Roderick on the Line

Ep. 105: "Hippie Clean"


  this episode of Roderick on the line is [TS]

  sponsored by Squarespace the all-in-one [TS]

  platform that makes it fast and easy to [TS]

  create your own professional website [TS]

  portfolio or online store for a free [TS]

  trial and ten percent off visit [TS] and enter the offer code [TS]

  supertrain at checkout a better web [TS]

  starts with your website as you do [TS]

  [Music] [TS]

  hello hi John hi Merlin how's it going [TS]

  bloop beep boop boop boop man [TS]

  communication is complicated hurt her so [TS]

  John what are you up to these days [TS]

  oh you know just students and cleaning [TS]

  around the house who I not really very [TS]

  good at staying on top of it and then it [TS]

  gets than the house gets dirty and then [TS]

  it right then I really don't want to [TS]

  deal with it and then house just keeps [TS]

  getting dirtier and dirtier and dirtier [TS]

  so so too it's spring cleaning day but i [TS]

  also have to go to portland today so i [TS]

  can't really in a blob [TS]

  yeah you know me or her mom back and I [TS]

  right yes [TS]

  sheesh being a housewife is not easy [TS]

  the grass is always greener other parts [TS]

  of the house that you enjoy cleaning [TS]

  interesting well you know you know the [TS]

  problem with me is that I do not have a [TS]

  clear delineation in my mind between [TS]

  cleaning and organizing haha hall so I [TS]

  meet people all the time who described [TS]

  this so not all the time but i have i've [TS]

  had it described to me that there are [TS]

  people who are neat but dirty and people [TS]

  who are clean a messy [TS]

  hmm and I think that my instinct is on [TS]

  the clean but messy side I don't like a [TS]

  bunch i don't like dirt on things i want [TS]

  you know I'm kind of a little fastidious [TS]

  even about like scum but there's a mess [TS]

  all over the place right and that is the [TS]

  nature of your of your work as a [TS]

  collector i have to imagine that's right [TS]

  collector and organizer and a and a and [TS]

  a BB stacker but then but then we have [TS]

  it we have in my little plan here a term [TS]

  called the hippie clean which is you [TS]

  know if you're ever been to it if you've [TS]

  ever been to the home of a married happy [TS]

  couple like it's particularly a [TS]

  middle-aged or late middle-aged married [TS]

  happy couple houses is straightened but [TS]

  if you look down by the floorboards you [TS]

  look in the corners it's just like crime [TS]

  of a thousand years [TS]

  yes spiderwebs and stuff you know and [TS]

  just like just like that kind of greasy [TS]

  dirt that's just been it's been kind of [TS]

  like the pressed into the floorboards [TS]

  pressed into all the joints and and dust [TS]

  bunnies everywhere it's a hippie clean [TS]

  the house is straight like things are [TS]

  organized things are you know it's not [TS]

  like there's that there aren't soup cans [TS]

  step out of months but it's a hippie [TS]

  clean they have dogs in the house [TS]

  yeah one time i was in england and i [TS]

  stayed in a woman's house there and when [TS]

  she had said ducks in the house up she [TS]

  left the back door open and I was [TS]

  sitting in the living room and like some [TS]

  ducks walked in i guess being kind of [TS]

  pleasant at a place i'm visiting it was [TS]

  very it was very traditionally English [TS]

  because they really they really prize [TS]

  their eccentrics the Ducks were [TS]

  embarrassed and like shanking she was [TS]

  hidden [TS]

  she was a classic English eccentric and [TS]

  she left she had ducks in the house and [TS]

  I I mean I approved right but it wasn't [TS]

  something I was gonna have to clean so [TS]

  anyway my house i prefer to have it be [TS]

  be like hygienic but then stuff all over [TS]

  the place but the problem is when i [TS]

  start cleaning [TS]

  I immediately start organizing uh-huh [TS]

  and then i get off the track i get off [TS]

  the trail because i realize i don't have [TS]

  enough I'll folders and then i say i [TS]

  don't want to buy file folders at the [TS]

  office depot because they are new file [TS]

  their modern construction and their [TS]

  flimsy and they are no good so I need to [TS]

  find some vintage file folders i know [TS]

  exactly which doctor if you're lucky [TS]

  enough to run across a box of old file [TS]

  folders at a good will never go back [TS]

  boy I'll tell you so then it's like well [TS]

  I guess Mac pitches one of those you [TS]

  know the other day I was at the goodwill [TS]

  I found another typewriter that I had to [TS]

  have but you know now i have like now I [TS]

  have [TS]

  well I'm i don't quite have a collection [TS]

  of old typewriters but I definitely have [TS]

  a handful [TS]

  let's say let's say plus or minus five [TS]

  here good for the environment John and [TS]

  and i love this typewriter it's [TS]

  beautiful but then I was like oh I need [TS]

  some i'm not going to use my old paper [TS]

  in this i need new paper to go with this [TS]

  so I'm scanning the goodwill scanning [TS]

  scanning can i find this beautiful blue [TS]

  paper that was meant it's like a heavy [TS]

  bond it was meant to be the front page [TS]

  of a other report like it's blue kind of [TS]

  like a little bit it's almost cardstock [TS]

  e the entire box of it that was probably [TS]

  fifty dollars in 1965 and it's like [TS]

  ninety-nine cents and I said you know [TS]

  what I'm gonna buy this I'm gonna buy [TS]

  this and i'm just going to use it like [TS]

  Merlin use file cards i'm going to write [TS]

  one word on one of these beautiful [TS]

  50-year old pieces of paper and I'm just [TS]

  going to crumple it up and throw it out [TS]

  the window because i can't because fuck [TS]

  the world [TS]

  [Music] [TS]

  yeah the hippie clean i never heard that [TS]

  term i like it and i am sympathetic in a [TS]

  previous life I live with a person [TS]

  inherit once [TS]

  mm and we we were neither of us [TS]

  particularly tidy people but one way [TS]

  that we could make ourselves kind of [TS]

  clean the house was to have a party so [TS]

  you plan a party and then you have to [TS]

  clean the house [TS]

  YC right it's kind of you know like some [TS]

  people like to make deadlines for [TS]

  themselves and that like motivates them [TS]

  to do stuff and this worked like at [TS]

  least once a year we clean the house [TS]

  because we have a party but clean the [TS]

  house in advance of the party or you [TS]

  clean the house after the bar no no the [TS]

  idea was people are coming over want the [TS]

  place to be nicely gonna clean house and [TS]

  and like over time I mean you know [TS]

  people change and i think things really [TS]

  kind of deteriorated with our with our [TS]

  feelings about the house and but there [TS]

  was one particular party that's kind of [TS]

  famous amongst my friends where we did [TS]

  two things that were a little bit novel [TS]

  one was that all of the stuff that was [TS]

  all over the place like you know the [TS]

  accumulation of like boxes and stuff and [TS]

  things well do I we quickly put sheets [TS]

  over all this things like it was an [TS]

  English manor that we're leaving for a [TS]

  season [TS]

  haha but the real money shot we took all [TS]

  of the dirty dishes and all the plates [TS]

  all the glasses all the silverware we [TS]

  put in a box put it in the Attic right [TS]

  and then we didn't get it after that we [TS]

  just left it up there o.o just set up [TS]

  all the yeah that's right i'm stressed [TS]

  and we're so now I kind of a perfect [TS]

  analogy for from my life i think i'm [TS]

  sitting here sitting right now I'm [TS]

  looking let's see how many boxes can i [TS]

  see i have the ic3 milk crates a like [TS]

  four of those cardboard legal archive [TS]

  boxes [TS]

  whoo that's good that's a good box is a [TS]

  costly box but it's a strongbox an [TS]

  icebox I have a box here of of [TS]

  forty-fives not pistols but but records [TS]

  that's a different i have a different [TS]

  place for about three or an insert i [TS]

  have a bunch of like shoeboxes full of [TS]

  stuff i'm looking around and i thought i [TS]

  thought i was going to be able to count [TS]

  for you the number of boxes i can see [TS]

  from where I'm sitting that are full of [TS]

  like projects that at one point we're [TS]

  screwed across the floor and then got [TS]

  all collected and put into a box for [TS]

  later [TS]

  I thought I was gonna be able to count [TS]

  the number of boxes but then I realized [TS]

  as I as I turn around you're too many [TS]

  boxes to count John I got boxes on boxes [TS]

  on boxes I got a box over here just full [TS]

  of wallets that check your privilege [TS]

  that Boggs you're like I see a box for [TS]

  Waldo the ultimate first world problem [TS]

  you have an entire box full of what's [TS]

  have a box full of water i have a out [TS]

  now here's one that I don't I really [TS]

  don't know what to do with I have a huge [TS]

  crate full of slides [TS]

  ah now what do you do with that i'm sure [TS]

  you can throw them away [TS]

  you can't throw away i have a slide [TS]

  projector i have carousels i could put [TS]

  all the sly [TS]

  I could do the thing where you sit for a [TS]

  week and put slides and carousels and [TS]

  put your slide projector up and watch [TS]

  slides but then then what do you do [TS]

  something you can I could ever there's a [TS]

  room in my house I could have just full [TS]

  of slides [TS]

  yeah i know you probably are aware of [TS]

  this but you know if you find a box that [TS]

  looks like it's particularly good you [TS]

  know you can send those offering them [TS]

  scanned yeah but I mean that at what at [TS]

  what cost [TS]

  hmm it's not really it's not cheap to [TS]

  have that done [TS]

  have you ever thought of becoming [TS]

  someone's thesis you would be i can just [TS]

  think of probably half a dozen people [TS]

  who are probably casting about should [TS]

  read about social media and what about [TS]

