Roderick on the Line

Ep. 102: "The Birkenstock Point"


  hello hi jata hai Berlin how's it going [TS]

  good good super good except that I [TS]

  thought I had more coffee than I have no [TS]

  you know the raw materials that the [TS]

  beans i had you know one of the things [TS]

  about having people stay over at your [TS]

  house is that you're not anymore in [TS]

  charge of any aspect of your stores just [TS]

  got you guys just keep relearning that [TS]

  over and over [TS]

  you know that right it's one of those [TS]

  things you know [TS]

  yep you know when i had the the game [TS]

  changers up here who at some point after [TS]

  after the game changers weekend I went [TS]

  you know I went into the pantry thinking [TS]

  I had X number of certain items mostly [TS]

  hobby software keep our cigars yeah [TS]

  bacon and it was all gone but it was [TS]

  like it was like locusts that come [TS]

  through and I felt like Richard Gere out [TS]

  i should have just started a fire in my [TS]

  house and burden like Elizabeth Taylor [TS]

  you open your closet expect to see all [TS]

  those beautiful gowns and Underpants [TS]

  it's just just ma's laughing at you but [TS]

  the monster gone so yeah so I flew a [TS]

  little bit close to the Sun letting [TS]

  other people in my kitchen and now I [TS]

  went downstairs I was like time for a [TS]

  pot of coffee and what I found instead [TS]

  was a refrigerator full of ice cream [TS]

  well first of all freezer full of ice [TS]

  cream a refrigerator full of ice cream [TS]

  would have been a disaster but you know [TS]

  my am I i went to a birthday party and [TS]

  then somebody got somebody got the idea [TS]

  that the leftovers we're going to go [TS]

  with me but only certain leftovers and [TS]

  what that ended up being was like four [TS]

  gallons of ice cream is a good ice cream [TS]

  yeah it's fine like kid ice cream and no [TS]

  no it's not ice milk it's ice cream [TS]

  no care of it this way you know what [TS]

  they say God never closes a door without [TS]

  opening some ice cream [TS]

  I i love God God is you know I this is [TS]

  probably just from my background in my [TS]

  fear of probation but like I don't like [TS]

  running out of things [TS]

  mm no I think I think my lady and I we [TS]

  don't disagree on this is just that it [TS]

  means a lot to me to make sure that [TS]

  there's another guy's got one in the [TS]

  chamber right well you're a guy who [TS]

  drinks 20 cams of carbonated water a day [TS]

  have you cut back well the problem is [TS]

  you know i've been using the the [TS]

  SodaStream thing when you buy a big tank [TS]

  know you and I've been out of that for a [TS]

  while and i've been really lazy because [TS]

  you've got to take in your empties each [TS]

  one of those things wait a few pounds [TS]

  you have to get in and train them in so [TS]

  I falling back into my old ways and i [TS]

  begin 12-packs of cans and my wife does [TS]

  not like the cans [TS]

  yeah because I drink seriously I do [TS]

  drink / 12 pack of those a day [TS]

  yeah well I'm the thing about the cans I [TS]

  mean I haven't been to your house in [TS]

  awhile but why remember the can era the [TS]

  thing about those Kansas that there's [TS]

  you know which end up with this like six [TS]

  or seven cans with some carbonated water [TS]

  in them kind of lying around [TS]

  that's me there's like half a carat [TS]

  carbonated water here half a can of [TS]

  carbonated water there and loses its [TS]

  carbonation pretty fast and that's just [TS]

  pop cans full of water [TS]

  yeah i yeah okay sure what i do is what [TS]

  happens with me is I usually slam like i [TS]

  usually out down down a 12 count can [TS]

  pretty quick and i started another one [TS]

  and that's the 1i forget is the second [TS]

  or third one and this yeah they did they [TS]

  accumulate and you can pretty much you [TS]

  know there's that sense of like you're [TS]

  going to walk into a room and you're [TS]

  like I just know there's going to be in [TS]

  this case like a can of seltzer and then [TS]

  there is one by the bed on my daughter's [TS]

  bed is a couple by the couch [TS]

  that's how you know you have a problem [TS]

  when you're when you you're leaving your [TS]

  hands around your daughter's bed she [TS]

  thinks she's better than me that's not [TS]

  better than me [TS]

  I mean I understand slamming a can of [TS]

  seltzer water if you're just about to [TS]

  get into a burp fight with somebody [TS]

  who but I don't like slam and one it [TS]

  seems like the opposite of what seltzer [TS]

  is good at I feel so good [TS]

  burns it burns like drinking beer you [TS]

  know I think I started drinking Seltzer [TS]

  more around the time I stopped drinking [TS]

  beer [TS]

  I used to drink a lot of beer and i [TS]

  think i like the it's kind of like my [TS]

  ethernet cigarette I guess I i like i [TS]

  like these things a lot in there are [TS]

  there was a refresh me anytime I get up [TS]

  something to get Miller night to urinate [TS]

  as you do and I'll just go boom have [TS]

  seltzer [TS]

  yeah right and it's not it's no calories [TS]

  no fuss no muss you don't owe anybody [TS]

  anything but then I then I crushed and [TS]

  throw it against the wall and wake [TS]

  everybody up [TS]

  fuck you a public you think that's [TS]

  outlive him [TS]

  yeah yeah I think intelligence by on my [TS]

  all-time favorite professors in college [TS]

  my was on the committee my poetry [TS]

  professor is my sponsor most of the time [TS]

  i was there he added he was one of those [TS]

  people were like I just don't know how [TS]

  he felt his life was really complicated [TS]

  you know you don't make even you know as [TS]

  a full professor at florida university [TS]

  you don't make that that much money [TS]

  you're getting paid and seeds and stems [TS]

  and he had is a his mom who is you know [TS]

  completely like need a total total care [TS]

  live with them his his son who is [TS]

  developmentally disabled live with him [TS]

  some of the time he taught at other [TS]

  places at the same time multiple women [TS]

  yeah this is a guy you know what the [TS]

  Princeton was one of the first [TS]

  professors at school is a great guy like [TS]

  anybody wants a new college remember Mac [TS]

  Miller he was just the best but you can [TS]

  tell stress Macklemore Macklemore Miller [TS]

  that's right with ryan lewis and what he [TS]

  would do is though he's always smoking [TS]

  two things about Max's first of all like [TS]

  you've never actually seen Mac drink a [TS]

  beer [TS]

  he would bring it bring out some of the [TS]

  braincase your class and and you would [TS]

  you don't hear the beer [TS]

  those were the days you hear ya haha [TS]

  alright dude your hips you look and it [TS]

  was like against the doctor who [TS]

  references like the the weeping angels [TS]

  you can actually see the move [TS]

  you don't see anything here was and then [TS]

  you look back here and crushing the can [TS]

  and something with cigarettes he was and [TS]

  he's one of those guys like Matthew [TS]

  McConaughey smoker like [TS]

  you really each one was like a little [TS]

  conjugal visit like he smoke the shit [TS]

  out of a cigarette in front of a [TS]

  classroom every smoking class is a lot [TS]

  of time haha ok I got talking about my [TS]

  school and you can make up your own [TS]

  classes there and yeah it's kinda like I [TS]

  don't know if you ever saw the Grateful [TS]

  Dead I was uh yeah okay for you saw them [TS]

  saw the shit no I was born to basically [TS]

  create I like rock music ah i was [TS]

  fortunate to see them live three shots [TS]

  sure back when the early nineties you i [TS]

  fell in you fell in with the deadheads [TS]

  lady lady [TS]

  by the early nineties i was already i [TS]

  was already transitioned touch of grey [TS]

  spoke to you look really good [TS]

  well you know what it was it was that I [TS]

  couldn't afford birkenstock so they were [TS]

  costly they were expensive and all the [TS]

  cool kids had him for that for that that [TS]

  one summer I think it was the summer of [TS]

  88 they think they got big fast [TS]

  oh and it was Birkenstocks everywhere [TS]

  all the you know it was you know what it [TS]

  was Birkenstocks and mountain bikes they [TS]

  were both they both became popular that [TS]

  that same summer before 1988 levels get [TS]

  a whole chapter about that is that right [TS]

  huh [TS]

  before nine point yeah there was no [TS]

  mountain bikes I've never heard of a [TS]

  mountain bike if you wanted to ride your [TS]

  bike off road [TS]

  you got a BMX bike got a big BMX bike if [TS]

  you were full-grown person then all of a [TS]

  sudden mountain bikes were invented and [TS]

  but everybody was wearing Birkenstocks [TS]

  and I was like I don't have them [TS]

  I campaign ninety dollars for a pair of [TS]

  sandals I don't have any money and I [TS]

  don't have any money to get a mountain [TS]

  bike and i'm getting left behind here [TS]

  and I feel like that was also the summer [TS]

  that everybody was where everybody was [TS]

  wearing raybans not Wayfarers they were [TS]

  wearing aviators wear a banner aviators [TS]

  and so I'm looking around looking to my [TS]

  left there's a guy in ray ban aviators [TS]

  with Birkenstocks is riding a mountain [TS]

  bike i looked to my right same same [TS]

  story and I'm i got nothing so i was [TS]

  like i'm gonna start going to seek see [TS]

  great that whenever i can just to try [TS]

  and just trying to even the playing [TS]

  field [TS]

  but one of the things about seeing the [TS]

