Roderick on the Line

Ep. 153: "The Time Buffalo"


  this episode of Roderick on the line is [TS]

  sponsored by slack the messaging app for [TS]

  teams slack consolidates all your work [TS]

  communications into one place makes them [TS]

  instantly searchable and available on [TS]

  any device slack is free to use for as [TS]

  long as you want with as many users as [TS]

  you want start using slack today by [TS]

  visiting slack calm / supertrain [TS]

  [Music] [TS]

  beep-boop-beep-boop-beep more was going [TS]

  but I'll wallet [TS]

  it's going good at it's going great [TS]

  yeah how so good so good I was just uh I [TS]

  was just listening to some hold music [TS]

  and the whole music was maybe the best [TS]

  most appropriate hold music I'd ever [TS]

  heard in all the years [TS]

  what's that it was one lonely violin [TS]

  playing a kind of gypsy funeral music [TS]

  that's a very interesting choice you [TS]

  know and so often now you got to get on [TS]

  hold music and it's just like school or [TS]

  some terrible thing I never understood [TS]

  that and this was like just one violin [TS]

  just like 12 ya somethin mournful super [TS]

  mournful kva city is standing on the [TS]

  roof of his general just playing this [TS]

  scenario [TS]

  single by Lynn and I was just like this [TS]

  is the greatest and it was kind of hero [TS]

  was all scratchy old system was like why [TS]

  aren't all why isn't all hold music like [TS]

  this i just i seriously want this it's [TS]

  it is important with my mood [TS]

  yeah I mean I there's so much about [TS]

  holes under must be reasonably is the [TS]

  way that they do but like there's seems [TS]

  like there's these worst practices of [TS]

  things were like you know the the [TS]

  ultimately as the person who's on the [TS]

  phone [TS]

  ideally you want to speak as quickly as [TS]

  possible but if you can't speak as [TS]

  quickly as possible [TS]

  it's nice to be able to like do other [TS]

  stuff or you know so you know I the [TS]

  thing is what drives me crazy especially [TS]

  if you're on like without the comcast [TS]

  company is it breaks in here click and [TS]

  you'll go take a speaker wherever we go [TS]

  and get here click and then the music [TS]

  stops and they go into an ad [TS]

  yeah where you know so I mean I almost [TS]

  feel like I wish they would just have [TS]

  some kind of a tone or 70 [TS]

  the wrong approach but then also like [TS]

  you say systems are so shitty [TS]

  everything's all like jumping if it was [TS]

  good music it would sound like the worst [TS]

  am radio like inside of a fish tank [TS]

  right yeah and the the phone tree system [TS]

  that i just tried to navigate said you [TS]

  know for one press of for English press [TS]

  one side best one said for for the thing [TS]

  you're not interested in press one for [TS]

  the thing you're not interested in also [TS]

  press two for the thing you are [TS]

  interested in press three [TS]

  so I press three they said for the the [TS]

  permutation of the thing that you are [TS]

  interested in that you're not interested [TS]

  in press one for the permutation of the [TS]

  thing that you are interested in that [TS]

  you're not interested in press two for [TS]

  the permutation you are interested in [TS]

  press three and press three [TS]

  but it's like stuff you should have [TS]

  already been going to be there because [TS]

  you've already dismissed that [TS]

  yeah right and here we go and was so and [TS]

  I do that three or four times and then I [TS]

  get an A and finally the recorded [TS]

  message says for the thing for the exact [TS]

  reason that you are calling press one [TS]

  and I'm like here we go and i pressed [TS]

  one and it gave me a minute long [TS]

  recording of a voice telling me [TS]

  everything that I already knew and [TS]

  couldn't have been to this place in [TS]

  their phone tree without knowing right [TS]

  and then at the end of the phone miss at [TS]

  the end of that message there was no [TS]

  further option to progress to the next [TS]

  level so it was basically made it to an [TS]

  announcement [TS]

  it was the ultimate may I made it here [TS]

  to an announcement that is reading from [TS]

  a powerpoint demonstration of God and a [TS]

  powerpoint demonstration of how to how [TS]

  to have be the most basic and and then [TS]

  it was just like to repeat this press [TS]

  one to go back to the menu and so at [TS]

  that point all you can do is go operator [TS]

  operator operator 000 right and I [TS]

  normally do that with without even [TS]

  listening to the first thing but today I [TS]

  felt generous i was like i'm gonna [TS]

  follow this poetry although i'm going to [TS]

  go up into the highest branches of this [TS]

  tree where the view will be spectacular [TS]

  we're part of it i think about like when [TS]

  you're trying to write something long or [TS]

  when you're dealing with a big project [TS]

  I mean with me like for example trying [TS]

  to write that book a few years ago I was [TS]

  constantly torn between these two [TS]

  impulses there was the one impulse to [TS]

  just make make make new stuff which is I [TS]

  think the good impulse when you're [TS]

  drafting then there's the other impulse [TS]

  which is like yeah but you should also [TS]

  keep outlining and reviewing what you've [TS]

  done already not revising but like is [TS]

  this compulsion of like feeling like I [TS]

  have to make sure that this is going to [TS]

  make sense with what I've already done [TS]

  and I wonder if influential like that [TS]

  you take that model and spread across [TS]

  different business units and you have [TS]

  different people contributing different [TS]

  parts to the tree and there's not [TS]

  anybody who's project managing how [TS]

  sensible it is to hear something a given [TS]

  point and maybe it's not totally up to [TS]

  date you know what I mean yes I can see [TS]

  that really in a large even in a [TS]

  specially medium-sized corporation i [TS]

  would say we wouldn't have dedicated [TS]

  resources I can I could see that [TS]

  happening [TS]

  well I know it's like I think it's [TS]

  analogous to the way that we misuse the [TS]

  police in the sense that what if we have [TS]

  a problem in our town and you don't know [TS]

  how to solve it you send the police [TS]

  right even though the police are not [TS]

  problem solvers really they're not [TS]

  that's not the problem solving unit of [TS]

  the city have thought about that that's [TS]

  interesting that's interesting in like [TS]

  the police are really useful in certain [TS]

  ways but they are not the like we did [TS]

  they're not the psychology team to go [TS]

  out to figure out what somebody's why [TS]

  somebody's yelling right and in in [TS]

  business [TS]

  it seems like the engineers are the [TS]

  people that they send to solve a lot of [TS]

  problems right send the engineers and [TS]

  the engineers are you know they're [TS]

  they're like the police they're very [TS]

  good at at doing the thing that they do [TS]

  but they are you know they're not the [TS]

  ones that you send in to do just to [TS]

  check to see if a normal person can [TS]

  figure out your project if a normal [TS]

  person who isn't who has no inside [TS]

  knowledge is going to show up at the [TS]

  front door [TS]

  look for the doorbell yeah and you know [TS]

  in the engineers like well there isn't a [TS]

  doorbell clearly what you need to do at [TS]

  that point is to you know retina scan or [TS]

  whatever it's like the persons looking [TS]

  for the doorbell can't find it right and [TS]

  that you know and that disconnect where [TS]

  businesses don't you know and like every [TS]

  business [TS]

  should hire a squad of normals right [TS]

  there should be like team normal wear [TS]

  those people are constantly kept totally [TS]

  in the dark about your about the product [TS]

  your business makes everything and how [TS]

  it's made and how it's made and then but [TS]

  they are the like they are the final the [TS]

  final test and it's not like testers [TS]

  they actually belong to their they are [TS]

  they're part of your business and you [TS]

  just unleash your stuff on them write [TS]

  something a little bit [TS]

  unbuttons the wrong word but it's [TS]

  somebody who's there specifically to [TS]

  find what's broken about what you're [TS]

  doing [TS]

  I'm not just a tester but somebody in [TS]

  that case and I'm actually that someone [TS]

  like testing now that I hear those words [TS]

  but it's somebody's job it is to [TS]

  advocate for the the busy and confused [TS]

  person [TS]

  yeah right now if you're I guess what [TS]

  you have to do is you have to imagine [TS]

  and this is the thing that that happens [TS]

  so infrequently in the way that we [TS]

  design things it's like imagine the [TS]

  person not just your imagine the user [TS]

  right but like imagine a user who has no [TS]

  who doesn't even know they want to use [TS]

  your product who doesn't who you know [TS]

  imagine the user who's showing up there [TS]

  with like a crying baby whose doesn't [TS]

  exactly what i was thinking you know [TS]

  it's exact was just thinking of having [TS]

  to hold a crying baby and use the phone [TS]

  with one hand right when you totally [TS]

  self-absorbed position to take but those [TS]

  are the times I felt most acutely this [TS]

  was never designed to work in this [TS]

  situation and this is when I really [TS]

  needed to work right but here's the [TS]

  thing here's one you ready for this [TS]

  never have any device this happens with [TS]

  bluetooth speakers have lots of never [TS]

  have any device in the world that makes [TS]

  a noise when you turn it off like a car [TS]

  should not make a noise when it's locked [TS]

  that was a baby and it's just [TS]

  unnecessary have a bluetooth speaker my [TS]

  shower that makes a blue when you shut [TS]

  it off [TS]

  I was never aware of how many things [TS]

  make a noise when you turn them off [TS]

  until I had a kid I was trying to get to [TS]

  sleep you can get a use case you think [TS]

  they're saying goodbye is that is that [TS]

  what the the concept is like well the [TS]

  one they turn it off we should we should [TS]

  set to give them one last salutation [TS]

  right i think it's probably part of a [TS]

  certain kind of customer service [TS]

  experience where like you know it used [TS]

  to be that felt like a sign of status [TS]

  that your car made a bloop you know only [TS]

  douchebags and rich kids had those [TS]

  at one time and so once that became now [TS]

  you were kinda like when you're you know [TS]

  for doesn't matter whatever like you [TS]

  feel like you're a big shot up the ramp [TS]

  yeah i'll answer Maryland especially [TS]

  with speakers though I think it's a [TS]

  confluence of two annoying things which [TS]

  is on the one hand like this my [TS]

  bluetooth speaker in the shower [TS]

  it's just speaker on a suction cup is [TS]

  water resistant water proof nominally [TS]

  but it's very very cheap was like nine [TS]

  dollars and I and like what you couldn't [TS]

  do with good interface you need to cover [TS]

  you need to do some house so for example [TS]

  there's a light that blinks the entire [TS]

  time that's on which makes me a little [TS]

  bit crazy and then it makes a blue one [TS]

  blue please turn on what we turn off [TS]

  that's how lets you know right yeah I i [TS]

  was sort of side question yes speaker [TS]

  with a suction cup on it [TS]

  have you ever sitting in the bath [TS]

  suction-cupped the speaker to your self [TS]

  now you know when it's a great question [TS]

  if i were a little younger I think that [TS]

  would probably one of the first or [TS]

  second things like I did not like [TS]

  selection couple things to myself you [TS]

  know I'm gonna like turn it up and see [TS]

  like our fields all right it would be [TS]

  like yeah you really going to be a [TS]

  haptic right you really feel the music [TS]

  you feelin not happen but you feel the [TS]

  music in your head now like your [TS]

  your-your-your there in the shower [TS]

  let's see being kind of high-end trying [TS]

  that Alex suction cup the speaker to [TS]

  yourself and then you're like while [TS]

  you're waiting on hold pretty you know I [TS]

  can I I imagined that I would ultimately [TS]

  have to try that [TS]

  yeah you know the other thing is I I [TS]

  like what you said though about the [TS]

  police being like the engineers being [TS]

  like the police [TS]

  mmm i think there's there's a lot in [TS]

  common there but i think there's another [TS]

  two different poor impulses with the [TS]

  police maybe for me I kind of feel like [TS]

  they become my surrogate dad were like [TS]

  if I felt like I've done everything I [TS]

  can to ask control threaten and it still [TS]

  doesn't work out or I'm annoyed you know [TS]

  I tried to do this anymore but you end [TS]

  up calling the police today coming to [TS]

  take care of this thing like you you [TS]

  should you're gonna you go to the cold [TS]

  police you're making the noise [TS]

  yeah in with engineers i have a feeling [TS]

  the impulse is more practical of like [TS]

  well these nerves are going to have to [TS]

  be the ones who you know do this anyway [TS]

  let's just give it straight to them [TS]

  uh-oh [TS]

  you know and I'm nothing against you [TS]

  know engineering it's like it's it's [TS]

  such a misunderstood and difficult job [TS]

  but you know it's it's likely say you [TS]

  know don't don't put the guy who claims [TS]

  that cleans up after the elephants in [TS]

  charge of who's allowed to be in the [TS]

  parade because he's going to have a very [TS]

  specific point of view but I I feel like [TS]

  I feel like this there are there are [TS]

  products and there are things that we [TS]

  interact with that are that are purely [TS]

  for pleasure right that we you know like [TS]

  a guitar for instance you very seldom [TS]

  sit down pick up a guitar and go oh god [TS]

  I hate this guitar i just have to deal [TS]

  with it right now right and there are [TS]

  lots of things in our world [TS]

  oh yeah that are in that category just [TS]

  like I I just can't wait to get alone [TS]

  with this thing but most of the products [TS]

  that we are being sold now and most of [TS]

  the the way design works now the [TS]

  presumption of everybody a presumption [TS]

  of the people making the thing are like [TS]

  okay are you ready to sit down with your [TS]

  epson eps XP 400s and really get into [TS]

  this experience of working with this you [TS]

  know we're going to give you like a [TS]

  screen that has a sunset on it it's [TS]

  going to say hi to you right you're [TS]

  going it's going to give you my [TS]

  microwave microwave when it goes off it [TS]

  scrolls and leds enjoy your meal haha [TS]

  right and so insulting i don't want to [TS]

  been applying its greeting me and start [TS]

  your day I Antonio Berlin come back i'm [TS]

  talking to you you know and this this [TS]

  concept of like I mean ninety percent of [TS]

  the things that I interact within the [TS]

  day I but my met my attitude about it is [TS]

