Roderick on the Line

Ep. 137: "Arsenal of Civilization"


  this episode of Roderick on the line is [TS]

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  [Music] [TS]

  hello hi John Admiral mmm yeah I'm [TS]

  Merlin how's it going [TS]

  we got to put that on a shirt i wonder [TS]

  how you spell it lots of peas and bees [TS]

  things are things are good things are [TS]

  good [TS]

  it's a i have not been sleeping enough [TS]

  oh dear I stay up late and then I wake [TS]

  up early and that's the that's a bad [TS]

  combo [TS]

  uh-huh that leads to some five hours of [TS]

  sleep pneus uh-huh five hours of sleep [TS]

  and then several days in a row and then [TS]

  pretty soon you're like huh I wonder why [TS]

  I feel like killing people [TS]

  mm because i have been sleeping enough [TS]

  homicidal of sleep deprivation [TS]

  yeah now it's just the worst i mean you [TS]

  know you can you can do one of those you [TS]

  do a couple of those and you know and [TS]

  also the thing is if your ice [TS]

  I don't know if it's because you're busy [TS]

  you're not busy or you're super busy but [TS]

  like if you're really busy [TS]

  yeah deadline and you do that you get [TS]

  some kind of like an adrenaline thing we [TS]

  get mad at the right thing [TS]

  hmm you don't mean you're like that I [TS]

  work well under those circumstances [TS]

  yeah but last night I was lying in bed [TS]

  and by the way happy happy new year John [TS]

  who is it [TS]

  oh yeah thank you as a few i had a [TS]

  pretty good new year [TS]

  yeah so I picture a pretty good new your [TS]

  time the guy across the street that's [TS]

  living in the van that I realized it is [TS]

  name isn't vani it's gary and of course [TS]

  if you're living in a van behind a hedge [TS]

  question is Gary get married why is that [TS]

  such a perfect name [TS]

  I don't know Gary and he and I have had [TS]

  several encounters lately and gary has a [TS]

  has that thing where you see him and you [TS]

  talked to him for 45 minutes and they [TS]

  see in the next day and and he's never [TS]

  met you before but I so i ended up [TS]

  I've tried to call my across-the-street [TS]

  neighbor several times and it's what [TS]

  it's a thing where the the anonymous [TS]

  voicemail [TS]

  voice answers the phone and says the [TS]

  mailbox is full and then just hangs up [TS]

  on you and it's and it's a weird voice [TS]

  it's not the voice that you normally [TS]

  hear it's like a voice that you might [TS]

  hear if you bought your phone at a gas [TS]

  station [TS]

  yeah i got verizon voice or something [TS]

  some kind of weird voice where it's like [TS]

  up the moist message bell box you're [TS]

  trying to reach is full [TS]

  click and so I was like uh you know [TS]

  Gary's out there is the ellen is yelling [TS]

  into the phone he's yelling at his [TS]

  ex-wife just one o'clock in the morning [TS]

  I don't wanna die I you know I don't [TS]

  want him with the fire hose but [TS]

  something's got you know like when i [TS]

  started that he won't remember the next [TS]

  day likely i started to ask myself the [TS]

  question [TS]

  hey what's the long game here is Gary [TS]

  gonna live in the van in the front yard [TS]

  of my neighbors house for another year [TS]

  or two years or five years like there's [TS]

  a little bit starting to he's a very [TS]

  angry guy and I have a little kid right [TS]

  so I so I called the neighbor went to [TS]

  straight to voicemail but then [TS]

  miraculously she called me back [TS]

  associations she's just for folks who [TS]

  haven't been following this you're [TS]

  pretty worried about her for awhile you [TS]

  haven't seen her in a while there are [TS]

  people moving in and out there appeared [TS]

  to be some parties a lot of corners [TS]

  looking good is coming in and out of the [TS]

  house it was a bad scene for a while and [TS]

  then it calm down and you know and there [TS]

  was a kind of a new normal which was at [TS]

  least it's quiet on the set and the the [TS]

  regular characters are there but I [TS]

  hadn't seen her in a long time but I [TS]

  figured you know I figured if they had [TS]

  if they buried her in a shallow grave [TS]

  they wouldn't just be coming and going [TS]

  with with the like 7-11 bags and stuff [TS]

  you know they'd be hightailing it or [TS]

  they be stripping the copper pipes or [TS]

  something right [TS]

  anyway I called her she called me back [TS]

  as one o'clock in the morning she's like [TS]

  hey I saw that you called and I was like [TS]

  hi haven't talked in a long time [TS]

  she's like hi nice to hear from you it's [TS]

  1am and in between our two houses there [TS]

  are two things there's a a laurel hedge [TS]

  that's 25 feet tall and there is a 1968 [TS]

  ford van slowly rusting into the ground [TS]

  with four flat tires emulated by gary [TS]

  and in the middle of the van is Gary and [TS]

  gary is and there's an extension cord [TS]

  running from the van to the to the [TS]

  outlet on the front of her house and [TS]

  gary is audible to me quite audible in [TS]

  the van going got tough to get it [TS]

  fuck you to you know just like having a [TS]

  an explosion of Rage 470 Sam that's been [TS]

  lasting for like you know long enough [TS]

  it's been lasting long enough that I did [TS]

  I decided I was gonna like call my [TS]

  neighbor and she's like what's going on [TS]

  i'm like i'm calling about Gary and she [TS]

  was like yeah I mean yeah I couldn't you [TS]

  know I can make it easy for me okay Gary [TS]

  time and even suck air she didn't go [TS]

  yeah Gary no no nothing just like yeah [TS]

  and I think what it is is that there is [TS]

  a place in her house she can go where [TS]

  she doesn't hear Carrie and there and I [TS]

  mean there are places in my house where [TS]

  I can go but what those places are not [TS]

  my living room or bedroom and I'm like [TS]

  Carrie is it Gary I have to be honest [TS]

  with you Gary starting to be a problem [TS]

  for me and she's like yeah and then she [TS]

  does kind of soften and she's like yeah [TS]

  Gary Gary needs to go and I'm like I [TS]

  don't want to be the one to say it but [TS]

  you know Gary I think I really think [TS]

  Gary's got to go and she was like yeah [TS]

  he's really going to be a problem he [TS]

  started to he's cussing me out now and [TS]

  I'm like I know you want to help Gary [TS]

  but I started out is to do you remember [TS]

  right that it started out as her kind of [TS]

  helping rehab him [TS]

  yeah she's talked for a while she was [TS]

  gonna run a little rehab house there and [TS]

  then she got engaged to one of the guys [TS]

  and then the other guy sucking covered [TS]

  in his van for a year at least [TS]

  and so we had a very nice conversation [TS]

  about how Gary needed to hustle up but [TS]

  you know shuffle off to Buffalo and on [TS]

  the one hand i'm thinking you know it's [TS]

  the holidays right around the new year [TS]

  it's a vulnerable time for everybody [TS]

  maybe maybe I should take a softer line [TS]

  on Gary right now and then the other [TS]

  voice in my head was like what [TS]

  well fuck Gary [TS]

  uh everybody hits the bottom and [TS]

  sometimes your bottom is that uh the [TS]

  next door neighbor finally calls and [TS]

  says that you that there that he's going [TS]

  to send a tow truck for your van [TS]

  are you there still no yeah no no I'm [TS]

  listen I'm thinking so is its diff it's [TS]

  so difficult because it's difficult when [TS]

  I have those conversations I'm braced [TS]

  for it to go poorly and you know and I I [TS]

  don't want to be comforted hate being [TS]

  confrontational with people about stuff [TS]

  that is right on the bubble of their [TS]

  business and not my business yeah you [TS]

  have so uncomfortable about I really you [TS]

  know it's whether it's a teenager having [TS]

  a party or somebody parking in the [TS]

  driveway or whatever I just think like [TS]

  how much of this is in my head [TS]

  personally how much this is in my head [TS]

  and I could just be a fucking gentleman [TS]

  and let it go and when you have a nice [TS]

  conversation [TS]

  I don't feel that much better because [TS]

  now I really do feel like a party pooper [TS]

  want to have that conversation one also [TS]

  now we broach the topic so if Gary's [TS]

  still there in a week which he [TS]

  absolutely is going to be then there's a [TS]

  new uncomfortableness which is we talked [TS]

  about Gary getting the Gary getting gone [TS]

  and now there's the there's the there's [TS]

  the implication of a timeline because [TS]

  we've had a conversation about it and [TS]

  she's implicitly agreed that it should [TS]

  happen [TS]

  yeah implicitly that it will happen yeah [TS]

  that it will happen and so then it's [TS]

  like every time I see her now it's like [TS]

  so how's it going with Gary are we where [TS]

  we add on that and that is like not [TS]

  that's not a relationship i want to have [TS]

  with her you know I she she definitely [TS]

  has an uphill climb and I mean for a [TS]

  year [TS]

  I've I haven't said a word about it [TS]

  because it because it does it falls into [TS]

  that category like well it's on her [TS]

  property and it is her business and if [TS]

  gary was her boyfriend and he was in [TS]

  there [TS]

  drunkenly screaming into the phone every [TS]

  night and be like well that's just what [TS]

  happens when you live in a neighborhood [TS]

  right right but gary is it fair to the [TS]

  crucial distinction which is gary is [TS]

  living in the front yard and the front [TS]

  yard is enough of a puppet that it's not [TS]

  it's still on her property but it [TS]

  it is public space in the center and [TS]