  Grateful Dead was Jerry Garcia become [TS]

  Jerry Jerry Jerry he called papa with [TS]

  that he's got a name [TS]

  hi Jerry Jerry care i think jer if [TS]

  you're really into it there Jerry would [TS]

  like in the middle of a solo butta baby [TS]

  food will be provided it means we can [TS]

  have that you can have a middle to [TS]

  something that's never ended it would he [TS]

  would walk he would walk kind of around [TS]

  behind his amp let's go to cook and [TS]

  Craft services the solo would keep going [TS]

  and there would be and then from behind [TS]

  the amp that would be a cloud of smoke [TS]

  and i don't mean like I don't mean like [TS]

  somebody took a puff of a cigarette [TS]

  I mean like somebody i mean like the [TS]

  cloud of smoke like they release when [TS]

  the Pope is chosen like like bows from [TS]

  behind the amp like oh holy shit jerky [TS]

  it just caught on fire spontaneously [TS]

  combusted and then you come up and come [TS]

  back out from around the amp the solo [TS]

  never stopped and I don't know what all [TS]

  went on behind the am but I think about [TS]

  it still like I think about a night at [TS]

  the time I was like not that's living / [TS]

  he goes back there he probably goes into [TS]

  one of those john travolta Bubble Boy [TS]

  tense over and all the drugs and he just [TS]

  he confuses us kid [TS]

  he isn't a dream job though i mean the [TS]

  the idea that like that is set aside the [TS]

  whole plan in a rock band that's that's [TS]

  awesome enough to begin with a pseudo [TS]

  rock band but just the idea that you [TS]

  could still keep doing your job [TS]

  disappear for a while into a puff of [TS]

  indeterminate smoke and everybody would [TS]

  still be just as satisfied with your job [TS]

  that dream if you go around behind your [TS]

  amp and you and your drug ballot have [TS]

  like a bong wrangler I'm sure he did and [TS]

  he's still play he's still playing his [TS]

  guitar [TS]

  www.getcash people are people are [TS]

  sticking needles in people [TS]

  chin up nose and it's like the indy 500 [TS]

  pace car that's right DJ desire they're [TS]

  putting a suppository of it even a fresh [TS]

  liver and many turns back around never [TS]

  even stopped [TS]

  oh man it was extraordinary and I anyway [TS]

  to finish to finish that line of thought [TS]

  I never have only pair of birkenstocks [TS]

  even to this day it's a boy it's it's [TS]

  super frustrating to me as a as a [TS]

  contrarian yeah i really i hate how [TS]

  crazy it makes me feel when something [TS]

  suddenly becomes more than popular it [TS]

  just becomes something that everybody [TS]

  gets which is fine it's called fad but [TS]

  didn't react like second then we act [TS]

  like it's always been this necessary [TS]

  right right and and we nobody ever [TS]

  acknowledges how bananas it is it [TS]

  suddenly it's 1999 we don't know why but [TS]

  suddenly everybody needs a Bronco like [TS]

  everybody needs an SUV and just suddenly [TS]

  became this thing we're like well of [TS]

  course you got your back can't afford a [TS]

  Hummer so I got a Bronco it's like you [TS]

  know what were you doing with that Tyler [TS]

  soccer gear will fit into a country [TS]

  squire just fine [TS]

  yeah but only six that's not the point [TS]

  it's just that suddenly everybody's got [TS]

  to have that it's like the Calvin peeing [TS]

  on something stickers or stickers of [TS]

  like how many kids you have in your [TS]

  family or whatever it's like it suddenly [TS]

  becomes a thing and you gotta do it baby [TS]

  on board fully sixty percent of the [TS]

  vehicles on the road our SUVs i mean III [TS]

  don't know if that's an accurate but it [TS]

  sure seems that way to me everywhere you [TS]

  look every single car make has an SUV [TS]

  and that's a boy Adam for the cowboy hat [TS]

  of driving it's really it's really [TS]

  infuriating because they're terrible [TS]

  cars and they're bad trucks right right [TS]

  i mean this I mean and they need they're [TS]

  like a lot of those that they've never [TS]

  been in fourth gear or they've never [TS]

  been in four-wheel drive in their entire [TS]

  existence have definitely never been in [TS]

  fourth gear in four-wheel drive [TS]

  not unless their son took it out not [TS]

  unless i was driving yeah but yet but [TS]

  even even even as a contrarian and I [TS]

  I've called macrame it's a phenomenon [TS]

  that I simply call macrame because [TS]

  that's me in my lifetime is the [TS]

  canonical example of like what what is [TS]

  how [TS]

  happening why why do we suddenly have [TS]

  macrame and why is it suddenly something [TS]

  everybody's doing and not acting like [TS]

  it's weird that everybody's got jute you [TS]

  know what weird [TS]

  listen us macrame has a special place in [TS]

  my heart [TS]

  are we going out again we go back to the [TS]

  old topic home crafts and it is their [TS]

  place in artistic pantheon without [TS]

  macrame how would you suspend your [TS]

  terrarium yeah right [TS]

  how would you how would you have a [TS]

  terrarium in a in a giant glass globe [TS]

  hanging in your living see that use case [TS]

  you gotta eat yours is a terrarium owner [TS]

  if you need a hanging solution you do [TS]

  and macramé is it [TS]

  I don't think that's how most people do [TS]

  it well my last name is my family make [TS]

  my person my paternal grandmother was [TS]

  for her whole life a crafty person like [TS]

  she had been an area of the with what [TS]

  they called the utility room where she [TS]

  would make christmas ornaments she would [TS]

  make decoupage like every single one of [TS]

  those things that you've seen people [TS]

  make in the last 50 years she did it she [TS]

  was good at it [TS]

  scrapbooking well that's just that [TS]

  that's hoarding with a trip to Michael [TS]

  and basically haha but yeah right your [TS]

  majesty i don't i wasn't a hoarder i [TS]

  still have stuff around here either or [TS]

  sorry no offense I you know what my old [TS]

  houses a scrapbook my mom what [TS]

  everyone's well we'll will divest [TS]

  yourself of another box that she feels [TS]

  is like keeping her from being able to [TS]

  fly [TS]

  she's like I don't want this anymore and [TS]

  she hands me a box and all open and it [TS]

  seemed every once in awhile it will [TS]

  contain some like item of incredible [TS]

  lace or you know a super super like [TS]

  detailed handwork needlework that you [TS]

  would never ever you would be able to [TS]

  buy any price and she's like you know my [TS]

  grandmother made that my great [TS]

  grandmother made that and you're just [TS]

  imagining that the skill involved in the [TS]

  patriarchy training the women to be that [TS]

  involved in such a useless task so that [TS]

  they don't have a political power [TS]

  extraordinary but you got to keep their [TS]

  hands busy you do you have otherwise [TS]

  they're going to call meetings and stuff [TS]

  have to keep them thinking about [TS]

  something you think about lace what you [TS]

  think about think about lace and you [TS]

  talk to each other about lace let's talk [TS]

  more oily and meanwhile meanwhile we're [TS]

  buying your father's farm who is [TS]

  terrible turns around and got the early [TS]

  mustache too late [TS]

  yeah I always think about that late [TS]

  eighties time because if you recall this [TS]

  is a very difficult thing to explain to [TS]

  young people but there was a little of [TS]

  everything is explained to them haha [TS]

  tell me about those African necklaces [TS]

  that tell a soul war but that moment in [TS]

  1988 where the nostalgia for 1968 [TS]

  reached its Apogee and we basically the [TS]

  summer of 88 we relived the summer of 68 [TS]

  except dumber lamer sugar in every [TS]

  respect [TS]

  I don't know if I don't know where you [TS]

  were on the I was pretty happy [TS]

  yeah right and and and even realize I [TS]

  was always a fake Marxist fake hippie [TS]

  fake punk rock but I was a happy guy but [TS]

  i mean i was i was heavily invested in [TS]

  what you can very loosely call [TS]

  alternative culture right and thats [TS]

  interesting culture had coalesced yet [TS]

  but also that at my school have to [TS]

  interview my school in their scientists [TS]

  of hippies they're like it with the the [TS]

  real remember that you may not remember [TS]

  the harmonic convergence was coming and [TS]

  it was like science for hippies like [TS]

  there was gonna be some big shit going [TS]

  down this is going to the native [TS]

  whatever the age after Aquarius is the [TS]

  age of libra I don't know what it was [TS]

  but something something serious was [TS]

  going to be going down night 1990 is [TS]

  going to make 19 670 look like no was it [TS]

  was a dennis hopper quote from the movie [TS]

  1969 no no it wasn't it was a dennis [TS]

  hopper quote from another movie that he [TS]

  started with Kiefer Sutherland hd8 know [TS]

  it will but it wasn't a retro movie it [TS]

  was a it was a contemporary movie where [TS]

  he wear his quote was his big cock was [TS]

  I wasn't 1989 is going to make 1969 look [TS]

  like 1979 or something like that 1989 is [TS]

  gonna make check the source 1990 is [TS]

  going to make 1970 look like 1980 no.19 [TS]

  that the 1990s is gonna make 1969 look [TS]

  like 1950s something like that it was a [TS]

  real put down i'll just have to take [TS]

  that whole-ass a t-test yeah you got a [TS]

  shopper SI t you just got to the [TS]

  coloring portion of the the point being [TS]

  that that that there was there was [TS]

  really and and i remember seeing that [TS]

  movie that was the that was that that [TS]

  may be the one year where I went to see [TS]

  every movie and that 1969 with the with [TS]

  the 110 rider and the and the junkie [TS]

  that plays the superhero now [TS]