  I don't really want to be here [TS]

  interacting with you I just have to get [TS]

  through this process please can you just [TS]

  make it as simple as absolutely and so [TS]

  you walk up to the ATM and they're like [TS]

  hi would you like to hang out with me [TS]

  the ATM machine let's let's chat about [TS]

  you know it's just like up yours [TS]

  up yours bank up yours machine up yours [TS]

  programmer up yours everybody just give [TS]

  me the like basic and and that and that [TS]

  the idea that the the nicest thing that [TS]

  these people could do [TS]

  who are designing these things is [TS]

  designed it so that you so that is [TS]

  invisible and then it does not assert [TS]

  itself right because you are standing [TS]

  there not only with the crying baby but [TS]

  somewhere else to be [TS]

  you don't nobody goes to the ATM machine [TS]

  like I can't you know what later on [TS]

  today after i'm done with my work and I [TS]

  really need the money but I just enjoy [TS]

  the experience [TS]

  yeah i'm gonna change into something [TS]

  comfortable and just go down and fucking [TS]

  chat with me taking fucking language and [TS]

  just hang out man i'm gonna i'm gonna [TS]

  call up some phone trees pick a language [TS]

  maybe i'll pick it maybe i'll pick in [TS]

  the language that isn't mine and just [TS]

  listen to what it says in a different [TS]

  language and and I see that so I mean [TS]

  like every copier I've bought in the [TS]

  last however long you know which is a [TS]

  lot more copies than I ever should have [TS]

  had to Bonnie photocopiers photocopier [TS]

  zat Arras multifunction printers that's [TS]

  right there are also yes scanners and [TS]

  also you know can do a thousand other [TS]

  things and every one of them is just is [TS]

  just like at a loss leader pyramid [TS]

  scheme to sell overpriced cartridges [TS]

  right right that our thing that would [TS]

  work just like somebody was like what if [TS]

  we made ink out of bb's and each one of [TS]

  those babies cost a dollar [TS]

  like that's a for that is a visit that [TS]

  sounds like apples cloud right that [TS]

  sounds like a thing that we can just [TS]

  charge people it's just it's the [TS]

  ultimate it's the ultimate Remora the [TS]

  ultimate steal that Celia and so I you [TS]

  know how many printers are bought and i [TS]

  think half the printers i bought our [TS]

  because the their predecessor i threw [TS]

  out a window and every one of these are [TS]

  blind and then we've got it can can look [TS]

  at work with cloud-based printing which [TS]

  is really cool [TS]

  need some help but just even going in to [TS]

  enter the Wi-Fi password have a pretty [TS]

  good Wi-Fi password about you doing in [TS]

  and entering that using an up and down [TS]

  arrow to choose a letter capital no [TS]

  lower case number character [TS]

  I mean seriously and then of course does [TS]

  the whole likes high security thing [TS]

  where it doesn't you see what you've [TS]

  already typed in uh huh so it's one of [TS]

  those is one of those times where like [TS]

  again it's the reality is butting up [TS]

  against the best practices everybody [TS]

  should be using a better password but it [TS]

  doesn't take that many times of having [TS]

  to do that before you go you know I'm [TS]

  changing my netflix password to pencil [TS]

  every day well wait a minute what if [TS]

  somebody's looking over your shoulder [TS]

  when you put your password in your [TS]

  printer they can be off happening here [TS]

  is a choice of identity theft maybe [TS]

  print shit all day while you're at work [TS]

  you come home your whole house is full [TS]

  of like I did aliens and this scan this [TS]

  friends this episode of Roderick on the [TS]

  line is sponsored by slack the messaging [TS]

  app for teens i'm told that it sounds [TS]

  like I'm saying teens but this is the [TS]

  messaging app for teams although I have [TS]

  to imagine that teens are probably [TS]

  welcome as well in any case slack [TS]

  consolidates all your work [TS]

  communications into one place makes them [TS]

  instantly searchable and available on [TS]

  any device guys this is a very [TS]

  compelling new thought technology slack [TS]

  easily integrates with all the tools and [TS]

  services you already use all the great [TS]

  tools stuff like Google Drive and [TS]

  hangouts dropbox github stripe you name [TS]

  it [TS]

  so that means you have just this one [TS]

  beautiful place to go to keep up with [TS]

  everything that's happening on your team [TS]

  what's great is that slack also makes [TS]

  all your stuff searchable so every [TS]

  discussion every decision and document [TS]

  is archived index and available to a [TS]

  single search box [TS]

  no more digging through piles of old [TS]

  Braille Playboy's trying to find the [TS]

  Henderson report it's all just right [TS]

  there [TS]

  slack is used by over 500,000 people [TS]

  more than 60,000 teams every day that [TS]

  includes companies like the new york [TS]

  times perhaps you've heard of them [TS]

  ebay adobe and even the icecube neutrino [TS]

  Observatory who use slack all the way [TS]

  down at the South Pole [TS]

  that's the pole where the penguins live [TS]

  here's the really cool part black is [TS]

  free to use for as long as you want and [TS]

  with as many users as you want [TS]

  it's super easy to get started using [TS]

  select today by visiting slack dot-com / [TS]

  supertrain here's the crazy part when [TS]

  you sign up for your free account from [TS]

  that page you'll also get one hundred [TS]

  dollars in credit to use if you ever [TS]

  decide to upgrade to the mini fantastic [TS]

  features of slacks paid plans point is [TS]

  you need to get on this by signing up at [TS]

  slac dot-com / supertrain many thanks to [TS]

  slack the messaging app for teams for [TS]

  taking some of the pain out of staying [TS]

  connected and for their wonderful [TS]

  support of rather cuddle [TS]

  and screw you world uh it's it's so true [TS]

  you know it's funny I think about like [TS]

  the kind of jobs i can pass and refer to [TS]

  certain jobs I've had as someone in [TS]

  accurately but I felt like an [TS]

  information janitor where nobody notices [TS]

  what I do until the toilets backup [TS]

  you know the kind of job I've always [TS]

  been one of the one hand never wanted to [TS]

  have the kind of job where people only [TS]

  notice what you do when it doesn't go [TS]

  flawlessly that would be a terrible [TS]

  thing the other thing is I've never [TS]

  wanted to have one of those kinds of [TS]

  jobs where the success of the [TS]

  interaction is mostly based on how [TS]

  little they had to interact with you so [TS]

  you think about checking into a hotel [TS]

  late at night you think about you know [TS]

  obviously rental car because you know [TS]

  the rental cars like the worst because [TS]

  at that point you're like uh okay i'm [TS]

  finally done with all these flights and [TS]

  I'm not into the hotel yet now i gotta [TS]

  get a rental car and like every like [TS]

  picosecond that goes by that you're [TS]

  having to deal with that person and [TS]

  they're asking what the gps and in and [TS]

  dudn't know I just you know I mean it's [TS]

  like yeah that's the problem is though [TS]

  there with a device that's kind of what [TS]

  you really want you wanna be able to [TS]

  cover people's needs with an ATM but you [TS]

  know you don't want to turn into the I [TS]

  mean I again but we're going to guess [TS]

  what I'm saying is we're going to [TS]

  evaluate that interaction based on how [TS]

  little time it took its kind of how I [TS]

  feel about going out to eat I just want [TS]

  somebody is extremely efficient I don't [TS]

  want to talk about my day [TS]

  hi guys how y'all doing tonight how we [TS]

  deal and i'm skipping mind if I don't [TS]

  just settle in here to reminisce with [TS]

  you say lots of our appies via the great [TS]

  thing about the rental car business at [TS]

  airports is that you know they know that [TS]

  you're exhausted they know that you just [TS]

  want to get out of there and that's why [TS]

  they take that opportunity to upsell u14 [TS]

  time it's all that's the thing is their [TS]

  margins are so thin right down and it's [TS]

  gonna be all about all that other crap [TS]

  in the collision and explaining their [TS]

  the other just counting on you going [TS]

  like fine fine fine whatever whatever [TS]

  whatever like give it to me but what's [TS]

  amazing is that my interacting with my [TS]

  iphone as much as I do how much the [TS]

  business model of the internet right now [TS]

  is based on that same kind of coercion [TS]

  like oh are you really excited to watch [TS]

  this this little YouTube video well why [TS]

  don't we take 15 seconds and talk about [TS]

  your courage [TS]

  plans for the the best one is I I [TS]

  figured out like my latest attack which [TS]

  is akin to my hack of never upgrading my [TS]

  operating system huh [TS]

  my latest attack is i went in and i [TS]

  turned off cellular data uh in my iphone [TS]

  on all my games [TS]

  ok interesting that is a life hack I [TS]

  don't want my games interacting with the [TS]

  internet and what I discovered is I [TS]

  turned off cellular data for my games [TS]

  and that prohibits the games from [TS]

  downloading video advertisements which [TS]

  often are the thing that Jam my phone up [TS]

  the most absolutely but Apple has made [TS]

  sure that every time I turn on something [TS]

  that has cellular data disabled it pops [TS]

  up a screen that says cellular data is [TS]

  disabled for this and it won't let me do [TS]

  anything else right until I close that [TS]

  screen and so I never thought of that [TS]

  because the average the the revenue is [TS]

  going to come from advertising right so [TS]

  never thought of that [TS]

  so they are you know they're doing they [TS]

  they allow it but they make sure to [TS]

  punish you each time by saying like this [TS]

  thing that you know you've done where we [TS]

  want you to know that you've done it you [TS]

  think that's Apple i mean i think the [TS]

  Apple functionality of telling you you [TS]

  can't do something because you shut that [TS]

  off is a good idea [TS]

  reminding you that you're in airplane [TS]

  mode or something I mean for that I [TS]

  thought would look more to the [TS]

  developers who are putting ads in there [TS]

  is the way to sustain that I'm not sure [TS]

  because you know like sometimes I will [TS]

  make the mistake out i'll turn off [TS]

  location services in something because i [TS]

  don't want my photos tagged million [TS]

  shares location but then and i'm not [TS]

  even sure if that works that may just be [TS]

  a total like problem but i do what i can [TS]

  to not have my photos tagged [TS]

  particularly you know what I'm lying in [TS]

  bed at night sending naked texts out to [TS]

  friends in Europe when you break into [TS]

  the White House you know I don't want [TS]

  like that tagged exactly what up [TS]

  but then i'll click on the map program [TS]

  now why would I be doing that right if I [TS]

  didn't want right to know if I didn't [TS]

  want the map to like serve me here by [TS]

  knowing where i am and you know and the [TS]

  idea that at that point the thing pops [TS]

  up and says you need to you what you [TS]

  can't turn that on from here you need to [TS]

  now go back to your settings and enable [TS]

  location services and then come back [TS]

  here right and you're standing on a [TS]

  street corner and pouring down raining [TS]

  right exactly and then after exactly the [TS]

  scenario we're talking about and it's [TS]

  just like a the that somebody hasn't [TS]

  thought that through that if you click [TS]

  on map like let's just assume that [TS]

  location services and it is enabled like [TS]

  uh the night that the point zero one [TS]

  percent of the time that I go on into [TS]

  maps and just want to see like where's [TS]

  the 17th a tourism mole in Paris who you [TS]

  know i would like to see that on in my [TS]

  map program rather than googling it its [TS]

  that's negligible compared to the number [TS]

  of times when I'm in a hurry and I'm [TS]

  like oh where is that place you know I'm [TS]

  within to love using it really as a [TS]

  traditional atlas in that instance i'm [TS]

  using it look we're a thing is that [TS]

  regard to where you are right now [TS]

  I do that sometimes like chef the Faroe [TS]

  Islands I wonder how many natural water [TS]

  sources they're all in the parallel i [TS]

  wonder if i can see them from my map [TS]

  program it'll be able to be you know [TS]

  there's a lot of i mean i don't i don't [TS]

  flip through atlases anymore like I once [TS]

  did my whole life and so all i have is [TS]

  this little black box that comes to bed [TS]

  with me every night and I just get to [TS]

  flip through it it may require updating [TS]

  but there is in iOS 8 just for what it's [TS]

  worth Chancellor key so we let me if I [TS]

  don't see something out there is [TS]

  actually way to go on to privacy and [TS]

  then location services and it's kinda [TS]

  it's kinda cool [TS]

  you always have the ability to turn the [TS]

  location to never and then depending on [TS]

  the app usually your other choice is use [TS]

  location while i'm using it or use it [TS]

  all the time so that's kinda cool but [TS]

  that was just another is granularity to [TS]

  shutting it off if you want just never I [TS]

  mean I have most of mindset to never [TS]

  because I'm like you know why [TS]

  is this drawing program that my kid uses [TS]

  want that one of my location mnoi just [TS]

  to see how many you can do this with its [TS]

  kind of creepy always never those are my [TS]

  options [TS]

  well also while using so if you go in [TS]

  this case I got a chrome the browser and [TS]

  it says the location access never or [TS]

  just while using the app so that that's [TS]

  an upgrade because right now on when I [TS]

  go to privacy I just have always know [TS]

  while using the app hello some of them [TS]

  have that some of them do [TS]

  yeah so that should help a little bit [TS]

  thank you John siracusa for your [TS]

  constant yelling at merlin homicide [TS]

  I satisfied with your care and this in [TS]

  this instance you have forced Merlin to [TS]

  do a thing then and as you have Merlin [TS]

  has showed dinosaur John know but listen [TS]

  i want to i want to also commiserate [TS]

  because you know as I don't think it's [TS]

  transparently obvious to people what [TS]

  kinds of things you should flip on for [TS]

  wear and it does have an impact on your [TS]

  battery life and on your to some extent [TS]

  your privacy right well I'm like it look [TS]

  at any any service you sign up for the [TS]

  web [TS]

  the first thing i do when i set up for [TS]

  anything goes straight to the settings [TS]

  and straight to profile where I am [TS]

  increasingly not even surprised anymore [TS]

  when it's saying make everything public [TS]

  you know you just gotta go in there and [TS]

  go it was just you know you I don't [TS]

  really want my want all my information I [TS]

  don't wanna be accessible i don't want [TS]

  the email i'm saying is really is buyer [TS]

  beware at this point where you've got to [TS]

  go in and make sure that your ducks in a [TS]

  row with those things [TS]

  yeah yeah it is buyer beware well I'm [TS]

  the thing is you talk about battery life [TS]

  yeah my it's my psychic better little [TS]

  battery life [TS]

  that is always always always always [TS]

  agents it's always on three percent and [TS]

