The Accidental Tech Podcast

210: My Stupid Thumb

 

  so much easier when everything was [TS]

  monogrammed those are the days right [TS]

  John [TS]

  those were the days you kids these days [TS]

  and your multi-bit displays pixels could [TS]

  be on or they could be off [TS]

  what more do you need so I'm sick [TS]

  well you know i should actually save [TS]

  that for right before follow-up because [TS]

  if you don't leave in that I'm sick then [TS]

  everyone's gonna bring to you about how [TS]

  the sounds all wrong for me [TS]

  mark I would never added something out [TS]

  of a podcast that causes a stream of [TS]

  feedback for an entire week even though [TS]

  we discussed on the show [TS]

  normally I try to edit I i try to remove [TS]

  things that we that we say kind of like [TS]

  I wonder if it's this way that like we [TS]

  find out two seconds later are wrong [TS]

  because that way because we actually if [TS]

  I don't do that then we will get tons of [TS]

  emails from people who have who pause at [TS]

  that point before we realize that we are [TS]

  wrong and write and tell us where that [TS]

  we were wrong so normally i will edit [TS]

  out like the first half of something [TS]

  like that just because like it doesn't [TS]

  do anybody any good to hear speculate [TS]

  being wrong that we're going to learn is [TS]

  wrong [TS]

  shortly after but sometimes we get it [TS]

  wrong [TS]

  so with that in mind before anyone right [TS]

  saying i am a little sick i actually [TS]

  feel fine but I get home maybe my [TS]

  sinuses are clogged up because I sound [TS]

  weird you sound like hell but I know I I [TS]

  really do feel okay like i have been [TS]

  snot in that much I mean everything [TS]

  seems okay but I can feel it coming [TS]

  can we hear more detail about your about [TS]

  your nasal situation and i would love to [TS]

  have to actually it's funny because i am [TS]

  as your but let's hear more yeah it's [TS]

  god I wish I remember that scrub song [TS]

  about a it all comes I think it's all it [TS]

  all comes down to poo something like [TS]

  that anyway and I'm but a but yeah I [TS]

  listen to do by friday which I resisted [TS]

  listening to you for awhile for no [TS]

  particular reason just because I guess [TS]

  just because I don't feel like I have a [TS]

  lot of availability in my in my shedule [TS]

  for her new podcast don't do it out well [TS]

  and as it turns out i'm glad i folded [TS]

  because due by friday is excellent and [TS]

  on due by friday they were talking about [TS]

  some sort of like sinus cleansing device [TS]

  that I think came from walgreens don't [TS]

  do that either [TS]

  there's a neti pot right well yeah neti [TS]

  pot or something along those lines I [TS]

  forget the details for any of us [TS]

  yeah well that's the [TS]

  thing and so on the one side I feel like [TS]

  I think my sinuses are like clogged as [TS]

  hell in and one of these neti pot like [TS]

  things would theoretically clear it but [TS]

  that being said I really do not want a [TS]

  brain amoeba and so i will just pass and [TS]

  sound like a moron for the rest of the [TS]

  episode and not died from a brain amoeba [TS]

  and I'll be okay with that now in in [TS]

  fairness for the due by friday brain [TS]

  squirting device that one that what did [TS]

  have a microfilter of some kind that [TS]

  purported to block the brain and [TS]

  meatballs from entering your brain and [TS]

  there's anybody you want to trust with [TS]

  keeping microbes out of your body but [TS]

  through use of a paper-thin filter CBS [TS]

  it's a $14 thing at walgreens walgreens [TS]

  sorry not CBS sorry that's a whole [TS]

  different story [TS]

  yeah it's walgreens then you're okay my [TS]

  goodness so yes don't yell at Marco is [TS]

  levels aren't wrong my levels aren't [TS]

  wrong and sound weird [TS]

  so see apologies for that we should [TS]

  start with some follow-up we are aware [TS]

  that you can use control center to [TS]

  switch to air pods on iOS devices the [TS]

  whole of the internet wrote in to tell [TS]

  us this and this was very confusing for [TS]

  John and I because we spoke about this [TS]

  on the show and I didn't understand why [TS]

  nobody spent the time to figure that out [TS]

  and as it turns out we later discovered [TS]

  that this was one of those instances [TS]

  where Marco got a little aggressive with [TS]

  the edits which a truth be told happens [TS]

  extremely rarely but every great once in [TS]

  a while something slip through the [TS]

  cracks and this is one of those [TS]

  instances where John and I discussed [TS]

  this and it was in the midst of other [TS]

  things that should have been cut and [TS]

  apparently the slicing and dicing was [TS]

  not quite surgical enough so we are [TS]

  aware that you can use control swim [TS]

  center to switch to airports on iOS [TS]

  devices so thank you the entirety of the [TS]

  internet for writing it but more [TS]

  importantly for the people who listen to [TS]

  the show the vast vast majority of [TS]

  people that information was cut and they [TS]

  didn't get the benefit of knowing that [TS]

  is obviously the people who who wrote in [TS]

  to tell us that we can use a control [TS]

  center [TS]

  you know like that i was surprised by [TS]

  them running because I said oh you like [TS]

  Marco sometimes people pause the show to [TS]

  send feedback and then they resume [TS]

  playing it and there's some [TS]

  standard amount of feedback you get of [TS]

  someone saying something that you know [TS]

  will be addressed maybe 20 or 30 seconds [TS]

  later in the show and that's fine that [TS]

  happens all the time i do myself [TS]

  everybody does it right [TS]

  I usually expect to see one or two [TS]

  pieces of feedback after that saying oh [TS]

  haha should have waited 20 seconds and [TS]

  you mentioned it but I didn't see any of [TS]

  those was like this is weird [TS]

  large volume of people apparently [TS]

  pausing the podcast get feedback but [TS]

  nobody saying oh sorry I should've kept [TS]

  listening so that was that was my clue [TS]

  that this was going on but anyway the [TS]

  important piece of information denied to [TS]

  all the other listeners who didn't know [TS]

  or didn't listen live ya hit that that [TS]

  you can do this if you have their pods [TS]

  and multiple iOS devices you don't have [TS]

  to go to settings and bluetooth and [TS]

  switch it you can do it in control [TS]

  center and it is more convenient so try [TS]

  it [TS]

  yeah and in to be clear just in case it [TS]

  wasn't obvious there are two panes in [TS]

  control center and it is the rightmost [TS]

  pain there's a kind of a dropdownlist [TS]

  ish thing on the bottom where you can [TS]

  select your output device and that's [TS]

  what you want and actually speaking of [TS]

  control center one of the reasons that [TS]

  it is not actually has a convenient for [TS]

  me to use control center is because as [TS]

  of right now I have control settled [TS]

  control center disabled on my iPad [TS]

  everybody except for springboard you [TS]

  know that setting if you whether you [TS]

  want to be able to swipe up and control [TS]

  center either Justin springboard all [TS]

  apps i figure how its phrase but anyway [TS]

  I had to disable control center in [TS]

  during in applications on my iPad which [TS]

  is the main device i would be switching [TS]

  to because of stage and which is an [TS]

  excellent game that you should try but [TS]

  involves a lot of swiping rapidly upward [TS]

  from the bottom of your ipad huh and I [TS]

  really don't want control center to [TS]

  appear I don't even want the little [TS]

  tabby thing to hear because you know it [TS]

  makes you do it twice just to show that [TS]

  you really mean it [TS]

  that little tabby things appears and I'm [TS]

  instantly dead so that's a great game [TS]

  everyone should buy it and try it and [TS]

  you can just control center first I love [TS]

  the the style of that game i love the [TS]

  music of the game i love the idea of [TS]

  that game but my brain just can't do it [TS]

  like I I know there's some kind of like [TS]

  learning curve maybe and I try playing [TS]

  it for like a good 15 minutes I could [TS]

  not [TS]

  I get my brain to do it right heated [TS]

  it's not a learning curve there it is to [TS]

  state machine there is i don't get the [TS]

  game and then you'll cross the humongous [TS]

  gap somehow magically and all of a [TS]

  sudden you get the game that was my [TS]

  experiences i was i was in the beta for [TS]

  that game and I played I played a lot [TS]

  during the beta right and my high score [TS]

  was like one or two hundred for several [TS]

  weeks and then as the day went on I I [TS]

  got close to 400 and I was asking was [TS]

  asking Kevin like what the mall people [TS]

  get for high scores like I know it's [TS]

  just the beta testers but like mi mi [TS]

  just terrible at this game I like [TS]

  average and he was saying there's a lot [TS]

  of variability and so on and so forth [TS]

  trying to make me feel better about my [TS]

  fault my terrible high score but once [TS]

  the game got closer to release that I [TS]

  think it was actually around the time of [TS]

  release [TS]

  I my brain figure it out like figured [TS]

  out how to play the game and instantly [TS]

  went up into the thousands and you know [TS]

  I haven't looked back so I wouldn't you [TS]

  know it it's a fun game it's a cute [TS]

  little trifle you can play with it but [TS]

  unfortunately unlike altos adventure [TS]

  unfortunately / fortunately once you [TS]

  figure the game out it becomes [TS]

  surprisingly time-consuming as you spend [TS]

  your days plugging away at this thing [TS]

  out but there is there is a big leap so [TS]

  if you don't you know you don't ever [TS]

  make that leap that's fine i still think [TS]

  it's worth the three bucks over the game [TS]

  costs just to play with it because it's [TS]

  a really novel interesting idea [TS]

  very well executed but there is another [TS]

  game on the other side of it once you [TS]

  once you cross the hurdle once you bring [TS]

  gets the game and then you can like me [TS]

  spend most your time being incredibly [TS]

  frustrated that you made some tiny my [TS]

  new mistake after playing for literally [TS]

  20 minutes and just missed your high [TS]

  score this sounds vaguely like the [TS]

  smarter every day video with the [TS]

  backwards bike [TS]

  have you seen this it's al with where [TS]

  they had it's like a gear or something [TS]

  like that such that when you turned the [TS]

  handle bars right the bike went left and [TS]

  in if you watch the video spoiler alert [TS]

  basically eventually just flip this [TS]

  switch your brain just puts the switch [TS]

  where it understands and then you can [TS]

  actually to ride the bike also real-time [TS]

  follow up this is an example [TS]

  us saying something that we don't [TS]

  realize is wrong people will have [TS]

  already pause the show and written in [TS]

  and now i will correct it for the three [TS]

  of you that actually use home kit home [TS]

  kid is the rightmost panel control [TS]

  center it is not it is not the audio [TS]

  stuff but there's only three of you that [TS]

  use home kit so I appreciate all three [TS]

  of you writing in markup that door yeah [TS]

  yeah sure you think they're also the [TS]

  Opera users how you know that's an [TS]

  interesting point very well could be [TS]

  I don't know so right if you know [TS]

  actually not really pleased if I their [TS]

  long waits when you use the chat feature [TS]

  dirty for most customer support tools [TS]

  this is when you use the online web chat [TS]

  because like me you hate the telephone [TS]

  and don't want to spend any time on the [TS]

  telephone if you can avoid it tomw [TS]

  rights in to point out web chat works on [TS]

  the premise that one person speaks to a [TS]

  few people at once many up to 10 and [TS]

  perhaps that's why the latency is so [TS]

  atrociously bad in in when you're having [TS]

  these online chat experiences a lot of [TS]

  people running with a backhand makes [TS]

  perfect sense and it should have [TS]

  occurred to me but didn't like i was [TS]

  using it because the phone lines were [TS]

  closed but I mean they just it just [TS]

  falls out of my car keys to the phone [TS]

  lines that close [TS]

  why is the text right open because in [TS]

  text chat you can attend 1 multiplied [TS]

  are your people and that's why i gotta [TS]

  wait 10 minutes to reply because someone [TS]

  was replying to 10 other people and [TS]

  that's actually kind of an amazing / [TS]

  terrible job because who wants to have [TS]

  you ever tried to conduct 10 [TS]

  simultaneous text conversations that are [TS]

  productive in anyway with anybody you [TS]

  can't joke around with three friends at [TS]

  once I feel like I'm frazzled doing that [TS]

  it's like all right are you know I mean [TS]

  you can have you can have multiple [TS]

  things going with a knot in an on-time [TS]

  critical nature like just you know [TS]

  whatever like someone said something [TS]

  funny and then you say something funny [TS]

  backward like that's fine multiple slack [TS]

  channels all that stuff but 10 customer [TS]

  service conversations for the person on [TS]

  the other end is potentially angry and [TS]

  wants to just complete a transaction [TS]

  now if you're really bad for these [TS]

  people tell me i'm guessing that there [TS]

  is you know software assistance here [TS]

  that they're probably using special [TS]

  tools that have like a checklist script [TS]

  they're going through each person and [TS]

  Electro's yeah well but yet even just [TS]

  like like i'm sure there's like a script [TS]

  or like a checklist that each one [TS]

  and can probably keep a state of like [TS]

  here's what i've done with this customer [TS]

  so far so there's probably some kind of [TS]

  like special software designed to help [TS]

  them out here I mean this is a perfect [TS]

  application for everyone's favorite 80s [TS]

  AI technology expert systems where you [TS]

  can make a general-purpose AI because [TS]

  really hard but what you can do is make [TS]

  a text-only chat thing that knows how to [TS]

  handle customer service you know the top [TS]

  5 customer service concerns and but [TS]

  points to a user if it can't figure it [TS]

  out and those can work fine too and i [TS]

  think i would probably be mostly okay [TS]

  with those it if it just you know i [TS]

  would type in something and it would [TS]

  repeat back to me its understanding of [TS]

  the thing asking for confirmation and I [TS]

  can get frustrating if you go around in [TS]

  circles but if it just wants you to a [TS]

  person i can imagine it would probably [TS]

  be good for you know covering at least [TS]

  half of the cases of i have a product [TS]

  there's a problem I want to return and [TS]

  we asked me for the order number and [TS]

  give me the RMA and but like machine can [TS]

  do that [TS]

  not that I'm trying to put more people [TS]

  to work with the eyes but you know [TS]

  efficiencies well alright so let's get [TS]

  to the job siracusa portion of follow-up [TS]

  as if all the follow-up visit John's [TS]

  already why don't you tell us about a [TS]

  PFS somebody on the internet named Tyler [TS]

  lock or loke successfully booted mac OS [TS]

  Sierra from in a PFS file system is ntfs [TS]

  was introduced in Syria as a developer [TS]

  preview and presumably sometime this [TS]

  year will be the official supported [TS]

  bootable file system for what I suppose [TS]

  is the next major version of Mac West [TS]

  who knows they can do it a point release [TS]

  to whatever it's already coming to iOS [TS]

  and in ten point 3 and that's not even [TS]

  the next major release and up until now [TS]

  you haven't been able to boot from it [TS]

  but many many parts of it are getting [TS]

  more mature and obviously if it's going [TS]

  to be the it it's going to convert all [TS]

  your iOS devices a PFS and 10.3 I bet [TS]

  the file system is pretty much ready for [TS]

  primetime the only reason it's not on [TS]

  the max because the mac is obviously a [TS]

  lower priority and he tweeted about this [TS]

  will put some links in the show notes to [TS]

  these tweets just you can get in touch [TS]

  with him and tell him to write a blog [TS]

  post about it if he hasn't already [TS]

  he did it by taking a 10-point 12.4 [TS]

  drive [TS]

  cloning it running the a PFS HFS convert [TS]

  command-line utility which exists to [TS]

  convert it in place just like it doesn't [TS]

  iOS devices right that's you know why [TS]

  that utility exist and then manually [TS]

  edited the goal partition table uuid to [TS]

  some big heck string that apparently is [TS]

  the right one and then did some other [TS]

  stuff that i can understand bc try to [TS]

  complete compress it onto a tweet and [TS]

  change some car flags and rebooted and [TS]

  he was booted into a PFS and the other [TS]

  thing to note is his little screenshot [TS]

  showing hey look I'm booted into a PFS [TS]

  showed as the volume type a PFS and in [TS]

  parentheses case-insensitive so in case [TS]

  you're wondering if it was just a choice [TS]

  he made it was going to be the official [TS]

  one but maybe fest case-insensitive is [TS]

  certainly a thing so maybe if you're [TS]

  having problems with case-sensitive hfs+ [TS]

  you won't have to worry about that with [TS]

  a PFS because you won't be forced to [TS]

  make your Mac case sensitive if the [TS]

  screenshot is any indication we respond [TS]

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  anything off the rack ever could thank [TS]

  you very much too indochino were [TS]

  sponsoring our show once again [TS]

  ah so big week for Marco as they say you [TS]

  have released overcast three so [TS]

  congratulations Thank You there's only [TS]

  one massive bug [TS]

  what's the best of bug well that there [TS]

  were there were 15 minor bugs that I [TS]

  fixed in a point release yesterday but [TS]

  created one less minor bug where now you [TS]

  just can't create playlists anymore [TS]

  that's no big deal I've heard from [TS]

  surprisingly few people about it because [TS]

  creating playlists is not a very common [TS]

  action you get the others list for free [TS]

  and if you q things that's created [TS]

  automatically so that's fine i have the [TS]

  fix ready iTunes Connect has been [TS]

  undergoing maintenance stuff all day so [TS]