  Oh Robert Downey jr. Robert Downey jr. [TS]

  you know like I teared up in that movie [TS]

  I teared up as crosby Stills and Nash [TS]

  use wooden ships played and that and [TS]

  they got in their vote beat the two main [TS]

  characters got in the Box wagon bus and [TS]

  headed out across America like that I [TS]

  was like and I was being spoon-fed [TS]

  sixties nostalgia and and and and I was [TS]

  allowing it to be my own use [TS]

  like I was [TS]

  I was 20 and i was looking at this movie [TS]

  about 20 year olds from 20 years before [TS]

  and liked and weeping that I didn't have [TS]

  a Vietnam you know to be mad about fucks [TS]

  my vietnam vietnam and the and you know [TS]

  and that lasted I mean that lasted [TS]

  honestly until a grunge I'm sad to say [TS]

  but like that sense of that sense of the [TS]

  sixties being this being this shadow on [TS]

  our youth that our generation just was [TS]

  like laboring under this nineteen [TS]

  sixties cloud and yeah I was a hippie [TS]

  and what the fuck was I looking for i [TS]

  was looking for is partly I think it's [TS]

  because the sixties generation never [TS]

  produced anything after the sixties you [TS]

  know they were stuck in our inner in a [TS]

  complete retro nostalgia trip about [TS]

  themselves and there were so many of a [TS]

  moose they were so powerful that they [TS]

  just like that's weird it's almost like [TS]

  the sixties ended in 1968 but kind of [TS]

  didn't really end until nineteen eighty [TS]

  i well I'm gonna go watch boogie nights [TS]

  or something like that and like it [TS]

  really it really is like people really [TS]

  thought stuff was gonna be really really [TS]

  different but I'm i would argue that it [TS]

  that it lasted until nineteen ninety [TS]

  from in the same kind of like a in the [TS]

  same like frozen states because your [TS]

  expectations like enough time for the [TS]

  that generation that baby boomers to [TS]

  come into power and purchase purchasing [TS]

  and political power like there was this [TS]

  latent period where it should have just [TS]

  gone away but then right about the time [TS]

  it should have gone away they were the [TS]

  ones out there who are like you know you [TS]

  get the big chill culture coming around [TS]

  again [TS]

  right right of well yeah that there's [TS]

  that I mean that that that all through [TS]

  the seventies I think they were still I [TS]

  mean most of those people were like [TS]

  really into x and high-five high-five [TS]

  stereo systems I mean I'm just [TS]

  basing this on old copies of we magazine [TS]

  but starting in nineteen eighty like [TS]

  they were so let's think about the baby [TS]

  boomers for second as much as I hate to [TS]

  do it in 1980 let's say the average baby [TS]

  boomer was 30 years old and they are a [TS]

  little bit taken their taken by surprise [TS]

  by punk rock new wave and disco I mean [TS]

  disco I think they were they were on [TS]

  board but punk rock new wave it that's [TS]

  brand-new and and editing and it doesn't [TS]

  involve them it's not about them and so [TS]

  they even at 30 years old that [TS]

  generation starts to turn back and look [TS]

  at themselves as a unit they start to [TS]

  circle the wagons and that's what that's [TS]

  the that's the beginning of when you [TS]

  start to see this like well really [TS]

  nothing ever happened after the sixties [TS]

  like really the sixties with the peak [TS]

  like 1968 that was the peak you know [TS]

  yeah you started to hear that idea in [TS]

  American culture and and that that [TS]

  natural thing I mean in 1992 n it at [TS]

  every point along the way you look back [TS]

  10 years and go boy things really suck [TS]

  10 years ago and then ten years after [TS]

  that you're like wow things were amazing [TS]

  20 years ago [TS]

  you know there's that there's that [TS]

  strange skips a mini generation kinda [TS]

  yeah and and you can I mean you remember [TS]

  how much shit we talked about the music [TS]

  of the seventies we talked so much shit [TS]

  about the music of the seventies or in [TS]

  the late eighties early nineties i mean [TS]

  i-i had multiple conversations with [TS]

  people where everybody accepted the [TS]

  basic premise which was that the [TS]

  seventies were the worst Joe the worst [TS]

  decade for music it can only be enjoyed [TS]

  ironically it was only 20 years but I [TS]

  mean I remember like for example and [TS]

  have a nice day collection came out [TS]

  which is full of like am radio hits that [TS]

  I loved as a kid and still really like [TS]

  today but it's all very it was very [TS]

  ironic you know effect from from removed [TS]

  and I remember that [TS]

  oh it's a look at this garbage the best [TS]

  like think about 20 like got popular and [TS]

  around the time that like house music [TS]

  was starting to really get big and [TS]

  raving was making a pre raising kind of [TS]

  age but still like the whole idea of [TS]

  these like massive dance parties is [TS]

  coming around that were very in some [TS]

  ways very influenced by the by certain [TS]

  sixties kind of five so far as justice [TS]

  as you said before della soul that right [TS]

  first record very very sixties [TS]

  graphically and the daily Sasha the days [TS]

  eh LOL dayz age y'all but the the the [TS]

  thing about this also i like how in [TS]

  1990s safe in 1992 like clothes from [TS]

  1972 look so preposterous so you'd see [TS]

  like Susanna Hoffs like ironically [TS]

  wearing bell-bottoms in a video or [TS]

  something or you think about the delight [TS]

  video which is having a lot of fun with [TS]

  that iconography but the thing is stuff [TS]

  from 1972 looks timeless compared to [TS]

  what people are wearing in 1992 go watch [TS]

  it go into early sign fell and you're [TS]

  like oh my god people i mean the [TS]

  nineties is so much more eighties in the [TS]

  eighties ever was [TS]

  yeah are you hip now to the to this new [TS]

  the little or no guard earth where you [TS]

  know of course it's like artisanal toast [TS]

  i think that's got to be a prank people [TS]

  are wearing mock turtlenecks and that [TS]

  dad jeans and I thing is you know i read [TS]

  i read a couple of articles about it [TS]

  where it's like is this real [TS]

  but I mean I i know some kids and Israel [TS]

  there there [TS]

  the kids are rocking not just Cosby [TS]

  sweaters but like to the next level of [TS]

  ya registration scott simpson was ahead [TS]

  of this all along [TS]

  yeah he was wearing mock turtlenecks the [TS]

  entire time before it was uncool up so I [TS]

  don't know I I still I still feel a [TS]

  little bit of of of resent resentment [TS]

  like a little bit of residual resentment [TS]

  about the way the sixties [TS]

  [Music] [TS]

  the the way this the urine smell of the [TS]

  sixties was all over the music of the [TS]

  late eighties I'm still mad at me [TS]

  that's why I'm exam that's why only [TS]

  always grown so that in the end the [TS]

  Birkenstocks and yeah that whole I mean [TS]

  you know I I feel like I dovin to drugs [TS]

  with at least a certain amount of [TS]

  expectation that I mean the way that's [TS]

  the way the sixties culture subculture [TS]

  looked back on itself and the way that [TS]

  drugs had freed their mind and the way [TS]

  that drugs were you know what separated [TS]

  them from the squares and you know that [TS]

  whole division that that might have been [TS]

  and I think probably was pretty poignant [TS]

  in 1962 through 64 like we're doing [TS]

  drugs no one else has ever even heard of [TS]

  them [TS]

  this is you know like we are really [TS]

  outside but but the matter the by the [TS]

  time the mass culture got ahold of drugs [TS]

  and it was just like a yeah all right [TS]

  you all right you bunch of spoiled kids [TS]

  but when i was 17 18 years old [TS]

  that was back in them and you know and [TS]

  I'm not even saying it was in that it [TS]

  was in the top level of the culture but [TS]

  it was it was throughout the culture [TS]

  this wing king between baby boomers like [TS]

  remember remember the ship we saw [TS]

  remember the drugs and the times and all [TS]

  the sex remember and at 17 and / you [TS]

  know perceptive of of subtexts I was [TS]

  like well yeah i wanna do the drugs and [TS]

  and have the section and run away and [TS]

  Volkswagen button and and protest the [TS]

  war me when we had a course ronald [TS]

  reagan that could stand in for a lot of [TS]

  the it could stand in for fifties [TS]

  suburban culture that we were rebelling [TS]

  against but yeah I would have liked to [TS]

  have at the one regret I have had not [TS]

  being punk [TS]

  is that punk legitimately was its own [TS]

  what was a subculture of my time that I [TS]

  could have participated in more actively [TS]

  and it would have felt like it belonged [TS]

  to me over and instead i rejected punk [TS]

  for a you know for a handful of valid [TS]

  reasons but instead i was i was sampling [TS]

  from this buffet of other American [TS]

  cultures that none of them belong to me [TS]

  and they were all kind of Lies and and [TS]

  now and i look back at that time 80 [TS]

  let's say 87 through 90 one as a time [TS]

  like I just I feel a little bit ashamed [TS]

  even through because I feel ashamed that [TS]