  I'm afraid that that that it's gonna [TS]

  shut off its I'm afraid that my battery [TS]

  life is gonna shut me down at fifteen [TS]

  percent which are used to do before i [TS]

  got the upgrade [TS]

  yeah and I don't want to you know [TS]

  actually lately I've had a surprising [TS]

  amount of energy and it's because I'm [TS]

  I'm undergoing a forced program of [TS]

  energy i can't wait to hear about this [TS]

  well you know what i mean i got it's [TS]

  just like okay you you have to show up [TS]

  yeah when you have stuff to do you just [TS]

  have to have you you find reservoirs of [TS]

  energy that that prior would have seemed [TS]

  inaccessible yeah i'm and and and it's [TS]

  always that feeling you know that [TS]

  feeling when you're like crusting a [TS]

  mountain range or above the tree line [TS]

  and you know over that Ridge there's a [TS]

  little lake and you just got to get [TS]

  there but you're really tired you have [TS]

  to find that energy to you know to push [TS]

  up / and then it's downhill to the [TS]

  little lake it helps to know there's [TS]

  something there though [TS]

  yeah right we're trying to use every [TS]

  part of the time Buffalo it helps a lot [TS]

  to know that that [TS]

  oh I just don't need to get through the [TS]

  rest of my life I need to get through [TS]

  this morning [TS]

  you know what I mean yeah right and that [TS]

  and so often the problem of living a [TS]

  life like mine was formerly that it was [TS]

  always a false horizon you know always a [TS]

  false summit like you're coming up the [TS]

  trail and you're like I can see light [TS]

  through the trees i'm at the summit and [TS]

  you get when you get to that use you [TS]

  crest that Ridge and you're like oh it's [TS]

  just a ridge i'm not at the summit like [TS]

  then you see watch the mountain go up [TS]

  and played apples tell me to go here on [TS]

  top of the windmill this isn't my are [TS]

  not having a meeting here I'm Chamber of [TS]

  Commerce is tapping their feet are so [TS]

  impressive to hear that was one of the [TS]

  things I was most kind of quietly [TS]

  concerned about was like what a huge [TS]

  adjustment [TS]

  I mean that's it sounds like i'm calling [TS]

  you lazy which is not what I mean to be [TS]

  saying which is that knowing that you [TS]

  are a night owl [TS]

  let's put it that way you you tell you [TS]

  in my experience given the options you [TS]

  tend to prefer to do a lot of your stuff [TS]

  at night [TS]

  yeah it's a lifestyle well it's [TS]

  interesting how it's [TS]

  just like when you change the job and [TS]

  you're doing something else and then [TS]

  that becomes the new thing that you're [TS]

  doing it was always hard for me to get [TS]

  up in the morning but now I have things [TS]

  to do so i'm getting up in the morning [TS]

  and then you settle into a thing where [TS]

  it's like oh it's no harder for me to [TS]

  get up in the morning then it is anybody [TS]

  else right [TS]

  it's just that the problem isn't getting [TS]

  up in the morning the problem is it's [TS]

  always hard to get up when the only [TS]

  thing motivating you to do your work is [TS]

  you all I know that that's talk about [TS]

  going up the ridge you get there and [TS]

  you're like his there's nothing here [TS]

  this is not what I I didn't do these [TS]

  10,000 other things in order to be here [TS]

  and like you know the right is not there [TS]

  the the paintings not there whatever it [TS]

  is right [TS]

  yeah yeah I i totally agree the thing i [TS]

  feel like i am going through like my [TS]

  wife is working more she's changed jobs [TS]

  and is working a lot more just great and [TS]

  I'm very happy to and really enjoy my [TS]

  time with the kids so it is more like [TS]

  especially in the afternoons you know it [TS]

  is it's like I maybe like you I got used [TS]

  to having a certain number of [TS]

  constraints [TS]

  yeah but you know there would be a few [TS]

  constraints in the day I think for me [TS]

  work is challenging especially somebody [TS]

  who loves to sleep is to have the [TS]

  constraint of their stuff that needs to [TS]

  happen up to a certain point at night [TS]

  especially if you want to have a social [TS]

  life or whatever but you know even just [TS]

  like getting the the bath has to happen [TS]

  every night whether we feel like it or [TS]

  not like you know we can only tolerate [TS]

  the kitchen being dirty for so long you [TS]

  don't mean you want to be an animal so [TS]

  on the one hand there's the stuff that [TS]

  has to happen tonight and it is the [TS]

  stuff that really needs to happen at a [TS]

  certain point in the morning extremely [TS]

  what rare that my kid wakes up later [TS]

  than six so that problem is though then [TS]

  like the funeral saying you feel that in [TS]

  between and then you get look up on the [TS]

  complaining I'm really actually not i [TS]

  got I just invented a new phrase i call [TS]

  the grumble brag with which is when you [TS]

  are when you claim that you're not [TS]

  complaining about something while you're [TS]

  totally complaining about it haha but [TS]

  anyway when you get enough of those [TS]

  little waystations it's why it's so hard [TS]

  to have multiple jobs right yeah it [TS]

  becomes so much overhead and so much [TS]

  like stress about all the little [TS]

  checkpoint you have to get to in this [TS]

  little rally do you let me ask you a [TS]

  question because i was thinking about [TS]

  your book [TS]

  the other day just as i was driving down [TS]

  the street I was like Merlin's book [TS]

  yeah Merlin's book was a thing that I [TS]

  thought about a lot while you were [TS]

  making it and then you know thought [TS]

  about it a lot while you were not making [TS]

  his deciding not to make it and like do [TS]

  you ever fall prey to thinking about [TS]

  that [TS]

  what is probably quite a pile of writing [TS]

  that you did write and think like that's [TS]

  something I'm gonna repurpose for [TS]

  something or that's something I'm [TS]

  eventually gonna do something else with [TS]

  or guided every just happy just buried [TS]

  it to be honest it is in many ways [TS]

  incredibly painful in a number of ways [TS]

  it's still still it's difficult to talk [TS]

  about because on the one hand it's [TS]

  painful that this was something i was [TS]

  very not just passionate about but felt [TS]

  really uniquely capable of doing [TS]

  I had a lot of thoughts I had no there's [TS]

  no dearth of thoughts in my head about [TS]

  what to what to do and I had a lot to [TS]

  say I produced a lot of words i didn't [TS]

  love that many of the words and i'm [TS]

  actually going to settle this before but [TS]

  I'm going somewhere with this way the [TS]

  the part that makes it looks super [TS]

  painful though it was we get to get into [TS]

  the sunk cost fallacy stuff where I [TS]

  start thinking about what that did in my [TS]

  family for so long like for so long my [TS]

  wife was just unbelievably supportive [TS]

  and said yes to anything I ask for until [TS]

  I started to really like honestly abused [TS]

  it but like there were times like how [TS]

  long does it take me to learn i'm not [TS]

  going to write anything good and or [TS]

  substantial after seven o'clock at night [TS]

  and yes i would happen because i'm so [TS]

  stressed out about that i would happily [TS]

  leave her with all of the household [TS]

  duties while I go out and sit there and [TS]

  feel terrible about myself that's all [TS]

  that's that was all very difficult i [TS]

  still feel em failures too strong of war [TS]

  but i certainly feel like a success and [TS]

  how that whole thing went the other big [TS]

  part of this which you didn't ask about [TS]

  this but the other big part of this is [TS]

  just how much the landscape has changed [TS]

  which we've talked about this i mean is [TS]

  true for musicians but it's really true [TS]

  for all kinds of what will generally [TS]

  call content creators the evenin the [TS]

  last year that's changed let alone the [TS]

  last five years so I mean on the one [TS]

  hand i had a lot of stuff you know [TS]

  probably close to a hundred thousand [TS]

  words of words i started out with 40,000 [TS]

  just off [TS]

  website that need to be added a lot of [TS]

  words but I never really got it to be [TS]

  the thing i wanted and it's not even the [TS]

  thing as always feeling this pressure to [TS]

  make it a kind of about email even [TS]

  though it didn't have to be an email [TS]

  more and more that felt like such a [TS]

  millstone to me so it's not like i have [TS]

  that much I want to do with that the [TS]

  ideas in there are still very powerful [TS]

  and very lively to me just now that [TS]

  comes out in podcast the thing the thing [TS]

  though ultimately makes it something I'm [TS]

  not trying to repurpose or really [TS]

  explore I don't know I'm I would not [TS]

  rule out writing a book at some point [TS]

  but I writing anything right now is a [TS]

  really tough racket mean it's a very [TS]

  tough racket and i think that the [TS]

  industry has changed business has [TS]

  changed and i think the audience has [TS]

  changed so honestly the kinds of things [TS]

  that people will pay not that much money [TS]

  for our things I don't necessarily want [TS]

  to write I don't want to write listicles [TS]

  i don't i don't want to produce dozens [TS]

  of kindle books you know and it's not [TS]

  what it's really if this was true in [TS]

  2009 but it's really true now that it [TS]

  and something Hodgins said when he was [TS]

  saying that this is a good idea to do [TS]

  and he was right [TS]

  is that you know this is how you get [TS]

  invited on the fresh air like this is [TS]

  how this is your jumping off point to a [TS]

  bigger thing right is like once you're [TS]

  an author it changes everything [TS]

  yeah but it wasn't even that I was [TS]

  looking for it was just being able to [TS]

  feel like the time and energy and stress [TS]

  that i had invested in that I wanted to [TS]

  turn into something really great and [TS]

  timeless maybe that was too much [TS]

  pressure to put on myself but it just [TS]

  became too much and now today like you [TS]

  know the whole inbox zero thing is like [TS]

  really just the whole concept is so [TS]

  annoying and then willful [TS]

  misunderstanding of what i was trying to [TS]

  say struggling to say yeah makes it a [TS]

  little bit dead in the water to me but [TS]

  honestly that the thing as I stand here [TS]

  today yes i still feel terrible about [TS]

  how that went for everybody involved but [TS]

  it is also a thing of like you know all [TS]

  things being equal if you're a reality [TS]

  TV star having somebody ghostwriter book [TS]

  is not a bad idea that somebody who [TS]

  wants to sweat every single word of [TS]

  something that will probably take nine [TS]

  months to a year to do I guess that's [TS]

  tough work for what you can expect in [TS]

  return today [TS]

  yeah yeah that setup is that I answered [TS]

  that fairly yeah you did [TS]

  i mean i-i think about it a lot in a [TS]

  different way now because I because I'm [TS]

  I've been reflecting on the last period [TS]

  of my life which is kind of you know [TS]

  it's the wisdom of retrospect you look [TS]

  back and say oh actually the last period [TS]

  of my life which seemed to go by and I [TS]

  blink actually was two distinct periods [TS]

  and it was filled with these two sort of [TS]

  different as you as you as you a portion [TS]

  your life into eras yeah by looking back [TS]

  and saying like which in my experience [TS]

  takes several years to realize what area [TS]

  that really was [TS]

  yeah right and at some of that is [TS]

  happening now and you know it a lot of [TS]

  the projects that i have pursued over [TS]

  the course of my whole adult life but in [TS]

  particular the last handful of years and [TS]

  they didn't come all the way to fruition [TS]

  I and that there was a period of sitting [TS]

  and being very excited about the about a [TS]

  television show i was thinking of making [TS]

  when I drove across America and went to [TS]

  went to little depressed cities and [TS]

  tried to identify it there arc from the [TS]

  time that they were founded through the [TS]

  time with cyber school and I totally see [TS]

  you doing that than I ever describe this [TS]

  to you I don't remember you describing [TS]

  this but that actually is like that [TS]

  sounds like forgive my saying that [TS]

  sounds like the work you were made for [TS]

  it really would be a really good at that [TS]

  I was super excited about you know you [TS]

  and and and he'd come in to put tipsy [TS]

  and you'd say like here's what here's [TS]

  what this land looked like when there [TS]

  was an Indian settlement here and here's [TS]

  why the here's why the settlers chose it [TS]

  because it was a great place to build a [TS]

  mill and here's what they milled and [TS]

  then there was a period of great [TS]

  prosperity when they figured out how to [TS]

  out to you know what this this was the [TS]

  place where they invented the tie tack [TS]

  and the tie tack blew up and everybody [TS]

  in the world needed one and this was tie [TS]

  tack central and I sack boom you know [TS]

  that's why they're all these beautiful [TS]

  uh beaux-arts mansions up on this one [TS]

  particular hill that they call founders [TS]

  hill and and then world war one came and [TS]

  you know and I could be telling this [TS]

  story in both at both video but also [TS]

  animation and and historical photographs [TS]

  and you know just kind of do this [TS]

  sweeping [TS]

  a rama of a place and then say then you [TS]

  know us manufacturing decline looks like [TS]

  cosmos but hyperlocal right right and I [TS]

  mean that sounds really silly but he's [TS]

  so great and look at second and Tyson no [TS]

  deGrasse Tyson alright they're both so [TS]

  great at taking these complex ideas and [TS]

  making it something that not only kind [TS]

  of kind of understand but you find [TS]

  incredibly interesting by being very [TS]

  specific but limited like you're not [TS]

  going to cover everything like in that [TS]

  your case you're not you're reading the [TS]

  encyclopedia for pickup see it's more [TS]

  like saying what you taught me that I'm [TS]

  so grateful for is like you can just [TS]

  look at the complexion of this land [TS]

  look at where this water is look at [TS]

  where that hill is look at how until [TS]

  they had promised ridiculous you [TS]

  couldn't live up on that part of the [TS]

  hill that you know yeah y-you're I think [TS]

  you're awfully good at that and and it's [TS]

  exciting because once you once you open [TS]

  your mind to that way of seeing you can [TS]

  look at your own town that way it [TS]

  doesn't you know you wouldn't need a TV [TS]

  show to do it you can like like you say [TS]

  there's a reason that somebody planted [TS]

  their their flag here and it's usually [TS]

  because that was where the water was and [TS]

  that was where the that's what was a [TS]

  defensible position and the city grew [TS]

  this way and that way you can tell where [TS]

  it is like that hope that whole mission [TS]

  i was on when I was on tour with Harvey [TS]

  danger where every time every town on [TS]

  the east coast and in the southeast in [TS]

  particular we pull in the bus would stop [TS]

  open up the door and the tour manager [TS]

  would say well you guys got four hours [TS]

  to kill until soundcheck and I would [TS]

  walk up the bus am going to find the [TS]

