Roderick on the Line

Ep. 117: "Put on the Carrot Hat"


  this episode of rock on the line is [TS]

  sponsored by Squarespace the all-in-one [TS]

  platform that makes it fast and easy to [TS]

  create your own professional website [TS]

  portfolio or online store for your free [TS]

  trial plus ten percent off anything you [TS]

  by visit and use the [TS]

  offer code supertrain at checkout a [TS]

  better web starts with your website [TS]

  below I John hi Merlin is going pretty [TS]

  good pretty good it's really early all [TS]

  how did your night end last night trying [TS]

  to think so long ago I think that it [TS]

  just was a bit just kind of petered out [TS]

  instead of ending with a bang but a the [TS]

  because of global climate change the [TS]

  city of seattle all has been enjoying [TS]

  spectacular weather i'm sorry it's been [TS]

  a real trial and normally June is the [TS]

  month where it rains a lot and every the [TS]

  juniors the month where everybody's like [TS]

  every year [TS]

  it surprises us that this has been true [TS]

  for the last 20 years of me living here [TS]

  and I think throughout time because you [TS]

  have a nice you know couple of nice days [TS]

  in April and May and you're like a [TS]

  summer's here and then in June just [TS]

  rains and everybody goes oh what and we [TS]

  forget every year we forget that it [TS]

  happens and then when it happens it's [TS]

  like this this bait-and-switch we feel [TS]

  like we're being robbed and then july [TS]

  the summer comes right that's the [TS]

  typical seattle / summer well the last [TS]

  couple of years it's just been sunny all [TS]

  June like just send me the whole time [TS]

  sunny and 75 degrees which is which is [TS]

  you know a real ripoff [TS]

  and one of the things that I guess we [TS]

  never realized was that when it rained [TS]

  it [TS]

  it kept all all the pollen and the [TS]

  allergenic components and kept them down [TS]

  the ground kept them down a little bit [TS]

  kept him down in the ground where they [TS]

  belong and now there's nothing keeping [TS]

  them down the sky is just filled with [TS]

  bits and they're floating around and [TS]

  they're getting my nose and they're [TS]

  getting my eyes I wake up in the morning [TS]

  it's like that's like there's gum in my [TS]

  eyes chewing gum and my nose is all [TS]

  scratchy and so just like such a global [TS]

  warming is really a really bad if you [TS]

  say think it might be real I mean items [TS]

  are climate change I didn't mean to say [TS]

  global warming but like you know for [TS]

  instance like I'm sure there are some [TS]

  people whose houses are being washed [TS]

  away into the ocean because they live on [TS]

  a toll and there are you know the Bears [TS]

  are dying in the Arctic but you know i [TS]

  have really scratchy eyes [TS]

  yeah and I feel like if you had a parade [TS]

  you probably could go i couldn't I'd [TS]

  have to you know i have to be in a in a [TS]

  motorized chair and you make the judge [TS]

  about the bubble [TS]

  yeah because it's like a mystery writer [TS]

  mr. tarak sends his regrets as I walk [TS]

  around in a t-shirt and shorts and and [TS]

  enjoy the you know life in paradise here [TS]

  scripts itchy so identified sneezy [TS]

  I mean I suppose I could I could do some [TS]

  research and take some kind of medicine [TS]

  of some kind [TS]

  I think I tickets I tucanos medicine [TS]

  everyday and it's one of those things [TS]

  where I i think it helps I you know it's [TS]

  one of those really annoying kinds of [TS]

  things like an old person pill where you [TS]

  only notice that is doing anything when [TS]

  he stopped taking it [TS]

  mhm now how's that figure could you go [TS]

  to the could you go to costco could you [TS]

  get as i do a large bottle of generic [TS]

  claritin is that that is that in your [TS]

  technologies so this is another one of [TS]

  these problems are you ready for this [TS]

  so you know I rented an office and that [TS]

  is a you know that's a payment i have a [TS]

  monthly payment now for that and then [TS]

  that comes with there's little utility [TS]

  payment or something and that [TS]

  accompanies it looks like oh i see the [TS]

  rent isn't really the rent it's the rent [TS]

  plus this other amount and then i gotta [TS]

  get internet there and there's one [TS]

  company that provides the internet you [TS]

  can't just can't shop around familiar [TS]

  with that you have to pay the one people [TS]

  have to pay them whatever they ask and [TS]

  they will provide you whatever service [TS]

  they think it is their service like you [TS]

  know you say i want internet I want [TS]

  internet that's fast and good and [TS]

  they're like well we have this internet [TS]

  we have this amount of internet that we [TS]

  are going to go we are able to give you [TS]

  or willing to you can't say what you [TS]

  described as it sounds it sounds like [TS]

  something from like light nineties you [TS]

  going to this place and your option is [TS]

  pay for this wireless that we have here [TS]

  or don't have internet right that's it [TS]

  that's all you got so you can't get like [TS]

  a nice I ethernet connection there [TS]

  no those are your options you could not [TS]

  go down to to the marketplace [TS]

  thank you for your cooperation where all [TS]

  the people are there are walking there [TS]

  where's 18t comcast they're all there [TS]

  with little booths [TS]

  hey little Barker's hey guy come on over [TS]

  here check out our internet there's none [TS]

  of that so but i have to have internet [TS]

  down there so that's another payment and [TS]

  then I start thinking like oh well you [TS]

  know i i've been having this trouble [TS]

  invoicing people and now I'm not [TS]

  downloaded this invoicing program and it [TS]

  turns out that is a payment he pay you [TS]

  pay for that and then now i'm looking at [TS]

  nose spray i gotta get that I gotta get [TS]

  back on i gotta pay for nose spray every [TS]

  month at an additional cost and you know [TS]

  it's one of these things when I first [TS]

  when I first realized that I needed to [TS]

  that I was not going to be able to live [TS]

  in the modern world without a driver's [TS]

  license and this I realize this at the [TS]

  age of but 26 [TS]

  I was like you know what I've been [TS]

  without a driver's license for a long [TS]

  time and that the inconvenience of it is [TS]

  that has now surpassed the indignity of [TS]

  having to get one and I when I got a [TS]

  driver's license and then you know right [TS]

  away like you know you gotta get [TS]

  insurance and I gotta start obeying the [TS]

  law and all these other you know [TS]

  corollary effects and you know once they [TS]

  get you not you know then they just they [TS]

  drag you back in well you know I know [TS]

  you're in kind of a raw place right now [TS]

  with with the expenses but but let me [TS]

  put this in 42 as somebody who's doing [TS]

  those things with an office is also need [TS]

  a second set of everything so if you [TS]

  want to get the nasal chrome or you want [TS]

  to get the generic claritin you gotta [TS]

  have you [TS]

  that's exactly right yeah yeah so so you [TS]

  know it's like when I got the iphone 5 [TS]

  all the sudden I needed to buy five new [TS]

  cables because i had over the years of [TS]

  owning an iphone 4i had acquired all the [TS]

  cabling and I mean right i had a car [TS]

  charger i had a cable at my mom's house [TS]

  had a cable upstairs and cable [TS]

  downstairs a table at my mom's house and [TS]

  then but the by the new phone you wait [TS]

  you wait for the you wait for the new [TS]

  phone to come out and you get it [TS]

  oh all your cables are garbage now yeah [TS]

  I had to get all new cables and then not [TS]

  everyone in my family switched over to [TS]

  the iphone 5 so we got duplicated cables [TS]

  everywhere four and five cable [TS]

  how do i trust that Apple isn't going to [TS]

  come up with a brand-new cable with the [TS]

  six [TS]

  how do i do I have you know like you [TS]

  you're telling me I should trust that [TS]

  you took your saying no I wouldn't do [TS]

  that but how do i know now [TS]

  ya know what I mean burn me once shame [TS]

  on shame on you burn me twice is that [TS]

  the shame on me wonder is it does do is [TS]

  it the third time that it's a shame on [TS]

  me for me once [TS]

  can't fool me right that's right [TS]

  internal that was going your eyes [TS]

  miserable tell you what tell you what [TS]

  so anyway I just feel like i might as [TS]

  well just start up on autopay at my bank [TS]

  and everybody shake hands with it just [TS]

  starts paying him something you know [TS]

  what I mean like just hi nice to meet [TS]

  you old now you're now you're connected [TS]

  via some app right somebody some tinder [TS]

  app it's like oh hi [TS]

  what a nice to meet you now we're now we [TS]

  both know it turns out we both like [TS]

  flock at all right well here's twenty [TS]

  bucks it like Robert De Niro and get [TS]

  around getting ever given everybody [TS]

  twenties just goes and starts going into [TS]

  your account i'm never gonna see you [TS]

  again [TS]

  well you know that's what that's what's [TS]

  gonna happen you're gonna get you're [TS]

  going to get these apps you know you [TS]

  just said it's just a plague laps when [TS]

  all we decided that down you know we all [TS]

  long story short they basically my [TS]

  daughter needed to have a room at some [TS]

  point she was a kid and and plus I was [TS]

  you know pretty sprawled out in the [TS]

  second bedroom and so I should get an [TS]

  office the only point is that like at [TS]

  the time it seemed like kind of a big [TS]

  deal but not a huge deal like oh I have [TS]

  this office where I will go and I will [TS]

  do office things and it seems too simple [TS]

  mio my daughter got a rope and now like [TS]

