the lineup but [TS]

  I just wish it wasn't now the only [TS]

  option in the lineup and I think [TS]

  products like this just show that there [TS]

  is still substantial demand even though [TS]

  you know any any given one of these [TS]

  types of things is not going to sell [TS]

  very well I don't think but I think it [TS]

  says something that this is not the [TS]

  first thing we've seen like this and [TS]

  there's also the whole you know beyond [TS]

  just like the whole like you know new [TS]

  bottom case thing like this that you [TS]

  kind of sit the laptop in there's also [TS]

  the entire ecosystem of all these [TS]

  different USBC hubs that like almost [TS]

  every macbook one owner has one of these [TS]

  hubs at least one if not like seven from [TS]

  different Kickstarter's and everything [TS]

  like this really says I think Apple I [TS]

  wish Apple would would look at these [TS]

  results and and realize like it would be [TS]

  better it would be better for a lot of [TS]

  customers to just have different choices [TS]

  not just to be able to pick your given [TS]

  screen size of the same compromised [TS]

  ultra thin laptop we are sponsored this [TS]

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  force for Bill two cases it's a pretty [TS]

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  they've of course a TSA approved [TS]

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  also have a couple interesting things [TS]

  like a removable washable laundry bag so [TS]

  when you're out traveling you put all [TS]

  your dirty clothes in this removable [TS]

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  the suitcase so you always have with you [TS]

  and it keeps a separate from your finger [TS]

  from your other clothes and it's easy to [TS]

  take out later and wash and they also in [TS]

  their carry-on model this is incredibly [TS]

  thoughtful you might you might have [TS]

  heard about this elsewhere in their [TS]

  carry-on model they have a built-in USB [TS]

  charging battery so you can plug in cell [TS]

  phones tablets e-readers and anything [TS]

  else that's USB powered you can plug it [TS]

  in and charge it with your carry-on [TS]

  suitcase from away a single charge of [TS]

  the OA carry-ons internal battery can [TS]

  charge your iPhone 5 times and if [TS]

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  order thank you very much to a way for [TS]

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  alright so we're going to start tonight [TS]

  with four starting tonight sort of with [TS]

  a couple maybe all three of us ipad [TS]

  grumps talking about windows or [TS]

  windowing i guess i should say on iOS [TS]

  and Stephen Trent Smith who is uh [TS]

  probably the best iOS hacker and I don't [TS]

  know I hate using that term on [TS]

  ironically but I don't know what else to [TS]

  call him I don't think he would take [TS]

  offense yeah I don't mean it in a [TS]

  disparaging way anyways he has been [TS]

  putting together over the last week or [TS]

  so basically a windowing system for iOS [TS]

  I guess specifically for ipad and it is [TS]

  absolutely bananas how impressive it [TS]

  looks and how fluid he's gotten it to [TS]

  look and there are several tweets about [TS]

  well there's many tweets about it we'll [TS]

  put one or two in the show notes but [TS]

  what's of interest to us I guess is he [TS]

  tweeted phone call from app review side [TS]

  by side windows fine resizable windows [TS]

  fine overlapping windows scream emoji [TS]

  apparently app review does not like the [TS]

  idea of having two windows or views on [TS]

  top of each other and this relates to [TS]

  one of my favorite ipad apps not [TS]

  necessarily in terms of how much I've [TS]

  used it but just I think it's an [TS]

  unbelievably clever idea which is panics [TS]

  status board app which if you're not [TS]

  familiar is basically you can arrange a [TS]

  series of widgets on the iPad screen and [TS]

  use your iPad a status board or if you [TS]

  want to you could plug it into a TV and [TS]

  use a whole TV as a status board powered [TS]

  by an iPad and it's very similar to this [TS]

  and so cable sasser of panax says stone [TS]

  our blog CMS as a never posted goodbye [TS]

  status board post from the time Apple [TS]

  said widgets are okay but we can't have [TS]

  more than one widget and this post [TS]

  included an illustration that may have [TS]

  helped change their minds and it's an [TS]

  illustration of this humongous TV with [TS]

  as little teeny tiny widget on it trying [TS]

  make the point of you know this is kind [TS]

  of ridiculous so I know this there's [TS]

  kind of a lot to unpack here but before [TS]

  anything else I do I am so unbelievably [TS]

  stunned and impressed by what Stephen [TS]

  Trump Smith is done with this iPad my I [TS]

  was gonna call it a mock-up but I mean [TS]

  it's it's working it's real it's a tech [TS]

  demo yeah that's a much better term for [TS]

  it it's so freaking cool he basically [TS]

  made finder yeah like a really simple [TS]

  version of finder with with like Finder [TS]

  windows and everything be able to browse [TS]

  files and preview the van everything [TS]

  it's pretty impressive it's kinda like [TS]

  the Mac os10 finder anyway not the real [TS]

  fun yeah and and it's at the point of it [TS]

  is not to be like a useful application [TS]

  the point of it is I I think to to show [TS]

  off like here's a really easy obvious [TS]

  way that you could do when doing on on [TS]

  iPads and let's see how how it actually [TS]

  behaves and works like is it useful is [TS]

  it easy to do is it confusing or does it [TS]

  just kind of work and so far I think it [TS]

  just kind of works you left off the last [TS]

  few tweets here which I think are [TS]

  important both both Steven and cables [TS]

  things so Steve continues after his [TS]

  scared face emoji or screaming face i [TS]

  had another Chris sorry Casey I didn't [TS]

  know the correct name of that emoji and [TS]

  chrome couldn't handle it so I can [TS]

  actually taste it if only we had a [TS]

  resource on this show somebody who was [TS]

  really an emoji expert uh he handled it [TS]

  and he read right over scared face and [TS]

  he replaced it with the correct which of [TS]

  I assume was the correct one cuz will [TS]

  this was deferred to him he's fluent in [TS]

  emoji right hello here so this is about [TS]

  a perv you saying the side by side [TS]

  window you know overlapping windows is [TS]

  no good right so saying effectively this [TS]

  is merely an informal heads up that if [TS]

  it were to be submitted to the app store [TS]

  with overlapping windows would be [TS]

  rejected remember he's not a submitting [TS]

  an application of the app store he's [TS]

  just doing like tech demos on Twitter [TS]

  and he gets a phone call from a ver you [TS]

  saying by the way if you were to submit [TS]

  that no all right and so the final bit [TS]

  here is this is why the ipad can't have [TS]

  nice things you're stuck waiting for [TS]

  Apple to innovate which is exactly the [TS]

  point of all just like who knows this is [TS]

  a good idea maybe this is a terrible [TS]

  idea but if Apple is going to not just [TS]

  enforce a set of guidelines in terms of [TS]

  quality and viruses and advertising and [TS]

  you know adult content and all sorts of [TS]

  other things that the app store does but [TS]

  to at the lab at this [TS]

  level to say you know you do whatever [TS]

  you want if you're making a game and you [TS]

  like it like you make a bunch of gooeys [TS]

  but in the in-between place where you [TS]

  try to make your own GUI we're going to [TS]

  say no to that and it's like Apple you [TS]

  don't look like it's a third-party [TS]

  application maybe it's a terrible idea [TS]

  when everyone hated maybe it's a great [TS]

  idea and you'll end up stealing it like [TS]

  pull to refresh you have to allow [TS]

  application developers to do things like [TS]

  this with the devices that you're making [TS]

  like this is not a ridiculous notion [TS]

  right and and maybe if it was more [TS]

  ridiculous would be allowed because [TS]

  again games gonna like look at my whole [TS]

  screen is a big OpenGL view I can do [TS]

  whatever the hell you want an apple is [TS]

  not going to be like Oh your menu system [TS]

  in this racing game looks a little bit [TS]

  weird like they don't care it's fine but [TS]

  this looks too much like a regular UI [TS]

  and this is not like the image that [TS]

  Apple wants for their thing and I feel [TS]

  like this starts to cross a line of your [TS]

  not ensuring quality in the app store [TS]

  you are constraining the you know you're [TS]

  constraining innovation like legitimate [TS]

  innovation not he's not trolling with [TS]

  this he's trying out a interface idea an [TS]

  interface idea that is just as valid is [TS]

  half the other people's terrible uses of [TS]

  UI kit then end up being terrible [TS]

  interfaces maybe it'll be terrible to [TS]

  who knows but why is this not allowed [TS]

  but so many other like sketching [TS]

  applications that have like drag off [TS]

  palette so you can float it's like well [TS]

  that's okay because the background is [TS]

  your painting or your sketch that you're [TS]

  doing and that's not a window and then [TS]

  the things I floating on top of it our [TS]

  windows but they can't overlap with each [TS]

  other it's it's ridiculous like and so [TS]

  we are forced to wait for Apple to [TS]

  slowly but you know perhaps surely [TS]

  perhaps not decide what it's going to do [TS]

  with this whole window okay pic picture [TS]

  and picture is fine and Apple do that [TS]

  and make an official API for it can we [TS]

  have any other floating windows up all [TS]

  the windows hmm maybe one or two and [TS]

  apps allow but don't try to solve the [TS]

  whole problem in the general purpose way [TS]

  because only apples allowed to do that [TS]

  so you're so it the users of the ipad [TS]

  the users of iOS are stuck waiting for [TS]

  Apple to figure out what to do it is [TS]

  impossible for third parties to innovate [TS]

  on iOS devices because Apple simply [TS]

  won't let them and that is terrible [TS]

  because most of the awesome innovations [TS]

  on the mac and many of them on iOS came [TS]

  from third-party developers that did [TS]

  something it became popular Apple saw [TS]

  and said well that's a good idea we [TS]

  should build that into the US or [TS]

  incorporate a similar mark [TS]

  or you know by super clock about clock [TS]

  in the menu bar I mean come on come on [TS]

  Apple this is super disappointing [TS]

  especially there / actively dickish [TS]

  about it call him saying yeah you better [TS]

  not submit that to the outdoors will [TS]

  reject it just so you know hold on [TS]

  though was that I don't think that was [TS]

  out of the blue and I might have this [TS]

  wrong but my interpretation which may be [TS]

  my own fabrication was that he had [TS]

  submitted it for like test flight or [TS]

  something and so as part of that he got [TS]

  like a little mini review and it was [TS]

  then that it was brought to apples [TS]

  attention and then that they called him [TS]

  and were like oh no that's not going to [TS]

  work but it either way like it but [TS]

  whether even if you officially submitted [TS]

  the bottom line is that they are they're [TS]

  saying you are not allowed to innovate [TS]

  in this way which i think is ridiculous [TS]

  let the app die on its own if it's a [TS]

  terrible idea right it's not it you know [TS]

  it's not malware well so there's there's [TS]

  been this rule i just checked it's still [TS]

  there there's been this rule this app [TS]

  review rule since i think the first [TS]

  publication of a preview rules back [TS]

  whenever that was like 2009-2010 and [TS]

  it's rule number 258 apps that create [TS]

  alternate desktop or home screen [TS]

  environments where simulate multi app [TS]

  widget experiences will be rejected I [TS]

  know like Launch Center pro had that [TS]

  problem a while back to I think that's [TS]

  girl rule as bogus to you know I think I [TS]

  do but but I think it's worth it's worth [TS]

  questioning why that rule is there and [TS]

  it might just be some like you know [TS]

  crazy Steve Jobs control freak old over [TS]

  but there also might be good reasons for [TS]

  so it might be for instance like they [TS]

  don't want like another app to basically [TS]

  like start like its own entire app [TS]

  ecosystem within it self like although [TS]

  it's you can kind of argue that's kind [TS]

  of what like whatsapp do does and [TS]

  everything but and snapchat anyway [TS]