  Martin Bormann know what if somebody [TS]

  were to turn you into their thesis [TS]

  project imagine some smarty from u-dub [TS]

  comes out there probably a young woman [TS]

  will come out there and and just and [TS]

  work on you like convinces him to is [TS]

  going somewhere different than expected [TS]

  i like that at one point recently I [TS]

  realized that I had too many baseball [TS]

  hats that for [TS]

  I mean I could wear different baseball [TS]

  hat every day for a year and there's no [TS]

  I can't just if you put baseball hats in [TS]

  a drawer in a box or not in a closet he [TS]

  you don't see them you don't think about [TS]

  him you're not like oh where's that one [TS]

  baseball hat you know you have to kind [TS]

  of have baseball hats out so you [TS]

  remember them and so that you wear them [TS]

  and I hit on this great idea which is i [TS]

  bought some rope and I attach the rope [TS]

  to the end of a the end of the curtain [TS]

  rod and just let it hang down and then I [TS]

  found some very nicely made vintage [TS]

  clothes pins and I have closed pinned my [TS]

  baseball hats to this rope so that on [TS]

  either side of the window hanging from [TS]

  each side of the curtain rod is like a [TS]

  little little chain of baseball hats [TS]

  that's clever and it's very and i find [TS]

  it very appealing now i think i think [TS]

  this is a case where if a stranger came [TS]

  into the house the stranger might look [TS]

  at that and say weird or say someone [TS]

  special little bright lights different [TS]

  this is making me very uncomfortable [TS]

  it's like it's kind of Silence of the [TS]

  Lambs meets somebody's grandma but I [TS]

  can't see I can't see the world like [TS]

  they see it now i can only see the world [TS]

  like I see it [TS]

  hmm and for me this like a decorative [TS]

  element framing the windows in in like [TS]

  chains of baseball hats is very nice [TS]

  it's I i I'm looking at it right now and [TS]

  I'm I'm just very proud of myself [TS]

  this is part of it a space issue because [TS]

  I mean like for example a typewriter it [TS]

  takes up a lot of space you would need [TS]

  some special shelving for that or [TS]

  something you don't have a typewriter [TS]

  closet this episode of rock on the line [TS]

  is sponsored by Squarespace the only one [TS]

  platform that makes it fast and easy to [TS]

  create your own professional website [TS]

  portfolio or online store [TS]

  believe me John and I know where we [TS]

  speak we have hosted Roderick on the [TS]

  line with squarespace since the very [TS]

  beginning episode 0 and they've been [TS]

  great [TS]

  every step of the way Squarespace makes [TS]

  this whole process so simple they offer [TS]

  an easy drag-and-drop interface got [TS]

  beautiful free templates that you can [TS]

  tweak to suit your needs all the designs [TS]

  are responsive so they look great on [TS]

  every device if you do get stuck [TS]

  Squarespace offers 24 7 support through [TS]

  dedicated teams based in New York and [TS]

  doubling Squarespace plan started eight [TS]

  dollars a month and include a free [TS]

  domain name if you sign up for a year [TS]

  which i highly recommend also every plan [TS]

  comes with the ability to create your [TS]

  own online store so yeah you can sell [TS]

  the stuff you make right from your very [TS]

  own site so whether you're a podcaster [TS]

  musician writer photographer what have [TS]

  you please go check out [TS]

  and tell them you heard about it on [TS]

  Roderick on the line in fact get a free [TS]

  trial plus ten percent of any package [TS]

  you choose by using the special offer [TS]

  code supertrain when you check out our [TS]

  thanks to squarespace for supporting rod [TS]

  online we could not do it without the [TS]

  court six to one of the things one of [TS]

  the reasons that for a long time I [TS]

  wanted to have a downtown loft one of [TS]

  these one of these lofts with like [TS]

  30-foot ceilings now at one point I did [TS]

  live in a loft like that 44 46 years I [TS]

  lived in a loft with with really high [TS]

  ceilings this when you when you peed in [TS]

  imbecile yeah right when I what I that [TS]

  the lot that loft did not have a [TS]

  bathroom [TS]

  right let's just say that but as an [TS]

  adult I've always kind of wanted to live [TS]

  in a loft that was properly done that [TS]

  had a kitchen and a bathroom and one of [TS]

  those enormous walls was just shelves [TS]

  all the way to the ceiling with a with a [TS]

  ladder on wheels and on that set of [TS]

  shelves i imagined that they would be [TS]

  typewriters and there would be cowboy [TS]

  boots and there would be places for LPS [TS]

  a look at been against happy right right [TS]

  it would be it would absolutely look [TS]

  like a like a clicker daggers burgers [TS]

  biggerstaff and pits could get started [TS]

  Slappy's um and and yet all of those [TS]

  things would not just be like a [TS]

  tchotchkes picked out by a set designer [TS]

  for a theme restaurant they would be [TS]

  things that were part of my life and [TS]

  that you know i would actually go up [TS]

  sometimes and take that typewriter down [TS]

  and use it i have a cursive typewriter [TS]

  how sweet it is pretty nice but I do not [TS]

  live in a in a lot for the giant wall [TS]

  that looks like a Bennigan's i live in a [TS]

  an old farmhouse and it's much harder to [TS]

  have everything on display and not look [TS]

  like well like a crazy person and that [TS]

  is something I I fight against every [TS]

  single day better just keep it in box [TS]

  its give it the boxes stacked around [TS]

  around the living room up in my face [TS]

  fuck apple so come upstairs downstairs i [TS]

  want to show you my hats now the problem [TS]

  lately as I got it in my head that I was [TS]

  gonna start being stuff boy is you need [TS]

  a project I've never done it before [TS]

  uh-huh but i but I started to feel like [TS]

  look I've gotten rid of all the trash [TS]

  all that's left is them is good stuff i [TS]

  got i don't want to cut into the meat [TS]

  and bone here but if I if I was selling [TS]

  it in an online marketplace where people [TS]

  could really that they were where I [TS]

  would be appealing to a wide audience [TS]

  that really appreciated the value of [TS]

  some of these things you might be [TS]

  providing somebody with the one piece [TS]

  they needed to complete their collection [TS]

  thank you think it's a gift [TS]

  precisely so [TS]

  what i did was i I went on ebay and i [TS]

  looked and i was like i don't know i [TS]

  don't understand how to operate this [TS]

  this is a this this is confusing and so [TS]

  I stopped looking at ebay but I did [TS]

  start compiling things that i was going [TS]

  to sell on ebay and so now right in the [TS]

  center of my living room there's like [TS]

  five big boxes of stuff that that I need [TS]

  to get out of the house because if I [TS]

  don't eventually I'm going to forget [TS]

  what's in the boxes and I'm gonna walk [TS]

  past them on dams and say what's in [TS]

  those boxes and then I'm gonna look at [TS]

  him and it's gonna seem like a treasure [TS]

  hunt and I'm gonna pull all the stuff [TS]

  out of the boxes and be like oh this old [TS]

  thing [TS]

  why was I ever getting rid of this huh [TS]

  and then all the stuff is going to come [TS]

  back out and it's gonna all go back into [TS]

  circulation and that's not what i want i [TS]

  chose some things there in some boxes [TS]

  it's time for them to go [TS]

  yeah it's not one simple thing that [TS]

  you're doing here it is a part of a [TS]

  larger thought technology time to do the [TS]

  getting rid of it is part of it to have [TS]

  it out of the ecosystem and that kind of [TS]

  makes everything else that's in your [TS]

  collection all the more valuable [TS]

  that's right these are the things that [TS]

  survived the colon hmm i went around [TS]

  tonight and i dabbed a little bit of [TS]

  lambs blood on the front door of [TS]

  everything I had [TS]

  guess who uses tape any man accept this [TS]

  is what you need a master student in [TS]

  there John somebody to come in there and [TS]

  catalog all this on a computer right [TS]

  somebody that's doing a thesis I don't [TS]

  want to just get rid of this stuff i [TS]

  also want to tell the story of it that's [TS]

  also part of the ebay idea was that I [TS]

  would be able to tell the story of the [TS]

  thing on ebay and then somebody could [TS]

  appreciate the story and by the thing [TS]

  and say like I didn't just buy this [TS]

  thing i also bought the story that goes [TS]

  with it but if I had somebody that was [TS]

  really that was getting college credit [TS]

  for that everybody wins [TS]

  yeah I've been attracted to the idea of [TS]

  those services that will put stuff on [TS]

  ebay for you because I mean and not for [TS]

  like heirloom quality typewriters or [TS]

  anything necessarily but you know [TS]

  something that's like slightly more than [TS]

  that [TS]

  tangled USB cable and slightly less than [TS]

  like an heirloom Underwood curse off but [TS]

  there's that stuff in between where [TS]

  you're like just think like you know [TS]

  even if I don't make a lot of money off [TS]

  of this it'll be out of here [TS]