  I when I went to the Grateful Dead not [TS]

  that I not because of the music but [TS]

  because i was i went there looking for [TS]

  I wasn't looking for a party I was [TS]

  looking for enlightenment and that seems [TS]

  idiotic to me now [TS]

  yeah i can see that i felt that way [TS]

  going to see like you to in 1985 you're [TS]

  looking for enlightenment a kind of [TS]

  enlightenment they were they were [TS]

  transcendent in a lot of ways [TS]

  no I mean look at the charts dude your [TS]

  beloved Phil Collins you got Whitney [TS]

  Houston you got Billy ocean you got [TS]

  sharda and then you got them singing [TS]

  about Martin Luther King I mean it [TS]

  really seemed very important to me and [TS]

  their shows were very you know it was I [TS]

  I'm not gonna sit here and i'm super [TS]

  wise or anything now but I i think i [TS]

  understand a little bit more about [TS]

  stagecraft today then I then I did then [TS]

  understanding stagecraft is probably [TS]

  part of what allows you to enjoy the [TS]

  miley cyrus thinking like oh my god [TS]

  now that you're officially an old man [TS]

  you're allowed to go to things go how [TS]

  did they do that [TS]

  that must have been expensive care about [TS]

  the lawsuit [TS]

  miley cyrus has a lawsuit yeah well [TS]

  who's sooner [TS]

  one of the guys who worked on the tongue [TS]

  got injured oh bummer [TS]

  all the time when the tongue builders [TS]

  see my experience is so vastly different [TS]

  because up and just finish the story [TS]

  from an hour ago somebody you could tell [TS]

  when that when that Professor was [TS]

  getting really stressed out because he [TS]

  started second cigarette already [TS]

  everyone was still burning [TS]

  yeah and a couple occasions and these [TS]

  days you did now these are the days when [TS]

  he said let's sit here and go through [TS]

  the pile and talk about what everybody [TS]

  get wrong today when he was really [TS]

  stressed fact he would actually [TS]

  sometimes get a third cigarette lit and [TS]

  that's when you just like SAT very [TS]

  quietly you can be a bad classes going [TS]

  to top that is called pathetic fallacy [TS]

  Rose can't have an angry for no that [TS]

  doesn't make any sense literally doesn't [TS]

  make any sense that was me it was me [TS]

  apparently [TS]

  thank you sore nose is angry throwing a [TS]

  call it twice that week it was a nose as [TS]

  an angry thorn it mrs. before that I [TS]

  think was it [TS]

  I don't even know I can't even keep [TS]

  track but the thing is this school was [TS]

  such a little funky petri dish it's in [TS]

  sarasota florida there were five hundred [TS]

  and twenty students in this entire [TS]

  college when I went there everybody you [TS]

  I mean I honestly set can say my [TS]

  products my memory was better but I knew [TS]

  at least the first name of every person [TS]

  who went to the school and I had talked [TS]

  to well over a majority probably eighty [TS]

  percent as an RA for a year I knew [TS]

  everybody and I'm barge had been yeah [TS]

  everybody nobody I i went through [TS]

  periods where i was barefoot for a while [TS]

  it goes to a barefoot phase that's [TS]

  something you could do at this school [TS]

  because we were it was a total it was [TS]

  this little speaking of terrariums it [TS]

  really was like a terrarium like [TS]

  it'sit's I hate you know it's funny to [TS]

  admit even at the time I was aware of [TS]

  stuff like all the campus cops were by [TS]

  and large read retired New York City [TS]

  police officers who moved to Florida one [TS]

  of the guys have worked on a boat that [TS]

  the drag the East River another guy's [TS]

  been a homicide cop and they moved to [TS]

  Florida retired to Sarasota and they get [TS]

  all fat and they worked at this college [TS]

  for essentially they protected us they [TS]

  didn't bust us they would have gotten if [TS]

  we are egregious and dicks they would [TS]

  bust us violence they protected us from [TS]

  the community and people came to these [TS]

  parties who want the enlightened drug [TS]

  users that we were they roll them and it [TS]

  was just strange though to have four [TS]

  years in that environment at that time [TS]

  so think about you know it's funny to [TS]

  look up Big Chill I i would have guessed [TS]

  picture came out like 86 came out 1983 [TS]

  yeah it's see that's what I'm saying it [TS]

  was [TS]

  it was the that's the beginning of that [TS]

  response to new wave where I mean in 83 [TS]

  those big chill characters were in their [TS]

  early thirties right and they're already [TS]

  like getting back to the reunion 31 [TS]

  years ago that Jeff Goldblum was in a [TS]

  movie 31-year well he's in Annie Hall in [TS]

  what 1977 bananas but anyway I'm just [TS]

  saying I know I i try to always 11 this [TS]

  am I remembering that my experience is [TS]

  not unique very different and it for me [TS]

  it really was like that first month in [TS]

  haight-ashbury before the heroine [TS]

  arrived it was it was a really amazing [TS]

  about and the parties on the weekends [TS]

  like the mixtapes that really were a hit [TS]

  would be like I white lines talking [TS]

  heads arm like a scratch perry like a [TS]

  reduced this crazy mix of music i had [TS]

  never heard in my entire life and then [TS]

  you might hear like institutionalized or [TS]

  something but whichever you want to [TS]

  dance too but it was a lot it was a lot [TS]

  of like hippies listen to like reggae [TS]

  and hip hop a lot of people from New [TS]

  York that came to the school brought [TS]

  along this culture with them I learned [TS]

  about def jam artists around the same [TS]

  time anyway it's just it's just strange [TS]

  because it was I felt like that just for [TS]

  that one four-year period was such a [TS]

  great time for me even though is you [TS]

  know tumultuous like this for anybody in [TS]

  their early twenties but uh it's then I [TS]

  think about what we like to go somewhere [TS]

  where you just had a ton of weed all the [TS]

  time like outside the terrarium and it [TS]

  scares the shit out of me [TS]

  well this is the thing I pardon me there [TS]

  was a handful of colleges that I and I [TS]

  had never heard of the new school of [TS]

  sarasota florida it's really really [TS]

  small [TS]

  it's it sounds amazing but the ones i [TS]

  was aware of a were get read read santa [TS]

  cruz santa cruz Colorado College [TS]

  masiello like evergreen evergreen I [TS]

  never considered but the aggregators [TS]

  there on the alternative colleges [TS]

  yeah and then you've got the ones like [TS]

  Colby at the become prettier ones that [TS]

  are still kind of small but but other [TS]

  like look like look like bit like [TS]

  liberal liberal arts college yeah your [TS]

  classic enabler [TS]

  antioch and so there was this this [TS]

  little constellation of schools that I [TS]

  that intrigued me and I think probably [TS]

  read was the one that I that I imagined [TS]

  myself at the most that that's in [TS]

  organization or yeah and all of those [TS]

  were places where you know the [TS]

  combination of smallness and [TS]

  exclusiveness and they were expensive [TS]

  and and they were they were places where [TS]

  young people could go and really explore [TS]

  and that was yet and the adults that [TS]

  were in charge felt like that was kind [TS]

  of their mandate like where this is a [TS]

  place for young people to explode but [TS]

  all those places were outside of my i [TS]

  could not reach them and so I was then [TS]

  in the I was basically like out in the [TS]

  world i mean gonzaga university was also [TS]

  small but was not a I mean what-what [TS]

  Gonzaga was was a place for young [TS]

  Catholic people to meet each other and [TS]

  get married before they graduate [TS]

  however remind me how Jesuit the Jesuit [TS]

  part of the school is it was mostly just [TS]

  going through the motions or where you [TS]

  expected to be a person of faith [TS]

  no no I think that I think that the to [TS]

  compromise the judgment colleges make [TS]

  and that that I think all Catholic [TS]

  colleges make is that adults Catholicism [TS]

  is is widespread and diverse enough that [TS]

  you're always going to have half the [TS]

  population are just sort of affluent [TS]

  practicing Catholics but not real [TS]

  thumpers about it who you know what I'm [TS]

  going to a conservative Christian [TS]

  University not at all what I got a [TS]

  mandate a reason for being there because [TS]

  of that one thing [TS]

  yeah if you want to be that if you want [TS]

  to go to Notre Dame and be be a real [TS]

  grind and spend all day in chapel there [TS]

  certainly happy to a comedy but those [TS]

  places are really a place to learn to [TS]

  drink [TS]

  in an adult way you know like you years [TS]

  to learn to be a polite wealthy [TS]

  alcoholic and and to meet and marry a [TS]

  respectable member of your same order [TS]

  right i mean this is where this is where [TS]

  you send your kid to find that to find a [TS]

  mate who is up your same creed and you [TS]

  know and obviously get a good education [TS]

  like pretty quick modification right [TS]

  because it's probably somebody Catholic [TS]

  it's gonna be his family some of his [TS]

  family is enough money to go to [TS]

  university and I mean it's got its got [TS]

  it built in Catholic and respectable and [TS]

  prosperous yes and but there's no so [TS]

  that the Jesuit component Gonzaga yeah [TS]

  there was a house where the judgments [TS]

  lived in a lot of them taught the [TS]

  classes but the judgments are going to [TS]

  their own internal mean they're having [TS]

  relationships with each other that are [TS]

  that are their primary relationships you [TS]

  know where they're related there on her [TS]

  on-again off-again relationship with God [TS]

  or whatever so there wasn't a sense at [TS]

