Roderick on the Line

Ep. 113: "Big Comedy Rock Solo"


  this episode of Roderick on the line is [TS]

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  [Music] [TS]

  hello hi John hi Merlin has it going [TS]

  pretty good although I reached up to [TS]

  click on the answer button on on the [TS]

  skype who and I accidentally clicked the [TS]

  button that said software updates are [TS]

  available for your computer would you [TS]

  like to download them now [TS]

  oh and i clicked on yes apparently out [TS]

  here [TS]

  you don't know that and the thing [TS]

  started to like started to work and I [TS]

  was like no no no I don't want that and [TS]

  i looked at and but the X button now [TS]

  shaded out I couldn't click on it and [TS]

  there was no canceling wasn't an option [TS]

  anymore and so something right now is [TS]

  working behind the scenes on my computer [TS]

  to update my software which I do not [TS]

  want we do an open a support ticket for [TS]

  you think so I using gonna send a report [TS]

  to apple windows pc or apple macintosh [TS]

  haha i don't even remember i stopped [TS]

  updating back before there was a [TS]

  difference [TS]

  babyface respondents have you tried [TS]

  restarting i wanna i would unplug the [TS]

  machine from the wall [TS]

  thank you enough have you tried running [TS]

  the diagnostic mmm my favorite of all [TS]

  the program plastic diagnostic indicates [TS]

  that it is not work [TS]

  diagnostic cannot connect your good [TS]

  cannot connect your computer to the [TS]

  internet Thank You back cause that's how [TS]

  I feel that's how I feel with lots of [TS]

  things I was about to say as how i would [TS]

  feel like if the the electric power went [TS]

  out and then there was a diagnostic base [TS]

  that required electric power to tell me [TS]

  whether the power was on my favorite 1i [TS]

  think i mention this before because you [TS]

  know John this is an evergreen program [TS]

  we've done this for for many years now [TS]

  but uh listen to me episode anytime my [TS]

  favorite is when my comcast connection [TS]

  goes from being merely a piece of human [TS]

  shit to obviously not working and i can [TS]

  look at a glance over the motor and see [TS]

  that the right lights are not on [TS]

  something is wrong i restarted i do the [TS]

  rain dance and my favorite though is [TS]

  that when I have to determine why it's [TS]

  out and so you call comcast [TS]

  and they tell you to go to the website [TS]

  right that's my favorite [TS]

  yeah that's nice they're smart although [TS]

  i met your comcast guy i used certainly [TS]

  did isn't he a gem is a very nice man i [TS]

  was in Colorado mi was alice is a wonder [TS]

  i forgot about this this is a wonderful [TS]

  story [TS]

  well it's a story no uh-uh wonderful and [TS]

  it has your panties or something don't [TS]

  know the reason that I the reason that i [TS]

  was in that situation is I went you know [TS]

  I went I went to the conference on world [TS]

  affairs just this first time for the [TS]

  first time you know justjust a earlier [TS]

  this year and I had a great time at the [TS]

  conference on world affairs it's wet and [TS]

  just as I predicted as as I'm getting [TS]

  further and further away from it i'm [TS]

  remembering it as being a spectacular [TS]

  event that I would you know I would [TS]

  highly recommend but the but the one the [TS]

  one bomber was that I was they had me on [TS]

  there they had me in in their system I [TS]

  guess on their radar as a musician [TS]

  primarily although the people who [TS]

  invited me that the people really who [TS]

  invited me to come I think understood [TS]

  that I was there as a I guess podcaster [TS]

  but the music just keeps getting worse [TS]

  doesn't doesn't doesn't doesn't make you [TS]

  miss attributed and find out miss [TS]

  attributed as as as a musician first [TS]

  instead of being a potential retired [TS]

  director of the CIA is bad enough right [TS]

  that is what I should have been there as [TS]

  we don't even have a slot in Excel for [TS]

  podcaster yeah and I all week long i'm [TS]

  talking to 70 year olds and I'm like [TS]

  podcast they're like podcast but so I [TS]

  went to the big the big music [TS]

  performance and they were like you got [TS]

  to get up and play with all the other [TS]

  musicians take a load out man you know i [TS]

  have i told you this story I don't want [TS]

  to rely totally want to hear hear all [TS]

  these stories are you what was it was an [TS]

  acoustic guitar that wasn't plugged in [TS]

  thrust into your hands [TS]

  no it was it was a thousand times worse [TS]

  you know every so all the other [TS]

  musicians that go to this they go to [TS]

  this conference [TS]

  are like middle-aged jazz musicians some [TS]

  of them old jazz musicians some of them [TS]

  like properly old musicians who have [TS]

  played the newport jazz festival that [TS]

  progressions have a to coordinate for 40 [TS]

  years well you know that they have [TS]

  progressions on top of progressions and [TS]

  progression separate aggressions and [TS]

  they're like no no it's just a simple [TS]

  jam nobody knows the stuff we just all [TS]

  get up there and jam and I was like yeah [TS]

  not my that's not my scene [TS]

  I don't do that very well like i like to [TS]

  jam share nanak yes no I'm saying it [TS]

  doesn't like that would be you you're [TS]

  gonna be your yourse captain would be [TS]

  going out looking real 18 minutes to get [TS]

  it is not walk up and grab the [TS]

  microphone ago [TS]

  have I told you this story but uh but [TS]

  but so everybody's like they're all like [TS]

  super jazzed their cats you know these [TS]

  get these people are jazz cats and and [TS]

  throughout the whole week i keep saying [TS]

  like I'm not really a hammer I mean if [TS]

  there was like a half-rack Astros and we [TS]

  were in the basement of somebody's house [TS]

  yeah i would jam but i don't know i [TS]

  don't get up and I don't get up on a [TS]

  stage with 25 people and like unless [TS]

  unless we're doing unless its extended [TS]

  bringing on the heartbreak 12 yeah [TS]

  exactly bringing on the heartbreak like [TS]

  and everybody takes a solo that's fun [TS]

  anyway so I'm standing on the wings of [TS]

  this place and they have rented a [TS]

  Stratocaster for me and there's an amp [TS]

  and I'm like I'm I'm all set up [TS]

  I like i say that there's a spot for me [TS]

  on this on this stage where there's 18 [TS]

  other players and they are let's see [TS]

  there's two sacks opponents to other [TS]

  guitarists like two bass players that [TS]

  guy playing the google horn a3 like yes [TS]

  cat vocalists [TS]

  a couple of drummers one of them from [TS]

  Israel you know it that people from all [TS]

  around the world and they're out there [TS]

  playing basically the theme from taxi [TS]

  she's out there playing that that smooth [TS]

  jazz is it like mid-tempo this tempo [TS]

  says cool jazz that that i'm sure in the [TS]

  late sixties her mid sixties was heavy [TS]

  duty shit but even by the late seventies [TS]

  it had you know I just kept seeing a [TS]

  stephen j cannell e production you know [TS]

  likes it loose it it was it was it was [TS]

  music that i could not comprehend [TS]

  listening to let alone making and that's [TS]

  not to say that there was an amazing but [TS]

  not a thing that I could that I could [TS]

  gain any traction on and so I walked out [TS]

  onstage at some point at being pressured [TS]

  backstage by people pressure in the [TS]

  friendliest way but by someone holding a [TS]

  clipboard was like you gotta get out [TS]

  there this is part of the spirit of the [TS]

  convention you know the part of the [TS]

  spirit of the of the whole week that we [TS]

  get out and we just take risks and we [TS]

  just go for it and I want to walk out [TS]

  onstage and I get this stratocaster and [TS]

  the bandleader guy is the trumpet player [TS]

  and he looks mean he's like alright [TS]

  we're going to do something real simple [TS]

  like just a you know for bar blues and [TS]

  I'm like yeah okay for bar blues i can i [TS]

  can find some way to dig into this and [TS]

  the creatures running like a boob at the [TS]

  dam and the band starts a little talk [TS]

  about our stuff better and I'm just like [TS]

  what the fuck is this [TS]

  this is not a four bar blues in any [TS]

  world I live in and i'm sitting on the [TS]

  guitar and I'm just trying to find the [TS]

  route and yet but I even like its it i [TS]

  don't know what kids and no no no I [TS]

  think the guy shouted over to the piano [TS]

  player right before he's like are we [TS]

  going to real simple for Blue's gonna be [TS]

  just fine and it looks over the piano [TS]

  player whose blood [TS]

  and I can says what you know one key and [TS]

  the piano plays like leaves it up to the [TS]

  piano player he doesn't he should have [TS]

  looked at me and I would've been de [TS]

  pleasey pleasey you looking to get a [TS]

  player piano players like I don't know [TS]

  b-flat minor and they're like yeah I'm [TS]

  like b-flat minor I don't even my guitar [TS]

  doesn't even have that and so I'm [TS]

  sitting up there and I'm I'm just [TS]

  hunting and I can hear I mean it's fully [TS]

  jazz because every note i play is so far [TS]

  out its like the hippest note in James [TS]

  because these guys are just and that the [TS]

  reality is that none of them do know [TS]

  what they're doing in advance it's just [TS]

  a their musical language enables them to [TS]

  like hear the progression go by the only [TS]

  thing about they think about music so [TS]

  differently than we do think they might [TS]

  study theory really really hard for [TS]

  years until they never really have to [TS]

  consciously they can explain something [TS]

  with theory i don't think they think in [TS]

  theory no whereas with us you have to go [TS]

  like okay 12 45 or something like that [TS]

  yeah i think every once in a while a guy [TS]

  you know there's like there's music [TS]

  stands around and there there's like [TS]

  stuff on the music stands but it's one [TS]

  piece of paper that has 80,000 notes on [TS]

  and so everything's swell guy would [TS]

  point out a piece of paper like hey [TS]

  there it is right there [TS]

  didn't you see it and you know I look [TS]

  over at it and it's like it's like a [TS]

  Rorschach test [TS]

  that's what a guy John it sounds like a [TS]

  dream a nightmare it sounds like one of [TS]

  those like I woke up with no pants on [TS]

  the day of the math final [TS]

  so I'm standing and the only other thing [TS]

  is I'm right in the middle of the stage [TS]

  by conspicuously walked out into the [TS]

  middle of the room because that's where [TS]

  my stuff was oh the best part was I had [TS]

  sound checked this guitar and amp i [TS]

  showed up but I showed up at five when [TS]

  they said like soundcheck starts no one [TS]

  else is there except for the sound guy [TS]

  and I show up and I'm like a I'm here [TS]

  for the soundtrack and he's like yeah [TS]

  nobody else is here but they rented you [TS]

  a guitar an amp and so I stand on the [TS]

  stage and I strumming my guitar and do a [TS]

  sound check [TS]

  and I actually check a vocal mic and i'm [TS]

  thinking i don't know maybe you know [TS]

  maybe they'll be like hey play one of [TS]

  your songs and all the saxophone players [TS]

  like that will play cinnamon together or [TS]

  something so I check this rig and then [TS]

  i'm waiting around and I'm like well you [TS]

  think anybody else is gonna come he's [TS]

  like you know jazz guys they'll probably [TS]

  just show up right before the show like [TS]

  oh alright well I you know I guess i'll [TS]

  go for a walk i'll come back we think [TS]

  you might do a run through some Yeah [TS]