  I won't have to have a yard sale which [TS]

  is incredibly undignified the worst [TS]

  oh I every time we do that I swear I'll [TS]

  never do it again and I think it's stuck [TS]

  the last thing we started with stars [TS]

  people with the width and people come up [TS]

  and say I'll give you a dollar for this [TS]

  a dollar-for-dollar County yard sales [TS]

  you've been going to know you get people [TS]

  out there I mean you know this is a [TS]

  whole business this is a whole racket [TS]

  people to where they come out you say [TS]

  okay come out and 8 a.m. on saturday no [TS]

  early birds as people there at six [TS]

  o'clock looking in your mail slot trying [TS]

  to figure out what you go [TS]

  ah as they figure it's going to be USB [TS]

  cables but but there might be like [TS]

  pearls that we didn't notice her [TS]

  grandfather's old omega constellation [TS]

  yes that's watch incidents [TS]

  yes exactly and and then they want to [TS]

  use the bathroom the you know what I [TS]

  mean they come in they're touching [TS]

  everything and they don't know [TS]

  everything they want and nickel maybe [TS]

  and to me like that that like that the [TS]

  coup de Gras so I having somebody come [TS]

  in and just take all that stuff away [TS]

  it's like calling a hauling service but [TS]

  there's very few things like that i find [TS]

  more fulfilling and calm Holland guy [TS]

  hauling guy it's real simple give him a [TS]

  hundred fifty bucks and he fills the bed [TS]

  of a truck and he didn't care what it is [TS]

  and I don't know where cuz he might just [TS]

  drop it off on the next block but you [TS]

  know what the only creepy thing about it [TS]

  is he does look through the bags as he's [TS]

  putting them on the structure see if he [TS]

  wants to make sure you're not throwing [TS]

  any pearls [TS]

  well obviously i see i told myself it's [TS]

  because he wants to make sure that [TS]

  there's no paint and batteries [TS]

  alright is a good citizen but I think [TS]

  ultimately yeah just wants to use to [TS]

  touch my stuff [TS]

  the thing is that all those guys all the [TS]

  junk guys in the band the the garbageman [TS]

  you know they all have collections at [TS]

  home of other people's photo albums and [TS]

  like a like other people's homemade porn [TS]

  sure I mean that's why you get that's [TS]

  why you become a junkman talked about [TS]

  this then we had a friend who worked at [TS]

  the the drugstore and everybody who does [TS]

  any used to be back in the day back when [TS]

  you know go to the local [TS]

  drugstore to get your film processed as [TS]

  you do and everybody who worked there [TS]

  had a book [TS]

  oh yeah you know where they may double [TS]

  prints of the how you kidding me [TS]

  the terrible terrible homemade porn want [TS]

  to keep the one to trade pictures 24 [TS]

  exposures of the local news lady [TS]

  yeah haha a friend of Mines dad used to [TS]

  bring a roll a week Gail Syrians from [TS]

  the local NBC station [TS]

  justjust pictures of her on TV oh you're [TS]

  kidding [TS]

  no uh-uh [TS]

  yuck yeah but isn't that funny though [TS]

  because like what does that say about me [TS]

  that when i call the junk guy and it's [TS]

  like I want to have still have some [TS]

  attachment to my stuff and like have it [TS]

  be private when you get away [TS]

  look in my bag so that's what I trash [TS]

  that's one of the reasons that I don't [TS]

  go to yard sales because over the years [TS]

  you know you go to yard sales and it [TS]

  seems like it seems like all that's for [TS]

  sale in those things are like supportive [TS]

  undergarments and you know what it'd be [TS]

  like the foundation where the recently [TS]

  deceased yeah like you're poking through [TS]

  it and I feel like like she eats selling [TS]

  sheet since no nose no stick is long [TS]

  enough to get me far enough away from [TS]

  this stuff [TS]

  poke it's just like Oh what is that is [TS]

  that an ankle brace is it cut all my can [TS]

  add hot water bottle he sells the stuff [TS]

  that's an orthopedic piggy bank who buys [TS]

  it like no thanks [TS]

  so I stay away from that you know that [TS]

  people ask me all the time like to go to [TS]

  estate sales [TS]

  it's so depressing do I want to do I [TS]

  want to line up and fight like like [TS]

  brassy women with big round glasses for [TS]

  beanie babies [TS]

  no I all of this is beneath my dignity [TS]

  I'm not wanted to see his children sit [TS]

  around looking at their watch [TS]

  yeah I don't want to paw through [TS]

  somebody's house like I don't care about [TS]

  their this weird part about an estate [TS]

  sale we did that with my grandmother [TS]

  passed away in 1987 and I'm so glad I [TS]

  wasn't there but we have the end and if [TS]

  you've been through this process with [TS]

  people but sure you have you had lots of [TS]

  people in your family [TS]

  I don't know how it goes with you but [TS]

  like you go through you go and pick out [TS]

  all the stuff you want and the first [TS]

  time you do one of these dead relative [TS]

  things eat you way over x and y [TS]

  I ended up with all this like cheap [TS]

  furniture from the forties that I just [TS]

  diagonal is for it it was in James I [TS]

  can't we can't get rid of this [TS]

  oh my god that goes away pretty well [TS]

  after about four hours [TS]

  photo album blom photo blog but like [TS]

  who's gonna hold all this stuff but then [TS]

  you write to come to the point that [TS]

  freaks me out that is how it's like a [TS]

  little it's like a dead person museum [TS]

  for a day and everybody comes to [TS]

  everything all the silverware is like [TS]

  it's not fancy is like still in the [TS]

  drawers [TS]

  I yeah I mean it's real creepy wasn't [TS]

  going to like pick out which foundation [TS]

  where you want like right out of their [TS]

  drawers [TS]

  yeah no no i mean the the the amazing [TS]

  ones that I've been two are like these [TS]

  ones where no grandad collected swords [TS]

  ok I'll go look to this guy's sword [TS]

  collection but but just like this was [TS]

  grandma and grandpa's house and they [TS]

  never throw anything away [TS]

  come and we've now put price tags on [TS]

  everything like sorry i would much [TS]

  rather go to the goodwill where the last [TS]

  ultimate drags of that sale finally got [TS]

  dumped off and somebody in a smock [TS]

  sorted it and and put a colored tag on [TS]

  it and it sat on the shelves and was [TS]

  touched by 1000 people much rather have [TS]

  that experience like that I like that [TS]

  section i'm into goodwill in years but [TS]

  used to be is to go a lot to a lot of [TS]

  you know three stores run by charities [TS]

  and they're always be one section of [TS]

  very large section of wooden souvenirs [TS]

  that people bought on vacation so you [TS]

  can look a little coconut guy or [TS]

  something with googly eyes and hold pens [TS]

  it's strange to me that they would [TS]

  dedicate floor space to that stuff or [TS]

  something made out of popsicle sticks or [TS]

  something like that [TS]

  yeah right where where it's like a [TS]

  souvenir but and it's only value is as a [TS]

  souvenir but experience that you had [TS]

  firsthand and yet people are buying them [TS]

  secondhand like it's a garbage thing it [TS]

  was garbage when they bought it but at [TS]

  least they could remember that time they [TS]

  took a vacation dsm [TS]

  right well and increasingly now one of [TS]

  the things that happened a few years ago [TS]

  and i think it was exacerbated when the [TS]

  economy crashed was that a lot of people [TS]

  started shopping a good wills a lot of [TS]

  lot of normals that never would that [TS]

  that would have thought it was kind of [TS]

  too low class started going and then of [TS]

  course the collect the collector side of [TS]

  the equation just keeps growing and [TS]

  growing and growing and so Goodwill's [TS]

  started well they all bumped up their [TS]

  prices about six or seven years ago so [TS]

  thing that had four years have been a [TS]

  dollar ninety-nine all of a sudden was [TS]

  1999 right and it took a there was a [TS]

  period of adjustment when I was like I [TS]

  will never pay 1999 for this party [TS]

  started Washington and pressing them [TS]

  selling the good stuff to hipsters in [TS]

  New York and not you [TS]

  that's the other thing they all open [TS]

  this little store within a store where [TS]

  they sell the good stuff right and I [TS]

  love going into that just because it's a [TS]

  glimpse behind the curtain into people's [TS]

  minds of first of all what is good stuff [TS]

  what is valuable and so much of it is [TS]

  this stuff that you're talking about the [TS]

  hot the slightly higher grade of like [TS]

  collectible commemorative plates [TS]

  Bicentennial stuff you know like like [TS]

  that wasn't much of that is rare [TS]

  anybody who anybody who ever goes to [TS]

  Germany has to buy a Stein and then they [TS]

  bring the stein home and they realize [TS]

  that a Stein is an inefficient way of [TS]

  drinking a beverage [TS]

  you don't need a lid because we've [TS]

  conquered the fly problem for the most [TS]

  part or whatever the fuck what we'll do [TS]

  whatever reason a Stein has a lid [TS]

  it's not it's not handy anymore so the [TS]

  stein ends up at the thrift store a [TS]

  thrift store people think oh this is [TS]

  this is a couple to live this is nice [TS]

  and they put it in the special area so I [TS]

  don't do that special area I'm not even [TS]

  looking for I don't I definitely do not [TS]

  expect to find granddad's omega [TS]

  constellation we'ii certainly I mean [TS]

  just in the times I've gone the last [TS]

  dozen years [TS]

  certainly don't find those paydays like [TS]

  you used to [TS]

  we could go like whoa this is somebody's [TS]

  whole like pretty cool record collection [TS]

  is here is right for you knowing oh my [TS]

  gosh they have all these like Motown 45 [TS]

  or something like that you just don't [TS]

  see I don't think you see that anymore [TS]

  you don't you have to have the really [TS]

  Ratchet back what youth what you think [TS]

  is a big score you know in the old days [TS]

  I remember [TS]

  yeah right you go in and you'd be like [TS]

  oh there's all these different sixties [TS]