  John it is a van [TS]

  it's a van and it's that mean that year [TS]

  is a long time for someone to live in a [TS]

  van it softens front yard and you know [TS]

  that's getting the driveway that's [TS]

  Gary's life choice or whatever but the [TS]

  thing is the van is tucked behind this [TS]

  Laurel head in a way that the cops are [TS]

  not aware it's there nobody's aware it's [TS]

  there I thought about it the other day [TS]

  if the hedge wasn't there and it was [TS]

  just this rusting ass piece of shit man [TS]

  with an extension cord going in one of [TS]

  the windows and a guy in there yelling [TS]

  into his phone [TS]

  like other people would have taken [TS]

  notice but and you know and like health [TS]

  and human services or whatever would [TS]

  have said are you bigger you pissing in [TS]

  a bucket like where how much access does [TS]

  Gary have to the house and have and like [TS]

  that's a crucial especially if your if [TS]

  your chronic alcoholic like sometimes [TS]

  you gotta go to the bathroom [TS]

  I just always think about fires I don't [TS]

  know why as i get older i think about [TS]

  like you know maybe Gary nods off the [TS]

  marlboro red going mmm not so you know [TS]

  next thing you know it's a piece like [TS]

  it's the keys a can of beans and his [TS]

  quarters are just single because my next [TS]

  book my other next-door neighbor Patrick [TS]

  Patrick everybody's feelings Justin [TS]

  Patrick will drop a little science on me [TS]

  every once awhile about Gary's like to [TS]

  hear that guy here that guy out there [TS]

  slamming his van door and stuff in the [TS]

  middle of night and I'm like oh I hear [TS]

  him Patrick go Patrick is is definitely [TS]

  on he he airs on the other side of like [TS]

  what happens on your property is your [TS]

  business [TS]

  Patrick's also the guy that that fired a [TS]

  gun in the air when some teenage kid [TS]

  climbed on the roof to Patrick right [TS]

  talk to the talk to his teenage daughter [TS]

  and so I mean I know Patrick when the [TS]

  chips are down Patrick's capable of like [TS]

  handling a situation if you needed to do [TS]

  of for Gary extraction capture him in [TS]

  his underwear with a gun in the street [TS]

  something something again back and I [TS]

  think I think Patrick's actually you [TS]

  know off the sauce to do so the whole [TS]

  neighborhood's cleaning up but the like [TS]

  carries the last [TS]

  he's the last of the mohicans and uh and [TS]

  I just who i mean i'm going on and that [TS]

  we finally have the conversation but now [TS]

  it's getting now I don't know what to do [TS]

  I don't you know there have been times [TS]

  when I thought that I would just run a [TS]

  hose from Gary's tailpipe right into the [TS]

  back window and then we solve the [TS]

  problem completely but Gary never turns [TS]

  the motor on because the band doesn't [TS]

  run anymore so anyway that's at that and [TS]

  that's not why I'm not sleeping the [TS]

  reason I'm not sleeping is that I set up [TS]

  until five o'clock in the morning [TS]

  looking at ebay on my phone but right [TS]

  but Gary screaming at his ex-wife isn't [TS]

  helping me right and I wonder what the [TS]

  hell she's doing at one o'clock in the [TS]

  morning taking these hour-long phone [TS]

  calls you know what I mean like if if I [TS]

  were her I would have had to hang up the [TS]

  phone after a certain after look like [TS]

  the 40th raged fuck you I'd be like okay [TS]

  Carrie that's the thing about a about [TS]

  eight what I was going to say toxic [TS]

  personality but i'll say let's say an [TS]

  incendiary personality whether that is [TS]

  in real life or on the internet or [TS]

  whatever and I'll speak for myself my [TS]

  reaction is to just not poke at it and i [TS]

  would i would just as soon find some way [TS]

  to just kind of avoid it and that's [TS]

  probably that's kind of what everybody [TS]

  wants to do unless you're somebody who [TS]

  is you know very convert confrontation [TS]

  like if there's if I'm on the train with [TS]

  my kid and somebody's having a meltdown [TS]

  yep which happened I mean you we've [TS]

  we've been on the train where they had [TS]

  to stop it and have the cops pull up [TS]

  because the driver had to call the cops [TS]

  were basically the entire part of the [TS]

  car has emptied out except for you know [TS]

  what one homeless guy like melting down [TS]

  and screaming obscenities and swing [TS]

  things around and so in that case like [TS]

  there's the short certainly there's a [TS]

  part of me that goes like that's a human [TS]

  being is suffering that somebody who [TS]

  like with a little bit of medication and [TS]

  a hot meal might do a little better [TS]

  my inclination is to just get my kid [TS]

  movie other side of the of the training [TS]

  right it's so much easier and i have to [TS]

  say in general I mean you're going to [TS]

  live in a city that is that is a healthy [TS]

  way to be because you can't fix [TS]

  everything right when you [TS]

  take care of yourself you gotta go check [TS]

  your six as you say [TS]

  yep but but you know I don't but there's [TS]

  one guys one guy in our neighborhood not [TS]

  the not the chicken eating rice throwing [TS]

  guy but there's one guy in our [TS]

  neighborhood who like I all I had maybe [TS]

  three years ago I almost came to blows [TS]

  with um I think he's deeply [TS]

  schizophrenic he sleeps in doorways and [TS]

  I and he would just randomly yell things [TS]

  at people and in one particular occasion [TS]

  I have a pretty thick skin for city [TS]

  stuff but he got close enough and loud [TS]

  enough when i was with my kid one time [TS]

  that I kind of stepped him a little bit [TS]

  which as you can imagine this unusual [TS]

  for me [TS]

  yeah I felt like it was a situation [TS]

  where I had to stick out my chest a [TS]

  little bit and get past the fog with [TS]

  this guy because it felt like it was [TS]

  kind of like an imminent thing [TS]

  yeah and after that happened I got [TS]

  really i would avoid him i would I did [TS]

  not like the guy [TS]

  yeah because he had you know I felt [TS]

  menaced by the guy you know of course [TS]

  there's a small part of me that felt bad [TS]

  for him if anything happened like with a [TS]

  year or so later something happened [TS]

  maybe he got picked up and put somewhere [TS]

  for a while but he got what I'm guessing [TS]

  is medicated right and got healthy and [TS]

  he was he would still be sitting in [TS]

  front of the walgreens with his hand out [TS]

  and I mean this guy Demi that we're [TS]

  talking like like just like you know [TS]

  same clothes for four months covered in [TS]

  front of stuff and just filthy and and [TS]

  the thing was though and suddenly I [TS]

  don't say his name but but eventually he [TS]

  started saying like hey any chance you [TS]

  could help me out today and I was like [TS]

  whoa hello [TS]

  he's and I was like oh sorry man not [TS]

  today which is of course what you say [TS]

  but I real and i would hear him having [TS]

  conversations with people and he sounded [TS]

  like a little bit of a crank but he [TS]

  wasn't dangerous anymore and yeah I [TS]

  don't know I felt like shit about it I [TS]

  felt terrible about it because i can't [TS]

  really do that much to help this guy but [TS]

  he is my official adoptive look homeless [TS]

  guy wherever I live this is my this is [TS]

  my policy on giving money that homeless [TS]

  people i pick exactly one person every [TS]

  time I see them I give them five dollars [TS]

  and you show you chose this going to be [TS]

  your have adopted for for like maybe a [TS]

  year and a half now [TS]

  mhm and if I got a little cash or I feel [TS]

  like you know something to say I'm done [TS]

  in awhile just say hey Larry unit and [TS]

  take it easy man [TS]

  and you know but like I I the whole in [TS]

  every part of that makes me feel like [TS]

  shit i feel like shit that I got [TS]

  emotional with him I feel terrible that [TS]

  he is a schizophrenic man living on the [TS]

  streets and you know where I live [TS]

  wearing them [TS]

  we're really in them in the outside [TS]

  lands as they say it's nothing like what [TS]

  you get if you live in the castro or [TS]

  something but I don't know the whole [TS]

  thing makes me feel terrible and of [TS]

  course then it just makes me more filled [TS]

  with self-doubt in the same way that I [TS]

  would be reluctant to call out Jerry you [TS]

  know what I mean it's like there's a [TS]

  part of me that's like me and [TS]

  everybody's fucked up and there hasn't [TS]

  been a fire so I don't wanna be a dick [TS]

  yeah right and and this is the you know [TS]

  the the famous old adage and I don't [TS]

  know whether it was Churchill or Mark [TS]

  Twain or dingus khan or Descartes who [TS]

  said hard heart of the conservative and [TS]

  liberal yeah right yeah right here [TS]

  tonight is not a liberal by the time [TS]

  he's a young man [TS]

  yeah hard-hearted anyone is not a [TS]

  conservative by the time their forties [TS]

  soft-headed yeah was that Benjamin [TS]

  Disraeli who was that I've heard [TS]

  attributed to Churchill yeah it's really [TS]

  more talking [TS]

  it's I think it's probably it's probably [TS]

  Mark Twain talking the Churchill for [TS]