  Yeah right like outlets it's 24 bar [TS]

  blues let's picky so I come back and the [TS]

  guitar is out there while I walk out [TS]

  onstage you know it's the middle of the [TS]

  show you could trending toward the [TS]

  finale I walk out onstage and one of the [TS]

  other guitar players who is from [TS]

  Argentina or from Antarctica or [TS]

  something is plugged into my rig and I [TS]

  was like oh i was gonna and he's like oh [TS]

  i just plugged into that because it was [TS]

  because it was here I was like ride [TS]

  right i mean i would ya [TS]

  and we're trying to transact this on us [TS]

  on a live stage while people are like [TS]

  talking about that you know like hey [TS]

  welcome to the stage it's the guy and so [TS]

  the other guitar player says well you [TS]

  know what man I played a lot tonight any [TS]

  unplugs and hands me the cable and walks [TS]

  off the stage [TS]

  he was the one guy that I was going to [TS]

  be able to look at his instrument and [TS]

  tell one fucking note we were playing [TS]

  because the other guitar player went [TS]

  over put his guitar down and went over [TS]

  and started playing the bass playing the [TS]

  bass facing the piano player like he put [TS]

  he put the base on himself turned with [TS]

  his back to me so that he could look at [TS]

  the piano player and like jam piano [TS]

  player couldn't look back but like and [TS]

  so I'm standing on stage this point [TS]

  there's 20 people and not one stringed [TS]

  instrument except except maybe a violin [TS]

  but like not a thing that i could look [TS]

  at anybody and say like hey show me like [TS]

  you're fretting hand so I can like at [TS]

  least know [TS]

  what quadrant of the guitar work anyway [TS]

  so about 45 seconds of hunting for notes [TS]

  and I said and this and at this point [TS]

  it's just flop sweat pouring down and [TS]

  I'm standing there and inside my head [TS]

  this voice is going you fucking idiot [TS]

  you knew you never should've walked out [TS]

  on this date you never ever you should [TS]

  have said you should have you should [TS]

  have hit your hand with a hammer before [TS]

  walking out on the stage and so I turned [TS]

  the guitar i took turn the volume not [TS]

  completely off got a big smile on my [TS]

  face took a step forward and started [TS]

  just strumming the shit out of the [TS]

  things like yeah sappy dat bone bargains [TS]

  a bargain Bobby did about of a hand by [TS]

  the trumpet player looks over and like [TS]

  points to me like take a solo [TS]

  Oh God and I waved him off like like he [TS]

  had just said pitch fastball that was [TS]

  like no sir thank you big smile like [TS]

  thank you know well hot and it moved on [TS]

  you know he's just like got off me and [TS]

  went to the next guy and you know the [TS]

  next guy took like a tambourine solo for [TS]

  20 minutes and so I was just up there [TS]

  just just chicken pickin and cooking on [TS]

  my completely off guitar that's that you [TS]

  did exactly the right thing [TS]

  yeah yeah it was the only thing i could [TS]

  do and it's best for the audience to and [TS]

  ever nobody in the room could tell or [TS]

  gave a shit except you know I think [TS]

  there were a couple people there who [TS]

  came to see me or were us were like [TS]

  aware that I was playing and talk to [TS]

  them afterwards and they were both like [TS]

  that was great i mean i can really hear [TS]

  you but it was really you know seems [TS]

  like a lot of music was getting made and [TS]

  and if I had just walked out not even [TS]

  bother plugging in a guitar and had just [TS]

  like to pop up anyway so this that the [TS]

  show is over and i put the guitar down [TS]

  like I think I put the guitar down by [TS]

  the door on my way out of the stage door [TS]

  like [TS]

  I'm not hanging around here I'm not [TS]

  gonna have a cup of tea after the show I [TS]

  am out because I was just I was i think [TS]

  i was frustrated and so many times in my [TS]

  life I have been in that exact situation [TS]

  enough to have learned it will not it's [TS]

  never gonna play and yet hope springs [TS]

  eternal and that other voice the [TS]

  competing voice that says be [TS]

  experimental just get up there and just [TS]

  do it what happens at tonight's the [TS]

  night you know what if what if it all of [TS]

  the stars align and it's amazing and [TS]

  you're going to feel like an idiot if [TS]

  you're if you say no I'd better not do [TS]

  it and then the the last song they do is [TS]

  smoke on the water and and there's a [TS]

  guitar can be flat there smoke on the [TS]

  water and there's a guitar in the center [TS]

  of the stage with a spotlight on it that [TS]

  was meant for you and you didn't jump [TS]

  out and and do it you're gonna feel like [TS]

  an idiot you know that other voice [TS]

  that's like what's the matter take you [TS]

  know take a risk every once awhile goes [TS]

  for sure 10 super ego or whatever put [TS]

  you in the right place which I mean it [TS]

  as an outsider looking in [TS]

  I mean that's not your show right and [TS]

  those are the grown-ups the grown-ups [TS]

  are doing like their thing this is not [TS]

  your thing and you're a gentleman about [TS]

  doing it but that's the thing is if you [TS]

  were the star of that show if it was a [TS]

  John Roderick review and you had that [TS]

  maybe even it was the same setup you can [TS]

  find some way to go to the mic and do [TS]

  something fun and entertaining that you [TS]

  knew your audience would enjoy but [TS]

  almost anything you would have done I'm [TS]

  not being negative I'm just being honest [TS]

  almost anything you would have done [TS]

  would have been disruptive and stupid [TS]

  absolutely that's the thing if I had [TS]

  said if i walk out there and said and [TS]

  now I'd like to take down a little bit [TS]

  and play you a little song of mine [TS]

  called hindsight it would you know like [TS]

  it would have been flabbergasting and [TS]

  train wreck or just the worst and so I [TS]

  mean the ER right now the only thing I [TS]

  could have done is walk out and say [TS]

  ok I'm here now and so blues in e right [TS]

  but I was the junior partner by a factor [TS]

  of fifteen you know like I think the [TS]

  piano player with 75 and a lot of these [TS]

  people maybe they hadn't played together [TS]

  but they had played they all heard of [TS]

  one another you know like these are [TS]

  people who are giggling in a different [TS]

  realm and so anyway I walk out the back [TS]

  door the theater and I'm just like I'm [TS]

  still flop sweaty and I'm and I'm I'm [TS]

  having this argument with myself i'm [TS]

  walking down the alleys of boulder going [TS]

  like I idiot god why did you ever walk [TS]

  on that stage [TS]

  don't ever do it you know not to do it [TS]

  single role as a pro I'm saying is the [TS]

  progressive all of your friends name a [TS]

  single one of them any one of your dudes [TS]

  that does the same thing that you do [TS]

  vanderslice Zhan gibbard would any of [TS]

  them have agreed to go out onstage and [TS]

  under those conditions no not a one of [TS]

  them one of you know they would have [TS]

  said they would have said let's set up a [TS]

  separate show that's more like a [TS]

  songwriter night at one of the bars and [TS]

  I'll play a little set of songs and I [TS]

  mean I think they actually tried to do [TS]

  that and I shot it down but nobody would [TS]

  have gotten up on a stage full of jazz [TS]

  musicians and and try to like comp along [TS]

  and so I'm kicking myself and I'm mad [TS]

  and I'm just upset that I'm sitting on a [TS]

  park bench and I'm like soccer guy and [TS]

  so I do what I do [TS]

  what is naturally the thing in that [TS]

  situation which is I go on Twitter and I [TS]

  say tweetup i'm sitting on a park bench [TS]

  in boulder for the next 40 minutes [TS]

  taking myself if anybody wants to come [TS]

  say hi [TS]

  wow I don't know why I did that I never [TS]

  do I never tweet up but I was just [TS]

  sitting out there and I was like I've [TS]

  got to get out of my head I gotta get [TS]

  out of this head space because it's you [TS]

  know i'm i'm turning sour [TS]

  about a thing that doesn't really matter [TS]

  turning sour about a thing that actually [TS]

  worked out just fine and I need to just [TS]

  I don't know anybody in this town and I [TS]

  need to just like get out of get out of [TS]

  this i need to turn tonight around and [TS]

  turn the ball around and so I said you [TS]

  know tweetup and within about 10 or 15 [TS]

  minutes to people showed up [TS]

  Wow one of them was you're a good friend [TS]

  Jason that's right [TS]

  no last names no last names beginning [TS]

  with company because of the italian [TS]

  persuasion blue and he is moving to the [TS]

  west didn't know if you do that anyway [TS]

  shows up he's delightful than a young [TS]

  woman shows up she's delightful we're [TS]

  all meeting for the first time and then [TS]

  as we're sitting on the park bench [TS]

  talking car goes by and as it goes by [TS]

  the rear tire comes off I mean the rear [TS]

  wheel comes off and the car like its [TS]

  lands on its axle and start scraping a [TS]

  big lincoln continental and so then then [TS]

  of course that attracts all the Juggalos [TS]

  that hang out downtown because there's [TS]

  like flames and the cops are there any [TS]

  the let's look for it [TS]

  please do as soon as you're scraping [TS]

  metal on metal the Juggalos come out of [TS]

  all the doorways so it ended up being a [TS]

  very positive night and it was just [TS]

  pulled that out of your ass but now just [TS]

  the image of several dozen people in [TS]

  makeup like looking a little tentative [TS]

  at first look like kind of Raccoon [TS]

  looking around your way then [TS]

  like a moth to LA yeah they're just like [TS]

  what is that something is that scraping [TS]

  their little heads poking around the [TS]

  doors i can i can i can be free like [TS]

  fire so but it was it was it was a case [TS]

  of by the end of that night when I was [TS]

  finally walking home I felt there I felt [TS]

  very light [TS]

  I felt very I felt that all was right [TS]

  with the world and i think it was that I [TS]

  reached out who reached out to humanity [TS]

  and said now I think it was taking a [TS]

  risk if I had said I've had said I'm [TS]

  gonna be sitting on a park bench for 40 [TS]

  minutes and and I just heard crickets it [TS]

  was just me watching the Juggalos I [TS]

  would have been even more bummed out but [TS]

  two wonderful people showed up out of [TS]

  the gloom and it was great [TS]

  yeah it's not like the nature of your [TS]

  frustration i will be obviously the the [TS]

  experience of going out there and you [TS]

  know ue manned up and you did it but it [TS]

  sounds like you're you're he said as [TS]

  much that it's mainly it's the decision [TS]

  to have gone out with the bad decision [TS]

  yeah you save you saved it from being [TS]

  something that was you know bad for the [TS]

  audience and humiliating to the band why [TS]

  not you know [TS]

  noodling along but you think you should [TS]

  have just said no thank you know the [TS]

  it's a kind of like like at a certain [TS]

  point of self-knowledge and I obviously [TS]

  like I have certain insecurities about [TS]

  not being like like almost any musician [TS]

  would of not being up to whatever the [TS]

  game is and a lot of these guys and when [TS]