  Gonzaga like here we are here if this is [TS]

  a giant sandbox where the where we're [TS]

  going to let these kids like discover [TS]

  the world if you wanted to discover the [TS]

  world they had they had God there that [TS]

  that that was you know that was [TS]

  available if you were philosophical but [TS]

  if you weren't philosophical there was [TS]

  no you it's a warning courage to be [TS]

  philosophical you know the basketball [TS]

  team was what was what [TS]

  most of the students cared about but I [TS]

  think that was probably an experience [TS]

  that was that was common to every small [TS]

  college in America at the time which is [TS]

  that that I was looking for [TS]

  I was looking for a an experience like [TS]

  the one you're describing it at newcomb [TS]

  new school college and [TS]

  and you know and making it for myself [TS]

  with a small group of friends out of [TS]

  whatever like pieces we could find and [TS]

  usually what that meant was we all [TS]

  climbed into a car and we drove down to [TS]

  riverfront park in Spokane and found [TS]

  some guy on the street that was selling [TS]

  acid and half the time it was just paper [TS]

  dipped in Arsenic and half the time it [TS]

  was like the most amazing acid you ever [TS]

  had in your life and how the hell did [TS]

  they add about some guy and the street [TS]

  in spokane have this stuff and then we [TS]

  would go uh you know take acid and go [TS]

  sit by the river and watch the water and [TS]

  think to ourselves [TS]

  whoa we are we are changing we are no [TS]

  we're not just it changing internally [TS]

  but we are some somehow through this [TS]

  process we are going to make the world a [TS]

  better place I don't know how we're not [TS]

  doing anything but taking drugs but [TS]

  somehow that is supposed to make the [TS]

  world better raising consciousness right [TS]

  somehow my my personal consciousness [TS]

  being changed is is an act of resistance [TS]

  and an active pull its political [TS]

  activism and you know in fact is right [TS]

  it's really passes certain that certain [TS]

  very brief threshold it's none of those [TS]

  things but but I didn't have a you know [TS]

  what it was I didn't have a god [TS]

  the only guide the only mentor i had was [TS]

  like I think most people was television [TS]

  or mass culture and and trying to trying [TS]

  to figure out what the hell what trying [TS]

  to understand what counterculture was [TS]

  just by watching its reflection in the [TS]

  the glasses of mass culture [TS]

  you know what I mean I think so that [TS]

  your it was from a from a certain remove [TS]

  or like almost like almost through [TS]

  translation you're trying to find [TS]

  something authentic and you're watching [TS]

  the shadows on the cave wall sort of [TS]

  exactly yeah there wasn't a like if I [TS]

  had ever met a 30-year old punk rocker [TS]

  who said hey man I know that this seems [TS]

  really stupid to you but there's more to [TS]

  it than that come with me and let me [TS]

  show you a couple of things you know I [TS]

  it but it but he wouldn't have had to [TS]

  have been a punk rocker if I never met a [TS]

  thirty-year-old anything could be [TS]

  somebody who runs a video store it could [TS]

  have been somebody who runs a video [TS]

  store that can be of that can be a real [TS]

  like life chain in a small way real life [TS]

  changing experience i'm gonna say hey go [TS]

  to check out the century you know it's [TS]

  in French you gotta read but like it's [TS]

  you're gonna learn some stuff here but i [TS]

  never had that [TS]

  no I never met and I think some of it is [TS]

  luck of the draw and some of it I think [TS]

  maybe is that maybe I was personally [TS]

  unappealing to 30 year olds when I was [TS]

  20 but to whatever degree that that [TS]

  gesture of taking a young person under [TS]

  your wing even for a moment and saying [TS]

  like hey i see where you are let me let [TS]

  me give you like let me read this book [TS]

  or whatever the the only exchanges like [TS]

  that I was having were either with peers [TS]

  or with much much older adults but [TS]

  nobody that was helping initiate me into [TS]

  the the simultaneous culture that's [TS]

  happening beneath and beside the visible [TS]

  culture and it took meal [TS]

  it took me many years 22 when my way [TS]

  through those corridors and find myself [TS]

  and and feel like a member of it myself [TS]

  that's really interesting to hear you [TS]

  say that because it's [TS]

  I think so [TS]

  can you understand then you can look at [TS]

  something like punk rockers or people [TS]

  who like neway films but can't you on [TS]

  some level also look at somebody who [TS]

  goes to like a Midwestern christian [TS]

  church and understand that it isn't just [TS]

  that they believe in the wizard in the [TS]

  sky there is an element of community to [TS]

  it [TS]

  for example i think that's what's common [TS]

  to all of these things is you finally [TS]

  found a place where you don't feel like [TS]

  an outsider for a little while and you [TS]

  found somebody who and it's so much as [TS]

  to timing that's the other part where [TS]

  you talk about a 30 year old person [TS]

  however person I mean you know you you [TS]

  in order to be a good teacher one of the [TS]

  basic tenets of expertise is [TS]

  understanding that in order to be a good [TS]

  teacher you have to understand the [TS]

  material extremely well but you also [TS]

  have to understand the level of [TS]

  expertise of the person you're talking [TS]

  to otherwise it's pointless right if [TS]

  you're the greatest calculus teacher in [TS]

  the world you it's you're going to have [TS]

  to modulate what you know to talk to the [TS]

  three-year-old and it's it's unusual to [TS]

  find I think it's unusual unless you're [TS]

  like Forrest Gump it's kind of unusual [TS]

  to meet more than a handful of people in [TS]

  your young adulthood who hit you at the [TS]

  right time with the right message to [TS]

  help you understand something that used [TS]

  to seem really opaque [TS]

  yeah so I mean and that's when things [TS]

  like the the punk rocker whatever I mean [TS]

  there's a lot of people look at the [TS]

  castro the castro is not just about [TS]

  intercourse [TS]

  it's about a place where people came for [TS]

  the first time in their life and felt [TS]

  like they weren't an outcast and that [TS]

  there was somebody else in the entire [TS]

  fucking world that was more like them [TS]

  than not like them the first time if you [TS]

  came here from not to be disparaging but [TS]

  if you came here from you know from [TS]

  Missouri or something you probably had [TS]

  not met a really super out guy who like [TS]

  dance on a parade float and was proud of [TS]

  it [TS]

  are you being this Virginia goods [TS]

  Missourians Oh or yes [TS]

  Castro I was theoretically sliding [TS]

  misery for its lack of dancing floating [TS]

  Missouri but that's but since like I can [TS]

  think of these people specific people [TS]

  somebody who maybe a tape that I meant [TS]

  like you know a couple times and gave me [TS]

  a tape of musical change my life for [TS]

  people like I went out to dinner with a [TS]

  couple times friends and my moms who [TS]

  were a little younger that just do all [TS]

  kinds of stuff about No Wave music and [TS]

  it's like I had no idea what they're [TS]

  talking about but it was a base they [TS]

  were so cool and they were so [TS]

  nice and they didn't talk down to me and [TS]

  they treated me like a pier and they [TS]

  made me feel like there is something [TS]

  understandable in this in this opaque [TS]

  culture and the problem pacity is the [TS]

  capacity reads as danger to most of us [TS]

  and sometimes extremely good reasons but [TS]

  anytime there's something out there [TS]

  whether something lot of people into or [TS]

  not many people are into I think if we [TS]

  don't immediately groc it's not unusual [TS]

  to go like oh that's not for me [TS]

  that's weird that's dangerous that's too [TS]

  mainstream that's whatever but it's it's [TS]

  just I feel you know I feel blast i [TS]

  guess to have been to have people come [TS]

  across my path where i wish i had more [TS]

  of them and I want to be that person [TS]

  somebody without being an asshole [TS]

  without going on here listen to Pixies [TS]

  like you no no that's okay i got playing [TS]

  music I'm good but you know necessarily [TS]

  really really good [TS]

  well I i think you were blessed and you [TS]

  know i'm i'm i'm reflecting now I'm who [TS]

  one time I i had ihop adopt afraid to an [TS]

  ad got off in Missoula and I'd made a [TS]

  mistake the the train pulled into [TS]

  Missoula and stopped and it SAT there [TS]

  and i'm sitting on the train and I'm you [TS]

  know I didn't understand how freight [TS]

  trains worked at this point yet and so [TS]

  I'm sitting in various with pitching [TS]

  your tent in a dump [TS]

  no this is after that ok after laughter [TS]

  I'm learning [TS]

  I mean I'm now I'm now successfully [TS]

  choosing freights that are going where I [TS]

  want them to go and i'm able to pick the [TS]

  train knowing its destination or having [TS]

  a general sense of its destination and [TS]

  get on it you know in more or less safe [TS]

  way [TS]

  but this so the train comes to Missoula [TS]

  and it just sits and sits here in the [TS]

  yard and sit here for 10 minutes to 24 [TS]

  12 minutes and my my brain starts [TS]

  turning and I'm like oh I must have [TS]

  gotten on the wrong train this train was [TS]

  just going to Missoula and now it's done [TS]

  and it's a i'm sitting here in the hot [TS]