  Civil War graveyard gonna find the Civil [TS]

  War graveyard that is in every one of [TS]

  these towns and invariably where it was [TS]

  would have been the outskirts of town in [TS]

  1870 without having to look it up on a [TS]

  city by City basis you can get a pretty [TS]

  good reckoning [TS]

  yeah you just know like okay I know I [TS]

  know that it's not on the outskirts of [TS]

  town now right because there's no [TS]

  there's no town back east that has grown [TS]

  none but it's but in a lot of cases it's [TS]

  kind of in the decaying inner ring and [TS]

  then you find the civil work graveyard [TS]

  know that you kind of can see then that [TS]

  everything built outside of it [TS]

  was built after 1870 and everything [TS]

  inside of it at least that was that [TS]

  those were the city limits and Sons like [TS]

  a little a little clue you can mostly [TS]

  count on you right and and and it's [TS]

  different in every place and you know [TS]

  and the the Yankee graveyards are very [TS]

  different than the southern ones and and [TS]

  it was just a kind of little game to [TS]

  play to pass the time that that got me [TS]

  out and walking but I learned a lot by [TS]

  just kind of seeking this this little [TS]

  depression in the ground anyway so that [TS]

  was a that was a television show that I [TS]

  that I really wanted to to make and got [TS]

  excited about and then I was like well [TS]

  of course we're going to buy a GMC RV to [TS]

  drive around the country and and I [TS]

  started talking to people and people in [TS]

  television and they were like well [TS]

  what's the hook [TS]

  I was like well but hook is that it's [TS]

  really a cool idea because we hook is [TS]

  usually I think it has that case like [TS]

  that because usually you're already [TS]

  really famous in some other way right [TS]

  now from TV or elsewhere you know I mean [TS]

  like Anthony Bourdain's that his name is [TS]

  a show like that that's like better than [TS]

  it should be because he's a very [TS]

  interesting guy would have gotten that [TS]

  show if you weren't already like a [TS]

  celebrity chef probably not and that's [TS]

  the thing people kept saying to me like [TS]

  well if you had written a book about the [TS]

  American town and I'm like right i mean [TS]

  this would kind of be the book i would [TS]

  write about the American town this video [TS]

  show and then people would like well i [TS]

  mean if you were like it if you were [TS]

  anthony kiedis I'm like well yeah I mean [TS]

  if I was anthony kiedis I'd be happy in [TS]

  a hot tub in vegas right i mean i [TS]

  wouldn't be doing this and he's a nice [TS]

  guy but it's all public images someone [TS]

  suffering only i love it too hey don't [TS]

  forget about him there but but no shirt [TS]

  now but then they were like well what if [TS]

  you know what if what if you got to that [TS]

  town and then you found the cool [TS]

  artisanal uh like mustard factory that [TS]

  the pic the mustache kids had built in [TS]

  the old abandoned hotel I was like yeah [TS]

  I'd be into that let's start sound like [TS]

  a different show though who different [TS]

  channel 2 100 now it's like if so then I [TS]

  started following that stream and I'm [TS]

  like what if I went to all the depressed [TS]

  towns in America and found them the [TS]

  artisanal must mustard factory that the [TS]

  mustache kids had built I was like [TS]

  that's an interesting show [TS]

  it's not quite at em right in my [TS]

  wheelhouse it's not yet i would i'm i'm [TS]

  happy to interact with those people and [TS]

  that would that would be a fun [TS]

  exploratory like but a lot of those [TS]

  towns don't have an artisanal must [TS]

  mustard factory a lot of those towns [TS]

  just have artisanal crank getting [TS]

  manufactured and you know like the town [TS]

  hasn't found its its footing yet and so [TS]

  that the idea can be evolving and [TS]

  eventually it just maybe this is [TS]

  somebody actually talk to somebody about [TS]

  I talk to a lot of people about it and [TS]

  and the and the and eventually it was [TS]

  like the consensus was the classic thing [TS]

  that that that my good friend christine [TS]

  connor said to me one time which is that [TS]

  people come all the time and say I don't [TS]

  watch TV but I've got a great idea for a [TS]

  television show right and she said the [TS]

  problem is that Pete the people who do [TS]

  watch TV do not want people who don't [TS]

  watch TV to make television for them and [TS]

  us she's the reason she's in the corner [TS]

  office that's really she's so smart [TS]

  right [TS]

  yeah and and so so what the program that [TS]

  I wanted to make was exactly the type of [TS]

  thing that would get me to watch TV but [TS]

  that's not what you know that that isn't [TS]

  half of the type of program that the [TS]

  executives approve and there was no [TS]

  component of my show where where there [TS]

  was no sex tape component no one got [TS]

  into a hair-pulling fight with anybody [TS]

  else there wasn't you know I never said [TS]

  BAM right and I didn't you know and I [TS]

  never added a like bacon seasoning [TS]

  vacancies and he's ready to it it [TS]

  wouldn't be expressly to make people cry [TS]

  which has a certain appeal [TS]

  not celebrity based strictly speaking [TS]

  it's not it's not emotionally [TS]

  base it's not about making you feel [TS]

  better or more competent but there's so [TS]

  many non fiction TV shows that are about [TS]

  making you feel like you're a chef even [TS]

  though you're mostly someone who watches [TS]

  TV and I think what it what it is is [TS]

  that PBS used to fund that kind of thing [TS]

  and doesn't as years ago [TS]

  yeah and there and all the things that [TS]

  came into the televisions fear that [TS]

  seemed like little PBS's like like the [TS]

  discovery channel and the National [TS]

  Geographic Channel and all these things [TS]

  you know the smithsonian channel where [TS]

  you're like oh my god it's a world of [TS]

  public television and then every one of [TS]

  those channels devolved away from like [TS]

  National Geographic is just about cute [TS]

  tiger babies decided but that should all [TS]

  be so telling to think about Bravo and [TS]

  ediscovery i'm not super familiar with [TS]

  National Geographic that was kind of [TS]

  after my time we take any of those [TS]

  things they all started out with the [TS]

  aspiration of being a i think i would [TS]

  suggest that but I mean with the [TS]

  aspiration of having sort of a [TS]

  high-minded calling like any had some [TS]

  really nerdy they would show opera on oh [TS]

  yeah [TS]

  Marisnick off right exactly it's the [TS]

  arts and entertainment and ditto ditto [TS]

  for bravo and you know there was a time [TS]

  before the advent of you know shark week [TS]

  when you could really see I don't know [TS]

  and I'm not gonna let grumbling what I'm [TS]

  saying is like once again let's just say [TS]

  that the market has changed i found [TS]

  something that was more palatable and [TS]

  profitable that guy that announcer for [TS]

  Bravo that's just like all the Bravo the [TS]

  top 10 greatest falls like I remember [TS]

  watching this channel where it was like [TS]

  masterpiece theater [TS]

  uh-huh and it now it's just like on [TS]

  bravo we're going to go into your closet [TS]

  and find all the dirtiest shit we can [TS]

  find our orders you like to cook [TS]

  shirtless on motorcycles but so so but [TS]

  but that the time i spent thinking about [TS]

  that television show and plotting it out [TS]

  and imagining it and Imagineering it [TS]

  let's be honest and the engineer and [TS]

  engine even and then really trying to [TS]

  think who the market was who I could who [TS]

  would how much it would cost to produce [TS]

  those episodes and whether or not i [TS]

  could sell fund those are internet fund [TS]

  them what if those episodes were only 15 [TS]

  minutes long but if they were 10 minutes [TS]

  long what if i sold them to museums [TS]

  right what if that was the thing that [TS]

  you when you walked into the PFC history [TS]

  museum that this video played and down [TS]

  and that was a thing that I could make a [TS]

  case to the national museum association [TS]

  that I would go around the country and [TS]

  do these these cool videos about these [TS]

  different places like a you know is [TS]

  churning all these different ideas and [TS]

  in the end none of that stuff got made [TS]

  and in a sense like not not yet [TS]

  it happened right but but I can't think [TS]

  of that as like a failure or a lot or [TS]

  lost time because I really worked on it [TS]

  and it didn't come to fruition but but i [TS]

  do think about the last five years of my [TS]

  life as this period where i was i was [TS]

  doing that a lot i was like what am I [TS]

  gonna use part of your like it's always [TS]

  when you work on your own or you do [TS]

  creative stuff an element of your job is [TS]

  always figuring out what to do next is [TS]

  to acknowledge work in general but I [TS]

  think when you are creative person and [TS]

  I'm not going to get creative because [TS]

  everyone should stop saying that when [TS]

  your creative person and you make stuff [TS]

  and your output is how you are evaluated [TS]

  huge part of what you do is thinking [TS]

  about what to do next and how but you [TS]

  don't really get points for that [TS]

  understandably right you don't you don't [TS]

  get credit for all the Opera you didn't [TS]

  write and and if I had when I first came [TS]

  up with this idea if I had quickly [TS]

  written a breezy book about the life and [TS]

  death of American cities and had like [TS]

  gotten that in the book pipeline and had [TS]

  gone around and done fresh air and and [TS]

  morning talk show circuit about like [TS]

  you've got her if if the book at had [TS]

  support right gotta read this book it's [TS]

  all about life and death American city [TS]

  that's where we're at right now and and [TS]

  you know these artisanal mustard [TS]

  factories aren't going to make [TS]

  themselves [TS]

  you know and then went because that's [TS]

  what David Rees effectively did he made [TS]

  that book about pencil sharpening that [TS]

  was very much his own personal private [TS]

  world his own personal private joke on [TS]

  himself and and world that he was [TS]

  exploring and then converted that into a [TS]

  television show and then he was in a new [TS]

  world of of struggle and strife he found [TS]

  a way I so interested in this actually [TS]

  he found a way tho to guess I would say [TS]

  take it and turn it he figured out a way [TS]

  to make it not obvious [TS]

  so on the one hand you okay all lost [TS]

  people people buy lots of books about [TS]

  sharpening pencils well not accurate [TS]

  like so he found a way to essentially I [TS]

  mean I've never even read the whole book [TS]

  but from watching the TV show my sense [TS]

  is what you're really getting to is that [TS]

  he has a very interesting approach to to [TS]

  thinking about life and experience and [TS]

  expertise and that applies to stuff that [TS]

  you might be taken for granted so it's [TS]

  not a show about sharpening pencils and [TS]

  it's it's it's it's kind of secretly a [TS]

  show about curiosity and science science [TS]

  science on some level but it's not it [TS]

  isn't like educational it doesn't feel [TS]

  like you're taking your medicine your [TS]

  menu and what makes it so intriguing is [TS]

  how how involved he is and how [TS]

  interested he is at least on screen in [TS]

  in exploring something that you think [TS]

  you really understand it doesn't come [TS]

  off turns out it doesn't feel like I [TS]

  said it doesn't feel like medicine [TS]

  that's that's his success there he did [TS]

  find a way to Vegas with help from [TS]

  people like Christine like figured a way [TS]

  to turn that [TS]

  yeah and the amazing thing about David [TS]

  and this is the great thing about Adam [TS]

  Savage and it's a thing that that that [TS]

  in a way i have in common with them is [TS]

  that both of those guys are still [TS]

  totally into an amazed by the things [TS]

  that the the things that they discover [TS]

  in a very childlike way [TS]

  yeah good examples I mean I go out I i [TS]

  spent a lot of time traveling with David [TS]

  and he is as cynical as the next guy [TS]

  about [TS]

  the world right but if you lift up a [TS]

  rock and there's a frog under it [TS]

  David is literally jumping for joy and [TS]

  cannot believe that there that he found [TS]

  a frog and we were in Ethiopia together [TS]

  and we've found this swimming hole out [TS]

  in the internet like a nature preserve [TS]

  and the local kids were climbing up this [TS]

  and probably tall tree and jumping into [TS]

  the swimming hole and David could not [TS]

  get his clothes off fast enough and I [TS]

  was standing there like and and jonathan [TS]

  coulton to and saying like uh uh David [TS]

  and he's already like well any claims of [TS]

  history and he gets up in it and he [TS]

  realizes how high it is and he's like oh [TS]

  but he's standing there in his underwear [TS]

  and there are you know 25 kids cheering [TS]

  him on and he's gotta make the jump and [TS]

  i'm on the shore like look man here's [TS]

  the you know there's one spot in this [TS]

  whole that I mean these kids are always [TS]

  90 pounds and they can jump off that [TS]

  tree but there's one spot in the [TS]

  swimming hole that a 210 pound American [TS]

  guys going to land and not impale [TS]

  himself and it's right here [TS]

  do not go anywhere aim here and he jumps [TS]

  and he makes the landing and he pops up [TS]

  and it's just like it's the most [TS]

  beautiful thing you ever saw [TS]