  I ended up on a on a on a panel a much [TS]

  larger panel with some of these cats and [TS]

  it came around to me and they're all [TS]

  talking about like yeah man you know you [TS]

  just get to play with people you just [TS]

  tripped and it's amazing and zappity do [TS]

  and it came to me and I said [TS]

  unfortunately i come from a school of [TS]

  thought that that spent a lot of time of [TS]

  the spent many years really pretty [TS]

  pretty solidly feeling like soloing [TS]

  wasn't was an active egotism and even [TS]

  colonialism like this the school of [TS]

  music that I came up in nobody soloed [TS]

  nobody took a solo at all only certainly [TS]

  kind of like ironically ironic solos at [TS]

  yes and those were intentionally bad or [TS]

  intentionally like I mean basically [TS]

  mocking and ends up men punk rock girl [TS]

  kinda solo yeah like it deliberately [TS]

  sort of like wackadoodle thing [TS]

  well and you know my live shows often [TS]

  have big solos then that I would love [TS]

  that i would love to be playing [TS]

  earnestly but for for a long time played [TS]

  those big solos [TS]

  ironically i confess that i did that was [TS]

  the way that I that I was a lab that i [TS]

  allowed myself to do it i mean my [TS]

  bandmates would be sitting like openly [TS]

  scoffing at me as i took my big comedy [TS]

  rock soul and so you know i'm sitting on [TS]

  this panel and I'm like unfortunately [TS]

  for me I i come from a school where we [TS]

  feel like soloing is a bourgeois who and [TS]

  you can have the cats feel you could [TS]

  hear a pin drop you know and of course [TS]

  this is a this is a scene where it's a [TS]

  multiracial group of musicians and like [TS]

  jazz is the jazz is the path or whatever [TS]

  and I'm sitting there saying that the [TS]

  act of soloing is bourgeois and it's [TS]

  just like okay I mean I felt like a [TS]

  member of gang of four all the sudden [TS]

  not the band rather the real anyway uh [TS]

  so by the end of the week it was I had [TS]

  come full circle right guy had made a [TS]

  circle [TS]

  it's not that I had come full circle but [TS]

  I had at least traced back to the [TS]

  beginning but the idea that you the idea [TS]

  that you know what you are good at and [TS]

  that you that you set limits about what [TS]

  other people set limits about how you [TS]

  will be pressured into like singing at [TS]

  somebody's wedding or you know a long [TS]

  time ago i said i don't do karaoke and [TS]

  and yet if I'm at somebody's wedding and [TS]

  they pay me a microphone ago come on [TS]

  everybody's drunk you know i would i [TS]

  would generally say no unless it was the [TS]

  bride ask him but this was that but but [TS]

  again you can't do that because there [TS]

  are those moments where you say yes all [TS]

  right i'll do it and it ends up being [TS]

  the greatest night of your life so [TS]

  it's it's just one of those like I think [TS]

  it's it is just life in a nutshell what [TS]

  you're describing something that I I've [TS]

  really struggled with at a higher level [TS]

  that gets either instances of this that [TS]

  are specific to the kind of thing you're [TS]

  talking about but you know you talk [TS]

  about two very different things on the [TS]

  one hand you know one of the myths of [TS]

  getting married is that it's the bride's [TS]

  day it is the bride's day the bright I [TS]

  mean that is the Bride the bride a lot [TS]

  of those women have been thinking about [TS]

  that day the whole life and have real [TS]

  particular ideas that should be honored [TS]

  and we're all there you know but the [TS]

  ones who actually in the machinery once [TS]

  your arm is actually in the gears you [TS]

  realize that it is all about other [TS]

  people so you know what if the bride [TS]

  wants you to sing a song that's a nice [TS]

  thing and you can see doing that now you [TS]

  put me straight straight down the memory [TS]

  hole about a conference that my old [TS]

  internet advertising group put on and [TS]

  there was at the time a very powerful [TS]

  group it was the kind of the boutique [TS]

  like you know we were making see pm's [TS]

  three four five times or anybody else is [TS]

  making well it was sometimes big time to [TS]

  time any time when our ads loaded it [TS]

  made a ton more money than anybody else [TS]

  can even touch this very prestigious and [TS]

  and run by a very famous guy and and of [TS]

  course they said no seriously what is [TS]

  the CPM Oh cost per thousand views it's [TS]

  just it's just a way of quantifying like [TS]

  what you charge based on you know how [TS]

  does thousand views equal em in [TS]

  medication at em like a thousand i think [TS]

  Oh cost per mil something like that cost [TS]

  per meal but you know I went to this [TS]

  thing I was very happy to be involved in [TS]

  the group was a great moneymaker they're [TS]

  great people is very like it was it was [TS]

  nice to even be invited to be in the [TS]

  group let alone be invited to say hey [TS]

  you know a lot of our advertisers are [TS]

  coming to this conference all the other [TS]

  you know publishers are going to be [TS]

  there but you know nothing against these [TS]

  guys but like I one of the reasons i [TS]

  ended up leaving this particular group [TS]

  is because they were doing more and more [TS]

  of what has now become completely ok [TS]

  which is like having a post on your site [TS]

  that sponsored by somebody or you know [TS]

  and I actually kind of i gave way as you [TS]

  say left a lot of money on the table [TS]

  because I just couldn't do that anymore [TS]

  and even like the one or two times I did [TS]

  it I felt so dirty because that's just [TS]

  I'm stupid and old and that's how my [TS]

  mind works [TS]

  I don't think that's right even today it [TS]

  really irks me when I see sites where [TS]

  especially if they don't announce its a [TS]

  sponsored post like its any you know [TS]

  what I mean right you know you know this [TS]

  feeling of what I do you know hey here's [TS]

  the deal you know if this car company [TS]

  wants to use my song and add pay me [TS]

  appropriately but nobody's ever going to [TS]

  confuse this song with this car and [TS]

  think that you know what I mean it's [TS]

  theirs separate things by this t-shirt [TS]

  you get a t-shirt I get money these are [TS]

  clear transactions that make sense yeah [TS]

  that's the thing but all that because [TS]

  all those sites are purporting to be [TS]

  also generating like content that is [TS]

  independent or even journalistic that's [TS]

  that's the word is in one reason a lot [TS]

  of us really relish the rise of things [TS]

  like blogs and now today podcast as a [TS]

  thing was that you got to make you know [TS]

  you were always I always find myself [TS]

  calling up Jonathan Coulton but he's no [TS]

  longer unique in this regard somebody in [TS]

  the way I phrased to Jonathan you know [TS]

  when we very first met I said what I [TS]

  admire about you is that you're [TS]

  circumspect about who's allowed to fuck [TS]

  your shit up for almost no money and [TS]

  I've always been there since I still got [TS]

  a little smarter about this i would get [TS]

  i would start to feel from a monetary [TS]

  standpoint like don't just let people to [TS]

  frame you in a certain way unless you [TS]

  really understand what you're accepting [TS]

  and you know you're actually kind of [TS]

  giving away part of yourself when you [TS]

  let other people decide who you are and [TS]

  then put you under the rubric of their [TS]

  brand for example so anyway long story [TS]

  short I could feel the the the kind of [TS]

  the velocity of this group was getting [TS]

  more and more into stuff for like mommy [TS]

  bloggers would just have something [TS]

  sponsored for a year and they go on [TS]

  trips sponsored by computer companies [TS]

  and stuff and I just that gave me the [TS]

  fear a little bit i show up at this [TS]

  thing where I think I'm mostly going to [TS]

  have to sit one of those round tables [TS]

  with a pad of paper and picture water [TS]

  and smiling and applied and stuff like [TS]

  that I find out I'm gonna be on a panel [TS]

  after the announcement I'm going to be [TS]

  on a panel i don't know any other I [TS]

  don't think I knew any of [TS]

  of the other people on the panel and if [TS]

  I get it was only by reputation and it [TS]

  wasn't good and was basically I was up [TS]

  there with one person who had a blog [TS]

  about celebrity babies flash she wrote [TS]

  it was a she but she wrote about the [TS]

  baby products of celebrities with [TS]

  affiliate links and how that was growing [TS]

  in another person talking about how they [TS]

  were hiring people you know and this is [TS]

  me being a one-person guy with one [TS]

  person site where i run the server and [TS]

  everything and there's people that are [TS]

  talking about hiring people in Australia [TS]

  so you can have people posting around [TS]

  the clock and I i got up there and I [TS]

  said the best like that you know i think [TS]

  i ended up being a little bit of a karma [TS]

  sakai I didn't so I first of all I made [TS]

  the mistake that you made which is I [TS]

  agreed to do it when I thought I really [TS]

  shouldn't do it but I felt obligated did [TS]

  feeling someone's like the bride was [TS]

  asking me the same sure you are you got [TS]

  thing and I mean I don't want to be [TS]

  disrespectful but I didn't really know [TS]

  what I was in for and then once I got up [TS]

  there I think I being me especially me [TS]

  of like six or eight years ago I said [TS]

  some things that were slightly at odds [TS]

  with everybody else up there said they [TS]

  were hoping you were gonna say like I [TS]

  saw a lot of cameras through my site buy [TS]

  a fucking camera you think this video [TS]

  tutorials are free doesn't buy a camera [TS]

  by a fucking camera click on that link [TS]

  you're stealing from me but anyway I [TS]

  just you know I'm sorry this is a [TS]

  derailment like I don't know there's [TS]

  something about that and again it's why [TS]

  I i'm not saying people like you know [TS]

  whatever doing perfect but people out [TS]

  there who are very reluctant to let [TS]

  other people frame them and if you do [TS]

  license the song you understand what it [TS]

  is that your licensing you're treating [TS]

  this like a business you're treating [TS]

  this like this thing and you're never [TS]

  you know when people try to pay you and [TS]

  compliments i know you have feelings [TS]

  about this could try to pay incompetent [TS]

  people try to pay you and reputation [TS]

  like nobody ever offers you that stuff [TS]

  unless they're gonna get more out of it [TS]

  than you will and they take a little [TS]

  tiny piece of you with them when you do [TS]

  that so I still you can tell this has [TS]

  been like whatever six or eight years [TS]

  and I'm still sitting like my toadstool [TS]

  feel like a dick that I got up there and [TS]

  had to explain my position alongside [TS]

  somebody who has affiliate links to [TS]

  celebrity baby products right right [TS]