  Remy um but it's one of those it's one [TS]

  of those problems of like when you're a [TS]

  young person it is it's a your [TS]

  sympathies abound and you and you want [TS]

  to live in a world where none of those [TS]

  things you know it's it's not possible [TS]

  for people to fall through the cracks [TS]

  like that you feel it very invested in [TS]

  the social compact why what you know [TS]

  they're there [TS]

  why is this man left to what you know [TS]

  why can't he be helped and then as you [TS]

  get older and older like get the hell [TS]

  off my lawn [TS]

  Rand and you start to feel even mean [TS]

  certainly I have started to feel as [TS]

  someone who has a young person actually [TS]

  slept on park benches quite a bit [TS]

  increasingly as time goes on I feel like [TS]

  some of these problems are intractable [TS]

  mental health problems social the the [TS]

  social compact is not airtight and a lot [TS]

  of these problems you know do not have [TS]

  simple solutions i mean my mom spent [TS]

  years walking around town adopting [TS]

  homeless people to the to the point that [TS]

  she would bring them home with her and [TS]

  reestablish contact with their families [TS]

  and and you know go through these [TS]

  elaborate processes get them on their [TS]

  medication find them work all these [TS]

  things and then six months and the [TS]

  transformation was incredible and you [TS]

  have these you have these moments with [TS]

  her we're just like you are [TS]

  irri absolute angel and look what's [TS]

  happened that this guy used to be a [TS]

  sitting in front of the supermarket like [TS]

  with drool down his face and now he's [TS]

  like wearing a tie he's going to work [TS]

  he's lucid and ended up and and turns [TS]

  out an amazing guy and then nine months [TS]

  later he decided on his own volition to [TS]

  stop taking his medication and and then [TS]

  he lose his job and then a few months [TS]

  later he's living under the freeway [TS]

  again and you get that other sense of [TS]

  frustration of like wow that was a that [TS]

  was a year it was not just a year's work [TS]

  sort of up to end up right back where we [TS]

  started but also the emotional journey [TS]

  of like yeah [TS]

  wow I don't anybody know my mom would [TS]

  come out of those experiences feeling [TS]

  like I don't anymore feel like I can i I [TS]

  don't know how to help [TS]

  it's not that I don't feel like I can [TS]

  help but like giving the guy five [TS]

  dollars for a bottle of wine is one form [TS]

  of it trying to get him in touch with [TS]

  his family back in Ohio is another form [TS]

  of it and and ultimately the thing that [TS]

  most people do which is sorry man [TS]

  or worse is another form of it and and I [TS]

  don't know the solution isn't easy and [TS]

  in particular with my neighbors you know [TS]

  my neighborhood is what we would have in [TS]

  the past referred to as a respectable [TS]

  lower mid [TS]

  class neighborhood everybody there is [TS]

  itself there's a working-class diverse [TS]

  working-class neighborhood the first [TS]

  working-class neighborhood where where [TS]

  people are you know they don't have a [TS]

  disposable income to really care for [TS]

  their yards or houses in a in a in a way [TS]

  that he would drive through and say like [TS]

  wow these this neighborhoods got curb [TS]

  appeal but people are minding their own [TS]

  business and they're making their [TS]

  payments and they are you know they are [TS]

  solid and fair number of people who own [TS]

  their house [TS]

  I think everybody in the neighborhood [TS]

  does with the you know with the with the [TS]

  exception of those houses where there [TS]

  are a lot of people living sexy so [TS]

  unusual today [TS]

  well and that's one of the differences [TS]

  of a of of Seattle and Portland compared [TS]

  to a lot of American cities which is [TS]

  that there aren't really there are there [TS]

  aren't really ghettos here and there [TS]

  single-family homes and there are [TS]

  neighborhoods that are rich in [TS]

  neighborhoods that are poor and there [TS]

  are some housing projects but even those [TS]

  housing projects are built to look and [TS]

  emulate a single-family home [TS]

  neighborhoods winding streets and [TS]

  basketball hoops at that at the [TS]

  cul-de-sac and San Francisco the only [TS]

  way you can tell sometimes is very large [TS]

  signs and very bright lights [TS]

  that's right the the arc lights used to [TS]

  be the way you could tell now in seattle [TS]

  has done away with that like a [TS]

  concentration camp lighting and even the [TS]

  even the poorest neighborhoods in the [TS]

  city kind of just have have have a [TS]

  neighborhood five but but you know the [TS]

  conflict between me and Gary for [TS]

  instance or you know or my interest in [TS]

  the house across the street is also tied [TS]

  up in a lot of class issues where I [TS]

  totally super concerned about being the [TS]

  you know about being someone who's moved [TS]

  into the neighborhood of things I've [TS]

  lived in that house longer than they've [TS]

  lived in that house right i mean it's [TS]

  not like I moved into their neighborhood [TS]

  but but the question of like a ok [TS]

  like here there's gotta be something [TS]

  there's got to be some level of decorum [TS]

  here that doesn't include for instance [TS]

  that party where people were just [TS]

  ransacking the house but at the same [TS]

  time it's like I don't know maybe I've [TS]

  been to a lot of parties where would [TS]

  have looked to an outsider like like we [TS]

  were just stripping the house and it [TS]

  wasn't that at all and you know and and [TS]

  I I no longer have the another thing you [TS]

  another mistake you can make in in youth [TS]

  is thinking that because you slept on [TS]

  some park benches for for a few nights [TS]

  that you have real insight into what it [TS]

  is to be poor and um and I no longer [TS]

  make that mistake of of assuming that [TS]

  like I map you know that with it i'm [TS]

  inside their heads and that we all share [TS]

  like a common life experience right but [TS]

  I'm you know I mean what I'm a homeowner [TS]

  and and and i also feel a little bit of [TS]

  that hit that creeping republicanism of [TS]

  like I'm a homeowner I mean just to say [TS]

  those words in respect to what your [TS]

  neighbors are doing across the street [TS]

  bike as a homeowner I feel like we need [TS]

  to we need to start up having like a [TS]

  homeowner meanings where we we go around [TS]

  go around the room and say like okay [TS]

  who's got a guy living in a van in his [TS]

  front yard anybody right how many people [TS]

  let's see a show of hands but you know [TS]

  there is that the phrase that went [TS]

  around a lot and then one of the many [TS]

  many malcolm gladwell isms that has been [TS]

  kind of or partly or mostly disproven [TS]

  broken windows syndrome [TS]

  yeah you know well i mean the thing is i [TS]

  understand that the part that was [TS]

  disproven about broken windows syndrome [TS]

  was not the part that if there's a few [TS]

  broken windows you get more broken [TS]

  windows the part that seems a little [TS]

  disproven is that fixing those windows [TS]

  does make a substantial difference right [TS]

  but I i mean i'll just say this is [TS]

  totally anecdotal but i think the first [TS]

  part is still very true [TS]

  yeah just like what you put up with [TS]

  becomes ok [TS]

  and then once that's ok then more stuff [TS]

  that's not so great because ok as well [TS]

  yes it is new and look no further than [TS]

  the place where you walk in and put your [TS]

  mail down you come in you put your mail [TS]

  down that used to be a working surface [TS]

  and now it's covered with male like that [TS]

  takes a week and i think it's i think [TS]

  it's true i mean like you know do you [TS]

  want to be in the neighborhood where [TS]

  it's ok for somebody just have a van in [TS]

  the yard and somebody's a little [TS]

  unstable living in it for a year [TS]

  yeah yeah my dad called that that table [TS]

  the magic table because if you put [TS]

  something down on the top of it within a [TS]

  couple of weeks it would be at the [TS]

  bottom of the pile and that seemed to [TS]

  magic to him and then his solution was [TS]

  at a certain point when it because when [TS]

  it was teetering the pile was teetering [TS]

  he would sweep it all into a cardboard [TS]

  box put the cardboard box at the bottom [TS]

  of a closet and then wait and if that's [TS]

  the way you got it yeah then wait 30 [TS]

  years and died haha that's hot i still [TS]

  do that idea that with our microwave we [TS]

  open the door the microwave and a [TS]

  leather man and a bill fall off and it's [TS]

  like that's it and I guess I sweep [TS]

  everything into a box and put it in the [TS]

  closet [TS]

  this is my legacy that the stuff with [TS]

  internet this is not good for our Happy [TS]

  New Year episode but you know the stuff [TS]

  about dealing with folks who have like [TS]

  serious you know mental and chemical [TS]

  stuff you know you hear these stories [TS]

  about we need to talk about the family [TS]

  and getting in touch with the family and [TS]

  there are a lot of families who quietly [TS]

  have somebody in their family who is [TS]

  kind of in and out of the system on and [TS]

  off of the streets for decades [TS]

  I mean you don't you don't have to poke [TS]

  around very far to find somebody who has [TS]

  a brother or maybe has a mother for that [TS]

  matter who is just kind of there are [TS]

  definitely part of the family tree but [TS]

  there's no amount of quote-unquote [TS]

  helping them that anybody can can do [TS]

  that will actually fix the problem and [TS]

  they're just in and out of the system [TS]

  all the time and those people are happy [TS]

  people but they there's a certain kind [TS]

  of resolution [TS]

  it's like when the wire I know when [TS]

  bubbles goes to his sister's house is [TS]

  like I cleaned up like here's a key and [TS]

  go in the basement I don't ever want to [TS]

  see you like that's right you fuck me [TS]

  enough times exactly i'm never going to [TS]

  believe you get eventually eventually [TS]

  the time comes off and your back under [TS]

  the bridge it's like it [TS]

  just it's so much more complicated than [TS]

  anybody if you're not around it all the [TS]

  time [TS]