  Sun cowering hidden you know in this on [TS]

  this flat car full of beams or whatever [TS]

  it is and I should I i guess i should [TS]

  get off this train and find a better [TS]

  trainer or you know I was still I was [TS]

  still too i have my I was more anxious [TS]

  than I was knowledgeable so I jumped [TS]

  down off of the train and I you know I [TS]

  kind of run across the yard to to find [TS]

  some shelter find some shade and then [TS]

  immediately the train that I was on [TS]

  starts moving and pulls out and heads [TS]

  off to denver wherever i was i was [TS]

  trying to go and I was like fuck you [TS]

  know like there goes see you later like [TS]

  if I just stayed on it for another two [TS]

  minutes I would be out of here and on my [TS]

  way and now i'm stuck in Missoula and I [TS]

  got to go through this whole process of [TS]

  finding another train and getting out of [TS]

  here again so I walk into town and i [TS]

  know i know somebody at the college you [TS]

  mean I know you know I knew somebody [TS]

  that was going to school there and so I [TS]

  walk over them like kind of doing that [TS]

  thing that I would do it when I would be [TS]

  in a strange town I'd go to a first [TS]

  thing I do is go to college and try and [TS]

  find the common area the dining hall or [TS]

  the student center and I would just go [TS]

  find a couch there and took my bag [TS]

  behind the chair and just kind of sit [TS]

  and wait for something to happen and [TS]

  more often than not something did you [TS]

  know more often than not somebody would [TS]

  come along and say [TS]

  can I help you and I would say oh yeah [TS]

  i'm looking for this person and I swear [TS]

  to you eighty-five percent of the time [TS]

  no matter where i was even at Rutgers [TS]

  somebody would say that person the [TS]

  person the first person to walk up to me [TS]

  would say oh yeah I know them come with [TS]

  me and if they didn't know who I was [TS]

  looking for they would say oh let me ask [TS]

  this guy and the the next guy would know [TS]

  anyway i'm sitting in the lobby sitting [TS]

  in the student center and university of [TS]

  montana and this guy comes over and sits [TS]

  down next to me and he's like hey how's [TS]

  it going I'm like good and right away he [TS]

  starts talking about Jesus and I've been [TS]

  through it a thousand times already you [TS]

  know I don't I've been through every [TS]

  process the process of like I'm actually [TS]

  going to sit and talk to this guy about [TS]

  Jesus or I'm gonna I'm gonna beat this [TS]

  guy and act like a dummy and have fun [TS]

  with him or I'm gonna tell him to fuck [TS]

  off you know I'd i had i done everything [TS]

  that a young person could do and and now [TS]

  I was just in a place where it's like I [TS]

  don't have a strategy with this guy and [TS]

  frankly I'm I've been tired and I'm kind [TS]

  of feeling a little bit lost and so I'm [TS]

  just gonna I'm just gonna talk to this [TS]

  kind of just going to engage him just as [TS]

  a human being I'm not going to try and [TS]

  I'm not going to try and like it mind [TS]

  met mind-meld or mindfuck with this guy [TS]

  here and so we sit in the student center [TS]

  and he's he is he's talking to me about [TS]

  Jesus and there's this is simultaneous [TS]

  narrative in my head where I'm asking [TS]

  myself are you vulnerable right now to [TS]

  this like what would happen if you just [TS]

  said if you just abandoned your cynicism [TS]

  and just and just went with Jesus like [TS]

  what would that feel like and and i was [TS]

  i was conscious of being able to [TS]

  make that choice you know like at the [TS]

  end up to that point my history as a as [TS]

  a child of my own parents my history as [TS]

  a kind of inhabiting the identity that i [TS]

  had spent my whole life building at all [TS]

  would have always prevented me from [TS]

  being able to take somebody like that [TS]

  seriously but I was sitting there and [TS]

  you know and of course your app also [TS]

  asking yourself the questions based on [TS]

  their received narrative like is this [TS]

  what it means to have your heart opened [TS]

  is this what it feels like when God [TS]

  touches you and opens your heart because [TS]

  I am feeling as i'm doing as disposed to [TS]

  this philosophy as I am to any [TS]

  philosophy right now and you know I had [TS]

  a very nice couple of hours with this [TS]

  guy where he was really excited about [TS]

  his faith and I was just as it seems [TS]

  reasonable to me as anything and and I [TS]

  and i spent probably six months after [TS]

  that walking around going still feeling [TS]

  like Christianity was a cult but [TS]

  wondering whether or not I was like a [TS]

  cult maybe a potential cult member like [TS]

  maybe maybe this is what I should do [TS]

  maybe this is God speaking to me what [TS]

  was it well if you say what was it about [TS]

  that particular exchange or your state [TS]

  of mind or whatever [TS]

  indeed and it wasn't just a simple as [TS]

  like he hacked in with the magic phrase [TS]

  there was what was it about the [TS]

  particular time that made that resonate [TS]

  with you i think it was that I i was [TS]

  very starved for meaning and and had [TS]

  been for years and and had sought [TS]

  meaning everywhere i went and had found [TS]

  none like the philosophies of all the [TS]

  people i admired and none of them none [TS]

  of them were revealed to be really [TS]

  philosophies at all they were just they [TS]

  were faking until they made it or their [TS]

  philosophy was to general there wasn't [TS]

  there did not appear to be any meaning [TS]

  and and I think the idea when i was a [TS]

  teen and in my early twenties was that [TS]

  there was meaning and it was [TS]

  discoverable and it was just hidden from [TS]

  us because we couldn't handle it or we [TS]

  weren't smart enough to detect it and [TS]

  that you know at a certain point it was [TS]

  like there doesn't appear to be any [TS]

  meaning it isn't a question of there [TS]

  being a plan that we aren't [TS]

  that we don't see it's a it is really [TS]

  just that every one of us is doing their [TS]

  own thing and and it only looks like a [TS]

  plan later and I didn't want that I [TS]

  really didn't I wanted there to be a [TS]

  secret and I wanted to be both smart [TS]

  enough and also creative enough or smart [TS]

  enough and also sensitive enough to be [TS]

  the person that discovered it or was [TS]

  capable of hearing it and and knowing it [TS]

  and so at that at that moment and for a [TS]

  while after that I was just like I was [TS]

  open to people that open to people [TS]

  proselytizing what I had already [TS]

  rejected i gave it a new hearing and [TS]

  that was the last that was the last time [TS]

  I considered that there was really a [TS]

  plan and when I went when I came out the [TS]

  other side of that and I mean I would [TS]

  have felt very vulnerable i felt like it [TS]

  if one more person had come up to me and [TS]

  put their arms around my shoulder and [TS]

  said and had seemed smart and funny and [TS]

  gentle that I would have said you know I [TS]

  like the other option for me tonight is [TS]

  sleeping in a boxcar so right yeah i'll [TS]

  come have outcome have a re-creation of [TS]

  dinner with you but on the other side of [TS]

  that I never I never again really [TS]

  believe that there was that that that [TS]

  there was any kind of orchestration to [TS]

  life [TS]

  um it edit and and I don't think I was [TS]

  ever vulnerable again to being [TS]

  brought into a fold or or accepting a [TS]

  doctrine I guess yeah yeah you seem [TS]

  disinclined to give yourself over to [TS]

  most things in general but especially [TS]

  two things where you are so i can't [TS]

  speak for you to speak for yourself but [TS]

  it seems like you're disinclined to go [TS]

  into things we expected to check out [TS]

  it'll actually stop asking questions and [TS]

  be a good German well that's something [TS]

  even if I had done I don't know how I [TS]

  would I don't know at the end of that [TS]

  three-day weekend where I would have [TS]

  been I don't think I don't think there's [TS]

  ever there there's no narrative I i [TS]

  might be SuperDuper 10 times more [TS]

  disappointed i mean you might have you [TS]

  might have been enraged because you [TS]

  might have realized something that was [TS]

  basically fundamentally hypocritical or [TS]

  something about it that you needed to [TS]

  get a little bit closer to the center to [TS]

  to be able to see it [TS]

  well that's what happened to me with [TS]

  working in nonprofits you know I went [TS]

  back east on that same trip and ended up [TS]

  getting a job working at the National [TS]

  Environmental Law Center which was a [TS]

  ralph nader organization kind of [TS]

  connected to the public interest [TS]

  research group and I spent four months [TS]

  really really really engaged in the in [TS]

  the idea that you could that there were [TS]

  liberal organizations that that were [TS]

  paying for lobbyists and that lobbying [TS]

  the government for liberal causes was [TS]

  God's work you know that that was yes a [TS]

  way to throw yourself upon the gears in [TS]

  some ways right [TS]

  I mean you really put your money where [TS]

  your mouth is he to get out there and [TS]

  actually do that and before step for [TS]

  people who don't agree with you that's a [TS]

  big stones it was and it was it and and [TS]

  I was successful at it and and i was [TS]

  promoted within the organization and I [TS]

  got up to the point where [TS]

  I I realized a that the people who were [TS]

  really running this organization were [TS]

  all young lawyers from ivy league [TS]

  schools and I was 21 and they were all [TS]

  probably 27 but they were you know yay [TS]

  Lee's and they believed they knew what [TS]

  was right and they believed they knew [TS]

  what what they had to do and they were [TS]

  working within the system and I felt a [TS]

  certain amount of class resentment [TS]

  because there was a although we although [TS]

  they were older than I was [TS]

  they weren't that much older than I was [TS]

  once you can afford to work at those [TS]

  places are often to use it and unkind [TS]

  phrase trustafarians yeah the people who [TS]

  can afford to make you know [TS]

  twelve-thousand dollars a year working [TS]