  I hate how much I kind of can't imagine [TS]

  going back I would love to not have the [TS]

  expense of this but it would be it would [TS]

  be chaos if you go back to a pre office [TS]

  economy [TS]

  well I mean you know part of it is that [TS]

  the bad on me part is like now the [TS]

  sprawl is on the office and I just I [TS]

  dread the idea of having to consolidate [TS]

  all of this i can probably just walk [TS]

  away i could grab the laptop can [TS]

  literally walk away and set it on fire [TS]

  he keep the next crime i'll get the [TS]

  paddle ball game in a chair you think [TS]

  we'll keep the office I mean it sounds [TS]

  like it's still kind of a weird fit for [TS]

  you [TS]

  well it's a lot of hassle you how I if I [TS]

  could say or how committed are you do [TS]

  you got like a lease and stuff i know i [TS]

  mean it's you know it's seattle right [TS]

  you could get anyway the the most [TS]

  stringent lease in the city I feel like [TS]

  you could walk in [TS]

  22 the manager's office one day and just [TS]

  be like yeah you know I just um and the [TS]

  manager be like oh yeah okay [TS]

  no it's not was going to somebody and [TS]

  sue me yeah no it's not that I feel [TS]

  bound I like having it i'm just i'm not [TS]

  using it yet because you know the big [TS]

  big problem my whole life I've done this [TS]

  it's like oh well if i dangled the [TS]

  carrot if i put it if you know if if if [TS]

  on monday i put a carrot on a string and [TS]

  I put it out [TS]

  I and I attached it to a fishing pole [TS]

  and I attached the fishing pole to a hat [TS]

  and I put the Hat on every morning when [TS]

  I wake up then I will start working and [TS]

  if i do that on monday by wednesday i [TS]

  maybe i'll have forgotten that i did [TS]

  that and it'll just be this carrot that [TS]

  I don't know where it came from and I [TS]

  wake up in the morning and i'll put on [TS]

  my hat that i always put on you know [TS]

  I've never put on a hat in my life but [TS]

  this is the idea right I'm going to put [TS]

  on this hat this new that all i have to [TS]

  do is put on the Hat and then McCarron [TS]

  will be there and then I'll go and I'll [TS]

  chase the carrot and I'll forget that [TS]

  this is all plan that I'm trying to like [TS]

  sneak in on myself and I know it's early [TS]

  but let me try to understand this [TS]

  you're saying you need a way to [TS]

  habituate yourself to doing a work thing [TS]

  over a period of time [TS]

  kind of yeah but that's been true that's [TS]

  been true since i was in fifth grade [TS]

  yeah and so so you know what I was in [TS]

  the when I was making record albums a [TS]

  lot which it would never actually was [TS]

  making them a lot but the times that i [TS]

  did make record albums but the fact that [TS]

  there was a lot of expense involved and [TS]

  you had to get a bunch of people all [TS]

  pulling together actually did have the [TS]

  effect of getting me at least to finish [TS]

  those things that i did finish [TS]

  but so this office is just another one [TS]

  of these strategies of like well if i [TS]

  get an office and i buy a new computer [TS]

  and i put the new computer in the office [TS]

  and i am paying for internet at the [TS]

  office then necessarily i will wake up [TS]

  every morning at nine have a healthy [TS]

  breakfast read the newspaper and by non [TS]

  your care infected but on the care that [TS]

  by nine-thirty i will be you know i will [TS]

  be merging into traffic [TS]

  come on on my commute to your office on [TS]

  my way to the office and then i will get [TS]

  there and i'll you know hang up my head [TS]

  on the hat rack and i'll say because [TS]

  she's the carrot the morning Marge and [TS]

  I'll sit down at my computer and i will [TS]

  write the the work that i really truly [TS]

  do want to write and that I feel like I [TS]

  desperately need to write but obviously [TS]

  don't need to write strongly enough that [TS]

  i'd just wake up and and and write it [TS]

  without all the with all without all [TS]

  this like Bologna in the middle and it's [TS]

  astonishing how easy it is to wake up in [TS]

  the morning not put on the carrot had [TS]

  and you know and spend like three hours [TS]

  looking at my phone and then decide that [TS]

  it's been a long time since I've had [TS]

  Fried Chicken so I better get better [TS]

  take care of that before the day gets [TS]

  too much older this episode of rock on [TS]

  the line is sponsored by our very good [TS]

  friends at Squarespace you know [TS]

  Squarespace they are the all-in-one [TS]

  platform that makes it fast and easy to [TS]

  create your own professional website [TS]

  portfolio or online store they make the [TS]

  whole process so simple and easy [TS]

  drag-and-drop interface and beautiful [TS]

  free templates you can tweak to suit [TS]

  your needs all the squarespace six [TS]

  designs are responsive which means they [TS]

  look great on every device [TS]

  Squarespace also offers free 24 x seven [TS]

  support through live chat and email with [TS]

  dedicated teams in New York City dublin [TS]

  and Portland who John and I have u [TS]

  square space to host rock on the line [TS]

  for three years now they have [TS]

  been great to work with we would love it [TS]

  if you would give them a try to remember [TS]

  Squarespace plans start at only eight [TS]

  dollars per month eight dollars a month [TS]

  that includes a free domain name if you [TS]

  sign up for a year [TS]

  please remember to tell Squarespace you [TS]

  heard about it from your positronic on [TS]

  the line listeners of this program get a [TS]

  free trial plus ten percent off any [TS]

  package they choose by using the special [TS]

  offer code supertrain at checkout our [TS]

  thanks to squarespace for supporting [TS]

  router kind of line we could not do it [TS]

  without and then you know another day [TS]

  goes by so answer your question i love [TS]

  the office i do not yet resented like it [TS]

  hasn't become a thing but I paying money [TS]

  and I just don't know i don't even want [TS]

  to go down there because it makes me [TS]

  feel so bad about the waist which is you [TS]

  know that i can remember a gym [TS]

  membership i bought in the mid nineties [TS]

  when i went down i bought the gym [TS]

  membership I i decided i was going to [TS]

  get a year instead of a month-to-month [TS]

  because that was the only way I was [TS]

  gonna it was that year membership is [TS]

  going to motivate me [TS]

  I got my picture taken i got an ID card [TS]

  with a photo on it I put it in my wallet [TS]

  and I never went back to the gym [TS]

  not a single time really i did not even [TS]

  go in to use the bathroom when I was [TS]

  walking by like that the i started [TS]

  changing my route so that i wouldn't go [TS]

  by the gym and be forced to remember and [TS]

  that's a terrible feeling but I never [TS]

  took the card out of my wallet because [TS]

  what if tomorrow is that what if [TS]

  tomorrow is the day here and so it's a [TS]

  terrible feeling I've done it to myself [TS]

  a thousand times now the office has not [TS]

  turned into that the office still is a [TS]

  place of hope and i still believe [TS]

  because I have all these things I have [TS]

  all these wonderful projects that feel [TS]

  like they're I'm and so tantalizingly [TS]

  close to to embarking on these little [TS]

  projects i bought some about the [TS]

  expensive voice recognition software [TS]

  oh yeah [TS]

  and I'm going to attend the training yet [TS]

  I haven't trained it fit I want to hear [TS]

  how that goes [TS]

  I'm gonna train the software and then [TS]