  Kanye and what enables him you know her [TS]

  brother's not going to their wedding [TS]

  because heavy i was writing and I don't [TS]

  know why I ever [TS]

  look at news site and I was on BuzzFeed [TS]

  today looking at 25 people that are dead [TS]

  person what happens next should be dead [TS]

  that's all pictures of people in [TS]

  skateboard crashes and I was but yeah I [TS]

  was talking to a friend the other day [TS]

  and I was like what do you know what do [TS]

  you really want to do we really want to [TS]

  do and she said I don't know I you know [TS]

  I kind of you know like how do you [TS]

  become a travel writer she says I was [TS]

  like well what kind of travel writer do [TS]

  you mean somebody who writes for glossy [TS]

  magazines where they never ever ever say [TS]

  anything bad about a hotel right like [TS]

  those people have a job those people [TS]

  okay how to get to write the top ten [TS]

  steakhouses in America for an in-flight [TS]

  magazine example you started advertising [TS]

  company those people are published those [TS]

  are out there is different but they're [TS]

  not actually articles but there are [TS]

  magazines all around the world there [TS]

  there's stacks and stacks of magazines [TS]

  you could build the foundation of a [TS]

  house with all the magazines that are [TS]

  that basically our PR people writing [TS]

  glowing review so much more than people [TS]

  and even smart people I think have no [TS]

  idea how heavily I mean obviously any [TS]

  fashion magazine any travel magazine [TS]

  that's that's nothing gets in there [TS]

  unless there is some money associated [TS]

  with it right when was the last time you [TS]

  read a review of a really expensive [TS]

  hotel that was basically like fear [TS]

  loathing in las vegas i walked into this [TS]

  hotel and the first thing I smelled was [TS]

  blood like 10 when when do you ever read [TS]

  travel actual travel writer you hardly [TS]

  ever do you think maybe finding an [TS]

  independent blog maybe you find it on an [TS]

  independent blog but those people are [TS]

  not making a living presumably they're [TS]

  not there obviously are they're clearly [TS]

  not being flown around and they're not [TS]

  they're not being compensated for its [TS]

  not like a Lester Bangs type situation [TS]

  where they're being compensated for [TS]

  their personality in describing this [TS]

  travel experience right like I don't [TS]

  think Rolling Stone has a travel guy on [TS]

  staff whose job is to just go out and [TS]

  just write about his the shitty gets [TS]

  into and she said well what about the [TS]

  new york times magazine Travel section [TS]

  and I was like what about it like that [TS]

  like those people perceive their job to [TS]

  be that they go find interesting [TS]

  experiences and package them [TS]

  automatically and then and then get the [TS]

  the part that seems so obviously I'm a [TS]

  really good writer [TS]

  I would be perfect for that right right [TS]

  oh yeah i mean that's great and you [TS]

  should yeah you should work for an [TS]

  advertising company because it means [TS]

  like oh 25 spas in the Seychelles that [TS]

  you know that don't have long lines it's [TS]

  like what kind of writing is that I i [TS]

  read a lot of anecdotes over the years [TS]

  that i've got i've heard the cds this [TS]

  same flavor of this one kind of [TS]

  anecdotal I am I feeling about it is [TS]

  really changed in the basic anecdote is [TS]

  this super fan goes up to super creator [TS]

  it could be comics could be both good [TS]

  movies they go up they go up to the [TS]

  person and say you know how do I become [TS]

  a best selling comic book writer or [TS]

  whatever and the person basically looks [TS]

  at them straight in the eye and says if [TS]

  you have to ask that question one then [TS]

  you know insert answer here you're an [TS]

  idiot or you've never really thought [TS]

  about that question or you've never [TS]

  actually tried to do it if you have to [TS]

  ask that question then I can't help you [TS]

  it's kind of like asking how I become [TS]

  president the united states what's [TS]

  actually in some ways extremely easy to [TS]

  become president of the United States if [TS]

  you meet the criteria and you get the [TS]

  Electoral College victory you become [TS]

  president but how do you get to that [TS]

  point [TS]

  well boy sit down bring up and bring a [TS]

  bag lunch because there's a long road to [TS]

  getting to that point already too late [TS]

  for you yeah well there's that one [TS]

  gateway at the end where you see you get [TS]

  your coronation and you get your sash [TS]

  and a parade but like you know I think [TS]

  most people like in the case of become a [TS]

  travel writer for The New York Times I [TS]

  mean ask the thousands of people who [TS]

  have tried to get that job before right [TS]

  right well and and and there is this [TS]

  mmm and again I mean I hate to have to [TS]

  put everything on the shoulders of [TS]

  elizabeth gilbert I wasn't good but yeah [TS]

  there is this the this whole culture of [TS]

  manifesting like it its it puts this [TS]

  that's why there are so many freaking [TS]

  photographers now like what do you want [TS]

  to do with your life [TS]

  I think I want to be a photographer [TS]

  and I'll just manifest that and now i'm [TS]

  a photographer like wow you are a [TS]

  photographer you take pictures but like [TS]

  to be to be a photographer of that kind [TS]

  it's just like being a videographer or [TS]

  AA in a I mean a landscape architect a [TS]

  lot of it is just code for like my dad [TS]

  is rich with your videographer faithful [TS]

  yeah right you know [TS]

  yeah and-and-and with you if you don't [TS]

  have if you don't have a rich dad if [TS]

  you're not just looking for a cool thing [TS]

  to justify your time on earth but are [TS]

  really looking for a job I think you [TS]

  should I think you should cross travel [TS]

  writer off of the list of fantasy jobs [TS]

  because or replace it with but publicity [TS]

  flac great because it's because the idea [TS]

  that you have like jet-setting around [TS]

  with a series of like silk scarves [TS]

  billowing in the wind as you visit [TS]

  five-star hotels and give them glowing [TS]

  reviews but have but retain your like [TS]

  personal integrity one of those things [TS]

  is going to have to go in and look this [TS]

  is this is really the old man and me [TS]

  talking but the this is a question the [TS]

  very few i'll just say young people or [TS]

  90 people are people who haven't had [TS]

  enough experience yet there's a question [TS]

  very few people asked which is what [TS]

  industry can I go into we're working and [TS]

  probably hard and never taking no for an [TS]

  answer and looking for every opportunity [TS]

  and sacrificing everything would be a [TS]

  good choice for me because that's the [TS]

  answer to a lot of these is you can do a [TS]

  lot of things but you very rarely i [TS]

  don't turn us into another show but like [TS]

  you very rarely end up in this one place [TS]

  that you saw when you didn't understand [TS]

  the business yet unless unless you [TS]

  understand like how people he is still [TS]

  very rarely get it but you might end up [TS]

  becoming one of the best copywriters by [TS]

  starting out wanting to be a tel [TS]

  television writer [TS]

  it's just that you never know like which [TS]

  opportunities going to come along and [TS]

  they all come down to like an [TS]

  extraordinary amount of sacrifice [TS]

  including the sacrifice of some kind of [TS]

  pie in the sky dream you had that was [TS]

  never never really a sane goal because [TS]

  you didn't really understand what the [TS]

  job was you have to just go out and work [TS]

  really hard for a long time to get [TS]

  anything I mean you don't mean that's [TS]

  not to say work hard because like you're [TS]

  working in a mine but you do have to [TS]

  have this tenacious personality of like [TS]

  getting back on the horse over and over [TS]

  and over even though there's no money in [TS]

  it for a long time and and you know just [TS]

  waiting around for the new york times to [TS]

  call you is like a pretty long shot but [TS]

  what does Dan Benjamin usually say in [TS]

  these moments that's let's say about [TS]

  something I liked this episode of rock [TS]

  on the line is sponsored by Squarespace [TS]

  the only one platform that makes it fast [TS]

  and easy to create your own professional [TS]

  website portfolio or online store [TS]

  believe me John and I know where we [TS]

  speak we have hosted Roderick on the [TS]

  line with squarespace since the very [TS]

  beginning episodes 0 and they've been [TS]

  great [TS]

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  which i highly recommend also every plan [TS]

  comes with the ability to create your [TS]

  own online store so yeah you can sell [TS]

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  thanks to squarespace for supporting rod [TS]

  online we could not do it without yeah [TS]

  but they're right obviously the thing [TS]

  the thing is that if you have that [TS]

  personality you wouldn't bc wouldn't be [TS]

  sitting around dreaming about being a [TS]

  travel that's such a disappointing [TS]

  answer that because it really does sound [TS]

  like every piece of bullshit you've ever [TS]

  heard from everybody in your family [TS]

  because you know the other advice you [TS]

  hear that I mean you'll hear that advice [TS]

  often from people like me lit from [TS]

  failures like me who were like well I [TS]

  thought that was going to be really easy [TS]

  to and you know now I'm laid off from [TS]

  the auto parts factory or whatever [TS]

  look at the concept that that that I [TS]

  think intruder like your polluted [TS]

  water is that they're there really is [TS]

  maybe more than any time since the [TS]

  Renaissance in Florence there is this [TS]

  sense of patrons and a magic money magic [TS]

  income streams that if you that that [TS]

  it's very hard to it's very hard to [TS]

  perceive like we're the center of the [TS]

  stream is but if you can stumble along [TS]

  if you can bumble into a situation where [TS]

  some billionaire decides that you're his [TS]

  pet project or or somebody like see [TS]

  somebody sort of innocuously seeds a [TS]

  reference to their product into your [TS]

  content in a way that did that you feel [TS]

  doesn't diminish the content but they [TS]

  are rich person and they believe their [TS]

  subliminal advertising is really [TS]

  effective and they are willing to pay [TS]

  mightily for it or you know the the idea [TS]

  that there's all this money out there [TS]

  that is essentially three money and you [TS]

  just have to be in the right place at [TS]

  the right time and tap into it you just [TS]

  have to write and and this is that the [TS]

  one you when you go on a cruise and you [TS]

  become aware that the cruise lines and [TS]

  the watch companies and the perfume [TS]

  companies and the people who run this [TS]

  the duty-free stores and the liquor [TS]

  companies are all in bed with each other [TS]

  and not a single rolex gets old [TS]

  where every one of those people doesn't [TS]

  take a cut of it you know it's just [TS]

  deciding which brand of shampoo is going [TS]

  to be in your hotel room you can eat so [TS]

  many meetings went into that bottle of [TS]

  shampoo that's right and and nobody is [TS]

  getting there's you know nobody's [TS]

  getting rich [TS]

  everybody is getting a little percentage [TS]

  of it up a little percentage of [TS]

  promoting the idea that that everybody's [TS]

  rich and that the luxury brands are [TS]

  are perfectly appropriate and so forth [TS]

  there are people with tons and tons of [TS]

  money there are people with more money [TS]

  than you know what to do with and every [TS]

  once in a while somebody does get their [TS]

  kickstarter-funded a hundred thousand [TS]

  percent more than they asked or every [TS]

  once in a while somebody does kinda hit [TS]

  a jackpot or work on work on a project [TS]

  and then they forget about it and oh it [TS]

  turns out that there are part owners of [TS]

  a big thing or spray painted a freaking [TS]

  mural on the wall of the facebook [TS]

  startup and got paid in shares you know [TS]

  there are enough of those stories that [TS]

  it just gets into the subconscious of [TS]

  the culture in a way that I've got a lot [TS]

  of people and myself included are kind [TS]

  of walking around like not it's not it's [TS]

  not where's my parade it's like where's [TS]

  my payday and I might just been this one [TS]

  spot this one time like the rain would [TS]

  have fallen on me [TS]

  yeah I would have gotten that I could [TS]

  have fucking spray painted a mural on [TS]

  the facebook wall if I knew that it was [TS]

  going to be a better bet that be worth [TS]