  Facebook geez anyway but I think there's [TS]

  probably like this rule is probably not [TS]

  helping innovation overall it is this is [TS]

  probably holding things back now that [TS]

  being said you know support for any kind [TS]

  of like windowing system like this to [TS]

  get anywhere the way to do it in iOS is [TS]

  for Apple to do it like it's it's never [TS]

  get anywhere you know in the market like [TS]

  this well I disagree if it was actually [TS]

  a good idea and it was implemented in [TS]

  a popular or soon to be popular widely [TS]

  used creative application like for [TS]

  example of Adobe Illustrator came and it [TS]

  had tear-off pouts that you could [TS]

  overlap and rearrange just like the [TS]

  desktop one right they'll be disallowed [TS]

  under the under these stupid overlapping [TS]

  real things you can overlap to pouts [TS]

  with each other but if it was popular on [TS]

  that application and people liked it on [TS]

  their big ipad pro every competitor [TS]

  application would be scrambling to [TS]

  implement that any new competitor in the [TS]

  market would say if i want to make a [TS]

  professional vector drawing application [TS]

  on the 12 inch ipad pro i need to have [TS]

  these floating overlapping palettes [TS]

  because the market leader has them and [TS]

  everybody loves them and if i don't have [TS]

  them you know what i mean like let the [TS]

  idea live and die on its own i agree [TS]

  that if you're going to say okay well [TS]

  individual applications good window only [TS]

  Apple can do that period and that's fine [TS]

  but just to see bearing out the idea of [TS]

  like is it is it ridiculous to have [TS]

  people poking their fingers at window [TS]

  which is this is a dumb idea does it not [TS]

  work in a touch interface like the only [TS]

  way you will know is by trying you can [TS]

  think about you do the mental exercise [TS]

  and be like oh I don't want to drag [TS]

  around a window with a title bar how [TS]

  would I arrange them how does it work [TS]

  you have to try like I feel like it's [TS]

  this is the role of third-party [TS]

  developers if someone wants to muck with [TS]

  that and see if it's useful I think you [TS]

  can get a result that says either this [TS]

  is useful and maybe would be even more [TS]

  useful if applied broadly by Apple but [TS]

  even just within the confines of an [TS]

  application just like the floating [TS]

  palettes that are in a lot of [TS]

  applications now where there's one [TS]

  floating thing that you can tear off and [TS]

  move around that I think it's proof is [TS]

  proving its own utility because you [TS]

  don't know where it has to be and if [TS]

  it's always stuck to the side it's kind [TS]

  of difficult let the person move it [TS]

  around so it's out of their way when [TS]

  they're drawing but it lets them sort of [TS]

  configure their tool set and you know [TS]

  push it off to the side where they want [TS]

  it like I think that is an idea that is [TS]

  showing its value merely one confined to [TS]

  third-party applications and this is [TS]

  just taking to the next step and maybe [TS]

  it's a step too far and it's a terrible [TS]

  idea but Apple you just got to let [TS]

  people try it have you seen a panel kit [TS]

  which is apparently an open source [TS]

  framework to do these kind of like snap [TS]

  to the side and like sticky popover [TS]

  panels sort of things there's a really [TS]

  good animated gif that's on the readme [TS]

  for this thing and we'll put a link in [TS]

  the show notes but it's not exactly [TS]

  apples to apples what Steve Robin Smith [TS]

  was doing but it's very much of a [TS]

  similar spirit and it looks really like [TS]

  I haven't looked [TS]

  but just the demonstration looks really [TS]

  good yeah I mean I I think that the the [TS]

  more productive conversation to have on [TS]

  on this kind of thing is not like how we [TS]

  can get Apple to let it through wrap [TS]

  review because let's face it they won't [TS]

  or if they suddenly have a change of [TS]

  heart on an ancient rule like this it [TS]

  won't be because of us but I think it's [TS]

  worth all these things panel kit and [TS]

  Steve Tran Smith uh you know his his [TS]

  thing whatever it doesn't have an [TS]

  official name don't look so uh you know [TS]

  I i think it's it's worth talking about [TS]

  and I think this is probably why he made [TS]

  it it's worth talking about like does [TS]

  this work on iOS and do you think [TS]

  there's a future of windowed apps in [TS]

  some form like this on on iPads I don't [TS]

  know so yeah on that topic like cuz I I [TS]

  brought this up several shows back when [TS]

  what was it we were talking about that [TS]

  had the floating thing is when we [TS]

  originally talked about picture and [TS]

  picture and there was some application [TS]

  that also had a floating hang on top of [TS]

  it oh I don't know you got all the [TS]

  references yeah it was a thing that we [TS]

  took come on chat room mark will cut [TS]

  this out as we discover it what was a [TS]

  floating iPad keyboard si si oh that [TS]

  thing okay you're right yeah it was a [TS]

  floating keyboard that i'm pretty sure [TS]

  Steve Tretton Smith also found yes [TS]

  secret a hidden API private api for to [TS]

  put a keyboard there wasn't just the [TS]

  bottom of your screen it's lit up from [TS]

  the bottom but rather was a floating [TS]

  keyboard that was much smaller that you [TS]

  could move wherever you want it on the [TS]

  screen and that's that made me say this [TS]

  is kind of like a window and we have [TS]

  another example of that which is [TS]

  picture-in-picture there's another kind [TS]

  of window basically a little square [TS]

  that's on the screen that you can move [TS]

  wherever you want it more or less within [TS]

  constraints blah blah blah blah blah [TS]

  which is different than the traditional [TS]

  iOS experience which is a panel comes in [TS]

  from aside or goes out from whatever but [TS]

  you can't move it around right and that [TS]

  that was me initiating a larger [TS]

  discussion about windows with a [TS]

  lowercase W on iOS spawned by this you [TS]

  know hidden keyboard type thing and we [TS]

  also talked about some existing iOS [TS]

  applications like drawing applications [TS]

  that house will have floating palettes [TS]

  usually only one of them and it floats [TS]

  over the background which is your [TS]

  drawing but that is the thing a lot of [TS]

  people are trying and what I was trying [TS]

  to pitch them was that [TS]

  as if you want to keep taking the iPad [TS]

  even more and more pro in addition to [TS]

  making the screen bigger and especially [TS]

  when you do make the screen bigger you [TS]

  want to make better use of that screen [TS]

  and one proven way to let people make [TS]

  use of a larger screen is to give them [TS]

  different regions of it to do things [TS]

  more than just splitting it up into [TS]

  halves or thirds or whatever but even [TS]

  within an application to be able to move [TS]

  things around to arrange things the way [TS]

  they want them now the thing I them add [TS]

  to this conversation here is based on [TS]

  things that have been discussed on other [TS]

  podcasts starring my curly but also on [TS]

  cortex that's also him and cg b great [TS]

  talking about their multi ipad type [TS]

  things and all for all the people out [TS]

  there whose it's multipad soon as I come [TS]

  on yes right now or or phones and iPads [TS]

  which is just as common we got the ipad [TS]

  but your phone next to it or whatever [TS]

  very often this is presented as a way to [TS]

  basically to multitask like to say my [TS]

  smaller ipad over here has this thing on [TS]

  my bigger ipad has this my phone has [TS]

  this on my phone i have messages [TS]

  available a little ipad i have like [TS]

  slack and i'm a big ipad have the thing [TS]

  that I'm doing right cg b great often [TS]

  refers to it the same way that people [TS]

  have multiple pieces of paper around [TS]

  their desk at the same time you have [TS]

  this file tape over here then the main [TS]

  thing you're working on your referring [TS]

  to your notebook for notes and you have [TS]

  a book open over here were like having [TS]

  multiple desks here then I my left hand [TS]

  desk of my right-hand desk each ant has [TS]

  its own death so it is that is life [TS]

  everything if you if you were writing a [TS]

  paper referring to another thing and had [TS]

  a book open right for her into your [TS]

  notes and had a reference book open [TS]

  right you would do that um now every [TS]

  time I hear them discuss us and I'm not [TS]

  caught up on Carter cortex to forgive me [TS]

  if this comes up sometime in 2015 but [TS]

  every time i hear is discussed in the [TS]

  distant past where I'm living in in [TS]

  cortex right now I keep waiting for one [TS]

  of these two knuckleheads to realize [TS]

  that what they're talking about it's [TS]

  called windows why didn't maybe windows [TS]

  on personal computers it was like a [TS]

  desktop like a literal like not a [TS]

  literal desktop but the other meaning of [TS]

  layer which is figurative desktop [TS]

  metaphorical best time right like at the [TS]

  top of your desk like it's not even a [TS]

  distant is not even distant like there [TS]

  was talk about that and then on that [TS]

  desk would be different documents each [TS]

  of which will be represented by a window [TS]

  that you could move around the only [TS]

  difference is [TS]

  that it was all within one piece of [TS]

  glass so you would take the windows / [TS]

  documents and arrange them how you [TS]

  wanted with the thing you're writing in [TS]

  the middle and the notes you're [TS]

  referring to on the left and open a [TS]

  reference book on the right only middle [TS]

  left and right would all be on the [TS]

  screen and so it's maddening to hear [TS]

  people talk about all I have my big iPad [TS]

  on my little half of your those are just [TS]

  windows but their physical now and it's [TS]

  an in some respects it's better to have [TS]

  physical windows like it is more there [TS]

  are advantages to physical windows but [TS]

  imagine if your whole desk was a [TS]

  freaking giant Retina screen and you [TS]

  could arrange these windows will call [TS]

  them and you would have your little [TS]

  phone and you're right there just [TS]

  differently sized with those guys you [TS]

  just read my nose in the meat space [TS]

  they're just nice windows and like it's [TS]

  so painful to me to sleep in and I know [TS]

  they'll say like I don't want that I [TS]

  don't want Windows window what you know [TS]

  window arrangement sucks arranging my [TS]

  two iPads on my desk is great and there [TS]

  is i'm not going to said there is [TS]

  something to that because dealing with [TS]

  physical devices is better than dealing [TS]

  with the nose there are compromises to [TS]

  having them all be virtual on a 2d [TS]

  device but there are also advantages [TS]

  really really big advantages and people [TS]

  with long experience with using very [TS]

  large screens with lots of windows on [TS]

  them hello that's me can tell you that [TS]

  they're all there are also advantages to [TS]

  that approach and so I'm not saying one [TS]

  precludes the other and you have to stop [TS]

  the other one I'm just saying they are [TS]

  siblings they are they are solving the [TS]

  same problem in almost exactly the same [TS]

  way with only slightly different [TS]

  compromises and if they're going to say [TS]

  that that the multi-device thing is the [TS]

  way they prefer versus the other one [TS]

  that's fine but to never mention the [TS]

  element never realized that what they're [TS]

  essentially doing is exactly the same as [TS]

  having a really big screen with multiple [TS]

  windows and that there are advantages to [TS]

  having a really big screaming multiple [TS]

  windows in that virtual things are [TS]

  easier to deal with and manipulate than [TS]

  real things like you can't switch spaces [TS]

  that you can't swipe your four fingers [TS]

  to the left and suddenly a new desk [TS]

  slides in with a new set of iowa devices [TS]

  on it like its paces right okay minimize [TS]

  or window shade or or snap them to edges [TS]

  or resize them because you can't make [TS]

  your ipad mini into a different [TS]

  different orientation or a different [TS]

  size like there there are trade-offs to [TS]

  be sure and i'm not saying one is [TS]

  dominant over the other but as a strong [TS]

  strong proponent of the virtual pieces [TS]

  of paper as you know as a better [TS]

  approach for me personally than the [TS]

  physical pieces of paper or the [TS]

  virtual screens AK windows instead of [TS]

  the physical screens AK iOS devices I [TS]

  think this has to be in the mix and [TS]

  that's why when I say see Steve Trenton [TS]

  smiths like let's make some windows on [TS]

  iOS devices I say yes yes finally [TS]

  because if Apple ever does make a 27 [TS]

  inch iPad an approach that I think would [TS]

  appeal to a lot of people is to be able [TS]

  to have different overlapping resizable [TS]

  things to it so that you're not it was [TS]

  who wants to split a 27-inch screen into [TS]

  thirds or halves or quarters or like I [TS]

  know everyone loves tiling window [TS]

  managers on Linux or whatever there's a [TS]

  reason they have not taken the world by [TS]

  storm right not that overlapping windows [TS]

  is it greatest either they have [TS]

  anti-patterns too and people do like to [TS]

  zoom everything full screen but I feel [TS]

  like this is an avenue that has to be [TS]

  pursued it may not be the ultimate [TS]

  answer and it may be some hybrid of [TS]

  panels and staffing actually is that the [TS]

  best compromise for most people but you [TS]

  have to pursue it because it has proven [TS]

  utility we all sit in front of Max all [TS]

  day and somehow somehow we managed to [TS]

  get work done in this chaos of [TS]

  overlapping windows where we can never [TS]

  tell what the hell's going on and we're [TS]

  the gender like somehow we do it right [TS]

  so I I desperately want to see this [TS]