  I haven't actually able to be able to be [TS]

  able to submit but that should be fixed [TS]

  in a couple days probably the time this [TS]

  podcast goes live [TS]

  youyou found this bug the playlist bug [TS]

  after you release the left you uploaded [TS]

  30 1301 cause the bug [TS]

  there you go yeah yeah that's now that's [TS]

  the point release because i was so it [TS]

  was it was rapid turnaround like you had [TS]

  three point one which had like a bunch [TS]

  of little minor fixes and gotta prove [TS]

  really quickly and went up on the store [TS]

  it's like wow [TS]

  everything's working at design but they [TS]

  had a bug because 30 had had a pretty [TS]

  serious bug where the gesture for [TS]

  dismissing the now playing sheet it [TS]

  would interfere with the speed sliders [TS]

  little thumb if you would set the speed [TS]

  to the very bottom setting the minus [TS]

  which is like points7 extra point x1 [TS]

  like that so basically if you set this [TS]

  be all the way down you could never [TS]

  change it unless you have like an iPad [TS]

  or something you could like sink it back [TS]

  from and so that was a pretty serious [TS]

  bug but I i had to get 301 out quickly [TS]

  and they were a couple of other like [TS]

  minor things like you know let me throw [TS]

  in you know whatever I could do quickly [TS]

  that's not gonna require lots of testing [TS]

  to validate and everything [TS]

  let me just do that quickly [TS]

  and I slipped up when fixing a playlist [TS]

  reordering but basically I pulled the [TS]

  place editor out of the card environment [TS]

  because for various implementation [TS]

  details that are born again into here [TS]

  uitableview reorder controls break if [TS]

  they're in a card that isn't mine now [TS]

  playing card so i had to reach had to [TS]

  revert the playlist editor back to the [TS]

  regular environment which is not in a [TS]

  car because it's a regular full screen [TS]

  sheet and in doing that I mistakenly [TS]

  forgot to readd the done button back to [TS]

  it so now you can cancel the creation of [TS]

  the playlist but you cannot finish it [TS]

  surprising that your comprehensive suite [TS]

  of automated tests and catch this i was [TS]

  waiting for thank you John syracuse i [TS]

  love you might want to save your voice [TS]

  thank you [TS]

  alright so you've gone on a justifiable [TS]

  media blitz i listen to under the radar [TS]

  already moments before we started [TS]

  recording it turns out as per tradition [TS]

  you are on the talk show what do you [TS]

  want to talk about here either that [TS]

  you've touched on previously or that [TS]

  that you'd like to elaborate upon i mean [TS]

  this is this is your show so now is the [TS]

  time to really well not that under the [TS]

  radar isn't you know what I mean now's [TS]

  the time to really go deep on any of [TS]

  this stuff or do what I expected to do [TS]

  and say whatever [TS]

  well I don't mean what do you guys want [TS]

  to know like what I mean what's what do [TS]

  you think would be interesting because [TS]

  like you know so I'll tell you you know [TS]

  on under-the-radar talked about kind of [TS]

  the idea of basically had like 30 was a [TS]

  big release in terms of like how much [TS]

  stuff changed but it was actually not a [TS]

  big release in terms of like here's a [TS]

  list of features that are new but [TS]

  they're there are very few new features [TS]

  and it's kind of an interesting thing to [TS]

  do of like here's a new version of this [TS]

  app there's been tons of work to it it's [TS]

  a lot better but I can't tell you [TS]

  everything new in it because it's not [TS]

  it's not that kind of better like I it's [TS]

  basically most of the work was in [TS]

  revamping the UI and and it doesn't even [TS]

  see it doesn't even look incredibly [TS]

  different than how did before it just [TS]

  works differently in certain in certain [TS]

  places so like you know the whole card [TS]

  you I with the now playing screen that [TS]

  the two-stage episode selection now at [TS]

  the [TS]

  Monroe in the bottom of it those are the [TS]

  big things and then you know the queuing [TS]

  system that goes around the whole thing [TS]

  and and kind of like moving all the [TS]

  actions into visible places but it in a [TS]

  similar way that it's hard for me to to [TS]

  come up with like a feature change list [TS]

  of here's the big new headline features [TS]

  it's also hard for me to come up with [TS]

  like what should I talk about like what [TS]

  do you want to know I don't know jack [TS]

  remember you i will be like what do you [TS]

  think I should be covering here [TS]

  chatroom wants to know why swipe to [TS]

  delete is gone and having been on data [TS]

  for how many months i thought it will [TS]

  all eventually get used to it will go [TS]

  away i'm still swiping up to get [TS]

  something else FYI i mean not that I [TS]

  don't mind because I don't delete them [TS]

  that often like they go away when you [TS]

  know I still have the setting that [TS]

  deletes them when you finish listening [TS]

  so it's not a thing that comes up often [TS]

  but I've done it in the past week the [TS]

  short version of why this is the way it [TS]

  is and then you can yell at me for an [TS]

  hour is the old way of like you have [TS]

  your list of episodes you could swipe [TS]

  one of the cells and it would reveal the [TS]

  iOS standard tableview delete button [TS]

  along with a couple other actions like [TS]

  there was a star for recommending and [TS]

  there's a download button there if it [TS]

  wasn't downloaded this has always been [TS]

  the way to delete episodes and overcast [TS]

  you could you could also just listen to [TS]

  them all the way through and the default [TS]

  settings to delete after listening I got [TS]

  so many emails and tweets over the last [TS]

  two and a half years since one point out [TS]

  with people asking how grandly episodes [TS]

  or had a way to leave a message that [TS]

  listening to them all the way through [TS]

  which is kind of funny if you think [TS]

  about that means people were actually [TS]

  like trying to place all the way through [TS]

  just to delete them and the reason why [TS]

  is because I thought when I was [TS]

  designing this app that you know of [TS]

  course everyone using an iphone knows [TS]

  that you swipe table views to delete you [TS]

  know that that's that's obvious [TS]

  everyone knows that right or you tap the [TS]

  edit button in the corner and it shows [TS]

  that elite controls and you then usually [TS]

  from their people don't know this a lot [TS]

  of people don't know this and you can [TS]

  kind of understand why because if you [TS]

  just get an iphone and you can start [TS]

  using it like at no point do you really [TS]

  need that like in the rest of the iphone [TS]

  interface doesn't really like there's [TS]

  always also delete button somewhere or [TS]

  something out or it's in some contexts [TS]

  like messages where it doesn't really [TS]

  matter you look here where you don't [TS]

  often delete entire conversation so I [TS]

  a lot of people who use iphones don't [TS]

  know like the the quote standards for [TS]

  some of the other controls for things [TS]

  like swiping table cells to show really [TS]

  control or hitting the edit button to to [TS]

  show other controls whatever else does [TS]

  Apple Mail have a way to delete yeah [TS]

  there's there's delete buttons right on [TS]

  the bottom toolbar a huge design goal of [TS]

  overcast through everything my post but [TS]

  a huge angle overcast three was [TS]

  basically to because you know every [TS]

  every feature that I had that was hidden [TS]

  behind of gesture people would find and [TS]

  they would they would write in confused [TS]

  or mad that I didn't have this feature [TS]

  or disappointed and so my main goal with [TS]

  overcast three was to take all of the [TS]

  all the things I've learned with [TS]

  two-and-a-half years of basically [TS]

  feedback and user testing and try to [TS]

  address as many design flaws as possible [TS]

  I mean there's just there's so many [TS]

  features so much functionality that I've [TS]

  had since one point O that a good [TS]

  portion of my users either can't find or [TS]

  just assume i don't have or they [TS]

  misunderstand [TS]

  so it was very much like a a clarifying [TS]

  release to clarify how things work and [TS]

  then and etc you know and I knew going [TS]

  into it I knew that the the you know now [TS]

  playing being this card that's coming [TS]

  from the bottom instead of navigation [TS]

  pane such as the right I knew that would [TS]

  be like you know a minor thing people [TS]

  get used to quickly but i also know and [TS]

  even said in the post that the the like [TS]

  new two-stage really now you tap the [TS]

  cell and rather than immediately playing [TS]

  the episode it shows like a little [TS]

  action menu kind of like when you select [TS]

  a tweet tweet pot and there's buttons [TS]

  and one the middle button there's play [TS]

  and then one of the 12 the far right is [TS]

  delete and i'm a little curious from [TS]

  people like you guys and the entire chat [TS]

  room and many people on twitter by the [TS]

  way i should i should say before before [TS]

  i can make just like that the response [TS]

  to this update has been massively [TS]

  positive that i am very very happy with [TS]

  the with the response it has been very [TS]

  very positive and for something that [TS]

  changes so many things that's a bit more [TS]

  positive reaction than I would have [TS]

  guessed so anyway that that aside for [TS]

  the people who are not so positive about [TS]

  it because of this new like now it takes [TS]

  two taps to delete something thing it [TS]

  always took to temporarily something [TS]

  before it was swiped [TS]

  tap now it's tap tap so I'm kind of [TS]

  curious like why I mean it's different [TS]

  but is it actually worse now you know [TS]

  why I do that case and I shouldn't don't [TS]

  don't give him the answer Karen downtown [TS]

  market will explain to us why why this [TS]

  there's get back what I I understand the [TS]

  people who don't like there's two taps [TS]

  to play something I understand that [TS]

  because there was one tab before and now [TS]

  it's too even though it's much less [TS]

  error-prone now in the interfaces way [TS]

  clear for everybody but why is it worse [TS]

  to have to delete be two taps instead of [TS]

  a swipe and tap and now the other part [TS]

  of markets bringing around to answer [TS]

  that question [TS]

  good i don't know I honestly like I go I [TS]

  know you can do it gets it i know you [TS]

  could do it it's just different but is [TS]

  it worse [TS]

  nice it's actually easier to do is more [TS]

  precise because that's what that one of [TS]

  the reasons was that the swipe to delete [TS]

  I would often accidentally start playing [TS]

  the episode so let me give you my answer [TS]

  which i think is the same as John's but [TS]

  who knows [TS]

  my answer is you should never ever ever [TS]

  deviate from what is the norm on the [TS]

  platform and so the norm on the platform [TS]

  is if you want to do some sort of [TS]

  destructive change like that in a quick [TS]

  like gestural way you swipe from right [TS]

  to left and there will be some sort of [TS]

  destructive action that you can take [TS]

  right then and there and like you said [TS]

  previously Marco that's on pretty much [TS]

  every table view in the system that [TS]

  allows you to remove a table bureau and [TS]

  so because i don't think this is [TS]

  exclusively a power user thing although [TS]

  it certainly in my mind excuse towards [TS]

  power users but you should never fight [TS]

  the frameworks and you which you've done [TS]

  with this table you actually in many [TS]

  ways [TS]

  oh you shouldn't and you should never [TS]

  fight the hague the human interface [TS]

  guidelines and and I feel like you're [TS]

  fighting the hague now I haven't beaten [TS]

  you up about this too bad previously [TS]

  because I understand where your head's [TS]

  at and it makes sense to me that for the [TS]

  overwhelming majority of users i bet you [TS]

  anything this was a positive change but [TS]

  for someone like me and thinking [TS]

  completely myopically you're behaving [TS]

  differently than the rest of the [TS]

  platform and that feels gross in the [TS]

  same way that you get that grossed out [TS]

  feeling when you look at a material [TS]

  design google app on iphone using google [TS]

  apps on my phone [TS]

  well [TS]

  you know what I mean that like it's [TS]

  that's a bit unfair comparison and a bit [TS]

  slanders to be to be fair because you [TS]

  are nowhere near that that out of left [TS]

  field but it's a similar scenario right [TS]

  where you have something that doesn't [TS]

  quite feel right but it doesn't quite [TS]

  feel right to a power user or even a [TS]

  moderate power user I think to most [TS]

  people your I I think you made the right [TS]

  change even though it drives me batty [TS]

  well let me let me just boil that down [TS]

  to a more to it and a simpler more [TS]

  visceral answer everything you said is [TS]

  right but the result the result of that [TS]

  is at bottom line i keep swiping things [TS]

  that's that's the bottom line [TS]

  after many many weeks i keep swiping and [TS]

  it's not a big deal and that the [TS]

  discoverability is a hundred percent [TS]

  like I'm even though is non-standard in [TS]

  the same way that sweet spot is [TS]

  non-standard i like it like it is good [TS]

  because you have a complicated [TS]

  application and I think this is better [TS]

  and discoverability there's no arguing [TS]

  is that you were getting tons of [TS]

  feedback about discoverability people [TS]

  will find the trash cannot come on they [TS]

  could hundred percent on that but why [TS]

  why do people complain it's not about [TS]

  speed is not about efficiency [TS]

  why do I keep swiping my case he said [TS]

  because I swipe everywhere else again [TS]

  can't convince my stupid thumbs not to [TS]

  swipe and and everything you said about [TS]

  why you and why you added the bar and [TS]

  discoverability all that's a hundred [TS]

  percent true but exactly in the same way [TS]

  that that a underscore convince you to [TS]

  make a sideways so that swype [TS]

  inexplicably do a thing that should [TS]

  totally not do this because that's the [TS]

  way the old one work you keep the same [TS]

  controls exactly where they are but if [TS]

  my finger stupid swype so the umpteenth [TS]

  time just let it delete but that's all [TS]

  I'm asking for like keep exactly the [TS]

  same stuff that's in there now make a [TS]

  discovery also and so forth but for the [TS]

  admittedly very small handful of people [TS]

  and that's why this is not a big deal [TS]

  that's why three-point always in that [TS]

  win no matter what even if you never had [TS]

  this feature back but for the small [TS]

  handful of people who are either on this [TS]

  podcast with your in chatroom stupid [TS]

  thumbs keep swiping [TS]

  this is another case to do one of those [TS]

  features just like the one was referring [TS]

  to the underscore talk you into which [TS]

  was the old gesture was to get rid of [TS]

  now playing you could swipe the side [TS]

  even though the new one comes up from [TS]

  the bottom you still made swipe the side [TS]

  work because it's no skin off else's [TS]

  back no one else is going to discover it [TS]

  except for people have muscle [TS]

  i'm here from the old overcast guess [TS]

  what I can make that work for you to now [TS]

  maybe a pain in the butt to make swipe [TS]

  to delete work in the context of [TS]

  whatever unholy things that you've done [TS]

  to the table view to make it so super [TS]

  custom and by the way i love the fact [TS]

  that you can reorder now with the little [TS]

  grippy tabs everywhere so you know again [TS]

  it's totally a net win but for this tiny [TS]

  little minor feature you know it would [TS]

  be neat if the old muscle memory still [TS]

  worked and i guess i'll probably [TS]

  eventually get you stuff but I thought [TS]

  whatever got used to it by now and I [TS]

  think it's exactly what case he said if [TS]

  the whole rest of the system is training [TS]

  me again and again to swipe to delete [TS]

  it's very difficult to sort of [TS]

  contextual the untrained myself from [TS]

  that gesture on something that looks for [TS]

  all the world like a table view as a [TS]

  general rule use standard gestures [TS]

  people are familiar with the standard [TS]

  gestures and don't appreciate being [TS]

  forced to learn different ways to do the [TS]

  same thing in games another immersive [TS]

  apps custom gestures can be a fun part [TS]

  of the experience and other apps it's [TS]

  best to use the standard gesture so [TS]

  extra effort isn't needed to discover or [TS]

  remember them straight out of the hague [TS]

  all right so you guys make good points i [TS]

  don't i don't disagree with a lot of [TS]

  what you're saying I actually the idea [TS]

  of doing both of adding the swipes back [TS]

  actually never occurred to me until this [TS]

  moment there is probably something I'm [TS]

  doing to that table view that would make [TS]

  that probably not work well you don't [TS]

  like growing glitches come on that's [TS]

  also part of the fun [TS]

  i will try it because I I admit like if [TS]

  I can do that with with no horrible side [TS]

  effects then it is kind of a no-brainer [TS]

  to offer that affords to have both like [TS]

  little orange bar appear as the thing [TS]

  above it swipe sideways in the orange [TS]

  bar starts to get clipped and filled [TS]

  with me so awesome [TS]

  you have no idea what I've done to poor [TS]

  uitableview and I would yeah whatever [TS]

  tweet but did I same type of thing like [TS]

  this and to be fair like I don't have to [TS]

  but was the originator of this thing but [TS]

  a lot of applications do this where they [TS]

  were they want to have more stuff for [TS]

  you to do a tableview they can't all fit [TS]

  under magic edit button where you go [TS]

  into a mode right and so they do this [TS]

  thing where it reveals more controls [TS]

  when you tap the thing I think that [TS]

  itself even though it's not a nigger [TS]

  whatever is kind of standard and tried [TS]

  and true but since you can't delete the [TS]

  tweet tweet but never had to deal with [TS]

  like as you can [TS]

  speaking with you can't believe its weak [TS]

  but it's that was sweet but doing you [TS]

  swipe I guess I don't delete [TS]

  sweet as often as i type i think is view [TS]

  conversation yeah then there's two [TS]

  different directions one of the few [TS]

  times you know i think is favorite oh [TS]

  that's right they used both directions [TS]

  for the for the yeah yeah no I mean so [TS]

  okay so there's a number of things to [TS]

  respond to hear one of them is when [TS]

  you're thinking about like how this app [TS]

  should be or how this thing should be [TS]

  actually like you know work through the [TS]

  entire thing in your head to see like [TS]

  you know maybe like to maybe think like [TS]

  maybe there's a reason why doesn't that [TS]

  way right or maybe that would present [TS]

  more challenges and then we often just [TS]

  like we're trying to like you know as as [TS]

  our armchair people trying to tell Apple [TS]

  what to do [TS]

  like what if they did that like how [TS]

  would that what are the other [TS]

  ramifications of that so if if I didn't [TS]

  do the button bar thing if I kept the [TS]