  300 million dollars and though those [TS]

  that little tickle of of feeling like [TS]

  it's really just a it's really just a [TS]

  question of like riding the elevator [TS]

  with the right person and on the other [TS]

  end of the elevator ride we're shaking [TS]

  hands and he's saying my people are [TS]

  going to call you [TS]

  you know that that that the meta cheese [TS]

  are going to fund your little your [TS]

  little student sculpture studio or [TS]

  whatever and I don't know how that it's [TS]

  that is part of the in a way part of [TS]

  them the lottery culture that's kind of [TS]

  magical thinking its total magical [TS]

  thinking and and yet there really is it [TS]

  happens every once in awhile there [TS]

  really is that [TS]

  yeah there's a phenomenon behind a lot [TS]

  of the the shitty turns out social [TS]

  psychology work in social psychology [TS]

  journalism that I find very interesting [TS]

  called the file drawer effect which is [TS]

  you know think this way [TS]

  yeah which is like how much of this [TS]

  research did you not include in your [TS]

  study because it didn't meet your the [TS]

  results that you wanted differently if i [TS]

  flip a coin a hundred times and it lands [TS]

  heads up 51 percent of the time if I [TS]

  throw out thirty percent of the times [TS]

  that landed tales that really makes it [TS]

  look like i can get heads more often but [TS]

  you're you're effectively cheating in [TS]

  that sense and and I don't recall this [TS]

  cheating but in the sense that like it's [TS]

  very popular today to talk about like [TS]

  what you've learned from your failures [TS]

  but like nobody asked what you learn [TS]

  from your failures for something from [TS]

  somebody who hasn't had a big success [TS]

  so you don't hear all the times that [TS]

  somebody that somebody got in the [TS]

  elevator with a messy and it didn't turn [TS]

  out with funding sculpture studio those [TS]

  stories don't get out and and when they [TS]

  do they're only it's only because [TS]

  somebody's talking that person because [TS]

  they succeeded i'm not saying don't try [TS]

  but i am saying like don't look at your [TS]

  life is a game of kino where you just [TS]

  keep waiting for this thing to come [TS]

  along that's going to bring you up to [TS]

  the same bar of success that all these [TS]

  other people got so easily because the [TS]

  only got it easily after having stuff [TS]

  happened that was not easy i was [TS]

  thinking about this the other day I went [TS]

  to school with a bunch of computer [TS]

  science majors in the late eighties and [TS]

  they were studying computer maths and [TS]

  they were designing programs that were [TS]

  impenetrable with with really really bad [TS]

  user interfaces you know all the all the [TS]

  exact same stuff that made certain [TS]

  people millionaires and I haven't talked [TS]

  to these friends and I've been quite a [TS]

  while but I i knew a whole handful of [TS]

  guys and like none of them are I don't [TS]

  think millionaires [TS]

  and realizing that even in my own life I [TS]

  have I have the experience because there [TS]

  are times when I walk around and think [TS]

  God if I had just gone into computer [TS]

  science and eighties over I'd be a [TS]

  millionaire now and then I I I just had [TS]

  this kind of corrective realization that [TS]

  like women I basically knew all the [TS]

  people in computer science at this one [TS]

  college and we were all pals we were [TS]

  like we were like Tetris buddies and and [TS]

  stoner pals and I don't think any of [TS]

  them are millionaires and they are still [TS]

  working in computer science like most [TS]

  people who were working in computer [TS]

  science and the eighties didn't become [TS]

  millionaires like most people don't [TS]

  become millionaires and the and just as [TS]

  you're saying like the the people that [TS]

  do get all the get all the attention and [TS]

  it and over time the accumulative effect [TS]

  is that everybody's a millionaire but me [TS]

  and it gets reinforced because then you [TS]

  start looking for examples of that to [TS]

  add to your sad portfolio to do is go on [TS]

  a cruise and it's like who the hell are [TS]

  buying all these rolex watches right [TS]

  right gotta be all the millions that [TS]

  aren't me [TS]

  it's gotta be everybody else that's a [TS]

  millionaire i texted me last night for [TS]

  no particular reason and see if you [TS]

  haven't watched just going to be dick [TS]

  pics continued on next photo has a wide [TS]

  aperture it's macro lens i don't i [TS]

  watched the first season of deadwood [TS]

  yeah did you but i didn't i didn't make [TS]

  it to the second season of I forgot like [TS]

  how good that show stay I I what I what [TS]

  I remember about that show is that I've [TS]

  watched the first five episodes in [TS]

  particular probably five times I've [TS]

  watched it all the way through once and [TS]

  i watched it through the first couple [TS]

  seasons at least twice so I've come now [TS]

  the hbos on the amazon prime [TS]

  i'm up to like the fourth episode of [TS]

  season 2 in a week but you know it's but [TS]

  that that's that's kinda what you're [TS]

  talking about here in some ways it's you [TS]

  know it's like that old it's the old [TS]

  joke about you know gosh in all these [TS]

  transactions the only people who really [TS]

  make sustainable money not a lottery not [TS]

  want [TS]

  lottery not a one-day lucky shot the [TS]

  people who made the sustained make the [TS]

  sustainable money today our lawyers [TS]

  because lawyers will always make money [TS]

  off the cost of other people's [TS]

  transactions financial people same way [TS]

  and in that case as he said so many [TS]

  times whether it's san francisco or [TS]

  Comstock or Deadwood it's the people who [TS]

  sold the equipment that got rich it's [TS]

  not just people who are selling the [TS]

  five-dollar gallons of milk [TS]

  it's not the people across the board if [TS]

  you look at the actual numbers i would [TS]

  bet you that there's most people who [TS]

  made the most money or probably there [TS]

  are few lucky people and then they're [TS]

  extremely lucky people early on and then [TS]

  there was the Mutual's and then there [TS]

  was the people who sold the pans and [TS]

  sold the shovels in the pics that that's [TS]

  the sustaining money because even if you [TS]

  get one lightning strike from energy [TS]

  that doesn't mean it's going to be there [TS]

  in the case like you know the thing is [TS]

  if somebody comes to your earlier travel [TS]

  blog and says hey we'd like to insert [TS]

  these positive reviews of things you may [TS]

  not even realize that they're in their [TS]

  experiment they're doing that same [TS]

  experiment with 500 other sites because [TS]

  it's not that costly for them and after [TS]

  a month to figure out who got the best [TS]

  results and suddenly your lightning goes [TS]

  away and then you're like you're going [TS]

  what happened I thought I I thought I [TS]

  hit the lottery but that's how it works [TS]

  like nobody gives you money unless they [TS]

  will think that they think they're [TS]

  making more benefit than what they're [TS]

  giving to you and you forget that your [TS]

  peril [TS]

  yeah the city of seattle is a city built [TS]

  on the crushed dreams of a thousand [TS]

  other crushed dreams of of a hundred [TS]

  thousand people who headed up to the [TS]

  Yukon to get rich in the goldfields is [TS]

  that like one of the last places we kid [TS]

  gets a prize they'll give you there [TS]

  yeah Seattle of like Seattle sent all [TS]

  the goods up to the Yukon and collected [TS]

  all the gold like the when you when you [TS]

  if you did if you were in the small [TS]

  handful of people that actually struck [TS]

  it rich up there or made their got gold [TS]

  you take that gold down to the to the [TS]

  little pop-up general store and then [TS]

  that guy would wait on his scale and put [TS]

  it in a bag and send it by dog sled down [TS]

  to Lake Bennett or whatever where they [TS]

  would put it on a paddle boat and take [TS]

  it to the train and eventually it would [TS]

  make it in to seattle you know this was [TS]

  where the cold came [TS]

  and like the filson company was built [TS]

  with originally to send close up to the [TS]

  gold miners and the holes the whole city [TS]

  I mean Alaska Alaska is what built [TS]

  Seattle trying to trying to exploit [TS]

  Alaska but like none of the none of the [TS]

  names that ring out from that era our [TS]

  names of miners 50 they're all names and [TS]

  you might get this half-assed named [TS]

  after you died I know even the passes [TS]

  are named like Stampede pass dead miner [TS]

  path but black and horseface pass know [TS]

  all the names that ring out or the [TS]

  bankers the shopkeepers the but yeah the [TS]

  gold pan sellers that they are the there [TS]

  the the ones who have their names on [TS]

  buildings and the miners [TS]

  I mean by the time most of the miners [TS]

  arrived at the gold was all claimed that [TS]

  as they say that's right and so let's [TS]

  forget cocksuckers it just became it [TS]

  just became like Oh are a rush town of [TS]

  people spending their last dollar [TS]

  spending the last dollar that they that [TS]

  they received from back from Boston [TS]

  outfitting themselves like a dude in all [TS]

  the latest gear and and when he's [TS]

  sipping it then that sets up and make [TS]

  they you know they get it they lose it [TS]

  all in a poker game right and then [TS]

  they're like you know have to wire home [TS]

  for the money they to get a trainer [TS]

  one-way ticket back that's why there's a [TS]

  couple things that I I mean it's cool [TS]

  that you watch tonight there's a couple [TS]

  things in again rewatching for the [TS]

  millionth time that that made me think [TS]

  of you and I mean one of the things is [TS]

  basically all of the characters [TS]

  yes yes but not the obscenity or [TS]

  anything but just love the elevated [TS]

  language of course but the but just the [TS]

  kind of the ethics of the town and the [TS]

  importance of honor and the importance [TS]

  of sort of doing doing what you say [TS]

  you're going to do and doing it within [TS]

  the affair [TS]

  mature is it as as weird and primitive [TS]

  as the culture is it is amateur culture [TS]

  where you know without anybody having to [TS]

  tell you like you don't fuck without [TS]