  Avenue per shirt but pursuit in every [TS]

  every way by third party application [TS]

  developers by Apple experimenting and [TS]

  yes by Apple doing things in the OS and [TS]

  releasing larger iOS devices and for all [TS]

  you multi iOS device users now you're [TS]

  butchering I kind of say more power to [TS]

  you because you are kind of like the [TS]

  steampunk of multiple windows because [TS]

  you like there's basically there's steam [TS]

  powered their physical manifestations of [TS]

  windows and the ugly and dirty and grimy [TS]

  Anna made of brass but you like him so [TS]

  go for it add some beard oil Wow John I [TS]

  love you that was incredible of my word [TS]

  I feel like this episode's done we're [TS]

  done goodnight everybody that's not I [TS]

  mean it's over dude do you guys know [TS]

  what I was saying with the multiple and [TS]

  yeah I know how were you guys fought [TS]

  multi devices versus multiple windows I [TS]

  know you're not as going on multiple [TS]

  windows I am ultimate devices is a [TS]

  terrible solution to this problem it is [TS]

  you know in many in in some contexts if [TS]

  you're trying to do certain things as an [TS]

  iOS power user sometimes it's the only [TS]

  solution of the problem but you know III [TS]

  think and and granted you know to be [TS]

  fair [TS]

  to the multipad lifestyle people I don't [TS]

  think this is the only reason they do [TS]

  that it's not just to have two different [TS]

  applications right at the same time [TS]

  there's other reasons why they would [TS]

  have multiple devices for you know same [TS]

  reason that many of us have multiple [TS]

  macs like you know to have like a big [TS]

  one and a small one for travel versus [TS]

  home you know stuff like that so all [TS]

  those things aside and I and honestly I [TS]

  think running two apps side-by-side on [TS]

  two different iPads is probably a fairly [TS]

  uncommon use of multiple devices that [TS]

  from the people who have them but if you [TS]

  can picture a future of a future version [TS]

  of ipad multitasking where you could [TS]

  just resize the apps not just with the [TS]

  split view that we have now where you [TS]

  just you can have at most two apps on [TS]

  screen if you don't count picture and [TS]

  picture video playback as one of them [TS]

  you have at most 2 f's on screen and [TS]

  they can only be arranged left and right [TS]

  in just different split sizes that are [TS]

  like three different preset sizes that [TS]

  they can possibly be that's very limited [TS]

  it's a lot better than having no multi [TS]

  window environment on on the iPad like [TS]

  we had before iOS what was at nine that [TS]

  out of that it's a lot better than that [TS]

  but it's it's not nearly as powerful as [TS]

  having a more freeform system like [TS]

  overlapping windows or just more the [TS]

  even if it has to only be tiling windows [TS]

  and so they can't ever overlap even if [TS]

  that's the case ipad screens are a lot [TS]

  bigger than phones and any universal app [TS]

  is made to scale from an iphone 5s all [TS]

  the way up to an ipad 12.9 why can't you [TS]

  have like six windows on screen like [TS]

  have it be like a three by two grid on [TS]

  the 12 point nine inch each one would be [TS]

  about the size of a moderately sized [TS]

  iphone why couldn't you do something [TS]

  like that like have six apps open at [TS]

  once or have four apps open at once [TS]

  we're there are all small rectangles or [TS]

  something like that like I feel like [TS]

  there's so many more places I've had [TS]

  multitasking can go and granted there's [TS]

  a few fundamentals that really need to [TS]

  be built first before that makes a lot [TS]

  of sense things like drag and drop and [TS]

  some kind of more coherent file system [TS]

  access in some form but ultimately [TS]

  multiple applications being open at once [TS]

  not just two of them is is the direction [TS]

  not just two of them is is the direction [TS]

  this has to go for these devices to [TS]

  become more productivity powerhouses [TS]

  yeah i think you know John and John I [TS]

  think that Mike and in cgpgrey would [TS]

  both say that that this is a terrible [TS]

  solution like I I think one of you said [TS]

  that a minute ago but it's important [TS]

  since they're not here to defend [TS]

  themselves to stress that I don't think [TS]

  that they love the solution it's just [TS]

  that they do love iOS and they're [TS]

  hamstrung by the the things that iOS [TS]

  lets you do and I feel similarly I mean [TS]

  I do love my iPad but I've been really [TS]

  really strongly kicking around the idea [TS]

  of getting a macbook adorable expressly [TS]

  because I want something that's [TS]

  effectively as portable as an iPad or as [TS]

  close as I can get to that but that [TS]

  doesn't make me feel hamstrung every [TS]

  time I use it and to me the best answer [TS]

  to that question is a macbook adorable [TS]

  for them I don't think they feel near as [TS]

  hamstrung in general the problem is [TS]

  simply that they can only do with so [TS]

  many things at once and so for them it [TS]

  does make sense to live the multipad [TS]

  lifestyle I think it's a little bit [TS]

  kooky but just because I think that [TS]

  doesn't mean that it wouldn't work for [TS]

  them and clearly it does the most common [TS]

  multi-device thing I would imagine is a [TS]

  personal computer style device on your [TS]

  phone because like I said there are [TS]

  there are definite advantages to [TS]

  steampunk windows and one of them is you [TS]

  you a compartmentalize of things so very [TS]

  often it's text messaging whatever your [TS]

  text messaging services of choice text [TS]

  messaging on your phone while doing [TS]

  other things on your computer and your [TS]

  computer may have messages on it or [TS]

  maybe doesn't have whatever app using [TS]

  maybe you don't choose not to get [TS]

  messages but that division of labor [TS]

  you're sitting somewhere you know [TS]

  sitting in a coffee shop typing [TS]

  something on your computer and you get a [TS]

  text message and you look at it on your [TS]

  phone that that's steampunk window it's [TS]

  physically in a different location [TS]

  you're in a portable scenario where you [TS]

  can have a gigantic 30-inch drafting [TS]

  board you know surface book pro like you [TS]

  can't have that you're you're on the go [TS]

  it is a different site line two [TS]

  different focal distance it is a [TS]

  physical device that you used to texting [TS]

  people from all your past texts in the [TS]

  apps that you love our on there using [TS]

  that as a steampunk window to do your [TS]

  you're texting is perfectly valid and [TS]

  probably is an advantage [TS]

  over trying to cram your messages window [TS]

  onto your 12 inch macbook screen next to [TS]

  the thing that you were trying to write [TS]

  in your distraction free writing [TS]

  environment right so like I I get it I [TS]

  get why there is I I do it myself [TS]

  sometimes when I'm at work sometimes at [TS]

  work I will send and receive text [TS]

  messages on my phone even though I could [TS]

  be getting them on my mac screen just [TS]

  because it is a nice [TS]

  compartmentalization of work versus [TS]

  personal you know texting over who's [TS]

  going to pick up what kid from what [TS]

  activity or what you know what I mean [TS]

  like it makes sense to me to do that [TS]

  starts to make less sense when you're in [TS]

  an environment you have a big desk and a [TS]

  raid on your desk you have a series of [TS]

  iOS devices of different sizes because [TS]

  then then I feel like you're [TS]

  compromising in ways in you know who is [TS]

  this a case you're saying like they're [TS]

  using iOS because they want to I [TS]

  understand that and they have to do this [TS]

  because they are limited in their [TS]

  multitasking and a more than anyone [TS]

  would like rich or multitasking so I'm [TS]

  not I'm not slamming them for saying you [TS]

  should just use windows because you [TS]

  can't you can't use it on iOS and if you [TS]

  want to use iOS devices there we're [TS]

  stuck waiting for Apple to innovate [TS]

  there it's just frustrating to me that [TS]

  we seem to be creepy users are [TS]

  organically creeping up on on that [TS]

  solution and that the solution is much [TS]

  bigger iOS device is suitable for a [TS]

  desktop environment that supports [TS]

  something like Windows that gives the [TS]

  user is more flexibility in how they [TS]

  arrange their space everybody does this [TS]

  is one of my big things with all spatial [TS]

  founder and everybody arrange is their [TS]

  workspace especially if it's a job [TS]

  you're doing all the time whether it is [TS]

  a carpenter arranging their tools or an [TS]

  artist arranging their palates and their [TS]

  paints and their brushes and they're [TS]

  easily like and having or a chef setting [TS]

  aside all the ingredients that they're [TS]

  going to you know use in their thing it [TS]

  like everybody arranged is their [TS]

  workspace efficient workers do arrange [TS]

  their workspace we all do it on our [TS]

  computers now we all have different [TS]

  arrangements and different amounts of [TS]

  things and whether use spaces are not [TS]

  our tiling window manager not or [TS]

  maximize everything and flip through [TS]

  them with your fingers or alt tab [TS]

  through things or click like that's the [TS]

  thing that we're going to do matter what [TS]

  we do with we do with windows we do it [TS]

  with our steampunk windows we do it in [TS]

  the physical world and I think no matter [TS]

  what our interface to work is it has to [TS]

  allow us to do that in some way and so [TS]

  you know Mike and teacher be grey and [TS]

  everyone else who live in the multipad [TS]

  lifestyle they're doing it the only way [TS]

  that is available to the [TS]

  with the tools that they like but I [TS]

  think we have to acknowledge the other [TS]

  approach is fairly well proven at this [TS]

  point for a certain set of users it is [TS]

  disproven for a certain set of users as [TS]

  well because we all know that novice [TS]

  users the reason why they love iOS is [TS]

  because doesn't let them have to deal [TS]

  with this crap they don't get all [TS]

  confused by a bunch of windows right but [TS]

  for a certain set of users you know if [TS]

  you were to tell someone that they had [TS]

  to you know do three animation for Pixar [TS]

  about where they weren't allowed to use [TS]

  windows they just had to use everything [TS]

  full screen or a split screen they would [TS]

  have a much harder time getting a job [TS]

  done I would imagine also I mean like [TS]

  one other like side benefit like if [TS]