  60 hours a week are not people with [TS]

  college loans to pay ya right there with [TS]

  it with a year law degree but they were [TS]

  yeah exactly they were they were smart [TS]

  they were beautiful they were rich and [TS]

  they were politically on the right side [TS]

  and they were devoted to the cause like [TS]

  all of that is very very appealing from [TS]

  a distance you know I imagine that that [TS]

  is what like Roman and hanging out with [TS]

  ronan farrow looks like all it takes all [TS]

  the boxes and the fact that they were [TS]

  born on third and thought they had a [TS]

  triple that they're also liberal enough [TS]

  to know that analogy and to use it [TS]

  against themselves but still that but [TS]

  they still believe that they had a [TS]

  triple but but sitting there within that [TS]

  organization and and and i was in a [TS]

  position where I started asking [TS]

  I up where I was conscious of the money [TS]

  we were raising and I started asking [TS]

  where the money went and I wasn't in a I [TS]

  wasn't a real position to see like nuts [TS]

  and bolts where the money went [TS]

  but we were raising a lot of money [TS]

  and we were raising it because we we [TS]

  were raising it by saying to people buy [TS]

  into sending this army of Canvassers out [TS]

  saying to be knocking on people's doors [TS]

  and saying [TS]

  and saying [TS]

  the Clean Air Act is under assault we [TS]

  need your help [TS]

  and here's where your money is going to [TS]

  go it's going to help to to pass this [TS]

  legislation to support the Clean Air Act [TS]

  to support the Clean Water Act we're [TS]

  raising a ton of money and then what [TS]

  that meant was what that money all got [TS]

  put into a undifferentiated pot there [TS]

  was no like the money that this person [TS]

  raised about the Clean Water Act and the [TS]

  money that this person raised about the [TS]

  Voting Rights Act or whatever it all [TS]

  went into the same pot there was no it [TS]

  was not targeted money and then from [TS]

  that pot what they did was pay lawyers [TS]

  and lobbyists and lawyers and lobbyists [TS]

  took congressman out to dinner and [TS]

  lobbied them and the the disconnect [TS]

  between the righteousness of those kids [TS]

  on the street who were going [TS]

  door-to-door and like you've gotta help [TS]

  please Mr and Mrs America right a [TS]

  fifty-dollar check we need your help and [TS]

  then the ragamuffins who are working for [TS]

  faking and then you then you trace that [TS]

  fifty-dollar check-in and it just ends [TS]

  up it's just steaks and cigars and there [TS]

  was and and within that organization [TS]

  there was a real like the response to me [TS]

  was listen do your job you don't need to [TS]

  know where them you don't need to know [TS]

  about this stuff that's not exactly a [TS]

  cult [TS]

  it felt like a cold i mean that's that's [TS]

  such a different defining characteristic [TS]

  of a cult is it there are you taking [TS]

  people for what they believe is going to [TS]

  be a good life affirming life-changing [TS]

  positive for them change he soon them [TS]

  into the group you you work them really [TS]

  really hard too late they're too [TS]

  exhausted to ask questions [TS]

  I don't know and the thing is i [TS]

  supported everything that that for that [TS]

  organization did I admired everybody [TS]

  involved but again I felt like the [TS]

  moment I recognized myself as a [TS]

  log and the moment that I recognize my [TS]

  own idealism and enthusiasm for this as [TS]

  just a thing they were utilizing to [TS]

  accomplish their goals which was not [TS]

  which I wasn't really privy to your not [TS]

  even want to know the real calls not [TS]

  even allowed to know [TS]

  not even you know never going to be [TS]

  invited into that room right and these [TS]

  guys are not even the ones these guys [TS]

  don't really even have access to the [TS]

  room the real room I just felt like oh [TS]

  well this isn't for me either and you [TS]

  know that a battle and I and I think [TS]

  reflecting back what I what I recognize [TS]

  is that I wasn't ever meant to be a [TS]

  member in that way and what I really [TS]

  missed was a mentor at some point early [TS]

  on saying don't look for what you're [TS]

  looking for in these things kid like [TS]

  you're not going to find it in punk rock [TS]

  or in the ralph nader's organization or [TS]

  in a corporate environment like there [TS]

  are some people who who don't belong and [TS]

  I guess as I say it out loud I'm [TS]

  realizing there isn't a mentor like that [TS]

  the people who don't belong discovered [TS]

  that and discover that path on their own [TS]

  and that it is that it sucks [TS]

  there's not many institutions that have [TS]

  half a dozen people like that in them [TS]

  right and it and it's only luck if i [TS]

  would have I was on a i was on a boat [TS]

  one time crossing from Morocco to italy [TS]

  and i was considering i was i was at a [TS]

  point in my life where I was considering [TS]

  giving it all away like abandoning my [TS]

  life and my history and moving [TS]

  transitioning into a new existence of [TS]

  like [TS]

  constant like actually following my own [TS]

  footsteps and in a way like like I was [TS]

  gonna walk i was gonna walk off this [TS]

  boat [TS]

  this is a long time before I walked [TS]

  across Europe but I was gonna walk off [TS]

  this boat and I was gonna walk into a [TS]

  new life where I did not have a past and [TS]

  I was not going back to America if I [TS]

  went to America again it was going to be [TS]

  that I went to America not back to [TS]

  America and I was going to become a [TS]

  citizen of the world or something I was [TS]

  sitting on the boat and I was really [TS]

  thinking about what it would what it [TS]

  would take to cut all those ties and I [TS]

  and I'm not constitutionally a tie [TS]

  cutter you know I I loved my family I [TS]

  would you stayed in touch with your [TS]

  family a hell of a lot more than must [TS]

  apply now to be last and and in a way [TS]

  like i am one of my characteristics is [TS]

  nostalgia I am defy I carry nostalgia [TS]

  Anna and a warm feeling for nostalgia [TS]

  around with me and it ended it and it's [TS]

  one of the things that keeps me from [TS]

  being truly a radical is that i nurture [TS]

  nostalgia in myself but I'm on this boat [TS]

  and i'm thinking i'm going to just I'm [TS]

  just gonna like do it i'm just gonna [TS]

  burn up I'm gonna burn my old life and [TS]

  I'm gonna walk off this boat on my walk [TS]

  into a new life and there was a guy on [TS]

  the boat who sat down you know who like [TS]

  sami from across the dining room and [TS]

  came over and sat down at my table and [TS]

  he looked like mike mills looks now [TS]

  she was an older guy great long gray [TS]

  hair and it was one of those weird [TS]

  encounters where a guy did sit down [TS]

  across the table and say what's going on [TS]

  with you man and I was like well I'm [TS]

  thinking about not going back and he was [TS]

  like I thought so i saw i saw that in [TS]

  your face and I was like what man like [TS]

  it really weird encounter and wait for [TS]

  the length of this ferry trip he SAT [TS]

  there and he was like do it [TS]

  don't go back do it you know you should [TS]

  and you'll never he can't know what the [TS]

  future holds but it's going to be [TS]

  amazing and you just need to do it and [TS]

  you know I'm am sitting there like are [TS]

  you wizard but but feeling so empowered [TS]

  by this guy's attention and I think I [TS]

  said some you know some version of like [TS]

  will you be my god can I come with you [TS]

  and he was like no no no that's not how [TS]

  it works you you go like I'm I'm on I'm [TS]

  on my own thing you you have to go and [TS]

  do your thing and I was like and I [TS]

  wanted to go with him I wanted to spend [TS]

  like a month at least please just take [TS]

  me home with you for a month and tell me [TS]

  more [TS]

  and you know the boat docked and I [TS]

  walked off the boat and I was like I'm [TS]

  done I'm not going back I'm not going [TS]

  back to America I'm not going back to [TS]

  I'm not going in Reverse but it but I [TS]

  didn't have a clear picture of what that [TS]

  meant i did it didn't take you know what [TS]

  I mean like it was a it was a [TS]

  hallucination and when when winter came [TS]

  and I got cold and I got hungry you know [TS]

  for five months after that i bought a [TS]

  ticket back to America food and water [TS]

  take it back to America like please take [TS]

  me back America um and that was a you [TS]

  know that was a moment that what that [TS]

  was a crossroads that I that I i went i [TS]

  took the road less traveled by and I [TS]

  went about a mile and a half up what up [TS]

  it and then I turn around I ran back to [TS]

  the crossroads and took the took the [TS]

  road more traveled by and that has made [TS]

  all the difference also allow I like [TS]

  have some follow-up I'm fine to stop [TS]

  right there that was great [TS]

  oh no I want I want to follow up [TS]

  everything is profound is that better I [TS]

  think I you see what frustrates me and [TS]

  it took me a long time to realize this [TS]