  IES certainly i'm not an expert on it [TS]

  but I do know that something like [TS]

  homelessness is way more it is at some [TS]

  level very much an economic issue but [TS]

  there's a lot more to it than that it [TS]

  might be economics but you know you've [TS]

  been to the haight there's no there's a [TS]

  lot of people living on the street in [TS]

  the hate or like the Panhandle along [TS]

  pretty sure we'll probably be in college [TS]

  in the next five years they've been [TS]

  chosen to be like a skate rat they've [TS]

  joined the proletariat and they who [TS]

  knows they might come out of it a lot of [TS]

  people if it is purely economical they [TS]

  do not want to go to a shelter that's [TS]

  where you get stabbed [TS]

  yeah it's you know anyway i mean the the [TS]

  confusing thing about it is that a on a [TS]

  one-on-one level we've all had [TS]

  experiences where you where you say like [TS]

  oh this and it isn't just mental illness [TS]

  homelessness drug abuse but situations [TS]

  where you go [TS]

  this is an interactive well intractable [TS]

  track to political intractable Thank You [TS]

  intractable problem i've tried you know [TS]

  like my kid is a drug addict I've tried [TS]

  this have tried that I've tried I've [TS]

  tried tough love I've tried love love [TS]

  I've tried help i've tried external [TS]

  training a certain tried ignoring it [TS]

  yeah I've tried all the fins and each of [TS]

  us has had experiences and all families [TS]

  and all individual people have had [TS]

  experiences and and even just with [TS]

  people where like I've been trying to [TS]

  explain to them for five years that [TS]

  living paycheck to paycheck is is like a [TS]

  risky proposition and that they should [TS]

  put 50 bucks in the bank every time they [TS]

  get a paycheck and if they did that for [TS]

  a year then they have a little bit of [TS]

  money and they wouldn't feel so insecure [TS]

  and he try and explain that to somebody [TS]

  for 3 years 5 years and you realize like [TS]

  oh nothing i'm doing here can help this [TS]

  person does not want to know this they [TS]

  don't want to hear it and they keep [TS]

  spending every paycheck they get and [TS]

  then they keep having financial crises [TS]

  and they keep acting like it's a big [TS]

  mystery and that and that there's [TS]

  something unfair about [TS]

  you know that like why does everybody [TS]

  else get to like go on vacation it's [TS]

  like well as some people save their [TS]

  money and you don't and but the the [TS]

  problem is we understand those on [TS]

  personal on a personal level but [TS]

  whenever we start talking as a society [TS]

  in a culture about those problems taken [TS]

  to a larger scale than all of a sudden [TS]

  it becomes much harder to say some [TS]

  problems are unsolvable because we have [TS]

  such faith in ourselves and in [TS]

  technology and in our and in our thought [TS]

  technologies we have such faith [TS]

  particularly in the nineteenth and [TS]

  twentieth centuries that we can solve [TS]

  all problems and it's just a matter of [TS]

  applying the Right theory and the right [TS]

  engine and and things become politicized [TS]

  so then it its it's not just that that [TS]

  these people that there's a problem with [TS]

  drug abuse but it's a problem of with [TS]

  drug abuse and the other political party [TS]

  has the wrong attitude about it and then [TS]

  it's a battle and the implication is if [TS]

  the other if the other side of the coin [TS]

  here wasn't resisting the reforms that [TS]

  we have in mind right we would have [TS]

  solved this problem a long time ago and [TS]

  it's like well every time some a new [TS]

  Congress gets elected we apply all the [TS]

  the new reforms of that the last party [TS]

  was standing in the in the way of and [TS]

  and the problem never get solved [TS]

  it's very difficult as a society to say [TS]

  well all we can do is manage this [TS]

  problem and we're never not and not [TS]

  everyone is always and not everyone can [TS]

  be healthy and not everyone can be not [TS]

  every problem can get solved and so what [TS]

  what's the best management of it and [TS]

  Seattle just started doing a thing a [TS]

  couple of years ago where they built a [TS]

  they built the sort of a hotel for [TS]

  chronic alcoholics where they gave him [TS]

  an allotment of booze every day I've [TS]

  heard about this [TS]

  I've heard about these different [TS]

  programs of like it actually costs less [TS]

  money in the long run to set somebody up [TS]

  somewhere to put them into this [TS]

  system yeah right i mean they're they're [TS]

  just like these are the people bet that [TS]

  the three times a month are getting lift [TS]

  at you know transported to the emergency [TS]

  room in an ambulance and every one of [TS]

  those times across eight thousand [TS]

  dollars and they spend the night in the [TS]

  hospital and that cost eight thousand [TS]

  dollars and we could put him in a hotel [TS]

  and give them a a leader of alcohol a [TS]

  day and that would just cost us two [TS]

  thousand dollars a month and they would [TS]

  be happy and that company cold and [TS]

  started Hamsterdam but that's exactly [TS]

  that's right and there you know and the [TS]

  problem is like the activists classes [TS]

  don't know what to do with that [TS]

  information because on the one hand it's [TS]

  much more humane but on the other hand [TS]

  it seems again like its management [TS]

  no one is suggesting that these people [TS]

  are going to get better right [TS]

  it's just like here's your leader of [TS]

  booze and the key to your room and try [TS]

  not to like try not to bleed on the [TS]

  toilet seat in the morning and it's [TS]

  there's nothing pretty about it but but [TS]

  human beings are our I don't know this [TS]

  is that this is one of the major themes [TS]

  above my life is like yeah how far from [TS]

  animals are we really yeah i mean i-i [TS]

  just have a similar maybe slightly [TS]

  different my if there's anything that I [TS]

  feel like has been both super useful and [TS]

  extremely vexing in my journey to try to [TS]

  figure out whatever you wanna call it [TS]

  productivity creativity just problem [TS]

  solving and there's a lot of things I [TS]

  think we mentioned i mention this to a [TS]

  few weeks going in an episode but you [TS]

  know it's I feel like any solution [TS]

  that's uncomplicated is probably not [TS]

  true and probably not real it's like if [TS]

  you haven't found something complicated [TS]

  yet you are near the truth if you if it [TS]

  seems if it seems simple you're not done [TS]

  looking you have already on happily ever [TS]

  after and so you're or you are or you [TS]

  are meticulously avoiding looking at the [TS]

  things you don't want to look at a [TS]

  hundred percent and that's why I mean [TS]

  now this might be a little bit too neat [TS]

  i might be guilty of my own thing here [TS]

  but you know it'sit's you have to [TS]

  understand [TS]

  and that everything in life is an [TS]

  engineering problem there's probably at [TS]

  least three different vectors to [TS]

  everything and anytime you try to solve [TS]

  one problem one way the one of the first [TS]

  questions to ask yourself especially if [TS]

  you're a lawmaker oars or you know a [TS]

  public person is how much am i doing [TS]

  about this just change the way that it [TS]

  looks [TS]

  yeah because if you want to just change [TS]

  the way something looks there's a [TS]

  thousand different angles you can take [TS]

  you can cook the books you can put [TS]

  people in and moving over to Hamsterdam [TS]

  likes all kinds of ways that you can [TS]

  change the appearance of something it's [TS]

  just that once you try to actually [TS]

  change anything you realize you're [TS]

  actually changing or another way to put [TS]

  it rather than changing is your uh [TS]

  pending you are chaotic sizing probably [TS]

  five or six different things unintended [TS]

  consequences and like these [TS]

  what is it you really want to change so [TS]

  the phrase i always use in this [TS]

  productivity stuff is ask yourself if [TS]

  you're solving the right problem at the [TS]

  right level for the right reasons as if [TS]

  you don't like those up all you're gonna [TS]

  do is it's all optics it's all just [TS]

  changing how it looks and so the thing [TS]

  is if you're mostly sad because you see [TS]

  homeless people on the street your [TS]

  solution one solution might be to give [TS]

  him five dollars for wine another [TS]

  solution might be to put them all into [TS]

  some kind of a camp you know but like [TS]

  are you really trying to solve and you [TS]

  can't ever solve the total problem of [TS]

  class status and economics in America so [TS]

  at what level will you try to solve that [TS]

  yeah and then you have to if you scope [TS]

  that correctly you can have successes [TS]

  but they won't be permanent successes [TS]

  they won't be easy successes and they [TS]

  won't be complete successes and that's [TS]

  what everybody thinks they want they [TS]

  think if we can't do this completely [TS]

  perfectly it's not worth doing and so [TS]

  anyway that's a little bit better and [TS]

  that is computed that that that's what [TS]

  that is absolutely another another angle [TS]

  to it which is that no one wants no one [TS]

  no one is satisfied with that with a [TS]

  half victory right because because so [TS]

  much of the so much of these questions [TS]

  is what energizes the whole political [TS]

  machine in America like if if if a [TS]

  problem if we call a problem solved [TS]

  uh then the the fundraising engine dries [TS]

  up and the and the the outrage engine [TS]

  drives up [TS]

  and so so they're the these these ideas [TS]

  these big ideas and people's lives [TS]