  Apple were to do windowing on iPads it [TS]

  would also solve a tremendous problem of [TS]

  the iPad app ecosystem where iOS apps [TS]

  are often not very optimized for the [TS]

  iPad or aren't optimized for it at all [TS]

  and sometimes really big apps like [TS]

  Instagram where which famously like [TS]

  still does not have an iPad app and also [TS]

  shut down the API that allowed other [TS]

  iPad apps to exist for them imagine if [TS]

  instead of having the you know the dumb [TS]

  like you know giant letterboxd iPhone [TS]

  simulator version on ipad what if you [TS]

  launched an on ipad optimized app and it [TS]

  just launched in a in an iPhone sized [TS]

  window and you could drag it around and [TS]

  you could have other apps that you could [TS]

  shrink down to that size and tile around [TS]

  your screen if you wanted to like almost [TS]

  every iPad app that is the universal app [TS]

  with its phone version can again it can [TS]

  scale to all these different sizes you [TS]

  could solve problems like this very very [TS]

  well also things like you know when [TS]

  Apple does make larger iPads that [TS]

  there's still a lot of ipad apps that [TS]

  aren't optimized for the 12.9 what if [TS]

  when you launch one of these things on [TS]

  12.9 it just launched in a 9.7 sized [TS]

  window and it was just one of many [TS]

  windows on your screen like there are [TS]

  there are lots of benefits to this and [TS]

  granted there's a lot of you I [TS]

  challenges and a lot of probably [TS]

  technical challenges of things like how [TS]

  do you manage memory for all these [TS]

  different apps that could be you know [TS]

  appearing to be running all at once and [TS]

  be in the foreground all at once and [TS]

  lots of API challenges or things like [TS]

  touch handling and what what kind of [TS]

  gets the attention and what doesn't and [TS]

  there's some weirdness already with like [TS]

  multitasking of like if [TS]

  you have a keyboard connected and you [TS]

  have you know two and you have two [TS]

  different apps open right now during [TS]

  most Destin and you hit a shortcut key [TS]

  on the keyboard which app gets it and [TS]

  right now I think it's just like [TS]

  whatever app you tapped last or [TS]

  something but it's like that but there's [TS]

  no active state on the title bar to [TS]

  indicate which one that is so you just [TS]

  have to know or guess or try it so like [TS]

  if they were to go in a direction like [TS]

  this that that brought like full-blown [TS]

  windowing in some form or full-blown [TS]

  most as like this to iOS there is a lot [TS]

  of work to be done it's not a small task [TS]

  it is a this is not something they could [TS]

  do in you know likely one release you [TS]

  know this is like a massive undertaking [TS]

  and they've already done some of it but [TS]

  doing a more freeform system Michael [TS]

  we're describing would require a lot [TS]

  more of it but I think the result would [TS]

  be pretty great and an incredibly [TS]

  powerful and really revive the ipad for [TS]

  productivity use which it does seem like [TS]

  Apple needs something to do that that [TS]

  would be great and that would also you [TS]

  know if we if we do it the way I say [TS]

  we're like you know not optimized apps [TS]

  with just launched in old device sized [TS]

  windows that could also solve this major [TS]

  market and software ecosystem problem [TS]

  that the ipad also faces so like this [TS]

  would be a really great solution in a [TS]

  number of ways the only question is like [TS]

  would they ever do it would they would [TS]

  it be worth devoting the resources to [TS]

  and would they then just be recreating [TS]

  the mac poorly you know like they like [TS]

  the old lisp joke like or unix or [TS]

  whatever for purple eyes everything [TS]

  later be recreating the mac better they [TS]

  should be learning from the mac and you [TS]

  know making it better faster like you [TS]

  know the Six Million Dollar Man type of [TS]

  thing they should like they trying to [TS]

  slowly convert the mac and do a thing [TS]

  like into a thing that is better than [TS]

  mac is difficult but iOS you know is a [TS]

  relatively clean slate they they can [TS]

  reconsider everything they can only [TS]

  bring over the things that are good they [TS]

  can make different compromises they can [TS]

  skew it in a particular direction they [TS]

  can make they can try to make it so [TS]

  users who can't deal with lots of [TS]

  windows don't have to like make get [TS]

  shave off the sharp corners because you [TS]

  see everyone's seen someone struggle to [TS]

  manage windows on a personal computer [TS]

  but you know the lowercase W again [TS]

  whether it's on the Mac or on the pc [TS]

  even in on the pc where everything is [TS]

  full screen and people are alt tabbing [TS]

  there's still some confusion about [TS]

  floating things in layering and dialog [TS]

  boxes that appear and where did it go [TS]

  and mission a mission control and [TS]

  formerly expose and all that was [TS]

  supposed to help with that and all those [TS]

  are great things those are all things to [TS]

  learn from trying the right compromise [TS]

  for iOS devices where most of the time [TS]

  it works the way most people want it to [TS]

  but that the more advanced users have [TS]

  the ability to to get the productivity [TS]

  advantages that these people are [TS]

  currently getting with multiple physical [TS]

  devices that's that's the bounce that [TS]

  Apple should strike and I think it's [TS]

  great to do that on iOS where you are [TS]

  not constrained by even making something [TS]

  like Stevens thing here it looks like a [TS]

  Mac window who says the title bar so the [TS]

  right thing who says the window should [TS]

  have window witters what about scroll [TS]

  bar like you rethink everything but yeah [TS]

  I'm thinking broadly speaking like you [TS]

  were saying applications running [TS]

  simultaneously as we get more and more [TS]

  RAM becomes much more viable and [TS]

  figuring out what that means as screens [TS]

  get bigger letting people divide the [TS]

  screen space the way they want to divide [TS]

  it up among the applications that they [TS]

  want to run and then eventually gets [TS]

  indecisive the right approach to this [TS]

  thing what about preserving the [TS]

  arrangement because sometimes you do [TS]

  side by side windows but then you go off [TS]

  and do something else how do you get [TS]

  back into that side-by-side arrangement [TS]

  or maybe you want to go back to just one [TS]

  application not be in the side-by-side [TS]

  arrangement but there are so many things [TS]

  that are still undetermined and its [TS]

  young and they haven't made a lot of [TS]

  decisions yet so I think it's fine but [TS]

  you know as Marco pointed out they [TS]

  already painted themselves into weird [TS]

  corners where like oh we allowed most [TS]

  buildings on the screen and we allow [TS]

  keyboard shortcuts but not we never [TS]

  thought of a way to indicate which one [TS]

  is that has the focus so already we're [TS]

  in a weird situation like you should [TS]

  they should think more of those through [TS]

  before they take the nap step maybe they [TS]

  are maybe like we don't want to do this [TS]

  we have an awesome idea that's going to [TS]

  be out in five years and we don't want [TS]

  you stomping on it but I think it's [TS]

  silly I think you should let third-party [TS]

  developers go nuts and figure out what [TS]

  works and maybe you got some good ideas [TS]

  from them we are sponsored this week by [TS]

  Squarespace make your next move with a [TS]

  beautiful website from Squarespace [TS]

  almost everything we do today uses a [TS]

  website you need a website for any kind [TS]

  of online store or blog or portfolio or [TS]

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  asked almost everything that you would [TS]

  do needs a website these days but it's [TS]

  not really worth installing a whole CMS [TS]

  and building the entire thing from the [TS]

  ground up and having to manage a server [TS]

  and having to manage software updates [TS]

  and everything else and then having [TS]

  having to hire somebody to custom design [TS]

  it for you that's so much overhead and [TS]

  hassle and cost and time but really you [TS]

  should just have the website be taken [TS]

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  to your actual project that you're [TS]

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  Squarespace lets you do that whether [TS]

  you're making a site for yourself or for [TS]

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  probably know how to make websites you [TS]

  probably had people in your life asked [TS]

  you to make them for them Squarespace is [TS]

  so much better than any other option out [TS]

  there for making most websites because [TS]

  they have built-in templates they have [TS]

  built-in widgets and capabilities so [TS]

  much is built in that you can do a [TS]

  remarkable amount in less than an hour [TS]

  like I challenge you next time you have [TS]

  to make a website for anybody for [TS]

  yourself or somebody else try it on [TS]

  Squarespace first give me the benefit of [TS]

  the doubt here try it there first and [TS]

  just see how far you get in an hour or [TS]

  less even and I bet you're gonna get so [TS]

  far that you're going to how you know [TS]

  what this is done like this or you can [TS]

  finish it like in another hour then [TS]

  you're done that's it no matter what [TS]

  your skill level whether you're a novice [TS]

  or whether you're a web programmer you [TS]

  can get so much done with squares but [TS]

  you can make a beautiful website it [TS]

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  stays up because they keep they may they [TS]

  manage it for you they support it if [TS]

  you're making for somebody else is very [TS]

  important they support it you don't have [TS]

  to worry about all the backend stuff [TS]

  they take care of it and your site looks [TS]

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  purchase make your next move with [TS]

  squarespace ah speaking of ipad clothes [TS]

  a full god running it's so much anger [TS]

  from the ipad people I'm so sorry [TS]

  everyone we shouldn't we also had good [TS]

  things about the ipad yeah the good [TS]

  thing is like the cortex hosts have now [TS]

  moved on from talking about the multipad [TS]

  lifestyle now they're both just slowly [TS]

  becoming programmers but they're both in [TS]

  denial of that fact [TS]

  they both keep inching more and more [TS]

  towards like guys you're actually just [TS]

  becoming programmers and it's okay and [TS]

  that's good there it turns out there's a [TS]

  way to automate our computing tasks you [TS]

  just write these little things you could [TS]

  call them I don't know programs yeah it [TS]

  reminds me of some what did I say [TS]

  somewhere when some business snark [TS]

  website thing talking about [TS]

  specifications first off our projects [TS]

  like if you read the requirements write [TS]

  and you dreaded requirements and you [TS]

  typically requirements like I want to do [TS]

  blah blah blah and it's like that's too [TS]

  vague I don't know exactly what you want [TS]

  so you go back and forth about the [TS]

  requirements do you know how do you want [TS]

  to work know how do you really want to [TS]

  work your honor barclay guess work like [TS]

  that and eventually the business person [TS]

  getting frustrated and it's like look [TS]

  just I'm going to tell you exactly how I [TS]

  wanted to work with no ambiguity and [TS]

  it's like if you do that what you've [TS]

  done is wrote a program yeah eventually [TS]

  it to specify it that's what programmers [TS]

  do like people just want to specify it [TS]

  and like and the adi adi or start all [TS]

  the details the computer you can't yadda [TS]

  yadda you have to say no how exactly do [TS]

  you want to work all right I'm going to [TS]

  tell you exactly how you wanted to work [TS]

  in every kid in every condition here's [TS]

  what you can do both love but it's like [TS]

  that's program that's called programming [TS]

  you were you what you want to be a [TS]

  programmer now so go ahead all right [TS]

  thank you you can very quickly find [TS]

  yourself becoming a programmer with as [TS]

  accidental pouring podcast become a [TS]

  programmer without knowing it because [TS]

  eventually you'd be like getting down to [TS]

  a level of detail were you telling it [TS]