  I'm gonna have I'm gonna play the tapes [TS]

  into the software and if i play the [TS]

  tapes into the software and it produces [TS]

  even a seventy-five percent accurate [TS]

  documents i feel like that will that [TS]

  will be work i'll be excited to do come [TS]

  through the transcripts fix it up we [TS]

  clarify the ideas begin work on a you [TS]

  know on a big project a big writing [TS]

  project but the dictation software could [TS]

  also produce Jabberwocky [TS]

  yeah I don't spoil this for you that's [TS]

  that you know it's on the same way i [TS]

  feel like if i were to get transcripts [TS]

  of all the bullshit I've said over the [TS]

  last three to five years i have three [TS]

  books they just need to be edited for [TS]

  shizzle and editing is fun it can be [TS]

  anything I my problem was I mean God I [TS]

  have gosh I you know what i shouldn't [TS]

  say anything but you know [TS]

  hmm yeah you know there's well you know [TS]

  like for me I I i went and i went and by [TS]

  the voice software when when I was in a [TS]

  similar place to what I perceive you to [TS]

  be in right now which is like there's a [TS]

  big writing thing I need to do and my [TS]

  problem is that that I know I know all [TS]

  this stuff and I can feel that thing [TS]

  just out of reach that's that's almost [TS]

  this thing and what if I just you know [TS]

  Mikey's alternated like yes I'm cases of [TS]

  sit down type you know make outlines all [TS]

  these things all right all but like it [TS]

  will be pretty great if I could just [TS]

  walk around in my private office and [TS]

  have the the dingus take it all down my [TS]

  problem was like you know what you can [TS]

  guess what the ending was which was that [TS]

  like it didn't help and partly because i [TS]

  think i never got it trained too quite [TS]

  right and I never could forget the fact [TS]

  that i was talking to voice recognition [TS]

  software i think that's the key turning [TS]

  point a 70-percent if I had ninety-five [TS]

  percent correct it was still driving me [TS]

  bananas [TS]

  yeah you know but you know but it could [TS]

  work you know my problem also and I [TS]

  don't know if this helps her or harms [TS]

  but if when I look back at like having [TS]

  gotten an office in 2008 that's a very [TS]

  it's an interesting point I think it's [TS]

  something like maybe the summer of two [TS]

  thousand eight something like that [TS]

  this is a different office in your [TS]

  current offer the same office you got [TS]

  that office in 2008 yeah you've had it [TS]

  that whole time I had no ideas expensive [TS]

  i but but what you know what's funny [TS]

  about a funny thing happened I mean you [TS]

  know it's ironic that I like a lot of [TS]

  the reason i got its super ironic that I [TS]

  got it because i need to record podcasts [TS]

  and so therefore now I have a street car [TS]

  going by outside that are right here [TS]

  I should have really thought that [TS]

  through but you know apart from having [TS]

  to record things like you know what a [TS]

  total of maybe one hour of music and [TS]

  during that entire time to recorded [TS]

  music but you know hours and hours and [TS]

  hours a podcast the funny part is is [TS]

  that like within probably a few months [TS]

  even or at least no more than a year [TS]

  after that like everything got so much [TS]

  easier to do with stuff like my phone [TS]

  and I didn't really I mean I needed a [TS]

  place to put my giant computer and my [TS]

  giant screens and my giant connections [TS]

  in my giant router and all that stuff [TS]

  but the truth is that you know if i have [TS]

  something to say I if I really have [TS]

  something to say and I'm motivated to [TS]

  say i can type that on the iphone no [TS]

  problem and and that's that's what kicks [TS]

  me in the ass is like I have all this [TS]

  expense and all this trouble and all [TS]

  this hassle is garbage in my office when [TS]

  like honestly to to be a writer like you [TS]

  know it isn't like i have 10 books and [TS]

  things that need to be edited edited and [TS]

  I need to do you know the Magna Carta [TS]

  and translation or something like that [TS]

  you know it's it's it's kind of funny [TS]

  that I have all this infrastructure at a [TS]

  time when I could be writing anywhere [TS]

  but i'm not you know that's not the [TS]

  offices fault [TS]

  well it's and it's not but it is kind of [TS]

  I mean it is the it's the myth of it it [TS]

  it's the myth of of productivity and of [TS]

  user friendliness and listening [TS]

  it is [TS]

  like Apple in particular above all of [TS]

  their companies has profited from the [TS]

  idea that we are all artists and all we [TS]

  lacked was the tools and I mean that [TS]

  premise was sort of at the foundation of [TS]

  seventies and educate seventies [TS]

  childhood education that all we needed [TS]

  to do was free these peoples little [TS]

  minds and get them out of this nineteen [TS]

  fifties model of Education and let them [TS]

  play and let them have finger paints and [TS]

  we're going to discover this generation [TS]

  of artists and that and that that even [TS]

  if we even if that were true and that [TS]

  we've discovered a generation of artists [TS]

  the the further lead was that that's [TS]

  what we want that we actually want a [TS]

  generation of artists nobody really [TS]

  thought that I can imagine what that [TS]

  would be like a fucking ring if [TS]

  everybody really was an artist [TS]

  oh my god what a fucking nightmare world [TS]

  we would live in but that was the [TS]

  premise that my mother used to raise me [TS]

  like I'm going to let him explore his [TS]

  creativity i'm going to let him you know [TS]

  discover the artist within but what if [TS]

  you recall back to when we were in [TS]

  school it was in completely a pardon me [TS]

  I have a have some glue and my throat [TS]

  you know there was in completely applied [TS]

  and there were certainly students in the [TS]

  schools that were not being encouraged [TS]

  to finger paint but in general it was [TS]

  much more finger painting the the full [TS]

  at philosophy of education and apple has [TS]

  consistently done a marvelous job of [TS]

  convincing us that we are all filmmakers [TS]

  we are all graphic artists we are all [TS]

  podcasters we are all writers and all we [TS]

  needed all along was just the box of [TS]

  tools and once we have those things the [TS]

  box of tools would set us free [TS]

  and we would be making the beautiful [TS]

  things we wanted it was so easy to make [TS]

  up the the record that we just made with [TS]

  the film that we're working on and once [TS]

  that thing was done you know we would be [TS]

  completely validated and we would be [TS]

  helping people and so we've all been [TS]

  buying these boxes of tools from them [TS]

  these toy box is really now for a couple [TS]

  of decades and we each of us have [TS]

  sitting on our desk the ability to make [TS]

  up make it a complete film with [TS]

  animation and all the music and you know [TS]

  like importantly that you can shoot it [TS]

  and edit it and shoot it on your phone [TS]

  right shoot it edit it even compose them [TS]

  you don't have to even play an [TS]

  instrument because all the musical parts [TS]

  are in there you just have to cut and [TS]

  paste them and make a new symphony and [TS]

  you know the I mean I you can't resent [TS]

  them for it because it's a beautiful [TS]

  idea and it's a beaut and they have [TS]

  actually made very elegant software that [TS]

  enables us to do it but but once again [TS]

  the number of people that are actually [TS]

  making films it like it more or less has [TS]

  remained constant but what we all have [TS]

  now is like hast giant it's super [TS]

  expensive gift boxes that's it on our [TS]

  table tops and say look how elegant I [TS]

  him and you could be making a film on me [TS]

  right now if you were just slightly more [TS]

  of a person you could be making you [TS]

  could be you could be right you could [TS]

  already be writing the book about the [TS]

  making of the film right but you're not [TS]

  and it's not that you don't have the [TS]

  tools you have the tools it is something [TS]

  else some other flaw in you and I [TS]

  already had that voice in me I didn't [TS]

  need a elegant white box to amplify it [TS]

  every morning when I woke up and walked [TS]

  past my elegant box of tools [TS]

  that is basically just as a well stroll [TS]

  voice now my cereal my serie just speaks [TS]

  to me in Welsh and and you know and but [TS]

  that has always been the case because [TS]

  before Apple came along I mean I am I am [TS]

  a middle-class person who was given the [TS]

  opportunity over and over again the art [TS]

  lessons or nobody nobody insisted that I [TS]

  major in engineering in college like i [TS]

  was invited to major in literature or [TS]

  whatever struck my fancy you know and [TS]

  and so the burden of why i have not made [TS]

  as much beautiful stuff as I as I feel I [TS]

  should have the burden of that is all on [TS]

  me I that I cannot point to any to any [TS]

  obstacle any real obstacle that is [TS]

  outside myself and I wonder whether that [TS]

  it is part of this conversation that [TS]

  we've been having for my four months and [TS]

  years about about this generation that's [TS]

  on our heels that is like so that is so [TS]

  excited about all the obstacles that [TS]

  they perceived in the culture you know [TS]

  that the reason they haven't succeeded [TS]

  is because of of reasons will write all [TS]

  the institutional institutional problems [TS]

  that maybe you maybe you look at them [TS]

  when you see them as being a privilege [TS]

  middle-class person but that's not how [TS]

  they see themselves because you're not [TS]

  perceiving the all the all the cultural [TS]

  walls that prevent them from using their [TS]

  little white boxes to make you don't [TS]

  been in particular all the ones that [TS]

  don't have the little white box that [TS]

  have to use a dell which also has all [TS]

  the same software or maybe doesn't even [TS]

  have a dell maybe has to go to the [TS]

  computer science center at the library [TS]

  to use their incredible little white [TS]

  boxes that are available free to anyone [TS]

  um yeah I mean you know what I got a lot [TS]

  of thoughts on this but i mean i'll keep [TS]

  it short that one thing is that we [TS]

  really are still in the infancy of a lot [TS]

  of this stuff the problem you're [TS]

  describing is is not new but what is new [TS]

  is that I mean in the course of wanting [TS]

  to take 20 years [TS]

  really you know in the course of really [TS]

  kind of five years but especially above [TS]