  Delete in there [TS]

  what other way that how else could i [TS]

  make it actually discoverable people and [TS]

  so the way that the Apple has to do with [TS]

  that are all that you know you're [TS]

  reading from the Higgs if this is the [TS]

  gospel well get to that next but the way [TS]

  they do it is on the resulting screen so [TS]

  its look at mail mail is always a good [TS]

  example of like standard UI kit [TS]

  stop it is always good inspiration a [TS]

  reference point for that so look at mail [TS]

  with male you open the message as if you [TS]

  see if you assume that you don't know [TS]

  how to swype on table cells to delete [TS]

  things which most people don't [TS]

  if you open the message in the message [TS]

  window there's delete button so if you [TS]

  don't know how to stop on the table view [TS]

  you're still seeing delete buttons all [TS]

  the time so if I were to go down this [TS]

  path with overcast intent to have to to [TS]

  have like you know single tap to open [TS]

  the message and to have a swipe offer [TS]

  the delete or you know sales have to be [TS]

  completed by the way had before [TS]

  how else could i make delete more [TS]

  discoverable so one way to do it would [TS]

  be if i put delete in the info pane [TS]

  which I could do what I forget whether I [TS]

  did it or not but I could do that you [TS]

  have delete be one of the buttons in the [TS]

  info pane but in typical playback you're [TS]

  not using the info pane typical playback [TS]

  you're hitting the episode then it [TS]

  begins playing in the screen if it's [TS]

  this way and so it would have to be in [TS]

  the now playing screen so now look at [TS]

  the now playing screen where I put it [TS]

  no no one's arguing that you should get [TS]

  rid of the bar at least I'm certainly [TS]

  wasn't I told me you okay people are you [TS]

  have to it's different but I'm saying [TS]

  like batting swipe to delete as a [TS]

  shortcut for the people who happen to [TS]

  know which is it definitely a tiny [TS]

  detail nice to have thing that is not [TS]

  essential for a three-point know that's [TS]

  why i said the bar is obviously an [TS]

  improvement like just you know hundred [TS]

  percent and in fact I think you can it's [TS]

  not obvious to a lot of people on [TS]

  twitter at well that I think that the [TS]

  other thing the bar it gives you looking [TS]

  at it is i don't know how much metrics [TS]

  are collecting in terms of usage but you [TS]

  have a lot of room [TS]

  not a lot at and I don't know what a how [TS]

  common the you know add to playlist you [TS]

  know the plus hamburger thing and the [TS]

  star thing are or even the shit like you [TS]

  have enough room to actually use that [TS]

  bar as a place to highlight new features [TS]

  in 4.0 or whatever as they come [TS]

  and I think it's important to have a [TS]

  moment like that and burying it under [TS]

  info or putting on the now playing [TS]

  screeching halt much worse this is [TS]

  merely a question of and I don't [TS]

  understand how this is spun out into the [TS]

  giant big thing is this is such a minor [TS]

  thing like this is not a problem with [TS]

  the application at all it's just like [TS]

  it's a problem with my thumb still doing [TS]

  a thing and I'm just exploring why it [TS]

  might do that is to continue to provide [TS]

  affordances for the tiny amount of [TS]

  people who who are used to or their [TS]

  thumbs are used to doing a certain thing [TS]

  in a way that doesn't attract it all [TS]

  from the increased discoverability [TS]

  provided by the little bar if people [TS]

  arguing against the bar entirely to go [TS]

  back to the old way I think they [TS]

  probably doesn't have been using the app [TS]

  long enough because when i first started [TS]

  using with a little bar to it feels [TS]

  weird you used to using overcast for at [TS]

  this point like 10 years right [TS]

  use the tapping to play a thing and you [TS]

  tap the play thing in the podcast [TS]

  doesn't start playing that's something I [TS]

  got used to and it's not as if the first [TS]

  type doesn't do anything [TS]

  the first step reveals the bar so it's [TS]

  not like with swiping where the swiping [TS]

  just literally does nothing does not [TS]

  give you any progress towards your [TS]

  delete action you're trying to perform [TS]

  tapping reveals the bar you have a [TS]

  visual cue that there's something else [TS]

  that you have to do and usually i'm [TS]

  doing playlist anyway so just playing [TS]

  one after the other so it's not a big [TS]

  deal [TS]

  yeah I again I until this podcast did [TS]

  not even consider the idea of leaving [TS]

  the swine [TS]

  buttons in and also leaving the bar in [TS]

  so I i actually I'm gonna go to see if I [TS]

  can do that easily without massive [TS]

  horrible side effects because of my [TS]

  table you abuse that you have in the old [TS]

  1i don't even know if you had this did [TS]

  you have the mail style SuperDuper swipe [TS]

  it was like three buttons over there [TS]

  yeah I had that like where you go all [TS]

  the way to the end just deletes it [TS]

  oh no that was never made available it [TS]

  male always that whatever tableview male [TS]

  uses always gets cool features like that [TS]

  before they're available in the public [TS]

  API so like like they they had the first [TS]

  action buttons there for I think an [TS]

  entire iOS version before it was easy to [TS]

  do that you do that with other ways and [TS]

  and then they later once they gave us [TS]

  the API to make those action buttons [TS]

  then mail got the ability to have the [TS]

  full drag all the way across four delete [TS]

  and I've I don't they ever made [TS]

  available to anybody but that's a cool [TS]

  feature i hope it doesn't come to table [TS]

  views because it's it's definitely like [TS]

  they were getting into the realm of like [TS]

  not expert features but features that [TS]

  hopefully never bother anybody [TS]

  if you don't know they exist but once [TS]

  you know they exist it becomes like [TS]

  addictive to be able to goshen just you [TS]

  know knockout think the only thing i [TS]

  don't like about that feature is that if [TS]

  you swipe up if you swipe mail messages [TS]

  left there's an unread option is on the [TS]

  side which does anything like you swipe [TS]

  hard enough and just mark and right [TS]

  that's cool if you swipe it right you [TS]

  have that super mode where if you try to [TS]

  far enough to just delete it and if and [TS]

  far most button is trash but the other [TS]

  two buttons that offers are more and [TS]

  flag and so if you're opening that menu [TS]

  in order to flag the message that's kind [TS]

  of the opposite of putting in the trash [TS]

  but if you drag just very slightly too [TS]

  far and open the message up to delete it [TS]

  yeah it's it's a fine line with the with [TS]

  the swiping well it's it's a bad [TS]

  decision like to me i think that that [TS]

  everything that's not trash should be on [TS]

  the other direction swipe menu if [TS]

  they're gonna do that but if you're [TS]

  going to have this all the way swipe [TS]

  gesture because it's too easy to do this [TS]

  destructive action when you're trying to [TS]

  do flag or more i have the opposite [TS]

  problem where i guess im to lazy with [TS]

  the swipe and I wanted to delete it but [TS]

  it didn't quite go far enough and have [TS]

  to give a second attempt on it but i can [TS]

  see the opposite being church with is [TS]

  definitely with anything gestural that's [TS]

  the problem [TS]

  that's the good thing about the bathroom [TS]

  i just really feel so good when they're [TS]

  right but you get it's like game [TS]

  controlling the video game you get a [TS]

  little bit wrong and because it's not a [TS]

  precise thing because it is inherently a [TS]

  fuzzy thing it's really difficult to get [TS]

  sort of the you know the control scheme [TS]

  just right for everybody and everybody's [TS]

  a little bit different as opposed to the [TS]

  much more analytical world of pointers [TS]

  and mouse control and how big targets [TS]

  have to be you can it it's easier to [TS]

  measure that is generally a more precise [TS]

  thing although you know you mean you did [TS]

  the basics here for the little bar [TS]

  trashes far away from the play button [TS]

  play is not all out a lasting traction [TS]

  all around the right because the middle [TS]

  is easier to hit the edges of the screen [TS]

  like it's even you know that everything [TS]

  you've just described about the [TS]

  ergonomics of where items are in [TS]

  relation to each other and how easy it [TS]

  is to accidently is revealed in the bar [TS]

  don't think you can maybe argue about is [TS]

  whether the center is appropriate for [TS]

  play but i think it is [TS]

  yeah yeah I'd that i don't i don't think [TS]

  i would hear any arguments about that i [TS]

  think it again it's like it's like if [TS]

  you think about where where else would [TS]

  you put these things like it you come to [TS]

  pretty similar conclusions i think with [TS]

  a lot of this stuff anyway so yeah i'll [TS]

  look into the double gesture thing [TS]

  because that that that does make some [TS]

  sense i do want to address though the [TS]

  the whole like you know Hague adherence [TS]

  to standards everything else as as [TS]

  gospel at apple and and for those who [TS]

  don't know his the human interface [TS]

  guidelines it's been a document apple [TS]

  has published forever [TS]

  I and they revise it over time with new [TS]

  os's and a new you know new knowledge [TS]

  but basically it's like how it's like [TS]

  the standards for how your interface [TS]

  should look at work and be laid out it [TS]

  for apples platforms over the years has [TS]

  always been to debate over the hague and [TS]

  whether it's okay to violate it went ok [TS]

  to violate it and it's I think it's [TS]

  similar to like rules of grammar for [TS]

  poetry you know I think it's like you're [TS]

  allowed to violate the heck if you if [TS]

  you know what you're doing and you have [TS]

  good reason [TS]

  basically or you know like it's not like [TS]

  the set in stone thing it and apple [TS]

  violates the hague all the time with [TS]

  their own apps like the they blatantly [TS]

  violated and they don't care because [TS]

  they think they know better and in many [TS]

  cases that's true i am a developer for [TS]

  years I said I'm not a designer [TS]

  and when it became clear to me that I [TS]

  was doing the vast majority of the [TS]

  design in my apps i stop saying that I [TS]

  think now no matter what anyone else [TS]

  says I think of myself as an app [TS]

  developer and designer combo in one even [TS]

  though I'm not as good at the design [TS]

  part of them the development part I now [TS]

  do both of those rules i think that i [TS]

  now have a good enough design sense that [TS]

  I I can judge or I I can kind of have [TS]

  some leeway in deciding when to break a [TS]

  standard rule and it doesn't always work [TS]

  sometimes after all back I have lots of [TS]

  crazy ideas and make them are awful but [TS]

  i think i now have earned myself the [TS]

  right to break rules sometimes because [TS]

  the fact is in order to do good design [TS]

  and especially order to move things [TS]

  forward you have to break the rules the [TS]

  rules were never written to be gospel [TS]

  they were never written to be here two [TS]

  hundred percent at as soon as any [TS]

  version of the pig is published Apple [TS]

  already has apps out there that violated [TS]

  all over the place because the hey guys [TS]

  it's kind of like using stock UI kit [TS]

  controls with stock themes on them it's [TS]

  like you can do that for most people [TS]

  that's a reasonable default that's a [TS]

  good starting place if you aren't [TS]

  confident whether you can break the [TS]

  rules you should just do that like [TS]

  that's that's fine but it's also nice to [TS]

  have apps that don't follow all the [TS]

  rules they push things forward or they [TS]

  do things differently and that is how [TS]

  progress made and that is often it that [TS]

  often is necessary to result in an [TS]

  overall better designer better more [TS]

  usable app yeah you know I think of it [TS]

  is that to me the best user interface is [TS]

  one you don't have to think about right [TS]

  the in it just feels frictionless that [TS]

  that things are where you expect them to [TS]

  be as an example as an unrelated example [TS]

  in in my car I feel like everything is [TS]

  where I expected to be even within I [TS]

  Drive which a lot of people hate it [TS]

  makes sense to my brain [TS]

  maybe it doesn't to yours or to whomever [TS]

  is what makes sense to me into the best [TS]

  and eat like I said the best user [TS]

  interfaces when you don't think about [TS]

  and the moment I have to think about [TS]

  that user interface about how I ain't [TS]

  accomplish a task then I'm i'm [TS]

  experiencing friction and I'm taken out [TS]

  of the moment of what i'm trying to do [TS]

  and we were beat me up a lot about this [TS]

  yo swipe to delete thing because I i [TS]

  think i speak for John and saying my [TS]

  natural gut reaction is to just [TS]

  immediately swipe and then i have to [TS]

  think wait no no this is a place that [TS]

  doesn't work [TS]

  Oh what do I do oh yeah I tap and then I [TS]

  tap again well that's fine it's just a [TS]

  guy can't work the way I expected to and [TS]

  that doesn't really negate anything you [TS]

  said about how the big isn't it it's not [TS]

  laws its guidelines you know a was a [TS]

  stupid movie part of the Caribbean style [TS]

  but I don't know it takes someone who is [TS]

  very confident and with a lot of skill [TS]

  like you had said to violate it in ways [TS]

  that make sense like somebody in the [TS]

  chatroom I already lost it was noted [TS]

  that pole to refresh wasn't in the hague [TS]

  and that's a perfect example of of [TS]

  something that wasn't in the human [TS]

  interface guidelines but just made [TS]

  freakin sense and and that was a great [TS]

  choice but other times i think you have [TS]

  to be very confident and very very sure [TS]

  you're right in order to get away with [TS]

  violating it I think that the Higgs [TS]

  changed over the years time for me to do [TS]

  more old man stuff here when you guys [TS]

  talk about the heck you're talking about [TS]

  like the umpteenth iteration in the [TS]

  modern era I know you guys started with [TS]

  apple before iOS but not much before [TS]

  like three years before something right [TS]

  the human interface guidelines used to [TS]

  be very very different than they than [TS]

  they are now one thing that they shared [TS]

  as the thing that you're talking about [TS]

  Casey in the beginning part of what was [TS]

  revolutionary about both the mac and the [TS]

  human interface guidelines that came [TS]

  along with it is the South the selling [TS]

  point of the mac and a selling point of [TS]

  the graphical user interface was there [TS]

  will be a standard set of controls and a [TS]

  standard guidelines for how to use them [TS]

  so that if you learned how to use one [TS]

  program on [TS]

  Mac you can go to another program and [TS]

  reuse a lot of those skills because they [TS]

  would also have a menu bar with [TS]

  pull-down menus it also use the same [TS]

  command keys for things would also have [TS]

  windows with the button at the [TS]

  confirmation but on the right in the [TS]

  cancel button on the left and all you [TS]

  know the whole nine yards interface [TS]

  consistency which was a revolutionary [TS]

  and novel thing in an age when on das [TS]

  use word star and it had absolutely [TS]

  nothing in its interface in common with [TS]

  wordperfect or whatever some other [TS]

  contemporary even though they're both [TS]

  word processors they didn't copy and [TS]

  paste Texas and within format the same [TS]

  way that the same menu structure to use [TS]

  and keys [TS]

  it was like I know WordStar can i [TS]

  transfer those skills over to it you [TS]

  could transfer your basic skills of [TS]

  knowing where the keys are in the [TS]

  keyboard and maybe if you're lucky that [TS]

  they shared something about how their [TS]

  interface work but they rapidly diverge [TS]

  whereas you use Microsoft Word or mac [TS]

  right is you know some of the menus for [TS]

  the same there was a font menu is the [TS]

  font sizing the fact that was menu bar [TS]

  at all like that and just in general [TS]

  using anything on the Mac you were able [TS]

  to take the skills that you learn and [TS]

  build on them to more rapidly get up to [TS]

  speed and other updates that's the whole [TS]

  point of the interface guidelines and [TS]

  the way the document was different [TS]

  is that especially in the beginning it [TS]

  did way way less of explaining to you [TS]

  how things should look for what you [TS]

  should do and way way more of explaining [TS]

  the reasoning behind it do this with [TS]

  your whatever is because and then [TS]

  explain the philosophy behind it and [TS]

  very often that philosophy had had more [TS]

  of a foundation on you know user testing [TS]

  stuff look at The Hague today even even [TS]

  just the first like aqua big for for Mac [TS]

  os10 so much of it is about how big the [TS]

  border should be between items like I [TS]

  mean this is even talk about like sighs [TS]

  minimum size of touch targets but just [TS]

  like this is how you should lay out your [TS]

  dialogue this is how far away buttons [TS]

  label should be from their fields and [TS]

  buttons should be from there whatever [TS]

  this is how to hold this should be and [TS]

  this is how much padding that should be [TS]

  all things like that's all great and you [TS]

  should totally have that interface [TS]

  builder should do it for you [TS]

  automatically which they added you know [TS]

  like that's all fine but that does not [TS]

  tell me why and that is how things [TS]

  should look which is related to how they [TS]

  work very often in terms of the size of [TS]

  of touch targets and readability and why [TS]

  labels that are aligned this way easier [TS]

  to scan all the stuff but there's less [TS]

  of the less of the philosophy lesson of [TS]

  like let me just complain explain to the [TS]

  concepts and here are some guidelines [TS]

  but now you see these guidelines see [TS]

  here's the concepts that that they flow [TS]

  out of and when you're provided with the [TS]

  concepts and actually given more free [TS]

  rein in the old days to say follow these [TS]

  these concepts in your custom interfaces [TS]

  and yours will feel like ours rather [TS]

  than saying just use our controls [TS]

  because that's the only way you could [TS]

  possibly do this the new ones feel more [TS]

  like make your applications look like [TS]

  ours down to the pixel use our standard [TS]

  controls and we were really explain to [TS]

  the reasons why is why is this alignment [TS]

  or the spacing beneficial why should you [TS]

  phrase the words in the dialogue in this [TS]

  manner whether it's imperative why [TS]

  should use verbs or buttons or why [TS]

  should you know like the whole lot why [TS]

  should you not use differently styled [TS]

  text and you know they were used to have [TS]

  reasons for it they would say when our [TS]

  testing we found you put a bunch of old [TS]

  words and dialogue that's all people [TS]

  read so don't make bold words make [TS]

  everything in the same consistent fine [TS]

  just making this up this is not a real [TS]

  thing but like to explain the reasoning [TS]

  behind things that I feel like has been [TS]

  lacking and because that's lacking I [TS]

  feel like the human interface guidelines [TS]

  for iOS and for the mac are way less [TS]

  authoritative now in terms of how how [TS]

  developers should take them like just [TS]

  because it's in the hague that it's just [TS]

  one other persons are a couple other [TS]

  people's ideas and it's important for [TS]

  you to know what they expect from you [TS]

  from construction from consistent for [TS]

  the sake of consistency with the other [TS]

  applications but they're not going to [TS]

  explain their reasoning and you suspect [TS]

  that you might have a better way I think [TS]

  you're much more likely today to [TS]

  actually have a better way then you are [TS]

  back in the old days where a nobody knew [TS]

  anything and be Apple do so much more [TS]

  than everybody else because developers [TS]

  were coming up on the first time and [TS]

  happily said put many many years into it [TS]

  and they were you know the world's [TS]

  leading experts on making [TS]

  consumer-facing personal computer gooeys [TS]

  for a very long time and they would they [TS]

  would show their work they would say [TS]

  here's why here's why we're doing all [TS]

  this stuff and you really go well that [TS]

  makes sense and if they said they did a [TS]

  bunch of user testing you have a user [TS]

  experience lab for you to test this [TS]

  stuff [TS]