  I'm gonna tell you about every possible [TS]

  eventuality what you should do that's [TS]

  programming sure does know just does [TS]

  what you tell him what I love how like I [TS]

  think I think Mike in particular is in [TS]

  this isn't a special denial place here [TS]

  of like he makes fun of what not making [TS]

  fun but like he talks about the way [TS]

  developers use the terminal and and just [TS]

  geeks use the terminal as this kind of [TS]

  like crazy opaque thing that is this you [TS]

  know incredibly you know geeky obscure [TS]

  and then they'd like to talk about you [TS]

  like using workflow against Web API is [TS]

  to automate certain times like it's the [TS]

  same thing like it's just different to [TS]

  different era of the exact same thing [TS]

  like the same kind of learning curve [TS]

  really the same kind of you know similar [TS]

  kind of capabilities as usual the old [TS]

  like us think the old way was better but [TS]

  you know it's really the same kinds of [TS]

  things yeah although I think Mike my [TS]

  understanding of what Mike is doing is [TS]

  that he's largely cribbing what others [TS]

  like Federico or cgpgrey have done and [TS]

  modifying them a little bit but to build [TS]

  on what you were saying so on the [TS]

  surface you know it sounds like Oh [TS]

  Mike's not really a program at all but [TS]

  really that's how all programmers work [TS]

  is they take something that gets you [TS]

  eighty percent of the way there and in [TS]

  fix what you need in order to get the [TS]

  rest of the way and so I agree with you [TS]

  and Federico to me is is the king of [TS]

  this oh yes he's writing like ridiculous [TS]

  Python scripts and these like hyper [TS]

  involved workflows with like potentially [TS]

  even recursion within them and it's just [TS]

  he's a developer we actually Federico [TS]

  and I in a happy way had this fight like [TS]

  i don't know to two months ago where I [TS]

  said don't dude you are developer at [TS]

  this point like don't even try to [TS]

  pretend you're not in and he didn't want [TS]

  to hear it not in a jerky way he just [TS]

  like oh I'm not a developer I don't know [TS]

  how to do the stuff you guys do like [TS]

  you're doing it it's not even a question [TS]

  it's already happening in the same way [TS]

  like that our friend dr. Drang is you [TS]

  know like dr. drying post on leading [TS]

  crew calm and like he's not a programmer [TS]

  by trade but he writes tons of scripts [TS]

  most of which are in Python to do all [TS]

  sorts of things for his work and so like [TS]

  he wildly while he probably does not [TS]

  consider himself a programmer he uses [TS]

  programming he knows a programming [TS]

  language and he uses it to get tasks [TS]

  done for his work and there's lots of [TS]

  room for that type of person you know [TS]

  just like look I mean like Microsoft [TS]

  Office has has forever had its macro [TS]

  language right it's that's the same [TS]

  thing that's just visual basic like it's [TS]

  the same that that's also programming my [TS]

  first job was programming vba in a giant [TS]

  Excel spreadsheet for some company to [TS]

  save that much time like that's that's a [TS]

  lot of what programming in the world [TS]

  would actually is like people doing like [TS]

  little custom or one off things that is [TS]

  programming there's kind of this [TS]

  continuum of like power users like hey [TS]

  first the first thing you learn as i [TS]

  could power user is you might learn like [TS]

  a keyboard shortcut for some common [TS]

  stuff and ohmygod this is great and then [TS]

  eventually you might learn some kind of [TS]

  automation of something like you know [TS]

  first you kind of figure like how do you [TS]

  do manual work faster right that's at [TS]

  the keyboard shortcut approach then you [TS]

  start figuring out [TS]

  like how do I actually use the computers [TS]

  immense speed and power to do things [TS]

  faster than I could do them manually and [TS]

  that's me checking it's like the basic [TS]

  things like batch operations in pro apps [TS]

  on the mac you'd have things like [TS]

  Automator and on ipad yo things like [TS]

  workflow and then eventually I feel like [TS]

  the next epithet is like no you're [TS]

  actually just writing code if some sort [TS]

  whether it's just a simple stealing a [TS]

  shell script or a javascript thing or [TS]

  whether it's actually like you know a [TS]

  Ruby or Python like what we'd call it a [TS]

  real language script or app to do [TS]

  something custom like this is just these [TS]

  are all just points on the the power [TS]

  user curve and being a programmer is not [TS]

  like some special boundary that you have [TS]

  to like go to college to know how to do [TS]

  no it's just like it's just the next [TS]

  step on that curve after you've used [TS]

  tools like workflow or Automator and you [TS]

  kind of want a little bit more [TS]

  customization or a little bit more power [TS]

  and then you get into these things that [TS]

  really are programming you just might [TS]

  not realize it until after you've been [TS]

  doing it for a while yeah Mike and [TS]

  fatigue would both be making hypercard [TS]

  stacks 30 years ago okay I don't you [TS]

  guys don't remember that error but I use [TS]

  hyper card yep same here there used to [TS]

  be many more back back before Apple and [TS]

  most of the rest of the industry gave up [TS]

  on the idea of trying to make [TS]

  programming easy enough for people who [TS]

  didn't want to be into programming there [TS]

  are many many attempts Apple script is [TS]

  one of them to try to make programming [TS]

  more accessible to the masses with [TS]

  something that is farther along that [TS]

  curve that actually is a real [TS]

  programming language but is this a [TS]

  language that looks friendly or whatever [TS]

  and lots of people into hyper card [TS]

  stacks and like it's another accidental [TS]

  programmer thing we're sure people made [TS]

  hypercar stack so most people it wasn't [TS]

  easy enough for them to tackle many [TS]

  people who didn't consider themselves [TS]

  programmers were like they weren't [TS]

  intimidated by hypercard and like oh [TS]

  i'll go through these tutorials so i can [TS]

  make a button new i click the button [TS]

  into makes a beeping noise like and you [TS]

  know and for some what you're trying to [TS]

  make a button on a mac of that era was [TS]

  much harder if you were using the mac [TS]

  toolbox and it wasn't hypercard and so [TS]

  they could be successful pretty quickly [TS]

  and for the people who had the who were [TS]

  into that who like the [TS]

  they never thought of themselves as [TS]

  programmers but it turns out if you [TS]

  introduce them to it fast forward three [TS]

  months and they're writing this [TS]

  incredibly complicated hypercard stack [TS]

  using hyper talk like a real programmer [TS]

  and they have suddenly found themselves [TS]

  as not everybody who does it's not like [TS]

  it turns people into programs it reveals [TS]

  programmers that were always there right [TS]

  and they just you know what happens with [TS]

  someone who is who's like just naturally [TS]

  wants to do this they start off with the [TS]

  beeping button and you just you just [TS]

  step away for like a couple weeks and [TS]

  you come back as like what have you done [TS]

  and like they have made this entire [TS]

  world for themselves and they have no [TS]

  formal education they don't know what a [TS]

  subject team is they don't know any [TS]

  theory about data structures are but [TS]

  they're like deriving from first [TS]

  principles the basics of programming and [TS]

  hyper talk and you know doing incredible [TS]

  I saw it all the time doing incredible [TS]

  things and it's like someone who runs [TS]

  the general store makes a hyper card [TS]

  stack to do their inventory and it's [TS]

  like you may not know it but you are now [TS]

  a programmer and this is the thing you [TS]

  could have done as a profession even [TS]

  though you have no formal education in [TS]

  it and really still don't quite know [TS]

  what you're doing in the formal sense [TS]

  but you are you are rediscovering the [TS]

  rudiments of program with no instruction [TS]

  from anywhere else really by having a [TS]

  box in front of you and knowing some [TS]

  basic things and that is that is a [TS]

  beautiful thing to see and I love [TS]

  hearing stories of like places that are [TS]

  still running hypercard stacks and like [TS]

  their mac Aziz just because like they [TS]

  run their entire business on and [TS]

  somebody wrote it years ago I guess [TS]

  that's not like this is more [TS]

  heartwarming because I know it it's not [TS]

  quite as heart wrong people still [TS]

  burning their payroll and COBOL or [TS]

  whatever but I think why do kids took [TS]

  care of a lot of those but but either [TS]

  way like that for people who are [TS]

  listening who think they will never be [TS]

  programmers it that's possible you may [TS]

  never be it but it's like it's like a [TS]

  there's a reason people caught like the [TS]

  permit roaring bug like you get bitten [TS]

  by it and you just find this happens to [TS]

  all of us here on this podcast I'm sure [TS]

  and everyone else into computers at some [TS]

  point you get exposed to something and [TS]

  it just you know it sinks its teeth into [TS]

  you and you lose track of time you lose [TS]

  track of the years and you realize this [TS]

  is just the whole world that you bury [TS]

  yourself into some people are exposed to [TS]

  the exact same thing or like yeah not [TS]

  for me right but the distinction would [TS]

  you tell most people has nothing to do [TS]

  with education or even desire it is just [TS]

  like how their brains work if is [TS]

  programming addicting to you you will [TS]

  know that pretty quickly and you look at [TS]

  something like petite [TS]

  guess what programming is addicted to [TS]

  him like you would not be doing these [TS]

  things if he it like it he's bitten so [TS]

  hard but it's like the he's mad with the [TS]

  power of being able to tell the computer [TS]

  to do what he wants it to do in a series [TS]

  of sophisticated ways breaking down the [TS]

  problem into smaller pieces Rican [TS]

  binding them right he's bitten by it so [TS]

  hard just because he's not writing C [TS]

  doesn't mean that he is not a bitten by [TS]

  the pura buggin be become a programmer [TS]

  and I feel like that's the whole beauty [TS]

  of computers is like when you when you [TS]

  break that barrier between like when I [TS]

  was saying on my curve about like when [TS]

  you're just doing manual things faster [TS]

  versus when you have the computer start [TS]

  working for you and way faster than you [TS]

  ever could manually the whole beauty of [TS]

  computers is the ability to cross that [TS]

  line the ability to do that like when [TS]

  Slyke this the famous Steve Jobs quote [TS]

  about the computer is a bicycle for the [TS]

  mind like it's not because you know that [TS]

  you all the shortcut keys to do things [TS]

  repetitively over and over again it's [TS]

  because you could just like put in some [TS]

  just the right kind of input and this [TS]

  computer can just skyrocket past you [TS]

  executing that code way way way faster [TS]

  and more reliable and more consistently [TS]

  than you ever could or doing things that [TS]

  you could never do in a practical amount [TS]

  of time like and it's just like one of [TS]

  the reasons why I get frustrated when [TS]

  things like you know iOS move or start [TS]

  and directions where things really [TS]

  locked down and it's hard to do that [TS]

  kind of stuff it's because I feel like [TS]

  that's kind of missing or kind of like [TS]

  blowing the whole advantage that [TS]

  computers have given us as a society [TS]

  like the whole point of computers is to [TS]

  enable humans to do think to to have [TS]

  these kind of you know information based [TS]

  tasks done in in ways and at speeds and [TS]

  volumes that we could never do on our [TS]

  own like through manual calculations or [TS]

  anything else and for any computer [TS]

  platform to be truly empowering to its [TS]

  users it has to allow that in some way [TS]

  and hopefully in a reasonably easy and [TS]

  capable way and efforts to do that on [TS]

  iOS are really really held back by [TS]

  just limitations of iOS and things like [TS]

  workflow and python is starlike they [TS]

  these things have existed and do exist [TS]

  and are good for people but there's so [TS]

  much further to go to make them even [TS]

  just match the level of power and [TS]

  sophistication that regular people can [TS]

  achieve on you know windows or a Mac let [TS]

  alone like on you know future things [TS]

  that we might think of even better ways [TS]

  to do things and so that that's kind of [TS]

  like it kind of hurts me philosophically [TS]

  whenever it appears the computing [TS]

  platform is going in the opposite [TS]

  direction and what most Lee's people are [TS]

  doing by the way like in the continuum [TS]

  is that that you can use tools made by [TS]

  other people which is what the app store [TS]

  is great like gives regular people [TS]

  access to tools other people have made [TS]

  for doing common test hey so you've you [TS]

  know you're taking the inventory of all [TS]

  the books that are on your shelves [TS]

  there's an app that you can just point [TS]

  your phone at it and but look up the you [TS]

  know someone it's over like it's a tool [TS]

  to do a job better right the the next [TS]

  step along that is I don't see any tool [TS]

  that does the thing that I wanted to do [TS]