  really ultimately our are pitted against [TS]

  one another in order to keep this big [TS]

  machine of the of the chattering classes [TS]

  and the legislative classes it employed [TS]

  and it what amazes me about the Congress [TS]

  is that they find a way to every year up [TS]

  make a bunch of new laws and hits like [TS]

  there are a lot of laws already [TS]

  the question is so infrequently that we [TS]

  need a new law and that standard [TS]

  applying the standard of like it making [TS]

  a new law should be a last resort and so [TS]

  there's a lot of work that the Congress [TS]

  can do the the big glamorous work that [TS]

  they do is make a new law right and we [TS]

  just keep making new laws and our the [TS]

  old laws are like all these skin flakes [TS]

  carpeting the bed where the Congress [TS]

  lays where they don't they don't work [TS]

  anymore we don't look at the fact that [TS]

  it's that this this legacy of crafty [TS]

  laws go whether remember there were [TS]

  people 100 or 50 or 25 years ago had the [TS]

  same right idea let's go make a law [TS]

  that's right exactly and and and we [TS]

  don't as a we're not very reflective as [TS]

  a people we don't look back at our at [TS]

  our legacy at our recent history even [TS]

  and say were these attempts like let me [TS]

  use the power of metaphor for these [TS]

  attempts that we made 25 years ago 50 [TS]

  years ago were they successful and in [TS]

  what ways were they successful but also [TS]

  in what ways where they were they [TS]

  failures utter failures and why would we [TS]

  go down that road again a hundred times [TS]

  a thousand times and it's that we are [TS]

  boy we are imperfect and and unlikable [TS]

  little fucking pig bugs [TS]

  god dammit season games i'm looking out [TS]

  the window right now at the at the [TS]

  freeway on-ramp but I'm just like [TS]

  goddamn you pigs and you know the other [TS]

  part of this that man it's just it's so [TS]

  beyond obvious but man that's the stuff [TS]

  we always miss is like you know what [TS]

  vast percentage of the time do we think [TS]

  laws need to be made because other [TS]

  people need to be stopped from doing [TS]

  something there's nobody there are very [TS]

  very few people out there who are saying [TS]

  that they need a lot past about them [TS]

  there are very few people who say you [TS]

  know what I'm pretty irresponsible in [TS]

  this one area so I should have some kind [TS]

  of threat of criminal or civil law [TS]

  introduced so that I'll become a better [TS]

  person I'd always gets me [TS]

  yeah but we're always were always [TS]

  looking for all these other people who [TS]

  have caused our problems and then we [TS]

  want to live past about them and then [TS]

  there's this entire inefficient arm [TS]

  inefficient arms inefficient limbs of [TS]

  government are expected to sweep out and [TS]

  do that in a way that's going to be fair [TS]

  yeah fucking people oh my god there they [TS]

  are they're all out there they're [TS]

  wandering around over there stopping at [TS]

  stop lights when the light turns green [TS]

  and they go they take the whole width of [TS]

  the walkway just so and you know in a [TS]

  pole at the at the level of being a [TS]

  parent and watching watching a child [TS]

  kind of navigate the the very first sort [TS]

  of human first real human interaction [TS]

  when they're little babies right there [TS]

  just sort of like how there they are [TS]

  look at him go like throw some food in [TS]

  their crate and put a blanket over it [TS]

  and and then we'll see him in the [TS]

  morning but you know when when uh when [TS]

  my daughter has she started now to have [TS]

  interactions at school that I recognized [TS]

  as human interactions and ones that like [TS]

  oh this is her first encounter with this [TS]

  and assigned a certain kind of [TS]

  interaction that she'll have thousands [TS]

  of times that are literally thousands of [TS]

  times and this is essentially it's the [TS]

  first one and she looks mean she goes [TS]

  what's going on here and I think I wish [TS]

  I could tell you because everybody i [TS]

  know myself included once to kneel down [TS]

  and say listen here's what's going on [TS]

  and here's how you deal with it [TS]

  but the reality is i am still in this [TS]

  situation that you're in and I still [TS]

  don't know how to deal with it [TS]

  alright yeah and there's no there's no [TS]

  easy way for me to say this and there's [TS]

  certainly no way for me to say this that [TS]

  it will not be just a dumb cliché but [TS]

  like there's just so much stuff in life [TS]

  that is simply not fair [TS]

  yeah probably every little kid has an [TS]

  innate sense of justice [TS]

  that's what that's what they call the [TS]

  goat nature's president haha every child [TS]

  every child every child has an innate [TS]

  sense that of fairness that mostly leans [TS]

  toward them so it's one of the most [TS]

  powerful instincts that they have is [TS]

  itself a reservation instinct and it's a [TS]

  fairness to them instinct [TS]

  there's there's there's not there's they [TS]

  haven't evolved enough and very few of [TS]

  us have evolved enough to go well let's [TS]

  make sure everybody got something here [TS]

  it was definitely a sense of like that [TS]

  person that they got a balloon they got [TS]

  a balloon they got a balloon [TS]

  I better have a balloon coming yeah you [TS]

  know what we got ice cream like I should [TS]

  get ice cream or just that the yeah i [TS]

  mean one of the things that were [TS]

  experiencing is like well other kids [TS]

  throw tantrums in front of their parents [TS]

  and say no and and push their hand in [TS]

  their parents face and why shouldn't I [TS]

  don't have cancer [TS]

  a hundred percent and I've I've I've got [TS]

  a drumbeat that is such fucking weak [TS]

  sauce but it's the only thing I can [TS]

  always say which is you know like for [TS]

  example we're still standing at the [TS]

  crosswalk and as happens people start [TS]

  walking before the signal has changed me [TS]

  and she starts walking I say no we we [TS]

  walk when it's safe for us to walk do [TS]

  not rely on what other people do or [TS]

  don't do to help you decide what's right [TS]

  and safe so you know we're going to do [TS]

  this in our own way because that's [TS]

  that's who we are [TS]

  there are people that we are is that we [TS]

  do the right thing we don't do this [TS]

  thing because there's a lot we don't do [TS]

  this thing because we know that [TS]

  certainly could be part of it but we do [TS]

  this because this is who we are and I [TS]

  don't and I feel like such a such an [TS]

  idiot like such a such a 00 limp-wristed [TS]

  liberal when I say that but I i hope [TS]

  that that becomes true in the same way [TS]

  that I hope it's true when I say it to [TS]

  my face [TS]

  self to get my I say to myself for that [TS]

  too [TS]

  we could cross you can't cross 50 times [TS]

  and we would go against the light and we [TS]

  probably be fine but that's not who we [TS]

  are going to be it's the core of [TS]

  civilization it i mean that internal [TS]

  governing is the basis of the idea that [TS]

  we should we should all be philosopher [TS]

  Kings that we should live in no I mean [TS]

  the whole premise plus writings fake it [TS]

  till you make it with the whole premise [TS]

  of a civil society is that we each are [TS]

  internally governed and so don't need I [TS]

  don't need restrictive laws i mean both [TS]

  there are versions of that on both sides [TS]

  of the political spectrum which which [TS]

  presumes the best about people and it [TS]

  used to be that there was a lot more [TS]

  energy devoted to that idea in our [TS]

  culture where we where we said to [TS]

  ourselves and to one another like this [TS]

  is not what we do it's not we're not [TS]

  we're not not committing a crime because [TS]

  we're afraid of getting caught or [TS]

  because there's a video camera watching [TS]

  us we're not committing a crime because [TS]

  we do we do not commit crimes right and [TS]

  this is the problem with the the whole [TS]

  of the the whole torture thing the whole [TS]

  bush-cheney doctrine in American [TS]

  politics is that we squandered we [TS]

  squandered that it on a global political [TS]

  level the title of our good deeds and a [TS]

  measure of moral authority just was just [TS]

  50 years that just went out the 60 just [TS]

  mount the window just smoked it [TS]

  everytime everytime we we built a well [TS]

  or rebuild something we blew up like [TS]

  that all went away when people saw how [TS]

  foolish it we were yeah and and that is [TS]

  that's true on a micro level 2 and all [TS]

  around us every day you know this is why [TS]

  this is why we're always harping on this [TS]

  stuff of like the little the little shit [TS]

  like don't take your shoes off on a [TS]

  airplane don't wear your fedora into a [TS]

  restaurant don't stand there with your [TS]

  earphones in and it you know and and [TS]

  piss on my shoes or whatever and it's [TS]

  not because [TS]

  there but it's not because it's illegal [TS]

  right i mean all the people that are [TS]

  like why shouldn't i wear my pajamas on [TS]

  an airplane it's like I mean it's not [TS]

  illegal is true and like that and that's [TS]

  basically like they're starting point [TS]

  like it's not illegal it's a free [TS]

  country and it's like right but like if [TS]

  you don't maintain standards and i would [TS]

  suggest high standards personally then [TS]

  you can key then you're living in a [TS]

  world where if it's not illegal it's [TS]

  going to get done and how would you like [TS]

  it if your neighbors felt that way to [TS]

  you know how would you like it if the [TS]

  people that you're encountering were [TS]

  also just making decisions based on what [TS]

  was legal or not I mean it's your living [TS]

  in your living in chaos and we are [TS]

  descending culturally we really are [TS]

  there there is there is an a we have [TS]

  lost a lot and we've gained a lot up in [TS]

  the last lesson we're losing a lot of I [TS]

  feel this personally as I have to go and [TS]

  be around other people less as a matter [TS]

  of course I noticed in myself as I have [TS]

  to remember to try and do the right [TS]

  thing but you know what level do you [TS]

  want to do you want to attack it out but [TS]