  I have you hey product resident from [TS]

  that from the jobs error was seemed like [TS]

  he was much less of a fan of you know [TS]

  the scientific method and user testing [TS]

  and much more of a fan of using his gut [TS]

  and it's got was pretty good but [TS]

  sometimes you got like you know [TS]

  stretch-leather and stuff so yeah anyway [TS]

  uh oh [TS]

  all this is to say that I have you know [TS]

  I i put much less take in the end apples [TS]

  human interface guidelines now than I [TS]

  did many decades ago but the guideline [TS]

  that you know that the the guiding [TS]

  principle i think every developer uses [TS]

  who's making their applications is to [TS]

  try to make it fit in with what the user [TS]

  expects again like if you made a mac [TS]

  application and you didn't have a menu [TS]

  bar or you're like the file and edit [TS]

  menus were in the opposite order even if [TS]

  you think you have a really good reason [TS]

  for that [TS]

  it's probably not a good idea but if you [TS]

  want to put different items in your file [TS]

  menu as long as quick as at the bottom [TS]

  if you're really old that's where used [TS]

  to be everybody is always quit the [TS]

  bottom people are okay with your shotgun [TS]

  and a few other items and when and you [TS]

  know third-party applications like Marco [TS]

  said push the interface story because [TS]

  the Apple can't cover all your possible [TS]

  scenario so photoshop starts doing [TS]

  something and photoshop does it for 25 [TS]

  years eventually [TS]

  well that's in the human interface [TS]

  guidelines not if you're making graphics [TS]

  application it would be a good idea for [TS]

  you to perhaps take a few conventions [TS]

  from Photoshop because it's so important [TS]

  in its field and I think it's the same [TS]

  way a lot of Twitter clients get away [TS]

  with the sideswipes which I don't know [TS]

  who invented that but it's all over the [TS]

  place and Twitter clients up because if [TS]

  you use a lot of our clients eventually [TS]

  that's what you get used to and in the [TS]

  realm of podcasts apps i feel like if [TS]

  you use a lot of podcasts apps i don't [TS]

  use a lot of them but I imagine there [TS]

  are some conventions for controlling [TS]

  things that they would have some [TS]

  commonality between the you begin to [TS]

  read read landscape and get used to [TS]

  using how do you want every time of [TS]

  application to be different but where [TS]

  you start falling back to the bedrock of [TS]

  expectation is that for things like [TS]

  muscle memory and you know the fact that [TS]

  using a table view at all and the fact [TS]

  that you know that the transitions [TS]

  between things sort of mental and [TS]

  spatial model of how the application [TS]

  flows from left to right and for coming [TS]

  up for [TS]

  bottom also judgment calls to make their [TS]

  but in general you try to keep it [TS]

  consistent and you know if you miss one [TS]

  little tiny corner where now-deleted [TS]

  works a little bit differently it's [TS]

  probably not a big deal especially since [TS]

  the elite is probably not a common [TS]

  operation that's no but it's if it's a [TS]

  place where you can if it's a place [TS]

  where you can return that uh where you [TS]

  can fulfill that expectation in a way [TS]

  that lets you retain all the other [TS]

  benefits it's a pretty clean one [TS]

  I mean I i would question even more of [TS]

  the feature you do have their with your [TS]

  memory for was like being able to [TS]

  dismiss the thing that comes up from the [TS]

  bottom by sliding sideways makes not [TS]

  much sense no spatially speaking as [TS]

  probably miss feature the only reason [TS]

  it's there is to honor the muscle memory [TS]

  of users of your specific application [TS]

  because if you didn't ever use the [TS]

  previous version overcast you would [TS]

  never expect that to work you would [TS]

  never even try it right but you're just [TS]

  doing that to just give a little help to [TS]

  those people I think this is the same [TS]

  category of things in fact i would i [TS]

  would trade these in terms of what is [TS]

  more beneficial in the long run i would [TS]

  say if i had to sacrifice once you don't [TS]

  you just keep both of them but if I had [TS]

  to sacrifice one I would say besides [TS]

  what people will get used to the card [TS]

  coming for the bottom pretty quick and [TS]

  it's just a gesture in a different [TS]

  direction whereas the swipe to delete [TS]

  others are still being trained by the [TS]

  whole rest of their entire iOS device to [TS]

  keep doing that responsive tonight by [TS]

  warby parker to start your free home [TS]

  try-on today go to worry Parker calm / [TS]

  ATP worry Parker believes that I glasses [TS]

  should not cost as much as a phone they [TS]

  have prescription eyeglasses starting [TS]

  just $95 including prescription lenses [TS]

  and they make buying glasses online easy [TS]

  and risk-free sounds kind of crazy but [TS]

  here's how they do it they had this home [TS]

  try-on program [TS]

  this allows you to order up to five [TS]

  pairs of eyeglasses and you a ship new [TS]

  for free and you try them on for five [TS]

  days with no obligation to buy when [TS]

  you're done you shipping back in the [TS]

  free prepaid return label you're out no [TS]

  money for this whole process and again [TS]

  no obligation to buy if you want to buy [TS]

  of course to make it very very easy they [TS]

  have a or Parker app from the app store [TS]

  also as a home trying companion feature [TS]

  which allows you to quickly take photos [TS]

  you can wait wearing all the frames that [TS]

  you're trying on you can stitch into a [TS]

  video you [TS]

  share with friends and family to help [TS]

  you pick a winner you get feedback from [TS]

  everybody buying glasses through them is [TS]

  in my opinion probably easier than [TS]

  buying them from anybody else [TS]

  and of course they do good in the world [TS]

  to for every pair of eyeglasses you buy [TS]

  a pair is attributed to someone in need [TS]

  through various vision charities around [TS]

  the world you gotta check it out the [TS]

  warby parker glasses are great my wife [TS]

  has a couple of pairs she loves them [TS]

  I don't wear glasses but i do have [TS]

  sunglasses from them because they also [TS]

  have sunglasses including polarized [TS]

  lenses starting just $95 for [TS]

  non-prescription and with prescription [TS]

  starting just $275 just like their [TS]

  eyeglasses that you can also get some [TS]

  glasses through the home try-on program [TS]

  these are premium polarized lenses that [TS]

  are scratch resistant and a hundred [TS]

  percent UV protection [TS]

  you gotta check out work Parker their [TS]

  glasses are so good they're fashionable [TS]

  and it's so easy to buy from them last [TS]

  are just $95 including prescription [TS]

  lenses lenses include anti-glare and [TS]

  scratch coatings check it out warby [TS]

  parker calm / ATP for your home trying [TS]

  kit today thank you very much to worry [TS]

  Parker for sponsoring our show [TS]

  ah before we move on from overcast i did [TS]

  want to briefly ask you about this this [TS]

  new ad model and i'm not entirely sure I [TS]

  understand the nuances of it and so I [TS]

  I'm going to defer my chief summarizer [TS]

  in chief role to you [TS]

  Marco if you could summarize what this [TS]

  this new setup is and in kinda how it [TS]

  works and broad strokes sure [TS]

  so basically before you know it by i [TS]

  have as as John likes to remind me i [TS]

  change my business model however cast [TS]

  roughly every you know nine to 18 months [TS]

  I've gone through many of them now [TS]

  the one I've settled on since this past [TS]

  September which is just going to be a [TS]

  tweak the one before it is basically [TS]

  adds as like the main source of income [TS]

  and then paid subscriptions to remove [TS]

  the ads if you want to and the way this [TS]

  is worked out over time is actually not [TS]

  that way the way it's worked out since [TS]

  sep tember when i add these these a [TS]

  Google AdMob ads and by the way just as [TS]

  quickly occasion I know there are other [TS]

  ad networks but they're all worse in [TS]

  some major way [TS]

  either they have creepier code or they [TS]

  require more sdk integration they're [TS]

  kind of like networks where they have to [TS]

  add lots of SDKs to your apt for all [TS]

  these different companies or they just [TS]

  don't sell enough inventory you end up [TS]

  getting very little money from from your [TS]

  ads and a lot of like unsold inventory [TS]

  us because like show nothing for or show [TS]

  your own you know splash thing for [TS]

  whatever else so I think you're going to [TS]

  do third-party ads I think AdMob is the [TS]

  way to do it and but what I found with [TS]

  AdMob ultimately is that the ads were of [TS]

  lower quality than i wanted and they [TS]

  made very little money and as I kept [TS]

  going through and and going in there [TS]

  within their control panel and turning [TS]

  off various flick categories of crappy [TS]

  ads I didn't want to see things like you [TS]

  know casino stuff and like we're like [TS]

  sexy dating services like I would turn [TS]

  that I would find those and turn them [TS]

  off and then make even less money [TS]

  because it turns out all the crap ads [TS]

  make a lot of money which is why he run [TS]

  them so basically it was making very [TS]

  little money it ended up like I thought [TS]

  I was going to make the most money from [TS]

  the ads and then some money from [TS]

  subscriptions and it ended up that was [TS]

  making ninety percent of the money from [TS]

  subscriptions totally flipped and that's [TS]

  actually fine [TS]

  I like it that way I'd rather have [TS]

  people paying me that have to deal with [TS]

  ads and the ads the presence of the ads [TS]

  increase subscriptions dramatically from [TS]

  the previous system which is basically [TS]

  pay if you feel like it like patrons you [TS]

  know just pay if you liked me and that [TS]

  that work a little bit but it was not it [TS]

  wasn't working enough so it succeeded as [TS]

  a business model but not because of the [TS]

  ads it succeeded because there were ads [TS]

  there but the ads could be anything [TS]

  honestly I'm sure I i'm actually see a [TS]

  slightly lower subscription rate because [TS]

  the ads are no longer crappy but I [TS]

  they're also now they're playing screen [TS]

  so you see the more so I don't bounce [TS]

  itself out anyway so I decided that I [TS]

  was no longer interested in running [TS]

  Google AdMob ads for lots of different [TS]

  reasons [TS]

  quality of the ads low revenue those are [TS]

  major factors but also as i talked with [TS]

  the blog post a little bit here I think [TS]

  I i'm no longer very comfortable [TS]

  embedding closed-source add libraries [TS]

  into my appt from ad companies [TS]

  I think as a developer you have to be [TS]

  conscious of that there has to be a [TS]

  really good reason if you to embed [TS]

  someone else's clothes source code and [TS]

  your app because that can do anything [TS]

  and it's on you like that that can [TS]

  access all of your user data whatever [TS]

  users that are doing with the app [TS]

  whatever they are entering into the app [TS]

  that code has complete access to it that [TS]

  code can get you in trouble with apple [TS]

  that code can do things that are [TS]

  prohibited that code can require you to [TS]

  have all these advertising disclaimers [TS]

  that that your user see or that a [TS]

  preview sees that can get you in trouble [TS]

  with a preview [TS]

  there's all and there's all sorts of [TS]

  stuff like baggage that you sign up for [TS]

  when you are adding someone else's [TS]

  clothes source code to your app and so [TS]

  after there had to be a really really [TS]

  good reason for that recipe in there and [TS]

  I no longer had a good reason the only [TS]

  reason I didn't remember what i thought [TS]

  was the only option [TS]

  the option between that and going out of [TS]

  business basically and so I took that [TS]

  option but then the business model [TS]

  changed and the environment change you [TS]

  know that all happened in September then [TS]

  November happened then January happened [TS]

  it's a different world now and so now [TS]

  I'm I i basically this thing alright [TS]

  well now let me see you know what can i [TS]

  do myself because it and because the [TS]

  google ads made so little money for me [TS]

  and i canít people other people have [TS]

  more success with google ads that I have [TS]

  I don't want to like say that they don't [TS]

  work for anybody because they obviously [TS]

  worked for lots of people but my my tap [TS]

  through rate was awful lot like and and [TS]

  most of like you have basically how much [TS]

  money you make depends extremely heavily [TS]

  on your tap through rate and there's [TS]

  lots of reasons for that none of which i [TS]

  was willing to fix like so there's like [TS]

  for example if you want a day if you [TS]

  want to make more money you should put [TS]

  the ad somewhere people are more likely [TS]

  to accidentally tap them i'm not going [TS]

  to do that you should have the ads on [TS]

  every screen of your app or more screens [TS]

  of your app but I wasn't doing that i [TS]

  had the only lists screens before they [TS]

  were too big for now playing you should [TS]

  enable things like animated banners I [TS]

  didn't want to do that because a lot of [TS]

  like those pay better you know like [TS]

  there's all sorts of things that you can [TS]

  do to make ads work better that I was [TS]

  unwilling to do so it's not [TS]

  entirely add mobs fault that I had such [TS]

  a bad experience it was just my app and [TS]

  my you know strict requirements for it [TS]

  he knows what I could stomach and what I [TS]

  want to do anyway I decided you know [TS]

  since AdMob ads were making so little [TS]

  for me i could replace them with pretty [TS]

  much anything and it probably wouldn't [TS]

  much anything and it probably wouldn't [TS]

  negatively affect my business so because [TS]

  like the main risk with with running my [TS]

  own ads is what if no one buys them what [TS]

  if it turns out they're really hard to [TS]

  sell [TS]

  I wish they might be you know these [TS]

  aren't podcast as their display ads and [TS]

  display ads are hard to sell right now I [TS]

  only have very very limited data right [TS]

  now with you know these trial partners i [TS]

  have now in there but you know I have no [TS]

  idea even what kind of views or tap [TS]

  through rates or subscription rates that [TS]

  they're going to get in like three [TS]

  months [TS]

  you know right now it's all over when [TS]

  everyone's looking at him and poking [TS]

  them and and seeing what they're like so [TS]

  the data right now is nice but it's not [TS]

  really representative probably so i have [TS]

  no idea how they're gonna perform but [TS]

  the fact is i am way happier with them [TS]

  they're totally under my control [TS]

  there is no weird closed source code go [TS]

  into the world's biggest advertising [TS]

  company it is just completely my appt [TS]

  doing my thing the way I designed it [TS]

  under my control the privacy of them is [TS]

  great because i don't want anything [TS]

  because I don't want any of your data [TS]

  like I don't think I want the least data [TS]

  I can possibly get from you to make my [TS]

  have work if you if you ever are curious [TS]

  what I call it read the privacy policy [TS]

  and overcast it's very short [TS]

  human-readable I wrote it all it's you [TS]

  know it's very very clear and so I'm [TS]

  much happier with the setup now and so [TS]

  what the setup is is my own ads they [TS]

  show in a plane screen and in the ad [TS]

  podcast screen the ad unit can show [TS]

  either ads for websites apps in the App [TS]