  I am never in a million years do that [TS]

  for like 50 reasons [TS]

  well and the reason that you wouldn't do [TS]

  it is that two days later the Giardia [TS]

  that went up his nose and his but when [TS]

  he jumped in that pool caused him to be [TS]

  projectile vomiting and pooping [TS]

  everywhere now while we were you know [TS]

  like a staying in a single the locals [TS]

  for you were acclimated to it [TS]

  oh well you know or or they always have [TS]

  a low-level case of giardia but but um [TS]

  but David was not acclimated to it and [TS]

  we were then on a we were then on a navy [TS]

  base and trying to find some some cure [TS]

  because David couldn't couldn't walk 15 [TS]

  feet without needing to run to the [TS]

  downtown Miami and but that is the kind [TS]

  of you know that's the kind of actual [TS]

  like excitement about life and Adam [TS]

  Savage is the same thing I think way [TS]

  it's just like you just build a scale [TS]

  model of the of [TS]

  the hedge maze from the shining Why What [TS]

  Why Why What Why and it's just like what [TS]

  do you mean why have you seen it in [TS]

  appointee applied people who make an [TS]

  iphone app that says yoga people but [TS]

  then you look at him and like what's [TS]

  that they're dealing with the bushes [TS]

  like that what is that like what good is [TS]

  this he's like what good is it it look [TS]

  at it it's it it sells itself and it's [TS]

  like wow you mean you know like Leon [TS]

  Christian is on board one hundred [TS]

  percent but that like a normal person [TS]

  would have no would have no idea that [TS]

  that was made just than that everything [TS]

  he makes including his TV show is made [TS]

  just out of the spirit of like total [TS]

  love and total childlike excitement and [TS]

  I have that same quality about the [TS]

  things that i love and i think i think a [TS]

  lot of people have that quality about [TS]

  the things that they well and that you [TS]

  know and it's hard to sell its hard to [TS]

  sell that excitement about like tipsy [TS]

  have you ever looked at it in an atlas [TS]

  it's it do you know where the freshwater [TS]

  is never gonna make it to the first [TS]

  commercial break [TS]

  no except that these other nerds have [TS]

  managed you know like that and Adams had [TS]

  the advantage of like we're gonna blow [TS]

  shit up on an old airport [TS]

  yeah and whatever David's advantage was [TS]

  it was he just invented out of whole [TS]

  cloth right yeah and and part of that [TS]

  advantage was the pure in probability of [TS]

  a guy writing a book about pencils and [TS]

  but so I'm still you know i'm still [TS]

  turning that and you obviously have been [TS]

  trying to write my book about my walk [TS]

  across Europe for for 15 years now and [TS]

  the last in iteration of it i sent it [TS]

  off to a guy in New York City and it's a [TS]

  hundred plus thousand words too and he [TS]

  you know he was a fan of our program he [TS]

  was a he was a big big editor at a at a [TS]

  reputable legendary publishing house and [TS]

  he was like I'm totally into this i [TS]

  really think it's great but these [TS]

  hundred thousand words are really more [TS]

  like notes for a book no on the last [TS]

  thing you want to hear [TS]

  I was like notes for a book I was hoping [TS]

  you were going to say they just need a [TS]

  little bit of you know you just need to [TS]

  run government is covering a UPC code [TS]

  yeah i was i was getting ready to put [TS]

  the author photo know and that you know [TS]

  and that was just like right notes for a [TS]

  book and the and the world has changed [TS]

  so much in that 15 years there's so much [TS]

  of that writing is about is about how [TS]

  those places were in 1999 and they're [TS]

  not like that anymore and really to just [TS]

  different to be authentic in some ways [TS]

  you have to really rethink the entire [TS]

  approach [TS]

  yes because you've changed so much since [TS]

  then right and and i think the only way [TS]

  to do it now is that some at some point [TS]

  10 years from now i go retrace my steps [TS]

  and then they then that whole book that [TS]

  i wrote were they they were notes for a [TS]

  book like here's a walk that I did when [TS]

  I was 30 and I never finished the book [TS]

  so when i was 16 i went and did it again [TS]

  this time on a bike that sounds like a [TS]

  documentary and on the bike and the bike [TS]

  is actually motorized it's called a [TS]

  motorcycle who and the motorcycle [TS]

  actually is a car and it's actually a [TS]

  plane and I flew over the I flew over [TS]

  the place that i walked in i wrote my [TS]

  reflections on that over a long weekend [TS]

  ha you got me [TS]

  don't forget no go I you can be really [TS]

  thinking about something now it is this [TS]

  as sounds kind of karma sucks and I [TS]

  don't mean it to be the way that you [TS]

  were describing you know talking about [TS]

  like trying to get you your concept for [TS]

  TV show on some of those places and then [TS]

  saying that you know people don't want [TS]

  to watch TV from people who don't watch [TS]

  TV [TS]

  yeah there's something in that is really [TS]

  painful and interesting to me because it [TS]

  leads to this larger point which is you [TS]

  know how little we each ultimately [TS]

  understand about the industries were not [TS]

  in right so you know you think you've [TS]

  read lots of books so you think of [TS]

  yourself as somebody who's who could be [TS]

  an author like a published author not [TS]

  just a writer but published some who [TS]

  sells their words for a living and [TS]

  periodically and again and again and [TS]

  again or you think of yourself as [TS]

  something like oh my god I've watched [TS]

  and read so much science fiction uh I [TS]

  could I could easily make a science [TS]

  fiction TV show and get it on netflix [TS]

  everybody's doing it nowadays but then [TS]

  once you actually meet people inside the [TS]

  industry it ends up you rely feel like [TS]

  you realize how a how little you really [TS]

  understand about that industry like we [TS]

  all have these gases and we've read [TS]

  things we've read books but in that case [TS]

  we're like you go like we haven't liked [TS]

  for Jon Jon's show hills and rivers [TS]

  where he goes around towards the great [TS]

  cities of American discusses their [TS]

  complexion like okay who do we think [TS]

  that is for and like who would watch [TS]

  that but also like who would advertise [TS]

  on that show right cause of the problem [TS]

  with the show like that i could see that [TS]

  being a huge disconnect that you know [TS]

  you want young people to watch it but [TS]

  it's probably like forward that would [TS]

  want to buy an ad on there or Buick or [TS]

  whatever anything make Buicks but I [TS]

  don't know I just think that's I think [TS]

  that's part of it is like it makes the [TS]

  can feel depressed it's too strong a [TS]

  word but can feel like it keeps you down [TS]

  because you start to feel like such a [TS]

  dumbass [TS]

  yeah he fundamentally don't understand [TS]

  this industry and then then finally that [TS]

  point like why do you imagine that there [TS]

  are there are by tens of thousands of [TS]

  people hundreds of thousands of people [TS]

  working all these images [TS]

  why don't they have TV shows they [TS]

  already understand how to make TV you [TS]

  like do you think you're actually that [TS]

  much better at making a movie than [TS]

  somebody who's been like an assistant [TS]

  director [TS]

  yeah and yet but they're yeoman they do [TS]

  their job [TS]

  it's just that we look at that go i can [TS]

  make the Avengers better or whatever [TS]

  it's like well you sure this was a lot [TS]

  of people working on that is take right [TS]

  well as anybody staffed up some of a big [TS]

  part of that it is the it's the classic [TS]

  thing and I'm and I'm seeing it now it [TS]

  in my foray into politics which is that [TS]

  I'm i am encountering the entrenched [TS]

  class and they are saying what makes [TS]

  exactly that [TS]

  what makes you think that you can do [TS]

  this better then those of us who are who [TS]

  have only been doing this and have been [TS]

  doing this for a long time and they're [TS]

  absolutely right in the sense that it in [TS]

  this same exact sense that you just [TS]

  described and the only hope the only [TS]

  hope is that routinely there are people [TS]

  from outside all these spirits who [TS]

  come in with a with a good idea and are [TS]

  able to master the vernacular put [TS]

  together that the right team of smart [TS]

  people to help her and actually do make [TS]

  something new from outside and it [TS]

  happens infrequently enough but it is [TS]

  that but when it does happen it's expect [TS]

  so exciting to us that we you know that [TS]

  we miss apply the lesson and think wow [TS]

  you know that again like I could I could [TS]

  make the Avengers better by sitting why [TS]

  can't I be Elon Musk right why can't I [TS]

  be yeah it kind of isn't that kind of [TS]

  over 2 [TS]

  over 2 [TS]

  what about it is and and and and partly [TS]

  you know partly it is this kits the [TS]

  question of how what role does expertise [TS]

  and experience play in various jobs and [TS]

  in you know like pediatric brain surgery [TS]

  it's a factor right expertise is the [TS]

  whole game there is [TS]

  I mean the best pediatric brain surgeon [TS]

  and the worst pediatric brain surgeon [TS]

  between those two people there is [TS]

  inspiration probably is the factor right [TS]

  this person has that the best pediatric [TS]

  brain surgeon probably has incredible [TS]

  dexterity and has a natural physical [TS]

  gift and maybe also has inspiration but [TS]

  the worst pediatric brain surgeon who [TS]

  isn't merely incompetent right who isn't [TS]

  in jail or or or or committed [TS]

  malpractice but the you know the worst [TS]

  one who is still competent is still an [TS]

  incredible expert in their field right [TS]

  and in things like filmmaking and comedy [TS]

  writing and television producing I think [TS]

  it's much more it's much more likely [TS]

  that the people who have the expertise [TS]

  do have a knowledge base that's that's [TS]

  useful but they also are kind of [TS]

  gatekeepers in a way that that keep that [TS]

  it probably has a tendency to keep good [TS]

  ideas out more [TS]

  I mean and a lot of the people that that [TS]

  just that green light TV shows are [TS]

  producers who are who are timid and [TS]

  don't want to make a mistake and so they [TS]

  keep making the same show over and over [TS]

  and what they care about the TV even if [TS]

  they don't love every program they care [TS]

  about the process they well or that or [TS]

  they're in the process and you know [TS]

  it'sit's you see that the same way in [TS]

  politics that people get a long way in [TS]

  politics by being timid [TS]

  like don't don't if you don't step too [TS]

  far to the left or too far to the right [TS]

  keep your nose clean you make the right [TS]

  friends you know just keep your head [TS]

  down right they do care what is your [TS]

  advice to give you a public official but [TS]

  you might have to get next day they [TS]

  ultimately do care about the you know [TS]

  the something got them engage initially [TS]

  and then they are in the process which [TS]

  feels kind of like the military or a [TS]

  corporation you just you do what is done [TS]

  and you don't rock the boat and you get [TS]

  where you're going and I think a lot of [TS]

  people end up producers in television [TS]

  and they're not they don't all love it [TS]

  or even understand it but a lot of them [TS]

  are there because their brother was that [TS]

  you know the brother gave him a job and [TS]

  so so there are these are there are [TS]

  these forms that are different from [TS]

  pediatrics pediatric brain surgery but [TS]

  people who occupy those jobs would like [TS]

  you to think that it was equivalent to [TS]

  pediatric bro [TS]

  okay that makes sense right and it's [TS]

  like yeah oh you don't have the [TS]

  expertise to do this it's like well it's [TS]

  not it expertise isn't the entire game [TS]

  in a lot of these brackets I like what [TS]

  you're saying about expertise and [TS]

  experience and this is probably nested [TS]

  right in the middle of what you're [TS]

  saying but i would say for that to form [TS]

  a three-legged stool you got experience [TS]

  expertise and the third really obvious [TS]

  one is motivation because I think a lot [TS]

  of the reason that and then I don't [TS]

  notice I'm not saying inspiration i'm [TS]

  saying motivation like not only like [TS]

  what makes you want to do this what it's [TS]

  about you can even call it tastes and [TS]

  some of these like what is it that makes [TS]

  you want to be good at this and how do [TS]

  you evaluate how well it's going and [TS]

  what you need to do differently [TS]

  does that happen like a hundred percent [TS]

  intuitively because you so like in the [TS]

  case of like you said in show business [TS]

  maybe you were raised in a family that's [TS]

  just in your bones you know if you like [TS]

  Sofia Coppola like she's been around [TS]

  that so much that you know just getting [TS]

  a little out of this sounds really [TS]

  dismissive I don't mean to but like I [TS]

  think it's easy but it's certainly not [TS]

  as is a patently difficult if you're a [TS]

  kid in Oklahoma was only ever the [TS]

  biggest explosion they've had to the [TS]

  film industry is going to the cinema but [TS]

  that motivation the thing is that's the [TS]

  part a lot of people get wrong even with [TS]

  the experience and even [TS]

  it's hard to get the experience that [TS]

  brings you the expertise if you don't [TS]

  have the right motivation they all end [TS]

  up popping each other up and if your [TS]

  politics and you have the wrong [TS]

  motivation week with a recipe for [TS]

  disaster [TS]

  well yeah and the but I think what I [TS]

  think what also often happens is that [TS]

  people with the right motivation [TS]

  encounter a system a pre-existing system [TS]

  that they aren't able to navigate [TS]

  successfully and I think there are every [TS]

  year you see people run for office that [TS]

  seem like you know they're painted as [TS]

  kind of crackpots but they're really [TS]

  inspired to make a difference and they [TS]

  just they're painted as crackpots [TS]

  because they are able to navigate the to [TS]

  the to navigate the game and I mean we [TS]

  we see it in corporate life all the time [TS]

  the people i was talking to a a good [TS]

  friend the other day and she was time at [TS]

  her job she's like well the CEO doesn't [TS]

  he's not really a visionary and I said [TS]

  how many people work at your company and [TS]

  she said 25 and I said and you guys have [TS]

  a CEO like when I was coming up in the [TS]

  world a company that had 25 employees [TS]

  maybe had a president and that President [TS]

  was also the founder but the world we're [TS]

  living in now your company of 25 people [TS]

  has us as a board of directors a CEO CFO [TS]

  a CTO and then however many [TS]

  vice-presidents and then however many [TS]

  managers does your erectors does your [TS]

  business have any employees who um and [TS]

  that the fact that that that her company [TS]

  has a/c CEO who is 45 years old and is [TS]

  you know like a guy running his own come [TS]

  running a company for the first time you [TS]

  know is like the [TS]

  the expertise that he has on offer or [TS]

  like the talents that he is really [TS]

  applying a lot of those talents are just [TS]

  like a primarily in in having the foot [TS]

  spa to call himself a CEO huh [TS]

  um and that's you know that is like the [TS]

  that's a that's a a an emblem of the age [TS]

  could it's one of the few kinds of jobs [TS]

  that were you know this is really bad [TS]

  know where you can be you can get really [TS]

  far potentially really fast and still be [TS]

  completely self-deluded you could be [TS]

  virtually psychotic and that might [TS]

  actually improve your chances because [TS]

  you're one of those people who goes no I [TS]

  refuse to fail i refused to have [TS]

  anything except like world-changing [TS]

  success with this and when I hear that [TS]