  I'm going to make my own tool so it's [TS]

  not just that they're automating [TS]

  repetitive tasks but that they are [TS]

  building a tool for them to do whatever [TS]

  real-world tests they're doing whether [TS]

  it's managing their business or doing [TS]

  their hobby keeping track of their model [TS]

  trains or controlling their model trains [TS]

  or whatever like they don't see the [TS]

  thing that they want in the world and [TS]

  they realize they can make this thing do [TS]

  what they wanted to do it so they build [TS]

  tool for themselves and it doesn't mean [TS]

  they have to suddenly become an app [TS]

  developer and sell that thing or [TS]

  whatever it's just like the people use a [TS]

  FileMaker database to manage their you [TS]

  know retail store or something where [TS]

  they sale cameras they don't consider [TS]

  that they're making a tool to do to [TS]

  accomplish some other task that's just [TS]

  another point in the line using other [TS]

  people's tools versus saying God no one [TS]

  else makes this tool or the tools they [TS]

  make aren't to my liking and I can make [TS]

  my own tool to do it fatigue is [TS]

  essentially making his own tools for his [TS]

  work flow because there's no existing [TS]

  thing that integrates all the different [TS]

  pieces the way he wants them to do and [TS]

  he has specific needs about it so you [TS]

  know it's not you know in some cases he [TS]

  is automating something you have to do [TS]

  manual but other cases like he's it's [TS]

  not a plication development but it's [TS]

  it's tool building and we all do that [TS]

  smart little monkeys that use a stick to [TS]

  you know hit something instead of our [TS]

  hands because the stick is better right [TS]

  you know it's all you know a bicycle for [TS]

  the mind has more poetry [TS]

  then a wooden stick a monkey with a [TS]

  stick yeah or that you know the muggy [TS]

  with the bone from 2001 but that's [TS]

  basically a lot of boils down to and [TS]

  taking away the ability to or you know [TS]

  not taking it away but making the [TS]

  barrier to making your old tools mean [TS]

  like either you get to use tools other [TS]

  people made giant giant gap Xcode that [TS]

  gap is too big yeah it's too big for [TS]

  most people to cross and there it you [TS]

  know the apps like workflow show that [TS]

  there is a Raeven Automator or simple [TS]

  scripting languages or anything like [TS]

  that or poor HyperCard all that stuff [TS]

  even though most of the experiments [TS]

  failed in what they thought the goal [TS]

  would be like everyone's going to be a [TS]

  programmer nope that's not going to [TS]

  happen right but you do need something [TS]

  on that middle tier for the people who [TS]

  are never going to graduate all apps to [TS]

  being a full-fledged programmer and [TS]

  using Xcode but they don't need to they [TS]

  just need something in the middle that [TS]

  can you know they can let them make the [TS]

  tools to make their life better even [TS]

  though their goal in life is not to be [TS]

  an application developer and there never [TS]

  need to make something as code and [TS]

  submit to the App Store so Apple and [TS]

  education bringing back a slight slight [TS]

  sidetrack yeah after that that 45 [TS]

  minutes I track Oh was that the topic [TS]

  believe it or not because then we got it [TS]

  just saying how people with ipads irri [TS]

  mad at us and we just got buried bag and [TS]

  iPads again it's right there all secret [TS]

  programmers all right that's right so [TS]

  anyway so Apple and education now [TS]

  there's new york times article that says [TS]

  that while the headline is apples [TS]

  devices lose luster in American [TS]

  classrooms and I didn't get a chance to [TS]

  read the article but my understanding is [TS]

  basically that there are fewer devices [TS]

  being shipped to schools for from Apple [TS]

  it seems like Microsoft is slightly on [TS]

  the up in Google thanks to Chromebooks [TS]

  are is way on the up which is great I [TS]

  guess for Google and kind of a bummer [TS]

  for Apple since this used to be their [TS]

  stronghold I mean I think I can speak [TS]

  for Marco and saying my only exposure to [TS]

  a Mac or to an apple too was at school [TS]

  like I didn't have any friends that had [TS]

  one it was always at school that I was [TS]

  exposed to it and that seems to be [TS]

  changing how it seems to be all [TS]

  Chromebooks but well I don't know my my [TS]

  experience was slightly different in [TS]

  that my first exposure to Apple [TS]

  computers was indeed at school [TS]

  it was to the Apple too in the early 90s [TS]

  the heyday of the Apple too yeah my [TS]

  school was so poor that the only [TS]

  computers they could they had were like [TS]

  ancient hand-me-down Apple tues most of [TS]

  which were not even like you know the [TS]

  the later models they were like you know [TS]

  the old like you know green and black [TS]

  want like you know before color and [TS]

  things like memory uh they were it was [TS]

  it was a pretty pretty basic but I love [TS]

  them because they were the only computer [TS]

  had ever used up to that point they were [TS]

  amazing even in like nineteen ninety-two [TS]

  whenever that was but and then after [TS]

  that like wow I a few years later I went [TS]

  to a different school and they had just [TS]

  pcs because at that point that was like [TS]

  that was like 93 ish a 94 and by that [TS]

  point like you know max I think we're [TS]

  too expensive for most schools at that [TS]

  point and I think like most schools [TS]

  there was like we had like there was one [TS]

  Mac in one of the computer labs that you [TS]

  weren't allowed to use unless you were [TS]

  in some kind of like graphic design [TS]

  class that like they they could use it [TS]

  but otherwise it was all pcs for the [TS]

  same reason that we're part about to [TS]

  talk about which is cost because when [TS]

  you're in schools cost is a really [TS]

  really big factor so that I mean this [TS]

  article the news in this article on the [TS]

  graphs in this article it's not a [TS]

  surprise to Apple Apple knows all these [TS]

  things Apple knows how much it's selling [TS]

  apple knows how much is competitors [TS]

  selling and the graph they show is only [TS]

  from twenty twelve to twenty sixteen so [TS]

  it's not a long span but they show [TS]

  basically because Google comes out of [TS]

  nowhere basically like zero market share [TS]

  some time in two thousand ten or eleven [TS]

  and flies past both Apple and Microsoft [TS]

  or more or less flat flies past them [TS]

  around 2014 and now is at like four [TS]

  times their sales volume in terms of [TS]

  units right so that's in a very short [TS]

  period of time Google comes out of [TS]

  nowhere and becomes the dominant player [TS]

  in the market and the fact that Apple [TS]

  knows that this happened because they [TS]

  keep track of their own stuff but [TS]

  seemingly has not had a strong response [TS]

  to it I know we talked about the pro [TS]

  market mostly on this program but [TS]

  imagine we were you know instead we were [TS]

  very interested in the education market [TS]

  we would be complaining [TS]

  that Apple has faced the strong [TS]

  competitor in the form of Google for [TS]

  many years now and it's reaction to it [TS]

  has been half-hearted features to let [TS]

  more than one person use an iPad at the [TS]

  same time by logging in and out and [TS]

  storing crap on iCloud and some [TS]

  improvement and stuff and a bunch of new [TS]

  different shapes and sizes of iPads [TS]

  which all seem like they're good and [TS]

  fine kind of like their efforts to add [TS]

  like multitasking stuff the iPad in a [TS]

  different realm but if you look at the [TS]

  you know has this made them competitive [TS]

  again in the education market or schools [TS]

  to kick in the bot answer Google still [TS]

  kicking about if you measure things in [TS]

  terms of unit sales maybe apple doesn't [TS]

  measure that maybe I don't care what the [TS]

  hell the unit sales are we're making all [TS]

  the money we make all the profit that is [TS]

  I guess a reasonable place to be in but [TS]

  when it comes to education I have to [TS]

  think that you shouldn't really view it [TS]

  as a profit Center not that you [TS]

  shouldn't make money on it but like the [TS]

  one of the most important things Apple [TS]

  is getting additive is just what Marco [TS]

  talked about in case talked about in me [TS]

  too like we saw Apple computers in [TS]

  school and it doesn't mean that we're [TS]

  going to grow up to only use Apple [TS]

  computers but it sure as hell doesn't [TS]

  hurt being familiar with them getting [TS]

  comfortable with them conceptualising [TS]

  computers in terms of what is presented [TS]

  to you like this is what a computer is [TS]

  so you know these multiple generations [TS]

  of students who are growing up using [TS]

  google docs in school and using [TS]

  Chromebooks maybe they're conceptualized [TS]

  Chromebooks as the equivalent of the [TS]

  crappy Apple tues that are crappy [TS]

  computers they would never buy for [TS]

  themselves that are pieces a junk that [TS]

  are managed by the school and they have [TS]

  to use her schoolwork but they are [TS]

  becoming familiar with Google Docs and [TS]

  they are associating Google with [TS]

  computing in a way that there used to be [TS]

  associating apple with computing you [TS]

  know so there are pluses and minuses to [TS]

  being stigmatized as the computer I had [TS]

  to use in school but I think if Apple [TS]

  again if Apple cares about the education [TS]

  market at all it should not be happy to [TS]

  have its unit sales be flat over the [TS]

  course the same course of time where a [TS]

  competitor comes from zero to squash [TS]

  them by factor of four like I don't [TS]

  think that's a good position to be in [TS]

  the market now maybe apple doesn't care [TS]

  and they're willing to just let that [TS]

  ride but how many markets are we going [TS]

  to look at and say Apple doesn't really [TS]

  care that much [TS]

  not a big deal like what does Apple [TS]

  really care but it's is just phones [TS]

  because even in the phone market they're [TS]

  still making all the money and sell lots [TS]

  of phones I think doing a great job with [TS]

  their phone hardware but they're also [TS]

  getting a butt-kicking unit sales there [TS]

  you know by an increasing percentage by [TS]

  this larger more open platform so I [TS]

  don't know what to think Apple stock is [TS]

  way up the iphone is awesome everybody [TS]

  loves it I love it but when I look at [TS]

  education of the program are kits maybe [TS]

  it's just a salad for the Apple that [TS]

  used to be but boy things are sure [TS]

  changed I feel like both education and [TS]

  the pro markets are places that you go [TS]

  when you when you don't have the [TS]

  consumer market they're kind of their [TS]

  these nice like holdouts that if you can [TS]

  if you can get market share their you [TS]

  can have a reasonably sustainable [TS]

  business even if you you have lost or [TS]

  you never even gain ground in the [TS]

  consumer market and so when Apple was [TS]

  doing poorly in like the 90s and stuff [TS]

  they were they retreated to those [TS]

  markets because with the education you [TS]

  know and pros just like there's like [TS]

  there's special needs and you can deploy [TS]

  a sales force tactically to like you [TS]

  need a you know a relatively small [TS]

  number of very big sales to succeed in [TS]

  these markets and that's not necessarily [TS]

  easy to get but that's easier than [TS]

  convincing the entire consumer shopping [TS]

  public to buy your stuff if they aren't [TS]

  already interested in it you know and so [TS]

  you know Apple I feel like Apple went [TS]

  these markets not because they thought [TS]

  they were especially important [TS]

  necessarily for things like you know [TS]

  your kids are going to use it what they [TS]

  are familiar with but because they were [TS]

  the only ones willing to buy apple stuff [TS]

  for a long time and now that that's no [TS]

  longer the case Apple is seemingly being [TS]

  more managed by numbers these days which [TS]

  is unfortunate if that's true but that [TS]