  I could have I could have called out [TS]

  some of the bullet points of what [TS]

  bothers me about people who proselytize [TS]

  are people who are evangelicals but if I [TS]

  had to summarize it in perhaps a [TS]

  slightly glib way it's that when you go [TS]

  to somebody you proselytize a point of [TS]

  view you seek them out you find a [TS]

  stranger and start talking to them about [TS]

  something arm on the one hand [TS]

  yeah obviously it matters what it is [TS]

  that you're talking about but you know [TS]

  there aren't that many people who [TS]

  haven't heard of Jesus right to live at [TS]

  least process i love it is on level [TS]

  right [TS]

  they've thought about not drinking today [TS]

  whatever it is but with good bad [TS]

  indifferent whatever it is as I said [TS]

  here today I think the thing that bugs [TS]

  me about the most is that the biggest [TS]

  takeaway is from someone who [TS]

  proselytizes if they're not really [TS]

  really awfully good at it and offer he [TS]

  made about it and the thing that makes [TS]

  it feel a little guilty I'll really [TS]

  across the board is that the impression [TS]

  you are left with is that if I join up i [TS]

  will become mostly an ineffective [TS]

  salesman for whatever this thing is [TS]

  because that's what this person is right [TS]

  person is really doing is its sales and [TS]

  they're not they're doing like entry [TS]

  level sales or something like that if [TS]

  you have any real questions are like [TS]

  let's go talk to my let's go talk to my [TS]

  manager [TS]

  yeah yeah and whether that's in an [TS]

  institution or whatever wherever you [TS]

  decide to hang your hat beware of any [TS]

  place that where you're not allowed to [TS]

  ask good questions and but thatthat's [TS]

  thatthat's i think in the end i say that [TS]

  because like i don't think i would have [TS]

  put it that way I wouldn't at all man [TS]

  you don't tell me what to do would be [TS]

  more white my way of looking at up and [TS]

  out today just in terms of the [TS]

  impression in that case you got this guy [TS]

  who came up to on a boat and was kind of [TS]

  not the opposite of that but you know [TS]

  unless he was doing some extremely [TS]

  advanced reverse psychology [TS]

  it's pretty different from hey have you [TS]

  heard about gravity can we talk about [TS]

  gravity or you know have you thought [TS]

  about cleaning your ears you know you [TS]

  know how many people die each year from [TS]

  that clean their ears [TS]

  there's a simple solution you got [TS]

  someplace better to be I didn't think so [TS]

  it's like you know they're not they're [TS]

  not at the skullenbones club trying to [TS]

  recruit people for this there at the [TS]

  station there at the commons there there [TS]

  at all the places [TS]

  where people are vulnerable and and [TS]

  looking for answers that essentially [TS]

  knowing it and and but the problem is [TS]

  it's part of it is a journalist in a [TS]

  branding problem i don't know part of it [TS]

  is that what you come across you come [TS]

  across as a desperate salesman and [TS]

  that's not what anybody wants to be [TS]

  yeah nobody wants to be a Salesman [TS]

  nobody wakes up going i want to be a [TS]

  Salesman or manager going to be Cowboys [TS]

  and astronauts and I account person [TS]

  destro bring individuals and I'm gonna [TS]

  start pretty cool it's a pretty good [TS]

  take on it but to this day you know [TS]

  that's why man I like i'm not i have not [TS]

  that it matters but i have a panhandler [TS]

  that i sponsor in my mind my program is [TS]

  I i pick a panhandler every time at a [TS]

  given time and if the person disappears [TS]

  for whatever reason i picked somebody [TS]

  else but i will be always you one person [TS]

  when IC make him five bucks that's my [TS]

  entire approach I don't give anybody [TS]

  else anybody out Girl Scouts money i [TS]

  don't like begging i don't like going [TS]

  places and having people stop me and my [TS]

  daughter walking down the street to ask [TS]

  me something to tell me something to I [TS]

  don't want to i don't i don't think i [TS]

  don't want to participate in that they [TS]

  don't need to be just need a fan belt to [TS]

  get their car we have a job interview my [TS]

  sons in the car [TS]

  yeah I so I mean I hope that doesn't [TS]

  sound dad well you know what fuckin [TS]

  medal don't care about that at all times [TS]

  exactly that's exactly right and the [TS]

  thing about you know what what what I [TS]

  have reflected back on that Mike Mills [TS]

  guy on the boat if my senses my senses [TS]

  that he was like me he did recognize me [TS]

  because everyone so I'll see somebody [TS]

  out in the world and i will recognize [TS]

  them as like me it's michael's a time [TS]

  traveler it-it-it Mike there was [TS]

  actually a real mike mills at the time [TS]

  so if this was future Mike Mills coming [TS]

  back he would have been like most [TS]

  extreme he would have been risking a lot [TS]

  yeah tell the space-time continuum but [TS]

  the pretty captain I care about that and [TS]

  if there was a guy that's gonna fit that [TS]

  bill but uh but I feel like what this [TS]

  guy what what was in fact happening [TS]

  there was that this guy recognized me as [TS]

  him and now he was trying to give me the [TS]

  advice he wish somebody had given him [TS]

  she hadn't you know he was no more [TS]

  off-the-grid than I was he was on the [TS]

  same fucking ferryboat from X to Y but [TS]

  he was trying to he was trying to make a [TS]

  difference in somebody's life and and I [TS]

  think about that a lot [TS]

  now when I see people and I try not to [TS]

  give people advice that i wish i had [TS]

  taken you know I tried to I try to eat [TS]

  I'm it wrong you really fuck it up [TS]

  you really do and anything away like you [TS]

  don't know what was going to happen [TS]

  because you didn't do it either like [TS]

  you're you are try it's a kind of as a [TS]

  way of trying to live vicariously and he [TS]

  he walked away from that encounter he [TS]

  was like I fucking made a difference [TS]

  today and I set that kid loose on the [TS]

  world right is it was a self-involved [TS]

  I'll speak for myself too self-involved [TS]

  version of pseudo time travel where you [TS]

  wish you could have that conversation [TS]

  with yourself when you could have used [TS]

  it at the right time the right person [TS]

  the right words to write everything all [TS]

  the stars align and something happens [TS]

  and you avoid wasting five years of your [TS]

  life but it's impossible you can't do [TS]

  that for you [TS]

  you can't do that for them right and and [TS]

  and the fact is nobody knows what would [TS]

  have happened if I had if that guy had [TS]

  when he was 22 just gone off the grid [TS]

  and weeks when we don't know what [TS]

  would've happened if I had because [TS]

  neither one of us did and it might have [TS]

  been it might not be great i mean i [TS]

  dunno guys who have gone off the grid [TS]

  and it isn't great for for them or for [TS]

  the world so those protos profound [TS]

  moments you know what what what that did [TS]

  was it gave me 15 years of another thing [TS]

  that i felt like i had failed you know [TS]

  like that guy get that guy gave me [TS]

  everything I needed and I should have [TS]

  just walked off that boat and into a new [TS]

  life and I chickened out for months [TS]

  later I chickened out and I'm [TS]

  oh really really you really feel that [TS]

  way well no i don't now but I did give [TS]

  yourself a white ribbon for that one [TS]

  I did I did give myself a white ribbon [TS]

  and and you know that because I was [TS]

  always that was that era where I felt [TS]

  like if you are using money if you are [TS]

  using human money you are a sellout if [TS]

  you if you need to buy your food at a [TS]

  store you are not truly alive and the [TS]

  only way you can think that way is if [TS]

  you are if you do not understand [TS]

  anything you know but i didn't [TS]

  understand anything and I did believe [TS]

  that that transact that I would that [TS]

  somehow transactions where thing I [TS]

  couldn't participate in that I had to I [TS]

  had to find a new currency and my [TS]

  currency was going to be song but you [TS]

  selling an angry Buddhist monk where [TS]

  that is that the concert kind of long [TS]

  not that inaccurate kinda monk we got [TS]

  your bowl and you have to go and beg for [TS]

  your food each day but you're not [TS]

  allowed to like squirrel anything away [TS]

  yet to start fresh every day right [TS]

  empty bowl every morning except I was [TS]

  angry defeating the entire purpose of [TS]

  exercise that's wrong 7000 reg is a [TS]

  purposeless exercise so realizing that's [TS]

  wrong 18a hope somebody's writing down [TS]

  all these rungs we really we've got a [TS]

  lot of runs hand comment caught [TS]

  retroactive continuity we might need to [TS]

  go back and adjust some of the numbering [TS]

  a little bit but there are five or six [TS]

  seven LRH did this with all the OT [TS]

  levels [TS]

  yes you do for a long time being he [TS]

  can't believe there was a time when they [TS]

  thought ot3 was as high as you can go [TS]

  I cannot have both events and then then [TS]

  all the sudden he's got OT levels like [TS]

  like like crazy go nuts [TS]

  well are they are the subsets of OT 30 [TS]

  or 10 23 for all I think I'm sorry [TS]

  subset a oh no I think I think I'm Cruz [TS]

  might be a seven [TS]

  yeah i think five weeks i'm trying to [TS]

  remember excited [TS]

  that book last year or so but i think [TS]

  four threes when shit gets real [TS]

  yeah i think i think for it maybe [TS]

  there's the one with the dark night of [TS]

  the soul one is the one where they like [TS]

  you realize how horrible everything is [TS]

  and then you get into the Xenu after [TS]

  that but Ron's runs are friendly [TS]

  everybody loves a ladder i like to climb [TS]

  yeah i like to climb the thing about me [TS]

  as i'm still climbing [TS]

  I'm still standing after all these years [TS]

  the connectors bother you can actually [TS]

  get [TS]