  10 years we've gone from so many things [TS]

  that were out of touch out of reach [TS]

  either so I mean so many things where as [TS]

  we've talked about ad nauseam [TS]

  I mean a time when the idea of being [TS]

  able to pretty to write perform produce [TS]

  and publish and sell your own music [TS]

  each required a different special set of [TS]

  stuff that was costly maybe not the [TS]

  writing you can come along and play the [TS]

  ukulele but you know recording your [TS]

  music meant going to a studio certainly [TS]

  meant you know are buying and mastering [TS]

  an instrument getting that Preston [TS]

  mastered costs money getting that [TS]

  distributed to Sam Goody all of the [TS]

  steps you know it seems so far away and [TS]

  it's partly what made rockstar seem like [TS]

  rockstars is that all that stuff [TS]

  required the benediction of so many [TS]

  people and or you know or a fat wallet [TS]

  I mean you know you remember like seeing [TS]

  ads in the back of rolling stone for [TS]

  being able to publish your own book and [TS]

  the idea that generally least call it a [TS]

  vanity press right so you can go out and [TS]

  publish your memoirs and say I have a [TS]

  published book that I happen to about [TS]

  all 1,000 copies so I mean that's always [TS]

  been something that's available people [TS]

  but it's I think we're all I mean I [TS]

  don't know it's so different from person [TS]

  to person but I think we're all still [TS]

  catching up with that in some ways it's [TS]

  just that right now i think it is i [TS]

  don't know how much it says about like [TS]

  our artistic this is nothing overarching [TS]

  about their artistic future but you know [TS]

  it's just it is very easy and fun to [TS]

  take a photograph add some filters to it [TS]

  and put it somewhere you know they [TS]

  collect your stars is that that is [TS]

  really fun and there's a it's it's [TS]

  addictive and it's it's a big community [TS]

  kind of thing and if you want i'm trying [TS]

  to pivot to a bigger point here but in [TS]

  that case like I'm guilty as anybody of [TS]

  like saying oh gosh i said a funny thing [TS]

  i hope people like it [TS]

  I put up a pretty picture i hope people [TS]

  start it and that is what could be more [TS]

  distracting or more procrastination [TS]

  making or this is even setting aside the [TS]

  entire anger inch industry of all the [TS]

  things that we're supposed to be you [TS]

  know passionate about but in all in [TS]

  those cases I mean everybody knows what [TS]

  they've got on their phone everybody [TS]

  opens up garage band at least once in [TS]

  place with it you know people have [TS]

  probably edited you know videos of their [TS]

  baby when they're very motivated about [TS]

  that topic and send it to the family but [TS]

  it isn't something you keep going within [TS]

  the pivot is that this really awful and [TS]

  and annoying and in my experience [TS]

  absolutely true fact which is that [TS]

  to paraphrase things will durant you [TS]

  know we are what we do what we [TS]

  frequently do whatever it is that you do [TS]

  a lot is what you do and you know you [TS]

  talked about in a previous episode about [TS]

  manifesting about the idea of sort of [TS]

  announcing that you're now a [TS]

  professional photographer or one that [TS]

  always gets me is people announcing the [TS]

  third SEO expert or a thought leader it [TS]

  you know doesn't cost anything to do [TS]

  that and you know other people who are [TS]

  aspiring now look up to you because of [TS]

  that but it's not the same thing is [TS]

  showing up in doing that work every day [TS]

  so I mean what William seo seo again its [TS]

  search engine optimization and it's this [TS]

  huge industry google yeah it's it's the [TS]

  day the basic idea is in its to put it [TS]

  in the least you know value-laden way [TS]

  it's a way of making sure that the [TS]

  content on your website is being gobbled [TS]

  up properly by google but that gets [TS]

  darker and black hat it's a way of [TS]

  turning game system so that you show up [TS]

  at the top for viagra or whatever right [TS]

  but anyway I mean all I'm saying is like [TS]

  I'm this is I don't mean this as advice [TS]

  except in as much as it is advice that I [TS]

  need to hear which is that like you know [TS]

  what it really it's just a matter of if [TS]

  you write you get up every day and [TS]

  you're right well true regardless of [TS]

  where you are and that's what I struggle [TS]

  with because i know it really is that [TS]

  simple [TS]

  that's the part that that we're having [TS]

  this expensive and having a I could get [TS]

  up if i could get up at five an hour [TS]

  before my daughter wakes up and have an [TS]

  hour right if I wrote 15 minutes a day [TS]

  every day I have so much more written [TS]

  you know all the time that i SAT around [TS]

  thinking what I really need is to go on [TS]

  some kind of [TS]

  retreat so i can actually write the [TS]

  thing i need to write but yeah I've got [TS]

  an office where I can do that feel bad [TS]

  about that too [TS]

  that's the advice of bird by bird by [TS]

  annie Lamont yeah it's pretty it's [TS]

  pretty great book that's a nice little [TS]

  book [TS]

  announcer the artist with me but the [TS]

  artist way already [TS]

  that's it do morning pages ya at [TS]

  i mean i-i don't mean to describe all [TS]

  this stuff as as though it were an [TS]

  actual additional obstacle as much as to [TS]

  say it is another in a long line of non [TS]

  actual obstacles but that are but that [TS]

  are authentically obstacles you know I [TS]

  in the in the sense that in 1964 if you [TS]

  wanted to design a new car if you worked [TS]

  for General Motors and you wanted to [TS]

  design a new car you drew it on a big [TS]

  pad and then he went out and you [TS]

  constructed you constructed that drawing [TS]

  in three dimensions using clay and wood [TS]

  and shaped it with a you know with the [TS]

  exacto knife until it looked like the [TS]

  GTO in your imagination to end the [TS]

  process that it took to get that drawing [TS]

  into production and to make a new car [TS]

  was incredibly labor-intensive and yet [TS]

  at some point it happened every year you [TS]

  know they redesigned those cars every [TS]

  year the difference between 56 and 57 [TS]

  Chevy and the 58 Chevy I mean they don't [TS]

  look alike at all they were redesigning [TS]

  those cars using clay models and [TS]

  everybody signed off on it and put those [TS]

  cars and production and were you know [TS]

  and I and across town there were people [TS]

  that were making missile trajectories [TS]

  they were calculating missile [TS]

  trajectories using slide rules and you [TS]

  know they did not have we now have the [TS]

  technology to calculate missile [TS]

  trajectories on our phone if you [TS]

  into and we now have the capability [TS]

  using auto drafting programs to just we [TS]

  could design a new car every day and [TS]

  make a 3d model of it our printer in our [TS]

  in our living rooms but if you look at [TS]

  the design of cars now or the design of [TS]

  buildings or the really the design of [TS]

  anything i don't think i don't think [TS]

  it's just a matter of taste i think it [TS]

  is objectively worse and worse all the [TS]

  time right [TS]

  the easier and easier it gets to make [TS]

  things is related [TS]

  well i can't i can't feel like it's not [TS]

  it in the sense that in the sense that [TS]

  it what used to be special knowledge [TS]

  that was um that was prized knowledge is [TS]

  now diffuse knowledge if you call [TS]

  yourself a car designer and you design a [TS]

  bunch of cars like-- way if if General [TS]