  is for how it looks and these days it [TS]

  you know because they are popular with [TS]

  consumers by so much that they that they [TS]

  can kind of afford to throw away less [TS]

  profitable market segments that is [TS]

  basically what they appear to be doing [TS]

  regardless of whatever Tim Cook's vague [TS]

  statement of the week is about how much [TS]

  they still care about us the reality is [TS]

  that school [TS]

  rules are especially these days pretty [TS]

  hard to make money i mean again like [TS]

  apples heyday in schools back like in [TS]

  like the late 90s and stuff that was [TS]

  also at a time or you know early min-soo [TS]

  that was also a time when technology was [TS]

  new and novel and schools were getting [TS]

  all sorts of these funding grants for [TS]

  going and getting computers you know and [TS]

  granted not every school but there was a [TS]

  lot of like other people's money being [TS]

  poured into like we need to get our kids [TS]

  and technology and it was i feel like it [TS]

  was probably easier to sell into that [TS]

  environment than it is now that [TS]

  computers are no longer new and cool now [TS]

  it's just a budget item and now it's [TS]

  down to okay we really need things to be [TS]

  cheap and whatever's cheapest and [TS]

  easiest for us to manage and and again [TS]

  cheapest that's what we're going to go [TS]

  with and so i basically i feel like the [TS]

  conditions are very different now that [TS]

  both Apple needs education and prose [TS]

  less than they used to and also in the [TS]

  case of the education market the [TS]

  education market at market I think now [TS]

  is significantly more price driven it [TS]

  specifically with regard to computers [TS]

  than it was 20 years ago you know back [TS]

  when went these things were new and they [TS]

  were always great money coming in i [TS]

  think it was always it was always tight [TS]

  for schools i don't think it's that much [TS]

  of a difference like I I would probably [TS]

  agree that schools or not as well funded [TS]

  as they used to be but I would disagree [TS]

  that price consciousness is a new [TS]

  phenomenon when it comes to computers in [TS]

  schools well and again that was also [TS]

  back back in the 90s to I I feel like [TS]

  the the difference in price was not as [TS]

  big like you know these days I'm these [TS]

  you're killing me these days like the [TS]

  difference in price between a Chromebook [TS]

  and a macbook pro or any or macbook air [TS]

  it's like four times like that's what [TS]

  that's a massive multiplier you can [TS]

  literally get like depending on the [TS]

  model of mac that you select you can get [TS]

  like four to eight Chromebooks for the [TS]

  same price and it was worse when your [TS]

  choice was a Macintosh seƱor an IBM PC [TS]

  believe me or a PC PC clone gateway 2000 [TS]

  or Mac se gateway 2000 or Mac to see I [TS]

  it was it was worse real it was more [TS]

  than like a four to 5x multiplier on the [TS]

  price [TS]

  terrible and the numbers were all bigger [TS]

  right did you remember how much I don't [TS]

  know if you remember how much max used [TS]

  to do you remember how much my Macintosh [TS]

  chassis cost I wasn't there when you [TS]

  bought it no but I I but like I'm like [TS]

  that you like in the 90s a decent pc was [TS]

  about 2,000 bucks all right so I'm gonna [TS]

  do the calculation here I don't know we [TS]

  spent like three or four thousand [TS]

  dollars at least I thought on my beloved [TS]

  pentium pro 100 megahertz mean it was a [TS]

  lot of money that's not to say that all [TS]

  of them were necessarily that much money [TS]

  cuz that was pretty cutting edge at the [TS]

  time and you know it was dad that was [TS]

  buying it for himself and I just never [TS]

  let him use it because I'm a jerk but [TS]

  that thing was not cheap yeah well but [TS]

  and you know and schools wouldn't buy [TS]

  the high-end ones usually you know [TS]

  school or they did have to be conscious [TS]

  of the budget of course but basically my [TS]

  theory is basically that like that not [TS]

  only was the money a little bit easier [TS]

  to justify spending computer if I think [TS]

  they were so new and everyone wanted to [TS]

  get their kids computers but also that [TS]

  you know now the price differences is so [TS]

  vast between them and I don't think it [TS]

  was as vast back there it was for max [TS]

  was mostly because max were so much more [TS]

  expensive so the educational discount [TS]

  the college educational discount from [TS]

  iMac ac30 which again is not a color [TS]

  matte color max were available but this [TS]

  was not a color matte because a [TS]

  monochrome macintosh but was it still a [TS]

  high-end configuration it was more high [TS]

  end than the SEO or the plus which were [TS]

  still for sale but still not like not [TS]

  color which again was a big thing in [TS]

  schools right which is a reason they [TS]

  would buy a color pc right so 1990 ish [TS]

  four thousand three hundred dollars in [TS]

  nineteen eighty nine dollars or nineteen [TS]

  ninety dollars that if we converted to [TS]

  current dollars that's eight thousand [TS]

  six hundred dollars for a monitor pewter [TS]

  no keyboard no keyboard the keyboard was [TS]

  189 and nineteen eighty nine dollars you [TS]

  had to compare the eight thousand six [TS]

  hundred dollars for one monochrome [TS]

  macintosh like the little you know the [TS]

  little you know I kind of like vertical [TS]

  natchitoches thing you could get a [TS]

  gateway computer for less than two [TS]

  thousand dollars in 1989 money the price [TS]

  difference was just as big if not bigger [TS]

  especially because schools need it to [TS]

  have color that's why they all had apple [TS]

  two gs is in them because the Appleton [TS]

  jess is per color nobody but you just [TS]

  you just proved my pool [TS]

  your your priced multiplier was like 2x [TS]

  and I would also say that that the gate [TS]

  would like to get a like a a mid SPECT [TS]

  gateway like that gateway is color [TS]

  though with a big color monitor if I go [TS]

  if I go with like the mac to with a big [TS]

  color monitor it's not for under two [TS]

  thousand dollars in 1990 if that's a mid [TS]

  spec machine it's going to be a little [TS]

  over 2,000 so you're basically you're [TS]

  roughly a 2x multiplier which is very [TS]

  different from a 5x multiplier which is [TS]

  basically we have today I don't we don't [TS]

  have exactly a 5x multiplier now because [TS]

  they get educational discount on these [TS]

  things and don't buy the top dollar [TS]

  macbook so i think that i'm talking like [TS]

  250 bucks vs. like 1200 you're not [TS]

  paying 1200 dots for and they're also [TS]

  not paying 200 videos for other things I [TS]

  call told but anyway if I was go to like [TS]

  the mac to FX like a high-end computer [TS]

  that actually had color which against [TS]

  schools wanted cause it gets way way [TS]

  worse much faster like if you add a [TS]

  monitor just adding that the cost of the [TS]

  monitor to the thing because you just [TS]

  buying the mac but that doesn't come [TS]

  with the monitor and it doesn't come [TS]

  with a keyboard the multiplier was worse [TS]

  for mac vs pc than it is for chromebook [TS]

  vs ipad which is the real comparison you [TS]

  should be doing that chromebook vs [TS]

  macbook pro or something no but I well I [TS]

  think that's the comparison Apple wants [TS]

  people to do i I think Apple wants to [TS]

  present the iPad as the competitor for [TS]

  the Chromebook but in practice I don't [TS]

  think it is I think those are separate [TS]

  things it seems like schools have a [TS]

  pretty substantial need for laptop [TS]

  shaped things well you know whatever [TS]

  form that takes it does seem like you [TS]

  know obviously they do sell a lot of [TS]

  iPads in education but that seems like [TS]

  it's almost a separate thing like it i [TS]

  think the the laptop form factor is has [TS]

  proven to be more popular in recent [TS]

  years then then tablets and schools and [TS]

  in that form factor I mean that's I [TS]

  think that's one of the biggest reasons [TS]

  why the macbook air still exists it you [TS]

  know if you look at at Apple's average [TS]

  selling price of the Mac it's basically [TS]

  the macbook air like by a long shot it's [TS]

  it seems very obvious that they sell [TS]

  like crate foals of macbook airs like [TS]

  biggest ridiculous number of them but [TS]

  that that really is like I think most [TS]

  markets who were buying Chromebooks as [TS]

  an alternative its alternative to [TS]

  MacBook Airs not to iPads most of the [TS]

  time [TS]

  I'm plugging at the non-education [TS]

  discounters of the non education [TS]

  discount for the maggots he said it was [TS]

  four thousand dollars but no hard drive [TS]

  no hard drive for the 4500 dollar model [TS]

  wouldn't have liked magneto-optical or [TS]

  just fly so so the non educational [TS]

  discount for the good for the good su-30 [TS]

  that had an 80 megabyte hard drive in [TS]

  for megs of ram 6,500 dollars in 1989 [TS]

  money wow that's pretty bad that's what [TS]

  that's why that's the one with the good [TS]

  amount of RAM and the big hard drive [TS]

  let's see what that one is thirteen [TS]

  thousand dollars alright so now we're [TS]

  getting into the modern Ulta for still [TS]

  still no keyboard still no keyboard [TS]

  right that's next two hundred bucks yeah [TS]

  how much was a civic in 89 or whatever [TS]

  year we're talking about here I gotta [TS]

  think it was a less that are around [TS]

  13,000 or less than that yep they were [TS]

  they were trying it seems like it would [TS]

  be ridiculously it's only ridiculously [TS]

  expensive when you convert for old [TS]

  people it's only directions when you [TS]

  convert to today's dollars because back [TS]

  then like you know it was the old adage [TS]

  from like whatever there wasn't a PC [TS]

  Magazine the computer he was always five [TS]

  thousand dollars and that remained true [TS]

  but that remained true as the decades [TS]

  passed and like you know inflation [TS]

  happened right so it was always five [TS]

  that in 1981 that the computer you [TS]

  wanted was five thousand dollars and [TS]

  2010 the computer maybe if your computer [TS]

  that you wanted was five thousand [TS]

  dollars but that five thousand dollars [TS]

  was worth a lot a lot more in 1981 that [TS]

  it wasn't 2010 right so it was a car [TS]

  yeah but anyway max were astronomically [TS]

  expensive I was always amazed when I saw [TS]

  them in schools it's because apple gave [TS]

  deep discounts and you know so that [TS]

  forty three hundred dollars for it was [TS]

  mine had a hard drive the 4300 dollars [TS]

  for the good as he 30 was an amazing [TS]

  bargain but nevertheless a tremendous [TS]

  cost and and I and my kids schools these [TS]

  days I see a surprising amount of [TS]

  desktop max still like their old imax [TS]

  right and then you see carts full of [TS]

  laptop which are like ice books right [TS]

  because that's around the area when they [TS]

  bought these things the reason [TS]

  everything you said about apples like [TS]

  when you have to consumer market who [TS]

  cares about these things that's all true [TS]

  except the Apple Apple image of [TS]

  themselves and the image of themselves [TS]

  they project to the world still seems to [TS]

  include a lot of stuff having to do with [TS]

  education that's what they lean on that [TS]

  much but I think they like the idea of [TS]

  showing students using these devices and [TS]

  a lot of even a lot of their advertising [TS]

  for their modern hardware granted there [TS]

  may be picture like college students or [TS]

  whatever but I think the company always [TS]

  presents the use of its products in [TS]

  education as something that they are [TS]

  proud of and that that could just be [TS]

  marketing though you know like like I [TS]

  mean they're also very proud of people [TS]

  who can draw on an iPad and skin call [TS]

  that a creative pro but that that [TS]

  doesn't mean that they actually have [TS]

  interested in addressing more of the pro [TS]

  market but it means that they're not it [TS]

  brought a says to me is they have not [TS]

  given up or are not abandoning that [TS]

  market they're just not competing that [TS]

  well in it and maybe that's okay maybe [TS]

  you just have a reasonable participation [TS]

  and don't really worry that like some [TS]

  cheap vendor is coming in and and swamp [TS]

  new in unit sales because you're still [TS]

  player in the market like you're solidly [TS]

  second or third place among three [TS]

  players even though someone else is [TS]

  selling for X as many things as you are [TS]

  into the market so maybe that's maybe [TS]

  the time with them maybe they feel like [TS]

  they have the high end of the market [TS]

  they're getting all the profits yada [TS]

  yada yada but i don't it doesn't seem [TS]

  like they're abandoning it whereas i see [TS]

  fewer and fewer instances where they're [TS]

  showing somebody doing pro work on pro [TS]

  hardware because you know what would [TS]

  they even show them doing i guess i can [TS]

  show them using final cut and well they [TS]

  have them shown that they show them [TS]

  using final cut with a touch bar macbook [TS]

  pro with these two giant LG monitors [TS]

  behind that they didn't do that but it's [TS]