  I'm like man failure is always an option [TS]

  like a rocket always be thinking about [TS]

  that because you make dumb decisions if [TS]

  you think you can't fail [TS]

  yeah right well i'm not and that but the [TS]

  thing is that the business climate now [TS]

  for a lot of these people is like I have [TS]

  no interest in making this a viable [TS]

  business i want to sell this company [TS]

  growth hacking growth bad so so I as I [TS]

  look around the world and and and and [TS]

  and i definitely felt this about that [TS]

  television show [TS]

  it's like there are people who make a [TS]

  lot of sense telling me that well or [TS]

  rather asking me the with a knowing I [TS]

  who's gonna watch your show and they [TS]

  know the answer and the answer is nobody [TS]

  or the answer is not enough people to [TS]

  sell ads to make it profitable and i'm [TS]

  sitting on the other side saying you [TS]

  know you have this special knowledge of [TS]

  who watches things and you're using that [TS]

  special knowledge to say it's him that [TS]

  you know and invariably the people say i [TS]

  would love that show but nobody's gonna [TS]

  watch it and so what they're saying is [TS]

  the kind of the old classic standby like [TS]

  it would be we could make a better world [TS]

  if only people weren't so dumb [TS]

  and since they are we can't make a [TS]

  better world we can only give them what [TS]

  they want to buy and so we're so those [TS]

  of us who know that things could be [TS]

  better are hamstrung by the fact that we [TS]

  can't know we can't make things better [TS]

  and it's the you know it's the dark side [TS]

  of letting the market economy be the [TS]

  Church of of your thinking huh where [TS]

  it's like yeah we could make amazing [TS]

  things we could make we can make [TS]

  beautiful television we can make [TS]

  television that was uh you know that was [TS]

  for the ages but sadly no one would buy [TS]

  it and so there's no point in making it [TS]

  anyway thanks for coming [TS]

  we're gonna go back to our you know a [TS]

  toddler t toddlers and tiaras and you [TS]

  see the same thing also in city [TS]

  government except people aren't quite so [TS]

  Craven but you do you know you go into [TS]

  city government you say hey there [TS]

  there's a way to do this we could you [TS]

  know we can build affordable housing for [TS]

  middle-class families and people go we [TS]

  could but not only we could have all I [TS]

  would love to be able to do that but [TS]

  what is that ok that's the interesting [TS]

  thing about what you're saying some ways [TS]

  yeah I want that too [TS]

  I want exactly what you want but what my [TS]

  job is to sit here and tell you that the [TS]

  realities don't allow it and so thanks [TS]

  for coming sorry that we couldn't make a [TS]

  better world for you know if you have [TS]

  another idea [TS]

  that's dumber be sure to call us stopped [TS]

  because we really like where you're [TS]

  coming from [TS]

  uh-huh and that you know and ultimately [TS]

  that is that it is an argument of them [TS]

  of the market [TS]

  um and you and all the examples where [TS]

  you say well somebody made this thing [TS]

  that nobody thought you know that nobody [TS]

  thought anybody wanted and that [TS]

  everybody wanted it and people go yeah [TS]

  but not that doesn't happen very often [TS]

  and that guy was something like it [TS]

  that's not good for shareholders it's [TS]

  not good for shareholders you know like [TS]

  every once in awhile sure there's a [TS]

  there's a revolution and everybody's [TS]

  thinking every once in a while the [TS]

  strokes come along and [TS]

  sound just like Iggy and the Stooges and [TS]

  nobody knew that that's what they wanted [TS]

  right then [TS]

  nobody in nobody in the year 2000 said [TS]

  you know what I would like a young cute [TS]

  less abrasive Iggy and the Stooges that [TS]

  sounds kind of like the velvet [TS]

  underground to it could you make that [TS]

  and then these kids made it and for a [TS]

  year all anybody want to listen to is [TS]

  that first strokes record and you go wow [TS]

  that was a thing that i mean i was i was [TS]

  in the process of making a record during [TS]

  those same months and never occurred to [TS]

  me to make a you know or two to make a [TS]

  record that sounded exactly like Joy [TS]

  Division you can't you can't I mean you [TS]

  guys remember that you can never [TS]

  replicate the timing and circumstances [TS]

  that my friend friend night junkie when [TS]

  I did a panel itself myself West few [TS]

  years ago and the fries were using is [TS]

  like I am and I you know it's not a [TS]

  question of like how you're going to be [TS]

  as our glass says is how you're going to [TS]

  be Ted Koppel like how are you going to [TS]

  be who you are like you can't replicate [TS]

  the the so again so obvious but you [TS]

  can't replicate the circumstances and [TS]

  the timing it was never a sure bet that [TS]

  anything was ever gonna happen ever [TS]

  really right if you're really realistic [TS]

  about it what you want you don't want to [TS]

  replicate what somebody didn't go i'm [TS]

  gonna be the X of Y well no I mean to [TS]

  become the XY you have to have the same [TS]

  kind of the the similarities in the [TS]

  spirit week I think we've talked about [TS]

  this a million times but you don't want [TS]

  to go replicate steve jobs by like you [TS]

  know being mean to people like that's [TS]

  not on the face of it gonna be super [TS]

  useful [TS]

  that's the wrong note to take from that [TS]

  career yeah well and that's the you're [TS]

  absolutely right to say that nothing is [TS]

  ever inevitable because if it if it were [TS]

  everybody would've done it everybody [TS]

  would have done it fantastically [TS]

  time-travel paradox via the music [TS]

  business is full of people trying to put [TS]

  the you know put the formula to work who [TS]

  and say okay here comes the next band [TS]

  that you are going to love everybody and [TS]

  then the next Bank of loans like nobody [TS]

  gives a fuck yeah but there are put it [TS]

  but but i cannot succumb to the idea [TS]

  that though that the the [TS]

  Leigh intellectual can't ever engage [TS]

  with the world in any way other than [TS]

  just writing opinion pieces for the [TS]

  local newspaper you know like they're [TS]

  that the Oracle just just just donating [TS]

  and just leaving positive comments that [TS]

  your your role in this is to participate [TS]

  in the machine that we've all agreed [TS]

  can't be changed like like we need to we [TS]

  need we are so siloed and so much a [TS]

  culture of the cult of expertise and [TS]

  some of those things absolutely require [TS]

  expertise like pediatric brain surgery [TS]

  and even i would argue referring to ben [TS]

  Carson are you is that is that an [TS]

  unintentional reference or do you know [TS]

  what you're saying they're uh what how [TS]

  is that what I'm just trying to function [TS]

  say that no I i I'm holding this is not [TS]

  relevant but I i went to the wikipedia [TS]

  page for Republican presidential [TS]

  candidates and at the current rate the [TS]

  rate of the of sunday today's Monday as [TS]

  we record this and tuesday you have one [TS]

  one person announce me third we have [TS]

  another announcement forth and the third [TS]

  is expected to announce on on May fifth [TS]

  and Carson the guy from a third author [TS]

  and former director of pediatric [TS]

  neurosurgery for Johns Hopkins is that [TS]

  there is he holds some very strange view [TS]

  spend Carson's about how the world the [TS]

  world shakes out but he is an expert [TS]

  pediatric brain surgeon for society did [TS]

  you really I don't know what I was an [TS]

  intentional [TS]

  it's a it's quite all right there are [TS]

  you know I'm looking for role models [TS]

  everywhere million stories in The Naked [TS]

  City yeah the guy that really knows how [TS]

  to adjust the the boat the Quadrajet [TS]

  carburetor the Rochester Quadrajet [TS]

  carburetor on my truck has a kind of [TS]

  expertise that is akin to restoring a [TS]

  Stradivarius but there are lots of other [TS]

  jobs and I really do feel like CEO of a [TS]

  25-person company is one of those jobs [TS]

  that almost anybody could do [TS]

  and I know that that it you know i know [TS]

  that that is that's going to get that [TS]

  some people mad but a specially growth [TS]

  hackers just those people are wrong but [TS]

  you know like every single friend i have [TS]

  could be the CEO of a 25-person company [TS]

  every single one of them because you [TS]

  takes awhile to figure out how what the [TS]

  company makes and then it takes awhile [TS]

  to figure out where the company sits in [TS]

  the in the landscape and then you need [TS]

  to start figuring out how the company [TS]

  can do better and those yeah and and [TS]

  that learning process what is the [TS]

  company make where does the company sit [TS]

  that stuff should not be that difficult [TS]

  for a firm or normally intelligent [TS]

  person to figure out and then we're how [TS]

  does this company get better and if this [TS]

  company needs to grow to get better then [TS]

  that's one direction and if this company [TS]

  does not need to grow but just needs to [TS]

  get better that's another solution but [TS]

  any reasonably intelligent person can [TS]

  address that step set of circumstances [TS]

  and you know and move forward in an [TS]

  interesting way anybody that I know to [TS]

  be the CEO of a of a 40,000 person [TS]

  company at that point you are you have [TS]

  to be a you have to be really good at [TS]

  and flowcharts I mean you know yet you [TS]

  don't have so many complementary skills [TS]

  that are always evolving and you have [TS]

  and the primarily are the primary one [TS]

  would be had know how to hire good [TS]

  people who write the to manage your [TS]

  divisions but 25 people working on a on [TS]

  a project if you are good if you're a [TS]

  good person and not a not a megalomaniac [TS]

  you should be able to handle that [TS]

  that project it's not it's not rocket [TS]

  science [TS]

  what about the part you said something [TS]

  earlier about that feeling of like we're [TS]

  getting up in the morning thing of like [TS]

  climbing the mountain and hoping there's [TS]

  something on the ridge is there [TS]

  something to be said for the people who [TS]

  are able to motivate people sight unseen [TS]

  on some kind of a goal that that seems [TS]

  ridiculous or non-existent [TS]

  that's not just delusional right how do [TS]

  you mean motivate people so if you start [TS]

  up let's say let's say you're gonna [TS]

  start up in boy i'm so glad we're [TS]

  finally talking about startups but if [TS]

  let's say you're at a growing company [TS]

  let's just say a small growing company a [TS]

  small growing company maybe save 25 [TS]

  people may be in the bay area got [TS]

  everybody's been producing something [TS]

  sorry I said anything I already hate [TS]

  this topic [TS]

  no but I mean you're there is it seems [TS]

  like there's something to be said for [TS]

  like you know in addition to all the [TS]

  kind of the the change in the stress and [TS]

  dealing with the funding and all that [TS]

  kind of stuff that ability to maintain [TS]

  the confidence of people who could very [TS]

  easily get a job anywhere else it seems [TS]

  like that would take a certain I could [TS]

  see that taking a special kind of skill [TS]

  even with up to 25 people because you [TS]

  know you're kind of showing your own [TS]

  credibility the company's credibility [TS]

  everything's changing all the time you [TS]

  know what I mean maybe I watch too much [TS]

  silicon valley but but that seems like [TS]

  that seems like like that is kind of a [TS]

  special thing to be able to do you have [TS]

  to have a high level of as we sandy you [TS]

  know Constitution charisma be able to [TS]

  pull that off even if you're young [TS]

  my sense is that that now that the [TS]

  business climate it does require those [TS]

  things because the because its a game [TS]

  it's all about you know grow fast fill a [TS]

  niche niche keep nimble who you know [TS]

  sell hi everybody gets rich everyone is [TS]

  motivated in that business by the [TS]

  possibility the very real possibility [TS]

  that 27 years old they're gonna be like [TS]

  astoundingly rich all of a sudden one [TS]

  day and that's so different from from [TS]

  actual business like you when you think [TS]

  about limes a really good point from [TS]

  home from from being just like for [TS]

  example if you've got a business that [TS]

  maybe public but has been like operated [TS]

  by a family like just that disk that [TS]

  feeling of like how do I make sure I not [TS]

  screw up Mike what my what my mother and [TS]

  my father and my grandparents like what [TS]

  they do I mean that constant feeling of [TS]

  like they need something great now it's [TS]

  up to me to screw it up when you think [TS]

  about I mean there are people in our [TS]

  world now who are practicing a different [TS]

  kind of business right the guys that [TS]

  start a company that makes bicycles and [TS]

  they're making they've improved their [TS]

  design and they're making a better [TS]

  bicycle and they're not thinking i'm [TS]

  gonna sell this bicycle company [TS]

  nice win who i'm not i'm gonna get a [TS]

  gonna make a million dollars they are [TS]

  legitimately like reflecting on the [TS]

  world as it is insane i'm gonna go back [TS]

  to doing something like manufacturing [TS]

  bicycles and that's going to be my peace [TS]

  of mind and I'm gonna have a quality of [TS]

  life and maybe there's a quality [TS]

  differentiator in the bikes new charge [TS]

  more [TS]