  Motors if General Motors I I cannot [TS]

  imagine what is happening in the car [TS]

  design salons at general motors but I [TS]

  have to imagine that what we're there [TS]

  once was a room and some people with [TS]

  theirs in their shirtsleeves and [TS]

  horn-rimmed glasses like walking around [TS]

  drafting tables and at a certain point [TS]

  the design had to come out of somebody [TS]

  and then if if the committee or other [TS]

  people wanted modifications made you [TS]

  know they each time knew it was kind of [TS]

  like recording on tape right [TS]

  you knew what the limitations were [TS]

  before you made a suggestion [TS]

  so it's like okay we just recorded that [TS]

  track live the bass player made a little [TS]

  fun it's the bass player screwed up a [TS]

  little bit [TS]

  is it worth it for us to go back and [TS]

  record that entire thing and and and and [TS]

  shoot for the moon for knowing that [TS]

  we're going to either be burning tape [TS]

  that's expensive or that work that we [TS]

  might lose this take like the [TS]

  limitations of number of tracks and [TS]

  stuff like that and all that stuff and [TS]

  so so before anyone made a suggestion [TS]

  everybody had it in their mind that like [TS]

  oh if i want to change some minor thing [TS]

  about the tail light of this design this [TS]

  talented draftsperson and the designer [TS]

  they're going to have to go back and [TS]

  redo this whole thing and it's going to [TS]

  take them a lot longer and it's gonna [TS]

  and it's expensive to do [TS]

  it's not a question of just moving the [TS]

  mouse and the thing you know like let's [TS]

  try that let's make let's take a look [TS]

  and see if what if the taillights were [TS]

  oval-shaped what if the taillights were [TS]

  shaped like a bat you know it was and so [TS]

  what ended up happening was the design [TS]

  more or less came out of one person's [TS]

  imagination [TS]

  maybe you made some suggestions but but [TS]

  for the most part like the the work in [TS]

  getting it to to the place where [TS]

  everybody could even see it was was the [TS]

  lion's share of the work and i can i can [TS]

  only picture now just as in the [TS]

  recording studio the ease of putting on [TS]

  a thousand tracks the ease of [TS]

  manipulating the waveform of the [TS]

  baseline we're like able to grab like [TS]

  drag across the screen and grabbed 10 or [TS]

  15 points on a vector 3d vector drawing [TS]

  and drag them to completely change the [TS]

  shape of the car [TS]

  yeah right we're at and so anybody [TS]

  walking through that salon who has the [TS]

  clearance who is who has made it to the [TS]

  level of of manager can waltz by [TS]

  presumably and say what if the hole par [TS]

  was two inches shorter and two inches [TS]

  taller and everybody knows that there's [TS]

  no cost to making that suggestion so [TS]

  even though the designer is sitting at [TS]

  the computer going oh my god please fuck [TS]

  off [TS]

  he he kinda has to look and answer to [TS]

  the guy be like okay sure [TS]

  let's try it and so he makes it two [TS]

  inches taller he makes it two inches [TS]

  shorter and the guy goes like that [TS]

  better [TS]

  and the designer goes fuck it's worse [TS]

  we call that over-the-shoulder time if [TS]

  you ever if you ever go to like the [TS]

  print bureau that we used to go to in [TS]

  Tallahassee had they had a rate in a [TS]

  rush rate and they had an [TS]

  over-the-shoulder time rate which is not [TS]

  if the person with the print job stood [TS]

  over you while you were doing stuff with [TS]

  it on the computer you have to pay a lot [TS]

  more I bet right but you know but that's [TS]

  that's got to be happening everywhere [TS]

  and and so as i drive around the city [TS]

  you know I can pin i can point to a [TS]

  building and tell you whether that [TS]

  building whether that building was [TS]

  designed you know sort of pre or post [TS]

  autocad right you can point you can [TS]

  point to the you can point to the the [TS]

  architecture of the development of [TS]

  neighborhoods of things and at a point [TS]

  at which it was no longer expensive to [TS]

  design things really the quality of the [TS]

  design just like drops and and so [TS]

  because all of a sudden now you're like [TS]

  well the design is just a thing that we [TS]

  just can do and so now it's a question [TS]

  of how much is the matter how much is a [TS]

  cost how much are the materials gonna be [TS]

  too and so there's a designer there was [TS]

  like a night then I put dragons all [TS]

  across the top of the building and every [TS]

  window is is quadruple pain purple glass [TS]

  and there's somebody that's like well no [TS]

  that's too expensive [TS]

  can you figure out a way to do it [TS]

  without those things and the guys like [TS]

  delete delete delete delete [TS]

  yeah here's here's the version of it [TS]

  without anything [TS]

  yeah that looks good to me does that [TS]

  look at you yeah okay good let's go and [TS]

  it's true across the board meeting you [TS]

  think about contemporary car design the [TS]

  way that they they do things now as they [TS]

  they make a platform and then that [TS]

  platform runs for 15 years and every [TS]

  every year they just changed a slightly [TS]

  change that tail lights and the you know [TS]

  they make a little modification here a [TS]

  little modification there was only one [TS]

  way one way they that those places I [TS]

  assume are similar to apple or any [TS]

  electronics maker is that I don't say [TS]

  they start with the components [TS]

  but I mean one reason you may or may not [TS]

  see a revision is they have to offset [TS]

  the cost of what they're losing in scale [TS]

  so for example they could put out the [TS]

  five applicable about the 5c because [TS]

  using the same processor as the iphone [TS]

  what4s my phone in anyway the point is [TS]

  they had gotten a break because they [TS]

  were buying such volume it's very costly [TS]

  to to start all over with stuff that [TS]

  you're going to try to make it scale you [TS]

  know anything but so for my part like [TS]

  the projects that i have in mind right [TS]

  now are but I should finish my album i [TS]

  should also finish an album of songs [TS]

  that are different than the songs that [TS]

  I'm making currently like an album of [TS]

  songs that do not sound like the long [TS]

  winters furniture she crazy my Sunday's [TS]

  record right i should finish my book [TS]

  about my walk across Europe please I [TS]

  should my wife that's about that if you [TS]

  should you know anybody who you let read [TS]

  part of that book is like what is with [TS]

  him [TS]

  it's such a good book but i'm [TS]

  sympathetic but still I should finish or [TS]

  I should then write my book i should [TS]

  write my theory of feminism mm which is [TS]

  you know going to be pretty thick book [TS]

  but it's gonna change the way we look at [TS]

  the world i should write my book on [TS]

  economics again massive tongue and write [TS]

  a book on economics [TS]

  yeah absolutely oh those are hot right [TS]

  now I have a really good book on [TS]

  economics that's going to blow people's [TS]

  minds but you know it really suits the [TS]

  hard work it requires it requires [TS]

  research wikipedia i wouldn't heat [TS]

  agreed at least three minions or i could [TS]

  sit and be like what is the lab figure [TS]

  out how much trees are worth [TS]

  and you know and then also i have i have [TS]

  essentially if I collected all of my [TS]

  seattle weekly columns all the columns [TS]

  I've written in the last couple of years [TS]

  there is the thread of a kind of [TS]

  rock-and-roll autobiography / you know [TS]

  book of cultural musings i mean the the [TS]

  the page count is already there [TS]

  it just requires like the connective [TS]

  tissue nice to think that yeah I know [TS]

  right and uh and so all these things are [TS]

  like Oh yash you know it isn't a [TS]

  question of pick one and go [TS]

  it is because because if I pick 1i work [TS]

  on it for a little while and I'm like up [TS]

  at that other thing ever and and I can [TS]

  you know I have to imagine that that [TS]

  that that writers have been doing this [TS]

  for centuries right and the the [TS]

  unpublished works of all my heroes are [TS]

  all these like half thought-out [TS]

  scribbles and outlines of the books that [TS]

  they should be writing and so forth and [TS]

  so on but you know in addition to all of [TS]

  that work you know I have to maintain my [TS]

  Twitter and I still haven't graduated [TS]

  from college and other people's twitter [TS]

  i have to maintain other people's [TS]

  Twitter you got it you know what are you [TS]

  going to make make corrections yeah [TS]

  arata so I mean I obviously like I don't [TS]

  believe that the technology isn't is a [TS]

  is any kind of new inhibition because [TS]

  it's just it is just given shape and a [TS]

  different shape and form two very old [TS]

  inhibitions are very old roadblocks in [TS]

  between as you say the real process of [TS]

  just what wake up in the morning and [TS]

  writing which is which couldn't be [TS]

  simpler and yet it's not easy it's [TS]

  simple but it's not easy right [TS]

  and yet each new tool i mean i remember [TS]

  i remember WordStar and sitting and [TS]

  working inward star and having to having [TS]

  to remember the commands [TS]

  for all the very simple little edits [TS]

  that you wanted to make and you know and [TS]

  feeling like this is better than a [TS]

  typewriter because with a typewriter you [TS]

  can't go back and change a whole [TS]

  paragraph but but the the fact of a [TS]

  typewriter is that once you write the [TS]

  paragraph it at least as written [TS]

  you can go back in and cross it out with [TS]

  a red pen [TS]

  yeah but but it's there and maybe maybe [TS]

  two months later you come back and [TS]

  you're like why did I cross that out [TS]

  that was actually the the germ of a [TS]

  great idea and in word processing [TS]

  software you know you i will all the [TS]

  time delete a page of stuff that is just [TS]

  sort of deleted right i mean i guess i [TS]

  could go back to an earlier draft but [TS]

  never do right and a lot of times you [TS]

  delete as you're writing and it's just [TS]

  like nope nope nope nope nope and what [TS]

  you end up with is what you end up with [TS]

  and a lot of times it feels like it's [TS]

  what you settle on rather than what you [TS]

  rather than it being crafted [TS]

  particularly crafted you know i have [TS]

  i've recently gotten to be friends with [TS]

  this guy is going to virtually [TS]

  impossible to track his name because [TS]

  anybody can get this guy is but he's on [TS]

  is it [TS]