  I think I feel like as a culture just [TS]

  observing people are either becoming [TS]

  less mindful about how to act and how [TS]

  did how to be jostled by other people [TS]

  and be okay how to like just deal with [TS]

  even that whether it's like getting on [TS]

  and off at the train knowing how to wait [TS]

  in line at the store like everybody's so [TS]

  fucking mad all the time [TS]

  yeah and I'm so this is the self [TS]

  contradictory because we are the authors [TS]

  of keep moving and get out of the way to [TS]

  keep moving it out of the way is at the [TS]

  heart of it like that's the most basic [TS]

  like what what greater kindness in the [TS]

  world could there be [TS]

  that's absolutely right that then to get [TS]

  keep moving and get out of the way we [TS]

  really know 100 off don't make huff and [TS]

  puff noises in line don't do that [TS]

  slower traffic moves right not because [TS]

  there's a sign but because not customer [TS]

  mean not because we're mean but because [TS]

  what that what that suggests what that [TS]

  implies is that you are looking in your [TS]

  mirrors conscious that there are other [TS]

  people on the road [TS]

  and you are trying to get out of the way [TS]

  of somebody who's got a different who's [TS]

  got a different tempo and that is [TS]

  courtesy right that's I mean this is the [TS]

  thing about tipping your hat right of [TS]

  what when we talked about that several [TS]

  episodes ago i was reminded about the [TS]

  power of tipping your hat that I had [TS]

  kind of it in the in the the daily grind [TS]

  of the city had had neglected to tip my [TS]

  hat all the time right I had I had [TS]

  resorted to tipping my hat just when I [TS]

  was opening opening the door for [TS]

  somebody in a hotel but for the most [TS]

  part walking around with my hat on my [TS]

  head [TS]

  passing people in the street even [TS]

  looking at them in nodding I was leaving [TS]

  aside that little gesture the fingers to [TS]

  the brim of the Hat and a little like [TS]

  right tada [TS]

  and so we talked about it on the show [TS]

  and I went out into the world and [TS]

  started tipping my hat to people and [TS]

  it's amazing how much better it makes me [TS]

  feel and I say it's nice for everybody [TS]

  and you get the smiles from people you [TS]

  get like the the ipass the guy was like [TS]

  two o'clock in the morning i'm walking [TS]

  on a on a deserted Street and it's one [TS]

  of those streets that's like you're [TS]

  walking along you're in the neighborhood [TS]

  and then all of a sudden there's trees [TS]

  all around and then all of a sudden the [TS]

  trees have kind of grown over the street [TS]

  and you are and you can't see any lights [TS]

  and you're like where the hell what [TS]

  neighborhood my end I would thought I [TS]

  was in the city and now I'm like I'm in [TS]

  a like a scary book and here comes a guy [TS]

  down the sidewalk with his hoodie all [TS]

  the way over shrouding his eyes and he [TS]

  and I are going to meet we're gonna [TS]

  cross paths at the most brambly spooky [TS]

  little part of this spooky little a 200 [TS]

  yards and he's got his hands jammed into [TS]

  his pockets and you can see from his [TS]

  body language that like she is these [TS]

  toughening up for this encounter he's [TS]

  taller than I am and he's a black guy [TS]

  and he's like I can see him getting [TS]

  ready for this [TS]

  like [TS]

  pass that we're gonna have to make and i [TS]

  feel myself getting ready like how's [TS]

  this gonna go what are we going to do as [TS]

  we pass in this shadowy little spot and [TS]

  as we get closer so that was somewhere [TS]

  within i contacted each other he makes [TS]

  the choice to look at me and he could [TS]

  have made the choice to not look at me [TS]

  and that would have set a certain tone [TS]

  but he makes the choice to experiment [TS]

  you know he just sends his eye beams out [TS]

  from under from under his hood like [TS]

  looks at me and I tip my hat to him and [TS]

  we both like he stands up a little [TS]

  straighter big smile across his face I [TS]

  stand up a little straighter big smile [TS]

  across my face and he goes hello and i [TS]

  say good evening and we're mirror and [TS]

  I'm for like Adam renfaire you know all [TS]

  of a sudden you're both the monopoly man [TS]

  yeah well they were both balls are like [TS]

  hello good evening good sir [TS]

  and I'm like and and he you know he goes [TS]

  on with his day I go on with my day and [TS]

  both of us had what could have been [TS]

  there there were two or twenty different [TS]

  levels that that could have gone and 18 [TS]

  of them were that we just pass in the [TS]

  night and have and carry away from that [TS]

  encounter some it would have reinforced [TS]

  some pre belief about how things are [TS]

  right now you both prepped [TS]

  yeah we want the rapacity rather side oh [TS]

  okay that guy right i mean good thing [TS]

  did you know like I'm thinking a good [TS]

  thing in the UH mug me and he's thinking [TS]

  like a good thing you didn't call the [TS]

  cops and make shot me and all those [TS]

  narratives pre-existing sort of bullshit [TS]

  narratives we could have reinforced in [TS]

  that moment and instead we both work [TS]

  clowns like goofy dorks which is what we [TS]

  all want to be right [TS]

  hello and there's the thing is nobody is [TS]

  watching right so we can be a little [TS]

  dorky there wasn't a third party across [TS]

  the street smoke a cigarette who was [TS]

  gonna shout out like how you guys are [TS]

  dorks right and so we got it we got a [TS]

  moment and it's all in that like I mean [TS]

  I honestly him look [TS]

  at me was was brave and then that little [TS]

  tip of the cap was waiting it was a [TS]

  gesture i had in my arsenal of [TS]

  civilization which is like I receive [TS]

  your eye that you're you know you're [TS]

  brave gesture of looking and I and I i [TS]

  honored sir with a little bit of [TS]

  steampunk airship and he thought to [TS]

  himself John Roderick seems so much [TS]

  nicer than I would have expected haha [TS]

  he's like women if it isn't that the guy [TS]

  on the music council this episode of [TS]

  rock on the line is sponsored by [TS]

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  counselor counselor not so good to see [TS]

  it I see it but the thing about being in [TS]

  school that I with little kids that I [TS]

  realizes is it's it's a it's a it [TS]

  reinforces the other thing which is that [TS]

  we cannot perfectly understand ourselves [TS]

  and the whole premise that's been in [TS]

  place ever since I was a kid in our [TS]

  culture that the banner is still flown [TS]

  by so many people that we are completely [TS]

  makeable by culture [TS]

  and that weekend that all of these [TS]

  things about our house it's like a [TS]

  recipe if you get the ingredients right [TS]

  and bake it just the right amount of [TS]

  time you become a good cultured person [TS]

  yeah.well or or in particular just like [TS]

  the differences between the genders it's [TS]

  a it's a it's another one of these kind [TS]

  of issues where it's like oh all these [TS]

  things all these character [TS]

  characteristics that people exhibit are [TS]

  in culture ated in us right male [TS]

  violence and a and infamous helplessness [TS]

  female helplessness and all these things [TS]

  that just seemed like if we could [TS]

  perfectly engineer our culture and if we [TS]

  could eradicate these ideas that we [TS]

  could eradicate these systems from our [TS]

  culture that we would be able to achieve [TS]

  again like the end goal of like perfect [TS]

  equality and then you watch little kids [TS]

  and you're like oh my god there's [TS]

  nothing engineered about it like they [TS]

  they're just there are so many of our [TS]

  human traits that are in a tin us and [TS]

  not even I mean a lot of them we [TS]

  attribute to gender and they aren't even [TS]

  there just human traits across a wide [TS]

  spectrum and impossible to to codify [TS]

  impossible to engineer either in or out [TS]

  and all you can do is just create like [TS]

  reciprocating cultures of shame and [TS]

  unhappiness and and dissatisfaction by [TS]

  truck by getting in there and monkeying [TS]

  and trying to intervene him and this is [TS]

  the thing about like little kids hit [TS]

  each other and you can't let him do it [TS]

  you say hey we can't hit each other in [TS]

  here and they look at you like you're an [TS]

  idiot because of course you can hit each [TS]

  other like they just did it they just [TS]

  showed you how to hit somebody did you [TS]

  ever try it it works great [TS]

  that person was trying to get my doll [TS]

  and I him and now that I stopped what [TS]

  are you why are you telling me I can't [TS]

  it's the most effective strategy I've [TS]

  ever devised says 33 year old brain you [TS]

  know you're like well we can't we can't [TS]

  hit each other because we don't allow it [TS]

  because if we allowed it then we would [TS]

  be in a state of perpetual violence with [TS]

  each other because we all feel that way [TS]

  we walked down the street were just like [TS]

  I just wish I could hit all these people [TS]

  and then it's like except I don't want [TS]

  to get hit myself and I it's really like [TS]

  it does come back to a little bit of the [TS]

  fair play on some level I well it in the [TS]

  sense that only in the sense that you [TS]

  don't want to get hit yourself that the [TS]

  idea of fair play being that the smaller [TS]

  smaller kid gets it worse than the [TS]

  bigger kid if everybody's allowed to hit [TS]

  each other [TS]