  Levi's in here that's blue folder covers [TS]

  i'm only gonna get the sixties Levi's [TS]

  that don't have any holes in the knees [TS]

  you know every one of those pairs of [TS]

  jeans is worth 20 grand now and at the [TS]

  time I was like are now these leave all [TS]

  this got an oil stain on the cuff and [TS]

  yeah now exactly it's like i found the [TS]

  blue paper I this is like look at these [TS]

  stickers i used to buy vintage office [TS]

  supplies ever any time that I saw like a [TS]

  bunch of something cool like it just bc [TS]

  like how the world used to be and [TS]

  offices and you know those things those [TS]

  are probably i'm thinking of like large [TS]

  like medical office file folders that [TS]

  way like a couple ounces apiece like big [TS]

  heavy things that were meant to be in [TS]

  heavy cabinets with heavy information [TS]

  about heavy cancers and like and you can [TS]

  just use gobble that stuff up your car [TS]

  with it i used to work at a at a stock [TS]

  brokerage and the the brokerage had two [TS]

  floors in an office building downtown [TS]

  and then there were another two floors [TS]

  somewhere kind of high up in the [TS]

  building that were just given over to [TS]

  those cardboard boxes full of heavy [TS]

  files and i would get set up there all [TS]

  the time like take take this you know [TS]

  take this palette of of files up and up [TS]

  to deep storage and you think about mean [TS]

  imagining all the hoarders who have an [TS]

  attic full of unwashed dishes that they [TS]

  took up there during a party and never [TS]

  got down [TS]

  but now think about all the office all [TS]

  the companies all the law firms and [TS]

  stock brokerages and banks that are more [TS]

  than a hundred years old over that have [TS]

  those that have that space already [TS]

  earmarked for that and no one has ever [TS]

  said why are we paying to heat this [TS]

  warehouse full of paper just like all [TS]

  like copies of correspondence right [TS]

  track triplicate copies of reception [TS]

  thing that's not talking about stuff [TS]

  like for financial records that you have [TS]

  to keep that stuff you know what I mean [TS]

  just like that you always had a copy of [TS]

  everything because that's just had [TS]

  that's what you had to do receipts right [TS]

  yeah the while you were out the little [TS]

  pink while you were out and so you know [TS]

  you think about like this one this one [TS]

  office building and the more I think [TS]

  about it the brokerage was on like the [TS]

  tenth and eleventh floor but the [TS]

  archives were up on the 26th 27th floor [TS]

  and the archives had a better view [TS]

  well that's what I'm not that's what I'm [TS]

  saying that is counter-intuitive right [TS]

  the higher floors the better one in an [TS]

  office building isn't it i think so i [TS]

  don't understand that at all but i would [TS]

  go up there you know that the blinds [TS]

  were always closed it was just it was [TS]

  just a row after row of these shelves of [TS]

  hard copies and presumably most of those [TS]

  most offices now have transitioned to [TS]

  computers so these are just the dead [TS]

  stacks that that will stay there until [TS]

  well for all eternity probably in some [TS]

  cases [TS]

  wow yeah it's it's it's amazing how [TS]

  quickly all that has changed and it's [TS]

  just and you know stuff like you think [TS]

  about stuff today like with like HIPAA [TS]

  laws and stuff around you know the least [TS]

  theoretically around things like privacy [TS]

  and things like that [TS]

  i remember when i was in college when [TS]

  you get your student ID card i think i [TS]

  think when i started you know in the [TS]

  mid-eighties it was the last year of of [TS]

  a few things being done a certain way [TS]

  but one of the things was I don't like [TS]

  this for you but your student ID number [TS]

  was your social security number [TS]

  hmm everybody in Florida who went to [TS]

  college that was your student ID number [TS]

  and so your student ID that you used to [TS]

  check out library books you know you [TS]

  have this little bar code each time you [TS]

  register on the back now that was a [TS]

  really big deal we got barcodes but you [TS]

  know we still had when I worked in the [TS]

  library in 1986-87 we still had cards in [TS]

  the books you can see everybody would [TS]

  ever checked out the books if you wanted [TS]

  to if you wanted to like check something [TS]

  out you'd leave your student ID with [TS]

  your social security number on it [TS]

  sitting around i mean in every document [TS]

  you ever received from the college has [TS]

  your social security number on it right [TS]

  i mean it's it's bad i mean III must [TS]

  have blocked this out but then I won't [TS]

  have to deal with a bunch of old stuff [TS]

  of mine and you know getting rid of it [TS]

  and I was amazed at like how many [TS]

  hundreds and hundreds like every [TS]

  evaluation i never gotten are you know [TS]

  and obviously things like financial aid [TS]

  its security number one every single [TS]

  piece of paper [TS]

  what was it like that for you if you'd [TS]

  like to say i'm trying to remember you [TS]

  know I we used to put our social [TS]

  security number down as primary [TS]

  identification for a lot of things [TS]

  absolutely i mean it was it was it it [TS]

  may on and if it wasn't such a banana [TS]

  system where so much was riding on that [TS]

  one string of digits it would make sense [TS]

  yeah you know if it just became like an [TS]

  easy way to make you into a number in a [TS]

  way that was public interested in what [TS]

  that's not what it was I mean yeah right [TS]

  it was well but you you know there [TS]

  weren't although there were all those [TS]

  ways to exploit it before to buy my [TS]

  favorite thing about about that ladies [TS]

  mid mid to late eighties period in [TS]

  colleges was it was the last when I [TS]

  first when i first got to college all [TS]

  the seniors we're talking about the era [TS]

  right before they started college where [TS]

  there were where there was a bar in the [TS]

  student center right like that era that [TS]

  we just missed right that ended in like [TS]

  80 to where it was where college was [TS]

  really something you know where you [TS]

  could wear you had [TS]

  keg parties that were sponsored by the [TS]

  college and stuff you know nobody no [TS]

  college has ever been sued yet because [TS]

  somebody drove a truck through the [TS]

  dining hall and it was it was like still [TS]

  the Wild West End and we were the first [TS]

  generation after that first wave of like [TS]

  well wait a minute we better close down [TS]

  the bar is in the you know that's like [TS]

  on campus but but in retrospect it was [TS]

  still the Wild West like the first [TS]

  couple of years that I hit checked [TS]

  around the country i could go into any [TS]

  college walk into walk right into any [TS]

  dorm and in most cases like walk kind of [TS]

  right into the dining hall and help [TS]

  myself or in those cases where the [TS]

  dining hall required that you have a [TS]

  card it was like it was eat it [TS]

  borrow somebody's student ID flash the [TS]

  card and then hand it back to them you [TS]

  know through the turnstile and then they [TS]

  would flash it and you know there was no [TS]

  security of any kind on campus and it [TS]

  was all done in this like sign in sign [TS]

  in and you take what you want like [TS]

  basically you could write whatever you [TS]

  could write any social security number [TS]

  right [TS]

  it wasn't like there's likely scan the [TS]

  card and wait to see if it was valid [TS]

  valid right and so I mean at the time I [TS]

  remember thinking god this sucks [TS]

  look why can't it be like it used to be [TS]

  when you know just like just open just [TS]

  open country but now of course i don't [TS]

  mean you can't even you probably can't [TS]

  get in the building at certain times a [TS]

  day at the University of Washington you [TS]

  can't even Park they've really have [TS]

  instituted this whole thing where it's [TS]

  like oh yeah this used to be parking but [TS]

  it's not very first saw this still seems [TS]

  so I understand this but it still seems [TS]

  so where is probably Manhattan [TS]

  it was the first time I ever saw one of [TS]

  those a ATM where you have to slide your [TS]

  card to even get the door to open [TS]

  so I'll go into a little that seems so [TS]

  strange i know i think i think you're [TS]

  right i think a lot of stuff happened [TS]

  and you know this is probably just basic [TS]

  self-absorption on my part thinking I [TS]

  was there when stuff change but i [TS]

  remember you remember that members [TS]

  during the early Reagan years they a lot [TS]

  federal law was created that said [TS]

  everybody needs to raise the drinking [TS]

  age to 21 right it was 19 and Idaho when [TS]

  i started at college and because if you [TS]

  didn't raise a 21 by something like I [TS]

  think 1985 or so this becomes important [TS]

  in a minute you would no longer get [TS]

  federal highway funds federal highway [TS]

  funds it's a big deal so everybody [TS]

  change the trick me to 21 but if you [TS]

  were in this certain windows 19 in [TS]

  florida and again if you were in this [TS]

  certain window grandfather your [TS]

  grandfather i missed it by I think like [TS]

  three months o.o all my friends and hung [TS]

  out with kids who just graduated and so [TS]

  you know i was always I was always [TS]

  behind until i turned twenty-one but I [TS]

  think you're right i think it used to be [TS]

  I mean can you imagine being the place [TS]

  where the drinking age is 18 came around [TS]

  that ok so so when I first when i first [TS]

  went around America it was the summer of [TS]

  86 and in Colorado that's the supper at [TS]

  the National is 18 and too young to [TS]

  drink [TS]

  yeah summer of 86 right i was i was [TS]

  still 17 but but uh but you know was [TS]

  like algae sorry 19-inch and drink in [TS]

  Colorado you could drink 32 beer near [TS]

  that's right you could you could go and [TS]

  get busy good liquor stores and they [TS]

  were like separate sections for this [TS]

  half beer that you that you could get if [TS]

  you were 18 which now seems like [TS]

  quadruple crazy to me and there were [TS]

  there were there was another state that [TS]

  you could drink three ok but you can [TS]

  only buy filtered cigarettes haha but [TS]