  I you know I use this word [TS]

  parsimoniously I think he's very [TS]

  inspiring times yep yep he's a good man [TS]

  now this guy is either as a webcomic [TS]

  that he puts up every day and he's it's [TS]

  pretty popular it's pretty super popular [TS]

  and it's so he's just there in Photoshop [TS]

  and makes this webcomic and he puts it [TS]

  up you know every night by midnight and [TS]

  that's just the thing that he does every [TS]

  day growing it but there's so much about [TS]

  what he does that I want to see [TS]

  inspiring it's like I want to steal his [TS]

  ideas for what he does [TS]

  it's not that in that sense it's not so [TS]

  different from blogging in some ways but [TS]

  he has up you know a pretty rabid [TS]

  following for his comic but like he's [TS]

  just strikes me as such a smart guy [TS]

  because that's if you ask what he does [TS]

  you say all he does is comic you've [TS]

  heard of [TS]

  called this and he does that he puts it [TS]

  up every night but like he really he [TS]

  interests me because first of all he [TS]

  does that every day which is harder than [TS]

  it sounds having something you gotta do [TS]

  you haven't seen the desert there's a [TS]

  pretty good documentary recent [TS]

  documentary called stripped it's all [TS]

  about comic strips and making them and [TS]

  it lots of great interviews and watching [TS]

  people draw but its trajectory is real [TS]

  drudgery have to you know turn in weeks [TS]

  of Kathy or whatever like there's a lot [TS]

  of work to it but anyhow but what so [TS]

  that's interesting to me that he manages [TS]

  to pull that off every day but other [TS]

  things that appeal like you know he's [TS]

  like a better word leverage that into [TS]

  these other things so basically he's [TS]

  just constantly making web comics and [TS]

  he's making in with these characters [TS]

  you're familiar with selected a he put a [TS]

  post on medium he has a column [TS]

  quote-unquote in Macworld every week one [TS]

  of his you know cartoons is featured in [TS]

  Macworld and but you know it all started [TS]

  with this thing where he just had a [TS]

  thing you put on the web and now that's [TS]

  in turn in all those places now here's [TS]

  the twist is that he's a very [TS]

  frustrating character to a lot of people [TS]

  because he I don't think he has any [TS]

  advertising on the site if he does it's [TS]

  just for his stuff because what he's [TS]

  done is also built this platform of like [TS]

  selling so many like t-shirts and coffee [TS]

  cups and ice scrapers and stuff that [TS]

  it's really really fun stuff that people [TS]

  love to get and I think people that [TS]

  makes people love him even more that [TS]

  he's like here you like the comic don't [TS]

  worry about the abs like by the ice [TS]

  scraper it's a really cool ice scraper [TS]

  and that's and that's his thing now is [TS]

  like he's just constantly making comics [TS]

  constantly putting them out but then his [TS]

  whole like revenue thing is about making [TS]

  things and selling them and either [TS]

  something really appealing about that to [TS]

  me at first I love the idea of making a [TS]

  thing that you sell to people like well [TS]

  that's a nap or whatever it is there's [TS]

  something I have to admit a little [TS]

  appealing to me about a physical good [TS]

  even though God that overhead that is [TS]

  just crazy but i don't know i find [TS]

  something like that so inspiring were [TS]

  like to me that's it that's a success [TS]

  story and what the tools let us do in so [TS]

  many ways and how the changing platform [TS]

  hasn't left him behind because well [TS]

  everybody's running around scrambling [TS]

  trying to get more I mean do you ever [TS]

  look at i don't know i read a lot on my [TS]

  iphone and ipad read a lot of news [TS]

  stories will follow a link somewhere and [TS]

  you know used to joke about used to give [TS]

  me a hard time about you know websites [TS]

  where the content is the size of a can [TS]

  of tuna and then it's just surrounded by [TS]

  ads that's how I feel now I can't even [TS]

  scroll down the page because there's [TS]

  just so many ads on the page and the [TS]

  irony is of course they could give a [TS]

  flying Fig about any of those [TS]

  advertisers they treat them all equally [TS]

  poorly but there's something I don't [TS]

  know I I find that really appealing [TS]

  somebody who's been able to and he's [TS]

  certainly not alone in that but the idea [TS]

  of like making a little thing every day [TS]

  putting it out and being able to do that [TS]

  on your own not being behold in to a [TS]

  given one source of income for what you [TS]

  do I find that really inspiring and I [TS]

  think it's a good example though not [TS]

  everybody can do it but not everybody's [TS]

  trying to do it and that's something [TS]

  we're like he's found a way using those [TS]

  tools the changes in the platform the [TS]

  changes in the environment around what's [TS]

  possible [TS]

  I mean that would not have been [TS]

  inconceivable to do it conceivable you [TS]

  couldn't make money off it [TS]

  you couldn't have made those kinds of [TS]

  goods that quickly and sold them 10 or [TS]

  15 years ago thats all gotten so much [TS]

  easier we've talked about doing t-shirts [TS]

  on demand teach we should totally do by [TS]

  the way but I don't know I i like [TS]

  looking at examples where that did turn [TS]

  out well and he's constantly stressed [TS]

  out because not stressed out but I mean [TS]

  it's a lot of pressure to have to do [TS]

  that everyday [TS]

  no I don't have the pressure that I feel [TS]

  that I'm not making stuffed his pressure [TS]

  is that he has a thing that he makes [TS]

  every day and then people love it and I [TS]

  don't know something like I'm really [TS]

  appealing about that i'm not about to [TS]

  say that these tools don't make us [TS]

  progressed anymore because they [TS]

  certainly can and they can guilt us but [TS]

  I think we need to look at people who [TS]

  are finding a way to like have a [TS]

  creative voice and a way to make dough [TS]

  in a way that would be inconceivable a [TS]

  few years ago and I think that's going [TS]

  to change has to change even more and [TS]

  more quickly like in the next five years [TS]

  you know I mean well I do but but I feel [TS]

  like and Anna and I admire your friend [TS]

  too and and and aspire to that kind of [TS]

  program channel envious special envious [TS]

  though man and there and there are there [TS]

  are innumerable examples in among our [TS]

  friends where it's like oh I aspire to [TS]

  to have a workflow like that person and [TS]

  to make good stuff like that person does [TS]

  but but i do feel like this but I feel [TS]

  like zooming out from an economic [TS]

  perspective or from from a larger [TS]

  cultural perspective all right [TS]

  look on economics it's right that really [TS]

  what that is is returning to an almost [TS]

  medieval economy where each person is [TS]

  sort of carving little appleheads [TS]

  carving you know carving little shrunken [TS]

  appleheads and selling them up at the at [TS]

  the fair where each we each have a [TS]

  little booth where we are producing our [TS]

  small little product arrowheads [TS]

  matchbooks souvenir spoons souvenir [TS]

  spoons and we're going out to to the to [TS]

  the ren faire and each of us kind of you [TS]

  know trying at even successfully making [TS]

  a living with our little where's and [TS]

  it's it's very different from from a [TS]

  system whereby we are [TS]

  I mean that for instance that is not how [TS]

  you would build an interstate highway [TS]

  system nor is it how you would build a [TS]

  skyscraper or even work a farm you know [TS]

  it is it's it's very siloed it's very [TS]

  much not thinking of not thinking of the [TS]

  system as a thing that we are actively [TS]

  changing but it's just like okay this is [TS]

  the system and hear how do i find a way [TS]

  within it to make you know to make my [TS]

  booth unique enough that people come [TS]

  here and buy you know because ultimately [TS]

  like ultimately t-shirt sales like we [TS]

  all have all the t-shirts we need and so [TS]

  any new t-shirt is just a tshirt up it [TS]

  there any new t-shirt is an except as an [TS]

  excessive t-shirt right i mean like if [TS]

  every one of us is making a living [TS]

  selling t-shirts it is at a certain [TS]

  point we're going to run out of clean [TS]

  ones I wasn't implying everyone should [TS]

  do it all right but I mean but that but [TS]

  this is that this is the thing about [TS]

  this is the thing we've all experienced [TS]

  in bands for the last ten years which is [TS]

  like are we really in t-shirt sales is [TS]

  that what we are that was the suggestion [TS]