  I mean like even this far you know a [TS]

  recent history the trash can that their [TS]

  big demo wwc was to have people from [TS]

  Pixar using the trash can to do you know [TS]

  heavyweight stuff that basically like [TS]

  other computers can't handle this [TS]

  because it's just too much too much [TS]

  memory it's too much cpu that was a long [TS]

  time look at how this fancy new computer [TS]

  handles this that you know that was that [TS]

  was their demo of like this is pro [TS]

  hardware for pros yada yada and i [TS]

  haven't seen a demo like that since i [TS]

  haven't seen an ad like that since from [TS]

  Apple you're right it's been more about [TS]

  like look this amazing laptop you can [TS]

  edit 4k video on this laptop isn't that [TS]

  great that's great and all but if your [TS]

  laptop is never going to leave your desk [TS]

  like is that the best choice for your [TS]

  editing Bay or whatever like a laptop [TS]

  maybe maybe it is maybe that's apples in [TS]

  the computer but it's that it's a far [TS]

  cry from look let's sling around multi [TS]

  gigabyte textures and paint on these [TS]

  models in real time you know but the [TS]

  pics are employees doing that demo w say [TS]

  so I think my main skepticism here is [TS]

  like I don't think there [TS]

  the strong correlation anymore between [TS]

  the way Apple presents itself and its [TS]

  products in the marketing events and [TS]

  videos and commercials and what they [TS]

  actually make like it I agree with you [TS]

  that they do present themselves as being [TS]

  you know as really being you know [TS]

  prioritizing education and and creative [TS]

  people and things that it makes it for a [TS]

  great video makes for very commercial [TS]

  makes for great statements and I'm sure [TS]

  that a lot of these I could actually [TS]

  believe that themselves is sincerely [TS]

  believe that but i think the actions and [TS]

  the results of the company say otherwise [TS]

  they really do say that you know that [TS]

  they are totally fine pricing themselves [TS]

  out of education to a large degree and [TS]

  ignoring actual pro demands when they [TS]

  don't line up with what Apple wants to [TS]

  do for the consumer market it's what do [TS]

  you bring up the trashcan Mac because [TS]

  just today one appeared at my desk not [TS]

  for me to use but just to share and it [TS]

  turned out we had just bought it just in [TS]

  the last week or two because we have a [TS]

  we have a guy on staff who's a video [TS]

  editor and apparently the dual GPUs were [TS]

  enough to sway the IT folks to get the [TS]

  trashcan rather than just an imac 5k did [TS]

  they do any research on when the new [TS]

  iPhone comes out be sure be sure to show [TS]

  them your your geekbench score on your [TS]

  new iphone 8 is is higher in single core [TS]

  than I know I wasn't involved in any of [TS]

  this you know I they just showed up all [TS]

  of a sudden but I thought you two would [TS]

  be amused we bought we bought a trash [TS]

  can within the last week or two that's [TS]

  so sad sorry oh I can't I can't take it [TS]

  anymore just please Apple please fix [TS]

  this I mean the last thing that I want [TS]

  in the entire freaking world is a new [TS]

  mac pro because I I might as well just [TS]

  retire from the show for like a month no [TS]

  because that's gonna be nonstop if they [TS]

  keep not making one we're gonna keep [TS]

  talking about it if they release a new [TS]

  one then we'll talk about it for like [TS]

  two weeks and then you want to hear [TS]

  about it for like a year and a half [TS]

  until we start worrying that they're [TS]

  never gonna make another one again [TS]

  exactly which will be about four weeks [TS]

  but know what I was going to say was [TS]

  i did i do not want to talk about it for [TS]

  another you know four weeks if they do [TS]

  finally announce one or god forbid they [TS]

  announce one that is called a mac pro [TS]

  but is in reality just a imac 5k + + the [TS]

  last thing I want is for that to happen [TS]

  so I have to hear you to you know go on [TS]

  and on and about it forever but even I [TS]

  am at the point that I might come on [TS]

  Apple really really this is still a [TS]

  thing come on you're better than this [TS]

  thanks for three sponsors this week away [TS]

  Squarespace and Pingdom we will see you [TS]

  next week now the show is over they [TS]

  didn't even mean to begin cuz it was [TS]

  accidental oh it was accidental John did [TS]

  Tony research Marco and Casey wouldn't [TS]

  cuz it was accidentally it was [TS]

  accidental but you can find the show [TS]

  notes at ATP FM and if for into twitter [TS]

  you can follow them at cas eyl ISS so [TS]

  that's Casey Liz ma our CEO a RM can t [TS]

  marco arment SI are they see us a [TS]

  syracuse [TS]

  you know I was speaking of another [TS]

  yardstick to seeing how into education [TS]

  Apple is not that I'm saying this is the [TS]

  best idea in the world but a thing they [TS]

  used to do is these to make special [TS]

  computers for education you back there [TS]

  were aspect they were designed and SPECT [TS]

  in price differently sometimes regular [TS]

  people couldn't even buy them sometimes [TS]

  regular people wouldn't want to buy them [TS]

  you know but they as a means of [TS]

  competing in what has always been a very [TS]

  price sensitive market they were like we [TS]

  we need to be able to sell into [TS]

  education none of our existing [TS]

  eventually they learned like none of [TS]

  their existing periods especially back [TS]

  in the day when every computer the apple [TS]

  made was better than better and more [TS]

  expensive than all the other ones they [TS]

  made special versions of computers and [TS]

  special entire computers just for [TS]

  education to suit education needs [TS]

  whatever those may be that showed I [TS]

  think a more serious dedication to the [TS]

  education market again whether that was [TS]

  the best idea to make me special modders [TS]

  but or they should have just changed [TS]

  that other models they were suitable for [TS]

  education or whatever that's farther [TS]

  than today's Apple seems willing to go [TS]

  and on the flip side I think I don't [TS]

  know if this is in this new york times [TS]

  article but I've seen it bounced around [TS]

  maybe Gruber talked about it but Apple [TS]

  is doing much better in IT recently [TS]

  mostly because that I think the the cold [TS]

  war against max in in corporate [TS]

  environments has thought over the past I [TS]

  would say decade or so used to be like [TS]

  you're not anything allowed to bring [TS]

  your Macintosh from home and connected [TS]

  to my network because I'm the evil [TS]

  corporate IT guy and the whole world's [TS]

  gonna end if you do that right to today [TS]

  where I think most people joining a [TS]

  company have some expectations there's a [TS]

  chance that they will either get to [TS]

  choose between a mac and a Windows PC or [TS]

  just everybody's using Mac's depending [TS]

  on the company I mean look at IBM [TS]

  they've got thousands of them right who [TS]

  would have thunk good right and the max [TS]

  integrate better and enterprise [TS]

  environment that's because of efforts [TS]

  Apple has made both iOS devices and max [TS]

  integrate better into enterprise [TS]

  environments because Apple has changed [TS]

  their software in ways that enterprise [TS]

  people wanted to make it more of a [TS]

  remotely manageable to have it be [TS]

  compatible with various protocols it's [TS]

  been slow and it hasn't been that [TS]

  matic but the series of things that [TS]

  they've done have made max way more [TS]

  viable and enterprise than they used to [TS]

  be despite the fact they're still pretty [TS]

  much Enterprise unfriendly in terms of [TS]

  like how Dell will service and replace [TS]

  your things versus how Apple will do it [TS]

  and stuff like it like they still have a [TS]

  long way to go and it's interesting that [TS]

  they're sort of the same kind of Magnus [TS]

  I have harder but the same kind of apple [TS]

  style approach where we'll make some [TS]

  changes in your behalf but we're not [TS]

  going to compromise our core beliefs [TS]

  about what a computer should be and how [TS]

  our business should run and so on and so [TS]

  forth has yielded dividends in [TS]

  enterprise probably because there is no [TS]

  equivalent to Google coming from nowhere [TS]

  and taking over the enterprise they're [TS]

  basically just slowly trading market [TS]

  share with Microsoft and other Windows [TS]

  PC type things whereas an education [TS]

  they've been doing things as well to try [TS]

  to make their iOS devices and Max better [TS]

  for education over the years but their [TS]

  their pace of innovation there has been [TS]

  swamped by Google coming out with a [TS]

  product that is cheap easy to manage [TS]

  people like to use it removes a lot of [TS]

  pain points that people have been [TS]

  experiencing because the Chromebook as [TS]

  we discussed before is not just like a [TS]

  slightly better or cheaper laptop it's [TS]

  not a netbook right the advantage they [TS]

  have is that is a different computing [TS]

  paradigm with the you know things on the [TS]

  web right and that hold that that whole [TS]

  thing if I've heard them referred to as [TS]

  dumb terminals but I think that's a [TS]

  that's a pejorative there they're not [TS]

  dumb and they're not terminals it is [TS]

  merely a computer using local hardware [TS]

  to run applications and then using the [TS]

  network for state preservation and it's [TS]

  a great solution and it's easier for [TS]

  people to manage then installing [TS]

  software and all that other stuff and [TS]

  that's that I think is why they're [TS]

  winning not just because of price [TS]

  because they could surely get trashed [TS]

  you know Windows PCs for something close [TS]

  to that price but a crappy Windows PC is [TS]

  not as easy to manage as the fleet of [TS]

  Chromebooks all right so I think you [TS]

  know there is no equivalent to that an [TS]

  enterprise there is no competitive [TS]

  enterprise that is making things ten [TS]

  times easier let's say for enterprise IT [TS]

  then Apple or Microsoft or dell or [TS]

  whatever whereas there was in education [TS]

  so I rather than framing this as a [TS]

  failing of Apple I think it's more fair [TS]

  to frame it as a success for google [TS]

  give Google credit for finding one [TS]

  environment into which it can sell its [TS]

  hardware that apparently loves it is not [TS]

  the consumer realm they just did and [TS]

  they just canceled the Chromebook pixels [TS]

  that I'm making them yeah yeah yeahs [TS]

  consumers not so much but schools [TS]

  schools love it and you know kudos to [TS]

  Google Apple could have done better yes [TS]

  buts and so could a Microsoft but bottom [TS]

  line is google made a product that [TS]

  education loves John how much did you [TS]

  say your 1989 Mac was eight grand in [TS]

  today's money no no in that money it was [TS]

  four thousand three hundred dollars plus [TS]

  the keyboard so you would need another [TS]

  half of a Mac to get a three-door honda [TS]

  civic hatchback for speed which was 6385 [TS]

  dollars almost John almost [TS]