  Swearengen like you just you get that [TS]

  pretty quick you know you get that you [TS]

  can shit on this part of the road but [TS]

  you sure better not shit on that part of [TS]

  the road and nobody has to write that [TS]

  down in a book and a lot of pushback you [TS]

  know there's to the whole first season [TS]

  especially as always push back a big [TS]

  what happens in the United States comes [TS]

  in and this qualifies all these claims [TS]

  as being illegal you know and starting [TS]

  over and but and that was one part of it [TS]

  but also the internet just a whole one [TS]

  thing it's so great through every [TS]

  episode is like nothing is easy in the [TS]

  town this there's something like you're [TS]

  going to buy something you have to deal [TS]

  with somebody in the case like the first [TS]

  few episodes that they can't even buy [TS]

  what they want to buy they can't buy the [TS]

  land to build their store and I just I [TS]

  love the idea of like everyday being [TS]

  this constant struggle of like fucked up [TS]

  bureaucratic overhead even though [TS]

  there's no rule book that everything you [TS]

  do is you're going to have to like buy [TS]

  you'd like to say the same roach in the [TS]

  same biscuit like everyday and I don't [TS]

  know the reason that seems like that [TS]

  would appeal to eat well and what's [TS]

  great about a show like that and and i [TS]

  guess i'm in a town like that is that [TS]

  they're always microcosms of of the big [TS]

  of the big world the big picture [TS]

  this is kind of what i always say to [TS]

  people who come up to me with conspiracy [TS]

  theories like elaborate conspiracy [TS]

  theories when you look at when you look [TS]

  at deadwood and you realize like Al [TS]

  Swearengen is intent in charge of the [TS]

  town and everybody is terrified of him [TS]

  but it's a lot of work to be elsewhere [TS]

  engine it's very stressful it's [TS]

  incredibly stressful and people are [TS]

  fucking up on your behalf of all the [TS]

  time and you are constantly mad and [TS]

  you're out there i have to deal with [TS]

  this [TS]

  yeah you're out there killing people [TS]

  that need to be killed but you don't you [TS]

  know you very seldom really relish it [TS]

  it's just it's just work you've got to [TS]

  do to maintain your position because if [TS]

  you don't do it [TS]

  there's all these little grubby rats [TS]

  around your ankles that are waiting for [TS]

  you to slip up and from the perspective [TS]

  of like somebody who's scraping by in [TS]

  the town [TS]

  Al Swearengen seems like he's got it [TS]

  made and elsewhere engine seems like [TS]

  he's the he's in charge everything in [TS]

  his invisible hand is everywhere but [TS]

  from Al Swearengen 'he's perspective [TS]

  it's a shit ton of work he didn't ask [TS]

  for it and he then he perceives it to be [TS]

  his duty to maintain a certain kind of [TS]

  order etc center and when you [TS]

  extrapolate that out and you realize [TS]

  that all of the all of the International [TS]

  systems more or less are just giant [TS]

  extrapolations of that right for from [TS]

  from remove it seems like this great [TS]

  opportunity but it's not pretty rickety [TS]

  always this is website Oliver coming to [TS]

  town to suddenly disrupt the whole idea [TS]

  yeah it's not leadership yeah [TS]

  and-and-and when you think about like oh [TS]

  the that the Trilateral Commission is [TS]

  running the running the world or [TS]

  whatever they're they're all these [TS]

  secret rooms where men are making secret [TS]

  plans and the reality is there are [TS]

  people sitting around in in those rooms [TS]

  they are making plans but there isn't [TS]

  there isn't this additional level of [TS]

  intention behind a further curtain like [TS]

  they are just guys who are improvising [TS]

  and they have power but they don't have [TS]

  unlimited power right and it don't have [TS]

  enduring power that always evidence is [TS]

  itself in the same way right if there is [TS]

  no great-great-grandson [TS]

  great-great-grandson Rothschild who has [TS]

  always been moving his grandfather was [TS]

  moving the levers and he is moving the [TS]

  levers and we are all being slowly [TS]

  poisoned by our water bottles [TS]

  it's just that everybody is everybody is [TS]

  scrambling and improvising too to keep [TS]

  keep the ball moving sort of [TS]

  incrementally and and ultimately [TS]

  stupidly that that if human beings were [TS]

  smart enough to [TS]

  to keep even the smallest conspiracy a [TS]

  secret and alive for longer than half a [TS]

  generation [TS]

  yeah you know we would be what with the [TS]

  evidence would be everywhere the [TS]

  evidence would be everywhere that we [TS]

  were that the world actually ran that [TS]

  way but in fact the evidence is [TS]

  everywhere that we are just that the [TS]

  streets are full of shit and we are just [TS]

  trying to walk from one solution to the [TS]

  next without getting in a gunfight you [TS]

  know it's a right we are not in a there [TS]

  is no system and and the perception of [TS]

  the system is just that you've never [TS]

  you've never sat in elsewhere engines [TS]

  office and watched you know the ins and [TS]

  outs of how how a guy like that keeps it [TS]

  keeps the ball in the volunteer today [TS]

  today [TS]

  exactly i mean there's like there's like [TS]

  three things that are difficult in life [TS]

  he working with other people getting [TS]

  shit accomplished and keeping secrets [TS]

  three things that I think are pretty [TS]

  hard to do and they're super hard to [TS]

  sustain to work with the same people for [TS]

  10 years to get things accomplished for [TS]

  10 years and to keep whatever you're [TS]

  doing a secret for 10 years all those [TS]

  independently are super hard but it's [TS]

  what every conspiracy requires three of [TS]

  the most difficult things in the world [TS]

  so it's so ironic [TS]

  so it's so ironic [TS]

  to me that the people who are the least [TS]

  trustful in the world being conspiracy [TS]

  theorists they got they got a reason for [TS]

  everything [TS]

  they'll figure out all these things but [TS]

  the people who trust least in the world [TS]

  have an incredibly bizarre idea of how [TS]

  much bad guys can trust each other right [TS]

  oh my god totally bananas that did you [TS]

  could pull off something as large as [TS]

  like having stuff up here on the money [TS]

  and nobody would figure out except this [TS]

  one guy and so but like those guys never [TS]

  told anybody else like how does that [TS]

  work is America like how does that work [TS]

  yeah well and I i think i have the [TS]

  advantage and I feel like I feel like my [TS]

  by my friends share this advantage but [TS]

  but my peculiar advantage is that i [TS]

  really do not think that there are that [TS]

  there's anybody out there that's any [TS]

  smarter than I am and that is that is an [TS]

  advantage for me and also you know can [TS]

  can can be a disadvantage but I hear [TS]

  people all the time say like well you [TS]

  know that's just their just those people [TS]

  that are just up there there are just a [TS]

  lot smarter than the rest of us and they [TS]

  are doing things that we don't [TS]

  understand I just another form of [TS]

  magical thinking right and I just don't [TS]

  believe it I I have met a lot of people [TS]

  in my life across a wide spectrum and [TS]

  some of them people that have tremendous [TS]

  power and I just don't I I I mean I have [TS]

  met people where I'm like wow you're [TS]

  smart like that you I like the way you [TS]

  talk or I like the way you think but [TS]

  smarter than me man you know [TS]

  no I mean not really and so the idea [TS]

  that so as a result of that I feel like [TS]

  my interpersonal relationships with [TS]

  people are a are a template for how [TS]

  people interact with one another [TS]

  I don't feel like my interactions with [TS]

  people are principally that different [TS]

  from the way any other person interacts [TS]

  with any other people and if if I cannot [TS]

  keep a kippah conspiracy going among my [TS]

  friends for more than four weeks [TS]

  let's say if I can't keep if I can't [TS]

  tell one person a secret and not hear it [TS]

  back from a third-person four weeks [TS]

  later then how could anybody right and [TS]

  like my my group of friends is a for my [TS]

  group of associates and my experience in [TS]

  the world is just a I can extrapolate [TS]

  from that to see what human behavior is [TS]

  who and it's you know it's one of the [TS]

  it's one of sort of my theories of my [TS]

  growing like the book that I'm about to [TS]

  write on feminism which I know you're [TS]

  going to be fascinated by but like all [TS]

  of the most powerful people in my life [TS]

  are women and always happen and that [TS]

  does not square with the cultural [TS]

  narrative that we've all accepted that [TS]

  women are in at a disadvantage position [TS]

  these are the men like clearly they [TS]

  clearly this the culture is structured [TS]

  so that men are in charge in in air [TS]

  quotes but in my own life the women are [TS]

  in charge and that's true of everybody i [TS]

  know it's true of every woman i know [TS]

  it's true of every man i know there's no [TS]

  i don't know a single man that is really [TS]

  in charge of the women in his family and [TS]

  so there is a there's a tremendous [TS]

  tension in my own first-hand experience [TS]

  between what I perceive to be real on [TS]

  the on the spin the small-scale in the [TS]

  microcosm of my own life and what I'm [TS]

  being told is true in the macrocosm [TS]

  and it's always anecdotal well this [TS]

  person that person will this statistic [TS]

  that statistic but in the end the [TS]

  reality of how I perceive life i live in [TS]

  a matriarchal culture and the perception [TS]

  of our culture being patriarchal is a is [TS]

  a is it a question i'm interested in [TS]

  unraveling I I have a theory as to why [TS]

  we perceive it that way and certainly [TS]

  that there there's a lot of you can [TS]

  point to a lot of anecdotal and [TS]

  statistical evidence to bolster that [TS]

  theory but my and I think everyone's [TS]

  firsthand experiences like no mom is the [TS]

  head of the family and so was grandma [TS]

  and so was great grandma and so how do [TS]

  you how do you square the one with the [TS]

  other and it's in it and it feels like [TS]

  very much in the family of the idea that [TS]

  like well in my personal life I you know [TS]

  like person x is sleeping with person [TS]

  wise wife and everybody knows it except [TS]

  for person why but we are all willing to [TS]

  believe that the government controls the [TS]

  media perfect for the Jews control the [TS]

  media you know that there that there are [TS]

  that there are international systems [TS]

  that are better hundreds and hundreds of [TS]

  years old where everything is being [TS]

  puppet puppet controlled by people that [TS]

  have back engineered alien technology [TS]

  but you know better but the people [TS]

  around me who have everything at stake [TS]

  can't even manage to carry on a simple [TS]

  and normal affair with one another [TS]

  without the whole thing blowing up in [TS]

  their faces within a period of weeks or [TS]

  months [TS]

  so I know I'm going to get a lot of [TS]

  angry letters for this but I'm but i'm [TS]

  working on a comprehensive theory i'm [TS]

  looking forward to that I i only [TS]

  discovered last 10 years something that [TS]

  you know how it is when you discover [TS]

  stuff from your past your family's past [TS]

  and you go like on the one hand [TS]

  wow that's really surprising but wow [TS]

  that really makes sense and that makes [TS]

  so much sense that I can't believe it's [TS]

  this surprising but the you know my [TS]

  grandfather was a very very proud man [TS]

  and you know I'm Mason and have told you [TS]

  about him hey so you know from british [TS]

  guiana and very English and extremely [TS]

  racist and very just just really what [TS]

  pretty much what you'd expect America [TS]

  was like you know querido be carried up [TS]

  like a short bullwhip everywhere he went [TS]

  he might have one on his lapel of it but [TS]

  you know my mom told me you know a few [TS]

  years ago something that I guess I [TS]

  should have realized which is I knew [TS]

  that my father grandfather my [TS]

  grandmother both worked and I so the way [TS]

  was always described always knew my [TS]

  grandmother was a secretary that says [TS]

  you know is always understood that she [TS]

  was a secretary in my grandpa had a [TS]

  career at Cincinnati gas and electric [TS]

  right easy enough to understand and but [TS]

  that sounds like the story as n that [TS]

  that's that's the story but the the [TS]

  little more texture behind the story is [TS]

  my grandfather had a pretty blue collar [TS]

  job [TS]

  wherefore basically 30 years he would [TS]

  shut off people's electricity every day [TS]

  he drove around a truck and that was his [TS]

  job and eventually got I think his [TS]

  promotion was he'd been there long [TS]

  enough to eventually became whether [TS]

  called like case that was like deputy or [TS]

  something like that but like no I mean [TS]

  his job was basically the he had a [TS]

  blue-collar job his whole life but kept [TS]

  benefits one with that but my [TS]

  grandmother's job as a secretary [TS]

  my grandmother was an executive [TS]

  secretary for many years to the founder [TS]

  of a pharmaceutical firm in Cincinnati [TS]

  she had a whole variety of jobs and [TS]

  until she really just their faculties [TS]

  were not there to do it anymore but what [TS]