  10 years ago or would you rather be in [TS]

  ad sales [TS]

  well no you wouldn't but you'd rather be [TS]

  in music sales where you are you know [TS]

  where you're selling your music [TS]

  and people told us in 2005 that that [TS]

  wasn't what we could expect that anymore [TS]

  because music should be free and if you [TS]

  if you were really good people would [TS]

  keep by your t-shirt and that that's [TS]

  what you should you know that that's [TS]

  where you should go [TS]

  and-and-and-and all power to the all [TS]

  power to the music is free people but I [TS]

  but you know what I'm saying like no [TS]

  it's not it's at that's not directed at [TS]

  any one person and it isn't directed at [TS]

  you and me trying to sell rock on the [TS]

  line t-shirts because I would be [TS]

  thrilled to do it now let's solve [TS]

  themselves where they thought you know [TS]

  what I mean like running on the line [TS]

  t-shirts there's already bootleg rocker [TS]

  milan t-shirts and I want to discourage [TS]

  anyone that's listening to the show from [TS]

  ever bootlegging because we're our team [TS]

  of lawyers is going to come after you [TS]

  like I can barracudas coming down the [TS]

  tapers but uh you know what home t-shirt [TS]

  making is killing podcasts but yeah but [TS]

  but from the perspective of like well [TS]

  what are we doing as humans where are we [TS]

  headed what is that what is like what is [TS]

  a our plan [TS]

  I don't feel like the atomization of of [TS]

  making is necessarily of step forward it [TS]

  and maybe it is that's the thing maybe [TS]

  maybe 10 years from now we will look [TS]

  back and be like oh it was only through [TS]

  the atomization of making and that that [TS]

  the and the democratization of of [TS]

  manufacturing I guess that we were able [TS]

  to arrive at this next place which was [TS]

  actually an advancement of of thinking [TS]

  you know like an a brand new way of [TS]

  imagining us as humans but building [TS]

  something new / but at least for now [TS]

  right now it just feels like okay [TS]

  everybody's got a garage sale now like [TS]

  we have gone we have lost our industrial [TS]

  base we have lost a degree of collective [TS]

  cooperative making of things [TS]

  and now we just have 1,000,000 garage [TS]

  sales and and we are being encouraged at [TS]

  random and Apple or the the internet are [TS]

  our internet overlords are encouraging [TS]

  us to everyone of us have an etsy store [TS]

  but that isn't like really progress [TS]

  we're back to selling our knitting which [TS]

  was thing that we've been doing for a [TS]

  long long time and the fact that it's [TS]

  not that we have a website to do it is [TS]

  it doesn't change the fact that it's but [TS]

  it's just knitting so yeah I mean I you [TS]

  know that but I want a part of the thing [TS]

  like with whether it's with gm's or GM [TS]

  or highways or whatever it is that [TS]

  there's not the money at an [TS]

  institutional level that there used to [TS]

  be two those kinds of things but I mean [TS]

  there's so much money now more than ever [TS]

  before all over [TS]

  yeah i mean i-i think about like oh I [TS]

  want to publish a book right [TS]

  I definitely do not want to die if you [TS]

  don't want to die unpublished I don't [TS]

  want to die from this life without [TS]

  having published at least one book and [TS]

  hopefully more than one but looking at [TS]

  my shelf of books then I'm you know that [TS]

  I'm sitting here like lovingly like [TS]

  calling with my eyes if i were to [TS]

  publish a book now [TS]

  um it it it wouldn't be like those books [TS]

  right i think i think just as just as [TS]

  started happening in music where people [TS]

  are like what are you actually going to [TS]

  make a CD or you're just going to put it [TS]

  up online like when that became a [TS]

  question when that became a valid [TS]

  question [TS]

  not not a question that you would just [TS]

  ask abandoned thought they were going to [TS]

  sell 500 CDs but a band that you would [TS]

  or a question you would ask like an [TS]

  established artists are you really going [TS]

  to manufacture cds or you just gonna [TS]

  just going to release it on iTunes put [TS]

  it up online [TS]

  it was like oh wow it's that happened so [TS]

  fast that music went from you know that [TS]

  that then it and then an album was [TS]

  something that you owned and and even [TS]

  clean took care of yeah right you know [TS]

  cleaned and and took out and looked out [TS]

  of the tized that it just became like [TS]

  ours you just gonna you're just going to [TS]

  hook it into the sea with everything [TS]

  else and and and your music is going to [TS]

  be valued accordingly you know you're [TS]

  out of your new album comes out and a [TS]

  certain small segment of people put it [TS]

  on repeat or put it on their iPads and [TS]

  listen to it at the gym but a lot of [TS]

  people will you no will download one [TS]

  song off of it listen to a once and then [TS]

  they'll and then it's not that they [TS]

  don't like it they downloaded they [TS]

  listen to it they're left how people [TS]

  consume music anymore and it just goes [TS]

  into the things so now if you're if [TS]

  you're like I have a new book I think [TS]

  we're very very close to a time when the [TS]

  question is well are you actually I mean [TS]

  you know how expensive it is to actually [TS]

  publish it as a book you know isn't it [TS]

  just a kindle file and and so it isn't a [TS]

  book you know like let's stop kidding it [TS]

  let's stop kidding ourselves that we [TS]

  have that bans are making albums anymore [TS]

  they're not and let's stop kidding [TS]

  ourselves that people are writing books [TS]

  anymore they're not i was on an airplane [TS]

  with them with our good friend John [TS]

  Hodgman the other day and he was like [TS]

  listen we're gonna go meet george RR [TS]

  martin and you have never you've never [TS]

  read a word of his writing and you are [TS]

  an embarrassment to me [TS]

  and I was like well I mean I've been [TS]

  meaning to and he handed me his phone [TS]

  and it was a game with he had game of [TS]

  thrones on his phone and I was like whoa [TS]

  you you actually read it and he was like [TS]

  i have read it you don't do that you [TS]

  know my books away on my phone [TS]

  well phone iPad Mac yeah okay do not [TS]

  know I still buy them in book form and [TS]

  so but i'm sitting on an airplane and [TS]

  I'm and I start to read game of thrones [TS]

  on Hodgins phone and it [TS]

  on Hodgins phone and it [TS]

  it's a it's a nice like the interface is [TS]

  nice that the it's definitely different [TS]

  it's different but I mean but it's nice [TS]

  because the type of the type is is big [TS]

  it's easy to read [TS]

  maybe maybe he gave the easy-to-read [TS]

  version or you know the grandpa font but [TS]

  you know you you read and then you flip [TS]

  to the next page and each each screen is [TS]

  much shorter than a page of typewritten [TS]

  book writing is like a paragraph and a [TS]

  little a paragraph in a little but that [TS]

  but i found very quickly that that was [TS]

  kind of an enjoyable way to read because [TS]

  you you kind of get you have a thought [TS]

  and then you flip to the next page and [TS]

  you have another thought [TS]

  and so pretty soon i'm sitting on this [TS]

  airplane and i'm not talking to him i'm [TS]

  reading I'm reading game of thrones on [TS]

  his phone and by the time the plane [TS]

  landed i had read a couple of chapters [TS]

  and and I really enjoyed it enjoyed the [TS]

  ease of reading it on my phone or his [TS]

  phone and I was like okay right like I [TS]

  can't be opposed to that because that [TS]

  was nice that was that was pretty great [TS]

  and it's dumb to be opposed to something [TS]

  that is happening that's already [TS]

  happening and its really like [TS]

  value-neutral right it's just it's just [TS]

  easy and it's and it's no different [TS]

  the reading part i guess is no different [TS]

  but when I think about like I wrote a [TS]

  book and i am happy to publish it and [TS]

  the fact that it's not probably going to [TS]

  be a book an actual book or that if it [TS]

  is it if it is an actual book it's like [TS]

  it's like releasing records on vinyl now [TS]

  hardcover book without a slip slip case [TS]

  like a with that the cover on it [TS]

  yeah that is it is stacked in a pyramid [TS]

  in the window of a bookstore right that [TS]

  people go in excitedly to buy it in that [TS]

  form and carry it around in there in [TS]

  their bag [TS]

  and read it on park benches or whatever [TS]

  you know that that that makes it that [TS]

  makes me feel that makes me feel sad [TS]

  which i think is just nostalgia or it's [TS]

  just it's just like oh that makes me [TS]

  feel sad well too bad but but but it [TS]

  changes the nature of changes my feeling [TS]

  about it in a and like a in a kind of a [TS]

  primary way and I think it changes like [TS]

  it [TS]

  it shatters what it is it isn't a book [TS]

  right [TS]

  it's a like it is it a mean game of [TS]

  thrones obviously was published first is [TS]

  a book now I'm reading it on a phone but [TS]

  if that was published today like it's a [TS]

  novel but what is it a blog even you [TS]

  know what I mean like yeah I think I do [TS]