  Yeah right there generating a [TS]

  sustainable business based on something [TS]

  that you care a lot about are good at [TS]

  and that is though that is the [TS]

  old-fashioned way of looking at business [TS]

  where you're not you know where the [TS]

  product is the entire story and [TS]

  everything else in your business that is [TS]

  designed to ward the product and the end [TS]

  and you know efficiencies are there eee [TS]

  eee try and make it profitable so that [TS]

  everybody can make a living wage but the [TS]

  product tells the story and it [TS]

  increasingly this other style of [TS]

  business where it's like wow the product [TS]

  sure I mean wewe haven't even really [TS]

  decided what the product is but we have [TS]

  only knows where growth hacking it you [TS]

  know but we have seven different layers [TS]

  of like sea level management and one of [TS]

  these day and already we're getting [TS]

  looked at by these people who are [TS]

  thinking about you know flushing us with [TS]

  cash and you know maybe we'll make an [TS]

  app that makes a bong when it turns off [TS]

  maybe we'll make a a speaker that you [TS]

  can suction cup to your chest like there [TS]

  are a lot of things we could be building [TS]

  we haven't quite figured that out and [TS]

  that style of business is you know it's [TS]

  like Bitcoin farming it's it's something [TS]

  that maybe is going to make you rich and [TS]

  it it takes up a lot of your day and [TS]

  like you say it requires that you be [TS]

  charismatic and that you convince people [TS]

  but it isn't about really like making [TS]

  anything that helps anybody or making [TS]

  anything at all in some cases that's an [TS]

  interesting edge case though because [TS]

  talking about motivation in some ways [TS]

  though even though the motivation is to [TS]

  me you know insane or or you know nearly [TS]

  magical nom f it is one thing most the [TS]

  players an industry to share motivation [TS]

  which is like I want all the money as [TS]

  fast as possible i want all the money as [TS]

  well [TS]

  and it's the vc's that are getting you [TS]

  know nine ninety percent failure rates [TS]

  because of the you know ten percent that [TS]

  will pay off like they know they're not [TS]

  doing that because they like you they [TS]

  are doing that because they think [TS]

  they're going to make a ton of money [TS]

  from you right and that is why like [TS]

  libertarianism is the political a like [TS]

  realm of choice for a lot of those [TS]

  people because they don't you know [TS]

  because when they do hit the numbers [TS]

  when the money does come pouring in [TS]

  they really do believe that they made it [TS]

  out of thin air and that they don't know [TS]

  anybody that they didn't you know that [TS]

  they're not part of a community that [TS]

  they're part of it [TS]

  this genius level tier of of of Bitcoin [TS]

  farmers and and so you know I'm where [TS]

  we're seeing it in Seattle like Jeff [TS]

  Bezos really does believe that I guess [TS]

  the streets were already there when he [TS]

  got here so grandfathered in [TS]

  yeah so he doesn't really have a sense [TS]

  of how they got put there or how they [TS]

  are maintained but he doesn't care like [TS]

  the money he's making is because he was [TS]

  because he's a genius [TS]

  Cassie question related to that as far [TS]

  as how the campaign is going on the [TS]

  people when you talk to people and I'm [TS]

  have to imagine there are some people [TS]

  who are like this is not plausible you [TS]

  don't have the experience whatever like [TS]

  who the people you find most interesting [TS]

  in terms of believing in what you're [TS]

  doing [TS]

  apart from just the the relief of having [TS]

  somebody go i think that's that's doable [TS]

  and that's a good idea and i would [TS]

  support that [TS]

  who do you think of the most interesting [TS]

  or surprising people lining up to go [TS]

  yeah this is a terrific idea we've got [TS]

  to do this [TS]

  what's really cool is that you know that [TS]

  initial sense of like well what the [TS]

  guitar player wants to be on City [TS]

  Council he doesn't have the experience [TS]

  necessary we're the weird rock candidate [TS]

  yeah that guy [TS]

  it was doing a show at the rendezvous [TS]

  last year wants to be off on the City [TS]

  Council he doesn't have the experience [TS]

  and invariably when I sit with one of [TS]

  those people and talk to them for a very [TS]

  short amount of time they're like oh you [TS]

  are absolutely a great candidate for [TS]

  this job and you you can't you can [TS]

  absolutely do this and then they leaned [TS]

  in and they go but here's what you need [TS]

  to know and then they start telling me a [TS]

  similar thing to the TV producer like [TS]

  you really need to dumb this down you [TS]

  hear the the words they use are too big [TS]

  to spend a lot of time a really like the [TS]

  the word that i keep hearing his I da [TS]

  ting you keep I da ting with these [TS]

  thoughts storms and you really need to [TS]

  just have the three takeaways the bullet [TS]

  points the the quick and dirty and I'm [TS]

  wreck and and I've been fighting it for [TS]

  weeks [TS]

  like I don't think in bullet points and [TS]

  talking points I don't want to do it I'd [TS]

  I resistant and lately I've been hearing [TS]

  more new because i'm meeting a lot of [TS]

  people you know I've been i spent all [TS]

  last week calling cold-calling lawyers [TS]

  like powerful lawyers in town saying hi [TS]

  I'm John rock I'm running for City [TS]

  Council you're a big-shot lawyer a [TS]

  big-shot developer and I need to talk to [TS]

  you on the phone I need you to have [TS]

  heard my voice I need you to know my [TS]

  name and I need to hear from you what [TS]

  you think the problems facing the [TS]

  bigshot lawyers and developers are in [TS]

  town so that I don't go into this [TS]

  gladiator contest unarmed and you know [TS]

  and they live it and they talk to me for [TS]

  a little while they're like oh you you [TS]

  are completely viable you know their [TS]

  initial responses like who [TS]

  what you're the artist and then we [TS]

  talked for a while and they're like all [TS]

  right well and then so then they get [TS]

  their voices get softer and they leaned [TS]

  in and they say listen you need that you [TS]

  need the bullet points like you can you [TS]

  can you can talk id8 all you want in in [TS]

  between but you need to start every [TS]

  conversation with your three bullet [TS]

  points and every conversation with it [TS]

  because that's all anybody's going to [TS]

  remember [TS]

  Wow and somebody said to me the other [TS]

  day they were like it's like the chorus [TS]

  of a song can you get this through your [TS]

  head [TS]

  nobody remembers the verse everybody [TS]

  sings the chorus and I'm like the [TS]

  fucking chorus of the song good example [TS]

  let's see and ironically enough it is a [TS]

  perfect example of exactly what they're [TS]

  advising them take something that is [TS]

  really really difficult to understand [TS]

  let alone do and turn into something [TS]

  anybody kid especially somebody who's a [TS]

  writer can instantly understand [TS]

  instantly understand it and repeat over [TS]

  and over and then when somebody's on the [TS]

  bus and they're like I'm voting for John [TS]

  Roderick and the person next time goes [TS]

  what's he stand for [TS]

  they go ooh child isn't going to get any [TS]

  easier you know like they sing the [TS]

  chorus and then the person sitting next [TS]

  to him on the bus that's never gonna [TS]

  think about it again when the ballot [TS]

  comes they're like oh that's right that [TS]

  guy that sings ooh child although for [TS]

  him and so that part of the thing is is [TS]

  blowing my mind [TS]

  but-but-but-but did describing that way [TS]

  make it seem more palatable it still is [TS]

  against my nature even somebody even as [TS]

  someone who has written a book of tweets [TS]

  i love to communicate in a hundred and [TS]

  forty characters but when somebody says [TS]

  what's your solution to the housing [TS]

  problem huh to give them a hundred and [TS]

  forty character response is an athlete [TS]

  to me right i want to talk about how the [TS]

  housing problem is too complicated to [TS]

  solve with the tweet but and they are [TS]

  receptive to hearing that but they want [TS]

  to hear the tweet also yeah and so that [TS]

  has been you know I've been talking to a [TS]

  lot of experts and everybody is you know [TS]

  there's they're the people that i'm [TS]

  talking to that were the most dubious [TS]

  about it are starting to realize like oh [TS]

  this is possible and make obviously i'm [TS]

  reading and learning by leaps and bounds [TS]

  and so I do it every week encounter a [TS]

  kind of moment where it's like I am [TS]

  learning and up an entirely new [TS]

  profession and also the language of it [TS]

  so it's like I'm it's like i'm studying [TS]

  engineering and I'm also learning all [TS]

  day there was very well put right [TS]

  because they're because my engine [TS]

  in schools in France yeah and lakes and [TS]

  and yet [TS]

  like I I'm enjoying every step of that [TS]

  process and there are lots of places [TS]

  along the way where where I realized [TS]

  that the culture in seattle politics [TS]

  especially is traditionally very [TS]

  incremental there's a lot of lip service [TS]

  liberalism where people are just like [TS]

  course i'm a liberal look at this I [TS]

  voted for this I voted for that it's [TS]

  like right none of those were [TS]

  imaginative you never stuck your neck [TS]

  out no one ever took a risk it's just [TS]

  you're just plodding along do it's [TS]

  interesting it's almost like being a [TS]

  YouTube fan we go I've always been a [TS]

  huge fan i remember liking them a lot [TS]

  and never occurred to me to not be a [TS]

  youtube fan or to really question you [TS]

  know what I mean when I got back on [TS]

  youtube but it's like you start to think [TS]

  of yourself as a long time before I want [TS]

  i'm still I think i would personally [TS]

  like the guys in rem but i don't know [TS]

  that many of their music like I used to [TS]

  be like well the date is the date [TS]

  Matthew story right now that's at some [TS]

  points a long long time ago [TS]

  gather round children the first time you [TS]

  heard the first time people heard a Dave [TS]

  Matthews song they're like huh that's an [TS]

  interesting vocal style and that's an [TS]

  interesting song or two and he built a a [TS]

  massive cultural movement by not ever [TS]

  changing that even a little bit who [TS]

  write he never went he never picked up [TS]

  an electric guitar he never made a scar [TS]

  record he never he never changed his [TS]

  name and put on a and animated and grew [TS]

  a soul patch and made a grunge album [TS]

  that was he never forgot about that [TS]

  you know what I mean like a like Taylor [TS]

  Swift will use to be a country star [TS]

  she's not anymore nobody even remembers [TS]

  that she was really limited but but a [TS]

  Dave Matthews just keeps on keeping on [TS]

  and i don't know how many records he's [TS]

  made and I don't know if you could take [TS]

  if you took a song off the latest one [TS]

  and it's off the first one and put them [TS]

  back to back i think they would sound [TS]

  like they belong in the same not only in [TS]

  the same candidate on the same album [TS]

  to your point though and I don't know [TS]

  anything about Dave Matthews I don't [TS]

  mean to sound like I'm disparaging it i [TS]

  just know he's got that big file [TS]

  unemployment goes yeah but-but-but in [TS]

  your analogy I think you're onto this [TS]

  does something interesting which is you [TS]

  say like well I i never really paused to [TS]

  the one who like I was saying I really [TS]

  paused at any point to consider how much [TS]

  I really am still a fan but whatever of [TS]

  old stuff for the new stuff but I also [TS]

  that really that ultimately means that i [TS]

  have not fully processed the new [TS]

  information in order to realize that I'm [TS]

  actually way more into it or that i'm [TS]

  actually i may be thinking i should be [TS]

  able to listen to someone else because [TS]

  it's very comfortable very comfortable [TS]

  to say like oh this is I have every [TS]

  confidence that I'm a sloan family I [TS]

  haven't listened to that many new Sloan [TS]

  albums and been super into them since [TS]

  like 2001 yeah it's honestly I'm not [TS]

  again there's always that like cheap [TS]

  trick they've got a great song on every [TS]

  record but I hadn't been bananas over a [TS]

  new album of theirs in a long time and [TS]

  even when I kinda IE i was still kinda [TS]

  like I'm really into Sloan so i must [TS]

  love this record even if I didn't and [TS]

  p.m. at at that is exactly what happens [TS]

  to people in their political process [TS]

  they're like this is how it works [TS]

  this is the tempo at which it moves [TS]

  these are the people to whom we entrust [TS]

  this job and so change cannot possibly [TS]

  come any faster than this [TS]

  obviously these projects take years and [TS]

  years of contentious you know budget [TS]

  disagreements to even begin and and we [TS]

  just sort of settle into this like well [TS]

  this is I mean I've been a a business [TS]

  loan fan for years and I'm just I guess [TS]

  I'm still Sloan fan like the that [TS]

  there's no the the energy that is [TS]

  required of you as a fan or as a citizen [TS]

  just sort of herbs and you just you just [TS]

  coast and then every once in a while [TS]

  something comes along and forces you to [TS]

  to get excited or really makes [TS]

  everything different all of a sudden [TS]

  right and you know either make that [TS]

  transition or you don't [TS]

  but also with the width and some private [TS]

  stating the obvious but also with with [TS]

  the political part of what you're [TS]

  describing just to put a slightly finer [TS]

  point on it it is you're talking about [TS]

  the difference between how you like to [TS]

  think about yours [TS]

  self versus how you think people should [TS]

  cover which are so different it's one [TS]

  thing to go you know I I don't know I've [TS]

  always considered myself in rem families [TS]

  to buy the shirts like that doesn't [TS]

  really have like a huge impact but it's [TS]

  just there's something that's so [TS]

  comforting about night I'm the sort of [TS]

  person I'm a Dave Matthews sort of [TS]

  person I'm not a metallica sort of [TS]

  person or whatever and i think but but [TS]

  you know I'm saying like it isn't like [TS]

  you're really pausing to think about on [TS]

  the one hand like do I really like their [TS]

  new stuff but maybe maybe further to the [TS]

  point like do I really like their old [TS]

  stuff that much still is that okay like [TS]

  do you really want the Pixies to reunite [TS]

  because the Pixies today are going to [TS]

  make MIT Pixies are going to make music [TS]

  that's very different probably and if [TS]

  it's not then is that leap forward for [TS]

  them when Rush started changing i got [TS]

  really pissed when they are subdivisions [TS]