  Store or podcasts and overcast and and [TS]

  so you can actually advertise for a [TS]

  podcast in the podcast app and when you [TS]

  tap these ads it brings up the sheet [TS]

  that is just the overcast add podcast [TS]

  screen the standard screen and show it [TS]

  has all the episodes in it they all have [TS]

  all the buttons the casey and John hate [TS]

  with you know you can you can add to [TS]

  queue you can you know you can subscribe [TS]

  there you can download whatever else and [TS]

  so it's all this the standard native [TS]

  interface i don't know how many [TS]

  podcasters are going to be willing to [TS]

  pay for ads long-term i can tell you i [TS]

  have an inbox full of emails from [TS]

  podcasters who are interested right now [TS]

  that i am having a very hard time [TS]

  answering all once however I [TS]

  there's tons of interest right now but [TS]

  you know once you get into the [TS]

  nitty-gritty of like you know getting [TS]

  people to actually commit and to pay you [TS]

  everything changes so i have no idea [TS]

  what's going to be like a long-term but [TS]

  the fact is I don't need to sell very [TS]

  many ads to make more than i was making [TS]

  before and even if i make less than was [TS]

  making before as long as people keep [TS]

  subscribing [TS]

  I'm still fine so I think I made the [TS]

  right move it also on the same by the [TS]

  same logic and for all the same reasons [TS]

  i also in this update removed the fabric [TS]

  analytics from the absolute there's no [TS]

  more third-party analytic services [TS]

  either all I do now is I have a very [TS]

  very basic analytics class that I wrote [TS]

  myself that just log some very basic [TS]

  information and it can be used to do [TS]

  things like what you're describing [TS]

  earlier John about like a measuring how [TS]

  many people use the delete button or [TS]

  whatever it out whatever you were asking [TS]

  about I can do something that right now [TS]

  I'm measuring almost nothing in the app [TS]

  I talked a little about the radar this [TS]

  week the short version there is a data [TS]

  analytics for a while now with fabric [TS]

  and I found some actionable things from [TS]

  it but most of the I was collecting was [TS]

  neither useful more actionable I i find [TS]

  analytics are great too [TS]

  like when you have a specific question [TS]

  trying to answer so like when i was [TS]

  developing a guy i was curious a while [TS]

  back and maybe a year ago now so i added [TS]

  analytics for what type of output device [TS]

  people were listening on and i learned [TS]

  from that that a lot of people use the [TS]

  built-in speaker way more than I thought [TS]

  and so that's why I did the voice boost [TS]

  optimized speaker profile for the iphone [TS]

  speaker because it was I realize like [TS]

  wow a lot of people who is this is worth [TS]

  focusing attention on i also learned [TS]

  during times of that like at major parts [TS]

  of the watch act like you didn't even [TS]

  use the watch app what features of the [TS]

  watch app do they use like they actually [TS]

  go to the force touch menu by the way no [TS]

  difficult to do they actually like ever [TS]

  use the buttons on order mostly using it [TS]

  to read information and as a glance [TS]

  answer yes so I learned stuff like that [TS]

  but I can do that myself with very basic [TS]

  analytics like I don't need everything [TS]

  that [TS]

  that a full-blown analytics package [TS]

  offers today like various like [TS]

  conversion tracking different things and [TS]

  funnels all over the place and and all [TS]

  these like for attention like I don't [TS]

  that's the kind of stuff that like [TS]

  venture fund companies need I don't need [TS]

  that I don't have anybody asking for [TS]

  that information [TS]

  I don't care about that information so i [TS]

  don't need to collect so basically i'm [TS]

  gettin away now with incredibly simple [TS]

  analytics of just my own you know you [TS]

  know hand-rolled thing is a goddamn [TS]

  hipster my own [TS]

  yeah our artisanal analytics and now [TS]

  it's just a lot simpler and lower tech [TS]

  and but i can just now I can tell things [TS]

  like you know what how many people are [TS]

  using different devices like how many [TS]

  iphone 7 vs 7 plus do I have and that [TS]

  helps me decide things like what should [TS]

  i optimize this interface for you know [TS]

  should i optimize it for 5.5 inch [TS]

  screens or 4.7 or 44 point out you know [TS]

  and stuff like that that stuff I need to [TS]

  know I don't need to know the level of [TS]

  detail that all these commercial [TS]

  analytics packages provide and [TS]

  especially at the cost of having their [TS]

  own closed source code in my app and [TS]

  exposing all my user data to them they [TS]

  like best about these a new ads is the [TS]

  fact that they are podcast ads in a [TS]

  podcast player right built-in relevance [TS]

  and if you if you ever run out of [TS]

  inventory which you wouldn't because you [TS]

  can just lower the price and get any [TS]

  inventory wanted but if you ever did run [TS]

  out I would be happy to see that slot [TS]

  spilled was just pulled from your own [TS]

  like most recommended section because [TS]

  you have ready-made inventory of you [TS]

  know I don't know how relevant but like [TS]

  hey here are some popular here's a [TS]

  podcast with some episodes that are [TS]

  being recommended a lot in insert time [TS]

  window and then just throw them in the [TS]

  most recommended thing you tap them you [TS]

  go into the episode it's it's like a [TS]

  no-brainer [TS]

  I i I'd act also echo your fear that [TS]

  they will not be offensive enough to [TS]

  make people pay because they're not [TS]

  they're Pleasant like their podcast dead [TS]

  and they're not you know it's not be [TS]

  like you know what I was a mesothelioma [TS]

  or whatever like I i do want to clarify [TS]

  their on all podcasts as theirs and [TS]

  theirs and for however there's not for [TS]

  linode there are a couple of websites [TS]

  well I I that you mention that when i [TS]

  saw the hover and I was like it cuz i [TS]

  see however i think that's a podcast had [TS]

  to because obviously there was [TS]

  so how about listen to imagine if it was [TS]

  like synchronized like when the hover [TS]

  and is playing on the show that the [TS]

  hover add got the hover banner got to [TS]

  display down the thing and include the [TS]

  people's codes there's all sorts of [TS]

  crazy business ideas that you could do [TS]

  here or competitive advertising where [TS]

  people could buy podcast advertising [TS]

  against that would run against the other [TS]

  podcast in the same genre this is all [TS]

  getting way too complicated and i agree [TS]

  that it you know if this is simply a way [TS]

  to replace that ten percent of money [TS]

  with a more pleasant experience then [TS]

  that's a win no matter what but I think [TS]

  that kind of like the moses i think of [TS]

  subjective i was talking about the [TS]

  fantasy google ad that you know it's far [TS]

  fewer ads but far more valuable because [TS]

  they're better targeted by some magic AI [TS]

  think i think even just basic better [TS]

  targeting of the fact that hey I know [TS]

  you're interested in podcast because [TS]

  you're listening to one you are great [TS]

  audience for me to advertise other [TS]

  podcast to because you are proven [TS]

  podcast listener and you're using a [TS]

  podcast client and guess what [TS]

  here's another podcast and that's why [TS]

  you can charge more money for that then [TS]

  you can for an ad for even something at [TS]

  like hover or something because although [TS]

  they are advertising as a podcast [TS]

  however is not technically podcast [TS]

  related but another podcast is and then [TS]

  a podcast can spend money advertising to [TS]

  each other and going to just like the [TS]

  app store ads yeah because like that's [TS]

  why it that's one reason need this for [TS]

  pocket and I was like and I've had all [TS]

  sorts of crazy ideas on how to possibly [TS]

  sell these things and is that but [TS]

  ultimately it came down to like of [TS]

  course this is the perfect place for an [TS]

  ad for podcast [TS]

  the only question is you know that the [TS]

  only doubt in my mind is you know [TS]

  whether enough podcasters will be [TS]

  willing and able to pay for an ad for [TS]

  their shows because most podcasters [TS]

  don't make a lot of money from [TS]

  sponsorships mostly most podcast don't [TS]

  even have sponsors most guys don't have [TS]

  audiences big enough to get sponsors so [TS]

  how many podcasts are going to be [TS]

  willing to pay for ads like I have no [TS]

  idea it it doesn't take a lot to to make [TS]

  this work [TS]

  you know it doesn't take you know you [TS]

  don't need thousands of advertisers you [TS]

  need tens of advertisers to to make this [TS]

  work really well like you know so so i [TS]

  think it will probably be okay [TS]

  I think one of the big challenges gonna [TS]

  be like I don't think podcasters have [TS]

  ever had away ever even thought about [TS]

  buying ads because there's never really [TS]

  been a place where you could buy an ad [TS]

  for a podcast that made sense because [TS]

  you were just saying like you can't just [TS]

  buy like you know a google search a door [TS]

  like a Facebook ad for your podcast and [TS]

  get anybody to click through because [TS]

  like you start losing you know targeting [TS]

  the faster like the chances that they [TS]

  are a podcast listener and who want to [TS]

  listen to your show like that [TS]

  combination gets multiplied and that's [TS]

  that's gonna be a pretty low number then [TS]

  says too much friction if you like and [TS]

  other venues like doing on the web if [TS]

  you're not already in a podcast player [TS]

  getting successfully described subscribe [TS]

  to podcast in your player of choice is [TS]

  difficult so I i counted that one time [TS]

  on the web and I find a podcast that I [TS]

  like and I'm disappointed when I don't [TS]

  see like either a link to the overcast [TS]

  URL where I can just save an overcast [TS]

  like they just give me an itunes link or [TS]

  something like that that's not no good [TS]

  to me i don't use that player right [TS]

  because you don't but the website can't [TS]

  know what player use but if I'm already [TS]

  in the player that i use is a one tab [TS]

  way to get an episode that's way less [TS]

  friction [TS]

  yeah exactly so i am really curious to [TS]

  see how this plays out and to see who [TS]

  buys his ads like you know once once [TS]

  people can actually start seeing my [TS]

  prices publicly like a few emails once [TS]

  people have data of what a month worth [TS]

  of clicks and new subscriptions look [TS]

  like and for how much money that could [TS]

  change things you know that because we'd [TS]

  right now none of us me the average none [TS]

  of us know whether these are going to be [TS]

  a good deal or not because we don't have [TS]

  enough data yet so we're gonna find out [TS]

  and it might be an incredibly good deal [TS]

  might end up being by far the best way [TS]

  to get new listeners to a podcast or it [TS]

  might be that there's just too few [TS]

  people for it to make any financial [TS]

  sense i don't know we're gonna find out [TS]

  and if that's the case then I'll just [TS]

  fill up a hover and don't care so few [TS]

  quick hits regarding that do you want to [TS]

  disclose even an order of magnitude of [TS]

  pricing like we talking tens of dollars [TS]

  or ten thousands of dollars or so he can [TS]

  you narrow it down because i assume that [TS]

  you're going to get a thousand emails [TS]

  about you know I don't even know how [TS]

  much this costs can afford this [TS]

  so is there like a rough order [TS]

  magnitude you can say for pricing as the [TS]

  as we record tonight which obviously [TS]

  could change no answer asked me a few [TS]

  weeks that that's why we'll have a much [TS]

  better idea of what these things will [TS]

  actually be charged for you know [TS]

  long-term her trying to the Marcos [TS]

  currently trying to talk himself off the [TS]

  ledge of making this an auction system [TS]

  so it's all right for him in this [TS]

  endeavor 11 system that i thought was [TS]

  using you kind of had there should be [TS]

  some way to to you know kind of [TS]

  automatically scale with demand so one [TS]

  thing I thought was just like just sell [TS]

  them for 30 days and just say you know [TS]

  here's how many ads there are the system [TS]

  right now and keep the price fixed and [TS]

  just you know that the market kind of [TS]

  work that out right because like if if [TS]

  the price is really low then a bunch of [TS]

  people will buy it and then every apple [TS]

  just get fewer impressions so it kind of [TS]

  is self-regulating I think I don't know [TS]

  this is I i I'm throwing around all [TS]

  these differences in my head of how they [TS]

  should be built house should be sold and [TS]

  the there's a reason why there are so [TS]

  few initial partners on board because [TS]

  everyone who's advertising it right now [TS]

  I've worked out i've gone to them in [TS]

  advance and say and said like hey here's [TS]

  what's going on I don't know what this [TS]

  is going to be yet and you know so it [TS]

  you know we're going to some in this [TS]

  kind of like trial mode and we're gonna [TS]

  share data you know I'm gonna tell you [TS]

  what this gets you and you're gonna tell [TS]

  me if you get click through on your [TS]

  website and everything else and we're [TS]

  gonna figure out what is it with this [TS]

  actually works because right now I have [TS]

  no idea [TS]

  so it's way too early i mean this has [TS]

  been the store for like a day and a half [TS]

  so it's just way too early for me to to [TS]

  have useful data yet so what is the [TS]

  appropriate mechanism by which you could [TS]

  be contact contacted if somebody wants [TS]

  to buy that you go to the site go to the [TS]

  contact page and it says there it says [TS]

  you know for a degrees email here so do [TS]

  that but it might want that overcast at [TS]

  them [TS]

  yeah and and it might be a week or two [TS]

  before i can actually get back to you [TS]

  with something useful [TS]

  alright and then finally out of this is [TS]

  more out of my own curiosity how are you [TS]

  are are you providing I mean you just [TS]

  hinted at it a second ago are you [TS]

  providing any sort of like analytics and [TS]

  is there like a portal for that or is [TS]

  this just you ripping off emails when [TS]

  the time comes like what's your [TS]

  intention [TS]

  that they're at my intention is that [TS]

  people who buy the ads will be able to [TS]

  log into a portal and see the [TS]

  performance of the ads they bought i [TS]

  haven't actually built that yet i do [TS]

  have a ride just have one giant [TS]

  dashboard that I can see in my admin [TS]

  panel I can see how they're doing and [TS]

  the only tracking is a little privacy [TS]

  policy on track is three things clicks [TS]

  views and subscriptions if their podcast [TS]

  ads that's it for websites just click [TS]

  views and they can be targeted by [TS]

  podcast category so you can say show [TS]

  this to everybody or you can say show [TS]

  this to people who listen to shows that [TS]

  are in the itunes technology category i [TS]

  have targeting by top-level podcast [TS]

  category in the directory optionally and [TS]

  so that helps a little bit but that's it [TS]

  and so you know it's a very very simple [TS]

  system it's very low on data because AI [TS]

  find too much data in that situation [TS]

  kind of gross and be i don't believe is [TS]

  necessary for this so we'll find out we [TS]

  respond to this week by hover the best [TS]

  way to buy a managed domain names go to [TS]

  hover com and use promo code ATP 10 at [TS]

  checkout to save ten percent off your [TS]

  first purchase you know over a hundred [TS]

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  registered a new one is registered every [TS]

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  when you think of an idea need to find a [TS]

  great domain name before someone else [TS]

  snatches it up and hover makes it [TS]

  incredibly easy to quickly register your [TS]

  own dot-com domain instead of making you [TS]

  opt-out of page after page of add-ons [TS]

  that you don't want or need cover only [TS]

  offers domains and email the two core [TS]

  services you can quickly secure domain [TS]

  and then get back to working on your [TS]

  great idea [TS]

  hover is also known for their no wait no [TS]

  hold no transfer phone service this is [TS]

  kind of amazing when you call them up a [TS]

  real live human being [TS]

  takes the phone there's no holds there's [TS]

  no weights and the person who you who [TS]

  picked up the phone can help you [TS]

  there's no transfers there's no phone [TS]

  tree to go through a real-life human [TS]

  being picked up the phone if you call [TS]

  them for help [TS]

  plus if you don't want to call they also [TS]

  have great online stuff email live chat [TS]

  support as well so you can find a great [TS]

  dot-com name for your idea and hover go [TS]

  to hover com and use promo code ATP 10 [TS]

  at checkout that [TS]

  ATP 10 at checkout to save ten percent [TS]

  off your first purchase [TS]

  thank you very much to hover for [TS]

  sponsoring our show ah so I feel like we [TS]

  should spend a few minutes talking about [TS]

  how much accessible uber is because will [TS]

  full what a disaster that coming what a [TS]

  freaking disaster and they take this [TS]

  latest horrible thing they did it's like [TS]

  it's just the latest in a string of [TS]

  horrible things they have done over the [TS]

  relatively short time they've been in [TS]

  existence like Eric horrible company run [TS]

  by horrible people [TS]

  yes so if you're not aware a woman who [TS]

  goes by susan j Fowler has written [TS]

  reflecting on one very very strange year [TS]

  to over it is not a terribly long post [TS]

  but it's long enough you're gonna want [TS]

  to leave yourself a few minutes to read [TS]

  it and you absolutely should read it and [TS]

  it is worth reading in its entirety [TS]

  don't skip around it's worth it because [TS]

  it is the laboratory casting how [TS]

  unbelievable it was the behavior of of [TS]

  Susan's like superiors and in some cases [TS]

  peers and the HR department / suffice to [TS]

  say i'm trying i don't know if i should [TS]

  really pull the summarizer in chief on [TS]

  this one because there's so much to this [TS]

  post but the the short version and again [TS]

  please read it please please read it but [TS]

  the short version is she was sexually [TS]

  harassed in various ways and in various [TS]

  magnitude pretty much from the moment [TS]

  she got there until the moment she left [TS]

  and and to me the most despicable thing [TS]

  that I found about this whole story was [TS]

  that she was told when she bubbled up [TS]

  these complaints to HR at uber that she [TS]

  was the only one complaining about this [TS]

  one particular individual yeah that was [TS]

  it was a first-time offense right thing [TS]