  I found out she was the breadwinner in [TS]

  the family like you get good benefits [TS]

  and stuff but my grandmother made a ton [TS]

  more money that my grandfather did ya [TS]

  and to quote a line from deadwood a [TS]

  title you know like agreed upon [TS]

  I think that i think that i think it was [TS]

  you know and i know this is not do [TS]

  anything to either refute or or bolster [TS]

  your pure your books theory but like I [TS]

  think he was just understood that like [TS]

  grandpa would always be seen as the [TS]

  patriarch of the family turn even though [TS]

  grandma is the one who was responsible [TS]

  for them being able to do stuff and pay [TS]

  their bills that's right and I I never [TS]

  hearing that boy that sounds so dumb now [TS]

  like what can I figured that out before [TS]

  I no reason to figure it out because [TS]

  everybody that was the kind of thing [TS]

  that a family we just you know sort of [TS]

  you know it's not the kind of thing that [TS]

  came up a Christmas talking about that [TS]

  you know not just a family but about our [TS]

  entire our entire human family [TS]

  yes she let him she let him be the boss [TS]

  i'm not saying that means anything you [TS]

  know political in a larger sense maybe [TS]

  it does but all i can say is that like [TS]

  that narrative as it was not just fine [TS]

  with me [TS]

  yeah for my entire childhood and young [TS]

  adults the thing is it's it's just fine [TS]

  with everybody and and the you know the [TS]

  the the lion is the king of the jungle [TS]

  the male lion sits sleeps 4 20 hours at [TS]

  least for 20 hours a day that's right [TS]

  and then and be the culture of lions is [TS]

  absolutely a female culture but we when [TS]

  we when we take a picture of the the [TS]

  lion and put it on put it on the title [TS]

  card of a of a movie company [TS]

  it is the it's the male lion with his [TS]

  big roar and he's big he's the biggest [TS]

  line so when push comes to shove between [TS]

  him and any other one lion like he's [TS]

  probably going to prevail but he's a [TS]

  he's a figurehead he is the you know [TS]

  he's the male it's the mail plumage [TS]

  really anyway the the be angry be angry [TS]

  letters or the or rather the the it i [TS]

  don't anticipate angry letters because I [TS]

  haven't really explained my theory but [TS]

  they say that we got a lot of episodes [TS]

  come if there will be there will be a [TS]

  lot of instructive I think emails that I [TS]

  get from people explaining how I'm wrong [TS]

  and don't understand i well I i was just [TS]

  i will just say in this case I think one [TS]

  argument could be made that the [TS]

  system that needs to change is the one [TS]

  which grandma feels like she should let [TS]

  grandpa win and let him be the [TS]

  figurehead and isn't kind of a shame [TS]

  that you can't just call call that what [TS]

  it really is which is the two people [TS]

  trying to get by and that if it matters [TS]

  and it shouldn't but if it matters is [TS]

  the one that's really the one she's a [TS]

  powerful one [TS]

  well that I think the system that makes [TS]

  makes it okay for her to the mirror to [TS]

  his power that I think is what people [TS]

  are struggling against that is the thing [TS]

  that we have been struggling against for [TS]

  the last 40 years or 50 years the the [TS]

  the idea that the that what is the [TS]

  perceived imbalance of power is the [TS]

  actual imbalance of power and so what we [TS]

  need to do is change the change what we [TS]

  perceive to be the structures that that [TS]

  allow for this imbalance of power but [TS]

  there isn't really any awareness that [TS]

  the perceived imbalance of power is not [TS]

  it does not actually reflect an actual [TS]

  imbalance and that was where we were [TS]

  starting from was a system up that was [TS]

  actually in balance it just had [TS]

  components or or was in a was in a cycle [TS]

  of a hundred years or 200 years where it [TS]

  had been out of balance after the [TS]

  Industrial Revolution and was kind of [TS]

  like it after World War Two it was [TS]

  particularly egregiously kind of trying [TS]

  to integrate new technology was making [TS]

  the imbalance kind of ugly the perceived [TS]

  imbalance but we've been trying to we [TS]

  have been trying to put a system that [TS]

  that actually was at in a kind of [TS]

  equitable balance we've been trying to [TS]

  write it and put it into because because [TS]

  we were not conscious of what I think [TS]

  people were for thousands of years [TS]

  conscious of which is that Dad does this [TS]

  work mom does this work and when when [TS]

  it's time for somebody to stand up in [TS]

  church and say our family is here and i [TS]

  am the representative of it it's dad [TS]

  that does that job but when it's time to [TS]

  really set the standard of what our [TS]

  family does [TS]

  and what are.what what our culture is [TS]

  it's mom that does that job and so for [TS]

  thousands of years i think people were [TS]

  did not perceive there to be any [TS]

  imbalance between the genders it was [TS]

  just a recognition that dad did the [TS]

  frontman stuff he did the talking he did [TS]

  the he was the one that went to town he [TS]

  it when it was time for somebody to [TS]

  write the history of our people [TS]

  it was dad that did the job but that [TS]

  that was that didn't mean he was in [TS]

  charge or that he was or or to the [TS]

  degree that we wanted somebody to be in [TS]

  charge we it was dad that got that that [TS]

  button it naturally filled that role but [TS]

  the idea that he was in charge in such a [TS]

  way that he was dictating to mom what we [TS]

  thought or did i think is is unreal but [TS]

  that doesn't exist in any family i know [TS]

  and i don't think it existed throughout [TS]

  history and we have us we were watching [TS]

  mad men now and reflecting back on this [TS]

  post-war time when we were living in [TS]

  these little these little subdivisions [TS]

  we're all of a sudden grandma wasn't [TS]

  there anymore it was just mom and dad [TS]

  and the two kids and there was a the [TS]

  system was broken but it wasn't it [TS]

  wasn't that the gender roles had always [TS]

  been broken and now we're finally [TS]

  discovering it but really that it was [TS]

  just a a moment in time when mom and dad [TS]

  neither one of them knew what the fuck [TS]

  they were doing and and we've got it [TS]

  we've got imprinted in our minds that [TS]

  those those madmen gender roles [TS]

  are somehow indicative of how gender [TS]

  roles were 44 hundreds and thousands of [TS]

  years and we're not aware that that is [TS]

  the anomaly that was the that was the [TS]

  the out the outlier era so anyway we're [TS]

  living in a world now where we have been [TS]

  trying to fix we're trying to fix at the [TS]

  underlying cause of a of a system that [TS]

  what we're we're only seeing the we're [TS]

  only seeing the shadow box of it you [TS]

  know the the perception that grandma [TS]

  shouldn't be ashamed to claim that she [TS]

  is the breadwinner when in fact you know [TS]

  I think grandma was happy to have grand [TS]

  Dadd be the be the puffed-up you know [TS]

  the stuffed shirt at the head of the [TS]

  family but that is a traditional that [TS]

  those are those are traditional gender [TS]

  roles and that that in that those are [TS]

  actually traditional for a reason and [TS]

  that that is a system that is actually [TS]

  in balance [TS]

  so now I'm going to get some angry [TS]

  letter all you'll be fine but but I'm [TS]

  you know I I read the more that I the [TS]

  more that I apply this theory to what I [TS]

  perceive the more I realized that for us [TS]

  to for us to be x2 for us to have [TS]

  accepted the narrative for the last 40 [TS]

  years that we live in a patriarchal [TS]

  society where women are enslaved [TS]

  requires of us that we that we deny what [TS]

  our eyes and hearts tell us about the [TS]

  people right around us like about our [TS]

  own families about the things that we [TS]

  see every day like women are in charge [TS]

  there in charge of our culture they're [TS]

  in charge of our families they are the [TS]

  prime movers of what we think and feel [TS]

  and so how how all of us men and women [TS]

  both can walk out into the world and say [TS]

  yes but the fact that there are it is an [TS]

  income disparity [TS]

  or the fact that there is violence [TS]

  against women or whether the all the all [TS]

  the evidence to promote the idea that [TS]

  there is that there is a conspiracy a [TS]

  giant conspiracy for hundreds and [TS]

  hundreds of years on the part of these [TS]

  men that are supposedly like in charge [TS]

  of everything who have these mysterious [TS]

  powers [TS]

  I'm very curious to know I doubt very [TS]

  much that William Buffett doesn't answer [TS]

  to his wife ultimately weren't warned [TS]

  whatever william warren the Oracle of [TS]

  Omaha the column [TS]

  yeah the Oracle of Omaha answers to his [TS]

  wife just as we all do I answer to all [TS]

  the more seconds later mrs. Buffett I [TS]

  you know I'm on her email list and she's [TS]

  like what are you doing what what is [TS]

  your culture [TS]

  don't go too far off the reservation I [TS]

  hope that nobody takes my idea and [TS]

  starts working on a book because i'm [TS]

  going to i'm going to write this book [TS]

  and it's going to make me a pariah [TS]

  I i think i think there's plenty of room [TS]

  in the space [TS]

  mm-hmm what are some conspiracies that [TS]

  actually really happened in worked do [TS]

  you think [TS]

  well that and I think about this all the [TS]

  time what are the conspirators what are [TS]

  the conspiracies that worked and I mean [TS]

  there are ones that work for like more [TS]

  than a month [TS]