  Idaho was still 19 and you and there was [TS]

  a grandfather clause but I mean yeah I [TS]

  was like I was out I was out of the [TS]

  running of that but you know what i was [TS]

  in 1986 marijuana was still legal in a [TS]

  lot [TS]

  askah remember two lies right now that's [TS]

  insane marijuana was legal [TS]

  uh all through the seventies and [TS]

  eighties in Alaska they legalized [TS]

  anything you know four ounces unless at [TS]

  some point and they just it was it just [TS]

  felt like a it never really got very [TS]

  much national publicity but it was just [TS]

  a kind of a typical Alaskan move like [TS]

  this isn't this is beneath our dignity [TS]

  we have bigger problems and it's just an [TS]

  enforcement thing and we're just not [TS]

  gonna bust you for less than 4 ounces [TS]

  and even though is a federal law [TS]

  well it wasn't in the well I'm not [TS]

  exactly sure how they manipulated about [TS]

  how it all works with you but all the [TS]

  way through high school I mean it was [TS]

  kind of like it is in Amsterdam where [TS]

  you know technically it's legal but but [TS]

  Peter don't push it don't push anybody's [TS]

  buttons don't wave it under anybody's [TS]

  nose and at a certain at a certain point [TS]

  in the eighties well I remember exactly [TS]

  because my dad took me to the Rotary [TS]

  Club meeting where the Alaska State [TS]

  Troopers spokesman was making the case [TS]

  to the rotary why we should criminalize [TS]

  marijuana and it was a case he felt like [TS]

  he needed to come to the Rotary Club and [TS]

  make this case to the people and he gave [TS]

  a whole presentation and dad for your [TS]

  dad used to take me to rotary club [TS]

  meetings all the time I think largely he [TS]

  would do it just to piss off the other [TS]

  rotor rotor Arians because nobody else [TS]

  ever brought their teenage son i'm not [TS]

  sure what he there at home polishing the [TS]

  bolo ties it was this was just one of [TS]

  those things where he was just like [TS]

  course I bring my son he's a he's gonna [TS]

  wonder he's gonna run this town but so [TS]

  I'm sitting in this in this Rotary Club [TS]

  meeting and the guy gets up and he's [TS]

  like listen it was it was also the [TS]

  criminalization of three [TS]

  criminalisation of pot in Alaska was [TS]

  also tied to fight federal highway funds [TS]

  in some way although we didn't have this [TS]

  is the other thing we didn't have a [TS]

  federal highway because there was no [TS]

  there's no interstate the last take that [TS]

  Obama right so it was all state highways [TS]

  but the but the you know the feds were [TS]

  and oh and the other thing of course is [TS]

  that the oil money in Alaska means that [TS]

  we don't need federal money for stuff [TS]

  like that you know they they instituted [TS]

  will they be instituted a point one [TS]

  percent tax on all the money that came [TS]

  out of the Prudhoe Bay and by 1980 the [TS]

  state of Alaska had a surplus of like 40 [TS]

  billion or something like that I mean [TS]

  that the naked that's why they started [TS]

  doing that permanent fund I mean they [TS]

  could hand every Alaskan a one ounce bar [TS]

  of gold every time they fill up with gas [TS]

  at the service station and the state of [TS]

  Alaska but it's never run out of money [TS]

  back but so this guy get something and [TS]

  end up then the thrust of his argument [TS]

  was by by having marijuana legal here in [TS]

  the state of Alaska we are sending a [TS]

  message to kids that we do not care [TS]

  about them and that drugs are fine and [TS]

  that marijuana is a gateway drug and [TS]

  that they are going to start using pot [TS]

  because they because it's legal here and [TS]

  then they're going to become heroin [TS]

  addicts and said they're going to be sex [TS]

  workers and then there then they're [TS]

  going to end up in like a Bombay opium [TS]

  den giving blowjobs and this is an [TS]

  inevitable course of action and as this [TS]

  guy is giving this speech all around the [TS]

  the the the sheraton conference center [TS]

  where the where these Rotarian for [TS]

  setting all around i can hear our armor [TS]

  remember forever armor like the room [TS]

  really agrees with this guy and a lot of [TS]

  like accenting moaning from old men [TS]

  yeah George that's right sounds were [TS]

  perfectly reasonable and it was the you [TS]

  know the height of the Reagan years I [TS]

  remember sitting there with this likes [TS]

  look on my face like no way man [TS]

  no way will never happen you never get [TS]

  it that's not the Alaska way man [TS]

  unicare pots legal hear me and I don't [TS]

  even know if I I'd probably smoked pot [TS]

  like four times by that [TS]

  yeah but let me just you know principal [TS]

  and then it was put up was one of those [TS]

  was one of those things where I don't [TS]

  think that they had enough votes to put [TS]

  it on the ballot but they put it on the [TS]

  ballot anyway and I don't they probably [TS]

  didn't have enough votes to pass by the [TS]

  past anyway and all of a sudden pot was [TS]

  a pot was illegal in Alaska and it [TS]

  remains illegal there even now that it [TS]

  is legal in Washington which is a which [TS]

  i find is a personal affront kind of [TS]

  want to ask you about that what the pot [TS]

  legal partner in Washington [TS]

  yeah I wonder how that's going well it's [TS]

  I mean it's going great [TS]

  I i was surprised I'm surprised when I [TS]

  when I tweeted about it not very long [TS]

  ago the number of people who really had [TS]

  never tried pot because the because the [TS]

  the fact that it was illegal inhibited [TS]

  them really it was an astonishing not [TS]

  because I i sent some tweet out saying [TS]

  who in the world didn't try pot just [TS]

  because it was illegal that's an if you [TS]

  wanted to tripod it wasn't the barrier [TS]

  to entry was not that high but I got a [TS]

  ton of replies from all over the world [TS]

  of people say like well no I didn't try [TS]

  because it's illegal and also it makes [TS]

  sense it's illegal [TS]

  the only people that have access to it [TS]

  are criminals and drug people that is [TS]

  fascinating and I didn't want to deal [TS]

  with criminals and drug people so I've [TS]

  never tried it but now that it's legal [TS]

  maybe i will and i was like really [TS]

  fascinated by it because that's not even [TS]

  probably a representative sample of the [TS]

  people in the world that's just people [TS]

  that follow me on Twitter or who are who [TS]

  are I mean definitely a lot of nerds but [TS]

  like not that they're not this the [TS]

  squares there at least they're on [TS]

  Twitter [TS]

  I mean there are tons and tons and tons [TS]

  of squares out there that are that who [TS]

  knows maybe the fact that pot is legal [TS]

  now they're like maybe I should give [TS]

  this part of try [TS]

  I mean that whole idea that the the [TS]

  legality or illegality of that thing [TS]

  would that that now that it's been made [TS]

  legal again people would say oh well it [TS]

  must be safe right [TS]

  it's just crazy to me but in any case [TS]

  there are pot stores now they're already [TS]

  were pot stores opening all over the [TS]

  place because of that medical marijuana [TS]

  thing but they were those bullshit [TS]

  dispensaries with the green cross that [TS]

  are made to look like a pharmacy haha [TS]

  that I haha that I just I find it so [TS]

  insulting like let's just call a spade a [TS]

  spade parties to get stoned if you have [TS]

  glaucoma or you know or stomach cancer [TS]

  by all means get pot and I don't for a [TS]

  second like the Grinch but when you say [TS]

  that people act like you're telling [TS]

  little kids that Santa Claus isn't real [TS]

  you know you something could be a karma [TS]

  stock right all the people who are like [TS]

  I have anxiety disorder and the only [TS]

  thing that helps is pot tons and tons of [TS]

  pot it's like first of all if you have [TS]

  anxiety disorder [TS]

  the last thing you need is pot but like [TS]

  that a lot of i would say i would say [TS]

  eighty-five percent of that argument is [TS]

  baloney or if you are making that case [TS]

  like okay the case is made right like a [TS]

  pot as a medicine is the same as cedar [TS]

  bark as medicine and now that it's legal [TS]

  great like grind it up in your with your [TS]

  hammer and pestle and then make a [TS]

  tincture whatever it is you think you [TS]

  need to do that my seedbox husband's [TS]

  that is not that that that was not a a [TS]

  persuasive argument for me that was a [TS]

  backdoor way to ending the ridiculous [TS]

  probably [TS]

  not pot yeah that's exactly yeah and now [TS]

  that it's over let's put it let's let's [TS]

  put that baloney aside but the you know [TS]

  the state is doing what the state does [TS]

  with with all things which is trying to [TS]

  regulate and tax the shit out of it and [TS]

  I imagine most of the people i know who [TS]

  smoked pot are still buying pot from [TS]

  their pot dealer and they just feel a [TS]

  little bit more relaxed about it but not [TS]

  I i can't i can't believe that very many [TS]

  people are going down to the pot store [TS]

  I mean that they're rolling it the [TS]

  rolling it out gradually and i think [TS]

  most of the ones i see are still in this [TS]

  dispensary category [TS]

  yeah which involves way too much signing [TS]

  up you know like way too much Stoker [TS]

  yeah right it's like whoa whoa whoa i [TS]

  got assigned something [TS]

  oh hey man well you know how we will [TS]

  talk to a lot in the past you know about [TS]

  how you you don't want to become too [TS]

  much of an old guy how we don't want to [TS]

  be coming all goal people who just kind [TS]

  of write stuff off and whether it's [TS]

  music or whatever i'm trying to keep my [TS]

  powder dry about this because my [TS]

  immediate reaction is a little bit like [TS]

  what is going on but I you know I want [TS]

  to make sure that there's not new [TS]

  information I need to take in but I [TS]

  guess it's what decriminalized in [TS]