  I mean you know I've always been really [TS]

  interested in I had a lot of friends in [TS]

  college in particular I mean like [TS]

  everybody I knew I kind of horrid books [TS]

  I wanted books i want to have books [TS]

  around I could totally round boxes from [TS]

  place to place [TS]

  I think it's I think it's someone [TS]

  important one way it is i think it is [TS]

  pretty different maybe from music and [TS]

  maybe even comics I don't know is i [TS]

  think there are people who like books [TS]

  and there are people who like reading [TS]

  and as it happens the Venn diagram for [TS]

  that is pretty tight that the most [TS]

  people who like reading like books and [TS]

  most people like books like reading but [TS]

  I mean there are I i do i have to say i [TS]

  have a lot of friends that did say [TS]

  they're reading more than they ever have [TS]

  in years because they can get on a plane [TS]

  with all of those books on it I that [TS]

  they would never in a million years [TS]

  truck around a candidate to flip that [TS]

  around you know I can't say for how many [TS]

  years I would go to books-a-million in [TS]

  the nineties and you know pick up five [TS]

  books and kind of glanced through the [TS]

  first chapter of three of them maybe [TS]

  read one of them maybe read the fifth [TS]

  one year later like I've always really [TS]

  loved books but you know having that at [TS]

  at hand i don't know i mean it's it's [TS]

  it's a different it's a different kind [TS]

  of thing but I take your point but do [TS]

  you feel [TS]

  I mean I guess I guess it's the it's the [TS]

  it's the in a way the democratization of [TS]

  the platform right like [TS]

  there was a there used to be a huge [TS]

  difference between putting on a vinyl [TS]

  record and listening to your friends [TS]

  demo on his cassette recorder and you [TS]

  you would you listen to your friends [TS]

  demo on a cassette recorder need to be [TS]

  like oh yeah yeah sounds good man your [TS]

  band sounds great and then you would go [TS]

  put on your vinyl record that was you [TS]

  know that just by the format alone you [TS]

  knew was something special and now you [TS]

  put on your headphones he sit in front [TS]

  of your computer and you listen to your [TS]

  friends demo and you listen to a [TS]

  major-label release and you can hear the [TS]

  difference but in some cases the major [TS]

  label releases intentionally loaf I and [TS]

  your friends demo has been dressed up [TS]

  with a lot of expensive sounding [TS]

  plug-ins and it's just as over [TS]

  compressed as top 40 that you hear on [TS]

  the radio [TS]

  yeah and it's like you know in a way yes [TS]

  the the quality of the of the good stuff [TS]

  should always win out and you should be [TS]

  able with your eyes closed to tell the [TS]

  difference between something really [TS]

  wonderful and something that is just [TS]

  made to approximate something wonderful [TS]

  but the demo we describe the demo is [TS]

  more like a sketch in some ways where [TS]

  everybody knew that it wasn't the [TS]

  finished product it was meant to be [TS]

  something to give you the gist right [TS]

  well and and and ultimately like for [TS]

  that for that because the for that [TS]

  cassette demo to make it all the way to [TS]

  a vinyl record required as you were [TS]

  describing so many intermediary steps [TS]

  where it had to get where somebody had [TS]

  to say like yes this is good enough to [TS]

  make it to the next level and that and [TS]

  what I remember the feeling of having a [TS]

  cassette demo of my band and feeling [TS]

  like there's no way we will ever make an [TS]

  actual album we're just not good enough [TS]

  but here we have this cassette and you [TS]

  know like i can play it for people in a [TS]

  party but now reading a novel on your [TS]

  phone [TS]

  and then using that same device to read [TS]

  a YouTube comic comments section or [TS]

  using your same device to read a you [TS]

  know [TS]

  buzzfeed ultimately you're interacting [TS]

  with the device the same way and the [TS]

  words look the same team and so it's a [TS]

  very different experience of you know of [TS]

  reading of reading everything fit [TS]

  through the same window and I have to [TS]

  imagine that like your brain like the [TS]

  work of saying like oh this is thomas [TS]

  pynchon this is good and now i'm on a [TS]

  comment section and this is bad or this [TS]

  is garbage right and um you will we're [TS]

  not we're not we're not taking the [TS]

  intermediary steps of like okay I'm you [TS]

  know I'm not listening to talk radio [TS]

  anymore now I'm putting the radio off [TS]

  i'm going over I'm taking the I'm taking [TS]

  the book down i'm changing gears I'm [TS]

  it's just a different app essentially [TS]

  right and so when you're when you work [TS]

  on it when you work on a novel or a book [TS]

  of ideas and you're like I am adding my [TS]

  book of ideas to the world conversation [TS]

  and people are reading your book of [TS]

  ideas and scanned switching between [TS]

  twitter which is a world of ideas and [TS]

  BuzzFeed which is a world of ideas and [TS]

  all the ideas end up kind of being in a [TS]

  soup of ideas and it's hard to remember [TS]

  which ones are the good ones and which [TS]

  ones are the bad ones [TS]

  there's no we're not allowing ourselves [TS]

  the we're not making any word [TS]

  privileging any ideas over any others in [TS]

  a way even even just by format [TS]

  I don't know it feel it feels ultimately [TS]

  I that I have this problem all the time [TS]

  where it's like I don't remember where i [TS]

  read that i read that in The New Yorker [TS]

  or did somebody did somebody comment on [TS]

  a chem trails website up and I read it [TS]

  there and you know nobody is chasing [TS]

  down attributions nobody i mean III by [TS]

  posted a carl sagan quote on my Twitter [TS]

  the other day and yet you know [TS]

  yes I yeah and you know like probably [TS]

  eighty percent of the replies were like [TS]

  wow amazing and then ten percent of the [TS]

  replies work that's probably a fake [TS]

  quote because generally any time [TS]

  somebody says something really smart and [TS]

  appreciates it turns out that it's fake [TS]

  and then ten percent of the people who [TS]

  labored to explain to me how Carl Sagan [TS]

  could not actually see into the future [TS]

  but all of his observations were obvious [TS]

  and not an elite unit that's the girl [TS]

  saying quote right and so all the people [TS]

  are like wow amazing I mean that was the [TS]

  that was the the response i was trying [TS]

  to solicit but my Carl second quote on [TS]

  my Twitter was probably just one of like [TS]

  40 quotes that they read up between [TS]

  Facebook and wherever else they go and [TS]

  all of them are while amazing and all [TS]

  them completely out of context and then [TS]

  it was hilarious to me the people who [TS]

  believed who were chastising me for [TS]

  posting a fake quote the app that wasn't [TS]

  actually fake they didn't take the to [TS]

  check a check it down [TS]

  I did track you down and I reply to [TS]

  those people at least a couple of them [TS]

  until i got bored of doing that saying [TS]

  like here's you know here's the [TS]

  attribution of the quote it's actually a [TS]

  quote from a book [TS]

  but the best ones where the people who [TS]

  somehow mistook me saying like wow carl [TS]

  sagan could see into the future mistook [TS]

  that as me actually saying I believe [TS]

  that Carl Sagan could see the future you [TS]

  know like um like they didn't they [TS]

  didn't perceive that I was saying [TS]

  not that he could see the future but [TS]

  that but that isn't this it is an [TS]

  interesting remark [TS]

  isn't this interesting isn't this an [TS]

  interesting remark it seems it seems to [TS]

  apply to us now and I mean if I had read [TS]

  that in a book instead of reading it [TS]

  instead of like scraping it off with [TS]

  somebody else's twitter feed and [TS]

  repurposing it meeting somebody else [TS]

  it's photoshopped image taken quote [TS]

  gravitas if you read in the book I feel [TS]

  like it by and ready to begin to put it [TS]

  on your Pinterest but you know what [TS]

  maybe i would never maybe in my whole [TS]

  life I never would've read that book [TS]

  yeah so and right now I couldn't could [TS]

  tell you contain thing about that quote [TS]

  likely that was Mark Twain it's in the [TS]

  past that goes Eleanor Roosevelt group [TS]

  up i'm so sick of myself [TS]

  that journey [TS]