  I mean there are the conspiracies out [TS]

  what what what the what history is [TS]

  littered with is attempted conspiracies [TS]

  that failed right i think the Holocaust [TS]

  is a tremendous conspiracy that works [TS]

  you know I want to clarify that you mean [TS]

  in the sense in this makes sense that [TS]

  they were hoping they could get away [TS]

  with it and nobody would they they tried [TS]

  they tried they especially the later [TS]

  days there's a lot of scurrying to cover [TS]

  their tracks [TS]

  yeah they're very very well personally [TS]

  well Otto Otto [TS]

  document today they documented in [TS]

  extreme detail and then tried to cover [TS]

  it up but you know the the the amazing [TS]

  revelation that we've had you and I just [TS]

  on this program that the Holocaust [TS]

  really didn't start until 43 on the best [TS]

  final the final solution the final [TS]

  solution and that it was over by 45 [TS]

  mind-blowing it's in it's incredible [TS]

  that they marshaled that many people and [TS]

  that much material and that much [TS]

  information technology and we're able to [TS]

  were able to successfully perpetrate a [TS]

  crime on an unprecedented scale like [TS]

  that is an example of a a conspiracy [TS]

  that was predicated on the fact that [TS]

  there was already a already all those [TS]

  systems were in place and they fit the [TS]

  puzzle piece of mass murder into a [TS]

  bureaucracy that was all but had been [TS]

  designed for for a different purpose you [TS]

  know what and while they rallied [TS]

  certainly related and stoked that kind [TS]

  of hatred it would have been a much [TS]

  harder sell to people who had to make [TS]

  the machines if they didn't already kind [TS]

  of feel that way if there was not [TS]

  already such such a a poisonous feeling [TS]

  about certain groups [TS]

  yeah right but I don't think it just you [TS]

  can't just generated that about people [TS]

  with brown eyes [TS]

  i think it was i think it was so [TS]

  compartmentalised the people that were [TS]

  making zyklon-b we're making it as a as [TS]

  a rat poison you know that that's that [TS]

  that's what makes it such a such a [TS]

  conspiracy like nobody went to the [TS]

  zyklon-b manufacturers that they didn't [TS]

  have an employee meeting and say we're [TS]

  ramping up production because we've [TS]

  decided that what we're really killing [TS]

  in June when everybody in here to give [TS]

  me 25 ideas like lappy by noon [TS]

  listen everybody take a knee 25 tax like [TS]

  did and this is this is the this is the [TS]

  whole question of complicity did the [TS]

  chief [TS]

  chairman of the board of Mar farmer [TS]

  yeah I I didn't Farber yeah did he know [TS]

  I mean you have to say yeah he probably [TS]

  did somebody somebody went and went and [TS]

  stood in his office and said we need we [TS]

  need a hundred times more of this [TS]

  pesticide then we were ordering before [TS]

  wink wink when but today who knows who [TS]

  knows what was happening at that point [TS]

  did that guy that guy I'm sure claimed [TS]

  that he didn't know and his ended it is [TS]

  his sons and daughters and grandsons and [TS]

  granddaughters all I'm sure believe that [TS]

  he didn't but at what point i mean the [TS]

  people who knew what was happening it [TS]

  was actually pretty they did a bit the [TS]

  the Nazis did a brilliant job of of [TS]

  controlling information right but they [TS]

  were but they were in a totalitarian [TS]

  bureaucratic state and it only lasted [TS]

  for two years and I you know I know that [TS]

  there are some listeners who would say [TS]

  we are living in a totalitarian [TS]

  bureaucratic state we just don't know it [TS]

  but it but we're not in fact like any [TS]

  other conspiracy that actually succeeded [TS]

  that came out a hundred years later [TS]

  can you name one you know this makes you [TS]

  think of it and not really but I think [TS]

  there's an interesting distinction to be [TS]

  made between an ongoing conspiracy and a [TS]

  cover-up [TS]

  so I think it's one thing to say holy [TS]

  crap somebody accidentally shot Johnny [TS]

  and now we gotta go barium and nobody [TS]

  tell right there at that you can see [TS]

  that see that as a conspiracy I i would [TS]

  really contrast that with the Jews run [TS]

  Hollywood sure that something real [TS]

  different kind of thing or you know that [TS]

  doesn't mean you know what I mean any of [TS]

  these these nutball ideas that there's [TS]

  some kind of a pseudo formal cabal of [TS]

  people who work behind the scenes to [TS]

  manipulate that's the kind that I find [TS]

  incredulous or incredible is just the [TS]

  idea that that that that many powerful [TS]

  people all our Swearengen could work [TS]

  with that many other powerful people [TS]

  and and not have to get out you know [TS]

  that I think the reason it's so it has [TS]

  such a popular holding our imagination [TS]

  is that the Soviet Union really did like [TS]

  control information to such a degree and [TS]

  and do that whole revisionism where [TS]

  we're a little by little people get [TS]

  painted on airbrush out of a photo yeah [TS]

  so that by the time you know if you were [TS]

  raised in in the Soviet Union but [TS]

  they're born in nineteen thirty and you [TS]

  know live 2 1989 or whatever there-there [TS]

  presumably from our perspective outside [TS]

  looking in [TS]

  we think of them as being people who are [TS]

  living according to one truth that is [TS]

  largely manufactured um and they're all [TS]

  kinds of you know there's all sorts of [TS]

  evidence of that just in my own [TS]

  experience walking through a Romanian [TS]

  like talking to people when they're like [TS]

  oh yeah well the the Commissioner of [TS]

  this department promised [TS]

  czesc you that all the trees you know [TS]

  that this was the most fertile part of [TS]

  Romania and all the trees were bearing [TS]

  fruit at all times and Ceausescu was [TS]

  coming on a tour of the area and we went [TS]

  we had to go to the open market and buy [TS]

  ten thousand bushels of apples and then [TS]

  pay a bunch of peasants to take those [TS]

  apples and tie them in three village and [TS]

  that that for one long stretch of the [TS]

  road that some some group of people who [TS]

  didn't know any better had tied apples [TS]

  in all the pine trees is a true story [TS]

  this is a story that i was told that's [TS]

  an amazing story so that Ceausescu as he [TS]

  was driving through in the back of his [TS]

  limousine you know that the person [TS]

  sitting extra could point out and say [TS]

  like here look look how look out [TS]

  vertel of fertile it is here in Arad we [TS]

  have we have you know we have apples [TS]

  growing in the pine trees or whatever [TS]

  but the story as told by Romanians to me [TS]

  was that the point of that story was [TS]

  that child is coo and the people around [TS]

  him were the ones who were being [TS]

  hoodwinked or were too stupid to to know [TS]

  that you can't that first of all there [TS]

  aren't apples in the trees in April and [TS]

  second that there aren't apples and pine [TS]

  trees and and that's the story that that [TS]

  I kept hearing in Romania was that what [TS]

  what happened was it was a the the [TS]

  culture of lives was a product of these [TS]

  incremental small exaggerations where a [TS]

  guy said I have the most fertile part of [TS]

  the country and we're going to make you [TS]

  know we're going to exceed our harvest [TS]

  this year [TS]

  oh it started as that realize you [TS]

  described in your bullshit like [TS]

  bullshitting it started as like tall [TS]

  tales basically yeah and then the guy [TS]

  sitting next to the tables like well [TS]

  we're going to exceed harvest this year [TS]

  and then pretty soon everybody at the [TS]

  table is going to exceed harvest this [TS]

  year and they and that goes for a couple [TS]

  years until they have a bad year but [TS]

  that now everybody's everybody was [TS]

  already lying a little bit and so it's [TS]

  much harder to what you know that then [TS]

  you have a bad year and and and crops [TS]

  are halved right if you've been telling [TS]

  the truth you could just say well we had [TS]

  a really bad year but you've already [TS]

  been lying by ten percent and so now you [TS]

  have to keep that line up and you're [TS]

  like we didn't lose any crops and then [TS]

  nobody did [TS]

  what's up but the guy at the head of the [TS]

  table is making economic plans and [TS]

  economic predictions based on what [TS]

  you're telling him so he says we have a [TS]

  surplus and our neighbors in Hungary had [TS]

  a bad drought this year but we have a [TS]

  surplus so we're going to sell we're [TS]

  going to sell apples to them at an [TS]

  inflated costs [TS]

  and we're gonna and then we're gonna [TS]

  take that hard cash and we're going to [TS]

  build tanks with them and so then the [TS]

  the message goes out what we we need you [TS]

  know a thousand bushels of apples from [TS]

  every department because we're gonna [TS]

  sell those to Hungary who and all the [TS]

  the all the department heads are like we [TS]

  only have a thousand bushels of apples [TS]

  well we can't we can't reveal the lie so [TS]

  we're going to send all of our apples to [TS]

  Hungary and then there are no apples in [TS]

  Romania but the people at the head of [TS]

  the table don't know that because [TS]

  they're being lied to [TS]

  so they sell those apples on the open [TS]

  market and then they build tanks with [TS]

  them and not from our perspective [TS]

  sitting in America it's like those evil [TS]

  people are lying you know they're like [TS]

  starving their own people to build tanks [TS]

  but the reality on the ground is much [TS]

  more complicated and it's a much more [TS]

  it's the responsibility is with every [TS]

  little tiny lie Ceausescu had no he had [TS]

  no idea people are putting pieces of [TS]

  paper on in front of him that say we're [TS]

  the richest country in the world [TS]

  he's not looking for information that [TS]

  makes him look that he's not and that's [TS]

  the thing he and his crime is that he's [TS]

  not intelligent enough or interested in [TS]

  donating incurious is in curious to say [TS]

  what's the real story and when he does [TS]

  when he does say let's go on a tour of [TS]

  this I'd like to see that people tie [TS]

  apple trees and apples in the pine trees [TS]

  and he's like haha well sounds good to [TS]

  me you know like ultimately he's a boob [TS]

  but but the idea that that that that [TS]

  that was a conspiracy that is coming [TS]

  from a tribunal as opposed to like a a [TS]

  broken culture that is like feeding on [TS]

  its brokenness and it's a minute it's a [TS]

  death by a million cuts it's actually [TS]

  much more depressing it's incredibly [TS]

  depressing but it's like it is [TS]

  fundamentally human in a way that that [TS]

  it's you know it in some sense it's [TS]

  easier to understand how a person [TS]

  through a series of small lives could [TS]

  find himself on a stepladder tying an [TS]

  apple into a pine tree [TS]

  it's easier to understand how that crazy [TS]

  story could be true then it is to [TS]

  understand how a nation of people could [TS]

  allow themselves to be willing you know [TS]

  willfully starved for 50 years because [TS]

  they're just taking instruction you know [TS]

  because they're living in a culture of [TS]

  such total fear that nobody dares move [TS]

  left or right you know like the one [TS]

  thing the one thing sounds bananas but I [TS]

  can see how you would end up there [TS]

  well you know you can grow up in addison [TS]

  pine trees too well that's the thing i'm [TS]

  sure they were time bananas up there too [TS]

  so i don't know i use that litmus test [TS]

  whenever I hear a story about like about [TS]

  how somebody's in charge or about how [TS]

  how the the world is in balance I'm just [TS]

  like it if I import that story to my [TS]

  little world my little group of friends [TS]

  can I see that actually happening and [TS]

  sometimes the most fantastical ones i [TS]

  can I you know I could see you time [TS]

  bananas in my trees but it got it down [TS]

  at daybreak the next day happy [TS]

  happy so bad [TS]

  [Music] [TS]