  I'm sorry that that's that's an [TS]

  important distinction that's absolutely [TS]

  correct as a first-time offense they [TS]

  will call this person Bob Bob is never [TS]

  done this before it's Bob's first time [TS]

  being a complete turd its first time [TS]

  yeah I'm sure he didn't mean it don't [TS]

  worry about it which is such a terrible [TS]

  way to approach this kind of a situation [TS]

  like I I don't understand why is the [TS]

  first offense even considered free like [TS]

  even if it was [TS]

  true like which it wasn't but like what [TS]

  why is that even ok response even was [TS]

  true [TS]

  yeah i mean in ATP tips during the chat [TS]

  is phrasing it well in this is all caps [TS]

  but my voice is shot so i'm not gonna [TS]

  scream is this first grade [TS]

  why the eff is sexual harassment a [TS]

  strike base system like yeah like why is [TS]

  this the way this little unit three [TS]

  strikes on that like know immediately [TS]

  fired maybe arrested like oh god I yeah [TS]

  I completely great so anyway so that [TS]

  shit Susan ends up talking to some of [TS]

  your peers and her peers are like oh [TS]

  that's weird i was talking to HR about [TS]

  Bob and they told me that it was a [TS]

  first-time offense and we are not the [TS]

  same person we are not reporting the [TS]

  same incident looks to us like hrs full [TS]

  of crap and so you know there's there's [TS]

  always a chance that this is all [TS]

  fabricated but man i don't believe that [TS]

  for a second like this is not one of [TS]

  those ragequit kind of posts where oh [TS]

  you know I died I didn't I didn't fit in [TS]

  well and i'm just going to make up stuff [TS]

  about no that's not how this reason at [TS]

  all and and this reads like a [TS]

  intelligent mature person just stating [TS]

  the facts of what they went through and [TS]

  God is a terrible and there was another [TS]

  report that came out I don't have a link [TS]

  handy but we'll find it for the show [TS]

  notes about how and I'm butchering the [TS]

  details but it's something like if you [TS]

  don't make men use their real names or [TS]

  anything like that about 5% of them [TS]

  think that they have any room to grow [TS]

  with regard to like relations to women [TS]

  or other minority groups and guess what [TS]

  like all of us are problem i like to [TS]

  think of myself as relatively woke in [TS]

  this department and I'm a damn problem [TS]

  like i don't get this right all the time [TS]

  and oh god the the utter overwhelming [TS]

  self-confidence that that these over [TS]

  employees have shown not the women that [TS]

  the men in an HR is just preposterous [TS]

  like oh my god I just I can't believe [TS]

  that this is a thing and that is [TS]

  continue going on now since this blog [TS]

  post travis kalanick alec is that his [TS]

  name so the CEO whoever he is has to his [TS]

  credit I guess [TS]

  taking a pretty strong stance on this in [TS]

  that he's taking it as true he's taking [TS]

  it as evidence that there's a real [TS]

  problem but I don't know man it's pretty [TS]

  like everyone is known that Hoover's [TS]

  really freaking slimy and a lot of [TS]

  freakin ways and now is when you're [TS]

  finally jumping on board and being like [TS]

  oh you know maybe we have something to [TS]

  change [TS]

  it's just this whole situation is just [TS]

  so freakin gross [TS]

  yeah i mean that's like the CEOs in [TS]

  these situations always act so surprised [TS]

  i had no idea this was going on there [TS]

  okay like that's either complete BS or [TS]

  you were really doing a bad job of [TS]

  looking at your own company for very [TS]

  different things that should be really [TS]

  common sense like something something is [TS]

  wrong seriously wrong here like it's [TS]

  it's not like the evil HR department is [TS]

  the cause of this know like the HR [TS]

  department is in service to the company [TS]

  the HR department it like it's not [TS]

  anybody's friend it's not like a third [TS]

  party you know judge system HR their [TS]

  main role is to prevent the company from [TS]

  getting sued and to mitigate risks that [TS]

  might cause that this HR department [TS]

  isn't even doing that job well that's [TS]

  true [TS]

  like so many parts of this company this [TS]

  edge our department is terrible at it [TS]

  even at its ostensible job not even that [TS]

  it's like theoretical job and every [TS]

  world right but like the the point like [TS]

  the HR department job is to protect the [TS]

  company from its employees that is [TS]

  literally their job [TS]

  yeah if the HR department is is being [TS]

  directed or being incentivized to do [TS]

  horrible things by the people who run [TS]

  the company they're going to do horrible [TS]

  things and it should come as no surprise [TS]

  that i'm i'm pretty sure it's BS that [TS]

  did come as a surprise i'm pretty sure [TS]

  that this was no surprise it should come [TS]

  as no surprise to the CEO of a company [TS]

  that horrible stuff goes on in HR when [TS]

  he himself seems to be a pretty horrible [TS]

  person from the little bit that I know [TS]

  and the company does lots of horrible [TS]

  things and has a complete culture of [TS]

  being horrible and toxic and [TS]

  disrespectful of everyone including [TS]

  especially women [TS]

  this is not the first time they've had [TS]

  problems with problems with women in [TS]

  particular like [TS]

  it's not the first one not by a long [TS]

  shot and so this his whole thing about [TS]

  i'm shocked i'm gonna you know [TS]

  investigators immediately that's BS [TS]

  that's complete BS like yeah so I don't [TS]

  believe that for a second [TS]

  none of this should be forgiven and none [TS]

  of it should be isolated to a couple bad [TS]

  apples in the HR department because it's [TS]

  not that it's it's a deep-rooted [TS]

  cultural problem systemic failure it is [TS]

  absolutely a systemic failure and it [TS]

  comes right from the top [TS]

  it comes right from the top but that's [TS]

  why this is such a great example like [TS]

  very very often people who are not [TS]

  steeped in these issues don't spend all [TS]

  the time you know we're reading about [TS]

  them what ever hear the phrase [TS]

  institutional underscore institutional [TS]

  sexism institutional bias or whatever [TS]

  and it seems like a buzz or anything [TS]

  that doesn't make any sense but a [TS]

  reasonable working definition is based [TS]

  on examples like this where you find [TS]

  yourself in a situation where there but [TS]

  there is some kind of institution or [TS]

  authority that structure could be the [TS]

  government but it could also be the [TS]

  company that you work for which even [TS]

  though it is not the government it is it [TS]

  is it a you know at an organizational [TS]

  structure with authority over your life [TS]

  that you work within for as long as you [TS]

  decide you want to work there and in [TS]

  this case as in so many other cases in [TS]

  many other companies you know forever [TS]

  and ever [TS]

  the institution has certain attitudes [TS]

  towards whatever you might be whether be [TS]

  minorities are older people or women or [TS]

  whatever and those those policies and [TS]

  and biases and views come through in the [TS]

  rules that govern everybody else so you [TS]

  have an HR department that it was [TS]

  functioning well in its role as Marco [TS]

  described it to protect the company from [TS]

  its people you know part of this it did [TS]

  at like HR like any other part of the [TS]

  company's supposed to make the company [TS]

  more successful so if there is a [TS]

  problematic employee HR has to deal with [TS]

  that that employees doing things that [TS]

  could get the company sued it is in the [TS]

  company and hrs best interest to solve [TS]

  that problem and the most reasonable way [TS]

  to solve it is to try to make the [TS]

  company a place where people want to [TS]

  work and that usually means taking the [TS]

  toxic person and [TS]

  you know disciplining them are getting [TS]

  rid of them right [TS]

  it becomes much more difficult when that [TS]

  person is high up in the organization or [TS]

  as they say in this thing is a high [TS]

  performer [TS]

  yeah and that person is valuable to the [TS]

  company right right right but but you [TS]

  know there is that the larger value to [TS]

  the company but anyway these [TS]

  institutions have control over many of [TS]

  these employees lives for as long as [TS]

  they work at the company and yes it is [TS]

  always optional it just get another job [TS]

  someplace else but the thing about [TS]

  institutional sexism or any other sort [TS]

  of institutional biases it's not always [TS]

  clear and it very often is not the case [TS]

  and it's very difficult to tell that if [TS]

  i were to leave this tech job and go to [TS]

  a different tech job will that company [TS]

  have better attitudes towards you know [TS]

  what whatever my thing is but it's [TS]

  minorities or women or maybe maybe not [TS]

  like that that's a selling point of a [TS]

  company but if you're in this control is [TS]

  a it's not that easy to change jobs and [TS]

  be if you're within this control [TS]

  structure these these policies and [TS]

  attitudes and the things that will [TS]

  happen to you uh seem like an injustice [TS]

  because they are injustice because you [TS]

  view the the authority of the company as [TS]

  the arbiter of that you know the rules [TS]

  of play within the company it's not as [TS]

  if people are getting murdered right so [TS]

  it's not it's not the most part usually [TS]

  not a criminal type of thing it is here [TS]

  are the rules as set out and if there [TS]

  are any violation of the rules or [TS]

  violation of what I think should be the [TS]

  norms there is an authority that I [TS]

  appeal to whether it be my manager my [TS]

  manager's manager at the HR department [TS]

  whatever it may be [TS]

  for example he found in an error in your [TS]

  payroll like you know you got paid the [TS]

  wrong amount you go to the payroll [TS]

  department and in a functioning company [TS]

  the payroll department job is to make [TS]

  sure that everybody gets paid the amount [TS]

  they're supposed to be paid and if [TS]

  there's an error and you brought to the [TS]

  payroll department if the institution is [TS]

  functioning correctly they would correct [TS]

  the error or tell you that is not an [TS]

  error because they did some weird thing [TS]

  with taxes that they would then explain [TS]

  to you [TS]

  that's the function of the payroll [TS]

  department think anybody would argue [TS]

  with like a you know like it would seem [TS]

  like an injustice if you found your [TS]

  missing hundred bucks on your paycheck [TS]

  and you brought to the payroll [TS]

  department of the institution that you [TS]

  are in and they didn't correct that [TS]

  error tried to tell you that you did [TS]

  your math wrong or said well it's only [TS]

  its first time we made this mistake [TS]

  don't worry about it like that would [TS]

  feel like an injustice even though you [TS]

  know it it's just a payroll department [TS]

  the company work and if you don't like [TS]

  it get another job right that's the [TS]

  whole attitude you here but it is an [TS]

  injustice because that's what the fuck [TS]

  that thing is positive so if the company [TS]

  says all we were all inclusive employer [TS]

  and we love everybody and you know we [TS]

  certainly don't condone sexual [TS]

  harassment which any company will take [TS]

  it will say if you ask them hey company [TS]

  X you can on sexual harassment they're [TS]

  all say they don't write so it's their [TS]

  stated policy not to so this happens to [TS]

  you in a company in any company that [TS]

  stage is going to say that and you take [TS]

  this thing to the authority of the [TS]

  institution that you are working within [TS]

  and you say hey HR department were [TS]

  supposed to be a company in which people [TS]

  don't get sexually harassed it's my [TS]

  first day of my job and my boss was [TS]

  propositioning me for sex [TS]

  here you go it's on a silver platter now [TS]

  HR do do your job as stated you know [TS]

  like it's and again it's not as if like [TS]

  I'm expecting a charter to protect me [TS]

  they should be protecting the company by [TS]

  having someone like this in it because [TS]

  it's against their state of policy and [TS]

  it's bad for business period the only [TS]

  reason you wouldn't do that if is it [TS]

  there is institutional bias and sexism [TS]

  from the highest levels to say actually [TS]

  the strategy want to take here is to [TS]

  sweep that under the carpet to shuffle [TS]

  the victim off someplace else to put the [TS]

  blame on them to to give them an option [TS]

  like well you can either stay in this [TS]

  manner but he's gonna give you a bad [TS]

  performance review because we're going [TS]

  to totally tell him that you reported [TS]

  him and if he does give you a bad [TS]

  performance review [TS]

  you really only have yourself to blame [TS]

  for report like I'm not making this up [TS]

  reading the thing this is what's [TS]

  happening in the company you really only [TS]

  have yourself to blame [TS]

  and because we did give you the option [TS]

  to transfer someplace else and the [TS]

  employers like but but this is the [TS]

  department i want to be in this is where [TS]

  my skills that lies in my transfer have [TS]

  to learn your thing like well we gave [TS]

  you a choice or you just quit your job [TS]

  like they don't mention that but it's [TS]

  always an option right you always just [TS]

  quit your job but she had skills that [TS]

  were a perfect fit for the job that she [TS]

  was in she enjoyed doing it technically [TS]

  she liked some of the people she was [TS]

  working with there's just one niggling [TS]

  problem right hunt being sexually [TS]

  harassed at work so she ended up [TS]

  transferring to a different apartment [TS]

  which is painful and did what like it's [TS]

  just it's such a terrible story of the [TS]

  inno and then she had problems there as [TS]

  well and other issues and she would [TS]

  bring them to HR and they would do the [TS]

  same thing and I [TS]

  about all the other people this is [TS]

  institutional sexism where the [TS]

  institution is working against her she [TS]

  has a reasonable expectation according [TS]

  to state policies of the company that [TS]

  the people whose job it is to be the the [TS]

  the referees for this area just like the [TS]

  payroll department the referee for how [TS]

  much you get paid are failing to act and [TS]

  that is like the definition of injustice [TS]

  and when it's an institution its [TS]

  definition of institutional sexism and [TS]

  you can expand that out any institution [TS]

  you want whether it be your family unit [TS]

  at the smallest institution where maybe [TS]

  everyone in your family takes all the [TS]

  wife should stay at home with their kids [TS]

  all way up to the government with [TS]

  policies that are you know biased in in [TS]

  one direction other against people who [TS]

  are minorities or people who are women [TS]

  which is the opposite of a minority and [TS]

  so that that's what's maddening to like [TS]

  this the reason you know the whole [TS]

  social justice movement and the [TS]

  pejorative sjw that's used the reason [TS]

  they have the word justice in them is [TS]

  because all of them derived from a [TS]

  recognition that every large grouping [TS]

  organizational structure has you know [TS]

  has your behavior as an overall organism [TS]

  that is it emerges from the attitudes of [TS]

  the people running it and despite what [TS]

  people may say it's pretty easy to find [TS]

  out if you're in a situation where the [TS]

  institution is working against you and [TS]

  where the supposed places you go to [TS]

  resolve whatever issues you have whether [TS]

  it's a discrepancy in your paycheck or [TS]

  someone violating what you think is an [TS]

  HR policy if those institutions fail to [TS]

  act or actively work against you that [TS]

  feels like and is an injustice and [TS]

  that's what people are fighting against [TS]

  you know and i think that the payroll [TS]

  analogy is the one that probably works [TS]

  because most people think that's a [TS]

  no-brainer like they understand the role [TS]

  the payroll department and if they don't [TS]

  get paid the money they were promised [TS]

  that is an injustice but you you apply [TS]

  the exact same thing to other things [TS]

  like well he's a really nice guy he's [TS]

  really important in the company and [TS]

  can't just change to a different place [TS]

  because like like it just boggles my [TS]

  mind that any modern company like these [TS]

  things would ever happen is almost sound [TS]

  fantastical but then you'll hear the [TS]

  same story [TS]

  from tons like to talk to women that you [TS]

  know who worked in large companies for [TS]

  any part of their career you'll hear the [TS]

  same stories everywhere and that's [TS]

  another clue to you that this is an [TS]

  institutional thing it's not just uber [TS]

  that whoever is a bad company over is [TS]

  the one bad apple everybody else is fine [TS]

  it is everywhere it is systemic is [TS]

  societal it is cultural it is [TS]

  institutional that's that's the [TS]

  definition and that's why the stories [TS]

  like this is depressing because no [TS]

  matter what uber does a is probably not [TS]

  going to change uber because i haven't [TS]

  changed by now they're probably never [TS]

  will and B it's not going to solve the [TS]

  problem and all the other places the [TS]

  only way you can fix it systemically is [TS]

  with systemic solutions and cultural [TS]

  change and all the stuff that takes [TS]

  really long time and it's very difficult [TS]

  to do and that's why stories like this [TS]

  are very depressing and since since this [TS]

  original blog post was written and in [TS]

  just the last few hours we record [TS]

  somebody's tweeted will put a link to it [TS]

  that a hundred and eighteen people have [TS]

  resigned or given their notice since [TS]

  yesterday which i guess is tuesday it [TS]

  was within the last couple days is [TS]

  really what it amounts to [TS]

  and that was only in San Francisco this [TS]

  is that over in San Francisco like [TS]

  that's a lot of people hundred twenty [TS]

  people and and you know III power to you [TS]

  man if you are willing to to stand up [TS]

  for this in and say I cannot be a part [TS]

  of this anymore like here again like I [TS]

  like to think of myself as reasonably [TS]

  woke but if I mean I don't know if I [TS]

  would have the the gumption to just walk [TS]

  away from my job that's putting food on [TS]

  my table like that's awesome and I men [TS]

  or women you know it doesn't matter [TS]

  whoever whoever these hundred eighteen [TS]

  people are good for you that that's [TS]

  tremendous that you put your money where [TS]

  your mouth is and and yeah I can't [TS]

  emphasize enough like I see it from time [TS]

  to time at my work and I and i'm not [TS]

  even necessarily like I don't have my [TS]

  antenna up if you will to like search [TS]

  for it i just see it from time to time [TS]

  and I try to do my best to correct it [TS]

  when it happens but this stuff happens [TS]

  everywhere it's not unique to San [TS]