  California or been in San Francisco it's [TS]

  always been theirs as long as I've been [TS]

  in San Francisco it's real pretty much [TS]

  more acceptable to smoke a joint and a [TS]

  cigarette most places and that's you [TS]

  know how San Francisco is but mana no no [TS]

  this is a just me noticing and [TS]

  availability heuristic but you know [TS]

  there's a partner house that high school [TS]

  students walk through you know after [TS]

  school and I mean the evidence is there [TS]

  it's just if there's something really [TS]

  weird to me about walking by and there's [TS]

  this like tornadoes like just like like [TS]

  funnels of swisher sweet wrappers just [TS]

  like spinning around and there's a bunch [TS]

  of like 16 year old kids just sitting [TS]

  there just smoking pot and and my [TS]

  daughter walked by and we know how are [TS]

  you and keep going [TS]

  they're not bad people are smoked some [TS]

  time apart but something about it [TS]

  rankles me a little bit [TS]

  they should be scared i don't know why i [TS]

  think that but they should not be [TS]

  allowed to roll blood [TS]

  in the park is something about it really [TS]

  bothers me well I I feel like even if I [TS]

  didn't have a kid even if I were merely [TS]

  an old guy i think it would bug me [TS]

  we're going where we're going to as a [TS]

  nation I think go through a transition [TS]

  period that maybe 15 years long-wear pot [TS]

  is decriminalized and and we have we [TS]

  have two whole generations of people who [TS]

  grew up a during this prohibition period [TS]

  who feel like now smoking pot in public [TS]

  smoking pot and you know proudly in [TS]

  front of everybody is still some kind of [TS]

  resistance movement you know and that [TS]

  that walking around smoking pot is there [TS]

  is there right now and um and they're [TS]

  going to it's going to be like this kind [TS]

  of proud let my freak flag fly business [TS]

  but they say you're saying though it's [TS]

  it's symbolic of something more than [TS]

  just getting intoxicated [TS]

  yeah yeah right i mean the fact that [TS]

  they can take a civil right it's a civil [TS]

  right and also one where they are [TS]

  they're very conscious of the fact that [TS]

  people are still shocked by it and it [TS]

  feels like very new and it feels very um [TS]

  you know I i said i think when it first [TS]

  happened I mean I almost want to go down [TS]

  and buy an ounce of pot at the store [TS]

  just because of all the years that that [TS]

  wasn't possible and that just feels like [TS]

  yeah I'm just buy it and and throw it on [TS]

  the ground but like to go do it it's [TS]

  probably way higher quality and this [TS]

  stuff we owe customarily risked arrest [TS]

  together it's ludicrous yeah but I think [TS]

  you see what happened in the Netherlands [TS]

  is that there became a real social a [TS]

  real social divide it within the culture [TS]

  that the Dutch people stop being [TS]

  impressed with with pop culture and with [TS]

  like well I'm smoking pot outside you [TS]

  know like the Dutch were not impressed [TS]

  with that [TS]

  after a very short amount of time is in [TS]

  other ones is it fair to say it's kind [TS]

  of a live-and-let-live kind of place [TS]

  well I in some ways yes in some ways no [TS]

  I mean the Dutch themselves are very [TS]

  like personally reserved and I think [TS]

  extremely judgmental of each other and [TS]

  of themselves you know there personally [TS]

  very very reticent and very put together [TS]

  their live-and-let-live aspect of their [TS]

  culture is is founded on a kind of like [TS]

  is this worth is this worth worrying [TS]

  about is this worth directing resources [TS]

  toward a more practical it's it's it's [TS]

  it's strictly practical and it's also [TS]

  kind of like a core libertarianism in [TS]

  them that's just like this is beneath [TS]

  contempt or like what why would we [TS]

  worried about this why would we like [TS]

  they're there they're not they're not a [TS]

  police 'i culture they're much more [TS]

  there self-police i guess and part of [TS]

  being self-police is that you don't but [TS]

  then you don't really empower the police [TS]

  to be an army but if you walk down the [TS]

  street in the Netherlands smoking a [TS]

  joint you will get a lot of I mean not [TS]

  like weird looks but you will definitely [TS]

  feel unappreciated you know like [TS]

  unwelcome basically because you are [TS]

  you're not violating the law but you are [TS]

  violating the social compact and you are [TS]

  identifying yourself as a low-life [TS]

  basically so it within the netherlands [TS]

  if you want to smoke pot that's fine [TS]

  anybody that smokes pot is fine and [TS]

  they're they're not they're not bummed [TS]

  out about it but it's also not you don't [TS]

  get a sense of like that the country [TS]

  that the mentality in the country is do [TS]

  whatever you want man [TS]

  welcome to the Netherlands do whatever [TS]

  you want the culture is very much like [TS]

  welcome to the Netherlands please [TS]

  deposit your garbage in the proper [TS]

  receptacle perfect can you please keep [TS]

  it down after 8pm and like if you don't [TS]

  you're just gonna get I mean they will [TS]

  basically tisk tisk you to death [TS]

  sounds like Switzerland well except the [TS]

  Swiss are our head our way more law and [TS]

  order and the Dutch are much they are [TS]

  much more free and easy but it's but but [TS]

  there's also a kind of assumption there [TS]

  are a lot of people from other places in [TS]

  the Netherlands and so that the people [TS]

  that are from their feel a cultural [TS]

  divide like if you walk through that the [TS]

  lights plane there are people smoking [TS]

  pot of people drinking beer and it's a [TS]

  rowdy rowdy place but if you step back [TS]

  and lean against the wall and watch how [TS]

  the Dutch behave [TS]

  they're just walking through they're on [TS]

  their way to somewhere else like you [TS]

  there are whole places in Amsterdam or [TS]

  in any Dutch city where it's just Dutch [TS]

  people going about their business and it [TS]

  does not feel like a Renaissance Fair in [TS]

  this place of it feels like it feels [TS]

  like an architect's office an open-air [TS]

  architects office orderly orderly and [TS]

  people are you know people are very [TS]

  well-groomed and they are very they're [TS]

  on their way somewhere and they have a [TS]

  Bab methodology and it's not it's it is [TS]

  not like just go for it bro one so I [TS]

  feel like that's going to happen here [TS]

  too there's going to be a period where [TS]

  where people are smoking pot and doing [TS]

  their thing and everybody's real proud [TS]

  of it but the natural at least in the [TS]

  northwest the natural social overlay is [TS]

  to say okay man you know why I see that [TS]

  you're smoking pot and that's fine and [TS]

  everything but like I'm walking through [TS]

  the park with my kids and different like [TS]

  straighten up and fly right listen I i [TS]

  mentioned it not just because it's [TS]

  embarrassing and pays me an old man but [TS]

  because it just to kind of unpacking a [TS]

  little bit its there's so many things [TS]

  that it's not to me [TS]

  first of all I don't really care of [TS]

  people smoke pot I smoke pot and it is [TS]

  really pretty harmless i definitely my [TS]

  large x large and you know but I [TS]

  also the driver delivered smoke pot and [TS]

  rub tiger balm on your temples as much [TS]

  as I shouldn't that window closed it and [TS]

  it's also but and it's absolutely the [TS]

  case that like gosh I mean I just don't [TS]

  turn into like a system of a down record [TS]

  but like no I think that address but all [TS]

  that the drug policy stuff is grazing [TS]

  the number of people who are in jail for [TS]

  a certain amount of time because it's [TS]

  only drug that stupid stupid do it also [TS]

  the wrong way to do it so it's not that [TS]

  either it's not like I'm saying oh you [TS]

  doing drugs you should get in trouble [TS]

  I'm not even saying that it's something [TS]

  we're like this it's almost as part of [TS]

  me that's that's the two things i can [TS]

  distill it down to is first of all it [TS]

  does seem weird that it's just ok for [TS]

  kids in high school to smoke pot and not [TS]

  be worried about it i don't know why [TS]

  that bothers me but that does seem [TS]

  strange and the other one is I think [TS]

  it's gonna kind of become like the new [TS]

  cell phone [TS]