  I mean that's the beginning of sort of [TS]

  fairness rather than just sort of we [TS]

  don't we don't hit each other because we [TS]

  don't like to be hit but also this other [TS]

  idea of like we can't let the big kid [TS]

  get his way over the little kid just [TS]

  because he's big and you know that's a [TS]

  very human-like I think I think animals [TS]

  don't I mean you know like orangutang [TS]

  four lions understand the concept of [TS]

  don't just bite your friend because he's [TS]

  gonna bite you like that's a pretty [TS]

  simple idea but the human idea of like [TS]

  don't we're not gonna we're all going to [TS]

  agree that it's not fair for the big kid [TS]

  to get his way more often than the [TS]

  little kid that's a thing that the [TS]

  animals don't share with us [TS]

  that's a that's the beginning of human [TS]

  that's the beginning of society and [TS]

  that's so you know so much stuff follows [TS]

  from that that we're going to school [TS]

  were going to intervene and and one of [TS]

  the things is that the little kid little [TS]

  kid do it as traditionally develop [TS]

  strategies to deal with being being [TS]

  swatted by the big kid right the little [TS]

  kid develops other skills and those [TS]

  other skills are part of the part of how [TS]

  culture is built culture is kind of [TS]

  built by little kids who developed other [TS]

  skills to avoid being swatted by big [TS]

  kids and when we intervene [TS]

  I mean this is it's just it's a it's [TS]

  like you're saying it's all an [TS]

  engineering problem [TS]

  and if you intervene to correct correct [TS]

  one thing that you you know one little [TS]

  leaky pipe you see that it's all part of [TS]

  a system and who knows who knows [TS]

  yeah I i guess so i i'm kinda I'm kind [TS]

  of glad it's it's not okay for big kids [TS]

  to hit little kids but personally but [TS]

  I'm what worries me and what I've [TS]

  worried about is the just the necessary [TS]

  hypocrisy of showing a kid [TS]

  hey look here's something i can show you [TS]

  some things we're doing this kind of [TS]

  behavior instead of that kind of [TS]

  behavior is something you'll instantly [TS]

  understand anything right we say to [TS]

  someone there's there's a natural order [TS]

  of things where if you say please and [TS]

  thank you [TS]

  you will make people happy and you will [TS]

  get away with stuff this is a good thing [TS]

  learn to say please and thank you it's [TS]

  just it's a really nice thing and in [TS]

  time you'll learn that that's a nice [TS]

  idea you could say things like it's [TS]

  better to be fair rather than not fair [TS]

  but then we also have to do these things [TS]

  that seem completely unfair [TS]

  last night I had with my daughter got up [TS]

  after she got into bed and my wife and I [TS]

  were watching TV and she came in she was [TS]

  mad because she couldn't watch TV [TS]

  so what what do I say when I say when I [TS]

  say which is like it well it's your [TS]

  bedtime now our bedtimes later we're [TS]

  watching TV like you know should I [TS]

  apologize for that no but that is [TS]

  inherently unfair to a little kid and I [TS]

  don't know but just from their point of [TS]

  view that's absolutely unfair like you [TS]

  guys get to go have fun and I have to go [TS]

  to bed you get to use your iPad whenever [TS]

  you want and I don't like that's really [TS]

  hypocritical on the face of it and it's [TS]

  but you know so I guess what I'm saying [TS]

  is I think what's complicated is we're [TS]

  asking kids on the one hand to see [TS]

  certain kinds of things as being natural [TS]

  law and like is not just a good idea to [TS]

  do it that way isn't it just a good idea [TS]

  to close the refrigerator door so we [TS]

  don't waste energy and stuff like that [TS]

  and then other times we have to say well [TS]

  except there are times when the thing [TS]

  that seems really natural is actually [TS]

  the opposite of that and you just need [TS]

  to learn that right that some of the [TS]

  right i try to you know I don't have an [TS]

  answer to that I think some of those [TS]

  things confusing some of those things we [TS]

  need you to just learn like as in just [TS]

  memorize this rule and and one day it'll [TS]

  make sense and some things it's like we [TS]

  want you to learn the concept that [TS]

  governs this as a thank you but don't [TS]

  get in a white van that i still find [TS]

  that very complicated thing [TS]

  right right well and the thing is that I [TS]

  don't you know I watching watching this [TS]

  experience with kids [TS]

  uh my instinct is to extrapolate it to [TS]

  adults because I feel like ninety-nine [TS]

  percent of adults interactions are kid [TS]

  interactions that are just extrapolated [TS]

  to like interactions plus iphones yeah [TS]

  kid interactions plus the the arrogance [TS]

  of feeling like because you've been [TS]

  alive for 25 more years your spew [TS]

  understand things any better [TS]

  and the thing is that I to believe that [TS]

  the big kids shouldn't be able to hit [TS]

  the little kid like I believe that is an [TS]

  evolution and I don't think that that I [TS]

  think that that rule is true in America [TS]

  and inns in debt [TS]

  and inns in debt [TS]

  mark and in in in germany and in you [TS]

  know like in certain places in the world [TS]

  but i don't think that that rule is [TS]

  necessarily true in Russia or the [TS]

  Ukraine or Serbia right now let alone in [TS]

  a bit places that I haven't been but [TS]

  have suspicions about right and and but [TS]

  but what I don't what I mission using [TS]

  it's unrealistic in some cultures to say [TS]

  that that's a natural law [TS]

  oh I don't think is a natural law and [TS]

  this is the point I'm making the big kid [TS]

  should not hit the little kid is not a [TS]

  natural law it is that it is a thought [TS]

  technology and the problem with us in [TS]

  America is that a hundred years ago we [TS]

  still recognize that that was the [TS]

  thought technology and we were proud of [TS]

  having invented this idea and it was [TS]

  part of you know it was part of our [TS]

  legacy of Western Europe that we had off [TS]

  you know honor and you didn't hurt the [TS]

  little guy and you you know women and [TS]

  children first off the boat like these [TS]

  were concepts that we were justifiably [TS]

  proud of because they were inventions [TS]

  there's nothing natural about that ok [TS]

  and in and if you let human beings go [TS]

  even a little bit that though that you [TS]

  see even in modern cultures that those [TS]

  rules are not that that that's like [TS]

  pretty far down the road you know the [TS]

  big man still is in charge in most of [TS]

  the world still here and we're all [TS]

  sharing the same internet but it doesn't [TS]

  change the fact that he walk into a [TS]

  village somewhere and you see that the [TS]

  big guys in charge and the little guy [TS]

  comes up to me and says hey but I any [TS]

  kind of wax him and everybody goes oh [TS]

  shit you know right thats that is that's [TS]

  the that's the that's the law the normal [TS]

  law so the fact that we have the fact [TS]

  that we've made these advances these [TS]

  cultural advances we have the idea we [TS]

  have in we've expanded the idea of [TS]

  fairness [TS]

  what is it has also happened to us in [TS]

  the last hundred years is that we've [TS]

  stopped [TS]

  recognizing that those are and not even [TS]

  the last hundred years we've stopped [TS]

  recognizing that those are thought [TS]

  technologies and started to talk about [TS]

  them as though their natural rights and [TS]

  if you if you if you start making policy [TS]

  if you start living your own life [TS]

  according to this expanded idea of [TS]

  natural rights that's what causes causes [TS]

  a tremendous amount of confusion a lot [TS]

  of figure you're gonna have a lot of [TS]

  cognitive dissonance have a lot of [TS]

  talking two incidents and a lot of a lot [TS]

  of out it's a lot of outrage because [TS]

  you're standing there saying how dare [TS]

  you [TS]

  and you're saying that because you [TS]

  believe that that somehow the the the [TS]

  intrinsic level of Justice is a lot [TS]

  higher than it is and what you're what [TS]

  you're not doing is giving credit to all [TS]

  the work that went into establishing [TS]

  that bulwark against all against all [TS]

  against a Hobbesian world and all that [TS]

  work is our legacy and I and I [TS]

  understand the culturally there's a lot [TS]

  we spent a lot of effort to kind of tear [TS]

  down the Western European colonial the [TS]

  idea that civilization came from the you [TS]

  know from the english courts or whatever [TS]

  but in in stripping away all of that and [TS]

  saying like no no we need to we need to [TS]

  incorporate all the the traditions of [TS]

  every culture we don't want to live in [TS]

  this sort of dominant mode [TS]

  we've forgotten that some of those some [TS]

  of those traditions of of chivalry and [TS]

  english law were novel only occurred in [TS]

  one place are now widely adopted but are [TS]

  ultimately a an artificial overlay that [TS]

  if we want if we believe in we need to [TS]

  we need to protect [TS]

  and that begins with understanding that [TS]

  it is it's like air conditioning that we [TS]

  invented it it it demonstrable he makes [TS]

  life better but if we don't maintain it [TS]

  then it stops working again and when the [TS]

  air conditioning goes off it doesn't do [TS]

  any good to sit in a hot room and and [TS]

  scream but that the air conditioning [TS]

  went off you have to get up and fix the [TS]

  air conditioning and that is that's true [TS]

  of that's true really of a system of [TS]

  justice to that was that was some really [TS]

  good explaining you know what you get a [TS]

  bell [TS]