  Francisco it's not unique to offer [TS]

  although over seems to be excelling in [TS]

  this department [TS]

  it's everywhere and and it's up to [TS]

  everyone but particularly those of us [TS]

  who are not up [TS]

  dressed like the three of us to give [TS]

  credence to the stories of those who are [TS]

  to pay attention to the stories of those [TS]

  who are and to try to fix or speak for [TS]

  or really even better give the [TS]

  microphone to which is comical since i'm [TS]

  talking into a microphone now and not [TS]

  doing this but anyway give the [TS]

  microphone to someone who is depressed [TS]

  and and who didn't allow them to speak [TS]

  for themselves [TS]

  the other thing i like about this post [TS]

  is I think it does a good job of [TS]

  explaining why someone might stay in a [TS]

  job like this happens because it's [TS]

  always the reactions like well just quit [TS]

  if you don't like it just quit right [TS]

  there are mitigating factors one of [TS]

  which maybe you really like the work [TS]

  you're doing and it's technically [TS]

  interesting and you are you know growing [TS]

  your skills and maybe even like the [TS]

  people you work with right you know it's [TS]

  very possible to be in a company whose [TS]

  institutions are failing you but [TS]

  nevertheless you you enjoy your peers [TS]

  and employees maybe you enjoy your [TS]

  direct manager but you know that you [TS]

  don't takes one bad person and then 11 [TS]

  non-functioning institution to fail to [TS]

  you know to fail to do its job to [TS]

  protect the company from toxic employees [TS]

  like this to you know like your [TS]

  retention is part of the job of HR 100 [TS]

  people quit because something like this [TS]

  that you are not doing its job right but [TS]

  it's like why does she stay in this job [TS]

  i think this this article has a good [TS]

  description of why someone but why it's [TS]

  not just like oh well someone you know [TS]

  said something you know Lou to me and [TS]

  therefore i got to quit the next day and [TS]

  if you don't quit the next day it's your [TS]

  own fault right [TS]

  that's a ridiculous thing like people [TS]

  are more complicated than just did [TS]

  they're not you know it's not just one [TS]

  thing right and so that's why this thing [TS]

  is like reflecting on a very strange [TS]

  year like it is very even-handed and I [TS]

  think when you read it you can see the [TS]

  excitement of working for a company will [TS]

  help with a lot of VC money doing [TS]

  interesting technical stuff with people [TS]

  that you enjoy and expanding your skills [TS]

  and generally having a career [TS]

  the thing that most people get to have [TS]

  like and that is that is the tension do [TS]

  you want to have a career or your entire [TS]

  career going to be sending reports HR [TS]

  every time someone does something that [TS]

  you just like I should have to choose [TS]

  between those two things like can't I [TS]

  have a career and not be sexually [TS]

  arrested that is [TS]

  not even an option on the table I'm and [TS]

  so it makes people have these ridiculous [TS]

  choices like well it's not really that [TS]

  bad is it and I guess I'll just tolerate [TS]

  it and I just keep reporting it to HR [TS]

  may be able to do something eventually [TS]

  and it's just it's not a healthy [TS]

  situation but like the expectation that [TS]

  everything is your fault if you don't [TS]

  immediately storm out and quit the first [TS]

  time someone does something you don't [TS]

  like [TS]

  otherwise like it as the HR department [TS]

  well it's really your own fault that [TS]

  point he's going to give you negative [TS]

  performance review but you can't really [TS]

  blame the guy right and I mean like that [TS]

  might have been over a lot of people's [TS]

  lines but it really depends on what [TS]

  state you are in your career and how [TS]

  much you know the world and you know [TS]

  what capacity you have to leave your job [TS]

  at that moment and how excited you are [TS]

  to be able to work in this thing is like [TS]

  well it's just that one bad person and [TS]

  working doing different department i [TS]

  want to deal with them but there's [TS]

  always people work you don't have to [TS]

  deal with and if you lived your entire [TS]

  life as a woman in virtually any culture [TS]

  in the entire history of the universe [TS]

  you are sadly very used to dealing with [TS]

  people crapping on you and treating you [TS]

  badly and so have probably internalize [TS]

  some notion that this is a thing that [TS]

  you have to tolerate to get ahead in the [TS]

  world and and sadly you're also probably [TS]

  kind of write about it [TS]

  I'm so that's that's like I think we'll [TS]

  give people reading this thing will give [TS]

  people a better idea of what of what it [TS]

  might be like to be in the situation and [TS]

  why you might not do all the things that [TS]

  I'm assuming people down in the comments [TS]

  are screaming that this person was [TS]

  supposed to do just you know run out [TS]

  with your hair on fire at the first sign [TS]

  of anything going wrong which honestly [TS]

  might have actually been the better [TS]

  choice indicated a goober butt is not a [TS]

  realistic thing to demand of people [TS]

  otherwise they somehow lose their right [TS]

  to justice and somehow lose their lose [TS]

  their expectation of being in a [TS]

  functioning institution that doesn't [TS]

  hate them [TS]

  yeah it's just ridiculous it in and [TS]

  again I know I said it before but truly [TS]

  it is worth your time to read this [TS]

  entire post it is extremely well [TS]

  thought-out and extremely mature and it [TS]

  just spells out the facts the way Susan [TS]

  saw them and [TS]

  and I believe every word of it and I [TS]

  mean even if even hypothetically if this [TS]

  was you know laced with BS which again I [TS]

  i truly do not believe this this to me [TS]

  sounds like something that absolutely [TS]

  could have happened and maybe and maybe [TS]

  if it if it didn't happen to me now to [TS]

  bend over but this this is stuff that [TS]

  happens every day and I don't see it and [TS]

  i wanna i wanna I'm trying to in part by [TS]

  talking to the three of you and anyone [TS]

  else that's listening or two of you got [TS]

  i can count it's late we but it i'm [TS]

  trying to to open my eyes wider to these [TS]

  sorts of things and be more aware of [TS]

  them and and try to figure out how I can [TS]

  react appropriately in these situations [TS]

  but golly this is this is just bananas [TS]

  and in i am there's also an opportunity [TS]

  for people at their jobs to a minute and [TS]

  i know it's my job that has sparked this [TS]

  discussion and I think you know whatever [TS]

  then you have to have this discussion if [TS]

  you work for a company like people might [TS]

  be talking about the story especially if [TS]

  you're in the tech industry it's time to [TS]

  ask around pay has any good HR [TS]

  department should be doing this hey does [TS]

  anyone in our company feel like they [TS]

  can't go to HR or has gone to HR and has [TS]

  felt like HR has failed them in some way [TS]

  things like this happen all the time I [TS]

  mean that you know people are people and [TS]

  there's always communication gaps but [TS]

  it's like a teachable moment type thing [TS]

  where would a good company will do with [TS]

  a good HR department is use this to say [TS]

  if this is happening here we don't want [TS]

  it to and let us know and employee [TS]

  should talk amongst themselves like [TS]

  sometimes people don't talk about you [TS]

  know like they'll report some of the HR [TS]

  but maybe you don't tell like your peers [TS]

  that you did that you know because you [TS]

  don't want to because you fear [TS]

  retribution which is itself a very bad [TS]

  sign right off the bat but sometimes it [TS]

  takes something like this like it's the [TS]

  same reason they didn't know the the [TS]

  woman's company didn't get together [TS]

  immediately they had to eventually [TS]

  figure out late but I reported that same [TS]

  guy and they told me it was the first [TS]

  time like these conversations need to [TS]

  happen and health company should happen [TS]

  and as this story went around people at [TS]

  you know at my job [TS]

  people started talking about it and you [TS]

  know talking about their experiences [TS]

  with HR [TS]

  at our company and and and how it [TS]

  compares to this story and like if you [TS]

  don't hear about these stories and you [TS]

  don't think it's happening your company [TS]

  maybe it's totally not but maybe it is [TS]

  you're just not hearing about it because [TS]

  it hasn't happened to you and the people [TS]

  has happened to you haven't felt like [TS]

  they could tell you for you know and [TS]

  like the worst it is probably the more [TS]

  hesitant people will be to share these [TS]

  stories because it really is bad and you [TS]

  really are punished for reporting it and [TS]

  this and you know the HR justifies [TS]

  retaliation against you based on and [TS]

  everything you're not going to tell your [TS]

  coworkers that it's happening you're [TS]

  going to keep your mouth shut and you're [TS]

  not going to report another one because [TS]

  you need this job like that's the case [TS]

  wherever and clams up where is if there [TS]

  really is an expectation and a [TS]

  functioning HR department and someone [TS]

  has a bad interaction and they they [TS]

  should feel free to tell everyone that [TS]

  all their co-workers and their boss [TS]

  about it because they have an [TS]

  expectation like this is not functioning [TS]

  correctly and you know i was told [TS]

  something that does not seem to comport [TS]

  with the suppose that policies of this [TS]

  company and that's the only way these [TS]

  things get worked out because if people [TS]

  are just quiet and go about their [TS]

  business and try not to rock the boat [TS]

  like that's not a good culture for [TS]

  anything but you know it period in a [TS]

  company was certainly a good culture for [TS]

  making sure you have making sure you [TS]

  have a company that is that is able to [TS]

  retain employees good employees because [TS]

  this person seems like a good employee [TS]

  mean she she wrote a Riley book on the [TS]

  topic and speak at conferences it's not [TS]

  like she's just this random cog in the [TS]

  machine right I'll just throw her away [TS]

  we don't need to have that's right more [TS]

  important to protect the high the high [TS]

  performing sexual harasser it's [TS]

  ridiculous but anyway a good HR [TS]

  department will try to make a company [TS]

  that is attractive to employees people [TS]

  want to work there and once they do work [TS]

  there they want to stay there that is [TS]

  that you know it again it is not a role [TS]

  that is in service of the employee but [TS]

  it's a virtuous cycle if the HR [TS]

  department realizes that by making it a [TS]

  better company to work at they will be [TS]

  protecting the company and they will be [TS]

  making the company more successful even [TS]

  if their main goal is to maine loyalties [TS]

  to the company and not to the employee [TS]

  was it Thursday of last week the day [TS]

  after we recorded that we got a very [TS]

  weird announcement out of Apple was a [TS]

  Thursday or was it it was sometime after [TS]

  we recorded and not too long after he [TS]

  recorded 10 minutes after recording yeah [TS]

  right that's what it felt like for sure [TS]

  I I think Apple strolling us because [TS]

  clearly they care about are recording [TS]

  schedule [TS]

  wdc 2017 has been announced it is a week [TS]

  before I thought it would be [TS]

  it is the 5th to 9th of june i had [TS]

  guests and I was pretty confident it [TS]

  would be the following week i'm wrong [TS]

  I'd also guessed it would be in san [TS]

  francisco and that's not right either so [TS]

  it's going to san jose which apparently [TS]

  is the most boring big city and all of [TS]

  America from what I'm told [TS]

  so that's the thing people who say that [TS]

  have never been to any other cities in [TS]

  America that's true and I mean I've [TS]

  never been to san jose and I've heard [TS]

  it's nice but I don't really know [TS]

  anything about it but one way or another [TS]

  they have announced wdc they've [TS]

  announced dates this is way sooner than [TS]

  they've done it in many years usually [TS]

  it's like april or even may when they [TS]

  announced that that.oh in a couple of [TS]

  days you can buy tickets so get ready [TS]

  and this is convenient if you're [TS]

  somebody like us that's probably gonna [TS]

  go regardless of whether or not you have [TS]

  a ticket [TS]

  it's also can mean if you're someone [TS]

  that doesn't live in the United States [TS]

  and needs to work out you know the entry [TS]

  procedure and i'm just going to dance [TS]

  around this whole topic it's just it's [TS]

  nice to know wait advance and I think [TS]

  part of if not most of the reason that [TS]

  it was announced this far out is because [TS]

  it's not san francisco and that changes [TS]

  things and nobody really knows how it [TS]

  changes things although i bet you were [TS]

  going to talk about for a while huh [TS]

  but it certainly changes things and and [TS]

  i'm curious to see how this turns out [TS]

  because it certainly gave me pause for a [TS]

  minute because everything I've [TS]

  understood about san jose is that it is [TS]

  a really sleepy town after all the local [TS]

  businesses you know go to sleep if you [TS]

  will after business hours and a lot of [TS]

  the reason that I go to WTC each year is [TS]

  so i can hang out with you guys and all [TS]

  my other friends and and and mutual [TS]

  friends and and socialize and have fun [TS]

  and and build the in continue to build [TS]

  existing relationships and build new [TS]

  relationships [TS]

  and I don't know how conducive san jose [TS]

  is to that for all I know it could be [TS]

  great I mean I I really honestly don't [TS]

  know but but it's certainly different [TS]

  and you know what whatever how we gonna [TS]

  go to the house of prime rib if it's an [TS]

  hour away like that's not going to work [TS]

  what do you do I think this is terrible [TS]

  so I don't know John what do you think [TS]

  about all this [TS]

  well I don't like I don't like traveling [TS]

  and I don't like change and I don't like [TS]

  change to travel is it that I got used [TS]

  to the flight to San Francisco and the [TS]

  arrangements there and have was familiar [TS]

  with enough of the city to start to feel [TS]

  comfortable you know everything that he [TS]

  said we need to change things up like as [TS]

  as many people find out like the obvious [TS]

  reason they would change this because [TS]

  its marketing in for Apple because it's [TS]

  closer to their headquarters [TS]

  it's got to be cheaper than doing [TS]

  anything in san francisco in theory it [TS]

  was supposed to be cheaper for attendees [TS]

  and practice I don't know if that will [TS]

  be the case because obviously all the [TS]

  traditional WWDC attendees plus the [TS]

  people who go without a ticket for some [TS]

  fraction of them anyway are going to [TS]

  drive our prices but i did get a hotel [TS]

  reservations provisional hotel [TS]

  reservations for less money than I could [TS]

  have gotten them in San Francisco for [TS]

  the same week [TS]

  not much less but a little bit less and [TS]

  certainly a nice location so it's a [TS]

  thousand dollars less the same here but [TS]

  I i have not independently confirm this [TS]

  but I had people that i saw on Twitter [TS]

  saying that within a couple hours of [TS]

  this announcement all those prices went [TS]

  up to effectively equivalent to San [TS]

  Francisco prices until at last couple [TS]

  years it is ben and I'm sure we talked [TS]

  about this on the show but it has been [TS]

  for a middle-of-the-road hotel for the [TS]

  area and an admittedly it's not the [TS]

  greatest area for like sightseeing and [TS]

  there's a bunch of problems with the [TS]

  area in which WBC is to happen in San [TS]

  Francisco but the point of the matter is [TS]

  for a unremarkable hotel but not slummy [TS]

  it was like four hundred dollars a night [TS]

  i think i spend like 2500 or 3000 [TS]

  dollars for a week [TS]

  arable five nights in san francisco and [TS]

  somebody said to me at some point I wish [TS]

  I could remember who was but somebody [TS]

  pointed out last couple years in France [TS]

  Cisco you're basically buying an Apple [TS]

  watch every single night you were there [TS]

  and then throwing it away [TS]

  that's not expensive hotels but that was [TS]

  a huge on ya just everybody say yeah [TS]

  okay so that's that's barbaric that's [TS]

  just as San Francisco or at least that [TS]

  part of san francisco is not a nice [TS]

  enough city to justify that kind of [TS]

  price like it's just not i'm sorry and [TS]

  and so here it is for a fleeting moments [TS]

  and san jose's seemed like it would be a [TS]

  whole lot better but from what I [TS]

  understand all of the excess inventory [TS]

  that was a little low priced has been [TS]

  snapped up now that very well could be [TS]

  because Apple has also bought a bunch of [TS]

  hotel rooms for attendees which they've [TS]

  done in years past that is very very [TS]

  likely Apple almost certainly has [TS]

  blocked out discounted rooms for [TS]

  attendees so that basically if you plan [TS]

  to get to try to get a ticket [TS]

  don't book a non-refundable hotel room [TS]

  yet right exactly [TS]

  yeah the strategy been doing this [TS]

  strategy in San Francisco for a few [TS]

  years you always soon as you find out [TS]

  the dates you look refundable ticket and [TS]

  then what i would do is wait to see that [TS]

  if I do get a ticket which I have in [TS]

  years past [TS]

  look at the rates that apple offers for [TS]

  like hey we reserve blocker review some [TS]

  years the Apple reserved room rate is [TS]

  cheaper than the 1i provisionally booked [TS]

  sometimes it's actually more expensive [TS]

  so it really depends on how quick people [TS]

  are on the draw on how quickly the [TS]

  hotel's figure out what's going on but [TS]

  in this case but by the time you're [TS]

  listening to this if you haven't already [TS]

  booked something probably apples reserve [TS]

  block of room rate is going to be better [TS]

  than anything you get right now and [TS]

  there are it seems like there are more [TS]

  hotels at formerly reasonable prices [TS]

  closer to whatever the convention center [TS]

  is in San Jose because moscone has some [TS]

  super expensive hotels fairly close to [TS]

  it and some cheaper ones like 15 minute [TS]

  walk away and then it goes down from [TS]

  there as soon as a one right around [TS]

  within like the same block as a couple [TS]

  of big hotels which don't seem as nice [TS]

  and we're going for you know a hundred [TS]

  and something at night if you were [TS]

  really quick on the draw of course now [TS]

  they're all 2 for 500 but you know what [TS]

  your mind is like my got mine for like [TS]