  I was like this is not what rush it [TS]

  sound like roll the bones and so you [TS]

  become that guy like me in rem like who [TS]

  really liked everything to live for the [TS]

  letters pageant you know and that's what [TS]

  and I think with you know with [TS]

  government like there's a there's a real [TS]

  tendency for people to say of course I [TS]

  believe that you know of course I [TS]

  believe x of course I believe that that [TS]

  we should house the homeless or of [TS]

  course I believe that we should regulate [TS]

  the banks or of course I believe you [TS]

  know of course but it's very hard to do [TS]

  those things got that of course has so [TS]

  much wrapped up in if you really think [TS]

  about it yeah right it's really it's [TS]

  really powerful in a not very good way [TS]

  of course of course i'd love to change [TS]

  like he said of course i'd love to [TS]

  change this industry right call me back [TS]

  if you've ever got something better for [TS]

  a TV show exactly right of is not of [TS]

  course it's not of course enough that [TS]

  i'm actually going to invest in it its [TS]

  of course enough that agrees with my [TS]

  general compartment about life right of [TS]

  course black lives matter but boy you [TS]

  know well what what are they really [TS]

  asking John all lives matter a right and [TS]

  it's it's just like that of course [TS]

  allows people to say of course i'm a [TS]

  liberal or of course I'm a a politically [TS]

  active or of course it makes you sound [TS]

  very same [TS]

  main reason and and realistic that's [TS]

  right really sound realistic as you're [TS]

  not going well you know because again we [TS]

  were you always almost always talking [TS]

  about your talk about a shifter and [TS]

  attention or you're talking about a [TS]

  change in not priorities but sacrifice [TS]

  like what are we willing to spend on [TS]

  this in order to get this thing made [TS]

  what do we not spend money and time on [TS]

  which is a huge difference between like [TS]

  an ideal world we'd all get to live in [TS]

  cosplay Pinocchio or whatever like you [TS]

  come up with these these bananas things [TS]

  and these and and all the saner heads [TS]

  all the people who are like well now [TS]

  hold on just a second there's a whole [TS]

  you know there's a budgeting process and [TS]

  you know I know this is going to be too [TS]

  disruptive you know we can't even if [TS]

  there are aliens living under the Arctic [TS]

  Ocean and they are controlling our [TS]

  one-world government can't tell [TS]

  everybody about it we have to go slow [TS]

  it would freak people out and even if [TS]

  that's maybe a bad example as a gift was [TS]

  speaking as a canada is it is it haha i [TS]

  sound very realistic to me but the you [TS]

  know that that idea not the idea but the [TS]

  pose of of course i agree with you but I [TS]

  am scene and we need to go slowly like [TS]

  you're talking like you're talking to a [TS]

  child and that is so much of what gets [TS]

  done so much of the politics at the [TS]

  local level at the at the national level [TS]

  is is done in that in that voice of like [TS]

  it would it's gonna be like to really [TS]

  reform the banks is going to be too hard [TS]

  it just is so of course i want to call [TS]

  me back when you have a dumber idea for [TS]

  a television show and he gotta take your [TS]

  time [TS]

  sometimes sometimes you have to say no [TS]

  fuck you like it's and at you know [TS]

  follow me to the kid c and the and the [TS]

  excitement of me of running for office [TS]

  right now is that [TS]

  it feels it feels like this is that the [TS]

  time in so many levels to just say no no [TS]

  I mean I i said this the other day [TS]

  leaving my house though the market has [TS]

  informed me that my house which was 10 [TS]

  years ago worth 200 thousand dollars and [TS]

  then seven years ago was worth four [TS]

  hundred thousand dollars and then five [TS]

  years ago was worth 200 thousand dollars [TS]

  again and now it's worth four hundred [TS]

  thousand dollars again and you're [TS]

  telling me that that is like the [TS]

  sensible a like the market is the [TS]

  adjudicator a lot obviously you've been [TS]

  doing something right haha you've added [TS]

  that value just by being there there I [TS]

  wasn't really smart and that and the [TS]

  house with didn't have any value and [TS]

  then add a lot of don't get a while [TS]

  there around 2008 you're really fucking [TS]

  stupid but now you've got a wire get [TS]

  John you are you gotta be super smart [TS]

  now and it's basically like I'm like [TS]

  playing roulette and that is what but [TS]

  none of us and we all go like that's [TS]

  crazy but what can you do about it [TS]

  it's the market it's that it is the [TS]

  churches are one true God and the market [TS]

  just tells us and then we end the market [TS]

  isn't something that's not one guy [TS]

  it's it's the whole it's everybody and [TS]

  we just all decide and the feeling is [TS]

  that you're not naive you're you you're [TS]

  you're not naive enough to I don't think [TS]

  your it would take a lot of naivete to [TS]

  go I'm gonna come in and shake [TS]

  everything up and it'll be really easy [TS]

  and then how do you know what's your [TS]

  internal barometer for knowing which [TS]

  furniture can still be moved around [TS]

  which which shouldn't be tampered with [TS]

  and how do you decide between five [TS]

  things that could change potentially [TS]

  that's a big question pick whatever part [TS]

  you want but you know it seems like to [TS]

  go into this you don't be a dummy [TS]

  you don't just going to go all you know [TS]

  I assume that i can change the entire [TS]

  way politics works right what are the [TS]

  parts where you go [TS]

  I'm just gonna have to i'm just gonna [TS]

  have to live with that because that's [TS]

  that part is not going to change [TS]

  I mean at every step of the way they are [TS]

  vested interests and there are people [TS]

  that are going to say you can't do that [TS]

  and there's and the thing is it when you [TS]

  talk about a city government right [TS]

  there the city is also inside of a [TS]

  county and the county is inside of a [TS]

  state and the state is inside of a of [TS]

  the country and all of those other [TS]

  jurisdictions also have laws that apply [TS]

  in effect the city and you can't just [TS]

  say like i'm going to change the state [TS]

  law out stuff that's going to happen [TS]

  above your pay grade [TS]

  you know where where where initially [TS]

  when i first started talking about the [TS]

  police I was like what the police should [TS]

  live in the neighborhoods they police [TS]

  that seems like a no-brainer that's kind [TS]

  of like the old times right when the guy [TS]

  in Chicago swing is billy club walking [TS]

  down the street in it in his own [TS]

  neighborhood [TS]

  well then i started reading up on and I [TS]

  learned a few things one the state of [TS]

  Washington prohibits municipalities from [TS]

  requiring that the their officers live [TS]

  in their neighborhood you're kidding [TS]

  no because that was there was a time [TS]

  when the police union said that's unfair [TS]

  and you know and some of those cases [TS]

  probably went all the way to the Supreme [TS]

  Court you can't force people to live a [TS]

  certain place i had a conversation the [TS]

  other day with a dats cool really cool [TS]

  guy really cool kids they seem at the [TS]

  comic store all the time they're they're [TS]

  very cool and he just kind of offered up [TS]

  out of nowhere that oh no I we know I [TS]

  would never he's like I work in Xyz city [TS]

  I live in San Francisco like I would use [TS]

  your cop cop living in the same town [TS]

  that he works in it was kind of a [TS]

  spider-man thing it's like it wouldn't [TS]

  be safe he feels like it's not safe to [TS]

  live where you work right and that have [TS]

  you heard that I think that's very [TS]

  interesting [TS]

  that's crazy on the face of it but I but [TS]

  you know what [TS]

  what happened was the police said look [TS]

  we can't we're not making very much [TS]

  money and we can't afford to live in the [TS]

  in the city or you know there are a lot [TS]

  of arguments why you can't say if you [TS]

  want to if you want to work here you [TS]

  have to live in this neighborhood or [TS]

  something so but the state but that but [TS]

  they took that to the state the state [TS]

  made a loss so now the city can't [TS]

  require that well then i started reading [TS]

  you know reading up on the topic turns [TS]

  out they've done studies of a of lots of [TS]

  municipalities some of them do have [TS]

  rules that the police have to live in [TS]

  the city [TS]

  some of them don't and the cities that [TS]

  have that require their police to live [TS]

  in the city do not have any better [TS]

  police outcomes in some cases too [TS]

  radically worse police outcome oh [TS]

  interesting wow what it turned out was [TS]

  that the biggest factor for improving [TS]

  your police is high-quality training of [TS]

  your police ideally in a transparent [TS]

  glass building in the middle of town [TS]

  right without exercise your land that's [TS]

  right and then they run through the [TS]

  streets in a sweat say police trainee [TS]

  and they're sweeping sweeping sweeping [TS]

  but but the but you know height right [TS]

  high quality training is where is where [TS]

  you get good police and then you go oh [TS]

  duh right of course high-quality [TS]

  training it was matter where they live [TS]

  if they're done well trained [TS]

  that's right and so you know the [TS]

  evilution of those of the evolution of [TS]

  my thought at least on that matter was [TS]

  really affected by the fact that I came [TS]

  up against state law which was like yeah [TS]

  well we've already we've already been [TS]

  through this and if you want to go to [TS]

  the state if you want to if you want to [TS]

  propose a law and take it to the state [TS]

  and say we need to require the police to [TS]

  live in our cities you can go down that [TS]

  rabbit hole and if you win you win and [TS]

  if you lose you lose but our what do you [TS]

  want do you want the symbolic victory of [TS]

  rat do you want to be able to say that I [TS]

  believe that that is going to work or or [TS]

  or its first all that sounds very wise [TS]

  but it's also like you're like oh well [TS]

  you know guys I came back to think from [TS]

  a couple weeks ago I can't paint on this [TS]

  like this is this is a real tentpole of [TS]

  my campaign I can't change even my mind [TS]

  about this right but a little my [TS]

  dedication it doesn't matter what is [TS]

  right or wrong this is why I'm here i [TS]

  can read 25 studies about a thing but [TS]

  since I've gone out and said this [TS]

  already I can't change my mind on this [TS]

  going to make me look like a waffle and [TS]

  then that case expertise is getting in [TS]

  your way [TS]

  well yeah and the and here's gonna draw [TS]

  another if your schedule and the [TS]

  expectation that we have that [TS]

  politicians can't publicly change their [TS]

  mind and say I read some things I talked [TS]

  to some people that are smarter than me [TS]

  about this now i have a different [TS]

  opinion about it and the new thing is [TS]

  actually within our ability to do which [TS]

  is to which is to require that our [TS]

  police be trained at a high level and [TS]

  that is measurable [TS]

  and it doesn't require that we that we [TS]

  change state laws what it does requires [TS]

  that all the people out there who are [TS]

  chanting force the police to live in our [TS]

  neighborhoods you have to now convince [TS]

  them who were formerly your allies and [TS]

  you have every reason to believe that [TS]

  you've been corrupted by exposure to the [TS]

  elements that made that impossible in [TS]

  the past this one and so you go back to [TS]

  your original constituents to do you say [TS]

  look I guys i've learned some stuff I'd [TS]

  like you to read these things and [TS]

  they're like they feel like you're a [TS]

  sellout a trainer and you're like oh i [TS]

  know i am i what what I want is a better [TS]

  police department right same thing you [TS]

  want but now you've you know now you've [TS]

  crossed the spiritual line of [TS]

  challenging the thing that you all used [TS]

  to agree just sounded like the solution [TS]

  so that that process is like a process [TS]

  of maturation that requires that you [TS]

  have some integrity inside and a lot of [TS]

  people the clarity also the clarity of [TS]

  making make sure you fully understand it [TS]

  gets its good for you because you go [TS]

  that's I can learn anything and that was [TS]

  good but also have to really clarify the [TS]

  problem statement like you know I mean [TS]

  the way to frame that to yourself and to [TS]

  others will say like well you know it [TS]

  still matters for us to have a police [TS]

  force that does these following things [TS]

  and I've learned a thing here and what [TS]

  you discover is that some people what [TS]

  they really just want to do is punish [TS]

  the police or punish the developers or [TS]

  punish the banks and when you come you [TS]

  come back and you're like I looked into [TS]

  this more and it turns out that this [TS]

  thing that we thought was gonna really [TS]

  help us is like not as good a case as [TS]

  this other thing and it's a nightmare to [TS]

  administer yeah but people are like that [TS]

  one [TS]

  even though it doesn't work and is a [TS]

  nightmare to administer it is really [TS]

  expensive it punishes them more and [TS]

  that's what I want it turns out what I [TS]

  want is to shame and punish the book of [TS]

  the people that I think are the bad [TS]

  people thinking about you get so much [TS]

  attraction with people in certain [TS]

  quarters but that approach [TS]

  well I know that that's a [TS]

  typically who runs for public office of [TS]

  the people that stand up and say I am so [TS]

  mad at the cement contractors big cement [TS]

  fucking cement contractors are pouring [TS]

  shitty cement and we are going to punish [TS]

  them and the cement contractors are like [TS]

  well you know actually what we we like [TS]

  to pour get some into it's just the the [TS]

  contract stipulated that and they're [TS]

  just like shut up use contractors you're [TS]

  gonna suck a tuba cement on my watch [TS]

  when I'm the Big Cheese around here and [TS]

  you get this [TS]

  yeah and then you get city government [TS]

  where those you know those people go [TS]

  into office that's why you have all [TS]

  those conversations with people where [TS]

  they cut you know it's that Mitt Romney [TS]

  and the forty-six percent or whatever [TS]

  his gaffe was when he gets around people [TS]

  that he thinks he can talk to ya all of [TS]

  a sudden he's like all right we all know [TS]

  the deal right right right and that [TS]

  whole as soon as you are sitting in [TS]

  office in here and you're talking to [TS]

  some people like with the Clinton thumb [TS]

  pointing at them with the Clintons I'm [TS]

  going we need the proper number and then [TS]

  another group of people you're like [TS]

  really leaning in and casually sprint [TS]

  you know the real deal here right right [TS]

  alien no attention to the thumb living [TS]

  under the Arctic ice cap and they're [TS]

  running our government through and child [TS]

  trails but we're not going to say that [TS]

  to people and it's like all sorry that [TS]

  the bus boy was filming the whole thing [TS]

  and what up get no I believe my city [TS]

  council candidacy believes that we [TS]

  should close [TS]

  as the question member like your answer [TS]

  back [TS]