  I'm good that's a little bit of [TS]

  mansplaining yeah we get what I want you [TS]

  to mansplain something to me [TS]

  sure I do not oh my god i'm gonna get so [TS]

  many angry letter [TS]

  oh god please I do not have this woman i [TS]

  do not understand [TS]

  Harry Nilsson oh oh you're gonna get a [TS]

  sad letter i'm gonna get so many sad [TS]

  letters [TS]

  well you're gonna get several set [TS]

  letters from one guy could think of I [TS]

  can think of a few guys that are going [TS]

  to send me some settlers on gone [TS]

  head-to-head on Harry Nilsson before we [TS]

  because we've gone we we've gone [TS]

  head-to-head on so many things you have [TS]

  in a civil society and you realize [TS]

  that's a conversation you guys can't [TS]

  even have that but here's the thing i'm [TS]

  not against Harry Nilsson I everything [TS]

  that he does i love obviously love his [TS]

  voice I love is don't get why he's so [TS]

  big i love his hits right but the thing [TS]

  that everybody talks about his [TS]

  songwriting his miraculous songwriting [TS]

  it seems to me that he is just sort of [TS]

  me and ring both is both of both uh like [TS]

  lyrically and melodically meandering [TS]

  down a path where he's kind of singing [TS]

  some some thoughts it with a sort of [TS]

  sing song melody and you know you get [TS]

  halfway through the song you get to the [TS]

  end of the song and it's like huh well [TS]

  yeah i'm sure i like that that was that [TS]

  was good [TS]

  over but but i do not have a i do not [TS]

  have this feeling that he is at that he [TS]

  is at the dawn [TS]

  of a certain kind of pop that didn't [TS]

  exist before I mean maybe I Asia maybe [TS]

  it's that it didn't exist before and I [TS]

  I've grown up since then and so I don't [TS]

  see the novelty that maybe was a parent [TS]

  in 1969 or something [TS]

  I think it's the all Merlin man's [TS]

  playing this to you and part of it is [TS]

  the rise of the documentary mean the the [TS]

  documentary that will almost certainly [TS]

  feature chuck klosterman thurston moore [TS]

  and flee at some point [TS]

  good girl be there good as you know [TS]

  what's up a log was quietly passed in [TS]

  the days after nine eleven that they [TS]

  have to be in every music documentary [TS]

  where you know Martin Scorsese sitting [TS]

  in a theater meaning under me like a lot [TS]

  maybe haha like what's playing [TS]

  I you know it's funny though cause like [TS]

  you know we will i started watching the [TS]

  documentary last night on nas and the [TS]

  making of illmatic which I've listened [TS]

  to about twice or three times i listen [TS]

  to mostly because of jay-z and their you [TS]

  know their feud [TS]

  it's a really really good record I can't [TS]

  like I couldn't wrap it to you the way I [TS]

  could like a public enemy record but I [TS]

  just thinking as I watched that was [TS]

  really well done beautifully made [TS]

  watch the first few minutes of it to my [TS]

  daughter woke up I just want to ask you [TS]

  did I have the option that you would [TS]

  wrap me public enemy records [TS]

  chuckles it if i invite if I had known I [TS]

  had that option I would have asked for a [TS]

  lot sooner 1989 the number or another [TS]

  summer sound of the fucking drama music [TS]

  in your heart because I know you got [TS]

  soul brothers and sisters John Wayne [TS]

  most never meant shit to mean straight [TS]

  up raises that sucker was simple [TS]

  Elvis Elvis was here at the most that's [TS]

  right well done John Wayne to else was a [TS]

  hero to most but he never meant shit to [TS]

  me straight up great stocking stuffer [TS]

  simple and plain by the fucking man John [TS]

  way and i'm hoping bucket on prime x [TS]

  plus I'm am most of my heroes don't [TS]

  appear on no stamps [TS]

  yes boy did I ever listened to that [TS]

  record a lot but you know if you don't [TS]

  understand I got no problem [TS]

  understanding what I'm saying is it's [TS]

  it's funny because think about like okay [TS]

  because the heavily lauded recent [TS]

  documentaries that were that are like [TS]

  you know good like the 20 feet from [TS]

  stardom about backup singers my muscle [TS]

  shoals nom [TS]

  there's been a lot of these like [TS]

  high-profile not netflix created [TS]

  documentaries [TS]

  then our about weed or food that where [TS]

  you watch them and the thing is even if [TS]

  you don't know anything about that [TS]

  person like what other ones the things [TS]

  things about Daniel Johnston like almost [TS]

  nobody's heard Daniel Johnston what they [TS]

  think of them as ask this character but [TS]

  you're talking about him there's [TS]

  something about like once somebody makes [TS]

  a documentary about you like in a [TS]

  well-made documentary you kind of can't [TS]

  help it disappear into that artists even [TS]

  if you've never heard them before [TS]

  wonder if that's part of it I mean [TS]

  sounds to me like you're saying you're [TS]

  saying Nelson maybe he goes somewhere up [TS]

  with an eric carmen look a good pop [TS]

  songwriter but not like well yeah but [TS]

  it's the thing I mean a long time but I [TS]

  mean I understand like the resurgence [TS]

  based on on like like people are looking [TS]

  back in time and try and we're doing [TS]

  kind of a northern soul thing except [TS]

  with our own culture everything like [TS]

  what are some of the great the great [TS]

  songwriters that we never heard of [TS]

  let's go back fine like the good ones [TS]

  but in 1970 like randy newman and but [TS]

  they just the way I say his name randy [TS]

  newman and and Brian Wilson when the [TS]

  plant is still talking very forgiving [TS]

  you baby but here's got to go dive guide [TS]

  internationally civilization that [TS]

  becoming really should but all those [TS]

  guys they all love Nelson let you know I [TS]

  think he is and I'm not slagging here [TS]

  but i think i think of him kind of like [TS]

  Nick Drake or maybe kind of like oh shit [TS]

  i just hadn't lost it [TS]

  maybe to a certain extent Jimmy Webb me [TS]

  where these characters that were very [TS]

  unusual for their time but nick drake [TS]

  what you like two records if you go to [TS]

  records with them about nick drake is [TS]

  Jake's you got it like you know I mean [TS]

  it's he had one sound and this is the [TS]

  thing about a sound right if you make [TS]

  too if you make two records and even one [TS]

  of them just has a sound all the way [TS]

  through it [TS]

  yeah it's like that's all he needed to [TS]

  do he just invented a sound and then he [TS]

  can go or not invented but he he [TS]

  perfected a sound and then he can get on [TS]

  the [TS]

  load and go across the water mhm uh the [TS]

  thing about the thing about Nelson is [TS]

  that every song is different and so it's [TS]

  not clear what the you know what the [TS]

  connection is he didn't invent a sound [TS]

  right he's got a great voice but he's a [TS]

  he and I don't know I i have to spend [TS]

  more time now where do you stand on what [TS]

  do you stand on Sage on deck you feeling [TS]

  try to get some other documentary people [TS]

  or scott walker you gotta feeling on [TS]

  Scott Walker documentary I haven't seen [TS]

  Scott Walker document hello brother you [TS]

  need to see that one guy's got a lot of [TS]

  fucking balls in the air [TS]

  Scott Walker you're saying is not [TS]

  walking from the Walker brothers and so [TS]

  basically in the Walker brothers he did [TS]

  those righteous brothers style songs [TS]

  covers and then like the last Walker [TS]

  brothers record was pretty fucking weird [TS]

  then he went solo and each subsequent [TS]

  record of his has been more like totally [TS]

  bananas in the documentary you can see [TS]

  him recording he recorded about every 10 [TS]

  years now and so that the percussion [TS]

  involves like getting a side of beef and [TS]

  stuff and it's harrowing and and [TS]

  delightful you know you know you know [TS]

  the singer the unique you've heard of [TS]

  you know it's yellow area for sure [TS]

  uh ah I feel like I need to I need to [TS]

  watch some more music documentaries one [TS]

  thing we're gonna do this music month [TS]

  you know what we should we should just [TS]

  make this music month we should talk [TS]

  about you like a whole time [TS]

  yeah I i do I feel like I feel like as i [TS]

  am thinking about starting to rejoin the [TS]

  songwriting game and wondering like what [TS]

  my place in it is and what I what I have [TS]

  to contribute to the songwriting a pile [TS]

  get your dienophile you know watching [TS]

  these guys uh and and and gals who do it [TS]

  successfully and find their own way [TS]

  through you know like I mean I I don't [TS]

  understand Joni Mitchell either but i [TS]

  definitely understand [TS]

  that without Joni Mitchell there would [TS]

  be no Sheryl Crow and without show crow [TS]

  where would we be [TS]

  so in that sense thanks i was we keep [TS]

  unknown he's saying a base you coming to [TS]

  college to a more gets up every morning [TS]

  and writes a song that's what he does [TS]

  Randy Newman gets up every morning as a [TS]

  cup of coffee as a bagel when he goes [TS]

  down to the studio and he writes songs [TS]

  until it until it's quittin time went to [TS]

  bid leave now feeling kind of fell to [TS]

  get a good movement bells [TS]

  when you gonna up that he means the [TS]

  sheepdog at the punch-out machine [TS]

  hey Frank during a Randy area [TS]

  ok that's good but Scott Walker 30 [TS]

  century man [TS]