  I think it's going to be a little bit [TS]

  like cell phones were in like nineteen [TS]

  ninety-six em where it's just gonna be [TS]

  something that annoying people are doing [TS]

  as they can write like oh I'm on this [TS]

  bus i'm gonna i'm gonna smoke some of my [TS]

  marijuana [TS]

  yeah it's something that annoying people [TS]

  will do because they can that's exactly [TS]

  what you see ye hear me struggling with [TS]

  it though because I it isn't something i [TS]

  don't want people to get in trouble for [TS]

  it and yet there's this part of me that [TS]

  thinks like it's it's and this is just [TS]

  the old guy in me I think but there's a [TS]

  part of me that thinks like I guess I'm [TS]

  in retrospect grateful probably the [TS]

  wrong word but like I wonder how I would [TS]

  be today if I kept smoking as much pot [TS]

  as I could smoke all the time with no [TS]

  repercussions was picturing the scene [TS]

  well this is a and this is before we [TS]

  like nervous and paranoid that have you [TS]

  seen Merlin know nobody sees Merlin um [TS]

  this is what I think one of our [TS]

  reoccurring themes and it's bennett and [TS]

  it is a question that it's very easy to [TS]

  it's very easy to put this into the camp [TS]

  of like we're a couple of old guys and [TS]

  we are making the transition now to old [TS]

  guy concern yeah like let's say we're on [TS]

  the wrong side of history [TS]

  potentially yeah but the but what we [TS]

  keep coming back to what is what is a [TS]

  major thread running through everything [TS]

  we ever [TS]

  about is the idea of self-governance and [TS]

  our perception of the current world as [TS]

  being one where self-governance is no [TS]

  longer taught or prized and the world [TS]

  that we not necessarily came from but [TS]

  the world that existed before the one [TS]

  from whence you when we aspire to and [TS]

  the and absolutely the one we aspire to [TS]

  is a one is a world where [TS]

  self-governance is is highly prized and [TS]

  and taught and practiced you know and [TS]

  what what happened in the sixties and [TS]

  throughout the seventies and eighties [TS]

  and certainly now it's just been this [TS]

  gradual process of kara and this may be [TS]

  true i mean i think if you look at the [TS]

  popular culture in the twenties it was [TS]

  true it's always true of teenagers and [TS]

  people in their early twenties to say to [TS]

  equate self-governance with uptightness [TS]

  and unhip pneus and why can't you just [TS]

  be free why can't you just you know like [TS]

  be creative and be freely a you want you [TS]

  want everybody to be tightly one like [TS]

  you [TS]

  right exactly and so and that is that's [TS]

  like deeply unhip and one creative and [TS]

  inhibiting and but what has happened is [TS]

  there's all this like psychological [TS]

  science and pseudoscience and [TS]

  generations and generations of people [TS]

  now with with quote unquote evidence to [TS]

  support that all you need to do is is [TS]

  you know give a give a grown-up a crayon [TS]

  and and some mushrooms or whatever and [TS]

  and look out world because he's finally [TS]

  free [TS]

  and he quits his job at IBM and he [TS]

  becomes a he becomes a a fire dancer and [TS]

  a and a pornographer and her and her a [TS]

  and this is the world that we want to [TS]

  live in this world of ultimate freedom [TS]

  where everybody is just fully alive and [TS]

  so and the way to accomplish that is [TS]

  through art and through destroying these [TS]

  structures and structures that used to [TS]

  bind us to one another and and in fact [TS]

  what it does is it creates two separate [TS]

  classes one the class of people who are [TS]

  keep you keep moving and get out of the [TS]

  way and are conscious of their [TS]

  surroundings and are trying to not be a [TS]

  burden to other people and are aware [TS]

  that like society dictates that we not [TS]

  all do whatever we wanted any good [TS]

  all do whatever we wanted any good [TS]

  moment and then an entire separate class [TS]

  of people who live in the world as [TS]

  though anything that inhibits their the [TS]

  anything that inhibits the momentary [TS]

  expression of their whim is some kind of [TS]

  either evidence of a police state or a [TS]

  crew who religious state or is some like [TS]

  worse some inhibited one creative bad [TS]

  vibe lands III feeling get the feeling [TS]

  that people think that it is anytime [TS]

  that what you're describing happens they [TS]

  want to find a way to frame it as an [TS]

  organized attempt to attack them [TS]

  personally because of how they are right [TS]

  right oh and then precisely then the [TS]

  then the you introduce the idea of [TS]

  identity politics to it which is that [TS]

  not only is it a question of creativity [TS]

  but a question that the UH of their [TS]

  identity and how they were born and [TS]

  shaped and who they really are and so [TS]

  now [TS]

  yeah you are you're attacking their core [TS]

  like they will look you right in the eye [TS]

  didn't say I cannot keep moving and get [TS]

  out of the way because I you know [TS]

  because i am differently-abled than you [TS]

  are [TS]

  body shaming there whatever it's just [TS]

  like well no really you still capable of [TS]

  both moving and getting out of the way [TS]

  because you got here [TS]

  you got to this you got to the [TS]

  supermarket somehow yeah so I I don't [TS]

  know how to other than through our [TS]

  podcast you're in my philosophy podcast [TS]

  I mean how to and and we wrestle with [TS]

  all the time like it are we super unhip [TS]

  I'm sure there are people who listen to [TS]

  the podcast and rejected immediately [TS]

  because they hear it as two old guys who [TS]

  no longer are free but I I really do [TS]

  believe that's that self governance is a [TS]

  philosophy and in my case it [TS]

  it includes a little bit of masochism [TS]

  and self-abnegation but like it is a way [TS]

  it is a valid way of constructing a [TS]

  society and it and that's why I admire [TS]

  the Dutch they are self-governing and [TS]

  part of that is that they're at their [TS]

  social contract implies a lot of that [TS]

  you know like if you step out you are [TS]

  noticed and they don't want to be [TS]

  noticed in that way right but I don't [TS]

  know what I don't know how Stella got it [TS]

  like myself not self-esteem almost [TS]

  absolutely and himself image they see [TS]

  themselves as being as doing the right [TS]

  thing and I would want to do something [TS]

  that made you even think that I was [TS]

  doing the wrong thing because and not [TS]

  just because they're afraid of being [TS]

  noticed but because they think its moral [TS]

  who you know I remember getting into an [TS]

  argument not very long ago on twitter if [TS]

  you can imagine me getting into an [TS]

  argument is you out earlier an argument [TS]

  huh where I said somewhere I said [TS]

  something to the effect of if you wear [TS]

  shorts and flip-flops on an airplane [TS]

  you are a garbage person and they should [TS]

  put you in a shoot and send you out into [TS]

  the sky and I get some reply from a guy [TS]

  who's a college educated person who [TS]

  works in software probably or works you [TS]

  know has a good job and he replies very [TS]

  heartily that why shouldn't he be [TS]

  comfortable on an airplane and I why [TS]

  should i just come to your Cuban fart [TS]

  sack wrote back and said your comfort is [TS]

  at the expense of everyone else is [TS]

  comfort and he says I fail to see how me [TS]

  being comfortable impacts anyone else [TS]

  that's the problem and I said there's [TS]

  likely that there's the problem you're [TS]

  not aware of your flip-flops and you're [TS]

  like shorts intruding on other people's [TS]

  space and we went back and forth until I [TS]

  realized it was pointless but I've been [TS]

  in that argument with a lot of people [TS]

  wear [TS]

  where the the perception of the [TS]

  perception of the of the social contract [TS]

  from their end is that the [TS]

  responsibility that the onus is on me to [TS]

  not be grossed out rather than being on [TS]

  them to behave with what we used to [TS]

  think of as decorum like don't show up [TS]

  to [TS]

  don't go out in public in your pajamas [TS]

  don't pick your nose don't put your feet [TS]

  up on things you know and it's not it's [TS]

  it's like we were talking about before [TS]

  it's not just that that Miss Manners is [TS]

  trying to like rob you of your comfort [TS]

  you know this is the this is this it's a [TS]

  it's it's social libertarianism in a way [TS]

  like a good way to put it [TS]

  yeah it is like it is then kind of like [TS]

  the person who is not only talking [TS]

  really really really loud into their [TS]

  into their mobile phone but that talking [TS]

  really loud in their mobile phone kind [TS]

  of feels like they know exactly what [TS]

  they did they're doing they are on [TS]

  purpose trying to have a conversation [TS]

  that everybody will have to hear for [TS]

  whatever reason right right although I [TS]

  got into a big fight with a guy in a [TS]

  hotel lobby one time who was sitting it [TS]

  was one of those one of those loveseat [TS]

  kind of hotel couches where I'm sitting [TS]

  with my back to a guy but he's right [TS]

  there his head is right almost touching [TS]

  mind sitting on a couch on the other [TS]

  side having a very animated phone [TS]

  conversation and I looked around the [TS]

  lobby and everyone else in the lobby is [TS]

  sitting quietly reading a book or [TS]

  looking at their computer and this guy [TS]

  is just to NE and cities not talking [TS]

  about anything [TS]

  he's just talking loud and I and I [TS]

  leaned back and I said hey guy could you [TS]

  take your phone conversation outside [TS]

  because look around no one else is [TS]

  talking it's quiet lobby who hate crime [TS]

  and he was a young guy you know young [TS]

  enough in his twenties [TS]

  and he was it was like I it was like I [TS]

  said something about his family her and [TS]

  he did get up and leave but not out of [TS]

  politeness he got up and left because he [TS]

  he felt like he was being assaulted and [TS]

  um anyway you know he went and stood [TS]

  outside and like glared at me through [TS]

  the window but like kind of a little bit [TS]

  scared but really mostly mad because I [TS]

  said get that free time to try haha it's [TS]

  like it's like photosynthesis to me [TS]

  look Claire my precious collect [TS]

  chlorophyll in my skills with vitamins [TS]

  yeah he's out there you know and he's [TS]

  talking to the phone i'm sure the rest [TS]

  of his phone conversation now he finally [TS]

  had something to talk about he had eat [TS]

  talk about this hate crime guy who told [TS]

  him that he couldn't do what he was [TS]

  doing and the only reason he didn't make [TS]

  a stand the only reason you know that [TS]

  wasn't his Little Bighorn was that he [TS]

  was afraid of me but you at which added [TS]

  to the which added to the problem you [TS]

  know and it's not like I didn't even he [TS]

  didn't even see me just heard my voice [TS]

  so you were her allure especially [TS]

  harassing him [TS]

  absolutely yeah I was interrupting his [TS]

  personal phone call to like make some [TS]

  comment about his behavior which is not [TS]

  my right to do right and at the time I [TS]

  thought I saw that moment as like all [TS]

  right here's easy this is a kid who has [TS]

  grown up in this world where he never [TS]

  got less than an a in school no one ever [TS]

  told him he did anything less than a [TS]

  great job and he has never got that [TS]

  punch in the nests never got a bunch of [TS]

  the notes he is not accustomed to anyone [TS]

  ever saying [TS]