  189 or something I mean I haven't paid a [TS]

  rate that low in san francisco in a few [TS]

  years [TS]

  yeah many times in anything with the one [TS]

  in front of it in [TS]

  years yeah exactly true that goodness so [TS]

  true [TS]

  CSO either on the one side so I i guess [TS]

  at first that seems like an improvement [TS]

  because it seems like it's more [TS]

  accessible financially until you have to [TS]

  fly there because there seemed to be [TS]

  considerably fewer options to get into [TS]

  san jose then there are san francisco [TS]

  which makes sense San Francisco so much [TS]

  bigger Airport from everything I've [TS]

  gathered i'm more than a little bitter [TS]

  that no matter where i fly out of I'm [TS]

  going to have to change planes in the [TS]

  past I've driven two hours north bound [TS]

  to dulles everyone's favorite airport [TS]

  and got a direct flight on virgin [TS]

  america which is non sarcastically my [TS]

  favorite airline in the states and i [TS]

  typically underscore and I have flown on [TS]

  the same flights out and back in and [TS]

  it's been wonderful and now i'm going to [TS]

  have to change planes like an animal [TS]

  which I'm perfectly capable of doing but [TS]

  I don't care for doing and then that's a [TS]

  bummer [TS]

  alternatively we could fly to san [TS]

  francisco and take like an hour-long [TS]

  drive or caltrain or something along [TS]

  those lines which is a bummer so getting [TS]

  there is a little bit tougher and [TS]

  probably more expensive which stinks but [TS]

  in the grand scheme of things I think [TS]

  this has a lot of potential upside get [TS]

  it does make a lot of things different [TS]

  and at first glance potentially worse [TS]

  but I think it could make a lot of [TS]

  things better and also announced today [TS]

  we're not going to talk about talk about [TS]

  very much the apple campus to has been [TS]

  officially named a park and it will [TS]

  start to receive employees that are that [TS]

  will be moving in in April and WT season [TS]

  june so it is certainly possible that [TS]

  there will be one or more wdc events at [TS]

  Apple park which would be kinda neat i [TS]

  guess we'll see what happens [TS]

  there's been a lot of like theorizing [TS]

  and in scheming about where things like [TS]

  the beer bash will happen and where will [TS]

  the keynote happen and and we know the [TS]

  name of the conference center event so [TS]

  or whatever it is that that WBC is [TS]

  happening already forgotten what it is [TS]

  it doesn't really matter but there's a [TS]

  lot of questions about this and [TS]

  additionally somewhere on the website or [TS]

  maybe was in the announcement they they [TS]

  made passing reference to how Apple's [TS]

  working with San Jose to kind of have [TS]

  stuff to do after hours [TS]

  what does that mean does that mean that [TS]

  they work with what people like layers [TS]

  and all content to get something going [TS]

  on but that's not really after hours [TS]

  that's during the show so is it is it [TS]

  that they're working with the relay [TS]

  folks to get something going probably [TS]

  not but you never know you know there's [TS]

  a million questions here very few [TS]

  answers however at least we know when it [TS]

  is in the least we know where it is and [TS]

  we know that before what feels like 10 [TS]

  seconds in advance which is good so I'm [TS]

  tentatively optimistic but we'll see how [TS]

  we'll see how it works out I'm gonna [TS]

  miss the convention center like I don't [TS]

  even know what I want is like but as the [TS]

  Mosconi was cool looking right yeah I [TS]

  like that I like that space [TS]

  I mean obviously the Rings themselves or [TS]

  like you know boring partitions they [TS]

  move around and stuff but i think apple [TS]

  always did a good job of making it feel [TS]

  so the familiarity will be will be over [TS]

  weird the potential upside of San Jose [TS]

  is that nerds will be able to more [TS]

  thoroughly dominated the place because [TS]

  in San Francisco yeah there's a lot of [TS]

  nerds and when you're around Moscow [TS]

  Niecy a lot of little black WTC jackets [TS]

  but service was a big busy city full of [TS]

  people going about their business and as [TS]

  you move outward nerds don't dominate [TS]

  the city like that you know people who [TS]

  live in the city and work there are many [TS]

  other nerds that people going to work at [TS]

  Twitter and stuff right but it's a [TS]

  different set of nerds in San Jose [TS]

  because the population is lower and you [TS]

  know it's just a less of a big city than [TS]

  san francisco i would imagine that we [TS]

  will dominate more i'm worried a little [TS]

  bit about facilities as people point out [TS]

  not so much interested in bars but even [TS]

  just a simple like a where do you want [TS]

  to go for dinner tonight if there's any [TS]

  remotely good restaurants they may be [TS]

  overwhelmed by the additional volume of [TS]

  people but then again it is a convention [TS]

  center so maybe they used to it i don't [TS]

  know it's hard it's hard to gauge that [TS]

  but again [TS]

  san Francisco has a much larger capacity [TS]

  to absorb people's activities just [TS]

  because they're used to hear it's a big [TS]

  city there's many more options more [TS]

  places to go places that are more used [TS]

  to large volumes of people [TS]

  on an ongoing basis whereas this surge [TS]

  for dvc could be a large as far as San [TS]

  Jose since earn or could not be because [TS]

  I think maybe their convention center [TS]

  regularly houses conventions that are [TS]

  seven times size of WTC in which case [TS]

  you don't have a big deal and also maybe [TS]

  people who previously went to San [TS]

  Francisco for WC without a ticket to [TS]

  just you know enjoy the company will [TS]

  think twice of it either because there's [TS]

  not a direct flight or because they [TS]

  think they won't be stuff to do you know [TS]

  me as much stuff to do or whatever I [TS]

  think the idea of people going into san [TS]

  francisco from San Jose is crazy because [TS]

  that's a ridiculous trip and it's long [TS]

  distance even without traffic you don't [TS]

  want to make that trip back when you're [TS]

  you know me lens at 2am or whatever so I [TS]

  mean all certainly I would never do that [TS]

  but i think most people wouldn't do that [TS]

  you can you imagine getting back in like [TS]

  an uber to go ride for an hour at two in [TS]

  the morning to go back to the parc 55 no [TS]

  hard pass no thank you [TS]

  yeah and maybe the weather will be nicer [TS]

  might be freezing cold [TS]

  my understanding is that factors that it [TS]

  will be considerably warmer it seems the [TS]

  San Jose is actually in California right [TS]

  now okay [TS]

  and III from for me because I had flying [TS]

  a traveling i'm going to take a direct [TS]

  flight to SFO I'm i can't remember I [TS]

  can't do the change like 16 hour flight [TS]

  I can't do 24 hour flights with an hour [TS]

  in between or whatever the hell would be [TS]

  if I went through Texas or whatever my [TS]

  options are [TS]

  I'm curious how you get down to there [TS]

  from there and how does that work [TS]

  I'll get someone to drive me totally [TS]

  fine you have debated doing the same [TS]

  thing but especially inbound wear that [TS]

  the schedules a little less intense but [TS]

  I and Ivan book plane travel yet there [TS]

  but I i think what I'll likely do is [TS]

  just fly into san jose and in deal with [TS]

  the fact that i have to put on my big [TS]

  boy pants and change planes at some [TS]

  point we'll say our hearing from you [TS]

  because your connection got cancelled or [TS]

  a mist how excited you are to miss [TS]

  registration no true it i agree that [TS]

  that's why I like sure i am being a [TS]

  little bit of a baby singing [TS]

  energy plants but truly like that's why [TS]

  i drive two hours because driving two [TS]

  hours to a larger airport is something i [TS]

  can control when i get stranded in [TS]

  dallas or or Charlotte or Chicago or [TS]

  something like that [TS]

  I'm screwed like there's nothing I can [TS]

  do about that at that point so I'm with [TS]

  you John I completely understand [TS]

  yeah that's one of the many reasons to [TS]

  to try to go direct and then for for me [TS]

  personally as a potential that I won't [TS]

  be able to go at all because my wife [TS]

  might have work travel during that time [TS]

  and then I wouldn't have anybody who the [TS]

  kids so potentially I'm not going at all [TS]

  and of course always the option of me [TS]

  not going to take enough don't get one [TS]

  as always I will have to reconsider [TS]

  because i'm not really going there for [TS]

  super duper nightlife and drinking i'm [TS]

  going to sit in boring recessions and [TS]

  learn things and it's not your life of [TS]

  the party people yeah right i'm sure i [TS]

  shall be terribly missed you will like [TS]

  you would be certainly by the two of [TS]

  them are gonna be so excited to be able [TS]

  to figure out a new recording rig where [TS]

  he's got two people live one person [TS]

  remote oh god at make me do that that [TS]

  would be awful [TS]

  yeah anyway I went during the lottery uh [TS]

  anyway and hopefully i'll be able to [TS]

  wear either work out something with [TS]

  childcare or my wife's work travel will [TS]

  change because it's not set in stone at [TS]

  this point is and i totally i love the [TS]

  fact we can start eventually found out [TS]

  so much earlier like even before it like [TS]

  we can't even put are you know name into [TS]

  the Hat for the lottery until the end of [TS]

  march so they gave us so much notice [TS]

  which is great [TS]

  it's like so so much more relaxing [TS]

  although the mad rush is still there [TS]

  because as soon as everyone but I felt [TS]

  like I found out like an hour after [TS]

  everybody else did despite the fact that [TS]

  through many venues if i just opened my [TS]

  eyes I would have known much sooner and [TS]

  then I'm scrambling to try to get a [TS]

  number with a one in front of it as my [TS]

  hotel room rate which i think it barely [TS]

  did but I mean all in all i'm i'm [TS]

  tentatively excited like I said I i [TS]

  think i think this could be a bunch of [TS]

  awesome changes now certainly could be [TS]

  garbage and it could work out really [TS]

  poorly and they'll be nowhere to go [TS]

  after hours nothing to do but i'm [TS]

  excited i think i think it could be a [TS]

  lot of fun and I'm really looking [TS]

  forward to seeing how it all turns out [TS]

  so I'm we came just a little more the [TS]

  venue stuff that we all agree that there [TS]

  isn't the [TS]

  you know will not be in the Steve Jobs [TS]

  theater on a park it's just not enough [TS]

  yeah not even close yeah I always wonder [TS]

  wonder about the theater why they made [TS]

  it i mean i guess for press events [TS]

  thousands probably plenty but apples [TS]

  handle a lot of press events and bigger [TS]

  venues like even the watch event will [TS]

  help like 5000 or something so kind of [TS]

  wonder why they made it so small [TS]

  well I mean I'm sure the rationale was [TS]

  basically like you know we can we can [TS]

  have some events on campus which we do [TS]

  and we get the smaller events that are [TS]

  like 5,000 people in the room they just [TS]

  having a campus and the rationale was [TS]

  probably like to make it meaningfully [TS]

  bigger it's like do we want to put a [TS]

  5000 person theater and our campus and [TS]

  that's a lot of people shove into one [TS]

  room it's a really big room it's like [TS]

  it's that's probably a massive [TS]

  undertaking for relatively little [TS]

  benefit like they can just go book a [TS]

  place in san francisco for that a tour [TS]

  books and was a conference center for [TS]

  the Hat and it's probably fine like so I [TS]

  hope that all Steve Jobs theater is just [TS]

  a facade for the 800 levels of [TS]

  sub-basement where they do the car [TS]

  development right that's like that the [TS]

  underground just in the underground test [TS]

  track facility that's a complete a [TS]

  recreation of nürburgring yeah that's [TS]

  it with artificial sunlight over the [TS]

  whole thing [TS]

  mmm III would not assume that there's [TS]

  going to be any involvement between [TS]

  apple's new campus and this in WC like I [TS]

  don't think it's gonna be anything there [TS]

  they don't really need to and it would [TS]

  be a pretty big ordeal like to like [TS]

  5,000 people is a lot like to do [TS]

  anything with 5,000 people like that [TS]

  that is a large logistical challenge and [TS]

  when the people can just walk two [TS]

  different buildings that are all within [TS]

  the same data an area that's way easier [TS]

  you know we'll see what happens well [TS]

  good luck you two getting tickets [TS]

  that's right for ticket or not no I i [TS]

  decided last year I you know I'm always [TS]

  so like double and triple booked for [TS]

  things i want to do during that week [TS]

  during every time of every day [TS]

  hello Brock that I that like there's [TS]

  just ate a ticket on me at this point i [TS]

  would feel better with somebody else [TS]

  getting it like I I feel like it's [TS]

  wasted on me now because there's so much [TS]

  else I want to do during those daytime [TS]

  slots and last year I didn't go that [TS]

  many sessions and I felt really bad [TS]

  about that [TS]

  so this year I'm just gonna let you know [TS]

  I'm just gonna let someone else get my [TS]

  ticket [TS]

  this time because i think i don't i [TS]

  don't need it anymore now that I'm [TS]

  giving you a hard time but I actually [TS]

  felt very similarly now I did have [TS]

  layers that I went to almost the [TS]

  entirety of last year and quick aside if [TS]

  you for some reason want to be in that [TS]

  area and and you don't get a ticket or [TS]

  perhaps you want something a little less [TS]

  developer centric layers is a great [TS]

  conference and and i think i could've [TS]

  sworn i saw that they were at least [TS]

  sworn i saw that they were at least [TS]

  contemplating going to San Jose but i [TS]

  might be lying about that double check [TS]

  me but but yeah if players is the thing [TS]

  again be in san francisco or san jose it [TS]

  is definitely worth checking out [TS]

  but anyways last year you know I had a [TS]

  lot more availability because I didn't [TS]

  have a conference ticket to WGCI had 12 [TS]

  layers and i still felt a bit [TS]

  overwhelmed and triple booked and I'm [TS]

  giving you a hard time about humble [TS]

  bragging about how busy you were but [TS]

  truth be told I i totally understand and [TS]

  I i am in the exact same boat i will be [TS]

  trying for ticket for sure because i [TS]

  think i still have a lot to get from it [TS]

  I in a way that I don't know that you [TS]

  necessarily do marco i agree with what [TS]

  you just said but we'll see what happens [TS]

  John obviously we'll be putting in his [TS]

  hat in the ring and we'll see how it [TS]

  goes but what I'm looking forward to it [TS]

  one way the other forgot about layers [TS]

  and that's an option like i would that [TS]

  would be an excuse for me to go it's [TS]

  like well I didn't get a ticket but oh [TS]

  well i'll buy tickets layers instead [TS]

  yeah you know I feel guilty because I [TS]

  feel the same way but truth be told [TS]

  layers really is a great conference like [TS]

  I it shouldn't I shouldn't be [TS]

  positioning it as an also-ran because it [TS]

  really is really really good now full [TS]

  disclosure you know the the one of the [TS]

  women that runs layers Jesse charge he [TS]

  also does our ad sales and so we're [TS]

  inclined to like her anyway but truth [TS]

  the truth matter she's awesome and it [TS]

  went in the direction she does our ad [TS]

  sales because we liked her so much [TS]

  that's better actually yeah and in [TS]

  layers just it's such an unbelievably [TS]

  good conference in a very diverse [TS]

  conference in a way that wdc is not [TS]

  which is super refreshing and really [TS]

  really awesome [TS]

  yes actually that's what that's what [TS]

  that is one of the biggest things that I [TS]

  had that I want to do instead of going [TS]

  to be so this year like I really want I [TS]

  hope layers happens if it does happen [TS]

  i'm there no question [TS]

  yeah i mean it shouldn't be positioned [TS]

  as an also-ran it is it is a peer 2wd [TS]

  see it is truly a tremendous show so [TS]

  anyway so yeah so we'll see what happens [TS]

  but i'm looking forward to one way or [TS]

  another and I i really really hope that [TS]

  that all three of us make it out there [TS]

  so i will put in a good word with tina [TS]

  to temporarily quit her job or something [TS]

  if need be [TS]

  small price to pay my right all right [TS]

  thanks a lot 23 sponsors this week [TS]

  hover warby parker and indochino and [TS]

  we'll see you next week [TS]

  now the show is over they didn't even [TS]

  mean to be in because it was accidental [TS]

  it was accidental John research Margo [TS]

  and Casey wouldn't let him because it [TS]

  was accidentally was accidental and you [TS]

  can find the show know that ACP die and [TS]

  if your twitter follow them [TS]

  yes eyl ISS so that's Casey list and a [TS]

  co-pay rm20 Marco Arment and our AC [TS]

  Syracuse is [TS]

  I have had been gaming again the apple [TS]

  TV without my son and a while back and [TS]

  like right after i finished playing [TS]

  through all the all the emulator stuff [TS]

  with Providence on the appletv I i was [TS]

  playing them all with the the the [TS]

  steelseries is that the nimbus [TS]

  controller it was you know that whatever [TS]

  the numbers i think it's steelseries and [TS]

  it's you know one of the many like fifty [TS]

  dollar apple TV game gamepad controller [TS]

  things and it's fine it's not great but [TS]

  it's fine [TS]