  Butkus to him he does what he wants and [TS]

  he is praised for it for the most part [TS]

  and in a lot of cases like you live that [TS]

  way you get a good job somewhere you are [TS]

  you're conscious of the stub the the [TS]

  rules that matter to them now you know [TS]

  what I mean like he would never ever [TS]

  ever say something that might be [TS]

  construed as sexual harassment he would [TS]

  never ever ever say something that might [TS]

  be construed as racially insensitive so [TS]

  by his matrix he's following the rules [TS]

  he is obeying the social rules that [TS]

  matter and he's on he's unconscious has [TS]

  never even been taught these archaic [TS]

  social rules like don't sit in the [TS]

  middle of a quiet lobby and yell into [TS]

  your phone about that damage on which is [TS]

  our rights where's our parade haha [TS]

  there's nobody standing up for us up and [TS]

  it may very well be a generational thing [TS]

  in at and to the degree that there was [TS]

  not that long ago a time where I'm sure [TS]

  somebody sat on an airplane and a woman [TS]

  got on and she was not wearing elbow [TS]

  length gloves and that person said oh my [TS]

  god the world is going to hell it and [TS]

  and it may very well be that these [TS]

  standards that we feel are are somehow [TS]

  core and basic are just are just ancient [TS]

  standards now [TS]

  yeah and we are not we're going to be [TS]

  ill prepared to live in a future world [TS]

  where everyone is [TS]

  I mean more people get on airplanes in [TS]

  g-strings and flip-flops are you [TS]

  body-shaping sex workers and I i hit i [TS]

  absolutely take to refer to imagine that [TS]

  can you imagine the kind of germs you [TS]

  would get from that a g-string sit down [TS]

  on this plane seats [TS]

  well the problem is they're going to [TS]

  train they're going to very quickly [TS]

  replace all the seats with just standing [TS]

  up like handlebars have like an ironing [TS]

  board with the seatbelt on [TS]

  yeah and so you know so why not be a [TS]

  g-string [TS]

  it's your comfort after all [TS]

  but and and I honestly don't I I don't [TS]

  want to refer to the movie idiocracy [TS]

  because it's too easy and it seems so [TS]

  on-the-nose except right it really is it [TS]

  really you can see it you can't unsee it [TS]

  and you can't unthink it and grip the [TS]

  last and I don't I don't I don't want to [TS]

  be up i don't want to be standing on on [TS]

  some principles that don't actually [TS]

  matter but i do feel that we are we are [TS]

  animals and that civilization and a lot [TS]

  of its precepts are in place to keep us [TS]

  from being animals [TS]

  yeah and totally and the more of them we [TS]

  decide are unimportant the closer with [TS]

  you know the clay we are not it is not [TS]

  just a zero-sum game of like oh let's to [TS]

  release ourselves and become more [TS]

  creative because it's like you're not [TS]

  doing anything original dude everybody [TS]

  knows that you could choose to go be a [TS]

  freak that's never been out of reach to [TS]

  you it's just that everybody else was [TS]

  raised that means like anything having [TS]

  to do with expertise you have to start [TS]

  out by learning things that are [TS]

  presented to you as rigid rules that [TS]

  must be followed recipes that must be [TS]

  followed down to the TSP and eventually [TS]

  you get good enough that you can shuck [TS]

  and jive but the thing is that's the [TS]

  thing about expertise is you're not [TS]

  making better food by not following the [TS]

  recipe you don't make crap your food [TS]

  because somebody's trying to food shame [TS]

  you you know we're getting better at it [TS]

  and that's the idea of being an adult [TS]

  and getting older and you know it does [TS]

  seem like small stuff to say hey could [TS]

  you treat this as the common space that [TS]

  it is like everybody else here everybody [TS]

  else here is getting along so but it [TS]

  does that make you feel a little bit [TS]

  like the crazy one though I feel like [TS]

  I'm in a different movie [TS]

  I feel like to quote the fantastic mr [TS]

  fox I feel like I'm losing my mind i [TS]

  just want to see everybody here [TS]

  doesn't everybody see this i think [TS]

  george costanza why is everybody not [TS]

  just asking this guy to shut up but it's [TS]

  so disruptive to everybody especially [TS]

  when you go to the airport lounge and [TS]

  you're in the quiet room and somebody's [TS]

  on the phone you had that one [TS]

  no I don't go [TS]

  my god but but i do but i do very much [TS]

  perceive i mean the the last time I got [TS]

  into this was i I pulled into some [TS]

  airport waiting area for my flight and [TS]

  there was a guy there doing calisthenics [TS]

  on a seat and anna and he very clearly [TS]

  thought that what he was doing was [TS]

  stretching out and getting ready for the [TS]

  flight because he didn't want to be you [TS]

  know he was he didn't want to be tense [TS]

  get my client [TS]

  yeah and he needed to be relaxed and [TS]

  this was important and we should all be [TS]

  doing that you could see it in his you [TS]

  can see it in the way he was dressed in [TS]

  the way he was acting that he thought we [TS]

  were the dummies that everybody in the [TS]

  airport wasn't taking up for seats and [TS]

  dripping sweat on them like stretching [TS]

  out like like yoga kind of stretching [TS]

  yoga stretching to get ready for the you [TS]

  know the like five hour up a punishment [TS]

  session he was gonna be undertaking with [TS]

  the rest of us in this part 2 and I was [TS]

  you know I'm there with my little girl [TS]

  and I was just naturally like oh right [TS]

  this guy thinks that this is his workout [TS]

  room and he's violating the social [TS]

  contract he doesn't think he is he [TS]

  thinks he's smarter than we are [TS]

  I think he thinks that he's an [TS]

  individual as an individual but he's [TS]

  also a role model like this is what we [TS]

  if we were all as in touch with our [TS]

  bodies he is after all as healthy as a [TS]

  fiddle America have a little that your [TS]

  face that's right we are a bunch of fat [TS]

  slobs he's the only one that is really [TS]

  taking advantage of this opportunity to [TS]

  get stretched out and get clean and so I [TS]

  made a short little video of him and I [TS]

  posted on the internet and I was like [TS]

  here's this guy [TS]

  is this guy doing this and he sees me [TS]

  making the video of him and he gets [TS]

  ashamed and he ducks his head down and [TS]

  hide and i got fifty 50 responses fifty [TS]

  percent of the people were like fuck [TS]

  that guy forever and fifty percent of [TS]

  the people were like oh I can't believe [TS]

  that you would do that you would post a [TS]

  video of that guy without his consent [TS]

  and we should have a dialogue about this [TS]

  and those people i wrote back and said [TS]

  well I he did not have my consent to [TS]

  sweat all over those chairs and he's [TS]

  like he's bite by stepping outside of [TS]

  the of what we agree are the rules [TS]

  he is making himself a spectacle he is [TS]

  making himself a public person like I'm [TS]

  not walking around putting my video [TS]

  camera in people's faces who are sitting [TS]

  in the airport like a person sits in an [TS]

  airport [TS]

  yeah but if you are putting on a show [TS]

  like you you cross the line into like [TS]

  hey look at this guy he's putting on a [TS]

  show for us and so here he goes here is [TS]

  his moment he's going to get on the [TS]

  internet and i'm going to say fuck this [TS]

  guy and I went back and forth with a [TS]

  couple of people and a couple of people [TS]

  not even people that I like and admire [TS]

  whose work I am familiar with who their [TS]

  version of the social contract is you [TS]

  don't take up you don't shame somebody [TS]

  on the internet right you don't take a [TS]

  video of somebody without their consent [TS]

  and shame them for their behavior [TS]

  because that is the that's the real [TS]

  danger that actually not something you [TS]

  do very often is I don't do it at all I [TS]

  don't do it unless there's somebody who [TS]

  is behaving shamefully like like this [TS]

  guy did not and what's amazing is that [TS]

  if I found out later that he and i guess [TS]

  i should have thought of this he was it [TS]

  was this is applied to seattle he's a [TS]

  guy coming to seattle and there were [TS]

  people on facebook they're like I know [TS]

  that guy [TS]

  oh god that guy is like vp of somebody [TS]

  for this tech company and I got a couple [TS]

  she thought officer / yocrunch exactly [TS]

  and I got a couple of dm's that were [TS]

  like that guy's the biggest fucking [TS]

  prick than ever [TS]

  but and of course he is [TS]

  you know but but but that idea that a [TS]

  and in a way this now the whole concept [TS]

  of like the public performative aspect [TS]

  of everything we're doing now is really [TS]

  opt-in you know what I mean if you want [TS]

  to stay if you want to stay anonymous [TS]

  that is as easy as can be because no one [TS]

  is walking around picking people at [TS]

  random and anonymously like that and and [TS]

  and spoiling their anonymity as a kind [TS]

  of blood sport because there are far far [TS]

  too many people dressing like dragons [TS]

  and masturbating in public places [TS]

  because they have a prescription for it [TS]

  you know how far are we from that my [TS]

  doctors video [TS]

  my doctor says that i need to masturbate [TS]

  under a blanket on a park bench for my [TS]

  anxiety that second cuts and the dragon [TS]

  costume is part of my new identity so [TS]

  hey there is transitioning the two are [TS]

  connected the dragon costume is part of [TS]

  my dragon identity and the masturbating [TS]

  I have a prescription for it and so this [TS]

  stop this is not going out [TS]

  stop looking at me videotaping me em up [TS]

  up up [TS]